Irony Overload: A Literally Incredible Development
Two weeks after Hillary Clinton clinched the Democratic presidential nomination last year, Bill Clinton arranged a secret meeting at his Harlem office with a lawyer who has connections to ISIS, according to confidential government records described to FoxNews.com.
The previously unreported meeting was also attended by Sidney Blumenthal, according to interviews and the documents, which were outlined by people familiar with them.
Mr. Clinton and Mr. Blumenthal were told that the ISIS-connected lawyer had information damaging to the candidacy of Ms. Clinton’s opponent, Donald J. Trump, who was then the Republican nominee for president.
Mr. Clinton was informed in an email in advance of the meeting that the material was part of an effort by ISIS to aid his wife’s candidacy, according to three people with knowledge of the email.
You’ll have to click the link to understand just how literally incredible the story is. The irony of this story following directly on the heels of the Donald Trump Jr. revelations regarding Russia — well, it leaves the reader with the feeling that it is nothing short of impossible to believe.
And of course, it’s not true. I just made it up. It’s . . . wait for it . . . FAKE NEWS!! Actual, literal fake news.
In fact, it is of course, the Donald Trump Jr. story, slightly altered. All I did was switch the names of the preferred candidate and the non-preferred candidate — and the identity of the enemy power.
But if this story had happened, everyone here would be OK with it. I know this, because I have read the arguments by commenters assuring me that there is no problem meeting secretly with possible agents of an enemy power to get dirt on your presidential opponent. Since those arguments are driven by principle and not by partisanship, there would be no problem with the scenario described in the above fake news article.
Bringing us back to reality, Jonah Goldberg has an excellent piece on all of this, and I agree with almost every word:
I’ve found the whole feeding frenzy unappealing. The Democrats are clearly in full partisan mode, framing every inconvenient, benign, or even potentially exculpatory detail as a smoking gun. The whole “hacked the election” formulation, used both by the Democrats and by allegedly objective reporters, is a misleading bit of hyperbole. Is “meddled with” or “interfered in” too big a concession to reality?
Meanwhile, there’s no shortage of hyperbole among those most eager to defend Trump on the Russia story. I’ve lost count of how many adjectives Sean Hannity uses to describe the media these days. I think it’s the “Alt-Left, Globalist Mainstream, Deep State, Destroy Trump, Get a Two-Liter Bottle of Pepsi When You Order a MAGA Pizza Media” now. More seriously, the rush to say there’s nothing to the collusion story is a mirror of the rush to insist the story is everything. There’s just not much room to say, “Maybe there’s something here. Let’s wait and see.”
. . . .
What I just don’t understand is how conservatives can mock, scoff at, and ridicule the idea there might be some legs to this story when Donald Trump does everything he can to make it look like there might be a there there. He fired the FBI director. He told the Russian ambassador he did it to thwart the Russia investigation. He told Lester Holt the same thing. Donald Trump is clearly obsessed with the Russia story and with forging a bromance with Vladimir Putin. Both his son and his son-in-law have ties to Russia and keep having to revise their denials, making anyone who believed them in the first place look foolish.
My main difference with Jonah is that his attitude is entirely “wait and see.” That is mostly my attitude, with one difference. Ever since I have seen the argument advanced that there would be nothing to this story, even if everything alleged were true, I have been fascinated that people would argue that, and I have wanted to tease out the implications.
Hence this post and its FAKE NEWS!! story.
Again, these are not arguments about the legalities, but about morality and how the American public would have reacted if a) all this was true and b) all this was known before the election. Maybe they wouldn’t have cared. There was already quite a lot they didn’t care about.
So tell me. If the scenario I describe above had actually happened, would you be OK with it? Really?
Really? (Patterico tilts his head and looks meaningfully at the reader.) Really?
And if not, what’s the difference?
[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]
Ding.
Patterico (115b1f) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:39 amKinda figured something was up when “Hillary Clinton clinched the Republican presidential nomination…”
J.P. (9e0433) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:44 amGreetings:
This just in from my Department of Redundancy Department:
“Interfered” how ??? “Meddled” with what ???
11B40 (6abb5c) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:45 amShit. Thanks.
Patterico (115b1f) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:45 amnevertrump filth like Ben Sasse would’ve thrown his harvardtrash diploma into a dumpster fire for the chance to take a meeting with ISIS that had a 0.004% chance of giving him some dirt on Mr. Trump I think
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:52 amHappy to be of service. Never happened to me, of course… LOL.
J.P. (9e0433) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:52 amWell,we’re in an actual shooting conflict with ISIS but only a pre-wrestling staredown with Russia. That would make a big difference.
Mind you, so far in this episode of Donny Jr going rogue, the evidence does not point to any actual collusion, nor to any actual involvement with the Russian government. The Russian lawyer may have been acting on her own initiative, trying to get her own link to the Trump campaign.*
And I say that as a person who is as firmly NoTrump as anyone else here.
*Unless something broke on this morning’s news I haven’t seen.
kishnevi (682c47) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:03 amthere’s no America where it’s feasible or even imaginable for a Democrat campaign to receive the kind of petty scrutiny Mr. Trump’s campaign is having to endure
nevertrump filth like Jonah Goldberg think this is okey and also dokey
but me I’m not so sanguine
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:06 ammeanwhile you know where you can find people actually colluding with ISIS?
the US Military lol
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:09 amOf course thats,not the whole story but still
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2017/07/10/hume-trump-jr-s-meeting-russian-lawyer-farce-almost-laughable-not-collusion/
Yes,there was,the fellow who had,soldier of Allah on his business cards, who did a PowerPoint on jihad, squirrel.
narciso (880ffc) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:17 amNo, only a child would be excited about either story. Both have the forms of … nothing much.
The obvious giveaway is the prominence of classic weasel words like “meddle”, “hack”, and even “connections”. These essentially meaningless words are used when someone wants to spread rumors by implying wild accusations. The idea is to make innocuous – or even not-so-innocuous, but still entirely trivial – things seem to the casual reader to be hints of seismic crises; imaginary tips of nonexistent icebergs.
