Patterico's Pontifications

3/29/2006

Accepted Wisdom on Immigration (A Reprise)

Filed under: Accepted Wisdom,Immigration — Patterico @ 6:02 am



(Accepted Wisdom is a semi-regular feature of this site, highlighting contradictory viewpoints held by the elite.)

In light of the recent protests over the immigration bill, I thought it might be a good idea to reprise an installment of Accepted Wisdom regarding illegal immigration, first published here in November 2003.

It is Accepted Wisdom™ that:

We should not enact divisive laws that burden illegal immigrants. These immigrants are necessary to our economy, because they do jobs nobody else wants to do for the same wage.

And at the same time:

The federal government needs to impose strong sanctions against corporate executives who employ illegal immigrants, to send a strong message that it is illegal to hire undocumented workers.

75 Responses to “Accepted Wisdom on Immigration (A Reprise)”

  1. Also, the federal government should amnesty the illegals so they can start earning the same wages everyone else would demand for the same work. And we should thank them for doing the work at lower wages no one else is willing to do them for. Yes, both.

    [Yeah, I was already going to do that one, probably tomorrow. I was just figuring out how to phrase it. Great minds and all. — P]

    Xrlq (f52b4f)

  2. The federal [and state and local] government needs to impose strong sanctions against corporate executives who employ illegal immigrants, to send a strong message that it is illegal to hire undocumented workers.

    Though a greedy capitalist myself, I still find it amazing that we are not primarily attacking the “supply side” of this equation.

    Personally, I think that would be a small price to pay to know who these folks are and where they are, ensure that they pay taxes, and that the employers are treating them fairly. Of course that might also result in leveling the jobs market some, allowing some of our native workers to have a shot at making a decent wage in some of these jobs.

    Of course, I trust that all the folks out there who “feel the pain” of the “undocumented” visitors will not in the least complain that some retail prices will inevitably rise.

    Harry Arthur (40c0a6)

  3. Working Americans pay high taxes to support a bloated social welfare system which keeps our indigenous workforce unemployed, but ready and willing to vote Democrats into office.
    But then we allow millions of illegals to openly defy our laws and ignore our national borders so they can do the jobs our welfare recipients are prevented by our laws from doing.

    Is that what passes for conventional wisdom?

    Black Jack (d8da01)

  4. Also, the federal government should amnesty the illegals so they can start earning the same wages everyone else would demand for the same work. And we should thank them for doing the work at lower wages no one else is willing to do them for. Yes, both.

    And they should form unions.

    actus (6234ee)

  5. Then we’re just fucked. A bunch of people with no skills whose labor is only worth $2 an hour, if that, demanding union wages? Do you know what that means?

    Hello, welfare recipients.

    Angry Clam (fa7fff)

  6. Do you know what that means?

    Do you work in an LA office building?

    actus (6234ee)

  7. We also demand that illegals pay taxes on their income, but refuse to give them social security numbers.

    Kevin Murphy (6a7945)

  8. Yep, and we bring to America a group of people who have higer-than-average birthrates while working at low wages and wonder why California seems to have an intractable problem with poverty.

    JVW (d667c9)

  9. Kevin,
    Illegals are usually payed under the table, so they don’t pay taxes (with the exception of sales tax, from which they are likely to benefit). Personally I am hesitent to suggest blanket amnesty. More like, you have 3 months to go to your home country and come back over legally, after that, you get arrested and deported. However, in order for that to work, a guest worker program is a good idea and I fully believe in an open-door policy on immigration into the country (no quotas… just background checks etc and citizenship requirements).

    galletador (b58eba)

  10. This country does not need to inflate the population of lower income families. This country does not need to make it easy for our enemies to attack us.
    This country does not need to prove its humanity to the world by letting unlimited people onto it’s social saftey nets.
    I’m sorry if you can’t find a legally immigrated housekeeper, gardener or Farm Worker at the price you want to pay.
    But I am the result of someone who sat on Ellis Island for a month after a three week crossing in Steerage. Who then HAD to learn English in order to participate in this economy. I see it as unfair to all the immigrants who came before, and paid the freight, to simply let people wade across a river and slide right into this country and it’s society.
    The quality that those immigrants had in the past that made them American is the fact that they placed the American culture and ethos atop their native one.
    Todays immigrant needn’t do that, they simply have to whine and complain and demonstrate that those who paid the freight before them DARE ask the same of them now. Give me a break.
    Those that illegally immigrate should be punished,
    Those that hire them should be punished.
    If all immigrants were held to the law then our policies and laws would not be divisive, they would simply be the requirements to becoming an American.

    paul (001f65)

  11. Well, the Republican party has a problem with this issue. It splits their base because there are two political positions on immigration within the party.

    1) There is a powerful pro-buisness lobby that needs and wants low-wage workers. In particular, agricultural people need workers to pick grapes, apples and other farm products. This lobby wants guest workers that can come to America on a migratory basis and follow the growth/harvesting season.

