Patterico's Pontifications

3/14/2018

Theresa May Hits Russia for Attempted Murder on British Soil — All Eyes Now on Trump

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:00 am



Looks like Theresa May is done “working through the details” (to quote Sarah Sanders) of who was responsible for an attempted assassination on U.S. soil. The culprit? One Vladimir Putin — and there are going to be (minor) consequences:

British Prime Minister Theresa May announced punitive measures against Russia on Wednesday over the chemical weapon attack on Russian former double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter in the English city of Salisbury. Speaking on the floor of the British Parliament, May said Russia had provided “no credible explanation” as to how the powerful Novichok chemical nerve agent came to be used in Britain, saying, “instead they have treated the use of a military grade chemical agent in Europe with sarcasm, contempt.”

She said it was part of a “well established pattern” of Russian actions and that she and her cabinet had “agreed immediate actions to dismantle Russian espionage operations in the U.K.” — Britain was formally expelling 23 Russian diplomats who were identified as “undeclared” intelligence agents.

. . . .

May said Britain would not cut all diplomatic contact with Russia, but it would curtail “all planned high level bilateral contacts,” including revoking an invite to Russia’s top diplomat Sergey Lavrov. In addition, she said no members of the royal family or the cabinet would attend the soccer World Cup this summer in Russia.

Although Donald Trump did not go as far as Rex Tillerson in recent days to put the blame squarely on the Russian government, he did express support to May in a phone call. Now that May has pointed the finger directly at Putin’s Russia, the world looks to Trump to see how he will respond.

Generic “we stand with our British allies” statements are all well and good and to be expected. And nobody is expecting us to expel diplomats. The real question is: will Trump actually stand up in public and unequivocally say Putin was responsible for this attack?

I’m going to go out on a small limb and say no. Based on his past attitude towards Putin, we won’t be seeing Trump issuing a clear statement of blame. At best, we’ll get the usual Delphic word-salad pronouncement that will be open to interpretation.

And what Trump says is really all that matters, as Garry Kasparov explains:

I predict that, by the end of the day, many of those who called for Trump to stand shoulder to shoulder with May will explain that this is really England’s problem, and that of course Trump shouldn’t directly accuse Putin. He doesn’t have the evidence that England has! It’s bad for diplomacy! Yada yada. I can already hear it.

I’d love to be proved wrong. I don’t think I will be.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

195 Responses to “Theresa May Hits Russia for Attempted Murder on British Soil — All Eyes Now on Trump”

  1. Oh, well, you know. Lots of countries do horrible things. Who can say? Maybe a 400 guy in his mother’s basement cooked up exotic nerve gas and poisoned those people.

    Coasta (51fdf0)

  2. Sounds like Trump is following your advice not to draw conclusions in the absence of hard evidence.

    random viking (7de8a8)

  3. This is really England’s problem, and of course Trump shouldn’t directly accuse Putin.

    He doesn’t have the evidence that England has!

    It’s bad for diplomacy!

    Dave (ac1051)

  4. #ReleaseTheDocumentation

    random viking (7de8a8)

  5. Oh, well, you know. Lots of countries do horrible things.

    You forgot:

    “There are a lot of killers. You think our country’s so innocent?”

    Dave (ac1051)

  6. Looks like Theresa May is done “working through the details” (to quote Sarah Sanders) of who was responsible for an attempted assassination on U.S. soil.

    I’d love to be proved wrong. I don’t think I will be.

    UK soil, baby.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  7. You’re welcome. Glad to help.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  8. Wills and Harry not attending the World Cup? I am sure Putin is shaking in his boots at that one.

    Kishnevi (1b8c69)

  9. The Left goes with comediansf for strategy/policy and the Right goes with chess players?

    Colonel Haiku (f0e797)

  10. Looks like they need their own tea party, we now rule Great Britain?

    God Save teh Queen!

    Colonel Haiku (f0e797)

  11. Completely OT, and nothing actually relevant to Trump, but too entertaining not to sure, even if the source is SPLC
    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/03/13/twp-chief-matthew-heimbach-arrested-battery-after-affair-top-spokesmans-wife

    The kicker is for some reason buried well down in the story.

    Kishnevi (1b8c69)

  12. They had one, the independence party, they did as much to put it out of business, while squandering the opportunity of brexit.

    narciso (d1f714)

  13. http://freebeacon.com/national-security/tillerson-fired-rogue-bid-save-iran-nuke-deal/

    Well at least we know why Tillerson was fired and it was as expected, not the conspiracy theory that some wished.

    NJRob (b00189)

  14. So theresa may has proven useless to protect the lives of 300 or so of her countrymen what good has she been?

    narciso (d1f714)

  15. lol and you’re worried about President Trump getting us into a silly unnecessary war

    looks like this inane british frump’s off to the bloody races

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  16. Will the Argentines get their own version of the Zimmerman telegraph?

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  17. Of course waiting in the wing is their version of Bernie sanders, PLO, Ira, stb eta fan boi Jeremy corbyn,

    narciso (d1f714)

  18. Its time for Recruiting Seargent/Medley, kills two birds with one stone this particular week.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  19. They can’t just announce that Putin is a dead man walking.

    SarahW (3164f0)

  20. the takeaway here seems to be that the british versions of failmerica’s sleazy cia/fbi poofterboys are just as incompetent weak and useless as our ones

    (and ounce of prevention as they say)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  21. In addition, she said no members of the royal family or the cabinet would attend the soccer World Cup this summer in Russia.

    holy effing mother of mutually assured destruction i didn’t see that at first

    this is serious

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  22. It was likely done by an ‘illegal’ lugovoy is in parliament now, still would take a change getting into the country

    narciso (d1f714)

  23. Getting serious the Salisbury plain is like attacking ft. Belvoir,
    So kicking a few diplomats who were dining on bangers and mash won’t cut it, now are they prepared for a war with a nuclear power.

    narciso (d1f714)

  24. If it comes to war between Russia and the Brits, my money will be on the latter.

    Apart from their two losses to us (no shame in that), they’re pretty much undefeated against the rest of the world.

