What Islamofascism Is All About: The Video of Nick Berg
The video of Nick Berg being beheaded is available here. (If that link doesn’t work, go here or here.) [UPDATE: I have heard that the previous links are having problems, so I have temporarily put the video on my server, here.] Be warned: if you don’t want to watch something graphic, gruesome, and incredibly disturbing, don’t watch it. But there is no better reminder of what we are fighting against.
P.S. I know I’ll be criticized by some for linking to this. Some will say (with good reason) that publicizing the video will be disturbing to the family. This is no doubt true, but that damage is already done. (This would be a much tougher call if the video were not already widely available.) Some will say that publicizing the video is what the terrorists want. It’s a tough call, but I think that — like the images of the planes slamming into the Twin Towers on 9/11 — disturbing images like this need to be available, so that we understand what we’re up against.
If you don’t want to see the images, don’t click on the link. But it’s my belief that this video will steel the resolve of Americans who have had that resolve tested in recent days. If the terrorists think that Americans are going to be cowed by images like this, the terrorists don’t understand Americans.
P.P.S. ZombyBoy has some thoughts on the topic that are worth reading.
P.P.P.S. Joshua Sharf at “Oh, That Liberal Media” points out a relevant fact that the media isn’t emphasizing: Berg was Jewish.
P.P.P.P.S. I hope that you found the content of this post thought-provoking — even if you simply came here looking for the video. If you agree with what you have read here (or even if you don’t!), please consider bookmarking the site and returning. As you can see, blogs are an important source of information that the media doesn’t want to provide to you. That phenomenon didn’t begin with the Nick Berg video, and it won’t end with it.
You might also consider making a donation to Spirit of America, an organization trying to do positive things in Iraq (details in the left margin on the main page).
UPDATE: You may remember Ted Rall as the guy who mocked Marianne Pearl after her husband Daniel Pearl was beheaded. As I predicted in this post, Rall has offered a typically boneheaded opinion on the Berg beheading. Details can be found here — including e-mail addresses you can use to express your disgust for Rall’s special brand of anti-American hatred.
I’m all for showing what these animals did to this poor American. We have lost the outrage from the 9/11 images - the networks have decided we’ve seen them too much and might bear some ill will to Islamofascists, heaven forbid… We weren’t shown the Pearl Video unedited, nor the real butchery in Fallujah of the 4 contractors. It’s time to get pissed off, and put in perspective the “get Rummy, get Bush” whining and handwringing
Comment by Frank G — 5/11/2004 @ 4:49 pm
Displaying the video is exactly what the terrorists want. They have no idea how foolish an idea it was.
Consider this. The Iraqi prison abuse story is not the lead tonight and the whole country is reminded how we felt on 9/11. We are now regalvanized in our wanting to win the war on terror.
The terrorists expect us to be scared. Instead we as a nation get pissed.
And to paraphrase Bruce Banner, They won’t like us when we get pissed.
P
Comment by Paul — 5/11/2004 @ 6:08 pm
Know your enemies.
A very loose paraphrase of a jaw-dropping exchange between Oliver North and Alan Colmes: North: “These masked terrorists took a long knife and sawed the head off of this young American civilian contractor, then held his severed head aloft in…
Trackback by protein wisdom — 5/11/2004 @ 6:38 pm
And I learned today that decapitation is not a quick and painless death. What a horrible thing war is.
Comment by Justene — 5/11/2004 @ 7:26 pm
…christ, I knew people were going to get killed because of those idiot jailers.
Time switch back from carrot to stick, IYAM.
Comment by The Sanity Inspector — 5/11/2004 @ 8:41 pm
I doubt idiot jailers had alot to do with this decision. It’s a commen method used by these folks. Remember Richard Perl? No?
Then check out the other two mov’s besides todays.
http://home.comcast.net/~incubus52/lestweforget.html
Bush maybe wrong for the country but we are still at war.
Comment by IXLNXS — 5/11/2004 @ 10:40 pm
I wonder how the media would feel if we captured the 5 hooded murderers of Mr. Berg, threw them in prison, and forced them to wear women’s panties?
Would the media still call that “prisoner abuse”?
Comment by Redman — 5/12/2004 @ 12:35 pm
I would. I’d probably call it “justified prisoner abuse,” but prisoner abuse nonetheless.
Comment by Xrlq — 5/12/2004 @ 3:44 pm
Making them wear panties?
How sad. Truly sad.
While the world has fresh reason to view the Islamic militants more harshly many are seeking to lesson the damage done by the revelation of torture in Iraq.
By bringing it up they only remind of it. If they ignored it, new news would come along to replace it. Instead they seek to point out how much worse the one is than the other. By doing so they just continue to display their own failure.
Comment by IXLNXS — 5/12/2004 @ 8:01 pm
the “idiot jailers” have little to do with Islamic fanaticism, this was merely an excuse for more butchery. These are souless, murderers who cannot be supressed except for death. We can leave Iraq, but they’ll continue murdering innocents outside of their borders until the world bows to their Allah. We are heading into a dangerous new age.
Comment by shelby — 5/12/2004 @ 9:15 pm
May 13, 2004 AD
For the life of me I cannot find the actual video stream of the beheading.
All links refer to some mysterious Muslim web-site, but I’ll be damned if I can I find it.
Any suggestions?
Please feel free to send email with any actual links of streaming video.
j zack
Comment by joseph zack — 5/13/2004 @ 7:26 am
Joseph,
See my update above. I have posted a link to the video from my own server. You should be able to download it now.
Comment by Patterico — 5/13/2004 @ 7:41 am
Working link for the Berg Video.
http://patterico.com/archives/002236.php Working link for the Berg video….
Trackback by Liberal Topia — 5/13/2004 @ 8:12 am
The questions are endless. As they have been for many years when it comes the so called war against terror.
But it is amazing that terror strikes Americans so often when it is needed the most from right wing forces in the country. Instead of doing a hard job to develop new forms of sustainable energy ( as so many other countries does) they prefer to force a short cut to all major reserves of oil.
The pipeline from Kazakhstan was just up and going when terror stroke on World Trade Center. A perfect opportunity to launch an attack against Afghanistan and get access from Russia to use bases in Kazakhstan. Of course, the worst possible that could happen for the right wing forces is if the war is won easily so they have to pull out again. So they will never find Osama Bin Laden.
Next step was an attack against Iraq with some of the worlds largest oil reserves. This time the excuse was that he had “weapon of mass destructions”. Even if this had been true, he would have pose the same thread to USA as a mouse to an elephant. Saddam Hussein is indeed a psychopath, but so was the leaders of South Africa, which prevented black people access to areas restricted for white people. If there has ever been a justified and moral reason to launch an attack it would have been against South Africa. But of course, that never happened. There is no large oil reserves in the area.
The development in Iraq was no surprise for the right wing forces in USA. The knew perfectly well that a controlled US- friendly government in Iraq would be a difficult thing to establish. But for them there is no option but to waste young American kids until they have reached this target. This is about control of 25 % of all oil reserves on this planet. This is about USA rights to follow a dying, unbalanced and ecological destructive energy program, based alone on oil.
Perhaps the pictures from the prison in Baghdad was a surprise for the right wing forces. But they quickly came up with a splendid plan. Lets find some naive guy we can waste. So the media storm calms down. Everybody with the slightest understanding on how right wing forces in USA think and act could have predicted this cruel act.
The poor guy was Nick Berg. And although I hope that those people on the video tape performing this cruel act will be hunted down and shot without mercy there is only one way to avoid such episodes in the future. And that is to find those right wing forces in USA which participated in the planning of the terror against World Trade Center. Then finally Americans can wake up to the bright future they deserve.
