Three Gitmo Inmates Commit Suicide — We Have to Shut it Down Now!
The L.A. Times reports:
Washington — Three Middle Eastern detainees being held at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, committed suicide Saturday morning, military officials said, becoming the first captives to take their own lives at the prison and prompting new calls for an immediate shutdown.
Islamic extremists committing suicide . . . why, it’s unprecedented! We have to shut the whole place down!
Good thing prisoners at normal American jails and prisons don’t commit suicide, or we’d have to shut down those facilities too.
I’m happy to see that these detainees are finally getting their fundamental constitutional rights to commit suicide. Maybe I won’t have to file that civil rights lawsuit after all.
I’m willing to chip in for a fresh batch of rope.
Old Coot (caf903) — 6/10/2006 @ 8:44 pmAt this rate, Guantanamo will have the best non-recidivism rate of all our prisons.
Ed C:\> (d72d01) — 6/10/2006 @ 8:55 pmThose prosecuting the GWOT are not as smug.
The Gitmo commander called the deaths ‘acts of war’ committed on the U.S.
“I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us,” Rear Adm. Harry Harris said.
Tony Snow told reporters Bush “expressed serious concern” and said U.S. officials made a round of calls to American allies.
Privately, they may be loving this.
steve (645635) — 6/10/2006 @ 9:03 pmI don’t doubt the Admiral’s statement. The organized nature of the suicides is very suggestive. It’s probably an organized event to get Gitmo shut down. If so, the LAT is playing right into the terrorists’ hands. (Who would have believed it?)
Patterico (50c3cd) — 6/10/2006 @ 9:25 pmOK, Lets get them out of Gitmo. Who is going to take them? I’ll bet none of the nations that are bitching or were they came from or even if they did Humn Rights are going to complain. These guys are hard core. If we does this in US courts, it’s nothing but a Grand Festival for the ACLU.
Maybe they took that route knowing they be sent back to their own country? Blessed be Allah to know His own thugs.
Mike in NY. (496906) — 6/10/2006 @ 11:25 pmPatterico: I don’t doubt the Admiral’s statement. The organized nature of the suicides is very suggestive. It’s probably an organized event to get Gitmo shut down. If so, the LAT is playing right into the terrorists’ hands. (Who would have believed it?)
In Patterico’s world, reporting the news = “playing right into the terrorists’ hands”.
NYTimes: Responding to the growing furor over the issue in Europe, Mr. Bush said in an interview with German television in May that he would like to close the Guantánamo prison, but that his administration had to await the outcome of a Supreme Court ruling on whether the detainees should be tried by civilian courts or military commissions.
George W. Bush wants Guantanamo shut down. Guess he’s playing right into the terrorists’ hands, too. (Who would have believed it?)
[Ah, good ol’ m.croche. The guy who made up a story about me, has refused my demand that he retract it, and thinks I am going to let him forget it — though I have promised him that I will not. It’s quite simple, croche. Every time you pop up here, I remind people how you make stuff up. Give me a sincere apology, without any snark, and maybe I’ll stop. Until that happens, every comment of yours comes appended with links to your little fabrication. Cheers. — Patterico]
m.croche (e2f596) — 6/11/2006 @ 12:13 amTerrorists kill themselves to prompt new calls for an immediate shutdown, and the LAT reports that the suicides are prompting new calls for an immediate shutdown.
The suicides also prompt the military to say that the suicides are part of an organized campaign to get an immediate shutdown. But that doesn’t make it into the first sentence.
LAT: just reporting news? or playing right into the terrorists’ hands? You be the judge. I know what I think.
Patterico (50c3cd) — 6/11/2006 @ 12:30 amNew standard equipment for all prison cells. An eye bolt in the middle of the ceiling equipped with an 8 foot rope. Use by prisoners is optional. Works for me.
