Patterico's Pontifications

11/19/2021

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:15 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Let’s get started!

First News Item

A teacher’s op-ed about parental interference in their children’s education reminds me why I love the option of homeschooling. Her opening salvo is a direct shot across the bow of parenthood:

Part of the problem is that parents think they have the right to control teaching and learning because their children are the ones being educated. But it actually (gasp!) doesn’t work that way. It’s sort of like entering a surgical unit thinking you can interfere with an operation simply because the patient is your child.

You know who controls whether a child will have a suggested surgery? Parents. And when children have to have surgery and while not actually holding the scalpel, responsible parents nonetheless work to become as fully informed as possible about the whys and wherefores of said surgery. Beyond peppering the surgeon with questions, responsible parents read, talk to friends, colleagues, neighbors, and just about anyone who has had similar experiences. They pull up medical journals, log in to chat rooms about the subject, and learn about others’ experiences and the do’s and don’ts, and consume as much information and detail as possible before allowing their child to go under the knife. This is not unusual. This is is not interfering. This is not doing something one is not qualified to do. This is called responsible parenting.

Let’s look at one more statement from the op-ed:

Teaching, too, is a science. Unless they’re licensed and certified, parents aren’t qualified to make decisions about curricula. In fact, parental interference can actually hinder student advancement. An educator’s primary goal is to teach students to think. Parents who attempt to influence curricula with their personal opinions, ideologies, and biases hinder that goal.

In fact, many school districts across the nation have Parent Curriculum Review Committees and/or hold review sessions for parents to read and analyze suggested curricula and weigh in on the viability and appropriateness of said material, depending on the grade levels.

Moreover, the parents that I know consider teaching their children to think critically and independently one of their primary goals. I aspired to do the same when raising children. It’s sort of Parenting 101. But do you know what else can hinder student advancement? Teachers who have an obvious disdain and lack of respect for the parents of their students. Those students will pick up on it.

This writer paints a clear picture of why a lot of parents are angry with educators these days. Not all of the parents she holds in disdain are interfering nutjobs on a crusade to restrict reading lists and books in school libraries, or want to deny children learning about the experiences of little Ruby Bridges, or want teachers to whitewash the very dark and ugly moments in our history. To lump every angry parent into the same basket of interfering, unqualified irrelevancy is not doing teachers at large any favors. In fact, it’s simply confirming a lot of parents’ suspicions. But hey, if this clever teacher wants to campaign for more homeschooling, that’s on her. Also, this:

Second news item

To be expected:

Rep. Paul Gosar, who was censured by the House on Wednesday after he posted an anime video edited to show him killing Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, said on Twitter that he would “arm wrestle” Rep. Matt Gaetz in order to “get dibs for Kyle as an intern.”

Gaetz said on Wednesday that he was interested in hiring Rittenhouse as an intern. “He deserves a ‘not guilty’ verdict, and I sure hope he gets it, because you know what, Kyle Rittenhouse would probably make a pretty good congressional intern,” Gaetz said at the time. “We may reach out to him and see if he’d be interested in helping the country in additional ways.”

The kid should run far and wide.

Third news item

Positioning themselves:

Republican governors around the country have flashed streaks of independence based mainly on political calculations that they are better off giving priority to local issues and constitutional obligations.

As a result, about half of the 16 Republican governors up for re-election next year also face primary challenges from opponents endorsed by the former president or otherwise inspired by him.

The conflicts have highlighted divisions in the party—and among former Trump administration officials.

Fourth news item

Birds of a feather:

Fifth news item

The senators are correct. It’s 2021, c’mon man!:

The Times has published four separate pieces analyzing the style and dress of our colleague Senator Kyrsten Sinema. We cannot imagine The Times printing similar pieces on the fashion choices of any of our male colleagues.

As Senator Sinema recently said about the commentary on her fashion: “I wear what I want because I like it. It’s not a news story, and it’s no one’s business.” We couldn’t agree more.

Senator Sinema is a serious, hardworking member of the Senate who contributes a great deal to the policy deliberations before us. Your repeated focus on how she dresses, rather than what she says and does, is demeaning, sexist and inappropriate.

Susan Collins
Jeanne Shaheen
Lisa Murkowski
Washington

Sixth news item

Paging Sheriff Joe:

It appears that the President’s priority is not the people’s priority.

Seventh news item

Per John McWhorter, New York Times columnist, author, and Columbia University linguist:

“The people who are calling themselves black people saviors don’t understand this, but they’re hurting black people because what they’re caught up in is more about virtue signaling to one another than helping people who actually need help.”

His shortlist for what would most help black America? “There should be no war on drugs; society should get behind teaching everybody to read the right way; and we should make solid vocational training as easy to obtain as a college education.”

Eighth news item

I could almost get behind a boycott of this hotel group:

The Marriott hotel in Prague declined to host a conference of activists and leaders from China’s Uyghur diaspora this month, citing “political neutrality,” an email shared with Axios shows.

The Chinese government has condemned the World Uyghur Congress, which has attempted to rally global attention to the genocide in Xinjiang, China. The decision to reject the conference reflects China’s growing ability to extend authoritarian control beyond its borders by making clear to corporations that crossing the party’s red lines will be bad for business.

The World Uyghur Congress consists mainly of Uyghurs living in exile and advocates for the rights of those who remain in the Xinjiang region in western China, where upwards of one million people have been held in internment camps.

About 200 delegates from 25 countries gathered in Prague from Nov. 12-14 to elect the organization’s new leadership and hold discussions with politicians, academics and civil society representatives from around the world. The Prague Marriott Hotel declined to host the conference.

Melissa Froehlich Flood, Marriott’s senior vice president for global corporate communications, told Axios the hotel would be “contacting the group to apologize, as the hotel’s response was not consistent with our policies.”

Rejection letter to the group by Marriott:

“Thank you very much for your visit today. Unfortunately, I have to inform you that we are not able to offer the premises. We consulted the whole matter with our corporate management. For reasons of political neutrality, we cannot offer events of this type with a political theme. Thank you once again for your time and understanding.”

Uh, that’s not entirely accurate:

Marriott hotels frequently host political fundraisers and events.

The Marriott spokesperson clarified in a statement to Axios that hosting the conference would not have violated any “political neutrality” policy, and said the reference to “corporate management” in the email referred to “hotel-level management.”

Related:

Props:

Ninth news item

It’s happening:

Austria has imposed fresh lockdown measures on around 2 million unvaccinated people, with individuals facing fines if they fail to comply with the rules.

Those who are not fully vaccinated against Covid-19 have been back under lockdown since Monday, with federal police stopping people in public places to check their vaccination status.

Unvaccinated people who breach the lockdown rules face fines of up to 500 euros ($567), and anyone who refuses to comply with vaccination status checks could be fined 1,450 euros.

The fresh restrictions apply to everyone over the age of 12 who has not had two doses of the vaccine. People who have recently recovered from the virus are exempt from the restrictions.

Full proof of vaccination is required to visit public places like restaurants, hair salons and Christmas markets. In Vienna, children over the age of six will need to show a negative Covid test result to be permitted entry into these public places.

Have a good weekend!

–Dana

378 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Happy weekend!

    Dana (174549)

  2. The cancellation of the Uiygur Conference could be a sop to the Czech far right who might not want A and B to lead to C (resettlement in the Czech Republic)

    urbanleftbehind (c073c9)

  3. This gets a complementary though verboten deliberately misspelled meme of Denzel Washington from Training Day:

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/right-wingers-turn-on-glenn-youngkin-over-his-lgbtq-staffer-and-vaccine-rules

    urbanleftbehind (c073c9)

  4. Second news item
    The kid should run far and wide.

    Hopefully, he will understand that the two mealworms, Gaetz and Gosar, are just looking to exploit him because he has magnitudes of more cred nationwide than they do, and in fact they already have exploited him, and get a lawyer and an agent to negotiate a hefty celebrity endorsement fee.

    nk (1d9030)

  5. Hi Dana,

    Christina Wyman isn’t a middle school teacher, she’s an adjunct professor at Michigan state.

    Item 2: Kyle doesn’t seem very smart, which I suppose might make him a good intern for Matt Gaetz.

    Item 3: IDK, Governors races seem to be very much there own independent beast. How much do endorsements really matter?

    Item 4: Seems abt right.

    General for the Chinese issues: One of my concerns about Western Capitalism and China is that China has a lot of people who, while they don’t necessarily have all that much money individually, do have a great deal of money collectively and a government with very restrictive standards, so as the years go on, how much of our freedom of choice and creative freedom in the world outside China is likely to be stymied by the corporate desire to make a buck in China.

    Nic (896fdf)

  6. The Associated Press goofed:

    When the coronavirus first emerged last year, health officials feared the pandemic would sweep across Africa, killing millions. Although it’s still unclear what COVID-19’s ultimate toll will be, that catastrophic scenario has yet to materialize in Zimbabwe or much of the continent.

    Jazz Shaw at Hot Air followed them: “An African mystery: Where did COVID go?“>

    And both missed the obvious:

    Africa is a big continent, and the incidence of COVID varies greatly within it. Tunisia, for instance, has a death rate per million of 2113, very close to those in the United States and Mexico. South Africa (which the AP article does mention) has a death rate of 1,484, between those of Germany and France. Botswana (1000) and Eswatini (1061) have rates close to that in the Netherlands (1100), and so on.

    Are there patterns in the data? I think so.

    In general, the lowest rates are found in West Africa, in countries such as Nigeria (14), the Ivory Coast (26), and Ghana (38). The next lowest tend to be in East Africa, in countries such as Ethiopia (56) and Kenya (96)

    The lowest rates are in places with hot, humid climates. And that is consistent with what we have learned here in the United States — mostly the hard way — that the virus is most easily transmitted indoors, during cool weather. Which should inform our control efforts.

    (I am, of course, aware that the data could be better. But I think the patterns are strong enough to be seen through the noise.

    It would be interesting to see if a similar pattern can be found in South America.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  7. Hi nic,

    Former middle school teacher, per the report.

    Dana (1e9c06)

  8. @Dana@7 In the past yes, but describing her that way instead by her current job seemed inaccurate.

    Nic (896fdf)

  9. Kanter’s Celtics beat LeBaby’s Lakers by 22 tonight

    JF (e1156d)

  10. Item 2: Kyle doesn’t seem very smart, which I suppose might make him a good intern for Matt Gaetz.

    He was smart enough to only engage the people trying to kill him, and turn himself in peacefully in order to get a “not guilty” acquittal on self-defense. Sorry his acquittal bothers you so much.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  11. @5 kyle is easily smarter than the host of politicians, pundits and blog commenters emoting “anger and concern” and flat out lying about the facts of the case

    JF (e1156d)

  12. Not everyone on the left is upset with the ruling. The john brown gun clubs are loading their AK-47’s to protect the next BLM demonstration and may even attend a trump rally/riot and if they “feel” threatened. The anti gun corporate establishment DNC democrats have been discredited again? Time democrats flash an AK-47 instead of a peace sign.

    asset (a4a3a8)

  13. The john brown gun clubs are loading their AK-47’s to protect the next BLM demonstration and may even attend a trump rally/riot and if they “feel” threatened.

    LOL, your allies got clipped by a weepy, soft 17-year old who was in retreat mode or on his butt the entire time.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  14. BREAKING REPORT: Disney and other Florida-based businesses are “PAUSING THEIR COVID-19 VACCINE MANDATES and rehiring employees that were fired for refusing to “take the jab.”.

    It helps when the state supports freedom.

    Obudman (9e7773)

  15. “BREAKING REPORT”

    Here’s the source: https://twitter.com/ChuckCallesto/status/1461835823343718402

    Never heard of him, so I can’t assess if he’s a Posobiec or not, but there is a lone news article here:

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/disney-world-hits-pause-button-over-covid-19-vaccination-policies_4114397.html

    The article is based on “an internal memo obtained by The Epoch Times” that Disney won’t comment on. The article also says there’s no information about whether Disney will be rehiring, which contradicts the tweet.

    Davethulhu (ffac4e)

  16. Actually, Nic, a description of the author at the bottom of the report (which one assumes was provided by the author herself) says:

    Christina Wyman is the author of the forthcoming middle-grade novel “Jawbreaker.” She is a writer and teacher and lives in Lansing, Michigan, with her husband and their border collie, Frankie. Follow her on Twitter @CBWymanWriter

    Therefore, I’m comfortable describing her as a “teacher”.

    It’s interesting that that is what caught your eye about the post.

    Dana (174549)

  17. @WFO@10 The one of the troubles with tribalism is that people think that others who disagree with them on some things will disagree with them on everything and they themselves automatically disagree with everything that a person perceived to be not of their tribe says, even if they would normally agree.

    I’m not disturbed by the verdict. I have an IRL friend who is a prosecutor who was… not impressed… by the prosecution in the case.

    However, I do still think that a 17 year old who walks into a dangerous situation when he doesn’t know what he is doing is not very smart. I hope he learned that using a gun to defend yourself is not fun movie heroics.

    Nic (896fdf)

  18. @WFO@10 The one of the troubles with tribalism is that people think that others who disagree with them on some things will disagree with them on everything and they themselves automatically disagree with everything that a person perceived to be not of their tribe says, even if they would normally agree.

    You’re the one that slagged him, so don’t try and walk that back now.

    However, I do still think that a 17 year old who walks into a dangerous situation when he doesn’t know what he is doing is not very smart. I hope he learned that using a gun to defend yourself is not fun movie heroics.

    Nic (896fdf) — 11/19/2021 @ 9:58 pm

    If the Kenosha police and National Guard had 1/10 the balls that Kyle did, even as a “stupid” 17-year-old, perhaps Kenosha wouldn’t have burned for two days prior.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  19. Hopefully, he will understand that the two mealworms, Gaetz and Gosar, are just looking to exploit him because he has magnitudes of more cred nationwide than they do, and in fact they already have exploited him, and get a lawyer and an agent to negotiate a hefty celebrity endorsement fee.

    nk (1d9030) — 11/19/2021 @ 6:09 pm

    Exactly. That’s why I hope someone around him tells him to run far and wide. They’re grifters who spotted an easy mark (a teenager!). They’re despicable.

    Dana (174549)

  20. @Dana@16 Nobody likes to see somebody making their profession look bad. Other than that, I didn’t have much to say that you hadn’t already said. Parents have a right to have a say in their kid’s education, even if I disagree with them on what the student should be learning. If you want your kid out of family life or the unit on evolution or the unit on Islam, they come out and do an alternative assignment. I would encourage them to leave the student in and then teach their student their values in tandem with the school lessons, but regardless of that, if they want their kid out, their kid is out.

    Nic (896fdf)

  21. @FWO@18 One would hope that the police and national guard would know what they are doing and have proper training. And Rittenhouse is a kid who will have to live with all of what happened and will, hopefully, learn from it over time. He doesn’t need the far right making him a heroic symbol any more than he needs the far left making him a demon.

    I hope someone around him tells him to run far and wide. They’re grifters who spotted an easy mark

    Amen.

    Nic (896fdf)

  22. @17 the problem wasn’t the prosecution, but rather the facts of the case

    the infantile reactions from adults in positions of power should provoke “anger and concern”, yet admonishment is still reserved to the acquitted teen

    JF (e1156d)

  23. @FWO@18 One would hope that the police and national guard would know what they are doing and have proper training.

    I’ve heard this “proper training” refrain over and over in this comment section, and it’s as tedious as it is irrelevant. If they were doing their job, all those small businesses in Kenosha wouldn’t have been torched, and to be blunt, Kyle showed more restraint than, for example, those morons during the Dorner incident who unloaded their entire clips into the truck owned by those two women, or the police who ended up killing Elijah McClain.

    He doesn’t need the far right making him a heroic symbol any more than he needs the far left making him a demon.

    He doesn’t need it, but it doesn’t matter. Hollywood and sportsball morons, along with most of the news media Twitterati, are already crying the blues that they didn’t get their pound of flesh for their kiddie-raping, domestic abusing allies making the final dumb choice in their life that they’d ever make. Kyle’s going to be looking over his shoulder for years because these animals want to kill him.

    This case was about a lot more than just self-defense. This was about leftists being allowed to use mob violence to achieve their political goals, and whether or not other people can defend themselves and their property from them when the left uses that violence to intimidate into compliance through community destruction.

    The real scandal is that he was even prosecuted with murder 1 over this to begin with.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  24. As a result, about half of the 16 Republican governors up for re-election next year also face primary challenges from opponents endorsed by the former president or otherwise inspired by him.

    For my sins, I get email solicitations from nearly every Trumpist candidate. Not encouraged to see Trump further corrupting the party. I wonder if the GOP will go the way of the Canadian Progressive Conservative Party, which went from 211 seats (a majority) in 1984 to 2 seats in 1993.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  25. It appears that the President’s priority is not the people’s priority.

    It seems that all anyone wants is universal free Pre-K. Right? What’s good for the NEA is good for America.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  26. His shortlist for what would most help black America? “There should be no war on drugs; society should get behind teaching everybody to read the right way; and we should make solid vocational training as easy to obtain as a college education.”

    Free vocational training would beat the doors off of free Pre-K. Of course you need to be able to do stuff to teach a vocation. Teaching 3 year-olds only means you have to stay ahead of them in the lesson plan.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  27. It helps when the state supports freedom.

    Barring companies from requiring vaccines is just as bad as forcing then to require vaccines. Even though states are allowed to do the latter. I think every court asked has decided they cannot do the former.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  28. However, I do still think that a 17 year old … is not very smart.

    FIFY

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  29. When juries do what the mob demands we get things like the Scotsboro Boys.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  30. Will 2022 be the year that 2020 finally ends?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  31. Nic (896fdf) — 11/19/2021 @ 10:04 pm

    or the unit on Islam

    This is a public school? Why a unit on a religion? Does this unit accurately teach Islam’s history of slavery, repression of women, and widespread violence or is it supposed to foster diversity and inclusiveness?

    frosty (f27e97)

  32. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/19/2021 @ 11:02 pm

    I don’t think they’re equal sides of the same coin. Individual freedom is more important than whatever corporate freedom we’re talking about and saying “you can’t do a thing” isn’t as bad as “you must do a thing”.

    These are only equal to people who’ve lost perspective on anything related to covid.

    Practical example:

    Corp HR: You’ve got to disclose your personal medical information relating to your vaccine status. We may fire you or otherwise negatively effect your future if you don’t comply and give the correct answer.
    Employee: Isn’t this a possible HIPPA violation? Or at least a violation of my personal privacy?
    Corp HR: No. The government has told us we have to collect this and they can’t require us to do something that violates HIPPA (this isn’t the right answer but it’s an actual answer I’ve heard directly). It’s not a violation of your personal privacy. You can choose not to disclose and we will treat that as if you answered saying you would not get the vaccine.

    vs

    Employee: Can’t we do something about the people who won’t get the vaccine? At least keep them from coming into the office or something?
    Corp HR: No. The government has told us we can’t discriminate against people based on personal medical decisions. We shouldn’t even be collecting people’s personal information that isn’t required as part of their job.

    Once you’ve started down the road of rationalizing government overreach in order to keep us safe you’ve lost the plot. Especially when it’s this over broad and provides so little marginal safety.

    frosty (f27e97)

  33. https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-covid-lab-leak-theory-just-got-even-stronger

    True, the Laos virus lacked a critical feature in a key part of a key gene that makes Covid so infectious: a special 12-letter segment of genetic text called a furin cleavage site. It’s a feature that has never been seen in a Sars-like virus, except for Sars-CoV-2. Apart from that, it seemed that the Laotian virus might have knocked the burden of proof back across the philosophical net into the court of the proponents of lab-leak.

    Then last month a bunch of emails, uncovered by a lawsuit from the so-called White Coat Waste Project, returned the ball right back over the net. They comprised an exchange between the American virus–hunting foundation, the EcoHealth Alliance and its funders in the US government. The scientists discussed collecting viruses from bats in eight countries including Burma, Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos between 2016 and 2019. But to avoid the complication of signing up local subcontractors to their grants in those countries, they promised to send the samples to a laboratory they already funded. And where was this lab? Wuhan.

    And

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    THIS WEEK’S ISSUE
    20/11/2021
    20 NOV 2021
    Try a month of The Spectator for free.
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    Magazine: 20 November 2021
    Matt Ridley
    The Covid lab leak theory just got even stronger
    From magazine issue: 20 November 2021
    The Covid lab leak theory just got even stronger
    [Getty Images]
    Text
    Comments

    Two years in, there is no doubt the Covid pandemic began in the Chinese city of Wuhan. But there is also little doubt that the bat carrying the progenitor of the virus lived somewhere else.

    Central to the mystery of Covid’s origin is how a virus normally found in horseshoe bats in caves in the far south of China or south-east Asia turned up in a city a thousand miles north. New evidence suggests that part of the answer might lie in Laos.

    The search for viruses closely related to Sars-CoV-2 took a new turn in September when a team of French and Laotian scientists found one in a horseshoe bat living in a cave in the west Laotian province of Vientiane. Other related viruses had been found in Cambodia, Thailand, Japan and elsewhere in China, but this one, Banal-52, was different. For the first time since the pandemic began, this was a virus genetically closer to the human Sars-CoV-2 virus than one called RaTG13, collected in southern Yunnan in 2013. RaTG13, which had been stored for six years in a freezer in a lab in Wuhan itself, is genetically 96.1 per cent the same as Sars-CoV-2; Laos’s Banal-52 is 96.8 per cent.

    The discovery of Banal-52 was greeted with relief by champions of the theory that the virus must have jumped into people in a natural spillover event, not an accident inside a laboratory. If Covid’s closest cousins are flitting about in bats in south-east Asia, then that sample in the freezer in Wuhan looks less suspicious. ‘I am more convinced than ever that Sars-CoV-2 has a natural origin,’ said Linfa Wang of Duke-NUS Medical School in Singapore, a close collaborator of the Wuhan scientists.

