Patterico's Pontifications

3/22/2017

Wall Street Journal: Trump’s Lack of Credibility Is a Real Problem

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:30 am



Yesterday Jay Caruso said conservatives have to stop defending the indefensible when it comes to Trump and his often incredible statements. Today the Wall Street Journal echoes that sentiment with an editorial titled A President’s Credibility bearing the deck headline: “Trump’s falsehoods are eroding public trust, at home and abroad.” Here’s how it begins:

If President Trump announces that North Korea launched a missile that landed within 100 miles of Hawaii, would most Americans believe him? Would the rest of the world? We’re not sure, which speaks to the damage that Mr. Trump is doing to his Presidency with his seemingly endless stream of exaggerations, evidence-free accusations, implausible denials and other falsehoods.

The latest example is Mr. Trump’s refusal to back off his Saturday morning tweet of three weeks ago that he had “found out that [Barack] Obama had my ‘wires tapped’ in Trump Tower just before the victory” on Election Day. He has offered no evidence for his claim, and a parade of intelligence officials, senior Republicans and Democrats have since said they have seen no such evidence.

Yet the President clings to his assertion like a drunk to an empty gin bottle, rolling out his press spokesman to make more dubious claims. Sean Spicer—who doesn’t deserve this treatment—was dispatched last week to repeat an assertion by a Fox News commentator that perhaps the Obama Administration had subcontracted the wiretap to British intelligence.

That bungle led to a public denial from the British Government Communications Headquarters, and British news reports said the U.S. apologized. But then the White House claimed there was no apology. For the sake of grasping for any evidence to back up his original tweet, and the sin of pride in not admitting error, Mr. Trump had his spokesman repeat an unchecked TV claim that insulted an ally.

It’s all on target, except maybe for the part that Sean Spicer “doesn’t deserve this treatment.” Spicer looks for all the world like someone who has fully thrown himself into the task of shoveling B.S. for his boss.

When it comes to the credibility of Trump and his spokesholes, to borrow a memorable phrase used by John McCain in a different context: “there’s a lot more shoes to drop from this centipede.” Here’s some more shoes that have dropped recently. Remember this?

As I said at the time:

If Donald Trump denied it happened, you can take that to the bank.

Of course, if the bank is familiar with Trump’s reputation for veracity, they probably won’t accept it.

And of course now we know that Ivanka has gotten a security clearance. Well, I’m sure Trump was telling the truth at the time, right?

Then there’s Sean Spicer on March 13 telling us that all appointees are required to sign Trump’s ethics pledge:

Q Thanks a lot, Sean. I wanted to follow up with you on questions regarding Michael Flynn, who’s no longer in the administration. There’s a five-year lobbying ban that’s been imposed upon all Trump administration employees. Does that also apply to Michael Flynn? Would he not be permitted to lobby now for five years because of the agreement that he signed when he became the national security advisor?

MR. SPICER: That would be correct. I’d have to check and actually figure out when he signed or if he signed the form. But yes, all administration officials who come in are required to sign that ethics pledge banning them from lobbying for five years and then a lifetime ban on lobbying on behalf of any foreign government.

“All” apparently doesn’t include Flynn after all. Today we learn from Lachlan Markay:

The White House’s former top national security official did not sign an ethics pledge ostensibly required of all Trump administration appointees barring them from ethically questionable lobbying activities, The Daily Beast has learned.

Then we have Kellyanne Conway saying President Trump doesn’t know Carter Page:

Huh. Odd, given that Trump named him as someone on his team advising him on foreign policy, when speaking to the Washington Post editorial board:

RYAN: Thank you… We’ve heard you’re going to be announcing your foreign policy team shortly… Any you can share with us?

TRUMP: Well, I hadn’t thought of doing it, but if you want I can give you some of the names… Walid Phares, who you probably know, PhD, adviser to the House of Representatives caucus, and counter-terrorism expert; Carter Page, PhD; George Papadopoulos, he’s an energy and oil consultant, excellent guy; the Honorable Joe Schmitz, [former] inspector general at the Department of Defense; [retired] Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg; and I have quite a few more.

And, of course, Trump promised on the campaign trail to repeal ObamaCare, but yesterday was on Capitol Hill threatening Republican lawmakers’ jobs (as usual, Democrats are let off the hook) if they don’t pass a bill that does not repeal ObamaCare:

I’m asking for your vote on Thursday. I honestly think many of you will lose your seats in 2018 if you don’t get this done.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

I guess someone could always argue that lying from the Oval Office or White House Press Room is hardly unprecedented, and that’s true. But we criticized Obama when he lied — and if we are to maintain our own credibility, we have to hold Trump and his spokespeople accountable for their countless falsehoods as well. The editorial today concludes:

All of this continues the pattern from the campaign that Mr. Trump is his own worst political enemy. He survived his many false claims as a candidate because his core supporters treated it as mere hyperbole and his opponent was untrustworthy Hillary Clinton. But now he’s President, and he needs support beyond the Breitbart cheering section that will excuse anything. As he is learning with the health-care bill, Mr. Trump needs partners in his own party to pass his agenda. He also needs friends abroad who are willing to trust him when he asks for support, not least in a crisis.

This week should be dominated by the smooth political sailing for Mr. Trump’s Supreme Court nominee and the progress of health-care reform on Capitol Hill. These are historic events, and success will show he can deliver on his promises. But instead the week has been dominated by the news that he was repudiated by his own FBI director.

Two months into his Presidency, Gallup has Mr. Trump’s approval rating at 39%. No doubt Mr. Trump considers that fake news, but if he doesn’t show more respect for the truth most Americans may conclude he’s a fake President.

Tough but fair.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

112 Responses to “Wall Street Journal: Trump’s Lack of Credibility Is a Real Problem”

  1. if Mr. Trump’s credibility were a problem I’m pretty sure I’d know and honestly this “credibility issue” isn’t even on my radar so my feeling is that this is the wall street journal doing an “ass pull” and they should just keep this contrived twaddle to themselves

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  2. Day late and dollar short stuff. Damage done.