From a person who cares for Americans.
Comment by Retinablack — 5/13/2004 @ 8:59 am
I have wathched the video and am very shaken. I really wonted to see the video. Because I wonted to see the reality of the people. We are tring to help. The people in prison how had to be humiliated. Is nothing to this. I really think the people how have done this are animals and that is saying it nicely. What I really would like to say. I do not even think people would like to here. Because they would not like what I would recommend for the punishment. They would get to know a greater pain that they would get to experience more than once.
Comment by "Mad" — 5/13/2004 @ 9:42 am
When I heard about this whole episode, I was infuriated. I watched the video and I feel bad for this kid. It was a terrible death. Simply dreadful!
He was an adult. He went to a war-torn country in chaos. Not like a Vietnam – of guns and landmines. He went to a country where terrorists drive car bombs and sent 757s into skyscrapers. These terrorists are extremists in the light of the word.
The media is shedding light on this kid - first he went over on his own accord. He was unescorted. He was unarmed. The US consulate services tried to persuade him to leave the country; He refused. The US detained him and tried to persuade him to leave, still he refused. The FBI investigated him and spoke with his family. It’s understandable, he went over in good faith to help people - but he went to a country where Americans are hated. He went defenseless. He went where he should not have gone. He went to be a hero, where no heroes are going to be heard. Unfortunately, his immaturity, sense of adventure, or goodwill – left him in a place of great harm. Regrettably, he had to pay for his misfortunes through extreme measures of his life. Common on though – a rational person wouldn’t go sauntering into a war-torn country, where the soldiers don’t even want to be. A place of danger! Common on!
Comment by liberal_girl — 5/13/2004 @ 11:15 am
Your point? How does any of this excuse what happened to him?
Comment by Patterico — 5/13/2004 @ 11:20 am
I can’t even get the video from your server. any suggestions?
Comment by miksarsha — 5/13/2004 @ 11:44 am
For evil to triump…..all it takes is……
for good men to do nothing….
God bless Nick Berg
God bless America
Comment by Words of Wisdom — 5/13/2004 @ 12:22 pm
kill em all
Comment by dude — 5/13/2004 @ 12:30 pm
all of em, whoever gets in way. if they do thise kinda shit like “sawing” of the head, i say kill em all, whoever supports em, in palestine, egypt, iraq, or arabia. Those shitheads should know their place.
Comment by dude — 5/13/2004 @ 12:32 pm
My point - I have a sense of remorse for Berg. Yet, he wasn’t safe, because he wasn’t in our country. How could his liberties be protected? Why did he go, why did he tempt chance? Why did he have to do what he did? Did he go to be a hero? He didn’t travel under the radar. Why didn’t anyone in his family stop him from going?
Comment by liberal_girl — 5/13/2004 @ 12:34 pm
I saw an attractive woman once, she was wearing a skimpy outfit that left nothing to the imagination. When I managed to get her alone, I raped her. After all, she was asking for it by wearing what she was wearing.
If it seems like I’m blaming the victim, I guess it’s because I AM blaming the victim.
Comment by jamonery — 5/13/2004 @ 12:41 pm
nick berg was dead before he was beheaded. the editing of the video is exactly what it should be to fool people into thinking he was alive when he was not. blood would have spewed strongly had he been living. no blood can be seen as the cut is made.
Comment by miki — 5/13/2004 @ 12:53 pm
nick berg was dead before he was beheaded. the editing of the video is exactly what it should be to fool people into thinking he was alive when he was not. blood would have spewed strongly had he been living. no blood can be seen as the cut is made.
Comment by miki — 5/13/2004 @ 12:53 pm
This is in response to retinablack. Are you crazy or just stupid? I guess you forgot that the reason we went to Afghanistan was to put a stop to the terrorists who attacked us. (You do remember we were atatacked on Sept. 11th, don’t you?) If Osama Bin Ladin lived on the island of Fiji we would’ve gone there - oil or no oil. Then you compare South Africa to Iraq? Obviously South Africa posed no threat to us. And although they didn’t treat the blacks in their country fairly, I don’t think there are any mass graves, rape rooms, or shredders filled with human remains hidden somewhere there. If that were the case Nelson Mandela would not be alive today.
And I’m so sick of hearing about us being after Iraq’s oil. Saddan Hussein himself offered a deal to George Bush sr. on that regard in the first Gulf war, and he turned it down. And when we had soundly beat them in that war and could’ve marched our troops up to Baghdad and taken over their oil production, we didn’t. The truth is that the 3 greatest consumers of Iraqi oil were France, Germany and Russia. And we’ve seen the documents out of Iraq showing the corruption in those countries and others in the U.N.’s food for oil scam. (Including some of those in England’s Labor party).
Your insinuations about our govt. participating in the death of Berg and in 9/11 are not only disgusting, they make you look like an idiot. Spare your self some embarrassment and check yourself in to some place where you will be watched over carefully in a nicely padded room. I think there may be an opening in a place in Baghdad for you.
Comment by beckitann — 5/13/2004 @ 12:56 pm
I thought I was the only one that noticed the lack of blood, the poor editing, odd screaming and poor image quality. WTF? thanks miki
Comment by downstream — 5/13/2004 @ 1:22 pm
miksarsha,
Try it again. I tried it after you left your comment, and had no problem.
You may have just tried to download it at a time when too many other people were also trying. These links can get overloaded when there are a lot of people trying to access the same thing at the same time.
Comment by Patterico — 5/13/2004 @ 1:39 pm
Retinablack,
I can’t believe how stupid you sound. Don’t you have any pride as an american? People like you are the reason that this country is torn apart. I’m also sick of everyone criticizing Bush and his administration. The war in Iraq is not for oil, it is to protect helpless pussies like you that have no clue of what is going on. Did you forget that these cocksuckers killed thousands of people on 9/11? That should be more than enough reason for the US to go to war with them. Oil has nothing to do with it. If this was about oil, we would’ve taken all we wanted and you wouldn’t have to pay $2.00 a gallon for it. You stupid ass.
Comment by JimmyJames — 5/13/2004 @ 1:56 pm
Ha ha you don’t know how entertaining this all is. As I am waiting for my video to finish downloading I’m reading everyone’s comments on the situation. It is so funny to me when people who are SO FOR THE GOVERNMENT ignore the utter fishiness of the whole B.uS.h administration. If anyone who reported this crap would have any journalistic integrity or research skills, they would know that the man that they are saying is the one who is doing the beheading is DEAD. Or he was reported as such anyway. So I wish these people would make up their minds. How come nobody bothered to mention it when Nick Berg was kidnapped or held in custody back in APRIL? How come nobody mentioned it when his body was found Saturday? It seems to me that since they are going to release the rest of the footage and pics from the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal, no one is going to care because this “poor American” guy got decapitated. How convenient. Get the hell out of here. What a scam.
Comment by Diabolique — 5/13/2004 @ 2:44 pm
There are some very thought-provoking comments obviously made by lucid intelligent folks herein. I don’t agree with all the points, obviously, but we are at least all horrified, to one degree or another, not only with the Rick Berg murder but with the entire scenario in Iraq. Forgive me if I appear to be going on a tangent but here we are sending our troops and civilians to ALLEGEDLY impose democracy, education, even building and manning schools, etc when our own people cannot articulate their thoughts in writing without appearing like elementary school children. Why don’t we just fix our own problems and start with the basics, i.e., properly educating our children before we send them out to die meddling in others’ affairs. Obviously the answer is money/oil. And we wonder why our friends and barbarian enemies despise us. We’re greedy and superficial.
