Patterico's Pontifications

10/17/2017

Trump’s Monstrous Insensitivity to the Families of Fallen Soldiers: Two Related Anecdotes

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:00 pm



Susan Wright mentioned earlier that U.S. President Donald J. Trump made some phone calls today to the families of military personnel killed in Niger on October 4. Trump made the calls after facing questioning about what was taking so long. Here’s how one of those calls went:

U.S. President Donald Trump told U.S. Army Sgt. La David Johnson’s widow Tuesday that “he knew what he signed up for …but when it happens it hurts anyway,” when he died serving in northwestern Africa, according to Rep. Frederica Wilson, D-Miami Gardens.

“Yes, he said it,” Wilson said. “It’s so insensitive. He should have not have said that. He shouldn’t have said it.”

In related news, Trump today invoked the death of the son of his Chief of Staff John Kelly today to make a cheap political point:

“As far as other presidents, I don’t know, you could ask Gen. Kelly, did he get a call from Obama? I don’t know what Obama’s policy was,” Trump said.

The Washington Post tonight reports on just how much Kelly doesn’t like his son’s death being used for political purposes:

For the past seven years, Gen. John F. Kelly has gone out of his way to keep the death of his son free from politics.

He did not talk about him when — just four days after his death in southern Afghanistan — Kelly found himself commemorating two other Marines killed in combat, in a moving speech in St. Louis. In fact, he specifically asked the officer introducing him not to mention his boy, 2nd Lt. Robert M. Kelly, who was killed instantly when he stepped on a land mine while on patrol in 2010, according to a Washington Post report.

. . . .

Kelly has been private about his son’s death, even though both his and his sons’ military service clearly inform his thinking on White House foreign policy and national security decisions, which to him are not merely intellectual exercises, several White House officials said.

Kelly has previously resisted White House efforts to link children’s deaths with politics and policy.

Is Kelly upset? You be the judge:

Since joining Trump’s West Wing team, Kelly is almost always at the president’s side for public appearances. But he was notably absent Tuesday from a Rose Garden news conference with Trump and the Greek prime minister.

The White House offered no explanation of why Kelly was not in attendance.

I’d like to think he told the President that if he ever uses the memory of his son to make a cheap political point again, he’ll be looking for a new Chief of Staff.

Then again, maybe Donald Trump replied by telling Kelly: “You knew what you signed up for.”

UPDATE: Trump tweets that the Democrat Congresswoman lied and that he has proof:

Trump also implied he had a tape that would prove James Comey lied about what was said in a private meeting. I have yet to hear that tape. So: we’ll see about this proof.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

185 Responses to “Trump’s Monstrous Insensitivity to the Families of Fallen Soldiers: Two Related Anecdotes”

  1. If only Trump had been more sensitive and told the widow her husband had no clue what he signed up for.

    harkin (8789d3)

  2. Yes, yes, a Democratic congresswoman, TDS, blah blah

    It sounds exactly like something he’d say.

    And the stuff he said about Kelly would have been unbelievable from any other president. Yet I heard it with my own ears.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  3. If only Trump had been more sensitive and told the widow her husband had no clue what he signed up for.

    Or OOH I KNOW or if he had said nothing whatsoever about what he signed up for

    Yes, I was slow on the draw with the script. WHERE IS THE GREASEMONKEY VERSION

    Patterico (115b1f)

  4. I’m pleased to see that someone managed to miss this post’s point on the very first response. Way to set a high bar!

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  5. oh dear not another cargo ship

    these times, they can indeed be as uncongenial as they are unforgiving

    nevertheless

    there’s President Trump for you. He’ll see us through to the far shore he will!

    we always knew he’d be a vision in white

    but how’d he get them pants so tight

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  6. BTW the Congresswoman actually overheard the call.

    https://twitter.com/PhilipRucker/status/920482695041437696

    Patterico (115b1f)

  7. Trump is awful and horrible but maybe 5% better than Hillary.

    Hmm, 5% compounded over 8 years is … Go on Patterico, you’re a lawyer, you can do the math right? Ha, ha, ah, ha, time for a large gin, lawyers doing math or logic, hee, hee, hee.

    PS: 47.74554437890625%

    PPS: 6% amounts to 59.38480745308416%

    Fred Z (05d938)

  8. “I’m pleased to see that someone managed to miss this post’s point on the very first response.”

    I was pleased that I only had to wait an hour for this breatheless, ecstatic post to come up; I was waiting for it.

    Well done!

    harkin (8789d3)

  9. Pro tip: the problem is not with the “he knew what he was signing up for.” It’s with the other bit.

    Off the top of my head, here is a better approach:

    “Your husband knew what he was signing up for. He knew he would be placing his life on the line to defend freedom all over the world. And we should be humbled by his commitment, even as we mourn his sacrifice.”

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  10. Quote:

    In his call with Sgt. La David T. Johnson’s widow, Myeshia Johnson, Trump told her, “He knew what was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway,” according to the account of Rep. Frederica S. Wilson (D-Fla.), who was riding in a limousine with Johnson when the president called and heard the conversation on speakerphone.

    Wilson recalled in an interview with The Washington Post that Johnson broke down in tears. “He made her cry,” Wilson said. The congresswoman said she wanted to take the phone and “curse him out,” but that the Army sergeant holding the phone would not let her speak to the president.

    The White House neither confirmed nor denied Wilson’s account. “The President’s conversations with the families of American heroes who have made the ultimate sacrifice are private,” a White House official said in a statement.

    #FAKENEWSWASHINGTONPOST

    Patterico (115b1f)

  11. I hate to say this, but sometimes I think that Mr. President’s statements are outrageously inappropriate — like he was some kind of demented buffoon or something. Has anybody else ever had that impression, or is it just me?

    nk (dbc370)

  12. From the Congresswoman:

    Wilson says it was clear to her Trump had no script. “He was talking off the cuff,” she recalled, “saying the same thing over and over.”

    Dana (023079)

  13. “Pro tip: the problem is not with the “he knew what he was signing up for.” It’s with the other bit.

    Last line of the original post:

    Then again, maybe Donald Trump replied by telling Kelly: “You knew what you signed up for.”

    Don’t worry, he won’t see it.

    harkin (8789d3)

  14. “Bogie at 3’O’clock!”– Can just guess what our ‘television generation’ Captain watched on the ‘Late, Late, Late, Show’ last night…

    “I’m sorry they had to die. I’m sorry they didn’t get a chance to live out their lives, so they could’ve finished what they started out to do. But those are the breaks.” – Lt. Joe Rossi [Humphrey Bogart] ‘Action In The North Atlantic’ – 1943

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  15. frederica bonbon sounds like a trashy pimp all up in that limo like a trashy pimp all up in it

    but i can’t help thinking

    WE ALMOST HAD IT ALL

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  16. Interesting math, Fred. Just one problem from my perspective: Hillary would be worthless as a president — literally worth zero. You say that Trump is maybe 5% better than she is.

    So what’s 105% of zero? Go on. Do the math. I’ll wait…

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  17. Trump and Trumpkins: “What about those other guys? They did it, too.” F*** yourself, Mr. President!

    nk (dbc370)

  18. Off the top of my head, here is a better approach:

    “Your husband knew what he was signing up for. He knew he would be placing his life on the line to defend freedom all over the world. And we should be humbled by his commitment, even as we mourn his sacrifice.”

    Ya think?

