See-Dubya: Release unto us Barrabas
I suspect the execution of Tookie Williams is a coverup by sinister forces within the intel community. After all, as no less an authority than Rep. Maxine Waters has informed us:
“The origin of the crack cocaine trade in this country was led and designed by the CIA and their paid Nicaraguan agents — who introduced crack cocaine to South-Central Los Angeles,” proclaimed Waters as the hearing began. “The consequences of this wholesale dumping of cocaine into inner cities by CIA-organized agents has been widespread homelessness, violence, the destruction of families, and death.”
Rep. Waters cited a series of articles in the San Jose Mercury News, from August 18 – 20, 1996, authored by reporter Gary Webb, which documented the connection between U.S. foreign policy in the 1980s, international drug traffickers, and crack cocaine’s origins in South-Central Los Angeles. The drug trade subsequently spread to many other inner city neighborhoods in the United States.
The implication of Waters’ bombshell is that Tookie, founder of the Crips gang that sold so much of that cocaine in South Central, must have been a CIA operative and an important cog in their wheel of destruction. When he is executed, knowledge of the plot will die with him.
Okay seriously, back on planet Earth now:
Why is the Left so up in arms to save this guy? I mean, he’s not political. Mumia I can see. Mumia was all Black Panthered up and shot a cop to further the revolution. Same with Leonard Peltier, gunning down an FBI agent up in the Dakotas. Progressives eat that crap up. These guys are ‘political prisoners’ and ‘martyrs’. Sure, whatever. It’s pernicious hogwash, but I can understand why those with a Guevara-smooching revolutionary worldview might want to believe in these guys.
But Tookie–Tookie is an exploitative capitalist. Tookie–oh, screw that cute little nickname, he sounds like an f’n Care Bear–Stanley Williams is a robber baron. Let me elaborate.
When Ken Lay was under investigation for overcharging California utilities for energy in 2001, Democratic Attorney General Bill Lockyer fantasized about personally escorting “Lay to an 8-by-10 cell that he could share with a tattooed dude who says, ‘Hi, my name is Spike, honey.”‘
Ken Lay is a crook and his crimes were manifold and manifest. But one of his major crimes in the Left’s eyes was running an exploitative, ruthless business empire that operated above the law. Enron crowded authentic people out of their homelands to build the Narmada River Dam in India, for example, and activists were outraged by this attack on the voiceless and the powerless.
Let’s look beyond the four voiceless, powerless people that Stanley Williams blew away. Let’s look at the capitalist empire he founded and that continues today in several countries at the expense of the voiceless and powerless. From the L.A. County District Attorney’s report (linked below by Patterico):
In 1971, Stanley Williams, along with Raymond Lee Washington, founded one of the
most violent and predatory street gangs ever known, the Crips. As a result of Williams’
actions, this gang is now active throughout the United States, as well as other countries across
the globe. This gang is responsible for the regular commission of crimes such as murder, rape,
robbery, and drug sales. The gang has taken over large areas of many of our communities. As
a result, hard-working, law abiding citizens are forced to live in daily fear that gang members
might take their lives.
In 2004 alone, in the City of Los Angeles alone, gang-related crimes accounted for 291
homicides, 717 attempted homicides, 2616 felony assaults, 61 attacks on police officers, 2308
robberies, 44 kidnappings, 36 rapes, 754 acts of witness intimidation, 20 acts of extortion, and
188 carjackings. (P. Exh. 5). Of course, these statistics only cover those crimes in which the
victim was brave enough to contact the police. Many more victims, acting under the fear of
gang retaliation, never even contact the authorities. Instead, they simply continue living in
submissive fear of the gang members that control their communities.
Although Stanley Williams is not directly responsible for every gang crime committed
today, he was an integral founding member of a gang that has contributed, and continues to
contribute, to the gang problem with devastating force. This plague on our society continues to
spread, and continues to take lives on a daily basis. Williams unleashed this violence in no less
a manner than if he had released a deadly virus into our communities.