    True, the Laos virus lacked a critical feature in a key part of a key gene that makes Covid so infectious: a special 12-letter segment of genetic text called a furin cleavage site. It’s a feature that has never been seen in a Sars-like virus, except for Sars-CoV-2. Apart from that, it seemed that the Laotian virus might have knocked the burden of proof back across the philosophical net into the court of the proponents of lab-leak.

    Then last month a bunch of emails, uncovered by a lawsuit from the so-called White Coat Waste Project, returned the ball right back over the net. They comprised an exchange between the American virus–hunting foundation, the EcoHealth Alliance and its funders in the US government. The scientists discussed collecting viruses from bats in eight countries including Burma, Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos between 2016 and 2019. But to avoid the complication of signing up local subcontractors to their grants in those countries, they promised to send the samples to a laboratory they already funded. And where was this lab? Wuhan.

    Some of the emails talk about sending data, not samples; but some talk repeatedly about sending actual samples. ‘All samples collected would be tested at the Wuhan Institute of Virology,’ reads one from 2016. Another in 2018 even talks of sending bats themselves. The emails make it clear that Wuhan scientists would sometimes be working in the field alongside their US colleagues.

    Remember the central issue is how a bat virus got to Wuhan. So now, in both Yunnan and Laos, the only people who knowingly transported bat virus samples to Wuhan — and only to Wuhan — were scientists. Gilles Demaneuf, a New Zealand-based data scientist who’s been analysing this issue, says the natural spillover theory has ‘no explanation for why this would result in an outbreak in Wuhan of all places, and nowhere else’.

    As for that missing furin cleavage site, another leaked document revealed in September by Drastic, a confederation of open-source analysts like Demaneuf, sent shock- waves through the scientific community. Dr Peter Daszak, head of the EcoHealth Alliance, spelled out plans to work with his collaborators in Wuhan and elsewhere to artificially insert novel, rare cleavage sites into novel Sars-like coronaviruses collected in the field, so as to better understand the biological function of cleavage sites. His 2018 request for $14.2 million from the Pentagon to do this was turned down amid uneasiness that it was too risky; but the very fact that he was proposing it was alarming.

    Most of the funding for the Wuhan Institute of Virology comes from the Chinese not the American government, after all; so the failure to win the US grant may not have prevented the work being done. More-over, exactly such an experiment had already been done with a different kind of coronavirus by — guess who? — the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  34. Sorry for the formatting.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  35. Once you’ve started down the road of rationalizing government overreach in order to keep us safe you’ve lost the plot. Especially when it’s this over broad and provides so little marginal safety.

    frosty (f27e97) — 11/20/2021 @ 4:22 am

    We’ve let an unnecessary, leviathan-like airport security bureaucracy stay in place for 20 years now, to the point that the left gleefully embraced it and told people to “shut up and be scanned” when they were finally in charge of the beast. All that’s been proven since 9/11 is that there isn’t anything that Boomers and Gen-Xers, regardless of their political leanings, won’t submit to when they’re scared or use it to increase their power-tripping dopamine hits.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  36. I thought “they” were in charge of TSA from day 1, expressed through provocative hiring practices i.e. Somalis at MSP and Arabs at MDW and DTW. Only recently and grudgingly unionizing, Max Cleland couldn’t see it all the way through.

    urbanleftbehind (c073c9)

  37. #33 – Here’s the Wikipedia article on fair use, which explains, in general terms, how much of a copyrighted article you can copy, without permission.

    (My own general rule is no more than two or three short paragraphs from a column or news article. If the material is not behind a paywall, then I often use even less, and provide the link.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  38. We cannot imagine The Times printing similar pieces on the fashion choices of any of our male colleagues.

    Maybe, but also maybe not. I recall that the media always commented on former Sen. Paul Simon’s predilection for wearing bow ties, and they never failed to mention that former Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell made and wore his own bolo ties. I think the main issue is just that men’s business fashion is infinitely more boring than women’s.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  39. My guess is Wuhan lab workers do their shopping in the Wuhan market. Crowded Asian markets are wonderful places for exchanging viruses.

    I read an article the other day that delved into the question of why COVID did not effect Africa.
    https://www.newsweek.com/covid-vax-rates-africa-are-low-region-avoids-worst-leaving-scientists-baffled-1651375

    Africa has a vaccination rate of 6% and no massive COVID problem. South Africa with its large European and Indian populations is by far the worst country in Africa for COVID

    “Researchers think the lower number of cases could be due to the[African] population being younger—the average age being 20—or their lower rates of urbanization and longer time spent outdoors. Others think it could have something to do with prior infections with other diseases or the fact that people across the continent are more used to dealing with outbreaks even without vaccines.

    In the AP report, researchers in Uganda said Friday that they found COVID-19 patients who had previously been exposed to malaria were less likely to show severe symptoms or die.”

    The Wall Street Journal has a countering article entitled: Inside the Worlds Most Blatant COVID 19 Cover-up that sounds interesting but its behind their paywall
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-coronavirus-coverup-tanzania-11636042309

    steveg (e81d76)

  40. I’m sure they’ve all commented on Jerry Nadlers pants, and some have even indulged in speculation about what might be in those pants.

    steveg (e81d76)

  41. I think so too, JVW, but I also know that female public figures (in all walks of life, not just politics), have always faced more sartorial scrutiny than male public figures. And with that comes a level of cruelty, judgment, and ridicule that their male counterparts escape. It also serves to diminish or take the focus off of their professional accomplishments, as it did with Sinema.

    Dana (174549)

  42. steveg – May I suggest you read my comment at #6? For example: “Tunisia, for instance, has a death rate per million of 2113, very close to those in the United States and Mexico. South Africa (which the AP article does mention) has a death rate of 1,484.”

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  43. Mike Flynn won’t like this cartoon.

    (Do I consider it fair? Barely, but I give cartoons more leeway than texts.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  44. I remember Mike Royko doing a satirical column on it around 50 years ago. Things like “Mayor Richard J. Daley, looking dapper in a blue suit, white shirt, and red tie, was asked how he coped being both Mayor and a father”, etc. in that vein.

    nk (1d9030)

  45. Dana – Professor Joyner disagrees with you on Sinema’s clothes.

    (Me? After I failed the “Does this dress make me look fat” test many years ago, I decided to avoid any critical commentary on women’s clothing.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  46. Dana – I should add that I agree with your general point. For years I have noticed that if you want to insult a man, you call him a coward, and if you want to insult a woman, you criticize her looks.

    Both are — usually — unfair.

    And while we are on the subject, I am sure you have noticed that cartoonists mock the way Trump wears his ties. (And that does make me wonder.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  47. @frosty@31 It’s in a world history class. The unit talks about the rise and spread of the Caliphate in the 7th-13th centuries.

    Nic (896fdf)

  48. Frosty (at 32)

    I know this bugs you and you want to deny this, but as a matter of law, OSHA mandates have always trumped the right to medical privacy established by HIPAA. That’s the way the law was written and how it was administered when COVID was a gleam in some Chinese scientist’s eye.

    Appalled (a6890b)

  49. Jim,

    It was a copy paste error from a phone. Hence the apology.

    Your concern is noted.

    NJRob (f832f8)

  50. Most American men could learn from this New Yorker cartoon.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  51. On Sinema’s clothes:
    1. It’s true that women generally get harsher and crueler judgment on appearance than men do — unless they’re greatly blessed in appearance, in which case they get undo credit for it, and any other merits or demerits are a distant second — unless the women are hated for partisan (or other) reasons, in which case their fortunate looks get them tagged as bimbos, which also in unfair.

    2. It’s true that women tend to get more scrutiny for clothing choices than men, which is partly because women’s clothing options, by convention, or broader than men’s, so there’s more room for nitpicking. There is also a wider range of opinion on what is in good taste.

    3. “Wear what you like and what makes you feel good” is not a bad principle in some circumstances, and within limits. I wear things that make me feel good even when I’m not going anywhere–but that means I tend to dress better at home than most people do! But if clothing choice is a form of self-expression, it is also a means of self-representation. It is not unreasonable for other people to make judgments about you according to how you choose to dress.

    4. “Wear what you like” should always be qualified by what is commonly regarded as appropriate to the circumstances. A little bit of fashion risk is okay, or a lot, in some circumstances. Presiding over the Senate in a denim vest, or wearing juvenile-looking clothes on official duty as a senator, is self-indulgent and disrespectful of what should be a serious institution. It’s basically a way of inviting people to comment on one’s clothing.

    5. Perhaps Sinema is merely dressing for herself, or perhaps she is seeking attention. In her official capacity, the first is an insufficient rule, and the second is an inappropriate motive, and criticism should not be unexpected.

    6. Anyone who is overly focused on Sinema’s clothing should dial it back. If she’s seeking attention sartorially, don’t give her so much of it. In any case, the subject of her clothing should not dominate the conversation. (Which might sound ironic in view of the length of my comment.)

    Radegunda (3ac874)

  52. Last night in portland the antifa john brown gun club with AK-47’s and AR-15’s were protecting demonstrators. It begins.

    asset (2f4a57)

  53. I went ahead and read Christina Wyman’s OpEd, and though she never stated it as part of her thinking, every condescending bit of it was telling us that she also disapproved of parents having the right to send their children to private schools or home school them.

    This is how Our Betters think.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (338514)

  54. Those who are not fully vaccinated against Covid-19 have been back under lockdown since Monday, with federal police stopping people in public places to check their vaccination status.

    Wir müssen Ihre Dokumente sehen!

    Sounds so much better in the original German. Remember: millions of Austrians cheered and welcomed their Anschluss with the Third Reich!

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (338514)

  55. I don’t think they’re equal sides of the same coin. Individual freedom is more important than whatever corporate freedom we’re talking about and saying “you can’t do a thing” isn’t as bad as “you must do a thing”.

    One is the STATE telling companies they cannot protect their workers as they see fit, the other is a less-inclusive private employer speaking only to those who work there. You are right, they are not the same, but you have the direction wrong.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  56. There’s a delicious irony that Senatrix Sinema’s sartorial selections are being criticized by the left, and her right to privacy defended by conservatives. :)

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (338514)

  57. And even then, what the company demands is subject to outside limitations on safety and applicability. The company could not make employees swill bleach, for example. Nor can it override what their employee’s doctors say.

    But when the state issues a blanket order barring companies from taking the scientifically-sound and recommended action because politicians have an axe to grind about who “really won” the last election, the shark is jumping you.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  58. My guess is Wuhan lab workers do their shopping in the Wuhan market. Crowded Asian markets are wonderful places for releasing viruses

    FIFY

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  59. Joe starts his 80th year on Earth today.

    Xi grinned… and Putin smiled.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  60. I went ahead and read Christina Wyman’s OpEd, and though she never stated it as part of her thinking, every condescending bit of it was telling us that she also disapproved of parents having the right to send their children to private schools or home school them.

    Children should be delivered to the state’s communal child-rearing center at the age of 3 and picked up again at 14, at which point the parents are responsible for their actions.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  61. Appalled (a6890b) — 11/20/2021 @ 10:27 am

    It looks like you didn’t understand

    this isn’t the right answer but it’s an actual answer I’ve heard directly

    but hey, it’s easier to work with your bias and have the argument you want to have right?

    I’m not saying HIPPA even applies and I didn’t mention the OSHA mandate because the conversation I’m referencing didn’t involve the OSHA ruling. The right answer would be correct instead of “it’s right because POTUS issued an order telling us to do it” which just happens to be the truthful answer.

    frosty (f27e97)

  62. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/20/2021 @ 1:36 pm

    One is the STATE telling companies they cannot protect their workers as they see fit

    Now apply this to any other issue. As soon as you do it falls apart. You’re extending “protect them from work hazards” to “keep them safe in general”.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/20/2021 @ 1:40 pm

    The company could not make employees swill bleach

    You’ve picked a nice strawman. Now try, companies can “protect their workers as they see fit” with dietary restrictions or demand they never smoke or drink or only have two children or not have firearms in their home.

    Employees aren’t “their workers”. They aren’t property. Does it occur to you that this is the same language farmers use for their livestock and slaver owners used for slaves?

    frosty (f27e97)

  63. There’s a delicious irony that Senatrix Sinema’s sartorial selections are being criticized by the left, and her right to privacy defended by conservatives.

    Who is attacking her “right to privacy”? She can do what she wants privately. She can also dress how she wants in public. But she has no right to be protected from any criticism of how she presents herself in the capacity of a U.S. senator. That is a public function.

    And it isn’t as if conservatives would never, ever criticize the way their political enemies dress. I remember a lot of vitriol thrown at Michelle Obama over her clothes and her appearance (quite apart from her politics). There was actually a blog dedicated primarily to picking apart what she wore and how she looked. Then, conservatives went on to gush over Melania, as if glamorous looks made her some kind of hero.

    Radegunda (3ac874)

  64. Tammy Baldwin is another deranged leftist politician whose delusional hot take on the Rittenhouse verdict should disqualify her from all future discussions regarding the direction of our nation.

    NJRob (42e1d5)

  65. “Now try, companies can “protect their workers as they see fit” with dietary restrictions or demand they never smoke or drink or only have two children or not have firearms in their home.”

    In general, companies can 100% fire employees for any of these reasons. An exception is liberal hell-hole California.

    Davethulhu (ffac4e)

  66. The Washington Post is pro-nuclear, even in California:

    In 2018, California’s leaders decided to close the state’s last nuclear power plant, at Diablo Canyon, by 2025. Several months later, they approved a bill obligating the state to be carbon-neutral by 2045. These acts of feel-good environmentalism were, in fact, contradictory. If the state is serious about achieving carbon neutrality over the next few decades — and it should be — it cannot start by shutting down a source of emissions-free energy that accounts for nearly 10 percent of its in-state electricity production.

    Following the science, the Post links to a report from MIT and Stanford.

    And they mention an advantage to the Diablo site that I hadn’t seen before: A desalination plant there would provide fresh water at “half the cost of other California desalination plants”.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  67. Employers should not have to hire Typhoid Marys who kill off their customers just so some jerkoff politician can get votes from inbred dolts and $10 million plus from post-infection treatment profiteers.

    nk (1d9030)

  68. As for Senator, I also think there’s too much fuss about the way she dresses. I’d like her even if she wore nothing at all.

    nk (1d9030)

  69. Who is attacking her “right to privacy”? She can do what she wants privately.

    I believe that the right to privacy refers to the left-wing activists who followed her into the bathroom and filmed themselves hectoring her.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  70. Senator Sinema

    nk (1d9030)

  71. The risk of developing acute coronary syndrome (ACS) significantly increased in patients after receiving mRNA COVID-19 vaccines, according to a report presented at the American Heart Association (AHA) Scientific Sessions 2021, held from November 13 to 15, 2021.

    The study included 566 men and women (1:1) aged 28-97 years, who were patients in a preventive cardiology practice. All patients received a new PULS Cardiac Test 2-10 weeks after their second COVID-19 vaccine. This test result was compared with a PULS score from 3-5 months prevaccination. The PULS Cardiac Test measures multiple protein biomarkers, including hepatocyte growth factor [HGF], soluble Fas, and IL-16, and uses the results to calculate a 5-year risk score for new ACS. The PULS score increases with above-normal elevation. All participants received this test every 3-6 months for 8 years.

    From prevaccination to postvaccination, the levels of IL-16 increased from 35=/-20 to 82=/-75 above the norm. Soluble Fas showed an increase from 22±15 to 46=/-24 above the norm. HGF rose from 42±12 to 86±31 above the norm. As a result, the 5-year ACS PULS risk score increased from 11% to 25%. By the time the report was published, changes had persisted for 2.5 months or more after the second vaccine dose.

    https://www.thecardiologyadvisor.com/home/topics/acs/acute-coronary-syndrome-acs-biomarkers-mrna-covid19-vaccine/

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  72. Here is the version on the AHA Journals website (emphasis mine):

    Abstract 10712: Mrna COVID Vaccines Dramatically Increase Endothelial Inflammatory Markers and ACS Risk as Measured by the PULS Cardiac Test: a Warning
    Steven R Gundry
    Originally published8 Nov 2021Circulation. 2021;144:A10712
    Abstract
    Our group has been using the PLUS Cardiac Test (GD Biosciences, Inc, Irvine, CA) a clinically validated measurement of multiple protein biomarkers which generates a score predicting the 5 yr risk (percentage chance) of a new Acute Coronary Syndrome (ACS). The score is based on changes from the norm of multiple protein biomarkers including IL-16, a proinflammatory cytokine, soluble Fas, an inducer of apoptosis, and Hepatocyte Growth Factor (HGF)which serves as a marker for chemotaxis of T-cells into epithelium and cardiac tissue, among other markers. Elevation above the norm increases the PULS score, while decreases below the norm lowers the PULS score.The score has been measured every 3-6 months in our patient population for 8 years. Recently, with the advent of the mRNA COVID 19 vaccines (vac) by Moderna and Pfizer, dramatic changes in the PULS score became apparent in most patients.This report summarizes those results. A total of 566 pts, aged 28 to 97, M:F ratio 1:1 seen in a preventive cardiology practice had a new PULS test drawn from 2 to 10 weeks following the 2nd COVID shot and was compared to the previous PULS score drawn 3 to 5 months previously pre- shot. Baseline IL-16 increased from 35=/-20 above the norm to 82 =/- 75 above the norm post-vac; sFas increased from 22+/- 15 above the norm to 46=/-24 above the norm post-vac; HGF increased from 42+/-12 above the norm to 86+/-31 above the norm post-vac. These changes resulted in an increase of the PULS score from 11% 5 yr ACS risk to 25% 5 yr ACS risk. At the time of this report, these changes persist for at least 2.5 months post second dose of vac.

    We conclude that the mRNA vacs dramatically increase inflammation on the endothelium and T cell infiltration of cardiac muscle and may account for the observations of increased thrombosis, cardiomyopathy, and other vascular events following vaccination.

    https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circ.144.suppl_1.10712

    Seems worthy of further research, IMO. Especially considering that the FDA approval for the yet unavailable Comarity MRNA injection was riddled with demands for further study on heart damage.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  73. My mistake, the unavailable approved MRNA injection is called COMIRNATY, which, for all intents and purposes, is functionally the same as the EUA injection.

    Here is the FDA approval letter that outlines years of future studies for heart damage:

    https://www.fda.gov/media/151710/download

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  74. BuDuh (4a7846) — 11/20/2021 @ 4:03 pm BuDuh (4a7846) — 11/20/2021 @ 4:14 pm BuDuh (4a7846) — 11/20/2021 @ 4:19 pm

    Thank you for your industry.

    felipe (484255)

  75. Speaking of the defendant testifying on his own behalf and being cleared of murder charges because of self-defense, Mr. Coffee was also acquitted, except he still got nailed for illegal gun possession, and he has a felony record.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  76. What is this? NSFW!

    felipe (484255)

  77. Not sure why my post is in moderation, is “idiot” a banned word?

    Davethulhu (ffac4e)

  78. Lin Wood, an attorney for Republican former President Donald Trump, has threatened to sue Kyle Rittenhouse’s attorney, Mark Richards, for calling him an “idiot.”

    “You know, Lin Wood and I went head-to-head and, you know, he’ll probably sue me for it, but he’s an idiot who let (Rittenhouse) talk to The Washington Post while he was under charges for murder. I mean, come on,” Richards said in a Friday CNN interview.

    In the interview, Richards also accused Wood and fellow attorney John Pierce of “trying to wh*re this kid out for money, for their own causes,” adding that the attorneys were “raising tons of money on him.”

    In response, Wood wrote an email to Richards stating, “You publicly stated in an interview on CNN that I was an idiot. False, I am not.”

    https://www.newsweek.com/i-am-not-trump-lawyer-lin-wood-threatens-sue-rittenhouse-lawyer-calling-him-idiot-1651658

    I figured it out.

    Davethulhu (ffac4e)

  79. Lol that’s great

    Dustin (a145cf)

  80. Davethulhu (ffac4e) — 11/20/2021 @ 2:53 pm

    Not surprised your down with the corporate fascism. I’d like to see Kevin M apply his general rule of “keeping their workers safe” to all of the situations it can be applied to in the same broad fashion as the covid vaccination requirements. I don’t think it’s a rule most people would apply outside of the covid situation. Given Kevin M’s position on other topics it’s not something I’d expect him to embrace beyond covid.

    By the way; for the I don’t really want mandates and there should be exceptions for valid reasons crowd, my direct experience is that valid exceptions aren’t much of a thing and these are basically mandates. For the valid scientific justification crowd, is there any data behind the CDC shift from not recommended to recommended for people with autoimmune disorders? I personally know of more than one person who’s doctor originally said don’t get vaccinated based on your medical condition and then got a different story later with no real data to explain the change. It’s hard to maintain that you’re a conservative and value individual liberty and also support corporations controlling people based on government “guidelines”.

    nk (1d9030) — 11/20/2021 @ 3:23 pm

    Unvaccinated doesn’t mean Typhoid Marys. I’m not sure why people capable of constructing a simple sentence believe this nonsense or think anyone else does.

    frosty (f27e97)

  81. More Kanter…

    Tennis champion Peng Shuai took to social media earlier this month to accuse a former top-ranking official in the Chinese Communist Party of sexually assaulting her. Within 30 minutes the post was scrubbed from the internet in China. She disappeared and no one has heard directly from her since.

    For decades, Western athletes, celebrities and corporations have diligently kept silent in the face of Chinese human-rights violations. International hotel chains, airlines, apparel brands, sports leagues and Hollywood studios have steered away from “sensitive topics” such as Tibet’s independence, the Uyghur genocide, Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement and Taiwan’s sovereignty.

    The sports community must wake up—and speak up. We need to realize that the authoritarian Chinese government isn’t our friend. The Communist Party is a brutal dictatorship that has weaponized economic power to achieve ideological and political compliance.

