Patterico's Pontifications

11/17/2011

Does the GOP nominee’s ideology matter?

Filed under: 2012 Election — Karl @ 8:35 am



[Posted by Karl]

Having critiqued Nate Silver’s model for calculating the odds of various GOP candidates winning the 2012 presidential election — particularly his inclusion and assessment of candidate ideology —  I was curious as to what political scientists would make of his model.

Brendan Nyhan and Jacob Montgomery do the most extensive deconstruction of Silver’s model, pointing out that it performs worse than Douglas Hibbs’ “Bread and Peace” model (which Silver criticized) on out-of-sample data, and has a larger mean average error than all of the most well-known election forecasting models.

Regarding candidate ideology, Nyhan and Montgomery add:

First, when the economy is growing and presidential approval is high, strong moderate candidates may be scared off from entering the race, leaving only ideologues. A similar effect has been shown when one party has held the presidency for a long period of time. When this happens, the opposition tends to perform better due to the perception that is “time for a change”, and opposition parties are likely to nominate more moderate candidates in the hopes of regaining control of the White House at the expense of ideological purity.

Second, the estimates of challenger ideology that Silver uses are primarily drawn from voter perceptions of the candidates. However, these perceptions are driven by the content of the campaign, which is itself shaped by the economic context. Candidates who appear extreme in one era may seem less so in the next (consider the changing perceptions of Ronald Reagan between 1976 and 1980, for instance). For all of these reasons, Silver’s estimates of the effects of challenger ideology and election outcomes are likely to be significantly exaggerated.

Similarly, Seth Masket notes:

[P]erceptions of the Republican nominee’s ideological stances may well change by next year. It’s very hard to make realistic projections of Cain’s governing ideology since he’s never governed before. Perry would be facing a more liberal electorate than he’s ever faced, and Romney would be facing a more conservative one. Plus, given Romney’s history, there should be substantially large error bars on either side of his line.

Indeed, while I cannot find a good link at the moment, some political scientists argue that voters’ perception of ideology would be a better variable for forecasting.

Alan Abramowitz also has several problems with Silver’s model.  Of course, Abramowitz has his own “Time For a Change” model, which gives Obama a good chance of winning a second term even with fairly modest economic growth next year and an approval rating in the low- to mid-forties.  It’s worth noting the “Time For a Change” model has over-predicted the vote of the incumbent candidate by at least 1.85% in each of the last four presidential elections.

For more criticism of Abramowitz’s model — and of election forecasting models generally — see Sean Trende.  Although I’m a fan of Trende’s work, his criticism of these models has its own weaknesses.  In particular, Trende does not really acknowledge political scientists admit the limitations of such models.  Nyhan among others stresses the problem inherent in a small data set, and the risk of overfitting models to conform to past results.  Hibbs will admit his model only accounts for approximately 77% of election results (iirc).  James E. Campbell, creator of the “Trial Heat and Economy” forecasting model would be the first to admit that model blew up (.pdf) in 2008 due to the intervention of the financial crisis.  That a model does not forecast unknown unknowns is not a strong criticism (even though some foresaw the financial panic, few would have pinpointed its eruption to the month).

But I digress.  The takeaway here is that election forecasting models are admittedly limited attempts to quantify the basic factors on which elections usually turn — peace and prosperity.  Other factors may matter, but the challenger’s ideology likely does not matter more than a point or two — which is within the margin of error for even the best models.  Silver’s model was probably a nice traffic driver for the New York Times, but it likely overestimates the effect of challenger ideology.  Nyhan and Montgomery did not directly test whether adding estimates of challenger ideology to existing forecasting models would improve their performance, but the Silver model’s large mean average error compared to others suggests an answer.

–Karl

255 Responses to “Does the GOP nominee’s ideology matter?”

  1. Ding!

    Karl (f07e38)

  2. Dong!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  3. Avon Calling.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  4. did you know, Karl, that missionaries are forbidden to enter KSA?
    Willard can never go there and hold hands with Prince Bandar like Bush did.
    Ronmey was a mormon missionary in France while his cohort was gettin’ shot up in the Nam.
    Wont that be embarrassing, if Willard cant go there?
    The Sauds are America’s allies, right?

    wheeler's cat (834485)

  5. o_0

    Book (1ecc3f)

  6. When election outcomes can move by as much as 5% based on a last-minute smear news story (e.g. Bush’s old drunk driving conviction reported just before the 2000 election), what do these models have to offer?

    Kevin M (563f77)

  7. So, what I’m ready is that the Republicans should offer a moderate change-agent?

    Kevin M (563f77)

  8. um…reading

    Kevin M (563f77)

  9. I think that Republicans tend to put too much emphasis on ideology in an election. Let me explain what I mean by that:

    Republicans have the idea that voters closely follow and truly care about policy choices, and that they need to move close to the center in order to be elected.

    That’s hogwash.

    Obama is a very good example of this. He is far left in his personal political leanings and those of us on the right who recognized that were absolutely positive that it would count against him once the primaries were over. Those of us who think substance matters over polish were hardest hit when all was said and done ’08.

    For the voters who wanted to know what his stance on the issues were- well they were whatever you wanted them to be! This drove the right crazy, because we saw through it. But swing voters don’t look that closely.

    You see? Obama won because he didn’t emphasize policy, he emphasized his likability. Primaries are important for those of us who care about policy, but Republicans would do well that when it comes time for the general election, the most important thing is image.

    Shallow, I know, but that’s how it is.

    Book (1ecc3f)

  10. I think if there is insufficient distinction between two politicians, that will heavily favor the incumbent.

    Also, one ideology is… correct, and the other is incorrect.

    Romneycare is bankrupting MA. Romney’s ability to spend a state into oblivion with entitlements, and then pander on social security, are important beyond how they affect his political hopes. They are bad for the country. His legacy is that he made MA worse. That and Deval Patrick. Let’s not make his further legacy a second term of Obama.

    I don’t think there’s enough data to make this analysis work anyway. I know that centrism can backfire badly, as it has in several recent elections, and I also know that centrism is hardly proven to help very much. How much did it help Mccain? I don’t think it helped him at all.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  11. Shallow, I know, but that’s how it is.

    But the REASON to win elections is to reform entitlement spending, the rest of the budget, and reform government generally, which takes a certain ideology.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  12. Rich democrap leftys do not want to part with their money.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  13. Donald Trump being a prime example.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  14. But the REASON to win elections is to reform entitlement spending, the rest of the budget, and reform government generally, which takes a certain ideology.

    Comment by Dustin — 11/17/2011 @ 9:35 am

    Yes, this is why primaries are important. However, reason has very little to do with a general election.

    You’re an intelligent person who understands what this country needs in order to be safe and successful. You’ve studied policy and the history of all of the candidates. WIth that in mind, you know which person is right for the job.

    Now put yourself in the average swing-voter’s shoes. THIS is the person who matters in the general election. We need to convince this person to come out and vote, and to vote for our guy.

    So what motivates this person? Is it stance on the issues? Not if he’s your average American. This person “knows” that all politicians are corrupt liars, though it’s his duty as an American to vote for one of them.

    So he picks the person who is going to make him feel best about himself for voting for them. He’s going to look for the person who looks the least corrupt and most likable overall and vote for that guy. (or gal.)

    That’s why image is more important.

    Book (1ecc3f)

  15. But the REASON to win elections is to reform entitlement spending, the rest of the budget, and reform government generally, which takes a certain ideology.

    Exactly. If the nominee doesn’t have the right ideology then what’s the point?

    Milhouse (f8511c)

  16. Exactly. If the nominee doesn’t have the right ideology then what’s the point?

    Comment by Milhouse — 11/17/2011 @ 9:47 am

    Let me ask you something, would John McCain be a better president than Barack Obama?

    (I’m going to use my psychic powers here and pretend I saw you nod your head)

    Not the ideal president, mind you, but the better president, for sure.

    So why didn’t McCain get elected over Obama? Let’s simplify the narrative down to what Average Joe American saw at the time.

    For Mr. AJA, the election boiled down to this: pasty, older white guy, who looks and talks very much like every other corrupt politician we’ve ever had in office VS Shiny! New! Young black man with a cute family and a catchy slogan and lots of confetti. Also some columns and a hot chick on YouTube.

    So Mr. AJA says to himself “What does it say about me if I vote for the old guy and what doe it say about me if I vote for Mr. YesWeCan?” Well Mr. YesWeCan gives Mr. AJA a chance to be a part of history, to be a voter for the first black president of the US, and to usher in an era of Hope! and Change!… and Mr. OldandGrey is offering me a chance to do something or other related to the economy and also possibly wars or something.

    Do you see what I’m driving at here? Your average Joe does not follow Keynes and Hayek, they do not understand or care about foreign policy. In the general election all that matters is how the candidate makes the voter feel about himself.

    So during the primaries, it is important to elect the person who will govern the most efficiently and conservatively… but it is also important to remember that the general is coming soon. And although that pasty old white guy* might have the better track record, he is not going to do well when standing next to the sweet and shiny thang that the democrats have chosen for their candidate.

    During the primaries we have to find a balance between policy and polish. Because in 2012, the swing voters will only care about polish.

    *I’m not talking about any specific candidate here, I’m using this description to illustrate a point.

    Book (1ecc3f)

  17. I think you have a great point, Book. I’m not sure I agree entirely with you, because I do think two polished panderers with ideological confusion at best just favors the incumbent. Obama’s campaign will be very effective in this case. Mudslinging will work very well in this case. Mudslinging vs an ideological difference and a powerful record is not going to work as well. We probably just have different guesses about this, though.

    I have a baseline for how far I’m willing to compromise ideology. I just can’t bend beyond a certain point.

    That’s not to say, if the GOP goes too far and nominates a very competent liberal technocrat I won’t vote for him. I’ll vote for the best candidate I’m offered.

    But ultimately, what’s the point? This nation has a debt level that is higher than our GDP. It’s not clear how we’ll ever recover from that. We’ve got an entitlement bomb that goes off if we don’t take major hard action to stop it. The centrist status quo politicians who are competent are better, but totally insufficient.

    It’s like fighting a wildfire wearing cotton instead of doing it naked. What’s the point of this distinction?

    Polish matters a lot. You’re 100% right. Ever since JFK, the era of Lincoln caliber presidents has been over. But there’s only so far I can go to trade a hope of repairing this country for a slick politician.

    Also, we’re jaded as a culture by 40 years of commercials. People don’t trust slick.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  18. (even though some foresaw the financial panic, few would have pinpointed its eruption to the month).

    I think maybe this could have been done, but not through any model. It would involve carefully looking at things and then projecting how people would act. Lehman had I think some kind of a loan that expired on September 15, 2008. That’s why they had to file for bankruptcy that day.