    I’m not defending Trump’s incredible lack of tact or speaking skills, I’m more marveling at the continued incredulity of those suffering from TDS that somehow this changes anything.

    harkin (8789d3)

  19. 19 edit – should read “incredulity of those suffering from TDS or that somehow this changes anything”

    harkin (8789d3)

  20. U.S. President Donald Trump told U.S. Army Sgt. La David Johnson’s widow Tuesday that “he knew what he signed up for …but when it happens it hurts anyway,” when he died serving in northwestern Africa, according to Rep. Frederica Wilson, D-Miami Gardens.

    Still, I would like to know the full quote.

    Dana (023079)

  21. The sad thing is that right now, harkin is busy patting himself on the back for that one. Or patting himself somewhere else.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  22. “The sad thing is that right now, harkin is busy patting himself on the back for that one. Or patting himself somewhere else.”

    Lol – thanks for letting me know what I’m dealing with, I was not familiar.

    harkin (8789d3)

  23. We know it changes nothing. Trump gonna Trump. Trumpers gonna love Trump Trumping. It’s as constant as my cat whining for some outside time every time I pass by the back door. But it still doesn’t stop us from saying “No.”

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  24. Still, I would like to know the full quote.

    This speaks really well of you Dana.

    Me i see nothing in the quote we have what’s malapropos in any way at all, but I do often wish jeffy bezos and his WaPo Jennifer Rubin fake news propaganda sluts would contextualize their stories more better.

    Context aside though nevertrump still gonna pimp them dead soldiers out like a tuesday night hooker with a mean jello puddin pop habit.

    gonna say ooh General Kelly ain’t you oh so mad bout how you dead soldier son be all used and abused in death

    don’t it make you oh so mad general kelly

    we can see you feel the incitement don’t you general baby

    and it hard on you oh yes

    we see the pain in your eyes

    but these nevertrump shenanigans

    they’re so gross and juvenile and hateful and so tremendously disproportional to anything President Trump has said or could possibly have intentioned

    it’s tacky

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  25. you continue to prove you would rather be happier with Hillary

    Scott (3e15f3)

  26. From Dan McLaughlin:

    Hard to judge this without context. This could be callous, it could also be genuine respect for choosing danger.

    And this is why the full quote is important.

    Given that the Congresswoman said it was clear that Trump was speaking off the cuff, and based on what we know and have seen of Trump’s inarticulate-foot-in-mouth gaffes and incoherency as he freestyles when speaking, it seems both options are possible. Further, if he believed the call were simply between him and a newly widowed woman in full-grief for her recently lost husband, I can see where such intense intimacy would totally throw him off. I don’t think he deals on that level very well. I think he likes to keep it shallow and very much on the surface, devoid of serious emotion or pain. He thrives on an audience, but a unique audience of one, such as a new widow whose husband died under his watch, is an entirely different animal. And I think one he would prefer to avoid like the plague.

    Dana (023079)

  27. Trump spends way too much time belittling others to make himself look bigger. It’s not only un-Presidential, it’s unmanly.

    nk (dbc370)

  28. I hope there is more context and what Trump said was comforting to this young widow, and not something that hurt her.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  29. I agree, nk. But in this particular instance, there is no way possible for him to look bigger. Bigger than who? And if he tried, he would just look small and perverse. If he did make the remarks as relayed by the Congresswoman, which would also be consistent with his personality and historical record, then it’s such an appalling display of ignorance and insensitivity, that there are simply no words.

    Dana (023079)

  30. He’s a good person Mr. nk his name Donald is from middle sanskrit and means he who walks among us with humility and empathy [citation needed], and he bears this name well. He’s one of those people for whom “President of the United States” is not merely a gauche, semi-ridiculous and over-fancy title, but it’s a title what embodies a calling of the soul – a calling to serve.

    Like Jesus there are those what would crucify him on a crucifix made of materials near-at-hand like lumber and certain other suitable materials.

    But he holds his head high for us. That we might also persevere with something like his grace.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  31. I guess I’m horribly dull but I am not offended. I was a Coast Guard brat. I was born in a Navy hospital the passageways were lined with the badly burned and legs cut off when the cable broke.

    I am not offended. I guess I’m not easily offended.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  32. You are going to have to explain this, Pat.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  33. The name Donald is Scottish and it means world leader. It fits Trump’s current job title to a T, but it doesn’t mean humility and empathy.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  34. Donald is a masculine given name derived from the Gaelic name Dòmhnall. This comes from the Proto-Celtic *Dumno-ualos (“world-ruler” or “world-wielder”). … Although the feminine given name Donna is sometimes used as a feminine form of Donald, the names are not etymologically related.

    Gag me with a spoon.

    nk (dbc370)

  35. what if trump were heathcliff it’s no myth

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  36. Heh, DRJ!

    nk (dbc370)

  37. I think the same things pique our interest, nk.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  38. Demosthenes: Worth zero? Please dear boy, someone or other invented negative numbers some time ago, I had that gin, and maybe another one or two, so I don’t know exactly when. 1942? 1492? Hillary was never a zero, she was a negative Aleph-Null, at least, hah, half cut, and two, count them, two math puns in one sentence. Indeed, my math puns are countable or worse. You, on the other hand, understand neither math (arithmetic really) nor gin, nor, even worse, the catastrophe that would have been Hillary.

    My percentages were extremely conservative. The woman is a crocodilian termagant.

    Fred Z (05d938)

  39. Hmm. First time I’ve seen “termagant” outside a Jack Vance novel. I bow to you, Fred Z.

    nk (dbc370)

  40. When you termagant you make a term out of a gant.

    Wow, gant is a yawn.

    I don’t want to be a Gold Star parent but if I were I don’t know that words from any president would move me either way.

    Pinandpuller (375f07)

  41. gold stars mean you spelled everything right and you didn’t forget to do punctuate on it

    i got one once but i think i lost it in the move

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  42. 31, whoa there, didn’t the Beatles almost get lynched in Alabama for the same self-assessment? Actually JC statuary is getting swapped out for orange man down there.

    urbanleftbehind (6a13e5)

  43. Dana Dana (023079) — 10/17/2017 @ 9:28 pm

    Wilson says it was clear to her Trump had no script. “He was talking off the cuff,” she recalled, “saying the same thing over and over.”

    That sounds like Trump.

    I don’t know what they’re criticizing him for. He just doesn’t know what to say.

    If there is any mistake on his part, it’s attempting to comfort the widow too close to the time when she heard the news. But it may not have been that close since he only gets to call after all the notification of next of kin.

    The Congresswoman said the widow said only one thing: “Thank You” so she wasn’t complaining. (The call was on speakerphone so she heard every word on both sides.)

    This sounds like people wanting to criticize Donald Trump for everything where they might not criticize someone else who did the same thing. This sounds very similar to what they say when policemen or firemen die during the performance of their duties.

    Now if you want to say Donald Trump is awkward, yes he is. You could maybe criticize him for going ahead with something without having any idea how to do it. Perhaps a better person would have consulted several people as to what do you say in such circumstances.

    But on the other hand, nobody had volunteered anything. What is he supposed to say? Maybe say very little and just let the widow talk. Or maybe also (which may be a lie) say her husband greatly contributed to the safety of the United States or the world.

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  44. “As far as other presidents, I don’t know, you could ask Gen. Kelly, did he get a call from Obama? I don’t know what Obama’s policy was,” Trump said.