All the misplaced fantasist rage directed at the CIA by conspiracy theorists like U.S. Congresswoman Maxine Waters rightfully belongs on Stanley Williams. Williams is the Ken Lay of Cocaine, a man who built a corporate structure that enslaves , impoverishes, and exploits Americans–especially, but certainly not exclusively, their own African-American neighbors (and on the supply end, thousands of Latin Americans as well.) But unlike a corporation that relies on the courts to enforce its contracts or settle disputes with competitors, the Crips rely on shotguns, switchblades, and ball bats. They don’t exactly pay their enforcers, molls, bagmen, lookouts and runners minimum wage and give them primo health benefits, either. They’re even worse than Wal-Mart, I hear.
Yes, the Crips are robber barons ten million times worse than Enron or Wal-Mart, and as Rep. Waters and Steve Cooley well know, they have now preyed on generations of poor and marginalized Americans. The Crips, and the gangs that emulate them, enmesh thousands of young men in violent, thuggish lives without grace or dignity which will likely land them in jail or on a slab–and which in turn stirs up resentment and racism in the rest of America. These gangs sell a product infinitely more dangerous and damning than the Big Macs Morgan Spurlock and the French get all snotty about–a product that doesn’t (gasp!) make you fat, but merely smothers your will and your humanity until you become a mindless consumer willing to betray any creed or any trust for your next fix.
This is Stanley Williams’ legacy. I could see how perhaps a militant Ayn Randian libertarian or a Nietzschian might admire it, but it is the antithesis of every progressive ideal. And instead of clamoring for justice to be meted against him, progressive activists plead for his life…
…and nominate him for a Nobel F–king Peace Prize.
Luke 23: 18-19—And they cried out all at once, saying, Away with this man, and release unto us Barabbas: (Who for a certain sedition made in the city, and for murder, was cast into prison.)
I’m not sure there is such a thing as a “milititant Ayn Randian,” but I do know that to have any admiration for the enterprise created by Stanley Williams is to be so far removed from anything Rand wrote such a person could be called neither “Randian” nor Objectivist.
Stephen Macklin (103410) — 12/3/2005 @ 5:06 amI don’t get it – how could this be “Nietzschian?” Tookie’s no superman.
Tillman (1cf529) — 12/3/2005 @ 7:48 amAny comments on this?
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20403
Scandal Erupts at the L.A. Times
By Jan Golab
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 2, 2005
Times are bad at the L.A. Times. Competition from new media and “a lingering feeling of bias” continue to plague the paper and drive down circulation. Editors John Carroll, Michael Kinsley and leftist icon Robert Scheer have all recently been sent packing. Now, the once venerable paper faces a scandal of Jayson Blair proportions, one that may topple key players—including a Pulitzer Prize winner—and permanently sully its reputation.
…
Molon Labe (21b7bb) — 12/3/2005 @ 8:09 amYou’re not sure that there’s such a thing as a militant Randroid?
Man, you haven’t seen these people. Think of the all-encompassing hatred for the world of a radical Islamist, mixed with the self-righteousness of Operation Rescue, and throw in some angry atheism that would make Michael Newdow blush.
Angry Clam (a7c6b1) — 12/3/2005 @ 9:19 amMaxine Waters neglects to mention the cocaine Tookie’s Crips sold was imported by Bill Clinton at his Mena, Arkansas airfield.
Black Jack (ee9fe2) — 12/3/2005 @ 10:08 amI loved the full-page ad defending Williams in the L.A. Times today. In the short bio of him we’re told he founded the Crips in order to protect his family and friends in S.C. L.A. And not only has he been nominated for the Nobel Peace prize (no less than 5 times), he’s also been nominated for the Pulitzer prize 4 times. It also says he has spoken to school children, teachers, etc., etc., about the dangers of gang-life. Since when are murderers on death row allowed to talk to school children?
Jackie Warner (41f17a) — 12/3/2005 @ 10:19 amGary Webb bio:
“Gary Webb was born in Corona, California, in 1955. Webb worked for several newspapers including The Kentucky Post and Cleveland Plain Dealer. Webb became a staff reporter for the San Jose Mercury News in 1988.
“An investigative journalist, Webb became interested in the covert activities of the Central Intelligence Agency. Webb created a great of controversy when in 1996 he wrote a series of articles claiming that supporters of a CIA-backed guerrilla army in Nicaragua helped trigger America’s crack-cocaine epidemic in the 1980s.