Scrapiron (9f37aa) — 6/11/2006 @ 5:14 amI have no issues with this article. This is just how things work in the news Patterico, and rightly so. Whatever news is making the headlines are covered first in a news piece – in this case the suicides. So that argument is put forth. Then, later in the story, you get rebuttals. In this case, they give the military’s side of the story:
Does that sound like the LA Times is pandering to Al Qaeda as Patterico would have you believe? No, it’s just more of Patterico’s fussing that the paper doesn’t censor all right-wing criticism.
MEANWHILE, we have fake news infesting the MSM. Understandably, this fake news story is being largely ignored by the MSM (it must be awfully embarrassing to them). Oh yes, government created propaganda brought to you in the MSM without a hint of where it came from. Big business has their long, bony finger in that pie too. We’re being subjected to government and business propaganda as if it were actual news stories.
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/06/press-corrupted-by-fake-news-america.html
This is what we should be protesting – it is such a façade.
Oh, and don’t give me the feeble, “These used to be Public Service Announcements” argument. Public Service Announcements (PSAs) are not used as partisan propaganda. You know, PSAs tell you to wear your seatbelts or some such benevolent advice. Fake news, in contrast, tries to sell you the party line talking points or is actually a commercial for business masquerading as a news story. If these fake news stories are just PSAs, then why do they have to hide in the shadows? Let them be labeled as PSAs or get them off the air.
I think I’ll let Rottenfuehrer Goldstein know about this too.
Psyberian (dd13d6) — 6/11/2006 @ 5:52 amp.s. My rant about fake news may not be only directed at the Bush administration, so it’s bipartisan. My understanding is that this extends into the Clinton administration too. If it proves that Clinton is also involved in these fake news stories, fine. He should be held just as accountable.
Psyberian (dd13d6) — 6/11/2006 @ 6:46 am“The suicides also prompt the military to say that the suicides are part of an organized campaign to get an immediate shutdown.” – Patterico
Kafka couldn’t have said it better.
steve (d9aab7) — 6/11/2006 @ 9:23 amPsy,
You almost always take the subject a thread and use it as a preamble to an attack on our government, our system economic system, or, as in this case, some rant on government propaganda. A good example of this is the long exchange you and I had on the Zarqawi Dead — No, Really! thread where you used that thread to impress us with you dislike of capitalism and to show your support of socialism.
You love to change the subject, don’t you. I wonder why that is?
Ray (be81f9) — 6/11/2006 @ 9:25 amBack on topic.
I’m not surprised that the L. A. Tims, and other newspapers, are using this as another call to shut down Gitmo. The L. A. Times doesn’t support the war on terror, the Iraqi, war, or the President and will be vocal opponents to most of this administration’s policies. That’s obvious in their reporting and in their editorials.
What the L. A. Times and other newspapers fail to understand is the fact that they do not make policy in this government, so their words ring hollow at best. They can print any story they want and it will have little or no effect on the policies of this administration, just like Psy’s rants against our capitalist economy will have no effect on our economic policies. They may be interesting to read, but it’s just entertainment. And that’s all, folks!
Ray (be81f9) — 6/11/2006 @ 9:34 amPatterico and Angry Clam are free to call me on my thread hijacking anytime they like Ray (and notice that this subject is off-topic too). So far, neither have complained to me specifically although I do try to stay on the general topic most of the time – in this case, MSM bias. Or if someone like you says something I want to comment about, then I treat that as fair game too.
As for my criticizing our government, I don’t know why republicans can do it (e.g., taxes, public schools, the U.S. Postal Service , etc., etc., etc.) but not us democrats. When you guys criticize the government, you are being patriotic; but when we do it, it is labeled anti-American. Hogwash.
Psyberian (dd13d6) — 6/11/2006 @ 9:39 amFirst, give us laws that explicitely state that prisoners taken on the battlefield are not subject to U.S. law except to military justice. No habeas corpus, no appeal to civilian court, no right of release until the entity for which they fought signs a peace agreement.
Walter E. Wallis (7ea451) — 6/11/2006 @ 10:16 amRemember, it is not a crime to make war against the United States, it is WAR and should be treated accordingly.
