Veterans Day and Armistice Day
It’s Veterans Day as well here in the United States, and it is appropriate to thank all veterans on this day. Thank you all.
But as the 100th anniversary of the armistice that ended World War I, it is also an appropriate time to join the rest of the world in commemorating the anniversary of that particular day. We need not celebrate the later Treaty of Versailles, which contributed to the atmosphere resulting in World War II and the Holocaust, to celebrate the end of such a brutal and pointless war.
On the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month in Paris (a time that passed hours ago), 100 years ago today, World War I ended. The war killed a minimum of 16 million people and contributed to the deaths of as many as 100 million. War is sometimes the answer to a set of problems, but rarely. More often, as the war in Yemen today, it leaves people blown to bits, or starving, and always miserable, for no good discernable purpose. Hopefully the message of the end of World War I can reverberate today and help put a stop to stupid and pointless conflicts of our modern day as well. And this day can be a day in which we think about peace, and thank our military members primarily for their efforts in helping to maintain peace.
[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]
Ding.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/11/2018 @ 11:40 amin the nick of time a hero arose
a funny-lookin dog with a big black nose
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/11/2018 @ 11:41 amThe Kaiser called the British troops “an army of mercenaries. A. E. Housman responded with this poem:
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth’s foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling,
And took their wages, and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth’s foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay.
It’s sarcasm, I think.
nk (dbc370) — 11/11/2018 @ 11:52 amBut Kaiser Billy was repeating an old line.
You know that quote from Dr. Johnson about patriotism being the last resort of scroundels? He was actually referring to the British Army, and its habit of recruiting from the dregs of society, and all those men who had a reason to put some distance between themselves and justice, whether administered formally by judges or informally by the local community.
kishnevi (bb03e6) — 11/11/2018 @ 11:56 amCaught the ceremonies televised from Paris overnight. Only two ‘presidents’ showed up ‘late’ on their own, not walking with the other invited leaders to the reviewing area beneath the Arc de Triomphe– Trump and Putin. And thankfully, for a change, neither were the center of attention.
On whole, one of the more moving events from Europe to view in years- opening w/t the tolling bells of Notre Dame at 11 AM — and the readings by youngsters of letters and diary entries written by soldiers in November, 1918.
If you can catch any part of it re-aired on C-SPAN, do so. C’est magnifique.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/11/2018 @ 12:01 pmSo much evil grew out of that war – Soviet communism (and all its inhuman side effects and imitators), Nazism and the holocaust, WW2 with its wholesale slaughter across the globe, Chinese communism (which competed with the Soviets in brutality). Even the US briefly became a socialized dictatorship under Wilson’s war measures.
My grandmother said that her side of the family was related to Corporal Alvin York by marriage. York received the Congressional Medal of Honor for an October 1918 attack on a machine-gun nest in which he took 130 German soldiers prisoner.
Respect and gratitude to all our veterans.
Dave (9664fc) — 11/11/2018 @ 12:53 pmI think about this every time I see a person in the service or a veteran sneered at with dumb juvenile names like “tatters.”
It generally comes from people who have made no sacrifices toward anything more important than their own most recent trip to Whole Foods.
I myself was never in the service. But I recognize that, even in times of peace, folks who served did more than I ever have, and merit respect and dignity.
Other people can have different ideas, of course.
But on this day in particular, I hope that we can give that a rest and recognize folks who truly have served their country. And support them.
Simon Jester (2eda7b) — 11/11/2018 @ 1:05 pmThey deserve so much more than they receive. May God bless them and their families for their sacrifice.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/11/2018 @ 1:09 pmI don’t know how genuine his act, but he has been encouraged here for 12 years or more, one fights for their brothers as much as for any nation, otherwise remagen, or rapido river, or khe sanh makes no sense, as they say that determination is for those with a higher pay grade, kipling in tommy, noted similar complaints 130 some years ago, re events in a familiar bailiwick, my distant cousin wondered about fighting in one particular piece of swamp some nearly 60 years ago, other relatives served in Vietnam, with less complaints,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/11/2018 @ 1:41 pm@2. So he asked ‘The Great Pumpkin’ for a new battle plan, eh, Mr. Feet?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vMomifl-EY
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/11/2018 @ 1:59 pmwas that really it, conscripts vs. a professional military, well how well did the Kaiser or napoleon fare in those contests
narciso (d1f714) — 11/11/2018 @ 2:27 pmOne inspiring story out of countless others:
On June 2, 1918, Captain Lloyd Williams was leading his company of Marines up to support the French at the decisive battle of Belleau Wood. They encountered French troops being driven back by the Germans, and the French colonel in command scribbled a note telling Williams and the Americans to retreat. Williams responded, “Retreat, hell! We just got here!”