    Trump was defending his claim that other presidents didn’t always call the families. Now of course they had many more deaths of soldiers to deal with. Trump does have no sense of what shouldn’t be to the general public. On the otehr hand, he was trapped, having made the statement about other presidents.

    Now maybe that was the cheap political point.

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  45. UPDATE: Trump tweets that the Democrat Congresswoman lied and that he has proof:

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/920611770775064576

    Trump also implied he had a tape that would prove James Comey lied about what was said in a private meeting. I have yet to hear that tape. So: we’ll see about this proof.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  46. I hope the focus doesn’t go to the widow. If it did, given how the more militant Trumpers act, I can see this resulting in death threats to her. That would probably help her grieving process a lot I bet.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  47. a sleazy piece of congresstrash all up in a funeral limo doesn’t exactly have gold star credibility

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  48. I hope the focus doesn’t go to the widow.

    perhaps another post about her will help

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  49. I will be very happy if Trump proves that the Congresslady lied and that I was wrong to say all those bad things about him, and I mean it sincerely. If there’s anything that I like less than Trump is ghetto-trash constituency Congresstremegants.

    nk (dbc370)

  50. The Democrats were all up in arms yesterday about how Trump lied when he said other presidents didn’t (always) call the family members. They didn’t say:

    That’s an unfair comparison! Obama had to deal with 500 or so dead soldiers in his first year in office – how many did Trump have to deal with?

    If you listened very carefully, you might notice taht they didn’t actually make the claim that Obama (or Bush or anyone else under whose watch soldiers died) had called every military family. But the message got through. I heard Erick Erickson interviewed last night on NPR (from Macon Georgia) and he bought into that, not having heard the CBS Evening News, which reported Trump’s hint about Kelly.

    I think Trump made the call because he had been criticized for not saying anything (or Twitter, or anywhere else) about the events in Niger. They took place on October 4. So, on Tuesday, October 18, two weeks later (was it only yesterday?) when the caskets were arriving – it was delayed because of autopsies and probably making sure they got it right when trying to identify which body part belonged to whom – he tried to make up for it by calling the families.

    (He didn’t take care to get the full names of the dead soldiers before making the calls, because he’s only an apprentice at this.)

    Trump had to say he was better than Obama. And the Democrats had to say that Trump lied, when he didn’t.

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  51. Trump spoke with her for 3 to 5 minutes, so what the Congresswoman quoted was clearly not the full text of the conversation, which was probably transcribed, and in any case listened to by some others, probably including General Kelly.

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  52. Now maybe Trump lied in the sense that he might not have made the calls if he hadn’t been criticized for ignoring those deaths. Did he call previous familiies of soldiers who died since January 20?

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  53. lawyers doing math or logic,
    Lawyers who can do math are called “accountants”.

    In his call with Sgt. La David T. Johnson’s widow, Myeshia Johnson, Trump told her, “He knew what was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway,” according to the account of Rep. Frederica S. Wilson (D-Fla.)

    I find a not-so-amusing consistency in many of these unverified quotes published in the MSM. They start with “Trump said” or “Trump told” or whatever. What people hear first they tend to latch on to, especially if it’s something that they WANT to hear. The qualifier follows, often as late in the sentence or paragraph as possible, only to give the reporter an out. In other cases such as this one, we get a lead in of “In his call with Sgt. La David T. Johnson’s widow, Myeshia Johnson,” which is a phrase full of facts which helps set the reader’s mind in the proper (proper for the propagandist) context.

    That anyone who is a non-leftist would jump on this unverified quote, based purely on the “integrity” of a POS leftist race-baiter like Wilson is disgraceful to say the least.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  54. Trump’s comment, if true, was insensitive but that is the risk he takes on constantly speaking without a script or notes. Another risk is getting the deceased soldier’s name wrong:

    Trump called Johnson shortly before her husband’s body arrived at the Miami International airport. He was one of four soldiers killed in Niger this month.

    Wilson said on CNN that Johnson told her Trump didn’t even know her late husband’s name.

    “When she actually hung up the phone and she looked at me and said, ‘He didn’t even know his name,” Wilson said.

    Frankly, if this is true, it bothers me even more because it suggests Trump wants attention and isn’t trying to help a grieving widow. Otherwise he would have made the effort and cared enough to give this widow the respect of getting hair husband’s name right.

    DRJ (15874d)

  55. funeral limo queen

    your car’s here ma’am

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  56. @Sammy:Trump spoke with her for 3 to 5 minutes, so what the Congresswoman quoted was clearly not the full @text of the conversation

    I personally would be very slow to draw conclusions from an out-of-context snippet of a longer, and emotional conversation, presented by a hostile witness, but the media needs grist for its narratives.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  57. Incidentally why was the Congresswoman on the call?

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  58. Trump should have said, in response to the Democrats’ yapping for not calling the families according to the Democrats’ schedule: “There’s a right time for this, and I will be the judge when that time is. Don’t make dead soldiers a political football.” Leaving out all that verbiage about what past Presidents did. But if he had, he wouldn’t be Trump. Like I said above, his habit is to make himself look bigger by belittling others. The habit of an insecure bully.

    nk (dbc370)

  59. Lost in this he said-she said is the unspeakable grief of a wife and mother. Because whether the Congresswoman repeated exactly what the President said – and in the context in which he said it – or if she repeated only a portion of it and left out a critical part of the convo or context, either way it she has exploited the widow’s grief for her own political gain.

    If President Trump said the actual words – and in the context in which the Congresswoman related – then he is as big of a self-centered, tone-deaf, insensitive bitch as we have seen him be in the past. And he needs to shut-up. If President Trump said the words, but the tone and context was different than what the Congresswoman would have us believe, or if he simply didn’t say those things, even in that, his Tweet accusing the Congresswoman of lying and claiming to have proof is to diminish the widow’s grief for the sake of self-defense. It makes him look small. Fair or not, the high road would have been to make a brief statement saying something like, “I’m sorry to hear that the Congresswoman has chosen to take a widow’s grief and make political points off of it”. Then simply say what he told Mrs. Johnson, briefly and succinctly, and that he will not address this any further as he does not wish to intrude on a family’s grief, nor take away the attention from her husband’s faithful service to his country, and family.

    Dana (023079)

  60. glenn beck wants to know why did the incompetent US Army send these tatters out to a hostile area without sufficient intelligence about the risk and without nearby medical resources

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  61. @nk:Trump should have said, in response to the Democrats’ yapping for not calling the families according to the Democrats’ schedule:

    Yes, he certainly should have, especially considering how selective the media’s interest in this topic is.

    The Washington Post factchecker could not find any contemporaneous evidence that Obama made such calls. Which does not mean the calls did not happen; it means that the media had no interest in the topic.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  62. Yes of the democrats hadn’t weaponized Cyndi Sheehan I would agree with you, but Frederick Wilson wasn’t the Maxine waters of the east coast, I would reserve judgement

    narciso (cf5787)

  63. @Dana:“I’m sorry to hear that the Congresswoman has chosen to take a widow’s grief and make political points off of it”.

