Is Fauxcahontas Really Pocahontas?
That’s what The Daily Beast tells us in this headline (well, they put it a different way):
I’d say it’s really more like this:
Or, more accurately: "Yes, the results suggest a single Native American ancestor eight generations ago." https://t.co/XsLjFGUh20 https://t.co/6BkXQj1mdW
— Patterico (@Patterico) October 15, 2018
The original story broke in the Boston Globe, with a more cautious headline: Warren releases results of DNA test.
Senator Elizabeth Warren has released a DNA test that provides “strong evidence’’ she had a Native American in her family tree dating back 6 to 10 generations, an unprecedented move by one of the top possible contenders for the 2020 Democratic nomination for president.
Warren, whose claims to Native American blood have been mocked by President Trump and other Republicans, provided the test results to the Globe on Sunday in an effort to defuse questions about her ancestry that have persisted for years. She planned an elaborate rollout Monday of the results as she aimed for widespread attention.
The analysis of Warren’s DNA was done by Carlos D. Bustamante, a Stanford University professor and expert in the field who won a 2010 MacArthur fellowship, also known as a genius grant, for his work on tracking population migration via DNA analysis.
You can read the actual DNA report itself here. The relevant statement is this:
The total and average segment size suggest (via the method of moments) an unadmixed Native American ancestor in the pedigree at approximately 8 generations before the sample.
The word “suggest” elsewhere in the report is strengthened to “strongly support” in the conclusion, although no additional data is added to explain why the conclusion is stronger. Also, in the conclusion, the likely generation is widened into a range of generations (6-10) which conveniently comes closer to fitting Warren’s narrative of a great-great-great grandmother who was Native American.
The important upshot: Trump was right to call her Pocahontas instead of Fauxcahontas!
He’s always right, you know.
UPDATE: The Boston Globe has issued a correction:
Due to a math error, a story about Elizabeth Warren misstated the ancestry percentage of a potential 10th generation relative. It should be 1/1,024.
As commenter harkin points out, that’s a fraction, not a percentage, but keep trying, guys.
When you convert to a percentage, you get Warren having .0976% Native American blood. Here’s the thing, though: that is totally unremarkable and indeed about half the average for an American of European ancestry.
On average, the scientists found, people who identified as African-American had genes that were only 73.2 percent African. European genes accounted for 24 percent of their DNA, while .8 percent came from Native Americans.
Latinos, on the other hand, had genes that were on average 65.1 percent European, 18 percent Native American, and 6.2 percent African. The researchers found that European-Americans had genomes that were on average 98.6 percent European, .19 percent African, and .18 Native American.
Could Donald Trump be more of a native American than Warren? Based on these numbers, that seems likely.
Calling this any sort of vindication for Warren is utterly laughable.
UPDATE x2: If my math is correct, the percentage for the eighth generation (the most likely according to the report) would be .39% — about double the average for the average American of European descent, and still a minuscule amount.
[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]
The issue was never whether Warren had some native american dna. It was whether she got her job by claiming she was a minority, or, alternatively, whether Harvard used her picayune heritage to claim the native american quota was filled. I don’t recall that question ever quite getting answered. She certainly would not be admitted to any tribe with her 1-2% blood.
But, I suspect the goalposts have been successfully moved now.
Appalled (96665e) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:30 amEight generations before the sample:
1. Parent: 1/2
2. Grandparent: 1/4
3. Great grandparent: 1/8
4. Great great grandparent: 1/16
5. Great great great grandparent: 1/32
6. Great great great great grandparent: 1/64
7. Great great great great great grandparent: 1/128
8. Great great great great great great grandparent: 1/256
How did they ever let her off the reservation? Don’t nobody sell her guns or serve her liquor!
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:42 amAppalled, has anyone ever shown evidence that either of this things happened? I know it’s possible. But I haven’t see anything solid that it’s real.
Time123 (b4d075) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:46 amSo somewhere betwixt great great great great grandparent and great great great great great great great great?
As Appalled says, the tribes would mock her for trying to claim NA status.
But good enough for govt. work……..
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:47 amIs The Daily Beast also known for its power glutes and milky loads, or was that The Atlantic at the time?
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:48 amMy money’s on 1/1024th Native American.
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:53 ambuffalo woman big pathetic
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:53 amIf she is native American, I am Spartacus.
Ed from SFV (6d42fa) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:55 amI’m Spartacus!
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:56 amTest shows she’s 99.996 parts European, claims it makes her Native American.
And they wonder why healthcare costs went up for taxpayers.
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:59 amAnd, as DNA research shows, there’s no such person as a Native American.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/247747.php
They are no more native than I am. They just got here earlier.
Technically, they’re Asian which means they’re actually part of a minority that schools like Harvard don’t want so much.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/13/us/harvard-affirmative-action-asian-students.html
Munroe (03afec) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:01 amjust recently here dianne feinstein enthusiastically depreciated the brand equity of “rape” and now pickles here is cheapening the hell out of “native american ancestry”
these women are disgusting
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:01 amThe Boston Globe has issued a correction:
That puts her percentage at .097.
Dana (023079) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:05 amshe’s a disgusting racist i hate her so much
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:07 amOne thing’s for sure. She would never be given the opportunity to collect monthly checks re: a tribe’s mineral rights on native lands.
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:09 am13… what do I win!?!?
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:10 amThe Globe is already admitting they erred on the side of the liberal (imagine that).
“CORRECTION: Due to a math error, a story about Elizabeth Warren misstated the ancestry percentage of a potential 10th generation relative, it should be 1/1024.”
They should hire nk as a math checker. And isn’t 1/1024 a fraction, not a percentage?
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:10 amIt’s even worse than that if you read the articles.
Ingot9455 (82c9ce) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:12 amThe various databases have very little Native American DNA. So they fake it with South American/Indo-European tribal DNA and pretend they can tease out the differences.
Upshot is, it’s just as likely that she has a strand of Mongol DNA from their European mingling, or South American Meztizo from colonial times as ‘native american’.
She must be of Chappaquiddick blood.
mg (da6caf) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:12 amLol, mg.
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:17 amTime123:
Here is the report from Snopes, which reflects the state of play:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/elizabeth-warren-wealthy-native-american/
Basically, Warren admits to identifying as native-american, but claims she never received a material benefit from doing so, and didn’t know Harvard was putting her out as native american.
Appalled (96665e) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:19 amActually, the relevant statement is this:
“To make up for the dearth of Native American DNA, Bustamante used samples from Mexico, Peru, and Colombia to stand in for Native American.”
Which makes her claim of North American Indian ancestry just as dubious as before.
Tom (e99eb6) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:21 amso i found this at jewel it’s a nonfat coffee cream
it comes in a dinky bottle and it was on sale for like $3.60
the bottle lasted maybe a day and a half so i decided to figure this out on my own
here is what you do – this will make a really creamy cup of coffee but you can dial it back to taste (the first time i really overdid it and made an interesting coffee pudding)
all you need is skim milk and arrowroot flour
so far I think the best way is to do this by the cup
so far every admixture i’ve tried sees the arrowroot precipitating out and sticking to the bottom of whatever i put it in
grab your mug and then you mix the skim and maybe a half teaspoon of arrowroot – mix mix mix (this is very very key: the call this “making a slurry” – but the key thing is you mix the arrowroot with something cold before adding something hot)
you can put this in the microwave for 29 seconds so it doesn’t end up cooling the coffee overmuch
then add coffee!
yay america it’s not calorie-free but it’s all good things
the arrowroot adds fiber and vitamins and calciums and it can impart a subtle but very very pleasant flavor of its own and goldens up nicely with a pinch of turmeric – you wouldn’t notice this in coffee so much but it’s a nice addition to an afternoon cup of oolong or green tea
american indian towns have check cashers and fast food restaurants and that’s pretty much it
they don’t add anything to the world culturally
this is why i tend to drive around these places using automobiles or cars or other conveyances
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:24 amI am not aware of any tribe who would accept her based on heritage.
