Armed Liberal on Gen. Mattis’s Comments
Armed Liberal disagrees with me that Gen. Mattis should be reprimanded for Mattis’s counterproductive remarks, but says that Gen. Mattis should have known better.
I’ll say this one more time: military men should not be faulted for being warriors — and that’s not what I’m doing. But when a general publicly says that “it’s a hell of a lot of fun to shoot” people because they “slap women around” then he is reinforcing the worst stereotypes of American soldiers around the world. And no, I don’t condone wife-beating — and no, I don’t disapprove of killing murderers and terrorists. But these particular remarks were beyond the pale. They don’t help our battle to win hearts and minds — which we are in whether you like it or not — and they consequently do little to help our soldiers on the battlefield.
I can respectfully disagree with those who don’t want to see the general reprimanded — and as good a general as he is reputed to be, I certainly don’t want to see him resign. But I do want someone to order him to watch what he says in public in the future. It’s nice to see someone who is supportive of the war agree with me on that point, since precious few have up until now. (Some people are even winning contests by writing posts telling me “f— you.” I know most of my readers disagree with me on this issue; luckily most of them are able to express their disagreement in a more civil fashion than that.)
Er, I didn’t know this was a controversy, Pat.
Yes, I supported (and support) the war. Yes, I agree with you that someone with a fourth star should tell Mattis to shut his hole. But I would sugar-coat it: “Jimbo,” I’d say, “look, you know we all agree with you: honest to God, it really is fun to shoot despicable murders and torturers, rapists and child molesters who prey up on the helpless and the invalid.
“But look, dude… in this world, we have to be like Steve Martin. Remember how, when the crowd would applaud, Martin would shake his head and use his left hand to dampen the enthusiasm — while with the right, he ramped it up? That’s what we have to do, because Americans are pretty squeamish: with the left hand, we deplore violence and killing — so that people will feel better about us slaying bad guys by the thousand with our right hands.
“I know it’s stupid; but this is a world of spin. Just as soon as we imanatize the eschaton and create paradise on earth, I’ll let you know… and then you can tell us how much you like the smell of napalm in the morning, and nobody will give a hoot. Until then, however, I’ll say this: soldier… shut up and soldier!
“Note especially the first two words. Now go do that voodoo that you do so well. Dismissed!”
There, Pat. Happy?
Dafydd
Dafydd (df2f54) — 2/13/2005 @ 1:09 amUh, [raises hand], here’s another war supporter who thinks he shot his mouth off and ought to be reprimanded. But not publicly. And it should be clear that the reprimand is for shooting his mouth off in public, not for what he thinks or how he does his job.
Actually, I think the response was just about right. Don’t recall the exact quote but it was something like: “He shouldn’t have said it. I’ve talked to him about it. Case closed.”
Doc Rampage (b42666) — 2/13/2005 @ 1:47 amLook. If you want an all voluntary military, some who volunteer will be people who want to kill. Is it good to have these people in the military? Of course!
However, Gen. Mattis, is an idiot for stating this so plainly and publically. Just like it would be wrong to go around the country telling people how much soldiers enjoyed sex with civilians. Or talking about how interesting the pink mist is the first time you hit an enemy combatant in the head. There are a whole bunch of inappropriate topics the military shouldn’t discuss.
Because it’s totally fucking rude.
Ladainian (91b3b2) — 2/13/2005 @ 7:51 amWe are fighting an enemy tough to the point of suicidal, an enemy who has stated America’s young men are weak and will-sapped. They didn’t get that impression from the Mattises, they got it from the wrist-slappers. Perhaps, like 3-year-olds, they might have formed wholly other behaviors if they had had consequences from Carter or Reagan or Clinton. But they did not. The set we are killing now has had their impression fixed by decades watching us vilify our own warriors, and will not change it; they have to be extinguished. Let the man lead our kids, yap-free.
Simon Kenton (bfdffd) — 2/13/2005 @ 8:57 amI largely agree with these comments. Maybe we don’t disagree as much as I thought. I just think that the reprimand must be an unequivocal condemnation of such statements. The reprimand he did receive, as I recall it, fell a little short, as it was a little too muted.
My opinion.
Patterico (756436) — 2/13/2005 @ 9:12 am“fun to kill them” was probably not the thing to say. Agreed. “A duty to kill them” would have been much more apt.
Kevin Murphy (6a7945) — 2/13/2005 @ 10:24 amDon’t you know, Marines got no couth”? That’s not what we hire them for. This particular Marine probably wanted to inspire the troops, “a la Patton”, but misunderstood the vapors he would create in the PC world.
Rick Bridgeman (1dee9d) — 2/13/2005 @ 10:28 amKevin Murphy,
He has a duty to kill terrorists, not people who slap around their wives.
Patterico (756436) — 2/13/2005 @ 10:35 amRick B.,
Agreed; that’s not what we hire them for. So let this guy go out there and fight — and keep his damn mouth shut in the process.
