Patterico's Pontifications


A Comment from Deb Frisch

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 11:49 am

Deb Frisch tried to leave the following comment on my site. It was caught by the spam filter. (Recent background on her here, older background here.) It was left under the same IP address as the recent comments from her IP address on Jeff Goldstein’s and Ace’s site: It was left under the moniker “WW” (“Word Warrior”) with Frisch’s correct e-mail and URL.

It contains an interesting admission.

If foul language isn’t your bag, stop reading now. Here’s the comment (emphasis mine):

What do you folks suggest Jeff do? He currently appears to be shutting the site down until this is settled. I advise against that; I would ban her and ignore her. But, failing that, what other options does he have? (Please don’t suggest anything violent. I don’t want to head down that road.)
Yikes, Ace. By writing a dissertation about IP addresses and saying how you sure don’t want to head down the violent path, you are planting the idea in rightwing nutcases heads. By bringing up the issue of threatening violence, you are threatening me. I’m gonna sue your fucking ass too, fuck face. I’m calling the sheriff right not to tell them about your threatening death or injury to me in this post.

Where do you live, sissy boy? Or aren’t you “out of the closet” in terms of your real identity or physical location.

My name’s Deb, I live in eugene, oregon.

who are you? where do you live, hombre?

You ain’t an ace of spades – you’re a fucking two of clubs.

Boy am I gonna make a lot of money when I sue Pajamas Media. You’re a phony warrior for inciting wingnuts to further violence against me.

But I reckon the pissants who read your blog aren’t gonna try to off me. That’s what I need to talk to a lawyer about – the legacy I’ll leave for Satchel and the Cunt on the web if I die violently.

Time to take the threat of humiliating and mocking Jeff’s wife and child up a couple of notches so you fuck face phony warriors can hear me.

Here’s what I’ve got so far:

It’s a good thing the Count and Cunt (the count without the O!) didn’t have a girl – they would have named her Snatchel.


I haven’t written any porno story with Jeff, the cunt and Snatchel, yet. Porn’s not my thing. You keep pushing me, Ace, you and the other wingnuts, I’m gonna write a bedtime story bout the goldstein family of denver colorado.

you ain’t doing the baw no favor by pissing me off like this.

The longer this goes on, the more time I have to think of jokes I can’t resist telling about the Goldstein family in Denver, Colorado.

The more you threaten me to people interested in the use of IP addresses to prove the identity of ostensibly anonymous bloggers, the more damages I can collect from PM due to the physical threat angle, no matter how tiny it is.

This is great. I’m gonna sue Pajamas Media and shut the whole fetid swamp down!

Sorry. I got a bit hot under the collar there, Ace.



This appears to be an admission to making this comment at Jeff Goldstein’s site:

It is a good think you and the cunt didn’t have a girl. You woulda named her snatchel!!!!

Ba. Da. Boom. Phuque. Phace.

Turding wurd: similar

Your pissant progeny is going to be similar to you. Poor little mofo.

She’s making this too easy.

You read it here first, at Ace’s Pontifications.

P.S. So it’s quite clear, I do indeed urge everyone to leave her alone. The idea of physical violence against her or anyone is, of course, utterly repugnant — that goes without saying. But at this point, I don’t think she should even be contacted in any way. Jeff is working on this in his own way; let him do that without interference.

P.P.S. I have decided to restore the comment so that it can be preserved for evidentiary purposes. The link to the comment is here.

UPDATE: Loony Deb left a comment on Sean M.’s blog. She admits e-mailing him the “snatchel joke”:

yikes. you need to check your facts. email me if you are really interested in learning more of the facts leading up to the incident. It was conducted via email and Jeff published private emails I sent to him on his blog. I couldn’t resist emailing him with the snatchel joke after he rebuffed my request to give me the name of a more rational representative of him than he is.

Guess what the IP address of the comment was? Well, I didn’t want to guess, so I e-mailed Sean. Shockingly, it turned out to be Who would have guessed?

The evidence builds and builds and builds . . .

UPDATE x2: Thanks to Michelle Malkin for the link. Lord knows we’d rather not get traffic off of something like this; we’d rather just have it go away. But I think Jeff believes that it’s important to shine the light on Frisch, so I’m willing to do it.

79 Responses to “A Comment from Deb Frisch”

  1. […] admitted making some of the comments, in a comment she tried to leave on my site. Details here. (If you’re unfamiliar with this story, the recent background is here, and a fullerbackground is here.) […]

    Patterico’s Pontifications » Strange Comments from Eugene, Oregon (UPDATE: From Deb Frisch’s IP Address) (421107)

  2. On another site, I see this quote:

    “I admitted 90% of what I said”

    Mike (2978fd)

  3. Patterico, it’s time to ignore Ms. Frisch. She clearly thrives on the attention. If she actually believes what she’s writing, she’s psychotic. This is one troll that must not be fed.

    [I agree — generally. However, this comment has evidentiary value. That’s why I decided to restore it and publicize it. — P]

    Pablo (08e1e8)

  4. She shouldn’t be ignored. This woman’s comments are so bizarre and over the top and involve sex crimes with children that the courts (restraining order, lawsuit for damages for intentionally inflicting emotional distress) and law enforcement (for threatening language against a child no less… she’s even threatening to write and release into the public realm child pornography for God’s sake) is in order.

    Patterico, you’re a lawyer and an officer of the court albeit in a different jurisdiction (although she seemed to be making thinly veiled threats at you too)… don’t you feel honor bound to contact law enforcement in her jurisdiction and bring this all to their attention?