    Still, this ‘editorial’ should have been quilled weeks ago. Not that he’ pay attention to it. But better late than never.

    Picture it being October, 1962 and a ‘President Trump’ delivering [in his own special style] JFK’s televised address to the nation about ‘unmistakable evidence’ of offensive missiles in Cuba. Even Kennedy’s credibility eventually needed elements of that evidence revealed [at the U.N.] to ‘close the deal’ and win world opinion. Today, it could easily be knocked down as ‘fake news’ given the track record of the current CIC.

    It’s been an entertaining ride for 60-plus days but habitually playing fast and loose w/t truth is adolescent at best– and more disturbing- a symptom of a more serious illness at worst. Moving Ivanka into an office by Daddy may actually be a medicinal move, so don’t be surprised if her Secret Service code name turns out to be ‘Prozac.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  3. To your point, DCSCA, his delivery at a Kentucky speech on Monday night did sound slurred and exhausted.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  4. i pooh-pooh this putative problem

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  5. Right and the reason the u 2 photos hit him upside the head, was because after the bay of pigs that my distant cousin participated in, he had refused exile reports of r 7 sightings.

    narciso (d1f714)

  6. Fwiw

    http://Www.politico.com/story/2017/03/devin-nunes-donald-trump-surveillance-obama-236366

    Now this stems from the dodgy dossier and the crowdstrike repoet

    narciso (d1f714)

  7. “WIRETAPPED: Trump team communications captured by intelligence community surveillance, Nunes says. “Members of the intelligence community collected ‘incidental’ communications of the Trump transition team during legal surveillance operations, producing ‘dozens’ of reports which eventually unmasked several individuals’ identities and which were ‘widely disseminated,’ a top lawmaker said Wednesday afternoon.”

    It’s the “widely disseminated” part that may be felonious.”

    https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/260537/

    Colonel Haiku (166a1b)

  8. This us all smoke to hide nevertrumpers own credibility problems.

    http://ace.mu.nu/archives/YH.jpg

    Leon (168f33)

  9. Apparently carter page was brought in by Sam clevis, a figure of little note compared to say John podesta of the sberbank

    narciso (d1f714)

  10. Clevis was initially working fir walker, and had an opinion of trump, not unlike Dr. Evil.

    narciso (d1f714)

  11. Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others. ~ Groucho

    Tillman (a95660)

  12. Forgive them Father, they know not what they do.
    -Luke 23:34

    Trump is not the problem, Trump is the light exposing the rot and corruption.

    In all the political drama taking place in the USA as a result of the attempted color revolution against Trump, the bigger picture sometimes gets forgotten. And yet, this bigger picture is quite amazing, because if we look at it we will see irrefutable signs that the Empire in engaged in some bizarre slow motion of seppuku and the only mystery left is who, or what, will serve as the Empire’s kaishakunin (assuming there will be one). […]

    the Neocons’ refusal to accept the election of Donald Trump has resulted in a massive campaign to de-legitimize him. What the Neocons clearly fail to see, or don’t care about, is that by de-legitimizing Trump they are also de-legitimizing the entire political process which brought Trump to power and upon which the United States are built as a society. As a direct result from this campaign, not only are millions of Americans becoming disgusted with the political system they were indoctrinated to believe in, but internationally the notion of “American democracy” is becoming a sad joke.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-12/empire-should-be-placed-suicide-watch

    Leon (168f33)

  13. And of course now we know that Ivanka has gotten a security clearance. Well, I’m sure Trump was telling the truth at the time, right?

    if all the corrupt and unethical fbi agent bimbos (thousands and thousands) involved in comey’s corrupt incompetent fbi clown show can have security clearances what difference is one more bimbo gonna make really

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  14. Two months into his Presidency, Gallup has Mr. Trump’s approval rating at 39%. No doubt Mr. Trump considers that fake news, but if he doesn’t show more respect for the truth most Americans may conclude he’s a fake President.

    Too late, Americans have already concluded the MSM don’t respect the truth and their polls are fake. Drudge reports 50% favorability, and I trust him way more than the fish wrap cited here.

    Keep calling the pot black Mr. kettle, it’s doing wonders for your lost credibility.

    Not.

    Leon (168f33)

  15. Trumps approval rating is 39%? The constant bellowing and bashing since November 8 by the MSM, celebrities, news, TV shows, comedians, late night, retail businesses, schools, colleges, the Deep State, the FBI, Secret Service agents, #NeverTrumpers and any A-hole who can get on Youtube would has me amazed his rating is north of -10%. Obviously 49% are not propagandized into total stupidity yet.

    Even the “non partial” CBO and the “non partial” Federal Reserve are doing their best to undermine the Trump Presidency. The fed chimed in two days ago thereby chopping off the great run since the election. That was only a matter of time since the idiot running the fed is a Keynes/Krugman automaton incapable of market based thought or independent though.

    So 39%? I’d say he’s hanging in there. There is a coup going on but nobody on our team seems to see it.

    Rev. Hoagie® (785e38)

  16. The Washington Post’s conclusion is perhaps self serving.

    They are the original source of illegal leaks of classified material and a rumor mill that is trying the duly elected President in the Court of Public Opinion in order to deligitimize him via unnamed accusers hiding behind the very same Washington Post.

    They could be projecting about themselves when they decry “fake news”. A well known Liberal commentator at Bloggingheads has bemoaned the “blogger style” descend of the WaPo with “gotcha headlines” that are not supported by the body of the article.

    A duly elected President –is not a “fake President”–and that reveals a tremendous amount of disrespect for the electorate and the legitimate Constitutional process of the government of The United States.

    It is quite possible now that The Washington Post’s ratings have sunk so low that they are so desparate to be relevant again the only thing that will save them is a return to their glory days–The Impeachment of a Republican President.