    I think the loan was for six months – it had and had been guaranteed by the Fed but they refused to extend it. Something like that, but I can’t find it. I read something like that once, but I don’t remember any key words to search. It’s really obscure but there was some loan that expired September 15, 2008, and if that loan had not been made, Lehman Brothers would have collapsed six months before. I was apparent for some time in advance that they would not be able to roll over that loan. If you could predict Lehman would not be rescued and the consequences of not rescuing it then you could predict the month.

    What about now?

    I haven’t done it, but if someone was informed enough, they might very well be able to predict when the Euro crisis will ripen, and then whether it will cause a worldwide depression, or whether Ben Bernanke will rescue the Euro. I tend to feel there will be intervention just enough to prevent a depression but not enough to get real growth started.

    I also think Iran will be probably be the target of some military action around March or April.

    Sammy Finkelman (2d0c86)

  19. I also think Iran will be probably be the target of some military action around March or April.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman — 11/17/2011 @ 10:49 am

    Sadly, I do worry that this is going to be timed in the most cynical manner. Gutsycall.com

    I also think the democrats will try to encourage a third party. That means some candidates automatically have a fatal flaw.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  20. So, you have a pleasant fellow, who can smile sincerely, and who hit’s BHO over the head, every day at every hour with the question to Mr. AJA:
    Are you better off today than you were four years ago?”

    AD-RtR/OS! (772aab)

  21. “fellow/gal”

    Sorry, Betty!

    AD-RtR/OS! (772aab)

  22. Sammy if you believe this effete piece of crap will bomb or send the military to iran your mistaken.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  23. Polish matters a lot. You’re 100% right. Ever since JFK, the era of Lincoln caliber presidents has been over. But there’s only so far I can go to trade a hope of repairing this country for a slick politician.

    Also, we’re jaded as a culture by 40 years of commercials. People don’t trust slick.

    Comment by Dustin — 11/17/2011 @ 10:49 am

    I understand, and I agree with you. I should probably clarify-I probably shouldn’t have called image the most “important” thing. It would be more accurate to call it he deciding factor.

    A lot of Republicans have this idea that we need to vote in a moderate because that’s the only way we’ll win an election.

    This is false.

    Our candidate can absolutely be 100% conservative, so long as he likable as well. It is that likability that will get him elected in the long run.

    Case in Point: Barack Obama= 100% liberal, but also very likable. Thus- he wins the presidency.

    Book (1ecc3f)

  24. Let me ask you something, would John McCain be a better president than Barack Obama?

    Well, yeah, but so what? Hillary Clinton would be a better president than Barack Obama. Algore would probably be a better president than Barack Obama. I see no reason to bother nominating a candidate against the Democrats if the best we can do is a John McCain or a Bob Dole. In 1996 I saw no reason to vote for Dole over Clinton, and to this day I’ve learned nothing to change my mind. The fact that Dole wore a team-R jersey and Clinton a team-D one makes no difference that I can see. If the only way to win the general election is to nominate a Democrat then let the Democrats do it.

    Milhouse (f8511c)

  25. Sammy if you believe this effete piece of crap will bomb or send the military to iran your mistaken.

    Comment by DohBiden — 11/17/2011 @ 11:06 am

    Obama has no compunction against sending a man into harm’s way.

    Let alone a robotic aircraft or guided missile.

    If he follows the Libya model for Iran, we are going to be in for some rocky aftermath.

    The entire country lacks the commitment to follow the Bush model. But that is, long term, the least painful way. We had our chance, and blew it, I think, to really deliver Iran from herselves. As an Iranian who loves liberal democracy, I’m a little sore about it. I grant that the USA can’t possibly fix every problem out there, nor does it have the right to, but Iran with nukes? That is or was a preventable disease.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  26. If the voters are given a choice between a D-democrat, and an R-democrat, they’ll vote for the Democrat every time.

    AD-RtR/OS! (772aab)

  27. Comment by Book — 11/17/2011 @ 11:10 am

    I see the distinction you’re making now. Interesting.

    Of course, beggars can’t be choosy.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  28. No offense to modellers in general, and Solar and Climate scientists included, but ideology is an abstraction standing in for friggin’ ideas placed on the damned table and some chalky-faced dweebs charting their outcome.

    What do these people use for brains?

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  29. If the only way to win the general election is to nominate a Democrat then let the Democrats do it.

    Comment by Milhouse — 11/17/2011 @ 11:12 am

    Well, sure, I guess if you are an all-or-nothing type of person, I guess this makes sense. Personally, I’d rather have some of the results I was hoping for instead of none of the results. Long-term, that’s better for the country than allowing the nation to become used to far left governing.

    But that’s off topic. We were talking about how to win an election, not voting habits. 🙂

    Book (1ecc3f)

  30. Comment by gary gulrud — 11/17/2011 @ 11:17 am

    They have brains?
    Now, that, is news.
    …film at Eleven…

    AD-RtR/OS! (772aab)

  31. As soon as I learned that Romney’s campaign donors were being asked to fund romney’s son’s private venture, I knew how Mitt actually got his initial push to success and became worried about his lack of basic ethics.

    I did not expect this Nixon level kind of BS, though.

    Mitt simply lacks the personal character to be President. He only wins when compared to Obama, which is why his defenders insist on unity now and ignoring the very real distinctions between Romney and his competitors. Newt and Perry aren’t perfect men, but they have never done anything like destroy records.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  32. Newt and Perry aren’t perfect men, but they have never done anything like destroy records.

    Comment by Dustin — 11/17/2011 @ 12:27 pm

    Interesting. I hadn’t seen that article, thanks for the heads-up, Dustin.

    I am not a Romney supporter- not yet, anyway. (yea, I’m keeping options open. My apologies if that makes me a squish.)

    I WILL say that, completely putting politics aside, wiping a computer and erasing documents from computers that were owned by a corporation once that individual leaves that corporation, is not at all uncommon. In my line of work, it would not be at all strange for me to work or consult for someone and then to wipe clean the computers of anything pertaining to my work once the job is completed. It’s possible they were thinking along the same lines- particularly since this is a government office.

    Honestly, I’d be surprised if they didn’t wipe out all of their emails. Do we really need the media going on and on about how Romney’s secretary’s secretary once forwarded a chain-mail about bad female drivers and men who love cats or some such?

    As for Newt and Perry… well, both have image issues, some good and some bad. Perry is a good governor with a fairly good record, but he stinks when it comes to speaking, much less debating. Newt is sort of the definition of old-and-busted, (vs Obama’s “new hotness”) though he is the better debater. His record also stinks. (Scozzafava? Pelosi & global warming? Paul Ryan is too right wing?)

    I don’t suppose we could use some sort of Star-Trekian, transpormutatatron device and extract the good from each candidate and make a shiny new candidate? No?

    Book (1ecc3f)

  33. I’ve enjoyed the talk, Book.

    There are reasons to support Romney, and certainly there are reasons to resist supporting every one of his opponents. I just disagree.

    Do we really need the media going on and on about how Romney’s secretary’s secretary once forwarded a chain-mail about bad female drivers and men who love cats or some such?

    In my opinion, yes. But if no, they must change the law. They can’t just destroy what is legally required. That’s Nixon rules, and it leads to a bad place.

    As for Newt and Perry… well, both have image issues, some good and some bad. Perry is a good governor with a fairly good record, but he stinks when it comes to speaking, much less debating. Newt is sort of the definition of old-and-busted, (vs Obama’s “new hotness”) though he is the better debater. His record also stinks. (Scozzafava? Pelosi & global warming? Paul Ryan is too right wing?)

    All this is more or less true. I think Perry can debate well, but is unreliable. I think he can speak great when he’s not debating, and I think his campaign puts out the best adverts, which I think is sadly more important.

    I don’t suppose we could use some sort of Star-Trekian, transpormutatatron device and extract the good from each candidate and make a shiny new candidate?

    Newt’s brain with Perry’s results in that perfected image that Romney brings? Yeah, the thought has occurred to me.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  34. Fake Candidate blames media for asking real questions:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/11/17/cain-complains-that-cuba-policy-questions-in-florida-are-gotchas/

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  35. Oh good Allah. Not more nonsense.

    JD (002c72)

  36. JD

    Cain the Blame, blames media 🙂

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  37. That is not at all what I was referring to.

    JD (002c72)

  38. But Karl…..dont you think that might be IMPORTANT?
    If Romney is elected he cant get into KSA.
    Missionaries cannot enter the Kingdom.
    It would probably affect his relationship with the Saudi Royals and in turn would affect the price of gas.

    wheeler's cat (834485)

  39. In this case, I think Eric has a legit gripe. This is a specific issue I’m not clear why Cain wouldn’t answer. I mean, I find it impossible that he wouldn’t be fully aware of the issue. I know some are saying he must have never heard of it, but that’s just impossible.

    Florida is a key state, obviously, and this is an issue that every presidential candidate is obviously going to need to discuss.

    I think Cain probably just didn’t have a perfect answer ready. After all, the policy is bizarre. What’s the big difference between getting a mile from shore and making it to shore? Is this a game show? The policy is one of those half measure compromise things that doesn’t neatly make a lot of sense in and of itself. So he didn’t have a slick way to explain whether it was good or bad.

    It’s not a gotcha question. He just is wary at this point from the various questions he’s handled poorly. That’s probably a good instinct, but it also shows that he’s not ready for this.

    That said, I can’t recall Obama being hounded like this. Has he ever answered this question off the cuff like that? I bet he’d sound no better.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  40. Eric the blame,blames his mother for all his ills in life.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  41. No, it’s the hair splitting idiocy, that Clinton specialized in, the rule set up by the Cuban Adjustment Act, was very clear, but the Pillsbury
    Doughboy, had to fudge the matter, this is also akin to how the BTR fliers were killed, mixed signals, That being said, Cain should have somebody
    able to brief him,

    narciso (ef1619)

  42. Dustin – I was referring to that clown’s habit of claiming people he does not support are fake candidates. It is a recurring theme.

    JD (002c72)

  43. Ah yes opposing defecating on cars opposing lice and TB and gang rapes is apathy and ignorance.

    I would agree with the tools at OWS but their guy Obama got his money from wall street and corporate greed.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  44. JD

    FAKEY FAKE FAKE FAKER

    Said:

    Ace, Fox News several pundits, Rove, just about everyone

    FAKEY FAKE FAKE FAKER

    Cain the bookseller

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  45. Eric what the hell do you mean with that ishkabibble?

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  46. Dustin – I rest my case.

    JD (002c72)

  47. Dustin – I was referring to that clown’s habit of claiming people he does not support are fake candidates. It is a recurring theme.

    Comment by JD — 11/17/2011 @ 2:33 pm

    What in the world are you talking about?

    FAKEY FAKE FAKE FAKER

    Cain the bookseller

    Comment by EricPWJohnson —

    Oh.