“Three of the America’s leading newspapers, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post, followed up with reports questioning Webb’s conclusions. The San Jose Mercury News came under considerable pressure for publishing these stories and in 1997 Webb left the newspaper. Webb published Dark Alliance: The CIA, the Contras and the Crack Cocaine Explosion in 1998.
“Webb worked in the California Assembly Speaker’s Office of Member Services and for the Joint Legislative Audit Committee. In 2003 Webb began work for the Sacramento News and Review, a weekly publication.
“Gary Webb was found dead at his home on 10th December, 2004. He had apparently committed suicide.”
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwebbG.htmhttp://archives.cjr.org/year/97/4/mercury.asp
from Columbia Journalism Review:
“As The New York Times reported, Webb was sued for libel three times at The Plain Dealer. One suit was dismissed. The paper settled the other two.”
http://archives.cjr.org/year/97/4/mercury.asp
dose of reality (2dcd84) — 12/3/2005 @ 10:38 amHere is the correct version of the first
link in Comment #7 (above). Sorry for
any incovenience:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwebbG.htm
dose of reality (2dcd84) — 12/3/2005 @ 10:43 amStanley “Tookie” Williams Watch: NOT Afraid to Die
Caution: This POST contains graphic violent images.
FullosseousFlap's Dental Blog (baa0b4) — 12/3/2005 @ 12:25 pmProtesters gather on the steps of City Hall to demonstrate against the pending execution of Stanley Tookie Williams in San Francisco, Wednesday, Nov. 30, 2005. Death penalty opponents rallied around…
Where did you get the idea that progressive activists are required to be logical or consistent?
DRJ (15ed57) — 12/3/2005 @ 7:26 pmFinally: A Tookie Store for Conservatives
Just in time for the holidays: The Tookie Store
Here are some samples of the shirts, buttons and other products. Images go to lines of products with that phrase:
Fry Tookie . Now
Nuke Tookie . Now
Save Tookie Win Pr…
aaron (47f4fe) — 12/3/2005 @ 10:57 pmHey, that’s my Congresscritter you’re maligning!
Kevin Murphy (6a7945) — 12/4/2005 @ 10:11 amMr. Williams was and is a capitalist. The invisible hand of economics cannot be stopped by laws, or societal censure. Mr. Williams did not tie anyone down and pour coke up his/her nose. The fact it is a prohibited substance is just as responsible for turf war deaths as the actors themselves are. Should Mr. Williams be executed? No, A real life sentence in solitary confinement would be fitting for all murderers. A life sentence has become a full time employment act for lawyers – not justice for society. Has to the demise of Mr. Webb, he may have asked questions about the Mena AR. airport. I believe there has been enough reporting on the deaths (a suprising number of suicides and airplane accidents) of many people who had knowledge about what flew in and out from there in the 1980’s.
Gbear (bbb176) — 12/4/2005 @ 11:09 amMr. Williams was and is a capitalist. The invisible hand of economics cannot be stopped by laws, or societal censure. Mr. Williams did not tie anyone down and pour coke up his/her nose. The fact it is a prohibited substance is just as responsible for turf war deaths as the actors themselves are. Should Mr. Williams be executed? No, A real life sentence in solitary confinement would be fitting for all murderers. A DEATH sentence has become a full time employment act for lawyers – not justice for society. Has to the demise of Mr. Webb, he may have asked questions about the Mena AR. airport. I believe there has been enough reporting on the deaths (a suprising number of suicides and airplane accidents) of many people who had knowledge about what flew in and out from there in the 1980’s
Gbear (bbb176) — 12/4/2005 @ 11:15 amPat – I’m not following the story closely, and I don’t have any particular attachment to saving Mr. Williams outside of my general dislike of the death penalty, but I am a liberal, and perhaps I can help answer your question.
As I understand the story (the little bit I’ve picked up from the media reports and the junk mail I get on the subject), the key thing from the liberal perspective is this: while he did commit a great evil, he has also seen the error of his ways and worked to combat the evil he created.
Liberals like to believe that everyone can be redeemed; that given another shot or six, eventually everyone will acquit themselves honorably. The story that I hear about Mr. Williams is that he has done so; that he has come to see that what he created is a blight on society and is actively working to encourage people not to follow in his footsteps.
Isn’t that what we would want of *all* convicted criminals? Honest repentance followed by working to undo the harm done?