    2) There is a powerful lobby in the Republican party that wants to put strict controls on immigration. Often people in this lobby are concerned with illegal immigrants and are worried about the decrease of wages that they view as caused by freely available migrant labor.

    Meanwhile, immigrants are feeling insulted because of #2. Latinos are angry because on TV people like Lou Dobbs are questioning their patriotism. The Catholic church is upset about the House Bill and the provisions about criminalizing charity work.

    I can’t figure out why the Republicans thought it was a good political issue. This is an election year! If they keep this up, they are going to loose California and the south-western states for a generation.

    geoduck2 (098c5d)

  12. Maybe it isn’t such a good issue for the Republican Party, but I give them credit for addressing it nevertheless. It would have been relativelly easy to ignore it, especially now when the economy is doing well. And geoduck2, there are more than the two positions within the GOP. There is also the Jack Kemp position which is that immigrants are hard-workers who aspire to a better life and will become patriotic citizens, and there is a faction that assumes that easy immigration will allow terrorists to slip through our borders.

    I also don’t think there will be long-term consequences to the GOP over immigration, even if they take a beating this year for it. The Dems are divided into identity politics camps with Latinos wanting more immigration as a way to build their political bases and African-Americans wanting tighter border controls because they see their influence in urban America waning. Then there are the environmentalists and Greens who are concerned with overcrowding, offset by big business (which since the Clinton days is at least as generous towards Democrats as it is to Republicans, at least when Democrats have power) which also wants the cheap labor and unions who see immigrants as their next growth market.

    JVW (d667c9)

  13. go after the companies that employ the illegals? send the illegals back?

    you are all dreaming. i have lived in california for 30 years.

    thousands and i mean thousands of small businesses hire and use millions of illegals everyday. trust me, short of a new black booted gestapo they are staying employed. any law passed to enforce some sort of penalty will never make it out of the court system. think prop 187 etc. so stop pulling your own chain thinking some legislation out of washington is going to change anything on the ground.

    send them back? assuming you could get the authority to do it (this to will sit in the courts until we are the new new mexico) we have to have a fence from san diego to brownsville so that they don’t just walk back in led by their favorite coyote for $3,000.

    10-15 million well organized people-and they are very organized are staying so get over it. part of the solution is to stop adding to the size of the group. we have to build a fence before we contemplate any other measures. don’t listen to anyone that says fences don’t work. they have other agendas they are not willing to discuss.

    15 million illegals are easy to assimilate over twenty years or so–and guess what, despite the headlines they want to be assimilated. but it can only work if no more are added to the mix……

    the folks that think the 15 million illegals are going anywhere are delusional. we let them in and now they are here for good. there are no laws, past , current or in the future that are going to change that. no doubt there will be folks who get on soapboxes and pretend to write new legislation to solve the problem. the sooner we all act like adults and realists the sooner this diversive issue can be put behind us. do any of you actually think that the illegals are going to be rounded up and sent back to mexico etc? do you think funding is going to be cut to cities. you have to be kidding. the bong smoke is clouding your vision.

    the absolute best that we can accomplish within current law is to build a fence so the problem doesn’t get any bigger. a fence is cheaper and more efficient than salaried border patrols in the long run. this fence works

    http://www.weneedafence.com/images/Fence_Idea.jpg

    after that then we can deport the bad guys during a 5-10 years green card period on the way to their citizenship. that’s right, their citizenship. 15 million people are not going to continue to live here as second class illegals forever without bringing the whole country down. why? because as certain as the sun comes up in the morning 15 million will be 30 million in 25 years. you need to get your arms around these kinds of numbers. we need to seal the border and make them citizens just like the irish, italians, germans, jews etc who came before them. the fact that they got here illegally is irrelevant. they are here get over it.

    there are no good choices just hard ones. but again, to repeat, the illegals are not going anywhere. the protest march is just the beginning. 15 million organized people are not going to leave because you tell them to. you are right about the current legislation being proposed–they won’t sign up as expected. why? because its just more BS. however they will sign up for a clear path to citizenship because despite the flags you saw that is what they want. they are no different than previous legal immigrants. if the irish etc could have walked across the border they would have. so stop pissing and moaning. the federal government and states left the border wide open and millions walked across it. duh!

    i’ll make a prediction. if a secure fence is not erected at this time we will have this cicrle jerk again in twenty years and the number then will be 30 million along with 25 million children who will be citizens. then the problem will be this

    http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4786/105/1600/Aztlan.jpg

    not because of some dark conspiracy but because of differing birthrates. we need to start seeing the world as it is not as we hope it would be.

    and finally……

    riddle me this………

    who broke the bigger law? the folks who risked life and limb to get here or the politicians/bureaucrats who failed to enforce the state and federal laws to protect and seal the borders? we need to get past this “illegal” designation. they are here and they are staying. get over it. no amount of convoluted gestapo, stalinist, nativist jib jab is going to change that. remember 15 million is really over 30 million when you throw in their supporters and the larger hispanic community in general. start getting serious.
    the idea that unemployed “illegals” are going to go home in numbers is ridiculous. the part you are not getting is this– it’s their country now. millions of them already have their own small businesses, families, homes etc.

