Young Staff Writer At The Federalist Passes Away After Sudden Illness
[guest post by Dana]
Our days on earth are certainly numbered. While Richard Overton was gifted with a record 112 years, Federalist writer Bre Payton left this world today at 26 years of age. According to reports, a friend found Payton ““unresponsive and barely breathing,” and called 911, and was “admitted to the ICU, sedated & intubated, and doctors began working up a diagnosis,” the post said. “After a CT scan and hours of testing, they have determined she has the H1N1 flu and possibly meningitis.””
Over at The Federalist website, she is remembered as a vibrant gift to those who knew her:
Bre brightened the lives of everyone around her. She was joyful, hard-working, and compassionate, and she leaves behind friends and colleagues for whom she brought nothing but sweetness and light.
While Payton made her bread and butter from writing about politics and culture at a conservative media outlet, politics (of any kind) fade into irrelevancy in light of her passing. Given that Payton’s colleagues inform us that she “lived a life marked by deep Christian faith…,” I pray that the loved ones she leaves behind hold onto the same faith and are overwhelmed by God’s nearness as they walk together through a dark, deep valley of sorrow.
–Dana
To outlive one’s children has got to be the worst agony of all.
Dana (023079) — 12/28/2018 @ 3:43 pmHer voice was full of energy and humor. I loved her podcast “Problematic Women.” So sad.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/28/2018 @ 4:16 pmI never heard of her before today, but The Five @5 on Fox had a heartfelt (in every sense of the word) tribute to her. If it’s available online, try to watch it.
Kishnevi (836963) — 12/28/2018 @ 4:21 pmJust thinking that the great Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918 took mostly the young. It was also H1N1.
According to Wikipedia:
Kevin M (cb624b) — 12/28/2018 @ 5:33 pmGod that is far too young to pass away,
Narciso (b69dc9) — 12/28/2018 @ 5:35 pmmaybe we should make it to where people with these viruses can’t just walk over the border
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/28/2018 @ 6:05 pmUgh. Ignoring #6, this remains a sad moment. Agree or disagree with the young woman, she is no longer with us.
My late mother would get angry about politicians she “hated” and claimed she was “happy” when they passed away. I told her that when they died, they could never come around to her own “correct” way of thinking. She snorted.
I like to believe that she saw my point: people are valuable, even if you don’t agree with them.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/28/2018 @ 6:42 pmSigh Simon, some people cannot rise to profoundness if a crane yanked their necks.
Narciso (b69dc9) — 12/28/2018 @ 7:26 pmof course it’s sad but also the last h1n1 epidemic in america came from mexico so when you hear about h1n1 it’s normal to wonder about how it is that these things come to pass
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/28/2018 @ 7:31 pmI believe it came from China, it’s irrelevant to the all too soon passing, try to show some (redacted) respect, for once.
Narciso (b69dc9) — 12/28/2018 @ 7:35 pmchina had an h1n1 epidemic that same year we did but i think our one actually happened earlier in the year than their one
and our one came from mexico
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/28/2018 @ 7:59 pmgo to hell, hf and thank you Narciso.
if I am that one grenade that rids this site of this pestilence, it has been a pleasure
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 12/28/2018 @ 9:31 pmif you’re grumpy you could be enjoying the softly falling snow
this wasn’t in the forecast i looked at this morning
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/28/2018 @ 9:33 pmIt needed to be said, I closed the parenthesis because what I felt like saying would have tripped the filter.
Narciso (b69dc9) — 12/28/2018 @ 9:34 pmi don’t get it, how you think
if you have a rare disease which this is
and the last time we had a major incidence of it here in America it was traced to Mexico
and this new instance happened in San Diego
which is located where?
across the border from the caravan people?
then it’s not exactly sudoku is it no it’s not
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/28/2018 @ 9:38 pmWe can revisit another time, you’re such a jackass.
Narciso (b69dc9) — 12/28/2018 @ 9:40 pmPatterico, I think you should have a very special rule the day that people die: Happyfeet should not post for a day or two. He simply cannot help himself and has proven multiple times he cannot be trusted. His posts are an embarrassment to everything you are trying to do here.