    Since this was a chemical weapon attack on their home soil, it think they could even call in the rest of NATO for a king-sized (no pun intended) helping of whoop-ass on Vladimir. Hell, the Poles probably won’t even wait to be asked…

    Dave (ac1051)

  25. Did they say how it was administered? You can’t just spray it or throw it on someone unless you’re in full hazmat gear.

    nk (dbc370)

  26. Since it has spread into the local community, id guess around the restaurant,

    narciso (d1f714)

  27. One theory is that is was applied to a car door handle.

    Too many affected, though.

    SarahW (3164f0)

  28. Michael Wolff whose work comes highly recommended by this blog says President Trump is actually keenly sensitized to the dangers of poisonous substances:

    In a preview of his tell-all book, Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House, journalist Michael Wolff claims that Trump’s “longtime fear of being poisoned” has affected his dining choices.

    It’s “one reason why he liked to eat at McDonald’s—nobody knew he was coming and the food was safely premade,” Wolff wrote in New York Magazine on Wednesday.

    Theresa May Clampett on the other hand (as far as we know) eschews McDonald’s and therefore, we can assume, she’s inherently comfortable with assuming a much higher level of risk.

    Could it be that her relatively nonchalant attitude toward poisoning came back to bite her in this instance?

    Vigilance is just so key.

    Our president, President Donald Trump, understands this on a very deep level.

    Theresa unfortunately is having to learn the hard way. 🙁

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  29. He must go to either very rural or very inner city McDonalds.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  30. that’s classified

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  31. Dave, you’re starting to sound like Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove. I wish you would get as fired up about moslems and illegals murdering Americans as you do about Russians killing Limeys.

    Rev.Hoagie (1b0402)

  32. One theory is that is was applied to a car door handle.

    I’d call Harvey Keitel

    he’ll know what to do

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  33. Toe-to-toe nuke-u-lar combat with the Russkies!

    Dave (ac1051)

  34. you and i in a little toy shop buy a bag o’ balloons with the money we got

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  35. Same Brits that banned Laura Southern and other outspoken individuals, but let radical imams in that preach death to the West?

    NJRob (b00189)

  36. When do the Russian people take out Putin like he did Sergio? Man up mofos.

    mg (9e54f8)

  37. The English subjects love them some sharia law.

    mg (9e54f8)

  38. Based on his past attitude towards Putin, we won’t be seeing Trump issuing a clear statement of blame. At best, we’ll get the usual Delphic word-salad pronouncement that will be open to interpretation.

    This is what President Trump said yesterday:

    “It sounds to me like it would be Russia, based on all the evidence they have,” Trump told reporters outside the White House. “It sounds to me like they believe it was Russia and I would certainly take that finding as fact.”

    Trump added: “As soon as we get the facts straight, if we agree with them, we will condemn Russia or whoever it may be.”

    Trump also said he would speak to UK Prime Minister Theresa May about the incident.

    somebody please to get Mr. Kasparov a fresh pair of panties

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  39. C’mon, Hoagie!!! If it is even tangentially relating to teh Trump, ConDave sees reds

    Colonel Haiku (f0e797)

  40. ‘…this is really England’s problem…’

    It really sort of is…

    ‘Russia′s big businesses and tycoons developed strong ties with the UK′s financial institutions in the 1990s, after the dissolution of the USSR in 1991. The countries share a history of intense espionage activities against each other, with the Soviet Union succeeding in penetration of top echelons of British intelligence and security establishment in the 1930s–1950s. Conversely, British Intelligence asset Oleg Penkovsky run by London and British agent Oleg Gordievsky allegedly contributed to averting the threat of Thermonuclear War during the Cuban Missile Crisis . Since the 19th century, England has been a popular destination for Russian political exiles, refugees, and wealthy fugitives from the Russian speaking world.’ – wikipedia

    They share a lot of history in this arena; the Cambridge Five; the Profumo matter, etc., This was simply sloppy, ‘soviet-styled’ spycraft. May had to respond w/a public ‘tit-for-tat’ expulsion game as they work the problem back into the shadows.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  41. Countess times, DJT has insisted that bad actors are “good guys” despite overwhelming evidence they are not. It’s the highbrow way Never publicly speak ill of another in your class unless it is unavoidable, or there is some direct benefit to doing so.

    This is the man, for God’s sake, who put Omarosa in the West Wing. To expect standard accountability from him is to engage in pipe dreams.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  42. This is the man, for God’s sake, who put Omarosa in the West Wing.

    Greatest. Manager. Of. All. Time.

    Dave (ac1051)

  43. So was Rex canned over Putin Poison or the Iran nuke deal?

    harkin (df3a15)

  44. Spanky’s lips are brown from licking Putin’s boots. It’s sickening.

    Tillman (a95660)

  45. @44. Management by remote control; tomorrow our Captain hires an ex-Wall-Streeter-turned- television-talker who once nursed a $10,000/month cocaine habit as America’s new Chief Economic Advisor. But hey, he does good on the TeeVee!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  46. @45. Calling the boss a ‘f–king moron’ sealed his fate long ago.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  47. Most likely the latter also as signal to kim dauphin

    narciso (d1f714)

  48. disgraced FBI slutboy Andy McCabe could lose his pension?

    looks like it depends on what deputy attorney general Jeff Sessions decides

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  49. Stark raving mad:
    http.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/03/larry-tribe-a-sad-case.php

    narciso (d1f714)

  50. Since this was a chemical weapon attack on their home soil, it think they could even call in the rest of NATO for a king-sized (no pun intended) helping of whoop-ass on Vladimir. </em"

    Indeed, it could be this is a neocon plot to draw us into a war with Russia. Has this use of a “nerve agent only Russia could have used” even been confirmed by credible outside analysis?

    I’m not saying that is what this is, it’s just an interesting question I’ve heard being asked.

    the Bas (3bcea0)

  51. says the guy with a space in his name

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  52. tomorrow our Captain hires an ex-Wall-Streeter-turned- television-talker

    this is way way better than the corpulent dirty sacky democrat Mr. Kudlow will replace

    as you can see President Trump’s tirelessly refining his government for to optimize value and performance!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  53. The Traditional Worker’s Party doesn’t sound right wing to me Mr Kishnevi but their organizational chart was a little top heavy.