    That would have been the better way to go, but he still would be getting the same criticism even so. Perhaps not from you.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  64. Glenn Kessler or one of his elves good luck getting the truth from him

    narciso (cf5787)

  65. “I’m sorry to hear that the Congresswoman has chosen to take a widow’s grief and make political points off of it”

    Dana could you not just as easily substitute “nevertrump” for “the congresswoman” and have no less a cogent observation

    i think you can

    wait let me read it again

    yup for sure you can

    it’s just like taking tasty pickles out the jar and replacing them with tasty pickles from another jar

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  66. The Congresswoman has responded to Trump’s tweet, saying that she was not the only person in the car, and that Trump is a sick man. She then made this admission: “I didn’t hear the whole phone call, but I did hear him say I’m sure he knew what he was signing up for, and uh, but it still hurts. And I asked them to let me speak with him, and the Master Sergeant said “no, you can’t speak with him,” and I said, “but I want to speak with him” because I was livid.

    Dana (023079)

  67. sounds like hoochie took a knee in the funeral limo

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  68. One good thing about this: the only reason anyone can make a fuss about what a President did or did not say in a call to the family of a dead soldier, is because hardly any soldiers die these days.

    That is an enormous blessing which I think too few of us have enough historical perspective to be thankful for.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  69. I will be very happy if Trump proves that the Congresslady lied and that I was wrong to say all those bad things about him, and I mean it sincerely.

    #MeToo

    Patterico (115b1f)

  70. If President Trump said the actual words – and in the context in which the Congresswoman related – then he is as big of a self-centered, tone-deaf, insensitive bitch as we have seen him be in the past.

    I disagree with this as well. I can imagine a scenario in which one could have said those very words, and again I have far more reason to doubt they were said that way than to believe that they were said that way, and certainly not be “insensitive”. Not everyone is a perfect wordsmith who knows exactly what to say and how to say it when speaking with people in distress or deep grief. Who among us who has been through the loss of a loved one or two or three or more have not had at least one person try to comfort you by saying what could be construed as “the wrong thing”? A decent person, or maybe it’s just me, would appreciate the effort and understand that the person’s awkwardness is an attempt to express genuine sympathy and not concentrate on a word stumble or two. It’s hyper over-reactions like these that cause many people to just shut up and say nothing rather than be human and express sympathy.

    This issue bleeds into something else I find quite disturbing. It’s this hyper focus on “politeness” and such that itself becomes a tool of rudeness, using outrage at verbal missteps as a tool to beat your opponent over the head with. To me such things are quite a tell on the weakness of the “offended” one’s position. I have long harbored a suspicion that such focus on formality and a fragile structure of customs, which ostensibly exist to smooth out potential social conflict, is as bad as a crude, rude society in so far as creating friction in social situations. I’ve even gone so far as to wonder if that wasn’t a significant problem/weakness in Victorian England such that bad news did not get expressed and thus bad situations got swept under the rug.

    Forgive me if that was awkwardly stated. Just felt it needed to be said.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  71. The Congresswoman has responded to Trump’s tweet, saying that she was not the only person in the car, and that Trump is a sick man. She then made this admission: “I didn’t hear the whole phone call, but I did hear him say I’m sure he knew what he was signing up for, and uh, but it still hurts. And I asked them to let me speak with him, and the Master Sergeant said “no, you can’t speak with him,” and I said, “but I want to speak with him” because I was livid.

    What’s up with that hat?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  72. Dana could you not just as easily substitute “nevertrump” for “the congresswoman” and have no less a cogent observation

    It’s silly and defeating to attempt to make a “NeverTrump” comparison or analogy out of this. Further, it’s lazy. “Nevertrump” labeling is nothing but an uninspired, catch-all junk drawer phrase used to cut off attempts at honest discussion. Once it’s used, then the user has decided that there is no point in discussing the issue because obviously the other person is wrong, by default, because “nevertrump”.

    Dana (023079)

  73. @Dana: Once it’s used, then the user has decided that there is no point in discussing the issue because obviously the other person is wrong, by default, because “nevertrump”.

    Rather like “Trumper” and assuming that “Trumpers” will always and automatically approve of Trump and demonize anyone who doesn’t. There are people who use that label in the same way.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  74. I actually agree, CFarleigh, that it can be hard to know what to say and how to say it, even for Presidents. It would be nice if Trump thought about it and even worked on a script to fall back on, but that is not his style. That’s why the possibility that Trump didn’t even get her husband’s name right bothers me a lot more than the possibility that he said something awkward. Getting her husband’s name right is something Trump should care enough to verify before even making the call.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  75. i don’t call your analogies silly

    you’re mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  76. What’s up with that hat?

    It appears they are her signature look. As it seems an inappropriate time to offer a fashion critique, given the subject matter of this post, I would just offer that, at least they are color coordinated to match her ensembles.

    Dana (023079)

  77. Yes, Reverend, what did I say about the term POS…

    From CFarleigh at #54

    That anyone who is a non-leftist would jump on this unverified quote, based purely on the “integrity” of a POS leftist race-baiter like Wilson is disgraceful to say the least.

    urbanleftbehind (6a13e5)

  78. 77, a Beldar from another elder?

    urbanleftbehind (6a13e5)

  79. Still, getting a call from the President and Commander-in-Chief isn’t just any condolence call. It’s special and newsworthy. Trump needs to work on doing a better job at this, which is true about virtually everything related to his Presidency. It is sad that he is having to learn this the hard way — over and over and over again. Most of us learn this as young adults but he did not.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  80. @DRJ:It’s special and newsworthy.

    It wasn’t when Obama was in office,since there was no contemporaneous reporting about any such calls. It only is so with Republicans in office. Cindy Sheehan told a number of verifiably untrue statements about what Bush did when her son died, which the media uncritically repeated as fact. Here we have criticisms retailed at one remove.

    I do not say Trump couldn’t have acted this way. I am saying we simply do not know, but that the media would prefer to pretend that we do because it suits them.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  81. Yes, Ben burn. At least he didn’t say he prefers military men who didn’t die.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  82. ohnoes a slicked-up-n-sleazy harvardtrash judge in maryland done did an injunction all up in it

    The plaintiffs “have established that they are likely to succeed on the merits,” District Judge Theodore Chuang wrote in the Tuesday order in dealing another setback to the Trump administration’s attempt to ban travel to the U.S. by citizens of certain countries.

    National Soros Radio notes that “in both Maryland and Hawaii, the courts blocked the ban from affecting the Muslim-majority countries on the list, while allowing it to take effect regarding Venezuela and North Korea.”

    Sounds like discrimination to me.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  83. @DRJ:At least he didn’t say he prefers military men who didn’t die.

    He could have said that, we don’t know the conversation. Perhaps it was a hundred times worse than the Congresswoman represented it.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  84. Are you kidding me, Frederick? The media loved to report it when Obama paid his respects to our fallen military.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  85. . It is sad that he is having to learn this the hard way — over and over and over again.

    But that’s the point: he isn’t learning as evidenced by how many times he steps in it. I don’t believe he needs to learn anything because he truly believes he already knows everything he needs to know. To be teachable is to be humble, and that he is not.

    Dana (023079)

  86. @DRJ:It would be nice if Trump thought about it and even worked on a script to fall back on

    If such a thing existed, and the media got hold of it, it is not hard to imagine the headlines and commentary that would result.

    The media simply does not care, it will be used in the same way.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  87. Everything the President does is special and newsworthy, Frederick, because he’s the President.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  88. Ok, I get it now. You’re ranting about the media’s bias. Fair enough.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  89. @DRJ:Are you kidding me, Frederick? The media loved to report it when Obama paid his respects to our fallen military.

    I’m quoting the Washington Post factchecker on Obama making condolence calls. I never said or implied that Obama had no interaction whatever with the families of fallen soldiers.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  90. @DRJ:It would be nice if Trump thought about it and even worked on a script to fall back on

    If such a thing existed, and the media got hold of it, it is not hard to imagine the headlines and commentary that would result.

