Saudi Prosecutor: OK, Fine, Khashoggi Was Murdered — but MBS Wasn’t Involved! Really!
Incredibly, it turns out that Jamal Khashoggi was murdered and dismembered in the consulate, just like all rational people already believed.
Saudi Arabia’s public prosecutor released the findings of a long-awaited investigation of the death of journalist Jamal Khashoggi on Thursday, saying that a team of Saudi agents who had been dispatched to Istanbul with orders to bring him home alive had instead killed the journalist and dismembered his body.
Saudi Arabia’s crown prince had no knowledge of the operation, Shaalan al-Shaalan, a spokesman for the prosecutor, said at a news conference in Riyadh, the Saudi capital.
He said that 11 suspects had been indicted and that authorities were seeking the death penalty for five of them. The order to kill Khashoggi, who had criticized the Saudi monarchy over the past year, had come from the leader of the Saudi team in Istanbul, Shaalan said without naming any of the suspects.
I was repeatedly told that this couldn’t be true because the evidence came from Turkey and Turkey can’t be trusted. But while it’s true that Turkey can’t be trusted, the evidence was still clear. People need to develop the habit of looking at evidence for what it is, and not discounting clear conclusions with corroborating evidence just because they don’t like the source.
By the way, if you believe the Saudi prosecutor’s version of events, or think that Mohammed bin Salman did not give the order, you a chump sucka.
[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]
we just don’t do due process anymore it’s not part of the zeitgeist these days
i kinda think that’s something of a pity, but it’s the hot new thing what can you do
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/15/2018 @ 7:33 amBin Salman’s denial is as believable as Trump’s comments about vote fraud, that “when people get in line that have absolutely no right to vote and they go around in circles. Sometimes they go to their car, put on a different hat, put on a different shirt, come in and vote again.”
Paul Montagu (70fe18) — 11/15/2018 @ 8:02 amThe US government is perpetuating bin Salman’s sham denial by sanctioning 17 Saudis, none of whom are bin Salman.
Actually, theocratic monarchies run by an absolute despot are kind of a throwback to a few millenia ago.
Rule of law is “the hot new thing”, being only a couple hundred years old.
Dave (9664fc) — 11/15/2018 @ 8:11 amWhy should Americans care about MBS?
Expected answer: Human Rights.
Response: So what about Cuba and China?
Expected answer: Blah, Blah, I don’t care about whataboutism.
rcocean (9d9291) — 11/15/2018 @ 8:12 am4. These days, the almighty dollar seems to trump (no pun intended) human rights abuses. China and Saudi Arabia are shining examples.
Gryph (08c844) — 11/15/2018 @ 8:15 amIts not merely about money, its this political posture of erdogan thanim and the sepah for islamism, you’ll see apologist for Qatar (soufan) erdogan, most everyone and Iran (daraghi)
narciso (d1f714) — 11/15/2018 @ 8:23 amThese days, we have a president who praised the Tiananmen massacre, “fell in love” with the last Stalinist dictator on the planet and says our country is morally equivalent to Putin’s Russia.
It’s all part of being great again, you see.
Dave (9664fc) — 11/15/2018 @ 8:31 amIts been the same complaint against the shah somoza it al, you know had this story goes.
narciso (d1f714) — 11/15/2018 @ 8:37 amWhy should Americans care about MBS?
Expected answer: Human Rights.
Response: So what about Cuba and China?Response: That worked so well in Iran in 1978.
Kevin M (a57144) — 11/15/2018 @ 9:51 amThe Saudi-Israeli-US alliance is important. We are NOT going to derail it over unprovable suspicions that MBS was involved.
As I said last month, the Saudis will round up the team that did it, and their boss (mostly for being incompetent and getting caught), then convict and execute them, saying this was the extent of the conspiracy.
And the US will agree to believe them. End of story, unless someone comes up with solid evidence that MBS ordered the hit. I haven’t seen that yet.
Kevin M (a57144) — 11/15/2018 @ 9:57 amNote the Saudi story — this team was supposed to bring him back to Saudi Arabia alive, to face “justice.” That is the point where MBS’s deniability starts — he may well have wanted this guy dead, but these were not the tactics he wanted. Bring him back, give him due process, then behead him legally, not this cowboy stuff.
Kevin M (a57144) — 11/15/2018 @ 10:01 am“People need to develop the habit of looking at evidence for what it is, and not discounting clear conclusions with corroborating evidence just because they don’t like the source.”
