Patterico's Pontifications

1/2/2006

Who Knows FAA Regulations?

Filed under: Real Life,Scum — Patterico @ 10:57 pm



Does anyone know any lawyers with expertise in FAA regulations? Our flight was delayed 3 hours due to mechanical failure, and as a result our entire family (me, my wife, and our two kids) missed our connection. We were put on standby for the next flight, didn’t make it, and were told that the next flight with guaranteed seating is Thursday evening — and that trying standby between now and then will almost certainly be a waste of time. The airline flatly refused to put us on another airline or give us a hotel or meal voucher.

My wife and I will lose three days of work each. We will almost certainly have to file an action in small claims court to get repaid for that. We would really appreciate any help readers could give in pointing us to an attorney with expertise in such matters — ideally (but not necessarily) someone who could advise us pro bono.

Thanks.

P.S. Never, ever fly AirTran. I know, I know; you get what you pay for. Spare me the recriminations. We feel bad enough as it is.

P.P.S. To those who suggest we simply should have booked a non-stop flight: we did. Between Dallas and L.A. It was changed to a one-stop connecting through Atlanta. No, I am not joking.

Do not fly AirTran.

P.P.P.S. One thing apparently will be getting to L.A. safe and sound: our luggage, which we won’t see until Friday.

42 Responses to “Who Knows FAA Regulations?”

  1. Rule 240.
    On request the carrier is oblibated to sign over your ticket so that it may be used on any carrier. Non-weather delays also have the provisions for hotel/meal vouchers.

    Rule 240. Look it up.

    USCitizen (7e594a)

  2. Rule 240 is no longer valid — so says the FAA.

    Greg (51b069)

  3. Try this weblink for a quick overview of 240. It’s a bit dated (still has a link to TWA), but not bad.

    http://www.mytravelrights.com/travellaw.cfm?ai=3

    He’s also an attorney, but I’m not sure I’d want one with an out-of-date website.

    You might also want to look at AirTran’s Contract of Carriage:

    http://www.airtranairways.com/common/PDF/AirTran_Contract_of_Carriage.pdf

    Good luck!

    Mill Creek Don (4dfcb3)

  4. Hey,
    Found this website when looking for info on your flight. Too lawyerly for me, but you probably can figure out how to use the info! 🙂

    http://www.courts.state.ny.us/tandv/flightdelays.html

    susan (6cea0e)

  5. I work in airline support for a regional jet manufacturer. The FAA has nothing to do with the commercial fallout from flight delays. They are responsible for ensuring public safety while promoting the growth of aviation. Their influence does not extend to an airline’s delay/cancellation problems as long as the airline is not sending unsafe aircraft into the air. When our operators have high delay/cancellation rates they don’t generally worry about the FAA (if they have a compliant maintenance system) as much as their own bottom line impact as they lose customers.

    John (11b9e1)

  6. My experiences with AirTran have been excellent. Unfortunately, I think the major problems crop up when you book connecting flights. As a result, I haven’t flown out of my local airport for 5+ years, and instead have opted for the 80-minute drive to BWI Airport, where the flights are direct and the fares are lower.

    RHB (fbae5a)

  7. […] I thought American Airlines sucked, but right now Patterico and his entire family are stranded for three days because Air Tran couldn’t get their act together for three hours.  Apparently, Air Tran’s business model is so crappy they actually planned for this sort of thing.  From their “contract of carriage,” which you’ve almost certainly never seen but have presumably “signed” every time you boarded one of their planes, take a gander at Sections A, C and E,  Right of the Carrier and Limits on Liability for Delay or Failure to Perform Service, Including Schedule Changes, Substitution of Alternate Aircraft and Rerouting: […]

    damnum absque injuria (38c04c)

  8. All lawyers should be forced to work pro bono every hour, every day, for the rest of their working lives.

    Justice Frankfurter (2dcd84)

  9. Hell of a way to start the year, Patterico. I empathize. My wife and I had a similar experience on American in early December. On top of that they temporarily lost our luggage. They did deliver it to us the next day. I think the only way to avoid this kind of problem is to fly direct, non-stop. I realize that is not always possible. Any time you have connecting flights there is a good chance you will miss your connection especially in winter.

