Dafydd ab Hugh is right. The Republicans’ recent resolution was the right move. It sent a clear message to the world that we are not going to cut and run in Iraq. If the price of that message is providing political cover to some relatively weak-kneed Democrats, that’s okay. It’s worth it.
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I agree.
Unfortunately Pubs let themselves get afflicted with the left’s over-reach disease though, and the way ‘news’ of it is being characterized is as ‘Pubs attack 37 year veteran’s patriotism and courage’, rather than the fact of the anti-surrender vote.
Dwilkers (a1687a) — 11/20/2005 @ 7:55 amDemocrat Congressman Murtha proposed the US Cut and Run in Iraq, and Dem leadership, like a drunken hobo seeking instant salvation, jumped on the bandwagon and cheered for America’s defeat in Iraq.
However, when Republicans decided to put it to a vote, preening Dems cried foul. They yelled and screamed, complained, caterwauled, tried to duck and dodge, then when the question was called, when the time came to stand and be counted, nearly every Democrat in the House, some shrieking hysterically, ran away in shame and cowardice. The vote was 403-3.
Today’s Democrat Party is an empty shell, an illegitimate construct propped up by the MSM, made up of dissemblers and misinformers, treacherous cowards willing to surrender to International Terrorism, willing to stab our troops in the back, anything to seize control of American government. Dem proposals are not worthy of notice, let alone consideration.
Let them stew in their hate and envy. Let them whine and complain to each other. It doesn’t matter what they say. The voters aren’t listening. The Democrat Party has become a creature of the past, an irrelevancy in today’s world. They’re stone dead but don’t have the common sense to shut up and lay down.
Black Jack (ee9fe2) — 11/20/2005 @ 9:01 amThere was a parade this week in Kut (population 500,000) marking the turnover of the city from Ukrainian troops to Iraqi troops. All of the 1650 Ukrainian troops will be home by the end of December.
If the LA Times, Newsweek, NYT, etc even noticed this (I’m convinced they have a combined force of 1 reporter in Iraq), they would be reporting this as a parade celebrating the defeat of the US – a celebration of the US losing a war, a celebration of the US retreating like in Vietnam.
Shredstar (398f0a) — 11/20/2005 @ 9:07 amWrong again Black Jack. Even Murtha voted against that proposal. The republican congress shamelessly proposed something that Murtha was not advocating and now their bragging on their “victory,” which is just a cheap political stunt.
Tillman (1cf529) — 11/20/2005 @ 10:34 amTillman,
So, according to you, “…congress shamelessly proposed something that Murtha was not advocating…” What nonsense, typical moonbat double talk. The shame is on Murtha and his cowardly Dem co-conspirators. Now, you drink from the same cup.
Can you realty keep a straight face and deny that Murtha wants to cut and run in Iraq. You know that isn’t so. Why pretend otherwise?
Republicans gave Murtha a chance to vote his conscience, but he cowardly chose to duck the issue, and deny the essence of his own proposal. Now Dems have only weasel words to hide their perfidy, a bogus fig leaf. Bald face cowards, the lack of intellectual integrity makes Dems unfit to participate in public affairs.
Black Jack (ee9fe2) — 11/20/2005 @ 12:14 pmBlack Jack, you and Patterico are not being fair to Murtha. He did not simply want to cut and run. Quit drinking that lying republican kool-aid and read his speech for yourself: http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_murtha/pr051117iraq.html
Tillman (1cf529) — 11/20/2005 @ 12:21 pmTillman,
I know exactly what Murtha said, and I know that when Republicans gave him and House Dems the chance to go on the record with an official vote, they ran like frightened rabbits. That’s both a fair assessment and an example of cowardice, no matter who does it.
Black Jack (ee9fe2) — 11/20/2005 @ 12:35 pmBlack Jack, you’re forgetting the flip side of the “chickenhawk” rule: just as no one who didn’t serve in the military can ever be allowed to support a war, no one who did serve can ever be criticized for opposing one. Get with the program already!
Xrlq (428dfd) — 11/20/2005 @ 1:49 pmFrom a PR standpoint, I’m glad that the Democratic politicians are pressing their “get out of Iraq now” agenda and also that the House Republicans called their bluff by submitting a Resolution for immedidate withdrawal.