    crack down on the people that hire them? again you are just not getting it. you are cutting your nose off to spite your face. when i read the suggestions/solutions i feel like i’m with a group that is being held up at gun point and they are asking the perp if the gun is registered….lets try to get the weather-vanes in washington to do at least one thing first–SEAL THE BORDER. after that we will work on the rest.

    just remember this at all times–if you were them–young, poor and starving for a life– you would have crossed the border also if it was left open. we caused this problem. we left the border open with a huge 2000 mile long honey pot on the other side. i’m honest enough to admit i would have pushed you out of the way as i scrambled across!

    http://www.weneedafence.com/images/Fence_Idea.jpg

    and finally here’s the real pathetic reality—virtually every congressman/woman and the president are against sealing the border. they are more worried about our image with the world and mexico. read the fine print in bills being considered. so, you think we are going to start solving the illegal immigrant problem inside the US while we can’t rally the consensus to close the border where the illegals enter? put down the bong you have had one hit too many.

    patrick neid (e03540)

  14. And I thought I tended to be long winded. . .

    JVW (d667c9)

  15. Penalizing employers won’t get anywhere unless there’s a fundamental change in the way the required paperwork is processed.

    The key piece (IMNSHO) would be a website that allows one to enter ‘Name, SSN, Company Name, Company’s “Employer ID Number”‘ and get back ‘VALID’ or ‘INVALID’.

    This _still_ will not cover ‘day labor’ + pickers + whatever. But for anything relatively stable it should be a big piece of the puzzle.

    Al (2e2489)

  16. JVW – Your description (#12) holds that the Democrats who are in favor of more immigration only do so because they think it will improve their political base. Why do you not believe that there are Democrats who are honestly pro-immigrant in the same way that you depict the Kemp faction as being?

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  17. Al – given the existence of such a website, what recourse would a citizen have if the data were some how incorrectly entered or hacked, and they were reported as not being legally able to work when in fact they were?

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  18. JVW – also, there were long term consequences for the Republican party after Proposition 187. To a certain extent, that is a result of highly successful demogaugery by Democratic party politicians in California – but to a certain extent it was also due to real outrage and some particularly poor tactics on the part of the Wilson administration. But the point remains: there is a danger that this can backfire in the faces of whoever brings it up, regardless of which side of the issue they stand on. Which is one of the reasons most politicians prefer to ignore it.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  19. What recourse do you have _NOW_ if the Feds mess up your SS records? The way things work currently, there _is_ an IRS audit of SS numbers, and companies do get lists of invalid SSNs. But that is _at_best_ yearly.

    It isn’t a matter of _entering_ the data, the data is already in there. The IRS has my legal name, my SSN, my companies legal name, and my company’s EIN. If I mistype the information in on a new hire, I immediately get back ‘INVALID’. At that point, I’d consider retyping once or twice. Then I’d ask the applicant ‘Is this precisely the correct way to spell your name?’ or ‘May I _see_ your SSN card please?’

    The goal is to eliminate the huge lag due to bureaucracy. If you can’t get ‘VALID’ you have a pretty good idea you might be on the verge of hiring an illegal. So I won’t have a problem punishing someone who has 20 employees coming up ‘INVALID’. The way it works currently, the first actual evidence is the report back from the IRS – so the illegal got a year of work or so. I _do_ have a problem punishing someone who has 20 illegal employees currently, at least when they have followed the regulations. Because under the current format, the employer doesn’t know (they can _suspect_) anything until the IRS report.

    All I’m saying, basically, is that there is _no_ test for a valid social security card currently.

    Al (2e2489)

  20. Aphrael:

    I didn’t mean to imply that the Democrats’ support of immigration is entirely self-serving. Certianly there are those who welcome immigration because it is in the American tradition, as well as those enraptured by multiculturalism who think that everything Third World is neat-o and romantic.

    It might seem contrary to popular opinion, but I think the California GOP’s recent problems owe more to the state’s affinity for social liberalism such as gay rights, unrestricted abortion, hardline environmentalism, etc. As you may recall, the GOP won electoral victories in 1994 by supporting Prop. 187, and the current Governor won in large part because of a backlash against granting drivers licenses to illegals. I think once those victory were over, California voters went back to supporting lifestyle liberalism with a dollop of low-tax fiscal conservatism (at least for the non-rich) that essentially defines the state’s politics today.

    JVW (d667c9)

  21. 1) I’ll second Aphrael: Prop 187. This is playing with fire, especially if the House provisions get discussed in the media, especially the Spanish-language media.

    2) Oh yes, I understand that my summary over-simplified a large political party. However, my point was that there are two positions not easily reconcilled with each other. And there’s a lot of emotion involved.