Why does anyone bother with such silliness? Because it’s easy to do, and, like a Nigerian e-mail scam, it sometimes works. But it’s all just manipulation of a gullible audience … and not even terribly clever manipulation.
tom swift (cc4f65) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:20 amClearly we have to impose economic and other sanctions on ISIS – such as stopping Exxon Mobil’s investments in their oil business, kick their ambassadors out of our country (but not before confiscating their machetes), stop allowing the adoption of ISIS orphans, and mount a counter cyber-attack against their government institutions and corporations (unless Trump wants to partner with them on cyber security).
Lenny (5ea732) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:23 amCollusion is heard a lot in antitrust cases. First sentence of Sherman Act:
How that became “collusion”, I did not spend the time to find out. Possibly a plaintiff’s argument that was adopted in a court’s decision?
nk (dbc370) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:25 amPlot thickening to the point that some are choking off the refluxive bile of Trumps power lunches.
But this not going to go well. And Reconstruction will not be as generous.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:26 amThis would be a big yawner about Hillary because she’s already done much worse.
Ingot (984b6e) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:27 amFor Christ sakes, they sent the a-hole sibling, Kush, and soon-to-be-gone Manafort, all disposable people in the long run. Trump Sr and the true braintrust knew it was a high risk low reward proposition.
urbanleftbehind (3538cb) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:30 amThere is a Breitbart/HumaHack thread through this Toga.
http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/near-proof-donald-trump-knew-jr-meeting-kremlin/3792/
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:32 amWOODSTEIN got impatient and took a risky shot at Mitchell and missed. Don’t spill your candy in the lobby before the main feature.
https://www.emptywheel.net/2017/07/10/be-careful-how-you-define-collusion-on-the-veselnitskaya-bombshell-and-the-steele-dossier/
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:39 amLike kishnevi am also uncomfortable with the scenario outlined by Patterico above.
Also like kishnevi would note there is a difference between meeting with someone who has links to illegal non-governmental groups(be it ISIS or the IRA) and someone meeting with someone affiliated with a sovereign state or government body (did Ted Kennedy ever get around to having following up on that letter he sent to the Kremlin during the Reagan years?).
But am not American so take above with pound of salt.
JP (f1742c) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:43 amFair point, but think Had Hillary Won the Election we’d be going down an entirely different path regardless of how angry the #NeverHillary people were.
crazy (11d38b) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:04 amYeah, because ISIS and Russia are the same thing. You can do better than this.
Kevin M (752a26) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:05 amIt should be noted that Russia is part of Western civilization. ISIS not so much. There are other differences.
Kevin M (752a26) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:07 amCloser:
Kevin M (752a26) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:09 amWould that be quite so risable?
Kevin M (752a26) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:10 amRussia in this scenario is more like Mexico that germany. Unless we really want to go with it, like queen annes war
narciso (880ffc) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:10 amActually sid vicious stovepiped from drumheller and Murray was exactly like this.
narciso (880ffc) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:12 amThe big difference here (and I largely agree with Jonah and you) is the drumbeat of tenuous speculation and constant generation/creation of “smoking guns” out of the media. To just let it go unchecked is to lose any semblance of control over the narrative.
It simply has to be addressed, or defended, in some manner.
jaydub (434178) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:13 amCall it queen Hillary’s war, for atribution dake.
narciso (880ffc) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:19 amI blame OHillary.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:21 amjaydub (434178) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:13 am
Things are moving fast….DT Jr just dropped the entire email thread. Shows he and Veselnitskaya lied about the meeting.
I suspect his lawyer had him dump the email to get out ahead of the story. Grab the popcorn, I’m sure there are more shoes to be dropped.
Lenny (5ea732) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:25 amit’s hilarious he dropped the whole email chain into the public domain so the trashy-ass senators are more or less relegated to the back seat of this discussion, and by the time they get to do their trashy-ass senate hearings for the cameras it’ll just be treated like yet another trashy-ass senate clown show
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:31 amBake yourself another yellowcake?
http://thediplomat.com/2017/07/why-is-russia-denying-that-north-korea-launched-an-icbm/
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:38 amNo, I wouldn’t be ‘OK’ with your imaginary scenario, Patterico. And, I don’t have any objections to Donald Jr’s actual meeting. Further, I don’t the two positions as inconsistent.
It’s exactly the sort of thing we’ve come to expect from Slick Willy and Twisted Hillary. Meeting with ISIS is nothing new, the Muslim Brotherhood has long kept an intimate confidant inside Hillary’s inner most circle. Her secret shipments of arms from Libya spawned ISIS. They owe her, big time, so digging up dirt on any of her opponents would amount to a obligatory quid pro quo.
Where as Donald Jr’s meeting appears to be nothing but a cheep scam by a money grubbing lawyer to push her own pet scam.
I’d take a close look at the Brit who emailed the proposed meeting to Trump’s son with the intriguing bait. Is this Brit in cahoots with the thoroughly discredited Brit who concocted the phony bed pissing dossier?
Inquiring minds and all…
ropelight (a7d89c) — 7/11/2017 @ 9:57 amThe actual emails string, as well as DTJr’s statement this morning do change things a bit, but I still don’t think you get to the point of “universal condemnation” that is being hoped for.
Rather than substitute ISIS, try substituting in Israel and a Jewish lawyer from New York with ties to the Netanyahu government.
All the other facts remain the same.
Where does the needle on the outrage meter land?
I’ve posited this alternative a couple times, with no response from anyone.
Israel prefers Donald Trump over Hillary.
Israel has information that would damage Hillary’s campaign.
The Obama Admin. inserted itself into the last Israeli election.
If Trump Jr. meets with the Jewish lawyer in New York to receive the information from the Israeli government, do we have the same reaction?