    Pinandpuller (2600a1)

  54. Kudlow? Is that name of German derivation, Miss Daisy?

    Pinandpuller (2600a1)

  55. Spanky’s lips are brown from licking Putin’s boots. It’s sickening.

    It’s almost as if Putin is holding some extremely salacious and damaging material over President Dennison’s head.

    But I can’t imagine what it could be.

    Dave (445e97)

  56. When can their glory fade?

    O the wild charge they made.

    Pinandpuller (2600a1)

  57. I predict that, by the end of the day, many of those who called for Trump to stand shoulder to shoulder with May

    That’s what he was doing, and in fact he – or somebody else – was irritated with Tillerson – for being too soft on Russia, according to the New York Times’ inside sources at the Trump White House.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/us/politics/trump-tillerson-pompeo.html

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  58. And once on a time, kidlowwa in the sds at Syracuse, but he got better,

    Yes he had a powder issue, which prompted him to become cathokic

    narciso (d1f714)

  59. I imagine Trump’s response will be something like this:

    “Maybe something was Put-in Sergei’s drink. Who knows!? At least Russia knows how to deal with traitors, until the United States! #ChelseaManning”

    Dejectedhead (81690d)

  60. 61 Wrong link

    The correct New York Times article, which appeared today, is this:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/us/politics/trump-tillerson-pompeo-america-first.html

    Paragraphs 31 and 32 of 34 read: (emphasis mine)

    At times, White House officials said, Mr. Tillerson’s behavior verged on insubordination. The administration, for example, was extremely cautious in responding to reports that Russia was behind the deadly nerve-gas attack in Britain. But when Mr. Tillerson was asked about it in Africa, he said, “It appears that it clearly came from Russia.”

    His statement infuriated the White House, which had crafted its talking points with lawyers at the State Department to keep the United States in lock step with Prime Minister Theresa May of Britain. Instead, an official said, Mr. Tillerson made the White House look like it was soft on Mr. Putin, which he insisted was not the intention.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  61. The article also seems to indicate that the name of Mike Pompeo was brought up by Saudi Arabia and/or the United Arab Emirates, who recommended him:

    Mr. Tillerson also broke with Mr. Trump in the bitter dispute between Saudi Arabia and Qatar — a decision that cost him with Persian Gulf leaders. The leaders, several of whom are visiting Washington in coming weeks, lobbied the White House to replace Mr. Tillerson with Mr. Pompeo.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  62. But the exact timing came because of the upcoming summit meeting with North Korea:

    At the White House, officials faced the familiar challenge of presenting a methodical rationale for Mr. Trump’s impulsive moves. One aide said he decided to replace Mr. Tillerson now to have a new team in place before the talks with Mr. Kim, which are scheduled to happen by May. But Mr. Tillerson was the most persistent advocate of opening talks with North Korea.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  63. Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 3/14/2018 @ 12:23 pm

    But May was saying it clearly came from Russia.

    Dave (445e97)

  64. @55. Coke and Diet Coke men, Mr. Feet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  65. The leaders, several of whom are visiting Washington in coming weeks, lobbied the White House to replace Mr. Tillerson with Mr. Pompeo.

    Bowing to the Saudi King is one thing, but we’re actually letting Arab sheikhs pick our cabinet now?

    This all sounds like completely implausible “alternative facts” created to ratf*ck Tillerson.

    Tillerson “broke with Trump” on the Saudi/Qatar dispute because Trump farted out a tweet contradicting previously established US policy while Tillerson was overseas.

    Dave (445e97)

  66. One might argue that Qatar does hold a grudge after a certain kerfluffle that happened in 96, is that why they sheltered ksm in their sewer dept, till bob bar found it out. Qatar btw is where Abe mazen made his living before beconibg black septembers lead fundraiser

    narciso (d1f714)

  67. > two losses to us

    two? most historians consider the War of 1812 to be a tie.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  68. Theresa May’s strategy is to get so many Tommy’s killed in a war with Russian that every guy named Mohammed gets four war widow brides.

    Pinandpuller (b41a86)

  69. Yes they had though. Invading canada, would be a ‘cakewalk’

    narciso (d1f714)

  70. most historians consider the War of 1812 to be a tie.

    1) Leftist commie LIES.
    2) Tie goes to the runner.

    Dave (445e97)

  71. Geez Jeremy, get with the narrative.

    the Bas (3bcea0)

  72. So will Ms. Haley be fired next?

    United Nations (U.N.) Ambassador Nikki Haley on Wednesday accused Russia of flagrantly and aggressively using a nerve agent to poison a former Russian spy in the United Kingdom, and called on Moscow to “come clean” about its chemical weapons program.

    http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/378436-haley-blames-russia-for-poisoning-ex-spy-in-uk

    Tillman (a95660)

  73. Looks like ConDave didn’t get the news about Rex ‘s flurry of antics as he tried to save the Iran deal. Too busy getting busy with teh poultry?

    Colonel Haiku (33b771)

  74. Rats, much like the hens you favor, will get fvcked, ConDave…

    Colonel Haiku (33b771)

  75. The chicken should have grounds, for a lawsuit,

    So what is may prepared to do, without Russian oligarch cash, londonistan and other roundings like surrey, start to sink

    narciso (d1f714)

  76. Looks like ConDave didn’t get the news about Rex ‘s flurry of antics as he tried to save the Iran deal.

    InfoWars exclusive?

    Dave (445e97)

  77. And not merely Russians as this late gene Simmons impresssionist

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5378957/Surrey-50m-mansion-home-Sheikh-Walid-Juffali-sale.html

    narciso (d1f714)

  78. Who chipped into red queens foundation as well as the Atlantic council

    narciso (d1f714)

  79. So will Ms. Haley be fired next?

    Why, do you think Tillerson ordered her to say that?