Are we supposed to tell them who is one of them and who is not? I wanna see that action play out!
Can I be be a Mashantucket Pequot? Oh please Oh please Oh please! Lord knows I have contributed to their advancement!
Ed from SFV (6d42fa) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:26 amShe’s more Neanderthal than anything else.
mg (da6caf) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:26 amI bought a sweet squash blossom outside Winslow, AZ several years ago.
I hereby claim my Navajo ancestry… my name shall be Notah Tahe… loose translation: Dances With Beaded Lizard.
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:28 amhappyfeet, Do you drive a hot rod Lincoln?
mg (da6caf) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:28 amSounds like a lot of trouble, happyfeet. I just use half and half (Trader Joe’s version has no carbs!) and unsweetened almond milk for flavor. Beats the sugary International Delight stuff I used to use.
Patterico (115b1f) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:29 amI made these almond flour biscuits yesterday! They’re very tasty and buttery. I used them to make a super low carb sausage biscuit this morning.
Patterico (115b1f) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:30 amThis is like in The Seven Samurai where Toshiro Mufine is pretending to be a samurai when he is really only a peasant who found a great big sword somewhere and when the other samurai question him about it he brings a samurai family record to prove that he really is a samurai but besides not being a samurai he also does not know how to read not that I blame him because Kanshi is very difficult to learn but the point is that the other samurai do know how to read like how all real samurai could and they read in the family record that the person he is pretending to be would now be a thirteen-year old child which is a very big humiliation for him but eventually he gets over it and Horst Bucholz gets to play him in the remake in which he is also ridiculous but not any more ridiculous than the characters of Yul Bryner and James Coburn but thankfully Steve McQueen and Eli Wallach pulled the movie through so that it’s not a total loss and the theme is very stirring too.
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:36 ami’m avoiding fat right now so all your dairy stuff and your plant milks have fat
i know i know fat’s the new hotness and carbs are the bugaboo
but i had an epiphany and decided that low fat plus lots of resistant starch might be a more sustainable long-term approach and so far it’s been nicely effective
(it’s lots of fish and vegetables and egg whites and chicken breast and rice and pasta)
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:37 amUPDATE: The Boston Globe has issued a correction:
As commenter harkin points out, that’s a fraction, not a percentage, but keep trying, guys.
When you convert to a percentage, you get Warren having .0976% Native American blood. Here’s the thing, though: that is totally unremarkable and indeed about half the average for an American of European ancestry.
Could Donald Trump be more of a native American than Warren? Based on these numbers, that seems likely.
Calling this any sort of vindication for Warren is utterly laughable.
Patterico (115b1f) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:39 ami don’t have a car in Chicago Mr. mg
i hate driving here it’s super-oppressive with all the cameras they have and parking’s hard and it just got to be a hassle for me
uber and amazon go a really long way
every once in awhile i need to rely on car people like my friend F
we’re gonna go check out this place soon and you kinda need a car cause they don’t have any tables so everyone eats in their car
i think you can get extra and freeze it too depending on what you get
btw this restaurant was about to switch to fried stuff only before anthony bourdain saved it
but he couldn’t save himself just the tasty smoked fish
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:45 amOTOH, NYT results suggest Trump is not a self-made man.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:48 amThe Plymouth Plantation needs help and is willing to hire natives.
mg (9e54f8) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:50 amUPDATE x2: If my math is correct, the percentage for the eighth generation (the most likely according to the report) would be .39% — about double the average for the average American of European descent, and still a minuscule amount.
Patterico (115b1f) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:50 amLooks like my kinda place, happyfeet.
mg (9e54f8) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:51 amFrom Daily Beast Twitter feed, 7 minutes ago:
I don’t watch Fox and Friends, but gotta say, they’re absolutely right. If anything, he will hammer Warrenr with that nickname more fiercely than ever now.
Dana (023079) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:53 amLink.
Dana (023079) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:53 amhad lots of smoked fish on my wisconsin trip – my favorite was a smoked fish pizza i found that just about made me cry
this one in chicago will be my first smoked shrimp that i can think of though – super-curious about that
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:55 amMore than a 1,000 years ago, by that standard is be middle eastern with the andalucian connection assuming 20 years per generation.
narciso (d1f714) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:00 amIs Rachel Dolezal her sister?
mg (9e54f8) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:03 amBack in July, during a deranged rant to his cultists, Spanky said he would pay $1M to a charity if Warren could prove Native American heritage.
Today he denied saying it, and responded “Who cares?”
Dave (9664fc) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:03 amwarren probably agrees with Harvard researchers re the one drop rule.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:03 am“Beats the sugary International Delight stuff I used to use…”
Those ID Irish Crémes are like heroin. Luckily I went Gene Hackman in FC II and cold turkey’d out of the downward spiral.
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:06 amNo new taxes. Lmao
mg (da6caf) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:09 amThing I learned recently: If you’re an American Indian but your mother and father are from different tribes, you can’t belong to both, you have to pick one. Some people pick the one from which they get more money and some the one which is more pleasant to live with but, and here’s the trick, if your parents are divorced or separated you can live with the parent from the nice tribe and be registered with the rich tribe and still get the more money.
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:17 amSeven up had a two fir one on all donuts i. Only took one.
narciso (d1f714) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:17 ammy god i love this man so much
he’s everything i hoped for he’s everything i need
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:17 amThere is no such thing as “almond milk.” Almonds don’t lactate to feed their young.
Kevin M (d6cbf1) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:21 amThe thing people forget, or may not know is that in order to be recognized as a Cherokee, one has to have ancestors on the Dawes Rolls – regardless of any DNA test results:
So it really doesn’t matter what the results of Warren’s test were. This is all political posturing so she can get this mess out of the way of her 2020 run.
Dana (023079) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:25 amif Warren could prove Native American heritage.
All she has proven is that some very distant ancestor was probably of Asian descent. “Heritage” implies a meaningful connection (something inherited) and this is not meaningful. Hitler was more Jewish than that.
Kevin M (d6cbf1) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:25 amOf course, claiming minority status on the basis of an eighth generation ancestor is absurd.
But in a charitable interpretation of the facts, Warren may not have known (indeed, prior to the DNA analysis, she obviously could not have known) how distant the ancestor was, and may have simply believed what she was told (as she claims) by her mother and grandparents.
All she (presumably) knew was that none of her grandparents was a pureblood native American.
Ironically, my grandparents told me that I had native American ancestry, too. I never pressed them for details. But being the conservative, skeptical sort, I never checked the “native American” box on any form (for most of my life I checked “prefer not to state” whenever available…).
Dave (9664fc) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:32 amAnd all some people will read is the Daily Beast headline. The Fake News Media really is the American people’s worst enemy.
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:34 amnut milks tend to be colloidal like moo cow milk Mr. M
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:34 amTechnically the almond milk I drink is described as an “almond beverage” so that should make you happier.
Wikipedia recognizes a thing called “plant milk”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_milk
As distinguished from “dairy milk” or simply “milk”:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk
But for all you know (that is, until you review the editing history) I just created both of those entries.
Patterico (115b1f) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:35 am“Heritage” implies a meaningful connection (something inherited) and this is not meaningful. Hitler was more Jewish than that.“
Queue the obligatory “Hitler learns…” video…
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:37 am“There is no such thing as “almond milk.” Almonds don’t lactate to feed their young.”
IIRC Blue Diamond Almond Milk contained about 2% almond product.
So I guess their AM is five times more almond than Warren is Native American.
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:37 amLet’s stipulate that Warren knows how to play the game in the Trump era. I mean, here is how it goes in a nutshell:
1. Warren made an outrageous claim in the past. It catches up to her.
2. Well, the other side overreaches a bit. So Warren nails the other side on the overreach. Media that matters to her broadcasts her story to the base. She doubles down, subtly changes the issue and the goalposts.
3. Other side really doesn’t give up. But they confuse the thread of the story, and all distinctions get lost. And they keep blovating.