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:08 am“It’s not the One Thing. It’s the Dismal Tide”
No country for Old Traitors.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:13 amthe Brit who emailed the proposed meeting to Trump’s son with the intriguing bait
you know who else is British is that Christopher Steele guy
He’s the guy who wrote the discredited pee-pee dossier for John McCain
the bogus dossier torture-turd McCain slipped to his corrupt FBI friend Jim Comey, who used it to trick a FISA court into approving illegal spying for political purposes
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:19 amConservative angst over the surveillance state…prickly but tardy. A dearth of good causes no doubt.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:22 amI think something noteworthy from the actual email string, and the statement put out by DTJr — a comment on the fact he did this next — sheds a bit of light on the whole affair from the perspective of Trump Inc., which DTJr. clearly represents.
He notes in his statement that the meeting was requested and agreed to before the “Russian fever was in vogue” as he described it.
Also, he makes reference to “Emin” in Russia who is someone he knows from the Miss Universe Pageant, and describes as having a “highly respected business there.”
IMO this reflects a POV of someone who has a history of doing business — legitimate business — in Russia, with Russian business people he considers to be legitimate. He didn’t view the episode through the lens of an intelligence agent or law enforcement agent who would have been made suspicious by the nature of the arrangement, and the provenance of the information.
Given that Trump Inc. has done business and attempted to do business in Russian for many years, it doesn’t surprise me that DTJr’s actions seem to reflect an attitude that doing business in Moscow is not meaningfully different than doing business in Brussels or Prague. I think you could substitute in “Belgian Government” or “Czech Government” for the “Russian Government”, and I don’t think it would have been any different in his mind.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:23 amTwo weeks after Hillary Clinton clinched the Democratic presidential nomination last year, Bill Clinton arranged a secret meeting at his Harlem office with a lawyer who has connections to China, according to confidential government records described to FoxNews.com.
The previously unreported meeting was also attended by Sidney Blumenthal, according to interviews and the documents, which were outlined by people familiar with them.
Didn’t that actually happen?
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446
NJRob (7f4bec) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:25 amI think its almost certain that he sent the email string out and his statement via twitter without clearing it with his attorney first.
I can’t imagine an experienced attorney agreeing that Twitter would be the best platform for releasing either one. This isn’t an instance when the person wanting to get out info needed to go over the top of the media to do so. A straight press release, along with full-sized printouts of the actual email string would have been just as effective.
And the first thing an experienced attorney always tells a client in situations such as this is “Let all statements go out over my name — don’t create any more “statements” that you might have to answer for later.”
By sending out his statement, DTJr. has created another account that can be used against him in the future if things ever come to that. Telling a client doing so is ok runs against everything I’ve learned in 30 years. So I suspect this was done impulsively by him.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:31 am‘Legitimate bizness in Russia.”
Part of this problem is the general smarmyness of his promises and obligations, like debt and repayment. If you have to see Tony Kafkasoprano because no one else will lend you cash and the VIG requires your cooperation, all that stops you is ethics. No problema.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:32 amActually the Ukrainians might be the fourth party in the deal, steel is likevthe fin chatacterter in Alex dryden’s tales.
narciso (d1f714) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:32 amLet me give you a heads up: Russia is not an enemy of the USA. As much as the neverTrumpers want it to be true, it is flat out FALSE. #FakeNews even.
You got the ISIS part right, though. They are an enemy of the USA. Thus, the rules are different for contacts with them.
Anon Y. Mous (19e1f2) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:35 amMore on point:
narciso (d1f714) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:43 amhttps://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/2017/07/11/exclusive-libyan-army-spox-says-obama-clinton-abandoned-the-libyan-people-to-the-terrorists/?singlepage=true
And there is a tie to the Manchester bomber, through harati
narciso (d1f714) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:47 amLet’s say the Trump campaign had knowledge of the Clinton emails prior to their release. What exactly is illegal about knowing of it? That’s what I don’t quite understand about this scenario. Unless Trump was connected to the hacking or agreed to some kind of Russian Quid Pro Quo deal, what’s the issue here?
Dejectedhead (0c7c2f) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:51 amSo hi
narciso (d1f714) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:58 amLay supported belhadj and the February 17th which collocated in killing Stevens doherty Smith, it al, which seems like treason again.
the medium is the message here Mr. shipwreck i think
an astute message at that, as nobody associates twitter with Important Communications Of Particular Noteworthiness
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 11:28 amAs long as your chasing the girnisch
narciso (4afb8c) — 7/11/2017 @ 11:48 amhttp://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5964f4dae4b09b587d624b28?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009
The email chain in full and unfiltered by HuffPo
kishnevi (4aeca3) — 7/11/2017 @ 12:05 pmhttp://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/11/trump-jr-shares-email-chain-that-set-up-meeting-with-russian-lawyer.html
If you want to see them completely au natural, the article directly links them.
There’s no comparison between Russia and ISIS. Trump & co have had some business dealings with Russia, but no one can or should have business dealings with ISIS.
Looking just at Russia, I have seen nothing about Trump half as damning as Hillary signing off on Russian takeover of 25% of the uranium supply after paying millions to the Clinton slush fund and Bill Clinton personally. In contrast, there has not even been a specific allegation about a Trump quid pro quo, let alone evidence of the same.
David Pittelli (c51465) — 7/11/2017 @ 12:13 pmMr. Hinderaker says it’s all good in the hood
i think the part in bold is the key takeaway here
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 12:33 pmDonald Trump Jr did not tell the full truth initially, although he claims both accounts are consistent with each otehr and his second account only gave more detail.
He’s now gone and told everything and even released the email chain that contained the email that resulted in that meeting.
He does not want to be accused of having been told about the hacking of the DNC.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 12:56 pmMeanwhile McCain and Kramer face questions as Russian tech mogul sues Buzzfeed in the US and UK for defamation and Buzzfeed subpoenas DNI, FBI and CIA for documents and testimony regarding the existence and scope of any investigation into Steele’s dossier.
crazy (11d38b) — 7/11/2017 @ 1:12 pmThis wasn’t anytjiong about hacking nor did it claim to be.