Nine days later Williams was killed leading an attack that routed the Germans at Belleau Wood, but at a terrible cost. Of the 10 officers and 250 men that started the attack, only one officer and 16 men escaped injury. Mortally wounded by shrapnel and gassed, Williams refused medical attention on the field, telling the medics “Don’t bother with me, take care of my good men.”
Dave (9664fc) — 11/11/2018 @ 3:12 pmI mean, one wonders what is the point of Afghanistan, I thought it was a forward area to reach the Taliban in Pakistan, but that doesn’t appear to be the case,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/11/2018 @ 3:35 pmCzechoslovakia was borned after the ww1 – a brand new democracy! And it was very lovely.
We honor this here in Chicago… a glorious almost tolkienesque statue anchors the east end of the midway plaisance, in honour of Mr. Tomas Masaryk, the first president of this nascent land.
Here’s a gorgeous shot of it what capture the majesty of it nicely…
It’s a Blanik night, is what it is…
Here’s one of the more better accounts of this legend I’ve found…
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/11/2018 @ 3:36 pmAfghanistan’s sublimely silly we’re still spending buttloads of money on taht crap cause the pentagon dorks don’t have the sense god gave a grapenut
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/11/2018 @ 3:37 pmoopers *that* crap i mean
got a new computer but waiting on a bluetoother keyboard for it so typing’s even more challenging than usual
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/11/2018 @ 3:37 pmWorld War I taught the important “never again” lesson, which is why men of good will did nothing to stop Hitler until it was too late. A piece of moral preening that cost about 50,000,000 additional lives.
LTEC (7100a8) — 11/11/2018 @ 3:39 pmWell said.
The Great War and the Influenza Pandemic were a one two punch to the gut of humanity.
harkin (5789d5) — 11/11/2018 @ 4:18 pmHindsight is 20-20. We know today that Hitler was determined to have war (a mindset incomprehensible to the staid gentlemen who ran Britain at the time) , but he might have been just a saber-rattling Germany-First nationalist. Until the Prague coup of March 1939, Hitler had only occupied places where Germans lived and where the majority welcomed German annexation. If all Hitler had wanted was some border-adjustments in regions where Britain and France had no vital interests, starting another war would have been criminal.
Another point often overlooked is that Britain and the right-of-center French governments before 1936 viewed the Soviet Union as a threat equally or more dangerous, and Hitler as a counter-balance to that threat. And they were right – Stalin happily cut a deal that ensured a German-Western war that he expected to be prolonged and drag down both sides.
Fortunately, British rearmament had begun, as insurance, years before, and although it started more slowly than Germany’s due to the constraints in a democracy, in 1938-39 Britain and France were both closing the mobilization gap that Germany’s head start had opened up. By the spring of 1940, Britain and France were ahead of Germany quantitatively in many categories of weapons, and in some key areas like tanks and fighters they were arguably ahead qualitatively as well. The Battle of France was lost because the Allies were outmaneuvered and out-generaled, not because they were out-gunned.
Dave (9664fc) — 11/11/2018 @ 4:48 pmHere is Leonard Cohen reciting In Flanders Field. It’s terribly moving, and the accompanying photos are haunting and beautiful.
Dana (023079) — 11/11/2018 @ 5:35 pmDave (9664fc) — 11/11/2018 @ 4:48 pm
Have ever read William Manchester’s Alone? It’s the second volume of what he intended to be a three volume biography of Churchill. (A stroke intervened. The completion, based on his notes, by one of his mentees simply does not compare.)
Manchester was completely unforgiving of the British (and also French) politicos.
kishnevi (5f8436) — 11/11/2018 @ 5:43 pmWW 1 led to more than WW 2. It was directly responsible for Lenin and then Stalin imposing a bloody tyranny on Russia, and tens of millions of deaths.
And a cold war that lasted almost 45 years.