4. Warren trumpets factoid that’s actually pretty meaningless. But favorable media picks it up as proof of her claim, and kind of retroactively applies it to everything that’s said about the matter.
5. Media in initial reporting botches the story. In Warren’s favor, natch.
6. Other side notices the issues, and complains.
What will continue is declarations that everything is now settled, even though it really isn’t. But if anyone tries to being it up again, cries of old news and fake news will drown airwaves.
Now, frankly, this feels like a way Trump would handle things, except in his case, FoxNews, rather than whole of othermainstream media would be providing the cover. And since this is a Trump tactic, Trump may be able to fight it better than most hapless politicians who still seem a little uncertain and sheepish when operating so far away from the truth.
Appalled (96665e) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:37 amYou mean the way msnbc and the post deliberately lied about trump praising Robert e Lee, instead of Ulysses grant, appalled.
Narciso (d1f714) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:44 amFox should take a Totem Poll.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:49 amMillicahontas.
JVW (42615e) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:53 amIt will be interesting to see whether Warren has anything to add to her “My parents eloped because mom was an Indian” story in light of the test results.
That is rather difficult to reconcile with any interpretation of the facts, charitable or otherwise…
Dave (9664fc) — 10/15/2018 @ 10:03 amShe may soon have a little Native American in her… calling all volunteers!
http://oi49.tinypic.com/30cvegx.jpg
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 10:05 amYes, I know this is not mathematically correct, but how about “Microhontas”?
JVW (42615e) — 10/15/2018 @ 10:41 amOT, but the old “first they came for…” sure sounds like it applies here… https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2018/10/15/w-t-f-twitter-has-permanently-banned-gaypatriot-and-heres-their-explanation-pic/
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 10:52 amMy grandparents. Who’s more Indian?
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 10:54 amPosts like Appalled’s (#1) both please and frustrate me in equal measure. They please me because they refuse to be swayed from the actual issue. They frustrate me because they then fail to understand the details of how that issue works in real-world situations. I’m not meaning to make things personal; Appalled’s is just the first post of this type I came across here, after reading about 100 like it earlier today.
Delete the word “picayune” here, and I agree completely. The issue is not “Was one of Elizabeth Warren’s ancestors an Indian?” It is “Does Elizabeth Warren have the right to call herself an Indian, and claim any resulting benefits she might get from that status?” From all available evidence, she does not — because she does not meet the requirements for citizenship in any Indian nation, she cannot claim to be an Indian.
It is a distinction that people fail to make all the time in these cases. Have a native ancestor? Why, you must be native yourself. Yet they would not fail to dismiss my claim as absurd if I claimed, based on the best theories of current biologists that the closest common ancestor for all humans was born on the African continent, that I was African-American. Trust me, it is only a greater absurdity because of the number of degrees of separation.
Really…hmm, you might want to get in touch with my tribe. They seem to be under the impression that I’m a citizen, despite my only having a blood quantum in the range you claim.
Again, the issue is “Can Elizabeth Warren properly claim to be an Indian?” And blood quantum is NOT always the determining factor in making that decision. Instead, it is the laws of the tribe or tribes from which the individual believes s/he can claim descent. There are many tribes that do not take blood quantum into account at all, and instead require that an applicant prove direct descent from a person listed as possessing some quantum of blood on a base tribal roll. The particular Cherokee tribe (there are three federally recognized Cherokee tribes) to which Warren could claim an attachment is one of these, as is mine. The issue here is that she can’t, because she has no provable tribal ancestry. Look up the work of Twila Barnes on this issue; it’s enlightening.
But whether you like it or not, there are people who have the blood quantum you’re dismissing (or less) and can legally call themselves American Indians. I know. I’m one of them. Don’t bother telling me I shouldn’t be — that’s not your decision to make, any more than it’s your decision who is or is not entitled to Japanese citizenship. And yes, that leads to many absurdities, such as the child who is one-quarter Mississippi Choctaw but can never be a tribal member because he is not a half-blood, while the descendants of someone listed as 1/8 Choctaw on the Dawes Rolls over 100 years ago will be eligible to belong to the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma until the end of time, no matter how large the number on the bottom of their fraction gets. C’est la vie.
I agree with this, actually. We’re not talking about whether Elizabeth Warren is or isn’t a Cherokee (she isn’t) or whether she should or shouldn’t be (she shouldn’t). We’re now talking about whether the results of one test that “suggest” she might have had an Indian ancestor between six and ten generations back prove that she is Indian to some degree. So, the goalposts have definitely been moved. And in the debate that inevitably follows, people like me either try to correct the misconceptions or sit back and gnash our teeth in digital silence. Because the side that’s wrong on the only issue that matters is just plain wrong, and the side that’s right insists on being wrong about why.
Demosthenes (17f107) — 10/15/2018 @ 10:56 amDemocrats have always been a big fan of the “one-drop rule.”
NJRob (1d7532) — 10/15/2018 @ 10:56 amIn other news:
http://thefederalist.com/2018/10/15/10-key-questions-khashoggi-affair-answer-buying-press-narrative/#.W8SVpmp4jm4.twitter
narciso (d1f714) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:02 amIt’s interesting to think about the results in terms of years.
Warren was born in 1949. To keep the numbers round, call it 1950. Her parents (1/2) were born just after 1910, making her a rather late fourth child.
One of her great-grandfathers (1/8), who emigrated from England, was born in 1860.
Before the 20th century, 20 years is a decent estimate of the interval between generations, and around 50 years would be the life-expectancy of a (mostly) white person who survived childhood and had descendents, although it wasn’t so uncommon for people to live to 70.
Borrowing nk’s table from above:
So in the “best” case (6 generations), Warren’s native American ancestor could have lived until around 1850, or perhaps as late as 1870 if they were long-lived.
In that case, they could have been known to the parents of Warren’s grandparents, but not to her grandparents themselves.
If they were not long-lived, then they would have only been known to the grandparents of Warren’s grandparents.
Either way, the unmixed person would have been known to people who were known to people known by Warren herself (2 degrees of separation from her grandparents).
If the ancestor was eight generations back, then another set of grandparents intervenes, and it is 3 degrees of separation from her grandparents.
Dave (9664fc) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:05 am#66 —
The problem with bumping up against experts is that you usually get shredded. The advantage is that you end up learning something.
I am aware that tribal rules govern whether you are considered a citizen of a tribe. I didn’t realize that they let things get down to the 1-2% level. I don’t believe Warren ever tried to get herself declared a member of a tribe. Isn’t there an age limit to going through that process?
The one thing that we both may not be aware of is whether government diversity standards are dependent on native american ancestry in some percentage, or membership in a tribe. Those standards should determine whether Warren might have done something actually wrong, or just was bragging back in the day.
Appalled (96665e) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:12 amAnswers to three of the other comments…that haven’t depressed or offended me:
@ Colonel Haiku, #15:
That is not actually for sure. It would depend on several factors, such as the tribe’s citizenship laws, her ancestry, and the tribe’s rules regarding monies obtained from leasing rights. For example, my tribe (the Chickasaw Nation) takes all revenues to which they are entitled and plows them directly into tribal businesses, as well as aid programs available to all citizens. So while I don’t get a check, I am eligible to receive medical and dental care at a substantially reduced rate, and I received several thousand dollars toward the down payment on my house.
@ nk, #46:
Again, not necessarily. Though most tribes do not allow dual-citizen status as far as I know, a few do. The Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma is one of the ones that do, largely because there is a substantial group of people who are eligible to belong both to them and to the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokees (separate people because of the times their ancestors arrived in Oklahoma, yet both tribal headquarters in the same town, and obviously tied together by history).
@ Dana, #50:
This applies to both the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and to the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokees. It does not apply to to the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, descended from those Cherokees who never left the Eastern seaboard. I realize this is a nitpick, because obviously Warren would claim descent from the Oklahoma tribes…but they are all Cherokee nevertheless.
Demosthenes (17f107) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:14 amNow, let’s see the mainstreams give DJT the benefits of doubt when he cites origins of illegals and the predictive outcomes for them. It’s science, doncha know.