    Even May didn’t make such a unequivocal statement. She said in the event it wasn’t Russia, Russia would still be culpable if they didn’t prevent anyone else from getting their hands on it. At this point, accusing Russia of doing it themselves is an unsubstantiated charge.

    The way I’m reading things anyway.

    the Bas (3bcea0)

  80. I’m also reading that Russia has asked for samples to verify the claim it is the nerve agent in question, but are being refused.

    That’s interesting.

    the Bas (3bcea0)

  81. nevertrump doesn’t need proof Mr. Bas

    they use the pedophile Mitt Romney “no proof no problem” approach

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  82. Even May didn’t make such a unequivocal statement. She said in the event it wasn’t Russia, Russia would still be culpable if they didn’t prevent anyone else from getting their hands on it.

    You are bit behind developments. That’s what she said a day or two ago, while going through the motions of allowing the Russians to give an explanation.

    What she said today, in the House of Commons, was unequivocal:

    So Mr Speaker, there is no alternative conclusion other than that the Russian State was culpable for the attempted murder of Mr Skripal and his daughter – and for threatening the lives of other British citizens in Salisbury, including Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey.

    This represents an unlawful use of force by the Russian State against the United Kingdom.

    And as I set out on Monday it has taken place against the backdrop of a well-established pattern of Russian State aggression across Europe and beyond.

    Dave (445e97)

  83. But there are many who wouldn’t have minded Britain keeping Fort Dearborn

    urbanleftbehind (ddcc04)

  84. I’m also reading that Russia has asked for samples to verify the claim it is the nerve agent in question, but are being refused.

    Always trust content from Russia Today

    Dave (445e97)

  85. Dave, no change. Note the word “culpable”.

    And my source was the Sun, see comment #75.

    the Bas (3bcea0)

  86. Niki Haley says you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Care to concede?

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  87. Dave, no change. Note the word “culpable”.

    “Culpable” is a synonym for “guilty” and “responsible”…

    You’d think they’d budget enough rubles to give these bots a minimal foundation in English vocabulary so they don’t stick out like sore thumbs. Very unimpressed by the FSB/SVB’s low standards…

    Also, what part of “This represents an unlawful use of force by the Russian State against the United Kingdom” was unclear?

    Dave (445e97)

  88. “Culpable” is a synonym for “guilty” and “responsible”…

    and whose fault is that?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  89. “Putin is a mafia boss and only cares about what another boss has to say.”
    I think he would be more concerned abt the actions taken, as opposed to words. Seriously, the uk has a gdp twice the size of russia- do you really think putin cares if some diplomats are kicked out. And will Britain actually do anything serious-especially as this has been going on for a decade

    israel (7ae4b1)

  90. The United States shares the United Kingdom’s assessment that Russia is responsible for the reckless nerve agent attack on a British citizen and his daughter, and we support the United Kingdom’s decision to expel Russian diplomats as a just response,” White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said in a statement.

    “This latest action by Russia fits into a pattern of behavior in which Russia disregards the international rules-based order, undermines the sovereignty and security of countries worldwide, and attempts to subvert and discredit Western democratic institutions and processes,” she continued.

    “The United States is working together with our allies and partners to ensure that this kind of abhorrent attack does not happen again.”

    Mr. Kasparov still needs that fresh pair of panties but you can cancel the therapy dog

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  91. I’m not sure what our action should be regarding an attack in Britain. Certainly we should be supportive of May’s actions, but the retaliation is NOT ours to make. We might point out that, had this happened here, we would view it as use of chemical weapons on US soil and react poorly indeed.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  92. And, lookie there. The administration seems to have taken a reasonable line. It seems like Patterico may get that thing he hoped for.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  93. Further from that same Hill article:

    The White House’s official statement on the attack came just hours after United States Ambassador to the United Nations (U.N.) Nikki Haley said that Russia had used a nerve agent to poison the former Russian spy and his daughter.

    “The United States believes that Russia is responsible for two people in the United Kingdom using a military-grade nerve agent,” Haley said earlier Wednesday.

    U.K. officials have blamed Russia for the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia. Both are critically ill after the attack.

    White House deputy press secretary Raj Shah also said Wednesday that it “certainly appears” that Russia was behind the poisoning.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  94. I think he would be more concerned abt the actions taken

    I think you’re right, and I also think May’s principled but naive “we have no quarrel with the Russian people” approach isn’t very wise.

    They (and we) should do everything we can to undermine his popularity, because that is the foundation of his power to harm us. If we wanted to, we could make life very inconvenient and unpleasant for his supporters (the Russian people), like it was in the last days of the USSR.

    Russia is a pariah state, and should be treated as one as long as a murderous gangster is in charge.

    Also, as you point out, Russia is a fundamentally weak and poor country; if they keep causing problems, they should be reminded of that fact.

    Dave (445e97)

  95. If May were serious, she would have embargoed Russian caviar. That would be the equivalent of “blood, sweat, and tears” for the British ruling class.

    nk (dbc370)

  96. Nein, Herr Putz

    Which of their anonymous sources did you find most convincing?

    Dave (445e97)

  97. No, they need money keeping up kensington and Chelsea and other posh burgs affloat

    narciso (d1f714)

  98. I trust the Free Beacon reporter, ConDave.

    Colonel Haiku (33b771)

  99. @101. If May were serious, she would have embargoed Russian caviar. That would be the equivalent of “blood, sweat, and tears” for the British ruling class.

    Caviar?! It’ll be a cold day at Number 10 before they get down to leaving tins of caviar on the docks. Literally. Per The Guardian in 2014, Russia’s Gazprom, the state-owned Russian energy giant, is the fourth biggest provider of natural gas to UK businesses.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  100. Russia is a pariah state, and should be treated as one as long as a murderous gangster is in charge.

    “Now who’s being naive?”

    Russia has never been ruled by nice people. Putin is a great improvement over the Communists, who were themselves improvements over the czars (who kept 99% of the population as serfs along with killing who they pleased).