And shouldn’t a criminal who has done that be held up as an example to other criminals as part of encouraging them, too, to mend their ways?
[Since he can’t admit his guilt of these crimes — and he is clearly, unquestionably guilty; follow my links for proof — then I conclude it’s all a stunt to avoid death. — Patterico]
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 12/4/2005 @ 1:10 pmAphrael wrote:
I remember the same discussion prior to the execution of Karla Faye Tucker in Texas (which occurred while George Bush was governor.) Miss Tucker had apparently converted to Christianity and was trying to do as much good as she could in jail. My friends in a conservative e-mail group concluded that Miss Tucker had not reformed in any way, but was simply play-acting to try to avoid being executed.
Like you, I am opposed to capital punishment; unlike you, I am a conservative. One thing that I have learned in my many, thus-far-unsuccessful, arguments against capital punishment with fellow conservatives is that you can never argue for the reformed nature of any murderer: not only will it (usually) not be believed, but it will be stated that even if the reform did occur, the crime was so heinous that the sentence of death must be carried out, regardless, to show our great respect for life.
Dana R. Pico (8d0335) — 12/4/2005 @ 3:31 pmYes, but such repentance never occurred, given Williams’s refusal to admit guilt or tell prosecutors what he knows about the gang he foisted on society. Even if Williams had repented, as his apologists disingenuously claim he has, it still wouldn’t undo his crimes. Once you murder four innocent people, all the repentance in the world isn’t going to bring them back. Or if it will, then maybe we should execute Tookie first, and repent later?
Xrlq (428dfd) — 12/4/2005 @ 10:20 pmA true repentant, I believe, accepts whatever punishment his crime has earned him.
RJN (c3a4a3) — 12/4/2005 @ 10:59 pmThis is what makes Liberals dangerous. They are naive to the point of utter stupidity.
Tookie Williams like John Gotti runs his mob with ruthless efficiency. He still gives orders to kill, maim, and otherwise further his criminal enterprise which is based on murder and violence. Killing Tookie will certainly save lives because it will harm the organizational efficiency of the Crips as Gotti’s death from Cancer did the NY Mob. That’s a plus in my book.
Tookie denies his guilt; threatened to kill the jury after he was convicted; conspired to kill police officers and prosecutors in his case; and has openly called for the death of “snitches.” Far from being “reformed” he has refused to tell what he knows about his massive criminal enterprise and the numerous killings, beatings, rapes, robberies, and so on committed by his thugs.
He marched Albert Owens (a white clerk) into the back and shot him execution style, while mocking the man’s death throes, according to eyewitness testimony. He murdered a 75 year old Asian man by shotgunning him to death, then did the same to the man’s 73 year old wife and 42 year old daughter. All three victims were tiny and frail compared to the monster that Williams was and is. He bragged to his brother (sworn testimony) that he “killed three buddha-heads” and a plethora of physical evidence placed him at the scene to corroborate eyewitness testimony from confederates making Tookie the triggerman. Both robberies netted $300, taking place over four days.
His books have sold all of three hundred copies. The Crips are worse than ever (and more chic with his Crip follower Snoop Dogg). His pose is a farce.
Like I said Liberals are simply not to be trusted with political power. They are naive to the point of utter stupidity and as dangerous as a child with matches.
Jim Rockford (e09923) — 12/5/2005 @ 12:39 amJim Rockford wrote:
It’s quite a claim to say that Tookie Williams, locked up in jail, is still running the Crips from his cell. If that is what you believe, just how bad do you think our government must be if Mr Williams can be in such close communication with the Crips that he knows what’s going on in detail, and can give detailed orders?
Dana R. Pico (3e4784) — 12/5/2005 @ 4:07 amNo more or less so than the equally popular pro-Tookie claim that he is persuading kids to leave gangs in droves from his cell. Either he has that kind of power or he doesn’t.
Xrlq (428dfd) — 12/5/2005 @ 7:06 amMr X wrote:
Well, no, I wouldn’t say that, because the influence is different: the latter could be done with the kind of general writing that the state would allow out. However, I never made such a claim for Mr Williams, nor have I written anything about not executing him based upon his purported reform; my opposition to capital punishment is a general thing, and I would prefer a life sentence for even someone like Saddam Hussein.