    Yeah, I see your point.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  48. Fake Candidate backs out of agreed media interview with New Hampshires Leading Newspaper –

    http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/17/8862478-cain-disappointed-to-miss-newspaper-meeting-nope

    After missing a free hour of top publicity in a key primary state

    The former pizza magnate flies to New York City tonight to tape an appearance with David Letterman.

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  49. I’m not a fan of Herman Cain btw.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  50. I feel bad for Cain.

    The way he’s been attacked is not healthy for the party. He’s not my favorite. I don’t think he’s ready at all for this. But the intense pressure for slickness really gets on my nerves.

    Someone doesn’t have to be polished to be a great candidate. I love Cain’s lack of finesse at times. Yeah, sometimes it shows he’s unprepared, and that’s not what I’m talking about.

    It doesn’t do my guy any good to detract that guy for this kind of reason. Same pool of supporters, hopefully.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  51. Doh

    How many blogs have you been banned from?

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  52. Hey, I got banned from Brad Blog, Daily KOS, and Little Green Footballs. Also, I was ejected from a Grandy’s restaurant fifteen years ago.

    What do I win?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  53. Oh good Allah.

    JD (318f81)

  54. We need a leader, not a reader!” he exclaimed at a rally, for which he was an hour late. The crowd was thinner – at about 100 attendees – than Cain’s campaign had initially advertised

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  55. “Newt and Perry aren’t perfect men, but they have never done anything like destroy records.”

    Dustin – You have made it clear you hate Romney, but swallowing New York Times owned Boston Globe hit jobs whole is EPWJ level nuts.

    Try reading the story again. Does it say Romney or his folks destroyed records? Can you point that out please?

    The state archives says it has 700-800 boxes of Romney Admin. emails. What was destroyed? Unnamed sources in the Duval Admin. are just whining about not having computer access to stuff.

    They get quotes from a guy from state archives who says it’s unusual for people to take hard drives or computers with them when they leave the government, but later we learn it is longstanding practice within the governor’s office.

    We also learn that Mitt and his folks consulted with the state archives about document retention before leaving office.

    Are they allegations of wrongdoing? No. Just vague insinuations.

    You should be better than this.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  56. Well the unfair cuts certainly, from the Sorosphere, but saying you can’t invade Iran, because of the mountains,

    narciso (ef1619)

  57. Me too.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  58. Eric how many braincells are left?

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  59. Surprised we have not been compared to Eric Robert Rudolph.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  60. I oppose Abortion but I believe abortion clinic bombers are evil.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  61. Capehart the race baiting clown probably thinks Perry is Eric Rudolphs inspiration.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  62. Is the problem really the GOP’s ideology, or is it something else

    http://bigjournalism.com/mchastain/2011/11/17/jonathan-alter-responds-to-fast-and-furious-coverage-inquiry/

    narciso (ef1619)

  63. Do I remember correctly that there was a script available to hide DohBiden’s comments? Anyone have a link?

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  64. 56. Didn’t stop Tamerlane in pursuit of the ‘assassins’.

    The Contras in El Salvador had the idea.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  65. You should be better than this.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 11

    You every going to back up your accusation that Perry is “chicago level corrupt”?

    Nope.

    I’m not surprised you have a very well informed excuse for Romney, yet again.

    Romney’s governor, and he is responsible for corruption in his administration. I have zero doubt that Romney did not personally destroy the records, but so what?

    I’m sick and tired of Romney’s fans forgiving him for his unbelievably bad record. You have taken umbrage that I’d call him a tax and spend liberal even though Romneycare, signed into law by Romney, is absolutely a tax and spend disaster.

    He’s got this record. He now has yet another sleazy scandal for his fans to pretend away while claiming he is clean. He’s the guy who is responsible for his own administration.

    I refuse to lower my standards just to be ‘better’ for the standard of someone who compared his treatment of Perry to EPWJ’s treatment of Palin.

    Romney had a duty to run his administration within the law. I can only imagine what more will come, but he’s a shameless and unprincipled flip flopper, and some of his decisions show he’s just not fit for a position of responsibility.

    Romney is a good follower, and perhaps there’s room for his keen mind under the firm control of a principled leader.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  66. What did I do?

    All I said was Capehart is a race baiter.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  67. Do I remember correctly that there was a script available to hide DohBiden’s comments? Anyone have a link?

    Comment by carlitos — 11/17/2011 @ 3:58 pm

    Use firefox, have greasemonkey installed, and then use this.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  68. Sullivan a conservative?

    Surrrrrre…………….that makes him a lefty in america.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  69. I said nothing wrong all I said was Capehart is a race baiting POS.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  70. You have made it clear you hate Romney, but swallowing New York Times owned Boston Globe hit jobs whole is EPWJ level nuts.

    BTW, no, I don’t hate Romney. I’m fair to him.

    It’s hilarious after a relentless barrage of hard left BS linked to smear Romney’s opponents that sheer hypocrites would now whine about their own behavior.

    There’s nothing EPWJ nuts about my rejection of Romney, which I am willing to explain on specific grounds.

    What’s EPWJ nuts is Daleyrock’s treatment of Perry, and that’s Daleyrock’s own excuse ‘I’m just giving him a taste of his own medicine’. For all I know, Daleyrocks just hates Perry because EPWJ likes him.

    You can speak to me about hate when you apologize for your disgusting anti vaccination fear mongering. My aunt died of cervical cancer in Houston, btw. Not that this grants me moral authority, but your slimeball way of discussing Gardasil has proven to me that I was completely mistaken about you. That is a serious matter for adults. It’s not the ‘needle of sex’.

    Did Romney’s administration destroy records they are required by law to preserve? My understanding is that they did. If the press is making that up, well shame on them and I’m so sorry for my good faith assumption that this lie would be corrected (and it hasn’t been).

    What’s tearing this party apart is how a set of Romney fans (a vocal minority I am sure) are obsessed with insane defenses of this gorgeous brilliant perfect man who never sinned a day in his life. I honestly do not get it. The man has made so many mistakes in his political life. He’s failed to rise to many an occasion. I’m not just picking on him for no reason.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  71. Romney flip-flops a lot.

    Go ahead romneybot put me on ignore too.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  72. Dustin – You have made it clear you hate Romney, but swallowing New York Times owned Boston Globe hit jobs whole is EPWJ level nuts.

    Comment by daleyrocks

    Yep… he’s the guy who describes me as “prolific” after he’s written his latest dissertations about “Romney this” and “Romney that”… all because I’d asked if anyone knew how Rick Perry was able to afford a “Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous” sort of lifestyle on his salary of $150K.

    Then Dustin and a few other posters then indicated they saw absolutely nothing unethical in a politician accepting gifts and substantial gratuities in exchange for access and favored treatment.

    He’s a funny guy and he’s sweet on Perry. NTTATWWT.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  73. Let the “Dance of the Perry Victory Mincers” begin!

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  74. That destroying records thing seems like a pretty blatant political smear. Ironic that Rubin, and Gov Duval, and the MFM drag this out 4 years after the fact.

    JD (002c72)

  75. single. digits. deal. with. it.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  76. Project much Daleyscum?

    we have idiots who believe Rick Perry is racist for calling out Obamas privileged lifestyle.

    So do not go there if you know what is best for you.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  77. Romney has no principles deal with it troll.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  78. Eric “PeeWee” Johnson deserves a good Caining!

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  79. “You every going to back up your accusation that Perry is “chicago level corrupt”?”

    Dustin – Are you going to address my comment at #55 or just deflect again? Your ongoing nastiness toward other commenters and other candidates while accusing others of the same is tiresome.

    Remind me when and the context in which you claim I said the above and I’ll address it. If it’s in one of the comments I wrote harassing EPWJ that you claim you could not understand, it’s not worth it.

    If you could spend more time writing positive comments about your candidate, you would not have to spend as much time writing negative things about others. It’s too bad you have limited material with which to work.

    What is your beef with Tagg Romney’s investment firm? Is it based on Lee Fang’s hit piece from Think Prpgress?

    “I’m not surprised you have a very well informed excuse for Romney, yet again.” – You mean I actually read the article you linked instead of just calling Romney a Nixonian crook as you did? SHOCKA!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  80. That destroying records thing seems like a pretty blatant political smear. Ironic that Rubin, and Gov Duval, and the MFM drag this out 4 years after the fact. This is no more of a scandal than going to Starbucks would be. They should easily be able to show how laws were broken, records illegally destroyed, etc … Anonymous Duval sources in the MFM do not a scandal make. And I cannot stand Mittsy.

    JD (002c72)

  81. Haiku, you failed to back up your argument in that case. You lost the argument.

    Anyone can go see for themselves. Your link was to Jennifer Rubin, and it was simply irrational. It was a screed about how Perry dares to have a Governor’s residence, so he must be taking bribes when he flies on an aircraft to deliver a speech.

    I noted I thought his lifestyle was paid by Perry. That’s what it is when someone is compensated for doing their job. A governor’s salary and residence in the capital are compensation for being governor.

    I see you have again suggested I am homosexual. You and Daley like calling Perry gay. Says a lot about the both of you that you both use the trashiest gutter slurs.

    Do you see me doing that to Romney? Nope. I just point out his record. In this case, his administration reportedly destroyed the people’s records of his behavior. This is a pattern of sleazy decisions, such as the illegal immigrant lawn crew, after he was shown his church buddy’s attitude about documenting workers. Romney knew these guys were illegals, but the two Romney mansions continued getting illegal lawn care. It’s similar to how Romney’s campaign donors are hit up for cash for private business ventures for Romney’s son. That’s really sleazy.

    If Perry were hitting up his donors to “invest” millions to his daughter’s business, you would object. Romney does it, and apparently I’m a homosexual to point it out.

    Trashy. The two of you are simply trashy.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  82. Coulter has lost her sh*t. Skank thinks Romney will save our butts.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  83. Yes but calling Perry a corrupt far-righty is perfectly alright.

    I’m not Perry’s biggest fan but you people are no better than the palinbots with you claim to have an intense hatred of with your ad hom.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  84. Colonel Haiku thinks it is perfectly ok to question a person’s sexuality if you don’t bow and curtsy at Romneys feet.

    SHOCKA!!!

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  85. That destroying records thing seems like a pretty blatant political smear. Ironic that Rubin, and Gov Duval, and the MFM drag this out 4 years after the fact. This is no more of a scandal than going to Starbucks would be. They should easily be able to show how laws were broken, records illegally destroyed, etc … Anonymous Duval sources in the MFM do not a scandal make. And I cannot stand Mittsy.

    Comment by JD — 11/17/2011 @ 4:33 pm

    I value your opinion, but I think it’s pretty serious.

    Yes, it’s sad this is coming out so long after the fact. I’m surprised they didn’t hold it for October 2012. Yes, it’s obviously politically motivated.

    But it’s serious to me if administrations destroy records.

    We’ll see what comes of it. Has Romney denied his administration did this?

    Then Dustin and a few other posters then indicated they saw absolutely nothing unethical in a politician accepting gifts and substantial gratuities in exchange for access and favored treatment.