Ed from SFV (6d42fa) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:15 amRIP Sears
…And No Bucks.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:21 am@ Appalled, #70:
An expert, I am not. But I do have three years of professional experience in this area, so call me an educated layman. What that means is that hopefully, the grain of salt with which you should take my comments is a very small one.
Depends on the tribe, again. Some tribes have members who are 1/1024 or less. Others will not admit anyone of less than one-half blood, no matter what the circumstances. Most fall between the extremes, though it is becoming more and more common (due to intermarriage) to see less and less restrictive requirements.
Not as far as I know…certainly not for the Cherokees. She could do it herself, if she had the documentation. The problem is that based on what we know, she can’t possibly have the documentation.
I actually do know something about this. The standards should be the same as the ones suggested (though not required) for marking the American Indian/Alaska Native box on the census, which (last I checked) require both some degree of proven blood and some degree of active participation in/affiliation with a federally recognized tribe. By those standards, Warren is definitely not entitled to claim the status, and so the college would be wrong in claiming it for her. There is not, however, a legal penalty for anything like “claiming an ethnic status falsely/without sufficient proof,” so I doubt anything beyond social penalties can be visited upon the original claim.
Demosthenes (1e7dbc) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:31 amOT: Spanky on his love for Little Rocket Man
Repression, gulags, starvation, assassinations, slave labor, public executions, but he writes me beautiful letters – I love this guy!
Dave (9664fc) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:37 amHere’s a chance to blow out the white privilege hoax to smithereens. Thank you, Fauxcahontas!
There is no “White”, provided there is .00000whatever percentage of whatever else. Beautiful! I hereby declare myself Opaque.
Ed from SFV (6d42fa) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:41 amAnd this topic is newsworthy because … ?
When Caesar made his observation about bread and circuses, I’d be willing to bet that the circuses he had in mind were more entertaining than this sort of twaddle.
John B Boddie (487ce8) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:53 amRent-free, 24x7x365…
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:53 amYes she’s a fraud, even more with her research:
Narciso (8b2908) — 10/15/2018 @ 12:30 pmhttps://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/10/the-khashoggi-slaying-the-anti-trump-media-and-american-foreign-policy.php
Didn’t Warren write about how her grandparents had to elope to get married because her grandmother was Cherokee?
That makes for a great story until you take benefits from the tall tale
steveg (a9dcab) — 10/15/2018 @ 12:40 pm“Didn’t Warren write about how her grandparents had to elope to get married because her grandmother was Cherokee?”
Many people on social media are pointing this out and it’s being almost universally ignored by the Libs.
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 12:47 pmDid she say how much neanderthal she is? running for president as the native american candidate from oklahoma?
lany (e00e54) — 10/15/2018 @ 12:55 pmAppalled,
From Warren’s website:
She wouldn’t have been able to anyway without documentation.
Demosthenes,
I’m glad my comments have neither offended or depressed you. With that, in my personal – and very frustrating experience – the criteria for enrollment can be in a continual state of flux depending on the enrollment numbers and the monetary allotments available. For instance, my tribe, when their casino began making serious bank, imposed a moratorium on enrollment. Relatives were denied enrollment, and others were excised from the tribal rolls – in spite of blood quantum being met *and* documentation going back to the required census. Tribal members may have been enrolled in the tribe for decades but nonetheless found themselves removed. There is no recourse for such decision making, and as I’m sure you know, there are cases that have made it to the courts but not ruled in favor of because of tribal sovereignty.
Basically, it’s a sad thing to see that political corruption and greed no know limits, no favor any specific group. All men are moved and persuaded by their want, none are exempt.
Dana (023079) — 10/15/2018 @ 12:58 pmI am part war hoop from oklahoma! So is everyone I talk to from oklahoma though I left 60 years ago it may have changed.
lany (e00e54) — 10/15/2018 @ 12:58 pmMeanwhile, News from Science: Don’t eat squirrel brains.
https://www.foxnews.com/health/man-dies-from-extremely-rare-disease-after-eating-squirrel-brains
Kevin M (d6cbf1) — 10/15/2018 @ 1:11 pm“Millicahontas.”
– JVW
Poco-hontas.
Leviticus (efada1) — 10/15/2018 @ 1:33 pmNo, ten generations ago. 2 to the tenth power is 1,024. That’s why we round out 1024 to a kilobyte. Multiply by itself and you get another thousand or a megabyte.
What this would mean is that the last full blooded Indian in her ancestry was proably born in the 1680s, and half Indian child, circa 1710. This child may have lived to and through the American Revolution, probably in Virginia. Maybe North Carolina.
I think at one point, under Virginia law, passed circa 1925 (in the heydey of the Ku Klux Klan, 2.0.) she would have been considered white, although maybe she would actually need to claim descent from Pocahontas. There were some old line families in Virginia that did.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 10/15/2018 @ 1:34 pm84… Darwin Principle… this was once known as “going squirrelly”…
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 1:57 pmWord on the street is she’s going to operate a new casino – come spend your wampum at lieawatha village.
mg (da6caf) — 10/15/2018 @ 1:58 pmSquatahontas
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 2:00 pm“how about “Microhontas”?“
So far my fave.
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 2:10 pmDave (9664fc) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:05 am
No, I think 28 years is better.
Remember, people had many children, and they all didn’t get married before or around age 20.
No, that’s wrong, too.
I think thsi genetic testing, if accurate, poiints to someone born in the 1680s, and the fact of some native American ancestry might have been known till around the 1830s, but not by all people who were alive at that date.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 10/15/2018 @ 2:12 pmSometimes The Onion can still come through:
The Onion
@TheOnion
Elizabeth Warren Disappointed After DNA Test Shows Zero Trace Of Presidential Material
https://politics.theonion.com/elizabeth-warren-disappointed-after-dna-test-shows-zero-1829766407/amp?__twitter_impression=true
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 2:13 pmNo.
His grandparents csame to the United states in 1905, when his grandfater was forced to leave Bavaria because he had earlier left for the United States and thus evaded the draft) and his father, Fred, married a woman from Scotland.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 10/15/2018 @ 2:14 pmDrove by a wooden Indian at the cigar shop and couldn’t help but think it had more Indian blood than lieawatha.
mg (da6caf) — 10/15/2018 @ 2:20 pmFake Indian Fake senator
mg (da6caf) — 10/15/2018 @ 2:21 pmThe first thing Elizabeth Warren did with her American Indiaan claim was publish a cookbook (or get included in acookbook) with her sister, in about 1984. Her contribution was mostly plagiarized with Cajun recipes.
https://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2012/05/elizabeth_warren_family_cookbo.html
Elizabeth Warren probably wasn’t hired by HArvard becase of her Indian claims, but they later touted it. Maybe it also heped her gain tenure, but i don’t know.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 10/15/2018 @ 2:22 pmhttps://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1115&context=mjrl
The 1924 Virginia law counted as white anyone who had no more than 1/16 Indian blood, and no other nonwhite ancestry..
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 10/15/2018 @ 2:26 pmHalf-BreedSquat-BreedShe never claimed to be pure Cherokee
All had high cheekbones on her family tree
Teh natives said she was white by law
But whitey never called her “Indian Squaw”
Squat-breed, that’s all she ever heard
Squat-breed, how she learned to hate the word
Squat-breed, she’s no good they warned
Learned to game teh system on the day she was born
She went to Harvard, it was plain to see
Pale-face and freckled, no minority
She made her bucks from teh foreclosure mess
Give ‘em the boot to their sad new address
Squat-breed, that’s all she ever heard
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 2:29 pmSquat-breed, how she learned to hate the word
Squat-breed, she’s no good they warned
Learned to game teh system on the day she was born
None of those, from 6th to 10th generation, gets you casino money.
Brass (04cccb) — 10/15/2018 @ 2:36 pmPicohontas
Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71) — 10/15/2018 @ 3:07 pmPaul Allen – RIP
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 3:31 pmSpeaking of Native Americans …
After many moons on the reservation, an NA family moved into town to live with the White man. The family included a 6-year-old boy, who came home crying his little eyes out following his first day at the White school.
