Patterico's Pontifications

1/22/2018

Campus Insanity: Princeton Tells Men to Repeatedly Ask for Consent…On the Dance Floor

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:00 am



You thought campuses were going crazy when California enacted its “affirmative consent bill” that requires couples to give one another explicit affirmative ongoing consent for sexual activity? (“Yes, it’s still OK; yes, it’s still OK; yes, it’s still OK…”) You hadn’t seen anything yet! Now Princeton is telling students that ongoing affirmative consent is also necessary … to dance:

Campus Reform has the backstory:

Princeton University wants to ensure that students know how to ask each other to dance, and so recently issued instructions for obtaining “consent on the dance floor.”

The guidelines came in the form of a Facebook post shared by Princeton’s Sexual Harassment/Assault Advising, Resources, & Education (SHARE) office and created by the school’s UMatter initiative in anticipation of the annual Orange and Black Ball (OBB) that took place last Friday.

“Hey, are you still into this? We can stop if you aren’t.”

“Going to OBB this Friday? Planning to have a great time tearing up the dance floor with your friends?” the post asks. “Great! Check out some tips about what consent on the dance floor looks like!! #OBB #RespectMatters #ConsentIsCool #DoYouWannaDance?”

The post indicates that “Do you wanna dance?” is an appropriate opening, and that responses such as “Absolutely!,” “Yeah! Let’s do it!,” and “I’d love to!” are all ways of consenting to the question.

Beyond simply “asking & waiting for an answer,” the post also asserts that “frequently checking in with your dance partner” is required in order to maintain consent until the music stops, suggesting that the person who extended the invite periodically ask “Hey, are you still into this?” and volunteer that “We can stop if you aren’t.”

Although the story is from November, we haven’t talked about it here, and there are parallels between this story and the recent Aziz Ansari controversy. Both illustrate the lack of common sense that is increasingly absent in the debate over the nature of ongoing consent.

You have the right to begin dancing with a guy and then to change your mind. However, signaling that you have changed your mind typically requires you to either say something clear, or to stop dancing and walk off the floor. Continuing to dance, while sending overly subtle nonverbal cues that you’re just not into it, may not send a clear enough message that you have withdrawn consent. If you can later complain of assault because the guy continued to dance with you, despite your indirect and understated signals that you weren’t enjoying it that much, normal people will not take your complaint seriously.

By the same token, if you accompany a man back to his place after a date, you have the right to begin to get physical with him and then change your mind. However, if you get undressed with him, accept oral sex from him and perform oral sex on him, you have already sent several nonverbal cues that you are interested in sex. Therefore, any nonverbal signals to the contrary have to be stronger than they otherwise would be, in order to overcome the clear cues that you have already sent.

Put more simply, you can always say no — but if you say it with his d[vowel deleted]ck voluntarily inside your mouth, he’s going to have a harder time understanding you.

All of this used to fall under the category of what we called “common sense.” But we’ve now reached a point where we have to pretend that long-held societal norms don’t apply any more. We have to act as if every woman is presumptively appalled at this precise moment by what she seemed to be enjoying five seconds ago, whether she tells us or not.

I take very seriously the notion that women have an absolute right to consent or not consent to anything at all. I take very seriously the notion that they can change their minds at any point. But if they want society to continue to take this right seriously, we all have to recognize that the need for clarity in cues changes with the situation and with past behavior.

[Cross-posted at RedState.]

67 Responses to “Campus Insanity: Princeton Tells Men to Repeatedly Ask for Consent…On the Dance Floor”

  1. At what point does the lest stop being funny and start being dangerous?

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  2. *left*

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  3. It’s a woman’s prerogative to change her mind, but not the Rules.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  4. Jesus f*****g Christ. Are they serious. Pretty soon the women at college dances will be complaining that they have to Dane with each other. “Men don’t come to the dances. What’s wrong with them?”

    Thud Muffle (5a4596)

  5. dance not Dane. Thanks autocorrect.