    This is a lie. This is the exact opposite of what I said.

    You tell lie after lie and I can’t possibly keep up with them. You accuse me of lying and refuse to back it up.

    You are trash.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  86. “That destroying records thing seems like a pretty blatant political smear.”

    JD – If you actually read the article, which it is now clear that Dustin did not before linking it and commenting, the reporter is clear that there are no allegations of impropriety, just whining.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  87. It’s like fighting a wildfire wearing cotton instead of doing it naked. What’s the point of this distinction?

    I know!, I know!… it would probably stop your fellow fire-fighters from doubling over in laughter – which is a plus – but would also cause the unnecessary death of the wildlife, which wouldn’t be fleeing quite as fast as they would in the presence of your Perry-lovin’ nakedness.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  88. which it is now clear that Dustin did not before linking it and commenting,

    Bullshit.

    You ever going to back up your allegation that Perry is chicago level corrupt, hypocrite?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  89. I may be trash, Dustin, but you just plain suck and you suck hard… lol!

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  90. I may be trash.

    Stop right there.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  91. Romney’s administration destroyed records.

    Deal with it.

    I’m not surprised, though. God knows how many people got incredibly wealthy from huge entitlements like Romneycare.

    When someone bankrupts their state and then destroys their communications, I want to know why.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  92. Dustin,

    destroying record of conversations and strategy sessions is perfectly understandable, clinton did it three times, twice as gov and once as president

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  93. You said you saw nothing wrong with the way Perry conducts business, Dustin. I’ve just described the way he conducts business… he sells access and influence to the highest bidder.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  94. Referring to Mitts

    However he stepped in it with Cavuto today

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  95. I may be trash, Dustin, but you just plain suck and you suck hard… lol!

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 11/17/2011 @ 4:43 pm

    You are trashy, Haiku. You have often noted this is what you think is funny.

    You lie, and then when called on it, hey, clown nose on. Or you scream like a little baby and tell me to burn in hell and call me ‘dead’.

    It’s pathetic. You Romney fanatics cannot persuade this way, and you know it. All you can do is respond to honest criticism with personal attacks, such as your calling me gay.

    Oh, and I recall when I said using the GI Bill for an education was pulling oneself up by their bootstraps, you said ‘bootstraps my ass’.

    You really are from the sewer.

    If someone wants to say they don’t really mind Romney’s admin destroying records, or point out this is obviously a political hit job, that’s fine. I think it’s ugly. I think in particular, it shows that the notion of Romney being stainless is every bit a load of crap.

    But go ahead and call me gay some more. I welcome you showing me the best arguments you’ve got.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  96. When someone bankrupts their state and then destroys their communications, I want to know why.

    and yet the mincing ponce hasn’t even the faintest hint of curiosity that Perry – for some unexplained reason – had his travel records sealed after accepting close to $2M in travel gifts from those who secured access to the Governor’s office.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  97. You said you saw nothing wrong with the way Perry conducts business, Dustin. I’ve just described the way he conducts business… he sells access and influence to the highest bidder.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 11/17/2011 @ 4:45 pm

    So you’re admitting you’re a shameless liar?

    I said I had a huge problem with the specific behavior you said I have no problem with.

    I disagree that someone having a governor’s residence is what you described it as. I disagree that taking a plane ride to give a speech is corruption.

    Thanks for admitting your dishonesty.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  98. I didn’t call you gay. That’s a lie! I said you’re a big Perry supporter and that there’s nothing wrong with that.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  99. “In this case, his administration reportedly destroyed the people’s records of his behavior.”

    Who claims his administration destroyed records? The state archives says it has 700-800 boxes of emails. WTF are you talking about? Did you actually read the article?

    Has Romney denied his administration did this? – What is there to deny? Who specifically is making any allegations? Is anybody named?

    “Romney knew these guys were illegals” – Wrong, this is merely your opinion again, not fact.

    “It’s similar to how Romney’s campaign donors are hit up for cash for private business ventures for Romney’s son. That’s really sleazy.”

    So after the 2008 campaign is over, Romney’s son and his chief fundraiser go into business together and call campaign donors to contribute to the investment fund and this is sleazy? OK

    Is that sleazier than Perry hiring that father and daughter team who worked for the big Spanish contractor bidding on the TTC who won a huge contract who then went back to work for the Spanish contractor, just one example of Perry’s revolving door?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  100. after accepting close to $2M in travel gifts from those who secured access to the Governor’s office.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 11/17/2011 @ 4:48 pm

    This is a pretty hacktastic way of describing a bunch of plane rides over a decade. Yeah, $2M in ‘gifts’, but nothing material gained. He agreed to give a speech to a group that flew him to where the speech was.

    Romney, on the other hand, wasted tens of billions, much of it federal bailout for Romneycare, and destroyed records. Or at least that’s what’s reported. Are you denying this happened?

    I thought you said this kind of respected journalist report was proof on its own, yesterday?

    If the allegations are false, then I’ll admit it when that’s demonstrated. From what I see, it’s a serious damn problem.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  101. Is that the Dance of the Victory Mincers, or just the foxtrot, Dustin?

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  102. Is that sleazier than Perry hiring that father and daughter team who worked for the big Spanish contractor bidding on the TTC who won a huge contract who then went back to work for the Spanish contractor, just one example of Perry’s revolving door?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 11/17/2011 @ 4:51 pm

    Yes. A lot sleazier. Are you kidding me?

    Someone calling up political supporters to give money to your own family is a lot sleazier than hiring a ‘father and daughter team’.

    TTC was too much too fast, but the idea of using contractors to make a highway is not corruption.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  103. “When someone bankrupts their state and then destroys their communications”

    Dustin – Which one of the 57 states has declared bankruptcy? Heh.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  104. Bet you do that cool “Charleston Bee’s Knees” thing too, Sparky.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  105. What’s funny is that when I guessed that Mitt hit up connections from his dad when he got his start with Bain, Daleyrocks flew off the handle demanding I prove it (I can’t… I was only guessing why someone with no accomplishments but related to a famous and well connected politician could bring in tens of millions like that).

    Now, this has happened to the next generation, only provably so, and Daleyrocks no longer finds this notion outrageous. It’s no big deal?

    Daleyrocks, you said you weren’t biased in Romney’s favor. Prove it. Is this behavior sleazy? No false equivocation. Is this behavior, in and of itself, something that you’d say was sleazy if Obama or Perry did it?

    Of course it is.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  106. Do not questions Dustin’s hit jobs. He doesn’t like it.

    Also do not question his class warfare rhetoric. It is irrelevant, which is why he keeps bringing it up.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  107. Groundhog Day

    JD (002c72)

  108. Dustin – Which one of the 57 states has declared bankruptcy? Heh.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 11/17/2011 @ 4:53 pm

    That’s not very funny.

    The federal government is bailing out Romneycare. That’s a fact. MA can’t afford Romney’s spending on its own.

    MA’s own treasurer uses the word bankruptcy to describe what Romneycare is doing to the state.

    Sorry, bud. Romney’s own signature has doomed MA.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  109. “Someone calling up political supporters to give money to your own family is a lot sleazier than hiring a ‘father and daughter team’.

    TTC was too much too fast, but the idea of using contractors to make a highway is not corruption.”

    Dustin – Nice try at deflection. Hiring a contractor is not corruption. Hiring a father and daughter team from a contractor and then awarding a huge contact to that contractor and then having that father daughter team depart to return to work for that same contractor stinks to high heaven.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  110. Do not questions Dustin’s hit jobs. He doesn’t like it.

    It’s OK to argue against my view.

    Call me gay, or use asinine ‘needle of sex’ anti vaccination claims about serious matters, and I’ll conclude you are trashy.

    JD explained why he rejects this story at this point. I disagree, but granted the merits of his point. I’ve also had many productive conversations with Romney supporters. There is this little group of crazy cult of Romney goons who go ballistic whenever their brilliant uber hero is criticized. Those guys tend to lack personal character.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  111. Just to think only 6 more weeks until it REALLY starts

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  112. Maybe they’ll do a better job than Bechtel

    narciso (ef1619)

  113. Hiring a contractor is not corruption. Hiring a father and daughter team from a contractor and then awarding a huge contact to that contractor and then having that father daughter team depart to return to work for that same contractor stinks to high heaven.

    I wasn’t deflecting. You never laid out your problem.

    I still am not clear what exactly you’re trying to say. Are you saying Perry hired these people to his administration, and then they left the admin when their company got a nice contract?

    Yeah, that does sound bad, actually. But you’ll need to lay out the details more clearly.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  114. “The federal government is bailing out Romneycare. That’s a fact. MA can’t afford Romney’s spending on its own.”

    Dustin – The federal government is bailing out Texas. I have very little faith that Perry has the testicular fortitude to cut federal government spending given how much he has come to rely on it as Governor of Texas. He is a pig at the federal trough. Why should voters trust a man with that kind of record to do the right thin in Washington? It would devastate his home state. It is just another of the Perry contradictions, just like his immigration rhetoric.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  115. “But you’ll need to lay out the details more clearly.”

    Dustin – It was in that Wapo article that somebody linked last night that you must have skipped over.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  116. “Are you saying Perry hired these people to his administration, and then they left the admin when their company got a nice contract?”

    Exactly

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  117. Actually, Daleyrocks should be thankful I even reply this ramblings. Too many of them have turned out to be horseshit. When it’s really obvious, he just puts the clown nose on. Hey, he was just kidding about that.

    Haiku has done this too. After a while, I feel like an idiot for even replying.

    Sorry, guys, I like Perry because he’s the only candidate with a proven conservative record. He’s about 90% in line with me on matters, and is experienced as well. Perry isn’t gay, nor am I, and it’s trashy to dismiss my views with that kind of crap, a long claimed smear from liberals who are mad about Perry’s leadership, such as cuts to education spending and other agencies, and 12 years of balanced budgets.

    I reject Romney because, at the end of the day, I just don’t trust him. Too many flip flops, too many of them shamelessly dishonest. His record sucks, too.

    He’s a smart man, but he’s just too slick. When I hear about corruption, do I give Romney the benefit of the doubt? Not really. That’s my bias and I’m not ashamed to admit it.

    If you want to disagree, good. That’s what I’m here. To argue about politics. But the trashy stuff indicates some have very little to offer in Romney’s defense but emotion.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  118. Dustin – It was in that Wapo article that somebody linked last night that you must have skipped over.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 11/17/2011 @ 5:05 pm

    The Jennifer Rubin one Haiku linked?

    I only read the stuff he quoted, and didn’t see it. The link I clicked didn’t work…. some kind of yahoo search engine error.

    But yeah, I didn’t read that part.

