Facebook Caves to Putin Censorship — With Bonus COLLUSION Connection!
If you don’t have your head up Donald Trump’s rear end, you know that Vladimir Putin, while nominally an elected official, is actually a feared dictator who censors his opposition (and, if he deems it necessary, kills them). What does Putin do when one of his rivals is exposing corruption based on material on a social media service like Facebook’s Instagram? Easy peasy: just tell Instagram to take it down. They’ll comply:
Facebook-owned Instagram has taken down posts related to bribery allegations made by Russian opposition leader Alexey Navalny against the country’s deputy prime minister.
Navalny, who is Russian President Vladimir Putin’s fiercest rival, posted a video on YouTube earlier this month, that showed metals oligarch Oleg Deripaska allegedly meeting with Russian Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Prikhodko on the billionaire’s yacht in Norway.
In the video, Navalny used Instagram posts from a woman called Nastya Rybka, who he claimed to be an escort. Rybka was on the yacht with both Deripaska and Prikhodko. The 25 minute video, which has been watched over 5 million times, claims that bribery took place.
The Wall Street Journal has described Navalny as “the man Vladimir Putin fears most.” While this video is primarily about a corrupt oligarch and a Putin official, and not primarily about Putin himself, Facebook would presumably be willing to take down anything Putin told them to remove, including posts promoting Navalny as a candidate. Anything to keep those sweet sweet rubles coming in.
Social media giants operate in many countries located all over the world, not just in the United States. Governments everywhere have a penchant for trying to censor stuff they don’t like, but here in the U.S., there are systems to thwart that natural government desire. Not so much in places like Russia or China. Google and Facebook are still inaccessible in China, and the price of coming back is bowing to their laws promoting censorship. They may well be willing to pay that price.
The situation creates a tension between the companies’ desire (to the extent it exists at all) to avoid censorship, and their desire to spread their services far and wide, in service of their pocketbook and shareholders — and arguably also in service of access to information. A 2016 article in the Atlantic describes the tension, and the arguments in favor of following local laws:
Google’s move to pull the plug in China is an extreme example of the kinds of decisions Internet companies operating abroad are often up against: If they want to do business, they have to abide by local laws, which can include restrictions on speech. And since the United States has some of the most permissive freedom-of-speech laws in the world, American companies must adapt in order to do business even in parts of the world that are culturally very similar to the U.S.
Western European countries, which receive top marks from Freedom House for online openness, are far less tolerant than the U.S. of hateful speech and images. In Germany, where distributing swastikas is considered hate speech and is illegal, regulators recently investigated a complaint that Facebook was not adequately enforcing national hate-speech law. But it’s inconceivable that Facebook would close down its service in Germany just because the government asks for more censorship than the First Amendment would permit.
In countries with more repressive governments, companies routinely receive requests to take down a much wider range of content that violates local laws. In Russia, for example, speaking ill of public officials can lead to costly libel suits; just across the Black Sea, “insulting Turkishness” is punishable by fines and jail time.
There are a few things that companies can do to push back against censorship-happy governments without losing access to an entire country.
Lee Rowland, a senior staff attorney at the American Civil Liberties Union, says companies should generally submit to governments’ requests for censorship, if it means they can keep delivering their services. But when they take down content from their platform, Rowland says, the company must be transparent.
“If these companies do whatever they’re capable of doing to publicize that their content is being screened, monitored, and sometimes censored by governments, I think there’s a really good argument that maintaining a social-media presence is inherently a liberalizing force,” Rowland said.
I see Rowland’s point, but I’m skeptical. At a certain point, following local laws becomes immoral. What if local laws required promoting the ideology of ISIS and removing any material that questioned their murderous view of Islam? It’s also worth noting that Rowland’s rationalization for obeying censorship laws has the side benefit of earning the social media companies a lot of cash.
Here, Facebook can point to the fact that a Russian court has issued an injunction against the video: “Deripaska won an injunction against the video after a local court ruled that the video had violated his privacy rights.” But Russian courts dance to Vladimir Putin’s tune, and judges often literally call the Kremlin to ask what their decision will be. Russian courts also participated in the phony criminal cases against Bill Browder and the deceased Sergei Magnitsky, but that doesn’t mean Interpol has to obey the red notices issued pursuant to those farcical proceedings.
BONUS COLLUSION CONNECTION: One interesting side note in the story about Navalny: the YouTube video that is at the center of the firestorm is still online. It’s wildly entertaining, actually — and not just because of the attractive women in skimpy clothing. Navalny tells with flair the story of how they caught Prikhodko (or “Daddy,” as Nastya Rybka calls him). They really got the goods on the guy, and it’s a joy to watch the proof rain down on Prikhodko’s head.
And here’s an angle that will be interesting to those following the Trump-Putin connection, and enraging to those who casually dismiss it. The video ends by reminding us that Deripaska, the oligarch who showered gifts on Prikhodko, was also paying one Paul Manafort for years — and Manafort offered to give Deripaska private briefings about the campaign. Knowing that Manafort was so intimately tied with an oligarch who we now know was bribing a top Putin official is fascinating, even for someone like me who is skeptical of the collusion narrative.
Navalny shows the viewer video of a CNN reporter running around asking Deripaska whether the briefings offered by Manafort were intended for the Kremlin. But, Navalny says, this was unconvincing at the time — because no direct connection had been shown between Deripaska and Putin, other than the usual closeness Putin would necessarily have with any oligarch. But here, Navalny says, we have a much more direct and close link between Deripaska and the Kremlin — and therefore, potentially, between Manafort and Putin … just around the time Donald Trump was accepting the GOP nomination.
Hmmm.
You can watch the video below, with subtitles. Google hasn’t taken it down.
Yet.
[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]
Oh Captain! Ensign Mueller reports Helmsman Hoax steamed over our own tow line, too. 13 times.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/16/2018 @ 10:57 amKinda long winded, wouldn’t ya agree.
ropelight (194a2b) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:01 amVery much the same thing was done by a French court to the magazine who exposed President Francois Hollande’s new mistress. http://www.mediareport.nl/en/press-law/09042014/french-court-awards-damages-for-breach-of-privacy-to-alleged-mistress-of-french-president-hollande/
I like to be in America.
nk (dbc370) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:05 amyou can know Vladimir Putin is a feared dictator and still adore our president, President Donald Trump, to absolute pieces.
i know this for a 100% fact
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:06 amSome people can know that our president, President Donald Trump, shot a guy on Fifth Avenue while shtupping a $130,000 hooker, and still adore him to absolute pieces.
nk (dbc370) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:15 amGovernments everywhere have a penchant for trying to censor stuff they don’t like, but here in the U.S., there are systems to thwart that natural government desire.
FBI dildo-lick Robert Mueller just did indictments on people for putting content on social media, and Rod Rosytwat fan-girled him on live tv
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:16 amSome people can know that our president, President Donald Trump, shot a guy on Fifth Avenue while shtupping a $130,000 hooker, and still adore him to absolute pieces.
you’re describing me to an absolute t you know that don’t you
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:17 amThis strikes me as likely to be a big damned deal — and one that the POTUS probably ought to be glad to see, based on things Rosenstein went out of his way to say at the press conference at which he (not Mueller) announced the indictments: Mueller indicts 13 Russians for interfering in US election.