Dana R. Pico (3e4784) — 12/5/2005 @ 8:39 am“the key thing from the liberal perspective is this: while he did commit a great evil, he has also seen the error of his ways and worked to combat the evil he created.”
But your “key thing” is falsely predicated – To this day Tookie refuses to confess any guilt in the killings for which he was convicted, so now tell me how has he “seen the error of his ways”?
I am assuming from your statement about not following this in depth that this idea you have of Tookie’s “repentance” came from MSM articles?
This is the same as the MSM heads who like to dismiss the claims of the Swiftboat veterans as “debunked” – not because they ever were but because it’s more comforting to believe they were.
Same thing at work here. But make no mistake – this is nothing more than a cynical partnership between the “I’d rather not get the chair” Tookie interest group and the “We need a high profile face for our posters” anti-capital punishment interest groups.
And no amount of children’s books is going to change that.
Scott (57c0cc) — 12/5/2005 @ 9:01 amLeaders of organized crime have run their gangs from prison cells before. It’s nothing new. They don’t get involved in the dirty little day to day details, but continue to make the executive decisions from behind bars. They communicate through lawyers and so long as their orders are followed, they are in charge, even while in prison.
Whatever your personal opinion on the death penalty, it is the law. We want judges to follow the law and the US Constitution and not legislate from the bench. Tookie had his day in court, and has exhausted all his appeals. Folks who oppose the death penalty can object and demonstrate if they must, but really, now it’s up to Arnold.
Black Jack (ee9fe2) — 12/5/2005 @ 9:07 amScott – as I said, I’m not following it; I don’t know if he’s guilty or not, I don’t know what he’s doing with his time, nothing. I just know what vague impression I get from press coverage, etc.
The problem here isn’t that liberals are naive to the point of utter stupidity; the problem is that liberals have a set of prejudices which interact poorly with lack of information.
If what has been said here about his lack of repentance, etc, is true, then an informed liberal would not react the way an uninformed liberal would.
aphrael (e7c761) — 12/5/2005 @ 9:20 am“This cold-blooded killer, Stanley Williams, now seeks mercy, the very mercy he so
callously denied Albert, Tsai-Shai, Yen-I, and Yee-Chen. Stanley Williams does not deserve
this mercy. In fact, despite the overwhelming nature of the evidence against him, and despite
the non-existence of any credible defense, Stanley Williams has steadfastly refused to take any
responsibility for the brutal, destructive, and murderous acts he committed. Without such
responsibility, there can be no redemption, there can be no atonement, and there should be no
mercy.”
This pretty much sums it up, and should be used as the antidote to the intellectualy dishonest liberal rightthink currently being spread by the MSM.
Scott (57c0cc) — 12/5/2005 @ 9:22 amAnd for those questioning the evidence, here’s a helpful quote:
“After Williams murdered Owens, he, Darryl, Coward and Sims fled in the two cars and
returned home to Los Angeles. The robbery netted Williams and his associates approximately
$120.00. (TT 2280). Once back in Los Angeles, Williams asked if anyone wanted to get
something to eat. (TT 2178). When Sims asked Williams why he shot Owens, Williams said
he “didn’t want to leave any witnesses.” Williams also said he killed Owens “because he was
white and he was killing all white people.” (TT 2189, 2193).
Later that same day, Williams bragged to his brother Wayne about killing Owens.
Williams said, “you should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him.” Williams then
made gurgling or growling noises and laughed hysterically about Owens’ death. (TT 2195-
2197).”
Stuff you aren’t going to be hearing about from the MSM or the Save Tookie crowd except on a cold day in Hell.
Scott (57c0cc) — 12/5/2005 @ 9:33 amThe Jackster wrote:
I assume, however, you would concede that it is our right to petition the Governator to commute Mr Williams’ sentence, and that, if he does, he will have been acting within tyhe law.
Dana R. Pico (3e4784) — 12/5/2005 @ 9:42 amDana – I remember the Karla Faye Tucker incident, and I was dubious: it seemed to me that many of her supporters were in essence saying that the fact that she was an ardent Christian was, in itself, evidence of her reformation. That struck me as being a religious test, which I was uncomfortable with.