I thought better of him.
Just a hint, troll: before you go mouthing off about infectious disease you might educate yourself first.
And even if you were right (which you are not), you should at least have the common decency to shut your yap the very day a young person dies.
But you cannot help yourself.
Patterico, I apologize if all of this violates your rules, but this was every bit as bad as when this awful person couldn’t help but make cancer jokes about McCain at his death.
Personally, I think you should just exile him to “The Jury Talks Back” and let people with a decent heart, whether or not I agree with them, post here. There, he could yammer on and on to himself. And maybe the people I enjoy reading would post again.
Un-be-lieve-able.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/28/2018 @ 9:49 pmfootsies, there are 185 million LEGAL border crossings from Mexico every year. Illegal entry cannot be a significant contributor to any spread of diseases, it’s simple math.
That aside, everybody needs to get their flu shot!
Dave (1bb933) — 12/28/2018 @ 9:50 pmTo blame “caravan people” for the death of Ms. Payton, without an atom of evidence, there’s really no excuse.
Paul Montagu (c0e0d4) — 12/28/2018 @ 9:57 pmthose kind of statistics don’t contend with a lot of the demographic issues relevant to the epidemiology of h1n1 i think Mr. Dave
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/28/2018 @ 9:59 pmFor the love of God, you weirdo. Shut the hell up about this for a day or two, would you?
What is wrong with you?
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/28/2018 @ 10:10 pmhere read this Mr. Montagu the last h1n1 epidemic actually started in San Diego
which is not to say correlation is causation cause it never is but it’s an interesting coincidence i think
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/28/2018 @ 10:10 pm“Illegal entry cannot be a significant contributor to any spread of diseases, it’s simple math.”
Dave (1bb933) — 12/28/2018 @ 9:50 pm
A visa requires a medical examination. Illegal entry doesn’t. It’s simple logic.
Munroe (8cb21f) — 12/28/2018 @ 10:10 pmNo it clearly isn’t. And it’s not the first time.
Narciso (b69dc9) — 12/28/2018 @ 10:13 pmA visa requires a medical examination. Illegal entry doesn’t. It’s simple logic.
Munroe (8cb21f) — 12/28/2018 @ 10:10 pm
Another Nobel Laureate heard from. No, people with multiple entry visas don’t get a medical examination every time they come to the United States. Neither do U.S. citizens or residents returning from abroad.
nk (dbc370) — 12/28/2018 @ 10:30 pmAnd that’s been fact-checked as it pertains to illegal immigrants. Most of the “caravan people” aren’t even in the US but for the asylum seekers that Trump has slow-walked to a trickle. You really got nuthin’, happy.
Paul Montagu (c0e0d4) — 12/28/2018 @ 10:33 pmAnd this is not the kind of thread you hijack. Not to discuss border control and not to express pixieish insouciance.
nk (dbc370) — 12/28/2018 @ 10:34 pmR.I.P.
NJRob (4d595c) — 12/28/2018 @ 10:42 pmthat’s not fair per se Mr. nk I didn’t do a hijack on this thread
i just thought about the post and thought oh my goodness this happened right where the caravan people are and the lethality of this presentation of h1n1 is very startling
and I made my comment and that was that
i went to watch the softly falling snow with a lovely earl grey accented with something called “egyptian licorice”
and then everyone got all hostile, which, i don’t even like it when people get super hostile
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/28/2018 @ 10:43 pmGuys, I’m sorry if my comment about H1N1 killing young people set HF off.
Kevin M (cb624b) — 12/28/2018 @ 10:55 pmi was more struck by how this happened in san diego Mr. M
but in terms of morbidity i think what they keep an eye on is if the strain becomes resistant to tamiflu
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/28/2018 @ 10:58 pmI’m sad to see the direction the post has taken. My heart is heavy for her parents who have just had their lives unexpectedly tipped over. And as I believe it is unseemly to be pointing fingers of blame on the same day that Ms. Payton died, I am closing the comments on this post.