I suspect this will dominate the weekend news. Perhaps our host or his co-bloggers will share their reactions in a new post.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:17 amPutin fears Navalny
https://worldpoliticsreview.com/articles/21684/the-latest-kremlin-mystery-why-is-alexey-navalny-still-free-in-putin-s-russia
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:18 amFeared by whom? All the evidence suggests that he is popular in Russia. After the chaos of the 90s and insane levels of corruption, Russian are happy with simply “normal” corruption.
Mike P. (dddb3b) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:21 amYou can see why it bothers President Snowflake so much that he can’t just pick up the phone and do the same thing (unless he’s calling the National Enquirer to spike a story from one of his hookers).
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:21 amMike
Most Russians are focused on corruption…that oligarchy thing.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:24 amHere’s a link to a video of Rosenstein’s press conference.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:25 amSafety in numbers
If we don’t hang together we’ll hang separately
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:28 amThank you, Beldar. Interesting.
nk (dbc370) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:37 amthe question is what is it about these indictments that validates the need for a special counsel
it’s very banal straining-at-gnats stuff if you reflect on all of what rosytwat averred in his press conference
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:41 amAccording to the report, Wikileaks was offered at least 68 gigabytes of data from the Russian Interior Ministry by an anonymous source. But Assange didn’t feel that dropping the documents was a high priority. Foreign Policy was able to view partial chat logs from the time and was given details by a source that provided the internal communications.
The logs show only Wikileaks’ side of the conversation, with an unidentified representative reportedly writing, “As far as we recall these are already public.” In 2014, the BBC reported on some of the hacked materials that were being offered to Assange, but according to Foreign Policy, that was less than half of the materials that Wikileaks turned down in 2016.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmodo.com/assange-turned-down-dirt-on-russia-strongly-suggesting-1797954045/amp
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:47 amIn a pig’s eye. [classic reference]
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:49 amPresident Trump’s numerous attempts to cover-up the crimes documented in today’s indictments make him an accessory after the fact.
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:51 amHeh. You can’t tell the Players without a Program.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:52 amSet up a fake news organization with hundreds of employees?
lol
Ted Turner call your office.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:52 amthen why didn’t fbi dildolick Robert Mueller do an indictment on our president, President Donald Trump
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:52 amMueller is taking it up the food chain and not shooting too high, missing and emboldening the perps like they did with Mitchell in 73.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:59 amyeah that’s what i was thinking
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:00 pmIf you don’t have your head up Donald Trump’s rear end, you know that Vladimir Putin, while nominally an elected official, is actually a feared dictator who censors his opposition (and, if he deems it necessary, kills them).
Hey. Just like the Clintons. Maybe he doesn’t wait until they’re scheduled to appear in court, but same general principle.
What does Putin do when one of his rivals is exposing corruption based on material on a social media service like Facebook’s Instagram? Easy peasy: just tell Instagram to take it down.
Hey. Just like Cicile Richards and Planned Parenthood, when a video emerges of their employees confessing to ghoulism, and turning body parts into Lamborghini payments.
What a coincidence.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:03 pmI watched the press conference. I am impressed with what they pulled off with this indictment.
Any word on the man-child’s reaction? Nothing in the indictment seems to harm him — if anything it seems helpful to him — but he always seems to take allegations of interference like a baby, acting like it’s an accusation that he didn’t win on his own.
Patterico (5747f9) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:04 pm“There’s no allegation that any American was knowingly involved in the conspiracy, Rosenstein said. Nor was there an allegation that the efforts of the defendants affected the outcome of the election. The indictment, he told reporters, is a reminder that “people are not always who they appear to be.” He said the defendants wanted to undermine confidence in our democracy.”
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rod-rosenstein-law-enforcement-announcement-live-stream-updates/
The Never-Trumpers do that on a daily basis.
“After the election of Donald Trump, the defendants allegedly planned rallies in support of President Trump. They also planned rallies against Trump titled, “Trump is NOT my President.”
Sounds like they are anti USA civil cohesion, same as Antifa.
harkin (8256c3) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:06 pmEven Assange teh Commie wanted the lesser weevil than Hillary.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:07 pmwhat did they pull off with this indictment
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:08 pmAt 3:17 in the video:
At 5:20 in the video:
At 5:54:
Totally by the book. But the spin — this is about the Russians wanting to “promote discord in the United States, and undermine public confidence in democracy” — throws no shade on Trump or his campaign. There was a specific question from one of the members of the press present at the briefing (someone named Jessica) about the Trump campaign (at 6:50):
Rosenstein also said that there has been no communications with the Russians about that and that they’d be following ordinary processes for extradition — meaning (I think) that nope, none of these defendants were likely already taken into custody before the announcement of the indictment.
Unless I’m missing it entirely, nothing here — in either the indictment or the press conference —
seems to connect up with anything relating even remotely to the Trump Tower meeting, Gen. Flynn, the Steele dossier & FISA warrant for Page, Jim Comey and his firing, or anything remotely close to those topics. By no means does any of this rule out further indictments from Mueller (with Rosenstein’s approval) relating to any of that.
But this looks to me like the kind of multi-defendant indictment meant to demonstrate that yes, the DOJ and FBI are at least trying to use conventional American criminal law tools to strike back, however ineffectually (and that remains to be seen), against generalized Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 elections. So this would be consistent with an effort by Mueller to begin the process of wrapping up spun-off criminal allegations directly arising out of Mueller’s core mission, i.e., presiding over a foreign intelligence investigation. And it very definitely tends to quantify the degree of Russian interference and the effects thereof — which, in the big picture, entirely discredits the Dem meme that the election was stolen from Hillary.
I’ve gotta think the POTUS is maybe a little happier with Rod Rosenstein today than he was yesterday.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:09 pm“Any word on the [president’s] reaction?
— –
“Rosenstein and FBI Director Christopher Wray briefed President Trump on the indictments Friday, CBS News’ Major Garrett reports, according to two sources familiar with the talks. They told him that that the indictments did not allege cooperation or collusion with Trump campaign.
The briefing was designed to give Mr. Trump maximum information to avoid eliciting an over-reaction from President Trump on Twitter or elsewhere. The imperative, the sources said, was to make sure the president would not “break any glass” over this. The briefing was on the indictments and no other part of the Mueller investigation.“
harkin (8256c3) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:09 pmSo, using “fictitious online personas” is a no-no, but if you use a real one like, say, “nikolas cruz” this means diddly squat to the FBI.
random viking (8138da) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:11 pmYou know what would really be helpful? If Mueller would keep me company while I shop on Craig’s list.
Because sometimes those “people are not always who they appear to be.”
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:11 pmAny word on the man-child’s reaction?
He’s dashing under the rotor wash to catch a ride on Aeroflot One to Florida.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:13 pmNow, there is no allegation in this indictment that any American was a knowing participant in this illegal activity. There is no allegation in the indictment that the charged conduct altered the outcome of the 2016 election
Duped but not colluded.
Like I said the Russians had to be twice as smart as their Marks.