That said, the idea that a reformed criminal, someone who truly accepts what he did and is willing to work to mitigate or undo the damage, is someone who should be forgiven – that strikes me as a fundamental tenet of the liberal philosophy of criminal justice. Mr Williams may or may not be that man; I don’t know.
aphrael (6b0647) — 12/5/2005 @ 10:00 am“That said, the idea that a reformed criminal, someone who truly accepts what he did and is willing to work to mitigate or undo the damage, is someone who should be forgiven – that strikes me as a fundamental tenet of the liberal philosophy of criminal justice. Mr Williams may or may not be that man; I don’t know.”
Phrased that way, yes Tookie could indeed be your guy.
However if you swap that carefully nuanced “truly accepts” (is there any non-subjective way of measuring such a thing?) with the more straightforward “taking full responsibility for”, why then no he is demonstrably not him.
Scott (57c0cc) — 12/5/2005 @ 10:14 amFirst,my bias.I’m against the death penalty.This seems less absolute than 10 years ago,though;mainly in reference to child rapists/murderers.I’ve read a little on the Tookie
lincoln (16db30) — 12/8/2005 @ 6:22 amsituation and was initially pleased to see DeWayne Hickman write on it (USAT;12-07-05).
Although,prepared to be convinced,I ended by being disgusted by his sophhomoric sophistry,or maybe dishonesty.Examples:”I don’t know if he is guilty or innocent”.Obviously,he doesn’t want to examine the evidence .If he investigates,he’ll have to write about the overwhelming evidence Tookie killed four people.This is like sticking fingers in your ears and yelling,”I can’t hear you”.
Sigh.The Nobel Prize nomination is mentioned as an example of retribution.I can’t find anything about the fact geting nominated is about as selective as writing for Wikedpedia.
TookieThe Author
Finally(and there is a chance I’m cynical here)
but with the celebrities who’ve pimped for Tookie,DW uses Mike Farrell in his article.What,especially distinguishes him from more prominent,more contemporary stars (Danny Glover,Snoop Dogg)?Right.He’s white.This seems to be a racial solidarity on DW’s part.Pretty sad.
Pardon me if already suggested, but I have two thoughts re “Tookie”, one serious, one not so:
1. (Serious) “Someone” should encourage/organize a) all of the family members of those who were victims of violence from the Crips, b) those who lost family members running with the Crips, and c) all of the Bloods who are eager for Tookie to be spared the death penalty, to counter-protest the folks who are pleading on his behalf (and make sure the camera angles are honest, ala Mrs. Sheehan’s book signings). Hopefully there would be a large number of (a) and (b), and maybe one spokesperson saying they could not find any of category (c).
2. (Not so Serious, because it will never happen, but its up your alley, Mr. Patterico) Gov. S. along with the Attorney General’s should offer changing the death sentence to life without parole if he will name the current top 10 members of the Crips with enough evidence to convict them of their crimes, also.
Even if he has “truely reformed” and has asked forgiveness (which one can’t do if one never acknowledged the crime), that does not automatically translate into changing the legal consequences of doing a crime. E.g., Part of the Karla Faye Tucker reasoning was that whether she had truely reformed or not, the legal consequences of her crime were unchanged. To not carry through would be minimizing the reality of the crime itself and those who personally and corporately (all of us) suffered, and who suffer again the next time. My understanding, FWIW, is tha David Berkowitz, aka “Son of Sam”, has reformed, is a model inmate, and has expressed deep regret for what he has done. He has chosen to explicitly declare he will NOT attempt any change in his sentencing, and when his case has come up for review it has only been because NY law requires such and he opposes consideration of his case.
MD in Philly (b3202e) — 12/10/2005 @ 9:54 amMD from Philly,
The gleaned numbers for your classified category [c] are about 56,000 + :
From another record, at least 30,000 of the 56,000 are supporters signing an online petition. It could be that, 30,000 has since jumped to 56,000 .
Prosecutor and defence have had their 30 minutes each , hearing before Gov Arnold Schwarzenegger, this Thursday , Dec 8th 2005. Outside there were 75,000 supporters.
Yi Ling (96d915) — 12/10/2005 @ 5:17 pmClarification, my statement was: c) all of the Bloods who are eager for Tookie to be spared the death penalty…
The Bloods were/are the rival gang to the Crips, hence those who were often their targets. I doubt that many of the 56,000 mentioned are Bloods (unless they are hoping Tookie will actually be released so they can carry out the original sentence themselves).