Dana (023079) — 12/28/2018 @ 11:04 pmSince only one person has ruined the comments to a good post about a sad situation, I have moderated the commenter and reopened comments.
What a sad and sudden event.
Patterico (e2fe07) — 12/28/2018 @ 11:42 pmhttps://www.gofundme.com/bre-payton-scholarship-fund
mg (8cbc69) — 12/29/2018 @ 3:22 amSo terribly sad. We can start promoting young conservatives for the future.
I liked your comment, Kevin. I had a horrible autoimmune cross-reaction from a minor enteric infection when I was young, and I know what you were talking about.
nk (dbc370) — 12/29/2018 @ 7:28 amLooking over the past 35 posts on this subject, I would like to submit that urbanleft behind, Simon Jester, and Narciso all violated the posting rules in their personal attacks against happyfeet. I demand the satifaction of seeing them severely disciplined by the moderators of this blog. After all, shouldn’t lady justice be blind, or are some animals more equal than others?
Bendover (1b807d) — 12/29/2018 @ 9:26 amDumbest comment to appear here in weeks.
Patterico (1c8247) — 12/29/2018 @ 10:26 amPeople who cannot observe common decency, or recognize when it has been breached, will be treated differently from others. Oh the unfairness. Press the argument and I’ll unfairly moderate you too. Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
Patterico (1c8247) — 12/29/2018 @ 10:29 am38. Help! Help! I’m being repressed! 😉
Gryph (08c844) — 12/29/2018 @ 11:13 amYou know, I actaully made my comment somewhat in jest, along the lines of “A modest proposal.” But seeing the over the top response by the host, I’ve got to say I’m disappointed by the lack of self awareness of any sense of fair play. I just ask that before you ban me for my obvious affront to the you and the “decency” that so permeates this blog, you take a look thru my past (albeit infequent) postings and tell me how I merit such a response from you.
Bendover (1b807d) — 12/29/2018 @ 11:39 amPatterico, I am 100% honest when I say I would have no problem being banned for commenting if it meant I didn’t have to read hateful crap about people who have just died, or misogynistic “jokes” about the spouses of elected officials, or about people feel strongly about the rights of the unborn.
People who like to write that way and gibber like baboons can do so on Twitter, Facebook, or even their own blog.
Hoping to find decency is not a bad thing. And it looks like most people would agree that threadjacking or joking about a recent death is a good example of lack of decency.
I appreciate that my opinion is not universally held, and in fact is disagreed with (even by some folks I like and respect). But I felt like I had to speak out, and I am tired of feeling that way when I visit your blog.
So thank you for enforcing something like decency. I know you don’t have to do so.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/29/2018 @ 11:41 amSad.
steveg (a9dcab) — 12/29/2018 @ 11:42 amPrayers for the family.
Can’t imagine how difficult a time this is, and I pray that God sends them comfort and speaks kindness into their souls
Dear mg: thank you for that link at #34. Truly. I had been waiting to see if the family would set up something like it.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/29/2018 @ 11:47 amKevin #4: I teach virology and cover many immunology topics. So the H1N1 pandemic is always on my mind. I also teach about superantigens and cytokine storms.
I would like to believe that the 1918 pandemic could have been dealt with by dealing with the pneumothorax that commonly happened…but I’m not so sure. What happened here was quick.
Another reason to get vaccinated, for herd immunity if nothing else.
Still devastated for the family and friends of Bre Payton. She had a wonderful and sassy voice (her “Problematic Women” podcast was a favorite of mine) that is now silenced.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/29/2018 @ 11:51 amWould today’s vaccines work on the 2009 H1N1 flu, Simon? I think they may have replaced it with another strain last year.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/29/2018 @ 12:01 pmInfluenza vaccines are tough, DRJ (and it is great to hear from you). The “bug chasers” are now able to follow the “waves” virus that cross the country. Then (as you know) they make predictions.