    Putin is a retail killer. He’s not Stalin. He doesn’t have death camps out in Siberia and people do not fear the knock in the night. What he HAS done is brought Russia back from the ruin that the Communists left and Yeltzin allowed to fester. He is a despot and ruthless, but he acts in what he sees as Russia’s interests.

    Russia could do worse. It has mostly always DONE worse.

    Now, that doesn’t mean that we should let him do what he pleases outside of Russia, or even inside. We have our own interests and among these are restraining Russian expansion. His attacks on “traitors” (and this guy WAS a traitor) in foreign lands have to be made costly.

    But he isn’t Stalin, or Mao. He isn’t even Brezhnev. He’s just a strongman in a country that likes those.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  101. So, I saw “The Death of Stalin” the other night. I think folks here would like it. Although it is satirical and unfair, it has a great cast and shows the incredible fear that Russians had under Stalin and their difficulty getting past that when he died. Not to mention the power struggle, the players and the issues. (Spoiler: Beria is a bad guy).

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4686844

    Kevin M (752a26)

  102. I only heard about this through Tim powers declare, they called it the rabkin then, the overseas branch of the okrana, the mystery of the soviet degringolade was little like that of wakandas wealth.

    narciso (d1f714)

  103. As opposed to yagoda or yezhov, its a matter of degree, not kind.

    narciso (d1f714)

  104. He was just the next person down the line:

    http://ukemonde.com/genocide/margolisholocaust.html

    narciso (d1f714)

  105. Maybe a mob should go down to the docks and throw the caviar into the sea.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  106. And, lookie there. The administration seems to have taken a reasonable line. It seems like Patterico may get that thing he hoped for.

    As Kasparov says, it doesn’t matter what “the administration” says. It matters wheat Trump himself says. Further, while a sing-song “this was written by someone else and I am reading it” statement, if we get such a thing, would be better than nothing, the only thing that will mean anything to Putin is if Trump says it himself in his own words. Which I don’t think he ever will.

    Patterico (8bf811)

  107. Frankly, I put more weight on what the Administration says than what Trump says, since he’ll say three contradictory things before breakfast.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  108. So say this was a indiscriminate attack on a military installation and surrounding village, what is the proportionate response, an incursion into novgorod, bala shita (the latter is their camp pearly/ft banning)

    narciso (d1f714)

  109. 113.Maybe a mob should go down to the docks and throw the caviar into the sea.

    Maybe a Siegfried should get smart and go back to the tried and true brellies w/poison pellets, instead, a la Georgi Markov.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  110. Now, that doesn’t mean that we should let him do what he pleases outside of Russia, or even inside.

    That’s all I’m saying. We have tried playing nice with him for a long time. Except for maybe a brief period after 9/11, when he was still new and consolidating power, he hasn’t reciprocated. Quite the opposite.

    Regardless of Trump’s debt of gratitude, exposure to blackmail, and immersion in a sea of paid Russian agents, Putin deserves the same treatment as Kim, and the Mullahs, and Assad. No business as usual while he’s attacking our allies with chemical weapons, invading and annexing neighbors, meddling in our elections and generally trying to p*ss in our borscht.

    Hit back twice as hard, and make America great again.

    For starters, Putin’s buddies Edward Snowden and Julian Assange can meet with unfortunate accidents. Should probably take out one or two of his mid-level capo-regimes that were implicated in the election meddling too, so he gets the message clearly.

    Dave (445e97)

  111. What would Amos McCoy say about it? He played “checkies”…

    Why won’t Robert Mueller – who has asked his good friend Rod Rosenstein to expand his investigation in all sorts of ways – ask to have it include investigating anything to do with Hillary Clinton?

    Colonel Haiku (33b771)

  112. That is the name of their spetnaz/fsb training facility.

    Because he is a guided missile as rosenstein explains.

    narciso (d1f714)

  113. @107. But he [Putin] isn’t Stalin, or Mao. He isn’t even Brezhnev. He’s just a strongman in a country that likes those.

    Flotsam; a survivor clinging to the wreckage of a once proud superpower desperate to remain relevant. He’ll be dead and gone in a decade or two. It’s the Russia that emerges afterwards to plan for. They’re a proud people.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  114. Seems quaint now, but the first time Tillerson’s name was floated for SOS, Rush Limbaugh in his monologue for that day waxed eloquently about how incredible it was for Tillerson to be under consideration for SOS.

    I was sympathetic to that view also, but later switched sides when I found Tillerson was strongly for certifying Iran was compliant. They may have been compliant but there was little for them to do other than saying, without any inspection ” we are compliant” so that is of course meaningless.

    Post deal oil contracts in Iran have not met expectations so maybe Tillerson from Exxon was showing loyalty to the Oil industry so his colleagues would feel more confident about making deals in Iran?

    william elbel (fd5d32)

  115. I mentioned bandera and konovalets, because they were American intelligence assets, back then (yes they had blood on their hands)
    And Munich was the base of operations for the fledgling German service.

    narciso (d1f714)

  116. So a little asset redeployment will change the mind of someone who gassed a whole theatre, to get at a half dozen Chechens, who had thw,spetnaz storm a school in belan, now who’s being naive.

    narciso (d1f714)

  117. So I guess Kasparov believes pompeo was also chosen by putin

    Whycoh (7ae4b1)

  118. Now, that doesn’t mean that we should let him do what he pleases outside of Russia, or even inside. We have our own interests and among these are restraining Russian expansion. His attacks on “traitors” (and this guy WAS a traitor) in foreign lands have to be made costly.

    But he isn’t Stalin, or Mao. He isn’t even Brezhnev. He’s just a strongman in a country that likes those.

    Kevin M (752a26) — 3/14/2018 @ 6:10 pm

    It reminds me of Kong: Skull Island, which I watched last night. Too many Sam Jacksons running around here not seeing what happens if they kill Kong.

    Pinandpuller (7bbd2f)

  119. You know the Russians handled things in chechnya, no fancy barracks like gitmo an open pit
    (Filtration centers)

    https://mobile.twitter.com/drawandstrike/status/974091059620872195

    narciso (d1f714)

  120. Kevin, you overstate how bad the czars were. Mass murder, gulags, and engineered show trials were not in their repertoire. But they were despotic in ways the rest of Europe had put in the past by the mid 19th century. Putin is not as bad as the Communists who trained him but he is comparable to, say, Nikolai I.