    That’s a question I’m sure you’ve pondered… just throwing it out there; it’s not an accusation or anything. You may already have done so.

    Chris (9824e6)

  5. Deb’s deranged, but one thing I’m happy about is that Patterico has not made this a left-right issue. Her illness – whatever the diagnosis may be – is not related to her political orientation, so right-wingers (like myself) shouldn’t crow about it, and lefties need not be defensive about it.

    She’s just nuts, and while I’m not sure compassion is called for here, I do hope someone in her life prevents her from harming herself. But given her morally repulsive conduct, it’s more important to prevent her from harming others.

    Brian (5f2dda)

  6. She should not be ignored. She should be punished. Nobody should be allowed to get away with such behavior. She can only get worse.

    anon (35e8a7)

  7. No, Pablo is right. Comments adressing her rants don’t do anything but feed her just as commenting on her site does. Filters like Patterico’s can be set up to capture her attempts to get notice and the contacts and IPs sent along to Jeff.This is Jeff’s show now. It’s long past time she was ignored by everyone else and allowed to die on the vine. If folks do want to know what she’s up to the contacts from her can be published as separate posts updated accordingly but without a comment thread and with the additional caveat that the site owner does not want the posts addressed in other threads either. That would feed any curiousity about where on the downslide she’s at without feeding her any direct attention.

    Just Passing Through (a91bd9)

  8. I’ll just add that a lesser included charge against Deb should be ‘Not Clever.’

    BumperStickerist (002671)

  9. I’m not trying to be facetious, but her behavior is like that of a rabid dog. Once a dog gets rabies, it wants to bite everyone.

    One more thing, as an amateur cyber forensic analysis, let me tell you, whether a person leaves their email addy / URL in a blog comment or not has absolutely no bearing on the legality of such a case. I could leave anyone’s email address / URL in a blog comment. That doesn’t make the comment theirs. Only IP addresses are relevant. She’s trying to claim that because she didn’t leave her name / email address / URL in certain “anonymous” comments, they must be from Glenn Gouldwald’s (sic) sock puppets. She should understand that nothing is anonymous on the internet. Nothing.

    anon (35e8a7)

  10. Oops… I meant “amateur cyber forensics analyst.”

    I’m such an amateur.

    anon (35e8a7)

  11. Chris, the Supreme Court’s Hustler case deals with the claim that speech can form the basis for the tort Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress (cartoons of Jerry Falwell having sex with his mother, etc.) I haven’t read it in a while, but if remember right the court held that you can’t get around the court-created speech-related constitutional protections created in the context of defamation cases by framing the tort as Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress.

    So I don’t think it’s tortious to make disgusting, vulgar jokes about individuals. (However, I might be wrong, and I have no Greenwald-esque “4 Pillars of Brian’s Greatness” to back my argument.)

    In the area of criminal law – and this can also be framed as a tort – a more effective approach might be found in “true threats” jurisprudence, i.e., threats to harm others physically. Some circuits, e.g., the 9th Circuit in the “Nurenburg Files” case, have held that such threats need not be on the order of: “Next Thursday, I’ll kill you.” These circuits have held that is accessing whether such a threat occurred, one looks at the entire context of the defendant’s communications to the victim, as interpreted by a reasonable person. Here, Deb Frisch may have crossed the line.

    Brian (5f2dda)

  12. I’m not an expert or lawyer… what about when the jokes involve probing for a person’s physical location with thinly veiled threats and also involve a child?

    Is that protected free speech?

    Chris (9824e6)

  13. Actually I don’t think we’re in substantial disagreement. You’re just mixing catagories a little.

    If the defendant says “Here’s a joke about you having sex with your mother, or your kid, ha, ha” that’s morally obscene but it can’t be redressed by the tort Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress, beause of the way the Supreme Court has interpreted the 1st Amendment.

    If the defendant makes a physical threat, that can be addressed both criminally and civilly. And some jurisdictions – e.g., the 9th Circuit – say that that threat need not be explicit, can take account of context as interpreted by a reasonable person, can take the form of a “joke” that isn’t really a joke.

    Brian (5f2dda)

  14. I defer to your better understanding, Brian. It appears here that the intention is threatening.

    Chris (9824e6)

  15. and this woman used to be in front of college students every day??

    cali white bear (2e4f82)

  16. Patterico, you’re a lawyer and an officer of the court albeit in a different jurisdiction (although she seemed to be making thinly veiled threats at you too)… don’t you feel honor bound to contact law enforcement in her jurisdiction and bring this all to their attention?

    No, for several reasons. I don’t have a general duty to bring all potential crimes to the attention of law enforcement, though I would naturally be inclined to as a general matter. I don’t know the laws of the applicable states. I don’t want to get involved on an official level; my blog is my own personal space and I don’t want to mix the two. I think it’s Jeff’s call how to handle it, and I trust him to handle it fine. If he needs me as a witness, I will of course be cooperative.

    Patterico (50c3cd)

  17. Patterico,

    Another reason for caution on your part might be Deb’s apparent knee-jerk reaction to sue anyone lining up against her. Given the seeming unpredictability of the courts, I’d be hesitant to be in that position.

    Mike (2978fd)

  18. Heh.

    Looks like people are ignoring her.

    Tom the Pooklekufr (3323cf)

  19. Chris, maybe we should both defer to Eugene Volokh of the Volokh Conspiracy, whose the premier 1st Amendment expert of the ‘sphere.

    In my opinion, Deb Frisch thinks she’s smarter than she is, and she’s intentionally walking the line, i.e., trying the threaten without being held legally culpable for doing so.