Comment by Monica — 5/13/2004 @ 2:52 pm
I agree–this is the true enemy of the West. Looks like we are in this for the long haul, and I mean until one side or the others wins. The people in the Middle East will never fight against these bastards. I have a theory that the reason all this is happening is the INABILITY FOR ISLAM TO ASSIMILATE INTO THE MODERN WORLD. It is an ancient religion and society in it’s death throes. Because of this, fanatical reactionaries have taken control of the region. They are unable to cope with CHANGE or MODERNITY or DEMOCRACY. So Islam is breathing it’s last gasps. Time to put the final stake in the heart in my opinion.
God Bless America, Infidels and Christians and Pagans and Jews alike. Let us stand together against this hideous enemy….
Comment by Monica — 5/13/2004 @ 2:55 pm
And before anyone can say it, yes I do have pride as an American blah blah blah. If you are too blind to call it how you see it, or if you’re too naive to know when someone is blowing smoke up your ass, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Comment by Diabolique — 5/13/2004 @ 3:01 pm
Hi, I am French and I know that for certain people in America it is not the best.
But as all Americans are not agree with Pdt Bush, some French people are not agree with Pdt Chirac. But I am not here to talk about that but about Nick Berg. I’ve seen the video and I don’t find any other words than: barbarians.
I wanted to see the video not as a “voyeur” but as paying respect to this poor guy. He died alone far away from his family and in the ugliest conditions. I think he deserves that more people can see it then he will not have die for nothing.
God bless him
A French who loves America
Comment by ParisFr — 5/13/2004 @ 3:04 pm
what can i say? i really don’t know, i think that sorry won’t be enough, but i say it
i’m sorry
i have an idea of what you can feel, because we feel the same think with palestinians and yhe iraqians, but it doesn’t mean that we have to do the same think, we have to be more couragous and fignt injustice with justice
i’m really sorry
a muslim
Comment by a muslim — 5/13/2004 @ 3:04 pm
Islam does not have to assimilate into the modern world. As far as I’m concerned they were over there minding their own business. That is really reminiscent of what they did to Native Americans and Black people. You go over there wanting everything, being someplace that you have no business being, and how do you expect the native people to react? What if someone tried to come to America and change our culture because they didn’t like how G Dub was running the country? Nobody would stand for that shit! America is like a big stupid dog that doesn’t know when to stop eating. We should pull out of Iraq and stop sacrificing our men and women for a cause that makes no good sense at all.
Comment by Diabolique — 5/13/2004 @ 3:09 pm
i have loaded the video but for some reson its been loading for like 10 min how long does it take?
Comment by t — 5/13/2004 @ 3:15 pm
the way i see it i say we nuke iraq because for most terriost they dres up as civilans and just come up and pick a few marines out were losing tons of guys so its not endign so i say lets nuke the dumbass cowerds if they wanna trick and hide i say we kick them wereit hurts. the problem with this action is that there our real civlians there but if we could over come that i say we nuke them.
Comment by t — 5/13/2004 @ 3:21 pm
This video is just further proof that this “War on terror” will never be won with superior firepower or more troops. This is a war of ideals not terror. All the parties involved believe their cause to be just. The simple truth of the matter is that EVERYONE is wrong in this situation. Unfortunately their heads are so full of the religious bullshit that everyone is preaching that they can’t see it. My deepest sympathies and condalences to the Berg family and every other family that has lost a loved one because of this stupid shit. While we may gasp in horror at the “Heartlessness” of our supposed enemies, keep in mind that the USA has been responsible for the deaths of billions of innocent people over the decades just to further our own agendas. Perhaps someday the leaders as well as the citizens of this country might be able to pull their heads out of their asses long enough to see that all we’re really doing in this “War” is further proving to the rest of the world that America is the land of hypocrites.
Comment by skip — 5/13/2004 @ 3:22 pm
These are sick, Digusting vile wretches of humanity, and they should be annihilated. No remorse, no regrets. Kill them and let God sort out the souls from the soulless!
Comment by Anger101 — 5/13/2004 @ 3:52 pm
And skip…. you are a fool… a mindless, liberal, jackass, with no basis in reality, maybe we should all hug and everything would be great! That is why the world trade centers were destroyed… because of pinhead liberal asses like yourself…. idealistic little simpleton…
Comment by Anger101 — 5/13/2004 @ 3:55 pm
quote:”It seems to me that since they are going to release the rest of the footage and pics from the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal, no one is going to care because this “poor American” guy got decapitated. How convenient”
Don’t even start there. The reason no one gives a shit about the Iraqi prisoner abuse is because these prisoners are fucking dogs. These assholes have killed so many innocent people it’s not even funny. Nick Berg was an innocent man. That’s why people weep for him. I can’t believe you morons can feel sorry for the Iraqi prisoners that were mistreated when these dipshits have slaughtered and killed so many people.
UNBELIEVABLE GET WITH IT PEOPLE
Comment by JimmyJames — 5/13/2004 @ 4:32 pm
Really messy situation, but did you notice that there is no blood spurting out when they cut the poor boy’s head? The main body artery passes through the neck, so when you cut it and there’s still heart beat, blood JUMPS out like a fountain. Anyone noticed that? It’s all montage, actually the scene where he’s alive stops at the point where the camera zooms in. Afterwards he’s already dead, you could have found out just by paying attention to the voices, the don’t match to what we see. I mean, how can a man in Berg’s situation scream only when they put the knife on his throat and not before, when they violently push him down and all scream together above him. Also the voice screams, then stops for a sec and then gags, that’s totally abnormal, gagging should come right at the time they cut the throat and then no other sound could be made.
Ofcourse the act is tremendous and shocking this way or the other, and i strongly disagree with it. But consider the people of iraq. Should they think: OK, lets be civilized and give away our prisoners untouched when our people die humiliated naked or dressed up like women in jail tortured by the americans? I don’t think so.
The iraqis are fighting for the freedom they didn’t have with Saddam and didn’t gain from the americans. What are the american troops fighting for? The oil of the colossal companies, or the money of the weapon manufacturers? IS IT ALL ABOUT $$$ AT THE END? Somebody tell me…
God rest Nick’s soul and give courage to his family…
Comment by Sotos the Greek — 5/13/2004 @ 4:36 pm
What you dont know is that in the prison not only did the prisoners get humiliated by getting naked, there were also people who died from the American abuse, and women raped. And everyone knows the Quote “AN EYE FOR AN EYE”. Im not on the terrorists side, but everyones acting like they just attack americans for no reason!
so again i say an eye for an eye.
THANK U
Comment by READ THIS — 5/13/2004 @ 5:40 pm
MY POINT WHEN I SAY AN EYE FOR AN EYE
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/
Comment by READ THIS — 5/13/2004 @ 5:54 pm
what can we expect from barbarians, those that are “technically” smarter than dogs, but have no soul. Those that are not humans, an error in the evolution to civilized man. Let the arab sub-humans drink their oil. I only hope that if we cannot seek vengence upon these animals, that God can show them an equal mercy they have shown. Hell’s fire shall burn bright with the flesh of these evil things. I am a man, and not a God, so I will not forgive, I refuse to forget. If Allah supports this action, then Allah is evil. I don’t in my heart believe he is, but if he is, then the one true God shall destroy him. I pray for the families of those slain at the hands of these arab islamic sub-humans. I pray for the families of those who perished in Washington, New York, and Pennsylvania, by the hands of these same evil creatures. I pray for hope, I pray for justice. I pray for the civilized, peace loving world, may God smile upon them. I pray that God take this anger from my heart, but not from my memory.
Comment by Tim — 5/13/2004 @ 6:43 pm
The terrorist attacks on our nation and on others around the world — up to and including this grisly murder of Nic Berg — are beyond despicable. I will never understand what goes through the small minds of such terrorists to justify these horrific acts.