Its interesting to speculate what would have happened if the USA had stayed out, and a compromise peace had been negotiated in 1918.
rcocean (1a839e) — 11/11/2018 @ 6:24 pmOr if Queen Victoria had exercised a wee bit of birth control.
nk (dbc370) — 11/11/2018 @ 6:48 pmNo, I haven’t read that. But WWII and its origins are kind of a hobby of mine, and I’ve worked on the design of a couple boardgames simulating it, so I’ve read quite a few others.
Cry Havoc: How the Arms Race Drove the World to War, 1931-41 by Joseph Maiolo is one of the more interesting perspectives.
I’d say the most damning criticism of the western leadership is that they were too slow to question their assumption that Hitler was a rational actor. In a post-Hitler world, with the benefit of hindsight, it seems like an obvious thing to do, but they didn’t have that benefit.
And Chamberlain’s policies were influenced by the fact that he was virulently anti-communist and anti-Soviet.
Dave (9664fc) — 11/11/2018 @ 6:58 pmYes but one can’t understand the oxford peace pledge without the carnage of world war one, Kim philby chose to hide in the guise of the pro German societies instead of obvious left wing associations similar to Robert Hansen in this country.
Narciso (dceb8c) — 11/11/2018 @ 7:10 pmFrom the premise it misunderstood what drove the road to war, Hitler spelled it out very clearly to avenge Versailles to rain judgement on the Jews to enslave the Soviet union.
Narciso (dceb8c) — 11/11/2018 @ 7:13 pmMark Steyn’s column on the end of the war reminds us of a fact that I had read a few years ago and just stunned me for the sheer stupidity of it all. The final negotiated cease-fire agreement was concluded around 5:00 am on November 11, but for whatever reason they determined that it wouldn’t go into effect until 11:00 am. So, with nothing better to do, both sides went back to shelling each other across the lines until the moment the armistice went into effect. This led to an additional 2,400 deaths among the British, 1,700 among the French, 3,000 among the Americans, and 4,100 among the Germans. As Steyn reminds us, that is a larger death toll than on D-Day twenty-six years later.
Martin Gilbert tells the story of Private George Price of His Majesty’s Canadian Forces in the village of Ville-sur-Haine east of Mons, who like the rest of his unit was waiting for the hour to come and thus bring the war to an official close. Suddenly a shot from a German sniper rang out, hitting Pvt. Price and killing him instantly. It was two minutes until eleven.
JVW (42615e) — 11/11/2018 @ 8:13 pmOh they left out that detail:
https://www.frontpagemag.com/point/271917/media-praises-frances-macron-bashing-trump-daniel-greenfield#.W-jg7hDl0K8.twitter
Narciso (dceb8c) — 11/11/2018 @ 8:22 pmBlood simple. Dashiell Hammett coined the term in Red Harvest and the Coen brothers used it in their first movie. Joel Coen’s interpretation is as good as any: “It’s an expression he [Hammett] used to describe what happens to somebody psychologically once they’ve committed murder. They go ‘blood simple’ in the slang sense of ‘simple,’ meaning crazy.”
nk (dbc370) — 11/11/2018 @ 8:24 pmThat Is devastating the battle of new Orleans was similar but nowhere was bloody.
Considering the tangle of alliance that drew Serbia against Russia and then France and britain.
Narciso (dceb8c) — 11/11/2018 @ 8:28 pmYou mean Serbia drew Russia against Austria-Hungary.
nk (dbc370) — 11/11/2018 @ 8:31 pmIt was a real mess, one might argue the mess was building since the agadir crisis among different parties.
Narciso (5c23e5) — 11/11/2018 @ 8:43 pmParis 1919: Six months that changed the world. By Margaret Macmillan
mg (9e54f8) — 11/11/2018 @ 9:33 pmGood read. Woodrow Wilson was a dope.
Clemenceau wanted revenge for sedan, that was true, the previous time they had tangled with germany.
Narciso (5c23e5) — 11/11/2018 @ 9:44 pmHer great grandfather was lloyd George
Narciso (5c23e5) — 11/11/2018 @ 9:48 pmmy favorite picture is americans landing in normandy on d-day. captain anti-fascists attack large group of nationalist fascists.
lany (3ee920) — 11/11/2018 @ 9:48 pmStalin wanted it two years earlier, of course with out the molotov pact, the war couldn’t have happened at all.
Narciso (5c23e5) — 11/11/2018 @ 9:51 pmBut the rank and file servicemen can’t make these decisions.