    The media simply does not care, it will be used in the same way.

    Exactly. Meant to add that to my comment above as well.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  91. If Trump had friends in Congress, one or more House members would propose articles of impeachment against those so-called judges as kind of a shot across the bow. That’s why it’s smart not to alienate all the Congresspersons from your own party.

    nk (dbc370)

  92. @DRJ:Ok, I get it now.

    If you notice, I am not arguing with you. I am reacting to things you have said, yes, but I am not contradicting you or arguing with you.

    You’re ranting

    That’s a pretty unfair adjective. I am invariable courteous, reasoned, and civil.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  93. He does learn eventually, Dana. The travel ban is an example. Initially, he didn’t think it through — probably because he has no legal understanding at all, other than coercion and bullying — and then he tried his usual approach by bully tweets and threats. Ultimately, however, he (or, more likely, his staff) offered a more thoughtful and defensible travel ban. So I think he learned that sometimes you have to do the work instead of take the easy way out.

    I bet he will learn that here, too, and the proof will be when he starts making more of these calls public because they go better.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  94. I hope everyone realizes you are debating the degree of mental illness, not it’s presence.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  95. From Johnson’s mother:

    Johnson’s mother, Cowanda Jones-Johnson, told The Washington Post on Wednesday that she was in the car during the call from the White House and that “President Trump did disrespect my son and my daughter and also me and my husband.”

    Jones-Johnson, speaking to The Post via Facebook Messenger, declined to elaborate.

    But asked whether Wilson’s account of the conversation between Trump and the family was accurate, she replied: “Yes.”

    Dana (023079)

  96. …and tepid

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  97. Thank you for your support and corrections, Frederick. I am fortunate to have your input and personal attention.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  98. A lying liar lies. Of course there’s a tape – until there isn’t.

    CMD (88e9b1)

  99. @DRJ:Thank you for your support and corrections,

    Again, not arguing with you.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  100. I didn’t say you were. I thanked you.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  101. He’s calling you out Drj…

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  102. “President Trump did disrespect my son and my daughter and also me and my husband.”

    Yes. I’m sure PDT said to himself, let me take some time out of my day to call up the family of a fallen soldier and disrespect him and them. Obviously that was his intent. Whatever happened, whatever was said, if there was any disrespect, an act which requires intent, it has been directed at PDT and not the other way around.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  103. He may learn some things, DRJ, but I think he has so much working against him – himself, for one, and his default foot-in-mouth cloddiness coupled with an ever-present lack of awareness and filters, that these kind of situations are always going to stumble him. If he took instruction more readily, it might help. But not until *after* the damage has been done. And that’s sort of the idea: to learn it before doing damage. This does not seem to compute with him.

    Dana (023079)

  104. hey look it has a minibar

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  105. Learning curves are hard when you’re 70 yrs old and sclerotic from Bigly Macs and chokealot cake.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  106. I think Frederick is sincerely trying to correct things he disagrees with or thinks are wrong, Ben burn. In that vein, the Washington Post Fact Checker says there were no reports of Obama’s condolence calls but “this is not something the White House would necessarily talk about.” So we don’t really know if Obama made many calls or not, nor other Presidents who likely treated those calls as things to be kept private. However, I doubt there were many calls because Obama was known as reluctant to do things like that.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  107. Yes I see him as a Corrector and I look forward to his first one.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  108. except for sleazy generals and other trashy-assed “top brass” the military hated obama’s guts plus the pussy way he lost every war he sent them into

    this is why every interaction food stamp had with the military was stage-managed and choreographed

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  109. Right and what happens if an attack from someone who is a permanent resident or a Iraqi national, we know how bogus that dhs memo was.

    narciso (cf5787)

  110. But even Trump acknowledged that he didn’t know if Obama made condolence calls, and Obama’s aides said he did.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  111. I think learning curves are hard for young and old, Ben burn. Both can think they know it all.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  112. I agree Drj. I have to compliment you, though, as learning curves don’t seem to faze you.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  113. And that’s sort of the idea: to learn it before doing damage. This does not seem to compute with him.
    Dana (023079) — 10/18/2017 @ 8:11 am

    I think taking risks is part of his core business approach, so he doesn’t see “doing damage” as a negative but as proof that he is taking acceptable risks. If it doesn’t work, he pulls back and accepts a fallback position.

    This is his business model — to take risks and push for the most he can get, even if it means he looks insensitive or like a bully. In fact, looking like that is a feature to him, not a bug.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  114. Mom has corroborated cowboy-hat Congresswoman. Post coming on Trump’s denial does not have mom’s corroboration because off to work.

    Patterico (bd09f6)

  115. I’m not sure what you mean by learning curves not fazing me, but I hope to learn something new everyday, Ben burn. What blessed lives we have if we can do that.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  116. mom didn’t corroborate anything she just made vague grunting noise about how she got all disrepected in the funeral limo by a call from the president of the united states

    she didn’t hear the actual call anymore than jesse the yodeling congresshooch did

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  117. It’s terrible that she felt disrespected and as DRJ suggested, Trump better figure these out, with a script if he needs to have one–and he’d better keep the media from getting it, because they will characterize that as disrespectful in itself.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  118. Too bad Trump did not serve. It would assist his massive learning curves.

    http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/355804-dem-senator-trump-hasnt-been-forthcoming-enough-about-attack-on-us-soldiers

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  119. it’s important to learn all the things for example today I should like to learn why Venezuela’s on the list of travel ban states (Chad, Venezuela, North Korea, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen)

    hrm here’s the list of states where empanadas are considered to be intrinsically local fare:

    2.1 Argentina
    2.2 Belize
    2.3 Cape Verde
    2.4 Chile
    2.5 Indonesia
    2.6 Philippines
    2.7 Sicily (Italy)
    2.8 United States
    2.9 Venezuela

    I find it very curious that Venezuela’s the only country what’s on both the terrorism list AND the empanada list.

    What’s going on here?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  120. Because Venezuela hS been giving passports to terrorists like Hezbollah as if they were tootsy rolls. Montes Bradley gave us the low down on that, and it has been supporting that far left party in spain.

    narciso (cf5787)

  121. Because Venezuela has been giving passports to terrorists like Hezbollah as if they were tootsie rolls.

    thank you SO much i really didn’t have the energy to ask the googles

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  122. because we trade hostages using cocaine to fight Commie Sandinistas in a sovereign Nation and call them Freedumb Fighters

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  123. “Where do we find such men?” Well, we find them where we’ve always found them. They are the product of the freest society man has ever known. They make a commitment to the military—make it freely, because the birthright we share as Americans is worth defending. God bless America.
    Ronald Reagan, May 15, 1982

    If our current president had spoken the same words how would they have been received? We’ll never know…

    crazy (d99a88)

  124. Ben sasse can’t be bothered to note that or the 100 students who were slain there. And cabello, makes Noriega look like a poker he has his own cartel.

    narciso (cf5787)

  125. tootsie rolls are intrinsically local fare here in chicago cause of this is where the tootsie mothership is based and where most of them are still made

    but we have to go back to the Korean War to learn the *rest* of the story:

    During the Battle of Chosin Reservoir in 1950, mortar sections under the United States Marine Corps started to run out of mortar rounds. The radio men of these sections started requesting more rounds. There were too many nearby enemy anti-air emplacements however, and the risk that they might lose any airlifted supplies was too great, so they had to wait. After two days of waiting, all the mortar sections ran out of rounds. At this point they accidentally ordered hundreds of crates of Tootsie Roll candies instead of mortar rounds. This was because some elements of the United States military had used “tootsie rolls” as code for mortar rounds.