    Thud Muffle (5a4596)

  6. Ah, the Western culture we need to defend from the dark hordes!

    nk (dbc370)

  7. Teh Hoagie exemption

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  8. OK. Schoomer agreed to pay for the Wall over 7 years but will future Dem majorities agree? Heh. It might be like Trumps promise to Dreamers..

    I’m sorry. It’s unenforceable

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  9. Honestly, with over seven billion people in the world, I approve of this policy. People, male or female, who conform to it, should avoid any activity which might lead to them reproducing themselves.

    nk (dbc370)

  10. dance rape isn’t funny

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  11. Seems pretty sexist to assume only men can ask women to dance. What if a woman asks a man? Or a man asks another man? Or a non binary genderqueer amorphous blob asks the table to dance? Don’t be so heteronormative.

    Edoc166 (9ba20d)

  12. Every day the it is becoming more important to stay as far away from women as you can manage. This includes hiring them, inviting them to parties, talking to them, being in the same room as them, etc.
    They are just too fragile to continue life as we know it and may break and will take you down when they do.

    David Longfellow (8cba7a)

  13. So today’s feminist women are fierce, strong, unashamed, loud & proud and all the other terms now being applied to the man-haters but you must treat them like someone with the mind of a child or you’re crossing their gender comfort boundary?

    No wonder less and less women identify with these miserable harpies.

    harkin (8256c3)

  14. Seems pretty sexist to assume only men can ask women to dance. What if a woman asks a man?

    Way back in the dark ages (late 70s/80s) girls very often would just grab you by the hand and pull you out on the dance floor. I thought it was a turn on but now I realize it was the first step to (sometimes) being raped. They were using their atractiveness, sultry moves and guile to lure me into satisfying their own sexual gratification…..god bless them.

    harkin (8256c3)

  15. Harkin is a slut. He got what he deserved.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  16. With apologies to Paul Anka:
    ———————————-

    Put your head on my shoulder [whoa-oh-whoa-oh],

    That is, if you are fully consenting to that level of intimacy.

    Hold me in your arms, baby

    But let me know if at any time you start to feel uncomfortable.

    Squeeze me oh-so tight,

    But not so tight as to be construed as crossing a demarcation line of consent.

    Show me that you love me too.

    Though this is not to imply that I am expecting any sort of sexual favor that is not freely and clearly granted.

    Put your lips next to mine, dear [whoa-oh-whoa-whoa]

    Again, only if you are truly comfortable in doing so.

    Won’t you kiss me once?

    Just a kiss tonight, maybe

    I apologize profusely for bullying you into compliance by asking repeatedly. I’ll go ahead and self-report to campus authorities.

    You and I will fall in love.

    That is, if you could ever fall for a guy who is about to be expelled.

    JVW (42615e)

  17. Where I went to school, dancing was forbidden – it was viewed as too sexually provocative. So there you have the opposite extremes.

    Tillman (a95660)

  18. Two prominent Republicans in frequent contact with the White House told me that Trump has discussed choosing Kelly’s successor in recent days, asking a close friend what he thought about David Urban, a veteran Washington lobbyist and political operative who helped engineer Trump’s victory in Pennsylvania. Ivanka is also playing a central role in the search, quietly field-testing ideas with people. “Ivanka is the most worried about it. She’s trying to figure who replaces Kelly,” a person who’s spoken with her said.

    Kelly’s departure likely isn’t imminent, sources said. “He wants to stay longer than Reince [Priebus],” an outside adviser said. Trump can also hardly afford another high-level staff departure, which would trigger days of negative news cycles. “This could be like [Jeff] Sessions,” one of the Republicans explained, referring to Trump’s festering frustration about not being able to replace his attorney general.

    But the prospect of a Trump-Kelly rupture became more probable as news of their clashes over immigration leaked. Last week, Kelly reportedly infuriated Trump when he told Fox News that Trump had “evolved” on his position to build a southern border wall. Kelly further catalyzed Trump’s ire when he told Democratic lawmakers that Trump was “uninformed” when he made his campaign promise to build the wall. The next morning Trump rebutted his chief of staff with a tweet: “The Wall is the Wall, it has never changed or evolved from the first day I conceived of it.”