    The Washington Post doesn’t have much to lose here, and it is all upside for them even if the turmoil leads to a security crisis.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  17. So 39%? I’d say he’s hanging in there. There is a coup going on but nobody on our team seems to see it.

    *******

    The media idiots returning to the Science!/ s of polling!

    Nate Silver who claimed that Hillary only had something like a 85% chance of winning was berated via Twitter, reddit and other media for not going along with the guy from Princeton who said she had a 99% chance of winning. Nevermind that the MOE for most polling is almost impossible to get below 3%.

    Add to all of that –our for of government does the election for President on a state by state basis and therefore these national opinion polls are even more useless except to those who wish to disrespect the process and the electorate that knew much about Trump’s style and fully considered that when they elected him.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  18. Ugh run ons from hell and other errors–my IPhone betrays me.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  19. Nunes does a very good Ron Ziegler. But gee, what’s that brown stuff on his nose?

    “Do your associates in the FBI and Justice Department know about this?” – Bob Woodward [Robert Redford] ‘All The President’s Men’ 1976

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  20. A duly elected President –is not a “fake President”–and that reveals a tremendous amount of disrespect for the electorate and the legitimate Constitutional process of the government of The United States.

    this is 8 years of birtherism chickens coming home to roost

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  21. .The fed chimed in two days ago thereby chopping off the great run since the election.
    The DJIA unlinked from the actual American economy twenty or do years ago. Computerized trading and day trading made the stock market into a casino in which investors try to game each other out, and stock prices may have little relationship to the assets and future outlook of the underlying company. So any bull or bear market means next to nothing about the country’s economic health.

    kishnevi (a1a81b)

  22. Patterico:
    You eagle eyes must have been tired, because you should have noticed that Spicer said he didn’t know if Flynn actually signed the ethics pledge.

    I’d have to check and actually figure out when he signed or if he signed the form

    Spicer only affirmed that Flynn should have signed the pledge, not that he had signed it.

    kishnevi (a1a81b)

  23. The participation rate is back to 2008 levels, fwiw.

    narciso (d1f714)

  24. It’s just so amazing to me how partisanship has apparently been the driving force behind so many of Obama’s critics. Makes me feel naive and rather unusual in simply using a rational mind and a moral compass instead of caring about the (D) or the (R). And to the partisan right, this is “virtue signaling” because virtue is a bad thing to them.

    The relief is that I no longer have to care about the fate of a political movement. The good guys are terribly isolated anyway. Might as well just enjoy America for her great natural beauty, enjoy the good things in my own life, and just view the political disaster as basically the human element of weather. There’s really nothing the good guys can do about it.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  25. Still think you need to rename your blog to “I Hate Trump!”. You could parse things said by other presidents, senators, etc. and come up with the same twaddle. If you took the time. And the WSJ? they would be happy with Hillary in office.

    Scott (98cb1c)

  26. The participation rate is back to 2008 levels, fwiw.

    narciso (d1f714) — 3/22/2017 @ 1:04 pm

    lol no

    https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  27. Only to chump suckers who buy the democrats talking points without question.

    Might as well don your pussyhat, claim Comey’s serial no comments are due to principle, and move to New York City so you cqn vote for Hillary again in the next Mayor election.

    Chump sucker. Watch out for those Russians rigging the election against your favorite commie.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  28. ANd be sure and fight against speech codes and political correctness by first paying reverential deference to every one of their strictures.
    When you get pepper sprayed in the face by a ninja costumed Nazi screaming obscenities, bow and or curtsy, but foremost be polite.

    What ever you do – don’t rock the boat – unless it’s your President standing on the spit.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  29. A duly elected President –is not a “fake President”–and that reveals a tremendous amount of disrespect for the electorate and the legitimate Constitutional process of the government of The United States.
    this is 8 years of birtherism chickens coming home to roost
    Davethulhu (fab944) — 3/22/2017 @ 12:52 pm

    ******************

    It’s not equivalent. The birtherism issue was not validated by most of America’s media in a covert fashion.

    IOW–it was not near the national security challenge or the attempt at a Constitutional crisis–that the current effort want s to be.

    The attempts to render Trump as a “Fake President” without REAL evidence–evidence that can be tested should be an affront to anyone that has been sworn to protect the Constitution.

    Rendering Trump a “Fake President” via the “fair” media might just unravel something that you hold near and dear.

    Want the country protected? Want Gorsuch appointed? Want Ruth Bader Ginsburg–when she goes to be replaced by a federalist approved nominee? How about all the other judges on the appellate Court?

    You want the unelected media to render that kind of power via rumor mongering?

    I didn’t even vote for Trump–but I find this badly sourced challenge to the Electorate and the idea of a government for and by the people–to hysteria run amok.

    Someone should realize that the resulting chaos is bad for the State as a whole.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  30. to *be* hysteria run amok.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  31. This is interesting.

    https://patterico.com/2017/03/20/comey-confirms-investigation-of-trump-russia-ties/

    Strangely devoid of content though. As if it didn’t conform with someone’s head stuck firmly up their rear bias. Just a vague “I have no time for this (bit of truth than renders my next 20 posts mute)”.

    Reminds me of Robert E. Lee sucking up his courage to attack Gettysberg.
    Don’t kid yourself, Pal. That’s not George McClellan up on the ridge this time.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  32. It’s just so amazing to me how partisanship has apparently been the driving force behind so many of Obama’s critics.

    *************

    Do you have specific examples? Then–given the mainstream media’s liberal bend–how much traction did these attacks–that were only motivated by partisanship– get?

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  33. It’s not equivalent. The birtherism issue was not validated by most of America’s media in a covert fashion.

    It’s absolutely equivalent. Fox News, talk radio, “alternate” news (infowars, zerohedge, etc). made it their job to challenge Obama’s validity. And ultimately they were rewarded, the Republicans now control congress and the presidency. It’s clearly a winning strategy.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  34. So, if granting a less than top level security clearance is lying about not doing that, how is that less than nothing?