    The Dems are divided into identity politics camps with Latinos wanting more immigration as a way to build their political bases and African-Americans wanting tighter border controls because they see their influence in urban America waning.

    The real question is if it annoys people enough to vote for the other party. Or if people are annoyed enough to stay home from the polls. It doesn’t take a large shift to significantly change the outcome of an election.

    Bush and the Republicans got more of the Latino vote then usual in ’02 and ’04. I would be surprised if that pattern continues in ’06.

    The Irish and Italians were annoyed enough at Protestant nativism that they voted for the Democrats all though the 19th century and well into the 20th.

    geoduck2 (098c5d)

  22. Oh – and more immigrants are migrating to the south eastern states then in the past.

    I don’t really get the California comments on social liberalism, especially considering how powerful the Catholic church is in the Latino community.

    geoduck2 (098c5d)

  23. JVW: Thank you for your clarification on the subject of Democrats’ support of immigration. 🙂

    I think you have a point about California politics, although I also think you dismiss too quickly the lingering effects of Proposition 187 on the state’s politics. It is true that California’s voters by-and-large swing to the left on social issues, and it is also true that the voters in the Republican party primary are significantly more conservative than the state’s voters as a whole (the fact that the Republicans have been unable to nominate and support a moderate candidate to topple Barbara Boxer does much to substantiate both of these points, as does the widespread belief that the current governor could not have won a Republican party primary). But that doesn’t explain the degree to which Democrats are dominant amongst the state’s hispanic population — who are, by and large, much less supportive of Democratic party positions on such things as gay rights, abortion, school vouchers, and environmentalism. While the memory of Proposition 187 may have faded among white California voters, it remains strong among hispanic California voters … and that is hurting the Republican party significantly here.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  24. Geoduck2 – while it is true that the Catholic church is powerful in the Latino community, and while there are socially conservative areas within the state, the major urban areas are socially very liberal. Politically, California is the only state in the nation in which the legislature has enacted gay marriage (it was vetoed by the governor). Pro-life politicians are significantly encumbered in statewide races (the current Republican governor is pro-choice). The voters of the state overwhelmingly defeated a ballot measure to require parental notification before abortions. Etc.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  25. The Irish and Italians were annoyed enough at Protestant nativism that they voted for the Democrats all though the 19th century and well into the 20th.

    Yeah, but these two communities were also working class and working poor so they naturally gravitated to a political philosophy that promised them more money for fewer hours and lots of goverment programs to serve them. Once these classes assimilated and moved into the mainstream, they tended to cast a more critical eye towards liberalism and move to the right. I think Bush’s gains among Latinos in 2004 are a sign of upward-mobility in that group, and the continued problems that the GOP has in California are indicative of the continued poverty in Latino/immigrant communities. Did Bush significantly increase his share of the Latino vote in California, or was it mostly other states?

    JVW (d667c9)

  26. Yeah, but these two communities were also working class and working poor so they naturally gravitated to a political philosophy that promised them more money for fewer hours and lots of goverment programs to serve them

    What does that gravitation have to do with them being wrokinc class or working poor?

    actus (ebc508)

  27. I don’t really get the California comments on social liberalism, especially considering how powerful the Catholic church is in the Latino community.

    Here is what I am saying: With Prop. 187 you had the Latino community and most white liberal supporters lined up against, and on the other hand you had conservatives, libertarians, a majority of African-Americans, and lots of independents/moderates in favor. The latter group carried the day, but once that was over the African-Amerians and a huge slice of the independent/moderates went back over to vote Dem the next time around. It wasn’t a matter of Latino voters changing their voting patterns, therefore, it was other groups that usually ally with them.

    Aphrael, hopefully my response in #25 address your questions in #23.

    JVW (d667c9)

  28. I was born in Los Angeles and have spent my whole life in So. Cal.

    Watching the “student strikers” (and listening to my officers snickering and laughing about the cluelessness of most of ’em) what really gripes me is the total, contemptible ingratitude of individuals running around with Mexican flags, tossing gang signs and yelling about how “This was Mexican land first! It belong to us!” — individuals that will fight not to go back to Mexico and concurrently spitting on America..the country giving FREE education FREE medical care and cash jobs to them.

    ER’s are closing, schools are overwhelmed — if this isn’t addressed seriously right now (screw fines for businesses, start arresting the employers and padlocking the businesses) So. Cal will soon resemble TJ, with only the very rich and the very poor living here.

    Darleen (f20213)

  29. What does that gravitation have to do with them being wrokinc class or working poor?

    Goodness gracious, if you are working 12 hours a day shoveling coal into a furnace for 50 cents a day (I am talking turn of last century here) wouldn’t you support a party that worked to limit your day to 8 hours and raising your wage to 70 cents?