Influenza is a single stranded negative RNA viruse…with “genomic” segments. Since the enzyme that replicates its genetic blueprint does not proofread (this is true for all RNA viruses), there are constant mutations. If they change the shape of the parts of the virus that our immune system “sees”—-hemagglutin and neuroamidase in particular—then our immune system has trouble “seeing” it (hence yearly epidemics). Every once in a while, cells that are coinfected with two influenza viruses give us completely new antigens with which to contend. Pandemic time. And sometimes cytokine storms, as Kevin points out.
Anyway, it’s something I teach about.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/29/2018 @ 12:12 pm45. This. It’s why some years’ flu vaccines are so ineffective, it almost doesn’t matter. Virologists have to make guesses. Educated guesses, yes, but guesses nevertheless. Most of the time they’re pretty good at it, but sometimes they do get it wrong. I personally believe that the benefits of getting the shot outweigh the potential (and minimal) risks, but I’m no doctor.
Gryph (08c844) — 12/29/2018 @ 12:28 pmAll RNA viruses are super tricky (and that includes HIV, which is a retrovirus). HIV changes enough in a given patient to be identifiable like a finger print.
Influenza isn’t that bad, but it is super tricky.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/29/2018 @ 12:36 pmThis is not difficult. On a post about someone’s death, show decency.
Patterico (1c8247) — 12/29/2018 @ 1:02 pmIn war or peace, it’s always sad when anybody young and a full life ahead passes too soon- particularly when surrounded by access to the miracles of modern medical science. Jean Harlow was just 26 when she died, too.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/29/2018 @ 1:10 pm50. Given the miracles of modern medical science, it’s humbling to consider just how much we really don’t understand about the inner workings of the human body. Sure, our study of anatomy and physiology has been made orders of magnitude easier by the discovery of preservation chemicals/emblaming fluids, but new discoveries take place to this very day on a very regular basis. I know because I took classes for a nursing program I never completed. I found it very humbling on a personal level.
Gryph (08c844) — 12/29/2018 @ 1:18 pm@51. Well, sad thing is San Diego virtually bristles w/medical and research facilities which is where this young lady passed.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/29/2018 @ 1:30 pmThe hospital did a good job evaluating her once she was admitted. Things like this happen despite everyone, including the patient, doing their best. It is tragic but that doesn’t mean someone was at fault. Nevertheless, it is very hard for the family and I feel for them in their grief.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/29/2018 @ 2:24 pmI’ve read several accounts from parents who have also lost their children to H1N1. They all (3 of them) said that it happened so abruptly, so unexpectedly, so shockingly fast that they didn’t even have time to comprehend what was going on. Only after spinal taps were done and it was confirmed, were they able to start processing the seriousness of the illness. But in several cases, their children had already succumbed to it. Just horrible stuff.
Dana (023079) — 12/29/2018 @ 3:26 pmYour welcome, Simon. Do you get a flu shot, Simon? My last one was in 67.
mg (8cbc69) — 12/29/2018 @ 3:55 pmEvery year, mg. It’s that herd immunity thing; even if it doesn’t help me, it can help others. I also got the two shingles vaccine this year. That one stung.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/29/2018 @ 3:59 pmDana, have you seen this:
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/here-s-how-flu-virus-kills-some-people-so-quickly-n839936
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/29/2018 @ 4:02 pmI was thinking about those shingles shots. People look in serious pain on shingles. I think what I was shot up with in 67 was an immunizations shot not a flu shot.
mg (8cbc69) — 12/29/2018 @ 4:07 pm58. I had shingles as a young kid. The blistering was confined to a small patch on my left shoulder, and I was soooo lucky. It felt like somebody stabbed a hot fork into me there and the pain lingered for weeks after the blistering went away. Sometimes the nerve damage is so serious that it never goes away completely, but it wasn’t quite that bad for me.
Gryph (5efbad) — 12/29/2018 @ 4:14 pmSimon Jester,
Thanks for link. Interesting stuff. Do you think people with autoimmune issues end up being more at risk since theirs systems are already at war within the body?