    If knowing names of people that one has never met means something, how is that less than nothing?

    You people do not understand propoganda and counterintelligence. Useful, but stale before the sell.

    neal (8712e0)

  35. Also–why are so many of you interested in not waiting for essentially the President’s right to due process?

    And–by extension the electorate’s right to have their President?

    Why are you so willing to acquiesce to the President being disarmed by a media without properly collected “evidence” provided by unnamed accusers?

    No one person could defend themselves in such conditions.

    Not only do some of you acquiesce to this attack on our system but you actually join in and flame the illogical hysteria.

    The rule of law and order is being upended by a questionably motivated media(a media that might just profit greatly from the ratings gained by an Impeachment) and you rush to judgement right along with them.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  36. It’s absolutely equivalent. Fox News, talk radio, “alternate” news (infowars, zerohedge, etc). made it their job to challenge Obama’s validity. And ultimately they were rewarded, the Republicans now control congress and the presidency. It’s clearly a winning strategy.

    ********************************

    This current attack on the current President has been validated and pursued by all duly elected Democrats and there is concerted and coordinated effort to attack the Trump presidency on every level via The Democrat party as a whole and their sympathizers in the bureaucracy and the media.

    It pales in comparison.

    Also Obamacare and Benghazi probably had more to do with Hillary losing than–“birtherism”. Add to all of that– Hillary’s basic lack of charisma was probably a bigger factor in the loss.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  37. I noticed a comparison between Bork and Thomas.

    When Bork was accused of authoring every sin the Democrats had imposed on the country over the last hundred and fifty years, he demurred and took the flogging like a proper gentleman.

    When Justice Thomas was accused of the same thing with a special “he’s a pervert too!” overlay, Thomas rose up on his hind legs and correctly labelled the proceedings a high tech lynching.

    The one’s name is synonymous with defeat by smear and treachery , while the other is a Supreme Court stalwart.

    Now these years later the correct label and honest unstinted push back against the Democrats is all that is remembered.

    There’s a lesson in that for those woke enough to smell the coffee.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  38. .The attempts to render Trump as a “Fake President” without REAL evidence–evidence that can be tested should be an affront to anyone that has been sworn to protect the Constitution.

    The real Left is doing that, but not the MSM or anyone else. Just like a considerable section of the Right spent years trying to prove Obama was not a legitimate president.

    Pointing out that Trump blusters, exaggerates, and otherwise plays fast and loose with the truth is not manufacturing a crisis. Nor is pointing out the ill effects of that behavior. Trump made it loud and clear he wanted a better relationship with the UK, and now his staff has annoyed/insulted the UK more openly than Obama ever did.

    The key point is that all this is selfinflicted. Had Trump not said/tweeted something on a matter he had no reason to speak about, no matter what the truth, the headlines woukd be focusing on Ryancare. And we would have space to talk about Tillerson’s apparent decision that he needs to talk to China much more than he needs to talk to our fellow members of NATO (btw, I think he’s probably correct in that.)

    kishnevi (a1a81b)

  39. The Saturday night massacre was enough to disqualify Bork from the Supreme court.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  40. WSJ:

    If President Trump announces that North Korea launched a missile that landed within 100 miles of Hawaii, would most Americans believe him?

    Well, yes, because there would military sources that backed him up, and the Secretary of Defense, who has credibility, would also back him up.

    They would believe him, but not for long if it wasn’t true. The initial judgemet would be it was probably true, because this is not as subject Trump has lied about in the past, and so it is not one of those subjects he likes to lie about.

    If Trump were successsful in stopping and preventing leaks, it would take longer for the media to decide whether it was true or not.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ea6b3)

  41. The Wall Street Journal is overstating the case.

    Saying that tha attack in Yemen was a success is anoer matter. You could see there that Trump was using anon sequitor – the loss of a life was somehow a reason not to question it. That didn’t make any sense. As Senator McCain pointed out, there was an atempt to rescue him and others while he was a prisoner in Vietnam. The people who did it jwere justifiably honored but that mmeake it a uccess.

    Also, the claim he needs his executive order on immigration to protexct the United states is anoter matter.

    And Susan Rice making her claims about Benghazi didn’t cause everything the Obama Administration said to be disregarded.

    And also, Trump cannot regain credibility. He can only avoid lying in areas that he hasn’t lied about yet, where people may draw a distinction between this subject and taht subject..

    If Trump wants to regain some credibility, it is not enough for him to stop repeating or trying to prove the spying 0n Trump Tower story, as some people in the media may be implying – he has to, first of all, explain what actually prompted that Saturday morning tweet.

    He’s never offered any explanation of that.

    Logically, it is probably traceable to what Mark Levin said on the radio the previous Thursday night -(except that Mark Levin hardly claimed he was 100% certain) and the subsequent Breitbart article, but who or what called his attention to that? A person, a tweet, something on television?

    And the truth is also, Trump knew this was far from 100% proof. He couldn’t have gotten elected president if he believed things so easily.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ea6b3)

  42. Just like a considerable section of the Right spent years trying to prove Obama was not a legitimate president.

    *******************

    Really? Who were the official–and elected Republicans– that were participating in the “birtherism” cited above by Davethulhu?

    ****************

    but not the MSM

    This “Fake President” phrase is quoted from the editorial board at The Washington Post–the very same post that started the smoke of–Trump is a Russian agent hyperbole.

    The key point is that all this is selfinflicted.

    Well Trump was trying to defend himself against the full flurry of unnamed sources leaking all kinds of accusations via The New York Times, and The Washington Post. Now we have what Nunes has revealed today which doesn’t fall under the arcane definition of “wiretapping” as non-experts would understand it but does reveal that the Trump transition team and Trump were having their communications dispersed incidentally and their names “unmasked” in reports being dispersed amongst elements of the Obama Administration.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  43. So any bull or bear market means next to nothing about the country’s economic health.
    kishnevi (a1a81b) — 3/22/2017 @ 12:57 pm

    That’s correct kishnevi, but it does mean something about the country’s perceived stability. I am also a member of a private trading club. We call it The 800 Club since we require a FICO of 800+ to join and a 1mm cash trading account. Since November I’ve exceeded 200k in profit. We close every day in a cash position. And we can make money in a Bear market just as well as a Bull.