    Many years ago, a Greyhound striker said to me, when I was getting on the bus, “People who ride Greyhound are gonna die.” When I asked, “Are you threatening me?” (a line later made famous by a character named Cornholio,) he just repeated the same line. This fat bastard was no constitutional scholar, be he managed to absorb that an actionable threat requires, not merely warning of violence, but the statement or implication that he (or someone associated with him) will commit that violence.

    Frisch, in my opinion, is doing that same thing; using her intuitive sense of what an actionable threat is to try to walk the line (e.g., framing some of her statements in the form of questions, “jokes,” etc.) We’ll see if a judge decides that she actually crossed the line.

    Brian (5f2dda)

  20. #8 bumperstickerist

    That would be an aggravating factor.

    Federal Dog (9afd6c)

  21. Tom the PookleKufr:

    Whassup? I saw she banned you from SWPaw…accept my, uhhh, condolences.

    Don’t begin to understand how you managed to “tabasco her tampon” with so few posts, but then plumbing the psyche of the Yoo-Jeen mastermind doesn’t strike me as something I should do without a set of hip-waders and eye goggles.

    Anyway…good on ya!


    Bilgeman (9f37aa)

  22. Patterico, earlier today someone attempted to comment at my blog by trying to impersonate Jeff Goldstein. It wasn’t the same IP# that you have, but it’s the ARIN is from Eugene, Oregon – University of Oregon.

    I am going to email a screencap of the comment to you and Jeff both shortly – I don’t know if Jeff is able to even check his email now, so I’m sending it to you in case you can contact him some other way. Want him to be able to add it to his collection of harassing quotes from DF.

    Sister Toldjah (75c495)

  23. Bilgeman

    I wonder who the first cat to light her ‘pon fuse was.

    Tom the Pooklekufr (3323cf)

  24. Another thought on dealing with antisocial personalities like Deb is to contact her ISP and report that she is using their service for the alleged commission of crimes (assault, etc.). A brief letter from an attorney advising them that once aware, they may have liability for further actions, usually is effective.

    I work for an ISP in the central part of the US that has occasionally dealt with the termination of service when evidence was presented that it was used to commit crimes. Ebay fraud, identity theft, assault, etc. are all candidates. Most ISPs have a terms and conditions section in their service agreement that clearly states this out – ours even includes the use of the service to threaten other parties.

    We have one individual in our market who is in and out of the government’s mental care (under medication, he is releasable to his 80-year-old mother). He quickly drops the medication and starts email-bombing local businesses, making hate-filled websites rich with his delusional conspiracy messages, and even pulls stunts like sending 50 pages of black construction paper through the fax to his targets. Deb’s behavior is very similar and until she gets the treatment she very much needs, society needs to cut her off from the public square. Cutting off the Internet is a good start as it reduces their opportunities for projection and paranoia-inducing behavior. I have no doubt Deb /thinks/ these blogs are conspiring to attack her at her level of illness.

    While these troubled souls inevitably find another service provider, there are usually only a couple of broadband options and at least they’re relegated to dialup. If social services is too busy to come get Deb and help provide a safe, medicated environment for her, at least public efforts by decent people can mark her as one society will not tolerate.

    Incidentally, if Deb is reading this thread and has any grasp on her reality, she should show these posts and hers to a psychologist or healthy family member she respects who can help her understand that her perception is not correct and lacking medication, she will continue to degrade further until permanant institutionalization is the only solution. Our prayers are with you Deb – please get help soon!

    redherkey (219245)

  25. That may have been me, Tom. I got banned in the seventh paragraph of her post titled “Censorship” on 27th July (no link).

    Evil Pundit is banned for posting the lie re: Satchel on Benny’s post.

    It’s a mark of pride.

    Mind you, Deb’s definition of “permanent” seems to be “about six hours”.

    Evil Pundit (13f668)

  26. Note the use of rhyming words, such as complex rhymes (“turding wording”). This is a common sign of mental illness. As she does more of it, it is evidence that her condition is getting worse.

    If there are people who care about her, they should get her some help.

    Don Meaker (c466f6)

  27. 45 years ago(while an undergrad) the “hard” science men said (in jest) that the social “science” profs were either crazy or dumb. It looks like we should have been saying it in earnest. She is for sure crazy and may also be dumb.

    Rod Stanton (33568e)

  28. Don writes:
    If there are people who care about her, they should get her some help.

    Very true; I’m surprised she’s not disappeared for help yet. Hopefully she’s not one who lacks any close family who can tell she’s in trouble. Often, law enforcement will stay out until she’s hurt someone (or herself).

    About five years ago, I had a really smart employee start acting extremely strange like Deb (and a bit like the strange customer in my previous post). Emails filled with bizarre profanity-laced comments (which he would argue were no different than my brief “boss” emails giving him project instructions), strange hours, coming in late looking like he was half-dead, and increasingly paranoid behavior. After an episode involving his significant theft of company property and his projection of that act onto company management, we learned a lot from his now ex-wife about what he was going through. They said he truly could not tell his behavior was bizarre and was unable to sense or gauge any external criticism – as if that circuit got turned off in his brain.

    He had apparently been diagnosed as a narcissistic personality disorder since youth and had gotten into prescription pain meds which made his minor condition major. Five years later, he’s working again and apparently normal – no longer following ex-wives and former managers with a loaded handgun, attacking them on Internet discussion boards and so on.