Fortunately for the Russian Fritters, this is not difficult.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:13 pm@16. Remember, Mr. Feet, you cannot blame the Russians for Hillary Clinton setting up a secret server.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:15 pmAny word on the man-child’s reaction?
Probably the same sort of pouting/tantrums we see from people who don’t get the president they want.
random viking (8138da) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:15 pm@ Patterico (#26): The grown-ups at the WH are assuredly telling Trump that this is helpful, from which he’ll conclude, and tweet, that he’s “totally vindicated AGAIN.”
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:16 pmThe briefing was designed to give Mr. Trump maximum information to avoid eliciting an over-reaction from President Trump on Twitter or elsewhere. The imperative, the sources said, was to make sure the president would not “break any glass” over this. The briefing was on the indictments and no other part of the Mueller investigation.“
BREAKING ANY GLASS!?! What the hell are you doing Mr. Mueller? Why are you STILL wasting the peoples time and money on this WILD GOOSE CHASE?
STFU and disband your snipe hunt already, before we bring you up on fraud charges.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:18 pm“Mueller’s indictment confirms what legal representatives for both Facebook and Twitter told a Senate panel on Oct. 31 last year: that Russian operatives sought to harm America by undermining public confidence in President Trump’s election.
Facebook general counsel Colin Stretch said that Russian operatives, after attacking Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton during the election, switched to “fomenting discord about the validity of [Trump’s] election” immediately after he won.
Both Stretch and Twitter general counsel Sean Edgett described it as “accurate” that the Russians were “trying to undermine President Trump’s legitimacy” after the election.
Russian operatives also sought to promote the left-wing identity politics that currently dominate the Democratic Party, previous reporting has shown.
One Russian account promoted a militant, left-wing form of feminism, similar to the kind pushed by Women’s March organizers. The Russian operatives behind the account fooled Women’s March organizers into sharing their divisive propaganda on Facebook, as TheDC first reported……
…….The indictment notes that the operatives organized a pro-Trump rally in New York the same day as the anti-Trump rally, although there is no indication that the pro-Trump rally was as successful as the anti-Trump rally, which had thousands of attendees, including left-wing filmmaker Michael Moore.
Michael Moore, Russian stooge……..but we knew that.
harkin (8256c3) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:18 pmHarkin..the ground is crumbling.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:23 pmSince when is it illegal to have a false persona on the Internet? (Serious question.) Also is sowing discord illegal? Since when is trolling, a crime?
If there are specific crimes, fine. Like credit card stuff. But I don’t like conflating those REAL crimes with something saying it is illegal to sow discord or have a false persona on the Internet. That casts a VERY wide net on speech that can be used in a lot of different situations against different actors than just Russian trolls.
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:23 pmCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
You know what I don’t see? A caviate restricting the freedom of speech, or of the press; with regard to their being Russian.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:25 pmTrump has tweeted a reaction:
“Russia started their anti-US campaign in 2014, long before I announced that I would run for President. The results of the election were not impacted. The Trump campaign did nothing wrong – no collusion!
12:18 PM – 16 Feb 2018“
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:26 pm@ Anonymous (#42): Read the indictment. The things you ask about aren’t charged there, which makes you look uninformed at best, doesn’t it?
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:27 pmThis has Ben’s criptic panties twisted all up.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:33 pmWhat’s kind of hard for me to believe, that no American posted a meme or something in the comment section of the Ruskie’s facebook posts.
But that’s what the dude said. “No American was “a knowing participant” in the Russian efforts to influence the 2016 election.”
Cultural differences perhaps.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:41 pmSince when can one “defraud” the FEC? Was there an actual $ loss? Couldn’t you write a similar indictment against all sorts of US Internet trolls? Even against PR firms? Reporters? Whole thing seems conflated.
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:43 pmOfficial WH statement.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:43 pmCould I get a simple translation of what is being alleged or hinted at in the 25 minute oligarch cheesecake video? I listened to 10 minutes of it but wasn’t getting a simple thesis (that would be proved), but a meandering story. The description by James is hard for me to understand, also.
Just what is the point? Can’t it be described explicitly in a few sentences? Not sure if this is going to go after Trump or Nuland or some mid level Russian dude or what. What is the key point I will get if I struggle through 25 minutes of narrative?
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:48 pmOr maybe what Rosenstein should have said was
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:48 pm“only the wrong party of Americans were “knowing participants” in the Russian efforts to influence the 2016 election”.
Fun fact: On election night 2012, Donald Trump called for violent overthrow of the government.
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:51 pmThat can be done in most places, but not in China, because the fact that something is censored is also a secret and to reveal it would violate local laws. That may have been what was too much for Google to swallow.
China is not like Saudi Arabia, where people know ror can find out what is censored, and can even appeal. In China censorship is disguised as technical difficulties.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:54 pmTranslation: It wasn’t just the presidential race, and it was more than one candidate during the primaries.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:55 pmThs means no Ameroicans knew the Russian government or Russian entities were doing any of this. It doesn’t mean no Americans jopined in. It means no Americans knew taht Russia was behind this.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:58 pmfacebook is a tool of oppression
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:59 pm43. This may violate various computer/impersonation laws.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:01 pmWhole thing looks really thin. A few dudes had some fake sites up. Nothing notable. Cripes…is FBI going to issue reports on fake news or astroturf or 419eater and 4chan next? Not to mention Democratic Underground or Free Republic? Sure there’s never been a dishonest politically motivated post on those sites???
P.s. Do they have criminal indictment of any offical Russian government in this little indictment or just individuals. One thing to have some spy on spy counterintel belief (hopefully better than the Iraqi WMD or the Sudan chem factory). But do they have enough evidence to charge any Russian government actors?
P.s. Do we interfere in other countries’ elections?
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:01 pmA policy of engagement is always problematic.
We were all informed that in South Africa it was akin to making friends with Nazi Germany. Unexpectedly, I am not hearing the same type of shouting in this case. Is this a whitewash by the media? Nah.
Ed from SFV (3400a5) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:02 pmFun Fact: The First Class pool on the Titanic is still filled with water to this day.
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:02 pmIt’s not trump collusion with Russia.
It’s Russian penetration of the Trump campaign – made possible in part by Trump’s limited ethics.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:04 pmJunior and Kellyanne Conway both retweeted material from one of the Russian front organizations exposed in today’s indictments.
Could’ve happened to anyone!
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:05 pmExcuse me. Excuse me.
Was it not common knowlege that Christopher Steele was propagating Russian disinformation that “disparaged” Trump?
Didn’t Buzzfeed report “a Russian dossier with compromising information about Donald Trump”?
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:06 pm@ anonymous (#50), who asked for “a simple translation of what is being alleged”: From the concluding paragraph (¶ 8) of the indictment:
So if you, as an anonymous internet commenter, aren’t obstructing the lawful functions of the U.S. government in any of those ways, you can probably breathe easy.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:07 pmHoagie is trying to say
So? Water is wet. Meh
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:08 pmSome of the names and keywords in the original post must have matched the right search filter.
It appears patterico.com now has its own Kremlin-provided bot!