    President Trump called the families of the fallen soldiers. They asked him hey what’s up with all them tootsie rolls?

    And President Trump said oh my goodness that was a mixer-up on account of the code word for mortar rounds was “tootsie rolls.”

    As you can imagine the families felt very disrespected the end.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  126. Count me with those who aren’t offended, even though I acknowledge that the “knew what he signed up for” part was awkward.

    I guess to please some NeverGorsuch types here, Trump should just read a lightly modified Bixby Letter over the phone?

    Jeesh. No wonder I seldom darken this website anymore. There’s so much more to go after Trump about (and, frankly, to post about generally) than his ham-handed attempt to console a military widow.

    Mitch (341ca0)

  127. He’s also on the payroll, cabello, is of Derwick partners which does the job that fusion does stateside.

    narciso (cf5787)

  128. Now the passport deal has been going on four years now, the Sandinista did the same for one of the first wtc plotters.

    narciso (cf5787)

  129. DRJ @55 @ 7:22 am: Re: getting the deceased soldier’s name wrong:

    The link doesn’t say he got the name wrong. It says he didn’t know the name.

    Which means to me, that in the conversation he wanted to use her late husband’s name, but he had to ask her what it was.

    Possibly he knew his military rank and last name. If he had at some point, that piece of paper wasn’t in front of him.

    So maybe it went something like this: “uh, uh, what was his name?”

    Apparently, this must have happened at the beginning of the conversation, before it was put on Speakerphone (at the Congresswoman’s request?)

    It could also be he thought that the name he had had has to be wrong. Now Trump is 71 years old, born 1946. He’s surely never encountered anyone with a name like “La David” And he surely didn’t know what name or nickname he used in his family. Surely not “La David?”

    And if you had the name “La David” in front of you, could you really be sure that’s what his name was? Maybe the La stands for Louisiana, and the records are confused. Or the La is some kind of modification of his military rank that he doesn’t know about.

    Frankly, if this is true, it bothers me even more because it suggests Trump wants attention and isn’t trying to help a grieving widow. Otherwise he would have made the effort and cared enough to give this widow the respect of getting hair husband’s name right.

    Oh, I think it’s correct anyway that his motivation was to squelch criticism, or he wouldn’t have claimed that he was better than other presidents. Obama, it seems, very often sent form letters signed by Autopen (according to Mark Simone but maybe that’s wrong)

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  130. Since they got you your segula for San Salvador ops you would know narco.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  131. The regime was on the take from odebrecht, and banked through Panamanian intermediaries, like podesta and a whole host of people whose trasanctiond,were memoruholed,

    narciso (cf5787)

  132. A brief stint with Sinaloa cartel followed from which you retired

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  133. A bipartisan Senate deal to curb the growth of health insurance premiums is reeling after President Donald Trump reversed course and opposed the agreement and top congressional Republicans and conservatives gave it a frosty reception.

    i love President Trump more today than i did yesterday!

    he’s got all my love and devotion now that’s for sure

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  134. “He knew what was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway,”

    RIPLEYS BELIEVE IT OR NOT!

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  135. Soy Cubano mentecato, and your pot crazed brain can’t identify what a cedula is: national Id card.

    narciso (364166)

  136. 57. Frederick (8a82ba) — 10/18/2017 @ 7:23 am

    I personally would be very slow to draw conclusions from an out-of-context snippet of a longer, and emotional conversation, presented by a hostile witness, but the media needs grist for its narratives.

    It wasn’t the media that was interested in this. It was the Democrats. I actually didn’t find anything about this in any of the printed newspapers I read today.

    This was a counterpoint to Trump making the call.

    The Democratic response to Trump revealing he had made the calls was:

    1. He lied when he said Obama didn’t make calls.

    a. When Trump said he didn’t call General Kelly, the Democratic rebuttal was:

    i. General Kelly keeps his feelings private! Why’d you talk about him?

    The second line of attack was:

    2. What Trump said in the call wasn’t good.

    So, there!

    Trump’s response, after mulling it over overnight, was:

    She is lying, and I can prove it.

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  137. Like I said, narco..you should know

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  138. 120. I don’t think they liked it when Nixon used talking points when making a telephone call.

    138. Typical Trump, “on the other hand”

    He knew what was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  139. It’s typical, Sammy but we’re in danger of normalizing his pathologies.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  140. Sammy,

    My earlier link was broken so here is a corrected link. I guess you are correct that saying “He didn’t even know his name” isn’t the same as getting the name wrong, but I said it to mean there was a problem with the name. I think that problem was avoidable.

    DRJ (15874d)

  141. He knew what was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway

    Is there transcript of this or are we still going on hearsay, very likely biased recollection, and speculation? Clarification of speculation? Is that a thing? Imagine if Trump did this.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  142. 143.

    I guess you are correct that saying “He didn’t even know his name” isn’t the same as getting the name wrong, but I said it to mean there was a problem with the name. I think that problem was avoidable.

    You have to have some experience, or anticipate what’s going to happen to avoid that. But trump just let himself be directed, like he already knew what he was doing.

    Now we’re hearing that the name was La David T. Johnson. I’m wondering myself if La is part of his name.

    The first linked worked – at least we still have “he didn’t even know his name.”

    Even Z know. Which probably meant there were other things he didn’t know.

    Probably that he also wasn’t familiar with any details about the incident where he got killed, or why the body was in a closed casket she wouldn’t be allowed to open…

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  143. “Probably that he also wasn’t familiar with any details about the incident where he got killed, or why the body was in a closed casket she wouldn’t be allowed to open…”

    All the more reason for Trump to tread cautiously, but that would be normal

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  144. He knew what was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway

    145. CFarleigh (5b282a) — 10/18/2017 @ 9:59 am

    Is there transcript of this or are we still going on hearsay, very likely biased recollection, and speculation? Clarification of speculation? Is that a thing? Imagine if Trump did this.

    There might be a transcript in the White House, (although maybe what they transcribe are only calls with foreign leaders) and there were probably people who heard it on the White House, or military side, but we’re relying on what the Congresswoman said.

    But it’s a relatively brief snippet, and it sounds very very much like Donald Trump. There could be some missing words.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  145. 147. When has Donald Trump bothered to inform himself more before he begins talking?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  146. Sammy..I said normal and he’s far from..

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  147. He does sometimes inform himself after he has spoken, and then often he’s looking for backing justifying what he said, and sometimes it is not so wrong.

    Sometimes he actually spends a day or two studying or being briefed on some matters. I think he did on North Korea – after some weeks – and on Iran.

    But he’ll still speak most of the time off the cuff – off the top of his head. His head may be a little bit fuller after a while, but it is still off the top of his head. Rarely, he gives prepared speeches.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  148. Out his butt

    You forgot that Sammy.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  149. The URL I use had abad word in it, and it got sent into moderation even though it was not seen. I’ll try again using TINYURL/

    One thing about Obama and General Kelly. When a president or the military contacts a family, it’s only the next of kin. And the next of kin means whoever is authorized to determine the burial place.

    Wonkette says General Kelly’s son Robert had a`wife named Heather, and the general never would have been spoken to.