    Deb’s stalking, complete absence of empathy or related perception capability, and increasingly over-the-top bizarre language are real clues. Looking at her history, she’s shown the classic narcissistic personality disorder foundation (delusions of self importance, abandonment in relationships, jobs or career fields as they don’t immediately regard the individual as the greatest genius, etc.).

    For three years, I had to hide out from Slashdot and other forums because of the stalking of our former employee. I knew he was doing better when that stopped and I could post again.

    Get help Deb! You know you are not happy right now, but can’t figure out why. You’re smart enough to know it is not “real” that half the world is conspiring against you. You think your behavior is ok or justifiable, and think if you question it for even a moment, your whole construct will crash. The good news is that your life can be happy again but it is no longer something you alone can do.

    From someone who knows first hand and cares about you…

    redherkey (219245)

  29. Good Patterico, I cannot imagine any attorney interested in keeping his career actually filing anything on behalf of someone with the good sense of the Flat Earth Society and the sociability of Adolf Hitler. Even Oregon has bar disciplinary people. Furthermore, this would be an ideal opportunity for an abuse of process countersuit. Parenthetically, I doubt that Eugene’s Sweetheart would be capable of drafting a lawsuit herself. So you not only have a winning hand, you have the whole deck.

    Bleepless (f7bab0)

  30. […] Not bad, though #5 hasn’t fared well as of late. […]

    “All Politics is National” at Blog P.I. (beta) (c73bc9)

  31. #26 Don

    I noticed and parodied Deb’s alliterative word salad here.

    Tom the Pooklekufr (3323cf)

  32. Just curious, is there such a thing as “written” Tourette’s disorder?

    Thano (5987f2)

  33. The overuse of the word “hombre” is very annoying, too.

    topsecretk9 (be795f)

  34. Thano

    The perfectly-named coprolalia (shit-babble) encompasses vocal outbursts; I don’t think there is yet a name for written outbursts.

    Tom the Pooklekufr (3323cf)

  35. Per #32… check out word salad and formal thought disorder on Wikipedia.

    Homesar (on is a good example of word salads.

    redherkey (219245)

  36. and while we’re on wikipedia references, check out the description of antisocial personality disorders.

    Funny how its hard to read the diagnostic criteria and not think of Deb, Glenn Greenwald or much of the left bloggers.

    redherkey (219245)

  37. #36 Redherkey

    I like the mneumonic for remembering the symptoms:


    * C – cannot follow law
    * O – obligations ignored
    * R – remorselessness
    * R – recklessness
    * U – underhandedness
    * P – planning deficit
    * T – temper

    Tom the Pooklekufr (3323cf)

  38. I find it interesting that she published correspondence (including email and phone number) from her hoped for attorney on her blog. I would sure love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation….

    jimbowe (08480d)

  39. Our friend Deb also published an email to Goldstein advising him to contact this lawyer, before that lawyer agreed to represent her. Pretty amazing.

    Brian (5f2dda)

  40. Redherkey –

    tell the guy with the construction paper and the fax that it’s much more effective to tape several pieces of construction paper in a row, then as the first one feeds into the fax machine, tape it to the last sheet, thus forming a loop. If no one notices, you can get several hundred pages of nothing but black on the other end.

    Of course I’ve never done this.

    Alice H (079f1c)

  41. Many years ago, a Greyhound striker said to me, when I was getting on the bus, “People who ride Greyhound are gonna die.” When I asked, “Are you threatening me?” (a line later made famous by a character named Cornholio,) he just repeated the same line

    I would have nailed him with a right cross aafter he first said that and he would not have had the chance to repeat it

    a more manly guy named Brian (fcf819)

  42. It is important to note that many fat people have a kind of ripple in the back of the neck, which acts as a shock absorber, and makes them more difficult to knock out, which is frustrating. In any case, the guy was a some distance away, and it wasn’t a particularly scary situation. By his conduct, he certainly earned the right to receive some form of violence, however.

    Brian (5f2dda)

  43. To the person wondering what criminal laws could be used against Frisch, I’d think they’d charge her under harrassment/stalking statutes. Colorado has one which covers online harassment/stalking.

    LoafingOaf (71415b)

  44. Yes it does.

    Btw, there’s an update. There’s another comment where she admits making a “snatchel” joke from the same IP address.

    Patterico (50c3cd)

  45. Alice H –

    Looped black paper? Ugh… don’t give them ideas!

    Yea, that character actually has run for governor a few times in our state and actually gathered as many as a couple thousand votes. Outta say something about the electorate.

    Deb’s clearly in need of someone to intervene and get her help. She’s not going to see it herself and it just gets worse untreated.

    redherkey (219245)

  46. I still can’t get over that a woman with such a low IQ, displaying no evidence of an education beyond junior high school, and with such obvious mental illness was teaching psychology at a university. I agree with a previous commenter that Frisch is ill and so we can’t lump her in with the Left. However, the Left does have some explaining to do about their hiring practices at universities.

    LoafingOaf (71415b)

  47. I still can’t get over that a woman with such a low IQ, displaying no evidence of an education beyond junior high school, and with such obvious mental illness was teaching psychology at a university.

    Actually, in the evaluation of a psychologist/practicing therapist I know who went over her comments and posts back at the beginning of July, she is very intelligent; it’s emotionally where she is still in junior high. Psychologist said that if she hadn’t been told the woman was an adult she would have assumed she was a teenager.