The alleged information was something like this:
Rob Goldstone to Donald J. Trump Jr, Friday June 3, 2016, at 10:36 am:
Goldstone asked Donald J. Trump Jr. what was the best way to handle this information, and if he would like to speak to Emin directly, and he said it was ultra sensitive so he sent it to Donald Trump Jr. first before attempted to send it to his father (where presumably other people would see it if he tried to use normal channels)
* To Donald J. Trump because hed bene his partner in the 2013 Miss Unoverse Pagaeant and to Donald J. Trump Jr. because he was negootiating to buold a Trump Tower in Moscow
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 1:15 pm46. Dejectedhead (0c7c2f) — 7/11/2017 @ 10:51 am
they’re tryinbg to say that information is a “thing of value” that’s illegal to accept from foreoigners but I don’t think so,. If it were any information that anyone gave to a campaign would have to be valued and recorded as a campaign contribution and limited to $2,500 per person
They’re basically hinting this is the tip of the iceberg. But as Rush Limbaugh argues, the email chain proves it is not.
There was nothing going on prior to that. If there was some kind of ongoing collusion, this would have been conveyed in the usual manner.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 1:15 pm#56. They’re really trying to link it to the campaign finance reform law?
Dejectedhead (0c7c2f) — 7/11/2017 @ 1:27 pmIMO, its a huge stretch of campaign finance laws to suggest that “information” is a “thing of value” as contemplated under the statute.
But that’s the angle the media punditocracy is attempting to take.
And its even more attenuated here because it seems pretty clear that there was no actual “information” to be had.
So the only thing that would be chargeable is a conspiracy to violate the campaign finance laws — assuming that the analysis saying “information” is a “thing of value” is correct, and I have my doubts.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 7/11/2017 @ 1:30 pmYes, what a terrible scenario that would rightly upset everyone. But, hang the Clinton name on it and no harm would come to the participants. The press, the media, connected politicians would put the fix in. That’s why I don’t give a damn about the Russian nonsense.
bud (b48f3e) — 7/11/2017 @ 1:31 pmWasn’t the Clinton campaign taking aid from an Australian liberal party when they sent volunteers to the United States to campaign on Mrs. Clinton’s behalf?
Wouldn’t that be a clearer violation of the campaign finance laws than “Collusion” on releasing information?
Dejectedhead (0c7c2f) — 7/11/2017 @ 1:34 pmI think it means that you have had enough coffee.
SPQR (a3a747) — 7/11/2017 @ 1:39 pmThe thing is, the morality and the wisdom of this depends both on the nature of the foriegn power and the nature of the opposing candidate.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 1:44 pmnational security demands we purge all the corrupt food stamp holdover trash from the federal government?
you’re damn right
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:00 pmThe White House pointed to an article in Politico from this January.
The Ukrainian government sent information to the Hillary Clinton campaugn and otehrs, which resuletd in the firing of Paul Manafort as Donald Trump’s campaign manager.
Google cache of January 11, 2017 Politico article entitled: Ukrainian efforts to sabotage Trump backfire
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:15 pmhttp://www.heritage.org/constitution/articles/1/essays/68/emoluments-clause
The etymology of ’emoluement’ is milling or ‘grinding’ corn and suggests mixing accounts or combining assets like grinding for two farmers as one for nefarious purpose..
“Ach! Another weasel word!”
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:22 pmSee, we don’t even have to imagine anything. No, not ISIS, not China, not Canadians, not Israel
It actually happened – with Ukraine.
But much more insulated from the candidate.
Only the information from Ukraine was mostly or entirely real, and Russia actually here was offering up nothing but lies, if that (because in the end we had someone apparently ad libbing nonsense)
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:22 pmThe one issue that has been raised by someone I know and respect in the intelligence community is that because DTJr. didn’t really appreciate how Russian intelligence works, what he didn’t understand from his reaction to the outreach was the Russian intelligence would read this as a signal that the Trump campaign was open to offers of assistance. It basically gave a “green-light” to any plans for the insertion of disinformation into the campaign by Russian intelligence operatives.
The offer saying the Russians wanted to assist the DT campaign can’t be read at face value — that description was the bait to see if DTJr. would bite. When he did, now the intelligence operatives knew that if played correctly, they had and opening that might be exploitable in the weeks and months ahead.
The fact that the lawyer ended up turning up with nothing is not surprising — she was used only to see if DTJr. would come to a meeting where he was promised something. She wasn’t intended to offer him anything.
So, what this does more than anything is not necessarily implicate DTJr. in having done anything nefarious or illegal, but it does suggest that the Russians were actively plotting and looking for opportunities to insert themselves into the campaign beyond the DNC hack and Podesta email phishing scam which was successful.
So in my mind it does raise a whole new level of questions about whether there is more out there. I think Carter Page was probably targeted in the same manner that DTJr was targeted, and he went even further by traveling to Russia.
None of this concedes that the Russians were able to actually exploit these opportunities — only that they were looking for exploitable situations and they found one or more.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:22 pmbosh and pickles
given the evidence this is nothing more than wholly mindless ginned-up hysteria
the kind what thickens CNN fake news propaganda slut Jake Tapper’s fluffernutter quite considerably
but it’s still just empty calories for butthurt failmerica elitist trash what find themselves disgusted by both democracy and their fellow americans, so they’re projecting an insanely convoluted occam-defying russian rape fantasy onto President Trump and his campaign
it’s also the kind of hysteria our trashy cowardly CIA sluts gin up routinely in other countries
and they’re certainly fanning the flames here
but it’s completely stupid and I’d caution you against buying into it cause it’s not as fraught with nuance as you might think
you’re being played, simple as that
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:35 pmbutthurt *failmerican* elitist trash i mean
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:37 pmWith all your legal training and experience and as an officer of the Court, shirley you understand that there was no intent in either case. It was not about what Trump, Jr./Clinton could do for their counterparts’ country, it was what those countries could do for them.