    Kishnevi (8adcb8)

  121. Frankly, I put more weight on what the Administration says than what Trump says, since he’ll say three contradictory things before breakfast.

    And yet he is the guy in charge.

    If he never personally opens his mouth to condemn Putin in his own words — and I am predicting he won’t — that tells Putin a lot.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  122. The thread above suggested a real response sort of like the beat down, wager corps got in deir Er sour, some weeks ago

    http://powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/03/gina-haspel-tom-cottons-take.php

    narciso (d1f714)

  123. Putin is not as bad as the Communists who trained him but he is comparable to, say, Nikolai I.

    I’m not sure there’s much space between Putin and Brezhnev when it comes to morality. Putin is hale and far more energetic, which makes him arguably worse.

    From what I’ve been reading in the excellent Pursuit of Power (Patterico-friendly Amazon link!), the 19th Century Czars (even the highly reactionary ones) preserved some conception of honor that Putin and his Communist progenitors lack entirely.

    Dave (445e97)

  124. Sergei Viktorovich Skripal (Russian: Серге́й Ви́кторович Скрипаль, IPA: [sʲɪrˈɡʲej ˈvʲiktərəvʲɪtɕ skrʲɪˈpalʲ], born 23 June 1951) is a former Russian military intelligence officer who acted as a double agent for the UK’s intelligence services during the 1990s and early 2000s.[4] In December 2004, he was arrested by Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) and later tried, convicted of high treason, and imprisoned. He settled in the UK in 2010 following the Illegals Program spy swap.

    On 4 March 2018, Skripal and his daughter Yulia, who was visiting from Moscow, were poisoned with a nerve agent.[5] As of 9 March 2018,[6] they remain in a critical condition at Salisbury District Hospital.[7][8] The poisoning is being investigated as an attempted murder.[5] Shortly after the incident, the Russian government said they had no information as to Sergei Skripal′s nationality;[9][10] British police said he was a British citizen.[11]

    His daughter visiting from Moscow was the vector. The poison used must have been diluted since it’s some kind of designer poison, 5 to 8 times more potent than VX, that can be delivered as a liquid, aerosol, powder or gas. I’m guessing it was secreted on her luggage. Maybe in a cosmetic.

    SO it’s entirely possible there was no crime committed on UK soil. The crime was committed in Moscow. Maybe at the airport.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  125. I’m also reading that Russia has asked for samples to verify the claim it is the nerve agent in question, but are being refused.

    That’s interesting.

    It is not.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  126. That seems improbable tiger, more people would have gotten sick on the plane, more than likely the perpetrators are out of the country, this is what they call ‘wet work’ carried out by the ‘illegals’ division, what we call none official cover.

    narciso (d1f714)

  127. This guy Sergei Skripal was the Russian version of Ed Snowden.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  128. Kevin, you overstate how bad the czars were. Mass murder, gulags, and engineered show trials were not in their repertoire. But they were despotic in ways the rest of Europe had put in the past by the mid 19th century. Putin is not as bad as the Communists who trained him but he is comparable to, say, Nikolai I.

    It is hard to compare keeping the vast majority of the population as slaves into the 20th century with mass murderers a few decades later. Nikolai I had 50 million slaves. I may put more weight on that than you do, particularly as the 19th century progresses.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  129. Why? This Novichok agent is special made to be discrete. Only a policeman investigating the Skripal apartment was affected as spill over.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent

    papertiger (c8116c)

  130. This guy Sergei Skripal was the Russian version of Ed Snowden.

    He had it coming! suggests the Trump fan.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  131. Dave,

    Brezhnev had a totalitarian state that ran every enterprise, sold every chicken and generally controlled every last person and thing.

    Putin has no such apparatus. It’s the difference between “authoritarian” and “totalitarian”. Putin has far fewer minions.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  132. Putin has no compunction about one life or a dozen or 300 if you subscribe to ryazan, as you’ve suggested in the past, in fact the soviet’s coined many phrases the most relevant is ‘shmert spionem’

    narciso (d1f714)

  133. Question: If fugitives Klaus Fuchs or Kim Philby had been killed by pissed-off US or British agents, would that be wrong? Why, exactly? Is Obama a monster for ordering drone strikes on US persons overseas?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  134. I did consider telling Putin that he could have earned himself a Nobel Peace Prize if he had simply done this by drone.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  135. Ethically, no, practically its not done there are exceptions like Dan mitrione who was training Uruguayan military, there were some soviet operatives in Argentina, but its two easy to escalate. The wrath of god operation against black September was in that same vein.

    narciso (d1f714)

  136. Here you go. The original SMERSH, a contraction of Smert Shpionam (death to spies) formed and named by Stalin in WWII. https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/russia/smersh.htm

    nk (dbc370)

  137. Murder is always wrong. Murder by stealth wronger.

    nk (dbc370)

  138. Yes I was going by memory, plochy has the low down on the operations again on officials, and where it ended up.

    narciso (d1f714)

  139. He had it coming! suggests the Trump fan.

    That’s a cheap shot. He was a former Russian intelligence officer, convicted in a court of law and sentenced to 15 years for espionage. These are facts reported in the Wikipedia. That makes him the equivalent of Snowden.

    Obama swapped a bunch of Russian spys for this guy. Remember Anna Chapman? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Chapman

    They got their playboy model back; we got Sergei and a TV drama starring Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys.

    I’m not saying Skirple deserved it (and if you remember I think of Snowden as a sort of hero, and the NSA as the antichrist).

    He damn well should have expected it though.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  140. and if you remember I think of Snowden as a sort of hero, and the NSA as the antichrist

    I did not remember that, and if that’s your view then my comment was indeed unfair, and I retract it and apologize.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  141. Which is not to say that I agree with you about Snowden. I don’t.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  142. Its an exceedingly odd to still think Snowden in that way. Hes an abject lesson along with reality winner at the absurd mindset of some cogs in the ayatem.

    narciso (d1f714)

  143. It is hard to compare keeping the vast majority of the population as slaves into the 20th century with mass murderers a few decades later.