That said, our nation has been made victim of the greatest bait and switch scam in history. What does Iraq have to do with avenging 9/11? I am NOT suggesting it’s all about oil, I’m not that cynical. But Saddam had nothing to do with the terrorists. Sure, there were probably a few terrorists hanging out in Iraq before the war. Hell, we now know there were terrorists hanging out in America before 9/11! And there are probably still some. But Saddam was a secular, not-terribly-religious leader who had nothing to gain by any association with fundamentalist terrorists. NOW there are LOTS of terrorists in Iraq. WE let them in. Now Iraq is the biggest terrorist playground this side of Afghanistan.
Having gotten rid of the murderer Saddam will certainly be a good thing in the long run. But make no mistake. We didn’t go in there to get rid of terrorists. Maybe we went in there honestly expecting to find WMDs. But this was never about terrorists in Iraq. It had nothing to do with quelling terrorism — we should have kept our concentration on the hills of the Afghan-Pakistani border if that had been our concern. Yes, today we ARE NOW fighting terrorists in Iraq, but they either came since the start of the war, or at a minimum, they now have more free reign since Iraq’s police and internal security forces were wiped out.
Lastly, I have no patience for people who seem to equate Iraqi=Terrorist. Most Iraqis just want to live in peace. I still do hope we may help them get it sooner or later.
And I have even less patience for those who would equate Muslim=Terrorist. In the course of history and around the world we have seen terrorists of every religion and from every nation, including our own. There are a__holes everywhere. The Islamic terrorists we’re fighting today don’t have a corner on the market, and it would certainly be unfair to blame all Muslims for the evil works of the small number of terrorists. Even if there are thousands of Islamic terrorists, remember that there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who probably want peace. It’s the latter that we want to help.
Comment by bait and switch — 5/13/2004 @ 6:46 pm
that was so retarted what they done i think we should blow up the whole country and show them how canble we can be
Comment by burnic — 5/13/2004 @ 7:11 pm
nuke all [offensive term deleted]!!!!!
Comment by polly manchester — 5/13/2004 @ 7:22 pm
This comment by “burnic” is EXACTLY the problem I mention above. Of course what those terrorists did is unspeakably awful. What’s also awful is that so many Americans seem to be so ignorant as to think that because terrorists are operating somewhere — Iraq in this case — that means the whole country are terrorists so we should just “blow up the whole country.” How dumb can you be? There are terrorists in Spain. Do you want to blow up Spain? There are terrorists in Ireland. Do you want to blow up Ireland? Hell, there are terrorists in America — remember 9/11?! I’d like to kill the terrorists working here, too. But I don’t want to blow up the whole country! Do you?
Comment by bait and switch — 5/13/2004 @ 7:26 pm
I suppose I am the naieve “token” idealist here.
What ever happened to RESPECT for religions and cultures, as well as HUMAN DIGNITY?
Argue all you want about your opinions. After all, each of us will die at sometime; then we will answer for each of our actions in life.
SEMPER FIDELIS
Comment by lil brat — 5/13/2004 @ 7:31 pm
Folks, I can’t necessarily monitor every comment on here, but if I happen to see something offensive, it may be edited or deleted, and/or the commenter banned.
Offensive comments obviously do not reflect Patterico’s opinion.
Comment by Patterico — 5/13/2004 @ 7:31 pm
By the way, Polly Manchester has been banned.
Comment by Patterico — 5/13/2004 @ 7:34 pm
I’ve traveled around this planet. Traveled to countries where walking down the street police carry machine guns. I’ve been in airports where I have been grilled multiple times before I have been allowed to leave a country (these are European countries and I’m a Caucasian female). I sent a package to a friend a few months ago – she lives in Australia. She was asked to open it outside in the event it could have been a bomb. Countries are frightened of what Americans’ ‘baggage’. What we might produce or how being associated with us might bring misfortune to them. Still they fear being our enemy.
Yes, it was a terrible tragedy what happened on 9/11. Did any of those people deserve to die? Heck no, but do we attack a country or do we go after the individuals? Is that really why we are in Iraq?
I will tell you something – I am thankful for the freedoms I am granted in this country, but when I leave this country, I never brag about being an American. We are hated or laughed at as a society. We’re viewed as arrogant, self-righteous, and people who live in a bubble, among other things. Hmm…I wonder why? My sister says, “Some stupid people made mistakes in those prisons….” Stupid mistakes – stupid mistakes made while representing our military during a war. Why shouldn’t we be hated? Those things weren’t done as a means to interrogate those prisoners. You’re an idiot to think they were. Those pranks were done to those prisoners out of a means of abuse of power. A world power, a.k.a. Americans, the bully in the school yard. We bully in the world and it happens in our own backyard within our own culture. When are going to stop taking the grand stands and go after the people who do these wrong deeds?
Comment by liberal_girl — 5/13/2004 @ 8:05 pm
THIS VIDEO ONLY HARDENS THE HEARTS OF AMERICANS TO THE POINT THAT WE SHOULD RESPOND TO THIS TREATMENT TEN FOLD. THESE PEOPLE SHOULD FEEL THE WRATH THAT WE CAN BESTOW APON THEM AND THEIR FAMILYS. I WISH I WAS YOUNGER AND STILL IN THE ARMED SERVICE. I KNOW IN MY HEART I COULD AND WOULD KILL AS MANY OF THESE ANIMALS MYSELF.
WE NEED TO STEP UP OUR ATTACKS OF THESE PEOPLE ALONG WITH THEIR CHILDREN THAT THEY TEACH THEIR BELIEFS TO.
Comment by Ray D. — 5/13/2004 @ 8:29 pm
war is on. we must deal with it as it will be pain and suffer on both sides.
Comment by jorge — 5/13/2004 @ 8:50 pm
THAT RIGHT WAR IS ON!
SO LET’S GIVE 100% OF WHAT WE KNOW.
SOAK OUR BULLETS IN PIGS BLOOD AND PIERCE THEIR SKULLS AND LET’S NOT FORGET THEIR CHILDREN TOO!!
Comment by Ray D — 5/14/2004 @ 4:34 am
can i just make a quik and a very important comment. islam forbids what happened to Nick Berg, it is WRONG. so please do not use Islam as what those animals did was not Islamic
Comment by bana — 5/14/2004 @ 7:06 am
Ray,
I don’t really think you should kill children. Although I can see a point to what you are saying. These animals teach their children at a very young age to hate americans and to carry out these savage acts. The whole culture of these morons is to hate, kill, and torture. And they do it all in the name of Allah. These people consistently use religion as an excuse. I know much about the Muslim religion, but find it hard to believe that any religion would support the killing of innocent people and the basic way of life of these terrorists.
Comment by JimmyJames — 5/14/2004 @ 7:08 am
I meant I DON’T know much about the muslim religion.
Comment by JimmyJames — 5/14/2004 @ 7:10 am
Carnival of the Idiotarians, Part Duh
I just got through the long comment thread on Patterico’s blog, and its filled with just as much idiocy as Justin’s. Now that I’ve blogged about Nick Berg’s murder too, I suspect the troll flock will eventually find my site, too. As a general pra…
Trackback by damnum absque injuria — 5/14/2004 @ 9:57 am
they don’t work
Comment by gil — 5/14/2004 @ 11:06 am
Bottom line is that they are a cancer in the world that will never stop.
Comment by Ray — 5/14/2004 @ 11:08 am
kill anything that moves west of california or east of the atlantic ocean.