“Why do you weep, my son?” asked his father.
“Because the White children made fun of my name all day long,” the little boy replied. “Why do we have such strange names? Why can’t my name be Billy, or Tommy, or Bobby?”
Taking the child on his lap, the father gently explained, “My son, it is an old Native American tradition to give our children a name that is relevant to the circumstances of their birth. For example, on the morning that your brother was born, a huge deer with great antlers came bounding by our teepee. That is why your brother is called Running Buck. And your sister was conceived when we lived by a beautiful mountain stream. That is why she is called Babbling Brook.”
Looking his smallest son in the eye, the father smiled, “Now, does that answer your question, Broken Rubber?”
The Great Ape of Madagascar (7654f5) — 10/15/2018 @ 3:38 pm101 – I want Cher to cover that version.
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 3:41 pmStormy gonna get a workout now!!!
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 3:45 pmActual CNN Business headline:
Why Matt Damon’s hilarious SNL skit couldn’t stop the Kavanaugh confirmation
__ _
Ben Shapiro
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 3:47 pm@benshapiro
Because under the Constitution Matt Damon was not given advise and consent power
Yoctohontas
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 3:48 pmhttps://youtu.be/rX7wtNOkuHo
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 3:49 pmCherokee Nation has spoken…
Warren wants to run for President badly, and she’s doing a good job of it…
Colonel Haiku (f5f3f1) — 10/15/2018 @ 3:55 pmIf she wins the nom and tries to out Trump, Trump at his own game it’ll be like watching Margaret Hamilton quacking at W.C. Fields in ‘My Little Chickadee.’ She ain’t no Mae West.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/15/2018 @ 4:06 pmR.I.P. Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft
Icy (b2fd11) — 10/15/2018 @ 4:11 pmWhy Matt Damon’s hilarious SNL skit couldn’t stop the Kavanaugh confirmation
I may spin up a post on that. Just too amazingly stupid to be true.
JVW (42615e) — 10/15/2018 @ 4:17 pmVery sad news about Paul Allen. He had a deep appreciation of education and history, helped change our modern world and had an eye on getting us off it. His backing of Burt Rutan winning the ‘X-Prize’ landed SpaceShipOne in the lobby of the NASM alongside the Spirit of St. Louis, The Wright Flyer, Yeager’s X-1, Glenn’s Friendshp 7 and the Apollo 11 command module, Columbia.
Ad Astra, Paul. Ad Astra.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/15/2018 @ 4:33 pmNo, he didn’t. He talked about a hypothetical future debate in which he jokingly said he would do this, throwing the kit at her in the process, and jokingly telling the room to keep the plan to themselves despite it being a televised rally.
And she proved nothing.
So this particular talking point is garbage.
Patterico (115b1f) — 10/15/2018 @ 4:45 pmThe best I have seen was on Twitter from Xrlq: Poquitohontas.
Patterico (115b1f) — 10/15/2018 @ 4:49 pmNot even $972.76 (1/1028th of a million), Patterico?
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 4:51 pmMilliwatha?
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 4:53 pmAnd it was Skanky’s turn to get spanked. Or, rather, SLAPPed.
Really, attorneys, if you’re going to argue that it is legally possible to defame a prostitute, at least do it in a jurisdiction without a SLAPP statute.
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:02 pm“I may spin up a post on that. Just too amazingly stupid to be true”
Read the article, it’s a cavalcade of stupid. They actually think a tv comedy skit should sway a US Senator’s opinion. The skit, after all, did contain “several layers of ridicule” and the “especially devastating line: “I’m not backing down. . . I don’t know the meaning of the word ‘stop.'”
Apparently Damon and SNL don’t know the meaning of presumed innocence. The article actually celebrates the fact that stuff created by SNL writers for Tina Fey is attributed to Sarah Palin. Embrace the fraud!
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/12/perspectives/brett-kavanaugh-snl-matt-damon/index.html
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:04 pmAnd the lawbook word that starts with a “p” for “a lady of negotiable affection” triggers the moderation filter? That would my 5:02 pm comment, if any moderator cares.
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:05 pmThe real scandal here is not that Warren lied about her Native American ancestry. Although that was pretty bad.
The real scandal is that one of the most prestigious law schools in the country, Harvard, considered this to be an important qualification for a law professor. Which provided the impetus for Warren’s fraud.
Here is a thought. Why don’t we evaluate a professor of law based on his or her scholarship, experience in the law and teaching ability? Let’s leave the ethnicity out of it.
Bored Lawyer (8ea02a) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:13 pmBetter to clean up a comment than to curse the moderation filter.
And it was Stormy’s turn to get spanked. Or, rather, SLAPPed.
Really, attorneys, if you’re going to argue that it is legally possible to defame a “lady of negotiable affection”, at least do it in a jurisdiction without a SLAPP statute.
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:18 pmFakuhjawea
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:30 pmMockedtezuma
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:31 pmHeard Liawatha thought it was clever…
EPWJ (3f4e11) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:37 pmThere would be a problem
Narciso (d1f714) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:40 pmhttps://babalublog.com/2018/10/15/venezuela-a-wholly-owned-subsidiary-of-cubas-castro-dictatorship/
Yeah, well, you know, that’s just like, uh, your opinion man.
🙂
Dave (9664fc) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:42 pmWell I was referring to this:
Narciso (d1f714) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:42 pmhttps://www.scribd.com/document/291583983/Rutgers-Shuchman
Fractionahwea
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:46 pmnative american or not she’s an utterly ridiculous woman
i look at her and i look away in disgust
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:46 pmIn other news:
https://pjmedia.com/trending/tennessee-dem-spokesman-caught-lying-about-bredesen-campaign-workers-caught-in-project-veritas-sting/amp/
Narciso (d1f714) — 10/15/2018 @ 5:56 pmthe seriously deluded propaganda lick-licks at The Hill are running this in pole position right now as we speak
Warren DNA test reinvigorates fight with Trump
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:02 pmTwitchy – Benny Johnson lays out ‘every time Elizabeth Warren has lied’ about her heritage….
“1. Elizabeth Warren self-identified as a “Native American” in the The Association of American Law Schools Directory of law professors in every edition printed between 1986 -1995.
2. After becoming a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, Warren demanded the University change her faculty listed ethnicity from “white” to “Native American.”“
Read em all:
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2018/10/15/benny-johnson-lays-out-every-time-elizabeth-warren-has-lied-about-her-heritage-in-epic-thread/
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:05 pm@ nk (#123): Thanks for that link. From the WaPo article I went to PACER for the Central District of California, which provided this docket sheet and this (somewhat odd) minute order containing U.S. District Judge S. James Otero’s ruling against Stephanie Clifford aka Stormy Daniels and in favor of Trump.
This is an excellent example of the way state-law anti-SLAPP statutes have just made federal-court defamation practice even crazier. Stormy is a native Texan, but filed her lawsuit against Trump in federal court in the Southern District of New York on the basis of diversity of citizenship, alleging that venue was proper there because Trump’s a New York resident. But Trump moved to transfer it to the federal court in Los Angeles, where there was already pending other litigation regarding the enforceability of Stormy’s NDA in favor of Trump. Stormy’s lawyers agreed to the transfer, but when the case got to Los Angeles, Trump’s lawyers moved to dismiss it on the basis of the Texas anti-SLAPP statute. Stormy insisted that the New York anti-SLAPP statute, if any, applied.
Judge Otero sorted this out — quite properly, in my opinion — by recognizing that the case-law governing the transfer statute required him to use the “choice of law” rules that the transferor court (here, SDNY) would apply, rather than California’s choice of law rules. And applying the New York choice of law rules (which are collectively a creature of state, not federal, law), he decided that the New York state courts would have concluded that the state with the “most significant interest” in this lawsuit between Texan Stormy and New Yorker Trump is the law of Texas.