    God bless Enes, but more important than that, his message pure truth. It shouldn’t just be a smattering of athletes standing up to this regime.
    More Dispatch…

    In 2018, in the tiny northern Italian hamlet of Pordenone, a company known as Alpi Aviation SRL—a maker of light aircraft and mini-drones used by the Italian military in Afghanistan—was taken over by a new Hong Kong company named Mars Information Technology. That’s when the story, reported recently by the Wall Street Journal, gets interesting. Mars, Italian investigators have concluded, was a front company for two Chinese state and local government-owned firms, China Railway Rolling Stock Corp., or CRRC, and “an investment group controlled by the municipal government of Wuxi, a city near Shanghai.” What does a railway stock company and a local investment group want with an Italian drone maker?

    The same thing the Chinese government wants all over Europe, Africa, the Middle East, Latin America, and, most importantly perhaps, the United States: artificial intelligence technology, military technology and advanced avionics, surveillance equipment, energy supplies, and more. You name it, Beijing wants it, wants to own it, and much of the time, doesn’t want you to be sure exactly who is using it and what for.

    Back to little Alpi. Italian authorities believe the Chinese buyers substantially overpaid for their majority stake in the firm. And a year after its first investment, the now Chinese-owned Alpi transferred a military drone to the PRC, lying on the shipping manifest about both the product (which was not a “radio-controlled airplane model”) and its destination (apparently not an import fair in Shanghai).

    By itself, this drone, capable as it may be, is not going to shift the global balance of power. But multiply the Alpi story thousands of times over, and an already well-known but largely unmanaged problem becomes slightly more visible. And for the curious—why can’t China build its own damn drones? Well, it can. But communism does not drive innovation the way free societies do; and why do the work if you can steal or buy it from someone else.

    Until the US adopts a more confrontational stance, there’s not much we can do except check the tags and pass on anything “Made in China”.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  82. Especially after the way the WuFlu landed on our shores and how the ChiComs lied and obstructed about it.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  83. Until the US adopts a more confrontational stance, there’s not much we can do except check the tags and pass on anything “Made in China”.

    81 million voters prefer China Love:

    How Hunter Biden’s Firm Helped Secure Cobalt for the Chinese
    The president’s son was part owner of a venture involved in the $3.8 billion purchase by a Chinese conglomerate of one of the world’s largest cobalt deposits. The metal is a key ingredient in batteries for electric vehicles.

    An investment firm where Hunter Biden, the president’s son, was a founding board member helped facilitate a Chinese company’s purchase from an American company of one of the world’s richest cobalt mines, located in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/20/world/hunter-biden-china-cobalt.html

    NYT appears to have “broken” the story, but it is paywalled. Search “Hunter Biden Cobalt” for other sources.

    My bet is that this story was probably already “broken” by tin-foil hat sites prior to the election, but scrubbers be scrubbing.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  84. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/21/2021 @ 6:51 am

    was a front company for two Chinese state and local government-owned firms

    This can be said for basically any company in China and especially any company dealing outside the country.

    why can’t China build its own damn drones? Well, it can

    This is less true than most people think. China can steal and then replicate tech. They are severely hampered in areas of basic research. Sometimes they can do it but it costs more and takes more time than in most western countries. It took them at least 5 years and who knows how much money to replicate the tech to make ball point pen tips. And I still don’t think they’ve rolled it into production. I think they are still struggling with the jet engines in that knew stealth fighter. If the US, and other countries, had better counter-intelligence a lot of this would dry up.

    Even with the WuFlu I suspect that lab was working with, and most of the direction was coming from, researchers in the US.

    The safe bet is to start planning for the coming collapse of China. They won’t get the lost decades that Japan landed on.

    frosty (f27e97)

  85. BuDuh (4a7846) — 11/21/2021 @ 7:06 am

    My bet is that this story was probably already “broken” by tin-foil hat sites prior to the election, but scrubbers be scrubbing.

    It’s odd. It was 4 years of emoluments clause because the SS stayed at Trump hotels but Biden’s family business is smothered under a heavy blanket so no one has the go to the trouble of explaining the hypocrisy and double standards. Not to mention the treason.

    frosty (f27e97)

  86. Trump paid almost $200k in taxes to the ChiComs for his business ventures there, which is typical Trump, but Hunter’s involvement in helping the Xi regime secure cobalt was geostrategically un-American. Hunter’s dad had to know about this, and he needs to answer some pointed questions.
    It’s not just cobalt but where China has a competitive advantage over us, they control way too many other rare earths that go into our high-tech products, and this affects our national security.
    A real infrastructure bill would allocate monies and incentives to explore and develop a domestic or North American supply, not unlike what we have with our oil resources.
    It’s too bad Biden’s company didn’t go all in on Evergrande. It would’ve been more fitting for this loser.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  87. Here is a thread explaining nothing to the 74 million voters:

    https://twitter.com/DrewHolden360/status/1461774470113280009

    Maybe the 81 million will take a peek and wonder what that have done.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  88. There lots of things Biden can do here. The first is join the TPP, which would encourage our American companies to do business with Pacific Rim nations that aren’t communist China. And two, this is a little thing but has good symbolism: No more Chinese students coming here for STEM college classes and degrees. They can take liberal arts classes and pursue liberal arts degrees only, so that maybe we can export some liberalism there (Rush Limbaugh suggested that we export liberalism to Japan to level the competitive playing field, back when he was a clear-headed conservative and not strung out on oxy).

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  89. Do you expect Biden to do any of that?

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  90. BuDuh (4a7846) — 11/21/2021 @ 7:50 am

    Like I’ve said before, the defining trait of today’s socio-political elites and the Squealer lapdogs, is arrogance fueled by stupidity. Anyone who saw the streams and videos from that night who possessed a scintilla of objectivity would have seen that Rittenhouse had as perfect a case of self-defense as anyone could have made.

    These lunatics literally don’t know ANYTHING that they didn’t see on Twitter first, and their Gilded Age relationship with Big Tech ensures that any narrative they want gets signal-boosted in to orbit without a care in the world for whether it’s accurate or not. And they’re supported in this endeavor by nearly every university and celebrity institution from Hollywood to professional sports, along with most of America’s corporations and even the US military.

    The irony is that these morons all think they’re District 13, because the leftist mindset demands that they’re always the put-upon underdog, when in reality they’re the Capital and exploiting the rest of us in order to maintain their selfish decadence.

    Simply put, this is not a society that is in any way sustainable, and I doubt even a Pearl Harbor-style attack would even bring the country together, because half the country would see where it happened and likely declare, “Eh, no big loss.” At some point, the scales are going to drop from the eyes of a lot of people, and we’re going to have to look at getting a national divorce enacted before something worse takes place. If we even make it through the decade, I’ll be very surprised.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  91. Paul Montagu @ 82,

    The crux of the matter is that no one is willing to risk, let alone lose their lucrative deals with China by confronting the thugs. Perhaps, though, more will follow this example:

    The head of the Women’s Tennis Association (WTA) Steve Simon has said he is willing to lose hundreds of millions of dollars worth of business in China if Peng is not fully accounted for and her allegations are not properly investigated.

    “We’re definitely willing to pull our business and deal with all the complications that come with it,” Simon said in an interview Thursday with CNN. “Because this is certainly, this is bigger than the business,” added Simon.

    “Women need to be respected and not censored,” said Simon.

    Dana (174549)

  92. Do you expect Biden to do any of that?

    I expect Biden to do as I predicted, which is to muddle through his term.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  93. “Not surprised your down with the corporate fascism. ”

    I don’t know where you get that I approve of at-will employment, but that’s the world we live in. Once again I am sorry that you are just discovering this now.

    Davethulhu (ffac4e)

  94. You’ve picked a nice strawman. Now try, companies can “protect their workers as they see fit” with dietary restrictions or demand they never smoke or drink or only have two children or not have firearms in their home.

    In about half the states, companies can (and some do) require employees to refrain from tobacco and alcohol even off-work. They claim it allows lower health-care costs. I’m not a fan, but they DO this and it is legal. The guns-in-the-home thing touched upon an enumerated right of the people, so it’s not the same thing at all.

    https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-i-denied-employment-smoking.html

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  95. Hero Steve Simon had no problem signing the lucrative deals with the atrocity committing Commies in the first place. The media not being able to hide this is the only motivation.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  96. “Muddled” makes me think that you think Biden has not made things significantly worse. Is that correct?

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  97. In general, companies can 100% fire employees for any of these reasons. An exception is liberal hell-hole California.

    You can be fired for consuming tobacco, alcohol or other substances, even at home, in the state of California.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  98. In response, Wood wrote an email to Richards stating, “You publicly stated in an interview on CNN that I was an idiot. False, I am not.”

    As a measure of IQ, “idiot” is someone who has an IQ of 0-25, and Lin Wood may be able to prove that. “Moron” (IQ 50-75) would have been a safer choice.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  99. You can be fired for consuming tobacco, alcohol or other substances, even at home, in the state of California.

    You can be EVICTED for smoking tobacco in a rental unit in CA. But possibly not “medical” marijuana.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  100. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/21/2021 @ 8:26 am

    So, we’ve established can. How about should?

    I’m not a fan, but they DO this and it is legal.

    It’s easy to evade with this approach. Again, when this comes up the counter-examples to a situation the involves almost every employee at virtually every company is compared to one-off examples involving a few companies and a relatively small number of employees.

    In about half the states, companies can (and some do) require employees to refrain from tobacco and alcohol even off-work.

    Do you have examples of this because I’m not familiar with the actual numbers here. It’s half the states allow it and some companies do required employees to refrain from tobacco and alcohol even off-work? I’d be interested in which states and companies because a) this is wrong and I don’t think the few examples that might exist justify it and b) I don’t think this is very common.

    frosty (f27e97)

  101. @kevin, some employees even get fired for who they Mary.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  102. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/21/2021 @ 8:29 am

    You can be fired for consuming tobacco, alcohol or other substances, even at home, in the state of California.

    I’ve worked for a California based company and this was never mentioned. While working for that company I knew multiple other employees that smoked and took frequent smoke breaks.

    I personally don’t smoke but it was never something that was mentioned. But there was never anything from the company about smoke breaks and certainly not about being fired for smoking on personal time.

    frosty (f27e97)

  103. An employer may not discharge an employee simply because they are a smoker. For example, let’s imagine an employer who is adamantly against smoking and then learns that one of their employees is a smoker. The employer then decides to fire this employee simply because he or she is a smoker. The employee did nothing unlawful, and in the state of California, an employer may not terminate an employee for taking part in legal activity outside of the workday. Since smoking is legal in California, an employer cannot dismiss you from your position.

    https://www.losangelesemploymentattorney.org/can-i-be-fired-for-smoking/

    Davethulhu (ffac4e)

  104. Channel 7 ABC Eyewitness News – Los Angeles County identifies COVID-19 hot spots, but most have high vaccination rates

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/los-angeles-county-identifies-covid-19-hot-spots-but-most-have-high-vaccination-rates/ar-AAQV682

    Obudman (0d5408)

  105. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/21/2021 @ 8:44 am

    If it’s legal then it’s ok and if if’s for safety then it’s also morally correct. At least according to the “it’s legal” and “worker safety” analysis we’re now seeing so much of.

    frosty (3cc40d)

  106. oh good, we’re back to businesses can do what they like, or no they can’t

    who knows

    what day is it?

    can a business refuse to bake a cake for a covid superspreader party?

    JF (e1156d)

  107. I’ve worked for a California based company and this was never mentioned. While working for that company I knew multiple other employees that smoked and took frequent smoke breaks.

    I can’t decide if you are intentionally misunderstanding or just not as quick today. It is legal for a company to ban all smokers from employment. Few do, but it IS legal. The response was both to you and ‘thulhu, who seemed to think that CA was a bastion of righteousness.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  108. “Muddled” makes me think that you think Biden has not made things significantly worse. Is that correct?

    Does muddled as defined sound like a good thing, BuDuh?

    in a state of bewildered or bewildering confusion or disorder.

    Except for getting more people vaccinated and some favorable foreign policy reversals, Biden has basically been a f-ck-up in office.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  109. You can be EVICTED for smoking tobacco in a rental unit in CA. But possibly not “medical” marijuana.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/21/2021 @ 8:34 am

    Now you’re drifting. They aren’t claiming to do this because they need to “keep renters safe”. This is a restriction because smoking damages the property.

    frosty (fd4fa7)

  110. ‘thulhu, you are correct. The law changed in 2005, possibly in reaction to the way some cities and employers were restricting smoking. The states in grey here have no legal employee protections for smoking, even at home.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  111. This is a restriction because smoking damages the property.

    No, it is because “second-hand smoke” drifts into other apartments.

    https://no-smoke.org/smoker-next-door/

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  112. In any event, frosty, you claimed that it would be ludicrous to extend “workplace health” laws to smoking or drinking, and in fact they are so extended nearly everywhere. In some places they even extend outside the workplace.

    My original argument is that a state that passes a law saying that an employer cannot set health and safety rules (using generally accepted principles like pandemic-related vaccinations) WITHIN a workplace is not only an attack on the employer’s property and business rights, but also on the rights of the vast majority of non-fuktard employees to not have to fear for their lives to go to work.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  113. Question:

    Let’s say that an employee at your place of business is undergoing radiation therapy for a curable cancer. His immune system is damaged by this treatment and, while vaccinated, the vaccine is known to be less effective, given his condition.

    You, when offered a free vaccine that is manifestly safe and effective for the now-billions who have received it, refuse because you think it might not be safe (or because you don’t like the color or whatever). This means that, should you be exposed to the virulent and easily-communicated strains now pandemic, you will bring said virus into the workplace and might transmit it to this individual, who has limited defenses (most breakthrough cases are with people of this type).

    Is your company violating your rights by suspending or firing you? Or is it violating the other person’s rights my allowing you to pose a clear and present danger to them, so that they must quit?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  114. Suppose you worked in the cancer clinic?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  115. Republican Governor Larry Hogan thinks black lives matter:

    A day after a 69-year-old woman was found stabbed to death in a Baltimore City church, Gov. Larry Hogan (R) offered a $100,000 reward from the state and called on Mayor Brandon Scott (D) to match it.

    Some have called it a gimmick and labeled it as grandstanding. Others — including a former mayor — say the money could be a necessary step in bringing a conviction in the death of Evelyn Player, the city’s 298th homicide of the year.

    Player, I learned by following that link to a Baltimore Sun article, was retired, and a regular volunteer at Southern Baptist Church in East Baltimore.

    Hogan’s offer strikes me as a practical way to reduce crime in Baltimore, which hits black residents there, the hardest.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  116. “The states in grey here have no legal employee protections for smoking, even at home.”

    Yeah, CA is the exception rather than the rule.

    Davethulhu (ffac4e)

  117. Walnut Creek Nordstrom ransacked by 80 looters in ski masks with crowbars and weapons

    https://abc7news.com/walnut-creek-nordstrom-looting-robbery-smash-and-grab-wc-broadway-plaza/11258815/

    Gov Newsom will have you know the outrage and danger to the community is from white supremacists and the unvaccinated.

    Obudman (0d5408)

  118. 2. urbanleftbehind (c073c9) — 11/19/2021 @ 5:28 pm

    The cancellation of the Uiygur Conference could be a sop to the Czech far right

    Maybe, but the European far right is sponsored by Russia, whose policy is that dictatorshis support each other – and Saudi rabia is among them. Russia, although I haven;t see this asserted, is probably also behind the anti-Covid policy protests in Austria and the Netherlands (against lockdowns and against compulsory or near compulsory vaccinations

    who might not want A and B to lead to C (resettlement in the Czech Republic

    There are almost no Uiygur refugees. They can’t get out.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  119. So the WSJ reported today that deaths from the virus this year have topped those from last year. That’s with the vaccines in full use all year.

    Where’s the effectiveness of the vaccine?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  120. frosty – This unending discussion would be more helpful if you were to say what governments (and businesses) should — and should not — do about COVID. Specifically.

    If, for example, you believe that service members should not be vaccinated as a condition of service — say so. If you think nursing homes should not be able to require employees be vaccinated against COVID, say so.

    If you think businesses should not be able to require their customers to wear masks, or be vaccinated, say so.

    And, though I don’t expect it from you, I would be impressed if you were to admit that your rules would result in more deaths, but that you think your freedoms are worth that cost.

    (I assume you know — now — that vaccinations for soldiers goes all the way back to George Washington, and that hospitals have been requiring vaccinations for other diseases for many years.)

    Bonus: Say, explicitly, that you are opposed to “Czar” Putin’s efforts to spread misinformation about the COVID vaccines.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  121. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/21/2021 @ 7:46 am

    Hunter’s involvement in helping the Xi regime secure cobalt was geostrategically un-American. Hunter’s dad had to know about this, and he needs to answer some pointed questions.

    I am unfamiliar with this.

    What I do know is that the person who tried to buy the Biden family in 2017, Ye Jianming, later disappeared (his disappearance did not attract sufficient attention abroad for the Communist Party to release video of him supposedly safe) and his multi-billion dollar company, CEFC China Energy Co., was destroyed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_Jianming

    He has been under detention in China since March 2018 on charges of bribery.

    In 2017, Czech President Miloš Zeman appointed CEFC’s founder Ye Jianming as his economic adviser.[2]

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/business/cefc-biden-china-washington-ye-jianming.html

    Ye Jianming courted the Biden family and networked with former United States security officials. Today, his empire is crashing down in court…

    Ye Jianming, a fast-rising Chinese oil tycoon, ventured to places only the most politically connected Chinese companies dared to go. But what he wanted was access to the corridors of power in Washington — and he set out to get it.

    Soon, he was meeting with the family of Joseph R. Biden Jr., who was then the vice president. He dined with R. James Woolsey Jr., a former Central Intelligence Agency director and later a senior adviser to President Trump. He bestowed lavish funding on universities and think tanks with direct access to top Washington leaders, looking for the benefits access can bring. He asked one former American security official: If he bought oil fields in Syria, could the former official persuade the American military not to bomb them?

    That effort has unraveled. Mr. Ye is in Chinese custody and is under investigation for unspecified crimes…..

    https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/12/asia/patrick-ho-ye-jianming-cefc-trial-intl

    Te Czech Republic is now close to China. Ye Jianming tried to develop a personal connection to important people and make himself indispensable/
    ,
    It’s not just cobalt but where China has a competitive advantage over us, they control way too many other rare earths that go into our high-tech products, and this affects our national security.
    A real infrastructure bill would allocate monies and incentives to explore and develop a domestic or North American supply, not unlike what we have with our oil resources.
    It’s too bad Biden’s company didn’t go all in on Evergrande. It would’ve been more fitting for this loser.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  122. NJRob – Perhaps you could tell us how many of those deaths this year occurred among the vaccinated — and how many among the unvaccinated. (The data is available.)

    Incidentally, though because of my age, I am in a high risk group, I was unable to get my first vaccination until March 22nd, so it is incorrect to say: “That’s with the vaccines in full use all year.”

    In fact, they aren’t even in “full use” now, with vaccinations just starting among kids five and up.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  123. @122 why just frosty?

    why don’t you answer your own challenge, Jim Miller?

    what i’ve gathered from this thread and others is that many here start with the desired outcome and work their way backwards, then claim to be all about principles

    JF (e1156d)

  124. “Where’s the effectiveness of the vaccine?”

    You have to take the vaccine for it to protect you.

    Davethulhu (ffac4e)

  125. Where’s the effectiveness of the vaccine?

    Here. You’re welcome. Delta happened mostly under Biden’s watch, which was out of Biden’s control, as did the millions of the vaccine-resistant, which was their bad choice.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  126. @127 delta “was out of biden’s control”

    LMAO

    the buck stops way over there somewhere

    JF (e1156d)

  127. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/21/2021 @ 9:36 am

    We’re talking past each other a bit. I brought up a fairly general issue. You’re doing an on the one hand there’s an outcome I like and it’s legal so reason to justify it but on the other hand there’s another outcome I don’t like that’s also legal so it’s a different analysis and on the third hand this is all consistent because reasons. So, yea, it looks like I’m intentionally misunderstanding you even though I clearly picked up on the 3 card monty.

    frosty (e2f53a)

  128. the buck stops way over there somewhere

    Did I say that? It happened under Biden’s watch. It’s just a fact that heads of state couldn’t stop delta, unless you’re clamoring for an Australia or New Zealand situation, which I doubt you do.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  129. There are nations much closer to full COVID vaccination than the United States, for example, Portugal.

    How much has that helped them? Take a look at their graph of daily deaths, which peaked around 300, and is now barely visible.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  130. It is just property:
    Walnut Creek Nordstrom ransacked by 80 looters in ski masks with crowbars and weapons

    Thank god they didn’t try to sit in Nancy Pelosi’s chair. She should get insurance

    steveg (e81d76)

  131. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 11/21/2021 @ 10:48 am

    And, though I don’t expect it from you, I would be impressed if you were to admit that your rules would result in more deaths, but that you think your freedoms are worth that cost.

    So, funny story. I have admitted everyone’s freedoms are more important than any benefit you think you’ll get from having a few more people vaccinated. But this is the beauty of your dishonesty. You get to passive-aggressively imply all sorts of things.

    Bonus: Say, explicitly, that you are opposed to “Czar” Putin’s efforts to spread misinformation about the COVID vaccines.

    Bonus: say, explicitly that you’re not a cowardly little fascist that has to control other people because you’re afraid. Extra Bonus: say, explicitly that your opposed to the media propaganda and aren’t actively participating in spreading it.

    frosty (ffbb2c)

  132. JF – If you will search the site, for the last month or so, you will find that I have been fairly specific: For example, I think that the federal government can — and should — require COVID vaccinations for service members. (I agree with George Washington.)