Comment by t doag — 5/14/2004 @ 1:22 pm
Just so the rest of the world knows:
Most of us in America don’t think that way. Honestly we don’t. We don’t blame Islam in general. We don’t want to kill all foreigners. We just want to fight this particular brand of extremism that causes others to find joy in murder.
Comment by Patterico — 5/14/2004 @ 1:47 pm
Not only are some of the things being said here about the Iraqi people cruel, they are also racist. You can’t suggest to really kill off a whole country. As far as those Iraqi prisoners go, most of them that are in those jails are not murderers, at least not of our people anyway. They’re not even suspected terrorist. You can’t say they are dogs or anything like that. You can’t say that they are soulless because you do not know them and you are not in the position to judge. I feel sorry for Nick Berg. Yes he was innocent.
Iraq has long been known for what we perceive as brutality. They have no mercy for their enemies (why would they?). Sawing off that guy’s head was their version of us humiliating Iraqi prisoners. I can’t think of a reason for the US ever being in Iraq.
Comment by Diabolique — 5/14/2004 @ 5:02 pm
Also, I’ve seen people killed worse in my own neighborhood. Rarely do I see the same outrage.
Comment by Diabolique — 5/14/2004 @ 5:03 pm
Nicks death, was horrible, to all americans, and to me. but now we know how it feels. The iraqis felt this and still feel this everyday. people beatin to death in the prisons “becide getting nude”. imagine yourself in this position you and your friend “maybe even a brother or your dad” naked on top of each other, so that an american idiot could laugh and get a picture. how would that feel?. what these 4 men did in this video was simply revenge nothing else” although it was wrong since Berg was just a civilian”. But we should allways question what we do to them before we say that they are just barbarians that want to kill us americans for no reason!
I think it is time to get out of iraq cause all we are doing is causing trouble to them, which would eventually cause problems to us “like the beheading of Nick”.
PS: and also we need to vote for Kerry, cause Bush is just to Dumb!
please think of what i said.
Comment by JOHN. S — 5/14/2004 @ 7:33 pm
It was also wrong because it was murder, not just humiliation.
Comment by Patterico — 5/14/2004 @ 9:28 pm
Oh come on my fellow americans, it’s all about crime and punishment after all. now, i don’t actually know who’s the criminal and who’s the punisher… just think about it for a while without national fanatism and you’ll see the whole scenery can be seen by two different angles.
Also, as for the idea of “fair and world protecting america”, just keep in mind that when my country was under dictatorship and hundrends of thousands of people were killed, vanished, abused, tortured and so on, the US did nothing. the same thing goes with other countries too, i.e. in africa or asia, or even southern america. but the US do nothing when it comes to non profitable grounds… any comments?
BE FAIR JUDGES
Comment by Sotos the Greek — 5/15/2004 @ 10:16 am
And don’t be suprised if tomorrow or the day after another horrible attack hits the inside of your country. you always feel so safe and that is so wrong, haven’t you learnt anything all that long? naive ideology is what causes bad results…
Comment by Sotos the Greek — 5/15/2004 @ 10:20 am
Problems? Solutions.
If they think being humiliated is worse than killed, then maybe we should just kill them.
Ethnic Clashes? Cut the country in to three parts; Kurd, Sunni, Shiite; then deal with each as appropriate.
If they want an infrastructure, let them build it themselves. We are under no obligation to help any of them. All we need to be able to do is move our forces through and attack Iran or Syria if necessary.
Anyone who thinks the best way to deal with this destructive, hostile ideology; an ideology that makes war simultaneously in Chechnya, Kashmir, South Africa, North West Africa, Indonesia, The Philippines, Israel, The United States, Spain, France and England and in every case claims it is the one oppressed; deal with this Ideology by surrendering, by running away, by feeling guilty about someone who got their wiener pointed at by a woman, well these people are idiots and Darwin assures me that nature will take it’s course.
Comment by Doc — 5/15/2004 @ 10:29 am
Response to Sotos the Greek
“but the US do nothing when it comes to non profitable grounds… any comments?”
Yeah, I have a comment on that…
The Faulklands…How were thay profitable?
Panama…We removed Noriega. Where’s the profit there?
Bosnia…Last time I checked that wasn’t too profitable either.
Desert storm 1…Kuwait offered to pay 100% of what we spent to liberate them so where’s the profit? I’m paying over $2 a gallon for gas so don’t try and say we got a break on the oil prices instead of taking money from them.
Viet Nam…Please….don’t EVEN get me started on that!
Korea…A country with little more than rice paddies at the time. Where’s the big profit?
These examples are just off the top of my head too! Get your history facts straight before you go spouting accusations about MY country! We may not be perfect but we OBVIOUSLY did a few things right to get to the position where we are now economically! It’s not America’s fault that YOUR forefathers didn’t perform as well!
Comment by Tony — 5/15/2004 @ 11:05 am
Dear Patterico: Humiliation is the same as death to these people, some would rather die then be humiliated that way in the prisons!
Nudity is not accepted in the Arab/Muslim society. Plus they wernt only humiliated, some were beatin to death which is murder also. So in these peoples eyes it is equal.
Comment by JOHN. S — 5/15/2004 @ 4:17 pm
Dear Patterico: Humiliation in that way is the same as murder to these people, some would rather die than be humiliated that way in the prison. Nudity is not accepted in the Arab/Muslim society. Plus its not only humiliation we are talking about, some were beatin to death. so in the end its all equal in the eyes of thses people.
Comment by JOHN. S — 5/15/2004 @ 4:23 pm
Sorry about my comment posting twice, my computer is messed up!
Comment by JOHN. S — 5/15/2004 @ 4:26 pm
Respond to TONY
Dont even go there. everyone knows the US’s “Liberation of Iraq” was for the US’s advantage!
maybe not in the other countries you listed, but in Iraq its all for the Good Of America.
When did the US care for the Iraqi People, Saddam was in power for so many years and only now do we care? plus America is a supporter of Israel and saddam was a threat to Isreal since he attacked it once, so now that he is gone he is no longer a threat to Isreal, and is no longer a threat to the US since we love Israel “the Muslim killing country” so much, in which alot of our taxes go to like it or not. and the last reason is OIL, OIL, OIL, and…..um……….. oh yeah OIL.
so Tony Buddy you need to wake up and smell the reality world. Because ur living in the Dream world.
Comment by KALUB — 5/15/2004 @ 4:49 pm
Found your site while searching internet for Nick Berg video. Lots of flying rumors out there but I would not put anything past this administration, even an arranged murder (oh, gasp!). We must not forget Bush Sr. was the head of the CIA and the rotten apple has not fallen far from the tree. Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam.
Comment by Paula — 5/16/2004 @ 12:06 am
Democratic facism creates a bogus video to throw everybody off, then plants some nerve gas residue bring back possible WMD. How can anybody even believe what this current administration says? Bush, Rumsfield, and Cheney………Sons of Satan
Comment by Todd Wise — 5/17/2004 @ 7:46 pm
Response to KALUB
You obviously didn’t READ my post. I never said ANYTHING about the current conflict / war in Iraq.
I responded to sotos the greek’s comment that the US NEVER intervenes for a country unless it has something to gain. If you’d actually READ my previous post again you’ll see that I did not use the current war in Iraq as an example but, now with the recent news release, I’ll comment on the current war in Iraq. The current war was started because it was believed that Iraq possesed WMD’s.