My point was that of all those in support of “Tookie”, few of them suffered at his hands, and that it would be good for those who had been victims of his enterprise to stand and be counted also.
MD in Philly (b3202e) — 12/10/2005 @ 7:19 pmActually, I think Tookie is a good example of the Nietzschian “superman” myth, especially when he is being touted as a hero that should be spared and given a Nobel Prize. The “superman” ideal was to be of a class that did not need to submit to the rules of/meant for inferiors. Whereas Raskolnikov (sp?) acted with a claim of such superiority and failed, and indeed came to see the error of his ways and was grateful for any mercy he received, Tookie has duped tens of thousands into putting the stamp of approval on being a thug as a preferred method of advancement in American society. It seems as if they are saying its OK for a person to be a brute, thug, and murderer because he’s “African American and from the ‘hood, ya-know, because you can’t expect anything better from ’em”. That seems to me to be quite condescending and racist, not “supportive of equal rights”. I’m sure the vast majority of African Americans want hoodlums off of their streets as much as anyone else.
MD in Philly (b3202e) — 12/10/2005 @ 7:42 pmMD in Philly,
OK there is a map of the location of the Blood and the Crips, and it seems the Crips is more widespread in Los Angeles County. http://www.streetgangs.com/slides/territory/frame.htm . Also the numbers of gang members in LA as of 1980 was 30,000 gang members and by 1998 there are 150,000 gang members http://www.streetgangs.com/slides/territory/frame.htm . So to address your point, we would need to know how many Blood there are and how many Crips there are, before you can zero in to the number in Blood that ….
Yi Ling (90320d) — 12/10/2005 @ 7:57 pmI see your point about Tookie and superman MD, but I can’t see anyone powerless in jail for as long as Tookie has being regarded by Nietzsche as a superman. Being jailed is limiting to say the least. Also, while I can’t defend a lot of what Nietzsche says, I sure don’t see Nietzsche admiring anyone for murdering for money. Nietzsche is often maligned by Christians since he did indeed detest Christianity.
Being the iconoclast he was, he admired the idea of a superman since he thought of Christianity as being based upon a slave morality. He turned the saying “The meek shall inherit the earth” on its head and said that it is really the brave and strong that have the most power. But that isn’t really that profound, is it? Incidentally, I don’t believe that most Christians here in America are that humble anymore and tend to agree with Nietzsche on that point (whether they know it or not). Most Christians here are no wimps.
Tillman (1cf529) — 12/10/2005 @ 8:07 pmMD in Philly,
Foot note to above post mentioning the 2 frames :
(1) The first frame is slide 12 of 42 which deals with the escalating gang membership over a period of eighteen [18] years from 1980 to 1998 , capping 150,000 in 1998 from 30,000 in 1980, and captioned “Estimated Gang Membership- Los Angeles County, 1980-1998” .
(2) The second frame is slide 41 of 42 which deals with location of the Blood and Crips gangs captioned “Black Gang Territories 1996”
Yi Ling (90320d) — 12/10/2005 @ 8:08 pmNot really, at least not to make my point. If the Crips and Bloods are mutually exclusive in their interests (their territories), why would members of one group come to the compassionate aid of the other? How many survivors of Nazi death camps wanted leniency for those who ran them? (And if there were any, why would they??)
MD in Philly (b3202e) — 12/10/2005 @ 8:10 pmTillman,
Thanks for the dialogue.
Tookie has been in prison a long time, but I’m not sure he has been “powerless”. Whether or not he has had continued involvement in the running of the Crips from behind bars, right now he has ten’s of thousands of people supporting his cause, including rich and influential, and he has a governor (and many others) tied up in knots. If they carry out the sentence, they are concerned that there will be rioting, etc. If they don’t, its because they were intimidated into backing down. In prison he is, but powerless he is not. He has the power to provoke rioting if his sentence is carried out, and the power to prevent it by saying “I did it, people who did what I did deserve to die, let there be no violence on account of my death, let it be a lesson”.
Besides, he is not viewed as a common thug who robbed a person for money, he is the founder of an organization of survival, necessary because of all of the evil done by “the Man” over the years, and hence the stuff of legend and Nietsche.