    Rev. Hoagie® (785e38)

  44. Virtue signaling is a sight to behold.

    Colonel Haiku (166a1b)

  45. Fun fact. Hillary Clinton was the originator of the birtherism movement, and there was a college document (later claimed to be a mistake) of Obama himself claiming to be born in Kenya.

    Of course now that is all moot, as Cruz has convinced conservatives it doesn’t matter anyway, even if he WAS born in Kenya, his mother was a citizen which makes him a natural born citizen.

    Leon (168f33)

  46. Re: Carter Page:

    Where’s the contradiction??

    Donald Trump told the Washington Post during the presidential campaign a year ago (published March 21, 2016 – that Carter Page was on his foreign policy team.

    And Carter Page was indeed on his team – he was instrumental in getting the Russian Ambassador to a meeting with Jeff Sessions during the Republicam (Kislyak and around 50 other Ambassadors, some of whom went on to speak privately (?)with Jeff Sessions.

    Donald Trump never claimed to have met him or spoken to Carter Page to him in person. Just that he was on his team. At most, like with Vladimir Putin, he spoke to him once or twice on the telephone (in Putins’s case it would have bene through an interpreter)

    “he doesn’t know these gentlemen, he didn’t work with them” was what KellyAnne Conway said to Will Rabbe, who tweeted it, ONE YEAR LATER

    And indeed Carter Page never got a position in the Administration.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ea6b3)

  47. Leon (168f33) — 3/22/2017 @ 3:15 pm

    Hillary Clinton was the originator of the birtherism movement,

    You have that a little bit wrong. The New York Times claims that’s a lie but it isn’t all so clear. She, or her campaign advisers, could have been secretly behind it, but we don’t know that.

    Sidney Blumenthal did maybe get the ball rolling in 2007. And it was some fringe Democrats who pursued this after Obama won the nomination.

    Saying Hillary stated it is usual Donald Trump leaning on what maybe somebody else claimed

    and there was a college document (later claimed to be a mistake) of Obama himself claiming to be born in Kenya.

    Not a college document. There’s aclaim outstanding (because his documents have not bene made public) that maybe at one time, in applying to Harvard, or trying to get some benefit from Harvard, Obama claimed to have been born in Kenya. The actual place that was said was on the web page of his literary agent, who at that time had a kinor position but she did write it, and now heads that literary agency, and she says she was just guessing – well she doesn’t put it hat way, she says hshe made a mistake. That never got corrected until 2007.

    There is another interestng fact: Barack Obama had two half brothers (one died in an accident, gthe other one now lives in China) who were born in Kenya to a white american woman whom Barack Obama Sr. bigamously married and took back to Kenya with him. And there may be some interview in which his step grandmother was misquoted or confused. They were born a few years after him.

    as Cruz has convinced conservatives it doesn’t matter anyway, even if he WAS born in Kenya, his mother was a citizen which makes him a natural born citizen.

    That always was true. We didn’t need the Cruz case to know that.

    John McCain wasn’t born in the United States though. He was born in the Panama Canal Zone while his father was there on military duty.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ea6b3)

  48. “That always was true. We didn’t need the Cruz case to know that.”

    No Sammy, it’s still not true. A natural born citizen is one born of American citizen parents on property controlled under American authority, including military bases, embassies, and sea vessels registered to and flying the American flag.

    Claiming someone that had dual citizenship until months before announcing this presidential bid is a natural born citizen is such a dishonest stretch one must be a mental yoga master to pull it off. That is NOT what the founders had in mind when outlining the qualifications for CIC of our nation.

    Between that truth, and the Obama flap, there is no way Cruz would have survived the legitimacy attack by the democrats and the media (BIRM) in the general election, sorry.

    Leon (168f33)

  49. Leon, you were wrong then, as now, regarding whether Cruz is a natural born citizen as required by the Constitution. And it has nothing to do with me being a Cruz supporter – I said the same about Obama – who whether or not he was born in Hawaii – his mom was a US citizen at Obama’s birth, he is a US citizen, natural born.

    Steven Malynn (d29fc3)

  50. Yes, and the fact that McCain was not born on American soil *was* brought up as an issue. Where Obama was born has little to do with the topic at hand: to say that 8 years of birtherism has brought the events we are now witnessing is pure tripe. What is clear is that we now have a blood feud between two warring factions. Cooler heads will not prevail. I’ll give you Trump’s apparent lack of decorum and veracity whenever he’s allowed to login to his Twitter account, if you’ll give me the fact that conservative groups were targeted by the IRS. And not by a few rogue agents. I’ll give you that an investigation of Trump’s associates’ ties to Russia may be warranted if you will acknowledge that the stonewalling of Congress by Eric Holder on, say, Fast & Furious was shameful.

    But, Obama partisans won’t go for that, nor will Trump Partisans: it’s all or nothing time, the health of the Republic be damned. Well, I’m sick of the zealots on both sides; you do the country you profess to love no favors. The truth is the truth – give me a damned umpire who calls strikes and balls fairly, in the press, in the government and in the body politic. But maybe we are past that point. If so, there is no return. Reason before passion, Country before party. The lack of adherence to this very basic concept is leading us down a very dark road indeed. It’s sickening to watch.

    Estarcarus (cd97e1)

  51. I love almost everything this administration is doing, other than letting Trump act out. If this crap continues, there is going to be the very real possibility of an Amendment 25 resolution, regarding mental fitness.

    I have tried VERY hard to get my mind around President Trump, but it gets harder every time he pops off with some fantasy tweet. The best I could imagine is that this was red meat for his hard-core supporters, and trolling his opponents to consume their energy. But it’s consuming my energy, too.