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:09 pm32. random viking (8138da) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:11 pm
I suppose they couldn’t be sure it was a real name.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/us/politics/nikolas-cruz-youtube-comment-fbi.html
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:09 pmSorry, I meant (in #64) the concluding paragraph of the Introduction in the indictment.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:09 pmDC ROCKED: MUELLER INDICTS 13 RUSSIANS
how are DC rocked Mr. Drudge
how?
how are this rock the DC?
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:10 pmIf I lie and say I am a Marine (I am not) and then something political can I be indicted for defrauding the FEC? What if I wrote a pamphlet to that effect or a letter to the editor? Should we have the government policing this? Maybe with some NSA FISA stuff to make it easier?
And this is what we get from Mueller? Really seems like a lot of horsepower for going after a few Internet trolls. You know what? I think there are some American filing false insurance claims. (That’s at least actually uncontested “fraud”.) Let’s have a special counsel for that with a bunch of expensive outside counsel! WOOT! Kill the gnat with a howitzer!
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:11 pmThe actual problem here, Anonymous is that for decades the democrats have been interfering in our elections but this time they got caught. First by screwing Bernie Sanders then by getting caught with the spying on the Trump campaign crap so they had to make a yuuuuge mess to confuse the issue and cover up their illegal activities. That’s when their buddies in the press snapped into high gear with Russia, Russia, Russia. It’s a little hard for a real estate guy running for president with the out-of-power party to manipulate the FBI, NSA, IRS and DoJ, don’t ya think?
Why do you think the democrat brainless minions have been on a year long “screaming at the sky” crying jag? It used to be when you defrauded an election it stayed defrauded and you won. Something is going very wrong when the leftists can’t steal an honest election! MAFA
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:14 pm@ Anonymous (#70): Okay, now you’ve moved beyond “uninformed” to “resists every effort by others to help inform him and then argues about unrelated stuff out of general crankiness.”
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:15 pmThe Nativists are getting restless.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:15 pmbeldar:
Thanks for the comment on the substance of indictment.
The visa thing seems cut and dried. (Even there, if I go to Korea hoping to get laid and don’t say it explicitly, am I in trouble?) But OK. Not sure about the others. Do you have to register to make speech?
And I don’t like the linking of motive with crime. Who cares? The crime is the crime. Seems to be trying to tie big picture issues to nitty-gritty offenses. (IANAL so apologize if I don’t state my own point to best effect.)
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:18 pmDidn’t Adam Schiff (D) try to secure classified documents from Russians in the Ukraine that he hoped would influence the 2016 presidential elections?
Why YES! Yes he did!
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:20 pmYou see Dr. I have this friend who may have…
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:20 pmDave:
Actually I’m not. But I thought of pulling your leg and acting like I was! But then what if Echelon is reading what I say? I’m sure a process crime could be created out of that.
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:21 pmRev Hoagie:
Yeah, looks like DNC did Sanders a dirty. Maybe we can come up with some little election rule minutia crimes and then stick a “motive” on the front of it. Indict the DNC and Hill for Sanders abuse! They defrauded the FEC (whatever that means).
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:24 pmSo the 190 million that the Dnc paid fusion who hired steele to contract Waldman and Co to launder svr slanders where are those indictments.
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:25 pmIf you are a foreigner attempting to influence the US political system, yes.
That includes not just elections, but also the work of the executive branch, the congress and the courts. There are some exceptions.
Here’s the Department of Justice FAQ on the relevant law (FARA – Foreign Agent Registration Act).
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:25 pm10 millions, that were funneled through pointer and coe
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:26 pm72: The crankiness was a pre-existing condition darnit!
And I am asking about several different topics and commenting on some also. (Disaggregate.)
Like I still don’t get what the point of the Victoria Nulder thingie was–trulio seriosly. Like I am not even disagreeing with Patterico (yet), I just honestly couldn’t get an explicit point. It was just too veiled in description and the video was sooo long and narrative.
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:27 pmMy statement “If you are a foreigner attempting to influence the US political system”
is inaccurate. The law applies to representatives of foreign principals.
Thus, it may apply to Americans working for foreign governments, but does not apply to foreign individuals expressing their personal opinions, I think, unless they are working for or on behalf of a foreign government or organization.
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:29 pmThe indictments and the timing of their announcement is designed to give Mueller and his process legitimacy. Lord knows they are in great need of such. On the surface, they appear to be good, solid work. The importance of them is not what the Left wanted, though. Not by a long shot. Essentially, Mueller announced that the sun will set tonight and rise again tomorrow.
If legitimacy of our elections were truly the issue, going after Russians would not be the highest area of concern. That would be the fraud routinely taking place in major urban centers and in Democrat-controlled counties in California. Judicial Watch is on that case.
Ed from SFV (3400a5) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:30 pmDave 80:
Sounds good. Let’s do an IP catch for the last year of comments on Free Republic and Democratic Underground. I bet we can get some foreign people trying (with little comments) to influence getting the candidate they want to win, to win.
Still seems strange to me. Speech is speech no? Even if for political effect. Do foreign people not have speech rights? Could we make US citiens register as domestic agents if they want to influence an election?
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:31 pmThe law also does not apply to foreigners (e.g. Michael Steele) working for a principal or organization based inside the US.
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:31 pmdave 83:
Just saw your 83. Seems to conflict with my 85 (you good, me bad).
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:34 pmIf they are working on behalf of a foreign principal, they are already required to register as foreign agents. The law has been on the books since 1938.
Any political speech or publications on behalf of a foreign principal must clearly indicate who it is made on behalf of.
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:35 pmYou can see why it bothers President Snowflake so much that he can’t just pick up the phone and do the same thing (unless he’s calling the National Enquirer to spike a story from one of his hookers).
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:21 am
That’s just free enterprise Dave. Like Hollywood development deals or Tony Soprano consulting all the divorce lawyers in his county.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:37 pmSome folks might say Mueller is spiking the story by indicting 13 people who won’t be extradited or likely tried at any point. Can you serve people on Twitter DM’s?
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:39 pmCriminal indictments as a tool of statecraft is a decision that should not take place without weighing the foreign policy implications. In the same way it was unwise for the FBI Director to announce a prosecutorial decision that belonged to the Attorney General it seems equally unwise for the Deputy Attorney General (acting in the AG’s recusal) to announce a decision to prosecute foreign agents and foreign owned organizations without Presidential consultation. Foreign meddling in elections is nothing new. Treating it criminally rather than as the acts of espionage they obviously are is not a decision that should be made lightly and not a decision that should be made by the DAG or DOJ alone.
crazy (d99a88) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:39 pmPresident Trump’s numerous attempts to cover-up the crimes documented in today’s indictments make him an accessory after the fact.
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:51 am
Somebody hacked his “like” button.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:41 pmDave 83: What does foreign principle mean? A state? company? Club? Individual?
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:43 pmMueller is taking it up the food chain and not shooting too high, missing and emboldening the perps like they did with Mitchell in 73.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:59 am
He’s fishing in Russia’s Territorial limit. And he dumped his whole box of food. He might as well sit Trump in an Asian salon and let the guppies exfoliate his feet.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:44 pmI skimmed the indictment a little more:
Seems like the identity fraud is a legit crime–go after it.