    Maybe you should work on your debate skills. You should lay out precisely what you’re saying, show some support for it, and lay off the personal judgment horseshit.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  119. Let me clarify, judgment of those who disagree. Judge Perry all day if you want. I could care less.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  120. Yep, just like how he rails about Federal bailouts of banks, while he conducts business with one that accepted $87M and that gave him and other members of his family several loans that have come under scrutiny and that he has had to pay fines for violations of campaign laws and other violations like claiming a homestead exemption on property while collecting rent from tenants and living in a taxpayer-funded home in Austin.

    Perry is a real piece-of-work.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  121. The federal government is bailing out Texas.

    Pathetic.

    You continue to try to convince yourself that Texas is not a conservative success story.

    That’s very unfortunate. Eventually, this primary will be over. No matter who wins, it’s really freaking clear that Texas is governed very well, with conservative ideas about government growth, and is a huge success compared against New York, California, Illinois, Massachusetts, and many other large states.

    There is a way out of the problems those states have, and Texas shows that way. It’s a very powerful argument for one ideology over another.

    You have often tried to explain that Texas is really not much different from MA, and it’s just absurd. It only shows a severe bias.

    There are much better ways to explain your refusal to support Perry than to pretend Texas isn’t a huge success.

    The guy sucks in debates half the time. It shouldn’t be this hard for you.

    I think you know that, but want to make a show of being ugly. The Needle of Sex and gay stuff aren’t necessary, but you choose them because that’s what you want to be like.

    If I were in your shoes, I’d apologize for that crap and try to keep the arguments adult. I think you’re capable of it. Haiku, … probably not, but hey, he’s free to prove me wrong any time.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  122. At least you guys don’t accuse people of rape, or grand theft, or claim that someone called you a klansman.

    JD (002c72)

  123. Back to the point of the post, damn straight ideology matters.

    Romney today says “he will not walk away” from Romneycare the prototype of our destruction.

    Perry chose his words badly calling some of us “heartless”, he meant something like it, however.

    Both set limits on what battles they will fight.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  124. Yep, just like how he rails about Federal bailouts of banks,

    Perry is opposed to bailouts or excessive spending.

    But if Texans are taxed enormously, why should he refuse to get that money back to Texas?

    He refuses fed money with strings attached… unfunded liabilities that screw Texas after Perry would probably be long done with his career.

    But he doesn’t screw Texans just to make a point. What’s the problem there?

    It’s long been a democrat whine that if conservatives really mean it, they will refuse any benefit of the bloated government they want to restrain. This is extremely unfair and frankly just plain stupid.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  125. At least you guys don’t accuse people of rape, or grand theft, or claim that someone called you a klansman.

    Comment by JD — 11/17/2011 @ 5:15 pm

    heh

    Dustin (cb3719)

  126. Perry chose his words badly calling some of us “heartless”, he meant something like it, however.

    Yep. That’s a clear sign that Perry has some kind of compassionate conservative principle. It’s one bad call. He’s wrong there. That’s why I say he’s 90% in line with my thinking when I support him.

    Of course, if we don’t unify behind Newt, Cain, or Perry, we’re going to wind up with Romney, whose record includes signing into law free healthcare for illegals. It’s absurd.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  127. BTW, emails sent to and from state property and the server were themselves state property.

    Yeah, you can buy the ‘puter but the harddrives stay.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  128. I would not call Romney an capitalist[That is a marxist word] I’d say he benefits from a free market the same one he wants to do away with.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  129. If I were in your shoes, I’d apologize for that crap and try to keep the arguments adult. I think you’re capable of it. Haiku, … probably not, but hey, he’s free to prove me wrong any time.

    Comment by Dustin

    You are proven wrong on a consistent basis. That you don’t recognize or acknowledge it, says a lot about the sort of man you are. My $.02.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  130. I have a mancrush on Romney on an consistent basis. That you don’t recognize it as a legit crush is proof of your homophobia.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  131. FIFY.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  132. Dustino, quando si parla di Rick Perry si parla in lingue. Ti dico bugie dimostrabili. Quando si è chiamati sul tappeto, dire la verità … si può parlare come un uomo!

    Don Carleone (09a0f9)

  133. You are proven wrong on a consistent basis. That you don’t recognize or acknowledge it, says a lot about the sort of man you are. My $.02.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 11/17/2011 @ 5:38 pm

    Actually, when you’ve said I’m dishonest, I have repeatedly tried, in good faith, to learn what you mean. You say ‘I’ll tell you tomorrow’ while staying in the thread for several hours. Then you admit my point was completely right and say you just don’t agree with my opinion.

    Or you’ll just say I said the opposite of what I did (as you did in this thread).

    Show me where I’m wrong? I think one time, you actually did show me to be wrong about something, only, I had admitted my mistake just before you pointed it out.

    You might like to think I’m this evil sinister dishonest … apparently gay monster, but no. I reject Romney for factual reasons and good faith opinions I have about government.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  134. doh Biden, quando l’ultimo in galera, tu eri la moglie di diversi detenuti. L’esperienza si è modificato, e non per il meglio. Quando si parla, parla in modo chiaro … come un uomo!

    Don Carleone (09a0f9)

  135. Anyway, your $.02 was that you want me to burn in hell, Haiku, right?

    That’s up upset it’s made you that I have the view of Romney I have.

    Why get that upset? What could someone possibly say to drive you that crazy? It’s not like I’m hurting anyone. I just argue my opinions. Hell, I even defend Romney sometimes.

    But yeah, I know what your two cents are.

    Too bad Romney’s administration destroyed public records, ‘eh?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  136. JD

    Did Cain grope any women today?

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  137. They did say Herman was a “hands on” CEO

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  138. Fakey Fake Cain, ran away from the Press

    Presidential indeed!

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  139. Fakey fakey eric, is just a poser.

    Dumbarse indeed.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  140. Did you grope Lyta Green Eric?

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  141. They say Eric was a ”hands on” guy.

    But they really do not know it is literal.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  142. Eric, you had a really good point with that interview, so why go to this point you’re at?

    This groping and fake thing… why bother?

    I totally get it. I’m ticked at a couple of commenters here. It’s tempting to just be a complete bastard about it and bash Romney with the harshest stuff I can imagine.

    But that’s not helpful. It won’t persuade anyone.

    If you want to rag on Cain, keep it reasonable. Not trying to pile on you here, but come on. Icy had a completely legit point. JD’s got a completely legit point.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  143. Eric is just pissed because Rick Perry didn;’t grope him.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  144. Dustin – if he cannot make up smears, he has nothing.

    JD (002c72)

  145. JD

    Just imitating you today

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  146. Dustin

    Was just being Doh, I guess its not too funny now isnt it?

    But Cain didnt rape anyone today did he?

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  147. didn’t*

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  148. Imitating me? Liar. I would never do what you do on a daily basis. You disgust me.

    JD (318f81)

  149. I don’t buy all the axelturf fronted by Bialek and
    Zuckerman, Krashaar and company, that said, why are all of the candidates, barely on the field,

    narciso (ef1619)

  150. Dustin, you try to have serious thoughtful discussions here with people who are not

    I get alittle fed up and when I demonstrate their tactics others become somewhat unglued

    Like Cain mentioning lynching – he almost went there again today when asked about Cuban’s policies – you could see him stop himself

    I’m tired of being called a klansmen by people who are in elections to enrich themselves

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  151. He does understand instinctive what is wrong with ‘wet foot, dry foot’ just like returning someone over the wall was wrong, specially for him to be raised by the state, as a good Young Pioneer,

    narciso (ef1619)

  152. Sorry, I realize that was neither serious nor thoughtful, Eric.

    🙂

    Anyway, we’ve got a long way to go here.

    It’s tiresome sometimes.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  153. Well if the Sheet fits, mon frere,

    narciso (ef1619)

  154. I’m tired of being called a klansmen by people who are in elections to enrich themselves

    That is a lie. And you are a liar.

    JD (318f81)

  155. Eric, I don’t know what’s so bad about someone making money as a pundit.

    If you’re right… if Cain is just running to increase his profile, promote his book, perhaps establish himself for a future election, is that really bad?

    A LOT of politicians do that. In fact, most of these candidates do not expect to be nominated, and are raising their profile while trying to promote some of their causes.

    I really wish Bolton had run. Not because he had a hope of winning (hell, maybe this year he would), but just to keep some important matters relevant and increase the necessary competence on foreign policy to hang with Bolton.

    Ron Paul does this. I don’t agree with Paul, but it’s democracy. It’s OK with me that people want to show they support his views, even though he’s not electable.

    If Cain is doing that, what’s so bad?

    Also, he is in serious contention. It’s surprising to me, but it’s a fact. There’s a reason for that. People are very frustrated with both parties, and like Cain’s unapologetic take. They cut him a lot of slack and it’s because they haven’t found what this country needs from the other candidates.

    It’s not Cain’s fault that the other candidates are not closing the deal. I wish Perry had done so, but it’s not Cain’s fault he hasn’t.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  156. Where have I forcefully accused your mancrush of rape?

    And I believe I didn’t.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  157. And I oppose abortion which is why I think after a certain amount of kids you should get your tubes cut.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  158. Then Dustin and a few other posters then indicated they saw absolutely nothing unethical in a politician accepting gifts and substantial gratuities in exchange for access and favored treatment.

    What the #$#%^ are you talking about? Who said anything of the kind?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  159. You said you saw nothing wrong with the way Perry conducts business, Dustin. I’ve just described the way he conducts business… he sells access and influence to the highest bidder.

    What is that allegation based on?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  160. accepting close to $2M in travel gifts from those who secured access to the Governor’s office.

    Transporting someone to where you want him to be is not a gift! If I have a client who wants me to go to Philadelphia he’s damn well going to be paying for my ticket, and if he wants me to stay overnight he’s going to pay for a hotel room — unless he drives me down there himself and puts me up in his spare bedroom. That’s not a gift.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  161. “The federal government is bailing out Texas.”

    Dustin – Yup, you just don’t want to look at those numbers in that Texas Fact Book you are so fond of citing. They are pathetic. I’ve pointed them out before.

    Pig at a trough. Perry loves big federal government because it allows him to boast about keeping a lid on Texas discretionary spending.

    “You have often tried to explain that Texas is really not much different from MA, and it’s just absurd. It only shows a severe bias.”

    No, wrong again. I point out the flaws in your analysis when you try to compare them using similar measures when the structure of the overall funding of the states is different. Why hasn’t this sunk in yet? Can you please stop rewriting what I am saying, it’s a progressive troll trait. If you use bogus state comparisons I have corrected them and explained where you were wrong. You didn’t like it. I showed how Mitt Romney actually decreased spending, just like Rick Perry, using the same measure, according to your own link, blowing away your claim that he was a tax and spend liberal. You can stop rewriting what people say, use facts instead of repeating lies, or continue doing what you are doing.

    Just don’t blame losing your sh*t on other people if they call you on your crap if you continue doing what you’re doing.