More on Nietsche and Christianity would be too long and too far afield at the moment.
MD in Philly (b3202e) — 12/10/2005 @ 8:22 pmMD in Philly,
Looks like your point is self evident then without the further need for speculation or expressed hope as you earlier put it. Now that I have a bit more background of part of your point, what is the rationale or substantive point of
Appreciate you driving home your larger /deeper point 🙂
Yi Ling (f2a09e) — 12/11/2005 @ 2:56 amI have the advantage of posting in my first language. I don’t think I would even try in yours. 😉
Seriously, I hope the host of this blog is busy helping to assemble groups (a) and (b).
MD in Philly (b3202e) — 12/11/2005 @ 1:33 pmFry Tookie.
Bob (1f302a) — 12/11/2005 @ 2:44 pmTillman, my old friend, whoever told you that “meekness” = “wimpiness”. I would allege that Jesus himself was the meekest of men, yet I would also argue that the manliest of us are wimps by comparison with Him.
Humility, is yet another issue.
And, of course, another observation one might offer is that Nietzsche was wrong.
“God is dead”, signed Nietzsche. “Nietzsche is dead”, signed God.
Harry Arthur (b318a5) — 12/11/2005 @ 3:37 pmMD in Philly,
1) Has anyone started that?
2) Is Patterico agreeable with you that this is the best thing to do?
3) Is the time left between now and probable execution date, an important factor? Does it matter that it is a just a matter of days left? Or the exercise should still run even after the probable execution date or execution date.
4) What would be the purpose of doing that? What do you expect to be gained from doing that?
5) Why do you recommend this?
6) How feasible or difficult would be the task to do that?
7) What skills or talents would be needed to do that?
8) What qualifications or experience would be needed to do that?
9) What resources would be needed to do that?
10) How much time would be employed to do that?
11) In what shape would the final report of such an exercise take and what would you expect the hypothesis to be , proven or otherwise, for your point you are trying to make with the recommendation?
12) To whom would you expect the final report to be given to?
Would love to hear from you on the above.
Yi Ling (d2f82f) — 12/11/2005 @ 5:47 pmJudgment Day: Stanley Tookie Williams Life to End Tuesday (or will it?)
Whenever Independent Sources posts a piece on Michael Jackson, Scott Peterson, Andrea Yates, or Holly Ashcraft, some lovable nut posts a comment about how dare we or anyone else “judge” that person whether they be a pedophile or child kill…
Independent Sources (4f7430) — 12/11/2005 @ 9:08 pm[…] Patterico weighs in with further discourse on why Williams should die. All the misplaced fantasist rage directed at the CIA by conspiracy theorists like U.S. Congresswoman Maxine Waters rightfully belongs on Stanley Williams. Williams is the Ken Lay of Cocaine, a man who built a corporate structure that enslaves , impoverishes, and exploits Americans–especially, but certainly not exclusively, their own African-American neighbors (and on the supply end, thousands of Latin Americans as well.) But unlike a corporation that relies on the courts to enforce its contracts or settle disputes with competitors, the Crips rely on shotguns, switchblades, and ball bats. They don’t exactly pay their enforcers, molls, bagmen, lookouts and runners minimum wage and give them primo health benefits, either. They’re even worse than Wal-Mart, I hear. […]
Independent Sources » Blog Archive » Judgment Day: Stanley Tookie Williams Life to End Tuesday (or will it?) (4f7430) — 12/11/2005 @ 9:16 pmHarry, the interpretation of the Bible has changed over the years. It doesn’t matter that there are differences between being meek, being wimpy, and having humility. A lot of people interpreted the Bible to say that good Christians should play a more subdued roll in general. Christians in general have taken a more pro-active stance in the last 20 or 30 years, getting into politics more for example. OK, “wimpy” may have been too strong of a word, but I tend to think in extremes at times. They may not have been wimpy in the sense that they wouldn’t defend themselves, but the Christian attitude toward their religion has certainly changed. These days, some Christians are getting irate if someone actually has the audacity to say “Happy Holidays” rather than “Merry Christmas.” Yes, the times have changed.
Nietzsche was writing back in the late 1800’s and apparently Christians were really “meek” back then too – at least in the parts of Europe where he lived.
Tillman (1cf529) — 12/12/2005 @ 4:46 am