Patterico (756436) — 2/13/2005 @ 10:38 amNot to mention that this kind of talk from a general goes against the Administration’s stated policy of winning hearts and minds. Sure, we can all agree that “wife-beating” is just a fairly mild metaphor for the way a lot of these scumbags treat women – not to mention men who don’t fall into line with their medieval beliefs – but not all Muslims are like that, and I would imagine that if I were Average Mohammed Muslim spending my days in Afghanistan just trying to provide for my family, I’d have a hard time interpreting the general’s words in a particularly nuanced way. After all, how can an American soldier be expected to tell the difference between a “bad Muslim” and a “good Muslim”? And if he can’t, then might he not have just as much “fun” killing me as he would a devoted Taliban disciple?
In any case, the problem really isn’t just this one general making this one comment; it’s that if all generals said things like this, it would be absolutely impossible to credibly portray ourselves as benevolent liberators – and we all know how difficult that is anyway – so the trend has to be stopped before it starts. Perception may not change reality, but it sure has a huge impact in how humans respond to what they believe reality to be, and if we don’t make some effort to at least publicly suppress our darker, more violent urges, we will only feed the negative perceptions that already exist.
This is not like fighting the Japanese or the Germans, because then we were fighting military and economic power; we didn’t need to “convince” anyone we were right, because it was a matter of survival. Right now we’re fighting ideology, beliefs, and preconceptions as much as any military force. That‘s why Mattis’s remarks were wrong, and not because they offended “liberal pantywaist PC sensibilities”.
Mike C (dca672) — 2/13/2005 @ 11:00 ami certainly agree with you that his words are damaging, while I don’t want to see him repremanded for them, considering the propaganda front in this war I think he should be ordered to put a lid on it compeletely and permanently.
jason (a62d92) — 2/13/2005 @ 12:52 pmA General Officer should understand that AS a General everything he says is, ultimately, “on the record.” In today’s era of email, cell phones and digi-cams, even a quick pep-talk to a huddle of fellow warriors cannot be considered safe from inspection. Matttis should know this.
Write Winger (0c7f2a) — 2/13/2005 @ 3:21 pmShould he have said what he said? No. As a Marine, I can understand what he was trying to commuicate — the feral rush, the thrill of victory, even yes, the thrill of killing your enemy. It happens. It’s a very real emotion. But it is something discussed over beers and cigars, among intimates and fellow survivors of the crucible. To make such comments “in the open” shows a clear lack of situational awareness.
The other reality is that General’s such as Patton would not “survive” long in today’s climate where we are more worried about offending our enemies then we are about protecting ourselves from them. We need warfighters like Mattis to protect our country…but we need them to watch their friggin’ mouths in public, too!
He should certainly receive a reprimand. Not for thinking what he thought, but for his poor judgement in making the comments in the manner he did, in the situation he did.
Well, the fact is many professional soldiers don’t do that well in polite society. They tend to say the wrong things and spill their drinks on the hostess. And sometimes they mouth off a little too much. You can bet that Mattis got a verbal butt kicking out of this. That’s enough. We should be glad we have leaders like Mattis because when the time comes to break things and kill people, we need them.
Tom Carter (a67db1) — 2/13/2005 @ 3:58 pmDear Patterico: You are no doubt a fine scholar attorney, husband and father; however you have been educated beyond your understanding. You are not alone. Virtually every Professor and Attorney I know fail to understand even the basics of life. That is why Western Europe and much of the U.S. is unable to reproduce their population;and why Europe is incapable of defending itself. The feminization of men renders them helpless when faced with physical threats or philosphical threats because they “just want to get along”. FIrst we had women in the armed forces(late 1970’s) then gays in the military (1990″s) and now we’ve gotten to the point that the warriors are not to mention their thinking and feelings–too crude and uncivilized. You have not risked your life for this country and most men of your generation have not been willing to do so. How do you think this nation came about? It was not through men who worried about feelings. From the revolutionary war through the civil war and up to now the nation has only continued in existance because of the heart felt devotion,determination and (dare I say it) the willingness to kick ass of those men who serve in combat. This is not for you or me to critique their feelings or thoughts. If they have betrayed our country, incited treason or riot then we ought to try them and convict them for those actions. But to censure these men for the very thoughts and actions that are necessary for the nations survival is the height of foolishness. Think of how few men are even willing to serve. We have 300 Million people, but very few soldiers–less than 2 million are willing to serve. Do not make the mistake of neutoring them. We have enough gays and lesbains, pacifists and professors, comentators and critics; but far too few encouragers, combat soldiers, and advocates of masculine virtues.
john (6fdeb3) — 2/13/2005 @ 5:43 pmI suppose it’s just the Jacksonian in me. I will guarantee you that nothing the general said is offensive to Jacksonians. The man was simply stating the dirt simple truth. Man, in south Alabama, where I grew up, on & off between rotations to other PODs (somehow my dad managed to get every other tour of duty to Ft. Rucker, near my mom’s hometown) they’d give him a party and a parade for telling it like it is. He’s obviously not a desk jockey.