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/01/are-trump-and-kelly-heading-for-divorce

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  19. Personal, petit bourgeois, and self-indulgent?

    nk (dbc370)

  20. Senate reaches deal to end government shutdown; Cruz reaffirms to America he remains wholly unlikable in Senate basement banter w/media.

    “Ha-ha-ha! Hello, boys! I’m BAAAAAACK!” Russel Casse [Randy Quai] ‘Independence Day’ 1996

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  21. Paul Anka? Really JVW?

    Dave (28ff86)

  22. Honestly, with over seven billion people in the world, I approve of this policy. People, male or female, who conform to it, should avoid any activity which might lead to them reproducing themselves.

    I dunno, you think maybe the Muslims are onto something with the whole burka thing?

    Dave (28ff86)

  23. Ben Shapiro
    @benshapiro
    Democrats: Give us executive amnesty or we’ll shut down the government!
    Republicans: No. Fund the government.
    Democrats: NO!
    Republicans: YES.
    Democrats: Okay fine.
    Well done, Chuck.”
    —-

    “Matt Viser
    @mviser
    Democrats have managed to accede to Republican demands, demoralize their energized base, give a disengaged president a win, and look like they held a meaningless three day government shutdown — all at once.”
    —-

    “Guy Benson
    @guypbenson
    Shorter Schumer: My base may accept our defeat on my shutdown if I dump on Trump enough in this speech.”

    harkin (8256c3)

  24. The vote was 81-18.

    Rand Paul and Mike Lee voted no.

    Dave (28ff86)

  25. signaling that you have changed your mind typically requires you to either say something clear

    But women can’t be expected to speak up in situations like this! They are so shy and weak compared to men.

    Wait…

    Patricia (c255c4)

  26. Burkas are the ultimate expression of equality between women, putting the esthetically under-privileged on the same level as the privileged. Not to mention that more half the women in the recent Women’s March would have looked better in them. When I rule the world, leggings and tight jeans above size 12 will be illegal.

    nk (dbc370)

  27. Back in the misty past, like 1965, this was all sorted out. Each sex had certain rights and certain obligations. Then we blew it all up. Now, to hear it told, this was a cynical act perpetrated by the patriarchy.

    Burning the bra, which never quite worked out (and the girdle, which did). Women entering the “normal” workplace in droves, as opposed to “lady’s jobs” (e.g. secretary, hairdresser, interior decorator, cosmetics sales). Co-ed dorms (what could go wrong?). Women putting a profession before marriage and kids. The death of the MRS degree.

    Now it was all wrong, and women are helpless creatures who have to be protected from the depredations of unreconstructed men.

    Once upon the time the complaint was that women had to act like men to get ahead in the world. Otherwise women were supposed to be home cooking and minding the kids. They rebelled against this narrow gender stereotyping, wanting to remain women in the wider world. Joanna Russ’ widely-read SF novel “The Female Man” describes how one feminist saw the world of 1970.

    Now the overt demand is that men need to act like women. Any regime that insists that men and women are wired alike, or that one wiring needs to be overcome, is a regime doomed to failure.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  28. @7

    Hoagie, does your clever maymay take into account that we’ve been at war in Afghanistan since 2001?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  29. Dance floor consent, done right.

    Dave (28ff86)

  30. ere I went to school, dancing was forbidden – it was viewed as too sexually provocative. So there you have the opposite extremes.

    Tillman (a95660) — 1/22/2018 @ 10:39 am

    So you went to school in a movie called Footloose instead of in real life. That explains many of your political positions.

    NJRob (b00189)

  31. “Men don’t come to the dances. What’s wrong with them?”

    No booze?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  32. So you went to school in a movie called Footloose instead of in real life. That explains many of your political positions.