I could not more agree with you when it comes to fools who insist that they have proven a negative. How on earth can they know every possible scenario in any given situation?
Ed from SFV (3400a5) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:37 pmyou get a do-over on that one it’s kinda hard to follow the way you have it Mr. SFV
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:40 pmDon’t you mean Holy mindless?
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:40 pmlate Middle English: from Latin emolumentum, originally probably ‘payment to a miller for grinding grain,’ from emolere ‘grind up,’ from e- (variant of ex- ) ‘out, thoroughly’ + molere ‘grind.’
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:41 pmOne difference is that ISIS is a terror organization and Russia is a country with considerably more, and frequently more benign, issues with which we should deal.
Richard Aubrey (0d7df4) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:42 pmMuch more likely that something nefarious is going to happen when candidates deal with ISIS than with Russia.
I get your point, or at least your effort. But you need better fake news.
i’m just telling the truth is all Mr. burn
it’s not even my job
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:50 pmOne fact that did not become clear until a day or two had passed: Rob Goldstone, who set up the meeting, was also there. Unless he’s lying about that.
(I don’t know if we have the complete roster of attendance. There was also Donald J. Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, Paul Manafort and, of course, Natalya Veselnitskaya and there should have been another person with Natalya Veselnitskaya. The original plan also, as proposed by Goldstone on June 7, was that he would not sit in on the meeting. Maybe that was because of a conflict with something else at the original proposed time.)
Goldstone gave the New York Times his impression of the meeting:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-russia-email-candidacy.html
But there is a problem with Goldstone. He seems to have lied.
In one of his emails he had said it is “part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump – helped along by Aras and Emin.”
Now it is possible to understand that as Goldstone thinking that Aras and Emin Agalarov and maybe some others were succeeding in reversing Putin’s position from pro-Hillary to pro-Trump. But I mean documents coming from the top prosecutor in Russia? What is this he imagines, a power struggle in Russia??
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:54 pmThere’s another thing.
Somehow the information conveyed morphed from something very specific, including official Russian government documents about illegal campaign contributions from Russia or people in Russia to Hillary Clinton to be discussed further with Emin Agalarov to this unknown “Russian government attorney” carrying unknown information with her. A Russian government attorney
…who actually doesn’t technically woirk for the Russian government but ratehr for some important people there and state owned businesses. Except taht she probably did work for the Russian government.
The way Emin Agalarov hands it over to Natalya Veselnitskaya reminds me of how, in an FBI sting operation, one FBI agent hands it over to another.
The thing is, I don’t think the original purpose of all of this could have been merely to lobby for the repeal of the Magnitsky Act. There must have been a change of plans.
Did they get scared off because Jared Kushner (not someone they knew) was involved? Jared Kushner also seems to been the reason the back channel that Kislyak wanted to set up with Mike Flynn in November or December never took place.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 3:05 pmMarcy finally swinging..
“Had the NSA collected this email, they would have had high confidence Putin was affirmatively helping Trump. (This is a point Tait also made not long after I made it.) But Rogers has said there was something about the source of the prior intelligence supporting this point that led NSA to adopt a more conservative stance than FBI and CIA.
So, yeah, the dumbass son not only incriminated himself, but he did away with one of the few talking points the GOP had left.”
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 3:11 pmSammy,
Do not neglect the possibility the Russians determined Freddo was just too damned dumb for their purposes.
Rick Ballard (264a24) — 7/11/2017 @ 3:14 pm67. shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 7/11/2017 @ 2:22 pm So, what this does more than anything is not necessarily implicate DTJr. in having done anything nefarious or illegal, but it does suggest that the Russians were actively plotting and looking for opportunities to insert themselves into the campaign beyond the DNC hack and Podesta email phishing scam which was successful. I think they had already done that, with the appointment of Mike Flynn, although Mike Flynn didn’t become really important until later. But he had already started to get heavily involved as soon as Trump became the presumptive nominee. (Flynn had bene trying to get involved wiith anumber of Republican presdential candidates)
Trump was even considering Mike Flynn for Vice President!
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/who-potential-trump-vp-pick-michael-flynn-n606781
There could easily have been another connection besides this one through Agaralovs.
And then maybe also there was Manafort, although I think he wasn’t really a Russian agent, but somebody the Russians thought who might be influenced in the picking of people maybe.
Yes, an iceberg, but not the iceberg they are all out looking for.
That’s right – it’s more like Page being targeted, rather than recruited.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 3:27 pmEmin Agalarov is a 37-year-old Azerbaijani who produces warbles from his throat in a pleasing-enough fashion
he is not colluder
are you people have crazy head
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 3:32 pm“Crown Prosecutor of Russia” should give any person who wants to be allowed to manage his own affairs, let alone take part in a Presidential campaign, a hint that the communication he is receiving is the equivalent of a Nigerian prince letter.
nk (dbc370) — 7/11/2017 @ 3:45 pm— Hey, guys, a client of mine who is a burglar has a Rolex that he can sell to you for one-tenth the retail price. Interested?
nk (dbc370) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:02 pm— Well, we’d like to look at it.
—
—
— Well, will you buy it?
— No, it’s not a real Rolex, just a Chinese piece of junk. Your burglar friend is nothing but a crook.
chinese are all colluder
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:07 pmGoldstone is a Brit. He probably had no idea of the actual title, and therefore plugged in the British equivalent.
kishnevi (6a5d3c) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:14 pmExactly, kishnevi. Now, wouldn’t a guy “in the know” know the actual title?
But, wait, there’s more. I took a CLE course in 409 (Nigerian prince) scams. The scammers put in “tells”, like this one, to weed out the intelligent and suspicious, so they won’t waste their time with someone intelligent enough to question whether Russia has a Crown Prosecutor.
nk (dbc370) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:30 pm82 nk (dbc370) — 7/11/2017 @ 3:45 pm
That actually may be a minor error. Rob Goldstone is British or originallty British and that would be the title in Great Britain.