A mushroom cloud over Berlin would have been a prettier picture. But Hiroshima was nice too.
nk (dbc370) — 11/11/2018 @ 11:30 pmWar is sometimes the answer to a set of problems, but rarely.
I would err in the opposite direction. It is a very uncomfortable truth, and yet a truth it is, that words that are not backed up by the serious threat of violence are not taken seriously. If one adopts a policy of nonviolence at virtually any cost, one will eventually endure much worse violence at a much greater cost. Strength is not strength if it is not exercised when appropriate.
Skorcher (4b4961) — 11/12/2018 @ 5:18 am“If any question why we died / Tell them, because our fathers lied.”
Scott Collier (b25cd1) — 11/12/2018 @ 6:05 am–Kipling
Benford Berlin secret describes that scenario.
Narciso (71ac81) — 11/12/2018 @ 6:25 amHad Chamberlain pushed a little, the German general staff might have been able to depose Hitler, or at least throttle the machinery of death within Germany
Narciso (71ac81) — 11/12/2018 @ 6:33 amHad Chamberlain pushed a little, the German general staff might have been able to depose Hitler, or at least throttle the machinery of death within Germany
Hitler had no trouble consolidating his power throughout the 30s — Hindendurg gave him no trouble at the beginning of his reign. Pushing a little meant responding militarily to Hitler’s various provocations, such as the re-arming of the Rhineland — not some secret nudge. In an era where Stalin was seen as the bigger threat, that does not seem plausible, and would have been better handled by the French — who alternated between future Vichy people like Laval, and Popular Front people, who were drenched in the anti-war feeling of the age.
Appalled (d07ae6) — 11/12/2018 @ 7:16 amMunich was a hinge point, certainly.
Narciso (61bec9) — 11/12/2018 @ 7:25 amWould Hitler have started WWII in 1938 over the the Sudentenland? I would say yes. And France probably would have been as worthless about launching an offensive from their territory, so likely onw with much the same trajectory.
So, an earlier War, and maybe a shorter one. But not one avoided by the overthrow of Hitler.
Appalled (d07ae6) — 11/12/2018 @ 7:38 amHad Chamberlain pushed a little, the German general staff might have been able to depose Hitler, or at least throttle the machinery of death within Germany
That is post-war Adenauerian German rehabilitation revisionism.
The German officer corps under Hitler were the same breed of scum-buckets that they were under the Kaiser. They had thrown in their lot with him since 1934, when they stayed in their barracks while the SS purged the SA in the Night of the Long Knives. They wanted the “glory”, the commands, the promotions, the conquests, and the loot that they thought war would bring them.
A handful of sour apples did plot a feeble a coup in 1939 when Hitler reorganized the command structure of the Wehrmacht, but the rest gleefully took part in the rape of Europe until 1944 when another handful saw that they were going to lose the war and the hangmen coming for them from both East and West. Konrad Adenauer, with the help of Cold War paranoia, managed to shift the blame to the SS and low-number Nazi Party members, but all of the German war machine was fully complicit in the Nazis atrocities.
nk (dbc370) — 11/12/2018 @ 7:40 amLooking at the long view, maybe their might have been a rebellion, the general staff went along because of the appeasement, maybe he doesn’t invade Greece and salonika remains intact,
Narciso (61bec9) — 11/12/2018 @ 8:05 amThat was strategy. Hitler did not want to be diverted from Barbarossa by invading Yugoslavia and Greece, but he had no choice after the Greeks put sand in his Vaseline by wiping out Mussolini’s army, and the Yugoslavians likewise threw out their collaborationist king and renounced the Tripartite Pact.
nk (dbc370) — 11/12/2018 @ 8:21 amI brought one topical example, would Mussolini have gone on without hitlers say so.
Narciso (e1af30) — 11/12/2018 @ 8:27 amFor the WW2 and Hitler historians, you might want to look up ‘Hitler In Hell’ by the famous Israeli military historian Martin Van Creveld.
Ingot9455 (01eb06) — 11/12/2018 @ 8:34 amIt’s a psychological novel told from the point of view of Hitler in hell (where, by the way, there are no dogs because all dogs to go heaven – a special torture for Hitler) writing his memoirs. It’s exquisitely researched and explains how Hitler’s background clearly feeds into and explains his decision-making as well as having interesting details about his relationships with Hindenburg and Ludendorff (whom we saw in the Wonder Woman movie.)