    As for mental illness, psychologist also says there is some truth to the stereotype about psychology/psychiatry professionals frequently standing in need of their own services. Psychologist says that many therapist training programs require students to receive therapy. But it should be noted that Deb Frisch is not a licensed psychologist in either Arizona or Oregon. Academia would not necessarily put the same emphasis on therapy since the profs are not working with clients/patients. And on the academia note, psychologist also says that adjunct professors take the leftover classes after the full-time profs have chosen what they want. Very part-time.

    Doesn’t make it any better that she was ever teaching students at all, but there are some facts to go on.

    Anwyn (8f969d)

  48. This is now an epidemic. I just read this news release on the Greenie thing (toungue in cheek)

    Associated Depressed report – Brazille, July 30, 2006 – By Sockitoome Green

    This reporter is still in shock at the recent revealations that the once famous NYT best seller list author, fondly known as GG, awoke this morning to find several things missing from his modest home. I suspect it may be the work of terrorists.

    GG reported to the local Commisar’s office that at least five of his close friends had been abducted, along with his cherished sock drawer, and that he “May have been analy probed”, but isn’t too sure, pending interviews with his significant other.

    GG is a modest, former supporter of the constitution and all of it’s free speech amendments and is, reportedly, seeking a voice for all socks to be equally recognized.

    An informative analysis would conclude that: one half of some socks end up missing after a few months in the dryer: so a logical argument could be made: The remaining half of the pair cannot be descriminated against and deserve the right of fair speech, proper folding, and fabric softener. (Although the mustache should be laundered seperately)

    When asked to name those who were abducted, GG only would say that they were very close to him, and the investigation continues. Searches conducted in the immediate area of the abduction turned up only identical twins of the missing socks.

    GG has also provided clues to investigators that may shift the focus to another occupant who may have had access to his residence.

    In any event, all the world should be on notice that these puppet terrorists are out there.

    Rooster (aa1065)

  49. Per #46…
    I agree with a previous commenter that Frisch is ill and so we can’t lump her in with the Left.

    LoafingOaf… I disagree. Look at Patterico’s previous thread “LA Times Editors: Can’t Solve Mystery of Why Muslim Guy Shot the Jews”. Then lump in the Andrea Yeates “not accountable due to insanity” verdict this week.

    Clearly, mental difficulties are the left’s new frontier. From theoretical models of the left (e.g. objectivism’s lessons) to first-hand experience with leftist friends, there’s too much frequency of using disfunctional mental states to rationalize behavior that is unacceptable in society. I have a hunch we’re seeing the emergence of the left’s new mantra: You can’t blame me because my disfunctional, deviant mind made me do it.

    This week was a great one for the mentally disfunctional left. Killing Jews isn’t terrorism because of insanity. Killing children isn’t bad because of temporary insanity. Delusional posts about having violent sex with another bloggers young children isn’t perverse because of temporary insanity. What can’t we excuse due to temporary absences of mental control?

    Any ideas what to do with the left’s latest excuse for its irrationality?

    redherkey (219245)

  50. I personally don’t think mental illness absolves one of personal responsibility. Nor does the criminal law; the insanity defense is a narrow catagory, which exculpates the defendant not merely because he’s ill, but because he’s deprived of volition regarding the acts in question. Which isn’t to say that Yates case turned out right.

    Now, I don’t see how equating Frish with the Left is any different than President Clinton effectively equating Tim McViegh with Rush Limbaugh (and right-wing talk-show hosts generally.) It’s factually wrong, and it poisons and chance of dialog.

    Brian (5f2dda)

  51. #50 Brian

    Now, I don’t see how equating Frish with the Left is any different than President Clinton effectively equating Tim McViegh with Rush Limbaugh (and right-wing talk-show hosts generally.) It’s factually wrong, and it poisons and chance of dialog.

    What matters is the reaction of the respective political groups to abberancy.

    The Left holds silence with regard to Ward Churchill, approves of Che Guevarra, worships terrorist sympathizers like Rachel Corrie, and reveres misery-mongers like Cindy Sheehan.

    The Right overwhelmingly condemns madmen like Timothy McVeigh (who killed far less people than Che), derides idiots like Pat Robertson, and holds contempt for anti-Semites like Pat Buchanan.

    Tom the Pooklekufr (3323cf)

  52. Sunday night – let’s play Doctor.

    Frisch is not arguing. Just insulting and tossing threats which may not be quite clear enough for legal action.

    Since she is highly educated the absence of structured argument interests me. It is a pattern sometimes used simply to be perverse, or to hurt feelings, somtimes the person is just drunk or under other artifical influence. Another possiblity is medical – tumor, lesion, glandular, perhaps depression. Finally, she may mean every word and intend harm.

    The perverse person usually attempts to tauntingly rebut. I haven’t seen her doing that. She is unlikely to believe she can hurt the feelings of Goldstein (at least further hurt them). No suggestion of drinking or drugs has been made – she would have let that cat out of the bag herself.

    Tumor, etc. is useless to speculate about. Hss she accused others of magically controls? Didn’t she say bloggers cost her the AZ job? And she would go to a friendly region? Bad vibes from all that sunshine?

    She does seem to stay with a topic. Severely depressed people can too. They can believe they have good explanations for everything. The explanations convince no one else yet they often have a wacky logic. Frisch shows no concern about contradicting herself – that seems OK to her.

    Total guess. Depression. As she becomes unable to cope her logical mind ‘proves’ the fault lies with others.