Emin Agalarov pprobably used the Russian title, Prosecutor General, [Генеральный Прокурор Российской Федерации] – I think it’s been called Procutor general – and Rob Goldstone attempted to “translate” it, without doing too much thinking.
Even with the end of Communism, Russia is still not going to have a “Crown Prosecutor.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutor_General_of_Russia
A somewhat more glaring discrepancy is the idea that a lawyer was going to fly in from Moscow – and then we learn she is scheduled to be in court in New York at the original proposed time of the appointment. I just wonder if she was flying in from Moscow at all or was in the United States the whole time. That could be checked, and the Senate Intelligence Committee (and otehrs) no doubt will do that.
Tue June 7, 2016 at 4:20 Rob Goldstone writes:
Wed Jun 8 2016 at 10:34 am Rob Goldstone writes:
At 11:18 am Wed June 8 2016 he writes:
Donald trump Jr had suggested 3 pm that day.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:37 pmA somewhat larger (incomplete?)link to the email chain.
https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/884789839522140166/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnbc.com%2F2017%2F07%2F11%2Ftrump-jr-shares-email-chain-that-set-up-meeting-with-russian-lawyer.html
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:38 pmDJT Jr.’s defenders have a lot of it right — the details are different, Isis is an avowed enemy of the US while Russia is not, etc — but it still doesn’t invalidate Patterico’s basic point. My paraphrase: what we’re dealing with here are charges of emotional treason, forget the legal fine or not so fine points. The liberals see Trump as a class traitor whose very existence repudiates what they believe in. So we have things like the LA Times having decided an anti-Trump scare story must headline the front page, every day — today’s version is we’re apparently all going to get swept away by a tsunami because of Trump. But conservatives have been unhinged by Hillary since 1992, willing to believe anything critical of her.
Hard to believe any of this is going to end well even if DJT Jr. is cleared of everything except naivete. With everyone willing to believe the worst about the other side it almost doesn’t matter anymore what the facts are.
Bob L. (1bd99a) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:42 pmWhy didn’t the political pro, Manafort, see the red flags beforehand? He always seemed like an odd addition to the campaign going into the convention. I wonder who vouched for him given his activities in Ukraine that turned out to be more than was known at the time. Clinton and the dems were savvy enough to work through others to gain their oppo-intel from Ukraine. Whether this was a good or bad idea, why wasn’t Manafort smart enough to waive off Junior from this?
crazy (11d38b) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:43 pm86. nk (dbc370) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:30 pm
Emin Agalarov would know but Robb Goldstone might ot remeber the exact title he had used.
That might work for Rob Goldstone. So maybe in fact that kind oif title was used except that someone might think he was Anglicizing the title.
I think they may have “weeded out” Jared Kushner, perhaps because he was a newspaper publisher, and that’s why this turned into a big nothingburger.
The meeting was also delayed for one day while the Russians tried to figure out how to deal with new development (the presence of jared Kushner in the meeting)
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:43 pmI wonder what the New York Observer had published about Russia.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:44 pmWould you think I knew what I was talking about if I called Robert Morgenthau the State’s Attorney of Manhattan? Or Angela Corey the District Attorney of Seminole County?
nk (dbc370) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:45 pmWelp soon we’ll see the outcome from ‘facts’ and the blanket disrespect, victory at any cost, means to an end experiment in Idiocracy
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:45 pmI think you’re right in your Comment 91, Sammy. I think Don-don Jr. went to Jared and Manafort all hot and excited with this “great opportunity” that had just fallen into his lap and they sat in on the meeting to keep an eye on him.
nk (dbc370) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:49 pmnk
kishnevi (6a5d3c) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:51 pmThis was Goldstone, a media PR hack. He probably doesn’t know anything.
Donald Trump Jr. tells Sean Hannity: ‘In retrospect I probably would have done things a little differently’
Snort!
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:56 pmSo who’s gonna play Junior on SNL?
crazy (11d38b) — 7/11/2017 @ 4:58 pmShia Labeouf might be sober and/or out of jail by Saturday
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:01 pmSen. Graham: If A Foreign Govt Offers To Help Your Campaign, ‘The Answer Is No’
But check it out first…
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:01 pm.
Senator Graham the first thing you know about him is he’s a SENATOR
hello?
they’re all trash
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:02 pmGraham is jealous nobody would collude with him and no one remembers he ran for president.
crazy (11d38b) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:05 pmGREGG JARRETT: Trump Jr. has broken no law..
Yeah, yeah we know.
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:13 pmWell the highlight was when he trashed his phone.
http://lawnewz.com/opinion/why-donald-trump-jr-is-innocent-period/amp/
narciso (82af23) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:15 pmscummy fbi turdboy Robert Mueller needs to get himself under control
i’m seriously embarrassed for everyone who works at the sleazy corrupt FBI
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:15 pmNewsweek
Vice President Mike Pence appears to be distancing himself from the president as Donald Trump’s allies seemingly become further mired in the Russia investigation.
Pence, who started a political action committee in May with the help of his former campaign chairman, Nick Ayers, on Tuesday released a statement that has added to speculation that the former Indiana governor could be breaking away from Trump
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:16 pmwhat is it about Donald Trump Jr that seems so quintessentially 80s
it’s not *just* the hair
but he’s very very blane/early whit stillman/Dallas
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:17 pmMike Pence is a scummy bigot that out-bigoted ted cruz and delivered indiana for our president, Donald Trump
he is a great man, and I support whatever he chooses to do
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:19 pmDon Jr.: I’m the older brother, Jared, and I was stepped over!
nk (dbc370) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:21 pmJared: That’s the way the Don wants it.
Don Jr.: It ain’t the way I want it! I can handle things! I’m smart! Not like everybody says… like dumb… I’m smart and I want respect!
….
Jared: (to minion) I don’t want anything happening to him while Ivanka’s still living.
Are we presently at war with Russia?