God Bless those that have served for our freedom.
mg (9e54f8) — 11/12/2018 @ 8:34 amMahalo.
“what is the point of Afghanistan”
I think the main reason we are over there now is to keep the Chinese out. My friend’s son did 2 tours over there w. Nat’l Guard. We do a lot of good over there. Building schools etc. One hopes it is appreciated.
JRH (f51cae) — 11/12/2018 @ 9:04 amhappy veterans day, martha mcsally
poop-poop-a-doop and a ding-a-ding-dally
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/12/2018 @ 9:05 amHappy veterans day, Mr Trump.
Stay warm and dry.
Rain and cemeteries are for losers and Eurotrash.
While real heroes stop the Florida voting.
With wise, fearless tweets.
Appalled (d07ae6) — 11/12/2018 @ 9:29 amI think the main reason we are over there now is to keep the Chinese out.
Why, given the godforsaken nature of that place, do we want to do that? I was for the war there given the context of 9/11, but once bin laden was killed (what seven years ago now?) I have no idea why we are still there. Let the Chinese have it. When two of your enemies are willing to fight each other, why bother getting in the way?
JSkorcher (4b4961) — 11/12/2018 @ 9:30 amI think the war has shifted away from south Asia and the middle east to Europe and the United states, which makes for a much harder battlefield.
Narciso (5c23e5) — 11/12/2018 @ 9:36 amMy heart goes out to all the brave soldiers who fought on our side against the tyrants in our World Wars.
The horrors of war are unimaginable. I know one guy who wasn’t shot, but a soldier in front of him was, and his bone shattered, flying into him. To this day, he’s still walking around, more than likely with the other man’s bone shrapnel embedded in his abdomen.
Tillman (61f3c8) — 11/12/2018 @ 9:38 amWhy, given the godforsaken nature of that place, do we want to do that? I was for the war there given the context of 9/11, but once bin laden was killed (what seven years ago now?) I have no idea why we are still there. Let the Chinese have it. When two of your enemies are willing to fight each other, why bother getting in the way?
I’m not smart enough to know all the ins and outs of it. Short answer, the Chinese are taking over the world by building ports wherever they want and lending the host nations lots of money. They own Sri Lanka, are about to own Pakistan. And would very much like to own Afghanistan.
JRH (f51cae) — 11/12/2018 @ 9:44 amWe are trying to keep the Chinese from building an India sandwich.
JRH (f51cae) — 11/12/2018 @ 9:48 amYet Chinas heading for a crash, with all their misallocation of funds.
Narciso (5c23e5) — 11/12/2018 @ 9:49 amMy next door neighbor was sharing some of the pics of his days as a helicopter pilot over in Vietnam. I was amazed to see he hadn’t changed much in appearance, just grayer and a tad chubbier.
Colonel Haiku (311cb7) — 11/12/2018 @ 10:04 amShort answer, the Chinese are taking over the world by building ports wherever they want and lending the host nations lots of money. They own Sri Lanka, are about to own Pakistan. And would very much like to own Afghanistan.
Yet Chinas heading for a crash, with all their misallocation of funds.
What Narciso says.
How much of Sri Lanka they own vs. what they think they own, Pakistan as well is one thing. But even given that, it’s like trying to win Monopoly with hotels on Mediterranean and Baltic. I’m more concerned about squatters taking over Park Place and Boardwalk (and Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and Pacific, and etc. etc. etc.).
JSkorcher (4b4961) — 11/12/2018 @ 10:32 amWe do a lot of good over there. Building schools etc. One hopes it is appreciated.
My fear is that all of this progress is extremely ephemeral, and will disappear ten minutes after our last soldier has left that godforsaken part of the world.
JVW (42615e) — 11/12/2018 @ 10:41 amThe Soviet Union was headed for a crash for 70+ years.
Ingot9455 (01eb06) — 11/12/2018 @ 10:51 amThere’s a lot of ruin in a nation.
look who came to dinner
https://ahvalnews.com/france-turkey/french-intellectuals-protest-macron-inviting-erdogan-first-world-war-ceremonies
narciso (d1f714) — 11/12/2018 @ 3:57 pmI’ve written a long piece about armistice day every year for close to two decades. This year’s, I posted to medium.
https://medium.com/@robertwest_84812/for-none-now-live-who-remember-55efedf26424
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 11/12/2018 @ 4:31 pm