    Obama Would Have Called John Kelly’s Son’s WIFE, Not His FATHER, Donald Trump, You F?@#$%Z DOLT

    Now that could be bad policy. Parents often complain they can’t get any information. They’re not next of kin.

    They do it maybe in part because of the possibility of family disagreements.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  150. 152. No, off the top of his head. It’s not always completely wrong.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  151. But it’s a relatively brief snippet, and it sounds very very much like Donald Trump. There could be some missing words.

    Preceded by:
    but we’re relying on what the Congresswoman said.

    The genesis of all of this controversy is what an exceptionally biased, race-baiting congresswoman has said. Note, I am NOT saying that her recollection is inaccurate. I simply do not know. But surely if we are using the standard of “it sounds very very much like Donald Trump”, where is the equivalent level of speculation (in the opposite direction) as to the veracity of this congresswoman’s statement? By any reasonable standard, her credibility should at least be as low as his.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  152. @127. Ahhh, but was that an original thought by Reagan or was it scripted; quilled by the likes of Peggy Noonan or such before he uttered it? Thing is, we can be sure the wind broken by our current Captain when he’s riffing into a phone- or microphone- are his brain farts and his alone.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  153. Maybe this is a good example of why Presidents generally don’t make condolence calls right away — because they don’t know if the calls will be welcome or if the family is in a state to talk about their loss. A condolence letter can be retained or discarded, depending on the family’s wishes.

    DRJ (15874d)

  154. This is a very difficult part of the president’s job (or it should be if the president is psychologically normal). The real problem here is that Trump didn’t get help with the task. He knows he rubs a lot of people the wrong way with his steamroller manner, and should have gotten some assistance and even rehearsed how to handle both this conversation and the discussion about it.

    This would include some analysis of how Obama and Bush handled this, and if those efforts worked.

    As a leader, he has to have some self awareness and get help from his team when he his normal method of jumping in very quickly and with a lot of personality isn’t a good idea. Like DRJ said, I don’t think it’s necessary to rush in with a phone call anyway, but Trump is very invested in our 24 hour news cycle.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  155. The Trump Defense: Lincoln never made calls and Washington never phoned home.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  156. On the one hand, I know that there is a Democrat War Room working feverishly to discredit Trump. It would be easy for them to manufacture Trumpisms galore. As our host said “It sounds exactly like something he’d say.”

    On the other hand, why bother when he’ll kick own-goals all the livelong day.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  157. As long as we are talking about lack of class and meanness to a service widow, how do you think making this a national story makes Mrs Johnson feel? What happened was a personal matter between her and Trump.

    Why is nobody dissing this Congresswoman for using the conversation to score political points? This must be incredibly humiliating to the widow to have her grief weaponized by people who did not give a rat’s ass for her husband while he served.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  158. The real problem here is that Trump didn’t get help with the task.

    I get the idea that he was pushed into making these calls and really did not want to, and they went about as badly as you’d expect with someone like Trump doing an unpleasant chore.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  159. If our current president had spoken the same words how would they have been received?

    I, for one, would be checking the basement for pods.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  160. Why is nobody dissing this Congresswoman for using the conversation to score political points?

    I am.

    nk (dbc370)

  161. Mr. M i think President Trump’s genuinely bought into the fetish conservatives have with the military and dead soldiers

    there’s nothing wrong with that per se if you’re a president

    I do think though it’s part of the same phenomenon we see where he doesn’t understand why staffing up with a bunch of trashy generals from the sleazy obama military is a less than optimal choice at best

    but what’s curious is how he’s once again managed to bring out the worst in people

    everyone in that limo’s pretty much disgraced themselves by what they said or by their complicit silence

    and they’ve made it much more likely that people will increasingly take a hard pass on the whole let’s bend over butt-backwards for the families of dead soldiers thing

    so maybe something good will come out of this

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  162. All a distraction… just another example of the Democrat’s contempt for our military. Meanwhile, news of the crimes of the Obama administration rise to the top like scum…

    “It turns out the Obama administration knew the Russians were engaged in bribery, kickbacks and extortion in order to gain control of US atomic resources — yet still OK’d that 2010 deal to give Moscow control of one-fifth of America’s uranium. This reeks.

    Peter Schweizer got onto part of the scandal in his 2015 book, “Clinton Cash”: the gifts of $145 million to the Clinton Foundation, and the $500,000 fee to Bill for a single speech, by individuals involved in a deal that required Hillary Clinton’s approval.

    The New York Times confirmed and followed up on Schweizer’s reporting — all of it denounced by Hillary as a partisan hit job.

    But now The Hill reports that the FBI in 2009 had collected substantial evidence — eyewitnesses backed by documents — of money-laundering, blackmail and bribery by Russian nuclear officials, all aimed at growing “Vladimir Putin’s atomic-energy business inside the United States” in violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

    The bureau even flagged the routing of millions from Russian nuclear officials to cutouts and on to Clinton Inc.

    Hillary Clinton, again, sat on a key government body that had to approve the deal — though she now claims she had no role in a deal with profound national security implications, and during the campaign called the payments a coincidence.

    The Obama administration — anxious to “reset” US-Russian relations — kept it all under wraps, refusing to tell even top congressional intelligence figures. . . .

    There’s more: Until September 2013, the FBI director was Robert Mueller — who’s now the special counsel probing Russian meddling in the 2016 election. It’s hard to see how he can be trusted in that job unless he explains what he knew about this Obama-era cover-up.”

    https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/278680/

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  163. Florida Congresswoman, Haiku. Not Texas.

    DRJ (15874d)

  164. Be thankful for that, DRJ.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  165. True, but she is who Sheila hacksin lee wants to grow up into.

    narciso (d1f714)

  166. He agrees with you about ray Moore

    https://www.saulmontes-bradley.com/latin-ballat/

    narciso (d1f714)

  167. Why is nobody dissing this Congresswoman for using the conversation to score political points? This must be incredibly humiliating to the widow to have her grief weaponized by people who did not give a rat’s ass for her husband while he served.

    I don’t know how the family feels about it. I tend to think it’s a low move on her part. But I could be wrong. She seems to be a family friend and it’s possible the family sees her as speaking up on her behalf.

    I see that Sarah F*ckabee Sanders claims that John Kelly claims that the call was respectful, without quoting Kelly (in the story I say) as denying the specific verbiage about which the Congresswoman complains. This hearsay will be accepted by the same partisans who decried the Congresswoman’s statement as hearsay even though she says she heard it with her own ears. Meanwhile many people who screech about the Congresswoman’s invasion of the widow’s privacy will quietly ignore what Trump did to Kelly, even though it is far more clear that Trump’s invasion of privacy was in no way on behalf of Kelly while we don’t know that about the Congresswoman.

    Just another day in partisanland, in other words.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  168. Count me with those who aren’t offended, even though I acknowledge that the “knew what he signed up for” part was awkward.

    I guess to please some NeverGorsuch types here, Trump should just read a lightly modified Bixby Letter over the phone?

    Jeesh. No wonder I seldom darken this website anymore. There’s so much more to go after Trump about (and, frankly, to post about generally) than his ham-handed attempt to console a military widow.

    I am guessing Ben burn is the sole Never Gorsuch type here. Can you cite me another?

    There’s no greater contribution than the one made by the guy who comes here to say why he rarely comes here. Come here more often and you’ll see me cite other reasons to go after Trump — as well as reasons to praise him (posts that, I feel certain, are ignored by the types whose comments I no longer read).