    Sad. Very sad. But there is the very real possibility that the President is nuts.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  52. A natural born citizen is one born of American citizen parents on property controlled under American authority, including military bases, embassies, and sea vessels registered to and flying the American flag.

    LOL Trump really brainwashed his guys quite well. I think some of them believe this stuff. This plus the nasty stuff directed at Cruz’s family, such as the racist stuff regarding the JFK assassination, has educated me about what the Republican party stands for. Even worse is when someone pretends to be a Cruz supporter just to continue throwing these lies out there.

    There’s a reason Trump lies, will full awareness everyone knows he’s lying. His supporters think this forceful BSing is leadership. They think lying makes America great.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  53. I don’t follow, holder armed the zetas (re that ambush of ice operations yes in 20q1)

    narciso (d1f714)

  54. There are lots of things that Trump tweets that a re maybe kinda sorta true. And it might be that a president capable of a coherent argument could get hold of the narrative. Clinton sure did, in a worse situation.

    But this president cannot. He is far more likely to make things worse the longer he talks. Nor does he have surrogates who dare to speak for him, as he thinks nothing of contradicting their best efforts with a new, clumsy, lie.

    This was apparent during the campaign — there were times when he was shown saying a simple thing and then was asked about it and he denied saying what was just played. But the people who voted for him didn’t pay attention to any of this. Those of us who did (and were subsequently surprised by the narrow victory) hoped that this was just a campaign style that would not continue into the WH.

    But it does. And we are forced to come back to our original belief — we have a spoiled brat as president who is upset he can’t fire everyone who says “no” and is acting out as a result.

    It’s really not acceptable. I will continue to try to separate his administration’s good works from Trump himself, but the public is going to be less forgiving, and the mood is going to change very quickly now.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  55. the nasty stuff directed at Cruz’s family

    the only nasty stuff was directed specifically at Cruz’s harvardtrash sacky wife and his creepy religious freak father

    it wasn’t like it was gratuitous or anything

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  56. A natural born citizen is one born of American citizen parents on property controlled under American authority, including military bases, embassies, and sea vessels registered to and flying the American flag.

    Jesus wept.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  57. The day that Mattis and Tillerson wake up thinking “this sh1t has got to end” is the last day for President Trump.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  58. By the way, I do not think that Trump is lying. I think his worldview may be so disjoint that he thinks that whatever he says is the truth and that anyone who doesn’t believe it is a bad person.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  59. Bee’s a blunt instrument, the fact that the stay behinds like price Ahmed and Co. Have been through active and passive measures sabotaging him, notithstanfing.

    narciso (d1f714)

  60. Mattis is weird

    people go into the military normal and if they stay too long they come out weird and ill-suited for governance

    and this is probably for the best

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  61. Jesus wept.

    no kidding.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  62. Well, you guys have made the allowance I guess, for myself, I’ve researched it, and the most common explanation for the term I came up with is what I have stated. The simplest form I’ve seen of it is here:

    http://www.mikechurch.com/liberty-institute/the-constitution/how-the-founding-fathers-defined-natural-born-citizen/

    The founders used that term for a condition of becoming CIC for a reason, I really believe your definition could put the country in great peril. Remember that when Obama’s nuke deal with Iran bears fruit.

    Leon (168f33)

  63. Also, his book wasn’t “Dreams of My Mother”.

    Leon (168f33)

  64. And round and round we go. I simply have to stop reading the comments. Hell, I need to stop writing them, starting right now. I’m mostly full of it myself. One love, peeps. But remember as we throw our feces at each other, the world is burning. Probably a bunch of heated, hell I can’t even call it rhetoric…dogma, doesn’t help us, as one big family in the same boat, navigate these rocky shoals.

    Estarcarus (cd97e1)

  65. I love almost everything this administration is doing, other than letting Trump act out. If this crap continues, there is going to be the very real possibility of an Amendment 25 resolution, regarding mental fitness.
    I have tried VERY hard to get my mind around President Trump, but it gets harder every time he pops off with some fantasy tweet. The best I could imagine is that this was red meat for his hard-core supporters, and trolling his opponents to consume their energy. But it’s consuming my energy, too.
    Sad. Very sad. But there is the very real possibility that the President is nuts.
    Kevin M (25bbee) — 3/22/2017 @ 4:42 pm

    **************

    I find Randy Barnett to be a very reasonable man and he didn’t seem to think Trump’s tweet about “wiretapping” to be the end all everyone else seems to want it to be. Of course I cannot get to that tweet from Randy Barnett right now.

    But–there are a few others:

     @RandyEBarnett Mar 20

    Those Democrats who are deliberately undermining our constitutional order, and its peaceful TRANSFER of power, are very very dangerous.

    And another:

     @RandyEBarnett Mar 20

    By repeatedly questioning the “legitimacy” of the duly-elected president, Democrats are attempting to create a “constitutional crisis.”

    Then this:

     @RandyEBarnett Mar 21

    Refusing to acquiesce to peaceful TRANSFER of power is FAR more dangerous, and threatens civil war.

    The greater danger, insanity and hysteria is coming from The Left. If the Russian “objective” was chaos and a lack of trust in our system–The Left has most assuredly handed that to the Russians on a silver platter,

    See all of Randy Barnett above–and weigh that against Trump using an arcane term–“wiretapping” and then expressing criticism of a President–no longer in power.

    It is not on the same level playing field at all–unless you allow the Liberal media to direct your compass and America’s.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  66. There are two ways to obtain citizenship: being born a citizen, aka “natural born” or becoming a citizen through a legal process, aka “naturalized”. That’s it. Obama, McCain, and Cruz were all born citizens, therefore they are natural born. Birthers want to create a new category where someone is born a citizen but isn’t natural born. No such category exists.