According to the liberal’s rantings they didn’t exist! WRONG! I believe if you’ll look at yesterdays news one of these “non-existant” WMD’s was actually USED AGAINST US TROOPS!!! Yes, an improvised explosive device containing sarin nerve agent was exploded on US troops this weekend. There’s a LOT of sand and places to stockpile weapons in Iraq. The insurgents are now grasping at straws as it appears they’re ready to tilt their hand and use weapons that they supposedly didn’t have. As far as Israel goes, the arab nations have gang banged Israel since the beginning. Any military actions Israel has taken in retaliation have been warranted. As far as I’m concerned, Israel has shown some unbelieveable restraint as realistically, they could demolish ALL the Arab nations anytime they got an inkling to do so. Even before the US had tight relations with Israel they have prevailed against Arab insurgents without any real effort.
So, I say to you once again, we may not be perfect but who is? People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
Comment by Tony — 5/18/2004 @ 9:15 am
So far, I think I’ve been the only blogger on the planet to maintain links to the Berg murder without seeing the discussion area turn into a mirror site for Moonbats ‘R Us. Knock on wood - I like to think that making an example of the first moonbat has helped to keep the rest at bay, if only for a little while.
Comment by Xrlq — 5/18/2004 @ 9:45 am
Respond to Tony
Ok, im sorry about the Iraqi stuff i didnt know you wernt talking about Iraq. But anyway, about Israel, it never had the power to do anything without America, and what do you meen it could destroy any arab nation even before the US supported it? The US has allways supported it, right after the jews got out of the Nazi camps the US sent them right to Palestine and took it over, and ever since, the US was their Bodygaurd. If you talk about terrorism, Israel is the head of terrorism killing Palestinians and bringing down their houses! and who is their oppenent? ………”Little kids with rocks”,
and maybe once in a while a kid who loses his family who just blows himself up. No arab Nation has the power to do anything against Israel. Isreal just rules the middle east with the help of my and your taxes “sadly to say”.
Just yesterday did you see what happened to the palestineans who were in a none violent strike? 22 died from an Isrealie chopper that sent down a couple of missals, and no one can ask why or say anything to Isreal. Oh but thats ok , i meen the palestineans get that everyday, they dont need to have a land, or maybe they dont need to live!. My friend Tony your wrong about Isreal, for they are not the ones that get gang banged by the arabs, its the other way around but with the US as a condom “Protection”.
Comment by KALUB — 5/19/2004 @ 6:08 pm
OK KALUB….since you obviously haven’t done your history homework, here’s a synopsis of how Israel became a nation. You’ll notice, there’s no mention of the US at all here and based on the history, when the US HAS stepped in, it has been in effect to help defend a sovereign (sp?) nation to defend itself AGAINST FOREIGN INVADERS!!!
My apoligies to Patterico for the space used but I’m sick and tired of EVERYONE blaming the US for Israel’s position in the Middle East. I also assume you remember the 1st gulf war where Saddam launched numerous SCUD attacks against Israel who wasn’t even INVOLVED in the first gulf war!
Here goes:
From 1517-1917 Turkey’s Ottoman Empire controlled a vast Arab empire, a portion of which is today Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine. During World War I (1914-1918), Turkey supported Germany. When Germany was defeated, so were the Turks. In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was “mandated” to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France… and “Palestine” (today’s Jordan, Israel and “West Bank”) was mandated to Great Britain.
Because no other peoples had ever established a national homeland in “Palestine” since the Jews had done it 2,000 years before, the British “looked favorably” upon the creation of a Jewish National Homeland throughout ALL of Palestine. The Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880’s in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel. This Jewish effort to revitalize the land attracted an equally large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions. There was never any attempt to “rid” the area of what few Arabs there or those Arab masses that immigrated into this area along with the Jews!
In 1923, the British divided the “Palestine” portion of the Ottoman Empire into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only west of the Jordan river. In effect, the British had “chopped off” 75% of the originally proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian nation called Trans-Jordan (meaning “across the Jordan River”). This territory east of the Jordan River was given to Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia) who was not even an Arab-”Palestinian!” This portion of Palestine was renamed Trans-Jordan. Trans-Jordan and would again be renamed “Jordan” in 1946. In other words, the eastern 3/4 of Palestine would be renamed TWICE, in effect, erasing all connection to the name “Palestine!” However, the bottom line is that the Palestinian Arabs had THEIR “Arab Palestinian” homeland. The remaining 25% of Palestine (now WEST of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now.
Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory west of the Jordan River launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron massacres of 1929 and later during the 1936-39 “Arab Revolt.” The British at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became painfully clear to the Palestinian Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British.
The Palestinian Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs Palestinians…. thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces [IDF]. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgun led by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British. Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the Palestine matter over to the United Nations.
The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted… the Arab Palestinians rejected. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine… both east AND west of the Jordan River.
Our Palestinian Cousins started the ‘48 war, and in so doing released the warlike appetites of a nation of survivors, a people with no place to run, who had repressed their rage for millennia, and had now earned full title to it!
KALUB….I DARE you to refute this synopsis of Israel history….The Arab’s are the invaders.
NOT the Jews! By the way, I’m NOT Jewish. I simply believe in getting my facts straight before forming an opinion. I use facts to support my opinions. NOT THE RANTINGS OF OTHERS!!!!
Comment by Tony — 5/20/2004 @ 11:46 am
Respond to Tony
I never ment that the jews that came with the help of the british and later the US, were the first to take over palestine, i knew there was Arab-Jews before but they never were a problem, they both lived in peace together, i dont know where you got the fighting from. Ever since the British gave palestine up to the jews palestine was done, not with the help of fellow jews but with the help of the U.S. Palestine is an arab country, just cause you come from Egypt and stay and call it your home land, then leave, dont meen its yours again after 2000 years. Therefore the jews are the invadors. And im not saying the US is the reason why Israel is there in the Middle east, im saying its the reason why Israel has the balls to do what its doing now, and if you dont know what its doing now i suggest you watch the news.
And about WEST of the Jordan River, that land was for palestinean-Arabs and for palestinean-jews together living in one countrty, thats why the Arabs refused. but lets just assume that you are right, ok? lets say the arabs are the bad ones that want the whole land to themselfes! since when did a minority group get a counry? there were jews in almost every country at that time, none asked to have a country or to split up a country, and what gives the palestinean-jews the right to do so?. Palestine had allways been an arab country, and should have allways stayed that way. No group of people have the right to come in and take over a country and kill its people and throw the rest in the west bank, and best of all not only did they want palestine but Lebanon also?
Tony……..your history is mostly right but also mostly wrong. Yes the jews needed a home. But thats to bad,cause they never had one,they were just ment to live all across the world which some still do. And if the US still funds them im affraid the US will allways be hated all around the world.
Comment by KALUB — 5/20/2004 @ 1:25 pm
OK KALUB…..based on your logic what do you say to this solution:
According to you, the Jews “left Israel 2000 years ago.” Because of this, they no longer have any right to the country. Well, from 1517-1917 it was owned by the Turks. Not just the land of Israel, but Lebanon, Syria, Jordan AND Palestine! Based on your logic of “they left it so it’s no longer theirs,” do you also believe we should take away the countries of Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Jordan and the west bank region and give them back to Turkey? After all, they were wrongfully ousted by the British weren’t they? In reality, they only lost the land due to their support of Germany in WWI! Based on your logic ALL the above mentioned countries should be given back to the Turks! The Jewish people didn’t STEAL Israel rather, they were AWARDED it by the British in the spoils of WWI! Not only that, it was a TOTAL MESS!!! They took a desolate, horrible piece of land that NO ONE was interested in, cleaned it up, developed it and made it habitable. After doing this, the Brits then TOOK BACK 75% of the land they gave to the Jews to give to the Arabs!! Still, the Jews were happy with having their own country, however smaller.
So, again I say, based upon YOUR logic, the only FAIR thing to do would be to return ALL of Israel, Syria, Jordan and the current Palestinain lands back to Turkey. Right?