First, the Democratic “get out now” crowd makes it impossible to legitimately argue that the US is an imperialistic nation. Americans are so anxious to retreat into isolationism that it’s comic to suggest we are imperialists or even colonizers.
Second, the House Resolution was good and, more importantly, it was immediate. American troops and Iraqi citizens knew within 24-36 hours that American resolve is strong, despite the “get out now” rhetoric.
So I agree, the House Resolution was a win for Republicans and for America.
DRJ (15ed57) — 11/20/2005 @ 2:12 pm“From a PR standpoint, I’m glad that the Democratic politicians are pressing their “get out of Iraq now” agenda”
Its really just one. Pelosi, Reid and Kerry have all distanced themselves from Murtha’s asking for an immediate practicable withdrawl.
Frankly I’m glad. I’m not a get out now type. I’m a “if not now, when?” type. But getting there takes having someone say “now!” and have others say “no.” And then we talk about when.
actus (c9e62e) — 11/20/2005 @ 2:18 pmBrothers in Arms:
Xrlq, got it. Thanks, now I’ll go you one more. No one who hasn’t served in the armed forces should even be so presumptuous as to voice an opinion on questions of war and peace. Murtha can talk all he wants, he’s qualified.
Let those who know what they’re talking about discuss the great issues of the day. If one is unwilling to pay the dues, one should have the good manners to sit down and keep quiet. Opinions, no matter how heartfelt, uninformed by experience are usually not very useful.
Black Jack (ee9fe2) — 11/20/2005 @ 2:27 pmPatterico, but we probably are going to abandon Iraq at some point and everybody knows it. It is just a question of how many more lives and dollars are going to be thrown away while hoping for a miracle.
James B. Shearer (fc887e) — 11/20/2005 @ 3:27 pmYes, everybody should know that the US is going to leave Iraq at some point. Why not after the several factions have an opportunity to establish a framework to govern themselves? After the bloodthirsty terrorists have been defeated, and the Iraqi people can live in peace in their own country.
If they can’t get along and a civil war breaks out, we will have done what we could. Surely, that’s better than cutting and running.
Black Jack (ee9fe2) — 11/20/2005 @ 4:06 pmBlack Jack, Israel tried for 35 years to defeat the terrorists in the Gaza strip and failed. Why do you think conditions are more favorable in Iraq?
James B. Shearer (fc887e) — 11/20/2005 @ 4:18 pmMr. Shearer:
I don’t think I agree with how you frame the debate. Your viewpoint suggests that America will either win or lose, so we might as well not play.
I see America’s role in the world differently. America could retreat into isolationism or it can engage with the rest of the world – but America will be more active and involved in some areas than in other areas. 9/11 showed us what will happen if we retreat. Even if the results aren’t perfect, I prefer to engage in missions such as the war to liberate Iraq and to introduce democracy in the Middle East.
In other words, I want America to be pro-active instead of reactive, even if we aren’t perfect all the time.
DRJ (8b9d41) — 11/20/2005 @ 4:30 pmRe: #14,
Let’s start with the obvious, the Iraqi people are a large and diverse population, they are not Gaza Strip terrorists, and the US isn’t Israel. Different people, different place.
Next, you have the equation backward. It’s the terrorists who have been trying to defeat Israel for 35 years and have failed. Terrorism doesn’t work.
Conditions is Iraq are more favorable because the Iraqi people are now free from bloodthirsty dictatorship, can see that terrorism hasn’t achieved anything even after 35 years, and are working to establish a representative democracy. Most Iraqi people want freedom and democracy, and that’s a favorable situation.
Black Jack (ee9fe2) — 11/21/2005 @ 11:04 amBlack Jack, but terrorism did work. It got Israel to leave the Gaza strip (Lebanon also).
James B. Shearer (fc887e) — 11/21/2005 @ 11:17 amDRJ, the problem with Iraq is not that we might lose, it is that I see no realistic chance of winning.
I oppose throwing away American lives and dollars for nothing.
James B. Shearer (fc887e) — 11/21/2005 @ 11:21 amI’m sorry to read your words, Mr Shearer.