    JVW (d667c9)

  30. JVW – The Field Poll, the most respected polling agency in California, estimates that the Latino electorate in California went 68/29 for Gore in 2000 and 66/32 for Bush in 2004: a minor gain, but potentially a statistically insignificant one.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  31. Sorry, that should have read 66/32 for Kerry. Gah.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  32. BTW Patterio

    OT I posted a reply on the Lions Den thread… Pandagon is up and Amanda is, indeed, lying about you.

    Darleen (f20213)

  33. What really gripes me is the total, contemptible ingratitude of individuals running around with Mexican flags, tossing gang signs and yelling about how “This was Mexican land first! It belong to us!”

    Wouldn’t it be funny if they had their way and the land was given back to them, BUT those with 100% native Central American blood subquently kicked out any Mexicans with just a trace of European ancestry? There would probably be like 100 people or so running the whole region.

    JVW (d667c9)

  34. JVW – The Field Poll, the most respected polling agency in California, estimates that the Latino electorate in California went 68/29 for Gore in 2000 and 66/32 for Bush in 2004: a minor gain, but potentially a statistically insignificant one.

    Thanks for checking that. I think it helps my argument that California Latino voting patterns are largely set, and are a function of economics rather than social issues.

    JVW (d667c9)

  35. In ’02 and ’04, I was thinking of the Latino vote in the south-west and Texas.

    Yeah, but these two communities were also working class and working poor so they naturally gravitated to a political philosophy that promised them more money for fewer hours and lots of goverment programs to serve them. Once these classes assimilated and moved into the mainstream, they tended to cast a more critical eye towards liberalism and move to the right.

    I understand and agree with this argument, but something else was happening at the same time. There used to be signs like “No Irish need Apply”. My elderly Italian relatives remember during the second rising of the KKK when their Catholic church was burned down. My grandfather remembers being called a wop. There were comic strips that made fun of Catholics and Irish/Italians for drinking alcohol.

    Hurt feelings go a long way. Nobody gets upset or trashes Italians when we bring Italian flags to a cultural event. Yet Latinos got a lot of crap about this last weekend. This type of feeling and dialogue doesn’t go unnoticed by the Latino community. That is what people tend to remember. Even when they become middle-class, that kind of talk drives people away for a long, long time.

    geoduck2 (098c5d)

  36. Patrick N —

    Tomato canners in the 1960’s complained they needed illegal workers. When the Bracero program ended they paid marginally more for their workers and automated. A lot.

    Illegals going away self-deporting (because they can’t find work) means employers take native born workers with low skills (African American inner city young men, native born Latinos, Anglos etc) and use their own expense to train them. Marginally fewer workers at marginally higher wages, with more investment in capital to make them productive. A leaf blower for one worker instead ten with brooms.

    Somehow Japan seems to get along fine without millions of illegal workers at the margins. Their major problems are not worker productivity but a banking system mess. The departure of illegals would make our inner cities far more wealthy and safer.

    Patterico would spend a lot more time on a lot fewer cases, as people moved into the workforce and found violence simply not worth it.

    Republican collapse is more the function of the nearly 2 million Anglo and married voters who moved out of the state in the 1990’s. It matches the voter registration gap between Dems and Reps almost exactly. And accounts for neighboring states becoming more Republican.

    Dems supporting Illegals means fewer and lower paying jobs for African Americans, and Anglo, native-born Latino, and Asian working class folks. It hurts their base too, since the Party is 100% behind this “lower wages for Average Americans” policy. Thats What’s The Matter with Kansas?

    Jim Rockford (e09923)

  37. Here is what I am saying: With Prop. 187 you had the Latino community and most white liberal supporters lined up against…It wasn’t a matter of Latino voters changing their voting patterns, therefore, it was other groups that usually ally with them.

    I see what you’re saying. I was thinking of other elections and long-lasting voter patterns, because of Prop. 187, rather then the specific break down of the vote on 187.

    I also brought up the Catholic church because social issues like abortion can break away a portion of Latino voters. But that effect is seriously diminished if people feel their ethnic heritage is under attack.

    Look at what people are saying about the flags. People’s patriotism is being insulted. Nobody has a problem with flags in the different Little Italy’s in America. And think about the role of honor, insult and shame in Latino/Spanish/Italian cultures. Insulting the honor and heritage of someone’s family is a big deal.

    geoduck2 (098c5d)

  38. Dems supporting Illegals means fewer and lower paying jobs for African Americans, and Anglo, native-born Latino, and Asian working class folks. It hurts their base too, since the Party is 100% behind this “lower wages for Average Americans” policy. Thats What’s The Matter with Kansas?

    It hurts the Democratic base only if the Republicans can get those groups to vote for them instead.

    Look at the comments on this page about flags. This issue playing as an anti-immigrant meme and a anti-Latino meme. It’s not playing as a illegal-immigration issue to large parts of the electorate. Latino is being conflated with illegal immigrant in the rhetoric.

    geoduck2 (098c5d)

  39. galletador–

    Of course they are paid under the table — there is no mechanism for doing otherwise.