    Stu707 (18fdc8)

  10. I think the only way to avoid this kind of problem is to fly direct, non-stop. I realize that is not always possible.

    Unless you’re the CEO of the airline in question, it is never possible. Booking a nonstop flight does not guarantee actually getting one.

    [Correct. See P.P.S. to post. We *did* book a non-stop flight, L.A. to Dallas. It was changed to a one-stop connecting through Atlanta. Not kidding. That’s how this “airline” does business. And a manager looked me in the eye and said he was not going to give us a hotel voucher, because the lady next to me said “g-ddamn” to another passenger in frustration. Ergo, he didn’t like our attitude, ergo he was “done with” us. Scum, pure and simple. — Patterico]

    Xrlq (816c74)

  11. OMG – it seems that everyone flying in the U.S. has to go through Atlanta ! Insanity!

    I think that Consumer Reports might have some information for you. I’d look it up for you, but I’m in a rush.

    Incidentally, my old screen name “Tillman” is gone with 2005. I don’t want anyone to think I am related to Pat Tillman and trying to exploit the family name. So the new name is Psyberian since I was a psych major and have and love Siberian Huskies. Cool dogs.

    Psyberian (1cf529)

  12. Just an update on contract of carriage. Some airlines still have CoC’s that provide for specified relief for irregular ops. For example, NW (my preferred airline) has provisions for endorsing over a ticket for use on another airline – buried deep in the 100+ page document. The Big 6 all established customer service standards after the Detroit broohaha where pax were sitting on the tarmac for hours without food and water. They incorporated them into their CoC’s as a way to head off a congressionally imposed “Passenger’s Bill of Rights” – and it worked, as no PBOR was passed. The LCC’s (Low Cost Carriers) stayed under the radar avoiding these standards.

    I have a copy of NW’s CoC stored on my laptop – and have noted appropriate sections for my future use. Sure, it’s a pain, but then again, chance favors the well-prepared. I suggest that for any other frequent (or not so frequent) flyers.

    Mill Creek Don (4dfcb3)

  13. Atlanta is the AIRPORT OF DEATH.

    I had to sleep there several times because Atlantic Southeast Airlines (ASA, more like ASS am i rite?) couldn’t get its shit together and have a plane take off.

    My favorite, personal experience at Atlanta is as follows:

    1030: Board plane (1055 pm takeoff)
    1100: Pilot announces that we’re third in line for takeoff.
    1115: Pilot announces that they’ve decided it would be good to de-ice plane.
    1130: Pilot announces that we’re #9 in line for de-icing. Jesus Christ.
    130: We are now number four in line for de-icing.
    200: The plane runs out of fuel from idling while waiting for deicing, and must go refuel.
    215: We are again number 9 in line for de-icing because we got out of line.
    300: The flight is cancelled. ASS will try again in the morning.

    I hate Atlanta’s airport.

    Angry Clam (fa7fff)

  14. So, wait, are you chilling it Atlanta right now?

    You could always make a trip up to Clam Hollow for a day or two.

    Angry Clam (fa7fff)

  15. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c106:H.R.700:

    Why, oh why, didn’t this get passed?

    Angry Clam (fa7fff)

  16. That’s the PBOR that was not passed due to the Big 6 saying “You don’t need to do that….see, we’re putting “rights” into our contracts on our own”. Again, you are in pretty good shape with the Big 6; it’s with AirTran, JetBlue, Frontier that you might have a problem. The only way to know is to look for the CoC on the airline website. And then to know your contractual rights when it hits the fan.

    Mill Creek Don (4dfcb3)

  17. The former Mr Tillman wrote:

    Incidentally, my old screen name “Tillman” is gone with 2005. I don’t want anyone to think I am related to Pat Tillman and trying to exploit the family name. So the new name is Psyberian since I was a psych major and have and love Siberian Huskies. Cool dogs.

    I knew it, he’s a freaking Commie! He loves Russian dogs. And a psycho major as well?

    Dana (3e4784)

  18. I feel for you Patterico. But it’s no different in other places.

    We were in Argentina a couple weeks ago with tickets on Aerolineas Argentinas to fly from Buenos Aires to Bariloche. A recent airline worker strike had been settled, but apparently not all employees were happy about it as what greeted us at the airport was a ‘booth’ placarded with hate signs re Aerolineas Argentinas. I don’t speak Spanish, but it was very clear what they were saying.