The $1.25MM seems significant amount. (Less than payments to Fusion, but still more than I make in a year.)
Little hard for me to tell how much activity was involved in different times. Lot of comments about starting as early as 2014, but then some comments about actions in 2016. Maybe a closer reading would reveal this (or not).
There is a lot of conspiracy/motive language meandered in there. Like the people used the hashtag #MAGA. So what?
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:47 pm“Democratic National Committee Chairman Tom Perez said in a statement that “this indictment gives us a chilling look at just how sophisticated, well-funded and wide-ranging this attack on democracy really was. It should send chills up the spine of every American.””
Not sure if he’s talking about today’s indictments or the DNC conspiring with the Hillary campaign to sabotage Bernie Sanders’ efforts to be the Democratic nominee.
harkin (8256c3) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:48 pmBut this looks to me like the kind of multi-defendant indictment meant to demonstrate that yes, the DOJ and FBI are at least trying to use conventional American criminal law tools to strike back, however ineffectually (and that remains to be seen), against generalized Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 elections. So this would be consistent with an effort by Mueller to begin the process of wrapping up spun-off criminal allegations directly arising out of Mueller’s core mission, i.e., presiding over a foreign intelligence investigation. And it very definitely tends to quantify the degree of Russian interference and the effects thereof — which, in the big picture, entirely discredits the Dem meme that the election was stolen from Hillary.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:09 pm
I think Macy’s calls that “Window Dressing”.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:48 pmIf credentialed diplomats conducting espionage were involved, you might be right.
But the Russian government disavows any involvement in these activities, remember?
Can’t have it both ways.
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:48 pmDave 88:
If the First Amendment does not prevent a law to that effect, could we also pass a law, constitutionally, that required registration for political speech paid by a domestic principle?
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:49 pmApparently you’ve never heard of agents working without official cover, Dave
crazy (d99a88) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:51 pmWe call them nocs they call them illegals (that’s what the Americans are about) very o’doul.
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:53 pmI gave you a link to the FAQ. Pretty sad that you’re too lazy to click the link.
The third item (“ARE FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS THE ONLY FOREIGN PRINCIPALS?”) says:
No. The term also includes foreign political parties, a person or organization outside the United States, except U.S. citizens, and any entity organized under the laws of a foreign country or having its principal place of business in a foreign country.
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:53 pmcrazy: thoughtful comments. Thanks.
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:53 pmYou know what would really be helpful? If Mueller would keep me company while I shop on Craig’s list.
Because sometimes those “people are not always who they appear to be.”
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 12:11 pm
Mueller, impartial prosecutor, should be indicted for identity theft.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:54 pmYou mean like the way Disney deepsixed road to 9/11,
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:55 pmdave 102:
Thanks.
That would seem to say foreign INDIVIDUALS are principals. So could commenting on FREEP or DU be charged against unregistered foreigners?
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:57 pmWe already do. They’re called “campaign finance laws”.
The constitutional limits of such laws were most recently tested in the Citizens United case.
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:57 pmI guess its materva
http://dailycaller.com/2018/02/16/mueller-indicts-13-russians
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 1:59 pmIf we don’t hang together we’ll hang separately
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:28 am
Stay on your side of the gibbet.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:04 pmReally rex?
https://mobile.twitter.com/omriceren/status/964593310194176000?p=v
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:05 pmFWIW, the coordinated nature of the group (funding and working together) is a little significant. Not just Canadians individually posting on DU or twitter without registering. Trying to be fair…
I do agree with crazie’s comments though that this presumably has happened in some fashion for decades (and we do the same overseas). Unless there is clear evidence of something massive that cost Hill her #turn, seems like a lot of horsepower for some thin gruel.
Also, the misuse of power (unmasking, FISA warrant not showing DNC payments, Nellie/Bruce Ohr connection from paid agents of DNC to FBI [passing information], failure to disclose Brady information to Flynn until recently, etc.) needs to be followed up on.
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:08 pmlol here’s the National Soros Radio teaser
A BROAD INFORMATION WAR!
oh sweet precious monkeys
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:09 pmAn Information War fought by DOJ with indictments is beyond foolish and not a decision that should be made by DOJ
crazy (d99a88) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:14 pmSic semper tyrannis.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:18 pmRight.
The beneficiary of the foreign information war would be in a much better position to decide whether to keep it quiet.
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:19 pmWell John Kerry has been furthering Russian objectives since 1969
https://mobile.twitter.com/PoliticalShort/status/964585301933879296?p=v
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:20 pmYes, it’s the Secretary of State’s job to personally review every tourist visa application.
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:24 pmCrazy:
I remember as an aide in early 90s in [a CINC] listening to top O-10 and my O-8 shooting the shit. At one point they talked politics and speculated that the Chinese helped get Clinton elected. Whether or not Chinese tried to influence election, I would not approve of some big public hubbub to get into that (and try to push meme that President is not rightfully President). And I voted for GHWB.
Oh well, maybe we can morph this into obstruction of justice charges next. After all we seem to have morphed a different counterintel FISA into criminal investigations (rather obviously, lower hurdle for ocunterlintel wiretapping).
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:25 pmThe beneficiary of the foreign information war would be in a much better position to decide whether to keep it quiet.
That’s a wonderful synopsis of the Comey/Obama/Rice January 5 meeting. Deep state logic on full display.
random viking (6a54c2) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:29 pmRe: timing of announcement on indictments:
“PARKLAND, Fla. – Gov. Rick Scott called on the FBI director to resign Friday after the bureau admitted that it failed to investigate a tip in January about the Parkland school shooting suspect.
“The FBI’s failure to take action against this killer is unacceptable,” Scott said in a statement. “The FBI has admitted that they were contacted last month by a person who called to inform them of Cruz’s ‘desire to kill people,’ and ‘the potential of him conducting a school shooting.’ “
harkin (8256c3) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:30 pmBreaking News:
Indicted Russians to roll over on Trump. Indictment of Trump imminent.
AZ Bob (f60c80) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:34 pmRemember that guy Norman Hsu?
Here reacquaint yourself. https://patterico.com/2007/09/04/dont-tell-me-the-dems-to-fear-the-norman-hsu-affair/
Tim Russert interviewing representatives of front runner (for the Dem nomination) Hillary Clinton in 2007 about the impact of the Norman Hsu affair.
Shortly later, Hillary Clinton dissavowed Norman, avoiding the topic herself, opting instead to have Bill Clinton do her fielding of questions. “You could have knocked me over with a straw”, said Bill.
Democrat rival Barack Obama (who never received very much money from Hsu) said, “Despite it all, I still love the guy, despite everything you read, every experience I ever had with him was nothing but delightful, and I just scratch my head.”
lol.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:35 pmAccording to paragraph 11(b) of the indictment, by September 2016, the Organization’s monthly budget was “over [$]1,250,000 U.S. dollars.”
For purposes of scale and comparison — simply to gauge what kind of bucks were being spent, from which we might begin to make assumptions about the bang those bucks got — and leaving aside all PACs and national party organizations (RNC, DNC) entirely: The Clinton campaign’s monthly expenditures in Sep 2016 were $82.6M, and Trump’s were $70.2M. The national organizations and PACs of course poured in hundreds of millions more per month for or against each of the major parties’ presidential nominees. So while $1.25M/month ain’t chump change, it’s also not remotely “big league.”