Dana (023079) — 12/29/2018 @ 6:01 pmAbsolutely, Dana.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/29/2018 @ 7:27 pmI’m given to understand she also contracted meningitis which seems rather a lethal combination
Narciso (1208a7) — 12/29/2018 @ 7:40 pm62. …which kind of leads me to wonder if there was more to it than flu virus. Viral meningitis is much harder to treat, but somewhat less likely to be lethal.
Gryph (5efbad) — 12/29/2018 @ 8:28 pmDana, there is a famous story that Mike K used to relate about this kind of thing. He treated a woman with serious melanoma. She was pregnant and refused chemotherapy. Melanoma, of course, is very bad news. But apparently, after giving birth, the melanoma regressed and appeared to go away.
Several years later, the woman became pregnant again, and the melanoma reappeared. It’s known that pregnant women are a bit “turned down” immunologically, which makes sense since they carry a fetus. It’s an interesting hypothesis.
So I guess I am trying to say that the immune system is very, very tricky. Since we do not live in the environment in which we evolved (we are too clean for our own good, to be simplistic), it seems pretty clear that our immune systems are not as “trained” as they might be.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/29/2018 @ 8:43 pmSince we do not live in the environment in which we evolved (we are too clean for our own good, to be simplistic), it seems pretty clear that our immune systems are not as “trained” as they might be.
If the trade-off is an 11% infant mortality rate, that would be Afghanistan where 110 out of 1,000 live births do not reach the age of five, I’ll take our cleanliness and our untrained immune systems, thank you very much.
nk (dbc370) — 12/29/2018 @ 9:06 pmnk, I see and appreciate your point. But there is some very strong evidence to suggest a “country living” sort of approach. Here is a book that does a decent job:
https://www.amazon.com/Dirt-Good-Advantage-Childs-Developing/dp/1250132606
Or a short video
https://www.pbs.org/video/why-dirt-good-childs-developing-immune-system-kmgnjh/
It would not surprise me to learn that “urban living” leads to some very odd immunological effects. We coevolved with all kinds of things that we no long “see” in our everyday lives.
That’s no excuse for tetanus, though.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/29/2018 @ 9:19 pmthanks for all the info, Simon. Never too late in the day to learn.
mg (8cbc69) — 12/29/2018 @ 10:01 pmSimon,
nk (dbc370) — 12/30/2018 @ 3:40 amI suggest that we are at that stage of our physical evolution at which the environment in which we evolved would kill 10% of us by the age of five, 50% of us by the age of thirty-five, and 90% of the remainder by the age of seventy. Unless we take advantage of our other evolutionary gifts — let’s say for the sake of argument our cerebral cortexes and opposable thumbs — to alter our environment and make it more people friendly, including using the discoveries of Dr. Pasteur and Dr. Lister to combat our invisible natural enemies the way our ancestors used stone-tipped spears to combat sabertooth tigers and dire wolves.
As for city living, I lived on a farm until age eleven. By the back door, which opened to the barns, hen yard, stables, and pens, there was a wall-mounted cistern with a spigot (very much like that but not that fancy), a basin, soap, and a towel. We would not come into the house until we had washed our hands.
nk (dbc370) — 12/30/2018 @ 4:02 amWe had a hand pump by the sink just inside the back door, grandma was always yelling wash those hands before you set foot in this house.
mg (8cbc69) — 12/30/2018 @ 6:42 amNot a thing wrong with washing your hands!
And nk, you aren’t wrong. But our immune system does need education.
Simon Jester (984e98) — 12/30/2018 @ 7:37 amWell massive overprescription of antibiotics has probably rendered it useless.
Narciso (613192) — 12/30/2018 @ 7:55 amThere is a subset of people who got the H1N1 flu who develop neurological complications like coma, GBS and/or viral or bacterial meningitis — especially bacterial infections. For them, the complications can be fatal even if the diseases alone might be mild. We don’t know what type of flu this young lady had but it may be this is true for most types.
FWIW my family’s immune system is genetically poor and has been for generations. Most of our ancestors died, sometimes at young ages. We are fortunate to have today’s medications that help us live much better lives, but we did have an allergist who believed in the country approach. He even added bacteria to his allergy extracts to desensitize his patients. I think it worked for some but it nearly killed our son before we found out and stopped it.