    Russian serfs owned by the state were freed in 1866. Privately owned serfs were freed in 1861. While the former serfs (like freed slaves in the US around the same time) of course had a period of adjustment, I don’t think the vast majority of the population were slaves into the 20th century.

    Brezhnev had a totalitarian state that ran every enterprise, sold every chicken and generally controlled every last person and thing.

    Putin has no such apparatus. It’s the difference between “authoritarian” and “totalitarian”. Putin has far fewer minions.

    Putin’s system is more efficient yes. And you’re correct that property rights make the present Russian system more humane in important ways, although the Soviet economic system wasn’t Brezhnev’s personal creation, any more than the current Russian economy is Putin’s.

    I was thinking more of the leaders’ attitudes toward the rule of law, sanctity of life and dissent, though.

    Dave (445e97)

  144. I believe we should dismantle the NSA as a gross violation of the 4th amendment, the building it’s housed in buldozed. The ground it stood on salted.

    Would have saved Obama from committing a whole lot of mischieve.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  145. Is it part of the understanding, when spies are exchanged, that they are fair game for later assassination?

    I would have thought the opposite was true – that the exchanged spies are granted the equivalent of an amnesty for the acts that resulted in their original detainment, apart from being persona non grata in the territory of the side releasing them.

    Dave (445e97)

  146. This seems a weird way to assassinate someone. Smearing a nerve agent, traceable to its origin, on a car door? Kinda sloppy and dumb. I mean, there’s way more discrete poisons, easier to handle and just as deadly. Someone went to a lot of bother doing this. Looks to me like either Putin was sending a message, or is being framed.

    I know most would find the second option unthinkable, but then on the other hand Hillary tried to pin her loss on the Russians. Not that I’m implicating her, but it does occurs to me the Ukraine was part of the USSR, possible access, and has motive to draw NATO into their troubles.

    Maybe I’m just getting cynical about the whole Russian thing. There’s a lot of energy being put into making Russia the world’s bad guy, when they are pretty far down the list of bad actors that are a threat to the west.

    Just my 2 cents.

    the Bas (3bcea0)

  147. The thing that’s puzzling is the Russians had Sergei Skripal bagged, tagged, with detailed confession given, tried and convicted appeals heard and denied, in prison for 15 years by military tribunal.

    No firing squad. So… that suggests his case wasn’t a life and death issue.

    Why all of a sudden did the Russians do the u-turn?

    Skripal’s wife has recently passed away from natural causes. Skripal’s daughter, who still resides in Russia, recently lost her husband under more shady circumstances.

    Could they have suicided?

    papertiger (c8116c)

  148. Right, well, there are easier ways to kill someone than poisoning their tea with radioactive Polonium too, but that didn’t stop them.

    I think the horror of the methods and the unmistakable origin is probably a part of the message.

    Dave (445e97)

  149. When has relying on British Intelligence EVER gone well for the US? When have the British not been eager hos for liberal motivated reasoners from Keynes to Kanye? Why should we ELEVATE THE DISCOURSE to war-level over what’s effectively spy-vs-spy skirmishing of the type that goes on all the time, with normal governments preferring to bilaterally disavow and privately honor their covert agents in the field?

    Especially now, when Britain has effectively turned itself into the 1984 police state in all but name? Free speech is effectively banned there, so what sort of ‘vetting’ could you possibly trust from the nation that gave us Tony Blair and Christopher Steele? Why would you do anything OTHER than send vague, Sphinx-like assurances to these half-mad telly-watching universal opportunists?

    Nothing about the way this event is being handled by the usual suspects on the left side convinces me that it’s anything other than RAH RAH RUSSIAN WAR RAH RAH by exactly the sorts who use war’s chaos to first burn all prior documents incriminating themselves. Just as they couldn’t get American intelligence to sign off on sketchy Russian collusion evidence themselves, preferring to have it outsourced to British fabulists, they’re outsourcing the casus belli for Russian war away from the American military to the a leader so ineffectual she STILL can’t get Brexit implemented properly.

    And you’re telling me to take THESE people seriously? When we came so close to having their sympathizers and syncophants in control of OUR country? No! Compared to ANYONE ruling Britain currently, Trump is always right, and you should defend every action he takes on the principle of at least he’s not the British.

    Tellurian (a3c41a)

  150. 160. When has relying on British Intelligence EVER gone well for the US?

    =yawn=

    British spies were first to spot Trump team’s links with Russia

    Britain’s spy agencies played a crucial role in alerting their counterparts in Washington to contacts between members of Donald Trump’s campaign team and Russian intelligence operatives, the Guardian has been told.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/13/british-spies-first-to-spot-trump-team-links-russia

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  151. No! Compared to ANYONE ruling Britain currently, Trump is always right, and you should defend every action he takes on the principle of at least he’s not the British.


    There is something so American in that statement all I can do is smile.

    Rev.Hoagie (1b0402)

  152. Hahahaha. DCSCA is using a leftist Brit paper to support a leftist Brit lie. I love it. Why not quote Rolling Stone?

    Rev.Hoagie (1b0402)

  153. that the exchanged spies are granted the equivalent of an amnesty

    Well, yes. And Kim Philby was just such. It’s not so much amnesty but a mutual pact against that form of dirty war.

    I will point out that Putin OPENLY disavows such an amnesty, saying state traitors should expect “justice.” If someone were to jab Mr Snowden with a ricin-coated knitting needle it would be fair play by Putin’s rules.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  154. Another view of the situation. All eyes now on Patterico:

    “The Red Line shoe is now on the other foot. By issuing a warning against infringing his freedom of action Putin has drawn a Red Line and Haley just threatened to cross it in the most public possible way. Radio Free Europe writes “the United States has said it is ready to act in Syria to end chemical attacks and “inhuman suffering” if Russia, Iran, and Syria continue to allegedly ignore a 30-day cease-fire approved by the United Nations, prompting a warning from Moscow that it will strike back if the lives of its servicemen are threatened”.