    Obama buddy Deval Patrick bringing up Romney record retention issues almost five years after Romney left office is a hit job. Your failure to read the article you linked and see the contradictory statements within it about what was done is your own Greenwaldian failure. Open your good eye and calm down.

    Focus on promoting your own candidate.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  162. C’mon Karl. I pointed out out one small concrete example of how candidate ideology is IMPORTANT.
    Romney was a mormon missionary in France during the Viet Nam war.
    KSA does not allow missionaries to enter its borders.
    Therefore President Mitt would have a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage in fostering Our Saud America Alliance, which is quite IMPORTANT to the PRICE of gasoline.

    any response?

    wheeler's cat (834485)

  163. Morbidly obese chance of that happening.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  164. but…..isnt Romney your candidate?
    his intrade is hovering around 70%.

    wheeler's cat (834485)

  165. The CNN National Security debate is about to start – for real (November 22)

    Sammy Finkelman (2d0c86)

  166. Comment by DohBiden — 11/17/2011 @ 11:06 am

    Sammy if you believe this effete piece of crap will bomb or send the military to iran your mistaken.

    Are you talking about Romney, or Obama?

    Obama doesn’t want to, but he also doesn’t want Iran to explode an bomb in an election year. And with him having chosen a policy of cutting defense, (and trying to blame Republicans for it) it’ll be now or never.

    So, March or April will be bout the time it comes to a head. Of course Obama being Obama he’ll make sure that the British at least are involved so the whole thing is as international as can be.

    Come to think of it,, didn’t Geoorge W. Bush also do that with regard to Iraq?

    Sammy Finkelman (2d0c86)

  167. Does CNN need so much ponderous music?

    And the National anthem too?

    They’ve used up already 5 or 6 minutes.

    Sammy Finkelman (2d0c86)

  168. Now, instructions

    Sammy Finkelman (2d0c86)

  169. Yes and the Spanish, the Italians, the Poles, et al, but since the German, French and Russians who were on the take, weren’t on it it was called
    ‘unilateral.

    narciso (ef1619)

  170. The biggest national security issue of all – the economy??

    Now having the candidates introduce themelves, starting with Santorum.

    Sammy Finkelman (2d0c86)

  171. Just two or three sentences by each. Ron Paul against needless and unnecessary wars.

    Rick Perry has been married for 29 years

    Mitt Romney claims
    “Yes, Wolf that’s also my first name”

    No, it isn’t. What Woldf said was that it was his real name.

    One of the most critical issues we face. Our national security has indeed been downgradd

    Newt Gingrich’s father spent years in the infantry – and in 1958 he decided national secrity was thworth the study of a lifetime

    Michelle Bachman is on the House Committee on Intelligence and members of her family were in the military and Happy Thansksgiving to the military.

    Jon Huntsman believes there is still things to be thankful for. he’s been marriedd 28 years. His wife in the NH box there. Sons in the military

    Now to the questions. Starting with…Ed Meese.

    Sammy Finkelman (2d0c86)

  172. The terror plot in NYC – only the New York City Police department wanted to arrest him!

    Sammy Finkelman (2d0c86)

  173. Cutting Defense…
    Interesting Walter Russell Meade piece yesterday on Obama’s extended Defense committments in the Pacific and how that doesn’t exactly square with cutbacks – I suppose he’s going to show us how to do more with less (Will Jerry Brown be in the 2nd Obama Administration? Oh, wait, Jerry’s specialty is doing nothing with a lot.)

    AD-RtR/OS! (031141)

  174. Pig at a trough. Perry loves big federal government because it allows him to boast about keeping a lid on Texas discretionary spending.

    No.

    Texans pay income tax. It would be stupid to just let the federal government tax us to subsidize the Illinois.

    Thanks for repeating the long debunked democrat talking point, but the bottom line is that Texas is governed better than any other large state.

    You aren’t conservative if you disagree. Your claim that Texas and Massachusetts aren’t that different in performance or governments is dishonest, but I don’t take you seriously because you traffic in nonsense like Perry being gay, and the worst paranoia about Gardasil.

    Calling Texas a pig at the trough is just more of the same from the Romney shill.

    We get it. Scorched Earth.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  175. No, wrong again. I point out the flaws in your analysis

    Actually, no, you’re just crazy, Daleyrocks. I presented a very fair analysis. I compare Texas’s budget to every dollar earned in Texas to MA’s budget to every dollar earned there. It’s apples to apples.

    You came up with an insane comparison that was obviously ad hoc, and ultimately, your analysis pretends MA and TX have government of equivilant size. It’s just silliness at best, but coming from the weirdo who screamed ‘needle of sex’ at ‘gay’ Perry, we know it’s really something nastier.

    I explained the flaws in your analysis. My ‘analysis’ is to repeat what most folks already know. Texas has a leaner more jobs friendly government, that has good results, and MA has a bloated government that is not leading to growth, including when Romney ruined it with Romneycare.

    You didn’t like it. I showed how Mitt Romney actually decreased spending,

    How many times are you going to tell this lie?

    Romneycare has lost $20 billion dollars. It’s a massive money pit. Anyone saying Romney as governor actually cut spending is simply a ridiculous shill. He left MA with a $1.3 billion budget shortfall, which is 100 million more than he ‘inherited’, to use democrat talking points (you seem to be well versed in them).

    Even if you ignore Romneycare, Romney increased spending in many instances, and the only reason it wasn’t a faster disaster was that 2003-2007 were boom years where MA reaped enormous cap gains revenues (this has zero to do with Romney’s leadership). He is a tax and spend liberal. Apparently you are as well.

    Your relentless need to rag on Texas is exposing that policies and ideas mean nothing to you. All that matters to you is partisanship and hero worship. In this case, you’re infatuated with Romney much like Obama’s hacks were to him. No, Romney’s not super brilliant enough to run this government. He’s a technocrat who thinks he should use government to solve problems, which is why MA is being bankrupted (I recall you even disputed that!). No set of facts will change your mind.

    I’m not a Perry supporter. I’m a not-Romney supporter. Perry is not Romney, so I’m happy with him, but I also like all the other GOP candidates other than Paul and Romney. Even Huntsman is manifestly better than Romney.

    The Romney argument is to play sophist with facts, and denigrate commenters they disagree with. It’s not persuasive, but you clearly have no facts.

    Let’s hear you lay out your comparison again, step by step. Or at least link it. It was torn apart in the thread where you presented it, so why just cite it vaguely like the argument’s over? Let people see just what lengths you had to go through to attempt to make Romney’s record approach Perry’s (I recall Perry still came out a couple percentage points ahead on spending despite these lengths!).

    Perry probably is too far behind to win, so by all means attack him and his supporters. As I predicted, Romney and his fans will tear the party apart. It’s not that I like it, but it’s inevitable and at least you’re proving me right again.

    —-

    Also, it’s a good debate. Even Bachmann looks good. Perry is doing very well.

    Romney is off his game, but he’s OK. I’m not sure what his deal is, but I’m biased against him anyway.

    Newt is also doing well of course.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  176. I think the caliber of the questioners, improves the
    debate, and AEI is top notch, with most others, they
    were just political hacks.

    narciso (ef1619)

  177. You didn’t like it. I showed how Mitt Romney actually decreased spending,

    Actually, he increased it three out of four years even if you ignore Romneycare altogether. And he specifically called for increases in spending in several agencies.

    That’s just a fact. He pandered even when his state couldn’t afford its bloated government. He did more than open the door for Ted Kennedy’s healthcare dream… he led the way and collaborated openly and proudly with Ted Kennedy and other hard left liberals.

    He is a liberal.
    There is very little ideological reason to support him. If Obama’s administration wasn’t criminally corrupt, I wouldn’t see any reason to support him at all, given Romney’s liberal judicial appointment record.

    Let’s just hope we nominate Newt or Perry or someone else who aspires to do more than just win the election. As we all saw from Romney’s cowardice since he lost yet another election in 2007, Romney does not lead on policy like so many other contenders have. He hides, waits for the issue to he resolved, and then preaches whatever the polls say.

    That you seem to reserve special venom for Perry is one of the reasons I’ve continued supporting him. For some reason, the ugly ones all hate Perry.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  178. “Texans pay income tax. It would be stupid to just let the federal government tax us to subsidize the Illinois.”

    Americans in every state pay federal income taxes.

    “Thanks for repeating the long debunked democrat talking point”

    Are Democrats talking about the growth in the receipt of federal money by Texas? Do you have a link?

    “the bottom line is that Texas is governed better than any other large state.”

    It may be, but does that mean Perry would make a good President? Comparing Texas to California is not tough.

    “Your claim that Texas and Massachusetts aren’t that different in performance or governments is dishonest.”

    My claim is they are very different and that when you use measures from a Texas Fact Book for comparison, the comparisons are dishonest because of the differences. When I point out the differences you fly off the handle. Not my problem, but I would appreciate it if you stop misrepresenting what I’m saying. I’ve asked multiple times.

    “I don’t take you seriously because you traffic in nonsense like Perry being gay, and the worst paranoia about Gardasil.”

    It’s unfortunate you have a defective sarcasm detector.

    “We get it. Scorched Earth.”

    Yes, I would not roll over for your smears of Romney just as I would not have for a liberal troll appearing on the site. Sorry. I favor truth over fiction.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  179. Americans in every state pay federal income taxes.

    Except for the 47% that pay no Federal Income Tax, no matter where they live.

    AD-RtR/OS! (031141)

  180. Comment by Dustin — 11/22/2011 @ 6:17 pm

    Also, it’s a good debate. Even Bachmann looks good. Perry is doing very well.

    Romney is off his game, but he’s OK. I’m not sure what his deal is, but I’m biased against him anyway.

    Newt is also doing well of course.

    Herman Cain is actually looking very good today. He hasn’t made one mistake. Perry, yes, looks better. Mitt Romney actually looked pretty good in the first hour. I think Newt Gingrich had some problems recalling what he wanted to say. he couldn’t get out what he wanted to say on Pakistan at first. He did manage to say that the policy should be they give the military the authority to go over Pakistan should be told either help or get out of the way. Not bad. Perry policy seems to be abandoning Pakistan to the jihadists.

    No candidate managed to answer the actual question on Mexico.

    Sammy Finkelman (2d0c86)

  181. They see up to date on the proposal for a non-fly zone in Syria, and Tahrir Square but nobody sems to have noticed the power struggle in Iran. Ahmadinijsd may be losing power to the really bad people.

    Sammy Finkelman (2d0c86)

  182. When it’s Freddie vs, Jason (Khamenei v. Ahmadinejad,) there’s no good choice

    narciso (ef1619)

  183. Here’s my vision of a debate between a liberal republican and a liberal democrat.

    Just weakness on the few matters that are so obviously critical to our nation’s future.

    We’re in deep trouble. I’m willing to rally behind someone I don’t love (such as Newt) if that means a chance of solving these problems. I know that with Romney, there is no chance. Even though Romney sounds great (such as on illegal immigration) we all know, by his deeds, he’s lying (such as on illegal immigration).