DRJ (46c88f) — 12/30/2018 @ 7:59 amWe can have both, you know — the benefits of modern medicine with knowledge learned through the generations. Most people have healthy immune systems and the common sense knowledge that has been passed down to us is important, but some people have rare disorders that we can help identify and offer life-saving treatments. Texas screens newborns for some of these diseases and one of them is on the list because a gifted immunologist made it happen. Surprisingly, the disease is not as rare as they thought but it is treatable and children are alive today because of what he did.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/30/2018 @ 8:23 amAnd it is a win-win. Our NIH doctors told us studying the extreme genetic immunology cases help them understand how to make everyone’s immune systems work well.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/30/2018 @ 8:28 amThe benefit of handwashing comes from friction. Using antibiotics and antibacterial products as needed are benefits I am grateful we have, but they are not substitutes for spending enough time washing our hands.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/30/2018 @ 8:38 amI was speaking of immune systems generally,
Narciso (f55044) — 12/30/2018 @ 9:25 amThen how do you explain people who have been treated with penicillin for decades — some as long as 50 years — because they had rheumatic fever as children? They still have functioning immune systems. Antibiotics aren’t dangerous per se but there are people who want us to think that.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/30/2018 @ 9:28 am78. Antibiotics are not dangerous ipso facto. Misuse of antibiotics is dangerous because no matter how hard we try, we will never completely get rid of disease-causing vectors and infectious antigens. The causes of disease themselves will always adapt. Always.
Gryph (08c844) — 12/30/2018 @ 10:22 amHow do you define misuse?
DRJ (15874d) — 12/30/2018 @ 10:51 amMy experience has been that medicine doesn’t know much about antibiotics and the specialists we’ve seen at several highly regarded medical facilities were the ones who told me this. Our family has decades of experience with infection and infectious disease doctors, but there were many years where it was hard to even find an infectious disease doctor who knew anything about diseases other than HIV/AIDS. I suspect you would have a hard time finding anyone at the best institutions who could tell you exactly what constitutes misuse of antibiotics. I know because I have asked them.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/30/2018 @ 11:15 amDRJ – I’m glad your back, even if just for a bit.
Tom M (a0a8e9) — 12/30/2018 @ 11:27 amAnd truly sad that this young lady passed so soon in what should have been a good, long life.
# 56
SJ
I got the new shingles vaccine as well… I had shingles in my 40’s across my chest and around the back. It was really painful, but I kept working. Intense pain with every move. My body has to move fast and smart to be billable regardless to pain.
My insurance didn’t want to pay for the vaccination so I gladly paid out of pocket.
Seemed dumb on the insurance companies part, because the medical attention and meds would probably cost way more than the vaccine.
I’m going to get the vaccines for flu and whooping cough or I’m not allowed to be around some of our grandkids
steveg (a9dcab) — 12/30/2018 @ 3:02 pmDRJ
steveg (a9dcab) — 12/30/2018 @ 3:07 pmBecause of my work, I use a friction heavy pumice and orange grease, dirt, poison oak, scrubber followed by the other stuff.
Anyway, nice to see everyone…. and again may God bless the family with comfort and wisdom
steveg (a9dcab) — 12/30/2018 @ 3:08 pmEvery year, mg. It’s that herd immunity thing; even if it doesn’t help me, it can help others. I also got the two shingles vaccine this year. That one stung.
Some people complain that the strains that the vaccine doesn’t cover are the ones that go around.
But d’oh.
Kevin M (cb624b) — 12/30/2018 @ 6:41 pmHow do you define misuse?
Well, using antibiotics prophylactically to allow keeping livestock cheaply in unsanitary and/or crowded conditions seems an abuse.
Kevin M (cb624b) — 12/30/2018 @ 6:46 pmSome people complain that the strains that the vaccine doesn’t cover are the ones that go around.