Because I remember when Americans said things like:
Don’t Give Up the Ship
I Have Not Yet Begun to Fight
Damn the Torpedoes, and
Nuts
You might want to take off your apron, skip the Dem and MSM spin, and have a look at the milblogs. The guys actually over there tell quite a different story that the pampered and preening parrots featured on broadcast TV and big city newspapers.
And, don’t forget elections in Iraq in a few weeks. That’s progress and a pretty good sign the good guys are winning. Our troops can do the job if weak sisters at home will suck it up and act like men.
Black Jack (ee9fe2) — 11/21/2005 @ 11:55 amThe Republicans made a mistake when they substituted for Mr Murtha’s resolution; they gave the Democrats the political cover of being able to say that it was an unfair resolution, not what Mr Murtha had proposed.
It’s real simple: reintroduce the Murtha resolution, possibly with the offensive “whereases” removed, and let them vote on a real resolution.
And the Murtha resolution is real, because it is in the form of a concurrent resolution (for both the House and the Senate), along the lines of that envisioned in The War Powers Act of 1973, which allows the Congress to require, by concurrent resolution (Sec. 5, § c) the removal of troops from combat situations of which the Congress disapproves.
Because the Congress did pass an authorization for the use of force, legislation to repeal that might be required; if the Democrats feel so strongly about it, let them introduce the repeal.
Hey, the Democrats have run their mouths so long and so hard on this, I think that it is time, well past the time, that they ought to have to put their votes where their mouths are; let’s see who has the nerve to do so.
Dana R. Pico (a9eb8b) — 11/22/2005 @ 4:09 pmGood idea Pico,
But Dems have been talking out of both sides of their mouths for so long, no one knows where they actually stand on any issue till the next poll comes out.
Black Jack (ee9fe2) — 11/22/2005 @ 4:24 pmAll the Partisan bickering in Washington nowadays is ludicrous in the face of the challenges we are facing as a Nation!
Unbelievably, it seems some Democrats are so desperate to embarrass, and prove wrong the Policies of the Administration of their “hated” nemesis, President Bush, that they almost jump for joy when hearing of another American casualty, or of setbacks in Iraq which to impute to him! They ignore the common sense of realizing, as Senator Lieberman recently pointed out, that we undermine the credibility of our Commander in Chief in this time of War at our peril, distancing our Allies, emboldening our enemies, and further endangering the lives of our troops!!!
Neither Democrats nor Republicans have a “monopoly” on integrity, or “TRUTH,” and though outnumbered by their more raucous colleagues, there are still some Democrats who embody the decency, and the integrity of Democrats of far gone days, when the Democratic Party was the Party of the “common man,” and not of the “Special Interests” (rabid women libbers, gays, lesbians, atheists, welfare pimps, mangy dogs, three legged horses, etc.) like Joe Lieberman, and Zel Miller, and stood-up for the values of the “common man!”
Talking about “Special Interests,” you know, for all we criticize many of our peers for feeling so “entitled,” it may well be attributed to a “generational” trait, much more than to a “personal” one, being they are part of our generation, the “Baby Boomer” generation! Let us further examine this phenomenon:
We didn’t have to quit school and go work at 10 years old, 14 hours a day at a “Sweat Shop,” like so many generations of Americans before us did, to help feed our younger brothers and sisters, while going to College was for the most part the exclusive privilege of the “Ivy League” affluent, and the rich!
For the first time in our History in the fifties, the average Dad earned enough at work to support his family and plan for the future, while Mom could afford to stay at home raising the children, who had their toys and Lionel trains to play with, watching TV, surrounded by comfort and gadgets, in the home they owned, with a brand new car straight from Detroit sitting in the driveway; and what did we do in our turn? Turn the American dream into a nightmarish trap of crime ridden “Projects,” “Hoods,” “drugs,” and welfare!
For the first time in our History, the sons and daughters of the average Joe on the street could look forward to going to College in the sixties; and what did we do with these new opportunities? Turn our Campuses into breeding grounds of anarchy, permissiveness, and hateful ideologies, bent on overturning the very same social structure from which they derived their unmerited “privileges!”