    Davethulhu (7d4953)

  67. Or you can sneak into the country, pretend you’re a citizen and who’s gonna stop you.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  68. And by the way, Vattel was not one of the Founding Fathers.

    gwjd (b75ce2)

  69. Ironically, there’s a quote from Vattel that Trump should learn, the “Golden Rule of Sovereigns”:

    “One cannot complain when he is treated as he treats others.”

    Davethulhu (7d4953)

  70. By the way, I do not think that Trump is lying. I think his worldview may be so disjoint that he thinks that whatever he says is the truth and that anyone who doesn’t believe it is a bad person.

    Flashback!

    “This man is a pathological liar, he doesn’t know the difference between truth and lies … Whatever lie he’s telling, at that minute he believes it … the man is utterly amoral,” Cruz told reporters.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  71. This was apparent during the campaign — there were times when he was shown saying a simple thing and then was asked about it and he denied saying what was just played. But the people who voted for him didn’t pay attention to any of this. Those of us who did (and were subsequently surprised by the narrow victory) hoped that this was just a campaign style that would not continue into the WH.

    This is not entirely accurate. I’m one of the people who paid attention, and I don’t think you could say I “hoped” this would not continue in the White House. Because I knew it would. “Wished without any real hope”? Maybe. “Hoped”? Nah.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  72. Virtue signaling is a sight to behold.

    Yup. So is utter partisan bullshit.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  73. Death to Democrat obfuscators and their running dogsh*t, leprous co-conspirators…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  74. You line up with the Schiffs, Schumers, Durbins, Pelosis you are not the solution, you are the problem.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  75. I’d like to see the evidence, don’t tell they are bound by classified info, that was three statutes ago.

    narciso (6ff44f)

  76. “There are two ways to obtain citizenship: being born a citizen, aka “natural born” or becoming a citizen through a legal process, aka “naturalized”. That’s it. ”

    And Cruz, being born in Canada, became a citizen by his mother turning in the naturalization paperwork. Which Teddy boy sealed.

    Sorry, a guy that held dual citizenship with another country for forty plus years can’t be considered a natural born citizen eligible for the presidency. Unless you’re a partisan who is willing to interpret the constitution as you want it to be. In that case, go for it. It’s all the rage these days.

    Leon (168f33)

  77. You guys are funny. You don’t like Trump and you project that dislike.

    “52. I love almost everything this administration is doing, other than letting Trump act out.”
    Newsflash: The Presidnet *is* the admistration.

    And no matter if you think Cruz or Kasich or McMuffin would have been a better President … it doesn’t matter what you think. None of them got the nomination. And none of them got elected.

    I sometimes wonder if some of you people have been asleep for the last few decades, and somehow didn’t see what the Democrats do to EVERY Republican or non-liberal. Remember Bork? Remember how Dubya was nice and polite and didn’t fight back when thet called him names and blamed him for Katrina and all? And they beat him with every stick they could get their hands on.

    They would have hung Cruz’s birthplace around his neck. Yeah, he would have pulled out ten dozen authoritative legal opinions that he was a native-born citizen. Supreme Court judges could have written legal opinions and published them as op-eds in the NYT. And it would not have made any difference. Cruz might as well have spit into a hurricane, the Democrats and the MSM would have been pounding on him every day. By the time they got done with him, he’d have been lucky to win 10 states.

    “I have tried VERY hard to get my mind around President Trump, but it gets harder every time he pops off with some fantasy tweet.”
    Maybe you should stop watching what he says and instead watch what he does.

    He won against the Democrats, the Democrat MSM, the GOPe, the Deep State, etc. all against him. So maybe he’s got a better idea than you for the winning way to communicate to the people.

    fred-2 (ce04f3)

  78. Don’t get me wrong, I think Cruz a fine man. He would make a outstanding SCJ I think. He just doesn’t meet the qualifications for CIC.

    Leon (168f33)

  79. New York City? Time to change your brand. [YouTube]

    papertiger (c8116c)

  80. http://donsurber.blogspot.com/2017/03/media-owes-president-trump-apology.html?m=1

    What a load of horseshit.

    On a day when the Wall Street Journal implied that President Trump a drunken liar, House Intelligence Chairman Devin Nunes confirmed that Barack Obama wiretapped the Trump campaign.

    Nnnnnnnope.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  81. You line up with the Schiffs, Schumers, Durbins, Pelosis you are not the solution, you are the problem.

    You line up with prevaricating sniffers of Trump butt, you are part of the destruction of whatever was once good about the Republican party.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  82. They signed on to the Iran deal, which was brokered through russia. The reactors at bushehr being the most direct russian tie.

    narciso (6ff44f)

  83. Leon, it’s birthers nonsense that involves inventing things that aren’t in the Constitution.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  84. As for that CNN story that says Trump team peoples coordinated with Russians:

    Patterico (115b1f)

  85. Yes I found that argument rather weak, philosophy not geography in itself.

    narciso (6ff44f)

  86. I like my team. One doesn’t need to do what you characterize to know there is a better choice to make than siding with those who refuse to allow the lawful transition of power – intentionally or not. Good, noble intentions will not outweigh bad results. The majority of “Conservatives” used to understand that. Some still do.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  87. Patterico, few of the public understands the difference between target wiretapping and incidental collection. And if Trump was collected incidentally and that material was then disseminated improperly, the difference becomes far narrower.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  88. If they were sincerely looking for Russian spies, who were more likely to be in the Buffett at the white house commissAry these last four years.

    narciso (6ff44f)

  89. “Oh, really?!” [jpg]

    Some conditions aren’t covered by the Cadillac plan.

    Fortunately, there’s a self help book.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  90. Patterico, few of the public understands the difference between target wiretapping and incidental collection.

    It’s incumbent on Big Media and bloggers to explain the difference, rather than obscure it, which is what most are doing tonight.

    And if Trump was collected incidentally and that material was then disseminated improperly, the difference becomes far narrower.