Write Winger points out – accurately – that a Patton would not survive in today’s climate. Think about that for a minute. You, Pat, say that the Pattons & the Mattises should adjust to the political climate. I say that the climate needs changing because it could cost us our Pattons.
harmon (dcac79) — 2/13/2005 @ 8:20 pmI half disagree and half agree: I’m heartened to hear that he enjoys his job, and hope that his passion motivates those beneath him, but the “slap[ping] women around for five years because they didn’t wear a veil” comment was unhelpful.
Nels Nelson (e88b48) — 2/14/2005 @ 2:30 amChrist! Those whining that Gen. Mattis should be scolded either publically or privately should pull their heads out of the collective rectal orifices…
We are at war with terrorist towel heads and we need and should applaud those willing to kill these bastards for the rest of us…
russ (958365) — 2/14/2005 @ 3:49 amPatterico, you say, “But I do want someone to order him to watch what he says in public in the future.”
As a woman married to a military man for twenty two years, I have no doubt that somebody already did this, probably very soon after he spoke- in private, which is the appropriate place. IN fact, knowing the military as I know it, I would bet money (which I never do) that he has been verbally reprimanded and firmly told to be more careful of his speech in front of reporters.
It would be undermining his authority in a dangerous fashion for this to have happened other than privately.
I am also not so sure about remarks of this nature hindering our ability to reach the hearts and minds of the Arab community. Sure, it doesn’t sound very winsome to our culture, but to a culture that admires strength and a warrior mentality, I think it might be exactly the sort of attitude that garners a grudging respect.
DeputyHEadmistress (e71725) — 2/14/2005 @ 8:21 amHearts and minds are not won by shows of sensitivity. They are won by conviction and determination in opposition to tyranny. As for European hearts and minds, the more tormented the better. Maybe someday they will come around, but really, we cannot budge one inch towards them.
Alec Rawls (25d27f) — 2/14/2005 @ 12:45 pm“It is fun to shoot some people.” Where could General James Mattis have gotten such a silly notion? Certainly not from literature– there were no Greeks celebrating battle in “The Iliad.” Or Irishmen lusting for combat in “The Cattle Raid of Cooley.” Horatious never bestrode that bridge and Henry V never made that St. Crispin’s day speech.
From history then? No, that can’t be it. Jan Sobieski never led a happy band of Poles into battle against the Turk outside the gates of Vienna in 1683. The Marqius of Granby never made the cavalry charge at the Battle of Warburg in 1760 with such ferocity that his wig flew off and the phrase “going at them bald headed” was born. No that didn’t happen. Robert E. Lee never said “it is good that war is so terrible, else we would grow too fond of it.” Patton never said, when the weather cleared during the battle of the bulge, “It’s a fine day for killing Germans.” Admiral Halsey never said, “Kill Japs, Kill Japs, Kill more Japs.” Chesty Puller never said at Chosin reservoir, “Good news, we’re surrounded. Now we can shoot in any direction.”
Political correctness is an isidious thing. Fight it at every turn. Of course it’s fun to shoot some people.
Craig
craig mclaughlin (535c81) — 2/15/2005 @ 2:18 am———————————————————————–
Some of the following quotes were touched on but the actual quotes are more direct espacially the last one.
Regarding General Mattis ‘s “offensive” comments how would the PC police react to the ‘Men of Yesteryear’? The following quotes put the General’s comments into historical perspective:
Admiral William Halsey – US 7th Fleet.
“Before we are through with them, the Japanese language will only be spoken in hell.”
General Curtis Lemay – Strategic Air Command
“You’ve got to kill people, and when you’ve killed enough they stop fighting.”
Ulysses S. Grant – General of the Army and President.
“I have never advocated war except as a means of peace.”
General George S. Patton.
“I want you boys to hurry up and whip these Germans so we can get out to the Pacific to kick the shit out of the purple-pissing Japanese, before the Goddamned MARINES get all the credit!”
And finally, the General who said all that needs to be said to the press:
General William Tecumseh Sherman
“War is cruelty. There’s no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over.”
And in the best retort ever against the “nattering nabobs” in the press, a full 150 years before the advent of modern “advocacy journalism”, he said this:
“I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp
Pat Mosman (0ef86e) — 2/16/2005 @ 2:01 pmrumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all this evening they would be reporting news from Hell before breakfast. “
delightful uncommon sense. Thank you.
john (6fdeb3) — 2/16/2005 @ 2:14 pmWTF is He Pontificating About
Riehl World View (af7df9) — 2/16/2005 @ 5:18 pmCourtesy of Victory Soap, Patterico takes exception to recent comments by General Mattis. Apparently Patterico is