Women who had so amply proven their equality and abilities during the War, when they had been so crucial to maintaining our Production Lines moving during the War, welding, assembling, building tanks and aircraft, doing the work which hereto had been thought to be the exclusive province of men, while our men fought in the Pacific and in Europe, and who after the War, for the first time in our Nation’s History, were offered the leisure time, and educational opportunities to become all they could envision; and what did many do with these new found freedoms and opportunities? Become rabid, men hating, frothing at the mouth “Feminists” with hairy armpits and burning bras (not to mention sagging tits!), who even shun the primary biological reason of their existence for the
“propagation of the species,” and have made it the Law of the Land, to redress their lack of personal responsibility and continence, to be able to butcher the fetuses of their own conception out of their bodies, not as their unborn children, but as an “inconvenience” to be resolved by a Doctor with a scalpel and a scraper!
This “Baby Boomer” generation in its sense of hedonistic “entitlement,” engaged, in a manner unlike any previous generations, in the use of “recreational” drugs, and launched itself into the “Sexual Revolution” in which it indulged, in all its forms of sexual pleasures, promiscuity, and depravity, without taking into the least account the emotional, societal, and medical consequences of said actions; and what have we got? Rampant drug abuse, and substance dependency affecting our lives, the proliferation of
hepatitis, herpes, gonorrhea, syphilis, aids and other venereal (or is it “Venerable?”) diseases, skyrocketing teenage pregnancies and births out of wedlock, the increasing deterioration of the traditional, “biological,” Family unit (a male, female, and their offsprings), the ever ascending incidence of “single mothers;” all of it in turn affecting the rearing of our children and our youths, who ever-increasingly feel lost, alienated, prone to suicide, engage in violence and self-destructive behavior, fail in our schools, and are for the most part malcontents, and underachievers!
Our Fathers fought unquestioningly in World War II in their Patriotic duty, and ironically it was the productivity necessary for the War effort which set in motion, the industrial machinery, the agricultural prowess, and the social changes which after the War were responsible for our
“Horn of Plenty,” yet when it came our turn to sacrifice ourselves for our Country, we would yell” “Hell no, we won’t go!” while waving the hated flag of our Viet Cong enemies on the steps of our very Capitol!!!
And now, ironically, it is these same balding, and white haired “entitled,” “Baby Boomers,” who smoked the pot, but did not inhale, and consider they did not have sex with a woman who performed oral sex on them in spite of the intimacy, simply because they did not penetrate her vagina, who wielded the Viet Cong flags and waved them over the “Star and Stripes” on the steps of our Nation’s Capitol, and burned our Flag and their “Draft Cards,” who have become the
“Establishment” and determine our Nation’s future from Washington; and what do we get? I suppose that in a bout of nostalgia for their younger days, as older people tend to do, they want to relive their “heroic,” Viet Cong flag wielding days, and once again intone their “pacifist” slogans, and vehemently labor at all costs, to see us, in this new conflict against Islamofacism and terrorism in Iraq, once again suffer the humiliation, and defeat, of having our troops come running back home with “their tails between their legs,” much as they accomplished with the Viet Nam War!!!
Our defeat in Viet Nam opened the way for the spreading of the Viet Cong and its sympathizers to Laos, and Cambodia, and brought about the Pol Pot, in whose killing fields millions of people were murdered, in a “genocide” which our withdrawal from Viet Nam propitiated. The mounds of white skulls bleached by the sun are a mute testament to the fruits of our cowardice!!!
This time, when we withdraw away from Iraq in defeat, as is the wishes of so many of those
“Baby Boomer” Democrats on the Hill, the consequences will be far worse, since it will propitiate the fall of Iraq into the hands of the extremists, which will then work to unite all the Islamic Nations of the Middle East and Asia into an emerging “Caliphate” which will then turn its nuclear weapons (those in the hands of Pakistan today, and soon those of Iran), and point them at Israel, Europe, and our shores!!!
As much as Democrats may wish to delude themselves saying that Iraq is not linked to the “War on Terror,” and that terrorism is primarily a “Law Enforcement” concern, as was the position of “Purple Heart for a band-aid Recipient,” Democratic Presidential Candidate, John Kerry, wishing to draw the US back into
“Isolationism,” none other than Al Qaeda’s Second in Command, Al Swahiri, in his most recent statements, made it perfectly clear, that the goal of Al Qaeda and these terrorists, and their struggle, is not just against the US Occupation of Iraq, or the establishment of a “Palestinian State,” but the obliteration of Israel, of their “Great Shaitan,” The United States, and of Western Civilization from the face of the earth, to be replaced by a world-wide Islamic Caliphate!!!