    Now, it’s your turn.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  133. @132 well, they followed the mask rules

    JF (e1156d)

  134. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/21/2021 @ 9:56 am

    This hypo applies to the vaccinated as well. A fully vaccinated person also represents a risk. You think there is a significantdifference in the risk of transmission but you have no data to back that up. At the same time you’ve decided there is no significant risk to people that might have legitimate concerns. In fact you mock the idea of legitimate concerns. Something you also have no data for.

    frosty (5f34d9)

  135. @134 Jim Miller, you didn’t answer your own challenge:

    If you think businesses should not be able to require their customers to wear masks, or be vaccinated, say so.

    i agree service members are fair game, as that’s what they signed up for

    JF (e1156d)

  136. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 11/21/2021 @ 10:48 am

    If you think businesses should not be able to require their customers to wear masks, or be vaccinated, say so.

    I almost missed this little dishonest bit of bait and switch. In a discussion about employees you want to switch to customers?

    This has been asked and answered between you and I before but since you want to play the game. Customers aren’t employees and businesses can require customers to wear a mask or prove vac status. This also has nothing to do with firing people because of personal medical decisions in situations where they create absolutely no risk to any other employees or customers.

    I would call this a strawman but at this point it’s just a lie. No one is claiming companies somehow are required to expose covid positive people to anyone else. Companies are applying these vaccine or be fired rules to people who work from home and people like you are cheering this on because it makes you feel good about yourself.

    frosty (f5d695)

  137. Jim

    Smallpox is very different from COVID. You are comparing Apples to Beef.
    COVID barely has an effect on average age military people, while smallpox ravaged through the same age group. Even the method of inoculation used by Washington was way more deadly than COVID is in that age group (death rates from smallpox inoculation/variolation ranged from 5-10%).

    “Variolization still had a case fatality rate of 5 to 10 percent”

    https://www.history.com/news/smallpox-george-washington-revolutionary-war

    If I wanted to quibble further, I’d say Washington behaved like an authoritarian dictator with his volunteers because the Federal Government you describe didn’t exist until 1789

    steveg (e81d76)

  138. @138 agreed

    and, in the case where the feds are putting pressure on companies that have federal contracts, the question of letting businesses set their own health and safety protocols is meaningless

    JF (e1156d)

  139. I apologize for letting my evident disrespect of vac cine-deniers leak out.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  140. This hypo applies to the vaccinated as well. A fully vaccinated person also represents a risk.

    Sure. Also, a sober driver can cause an accident.

    You think there is a significant difference in the risk of transmission but you have no data to back that up

    There is plenty and it has been pointed out to ad nauseum. I won’t play this game. All the “evidence” to the contrary is from vaccine-deniers and/or random posters on government websites.

    If there is any situation where the unvaccinated are less likely to get the disease than the vaccinated, it would be due to differing behavior since the overall statistics are effing obvious to anyone not looking of a different answer.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  141. There was this lady in my neighborhood who repeated told everyone who would listen that two of her neighbors had DIED from the vaccine. This is Roswell-level nonsense.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  142. @92. The crux of the matter is that no one is willing to risk, let alone lose their lucrative deals with China by confronting the thugs.

    Nothing new:

    10 Famous Companies That Collaborated With Nazi Germany

    https://historycollection.com/10-famous-companies-collaborated-nazi-germany/8/

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  143. (I agree with George Washington.)

    Will you still agree with him if Massie is correct, Jim?

    Thomas Massie
    @RepThomasMassie
    Someone needs to inform Ms. Kops that General Washington didn’t require inoculation for soldiers who already had small pox, which included himself. In other words, 200+ years ago, they had more medical knowledge regarding natural immunity than our current commander in chief

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1462220110228295682?cxt=HHwWhMC42a3c7MooAAAA

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  144. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/21/2021 @ 9:56 am

    For the employee who has cancer. Accommodations should be made for that employee but that doesn’t mean every other employee is required to undergo any medical treatment no matter how safe. This employee is also at risk from the flu and a variety of other things. The accommodation should be that the employee isn’t exposed to risks not that all of the other employees be made safe.

    These radiation cases are not new and no one has decided until now that these are the appropriate steps.

    You’re taking a relatively rare situation and saying it justifies overbroad measures.

    You’re also making a claim about breakthrough cases you can’t support. Do you have any actual data on the source of breakthrough infections or is this one of those common sense things that just has to be true.

    frosty (d78c9a)

  145. Given the crudeness of vaccine technology in the late 1700s, there was likely more bodily risk to vaccinate the naturally immune than to do nothing and risk a breakthrough infection.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  146. UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-11-18/uc-slams-door-on-sat-and-all-standardized-admissions-tests

    Make sure your smart kid has mucho social justice credit!

    Obudman (0d5408)

  147. “Delta happened mostly under Biden’s watch, which was out of Biden’s controL”

    I wondered why CNN, MSNBC etc. stopped showing a COVID Death Count meter.

    Obudman (0d5408)

  148. 121. NJRob (eb56c3) — 11/21/2021 @ 10:47 am

    So the WSJ reported today that deaths from the virus this year have topped those from last year. That’s with the vaccines in full use all year.

    Where’s the effectiveness of the vaccine?

    I speculated that this might be because of the vaccine, because mass vaccination may be is preventing the spread of mild cases that immunize may people when an outbreak happens in an area. before they get exposed to a heavy dose of the virus Or it might be because the unvaccinated, who are most of the people who can still transmit it, are not wearing masks, again favoring serious exposures to the virus over mild ones because while most masks are not very effective in preventing transmitting a positive Covid test, they should reduce the viral load a second person is exposed to. Or it’s because now the variant is Delta, which didn’t come into its own until the middle of this year (it was first identified in India in December, 2020)

    And it’s because the effective therapeutics are not being used enough.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  149. * mass vaccination maybe is preventing the spread of mild cases that, when an outbreak happens in an area, immunize many people before they get exposed to a heavy dose of the virus.

    A closer examination of the statistics could determine if this idea – that the vaccination campaign may be costing more lives than it is saving – is plausible. On an individual basis, it’s beneficial.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  150. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/21/2021 @ 11:52 am

    Now you’re doing the jim miller bait and switch.

    The vaccine does a good job of mitigating the covid disease, ie the symptoms and likelihood of getting ill. We also know that people with the vaccine can still spread the virus that causes the disease. So, people with the vaccine are still a risk to other people and given the various data we’ve got I’d say anyone claiming they know the relative difference in the level of risk is mistaken at best.

    So, when we’re talking about transmission of the virus you want to switch to the disease and pretend you aren’t playing a game? Or do you honestly not understand the difference? That last part seems unlikely. You seem like someone more than capable of making that distinction.

    frosty (9e979f)

  151. I wondered why CNN, MSNBC etc. stopped showing a COVID Death Count meter.
    Obudman (0d5408) — 11/21/2021 @ 12:31 pm

    Think those counters may have wandered onto the screens of reports about Republican Governors? That’s what I’d do if I was projected.

    felipe (484255)

  152. I don’t “do” TV so someone will have to catch me up.

    felipe (484255)

  153. #143 Kevin
    There was this lady in my neighborhood who repeated told everyone who would listen that two of her neighbors had DIED from the vaccine. This is Roswell-level nonsense.

    She misspoke. They died with the vax. Just like all thoose people who died with/from COVID. My 100+ year old tia abuela was counted as died of COVID, but she actually died with COVID.

    Maybe the wneighbor lady was just doing the grim milestone counts the same way the local health departments were.
    You can’t blame people for looking around and saying: “OK if that is how the accounting is run, lets be consistent and apply it to everything”

    steveg (e81d76)

  154. from the last Kyle Rittenhouse thread:

    62. 69. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 11/19/2021 @ 1:25 pm

    @62. He did it, [pardoned the turkeys] Sammy. It’s the optics of it all.

    I think I heard some wrong information on Friday: That the pardon of the turkeys was scheduled for 3:15 and he wouldn’t be able to do it.

    Biden invoked the 25th amendment from 10:10 am to 11:35 am Friday. The examination was not announced to the press until 6 am. Now for a colonoscopy you need to prepare two or three days in advance. So maybe indeed there were diplomatic/national security reasons for the secrecy. Or they didn;t want it somehow to derail the passage of the big bill in the House.

    It’s the first full medical examination Biden had since December, 2019. (assuming that is accurate(

    The White House physician said in a 6-page report that Biden had a worsening cough caused by gastroesophageal reflux.

    Also his gait is stiffer when he walks than it used to be.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  155. Kevin

    I’m on my 3rd jab (last Tuesday) and have put myself on grim milestone/deathwatch for the next two weeks.
    If my posts are less coherent than usual, it’s because I decided to get into the Elmer T Lee bourbon I bought a bunch of years ago. No sense wasting it on my heirs

    steveg (e81d76)

  156. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/21/2021 @ 12:21 pm

    There’s a difference between inoculation and vaccination. I’m assuming you’re aware of that?

    Are you aware that jim miller is in favor of what Washington did even though that’s exactly what he’s against with covid?

    The only thing he’s really in favor of is the forcing part.

    frosty (3ddbac)

  157. Worth Reading: Mona Charen’s “Welcome to the Daddy Wars”.

    Sample:

    Poverty and growing up in a single-parent home is tough for both sexes. But there is mounting evidence that early hardship is more damaging for boys than girls. In other words, to raise healthier, happier, and more successful men (and women) we need stronger foundations, which means stable, two-parent families.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  158. Great link, Jim.

    Unfortunately, so much policy has encouraged fatherlessness. It’s a wide ranging problem. I worry a lot about Biden’s announced $300 per kid payout (I realize that’s not very accurate since it’s a tax credit, but that’s how it’s been sold).

    The Great Society is not very great. We really need to find a way to get politicians to stop spreading money, but of course we’re headed in the exact opposite direction. We’ll see more dependency, more ‘me me me’ social media, less community, and a lot less fatherhood. To account for differences in outcome, racism will be the explanation, ironically driving a lot more neo-racism.

    Dustin (150498)

  159. From George Washington to John Hancock, 5 February 1777

    ….The small pox has made such Head in every Quarter that I find it impossible to keep it from spreading thro’ the whole Army in the natural way. I have therefore determined, not only to innoculate all the Troops now here, that have not had it, but shall order Docr Shippen to innoculate the Recuits as fast as they come in to Philadelphia. …

    https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/03-08-02-0268

    And

    To George Washington from the Continental Congress Medical Committee, 13 February 1777

    The Congress Apprehending that the Small Pox may greatly endanger the Lives of our fellow Citizens who Compose the army under your Excellency’s Command, and also very much embarrass the Military Operations, have directed their Medical Committee to request your Excellency to give Orders that all who have not had that Disease may be Inoculated, if your Excellency Shall be of Opinion that it can be done without prejudice to your Operations.

    https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/03-08-02-0349

    Jim, is George Washington still on your Island?

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  160. There’s a difference between inoculation and vaccination. I’m assuming you’re aware of that?

    Aaron Rodgers and I are both aware, frosty. Although it’s just a TV series, Outlander actually covered that period of history, including smallpox outbreaks. Mea culpa for my imprecise verbiage.
    I agree with GW’s decision to treat all his men who hadn’t caught it before.
    I’ve already commented about the folks with natural immunity, that they’ve gotten short shrift. Nevertheless, it’s not a big deal to get super-immunity with the vax.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  161. Goldberg and Hayes hit a breaking point after Tucker’s irresponsible “Patriot Purge” video.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  162. Here’s one of the interesting things about the covid times. OSHA could actually release recommendations that would be helpful and most likely within its bailiwick. For example, it could provide guidelines on airflow and ventilation in areas where people congregate. It could provide guidelines on the amount of sunlight in an area that would stimulate vitamin D production or UV light that breaks down the virus.

    Ventilation and vitamin D are known to be linked to reducing transmission and improving immune response. And it could do those things without infringing any personal freedoms. We’ll, granted, they’re infringing a persons right to have stale air and artificial light.

    Let me guess though, the same crowd that knows about the ADA or OSHA guidelines thinks this is an unacceptable infringement of corporate property rights. Oh, and this is quack anti-vax mumbo jumbo.

    frosty (f27e97)

  163. Who are Goldberg and Hayes?

    Members of the 81 Million?

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  164. Ok.. I found out who those clowns are.

    https://twitter.com/brad_polumbo/status/1462554129721614342

    They seem to be getting the attention they deserve.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  165. #160 Dustin – One of things that COVID reminded me of is that — on the average — women have stronger immune systems than men. That makes women more prone to auto-immune diseases, but more resistant to infectious diseases — which are more of a threat to humans, even now.

    (We had an example of that in my family. One of my grandnephews, along with his wife, both caught COVID at the same time, and it was worse for him, than her.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  166. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/21/2021 @ 3:16 pm

    Are you in favor of intentionally infecting people with the live virus? Because that’s what he did. It’s a joke for people to use Washington as an example and also mock natural immunity (no, I’m not accusing you of that but other commenters here have). The Prager thread was full of that, Prager did less than what Washington did and only to himself, and the same people who mocked one will applaud the other without making any distinction.

    Nevertheless, it’s not a big deal to get super-immunity with the vax.

    I really don’t understand the inability of people to speak honestly. I have never said it was a big deal to get the vaccine. I have never said anyone shouldn’t get it.

    What I’ve done is taken an anti-mandate position, I’ve said it was an individual choice, and I’ve pointed out the emotional rationalizations and the hysteria that has taken hold. A lot of the logic I’m seeing on this is either circular or ends justifying.

    You’ve mentioned Dr John Campbell before. If you’re still following him you’ll notice he’s started to make a lot of the same points I’ve been making. He’s certainly started to notice the concerted and consistent misinformation that’s being put out. I don’t think I’ve said anything inconsistent with him and he’s not anti-vax.

    frosty (99fc9b)

  167. Jim Miller is taking this pretty well.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  168. Two Fox News Contributors Quit in Protest of Tucker Carlson’s Jan. 6 Special
    Jonah Goldberg and Stephen Hayes, stars of a brand of conservatism that has fallen out of fashion, decide they’ve had enough.

    America needs truck drivers.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  169. Did Don, Jr, intend this as an insult?

    Former President Trump plans his first post-presidency book — “Our Journey Together,” featuring 300+ official White House photographs.

    Don Jr. tells Axios: “My father picked every single photo in this book, wrote all the captions, including some by hand.”

    In other words, the Don did what any reasonably bright kid could do, after finishing the first grade.

    (Have the late-night comics picked this up, yet? They don’t get straight lines like that every day.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  170. @156. Also his gait is stiffer when he walks than it used to be.

    He has some gastrointestinal issues as well some other issues. Like falling going UP stairs. Put the politics of it all aside; he’s just too damn old for this gig– or pretty much any other. And the optics of the leader of the free world looking hobbled, frail, diminished, absent-minded, etc., as the world marches on into the 21st century is devastating – and has Xi and Pitin not only grinning, but salivating. Always figured Vlad would roll into Ukraine in the summer months a la Adolf; but strategies change; won’t be surprised if an “invitation to liberate Ukraine” comes in the cold winter months when the threat of turning off energy supplies to an outraged Europe will keep their voices chilled.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  171. Blah, blah, blah, vaccine bad, blah, blah, blah, election stolen, waah, sob, snivel, whine, blah, blah, blah, vaccine mandate bad, blah, blah, blah, blah, waah, Mueller, waah, blah, blah, vaccine extra bad, masks, no, no, no, blah, blah, blah, blah, hydroxychloroquine, yay, ivermectin, wow, blah, blah, blah!

    There you go, guys! Not anything you need to read that’s for sure, but I guarantee you that it’s the entire substance of all that you will read from the Covid deniers and anti-vaxxers no matter how many words they use, so put your time to better use. You’re welcome.

    nk (1d9030)

  172. Speaking of Roswell, here’s one of my favorite cartoons.

    (It’s an oldie, as you can tell from the design of the rover.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  173. I wouldn’t compare George Washington to Dennis Prager, frosty. Actually, it’s a terrible comparison.
    Washington used the technology available to protect his soldiers from being incapacitated by the disease. There shouldn’t be any dispute that Washington was pro-vax.
    Prager refused getting vaccinated and instead opted for pro-crank “remedies”.

    I really don’t understand the inability of people to speak honestly.

    I categorically your insinuation that I wasn’t speaking honestly. And it pisses me off.
    I’m on record that as rejecting Biden’s mandates on private businesses, and that employers should have the choice to vaccinate or not vaccinate their workforce.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  174. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/21/2021 @ 3:16 pm

    He also didn’t “treat” his men. He infected them, it generally made them sick, and had a fairly high fatality rate. It made the “treated” men sick for roughly a month, some more and some less, and he had to be very careful the British didn’t find out about it.

    He didn’t protect them from the virus. He weeded out the ones unable to survive the virus in a setting that was the least damaging to the army as a whole and to its way fighting capability.

    There is no one praising Washington today who is also advocating doing what he did to men in the military then as a condition of general employment now. But there are certainly people justifying the later based on the former and expecting you not to know about the contradiction.

    frosty (f27e97)

  175. You’re taking a relatively rare situation and saying it justifies overbroad measures.

    It is not at all rare. My wife went through it a couple of years ago and two friends are doing it now. What IS rare, or ought to be rare, is people taking a casual attitude towards other people during a pandemic. “Oh, It won’t hurt me if I get it, so I choose not to get vaccinated.”

    Left unsaid is there are no intelligent reasons not to be vaccinated, save some fear of the unknown.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  176. We also know that people with the vaccine can still spread the virus that causes the disease.

    Yes, of course they can. But they express far fewer viral particles, and for a mush shorter time period. Do I have to draw a picture here?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  177. Anyone who will not get vaccinated is a terrible, no good, assh0le of a person. Worse than Trump, who got vaccinated even though he had natural immunity. It is sociopathic.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  178. Revenge served lukewarm and off-coordinates?
    the M.O. is more Islamo, though:

    https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/car-drives-through-crowd-at-waukesha-holiday-parade-multiple-injured

    urbanleftbehind (c073c9)

  179. To Paul’s credit, he is doing the heavy lifting Jim ran away from.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  180. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/21/2021 @ 4:41 pm

    Washington used the technology available to protect his soldiers from being incapacitated by the disease.

    No. He absolutely did not protect his soldiers. He protected the army from being incapacitated in the field by weeding out the people who couldn’t survive it before he took them into the field. The technology of his time was giving them the live virus in a quarantined setting with medical personnel available.

    There shouldn’t be any dispute that Washington was pro-vax.

    No. The first vaccine was developed in 1796. He inoculated the troops starting in 1777. Vaccines didn’t really kick into gear until the 19th century.

    How on earth do people think Washington mandated a vaccine prior to the first vaccine?

    frosty (f27e97)

  181. frosty (3ddbac) — 11/21/2021 @ 1:10 pm

    Are you aware that jim miller is in favor of what Washington did even though that’s exactly what he’s against with covid?

    Giving people what they hoped would be a mild case (that nevertheless had a fatality rate of about 2% to 3% – better than small[ox which had a 30% fatality rate in Europeans) was the best they could do at the time (1776). That was before Edward Jenner found out about cowpox. (1796)

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  182. Jim Miller @171. No, mot the first grade, but maybe the 5th grade or even the 4th grade. No need to exaggerate.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  183. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/21/2021 @ 4:43 pm

    So, every workplace has a person with a compromised immune system that everyone else needs to accommodate? Even people who never interact with this person need to make accommodations that don’t protect the person in anyway.

    Yes, we all know someone. That isn’t a ladder that’s going to get you to that moral high ground you’re trying to get on top of.

    But they express far fewer viral particles, and for a mush shorter time period. Do I have to draw a picture here?

    How much fewer? How shorter? Where’s the actual data on this? So far this is a wish without a lot of details. So, sure draw me a picture that justifies firing people who won’t comply with your demands.

    Anyone who will not get vaccinated is a terrible, no good, assh0le of a person

    Anyone deciding they know best what everyone else needs to do and being willing to force them, or punish them, is a no good little fascist coward.

    frosty (f27e97)

  184. From Wikipedia:

    Polio vaccines are vaccines used to prevent poliomyelitis (polio).[2] Two types are used: an inactivated poliovirus given by injection (IPV) and a weakened poliovirus given by mouth (OPV).[2] The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends all children be fully vaccinated against polio.[2] The two vaccines have eliminated polio from most of the world,[3][4] and reduced the number of cases reported each year from an estimated 350,000 in 1988 to 33 in 2018.[5][6]

    The inactivated polio vaccines are very safe.[2] Mild redness or pain may occur at the site of injection.[2] Oral polio vaccines cause about three cases of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis per million doses given.[2] This compares with 5,000 cases per million who are paralysed following a polio infection.[7] Both types of vaccine are generally safe to give during pregnancy and in those who have HIV/AIDS but are otherwise well.[2] However, the emergence of circulating vaccine-derived poliovirus (cVDPV), a form of the vaccine virus that has reverted to causing poliomyelitis, has led to the development of novel oral polio vaccine type 2 (nOPV2) which aims to make the vaccine safer and thus stop further outbreaks of cVDPV2.[8]

    The Sabin vaccine uses a live virus, just as Washington did. There are risks both to the variolation used by Washington — which weakened the virus by infecting through the skin, rather than the lungs — and, as Wikipedia says, to the Sabin oral polio virus.

    Variolation, or now, vaccination, both give long-lasting strong protection against smallpox. And the polio vaccines give long-lasting strong protection against polio.

    However, although we have developed a variety of vaccines against COVID, we have not found one that does not weaken with time. Similarly, those who survive a COVID infection do not have long-lasting strong protection, so they would be prudent to do as the Don did, and get vaccinated.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  185. #184 Sammy – Well, I did qualify that with “reasonably bright”.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  186. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/21/2021 @ 4:41 pm

    I categorically your insinuation that I wasn’t speaking honestly. And it pisses me off.