    No, he probably went to Ambassador College.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  33. Hoagie, does your clever maymay take into account that we’ve been at war in Afghanistan since 2001?
    Davethulhu (fab944) — 1/22/2018 @ 11:02 am


    Why yes, yes it does. Do you fail to understand the post? I suggest you go to your safe space and think about it.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  34. No, I don’t think it does. Unless you’re saying that there are no 18 year olds in Afghanistan.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  35. NJRob , that’s correct. I attended a far-right Christian school that had little resemblance to reality.

    Tillman (a95660)

  36. “Now the overt demand is that men need to act like women. Any regime that insists that men and women are wired alike, or that one wiring needs to be overcome, is a regime doomed to failure.”

    – Kevin M

    The “overt demand” is that men need to act like decent human beings, with a modicum of respect for other people’s personal space, personal preferences, and personal agency. You know: the building blocks of classical liberalism.

    People on this thread are talking about asking someone to dance (vs. just dancing up on them like Night at the Roxbury) like its the death knell for Western Civilization. Do you know how silly that looks?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  37. Princeton.
    Eating Clubs.
    ‘Nuff said.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  38. 37.No, I don’t think it does. Unless you’re saying that there are no 18 year olds in Afghanistan.
    Davethulhu (fab944) — 1/22/2018 @ 11:25 am


    That’s okay, Davethulhu. I really don’t expect you to acknowledge anything that would contradict your preconceived ideas, let alone grasp the symbolism The picture speaks for itself, it’s you who are deaf.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  39. No, it’s just a dumb, millennial bashing maymay.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  40. 39,that’s fighting words on this site. Though this is a situation where being “Raffi” Cruz might garner a warning instead of an infraction.

    urbanleftbehind (e029d3)

  41. Leviticus, it’s not that asking someone to dance is the death knell for Western Civilization. It’s that again and again children attending universities – and clearly these are children – seem to be incapable of managing their own affairs and seem to be incapable of exposure to ideas or experiences contrary to their worldview. They seem to melt or breakdown when exposed to an idea or experience that does not support their worldview. This is the description of the snowflakes. And yes, when western literature is banned because it contains ideas to which a pampered child has not been exposed it is a problem. When riots prevent speeches from conservatives because speech is violence that is a problem. When a girl gets drunk and goes home with a boy and behaves in ways she regrets the next day, you can call that a lot of things but rape is not one of them. In this particular case if a girl consents to dance with a boy and later decides she’d rather not, it is not the role of the university to intercede. It is her job to put on her big girl pants and say “I’d rather not continue,” or such to that effect.

    It horrifies me that there seems to be a generation incapable of managing their own affairs. The snowflake label is apt. At some point there will not be a university gender vice president there to hold her hand. What happens when she doesn’t get that job she wanted? Or fails on that big project? Or is fired? For many of these children this will be the first time their Mom or teacher or whoever did not shield them from life’s consequences. It is hard suffering these consequences at 8 years old. But that is how you learn resilience. For many of these children they will be 25 or 30 years old when they first experience negative consequences of life and I fear it will be devastating.

    Keith (f807d9)

  42. 42.No, it’s just a dumb, millennial bashing maymay.
    Davethulhu


    That’s better, Davethulhu. Just admit you are offended by the “millennial bashing” (you may have stumbled upon a new victim class for leftists). After all, everyone knows the “millennials” pictured are just like men of the same age who fight in Afghanistan, right? Pink hair, nose rings and androgyny notwithstanding, those two sweet dudes sure look like warriors to me. You must be really proud of your generation if that is yours and if it’s not then, oh well.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  43. Campus Insanity: Princeton Tells Men to Repeatedly Ask for Consent…On the Dance Floor

    Princeton’s a tad late to the dance w/that school of thought:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7lR3YDzKCA

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  44. republicans just asked permission from chukie schumer when they made him bend over and take it!

    permission granted (22a549)

  45. 44…
    Keith, is this what you mean?
    https://youtu.be/-uxgHvNxuAU

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  46. @44

    I have a son in the navy. Where does he fit on that picture? Where does your grandson?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  47. 47. Rev Hoagie – I’m pretty sure that’s a joke. But in this day and age you can’t be sure!