    What Russia will do when the clock counts down remains to be seen. The US threat is both asymmetric and strategically calculating. The US has power dominance over Russia in Syria. In almost any scenario except the use of nuclear weapons or nerve gas, Russia is likely to be badly worsted in Syria. Striking at Assad and Iran will be supported by Saudi Arabia and Israel.

    It is dangerous but also profoundly psychological. Vladimir Putin has now been threatened twice by women, Theresa May and Nikki Haley, even as stands for election as the Macho Man. The Kremlin strongman can hardly back down now without immense loss of face, which is perhaps the point. Putin is in a tight spot. He can either eat crow or roll the dice. His first reaction in past situations has been not to yield but double down. This will make the next two weeks extraordinarily dangerous. It’s a big data point. The administration has taken the risk.”

    https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/fourteen-days/

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  155. What’s all this then, ASPCA!?!?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  156. Why per your and Kasparov would it even matter what Trump says? Isn’t he already in the bag for putin. Hiring and firing based on his wants?

    Whycoh (7ae4b1)

  157. 157, yes the world’s great white defendant, the title transitioning from apartheid South Africa.

    urbanleftbehind (ddcc04)

  158. Man these conspiracies draw you in. If putin only cares what Trump says why would he have tillerson fired?

    Whycoh (7ae4b1)

  159. I don’t know if he should go, but I also thought his withdrawal was premature. Worse than that, it was because of pressure from Al Franken. Sessions’s response at the time should have been that there are laws and DOJ rules regarding recusal in particular cases, and he would take advice on the matter from DOJ’s attorneys, the Office of Special Counsel and the Inspector General (optional: and not some comedian).

    nk (dbc370)

  160. It’s the same trick comey pulled on Ashcroft, its,like we don’t learn anything in 14 years

    narciso (d1f714)

  161. And as I pointed out, the Soviets under andropov didn’t observe these rules, one might say wadi haddad taking out the meloy in Beirut was more typical.

    narciso (d1f714)

  162. Tellurian’s a funny fellow, eh?:

    half-mad t̲e̲l̲l̲y̲-̲w̲a̲t̲c̲h̲i̲n̲g̲ universal opportunists. . .

    Quite-like he’s talking about Trump himself!

    Q! (86710c)

  163. Ambassador meloy 1975, haddad was kgb, arafat was gru.

    narciso (d1f714)

  164. The nsa was a product of the cold war, from comint, like gchq from Bletchley park.

    narciso (d1f714)

  165. Some random driveby named Tellurian wrote (#160)(boldface omitted, incredibly enough):

    Compared to ANYONE ruling Britain currently, Trump is always right, and you should defend every action he takes on the principle of at least he’s not the British.

    But it’s definitely not a personality cult. Nope, no way. But yeah, by every action, that includes screwing porn stars while your wife is recovering from childbirth. Defend him!

    My God, the lickspittledom in that! This is worse than the worst Obama-worship I’ve ever seen. I can’t think of a more un-American statement than this, actually. This is right up with the Dear Leader-worship of the Norks — just as pathetic, just as dangerous, just as brainless, and just as disgusting.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  166. Well Mays previous record at the home office is not encouraging Boris is more so, on balance.

    narciso (d1f714)

  167. Ask steven scalier how he was targeted and the accessories Durbin and Duckworth skate.

    narciso (d1f714)

  168. When is the last time the boys had good intelligence, oh right the saudi asset Brennan burned?

    narciso (d1f714)

  169. Free American
    I once was, but am no more.
    Soul given to Trump.

    — Cpl. Haiku

    Beldar (fa637a)

  170. Random drivebys define personality cults.

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  171. And here’s the weak-kneed response we’ve all been expecting:

    “It certainly looks like the Russians were behind it”

    Dave (445e97)

  172. If one subscribes to the idea that Putin engineered ryazan, some of politskayava’s conjectures about nord ost and beslan, then may is very near beer, and one might have to go harry palmer in some instances

    narciso (d1f714)

  173. President Trump wisely understands you have to take the conclusions from coward-ass lickspittle intelligence agencies like the CIA with a grain of salt

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  174. As usual what hasbeen bandied about under the guise of intelligence was an obscene joke, like Manchester Westminster parson tube:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/15/salisbury-poisoning-nerve-agent-feared-have-spread-police-officer/

    narciso (d1f714)

  175. @Beldar #182… lawyers add unnecessary expense and pain to nearly every facet of modern life. But where would we be without them?

    Probably having gunfights in the streets…

    Colonel Haiku (33b771)

  176. Death to the #NeverTrump demons!!!

    Colonel Haiku (33b771)

  177. @163 Rev Hoagie

    You can’t always get what you want.

    Pinandpuller (916c3f)

  178. Ben wittless does get increasingly silly.

    narciso (d1f714)

  179. Defending every action of someone I’m not married to is a big ask. Even then . But I’ve seen real crazy, like road rage by proxy from the passenger seat while I’m the one driving. Trump ain’t that kind of crazy.

    If anything it’s Mueller and associates trying to grab the wheel.

    Pinandpuller (916c3f)

  180. @163. British spy agency warned CIA of Trump ties to Russia …

    https://www.businessinsider.com/british-spy-agency-trump-russia-ties-2017-4

    Report: British spies first spotted Trump-Russia links….

    http://www.thehill.com; http://www.cnn.com... etc., etc.

    HaHaHaHaHa…

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  181. Same people, its called an echo chamber the head of ghcq took early retirement after the first report.

    narciso (d1f714)

  182. “…half-mad t̲e̲l̲l̲y̲-̲w̲a̲t̲c̲h̲i̲n̲g̲ universal opportunists. . .

    Quite-like he’s talking about Trump himself!”

    CNN and Fox are pretty bad, but they have nothing on the execrable drivel from the licensed agencies.

    And Trump is, as we all know, an ABSOLUTE, not a partial madman.

    Dysphoria Sam (a3c41a)


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