Because they were confined at Gitmo, the three prisoners who committed suicide were only able to take their own lives. They were unable to strap bombs to themselves and kill others in the process. Good riddance.
Stu707 (18fdc8) — 6/11/2006 @ 10:20 amAnti-American is as anti-American does, and by their words you shall know them.
So long as the American people elect their leaders, the Left can’t openly call for our defeat. So they tiptoe around the edges, snipe, complain, and make false allegations. They smear out troops with trumped up atrocities, they undermine our institutions, they lie, distort, and condemn. They do what they can to assist the terrorists, but in the process they also reveal themselves.
Every single time we achieve some significant victory, the Dems, MSM, and the whole unholy host of unindicted coconspirators goes into high dudgeon. They besmirch our victories with every imaginable criticism, they minimize, try to delegitimize, or undermine our achievements. While at the same time they advocate for the enemy, call for the shut down of Gitmo, and seek to build monuments to the terrorists.
But, bloody terrorism is really only a tool used in a modern information war. The terrorists can’t win a stand up confrontation, so they play to the MSM to undermine our resolve, question our motives, and provide convenient fault lines along which “useful idiots” can drive wedges to divide Americans.
The Islamic terrorists scored once when they murdered 3000 of us on 9/11 and they score again every time an American newspaper or TV production portrays them, and their homegrown enablers, as anything other than murdering bloodthirsty animals and their associated running dogs.
Let me add that I’m not talking about a loyal opposition, that’s an American tradition, I’m talking about a disloyal opposition and ways to identify it. Our disloyals live among us, just as terrorists live among women and children. But, just as terrorists reveal themselves when they take up arms, disloyals reveal themselves with twisted words, phony arguments, and bogus outrage. They speak with a forked tongue.
Black Jack (d8da01) — 6/11/2006 @ 10:47 amPsy,
You can thread hijack all you want, and I will call you on it.
“When you guys criticize the government, you are being patriotic; but when we do it, it is labeled anti-American. Hogwash.”
When have I called you anti-american? Show me the post! The only hogwash I see is yours!
When you make repeated posts abut the value of a socialist economy and say we need to take an honest look at communism, then you give the appearance on anti-americanism as that is not the economical or governmental systems we use. Don’t be surprised when people read your posts and see your preference to another system of government. That could be considered anti-american.
Ray (be81f9) — 6/11/2006 @ 10:56 amYou can thread hijack all you want, and I will call you on it.
OK, whatever Ray. Why should I care?
When have I called you anti-American? Show me the post! The only hogwash I see is yours!
Where did I accuse you of personally calling me “un-American?” I was speaking in general terms.
I’m afraid this bickering of ours is boring Patterico’s readers. Let’s give it a rest for a while, eh?
Psyberian (dd13d6) — 6/11/2006 @ 11:11 amhave the gitmo detainees ever been adjudicated in court to be terrorists/al-qaeda, in a process offering some of the rights americans expect when they’re tried; counsel, access to evidence, confrontation of witnesses, etc.?
assistant devil's advocate (70d396) — 6/11/2006 @ 11:29 amweren’t a lot of the gitmo detainees offered to us by others in iraq/afghanistan/pakistan in return for bounties of thousands of dollars? is paying for an accusation a good way to get the most truthful accusations?
does patterico support the indefinite detention without trial of non-americans? if so, will he grant leave to other countries to dispense with humane norms in addressing our nationals?
am i the only person here who recognized the statement of gitmo commander admiral harris “this was an act of asymmetric warfare against the united states” as an orwellian moral obscenity?
“Where did I accuse you of personally calling me “un-American?” I was speaking in general terms.”
Your post was to me specifically when you included my in the first sentence. When you use “When you guys” at the beginning of a sentence,then I can only assume that you included me in the accusation stated in the sentence.
Next time I suggest that you include the word “generally” when making a statement as to avoid confusion.
“I’m afraid this bickering of ours is boring Patterico’s readers. Let’s give it a rest for a while, eh?”