Consistently with what I’ve seen other federal courts do with state anti-SLAPP laws, Judge Otero then treated the Texas anti-SLAPP statute as being analogous to either a motion under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 12(b)(6) to dismiss for failure to state a claim, or in the alternative a motion under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 56 for summary judgment. He next found that Trump had demonstrated “good cause” for failing to file his anti-SLAPP motion within 60 days after service (or waiver thereof), excusing Trump from strict compliance with this procedural deadline written by the Texas Legislature for Texas state courts to apply. I agree with this too, actually: Trump’s lawyers acted promptly and in compliance with the SDNY’s local rules in seeking the transfer, and they weren’t “sitting on their hands” and ignoring the deadline; in any event, determinations of “good cause” or the lack thereof in circumstances like this are discretionary rulings that are almost never disturbed on appeal, regardless of whether you’re in state or federal court or in Texas, California, or New York.
Running through the elements of the Texas anti-SLAPP statute, Judge Otero agreed with Trump’s lawyers that Stormy failed to allege the sort of statements of fact that can constitute defamation, and — relying on precedent from the Texas Supreme Court! — instead that Stormy is complaining about a non-actionable statements of opinion protected by the First Amendment as “rhetorical hyperbole.”
Regarding the question of actual malice versus reckless disregard for the truth, Judge Otero agreed with Trump’s lawyers that Stormy had raised nothing but “conclusory allegations” of that, while using “circular reasoning” to seek pretrial discovery “to engage in a ‘fishing expedition'” hoping to find more evidence of malice/reckless disregard. “The Court will not permit Plaintiff to exploit the legal process in this way.”
Finally, he ruled that Stormy shouldn’t be given leave to amend because it would be futile: The problems with her defamation case aren’t fixable through re-pleading.
And then came the hammer:
The order ends with an invitation to Trump’s lawyers to file their proof of fees within 14 days.
Creepy Porn Lawyer Avenatti has vowed to carry on with Stormy’s efforts to void the NDA, and vows to appeal this. Indeed, as the docket sheet shows, he’s already filed a notice of appeal. But every dollar he obliges Trump to spend on lawyers to fight the appeal will likely only be added to Stormy’s tab.
And no, anticipating the question some of you surely must be asking: Creepy Porn Lawyer is not — yet, anyway — personally on the hook for those fees. There are circumstances when courts can so order, but they’re rare, and would require additional findings (essentially, of bad faith on Avenatti’s fault under Fed. R. Civ. P. 11 when he signed Stormy’s pleadings).
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:11 pmAnd if it isn’t obvious to you Trump fans:
This is Donald J. Trump hiding behind the very same limitations on defamation law that he regularly insists should be loosened up, so he can sue others for defamation more often.
Not that you’ll hold that inconsistency against him. “He fights!”
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:14 pmOkay, I’ve got a long comment in moderation. Once again no idea why.
This tells me the moderation filter isn’t a good solution. It doesn’t stop the constant filth from the commenters our host is trying to restrain, since, as he acknowledges, they constantly come up with new filth to work around it; but it does frustrate and annoy other commenters who are caught up in it seemingly at random.
Ban commenters, not words.
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:17 pmOT… Communist Perty backs bigger flake than Flake!
https://www.theepochtimes.com/communist-party-backs-sinema-in-race-for-flakes-us-senate-seat_2675835.html
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:18 pmIs there really any evidence she lied (i.e. knew she had negligible native American ancestry), as opposed being too credulous of what her mother and grandmother told her?
This seems to me the only important question here. If Warren was told she had Indian ancestry, and she volunteered that information to someone at Harvard who wanted to check off a diversity box, is she really guilty of anything other than being insufficiently skeptical and independently confirming it?
(Yes, she is guilty of being a foolish left-wing, redistributionist apparatchik who is wrong on every policy question of importance, but that’s a separate issue…)
Dave (9664fc) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:18 pmThey’re also backing Beto O’Rourke!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:19 pmFinding myself in moderation, for reasons I can’t possibly know or have predicted, seriously dis-inclines me to to spend time doing research, gathering source materials and links, and sharing them here in the future.
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:20 pmStephen Miller
@redsteeze
In one week gets Kavanaugh on SCOTUS, torches NBC over the civil war, gets legal fees from Avenatti suit & Warren a 2020 frontrunner sets herself on fire. When that goofy bastard’s fortunes change, they *really change.
__ _
Stephen Miller
@redsteeze
Which of course means tomorrow Mueller probably releases evidence of payments to kremlin & Wikileaks
__ _
Full semi-automatic
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:26 pm@Mr_Bramse
Replying to
@redsteeze
Two days later NY Times issues a correction that the payments leaked were actually to a Outback Steakhouse in Florida but the cashier spoke with a Russian accent. The retraction gets 20 RT’s and 100 likes.
I read the opinion/dismissal and look forward to seeing Beldar’s reaction.
It’s too bad the filter doesn’t have a “trusted poster” list for people who can be counted on not to post abusive stuff.
I was surprised to read in the opinion that that Supreme Court has held that a published statement that is “pointed, exaggerated, and heavily laden with emotional rhetoric and moral outrage” cannot, under any circumstances, constitute defamation.
That pretty much gives 99% of everything presently being written on the internet a pass…
Dave (9664fc) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:27 pmOkay.
So we are having a fun discussion about the DNA and Warren and her abuse of a program designed to help those who have faced discrimination in the past.
Maybe it’s time for a rational discussion or conversation on the future of these programs and if they are helpful or harmful to society and the people they were designed to help.
A couple of additional data points about DNA and minority programs.
Man sued WA state about being a diversity company and not getting a contract.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/lynnwood-man-tried-to-use-a-home-dna-test-to-qualify-as-a-minority-business-owner-he-was-denied-now-hes-suing/
Millennials learn to game the grievance and minority system
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/evefairbanks/we-are-all-julia-salazar-i-wish-we-werent
So can there be space for the discussion that these programs aren’t helping? Can we have someone with 2nd and 3rd order effects if folks design to tighten up the laws?
Charles B (2133c9) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:29 pmYou are right, Beldar. Maybe a “Trusted Commenter” is the way to go. But it all comes down to nasty people making work for Patterico.
Simon Jester (a6712e) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:44 pmnut milks tend to be colloidal like moo cow milk Mr. M
Lots of things are colloidal with out resembling milk. Here, I have a bottle marked “colloid”; will you drink it?
Kevin M (d6cbf1) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:47 pmBeldar and Simon,
I maybe misremembering but I thought the filter was also put in to stop spammers…
But I’ve been wrong before…
EPWJ (0d1073) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:49 pmBeldar,
Many words were added to the filter by a helper to take care of the happyfeet problem. One was “porn” (which is actually a fairly common filter word). Your “creepy porn lawyer” phrase triggered that. But, as I have done 2-3 times before in recent weeks, I just have gone through and tried to excise words in common enough parlance to catch legit comments.
Patterico (115b1f) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:56 pmThe decision by Judge Otero is a good result for free speech.
Patterico (115b1f) — 10/15/2018 @ 6:57 pmAdemas De todo lo otro (after everything else)
https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/10/did-kyrsten-sinema-falsely-claim-to-be-latina-2012-controversy-resurfaces/
narciso (d1f714) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:04 pmIs there really any evidence she lied (i.e. knew she had negligible native American ancestry), as opposed being too credulous of what her mother and grandmother told her? ?”
__ _
It’s amazing how fast the reaction to this story went from:
1) Warren’s DNA proves she’s an Indian! Pay up, Drumpf!!
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:06 pmTo
2) Its what percent??? Um umm well she wasn’t lying, she’s part Native American!
To
3) why is everyone digging up every ridiculous thing she said/did regarding her supposed ancestry? All that matters is the test showed….what do you mean South American/Asian ancestry?
To
4) What difference does it all really make?
To
5) Her mother and grandmother were the liars! Hey, blame them!