Likewise, the Organization is alleged to have set up “hundreds” of fake social media operations, with a few “hundreds of thousands” of “followers.” Color me not very impressed. Almost all of those people who’d clicked “Like” or “Follow” surely did so because they were already partisans in agreement with the sentiments expressed. One must not presume that number is a proxy for, or even roughly correlates to, “changed votes.” But even if one jumped to that unjustifiable conclusion, that still wouldn’t undercut the validity of the election, unless the Ruskies were just smart enough to change votes in the handful of swing states that gave Trump his victory.
So the bottom line is that this indictment describes very provocative misconduct by some Russians. Perhaps Putin is an unindicted co-conspirator. But regardless, the misconduct alleged in this indictment wasn’t very effective or consequential misconduct, and under no stretch of the imagination of anyone sane could it have been outcome-determinative in the Electoral College — which, after all, is what ultimately counted.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:35 pmDerp,Derp State?
You guys must have regenerated your Surveillance organ after 10 years or more of disuse.
Is the word shame in your Lexicon?
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:36 pmReading now that the “unwitting campaign official” was a NY volunteer, not paid, who gave some lawn signs away!
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:39 pmHow much effect do you reckon the Watergate break-in had on the 1972 electoral college outcome?
Dave (445e97) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:40 pmTim Russert died of a heart attack a week after Hillary Clinton conceded the Democrat nomination to Obama – hey, more connection than anything Bob Mueller has come up with.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:42 pm@ AZ Bob (#120): I’m confused. Your supposed breaking news is linked to something from Feb 2, and which doesn’t say anything about Russians “flipping,” which (given that none of these defendants are in custody, anywhere) seems unlikely. Are you being snarky, and I’m just being dim or overly literal?
Apparently Mueller’s team came across — and has already secured a guilty plea — from a California man who sold bank account numbers abroad. But if he’d been in knowing cooperation with these defendants while also knowing they were agents of a foreign power, Russia, neither the indictment nor Rosenstein’s press conference statements could have read they way they do. Apparently, then, he was an American criminal who wasn’t intending to obstruct government operations, but just a garden-variety criminal at most.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:42 pmHaha, yes. Mueller learned about Spring Campaigning in military class 101. His indicting of 13 Russian screen names that will never likely fall under US jurisdiction again is like deer hunting with White Phosphorus.
If I were Gary Trudeau I would hang than on him in a second. It’s a decent name for him. Lots of smoke. Sows confusion and just as likely to harm friend as foe.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:43 pmThree Biggies.
https://www.washingtonpost.com
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:46 pmSic semper tyrannis.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:18 pm
Octavian did some pretty good infrastructure programs. Hey, wasn’t he dictator for life? Dictator Till The Rapture Mike Pence. I like it.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:47 pmTrumps Swan Song
https://g.co/kgs/AzDcYw
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:47 pmBeldar:
Also, that budget was not dedicated to US only but included operations in Russia, EU, etc.
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:48 pm@ Dave (#125): None, but I don’t see that as a relevant comparison yet, unless and until Trump is proved to have done something comparable to what Nixon did in Watergate. As much as I dislike the man, I haven’t seen that yet. If there’s a more relevant comparison, it wouldn’t be Watergate, but rather 1968 contacts between the Nixon campaign and the South Vietnamese government, but that isn’t in any way connected to what ultimately drove Nixon from office.
As I wrote above, this indictment doesn’t seem to address — and certainly doesn’t rule out — the possibility of Mueller seeking further criminal indictments, including from “process crimes,” and the press is full of leaks and gossip about Mueller having turned Gates to testify against Manafort. This doesn’t rule out the possibility of Trump being accused by Mueller of something connected to that, presumably some sort of obstruction charge. Nor does it rule out the possibility of someone close to Trump (e.g., Jared or Donnie Jr.) being charged, which might trigger a reaction from Trump that creates jeopardy where none previously existed as to him personally. To the extent Trump is claiming this exonerates him from all potential problems, he’s overplaying his hand (again).
Nevertheless, I think this is, overall, very good news for him.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:50 pmWhy is Rick Scott asking for Wray to resign? Does he really expect the head of the FBI to personally act on every tip? Or even for every tip to be effective? Does he live in some world of perfect safety and certainty?
Now, sure I bet there is a lot of featherbedding and pension earning and donut eating going on in the FBI. But that’s a different topic regardless of some big news story of the day from a school shooting.
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:51 pmHe seems to be smacking the computer with a rolled up newspaper. Could there be frothing involved?
I so hope Ben is frothing.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:56 pmI have a post about the indictments coming in an hour. If you want to read it now, the RedState version is up.
The focus is not on Trump so much as Yevgeny Prigozhin and his ties to Putin. These indictments (as I said earlier) seem anodyne as they relate to “collusion” — but they certainly tend to show the involvement of the Kremlin. That involvement is not expressly alleged in the indictment, but once you know more about Prigozhin, the picture becomes clear.
I also make another push in the new post for people to take a look at the Deripaska/Manafort connection mentioned in this post. I understand why this has been completely overlooked in this comments section, given the issuance of today’s indictments — but I think that connection is actually bigger news on the “collusion” front than today’s indictments. The Deripaska angle is not really damning as it relates to Trump himself directly, but certainly as it relates to his one-time campaign manager.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:56 pmI am entirely unsurprised that Rosenstein gave this press conference without Mueller even being in the room at the time.
I am entirely unsurprised that Rosenstein’s format — right down to the ritual (but yes, important) reminders that everyone (even a scheming Rooskie) is entitled to a presumption of innocence, and that the government will have to prove each element of each of these crimes beyond a reasonable doubt as to each defendant — was indistinguishable from what any U.S. Attorney or AUSA would use in announcing any high-publicity case.
This was, in other words, nothing like Comey’s declination/reopening announcements about Hillary and her emails, and nothing like the kinds of press conference show-boating that independent counsel of the prior millenium engaged in. This was a very reassuring performance by Rosenstein IMHO.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:58 pmI agree. If people are looking for evidence that the Russians swung the election by creating online trolls, this ain’t it. But did any sane person ever actually think that?
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:01 pmHillary pretended to.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:02 pmObjection, nonresponsive.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:03 pmGood job Herr Mueller. You indicted 13 Reubens with a side of Russian Horseradish.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:04 pmWhatever, Qatar which gives sanctuary to hamas and the five taliban commanders that sponsors the likes of bel hadj in Libya and nusra in Syria has spent 15 million only with one think tank, brooking among others
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:04 pmYes. The Democrat media are provided official cover to act sane once more.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:05 pmI so hope Ben is frothing.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:56 pm
Nah I think the tide is out right now.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:06 pmAre you being snarky, and I’m just being dim or overly literal? — Beldar
I am being silly but we have been told the Mueller commonly goes after the little fish to roll over on the big ones. So there is a little truth in it too.
AZ Bob (f60c80) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:07 pmI didn’t hear if any of the Russians are still on US soil.