    Keith (f807d9)

  48. Safety Dance by Men Without Rights

    We can dance if ya want to.
    And I won’t touch your behind.
    ’cause there ain’t no chance,
    Of gettin’ in your pants, well
    I might as well play with mine.
    I say, we can go where ya want to.
    A place where they will never find.
    But ya better not be no mattress girl
    Walkin’ ‘round with a dumbass sign

    We can dance if ya want to.
    And I won’t touch your behind.
    ‘Cause there ain’t no chance
    Of gettin’ in your pants, well
    I might as well play with mine.

    Colonel Haiku (fb7ea4)

  49. Sounds like there’s some kind of culture war going on. But since Trumpers have been saying this for a while, that can’t be right.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  50. 48… probably next to the fellow with the hard hat, Cthulhu… https://youtu.be/ae1i3DSZjec

    Colonel Haiku (fb7ea4)

  51. People on this thread are talking about asking someone to dance (vs. just dancing up on them like Night at the Roxbury) like its the death knell for Western Civilization. Do you know how silly that looks?

    Feminists want men who think like women. Most women want men who think and act like men. Even if they say different. The “sensitive man” was tried in the 90’s. Didn’t work. The women wouldn’t date them.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  52. But Leviticus, why do you think that all (or even most) of the problems between the sexes has to do with men? Except for thuggish men (and there are plenty of women who like the bad boy), there’s a lot of blame to be laid on women. For every thug there’s a tease.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  53. The “overt demand” is that men need to act like decent human beings, with a modicum of respect for other people’s personal space, personal preferences, and personal agency.

    Yeah, but let’s face it, guys who do that don’t get the girls.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  54. They can’t say they weren’t warned… http://ace.mu.nu/archives/worst%20nightmare.jpg

    Colonel Haiku (fb7ea4)

  55. I have a son in the navy. Where does he fit on that picture? Where does your grandson?
    Davethulhu


    Okay, that’s enough. Stop acting ignorant. Unless you really are. Only you would know where your son would fit in that picture assuming he’d fit at all. And my grandson having recently been brainwashed by the leftist commies at Penn State is now a black racist living in Washington, DC and awaiting the great black revolution where they kill all the whites. So he doesn’t fit in that picture since the top is too patriotic and the bottom too queer.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  56. People on this thread are talking about asking someone to dance (vs. just dancing up on them like Night at the Roxbury) like its the death knell for Western Civilization. Do you know how silly that looks?

    There is more to the Princeton guidelines than that, or I would not have written the post.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  57. @57

    The picture is ignorant. Neither person in the picture is representative of their generation as a whole. For every 18yo fighting in Europe, there were 4 at home, messing with their cars or whatever it was that got civil war vets riled up.

    Davethulhu (99cc74)

  58. @ JVW: I think Paul Anka would probably accept that apology (#18) with the same smile I have after reading your annotated lyrics.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  59. To ensure that consensual sex has taken place, there should be three witnesses present, so a decisive vote can be taken afterword.

    bud (b48f3e)

  60. scary to think this is the same ivy league trash school what plops the occasional berobed turd onto the supreme court (Sotomayor, Kagan)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  61. 61, in other words, it’s not money or thuggishness that will get the girl, it will be who brings 3 strange people otherwise known as the cameraman, the director and the fluffer.

    urbanleftbehind (a53e48)

  62. You haven’t noticed that the pattern in most of these cases that the honey boo boos don’t complain until after they’ve been dumped or the guy doesn’t even come back for seconds? They think they set the hook by putting out, then they discover that the fish only stole the bait, and that makes them mad.

    nk (dbc370)

  63. What is wrong with the people at Princeton who came up with this policy?

    ROCHF (877dba)

  64. As a ballroom dancer, I am appalled.

    Charles D (d04f66)


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