    K (f31147)

  53. Anwyn:

    Actually, in the evaluation of a psychologist/practicing therapist I know who went over her comments and posts back at the beginning of July, she is very intelligent;

    I don’t need an “expert” to tell me whether Frisch is intelligent. “Very intelligent” – yet you give no examples. I’ve looked over plenty of her stuff, whether it be her trolling posts or her general blogging. Plus there’s the fact she makes it so easy to track her trolling. And I’ve heard what she sounds like offline, via the radio interview she submitted to in Eugene, where she goes on about being a “word warrior,” not fully aware the interviewer is making a laughingstock out of her. The only thing I saw that seemed backed by intelligence was a piece she had merely co-authored.

    it’s emotionally where she is still in junior high. Psychologist said that if she hadn’t been told the woman was an adult she would have assumed she was a teenager.


    And on the academia note, psychologist also says that adjunct professors take the leftover classes after the full-time profs have chosen what they want. Very part-time.

    Yeah, I know that. There’s still no excuse.

    Maybe it was because she was apparently dating someone on the faculty. Or maybe it was because lefties don’t get vetted by other lefties. Or maybe it was because she threatened to make false accusations of discrimination as she did at a previous university that was trying to dump her. I don’t know…but something is wrong at the University of Arizona’s psychology department.

    In defense of academia, I’ve been in many college classrooms and never had a professor – or adjunct instructor – as ridiculous and impossible to respect as Frisch. I don’t know what I would’ve done had I been subjected to such a fool, but I’m pretty sure I would’ve made it a hellish semester for her. This is a woman who says she has encouraged classes to believe a missile hit the Pentagon on 9/11. But, no, I don’t think there’s an extreme crisis in academia in general. I just notice that of the freakos who do slip in, 9 times out of 10 they’re lefty freakos.

    LoafingOaf (71415b)

  54. Yeah, I know that. There’s still no excuse.

    I couldn’t be farther from making excuses for her or her hiring. I was merely observing that she’s extremely low on the totem pole of academia, thus contributing to her victim complex.

    I was citing somebody else’s opinion of her intelligence. I think at the very least, whatever smarts she has are being totally and completely overridden by her utter lack of emotional control. Emailing P to say she doesn’t have time to email him, thus falling neatly into his IP trap? Ultimately overblown bravado, emphasized in every last post she has made since this became news.

    I couldn’t agree more that something’s wrong at any university department that would hire her, starting with U. of A. But I think it’s fair to say she might be smart enough to fool some of the people some of the time, at least long enough to get hired.

    Anwyn (8f969d)

  55. By law, any citizen is free to say whatever they like to or about any other citizen. What the people who hold this as some sort of shield dont realize is that those people whom they abuse are also free to seek prosecution in return. Debbie seems to think she can say what she likes, but if anyone says anything back it’s suddeny a threat. Apparently she is now considering litigation which I find farking hilarious – she has not got a leg to stand on, and the countersuit will see her penniless and locked up in an institution.

    yup (2dbf30)

  56. Anwyn:

    “Actually, in the evaluation of a psychologist/practicing therapist I know who went over her comments and posts back at the beginning of July, she is very intelligent; it’s emotionally where she is still in junior high.”

    I have to recall one of the first things they taught me in Physics to ‘splain the difference between scalar and vector values.

    They used IQ as their example, and made quite a “deal” of stating that intelligence not only has a scalar component, but also a direction.

    And that therefore the commonly accepted “IQ” score was innaccurate and misleading.

    Imagine an “old-school” Physics professor, who learned his math before they invented calculators, getting a touch “hot under the collar”,(be afraid…be VERY afraid!).

    So, while Frisch the Failure might indeed BE intelligent, in a scalar sort of way, her “vector” is most definitely in the “self-negate/self-destruct” direction.

    I posted a pretty clear set of instructions on how to commit the “magic of self-murder”,(to use Kenneth Anger’s term), so that she doesn’t muck THAT up also.

    She saw fit not to publish that comment, although she hasn’t banned me from her site.

    You can learn so much from people by what they DON’T publish…y’know?


    Bilgeman (71415b)

  57. Just a quick observation: I’m beginning to wonder if Deb is so anxious to litigate this for one reason only – the chance to meet Jeff in person and drag him into her life.

    I’m glad Jeff is pursuing this in the way he deems fit, because he should, but if this gets to where they are present at the same location (as in a trial) Deb will probably be winking at him, making gestures, and even inviting the “hombre” out for a drink after the day’s court session is over. In her twisted mind, I think she sees this escalation as “passion” and “connection.” I also think Deb is hoping that threatening Jeff’s child and wife will result in Jeff shrieking in desperation, “Fine! Take me, I’m all yours, just leave my kid and wife alone.”

    She is like demented kudzu.

    twizzler (a90377)

  58. Technically, the Internet has always worked as follows — clients (e.g., deb’s PC) can make any request and servers can block it. Legally it is a whole different game (e.g., Can Spam).

    Here’s what I’d do if I were in Jeff’s shoes. I’d immediately install a packet filter (iptables on Linux, whatever Windows has, or at an external router) to block Deb’s Class C. She’s probably using a dynamically assigned IP, so you might have to do this multiple times.

    Unless I make a mistake, Deb is using a QWEST IP address. The whois info at ARIN.NET for that IP gives the phone number 1-877-886-6515 and the address “” for reporting abuse from that IP address. I’d contact Qwest and politely provide your evidence, and ask that they terminate her account for abuse. If that doesn’t work, we can talk about boycotts later on.

    Oh, and if Jeff’s blog is hosted, then he needs support from his hosting organization. If they can’t provide it, then he should move, and he should advertise why he moved.