    This isn’t to say that there should be such a mechanism, but complaining that they pay no income taxes (as some do) fails to recognize that they CAN’T.

    For me, the basic problem with illegal immigrants is the “illegal” part. If there were exactly the same number of legal immigrants from exactly the same places, I’d think it a great boon.

    Would that poor native-born Americans had the same work ethic as most immigrants…and please spare me the minimum wage rhetoric. If you want to find a group that is LESS likely to have their hand out for the dole, you’d be hard pressed to find one.

    Kevin Murphy (9982dd)

  40. If I deduct the cost of workers from my taxable income, I damn well better have records of withholding from those worker’s wages.
    We need a national I.D. that can be relied on, and employers who do not record that I.D. need to not be allowed to deduct wages paid without an I.D.

    Walter E. Wallis (f05610)

  41. Jim Rockford,

    my comments #13 were strictly directed toward a “what to do now” solution. i am trying to get folks to look at the immigration problem from a realistic point of view and what can possibly be done within the construct of modern america.

    simply put–15 million illegals aren’t going anywhere. now what? closing the border with the fence i suggested seems to me the only rational first step. all the other solutions mentioned here and elsewhere are all earl scheib paintjobs on broken down heaps that have been driving around for 30 years while illegals have gone from 1 million to 15 million…………

    anyway in the longer version i think i addressed it pretty good if i don’t say so myself…:)

    p.

    yes, yes i think it’s very important that we concern ourselves with the fallout on the dems and repubs while rome burns, nero is naked and helen’s face job turned out terribly. yes, yes important stuff as we cicle the drain.

    patrick neid (e03540)

  42. How about this for an idea:
    Let the Military line the border with hybrid guard/recruiting posts. Then they could recruit for the military which would qualify those coming in for naturalization! Learn a skill, provide a service to their new home….whaddya think?

    paul (001f65)

  43. did I mention that Sarcasm was on?

    paul (001f65)

  44. Jim Rockford, don’t forget teenagers as one of the groups that otherwise would get entry-level jobs if there were not so many illegals in the country. Every May we get a story in the LA Times, NY Times, et alia about how sparse the job market is for the 16-19 year old set. I think back to when I was that age and the sorts of jobs that my buddies and I had: lawn mowing, dishwashers & busboys, car washers, garden work, babysitters, etc., and think of how many of them are now done by illegals. Imagine how much better off the younger generation would be and how many social ills would be lessened if more of them were able to get these jobs.

    JVW (d667c9)

  45. Goodness gracious, if you are working 12 hours a day shoveling coal into a furnace for 50 cents a day (I am talking turn of last century here) wouldn’t you support a party that worked to limit your day to 8 hours and raising your wage to 70 cents?

    Sure. But everybody wants a government for them, that serves them.

    actus (6234ee)

  46. easy solution – just apply the same rules and laws to Mexican nationals working in the US as the Mexican government applies to US citizens working in Mexico. You are working in Mexico without proper work papers you go to a Mexican jail. Perhaps we could also require illegal Mexicans in US jail to have family send money and food to support family member.

    Ray Simpson (75a3b5)

  47. Sure. But everybody wants a government for them, that serves them.

    Yeppers. That would be my point.

    Again with the confluence of people with Mexican heritage and “illegal criminals”

    If your heritage was sterotyped as “criminals” by a political party, would you vote for them?

    geoduck2 (098c5d)

  48. In the spirit of our esteemed host’s “Accepted Wisdom” theme, how about these two:

    1- Americans hate illegal immigration and will vote for politicians who promise to do something about it; and

    2- Americans vote for illegal immigration every day, by choosing to spend their money on the goods and services they know (but refuse to admit) are produced in part by illegal immigrant labor.

    Dana (a90377)

  49. Exactly, Dana. The short version is “Everyone hates illegal immigration but loves $.99 strawberries.”

    JVW (d667c9)

  50. #35 Geoducks

    The Mexican flags during the pro-illegal-anti-American demonstrations over the past couple of days are provocative – because of the ingratitude. The Mexican flags waved did NOT have a thing to do with “heritage”.

    Absolutely no one objects to Mexican flag during Cinco d’Mayo celebrations! (which in parts of So. Cal match St Patricks day).

    Darleen (f20213)

  51. The Mexican flags waved did NOT have a thing to do with “heritage”.

    Absolutely no one objects to Mexican flag during Cinco d’Mayo celebrations!

    Its ok to be good happy get us drunk mexicans. But don’t ask for anything.

    actus (6234ee)

  52. The Mexican flag over an upside down American flag on a flagpole on the grounds of a California public school is an obscenity. Even if these were legal immigrants, I would want their status revoked and them deported. They are not even likely to be prosecuted for trespass, vandalism or disorderly conduct. “Guest workers” my @#$%. Send them all back to scratch fleas.(See, Paul. I can fly off the handle too.)

    nk (47858f)

  53. “The Mexican flag over an upside down American flag on a flagpole on the grounds of a California public school is an obscenity. Even if these were legal immigrants, I would want their status revoked and them deported. They are not even likely to be prosecuted for trespass, vandalism or disorderly conduct. “Guest workers” my @#$%. Send them all back to scratch fleas.(See, Paul. I can fly off the handle too.)”