When will, this “entitled,” “Baby Boomer” generation open up its eyes, and see all the woe it, which was the most blessed generation of all before it, has wrought upon the world!!!Though Ezra Pound uttered these words referring to those living in the aftermath of World War I, I find it more befitting of the “Baby Boomers,” indeed: “You are all a lost Generation…”
Blessed be the day when we all have passed, that the madness may abate!!!
Althor
Althor (ee9fe2) — 12/12/2005 @ 2:24 amJBS, you’re right. The Battle of the Bulge went horribly wrong, the Phillipines are lost forever. Japan and Germany are ascendant. We can’t possibly win. This war has been going on now for, what, more than five years. London has been repeatedly bombed.
It’s cost us hundreds of thousands of our best and brightest. It’s just not worth it. It’s time to quit.
Thank God you weren’t running WWII.
This is WWIII. Thank God, at least so far, we’re staying the course. This foe can and must be defeated. If we now abandon Iraq the world has every right not to ever again trust anything we say or do.
Have you noticed that the Sunni clerics have declared it a religious duty to vote?
Black Jack is right. Check out the milblogs for the actual story of our considerable successes in Iraq. Are we now again to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory as we did in Viet Nam? Are we to shame the sacrifices of the brave men and women who have died to bring democracy to the ME? The soldiers know what’s going on.
Harry Arthur (b318a5) — 12/12/2005 @ 4:42 amBlack Jack, you’re forgetting the flip side of the “chickenhawk” rule: just as no one who didn’t serve in the military can ever be allowed to support a war, no one who did serve can ever be criticized for opposing one. Get with the program already!
I hereby invoke the Xrlq military exemption …
I’m wondering though, since Rep Murtha and I find ourselves on opposing sides of the argument, how it is that we determine who might be right. Do we compare years of active duty service?
Nevertheless, no criticism of any of my statements regarding the conduct of any military action, please …
Harry Arthur (b318a5) — 12/12/2005 @ 4:48 amBeing weak on defense goes with liberal as a Coke and a Smile.
Sandy (06f181) — 9/17/2006 @ 9:11 pmNo one who hasn’t served in the armed forces should even be so presumptuous as to voice an opinion on questions of war and peace. – Black Jack
This mean George Allen can’t debate James Webb?
steve (edba57) — 9/17/2006 @ 9:32 pmI’m so sorry, but we already lost much of that trust when we invaded Iraq on false pretenses.
Rick (c7fbdd) — 9/17/2006 @ 9:36 pmBlack Jack, that’s nuts.
Serving in the military isn’t a prerequisite to having a good opinion on a country’s direction. The founders put the military under civilian control for a reason. What you propose is little different than a form of fascism.
Yes, people who served in the military bring additional exerience and knowledge to the debate, but that’s all. I love and support the military and have been a member of it. Yet it is you who are being very presumptious.
I guess the SS, Luftwaffe, and Wehrmacht were the only people qualified to comment on German foreign policy? And Tojo’s militarists the only people qualified to comment on Japan’s? And the Red Army to have exclusively set the international relations re: peace and war for the Soviet Union?
Do you really believe that nonsense?
Christoph (9824e6) — 9/17/2006 @ 9:40 pmAnd you go on to say:
Seriously, most soldiers have no experience with war. They are often uninformed 18-year old kids who like guns and helicopters. I know, I was one of them.
Only these people are qualified to have an opinion?
As someone who admires your young soldiers, that’s totally crazy. Even most of them would disagree with you. Try that route and you WILL get your dictatorship.
Fortunately, most people including freedom loving American patriots and founders understand that’s daff.
Christoph (9824e6) — 9/17/2006 @ 9:45 pmI can’t let this go.
Eisenhower, a great American soldier and 2-term Republican President, understood that this is foolish and dangerous.
Listen to Ike.
Christoph (9824e6) — 9/17/2006 @ 9:47 pm