AZ Bob (f60c80) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:08 pmI’ll stipulate that Hillary’s grasp on reality is shaky.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:08 pmBlack Swan Song
Black Panther Tanks
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:11 pm142 nice borscht
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:12 pmPatterico,
I asked, in comments, for some explanation of the cheesecake video and relation to collusion (if that is what you mean). I am not enough in the weeds to even understand what the hmmm is about. Can you just give a simple statement (not trying to trip you up, honestly don’t even know what tripped your radar…Trump thing or Nuland or what?) At least knowing the thesis might help me to struggle through a 25 minute subtitled storyline type exposition.
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:13 pmIt might be worth a post breaking it all down, but can we start with what I have already written?
The essence of it is right there, and you don’t have to watch a second of video. Can you be more clear about what is opaque about that explanation?
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:17 pmGen. Rosenstein: Pop smoke Col. Mueller, I’m covering your Division’s retreat.
Col Mueller: They’ve all been demoted or transferred.
You might say…I have no division.
Yeeeeeeaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:18 pmI hate to pile on the scrum but..
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/trump-mcdougal-playboy-model.html?referer=
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:20 pmDeripasha made a billion on the London exchange, veselberg who bet both on Hillary and nick denton, prokhorov did the former,
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:21 pmIf you are refering to the Black Panther movie tanking, that would be a shame.
I remember buying Black Panther comics (if there were no new Spiderman or Xmen on the shelf) back before it was deemed barrier breaking.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:22 pmTrump is still repeating his idiocy in belated confusion…no colluding
Next upmental competence hearing
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:23 pmHey Mullah Boi. You ga’ five dollah’ I give you 10 nice Facebook posts, you like? Me so retweet, me like you long time!
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:24 pmWhat day is it Mr. Presidunce?
What year?
Who is teh President?
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:25 pm1 P, 139 and 141:
It’s cute, P, but obviously lots did believe it, want to believe it, and still believe it (even seeing this as proof). “A man hears what he wants to hear” Paul Simon. (I see the same on my, conservative, side at times. It is human nature.)
Also, the belief in this issue may have been (or still be) related to warrants and investigation of a candidate and President.
2. It does seem like there is a lot of narrative and “report” in the indictment. And those indicted are not in custody and would be charged and have elements proved of a specific crime, not the long motive narrative.
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/rule-of-law/mueller-creates-his-own-conspiracy/
Anonymous (ea5569) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:29 pmHey Mullah Boi, 20 dollah month I cook I iron clothes I fleep on Trump. You like?
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:30 pmIt was very considerate of Cruz to choose Florida. It’s more convenient from Mira Lago.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:34 pmWhen the bad guys try to escape the good guys in pursuit and dash down a blind alley, they always tip over a few garbage cans in retreat before they surrender to fate or do the big shoot out.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:34 pmHey Mullah Boi, 130,000 dollah I build time machine and keel Hitlah, you like?
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:35 pmthese indictments just make me love President Trump even more
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:35 pmDuplicate Post
It looks like you’ve already said that!
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:37 pmHe can be back by 7 pm to choke on his choco-cake hole.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:37 pmSo the bottom line is that this indictment describes very provocative misconduct by some Russians. Perhaps Putin is an unindicted co-conspirator. But regardless, the misconduct alleged in this indictment wasn’t very effective or consequential misconduct, and under no stretch of the imagination of anyone sane could it have been outcome-determinative in the Electoral College — which, after all, is what ultimately counted.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/16/2018 @ 2:35 pm
In West Texas terms it may have just been drilling test wells. I don’t think that field is proven and likely it’s going to be capped and abandoned.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:43 pmI’m a bit of a dissenter on the basis for this indictment being issued, but lack time to explain. Will have to wait for later.
My problem is laying out a “public” case in a “speaking indictment” under circumstances where there is zero chance that any individual named in the indictment will ever be arrested and prosecuted.
This indictment is more about making a “public case” than it is about actually putting people in jail.
I don’t find that to be an appropriate basis upon which to file an unsealed charging document.
If there was really an intention to prosecute, then the indictment would have been returned under seal, and efforts would have been explored to “lure” the defendants to location where extradition following arrest might be possible.
If Mueller simply wanted to get this information into the public’s view, DOJ regulations allow him to file a public report. The allegations could have been laid out while the identities of the potential defendants remained hidden.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:44 pmP:
I don’t understand the part in the para before: Pridhoko and the how they got him (of what)?
Let me try restating it. This will force me to think a little (and you to engage).
Pridhoko is some Russian official [I think I watched enough of the video to tell that]). And they found him doing something amazingly bad [not sure if that was hookers or bribes or what…something shocking though.]
Then Deripskaya is an oligarch who bribed or gave lots of gifts to Pridhoko. And video shows that.
Then there is the Manifort stuff [but not clear if that is from the video or you are connecting some previous info that those who stew in this stuff are up on?]. And Manifort was trying to shmooze Deripskaya that he could liase with the campaign or share info or pass favors or something (whatever these favor traders do).
So it shows Deripskaya likes to give gifts to politicans for favors.
Then there is some media stuff where media tried to find a connection but YT video guy disagrees and thinks reporter is silly. But not clear if you are saying “hmmm” you think YT guy is wrong or if you agree with him. Sorry. That part is too hmmm-y for me.]
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How did I do?
Anonymous (ea5569) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:45 pmMoses and the Hebrewites think they are unwitting, My Father.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:45 pmI think Mueller has shown, and continues to demonstrate his acumen and bona fides and have no doubt the grammarians will nibble like pilot fish on any parasites from without as though the corruption was inside.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:48 pmThe Russians got away before the FBI could interrogate them in a hotel. I mean execute.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:49 pmStep aside Moses and I will destroy these whiners from before you and raise up Abraham’s Seed from these stones
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:50 pm[paraphrased]
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:50 pmStunning indictments? Should have buried that lede in an unmarked grave. Not going to read, Ben, thank you very much.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:54 pmIn West Texas terms it may have just been drilling test wells. I don’t think that field is proven and likely it’s going to be capped and abandoned.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:43 pm
In California we call that a big bun, or a very big bun; a big fluffy bun. [I don’t think anybody is back there.]
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:54 pmWhy would deripasha have to bribe pridokhno, if he was that close to putin, the reality is he wasnt.In fact he is probably an embarassmemt as he brought too much attention
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:54 pmI read your Redstate piece, P. Not sure if it is all correct inference but makes a lot of sense. AND was easy to understand with minimal hmmm factor for dumb sailors like me (I?).
Anonymous (ea5569) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:55 pmI remember buying Black Panther comics (if there were no new Spiderman or Xmen on the shelf) back before it was deemed barrier breaking.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 3:22 pm
So you kept poor black children from reading Black Panther [The Narrative]?
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:01 pm25 million, seems a bit on the low side for a Thursday preview,
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:02 pmFor all we know those Russians could be remaking The Piano in Switzerland right now.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:04 pmI guess I don’t want to deprive a poor black child of viewing the possiblity that they too could someday not grow up to be a superhero. – consider me woke.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:04 pmAs Linus says of The Brothers Karamozov, at a certain point I just bleep through the names.