    What I enjoy here is the foreignization of the latinos. Every time a mexican flag or a brown person is shown, they’re immigrants. legal or not.

    actus (6234ee)

  54. nk,

    oo-rah!

    Actus,

    What I enjoy here is the foreignization of the latinos. Every time a mexican flag or a brown person is shown, they’re immigrants. legal or not.

    What I enjoy is the demonization of all ‘anglos’ everytime someone bumps into our laws.

    paul (464e99)

  55. Thanks, Paul.

    Actus, when one insults the American flag and raises another country’s isn’t he foreignizing himself? Within the context of this thread — the debate over illegal immigration — my comment was very apropos. Why should we tolerate people here, legally or illegally, who’s loyalty is to Mexico and not to America? Maybe these kids were “Born in East L.A.” (very nice video by Cheech BTW)but that’s because we did not deport their parents but instead granted them amnesty in the late 70’s – early ’80’. And this is what we got in return. We should not repeat that mistake.

    nk (4cd0c2)

  56. What bothers me about the immigration debate is people are reacting to it the same way they did to the Dubai ports deal – out of emotion. It doesn’t appear to me that many people are actually considering the implications of deporting 10 million people or erecting a Berlin Wall style barrier between the US and Mexico (and Canada also I presume).

    I just finished having a new house built a year ago. While it was being built I was at the site every day. Throughout the process, the excavation, laying drains, building the concrete forms, pouring the slab, framing, roofing, installation of windows, electrical, interior plumbing, gas, insulation, sheetrock, alarm system, painting, flooring, landscaping – the entire house was built by people that didn’t speak English (hispanics).

    My point is, I think most people have this idea that Mexican immigrants are picking lettuce and cleaning toilets. They do that, sure, but they are far more integral to our economy than that stereotype would suggest.

    From what I can tell the emerging world economy is being set up as three spheres; Asian, European and American. With globalization, and again from what I can tell, the idea is that individual nations will not be able to compete globally as the US has in the past. Instead a larger American economic bloc including Canada, the US and Central America is the competitive design.

    So really, people need to get over it. Politicians are playing on people’s fears and prejudices in this debate. Neither party is going to stop illegal immigration. Forget it, it isn’t going to happen. It wouldn’t just drive up the cost of lettuce, it would shut down the US economy.

    They’re blowing smoke up your ass.

    Dwilkers (a1687a)

  57. Actus, when one insults the American flag and raises another country’s isn’t he foreignizing himself?

    They might be. Most of us have foreignized ourselves and our heritage at some time. But enough to get one deported? Not really. Its just a flag, an argument being made in a demonstration. A pretty effective one too if you’re in territory that america came to second (or third, if you count natives).

    I’ll bet you they cheer for the better team in the world cup too.

    actus (6234ee)

  58. actus

    Maybe you ought to take up your complaint about the “foreignization” of Latinos/Hispanics/nom du jour with people like LA Mayor Villaraigosa who stated “we are all immigrants!”

    The Mexican flags carried during these demonstrations was not a matter of pride of heritage. You seem to be the only one that refuses to understand that.

    Darleen (f20213)

  59. Actus

    A pretty effective one too

    You may actually be right, as people are seeing that the pro-illegals are really anti-American in their basic sentiments.

    Darleen (f20213)

  60. BTW… It seems some of the Saturday demonstrations were organized by the far-Left anti-American “The World Can’t Wait” who was not shy in using the Hitler card

    “Attacks on immigrants are one cornerstone of the whole program of war and repression, hate and intolerance that this regime is putting into place. People look at this and think of Hitler — and they are right to do so,” reads a statement from the group.

    Niiiiiice

    Darleen (f20213)

  61. Maybe you ought to take up your complaint about the “foreignization” of Latinos/Hispanics/nom du jour with people like LA Mayor Villaraigosa who stated “we are all immigrants!”

    Aren’t we? But that foreignization of his seems to be quite inclusive. I don’t think the one targetting latinos is. Its got more of a context of us v. them.

    The Mexican flags carried during these demonstrations was not a matter of pride of heritage. You seem to be the only one that refuses to understand that.

    Rather, I seem to one wiht a flag of my heritage that I do wave above the US flag at certain times. Notably, world cup soccer. I know what its for.

    Flags stand for a lot, and their meaning changes quite a bit with context. When someone thinks their mexican heritage is being pissed on by people in the US government, the US flag will bow to their heritage. That doesn’t put corrupt mexican government practices above, say, the first amendment.

    Just like people that put danish flags on their blogs don’t mean that they want to be in a scandinavian welfare state with legal gay marriage. Just like people that wave italian flags at columbus day parades don’t mean that they want genocide again, or that they want the US to have a system of government like italy, where a man that owns massive TV interests is in charge.