    Finally, I seem to recall something on Declan McCullagh’s Politech mailing list (archived at about a new law making it illegal to send abusive content such as this. But I’ve looked for a few minutes and can’t find it. I suggest writing up your evidence and sending it to the Politech list.

    Contact if you have questions.


    Al Donaldson (876b46)

  59. Redherkey-

    Regarding that story about the employee 5 years ago. You didn’t happen to work for an IT company that was later bought by NGIT, did you? Because this story sounds A LOT like one of the network engineers I knew when I worked at NGIT.

    Andy (90ee7d)

  60. Interestingly (at least to me) people who I’ve known with mental disorder (or whatever term is given for it) tend to follow a pattern.

    When things are good they are relatively ‘normal’, that is, they don’t pick fights, they don’t self-destruct, they can make reasoned conversation, etc.

    When things get a little bad (and worse) its like they hit the top of the first hill on the rollercoaster. It’s then and only then, do you really get to see what demons someone is battling.

    I think everyone is like this to an extent; the trying times bring out the best & worst of all of us.

    But onto what I wanted to say- I’ve found that when someone believes something false, it has a way of slowly crystalizing all of their knowledge– like a poison spreading, or a prion re-folding other proteins as they contact one another.

    Since the human mind works generally in a write-back heuristic, rather, that logic is worked through as it is brought to light rather than having to resolve every idea with the new information as it is acquired, (ugh, what a convoluted sentence 🙂 a person will only be slowly effected by a poisonous bit of falsehood.

    My question is, what is the falsehood that someone like Deb believes? Is it as simple as her believing that she is a load of positive characteristics, even when she cannot prove it to herself? I’ve often wondered what the logical source of believing something like (for instance) 9/11 is a conspiracy orchestrated by our own government. Its not a reasonable thing to believe if you read news and books and talk to people. I suppose in some places an echo-chamber kind of effect could be taking place, but there are plenty of people who believe these things outside of such an environment.

    So the question one might pose is, is Deb’s trouble a result of mental illness which is creating her illogical thinking, or is her mental illness itself caused by holding so strongly to falsehood that it warps everything else?

    My viewpoint tends to be that I weigh ideas against other ideas, and since they need to work together (I.E. synthesis) they must reconcile to one another at least fairly well. Kind of like a jigsaw puzzle. Incidently, I am pretty good at puzzles. So maybe its a statement about the way my mind works.

    Anyway, if an idea doesn’t work with the ideas it is supposed to connect with, then it is probably false. OR, the ideas it is connecting with could be incorrect. Sometimes in a difficult puzzle you find that the current piece is right, and all of the earlier pieces were wrong because of a single error.

    I take a Christian perspective on the whole thing. Paul says: “Test each spirit”. In some ways, knowing and belonging to God allows us to take ideas less personally– (well, most of them.) Ideas really aren’t what is important, its people. Without people there would be no wealth, no vehicle to express ideas, no things to acquire (even ownership of land requires another person to acknowledge the ownership.)

    This is why, while I do understand the nature of mental illnesses (some of them…) in some ways, we end up making people more mentally ill by calling them crazy. Yeah, they are crazy. But if we want them to get better, we’ll meet ’em where they are.

    To circle back, Deb’s gone, I think, into a time of trouble for her in some fashion (someone earlier outlined possibilities.) My analysis (though limited) would be that she believes something that is patently false, but loves that idea more than she loves any one person, or at least, more than she loves any of us. (Meaning Jeff, Ace, Patterico et al.) Slowly this falsehood has forced her to warp her perspectives on all things, and prevents her from having anything more than a juvenile emotional connection to mostly anyone. The reason might be that connecting with a person could dislodge or damage the idea that she loves so much. But I don’t think we should ‘judge’ her, that is, while we know and understand that she is suffering from a kind of mental illness, she is still a person. Thus, though she is our enemy, we must love her, for she is also our neighbor (love thy neighbor as thyself.) To use a phrase that I’ve often heard in college christian fellowship circles, “What this looks like”, is another thing. But for certain; Deb is not loving her enemies. There’s a passage about showing kindness to the unkind heaping burning coals on their head. (This refers to a ritual of public repentance.) I hope Jeff handles this with kindness, not being paternizing, but also being firm and resolute.

    I like to say, “I only have two cheeks.” 😛

    RiverCocytus (f10a37)

  61. I’m not sure what people find so bizarre about Frisch’s behaviour, within the context of celebrity stalking. This is all pretty standard stuff. Personal attacks or threats against family members of the target? Check. Extremely vulgar and sexually harassing hate messages? Check. Feelings that she is the injured party, and that her target is somehow “egging her on”, despite her target making a deliberate effort to ignore her? Check.

    Keeping that last point in mind, Jeff, and whoever is the ultimate head honcho of PM, should prepare for a long and expensive string of spurious harassment/defamation suits, which will probably be launched even from the rubber room that Frisch is, very soon, going to find herself in. Hopefully they can wring some of the legal costs out of Frisch, but I’m willing to bet she doesn’t have much money at this point–a situation that’s just going to worsen, along with her psychosis.

    And forget about ignoring her. It won’t help. Stalkers like her see subliminal messages directed at them in anything her target(s) say or write about any subject. It’s all about them. So as far as she’s concerned, she’s “getting attention” whether in reality we ignore her or constantly call her out for the flaming nutball that she is. But at least we get some satisfaction/relief in choosing the latter option…

    Pickle (85be61)

  62. Andy writes (#59):
    You didn’t happen to work for an IT company that was later bought by NGIT, did you?

    Nope. Scary to think there are more of them out there like that. No, it really was a shame. Worked with the guy in a previous company too, and he was fine. Different, and he’d confide that he had a real hard time reading other people or sensing his behavior wasn’t correct sometimes.