    Sadly, if we rag on Romney so much, that hampers his electability if he’s nominated. That’s a risk I’m willing to take if we can unify around the best not Romney (who is not Perry at this point).

    It really is critical that we have someone who has a record of reform minded results in office. That’s the opposite of Romney’s ‘the democrats beat the crap out of widdle me’ record.

    That’s why I’m not taking Cain seriously (though I certainly would vote for him if he were the leading not Romney when I do vote).

    Dustin (cb3719)

  184. Sorry I favor truth over fiction.

    What are you smoking?

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  185. “LOL, Romney sure cut spending.”

    Dustin – Nice link. LOL. Your scorched earth won’t fly.

    “The level of economic illiteracy required to believe that a one-sized-fits-all, individually-mandated, government-controlled health care system could somehow succeed is really quite stunning. Which says a lot about Mitt Romney’s belief in free enterprise and the market system.”

    The only problem with the above is that Romney did not leave them with a one size fits all program. Sorry, that was Deval Patrick and the legislature.

    But under the current theory of Romney haters he is responsible for all actions taken after his departure from office which increase the cost of health care reform in Massachusetts.

    So say Obamabots and Perrybots.

    http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/09/Massachusetts-Health-Care-Reform-Has-Left-Small-Business-Behind-A-Warning-to-the-States?query=Massachusetts+Health+Care+Reform+Has+Left+Small+Business+Behind:+A+Warning+to+the+States

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  186. Ahmadinijsd [sic] may be losing power to the really bad people.

    — He’s one of the good guys, is he?

    Icy (61f618)

  187. “LOL, Romney sure cut spending.”

    Dustin – Don’t think I ever claimed that except by the measure you use for Perry, discounted for inflation on a per capita basis over the term of his governorship.

    LOL urself.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  188. Sorry I favor truth over fiction.

    What are you smoking?

    Comment by DohBiden —

    Some folks are insecure. They present many lies about conservatives, and when it’s shown just how wrong they are, they insist they are always on the high horse.

    Just vague generalities of how they are the champion of truth.

    Such folks usually pretend to be objective, too.

    Some of the stuff I’ve seen on this blog about Perry is Andrew Sullivan level ugly, demented, and knowingly false. That’s why I refuse to pretend this crap is OK. It’s not.

    Every stupid meme about Perry has been peddled by the same few brainless shills for the RINO, and I know they think this is some kind of service to the established party, but I think it makes the party a lot weaker in the long term. What is the point of a GOP that actually can’t distinguish the great success of Texas from the great failure of MA? There’s no point at all there. Maybe it’s good sophist fun to invent some bizarre analysis that shows MA and TX to be the same, but the truth is that the nation needs to follow Texas’s model. The GOP needs to agree that limited government works, and intrusions like Romneycare always fail.

    Leaders who thought Romneycare would save money are incompetent, even if they went to the most elite school and have good connections.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  189. honestly if you believe that then i have a bridge to sell y’all.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  190. “Americans in every state pay federal income taxes.

    Except for the 47% that pay no Federal Income Tax, no matter where they live.”

    AD – Correct. The point I made earlier which Dustin did not address was that I see a Texas governor ramping up use of federal monies to his state which allows him to keep a lid on discretionary spending. That governor likes big government. How credible is that governor in walking the talk about cutting big government if he gets to Washington?

    I point it out, you decide.

    I point it out, Dustin goes batsh*t.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  191. Stipulated, but what did Romney think was going to happen in the Courts, and if a Democrat got in. Did
    he think they were going to improve the system or make it worse,

    narciso (ef1619)

  192. “Every stupid meme about Perry has been peddled by the same few brainless shills for the RINO”

    Dustin – Perry has not been vetted nationally. We were told how great he was by the Texans on this blog, some as they ripping apart other republican candidates with lies and innuendo that meant as serious commentary that were Andrew Sullivan level ugly as opposed to ugly sarcastic comments that could have been detected by a middle school age student as non-serious comments.

    Further research shows Perry is not popular in his own state, he displays his record misleadingly on his website, his rabid supporters are willing to say anything and trash anyone to advance his cause and he fell on his face through no fault but his own.

    I suggest you stop blaming others for whatever issues you are suffering through and try to focus on something positive.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  193. I’ve never said that Perry is great; but, then again, I am no longer a Texan. 🙁

    Icy (61f618)

  194. “Stipulated, but what did Romney think was going to happen in the Courts, and if a Democrat got in. Did
    he think they were going to improve the system or make it worse,”

    narciso – I think the question is how much worse, but to you blame Romney for it? Remember, Massachusetts already had 92% insured coverage and I believe they had guaranteed issue before the reform. If people were allowed to buy high deductible cat coverage to satisfy the law, which was the intent, how much worse was it going to get? Instead, the governor and the legislature dithered and them imposed a one size fits all gold plated solution chock full of coverage mandates which cranked up the costs.

    Some people say you blame Romney for that. I say that’s BS, that’s on the Dems. Read the Heritage piece.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  195. Some of the stuff I’ve seen on this blog

    To clarify, this definitely isn’t a comment about the posts, which are excellent. Even when they aren’t perfect, the poster generally is willing to have an honest discussion about it.

    Karl’s coverage has been very appreciated.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  196. Rick Perry stole a babys lollipop and threw the mother out in traffic…….Why aren’t you listening to meh?

    /Daleyrocks

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  197. Well however it’s worked out, insurance premiums have tripled, from what my contacts in Massachussetts have told me, and seeing as Baker
    didn’t even try to challenge the mandate, how is that sustainable.

    narciso (ef1619)

  198. Perry is slowly gaining in the polls, romney is slowly slipping in the polls, gingrich has this only time to be the front runner – Iowa conservatives and evangelicals have just come out and condemned Cain as well as the leading and very influential paper in NH.

    The race is still very undecided and people are looking at Santorum – who is a good candidate – younger than the populace would go for in my opinion but who knows

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  199. I’ve never said that Perry is great; but, then again, I am no longer a Texan. 🙁

    Comment by Icy — 11/22/2011 @ 7:29 pm

    I have been criticizing Perry for a very long time. If you were to search, I’m sure you’ll find negative comments from me about Perry when he ran for his recent reelection.

    Everything is relative.

    Perry has done a good job, with relatively low drama. His bad calls have been few and he’s actually been willing to admit defeat when he’s wrong (sometimes).

    Texas was fortunate. I thought if Bill White, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, or Rick Perry were our governor, Texas would still have one of the best governors and governments in the country. We’re fortunate.

    For President, I liked Daniels a lot, and expressed my rationale that I need someone who was reelected governor (a successful governor, in other words), someone who is willing to take flack for what’s right, and someone who’s record is conservative.

    I laid my reasoning out probably a year before I even knew Perry was going to run, and when he did, it was obvious he was the only one who even comes close to what I was looking for.

    But the man is not without some problems. I’ll hope he turns it around. His debate tonight was good (not great), but his other campaign aspects have been very strong. The man is on Ignore from the MSM until he goofs, at which point he’s mocked. And that’s just the way politics works… I’m not even complaining about it.

    It may just be that it’s not possible for someone that conservative to get past the gauntlet without tremendous, tremendous personability that Perry just doesn’t have.

    Anyway, I know few who pretend Perry is perfect. I just think we’re past a point where we can wait for the next election cycle. We need a conservative, and we need a hard fight against Romney style pandering on Social Security (even though that fight will be led by democrats). It’s just not something I can easily compromise. Spending is just far, far too high.

    When spending was slightly too high in Texas, Perry actually did lead the charge to fix that. When spending was far, far too high in MA, Romney increased it tremendously with Romneycare. That’s all the difference in the world, and those who pretend this is ‘fiction’ are not doing the movement any favors.

    If it’s the case the the GOP actually stands AGAINST these reforms (And I believe much of it does), then we have a hard road ahead.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  200. I know how the likes of Clayton Williams, made people take a gamble on Ann Richards, which seemed
    to me the wrong question, which was restored in part with W,

    narciso (ef1619)

  201. Iowa conservatives and evangelicals have just come out and condemned Cain as well as the leading and very influential paper in NH.

    — Well, lookie there! Maybe all of your outright lies about him have had an effect after all.

    Icy (61f618)

  202. You have the right to criticize Perry.

    In fact I agree with you but even if I didn’t you still have the right to think that.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  203. I don’t understand why anyone would have a strongly negative opinion of Cain any more than I understand why anyone would strongly think he should be president.

    I just don’t have that program, I guess.

    He seems like a genuine guy. Not a creepy pervert or whatever the hell, and also not really prepared for the presidency. I want to say his supporters are just protesting how crappy the field is, but it seems like some REALLY think he is ready to be an excellent president, and I’m not sure where that comes from. Also, some seem to think he’s actually a villain, and there’s no good reason to think that.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  204. Of course, back here in reality land, Newt is barely edging out Cain, and the New Hampshire newspaper did not “condemn” Herman Cain, although it did kinda diss him.

    Back on your head, and back to the meme!

    Icy (61f618)

  205. Iowa conservatives and evangelicals.

    Um Who cares what these fakers think.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  206. Yes the GOP must have a canditate who will cut off the necrotic limb AKA public sector unions.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  207. Icy

    we already had a groper in chief right? I mean its okay that he lied – that nothing happened – that these women just got standard severence pay/ that he just made a joke? hat one woke up in his apartment?

    you know he’s not denying it right?

    i sure hope what I and others are saying has had an effect – it needs to be – that and he’s a total fake

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  208. we already had a groper in chief right?

    I seem to recall the deficit was much lower at the time.

    Though I give Newt more credit than I give slick willie, Newt is not exactly lily white on personal matters either (yeah, I know, he’s not as bad as they said).

    If we decide this presidency on who is least likely to grope, I have to wonder if we’re missing the most important matters.

    Reject Cain for his foreign policy blunders or his tax plan. Let’s not let the left set this election up as based on who has the fewest scandals. Because it doesn’t matter what the truth is: the public will be told the Republican has most of the scandals.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  209. Is it any surprise that if you line up the candidates from right to left, the MSM based accusations of scandals approximately flow in that direction?

    And the proven scandals approximately flow in the exact opposite direction?

    Makes you go hmm.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  210. And the ones they can’t find, they will make up,
    there in lies the lesson, of the last 3 years.

    narciso (ef1619)

  211. Eric will tell us next Herman Cain wants to do away with Child Labor Laws next.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  212. The ows need to get jobs it doesn’t matter where they get the jobs.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  213. Doh

    Herman’s running for the speaker fees – he’s not the only one – remember – its the Snookie election – putting up showmen who have never won an election as some capable of running the most important country in the world in one of the most perilous times – sure – be a Cain supporter but dont ever expect anyone to ever take you seriously again as an America or as a human being

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  214. Ahhhhhhhhhh yes I’m not a human being.