All I know us that the last time I got the flu shot I got the flu a couple of months later. And I generally feel so lousy that I haven’t gotten it for several years because I am afraid of the results. I do have an autoimmune disease, so there’s that… (and my family always blamed my grandmother’s final decline on the 1976 swine flu shot, although that’s probably not the real reason.)
Kishnevi (b66096) — 12/30/2018 @ 7:53 pmI used to forgo flu shots, but when I became ill every winter for six years straight, I thought to myself, “what can I lose?” The next year I had the flu shot, and every year since – no more winter illnesses. Go figure, YMMV.
felipe (023cc9) — 12/30/2018 @ 10:28 pm80. As a medical layperson, I define misuse of antibiotics as a patient begging for them, and the doctor knuckling under, when said medical professional knows damn good and well antibiotics are useless for viral afflictions.
How’s that for a start?
Gryph (08c844) — 12/31/2018 @ 6:02 amGryph (08c844) — 12/31/2018 @ 6:02 am
They’re NOT useless.
As I can prove using asimple argument.
It’s well know that farmers give or used to give antibiotics to animals becase they grew (or got fatter) faster. Now why is that? Because the body does not have to deal with fighting some subclinial in fections.
Antibiotics in viral infections therefore are the equivalent of good nutrition and vitamins. In most cases they will reduce the load on the body’s immmune system and better enable it to fight the viral infection – which also may not be an entirely viral infection alone.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2126671
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilus_influenzae
You can say a co-infection starts – and the co-infection is what increases the risk of death.
On that score – nutrition – doctors should also hand out a megadose (probably) of Vitamin A – 250,000 units, which is almost always safe if not done repeatedly. But the medical profession is as scared of Vitamin A as scared oof Vitamin A as some of their patients are of vaccines, and just as wrongly.(I am talking about real Votamin A, not beta carotene, which may be a anti-nutrient – that’s not the word, I think the right word begins with a “D” – or is it antagonist??)
And also other vitamins and nutrients. Maybe folic acid, co-enzyme Q, pantothenic acid, Vitamin C, a touch of zinc acetate. This should be studied so people shouldn’t have to guess what heps . It is utterly ridiculous to think nutrients make no difference.
And by te way it’s ascandal that there;’s no test for Vitamin Astatus – how close the body is to the storage limit which will cause toxicity. They could measure serum levels, but that’s only good maybe when there;s no infection.
Another medical myth is that feeling cold does not cause infections. Or there’s the one that glasses do not cause myopia.
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 12/31/2018 @ 8:37 amI agree there should be a reason for prescriptions, but I don’t agree that doctors should not listen to the requests by the patient or family. Doctors spend very little time with patients, and the few studies that have actually been done show doctors tend to underestimate the likelihood of bacterial infections, leading to undertreatment with antibiotics. This is especially true with children who, by definition, have immature immune systems and may present with atypical symptoms.
Pediatricians and PCPs have been encouraged to take a wait-and-see approach with kids and young, healthy patients because they either get well on their own or they get very sick. (It would be interesting to know if Ms. Payton had time to go to the doctor when she got sick and, if so, what was done.) My experience is medicine initially tells otherwise healthy patients to rest in bed, drink fluids, and call if we don’t get better in a week or two. But medicine is about statistics and while that advice works for most of us, it doesn’t work for all. Maybe the needs of the statistical majority outweigh the needs of the minority, but I think we can do better. I would start by expecting doctors to offer patients bacterial culture tests for sick visits and titer testing prior to routine immunizations. Patients can refuse if they don’t want the extra expense, but stop letting medicine and insurance make these decisions and put it back in patients’ hands.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/31/2018 @ 10:15 amIn other words, doctors should admit to patients that they are making educated guesses about our health issues, and we are betting our lives on their guesses. Most of the time I would pay for objective tests that help doctors make better guesses, and I want doctors to help me by telling me what tests there are and understand the risks if the doctor guesses wrong. In my experience, the best doctors are honest about the risks … but doctors like that typically work at places like Mayo Clinic or the NIH, and they deal with the cases everyday where mainstream medicine failed.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/31/2018 @ 10:27 amBy the way, my family and I are the lucky ones who lived long enough to get to the best doctors. Most people don’t live long enough.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/31/2018 @ 10:30 amPlus, medicine doesn’t agree on the reasons for antibiotic resistance. One of the oldest antibiotics is penicillin and it has been the drug of choice for strep for decades. In fact, the CDC says:
I don’t think medicine really understands antibiotic resistance.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/31/2018 @ 11:27 am92. Medicine doesn’t understand the process of nucleic evolution that results in resistance. I can certainly drink to that. But you know what group of microbes has been building resistance to methicillin-based antibiotics for decades?