    Get as pissed off as you want if it helps you stop misrepresenting my comments because this

    I’m on record that as rejecting Biden’s mandates on private businesses, and that employers should have the choice to vaccinate or not vaccinate their workforce.

    isn’t what I was referring to. And you had to selectively quote me to get there.

    frosty (f27e97)

  187. 179. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/21/2021 @ 4:49 pm

    Worse than Trump, who got vaccinated even though he had natural immunity.

    I don;t know how strong naturally acquired immunity Trump had, since he got the Regeneron antibodies (by special permission from the company) fairly early in his infection. As doctors probably recommended, he waited about three months after his infection to take the vaccine.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  188. Can Vitamin D protect against COVID? Well, I hope so, but a very quick search suggests that we do not yet have a definitive answer to that question.

    While previous research early in the pandemic suggested that vitamin D cuts the risk of contracting COVID-19, a new study from McGill University finds there is no genetic evidence that the vitamin works as a protective measure against the coronavirus.

    “Vitamin D supplementation as a public health measure to improve outcomes is not supported by this study. Most importantly, our results suggest that investment in other therapeutic or preventative avenues should be prioritized for COVID-19 randomized clinical trials,” say the authors.

    (On the other hand, we can be certain that better ventilation, especially coupled with ultraviolet treatments can work — and I blame both the Trump and Biden administrations for not putting in more effort into that.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  189. 174.
    Jim Miller (edcec1) — 11/21/2021 @ 4:41 pm

    Speaking of Roswell, here’s one of my favorite cartoons.

    (It’s an oldie, as you can tell from the design of the rover.)

    It’s not in the Internet archive, with or without the print option. Do you want to put it there?

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  190. Can Vitamin D protect against COVID?

    Proper nutrition protects against everything.

    nk (1d9030)

  191. Enes Kanter is the best thing going in Sports.
    China james is a profiteer off slave labor.
    When they start calling double dribble, traveling and get rid of the 3 point line, I may watch.

    mg (8cbc69)

  192. Religious institutions are under attack, according to Denver Archbishop Samuel J. Aquila and Tim Busch, a layman.

    “Satan lives here.”

    These words greeted parishioners and visitors on a recent Sunday morning at the Cathedral Basilica of the Immaculate Conception in Denver. They were spray-painted in blood-red text on the main bronze double doors, with further hateful graffiti, including swastikas, scattered across the cathedral grounds.

    Denver residents were shocked to see the defacement of an iconic landmark. But the real shock is this: Archdiocese records show that at least 25 other Catholic parishes and ministry centers in and around Denver have been vandalized, looted, targeted by arson or desecrated in the past 21 months alone.

    And there have been similar attacks on Protestant churches, Muslim mosques, Buddhist temples, and, of course, Jewish synagogues.

    Why? I think it is one more aspect of the growing anger in the nation.

    (felipe – Are you seeing something similar in your area?)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  193. 179 – Wanna duel, azzhole?

    mg (8cbc69)

  194. #191 Sammy – I used a link to a commercial site to avoid copyright problems.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  195. The technology of his time was giving them the live virus in a quarantined setting with medical personnel available.

    Not quite. Per my link.

    Washington had initially ordered that no one in the army be inoculated, which was done by infecting them with a less-deadly form of smallpox, because he didn’t want to risk debilitating his men and leaving them vulnerable to a British attack while they recovered.

    That’s not the same thing as pulling a Prager.

    No. The first vaccine was developed in 1796. He inoculated the troops starting in 1777. Vaccines didn’t really kick into gear until the 19th century.

    Duh. That was already acknowledged. I was making the easy leap that a person in favor of inoculations would also be in favor of vaccines.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  196. Get as pissed off as you want if it helps you stop misrepresenting my comments because this

    I didn’t misrepresent anything. I offered my own opinion, and it didn’t dispute (and wasn’t intended to dispute) what you said. I think you should ease up on that itchy “dishonesty” trigger finger and not take every comment as disagreement with yours.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  197. Breaking- ‘Mass Casualty Incident’ at Christmas Parade in Waukesha, WI; SUV plows into parade; initial reports- multiple injuries/fatalities

    https://www.2gb.com/mass-casualty-event-in-wisconsin-as-suv-ploughs-through-christmas-parade/

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  198. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 11/21/2021 @ 5:17 pm

    Variolation, or now, vaccination

    Not really.

    Variolation is a method of infecting a person with a live smallpox virus in a way that is expected to give them a milder case. But they are infected with a live virus that can, and often did, cause a serious infection and death. It didn’t weaken the virus. It infected via a method that gave the body a better chance of fighting it off.

    Vaccine : noun

    A preparation of a weakened or killed pathogen, such as a bacterium or virus, or of a portion of the pathogen’s structure that upon administration to an individual stimulates antibody production or cellular immunity against the pathogen but is incapable of causing severe infection.

    These aren’t the same thing. Yes, I know that in the days of covid we’re redefining words and one of those is vaccine. But the vax-fascist haven’t gotten to the dictionary yet.

    frosty (f27e97)

  199. Spectator basketball is sublimated pederasty. Like hero-worshipping a 17-year old pudgeball who shot three people.

    nk (1d9030)

  200. Jim doesn’t really care, frosty. That is why he passed the baton to Paul.

    BuDuh (e7b1f6)

  201. More from Hayes-Goldberg, directly from the source.

    The special—which ran on Fox’s subscription streaming service earlier this month and was promoted on Fox News—is presented in the style of an exposé, a hard-hitting piece of investigative journalism. In reality, it is a collection of incoherent conspiracy-mongering, riddled with factual inaccuracies, half-truths, deceptive imagery, and damning omissions. And its message is clear: The U.S. government is targeting patriotic Americans in the same manner —and with the same tools—that it used to target al Qaeda.

    “The domestic war on terror is here. It’s coming after half of the country,” says one protagonist. “The left is hunting the right, sticking them in Guantanamo Bay for American citizens—leaving them there to rot,” says another, over video of an individual in an orange jumpsuit being waterboarded.

    This is not happening. And we think it’s dangerous to pretend it is. If a person with such a platform shares such misinformation loud enough and long enough, there are Americans who will believe—and act upon—it.

    This isn’t theoretical. This is what actually happened on January 6, 2021.

    Over the past five years, some of Fox’s top opinion hosts amplified the false claims and bizarre narratives of Donald Trump or offered up their own in his service. In this sense, the release of Patriot Purge wasn’t an isolated incident, it was merely the most egregious example of a longstanding trend. Patriot Purge creates an alternative history of January 6, contradicted not just by common sense, not just by the testimony and on-the-record statements of many participants, but by the reporting of the news division of Fox News itself.

    Full disclosure, I subscribe to The Dispatch, just as I do Patterico’s substack. There’s a problem at Fox, that the suits would greenlight this little “project” of Carlson’s.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  202. These aren’t the same thing.

    Again I say “duh”. That was well established well upthread.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  203. Scratch that last comment. I see it was directed at Jim.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  204. Does the subscription version detail what was incorrect in the Patriot Purge? Because the bit you linked was more crying than anything.

    BuDuh (e7b1f6)

  205. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/21/2021 @ 5:45 pm

    Not quite. Per my link.

    I’m not sure what your disagreeing with. I get an error when I click on the link I think you’re referring to. Here’s a link that seems relatively objective.

    Washington chose to have his soldiers inoculated during the winter for strategic reasons. Fighting had ebbed and most campaigning took place during warmer weather. By inoculating his troops during the winter Washington adroitly gave his troops enough time to recover from the effects of inoculation before fighting commenced. Most of the inoculations took place at the Morristown, New Jersey encampment and in facilities in Philadelphia. The risk was enormous as less than a quarter of those serving at the time in the Continental Army had contracted the disease naturally.

    And

    A physician lanced one of the infected patient’s pustules with a knife or scalpel and then inserted the infected blade under the skin of a healthy person.

    I think I’ve accurately described the history correctly. You think Washington didn’t order his men infected with the live virus? Or did I get something else wrong?

    frosty (f27e97)

  206. I was making the easy leap that a person in favor of inoculations would also be in favor of vaccines.

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/21/2021 @ 5:45 pm

    We’ve at least made the easy leap that a person in favor of forcing other people to be infected with smallpox would be in favor of forcing them to take a vaccine if that was an option.

    frosty (f27e97)

  207. BuDuh (e7b1f6) — 11/21/2021 @ 6:04 pm

    I know. I was thinking he’d take a different path after trying the red-baiting or the “I’m with Washington because he intentionally infected his troops with smallpox hoping he could create a firebreak” arguments.

    He’s doing everything he can to not say he’s in favor of forcing people to do whatever the latest CDC announcement says might help with the virus while basically saying that every other post or so. He doesn’t really want that you understand but something must be done.

    frosty (f27e97)

  208. @203. Translation- “We’re now so irrelevant, we might as well quit a highly rated and viewed media platform and retreat to much smaller paid-access platforms to opine.”

    “Miss Hobbs, I’m offering you an hour of primetime television every week, into which you can stick whatever propaganda that you want… … That’s a lot better than handing out mimeographed pamphlets on ghetto street corners.” – Diana Christensen [Faye Dunaway] ‘Network’ 1976

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  209. Terrible event in Waukesha, someone drove through dozens of people at a parade, killing at least a couple. Speculation ranges from a pursuit gone wrong to a racial attack, but whatever they say will probably be wrong for a while.

    We are living through some dark stuff though.

    Dustin (a145cf)

  210. @211. Could be just a drunk, too. They’re doing a second presser in a few minutes.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  211. Dustin (a145cf) — 11/21/2021 @ 6:51 pm

    We are living through some dark stuff though.

    We are.

    whatever they say will probably be wrong for a while

    I like the 24-48 hour rule.

    frosty (f27e97)

  212. A notable side effect of pandemic school policies:

    Nearly 2 years into COVID, the kids have gone feral and teachers are their prey
    Overwhelmed faculty members are pleading with parents to help the kids to stop acting like sociopaths and relearn basic social skills

    Diane Carman
    Nov 21, 2021

    A kind of mass hysteria has spread through school populations, particularly among middle school and younger high school students. Without the structure of classroom instruction last year, the whole educational cohort experienced a kind of collective arrested development — or worse.

    They’ve gone feral.

    Ryan Silva, principal of Cherry Creek High School, sent a letter to parents this month asking for their help in getting the kids to stop acting like sociopaths.

    On the school campus, Silva said students are “treating each other and adults disrespectfully … leaving trash in halls, cafeterias and outdoor spaces.”

    Teachers report the students use profanity and racial epithets toward them and each other, refuse to do their work, disrupt classrooms and repeatedly ask to use the restroom so they can wander the halls and never return to class. Then when teachers attempt to limit restroom passes, the kids complain to their parents that the teachers are being unreasonable and won’t even allow them to use the bathroom…

    Mike Eaton, chief of safety for Denver Public Schools, told Chalkbeat that fights in the district are up 21% over the same period in pre-pandemic 2019.

    I’m not able to post links, but you can find it at the Colorado Sun. A couple of things to note here–the author is a long-time hyperpartisan leftist nannyscold whose career and writing output practically epitomizes the cultural arc of the New Left Boomers. For her to be complaining about students giving the finger to polite society is really the height of irony considering what her allies did from the late 60s-early 70s.

    The other thing is that Cherry Creek isn’t just any old school–it is THE premier high school of the Colorado public school system. Its student body largely consists of kids from upper-middle class to very wealthy families (John Elway’s kids all went there, for example) who don’t want to send their kids to church-oriented private schools like Mullen, Regis, or Valor Christian. Its tennis team holds a record for state championships that runs over several decades.

    Combine that with the issues at DPS, plus recent shootings that took place at schools in the Aurora Public School system this past week, and it’s becoming pretty obvious that the cracking of the social contract and the fomenting of cultural divisions by the media goes a lot deeper than most want to admit.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  213. Tucker responds to the limp wristed retreat of the Dispatch dough boys:

    https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1462617334330363911

    Hahaha

    BuDuh (874a98)

  214. “According to police, a person of interest is in custody after an SUV sped through a Wisconsin-area parade, striking more than 20 people.”

    ok, a person

    scratch hippo, gorilla and llama off your list

    they know more of course

    JF (e1156d)

  215. Charles P. Pierce
    @CharlesPPierce
    This country is coming unglued.
    5:03 PM · Nov 21, 2021·Twitter Web App

    Hey, Chuck, don’t call it a grave; it’s the future you chose.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  216. Could be just a drunk, too. They’re doing a second presser in a few minutes.

    He was going at a pretty good clip, looking at the video. He may have been drunk, but that’s not why he did it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  217. Can Vitamin D protect against COVID?

    Lots of things might. It’s a big world. But only a few things are known to work. You go trying other things, you’re on your own.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  218. Anyone deciding they know best what everyone else needs to do and being willing to force them, or punish them, is a no good little fascist coward.

    I didn’t say that government should force anyone (although states CAN, already been decided in a non-fascistic manner). What I said is that if they decide not to, they are terrible, no good, cowardly pieces of crap deserving of whatever happens to them. But that’s their call, not mine.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  219. @FWO@214 There’s also been a tiktok fad encouraging and in fact giving instructions on how to vandalize schools and giving out points for videos of various types of vandalism.

    We’ve solved the issue by having the students sign out electronically to the restroom and having campus monitors with access to the online program in the halls outside each restroom cluster checking students into the restroom. It means the students have to go to the nearest restroom and can’t wander the school and we know who has signed out of class, which restrooms they are in (or never arrived at), so that if vandalism happens, we can track the small number of possible people who could have done it. It’s been very effective and solved a few other problems as well.

    Nic (896fdf)

  220. I’m not sure what your disagreeing with.

    The same thought crossed my mind. I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with, but you chose to disagree in your reply and then called me dishonest. I’m getting a real sense of deja vu from your exchanges with other commenters here. Why do you think that is?

    You think Washington didn’t order his men infected with the live virus? Or did I get something else wrong?

    I think I cut-and-pasted from my link accurately. Why are you questioning me on that?

    We’ve at least made the easy leap that a person in favor of forcing other people to be infected with smallpox would be in favor of forcing them to take a vaccine if that was an option.

    In a military readiness setting, yes. Why is that controversial to you?

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  221. https://redstate.com/nick-arama/2021/11/22/waukesha-attack-suspect-identified-was-released-on-cash-bail-two-days-ago-n479792

    The mass murderer in Waukesha that the media isn’t concerned about is finally identified.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  222. Does the subscription version detail what was incorrect in the Patriot Purge? Because the bit you linked was more crying than anything.

    The following was a quote from Tucker’s “documentary”:

    “The domestic war on terror is here. It’s coming after half of the country,” says one protagonist. “The left is hunting the right, sticking them in Guantanamo Bay for American citizens—leaving them there to rot,” says another, over video of an individual in an orange jumpsuit being waterboarded.

    Do you agree with that assessment? If so, why? On what evidence? And where’s this “crying” you’re talking about?
    But before you do that, BuDuh, I asked you a question regarding your comment on a previous thread and you ran away, so I’d rather you answer that first. What did you mean when you said “That which he praised ended in failure”?

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  223. Poor Paul.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  224. Still evading.
    Sad, BuDuh. Why are you afraid to answer questions?

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  225. You get so snippy.

    I still don’t have to do your work for you, no matter how much you whine.

    Go figure it out, or pout… I will get a good night sleep while you fixate.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  226. Kevin M. can take my jab and shove it.

    mg (8cbc69)

  227. The bad faith permeating this site is just about making this comment section unreadable.

    Soon we will see how fun it will be when the trolls have no one to troll. I just hope this self-amusing “performance art” is just a manifestation of anonymous, zero-consequence, social media….and not how they normally behave. Time123 probably had the right idea….enough is enough

    AJ_Liberty (3cb02f)

  228. They’re basically spammers, A_J Liberty.

    nk (1d9030)

  229. AJ_Liberty (3cb02f) — 11/22/2021 @ 3:56 am

    You have recourse to the script in the sidebar:

    Make the comments of annoying commenters disappear, with a simple comment script! Instructions here.

    felipe (484255)

  230. I wish everyone a safe and joyful TG! Let’s attend to our families with renewed solicitude.

    felipe (484255)

  231. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/21/2021 @ 10:53 pm

    I don’t. What I think is that it’s not what is being claimed. He didn’t do it to protect his men and contrary to what jim claims he isn’t recommending now what Washington did then. If he was he’d be saying that everyone should be exposed to the live virus in the best possible environment to acquire natural immunity.

    I think I cut-and-pasted from my link accurately. Why are you questioning me on that?

    Because

    Washington had initially ordered that no one in the army be inoculated, which was done by infecting them with a less-deadly form of smallpox, because he didn’t want to risk debilitating his men and leaving them vulnerable to a British attack while they recovered.

    may be an accurate copy and paste but it doesn’t give a complete version of events.

    First, it’s not important what he initially did. Second, they weren’t infected with a less deadly version, Third, he did risk debilitating them and leaving them vulnerable which is why he did it in winter and it was a closely guarded secret. In addition, he knew he risked killing a very significant number. This is why he didn’t do it in the field. He did it in such a way that it gave him time to reorganize around the men who survived and he did it in a setting where he could provide what medical care he could to limit causalities.

    I don’t this that’s controversial at all. I just think it’s not what jim wanted to pretend it was.

    frosty (f27e97)

  232. AJ_Liberty (3cb02f) — 11/22/2021 @ 3:56 am

    You can choose to live with the preconceived biases and comfortable notions you’ve come to enjoy or you can subject them to criticism and debate. The second choice is uncomfortable and constantly trying to resolve cognitive dissonance can be both exhausting and prone to creating high levels of anxiety.

    As both you and felipe have said, you’ve got options.

    Soon we will see how fun it will be when the trolls have no one to troll

    I for one welcome the day when this site drifts back closer to the reasoned conversations that used to be more common. I don’t actually enjoy having to wade through the bad reasoning and virtue signaling. I read the blog for years before commenting and only started commenting after the signal to noise ratio in the comment section got so bad.

    frosty (f27e97)

  233. Time123 probably had the right idea….enough is enough

    AJ_Liberty (3cb02f) — 11/22/2021 @ 3:56 am

    Maybe I missed something else but Time123 was misrepresenting details of the KR case and it seems like Time123 stopped commenting after that kept being pointed out. That happened with several people over a couple of comment threads.

    Do you think everyone should have read Time123’s comments and said nothing in response? Was it bad faith to say those comments were wrong? After that happened multiple times were people trolling Time123? Was replying to those comments performance art?

    My answer, obviously, is no, no, no, and no. If you think I’m wrong can you explain why without calling me a troll?

    frosty (f27e97)

  234. “You have recourse to the script in the sidebar”

    That’s a nuclear option…and I’m not sure it makes the comment section any more readable. It’s easy to quickly identify and skip Steppe Nomad’s ranting missives…it’s harder to anticipate how a reasonable discussion point can spin off into tedious hair-splitting. DCSCA has shown that anti-social behavior can be corrected…and he can make thoughtful and insightful comments…bravo. Too many just have a sadistic side to them that seems compulsive.
    https://www.spsp.org/news-center/blog/buckels-internet-trolls

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  235. I found an old newspaper (or somebody else found part of the New York Daily News from Friday, July 29, 2997) and gave it to me) that had on the Ip ed page four excerts from blogs (newspapers used to run it occasionally(

    They seem to be still active except for http://frum.nationalreview.com which stopped on January 18, 2009 and still had its last post in 2014. Not so in 2016 – and the last attempted crawl was in Feb. 2018 but he moved to http://www.newmajority.com which is still an active website.

    One of the 4 websites is onsidianwings blogs, whose most recent post is:

    https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2021/11/the-conservative-case-for-universal-basic-income.html#comments

    He doesn’t really address the idea of affordability and misses his best argument – that it eliminates disinceentives to gain income and assets. The best argument against it: it won’t be enough to substitute for all programs.

    It is not very informed – he’s still talking abut phyaical checks!

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  236. Why actors in English soeaking roles in programs shot in South Korea are so bad:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/q3376g/the_real_reasons_why_foreigner_actors_in_korea/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossm

    The producers are used to it, and it doesn’t make sense for anyone good to take such a job.

    …MBC pays an agency which pays another agency to find ‘actors’ and each agency wants to take their cut before paying the actor. The actor only receives about $80-$150 for a long day of acting.

    You only get given your role and script when you arrive early in the morning on set, and you get given minimal time to memorise and process what the role is. What is worse is that the script is mostly written in Korean with minor bits and lines translated into English, so most of the time, there is no explanation about the role or the situation.

    Most decent actors don’t perform for such low pay. Also, native English speakers would rather teach English for more money than to sit around for hours and run around doing scenes all day, and most decent actors won’t come unless they can get the script in advance, so that they can at least do some script analysis or memorization.

    (Just for reference, the Korean cast normally go through a lot of auditions to get the role on the same show, get about $500 for the day, and get the script at least 2-3 days in advance).

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  237. They’re just full of sh!t and they don’t know it, A_J Liberty. They’d have to achieve ordinary banality before they acquired the sentience for sadism. When they try to draw you in, just tell them to blow it out their ass, like I do, if not in those exact same words.

    nk (1d9030)

  238. frosty (f27e97) — 11/22/2021 @ 6:00 am

    Second, they weren’t infected with a less deadly version,

    They were infected with a smaller dose, which because of that, was less deadly than the typical exposure+

    I think the person Paul Montagu linked to is making that mistake because the public health authorities and sratistics are making that kind of obvious error with regard to the coronavirus: Completely ignoring the question of viral dose (which is impossible to determine, or even estimate well, in almost all individual cases, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter.

    You can make assumptions and model it, and you can test it out indirectly. I think it is proven by the fact that as an outbreak goes on in a geographical location, the cases get not only more numerous, but worse. I don;t have any good reference for the latter point but I think it is obvious.)