    ESAD,

    How long before opponents of communist are called racists.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  215. ESAD.*

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  216. I’m not sure what’s wrong with running even though you don’t anticipate winning.

    It’s a free country. Some said that’s why Newt was running when conventional wisdom was he was hopeless.

    I wanted Bolton to run for that reason.

    That’s why Ron Paul is running.

    They do get to sell their ideas, forcing other candidates to compete with them. Yeah, they also boost their profile, and that can lead to sources of income, but that’s part of this being a free country.

    I get the annoyance factor… it seems that the not Romneys are split, and the establishment guys all endorsed one establishment guy. That’s no good, but I don’t think it would be a problem if any of the not-Romneys truly had the whole package.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  217. dustin – I consider it treason to run while not ever intending to win or even try to win – just to enrich yourself – its wrong on all levels

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  218. doh

    nope just a problem causing dissenter right?

    Explain why you called Bachmann the c word, made horrible statements to everyone and can you disclose the conservative blogs that you’ve been banned from?

    Also i believe you even called DRJ some words as well?

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  219. Now even though I’m sick and tired of jews being called stingy with their money I believe you have the right to say that if you wish.

    I’m no longer offended.

    Sorry for the O/T.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  220. By the way if you said lefty jews are stingy with their money you’d be correct.

    Sorry for another O/T

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  221. dustin – I consider it treason to run while not ever intending to win or even try to win – just to enrich yourself – its wrong on all levels

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 11/22/2011 @ 9:24 pm

    Well, I guess we just see it differently.

    Anyway, what if they are running to promote a certain point of view, but aren’t going to avoid enriching themselves? Is that treason to you?

    I don’t mind that.

    And while Cain doesn’t appear to be willing to go 100% for the win… maybe that’s actually a sign of sanity?

    Anyway, we do live in serious times, and I don’t think Cain is ready, nor do I appreciate someone thinking their first elected office should be the most powerful one in the world… they probably have one hell of an ego.

    I just think it’s more persuasive to take Cain on for his policies and readiness to handle emergencies that will crop up. His supporters don’t think he’s fake, after all.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  222. You consider letting the toilet overflow.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  223. You consider letting the toilet overflow to be treason.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  224. So did you find out if Israel was a nazi state or not Eric?

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  225. dustin

    I agree with that premise but Cain’s lying, Cain’s book tour, Cain’s playing the race card

    doh

    please explain why you called DRJ the C word and Michelle the same – why you wanted Happyfeets rect@m torn in half?

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  226. Cain’s playing the race card.

    Like you against Palin.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  227. Icy, we already had a groper in chief right?
    — Aww, our little Eric is talking to me again. Isn’t that special?

    Herman’s running for the speaker fees – he’s not the only one – remember – its the Snookie election – putting up showmen who have never won an election as some capable of running the most important country in the world in one of the most perilous times
    — Okay, so I’m guessing that by “showmen” you are referring to Herman Cain and . . . who? his shadow? Last time I checked, he was the only candidate that has never held elected office. It’s okay, though. Perhaps after counting 2 million Jews it becomes difficult to only count “one”. As for the string of cliches with which you ended that paragraph, come on, dude; even YOU can do better than that! Are we “the most important country in the world”? Maybe, but the president — as important as his position is, doesn’t “run” it (then again, Obama is kinda running it into a ditch). And “most perilous of times”? Someone always says that.

    be a Cain supporter but dont ever expect anyone to ever take you seriously again as an America or as a human being
    — Can you feel the love, Perry campers?!

    Icy (f2e91e)

  228. I consider it treason to run while not ever intending to win or even try to win – just to enrich yourself – its wrong on all levels
    — And the last person to succeed in enriching themselves with this strategy was whom? (Very strong hint: do NOT say “Palin” unless you are truly ready for the rebuttal)
    Perhaps you and Sammy Finkelman can teach a seminar to enlighten the rest of us about the intentions of others. Larry O’Donnell can be your guest lecturer.

    Cain’s playing the race card
    — So I ask you once again: is it “playing the race card” when you have ACTUALLY been discriminated against on the basis of race?

    Icy (f2e91e)

  229. Look who got away practically scot free in this, with only a slap on the wrist, it’s up there with
    the Kimberlim business.

    http://www.adn.com/2011/11/21/2183225/allen-unlikely-to-face-any-child.html

    narciso (ef1619)

  230. Doh

    Why did you call DRJ and Michelle the C word and why did you want something bad to happen to Happyfeet

    Icy

    Cain keeps on playin that race card – he now is involking the voters rights amendment (code word for race card) in religiouss ebates

    So icy, what was Cain a married baptist preacher doing inviting young women out for drinks and a night at his corporate apartment?

    did anyone ask him that question?

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  231. You really are beyond parody, you know that, Doh is at least playing it for laughs, what’s your excuse/

    narciso (ef1619)

  232. narcisco

    no he isnt – if you believe that then you are just as culpable as him

    Tell me what’s funny about calling DRJ the C word?

    Yah why dont you explain that

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  233. This is supposed to be the centre right party, correct;

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/283823/eurocracy-run-amuck-samuel-gregg

    narciso (ef1619)

  234. “Well however it’s worked out, insurance premiums have tripled, from what my contacts in Massachussetts have told me, and seeing as Baker
    didn’t even try to challenge the mandate, how is that sustainable.”

    narciso – I’d like to see a cite for premiums tripling. If you’ve got something tripling, my guess is it’s not an apples to apples coverage comparison because of what I described above. Massachusetts had about the highest premiums in the country prior to RomneyCare.

    Who do you blame?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  235. Persons affiliated with the TP, that worked for Scott Brown’s campaign, and are quite dissapointed
    with the result.

    narciso (ef1619)

  236. that’s who informed me, what is the lemming like suicidal instinct, only matched by California, Patrick is Obama 1.0, which is what worries me.

    narciso (ef1619)

  237. “what is the lemming like suicidal instinct, only matched by California, Patrick is Obama 1.0, which is what worries me.”

    narciso – The suicidal instinct is a belief they won’t run out of OPM IMHO so it affect largely other people.

    I think a lot of people aren’t happy with the premium increases the way the implementation was handled and for some no doubt premiums tripled. It’s tough to for me to imagine a tripling as a straight up apples to apples coverage comparison, though.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  238. Cain keeps on playin that race card – he now is involking the voters rights amendment (code word for race card) in religiouss ebates
    — Citation please? Not that I don’t trust you, given your impeccable history of never exaggerating (or just outright making crap up) in order to advance your agenda, but WHAT “voter’s rights amendment” would he be referring to? And while you’re at it, please answer my other question: Do you think Herman Cain has been subjected to unfair treatment on the basis of his race; Yes or No?

    Icy (f2e91e)

  239. Romney was a loud and convincingly sincere champion of Amnesty.

    Now that it’s convenient to bash others for much more conservative views on illegal immigration, Romney has a convincingly sincere opposition to that very thing.

    It’s not convincing to those of us (about 70% of the party) who pay attention.

    This is why I reject the guy. There is literally nothing Romney can say that will work for me, because I know he flip flops to the most absurd degree.

    I could understand Romney being sympathetic to illegals, knowingly sending them work, giving them free health care, and begging for amnesty for illegals. That all would at least be a sincere man I understood (but disagreed with).

    Instead, Romney rejects his own principles in order to pretend to be the champion of the right on these issues. And as many, such as Perry, have noted, he couldn’t have less credibility for that stance.

    Who is smarter? The guy who takes a well rehearsed pose, or the guy who gets it right the first time, steadfastly arguing for the same thing every time, but without the prime time pose? The answer is ‘I don’t care’.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  240. Who do you blame?

    Comment by daleyrocks —

    The guy who spearheaded Romneycare.

    All the problems it caused are UTTERLY predictable.

    Why open the door to a bankrupting entitlement in MA if you’re a conservative? You don’t. You don’t try to split the baby with the hard left.

    Romney is liberal. He’s liberal on basically every single issue. He’s frankly stupid for trying to fool us that he’s not with these relentlessly dumb flip flops.

    Romney personally PRAISED Romneycare for needing a Federal Bailout, thanks to Ted Kennedy’s collaboration, the day he signed it into law.

    He wants a bigger government, more intrusive to solve problems and grant power to the political class, including his family of politicians.

    Why in the hell do we even need to make excuses for him, when we have several great leaders running. Cain and Santorum are better leaders. Newt and Perry are MUCH better leaders.

    Kman (cb3719)

  241. “:Comment by Kman — 11/23/2011 @ 9:57 am” ws me.

    Sockpuppet fail. Sorry.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  242. dustin

    lol for a moment i wondered how kman got through the filters without my help. now i know the answer. 🙂

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  243. Comment by Icy — 11/22/2011 @ 7:11 pm

    Ahmadinijsd [sic] may be losing power to the really bad people.

    – He’s one of the good guys, is he?

    No, he isn’t. But the people trying to force him out seem to be the people most involved with terrorism, attacks on American soldiers, and the nuclear program. Although Ahmadinejad himself was close to them, he is now getting on the outs with them.

    It might be they are afraid he might not like some of their military plans – I mean he may not want to want to respond to sanctions by closing the Straits of Hormuz, or attack Bahrain or some other ideas that they may have. And maybe he’s not so ready to go along with the actual use of a nuclear bomb, as opposed to its development. Or
    maybe he wants to go public with the nuclear programs while they want to keep it secret. Or
    they may just simply not trust him.

    It’s the rally really bad, or possibly reckless, people who are pushing him out. He’s losing control. He was forced to un-fire his intelligence chief. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei now talks about simply not having a president when
    Ahmadinejad’s term expires in 2013.

    None of this is good news

    Sammy Finkelman (2d0c86)

  244. I gotta keep you on your toes, Aaron.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  245. “:Comment by Kman — 11/23/2011 @ 9:57 am” ws me.”

    Dustin – Nice Hiltzik immitation.

    There is literally nothing Romney can say that will work for me” – No need to restate the obvious. Your scorched earth (your words) campaign against him has been clear.

    “Romney personally PRAISED Romneycare for needing a Federal Bailout, thanks to Ted Kennedy’s collaboration, the day he signed it into law.”

    Did he use the word bailout or did he talk about working with Washington? Since most states, even Texas, get huge health care reimbursements from Washington, are you clear on your reference here? Probably not.

    “Why open the door to a bankrupting entitlement in MA if you’re a conservative? You don’t. You don’t try to split the baby with the hard left.”

    Exactly, as a conservative you do nothing because you know any solutions you offer will be corrupted by the left. If you are a conservative you abandon blue states to their own demise.

    WINNING!!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  246. “Newt and Perry are MUCH better leaders.”

    Why not spend your time convincing people of that?

    Instead of spending all your time bashing other candidates, why not promote your own?

    Is there really that little to say?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)


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