Are the readers bored? Then they can post their objection to our exchanges to show their annoyance , otherwise you making assumptions that you can not validate. How are my counter-arguments to your statements considered bickering? Don’t I have a right to disagree with your statements, verbally (so to speak) and in public? Should we restrict our discussions only to private settings? As you say, that’s hogwash!
Ray (be81f9) — 6/11/2006 @ 11:34 amam i the only person here who recognized the statement of gitmo commander admiral harris “this was an act of asymmetric warfare against the united states” as an orwellian moral obscenity?
Yes, but steve recognized it as a Kafkaesque moral obscenity. That’s pretty close.
Patterico (50c3cd) — 6/11/2006 @ 11:34 am“have the gitmo detainees ever been adjudicated in court to be terrorists/al-qaeda, in a process offering some of the rights americans expect when they’re tried; counsel, access to evidence, confrontation of witnesses, etc.?”
The Gitmo detainees were not captured in America and do not have the Constitutional protections afforded to those arrested or detained within our territorial boundaries. How can the detainees be offered the protection of the Constitution when they were captured in countries that are not a part of the US. Remember, the Constitution only applies to Citizens of the US and any person within the boundaries of this country. That doesn’t describe the detainees at Gitmo.
Ray (be81f9) — 6/11/2006 @ 11:44 amADA, there is an important different between civilian prison –which is used to maintain civil order by confinging lawbreakers– and war prison, which is used to win wars by incapacitating the enemy. Because civilian imprisonment is intended to maintain civil order, it is constrainted by law and by the requirments of justice. War imprisonment, by contrast, is not about justice at all, any more than bombing the enemy is about justice. We aren’t bombing them because they deserve it but because we need to kill them in order to keep them from killing us (not that justice can’t be served in such a bombing).
Since war prison is about winning a war, not about justice, it makes no sense to apply the cumbersome apparatus of justice to war prisons. Yes, there could be some injustice going on in any given war prison. That’s too bad, but we have a higher purpose at the moment: survival.
Doc Rampage (f06a6e) — 6/11/2006 @ 11:57 am“O’Reilly the Assassin and Weapon to Make People Insane now?” LOL That IS funny!
Do you think repeated viewing of the O’Reilly show would make a good PsyOp Weapon of Mass Insanity? Maybe we should broadcast the show 24/7 over the Middle East! Along with songs by Christina Aguilera! Maybe then all the terrorists would commit suicide. Ahh but that would be considered torture now, wouldn’t it?
Ray (be81f9) — 6/11/2006 @ 12:14 pm“We spend 3 times as much feeding a gitMo slug, than we spend on feeding a single soldier.”
I can’t disagree with you there.
We also spend ten times as much feeding the congressional democrats one meal then we spend on feeding the military for an entire year! Those three martini lunches are expensive, you know! 😉
Ray (be81f9) — 6/11/2006 @ 1:23 pmGood thing prisoners at normal American jails and prisons don’t commit suicide, or we’d have to shut down those facilities too.
Prisoners at normal American jails do sometimes kill themselves, or attempt to.
That said, prisoners at normal American jails have been tried and convicted of a crime they were charged with at the time of their arrest. They had the right to see the evidence against them, the right to confront their accuser(s), and the right to an attorney.
Kathy (1b5d53) — 6/11/2006 @ 2:36 pmThere were a number of suicides of the Bader-Meinhoff gang in German prisons. It may have something to do with feeling defeated too. That had something to do with the B-M suicides. Maybe these guys believe they are losing. Their only hope is Speaker Pelosi and Majority leader Murtha. If that doesn’t happen, they are toast.
Mike K (416363) — 6/11/2006 @ 5:52 pmO’Reilly was there on Friday for Fox News. Perhaps they timed the suicide to counter his expected positive view of the prison?
Nah, these guys wouldn’t use suicide as a weapon, would they?!
Patricia (2cc180) — 6/11/2006 @ 6:26 pmKathy,
Are you saying that the detainees at Gitmo should be treated like criminals convicted in the US? If so, please refer to my post #23. If not, then I don’t understand your point.