I heard there was a story involving Saudi intelligence, Turkish intelligence, and journalists but I can’t think of any other three classes of people whom decent men would prefer not to get involved with.
“By the way, if you believe the Saudi prosecutor’s version of events, or think that Mohammed bin Salman did not give the order, you a chump sucka.”
Yes, secret police agencies in foreign countries with broad authority to enact capital punishments under shifting tribal alliances unquestionably follow the orders of their public leaders in all things, and have absolutely no designs of their own, which is why all the US needs to do is instill the right dictator or benevolent president or whatever and all the local intel agencies will be models of transparency and probity ever after.
I am a knowledgable man and this seems like a smart take.
Izzet (b87abe) — 11/15/2018 @ 10:06 amHere’s another bone-stupid Trump trial balloon, appeasing Islamist Erdogan by kicking Gulen out of the US and potentially extraditing him to Turkey. Mr. Gulen has a green card. Michael Flynn must be smiling.
Paul Montagu (d70e62) — 11/15/2018 @ 11:47 amDid he try to buy cereal without an ID?
Dave (9664fc) — 11/15/2018 @ 12:02 pm7. Looking the other way while the Saudis and the Red Chinese s**t on their respective citizenries didn’t start with Trump. It really didn’t start in my lifetime (40+ years ago for those who may be wondering). To think of this as a Trump issue kind of misses the point.
Gryph (08c844) — 11/15/2018 @ 1:04 pmNow this is more disturbing:
https://mobile.twitter.com/davereaboi/status/1063151963037188096?p=v
narciso (d1f714) — 11/15/2018 @ 2:24 pmR.I.P. Roy Clark, guitar master
Icy (52ddd9) — 11/15/2018 @ 2:47 pmkicking Gulen out of the US
This is stupid in so many ways, both in the short-run and the long. The US has had a tradition of keeping opposition figures safe from tyrants, if only for our narrow imperial interests. Stabbing people in the back to curry favor is cowardly, at best.
Kevin M (a57144) — 11/15/2018 @ 3:38 pmGulen is like Trotsky, he made erdogans reign possible, now in the irony column, the fellow who facilitated the fatwa against rushdie, majerani, now lives in London, perhaps this is why they won’t let asia bibi into the country,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/15/2018 @ 4:39 pmTurkey is still saying it went down alittle bit differently than what Saudi Arabia now says. Saudi Arabia says his body was given to a “local collabrator” but Turkey (I think) says his body was dissolved in acid (like Czar Nicholas Romanov)
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 11/15/2018 @ 4:43 pmI’ve always wanted to believe Richard III was innocent of actually ordering the deaths of the Princes in the Tower, too, but I wouldn’t think it likely I’d win a bet about it if more evidence was about to emerge.
That said, I think Izzet’s explanation above is also plausible, but I wouldn’t bet my own money either way there, either.
And as far as tolerating evil goes, while I wouldn’t wish Khashoggi’s fate on anyone, his history of shilling for the Muslim Brotherhood doesn’t exactly make him a spotless innocent. That doesn’t make his death deserved, but there really is a lack of morally acceptable options in that region of the world.
Stephen J. (c9e1a2) — 11/15/2018 @ 4:45 pmthis was the story, I was referring to:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/nov/15/jamal-benomar-defendant-in-hacking-case-shielded-b/
benomar was spying on briody, who was associated with the uae and Israel,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/15/2018 @ 4:49 pmI can’t make this up:
https://mobile.twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1063016895107026945
Narciso (6cccd7) — 11/15/2018 @ 5:11 pmI don’t think that I’m going to believe NBC about Gulen, anymore than I believe VPN troll-bots that troll here with a new handle every other day.
nk (dbc370) — 11/15/2018 @ 5:25 pmYes those sources are likely brennan price haddad and a fourth player to be named later.
Narciso (6cccd7) — 11/15/2018 @ 5:34 pmYou can believe the State Department, though they’re denying the part about Trump wanting to barter Gulen in exchange for Turkey cooling it on Khashoggi. This is all kinds of stupid by Trump.
Paul Montagu (70fe18) — 11/15/2018 @ 5:35 pmThose words you are using montagu, …
Narciso (6cccd7) — 11/15/2018 @ 5:38 pmI can’t get too worked up about one extremist Islamist whacking another extremist Islamist somewhere other than here. It’s what they do.