@ Patterico (#147, or whatever it turns out to be when comments are released from moderation): Thank you for the explanation, and the release of the comment. That’ll have to do, I suppose, until the next time, when I will likely be annoyed all over again.
Re your observation (#148) that “[t]he decision by Judge Otero is a good result for free speech,” I agree completely, in the big picture.
I’m mainly fascinated by the very complicated interaction of fairly exotic legal doctrines, constituencies, and players in these fights. This particular fact pattern would be a terrific basis for a long essay question — combining elements of federalism (laboratory of democracy), federal constitutional law, state tort law, choice of law rules, rules for transferred cases, substantive versus procedural rules/laws, state common law versus federal common law versus state statutory schemes, extraterritorial application of state laws, and on and on and on — on a really nasty bar exam. (Except it’s too hard, and too small a percentage of newly minted lawyers could track through this stuff.) I remain mildly astonished that the federal courts so far seem to be so docile in letting state legislatures, through these anti-SLAPP statutes, re-jigger federal procedural rules, including things like deadlines, awards of attorneys’ fees, automatic discovery stays, and so forth.
It’s also interesting to me, as a Texas lawyer, to read citations to the Texas Civil Practice & Remedies Code and the Texas Supreme Court’s opinions in a decision from a federal district judge in the Central District of California. Stormy’s Texas citizenship spares her from state income taxes in other domiciles she might claim, but it may well have just cost her this early dismissal (albeit of a lawsuit that was pretty sketchy to begin with).
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:35 pmAll praise to America the Intersectional, the land of Hispanic white supremacists, white Indians, Jewish Nazis, and of course, extremely rich advocates for the poor.
Pencil-Necked Pundit (88e12b) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:37 pmThat’s a mischaracterization of what I wrote. I never suggested her mother and grandmother were liars.
Dave (83748d) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:40 pm136:
“Not that you’ll hold that inconsistency against him. “He fights!””
Yes indeed, under whatever rules are on the board at the time. A good fact to remember going forward for all you Third Edition is BEST Edition and no one can tell me different! DMs.
Benefiting from a bad law because it is, in fact, the law isn’t exactly evidence of hypocrisy, unless you’d want to IMPEACH KAVANAUGH NOW because the Senate isn’t following the arguably saner pre-Harry Reid rules.
And while we’re talking about games, the absolute state of the players on the anti-Trump (and Kavanaugh) side are making Trump’s argument about libel laws for him (and may end up literally doing that after this loss.)
Would recommend simply citing the precedent of The Incredible Hulk vs. Gawker for the proper limits.
Pencil-Necked Pundit (cb5d31) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:46 pmIf we push this Cherokee citizenship thing too hard, the Cherokees may make an exception for Warren.
Kevin M (d6cbf1) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:52 pmHow white is Fauxcahontas?
https://static.pjmedia.com/instapundit/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/warrenivory-600×530.jpg
harkin (adce92) — 10/15/2018 @ 7:57 pmOr, maybe the Cherokee are upset
https://hotair.com/archives/2018/10/15/inappropriate-wrong-cherokee-nation-official-slams-warren-dna-claims/
Kevin M (d6cbf1) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:04 pmSo synema might as well be warrens niece.
Narciso (d1f714) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:12 pmSo was Creepy P*rn Lawyer caught with his pinstriped pants down by the jurisdictional game of three-card monte, or was he just a fool to bring the suit in the first place?
At the most cynical level, you could look at the suit as a great success for him regardless, as it bought him countless hours of prime press exposure as the nemesis of Creepy P*rn President … and using Ms. Daniels’ money!
Dave (9664fc) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:29 pmThank you, Beldar. I misjudged Avenatti. He did file the lawsuit in New York, a state with no anti-SLAPP statute worth the appellation. Basically, it only protects people who are sued by people like Trump for objecting to their (people like Trump) applications for government permits. I wonder if Roy Cohn might not have been the impetus for it. 😉
nk (dbc370) — 10/15/2018 @ 8:47 pm“At the most cynical level, you could look at the suit as a great success for him regardless, as it bought him countless hours of prime press exposure as the nemesis of Creepy P*rn President … and using Ms. Daniels’ money!”
Too bad Avenatti didn’t have anything else to go with the swagger, like popular political positions.
I do appreciate how he set Trump up to be one of the first people in living memory to ever get a refund from a hooker, though.
Pencil-Necked Pundit (4c2f6c) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:04 pmI was about to parachute in to make this very point. But it’s been made, so I don’t need to. I’m surprised and disappointed that so obvious a point seems to have been noticed by so few people.
milhouse (a81aba) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:18 pmIt’s also important to bear in mind that she only invented her false claim in 1986 and dropped it in 1995. So she did not use it to get into college, or to start her career. She may have used it to get hired by Penn; I’m not aware of evidence either way. Both she and Harvard deny that the committee that poached her from Penn were even aware of it; I don’t find this very plausible, but it’s impossible to prove they’re lying.
If they’re telling the truth, then at some point after she was hired, someone in Harvard’s PR department must have seen her listing in the “minority academics” directory and asked, “Say, what sort of minority are you?”, and she must have told them it was Native American.
Shortly thereafter she got herself delisted from the directory so she wouldn’t have to deal with any more such awkward questions.
milhouse (a81aba) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:29 pm@ Dave, who asked (#159):
These aren’t mutually exclusive alternatives.
If his goal was to win a money judgment in client’s favor, or a large settlement in lieu thereof, then he was a fool in the first place. Wherever Avenatti sued on Stormy’s behalf — in whatever state, and whether in state or federal court — Trump was going to have substantial defenses available to him under the First Amendment as interpreted by NYT v. Sullivan. When the plaintiff is a public figure (Freudian impulse to type “pubic figure” studiously avoided), her defamation claims are necessarily limited by those federal-law protections that override contrary state-law based defamation tort claims. The “actual malice/reckless disregard for the truth” standard is one such, but another is the line of precedent correctly cited by this judge which has given specific protection to such things as parodies or, as here, rhetorical exaggerations delivered from an overtly political podium by a politician. So I don’t think any amount of forum shopping could have ever given a rational lawyer for Stormy an expectation of success, if we’re talking money judgments or settlements collected and paid.
If that wasn’t his, or his client’s, main purpose, then one has to assess their foolishness in light of the real purpose(s). Your point about publicity is well taken, and many people have noted the perverse, compelling, and repellant symbiotic relationship between Avenatti and Trump, each of whom can be relied upon to serve the other’s purposes in providing fresh grist for the ever voracious, ever-resetting news cycles.
As to whether he was caught with his pants down: I didn’t read the briefing, so I don’t know whether Avenatti made a serious attempt to identify and argue facts that could have supported a contrary conclusion, e.g., that New York State has the most significant relationship over this particular variety of defamation case because … — and there I run out of ideas. When your client is selling what she sells in interstate, indeed, international commerce, she’s in many senses a citizen of the world. Maybe he could have tried to argue that since his own client’s connections to Texas are so tenuous and she’s so often on the road, the interest New York State has in discouraging its own citizens from becoming tortfeasors (defamers/libelers/slanderers) outweighs whatever interest Texas might have in seeing its citizens’ civil damage claims redressed. But if Avenatti did make some argument like that in his briefing, I would have expected a careful judge to have noted it and explained why he wasn’t persuaded by it.
So except for the “all publicity is good publicity” angle, I think his pants were down, and he was a fool in the first place. I wonder if he has the cajones to eat the fees out of his own wallet in order to hang onto this client? I’m guessing $80k on the low end, $250k on the high end, and that the judge will award whatever’s asked for so long as it’s not obviously and deliberately inflated.
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:33 pm@ nk: At the very top of every state’s choice of law checklist (or so I was taught), every state court will apply its own state’s laws unless and until someone asks the court to apply another state’s law. So it’s entirely possible that Avenatti picked New York in part, or mostly, in an attempt to avoid anti-SLAPP laws in states like Texas or California, where venue also could plausibly have been maintained. And if Trump’s lawyers hadn’t pointed out that Stormy came to New York in effect dragging the Texas anti-SLAPP behind her, then presumably the SDNY, applying New York State’s choice of law rules, would have applied New York, and its pitiful anti-SLAPP statute, instead of the Texas law.