Ray (be81f9) — 6/11/2006 @ 7:08 pmAre these the same three that tried to kill themselfs on May 19? I thought Islam banned suicide? I guess these weren’t true believers.
Ray (be81f9) — 6/11/2006 @ 7:11 pm“Prisoners at normal American jails do sometimes kill themselves, or attempt to.”
People that have never been incarcerated have committed suicide, or attempted to. In fact, most suicides and attempts are made by those who have never been incarcerated, or even detained.
Maybe we should issue Prozac to the Gitmo detainees? After all, suicide is caused by depression and depression is caused by a chemical imbalance of the neurotransmitters of the brain, right?
Ray (be81f9) — 6/11/2006 @ 7:29 pmPsyberian, YOU are the one supporting American values. FAKE news, government propaganda, gee, where and when was that? Do I even have to say?
Asking merely for the present government to be as respectful as you are, is showing your integrity.
These guys here it seems are just more supportive of the right wing lines than ACTUAL American values, like a FREE PRESS. Just letting Coulter (uh oh, I feel a churning in my gut), O’Rielly, Hannity, Limbaugh, Savage, and the like do their thinking for them. Tragic.
It is sad though that they are willing to violate so much to fit into the gang, more like gangsters. (example: Torture the maybe terrorists, why not crack a joke)
blubonnet (86405d) — 6/11/2006 @ 11:43 pmAlso, it just shows how ugly we as Americans have become to let this torture go, SOME (conservatives) making excuses for it. It was obvously despair that led them to commit suicide. Ol’ Hairy the REAR admiral was just kissing the REAR of the vile administration with such lovely policies as to disregard all laws of the Geneva Convention. Arent’t you just so proud of the way we Americans are showing such honor in this world? The rest of the world considers us lower than dog shit now since Bush and the PNACzis are in charge. Amazing how even still there are these conservatives that are still so polly anna to keep on speaking good of these criminals.
blubonnet (86405d) — 6/11/2006 @ 11:50 pm“Asking merely for the present government to be as respectful as you are, is showing your integrity.”
“Please Mr. President, respect the men that would kill our men and rape our women simply because we allow people to follow whatever religion they wish.”
I can’t believe you want us to show respect for people who rape, torture, and murder anyone that doesn’t follow their evil form of religion. Do you hate the conservatives so much you would rather support people that have no qualms about killing you and dragging your body through the streets for others to see? Your just plain crazy!
“Also, it just shows how ugly we as Americans have become to let this torture go”
Just what torture are you talking about? These people killed themselfs, they didn’t die from torture.
“It was obvously despair that led them to commit suicide.”
Let me guess, you feel that this despair is from being held in Gitmo, right? Gee, the terrorists feel despair because they can’t impose their will upon the whole world. I feel soooooo bad for them!
“policies as to disregard all laws of the Geneva Convention”
How is detaining people captured in war a violation of the Geneva convention? It isn’t a violation. The people detained kill their captives without hesitation. They drag the bodies through the streets and hang them from bridges! What respect to they show for the Geneva convention? None, and they would be happy to shove that convention up your REAR just to prove it.
You speak of ‘right wing lines’ yet spout left wing talking points throughout both your posts. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
You speak of showing respect yet call conservatives things like “Ol’ Hairy the REAR admiral was just kissing the REAR of the vile administration” and “Coulter (uh oh, I feel a churning in my gut)” and “Bush and the PNACzis”. Wow, your respect of people to whom you disagree is amazing! It’s slightly above the respect the Nazis showed the Jews or the respect the terrorists showed their victims, just before they cut off their heads.
When will you and the rest of the crybabies realize that you can’t have things both ways, like saying that the president shouldn’t impose his will on others by making war and detaining those that would attack us and insisting that the constitution applies to every person no matter what their nationality is.
Grow up bluebonnet and start to think for yourself. Do you really want the United Sates of Taliban? Continue to show ‘respect’ for terrorists and that’s just what you’ll have.