If not, the scenario is not the same.
Beldar (fa637a) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:22 pmMorally or legally. I’m not arguing that Russia is okay. But Russia isn’t ISIS. It’s Russia.
Beldar (fa637a) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:22 pmImagine! Credibility turns out to have value when it’s cultivated.
If DJTJr came out strong for science..”Beeyootiful Sun! It always rises in the East”
Would you check in the am, just to be sure?
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:23 pmWe were always at war with East Asia…
Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:24 pmfailmerica isn’t exactly a moral and ethical bouquet of fresh cut daffodils
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:28 pmwe just recently arranged for the nuclear genocide of Israel, for example
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:29 pmyeah that was us
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:29 pmIf we just recently arranged for the nuclear suicide of Israel, then Trump is a Manchurian elevated to the Presidency by the machinations of the KGB.
nk (dbc370) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:46 pmnuclear *genocide*
nk (dbc370) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:47 pmMy reaction to this post is much like my reaction to this from Rich Lowry:
My reaction to this is to ask: Why, exactly, is it wildly out of bounds? What bounds are we talking about here?;
Whatever the bounds are, I’m pretty sure they’re different for Russia and for ISIS. China and Saudi Arabia and Israel and other foreign powers who are highly concerned with American politics also each probably have a different set of “bounds,” whether we’re talking criminal law or political legitimacy or any other kind of boundaries.
I think the reason Patterico picked ISIS for his example was to skip over all that, and to pick a target whom almost anyone would be unwilling to defend.
But the real world is more complicated, and always has been. As many folks have commented here before, there are many precedents, involving both Republican and Democratic presidential campaigns and going back many decades, having explicit contacts with foreign companies, organizations, intelligence services, and governments. Many of them are indeed eyebrow-raising and quite a few of them are troublesome.
But they’re not troublesome because there’s some kind of flat, outright, bright-line ban — in either law or politics — against those contacts.
Do I think that they’re a good idea? Hell, no. I think Donnie is a sucker, and this was an example of how much con men (in this case the Rooskies) especially love to con other con men.
But just how bad an idea was it? What bounds did it actually cross, as compared to the bounds that Trump-skeptics (me included!) sincerely worry might have been crossed?
It depends. Those who have a categorical, instant reaction like Goldberg’s, or Lowry’s, or Patterico’s, are skipping a lot of steps in the process of explaining why this specific instance is out of bounds, given the specific facts, circumstances, and results (or lack thereof). As best I can tell, not all of the potentially relevant facts are in yet, and I certainly agree with those who’ve pointed out — as I have myself — that Team Trump shoots off another of its own toes every time it gives another inconsistent story or excuse.
I think a Trump-skeptic who’s trying to be intellectually honest ought not skip these steps. I’m open to persuasion that there’s evidence I’m unaware of, or that there are arguments I haven’t considered. But this “Of course it’s outrageous!” stuff — I don’t find that persuasive. It instead seems to me to be sloppy, in circumstances when precision of thought and speech is especially essential (given everyone’s continuing difficulties in dealing with Team Trump’s semi-literacy and tendency to produce tossed-word salads).
Now I’m going to chase some kids off my lawn.
Beldar (fa637a) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:47 pmAlthough “suicide” may be appropriate. Israel is rumored to be a nuclear power, and under the NPT nuclear powers are lawful targets for preemptive nuclear strikes.
nk (dbc370) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:49 pmWhat is my reaction? Can you give me a quote?
Patterico (115b1f) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:56 pmDuring the campaign, candidate Trump famously railed against, met with, and feuded on Twitter with Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto about “the Wall” and who would pay for it. I thought it was all show-biz and rabble-rousing, but there’s no doubt that those conversations became part of the matrix of facts that shaped the discussion of the immigration/border security issues in the campaign, or that those are legitimate and sharply disputed political issues that voters are entitled to consider.
Was Trump flirting with treason somehow in those communications? If that razz-ma-tazz was corny but “within bounds,” why?
Beldar (fa637a) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:58 pmWhatever the bounds are, I’m pretty sure they’re different for Republicans and for Democrats.
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 5:59 pmI take this as reasonably implying a reaction, Patterico:
I didn’t take your questions entirely rhetorically, though, and answered them: Russia isn’t ISIS, to start with. And I don’t know if I’d be okay with it until I knew all the facts.
Moreover, I took this as a reaction:
Were you not expressing a reaction with that, specifically, agreement with almost every word from Goldberg that you then proceeded to quote?
I certainly don’t want to put words in your mouth, but these are your words. If I’ve misunderstood them, and if you were expressing no reaction, I’m confused.
Beldar (fa637a) — 7/11/2017 @ 6:01 pm98.So who’s gonna play Junior on SNL?
Stephen Baldwin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6F4GtyRfto
“Brylcreem! A little dab’ll do ya!” – Brylcreem TV commercial, 1950s
DCSCA (797bc0) — 7/11/2017 @ 6:09 pmThe problem for the owner is that for almost a year his POV has been decidedly and consistently one way on all things Trump. Fair enough, he’s far from alone.
But he has a separate, but equally hardened view on all things Putin. Again, fair enough, he’s far from alone.
So any equation that links the two of them is like mixing and acid and a base. The reaction is as predictable as the chemistry.
Putin Trump = ISIS US.
Its a false equivalency, but he’s married to it.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 7/11/2017 @ 6:21 pmBeldar,
You have accurately quoted me. So what is my reaction to Trump Jr.? You said I had an instant, categorical reaction that skips a lot of steps in explaining why the Trump Jr. (not a hypothetical) situation is out of bounds given the specific facts and circumstances of the situation, or lack thereof. That’s your assertion. So what is my reaction?
I thought I was saying wait until the facts come in but you obviously read something different. I want to know what it is and what I said to cause you to make that statement.