    We’re smart enough to figure this out. But the totalist wants simple answers: “they waved the flags,” “their entire presence here is illegitemate.” etc…

    actus (6234ee)

  62. Aren’t we (all immigrants)?

    I’m not.

    Xrlq (f3e552)

  63. I’m not.

    I think he’s talking about being descendants from immigrants. He was born in the US.

    actus (6234ee)

  64. He was, but at the same time he was deliberately conflating two separate concepts: immigrants and non-immigrants.

    Xrlq (f3e552)

  65. Kevin,
    Actually, I would agree that most mexican’s that come here have a good work ethic(legal or illegal), but as always not all of them are that way. Also, I have no problems with the people being here, in fact I am for an open door policy with some caviots (no quotas though). Being illegal is the issue.

    galletador (b58eba)

  66. He was, but at the same time he was deliberately conflating two separate concepts: immigrants and non-immigrants.

    That’s precisely the point he’s making.

    actus (ebc508)

  67. Actus:

    Are you saying Latinos will be cheering for team USA in Germany 2006? Which is the better team?

    World Cup Qualifiers – USA Mexico tied by points. Each wins by one goal at home in head to head.

    Copa de Oro: USA champions. Mexico defeated in quarterfinals. (OK played in the US)

    Last 9 games head to head USA 6, Mexico 2, tie 1.

    Who’s got the better soccer team?

    And, back on topic, illegal immigration is clearly very good for the prospects of USA Soccer.

    nittypig (4c1c43)

  68. Who’s got the better soccer team?

    I think they’ll switch as needed.

    actus (6234ee)

  69. Mr X wrote:

    Aren’t we (all immigrants)?

    I’m not.

    To which actus responded:

    I’m not.

    I think he’s talking about being descendants from immigrants. He was born in the US.

    Since my family arrived on this hemisphere before the United States was born (they came over on the Mayflower), does that make me a native American?

    Dana (dd8e7e)

  70. […] Dwilkers wrote this comment on Patterico’s Pontifications, on the topic Accepted Wisdom on Immigration, A Reprise: What bothers me about the immigration debate is people are reacting to it the same way they did to the Dubai ports deal – out of emotion. It doesn’t appear to me that many people are actually considering the implications of deporting 10 million people or erecting a Berlin Wall style barrier between the US and Mexico (and Canada also I presume). […]

    Common Sense Political Thought » Blog Archive » The Immigration Conundrum (819604)

  71. I used a comment from Dwilkers as a starting point for a pretty long article, The Immigration Conundrum, on my website. My conclusion is that if we are really serious about stopping illegal immigration, we must attack it from the demand side, by taking the profit out of using illegal labor — and that would require some very draconian measures to accomplish.

    Dana (dd8e7e)

  72. Some of my ancestors came over 10-12,000 years ago from Asia and some came over 300 years ago from two other continents. Does that make me a native American ;)?

    Charles D. Quarles (df82ab)

  73. Since my family arrived on this hemisphere before the United States was born (they came over on the Mayflower), does that make me a native American?

    Just make sure you get rid of everyone that was there when the mayflower arrived, and then nobody has to know they weren’t there first.

    actus (6234ee)

  74. The American National Anthem

    Oh Jose cant you see, we’re tired of supporting thee.

    When you snuck acrossed the border, it began an illegal plight.

    Over broad stripes and bright stars, We’ll continue to Fight.

    Mexican Flags we did watch, that were so sadly streaming.

    Our tempers did flare, with Mexican’s everywhere.

    Gave proof to the nite, we must send them back there.

    O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave.

    For the land of the U. S. Citizen and the home of the American’s.

    written and produced by U.S. Citizens
    Made In America

    American (37b2a5)

  75. #15 The key piece (IMNSHO) would be a website that allows one to enter ‘Name, SSN, Company Name, Company’s “Employer ID Number”‘ and get back ‘VALID’ or ‘INVALID’.

    Agreed that absent a reliable method of verifying the validity of SSNs the notion of employer sanctions is a joke. However, it need not be a web site. It should function the way retailers verify credit cards at the time of purchase.

    #17 Al – given the existence of such a website, what recourse would a citizen have if the data were some how incorrectly entered or hacked, and they were reported as not being legally able to work when in fact they were?

    The same way you correct erroneous credit card information.

    #39 Would that poor native-born Americans had the same work ethic as most immigrants…and please spare me the minimum wage rhetoric. If you want to find a group that is LESS likely to have their hand out for the dole, you’d be hard pressed to find one.

    Agreed. Today (Saturday) I was at Home Depot buying a garbage disposer. An illegal came up to me and said (I think) “I help fix your house?” He approached everyone he could in the parking lot. While I was there everyone shook their head, No. But I don’t doubt he will eventually find work and become successful. Neither his poor English nor the high rate of rejection deterred him.

    Stu707 (18fdc8)


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