    Since the crew did not show up for our early flight, we were bumped to the next flight. No problem. We waited. And it was very interesting.

    I’m sitting there in this immaculately clean lobby (cleanest airport in the world) hearing a plethora of languages – all mad. The woman behind me, a Canadian, was complaining about having boarded a flight the preceding evening. They had boarded several hours late, it was almost eleven o’clock when they took off. They had flown two hours of a two and one half hour flight only to be turned back to BA at one a.m. And here she had been sitting – and no new flight had been announced.

    Several people were sleeping on the floor, strewn across loungers, propped against walls. A crowd gathered near the check-in stand where two fairly haggard and sheepish looking workers began to take tickets for our flight. This created some sort of furor, as one woman’s strident cries was echoed first by one then still other angry voices.

    I felt the hair raise on the back of my neck as I was holding a ticket for the flight which would require my walking through that gauntlet.

    I don’t speak Spanish. I understood perfectly the indignation and rage of that mob. It coalesced and they began shouting in unison (sorry it was in spanish) and clapping loudly.

    Long story short, we made the flight. And the plane food was great. We were lucky. And of course we altered our round trip to return to BA earlier so we’d be back on time – taking into consideration the inevitable delays.

    One big difference. In Argentina the airline employees were respectful and courteous in unbelievable circumstances. I was frankly amazed considering what passes for customer service here.

    Kathy (59cee4)

  19. You’re pretty much toast on the law. The FAA links to another site which (accurately) says that the only mandated payments are for overbooking.

    A quick look at AirTran’s contract says they can alter or omit stopping places; it doesn’t say they can *add* stops. This is a weird oversight in a contract clearly designed to crush the passengers like the pesky insects they are. This might give you an opening (I haven’t read the whole contract, and might have missed something.)

    If you could show a pattern of essentially fraudulent dealings, that might work; the contract conveys an implied promise to deliver you from one place to another, and AirTran knows it can’t or won’t deliver some large percentage of those people (if this is true; they might just be screwing you.)

    There’s always B&P 17500, but you’ll need to have friends in your consumer protection division, and that’s probably not a good idea.

    If it’s any consolation, I ain’t flying AirTran ever. Good luck. I hope you make them unhappy.

    –JRM

    JRM (de6363)

  20. Try looking up your local ACDO, Air Carrier District Office. I think in California it’s in Hawthorne. Royal Air Maroc is more efficient than these bonzos it would appear.

    gatorbait (dd6fa3)

  21. It all depends on the carrier. A couple years ago a friend was flying business class LAX-London on Delta on an upgrade. The plane was broke, so they put him on the next flight out in the only available seat: British Airways First Class.

    Looking at AirTrans contract, it seems you’re SOL. Buy other tickets and never fly them again. You certainly can’t sue them for incidental damages, and it really seems like they only do what the are mandated to do and nothing more.

    Kevin Murphy (6a7945)

  22. We got stuck in Atlanta on Monday, too. Bad weather, I guess. We were on Delta.

    Spoons (68d828)

  23. Boo, Hoo, Hoo. Nothing mechanical ever breaks and if it does, better not be when you’re around. You should thank your lucky stars it wasn’t some airline that made the takeoff with a faulty aircraft and killed you and your family.

    [If you think my complaint is solely over waiting for a mechanical issue to be fixed then you can’t read or you’re stupid or both. With those reasoning skills and that empathetic attitude, I’m guessing you’re an AirTran employee. — Patterico]

    scrapiron (8d0335)

  24. A few years back, I was checking in on AirTran and was told my carry-on was too large, despite the fact that it fit in the box they had at their counter.
    I was told to make my bag smaller. My complaint that doing so would mean I’d have to check valuable camera equipment fell on deaf ears. And I complained quite vociferously.
    In order to board the plane, I was forced to put my new $600 digital camera, various lenses and my CD book in my checked baggage. My laptop and old camera remained in my carry-on.
    When I arrived at my destination, my bag came out on the carousel unzipped. When I looked inside, my camera, lenses and CDs were gone.
    I immediately went to the AirTran desk where I was told to call customer service. After waiting on hold for 45 minutes and being transferred three times, I finally got a manager on the phone. When I explained my story, I received no sympathy and was curtly told AirTran isn’t responsible for electronic theft. Confused, I asked if AirTran would take responsibility if, say, a diamond bracelet was stolen from my bag. I was told that, yes, they would.
    “So, you’re pretty much telling me AirTran advocates the theft of electronics from checked baggage,” I asked.
    “No,” the manager replied, “we just aren’t responsible if it happens.”
    “And your employees know this?”
    “I suppose they do,” he said.
    I received no apology that day until I talked to a supervisor, and only then after I vowed never to fly AirTran again and to tell every person I know to do the same.
    I’m sorry you had to find out the hard way about the evils of AirTran.