And since you’re bashing the US for defending Israel from foreign invaders, shouldn’t you also be bashing the French for aiding the US in the revolutionary war? After all, we were a British colony after all weren’t we? Oh yeah that’s right, Britian just claimed this land from the Native Americans and annexed it as part of their country and we as Americans, aided by the French, took it away from England even though the Native Americans were here first. Realistically, without the aide of the French, the US would still be a part of Great Britian right? Those bad Frenchmen!
Helping some people take a country from another country who had taken it from some other people before it was taken back by someone else!
You ever heard the term “To the victor goes the spoils of war.” ? What country are you from? How did it become a country? How many countries today weren’t other countries in the past? Stop focusing on 1 based upon bias and look at world history as a whole! The human race as a whole has wronged each other since the begining. There never may be a completely fair answer but you MUST take all the facts involved in a situation before you let bias sway your opinion.
Comment by Tony — 5/21/2004 @ 9:23 am
By the way….
“when did a minority group get a counry?”
The United States of America. July 4th, 1776.
The American British colonials immigrated to America because they wanted to practice a religion that was different than England.
Comment by Tony — 5/21/2004 @ 9:28 am
Furthermore per your comment:
“Palestine is an arab country”
Please find the country of Palestine on a world map for me. Don’t put yourself out to terribly much because: Palestine DOESN’T EXIST!!
When it DID exist it BELONGED TO THE JEWS!!!!
Comment by Tony — 5/21/2004 @ 4:19 pm
oh yeah tony my man, you’re absolutely right…
but you seem to be forgetting the money the big weapon producers gained from all these altrouistic wars…as well as the connection Bush and all the previous presidents of the US had to them…
oh well, god bless america
for america is what helps us stay free whenever we need it
no matter we want it or not…
god bless
Comment by Sotos the Greek — 5/26/2004 @ 7:16 am
Respond to tony
i am from turkey (well my parents are), and ill have you know that we are happy with what we have, lebanon, syria, and jordan are countries that split up from the ottoman empire, not one of those countries were taken from us!, they simply split up.
and Tony dont you dare say palestine isnt there on the map, it is there under the dirty covers of Israel (the invadors).
Tony why do you support Isreal so much? when you know they kill palestineans everyday and they do all this evil? dont you watch the news?
and yeah, stop trying to smart talk me with your US history homework we are talking about the middle east here.
Comment by KALUB — 5/26/2004 @ 7:07 pm
2nd respond to tony:
Im am not antijewish, or anything. its just that i see the palestineans,and their poor lives from what the jews have done with them. and it hurts so much to know that im living in a country where im free to do what i want, and they are living under isrealie occupation.
I see the pictures of the children who are dead, and the pictures of the women who lose their husbands, and the people who spend so much to build a home, and one day lose it to isrealie soldiers. Its sad my friend Tony, its very sad.
Most people dont see it on the news, and some just ignore it like you. but imagine that was you under the occupation would you still love Isreal as much?
Comment by KALUB — 5/26/2004 @ 7:19 pm
Sorry, Kalub, but until the “Palestinians” quit murdering innocent Israeli civilians, they don’t deserve their own country, and cannot be trusted with one. Not they’d know what to do with a country of their own if they had one. The Palestinian “authority” commits far more atrocities against innocent Palestinians than Israel ever has, or probably ever will.
Comment by Xrlq — 5/27/2004 @ 8:48 am
Ok Xrlq, what the palestineans do, is nothing more than revenge. what you see on the American media is what america wants you to see, they dont want to show you all of what Isreal does to the palestinians, they only show you what happens back, and ofcourse why would they show you what israel does since the US supports Isreal, the media doesnt want to show the American people that the US government supports killers/invadors. Xrlq, i was just like you i allways thought Isreal was the innocent one, but i searched and i learned about these people (palestineans), and what they go through. And i see that they have no way in fighting back but to take their lives and take away Isrealie lives also, so that Isreal could feel how it feels to lose a child or a wife. And even with all that it does not compare to the loses of Palestineans.
But sadly people like you dont know, because you believe what you see is the only thing.
The truth about this land is out there, it takes a person like me who wants to know the truth, to look for it, and find out about these dirty pigs who live in a clean land called Palestine.
Comment by KALUB — 5/27/2004 @ 6:48 pm
A word to the wise, Kalub: if you must lie, at least keep your lies consistent. Either lie and call Jews dirty pigs, or lie and claim you’re not anti-Jew, but please, don’t insult our intelligence by telling both lies in a single comment thread.
Comment by Xrlq — 5/27/2004 @ 8:22 pm
“lebanon, syria, and jordan are countries that split up from the ottoman empire, not one of those countries were taken from us!, they simply split up.”
You may have read that in a Turkish history book. You may have been taught that by your parents. It may be taught that way in Turkish schools to save face but, those would be the ONLY sources in the WORLD that would record the break up of the Ottoman empire in those terms. I notice you say your parents are from Turkey so that’s probably what they were taught…..Do some research (other than asking your mommy and daddy) and get back to me on that.
Comment by Tony — 5/28/2004 @ 1:55 pm
And by the way, you’ll notice that in none of my posts have I ever said a disliked Arabs, Palestinians, Iraqui’s, Jordanian’s OR Jews.
I DO watch the news, I DO my own research and I DON’T ignore ANY of it. I simply have drawn my conclusions based on the research.
Comment by Tony — 5/28/2004 @ 2:13 pm
respond to xrlq:
when i say dirty pigs, i dont mean the jewish people! i mean the Isrealies who kill innocent kids and women, regardless of their religion. As i said before i am not antijewish, and never will be (my best friend is jewish!). So if my people were killing innocent palestineans i would call them dirty pigs!
Comment by KALUB — 5/28/2004 @ 7:19 pm
respond to Tony
I dont think i was taught wrong by my parents. If those countries were taken away from us, We would be mad and teach our kids what really happened. Why would we lie and say they broke up if they were really taken from us?
And tony i think my parents are more educated about their country then you are (since it is their country!) No offence.
Comment by KALUB — 5/28/2004 @ 7:35 pm
So there’s absolutly NO possibility your parents are wrong? Again, have you actually GONE and checked into other historical sources? Why would they lie? Arab’s as a whole do not like to lose face in anything. The land was lost in WWI. Go check the history books, the internet, or the public library and prove me wrong. Didn’t you read my post? I said: Do some research (other than asking your mommy and daddy) and get back to me on that.
Unless that is, you’re too afraid you might find out the truth……
Comment by Tony — 6/1/2004 @ 2:58 pm
Respond to Tony
Look man, I know those lands in the ottoman empire were lost, but lost to people of the same religion same Haritage, who belonged in the Ottoman Empire, therefore they split up. They would be called lost if for example the Russians took Them, then we say the lands were lost. So Turkey is not mad and dont want those lands back, since they belong to its fellow Muslims.
PS: When you say im too scared to find out the truth, well ill tell you: i wouldnt give a crap about The Ottoman empire’s Truth it doesnt affect me at all!
Comment by KALUB — 6/1/2004 @ 3:49 pm
TONY, ITS FUNNY THAT KALUB SIGNED OFF WITH AN ATTITUDE OF “I DONT CARE!” PLAIN AND SIMPLE,YOU BOXED HIM IN! HE KNEW THE CONVERSATION WAS OVER THE MINUTE YOU SPOKE A LANGUAGE HE COULD NOT ENGAGE IN. HE WAS WRESTLING A STATUE,TRYING TO CONFORM ITS IMAGE INTO SOMETHING ITS NOT. THE TRUTH ABOUT FACTS ARE, ANY AND ALL NECESSARY DATA, AS YOU SHARED WITH FACTS IN HISTORY ARE NON-CONTESTABLE.YOU PRESENTED FACTS IN WHICH,OPINIONS,IDEAS BIASAS ARE EXPOSED! ANYONE WHO WILL NOT SEEK THE TRUTH WILL RUN FROM IT!