    I have no idea whether Trump was collected incidentally. There has been a lot of improper dissemination, that is for damned sure, and I hope people go to jail over it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  91. “Wished without any real hope”? Maybe. “Hoped”? Nah.

    Perhaps “prayed.”

    Winning the election was an undiscovered country. To this day I am hoping the they don’t eff it up. The appointments are fine, mostly (the Labor Secretary not so fine), and the instincts of the administration are pretty good — surprising in several respects. But the execution isn’t so good, and anything that involves the President is a mess. The GOP needs to get out in front of this.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  92. Death to Democrat obfuscators and their running dogsh*t, leprous co-conspirators…

    Well, yes, but a person with the stones for the big chair wouldn’t have a problem with this. Imagine them trying this on Reagan, or Bill Clinton for that matter. Trump. though, just throws gasoline on the fire, and sometimes on himself, allies and strangers, too.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  93. You mean Acosta, yes he’s a mixed bag in addition to the Epstein thing, he’s blanc mange on amnesty.

    narciso (6ff44f)

  94. Newsflash: The Presidnet *is* the admistration.

    God, I hope not. I hope the day is coming where the Cabinet calls him in and says “You’re fired!”

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  95. I like my team.

    I can tell you do. I don’t any more.

    One doesn’t need to do what you characterize to know there is a better choice to make than siding with those who refuse to allow the lawful transition of power – intentionally or not. Good, noble intentions will not outweigh bad results. The majority of “Conservatives” used to understand that. Some still do.

    The majority of “conservatives” used to stand for limited government and for the truth. And considered standing up for honesty to be admirable rather than “virtue signalling.”

    Some still do. Fewer and fewer these days though. Thanks to your team.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  96. Trump is the leader of his party. But it’s like baseball. If the team isn’t performing, it’s the manager who gets fired. Especially if he attends all the games in a clown suit.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  97. This is so unnecessary. Even a bag of hammers would be better. But this is the country’s last chance before the cliff. I want it to work. I suppose a few days next week I’ll be defending Trump again. But it’s fewer and fewer days each month.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  98. It is what it is. I like what I’ve seen Trump and his team try to do so far. It’s far from perfection, but it is – for the most part – a step in the right direction. I’ve also witnessed what Democrats, the media (but I repeat myself), have done and are continuing to do… and I’ve also seen the actions and invective of some misguided people who refuse to put their personal disappointment in the results of the 2016 primary season and the November election in the rear view mirror. They are far from the voices of reason they seem to be hell-bent on convincing others they are. Pretty f*cking far from it, actually.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  99. Will WSJ issue a retraction?

    Looks like they are going in the same direction as the rest of the deranged media.

    Blah (44eaa0)

  100. Virtue signaling, lol …. ironic since it implies the party actually has none and is a fugazy. Sounds like NeverTrumpers … more about their cocktail party invites and theatre buddies than actually getting something done. Reminds me of State Rights advocates circa 1859 using “principles” to preserve slavery.

    Blah (44eaa0)

  101. The wall street urinal is still around? so sad.

    mg (31009b)

  102. I’ve also seen the actions and invective of some misguided people who refuse to put their personal disappointment in the results of the 2016 primary season and the November election in the rear view mirror. They are far from the voices of reason they seem to be hell-bent on convincing others they are. Pretty f*cking far from it, actually.

    Huh. I’ve seen the actions and invective of some misguided people who think that “winning” is what matters even if it means “winning” at enacting big government policies and at pushing false narratives. They are far from the voices of reason they seem to be hell-bent on convincing others they are. Pretty f*cking far from it, actually.

    Patterico (78ec77)

  103. This health care bill is an utter fucking disaster and Trump is 1000% behind it.

    I Hope He Fails.

    Patterico (78ec77)

  104. #105 LOL, as I said, deranged.

    So let me get this, if the Freedom Caucus likes the bill you still want it to fail because Trump supports it?

    I know for one if they get on board then I am all in (not that it matters at all).

    I hear their critiques and I am sympathetic but end of the day ripping that law apart is a good thing moreso than bad thing. And I am all for more good even if not enough is produced to my satisfaction.

    Blah Blah (44eaa0)

  105. @105. 1000%??

    This ‘Rosemary’s Baby’ is ‘Ryan’s Daughter.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  106. Yeah, who am I kidding, I can’t stay away. So, Mr. Patterico: if there were a button you could push that, upon pausing it, would result in men dressed in white carrying nets hauling Trump off to the loony bin, but would also result in a second Great Depression for a decade, would you press it. Consulting my Magic 7 Ball (sorry, couldn’t afford the model 8), the answer appears to be: All Signs Point to Yes!

    Estarcarus (cd97e1)

  107. Pausing it? Ehhhh, no. Pushing it, yes. My spelling is so pour that my auto-correct shut itself down. And yes, I know, it’s poor.

    Estarcarus (cd97e1)

  108. My auto-correct shot itself a year ago. RIP.

    Rev. Hoagie® (785e38)

  109. Yeah, who kneads it.

    Estarcarus (cd97e1)

  110. “99. This is so unnecessary. Even a bag of hammers would be better. But this is the country’s last chance before the cliff. I want it to work. I suppose a few days next week I’ll be defending Trump again. But it’s fewer and fewer days each month.”

    Just remember what the opposition has planned for you. You and the rest of us.

    Just think about that, and the fact that Trump is the only thing standing between you (us) and them. And go ahead and prefer that he be cut down because you don’t like him or the way he talks. I’m sure that will earn you points, as they stand you up against a wall.

    “Huh. I’ve seen the actions and invective of some misguided people who think that “winning” is what matters even if it means “winning” at enacting big government policies and at pushing false narratives.”

    Winning is what matters, when the options are winning with a rude dude you don’t like, or losing and having Hillary’s policies in place.
    Unfortunately, Ronald Reagan isn’t an option these days. You have to choose among the actual options, even if you’d prefer an option that isn’t on the table.

    fred-2 (ce04f3)


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