    Chris Chase (1e219d)

  25. I was stuck with over a 5 hr wait because the plane was already late about an hour then we had 10 minutes of bad weather which was enough to cause our flight crew to go over their active hours. We waited 3-4 more hours for a new flight crew.

    Everyone blamed it on the weather so they escaped responsiblity.

    jpm100 (06f700)

  26. Chris–

    I don’t know that I’d blame AirTran for stealing your camera — the TSA has been rife with theft of that sort, and refusing to reimburse airlines when they paid out to coever it.

    Kevin Murphy (6a7945)

  27. #27 Chris: oh, come now⁄! The TSA is professiona because they are Federal Employees! To professionalise you must federalise! Wasn’t it Daschle or one of the other union aploogists who lobbied so hard to make airport security a Fed job?

    Government employees would NEVER steal.

    /sarc

    the friendly grizzly (a77ea8)

  28. JPM100 – that reminds me of the grudge I hold against America West, which managed to fuck up *four flights* in one week.

    The problem began with the flight from Oakland to Pheonix. I arrived about forty five minutes before flight departure (this was pre-9/11), and it was clear from the check in line that there was no way to make it through the line before the flight departed, so i went straight to the gate. I needn’t have; the flight didn’t leave until more than an hour late. They did make me gate check the bag I’d intended to check (but hadn’t because I had shown up too late to successfully check in before departure); this was to some extent my fault for not allocating more time (although, in my defense, I was used to Southwest, for which I could show up fifteen minutes before the flight and get on it, back when my mom was dying of lung cancer).

    The connecting flight out of Pheonix, to Dallas, was delayed. By four hours. For no apparent reason. (The weather was fine in Pheonix). My brother, whom I hadn’t seen in years, was flying to Dallas from LA, and was in the airport; so we hung out and chatted, so it wasn’t nearly as annoying as it could have been.

    My luggage did not arrive in Dallas. The gate check had failed; it was still in Oakland. It came the next day.

    My flight back from Dallas to Pheonix left at 7am, so I got to the airport at 6. While I was in line to check in, I was told that the flight would be delayed for an hour because the flight crew had gotten in too late last night and there was a minimum rest period imposed by the FAA. When I enquired as to what this meant for my connecting flight, the gate attendant responded with “It’s not our fault. The FAA won’t let us make them fly.”

    What, you WOULD make an insufficiently rested crew fly? That response instantly filled my addled just-woken-up-insufficiently-caffeinated brain with terror.

    When I arrived in Pheonix, a few minutes before my connecting flight was supposed to leave, I raced to the departure gate. My plane was sitting there, outside the gate, with luggage being loaded on it. It had already boarded. There were no gate attendants anywhere. When I finally tracked one down, he explained that – despite the fact that the plane was still sitting at the gate, boarding was closed, and proceded to lecture me about how I should have been there on time. I grumbled about how not being there on time was America West’s fault, while the plane pulled away in front of me, and he offered me a $300 voucher for a different America West flight.

    I declined.

    I caught the next flight to Oakland, only to discover that my luggage wasn’t on that flight. An enquiry at the baggage office revealed that IT HAD BEEN LOADED ON MY ORIGINAL FLIGHT. They had held the plane to load connecting baggage while not holding it to load connecting passengers.

    🙁

    aphrael (6b0647)

  29. JPM100 – I don’t want to speak for Patterico, but I didn’t take his complaint as being about the mechanical failure per se, but rather about the poor customer service he received after the mechanical failure. If the airline is unable to provide him with service until Thursday, it should either:

    (a) offer to find a seat for him and his family on another airline;
    (b) put him up in the hotel and pay for his meals until they are able to provide him with service.