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
That’s right: Methicillian-resistant staphylococcus aureus, also known as MRSA. And the more agressively we treat it with penicillin, the more agressively it fights back. Doctor Ian Malcom was right: Nature will always find a way.
Not all infectious bacterial antigens have the same potential for resistance, just like not all viral agents confer immunity upon a single infection. It just seems to me like we’ve treated antibiotics as wonder drugs for far too long, when in reality they’ve been a mixed blessing by any objective medical measure.
Gryph (08c844) — 12/31/2018 @ 1:38 pmI will defer to Simon on the microbial aspects but I don’t think it’s that simple and it would help if there were new drugs in the pipeline, but that hasn’t been happening for awhile.
DRJ (46c88f) — 12/31/2018 @ 2:49 pm94. If some strains of bacteria are more apt to gain resistance than others, I’d say that’s a layer of complexity that Alexander Fleming probably hadn’t anticipated when he discovered penicillin.
But just like not all math is hard (2+2 will always equal 4), maybe some aspects of infectious disease study are less complex than we might anticipate them to be.
Gryph (08c844) — 12/31/2018 @ 5:25 pmKishnevi @ 85,
I’ve also got auto-immune issue and haven’t yet gotten a shot this year. It’s concerning. Last year after the injection, I was in tremendous pain for three days. However I didn’t get the flu. But the year prior, I didn’t get a shot and I also didn’t get the flu.
Dana (023079) — 12/31/2018 @ 5:31 pmThe 3 leading causes of death in 1900 were infectious diseases but that changed because of antibiotics, vaccinations, hygiene and other public health advances. Now the leading causes of death are heart disease and cancer. The advances were so pronounced that 1960-1980’s medicine discouraged infectious disease specialism because of “the broader incorrect belief by the medical community at large that infectious diseases had been conquered.” That is why our family had trouble even finding infectious disease specialists in the 1990’s who had expertise other than in AIDS/HIV.
This is a good place to end this discussion for me but I want to make sure I say this if I was unclear above: Antibiotics are wonder drugs, and infectious diseases are far more complex than medicine realized. I think they realize it now.
DRJ (46c88f) — 12/31/2018 @ 5:44 pm97. Hey DRJ! Happy New Year/2019.
Gryph (08c844) — 12/31/2018 @ 6:04 pmHappy New Year, Gryph, and thank you for an interesting discussion.
DRJ (15874d) — 1/1/2019 @ 12:20 pmDana, did you get the flu shot or the live intranasal vaccine? I think live vaccines are contraindicated in autoimmune and immune-compromised individuals. PS, I question some of the conclusions at my link but it is a good summary of current medical opinion.
DRJ (15874d) — 1/1/2019 @ 12:30 pmA man, aged 71, who was in good health as far as anyone who spoke to him knew, who moved to Florida half a year ago, was coughing 2 days before December 31. He and his wife saw a doctor. The doctor said if you want take him to a hospital. They didn’t want, maybe the doctor didn’t recommend it.
The wife woke up at 5 am Monday December 31 and found him dead. I suppose it was the flu maybe commbined with bronchitus.
Hia mother died within the year at age 95.
The funeral was today, in Florida. He was one of three men who came when anotehr synagigue closed.
Doctors don’t recognize a very serious illness when they see it.
Thuis also hapened with the 8-year old Honduran boy who died in ICE custody.
Some disease may be going around.
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 1/2/2019 @ 2:41 pm