    Finally, I don’t really care whether you or I are offended. My concern is for the widow. As past presidents have learned, sometimes there is nothing they can say. Perhaps Trump did trip over himself and use the “he knew what he signed up for” comment but sort of meant well by it, and it was taken badly by a group in mourning.

    Indeed, the whole incident with the widow is nowhere near as obviously crass and disturbing as Trump’s behavior towards Kelly. Which is why I’m guessing that pro-Trump partisans here probably pretend that never happened.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  169. I saw a clip of Trump denying today that he said what the mom and the Congresswoman accuse him of saying. He did not seem able to remember Myeisha Johnson’s name. Coming on the heels of an accusation that he didn’t even know Sgt. La David Johnson’s name, he would have done well to bone up on that fact, I think.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  170. 159. Dustin Dustin (ba94b2) — 10/18/2017 @ 12:11 pm

    This is a very difficult part of the president’s job (or it should be if the president is psychologically normal). The real problem here is that Trump didn’t get help with the task. He knows he rubs a lot of people the wrong way with his steamroller manner, and should have gotten some assistance and even rehearsed how to handle both this conversation and the discussion about it.

    Trump acknowledge that he needs help with this, that he can’t do naturally what maybe some other people could??

    The New York Times had a story today on the top of page A20 about people trying to give condolences to the families of fallen troops saying the wrong thing all the time:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/18/us/politics/fallen-troops-families-meeting-presidents.html?_r=0

    This would include some analysis of how Obama and Bush handled this, and if those efforts worked.

    As a leader, he has to have some self awareness and get help from his team when he his normal method of jumping in very quickly and with a lot of personality isn’t a good idea. Like DRJ said, I don’t think it’s necessary to rush in with a phone call anyway, but Trump is very invested in our 24 hour news cycle.

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  171. This would include some analysis of how Obama and Bush handled this, and if those efforts worked.

    As a leader, he has to have some self awareness and get help from his team when he his normal method of jumping in very quickly and with a lot of personality isn’t a good idea. Like DRJ said, I don’t think it’s necessary to rush in with a phone call anyway, but Trump is very invested in our 24 hour news cycle.

    It wasn’t rushed, although maybe the decision was.

    Above, @51 I said it was two weeks after he died. I mistakenly thought Oct 4 was a Tuesday and read that the call took place this Tuesday.(I had a question about that)

    The incident happened on Wednesday October 4. Trump was first asked about this, or spoke about this, to reporters on Monday, October 16. That’s when he said he thought most presidents did not make telephone calls. That was the day he made the call apparently. I haven’t got that straight yet. I would have to go by the majority of news reports, or by what news report is more likely to be correct, given the time and sequence of each report and what exactly it says. Sort of like triangulation against the truth.

    They are only now beginning to investigate what went wrong, or if there could have been missed clues that they were going to be ambushed. There were several hundred U.S. troops training others in Niger, which was thought to be safe zone, more or less, from Boko Haram in Nigeria. This was not supposed to be a dangerous patrol. Which raises the question: Then why do any patrol at all?

    They called for air support and some French Mirage jets arrived but they were too mixed up together by the time they arrived for dropping a bomb to be useful.

    Two others (I thought 3 others, but the CBS Evening News mentioned only two) were killed. Sgt. La David T. Johnsons’s body was not recovered till two days later. And maybe it took some more time for DNA tests to verify it was him.

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  172. 174. Patterico (115b1f) — 10/18/2017 @ 8:02 pm

    I saw a clip of Trump denying today that he said what the mom and the Congresswoman accuse him of saying. He did not seem able to remember Myeisha Johnson’s name.

    Trump said:

    “I didn’t say what that congresswoman said. Didn’t say it at all – she knows it. I had a very nice conversation with the woman, the wife, who sounded like a lovely woman.”

    The congresswoman made a point of noting that she had a name. I suppose this was meant as a demonstration of feminism.

    The I saw a clip on the CBS Evening News of the Congresswoman herself using the word “wife” and not the name Myeisha. This was in the context of showing her complaining that trump had not once used the word “hero.”

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  173. “I didn’t say what that congresswoman said. Didn’t say it at all – she knows it. I had a very nice conversation with the woman, the wife, who sounded like a lovely woman.”
    The congresswoman made a point of noting

    Sammy: it’s quite possible that’s the way he remembers it. He’s a clod.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  174. Coming on the heels of an accusation that he didn’t even know Sgt. La David Johnson’s name, he would have done well to bone up on that fact, I think.

    This is what hapepned:

    Trump kept on saying “Your Guy” and apparently never used his name.

    Previously, I had speculated @133 that maybe it went something like this: “uh, uh, what was his name?

    What happens is I fill out details. The report tosses out a picture and I fill it out. Then I get one new fact, and the scenario changes. A newspaper today gave afuller quiite of what the Congresswoman said.

    The picture that is now thrown up is that Trump wasn’t sure if they were married!”

    Obviously, “your husband” would have been better, and might sound less distant than using a name.

    Now while I think she never would have gotten the call if they weren’t legally married, Trump would probably not know such a fact, if that is the case.

    I think it also may be true that Trump is used to dealing with people who are close to each other, but aren’t married (he himself was with Melania for six years before they married) and said it out of habit.

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  175. For posterity, here is what General Kelly had to say about Trump’s phone call, which he witnessed. He is very clear with respect to the circumstances around the phone call and the way in which Trump comported himself.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps5ttDzWBaY

    There was no “Monstrous Insensitivity” on the part of Trump. I am not holding my breath that those words will be retracted.

    Lenny (5ea732)

  176. Florida Congresswoman, Haiku. Not Texas.
    DRJ (15874d) — 10/18/2017 @ 6:04 pm

    Hundreds of hats, no cattle. Easy mistake to make.

    She looks like she should be spinning on a wheel in front of Bronco Billy.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  177. Why is nobody dissing this Congresswoman for using the conversation to score political points?

    I am.
    nk (dbc370) — 10/18/2017 @ 5:49 pm

    #metoo

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  178. The best deals in Florida are at Miami Gardens Chevrolet and Kia. And that ain’t no bull.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  179. That congress-cowgirl is lying. The voice was asking if she signed up for Onstar.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  180. DRJ — if you haven’t, I would strongly suggest that you watch Kelly’s statement, or read the transcript that the NYT has posted.

    For you to come to this subject, and take away from it that Kelly confirmed Trump is a liar — is just stunning.

    I must conclude that you have not seen the video or read the transcript. If you have, and its still your first reaction that Kelly confirmed Trump is a liar, then all hope for you is lost.

    You’re way too far into the gallon of Patterico Koolaid.

    shipwreckedcrew (7e501e)

  181. shipwreckedcrew (7e501e) — 10/19/2017 @ 4:21 pm

    DRJ — if you haven’t, I would strongly suggest that you watch Kelly’s statement, or read the transcript that the NYT has posted.

    For you to come to this subject, and take away from it that Kelly confirmed Trump is a liar — is just stunning.

    If all you did was watch Kelly’s statement, you wouldn’t come away with that impression.

    But if you compared it to Trump’s tweet, that’s what he did. Of course Trump might have a very good memory of what he said.

    There are now recorded condolence calls from Trump online (recorded by the family)

    One, a video, from April and one from October 4.

    There doesn’t seem t e be any problem with them.

    Sammy Finkelman (de36da)


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