    It would be one thing if he missed his plane because he was late. It’s quite another if he missed it because they had mechanical trouble and then chose not to hold the connecting flight. Right now, he’s paying out of pocket for hotel costs for multiple nights because of the airline’s problem; they should reimburse him for that cost, preferably with a smile on their face.

    aphrael (6b0647)

  30. I flew AirTran last week and experienced a similar incident in Atlanta. The customer service in Atlanta was terrible and the integrity of the gate agents was less than nil. I had a direct flight from NY to Colorado with a stop in Atlanta to pick up Atlanta passangers. Upon landing in Atlanta our plane was redirected to Tampa and I was asked to deplane. I was travelling alone with two young children (2&4)After 3 gate changes(in three terminals), I arrived to the gate to be informed that I did not have a seat. I was left in Atlanta with no flight home, two children, no stroller and a lack of supplies due to the fact I was supposed to be in Colorado in less than 4 hours. The gate agent (and the supervisor on duty that day) “simply” looked in the wrong screen for my information. Only to be told by another agent when the doors closed that I did in fact have three seats. I watched the supervisor give my seats away to stand by passangers who might have needed the seats more than me….they had been bumped off a flight the night before. United took me home at 4:30.

    Stacy Godby (b04625)

  31. …and they wonder why they can’t make money!

    Let me get this straight.

    1. They funnel flights into a hub saddled with a finite number of runways with regulated departure/arrival spacing;
    2. They pay their help as little as possible thus creating an atmosphere conducive to stealing;
    (I wonder if the checkout person tipped off the baggage handler about the electronic equipment now stowed in the French Luggage coming down the chute?)
    3. During the winter it is a complete surprise that in the time it takes to de-ice the plane the gas tanks must be topped off. Gee, why don’t they top the tanks off while the plane is being hosed?)

    4. Flight crews that aren’t rested for a given flight should be replaced with crews off the extra board who are rested. I wonder if the crews are “tieing up”, or whatever they call it, for undisturbed rest (12 hours?) when the carrier could put them on duty in 8 or 10 hours.
    5. I wonder how much of aircraft maintenance is performed by sub-contract mechanics making $20 an hour? I’ll bet they are a motivated bunch!
    6. Treasury Secretary Snow is off the CSX railroad. Cheney is off the Union Pacific. Let’s see; Railroads, Airlines, Buses! Do you suppose the top brass of these transportation providers think they have an in with the regulatory agencies?

    NAH…

    vet66 (8d0335)

  32. My second thoughts on this situation: Consider suing AirTrans in Small Claims Court for your and your wife’s lost wages. I don’t pretend to know whether or not this is legally possible.

    My guess is that they would settle with you rather than risk a loss. I doubt that Small Claims decisions have any value as legal precedent. They might reason that since you and your wife are attorneys they would have to send someone to represent them that knew something about the law rather than a low level manager. The cost of defending the suit might be an incentive for them to settle.

    Stu707 (18fdc8)

  33. Clam, please don’t hold it against me but I flew for ASA many years ago. Not that I disagree with anything in your post. Your assessment is predominantly correct. Our customer service was often horrendous and the crew had to try to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear on far too many occasions.

    I would guess, though, that there is more to the story, from the pilot’s point of view at least, than you were told. In some cases we pilots know it’s senseless to try to keep up with the icing but are required by the company to “give it a try” anyway. Sometimes there’s just too much precip falling and there is no amount of deicing that will solve the problem – it’s only good for a limited amount of time, known as “holdover time” and then you have to do it again, and often, again, and …. In Atlanta in particular, the lines can be very long. I have personally sat in line for more than 3 hours waiting for bad weather to clear.

    vet, I’m also in agreement with your general comments about many low cost carriers except that it isn’t possible to fuel an airplane while deicing. They are mutually exclusive events for several reasons, first of which is safety. I think my comments to clam above might give you another context for the deicing dilema.

    Personally, if I have a choice I always travel on jetBlue if they have a route anywhere in the vicinity of where I’m headed.

    In my opinion jetBlue does almost everything better than anyone else, with the possible sole exception of Southwest. They have large overhead luggage space, the crews are friendly and helpful, they don’t tend to overbook, their web site is easy to use, good fares, etc, etc. Even when I was once diverted from Long Beach to LAX due to weather, they gave me a $50 voucher for future travel for my inconvenience and bused us to Long Beach.