Gary Hoffman (7ec1de) — 11/15/2018 @ 5:45 pmThe State Department is supposed to evaluate extradition requests. It’s its job.
Of course, we must spin it in the worst possible light for the guy who defeated our good friend Hillary, whose daughter we had given a $27,000/hour job on the expectation that Hillary would become President.
nk (dbc370) — 11/15/2018 @ 5:52 pmVPN troll-bots that troll here with a new handle every other day.
VPN exit points are well enough known that they can be blocked. Probably a WordPress script for that.
Kevin M (a57144) — 11/15/2018 @ 6:00 pmRight, nothing suspicious about that, especially right after the NBC report. The State Department has already gone over Gulen multiple times. Nothing has changed since the inept coup attempt on Erdogan, except for that assassination on Turkish soil of a Saudi national and US resident.
Paul Montagu (70fe18) — 11/15/2018 @ 6:08 pmMaybe its these sources:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1063150440420913153.html
narciso (d1f714) — 11/15/2018 @ 6:10 pmErdogan is the one whose economy is screaming, now I admit that the brotherhood now has a martyr and will act accordingly.
narciso (d1f714) — 11/15/2018 @ 6:14 pm28… yes. One less Islamist, deed done off-shore… sounds like any day ending in “Y”…
A win-win.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/15/2018 @ 6:31 pmKhashoggi was not a U.S. resident. He worked for the Washington Post on a temporary worker’s visa, likely an 0-1 or H-1B. Not that it makes a difference to me, but you seem to think worth mentioning.
nk (dbc370) — 11/15/2018 @ 6:59 pmYahoo just offered me this restrained headline
From a site that calls itself the Intelligencer.
kishnevi (5f8436) — 11/15/2018 @ 7:05 pmThere is a bigger story than this truly epic fustercluck, I mean this kind of screwup throws you into dr. Evils volcano lair. It’s about the dominance of the three parties mentioned earlier over the west and istael.
Narciso (6cccd7) — 11/15/2018 @ 7:22 pmWe have enough real things to fuss over when it comes to Trump. We don’t need to make up stuff.
nk (dbc370) — 11/15/2018 @ 7:24 pmIt’s not as bad as the Russian in bruges team, which failed to get the main target e entirely and killed random people. They have probably been fed to bears.
Narciso (6cccd7) — 11/15/2018 @ 7:27 pmHe was a US resident.
I don’t know why you’re trying to spin his US residency into something less.
Paul Montagu (70fe18) — 11/15/2018 @ 7:38 pmI don’t know if anything will come of this:
https://mobile.twitter.com/RandPaul/status/1063171072298807297?p=v
narciso (d1f714) — 11/15/2018 @ 7:43 pmGreen light at Nazare for the big wave tour. If you want a rush look up Nazare.
mg (9e54f8) — 11/15/2018 @ 7:51 pmHe was a US resident.
I don’t know why you’re trying to spin his US residency into something less.
Paul Montagu (70fe18) — 11/15/2018 @ 7:38 pm
Do you even read what you copy and paste?
nk (dbc370) — 11/15/2018 @ 8:11 pmSo the point of this exercise for the last month has been to push the icg narrative, which is firmly Islamist and anti Israel
Narciso (6cccd7) — 11/15/2018 @ 8:57 pmYes, do you? He was a US resident under a visa that gave him three years of US residency.
Paul Montagu (70fe18) — 11/16/2018 @ 7:33 pmAn O-1 is a non-resident visa. Look it up, Google is your friend. The spin is in calling him a resident.
nk (dbc370) — 11/16/2018 @ 7:44 pmYes, Google is my friend, and the answer is that it’s more complicated because it depends on whether he met the Substantial Presence Test (link). Since his three children are US citizens, I would say that the reporting that he is a US resident is accurate.
Paul Montagu (70fe18) — 11/16/2018 @ 7:56 pmYes, Google is my friend, and the answer is that it’s more complicated because it depends on whether he met the Substantial Presence Test (link).
From your own link:
Seriously, sir, read what you copy and paste. The Substantial Presence Test is for tax purposes.
Since his three children are US citizens, I would say that the reporting that he is a US resident is accurate.
I would call that “your spin”.
nk (dbc370) — 11/16/2018 @ 8:05 pmIndeed, which means you can define US resident as broadly or narrowly as you prefer. You chose narrow. Ho hum.
Paul Montagu (70fe18) — 11/17/2018 @ 7:30 am