Ray (be81f9) — 6/12/2006 @ 1:12 amI’m certain I heard on a CNN report that one of these guys had been approved for a transfer to a third country (his own? I don’t know). Apparently, that wasn’t what he wanted either.
MayBee (8aec89) — 6/12/2006 @ 4:33 amThe suicides appear to have been prompted by a rumor floating around that if 3 prisoners committed suicide, Gitmo would have to be shutdown.
I would like to officially start the rumor that Gitmo will have to be shutdown if 100% of the prisoners commit suicide.
Matt (a4418f) — 6/12/2006 @ 4:53 pmRay, first and foremost, those held in detainment camps are not allowed an attorney, so there is no evidence that they actually are Taliban or Al Queda. We don’t know that they rape, torture, murder, whatever. Often times they are just captured because after our troops have busted into the homes of families, and it is discovered that there is a firearm in the household, that is reason enough to haul them in and whether or not they are truly a threat to US forces is irrelevant.
Second. Torture policies are only done by tyranical regimes. So what does that make us ? It is also against the Geneva Convention.
Apparently, Alberto Gonzales contends that since our enemy does not wear a uniform, now the Geneva Conventions’ rules do not apply to us. Gee, I guess there is no need to let my conscience come in to this now, huh?
Incidentally prior to the elections there, there was no Islamic fundamentalist rule. Now there is. Not that Sadaam Husein was any saint, but women were allowed to go to college, wear jeans, no burka required, (also, there were free state funded colleges), food was available to most. YES he was a creep in most ways though.
But our occupation is much much worse than when Sadaam Hussein ruled. The insurgency is mostly not Al Queda. Over 90% are mostly just Iraqis that have had friends and family blown up by our bombs and random warfare. Most all of the Iraqi population now has someone they loved that has been killed by us.
You have to realize that the reason you don’t know these things is because you rely on either conservative blogs or MSM. The MSM is owned mostly by the people profiting off of the war and oil, the profiteers in the ugly bloody misadventure.
You should find out what is really going on by several new sources. One is an unembedded journalist by the name of Dahr Jamail (an American) His web site is:
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/index.php
Another source for real news (not white washed) is:
blubonnet (86405d) — 6/12/2006 @ 11:59 pmhttp:///www.democracynow.org/
Ray, darn it I typed the second link wrong. This is the right one.
http://www.democracynow.org/
Also, to understand the very serious problem with the media a fascinating documentary to watch online is this link:
blubonnet (86405d) — 6/13/2006 @ 12:05 amhttp://freespeech.org/fscm2/contentviewer.php?content_id=1166
Prisoners in normal US jails are not held for years without ever being charged with a crime. Or is it different in LA?
Why have the Gitmo prisoners not been charged with a crime? Why do we call them terrorists? Shouldn’t they be called suspected terrorists? Why not put them on trial? Why is innocent until proven guilty only for Americans? Don’t we want to instill our values on the rest of the world? What if we are wrong?
If our soldiers who become POWs were treated as the Gitmo prisoners have been, we all would be angry.
Just as watching “United 93” gives me pride in my country, watching “The Road to Guantanamo” does just the opposite.
NE Liberal (cc7ab7) — 6/24/2006 @ 12:11 am[…] There was a serious set of hunger strikes in December 2005. Contrary to the views of those (like commenter steve) who believed that Americans would be delighted at suicides by Guantánamo detainees, it is clear that Colonel Bumgarner took extraordinary measures to keep hunger strikers alive, despite their intense determination to expel any nutrition from their bodies: By late November, while many of the strikers were maintaining their weight, four or five of them were becoming dangerously malnourished, [Navy Capt. John S. Edmondson, MD] said. By sucking on their feeding tubes, they had figured out how to siphon out the contents of their stomachs. Others simply vomited after they had been fed. […]
Patterico’s Pontifications » Kafka and Orwell Meet Reality: NYT Article on Guantánamo Shows that the June Suicides Were a Publicity Stunt After All (421107) — 9/17/2006 @ 2:39 pm