    It’s a well known medical fact that viral load matters a great deal, but they seem to be very very slow in acknowledging it. (and of course, that was the thing that affected the deadliness of smallpox)

    But here:

    https://www.webmd.com/lung/covid-viral-load

    Could Exposure to a Higher Viral Load Make You Sicker?

    The short answer seems to be yes. The seriousness of symptoms from viral infections is often due directly to the amount of the virus that gets into your body. In addition, studies on two previous coronaviruses (SARS and MERS) showed people exposed to higher loads got sicker.

    Now thhe next point to consider is: When do more people ge a hgher viral load?

    The answer< I think, is when the epidemic worsens. Not only because some people may be exposed more than one time, but because they get exposed to sicker people.

    In the very beginning, when Covid enters into a new population, there are a lot of people who get a small dose, but they, in turn, expose people to a higher dose than they got and so on and so on.

    This is something that most of the people dealing with this haven't thought about. They are treating positive test results as a binary indicator – yes or no, even though the tests tell you quantity also.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  239. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/21/2021 @ 10:53 pm

    The same thought crossed my mind. I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with, but you chose to disagree in your reply and then called me dishonest.

    In light of AJ’s comment about Time I’ll try to give a better response to this question than I might have already.

    This thread started with a discussion about a mandate that is intended to apply to everyone (yes, it’s a condition of their employment, etc., but this is the best fedgov thought they could get away with). We’re also now talking about applying it to all school age children. In that context jim decided he wanted to invoke Washington. Presumably this was to establish a long history of vaccine mandates that would apply to this situation, aka the “this is nothing new” argument with a little “the 1st POTUS did it” thrown in.

    The problem is Washington did not have a vaccine. Washington did what the pro-mandate crowd currently mocks. Washington applied this to military troops who had volunteered and not everyone. You came in after that and at the time it looked like you had taken up the argument that jim had walked away from. It’s not correct to apply the Washington example to the COVID example for a variety of reasons that have been described above.

    I think you misunderstood my comment about dishonesty and I think you misunderstood my attempt to respond to that. At that point there was no reason to continue that thread. I’ll try to restate it here for what’s it’s worth. It’s dishonest to keep asserting, or passively implying, that I’m anti-vax or that I think it’s unreasonable to get the vax or any of this other non-sense. And yes, I read your earlier comment as implying that.

    I’m getting a real sense of deja vu from your exchanges with other commenters here. Why do you think that is?

    I think there are a number of commenters who are wrong and have conclusions based on bad information that they do not want to re-evaluate. If that is pointed out they follow a very predicable cycle and, yes, it’s common. I’m not the only one that points it out. I just might be one of the few stubborn enough to keep at it.

    So, would you rather this be an echo chamber where everyone validates everyone and agrees on all issues and is nice and doesn’t point out when people have drifted into obvious lies. Or would you rather have open, honest, and sometimes contentious discussions?

    I think it’s obvious I wholeheartedly embrace the later. The passive-aggressive approach I keep seeing that is both implied and inferred is both insulting and infuriating.

    frosty (f27e97)

  240. SF: When Covid enters into a new population, there are a lot of people who get a small dose, but they, in turn, expose people to a higher dose than they got and so on and so on.

    Because most people beat it back, especially when exposed to a small viral load. So they can’t expose others to a heavy viral load. But successive cases get to a worse ad worse point.

    It usually starts with a coughing person who came to one population from another population where there Covid is more prevalent, who can expose a few people near him to a heavy load, and many people to a small one. That’s why it initially circulates underground, so to speak. For several weeks, even.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  241. There are blood tests for current viral load, which can be done as part of a study, but I can’t see a way to determine initial exposure, except guesswork.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  242. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/21/2021 @ 10:34 pm

    I didn’t say that government should force anyone (although states CAN, already been decided in a non-fascistic manner). What I said is that if they decide not to, they are terrible, no good, cowardly pieces of crap deserving of whatever happens to them. But that’s their call, not mine.

    I try to be very careful with what I say for just this reason. I was not going for a passive-aggressive jab at you (as much as I dislike it I can’t say that I’m consistent there). In my defense, I’ve also been perfectly willing to directly criticize you.

    You have stated that you are not in favor of forcing people to take the vaccine. I take that at face value. I’ve been very careful to try to distinguish between your approach and jim’s “I don’t want to do it but …” approach (it’s also possible I’ve not been careful enough).

    I understand why you take the position you take and I’m willing to respectfully disagree.

    On a totally different topic:

    already been decided in a non-fascistic manner

    Due process is not guaranteed to be non-fascistic and neither is a democratic process. It’s incorrect to think that fascism can’t be implemented within the confines of the US Constitution as it exists now.

    frosty (f27e97)

  243. This is another link that refers to a “less-deadly form” [of smallpox – here “the disease”]

    https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  244. You’re parsing, frosty. Of course Washington was protecting his soldiers from catching smallpox. He said so in his own words…

    On the 6th of January 1777, George Washington wrote to Dr. William Shippen Jr., ordering him to inoculate all of the forces that came through Philadelphia. He explained that: “Necessity not only authorizes but seems to require the measure, for should the disorder infect the Army . . . we should have more to dread from it, than from the Sword of the Enemy.” The urgency was real. Troops were scarce and encampments had turned into nomadic hospitals of festering disease, deterring further recruitment. Both Benedict Arnold and Benjamin Franklin, after surveying the havoc wreaked by Variola in the Canadian campaign, expressed fears that the virus would be the army’s ultimate downfall. (Fenn 2001, 69)

    At the time, the practice of infecting the individual with a less-deadly form of the disease was widespread throughout Europe. Most British troops were immune to Variola, giving them an enormous advantage against the vulnerable colonists. (Fenn 2001, 131) Conversely, the history of inoculation in America (beginning with the efforts of the Reverend Cotton Mather in 1720) was pocked by the fear of the contamination potential of the process. Such fears led the Continental Congress to issue a proclamation in 1776 prohibiting Surgeons of the Army to inoculate.

    Washington suspected the only available recourse was inoculation, yet contagion risks aside, he knew that a mass inoculation put the entire army in a precarious position should the British hear of his plans. Moreover, Historians estimate that less than a quarter of the Continental Army had ever had the virus; inoculating the remaining three quarters and every new recruit must have seemed daunting. Yet the high prevalence of disease among the army regulars was a significant deterrent to desperately needed recruits, and a dramatic reform was needed to allay their fears.

    Weighing the risks, on February 5th of 1777, Washington finally committed to the unpopular policy of mass inoculation by writing to inform Congress of his plan. Throughout February, Washington, with no precedent for the operation he was about to undertake, covertly communicated to his commanding officers orders to oversee mass inoculations of their troops in the model of Morristown and Philadelphia (Dr. Shippen’s Hospital). At least eleven hospitals had been constructed by the year’s end.

    Emphasis mine. The “vaccine” was also a risk because the mortality rate was 2%-3%, but massively less than the 20% to 30% rate if his men caught the disease, and his army was a volunteer force. If a fella objected to the “jab”, he could walk away.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  245. You get so snippy.
    I still don’t have to do your work for you, no matter how much you whine.
    Go figure it out, or pout… I will get a good night sleep while you fixate.

    Noted, that when I ask you to answer questions, it’s being “snippy”. Anyway, thanks for communicating so clearly that you’re not interested in a dialogue, BuDuh. It’ll save me time going forward.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  246. surprise!

    parade joy rider was out on bail and had a long rap sheet

    not much “anger and concern” yet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10230145/Pictured-Driver-SUV-plowed-crowds-Waukesha-Christmas-parade.html

    JF (e1156d)

  247. 192. nk (1d9030) — 11/21/2021 @ 5:33 pm

    Proper nutrition protects against everything.

    It helps, but we’re talking about extra nutrition, or you can put it that requirements are higher when sick.

    I heard on the radio a claim that Vitamin D3 makes the body more sensitive to insulin.

    This does check ou to some degree:

    https://www.mcmasteroptimalaging.org/blog/detail/blog/2018/10/02/vitamin-d-a-possible-ally-in-the-fight-against-diabetes

    Much more can be found.

    And I know that people with diabetes fight infections less well.

    This is because when blood sugar is too high, it reduces or prevents protein synthesis, which is needed to fight infections.

    (I’m not sure if lower body temperature can substitute for low sugar – except that people get fevers when sick. Maybe lower oxygen levels are needed.)

    Protein synthesis is also needed to heal wounds, or grow capillaries – there are small capillaries in the kidneys, in the heart and in the eyes – also small blood vessels in the extremities especially the legs.

    This explains all the common side effects of diabetes. Getting the right A1C iss not the solution because a good number can result from a combination of periods too high and too low, and that is not good. The average is good but how that average was arrived at is not good.

    Another thing: Rats cannot survive without sleep. When prevented from sleeping by being put on a platform where they drop into water when they stop moving, (fall asleep) they die.

    The body cannot survive long term with the same homeostasis all the time. It must vary because not everything the body needs to do can be done under the same conditions of body temperature and sugar and maybe oxygen level and maybe something else. I don’t know.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  248. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/22/2021 @ 8:10 am

    . If a fella objected to the “jab”, he could walk away.

    I’m not so sure. But even if he couldn’t, I don’t know what means Washington had to stop them.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  249. When I was a kid they told us that excess Vitamin D is deleterious and to abjure supplements and get it only nature’s way from food and sunlight. Have they changed their minds?

    nk (1d9030)

  250. Due process is not guaranteed to be non-fascistic and neither is a democratic process. It’s incorrect to think that fascism can’t be implemented within the confines of the US Constitution as it exists now.

    Frosty, you and I may have different idea of “fascism.” The term is used a lot as a throwaway meaning “stuff I don’t like.”

    To me, “fascism” is an authoritarian regime with certain features and beliefs:

    * that a (generally ethnic) subset of the population is deserving of special privileges.
    * that a (generally ethnic) subset of the population is deserving of group punishment.
    * that the military should have a special role in society
    * expansionism
    * crony economics
    * an extra-judicial security apparratus
    * restricted access to politics

    Of countries in the world today, Turkey seems a prime example of a fascist system.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  251. Part of the problem I have with the whole “natural immunity” thing is that we only have a person’s word for it most of the time. There is no reliable data on whether is actually provide protection, or how much.

    In the case of vaccines, we know who has been vaccinated so we can judge effectiveness should they later get sick enough to seek care. In the case of “natural immunity” the records are sparse, and rely on personal statements for the most part. This means that statistics are hard to ascertain, and that any that are based on the few records that exist have so many asterisks on them that they are nearly worthless.

    Add to that, that people who are acting out a political resentment are quite capable of lying about their experience to further their “revenge.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  252. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/22/2021 @ 8:10 am

    What he said was:

    Necessity not only authorizes but seems to require the measure, for should the disorder infect the Army… we should have more to dread from it, than from the Sword of the Enemy.

    emphasis mine. It’s not parsing. He didn’t say “the men”. His concern was for the army as an effective fighting force and he wanted to reduce causalities from disease. If you read other information from the time you’ll find that he was having trouble recruiting because people thought it would increase their chance of getting smallpox. He was not protecting them from catching smallpox. He was dealing with the fact that if they caught smallpox in the field their chance of surviving would be lower and the danger to the army as a whole would be greater.

    The “vaccine” was also a risk because the mortality rate was 2%-3%, but massively less than the 20% to 30% rate if his men caught the disease

    The “vaccine” was whatever live smallpox they had on hand from other infected individuals and his men caught the disease because they were infected with it. What he did was give them a better chance of surviving the effects of the disease.

    This

    At the time, the practice of infecting the individual with a less-deadly form of the disease was widespread throughout Europe.

    is literally incorrect. This is not nitpicking. It’s an important distinction. The method of infecting the individual used the virus they had available. There was no technology at the time to identify a less deadly variate. The method of infecting the individual was intended to give their body a better chance to fight the virus. They had no way to guarantee that it did.

    frosty (f27e97)

  253. I doubt this pandemic will end any time soon, since some seem intent on prolonging it. Perhaps we have to wait for the unvaccinated to get sick or die, although there is no assurance that natural immunity is a thing. Given that the pandemic persists despite 70% vaccination rates (higher in some places), either the vaccines don’t work, or natural immunity does not work.

    Since vaccine statistics continuously show they DO work, what’s left is the view that “natural immunity” is a crock. Therefore we may have to wait until all the unvaccinated die or become homebound. Not my choice, but it is A choice.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  254. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/22/2021 @ 9:11 am

    We can better test for antibodies. We’re currently not doing that because we’re prioritizing vaccines.

    frosty (f27e97)

  255. Smallpox is different. It didn’t mutate that fast, nor was travel so easy that mutated strains could be spread like wildfire. Exposure to cowpox brought a “natural immunity”, meaning that the antibody reaction to smallpox and its variants was robust.

    None of these things are applicable to Covid, a man-made and supremely well-targeted disease.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  256. We can better test for antibodies.

    The AMA disagrees with you.

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2785530

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  257. #251 nk – The standard rule applies: “The dose makes the poison.”

    Too little oxygen and we die in minutes. Too little water and we die in days. But too much of either can kill us.

    We need Vitamin D to avoid rickets, and other problems, but too much of it can be bad for us. (The skin cells that make a precursor to Vitamin D actually shut off the process, at a certain level.)

    (Fun fact: Vitamin D is used as a rodenticide.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  258. BTW, the driver of that SUV was an African-American man, a minor-league rapper who seems not playing with a full deck.

    https://www.the-sun.com/news/4117021/darrell-brooks-wisconsin-arrested-christmas-parade/

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  259. Kevin M,

    explain Africa where even the worst nations have our results and they don’t have vaccines. The best nations don’t have vaccines either.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  260. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/22/2021 @ 9:03 am

    To me, “fascism” is an authoritarian regime with certain features and beliefs:
    * that a (generally ethnic) subset of the population is deserving of special privileges.
    * that a (generally ethnic) subset of the population is deserving of group punishment.

    This is something nazi’s did and Italians had a slightly different view. However, ethnicity is not an essential part of fascism. Especially, the second one. The focus was nationalism and, yes, that was defined ethnically by the Germans and Italians but that wouldn’t be how it’s defined in the US. Overemphasizing this would be like claiming it’s only marxism when it involves overthrowing a czar.

    * that the military should have a special role in society

    You mean how people are claiming militia means organized army and only police should have guns and only “appropriately trained” individuals should defend people and communities? With fascism it’s not so much about the military per se. It’s about being subsumed by, and being a loyal and disciplined servant, of the state. The military in a fascist state is held up as a role model for this and ultimately all members of that state are to some degree part of the military because they are part of, and servants of, the state. I’m reminded of this part when I hear “the military has to undergo mandatory vaccines” and “you should do your part”.

    * expansionism

    Not an element of fascism. Again, this was an element of certain instances of it.

    * crony economics

    Not an element of fascism but this is closer.

    * an extra-judicial security apparratus

    There are other systems with extra-judicial security apparatus. And in some cases this is something the US has embraced.

    * restricted access to politics

    They embrace a one party system if that’s what you mean but other systems do as well.

    I also don’t think you need all of these for a given policy to be considered fascist or a system to be drifting into fascism. By that standard it’s not fascism until we start get to the genocide (also not an element of fascism).

    Here’s one definition:

    Fascism is generally defined as a political movement that embraces far-right nationalism and the forceful suppression of any opposition, all overseen by an authoritarian government. Fascists strongly oppose Marxism, liberalism and democracy, and believe the state takes precedence over individual interests.

    I highlight the last part for obvious reasons. It opposes Marxism because it’s a competing collective ideology. It opposes liberalism and democracy because it opposes individualism and that’s one of the easiest ways to spot.

    Here’s one that gets to the economic aspect:

    Capitalism is an economic system in which the means to create wealth are privately controlled, as opposed to being owned by the state. … Fascism is an ultra-right-wing political system in which the state exercises complete control over economics and society.

    Given that, you might wonder how fascism is different from communism. The difference is that it allows for private ownership but not private control. Control is via extensive regulatory rules and “private” entities are only tolerated so long as they serve the interests of the state.

    Here is another one:

    As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. The word derives from fasces, the Roman symbol of collectivism and power: a tied bundle of rods with a protruding ax.

    Or:

    Giovanni Gentile (1875-1944) described himself as “the philosopher of Fascism.” He ghostwrote A Doctrine of Fascism (1930) for his country’s prime minister, Benito Mussolini. … He and fellow fascists viewed Italy as a single organic entity and unifying force that bound people together by their ancestry.

    I’m reminded of this one when I hear people say they’ve got a duty to the common good.

    Again, the Constitution doesn’t prevent fascism. The people do and if the people want it they can have it within the framework of the Constitution, especially the “living” version that we’re making up as we go.

    Is this a bit over the top? Possibly, it was more ridiculous pre-covid. Now I’m not so sure.

    frosty (f27e97)

  261. I think there are a number of commenters who are wrong and have conclusions based on bad information that they do not want to re-evaluate.

    Do tell.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  262. Frosty, as I said, there are different versions of “fascism.”

    A very long time ago I took a class studying the various European fascist movements between the wars. Not just Germany and Italy, but much of eastern Europe had these things.

    Nationalism, national exceptionalism, ethnic superiority and a disinclination to tolerate opposition were common. Whether it was Jews, or Gypsies, or Muslims or Slavs that they hated, the structures were the same.

    Those I listed were the common denominators. Not all were actively expansionist, but only from lack of opportunity.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  263. Fascists strongly oppose Marxism, liberalism and democracy, and believe the state takes precedence over individual interests.

    But Marxism also believe in the State, to rather an extreme. The Soviet Union, at least under Stalin, was quite fascist in operation, although their official ideology would deny that. They just favored different groups.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  264. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/22/2021 @ 9:22 am

    The AMA disagrees with you.

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2785530

    The problem isn’t simply that the tests weren’t designed to assess immunity, experts told JAMA. It’s also that the protective antibodies and their thresholds still haven’t been fully worked out.

    This is why I said “better test”. The article seems to acknowledge this might be possible.

    According to Theel, if and when correlates and thresholds of protection are determined, the tests will need to be standardized and calibrated, as has been done with antibody tests for other vaccine-preventable diseases, including tetanus, diphtheria, and measles.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/22/2021 @ 9:15 am

    either the vaccines don’t work, or natural immunity does not work.

    Since vaccine statistics continuously show they DO work, what’s left is the view that “natural immunity” is a crock.

    Or a third choice, neither completely prevents transmission of the virus. It’s a shocker but it’s hard to argue that a place with higher than 70% vaccination and higher transmission rates than areas with lower vaccination rates is completely caused by the un-vaxed. Or a fourth choice, the data is garbage.

    What are you going to conclude when 100% of the people are vaxed and vaxed people are still catching covid?

    frosty (f27e97)

  265. The main thing that Marxism adds is totalitarian control, rather than merely authoritarian control. Fascists are quite willing to allow *some* private power, since it’s a lot of trouble to deal with petty issues. Marxists want to be the only power in society. Hitler tolerated big business’s power in the economy, so long as they served his ends. Stalin did not such thing, going so far as to destroy Soviet agriculture in order to secure power over it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  266. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/22/2021 @ 10:15 am

    The difference between marxism and fascism isn’t that great. Both are collectivist and authoritarian and horrible. Is this going anywhere?

    Do tell.
    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/22/2021 @ 9:57 am

    I have been. It’s what people keep complaining about. You haven’t noticed?

    frosty (f27e97)

  267. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/22/2021 @ 10:20 am

    You’re not sneaking up on a “fascism isn’t that bad if it’s what we need to get everyone vaccinated” argument are you?

    frosty (f27e97)

  268. @269 it wouldn’t be a new amount of authoritarianism, we’ve been mandating vaccines for schools for years. There’s no significant difference in principle.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  269. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/22/2021 @ 11:04 am

    it wouldn’t be a new amount of authoritarianism

    At least you’re acknowledging that it is authoritarianism. But it is more.

    There’s no significant difference in principle.

    That contradicts the first part. No difference in principle means it’s not a new type but rather it is more of the same.

    frosty (f27e97)

  270. @271, Sorry i was confusing. I didn’t mean to validate your views on this, the opposite really. I’m saying we’ve been mandating vaccines for years and it’s generally accepted as a valid exercise of government power.

    You might be on firmer ground if you argued that this was bad policy given the particulars. But the assertion that this either is, or will lead to fascism seems silly to me.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  271. Tucker Carlson’s ‘Patriot Purge’ film on Jan. 6 is full of falsehoods, conspiracy theories
    ……..
    Yet the three-part documentary, “Patriot Purge,” not only whitewashed what happened on Jan. 6, as supporters of former President Donald Trump stormed the Capitol, clashed with police and halted congressional proceedings in an effort to overturn the 2020 election. It also conjured a dystopian, alternative explanation for the insurrection, centered on a mix of conspiracy theories, including that the violence outside the Capitol was spurred on by left-wing instigators and agents provacateurs, and that the siege may have been a trap orchestrated by the FBI. It warned that the same national security apparatus that swelled in the wake of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, is now being turned inward and aimed at taking out Trump supporters.
    ……..
    Here are the main themes from Carlson’s documentary series, fact-checked. Fox News did not respond to a request for comment.
    ………
    The picture Carlson painted is dystopian and scary. “Jan. 6 is being used as a pretext to strip millions of Americans — disfavored Americans — of their core constitutional rights,” he claimed minutes into the series, a theme he returned to throughout.