    The key in post 9/11 America is to show up early and expect delays. Unfortunately this wouldn’t have helped Pat. Doubly unfortunately, Pat’s experience should not have happened and the gate agent should not have acted so arbitrarily. Inexcusable! The airlines in general have not connected the dots that the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is how well you take care of your customer.

    Mechanical and weather delays are unfortunately a reality. What sets the jetBlues and Southwests aparts from the also-rans is their response to the inevitable problem and the way they present that response to the public. Unfortunately, these particular AirTran employees, and AirTran in general could have spent just a little time, effort and really just a few cents to create some good will ambassadors for their company. I’m convinced a small investment of this sort would have returned handsome profits in good will person-to-person advertising. Unfortunately they chose to step over a dollar to pick up a nickel.

    Harry Arthur (b318a5)

  34. Contact AOPA. They have a superb staff of attorneys that field questions.

    Robert (bbd1fc)

  35. My real problem was that they decided to deice after loading us all in. I would have much preferred to be in the terminal for those four hours than on the airplane (where, keep in mind, the climate control had to be shut off) while awaiting the deicing, which we never got.

    Angry Clam (fa7fff)

  36. Patterico,

    Steve Lopez wrote about losing $2,000 from his bank account by fraud, and his bank will not cover the loss. He would not mention what bank he is using, they must be an advertiser in the Los Angeles Times?

    As a consumer I would like to thank you for revealing the name of the carrier. I will avoid AirTran because of your experience.

    All companies that are honest with their customers earn my business.

    Ed

    Edward Padgett (59bdae)

  37. Is the Passenger Air Travel System Collapsing?

    This news might not bother me so much if not for Angry Clam's recent experience with AirTran.

    The final month of 2005 saw passenger traffic fall at Delta Air Lines but soar at discount competitor AirTran Airways.» AJC: Delta traffic down as…

    Yippee-Ki-Yay! (d4c144)

  38. I agree with Harry – JetBlue is awesome. Unfortunately, they don’t go everywhere, which is probably why their fares are so low. In particular, they don’t go to Dallas/Fort Worth or Atlanta, so they weren’t an option for this trip. Also not an option was Southwest, which has plenty of planes at Love Field, but is prohited by law from flying (or even booking connecting flights) from there to California, or almost any other state except Texas and the states that border on it. Thus, the only real options are to suck it up and fly an overpriced dinosaur airline like American, as I did on my last trip there, or to take your life into your hands and fly Valujet, as Patterico did.

    Just out of curiosity, Patterico: when you booked your flight with AirTran, did you realize that you were actually flying on ValuJet? I had no idea they were the same airline until Aphrael pointed that out in the comment thread on my blog. Then I felt rather silly for having bitched and moaned so much over their lousy customer service, which appears to be the least of their problems. Even the mechanical failure that caused your 3 hour / 3 day delay may not have been a coincidence, as that airline appears to have a pattern of shoddy maintenance that didn’t end in 1996. I can’t believe those guys are still in business.

    Xrlq (6c76c4)

  39. […] Did you know that AirTran is really ValuJet operating under a different name? (No joke.) I sure didn’t when I booked my recent flight. Thanks to Xrlq for bringing it to my attention. […]

    Patterico’s Pontifications » AirTran: It’s Really ValuJet (421107)

  40. XRLQ – I fly to Dallas at least once a year, sometimes more. From the bay area, american is usually the best bet; it’s cheaper than the other old-model airlines, and san jose and dallas are both hubs.

    aphrael (6b0647)

  41. If anyone can help…

    I went to the ticket counter to buy a plane ticket from Houston to Minneapolis and booked it for the next week. I then had problems arise and was unable to get on the flight, and unaware that I needed to contact AIRTRAN prior to an hour. Well when I called days later to get at least credit or a refund for the plane ticket, it’s considered forfeited! In other words they have my money that I didn’t fly on the plane, so why can’t they refund me? I know it’s something I didn’t know on my part, but still is there anyway I can get that money back? I talked to the representatives and they told me no. But I don’t think this is fair. Can anyone help, thanks!

    frustratedgrl (e63fdc)


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