Comment by BILL — 6/2/2004 @ 11:42 am
“Look man, I know those lands in the ottoman empire were lost, but lost to people of the same religion same Haritage, who belonged in the Ottoman Empire, therefore they split up. They would be called lost if for example the Russians took Them, then we say the lands were lost.
Soooo…..you’re saying that the people of the Ottoman Empire had the same religion and heritage of the French and British? I’m not aware of many Muslim French or Brits. You seem to think inside that narrow mind of yours that these lands were willingly yielded by the people that resided in these lands. Unfortunately, this is not truth nor fact. The fact is this: These lands were taken by the French and the British as part of the spoils of WWI. The British gave the land of Palestine (now Israel) to the Jews. It belongs to them now plain and simple. But as Bill has pointed out in his post right after your last one, you Kalub, are obviously not interested in the truth or the facts. You are only interested in what your narrow mind allows you to be interested in. That’s really sad. Unfortunately, it’s because of this narrow mindedness and blind hatred most Arabs have, that a long term solution will never be arrived at.
Comment by Tony — 6/2/2004 @ 2:54 pm
Respond to Bill
um…….Bill, shut up, the reason why i said i dont care about the Ottoman Empire’s History, is because, we were talking about Palestine/Isreal in the first place, and somehow Turkey came in the middle.
so please mind ur self.
Comment by KALUB — 6/2/2004 @ 6:57 pm
Respond to Tony
The lands were split by the french and the british, not taken my friend, if they took them then they were lost, but they were split.
plus ur right i dont care, i mean u abviously beat me in these talks, cause ur a loser that researches all this crap.
Comment by KALUB — 6/2/2004 @ 7:03 pm
Respond to Tony
The lands were split by the french and the british, not taken my friend, if they took them then they were lost, but they were split.
plus ur right i dont care, i mean u abviously beat me in these talks, cause ur a loser that researches all this crap.
Comment by KALUB — 6/2/2004 @ 7:04 pm
” i mean u abviously beat me in these talks, cause ur a loser that researches all this crap.”
I’m a loser because I do research? I’m a loser because I listen, look and read? That’s funny you should call me a loser for doing these kind of things when in a previous post you said this:
“Most people dont see it on the news, and some just ignore it like you.”
It sounds to me like you believe that watching the news and doing research is important to you. (Unless of course it doesn’t conform to YOUR specific warped view on things.) Oh, and another thing:
“Isreal just rules the middle east with the help of my and your taxes”
You’re obviously not an adult as evidenced by your seemingly incessant dependence on information from your mom and dad. Exactly how much did YOU Kalub pay in taxes in 2003 on your W2 form?
And lastly:
“The lands were split by the french and the british, not taken my friend, if they took them then they were lost, but they were split.
How exactly was it that the French and the British got the authority to split a country up if they didn’t take it first? I already know your answer as you’ve already exposed your hateful insights to the Jews whether you admit it or not.
You KNOW if you have to admit the truth that these lands were taken and not willingly given up that the Jews have full right to Israel and in doing so also have the right to defend their own country. This is something you’ll never admit because you’re not mature enough to burst the bubble your parents have obviously skillfully crafted during your short lifetime. To admit anything else would mean that you would have to admit all your beliefs had been based on misinformation from your obviously predjudiced parents. Admitting that would require some real courage and maturity. Something you obviously haven’t attained yet at your young age.
Comment by Tony — 6/3/2004 @ 9:04 am
“and somehow Turkey came in the middle.”
SOME HOW???!!!….The very basis and crux of our conversation RELIES on Turkey / The Ottoman Empire
coming up! It is the sole basis of what I’ve been trying to get through your young thick skull! The sole reason there IS an Israel is due to the loss / split up / voluntary sucession (or whatever you want to call it) of The Ottoman Empire! Had this not happened, there wouldn’t even BE an Israel! Good god Kalub! If your going to argue at LEAST stick with the same argument!
Comment by Tony — 6/3/2004 @ 12:55 pm
no im not an Adult, im only 14
Comment by KALUB — 6/3/2004 @ 7:12 pm
and tony……..i think u are jewish
no none-jewish person, that knows whats goin on would say they have the right to that land
goodbye
Comment by KALUB — 6/3/2004 @ 7:15 pm
“and tony……..i think u are jewish
no none-jewish person, that knows whats goin on would say they have the right to that land
Kalub, you crack me up! How many Italian / Irish Jews do you know? The real problem you have is that YOU don’t know what’s going on. You’ve already demonstrated this in your posts and your rebuttal comments that have no basis in fact. You’re living in an uneducated child’s fantasy world that is being influenced by your predjudiced parents. Since you’re not an adult and don’t pay ANY taxes where do you come off complaining about what the government is doing “with the help of my and your taxes?”
Respond to my questions without making accusations or assumptions or shut up. You’ve already demonstrated that you don’t have the gonads (Gonads = balls in case you didn’t know) or brains to respond to anyone on these boards with any kind of intelligence or factual data. Run off now. I think I hear your mommy calling.
Comment by Tony — 6/4/2004 @ 12:43 pm
To Tony
I think Kalub means they are not lost countries like Spain,or Crimea (Ukraine),which are entirely lost to Islam.Otherwise it is obvious we lost them,I know no empires in history giving up land freely.
You said “it’s because of this narrow mindedness and blind hatred most Arabs have…” First of all you are putting all eggs in one basket by saying “most Arabs”,secondly,Türks are not Arabs,and neither Iranians nor Pakis.Arab became an insult in US as I can see from net or media,and that is very,very dangerous simply because it leads to an undying hatred against one,lets say,nation.I know it very well because the word Turk is used in the same way Americans use Arab by Greeks,Armenians and Serbians,which persuades most of their community (now I did the same mistake too)that we are barbarians who deserves annihilation.I even read some Greeks writing about nuking Türkiye,one opposed and said “we can not” but to my surprise and dissappointment,he continued “because we don’t have any nukes yet” That does not make Greeks my enemies,and must not make Arabs your enemies too.
And to this anti-jewish (antisemite) thing,you must believe Kalub when he says he is not antisemite,because traditionally Türkiye is a home and bunker for Jews,we had no bad experience with them,they are a very important and useful element of Türkish community,never discriminated or suspected,let alone hated.Only a few thousands of radicals hate all Jews,and blame them for everything bad happened for the last 5 millenias.Israel is not a popular country among my fellow citizens,for reasons obvious,and believe me when I say we see more than you do,but never in Türkish history anything that can be called as antisemitism happened.Indeed,racism is alien to us,it is essential for an empire building nation (although many thinks Türkish history=Ottomans,Türkiye is the 16th country we have founded,most of them were empires like Seljuks,Gök-Türks,Huns,Safavids,Mameluks etc.)
As a country like an empire in demograhical means,racism MUST be alien to you,too.
And dont be mean to a teenager.
Comment by Yucezat — 7/14/2004 @ 11:12 pm
Yucezat (11:12pm):
> Arab became an insult in US as I can see from net or media
I am a US citizen, not part of any of the ethnic groups brought up in this thread. “Arab” means “of a family that came from the Mideast or North Africa, Muslim or Christian, with a certain look (eg dark hair), self-identifies as Arab.”
This is not an insult in the circles I travel in, any more than are other somewhat imprecise descriptors like “Russian,” “Latino,” or “Chinese.”
Just so you know.
Comment by AMac — 7/15/2004 @ 7:38 am