    But Carlson’s claim about the government weaponizing Jan. 6 to strip millions of their rights isn’t supported by evidence, and he did not provide any. …….
    ………
    Claim: The crowd at the Capitol was just “mom and dad who were mad about what they saw to be an election that they thought was unfair, rigged, fortified, stolen.”
    ………
    The Chicago Project on Security and Threats, a University of Chicago group led by political science professor Robert Pape, has also examined reports on the roughly 650 people arrested through Oct. 25. Research director Keven Ruby said those arrests include 89 members of extremist groups or militias, including 42 Proud Boys, 23 Oath Keepers and 16 Three Percenters.
    ……..
    According to the Justice Department, at least 190 people have been charged with assaulting, resisting or impeding police officers, including over 60 who were charged with using a weapon or causing serious bodily injury. Over 40 face charges for destruction to government property.
    …….
    Claim: The violence on Jan. 6 was led by left-wing agitators and agents provocateurs.
    ……
    The Jan. 6 mob wore and waved Trump-branded paraphernalia as they fought with police and breached the Capitol. Many came straight from Trump’s rally in Washington. Some broadcast live-streams from inside the building. And about 85% were charged in part using evidence from their own or others’ social media accounts, according to George Washington University.
    ……
    Some of those arrested over the riot even took to social media themselves to dispel the claims about antifa involvement. “It was not Antifa at the Capitol,” one rioter tweeted. “It was freedom loving Patriots who were DESPERATE to fight for the final hope of our Republic.”
    …….
    Claim: The Jan. 6 attack was a trap orchestrated by the FBI to trap Trump supporters, and it may have been a false flag.
    …….
    False flag claims require “more than just unsubstantiated assertions” to prove, especially with significant events that create overwhelming amounts of evidence, said Mark Fenster, professor of law at the University of Florida and author on conspiracy theories.

    “Patriot Purge” did not provide that proof. ……
    …….
    Claim: The Jan. 6 rioters are “political prisoners” facing excessive punishment.
    …….
    …….A political prisoner is someone who is arrested on the basis of his or her political beliefs, said Lisa Hajjar, an expert on human rights and professor of sociology at the University of California, Santa Barbara.

    “The Jan. 6 protesters were not arrested for their political beliefs, although those beliefs motivated their actions that day,” Hajjar said. “Rather, they were arrested for breaking the law which is not a ‘politicized’ law. Breaching the Capitol and perpetrating violence are illegal acts, regardless of the political motivations of the perpetrators.”
    ……..
    “More than 90% of the individuals who have been charged for participating in the insurrection have been granted release pending trial,” said Jensen, the University of Maryland terrorism expert, citing the Justice Department’s public database of cases stemming from Jan. 6.

    Of those who have pleaded guilty and been sentenced, only a handful have been set to serve any time in jail, Jensen said, and most were slated to serve only 45 days. “These are hardly draconian criminal justice outcomes,” (Michael Jensen, a senior researcher at the University of Maryland’s National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism) said.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  272. Kyle Rittenhouse: ‘I support the BLM movement’
    ……
    “I’m not a racist person. I support the BLM movement,” Rittenhouse said during an interview with Fox News host Tucker Carlson, a portion of which is slated to air on Carlson’s program on Monday evening.

    “I support peacefully demonstrating,” the teen told Carlson, according to a transcript of the interview. “I believe there needs to be change. I believe there’s a lot of prosecutorial misconduct, not just in my case but in other cases. It’s just amazing to see how much a prosecutor can take advantage of someone.”
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  273. Rip, good summary, thank you for sharing. I hope the facts of this get as much attentions as the exciting lies Tucker is selling.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  274. 274. We all knew Rittenhouse didn’t know much.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  275. The Waukesha, Wisconsin, killer probably did it for sport, like Caligula because he’s been doing that a while.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  276. The FBI traps people but not into committing actualcrimes.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  277. Politifact is the same group that wouldn’t correct their lies about Kyle Rittenhouse despite it being proven wrong by a judge and jury, right?

    They’re another leftist propaganda group like the Grifter Project.

    NJRob (00ff7f)

  278. @279, Amazing how everyone that says anything you don’t like is a member of the enemy and can thus be discounted.

    Time123 (0ef19f)

  279. @280 i don’t think you intended to be ironic

    JF (e1156d)

  280. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/22/2021 @ 11:22 am

    You might be on firmer ground if you argued that this was bad policy given the particulars.

    You mean the arguments I normally make, i.e. that this won’t stop the spread, that this has a high economic and social cost, that this is more about compliance than the disease, that there’s no general history of forcing new vaccines on everyone, that it’s overbroad and doesn’t leave room for particular circumstances, that it isn’t within the normal preview of OSHA, that it being an emergency ruling doesn’t make sense given that we’re almost a year in and they’ve delayed it until after Christmas for political reasons.

    You haven’t been motivated by the particulars in the past.

    But the assertion that this either is, or will lead to fascism seems silly to me.

    Fair enough.

    frosty (f27e97)

  281. The Chinese government now resorted to Tennis champion Peng Shuai having a private half hour conversation with the head of the International Olympic Committee – with him saying he is satisfied she is OK.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/video/chinese-tennis-player-peng-shuai-has-video-call-with-ioc-amid-mounting-concerns-over-he-safety

    https://www.npr.org/2021/11/21/1057811586/in-a-video-call-chinese-tennis-star-peng-shuai-told-olympics-officials-shes-safe

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  282. Frosty, I agree with you about OSHA. I’ve said before that I think using OSHA is an abuse of executive power, bad policy, and if we wanted to mandate this congress should have done so.

    I don’t really find the rest of the points all that compelling, they’re reasonable things to consider for public health policy, but for instance, i disagree that the economic cost of the vaccine is so high that everyone able to take it shouldn’t take it.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  283. JF, You’re correct, it wasn’t irony. I was poking fun at him. I shouldn’t though, it’s frustrating when people you don’t like are correct about the facts, as politico is here.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  284. Politifact is the same group that wouldn’t correct their lies about Kyle Rittenhouse despite it being proven wrong by a judge and jury, right?

    Shooting the messenger and changing the subject rather than addressing their assertions? A two-fer.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  285. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/22/2021 @ 1:23 pm

    i disagree that the economic cost of the vaccine is so high that everyone able to take it shouldn’t take it.

    The overall economic cost of firing people who don’t is higher than the marginal utility of vaccinating a few percent more people. The individual economic costs are certainly higher. And that is only a small aspect of this problem. We’re at the very beginning of having to pay for the economic decisions we’ve made because of the virus.

    Do you have any basis for this disagreement?

    frosty (f27e97)

  286. @285 you sound sure, but i’m not so quick to judge politifact’s take on this

    best to give it a year to see if they’ve retracted their pants on fire rating like they did with the covid lab leak theory

    JF (e1156d)

  287. JF, Cool, let me know when you get some evidence the nutter who attacked the capital were part of Antifa or a false flag or t whoever dumb conspiracy theory you’ve bought into.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  288. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/22/2021 @ 1:24 pm

    JF, You’re correct, it wasn’t irony. I was poking fun at him. I shouldn’t though, it’s frustrating when people you don’t like are correct about the facts, as politico is here.

    It’s also frustrating when people you do like are incorrect about the facts. Did you ever get better information about the details of the Rittenhouse case?

    frosty (f27e97)

  289. @287, I think the number of people who end up fired will be pretty small, and most of them will end up working somewhere else pretty quickly.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  290. AJ and Time123 – I think you will find this comment of mine of interest: http://patterico.com/2021/11/12/weekend-open-thread-110/#comment-2560168 I am looking for ways we can work together against the virus, and think I have found one.

    (I mistakenly put it there this morning in last weekend’s open thread.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  291. @290, I did. The trial was pretty illuminating, though I’ve been distracted by IRL stuff fort he past couple of weeks and couldn’t follow it as closely. I did notice that it took the Jury 3 day of deliberations after seeing all the evidence. That made me less concerned about my uncertainty from initial news reports. If they’d come back in a couple of hours I’d have felt sort of silly.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  292. Jim that was funny. But the afraid of needles thing tends to make the anti-vax/anti-mandate people sort of angry. 😉

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  293. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/22/2021 @ 1:40 pm

    @287, I think the number of people who end up fired will be pretty small, and most of them will end up working somewhere else pretty quickly.

    Ah, so it’s not that you think it’s silly. It’s more that it’s a feature of the plan. I supposed anyone not upstanding enough to get the virus willingly doesn’t really deserve the job they’ve got and now that we know who this lot is we can start sorting them out.

    I’m not sure a plan that requires some unspecified number of people to find new jobs at companies not covered by the mandate avoids the economic costs I’m referring to. But at least you’re thinking everyone will just land on their feet. If that’s the case why not do it earlier. Before the holidays so that everyone gets a good start on the new year?

    frosty (f27e97)

  294. Sammy – You have been complaining about the cost of newspapers. As I have mentioned before, the Washington Post is making all their COVID coverage free.

    And the other day, I thought I saw an offer for a year-long digital subscription for 40 dollars, which works out to be about 11 cents a day. (No doubt there are conditions, such as automatic renewal, but I am sure you know all that.)

    I think the Post is better than the NYT in some ways, worse in others. They have a much wider range of opinion columnists (from Perry Bacon to Hugh Hewitt), and they are better on technology. They are not as good on foreign stories as the Times, but you can make up some of that by looking at the BBC from time to time.

    And, they have about 90 comics available on line if, like me, you like a chuckle from time to time.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  295. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/22/2021 @ 1:42 pm

    Any thoughts on why it took the trial for that? I’m sincerely curious. You seemed so convinced of the facts and so resistant to information you hadn’t already accepted. There wasn’t anything at trial that wasn’t already available to the public.

    frosty (f27e97)

  296. Today in the Post, Aaron Blake addresses the “The most pernicious anti-vaccine talking point”, “that the coronavirus vaccines don’t prevent infections or the transmission of the virus.”

    And refutes it:

    But the talking point is a prime example of misleading with perhaps-justifiable comments. While it’s true that the vaccines don’t completely stop infections and transmissions, they certainly reduce the spread by a large amount. And there is evidence — albeit preliminary and with some counterpoints — that they also stop transmissions in the fewer vaccinated people who become infected.

    In other words, if the goal is not just to prevent the most serious cases — which the vaccines clearly do — but also to stomp out the virus more broadly, the vaccines unquestionably help.

    People are dying because Tucker Carlson, and others, are deceiving them about the overall effects of the COVID vaccines.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  297. This simple analogy may help: Does regular hand washing prevent all infections? No, but it reduces them, measurably.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  298. Frosty, I said calling it fascism was silly. The rest of that comment looks nothing like any comment I’ve made here. I think maybe you have me confused with someone else.

    Time123 (0ef19f)

  299. #294 Time123 – True. But being called a “fascist coward” has two effects on me: It annoys me, and it makes me think the person who resorts to that kind of childish name-calling has a closed mind, and tempts me to “needle them” (pun intended).

    But I think my main point, that there are ways to provide strong protection against COVID — in some organizations — without requiring every employee to get vaccinated, is an important one.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  300. Another poke at 1777 and Washington vs. today.
    You join the French Foreign Legion, you sign their paperwork, you live by their rules. Same went for the Continental Army.
    I didn’t enlist in anyone’s Army and people who want to treat me like I did can bugger off.

    Full disclosure I’m pro vax but consider it a personal choice for COVID.

    COVID and Smallpox are Apples vs Beef
    Small pox had a death rate of 30 per 100, 80-90% amongst infants. Smallpox survivors were often left blind. COVID has a very light death rate even in the most vulnerable elderly 99 per 100,000.

    I’ve never thought the USA would get past 80% vax rate of eligible population, even with mandates.
    All 50 states have done extremely well to get at least one jab into the most vulnerable age groups, all 50 states are over 90% in that category, but after that it really drops off.
    The charts I’ve seen seem to show a lack of real progression in the 18-65 group in about 1/2 of the states. I’ve had three jabs and 60% of W. VA 18-65 have had zero. Something tells me they have no sense of urgency about this and never will.
    https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-tracker

    steveg (e81d76)

  301. #252 Kevin – I think you are right about “fascism”, a terribly slippery word to define.

    I would add this bit of evidence: During World War II, Germany enlisted men of German descent who were citizens of the nations they occupied. So, for example, Luxembourger men suddenly found themselves drafted into Hitler’s army. (They mostly didn’t like it, and weren’t very good soldiers.)

    In contrast, Communism has always been an international movement, just as the song says. (Solzhenitsyn has a good discussion of this difference between the two systems, but it has been years since I read what he had to say.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  302. steveg – So far, more than 750,000 people have died in the United States from COVID. About 60 percent of our population is “fully vaccinated”, and less than 20 percent have had their booster shots.

    What do you think the national government should do about this slowly unfolding catastrophe? What should state governments do?

    (There is a commenter over at Political Betting (where they discuss Britain’s similar problem from time to time) who frankly says that those who are not vaccinated have been warned, and if they die, that’s their fault. (He wants the economy opened up.)

    I admire his frankness, but not his humanity.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  303. Racism and Fascism are two words that are at risk of being misused to a point where we are going to need new more specific words.

    The anti-fascists riot about anything and everything. They are probably better described as anarchists, but they some how got anointed as the poster children against all facism. They oppose nearly everything and everyone except themselves is fascist

    Same goes for racism. self appointed anti-racists have declared everything racism, and nearly everyone except themselves is racist.

    These are words that no longer have meanings. they are jokers in a deck of rhetoric

    steveg (e81d76)

  304. @297, I hadn’t seen a credible report about people shot as he was fleeing the scene of the first shooting. There were a number of assertions made but I wasn’t convinced any of those were accurate. To be fair to the media, I didn’t follow it as closely after the charges were filed and it’s possible I missed some good reporting.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  305. Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead. If you want to call your system Fascism, you have to believe in One Leader. Un Duce, Ein Fuhrer, Un Caudillo. Who holds all the power and trickles it down. And profess it out loud. If you don’t have that, and proudly proclaim it, you might have a despotate, a dictatorship, a tyranny, a police state, a corporate state, a military junta, a whatsis of whatever you care to call it, but you don’t have Fascism.

    nk (1d9030)

  306. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 11/22/2021 @ 3:08 pm

    What do you think the national government should do about this slowly unfolding catastrophe? What should state governments do?

    Which unfolding future catastrophe? For there to be another spike like delta there will need to be a variant that is less mitigated by the virus than current strains. This is possible but there a several reasons that this is unlikely.

    Additionally the statistics you’re using hide the underlying stats related to at risk groups. If those who are not vaccinated are also largely made up of people not at significant risk I don’t see this as an issue. And I believe that is the case. The stats on at risk groups show higher vaccination rates.

    You keep asking this and it keeps getting answered. You just don’t like the answer. They can make Monoclonal Antibody Treatment a priority. They can continue to stress social distancing and awareness (I suspect a lot of places that have high vaccine rates and high transmission rates are falling down on this one; I’m looking at you VT). They can do more sequencing, we are woefully behind on this. They can keep on top of testing (in my area this seems to have fallen off). They can encourage people to get outside and exercise. They can encourage people to improve their overall health and diet.

    Of course none of those things scratch that itch you’ve got to needle people.

    All of the available evidence suggests covid will become endemic. Draconian measures to “stamp it out” can do more harm than good depending on the types of harm you’re willing to acknowledge.

    frosty (f27e97)

  307. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 11/22/2021 @ 2:24 pm

    But I think my main point, that there are ways to provide strong protection against COVID — in some organizations — without requiring every employee to get vaccinated, is an important one.

    Here’s why I find this less than credible; you don’t actually argue this point. I’ve seen you claim it but you don’t actually argue it. Instead when I argue against mandates you argue against me. You make a point of taking a very pro-vax and a very anti-anti-vax position. So much so that anything that isn’t pro-vax is anti-vax. I’ve said on multiple occasions I’m not anti-vax. I’m certainly in favor of providing protections against covid that don’t involve forcing vaccinations. If I suggest any other alternative than 100% vaccination you either ignore it or argue against it. If you’re against mandates why argue? Why have you asked multiple times “what can be done other than vaccinate everyone” if you’re aware of other things?

    frosty (f27e97)

  308. frosty (f27e97) — 11/21/2021 @ 5:33 am

    Unvaccinated doesn’t mean Typhoid Marys.

    The powers that be think it does. That’s because they’re at a loss for how to handle this disease.

    You can hear a promo on TV: What to do if at your Thanksgiving dinner one person is unvaccinated?

    It seems to me the answer is: If it’s only one person: Nothing. If two are, you can have a question. But I guess the idea is maybe the vaccine didn’t work. We know when it’s not likely to work. They don;t distinguish in the main public health messaging

    And of course they are all talking about breakthrough cases. No detail on how serious they are.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  309. The National (Federal) Government is limited in its power over the individual State. The feds can offer policy help, pay for ads, facilitate drug deliveries, purchase drugs, open vax clinics if invited to. etc.

    750K deaths over two years in a population of 333M is not a National emergency. It is a tremendous loss on the individual level for families, but on a National level, it is not statistically significant.

    When you take those deaths by state, they are also statistically insignificant.

    When you get down to the County level, In Santa Barbara County where I live, population is around 440K and over nearly two years we’ve lost around 550 (including prisoners at the Federal Penitentiary) to COVID. Its a concern, not an emergency on the County level.

    steveg (e81d76)

  310. it stole mr. president donald’s election and the vaccine did not even try to stop it, stealing the election i mean, and that’s why the vaccine is stupid, so there

    nk (1d9030)

  311. With the ink barely dry on his acquittals, Kyle Rittenhouse is expected to face another legal battle soon over the $2 million bail posted after his arrest.

    Rittenhouse’s attorneys filed a motion shortly after the verdict, arguing that the money should be given to the teenager because it was raised on his behalf.

    Another party, however, thinks the money belongs to them and staked their claim to it even before Rittenhouse’s attorneys did.

    The Fightback Foundation — an organization run by right-wing lawyer Lin Wood — filed a motion shortly after the verdict Friday asking that the money be refunded to that group. The seven-figure amount, however, was posted by Rittenhouse’s former attorney John Pierce and included contributions that Rittenhouse’s mother, Wendy, helped collect.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-kyle-rittenhouse-trial-bail-money-20211122-icplcpeygzdahhwqmwzs43paju-story.html

    Davethulhu (ffac4e)

  312. Days Of Our Trailer Parks. In Zimmerman’s case, it was his wife who tried to latch onto the money raised for his defense and bail. It’s what those people are like. I expect that Lin Wood’s organization will get the refund when it all shakes out. And sooner rather than later.

    nk (1d9030)

  313. But the assertion that this either is, or will lead to fascism seems silly to me

    For one thing, Biden has been stopped by the courts and it isn’t even clear it will get to the many constitutional issues. The Administrative Procedures Act is there to prevent agencies like OSHA from just issuing orders from their political masters. Due process, described in statute, is required. Only then are the constitutional issues germane.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  314. But the afraid of needles thing tends to make the anti-vax/anti-mandate people sort of angry

    Very few people understand modern medicine, or even the process of trials that leads to these vaccines. Far fewer yet have any idea of how these vaccines are developed and there isn’t rally any way of making them understand. For the most part their knowledge of medicine and how the body functions is at “Plop plop, fizz fizz.”

    So they are open to ever last huckster.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  315. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/22/2021 @ 10:50 pm

    If the OSHA guidelines get shot down we’ll still have what’s being applied to federal contractors. And that’s clearly POTUS trying a loophole to accomplish something he really doesn’t have the legal authority to accomplish. And it’s also an action that would generally be widely criticized by some of the very people now whistling past because they approve of the outcome.

    frosty (f27e97)

  316. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/22/2021 @ 10:54 pm

    Presumably then you’ve been following some of the reveal related to the vaccine trials and the poor data integrity and regulatory oversight?

    frosty (f27e97)

  317. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/22/2021 @ 10:54 pm

    We could get a better understanding of it but the FDA is stonewalling on releasing information on the decision to license the pfizer vaccine.

    But, let me guess, wanting information from the government on something so important is just part of The Great Huck(tm)?

    frosty (f27e97)

  318. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/22/2021 @ 10:54 pm

    If you listen to Fauci carefully he’ll tell you that he hopes the booster will be effective and somehow provide more durable protection than the first two shots but we won’t know until after we do it and we’ve got “the data”. After we’ve collected that data he can decide whether we need additional boosters so that we can collect data on how effective the 4th shot was.

    Very few people understand modern medicine, or even the process of trials that leads to these vaccines.

    Possibly, but Fauci is doing a good job of explaining how he’s just making it up as we go.

    frosty (f27e97)

  319. @317, I think the government as employer or customer has the right and authority to mandate the vaccine for employees or contractors similar to how other employers have that right.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  320. @320, are you unclear on the difference between the level of confidence we get from controlled testing and the level of confidence we get from the results post implementation? Because that difference explains the statement you have a problem with.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  321. @315, Kevin, yes and fascism (and some forms of authoritarianism) is characterized by veneration of a single leader. Even in many collectivist systems opposition to policy was framed as opposition to a single leader and disloyalty to the state/cause/people I’ve seen a lot of ink on how the mandate is good and opposition to it is bad / stupid but I haven’t seen much about how it’s an insult to Biden, a left wing movement or the court as a whole.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  322. And that’s clearly POTUS trying a loophole to accomplish something he really doesn’t have the legal authority to accomplish.

    Perhaps. The courts have been incredibly tolerant of this kind of law. Maybe they claw it back here, maybe not. But the OSHA thing is more tenuous.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  323. I think the government as employer or customer has the right and authority to mandate the vaccine for employees or contractors similar to how other employers have that right.

    It’s more indirect, so it’s not all that clear. Certainly, as a customer, I have the right to refrain from patronizing businesses that behave badly (and not just wrt vaccines). But I doubt I can break a contract on that basis. Maybe those clauses are inserted in government contracts as a matter of course, but you’d rarely see them in private sector contracts.

    Could the government come along and say that everyone working for Boeing gets a 10% raise, paid for by Boeing? In the absence of a contract item, I’d think not.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  324. Time, I think that fascism can happen without a charismatic Leader. The Myanmar junta, for example.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  325. D.C. records 200th homicide of the year, a mark not seen since 2003

    Officials in the District and across the country say there is no simple explanation for the increase in deadly violence. District leaders have offered many possible reasons, including the proliferation of illegal firearms, their use in seemingly minor disputes and pandemic-induced disruptions that slowed courts, emptied jails, curtailed public transportation and ruptured the safety net relied on by many in the most underserved communities.