Patterico (9f866e) — 7/11/2017 @ 6:23 pmAlso, I’m not sure where the report first surfaced, so I don’t know if this is artifactual or factual, but before the actual emails were made public, there was a report that DTJr. was told that the general nature of the information was that Clinton and the DNC was receiving campaign funds from Russian sources, which would have been against campaign finance laws.
We’ve got a cottage industry formed around the “investigation” of whether the Trump campaign was benefiting from Russian involvement, but I’ve yet to see anyone explain why it would be “sinister” for the Trump campaign to be anxious to get its hands on information in June 2016 that supposedly showed the exact kind of “collusion” by its opposition that is the subject of so much handwringing now on the left and by the NeverTrumpers.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 7/11/2017 @ 6:30 pmI’ll address Beldar and Beldar only.
The point of my hypothetical is twofold: 1) to switch the parties to see if it makes a difference (it did for one commenter) and 2) to isolate one factor to see whether it affected people’s opinions. In other words: if we assume the information is being provided by an entity that literally nobody could disagree is an enemy, would people still hold the same position? If people did hold the same position, we would know that the status of the information provider as enemy is irrelevant to people’s position. If people change their position? We could discuss what makes Russia meaningfully different.
I see people have far less charitable views of what I was doing, but I don’t think my time is profitably spent engaging people who show me such a lack of charity. You, by contrast, are worth explaining myself to. It is never a waste of my time to converse with you.
Patterico (9f866e) — 7/11/2017 @ 6:30 pm128. shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 7/11/2017 @ 6:30 pm
It’s in the actual emails. And I think the idea was this was from independent oligarchs in Russia. Whom the Prosecutor General of Russia (a supposedly independent person) was investigating. How you could get that to make sense, I’m not sure. Are these oligarchs anti-Putin? (like there were any left) And if so, wouldn’t you be helping Putin consolidate control?
The story was probably designed to work with a somewhat more informed person than Donald Trump Jr, but they probably wanted the Trump campaign not to disclose it, because it was all false, and Donald Trump Jr bringing other people spoiled that strategy.
Sammy Finkelman (54fb9c) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:15 pmRe this:
I didn’t interpret what you wrote as being, in essence, “wait until the facts come in.”
I do freely concede, though, that what you did write is not directly inconsistent with an argument that we should wait until the facts come in. Likewise, Jonah Goldberg, in the language of his that you quoted, only professes himself to find “the whole feeding frenzy unappealing,” which I suppose could likewise be consistent with an argument that we should wait until the facts come in.
And in your subsequent post, you are very specific in saying: “This does not show collusion, of course. It appears to remain true that the meeting did not immediately result in usable information.” That’s likewise consistent with waiting until the facts come in.
Although I didn’t misattribute his words to you, I did, however, interpret your “look me in the eye with a straight face while you argue this” to put you in Rich Lowry’s camp — that is, in general agreement with him that this is “wildly out of bounds” as a self-evident proposition. But those were Lowry’s words, not yours, and not in the language from his NR colleague Goldberg that you endorsed and generally adopted.
So if you’re telling me that I can look you in the eye, even after you tilt your head, and I can say I really might be okay with something like the scenario in your Bill Clinton/ISIS hypothetical, if instead it involved Donnie Trump and the Russians, but for sure I think we ought to wait until then facts come in — and you won’t then actually stalk away in disgust — then I’ve done you a disservice in my over-inference.
You and I agree on a bunch of principles so fundamental that they’re often omitted from our everyday discussion. Every person accused of a crime has a constitutional presumption of innocence, for example, and I know that even though that makes your day-job harder, you and I and others who understand the system actually believe that stuff, implicitly and fiercely, not just as lip service. If you likewise have been extending that presumption to Donnie Trump’s foolish emails, without bothering to mention it in so many words, then I’m not surprised or disappointed a bit, and accept that without quibble or reservation.
Beldar (fa637a) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:18 pmI can see one benefit to Russia from peddling this story:
It gives or reinforces the idea in Donald J. Trump’s Jr.’s mind, and hopefully his father, the real ultimate target, that there is significant serious opposition to Putin within Russia so he’s not a de facto dictator and is limited in his plotting capability and not such a bad guy etc.
But they abandoned this whole operation in midstream.
Sammy Finkelman (54fb9c) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:25 pmcause his filthy nevertrump ass sure joins the frenzy readily enough huh
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:31 pm79. Rick Ballard (264a24) — 7/11/2017 @ 3:14 pm
But Fredo (Donald J. Trump Jr.) was the original target. It can’t be they decided he was too dumb. The new factor was something else.
Probably that it would have been shared too widely in the campaign, and the Trump making the allegation public was NOT what they wanted the Trump campaign to do with this disinformation. That was for Trump to believe, but not disseminate.
Sammy Finkelman (54fb9c) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:31 pmSure I am. But I would be interested to discuss your reaction to my hypothetical, and what the differences are — and what the reasons for the differences are between my hypo and what we would have here if everything were proved. It is difficult for me at present to scroll up and see if you answered it in the spirit in which it was offered, as opposed to simply criticizing it as non-equivalent. But I want to know what underlies people’s opinions. Trump vs. Hillary? Russia not as big an enemy as ISIS? Lack of an offer to do anything by the Trump campaign? Etc.
I haven’t even been discussing criminal law, and these principles do not apply in the court of public opinion — at least not in the same way.
Patterico (0e0c78) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:38 pmIn the unlikely event that anyone were actually prosecuted for this stuff, those principles would absolutely apply. For sure.
Patterico (0e0c78) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:40 pmBeldar,
I think Patterico wants to wait and see, but he also is interested in how far Trump supporters will go to defend or excuse Donald Trump from criticism:
That’s why much of what he has written recently is hypotheticals.
DRJ (15874d) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:41 pmBingo.
Patterico (0e0c78) — 7/11/2017 @ 7:51 pm@137- DRJ, there will always be a base of support of some sort. Trump’s appears to hover up and down around the mid 30s. Nixon still had an approval rating by the time he resigned at 24%.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 7/11/2017 @ 8:16 pm