    Totally spiraled out of control when he started abusing his pain meds (apparently he had a couple of car wrecks and a really bad back). Witnessing his experience first-hand and hearing Rush Limbaugh talk about his pain med problem has made me hope and pray I never need to take them.

    Curiously, was your crazy engineer also liberal? That’s a coincidence I keep seeing over and over again that has me wondering if there’s something between the ability to rationalize anything anytime and mental problems.

    redherkey (219245)

  63. Kitty Genovese Blog Syndrome…

    It seems that the utterly crazy leftist Deborah Frisch’s been antagonizing Jeff Goldstein again, and he now feels that legal action should be taken against her. At the same time, he’s also thinking of shutting down his own blog. Patterico’s got some…

    Tel-Chai Nation (59ce3a)

  64. “No suggestion of drinking or drugs has been made – she would have let that cat out of the bag herself.”

    I’m not so sure that she would have let that cat out of the bag herself. In my drinking days I’d be standing right in front of my husband, swaying, eyes crossed, barely able to speak, and deny that I had anything alcoholic to drink. I do agree about the depression, and she may be self medicating. Serotonin governs impulse control, and it’s obvious she has very little. She said herself that her family knows about her blog, and were upset over what she had done. I hope they’re still reading it, and encouraging her to get professional help. She definitely needs it.

    Maggie45 (8b573e)

  65. #64. right – about the drink, drugs, cat, bag.

    I certainly can’t know. My reasoning was she seems to make no attempt to put a good face on her posts. They are attacks alternating with ‘no fair hitting back’. Plus some paranoia; ‘how do I know my posts aren’t altered’ stuff.

    My experience is that a drunk is more likely to try convincing with positive arguments and sometimes allude to mysterious higher knowledge. The attempt may be laughable but it says something. Frisch really presents nothing.

    What I ascribe to drunken argument I have also encountered with drug use.

    Guessing is more fun than actually being a Doctor restrained by all those pesky ethical concerns.

    K (f31147)

  66. I have to say that her posts sound omininously like the ravings of a friend of mine a few years ago. Always angry and filled with hate. He was an alcoholic, but held a job. During the day he was nice as could be, but if you called after he had had a SINGLE beer, you were in for a scathing rant on how you sucked for this or that reason. It was weird as hell, since 1 berr could not get anyone drunk.

    Do this lady’s vitriolic comments only come in the evening?

    Kevin (51c906)

  67. oops! I should have read previous comments before commenting :). I’m with K on this one.

    Kevin (51c906)

  68. She’s finally ready for Huffpo.

    They’ll love her.

    Dave in Texas (a59564)

  69. Unfortunately these soi-disant “jokes” are what pass for witty, urbane Wildean comedy in this creatures head. I, personally, find them lacking in any risible content or tone. Perhaps she could sub for the Dowd-thing. Or write a commisioned book for Soros. From jail.

    Uncle Pinky (6c11f1)

  70. “Actually, in the evaluation of a psychologist/practicing therapist I know who went over her comments and posts back at the beginning of July, she is very intelligent”

    There is no evidence at all that she is “intelligent.” All the difference in the world separates spending years in a classroom and being educated. She may well have spent a decade in school, but the last thing she is is “intelligent.” Her own conduct proves that beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Federal Dog (9afd6c)

  71. “all the difference in the world separates spending years in a classroom and being educated.”

    Oops, typo — the last word here should be “intelligent.”

    Federal Dog (9afd6c)

  72. Redherkey writes: “Curiously, was your crazy engineer also liberal? That’s a coincidence I keep seeing over and over again that has me wondering if there’s something between the ability to rationalize anything anytime and mental problems.”

    I have no idea. I suspect it’s possible but I doubt his political leanings have anything to do with his illness.

    After he was fired, his picture was posted at all our offices around the country to call the police if he showed up; he had made threats against our CEO, and evidently threats against a CEO of a Fortune 20 (at least) company get taken pretty seriously. I do think he’s better now though.

    Andy (90ee7d)

  73. Dear Patterico:

    Did you see the latest zaniness from you-know-who on her website? She is parodying Robert W. Service’s “The Shooting of Dan McGrew.”


    Is she trying to skate as close as she can to write things that appear to be threats?

    I don’t believe that she has spoken to a lawyer, and I believe that Mr. Goldstein has—based on the fact that he isn’t trying to “bait” her.

    Mark (e71505)

  74. Want a laugh? This post claims that the right wing bloggers are up in arms about Deb Frisch because they are “projecting”:

    What we’re witnessing on a massive scale, of course — as the foofaraw over Deb Frisch so amply illustrates — is projection: the classic right-wing propensity to see in its enemies its own dark side.

    How utterly vacuous.

    Kazinski (0ac809)

  75. More fun with the anonymous idiots from Sadly, No! here. Today’s theme: why it makes sense to hide behind a pseudonym and call others cowards.

    Read the whole thread.

    Patterico (50c3cd)

  76. […] Michael Moore(on)’s new crockumentary (the one after his crockmentary about healthcare) will no doubt be about the appalling injustice that poor, defenseless, completely innocent lefty liberal is currently living. function wpopen (macagna) {, ‘_blank’, ‘width=500,height=500,scrollbars=yes,status=yes’); } […]

    Pereiraville » The Moore(on)’s new crockumentary: Frisching For Trouble (3254dc)

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