And the provisions of the Texas law actually helped him out there, because Trump’s lawyers did slightly snooze the 60-day deadline that’s part of the Texas statute’s procedural scheme. (Which I’m surprised to see applied at all by federal courts, but that’s the clear nationwide trend.) So arguably, but for the discretionary “good cause” ruling cutting Trump’s lawyers a little slack, which I think most fair judges would have agreed to do under the same or similar circumstances, filing in SDNY might have ended up working for him.
I believe that would have fallen into the “even a blind pig occasionally finds an acorn” category, though, rather than a calculated example of laying behind the log on Avenatti’s part.
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/15/2018 @ 9:46 pmI’m reminded that the incredibly stupid NDA drawn up for Trump’s benefit by Michael Cohen, as ultimately signed by Stormy, included not a choice of law specification — which arguably could have been cited as a reason to not apply the Texas anti-SLAPP law — but instead a choice of law option, purporting to give “DD” the right to choose among California’s, Arizona’s, or Nevada’s substantive law for purposes of interpreting and enforcing the NDA. I don’t think that’s remotely enforceable, and indeed, I think it’s void as a violation of public policy, because it’s not the resolution, in advance of a potential dispute, of a legitimate and arguable point of potential future dispute, by an attempt to give one side of the contract the power to selectively game the judicial system long after the contract’s making and, indeed, even after its breach.
Another blind pig and acorn: Cohen’s incompetence may have deprived Avenatti of an argument he might have used against Trump. What a bunch of maroons!
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/15/2018 @ 10:01 pm* … future dispute, [but rather] an attempt to give one side of the contract.
^^^ What I ought to have written in #166. Sorry.
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/15/2018 @ 10:04 pmJudge Gorsuch didn’t have to open the door very long. Hope Judge Kavanaugh has a less amount of time.
mg (9e54f8) — 10/15/2018 @ 10:17 pmI have a 1975 Jeep Cherokee…
mg (9e54f8) — 10/15/2018 @ 10:29 pm“Another blind pig and acorn: Cohen’s incompetence may have deprived Avenatti of an argument he might have used against Trump. What a bunch of maroons!”
I believe the term you’re looking for is 4D EXTREME TACTICAL TRUFFLE-HUNTING
Pencil-Necked Pundit (b97d8a) — 10/15/2018 @ 10:30 pmThis 2012 article, cited by Warren’s Wikipedia bio, has some interesting background about Warren’s progenitors and what is known about them.
There appears to be some consistency between the stories she, her brothers, and some fairly distant relatives were told about their ancestry.
Of course anyone in a position to know what her relatives told each other about their ancestry is, ipso facto, one of her relatives, and thus you could assert they are all lying to back her up.
Dave (9664fc) — 10/15/2018 @ 11:55 pmThis is an incredibly stupid argument to have. And I mean on Warren’s part. She made specific claims about being part Cherokee and Delaware. Which is impossible to prove as there is no reference data in any known DNA database for those two tribes. I’m not aware of any North American Indian DNA databases but certainly not enough to have a valid reference population. Which is why Prof. Bustamante had to use Mexican, Colombian, and Peruvian DNA as a reference population. Which one might think might prove she has Aztec or Incan ancestry. But then she runs into two problems. First no one can prove that any of those populations are genetically identical or even similar to tribes in what is now the United States and Canada.
Tribes like the Cherokee refuse to participate in DNA testing because the reject the Bering land bridge/migration theory. They have their own creation myths which say they didn’t come from somewhere else but were created here. Their leaders tell their tribe members not to cooperate with geneticists for fear that they will be “exploited.” In other words, their DNA may be used to disprove their creation myths.
Without a valid North American Indian reference population Warren’s “family lore” about her Cherokee and Delaware ancestry falls flat.
Second, with few exceptions DNA sequences are shared by all human populations world wide but just at different rates. I can’t read the report because the Boston Globe says I’ve run out of free articles. If someone can access the actual report, see if the geneticist discusses D9S919 values. That’s one of the few exception and would prove Native American ancestry. But the Prof. doesn’t use that language; he says the results “suggest” or “strongly support” but never says “prove.” Which “suggests” to me he didn’t discover that marker. Which “strongly supports” my conclusion that he simply did a “next best fit analysis” and the genetic sequences he discusses are found more frequently in Native American populations than other populations. Which is essentially meaningless, particularly if the Bering land bridge/migration theory is correct (and the evidence “strongly supports” the theory), Given the fact that people moved around, invaded other countries, interbred whether willingly or not, those DNA sequences he’s using for ethnicity matching could have arrived in Europe from the same Asian population that brought them to the Americas. So the sequences he identifies as “Native American” could very well be “Germanic.” Just because those sequences occur at lower frequencies in other populations doesn’t mean Warren didn’t inherit them for an ancestor from another population.
The bottom line is that these test results are eminently mock worthy and don’t prove a damn thing. Genetic testing to determine ethnicity is the least reliable use of the technology. It’s great for determining paternity as a child inherits exactly half of their DNA from each parent. You can use it to solve crimes if you can get a close match between DNA from the crime scene and DNA from a near relative even if you don’t have a match between the crime scene DNA and the suspect. But using DNA to determine ethnicity is essentially BS; it’s in its infancy. You don’t get answers, unless you find the extremely rare but distinctive markers that do exist (the Duffy Null Allele is another of these few markers and is exclusive to sub-Saharan Africans), you get estimates. Best case is that might have had a single non-admixtured Indian ancestor between the sixth and tenth generation. Might, maybe, but then she probably does not. This is patently ridiculous. Results below five percent are as a general rule considered questionable. Below two percent the results are as a general rule considered “noise.” None of the results of Warren’s test rise above the noise category. At the sixth generation, which is the closest relative Bustamante can place to Warren she’d have 1.56% American Indian blood. If you took a commercially available DNA test they’d tell you about when they provided you with the results but it doesn’t prove anything. From the seventh to tenth generation the percentage falls below the one percent threshold and the commercial genealogical testers wouldn’t even include them in the results.
Elizabeth Warren is still a fraud, but now she’s even more of a fraud than she was before. In fact, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that she did take a commercial DNA test which found nothing, so then commissioned this geneticist to find something. Which isn’t to say he’s a fraud, just that with any white person there are going to be DNA sequences which will be a “next best fit” with American Indian DNA whether they have an American Indian ancestor or not.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 10/17/2018 @ 2:11 pmTrevor Noah mockery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8Y6JhOVYqw
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 10/17/2018 @ 2:34 pmSteve57 (0b1dac) — 10/17/2018 @ 2:11 pm
And if he’d have found nothing, she’d have released nothing.
She just wated a headline and counted on people (or the media) not getting into the weeds, on the grounds thatis inside baseball.
But this is justt oo interesting.
She also wanted to do this before the 2018 election. Maybe so her Senate re-election campaign could pay for it (and the video production and everything else) or maybe it’s that she’d have some kind of excuse for doing this what she would say is unnecessary test.
Which isn’t to say he’s a fraud, just that with any white person there are going to be DNA sequences which will be a “next best fit” with American Indian DNA whether they have an American Indian ancestor or not.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 10/17/2018 @ 2:39 pmHi, everybody. I just wanted to wish everyone a Happy International Pronouns Day!
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2018/10/17/aclu-and-other-groups-celebrate-first-ever-international-pronouns-day-to-empower-nonbinary-people/
International Pronoun Day is brought to you by people who insist that the DNA evidence that Lizzy Warren provided proves she’s has American Indian ancestry even though it falls well within the range of meaningless “noise” but reject the most basic “settled science” in genetics that that XX chromosomes means you’re a woman and XY chromosomes means you’re a man (with a tiny minority of people with genetic defects making them intersex) as meaningless.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 10/17/2018 @ 8:04 pm