Pinandpuller (4d8c18) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:06 pmThen I’ll quote it here for anyone else confused by what the video shows:
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:17 pmAlthough I am quoting a later post in my last comment, it is a description of what is shown in this post. And I’d love some feedback on this, because it seems significant to me. But nobody will talk about it.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:18 pmNavalny even has a Bill Hader popcorn meme going at one point. I really thought the video was entertaining.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:19 pmBut nobody will talk about it.
What exactly is your major malfunction?
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:20 pmWhat’s yours? I tend to skip over your comments as there are too many of them with too little substance, but I made the mistake of looking at every one of them in this thread after you left that comment and I don’t see you talking about it either. So why the attitude?
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:32 pmP, take a look at 170. I tried to play the tape back to force myself to identify your point. Did I get it?
Anonymous (ea5569) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:36 pmMaybe if you gave me an example of what you find substantial I could tailor them.
Please give me an example of where you have found me both insubstantial as well as incorrect to make it fair and all.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:39 pmI thought narciso’s point was compelling.
Why would deripasha have to bribe pridokhno, if he was that close to putin, the reality is he wasnt.In fact he is probably an embarrassment as he brought too much attention
Expanding from that, if Putin found it in the Russian interest to back Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump, why would Paul Maniford need an oligarch intermediary to bribe a cabinet minister for access?
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:39 pmYour disdain for me is ok. It’s a personality thing. But don’t disrespect or misrepresent the actual factual basis of my posts. It is unseemly for you.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 5:00 pmI listened to Rosenstein’s presser and it seemed like he made it clear that any interaction with Americans was with “unwitting” Americans.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 2/16/2018 @ 5:01 pmBeenburned is a legend in his own mind, lol… what a putz.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 2/16/2018 @ 5:03 pmTrumpkins don’t want nobody to say nothing about no Russians messing in no election because the question remains whether Trump colluded with it. They want everybody to say: “Russians? What Russians? There’s no such thing as Russians!” And for people who don’t buy that, “No Russian did nothing wrong, so shut up!”
nk (dbc370) — 2/16/2018 @ 5:04 pmNo the question doesn’t remain, in fact its quite clear who did what favors in terns on resource extraction, curtailing of missile defense, paying a deaf ear to Poland, when there entire cabinet was decapitated.
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 5:07 pmMaybe if you gave me an example of what you find substantial I could tailor them.
Please give me an example of where you have found me both insubstantial as well as incorrect to make it fair and all.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:39 pm
You’re the Hopscotch square with the rock in it.
Pinandpuller (a68744) — 2/16/2018 @ 5:17 pmMaybe if you gave me an example of what you find substantial I could tailor them.
Please give me an example of where you have found me both insubstantial as well as incorrect to make it fair and all.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:39 pm
Pretty sure you have to pay the piper before you call the tune.
Pinandpuller (a68744) — 2/16/2018 @ 5:23 pmI think Prikhodko is clearly close to Putin; the video makes that clear. Oligarchs like Deripaska have to bribe a lot of people in Putin’s government.
Who says that was the reason Prikhodko was bribed? It strikes me as likely that Manafort used Deripaska as an intermediary but that doesn’t mean Deripaska had to bribe Prikhodko to accomplish that.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 6:40 pmNot really.
Prikhodko is a high-level Kremlin official, close to Putin and responsible for a lot of Russian foreign policy. He has been around a while.
Deripaska, but yes.
The link is in the post. I didn’t know about the Manafort stuff until I watched the video. Funny how the Streisand effect works. But there is a WaPo link to the story about Manafort’s email offering to brief Deripaska on the 2016 election, right around the time Trump was accepting the GOP nomination.
Manafort was offering to brief Deripaska on the 2016 presidential election. Privately. CNN asked him if Deripaska was serving as a conduit to Putin. But Deripaska’s connections to the Kremlin were less clearly direct at the time, at least according to Navalny.
That is part of what it shows.
Again: when CNN was asking the questions of Deripaska, his connections to the Kremlin were not as clear. Now, with Navalny’s investigation (which Facebook is helping Putin discard evidence of), there is a more direct link between Manafort and the Kremlin, through Deripaska and Prikhodko.
You might want to work on your spelling of these names… I don’t mean to be a spelling scold, but the names are in the post and spelled correctly.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 6:47 pmLike this?
I told you yesterday: I woke up to find eight of the ten comments in recent comments to be yours. They weren’t all gold. I’m just saying.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 6:49 pmAn oligarchy that has hidden evidence about Obama and Allison for 10-12 years what would you canal that?
http://dailycaller.com/2018/02/16/keith-ellison-louis-farrakhan-meeting
narciso (d1f714) — 2/16/2018 @ 7:02 pm201.
Not to be all peel me a grape but maybe if you indicated minutes of the video where certain things were said that connect to your points, it would be helpful. I watched 10 minutes of that thing and was still not getting to the payoff.
I know you think you wrote it super clear and you get it. But something about the piece was opaque. Was not engaging with people and it was a struggle for me to get your point(s) also.
Like I’m still not sure (unless I read 25 minutes of subtitles if Manafort is discussed IN THIS VIDEO or if you are just noting the same oligarch and seeing him involved in a couple different schemes.) I know you LINK to a different source talking about Manafort but is he also in this video? I just can’t tell from how you talk about it.
I’m also not sure how the video connects the Kremlin to D guy. (I’m not saying he isn’t. Not saying the video doesn’t connect them. But you just don’t say X and Y in the video show a strong connection.)
And what’s the Victoria Nuland connection (main point of Russian there and what you personally think of it?
Anonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 7:34 pmThe stuff about Manafort comes at the end.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 10:45 pmYour hint that the stuff we’re talking about here came at the end of the video would have been the part of the post where it says “The video ends by reminding us…” That’s a clue that the stuff I’m talking about won’t be found in the first ten minutes.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 10:47 pmSorry I don’t mean to be catty but I feel like I am repeating a lot of stuff I already wrote.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 10:49 pmI’m gonna ask my buddy from facebook why he works for a commie lover
mg (47ca93) — 2/16/2018 @ 11:24 pmWatching some of the olympics and all I know is NBC stands for Never Bash Communism
mg (47ca93) — 2/17/2018 @ 12:37 amAnonymous (d41cee) — 2/16/2018 @ 7:34 pm
Pttin blames Victoria Nuland for the Euromaidan Revolution (or Revolution of Dignity; Ukrainian: Революція гідності, Revoliutsiia hidnosti) which toppled the government of Ukraine in February 20145, and thinks that Victoria Nuland was one of Hillary’s women.
Russian spies had caught her on tape:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 2/21/2018 @ 12:03 pmPatterico (115b1f) — 2/16/2018 @ 4:17 pm
The missing link is who persuaded Trump to hire Manafort, and how.
Anotehr person acting on behalf of Russia?
Manafort was probably not an a out-and-out agent of the Kremlin. But he was maybe the best they could get.
This is a story of Russian penetration, or attempted penetration of the Trump campaign, not collusion, although Trump had been trying to do deals in Russia for years, (and got almost nowhere, The big exception was the 2013 Miss Universe pageant, probably because Trmp could help someone;s singing career.)
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 2/21/2018 @ 12:09 pm