    Homicides rose in 29 major U.S. cities through September compared with the same period last year, according to the Council on Criminal Justice, a Washington-based institute.

    I expect a lot of blame being put on the NRA, Heller and such, but I doubt the correlation is as strong as it is with the utter demoralization of police forces nationwide.

    [reading the new Bosch book where that “eff it” attitude is widespread in the (fictional) LAPD]

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  326. @326, yes, it’s not a hard rule, but most of the fascist states have a *great leader* or other totem.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  327. @325, i work for a government contractor. According to my company leadership our lawyers reviewed our contracts with the government and we either have to comply with this or they can exit the contracts. I haven’t myself read those contracts, but I expect the lawyers are correct as we didn’t mandate the vaccine below the executive level previously.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  328. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 7:04 am

    It’d be nice if we actually knew more on the controlled/clinical testing and the results post implementation. I don’t think we’re tracking what happens to people who get the booster differently from people who don’t post implementation.

    All I’m aware of is that they’re tracking total booster shots and at some point we will decide whether a 4th is needed based solely on whether the case count, or maybe death count, or maybe some other value, hits some target.

    As far as clinical trials; we’re starting to see information that calls into question the reliability of these clinical trials.

    frosty (f27e97)

  329. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 7:39 am

    Well, if the government said it then it must be true. And if a bunch of corporate lawyers who are so risk averse they probably don’t go to the bathroom alone approved it then it’s got to check out. And if everyone who gave it the green-light don’t really have an issue with things like other people’s individual freedom when their focus is corporate profitability their paychecks then it’s got to be the right thing to do.

    frosty (f27e97)

  330. @330, One of the things that should be happening, but isn’t, is reporting breakthrough cases, hospitalization, and deaths by vaccination status as well is if you’ve had a booster or not. The data is there in places and supports the assertion that the vaccine dramatically improves outcomes, but it’s been slow and is still incomplete.

    @331, Was in response to Kevin’s comment about if the contracts required that or not. Anonymous guy on comment board isn’t a very good source (though I’m being honest) so maybe you want to do some research to see if this is in line with standard contracts.

    As for individual freedoms, I’m free to leave and find another place to work if I feel strongly about it. Some people have, but very few. I’m curious to see how it compares to attrition when we return to in person work as the default.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  331. @326, yes, it’s not a hard rule, but most of the fascist states have a *great leader* or other totem.
    Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 7:36 am

    Sort of like how school children sang the praises of the lightbringer who would stop the rise of the oceans. Or the calls to criminalize “Let’s go Brandon”? Or how criticism of BO or JB or BJ KH is automatically labeled racist because it’s wrong to criticize great leader?

    We’ve even got the beginnings of the “an extra-judicial security apparratus” Kevin M mentioned. It’s no accident that BLM/Antifa are allowed right the wrongs of social injustice.

    frosty (f27e97)

  332. Anonymous guy on comment board isn’t a very good source (though I’m being honest) so maybe you want to do some research to see if this is in line with standard contracts.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 8:18 am

    If we’re all being honest it’s this attitude that got you bad data on the KR case, and that’s not the only example. I’m not sure what your other source is but so far “Anonymous guy on comment board” seems to have a better average.

    frosty (f27e97)

  333. @333 Culture war stuff that annoys you isn’t the same thing as fascist authoritarianism. Also you forgot to add how clerks now say happy holiday instead of Merry Christmas and whatever google has / has not done with the google doodle.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  334. @334 I was saying that I was the anonymous guy on the internet in reference to what I said was communicated from my employeer.

    I’m not willing to provide personal information but I’ll add it was a company wide letter from the CEO saying that we’d reviewed the contract and if we declined to implement the vaccine mandate the government had the right to exit their contracts with us. He could have chosen to mandate it previously but didn’t.

    What evidence do you have that they’re wrong about what the contract required?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  335. As for individual freedoms, I’m free to leave and find another place to work if I feel strongly about it. Some people have, but very few. I’m curious to see how it compares to attrition when we return to in person work as the default.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 8:18 am

    Would you be saying this if the government had decided that, for reasons of national security and the national defense and to help maintain civil order, every household should have at least one gun and they made that a condition of government contracts?

    Of course these guns would be provided for free and the government might even have a program where you could pick up them up from your employer.

    frosty (f27e97)

  336. @337 it would be sweet if the government would buy me a nice gun. Or make company do so. I like guns. I don’t think it’s a very good policy as you’ve proposed it but if we could add some training on safe use storage, marksmanship, and make it budget neutral I don’t have much of a problem. It doesn’t seem very useful, but….free gun.

    Will they buy me ammo also?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  337. What evidence do you have that they’re wrong about what the contract required?

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 8:58 am

    What evidence? Common sense maybe. Of course they’re going to say they don’t want to do it but they have to. Was this contract created pre-covid or post-covid? Either way you think it’s got a clause that says all parties to the contract have to require all employees comply with whatever future vaccine protocols the government deems necessary?

    Without knowing the specifics of the contract and why it would specifically include a clause for vaccine mandates I’ll take a guess and say that at best the contract has some vague language that is currently being interpreted to fit the situation.

    And, without going into specifics, I’ve also got some experience with these statements from upper-management and HR.

    frosty (f27e97)

  338. This statement from the CDC Director summarizes the relative risks clearly, I think:

    [Rochelle] Walensky warned that the data “continue to show that unvaccinated people are six times more likely to test positive for COVID-19 than vaccinated individuals and most tragic, or the vaccine preventable deaths” and “unvaccinated people are at 14 times greater risk of dying from COVID-19 than people who were vaccinated.” Although some breakthrough infections are leading to severe COVID, “overall, when looking at hospitalization rates, unvaccinated adults had nine times higher rate of hospitalizations than vaccinated adults. Infections among the unvaccinated, continue to drive this pandemic hospitalizations and deaths tragically at a time when we have vaccines that can provide incredible protection.”

    There is some useful advice in the following “slides”.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  339. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 9:12 am

    So, that would be a yes then? Those are some interesting principles and that checks out with some of your other comments.

    frosty (f27e97)

  340. @340, I think you’re unfamiliar with just how much control the government can exert on contractors. Clause wouldn’t need to be vaccine specific, could be a general “we reserve the right to make you apply to people working on our contract any rules we apply to direct employees.”

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  341. frosty (f27e97) — 11/21/2021 @ 6:15 pm

    We’ve at least made the easy leap that a person in favor of forcing other people to be infected with smallpox would be in favor of forcing them to take a vaccine if that was an option.

    The question is how serious and how probable is them catching the disease you are trying to avoid.

    In the middle of the night, this night, I heard someone on the radio talk about a Covid study (probably before delta) in which 22,000 people were given the vaccine and the same number a placebo, and more died from the vaccine than from the disease (mostly because there were 4 more fatal heart attacks – 5 versus 1 or something like that – among those given the vaccine. 20 total excess deaths versus only 14 among the unvaccinated.)

    If true, this can be misleading, because only a very small percentage were exposed to Covid during that time period, but all given the vaccine were exposed to the vaccine. And the proper time period comparison is the full length of time someone could be exposed to Covid versus the full time period the vaccine is effective (which should be the entire length of time of the epidemic)

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  342. 342, I think the government could probably make that a condition of employment and roll that down to contractors. The fact that you made it gun related didn’t fill me with revulsion. As I said; I like guns.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  343. “unvaccinated people are at 14 times greater risk of dying from COVID-19 than people who were vaccinated.”

    Over what time period?

    The vaccine could kill a few people almost immediately (by, say, stimulating the immune system in a way so as to cause blood clots) but the disease could have a long time to infect people.

    Also, if the vaccine has a one in several thousand chance of killing someone, (not age adjusted) that maybe could largely be avoided by taking some particular vitamins at the same time.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  344. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 9:40 am

    Do you care what it says? Or is it good enough that it serves the purpose of getting more people vaccinated?

    frosty (f27e97)

  345. steveg (e81d76) — 11/20/2021 @ 9:42 am

    My guess is Wuhan lab workers do their shopping in the Wuhan market. Crowded Asian markets are wonderful places for exchanging viruses.

    The Wuhan Institute of Virology was about 8 mles away. What was near the seafood market was the new location of the Euhan enter fir Disease Control and Prevention, which moved there on December 2, 2019, about one week before the first cases later attributed to the market were detected.

    That would have been, of course, the second lab leak. The first one occurred before Sept 12, 2019, the date when the database of viruses posted by the WIV was taken offline. The first lab leak was of a related but less virulent strain of the virus (but not a direct ancestor) and it spread throughout all China and made its way to the outside world but was pretty much contained everywhere by contact tracing. China has been hiding early samples and the big secret I think is that there was more than one lab leak.

    I read an article the other day that delved into the question of why COVID did not effect Africa.

    Could be that a less virulent strain circulated there or the absence of mass vaccination enabled people to get naturally immunized before delta. Or it’s the anti-malarial drugs many people take.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  346. As I said; I like guns.
    Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 9:43 am

    Yes, because it’s about what you like. I wasn’t expecting revulsion. You’ve made comments on this before. When we find something you don’t I suspect we’ll be back to principles and freedom and rights.

    As much as I like guns and 2A I wouldn’t be in favor of what I mentioned. It should have been an easy no whether you like guns or not. I’m not sure it’s even legal under 3A.

    frosty (f27e97)

  347. #347, On a personal level I hope they’re being honest. Also on a personal level what matters is what the company lawyers think it says, there’s no reasonable expectation on my part they’ll take my opinion on the contract into account. Compared to other items they flow down to us this isn’t outside the realm of possibility. In a previous job my employer required contractors and supplier residents to do almost everything direct employees did, only differences were intentional to maintain their status on contractors.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  348. @349, taking your gun proposal more seriously. I suspect it would be legal but haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about it. I don’t think it would be a good policy and I wouldn’t generally support it as a policy. If it were legal I wouldn’t support today unless their were some pressing need for it that I don’t see. As I pointed out in my semi-serious reply I have concerns about safety, storage, and cost.

    Not every legal action is good policy. For example: State governments can legally set the highway speed at 55 MPH for all roads. This would be a horrible policy.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  349. Regarding the 3rd amendment. If the government says “all employees and contractors must own a gun and keep it in good working order in their home.” I don’t see how that violates the 3rd amendment since we’re talking about the employees home. this seems different then ordering citizens to quarter soldiers.

    Again, not saying I think this would be a good policy.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  350. 84. BuDuh (4a7846) — 11/21/2021 @ 7:06 am

    NYT appears to have “broken” the story, but it is paywalled. Search “Hunter Biden Cobalt” for other sources.

    Many very big NYT stories are syndicated to other newspapers — which may not be paywalled.

    I searched some key words, looking for combinations of words that might not appear in a random story about the same topic (anyway, Google will rank high something identical) and found what appears to be the same story (sometimes they are cut truncated or additional words are added)

    https://indianexpress.com/article/world/how-hunter-bidens-firm-helped-secure-cobalt-for-the-chinese-7633651

    The India Express story has different links.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  351. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10230299/Pfizer-says-Covid-jab-100-effective-stopping-infection-12-15-year-olds.html

    So the vaccine offers 3% additional protection to our young and that means we must mandate it and ban all kids from society if they don’t get the shot.

    That about cover it?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  352. RE: Guns requirement. While that maybe might be put into the contract, just like a contract might require all employees of a specific contractor to have and maintain a security clearance, that doesn’t mean employees would not be required to undergo a background check and be legally allowed to possess them under state law.

    In fact, such a requirement would mandate that a significant number of employees be fired.

    Of course such a thing wouldn’t be mandated, because there’s no sense to it or even a shadow of any sense, and any president who added anything like that to a contract would obviously be playing politics..

    There are political constraints on the president and Congress, in additional to legal ones and procedural ones. Fir example, a 2/3 majority is needed to expel a member of Congress. That tends to prevent that from happening.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  353. contractors and supplier residents to do almost everything direct employees did

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 10:05 am

    This is interesting phrasing. Did you know that the federal “contractor” rules are being applied to all employees at a company with any federal contract independent of whether those employees are on-site or have any direct relationship with the federal work? This extends far beyond job shops who are placing people into federal seats or have people interacting with federal employees.

    frosty (f27e97)

  354. @356, Are you saying it’s bad policy of that it’s not a legal application of the rules?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  355. I don’t see how that violates the 3rd amendment since we’re talking about the employees home. this seems different then ordering citizens to quarter soldiers.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 10:14 am

    I’m not sure it does. It’s a reach. But if fedgov says you’ve got to have a gun in your home for the purpose of national defense at some point you become the soldier that you’re being forced to quarter.

    By framing this as a issue of policy are you conceding that there is no limiting principle? It’s just a questions of the politics?

    frosty (f27e97)

  356. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 11:27 am

    I don’t understand your question.

    frosty (f27e97)

  357. @358, I think the limiting principles would be around if there’s a ‘compelling need’, which I’m assuming is in place for your Gun hypo.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  358. …..if fedgov says you’ve got to have a gun in your home for the purpose of national defense at some point you become the soldier that you’re being forced to quarter.

    Actually you become part of the unorganized militia.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  359. No, the militia period, except that you’re not under the control of the Governor. In fact, you;ve been drafted into the army, with limited duties.

    There is no such thing as the unorganized militia. This ahistorical concept is the result of successful lobbying by the National Guard Association in 1903.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  360. There is no such thing as the unorganized militia.

    10 USC Ch. 12: THE MILITIA

    §246. Militia: composition and classes
    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

    (b) The classes of the militia are—

    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

    My emphasis.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  361. Found by following links on another thread:

    https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/malikah-shabazz-malcolm-x-daughter-obit-1261761/

    The article doesn’t say that Betty Shabazz was murdered by her young grandson. An inconvenient fact, I suppose. It merely says she died in 1997.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  362. Yes, in 1903, Congress redefined militia. It’s nonsense.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  363. Slowly, the militia of the constitution and the early republic got renamed the National Guard after the Civil War. (The following links are a partial cover-up)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Army_National_Guard

    In 1861 Connecticut was the first state to formally adopt the title “National Guard” for its militia, and the term became near universal following the Civil War.[104] By the time the National Defense Act of 1916 mandated the use of “National Guard” as the title for all organized militia, only Virginia had not already adopted it.[105]

    https://www.nationalguard.mil/about-the-guard/how-we-began

    I tell you again there was no such thing as the unorganized militia until 1903. It’s all the result of lobbying. People were confused. This was all done by people who wanted every man to own a rifle. They founded the National Guard Association and the National Rifle Association.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  364. I think we saw a prime example of the unorganized militia defending Kenosha businesses this past summer.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  365. The National Rifle Association was founded on November 17, 1871, in New York, NY and te National Guard Association in 1878 – to tell lies.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  366. There is no such thing as the “unorganized” militia. A militia is an organized group of people, not everyone who might theoretically join it. he word simply was not used the way the National Rifle Association and the National Guard Association said it was, in order to lie about the meaning of the second amendment. They succeeded in enacting their ridiculous a historical definitions into law in 1903. (probably because it helped the Republican Party in certain places, as Civil War veterans were getting older, and many voters were not eligible to join the Grand Army of the Republic. But they could all join the National Guard Association and, in Election Day, go out and vote Republican.)

    The heavy lifting was done at that time (circa 1903) by the National Guard Association. The National Rifle Association took over Second Amendment lobbying in the 1930s.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  367. @356, Are you saying it’s bad policy or that it’s not a legal application of the rules?
    Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 11:27 am

    Is that what you meant? If so

    It’s bad policy.
    Also, unless the contract was written after October 15, 2021 it’s not a legal application of the rules.

    If you’re asking whether it’s legal generally I’ll paraphrase you; I don’t care. You can get an idea of how legal it is when you realize the EO wanted this implemented prior to 10/15 with, or without, contract clauses in place and no one did it.

    No one is doing this because they’re legally required to do it. What’s going on is a version of what Biden did with Ukraine, i.e. if companies want to keep getting money from those fedgov contracts they’ll do what he says. He’s discovered, copied really since this isn’t new, a way to do via contract what he can’t get legislated. Not much of a limiting principle. If we had a decent Congress they’d pass a law against these sorts of contract clauses in fedgov contracts.

    If your bosses told you it was in a contract that existed before 10/15 they are likely misrepresenting the facts of the situation. I don’t think they looked at any contracts. If they did it was a waste of billable hours. They simply realized the obvious no-vax no-money deal they couldn’t refuse.

    frosty (f27e97)

  368. The true story of the origin of the name “Black Friday”

    https://www.history.com/news/black-friday-thanksgiving-origins-history

    Frst, there was another Black Friday, on September 24, 1869. which was a stock market crash.

    The story about businesses going into the black on that day, while “official” is false. So, is also, the slavery explanation which has as much truth to it as false explanation for the “rule of thumb.”

    The real history behind Black Friday, however, is not as sunny as retailers might have you believe. Back in the 1950s, police in the city of Philadelphia used the term to describe the chaos that ensued on the day after Thanksgiving, when hordes of suburban shoppers and tourists flooded into the city in advance of the big Army-Navy football game held on that Saturday every year. Not only would Philly cops not be able to take the day off, but they would have to work extra-long shifts dealing with the additional crowds and traffic. Shoplifters would also take advantage of the bedlam in stores to make off with merchandise, adding to the law enforcement headache.

    By 1961, “Black Friday” had caught on in Philadelphia, to the extent that the city’s merchants and boosters tried unsuccessfully to change it to “Big Friday” in order to remove the negative connotations.

    The term didn’t spread to the rest of the country until much later, however, and as recently as 1985 it wasn’t in common use nationwide. Sometime in the late 1980s, however, retailers found a way to reinvent Black Friday and turn it into something that reflected positively, rather than negatively, on them and their customers. The result was the “red to black” concept of the holiday mentioned earlier, and the notion that the day after Thanksgiving marked the occasion when America’s stores finally turned a profit.

    Now we have Small Business Saturday/Sunday and Cyber Monday.

    And I think Giving Tuesday.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  369. @370, I did mean ‘or’ sorry for the typo. sorry.

    “We’re not going to hire contractors who don’t have a vaccinated workforce going forward.” Doesn’t seem like unacceptable excesses to me.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  370. @370, I did mean ‘or’ sorry for the typo. sorry.

    “We’re not going to hire contractors who don’t have a vaccinated workforce going forward.” Doesn’t seem like unacceptable excesses to me.
    Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 1:00 pm

    I know. “I don’t think this is a big deal” is a common destination. I think someone, maybe nk, was complaining about how long the ride takes in another thread. I’m wondering what would qualify as an excess but I haven’t found the thing you don’t think people can be forced to do.

    “We’re going to force everyone to get injected with a drug we rushed the approval on” does to me. Also, “We’re going to force every company we can to do the same”. YMMV. If this is so on the up and up why not get congressional approval? You know, that whole democratic process thing. Seems like they could have baked that into the infra bill.

    I’ll also point out “don’t have a vaccinated workforce” is a little bit of a fudge. Granted, I fully expect this to be extended to other vaccines and other things fedgov wants to regulate but can’t via legislation. But the federal contract clause is just about covid.

    frosty (f27e97)

  371. @373, If it’s a voluntary employment situation i think the list is pretty broad and includes most legal things. We’ve made carve outs for areas on historical discrimination (race, gender, religion etc) that I accept but I view this through a lens of free association. It’s not an absolute right, but I think there needs to be a compelling reason to limit my ability to hire & fire who I want and do business with who I want.

    Also, i didn’t say “it didn’t seem like a big deal” and dismiss it as a small concern. I said “does not seem like an unacceptable excess” in that I think it’s OK. If you want to hire only people who are vaccinated I think you have that right. Might get tricky with people who have a sincere religious objection but that’s pretty rare.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  372. The https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinese-official-accused-of-sexual-assault-played-key-role-in-setting-up-beijing-olympics-11637767947

    Chinese Official Accused of Sexual Assault Played Key Role in Setting Up Beijing 2022 Olympics

    Zhang Gaoli, accused of assault in a post on tennis star Peng Shuai’s social-media account, headed a steering committee to land the Games

    He has since been downgraded as everyone retires except now Xi.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  373. Is anyone else sad we can’t hear Jonah Goldberg on Fox News anymore?

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  374. “We’re not going to hire contractors who don’t have a vaccinated workforce going forward.” Doesn’t seem like unacceptable excesses to me.
    Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/23/2021 @ 1:00 pm

    I am gladdened that you use the word “excesses.”

    Please forgive me for my parochial vision, as I will be first to say that I am only one blind man touching an enormous elephant, and the issue changes on whether the elephant is a large body (say, a government procurer/major developer as opposed to us Joe Schmoes. That said:

    Since the lock-downs began, family members/friends have had much trouble finding contractors to do work at reasonable prices. The fewer bodies available, the higher the bids to do work. Add a hot remodel market as well as supply and demand forces (redundant and self-reinforcing) and the idea of anyone but the most OCD addled client would entertain such a decision as to limit their choices of contractor. It isn’t like one or one’s family will be in necessary physical contact with the re-modelers.

    Now, I acknowledge the fact that quality of work, and reputation, is always a factor in choice of contractor, as well as other wise considerations; this only reinforces the point that the importance of vax status has been assigned a very low priority, at least in my orbit.

    sure, in a rarified scenario where price is no object, one can find exactly what one wants to obtain from another who is willing to cater to every whim. Especially to those who prize form over function, and seems more like virtue signaling than concern for health; in an arguable way that hiring a contractor based on citizenship would be more virtue signaling than concern for the law especially if the client has an enormous footprint.

    Ok. End blind man’s idea of an elephant.

    felipe (484255)

  375. rcocean (fcc23e) — 11/25/2021 @ 8:37 am

    What a treat for me to see your comment, rc.

    felipe (484255)

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