Patterico's Pontifications

10/19/2021

Conservative Radio Host Said He Constantly Hugged Strangers In Hopes of Catching COVID

Filed under: General — Dana @ 3:09 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Despite his fellow vaccine-skeptic colleagues dropping like flies from COVID-19, popular radio host Dennis Prager, an overweight 73-year old who has not had a COVID vaccination, announced that he was not only infected with the coronavirus but had been trying to get infected:

Early in the pandemic, right-wing radio show host Dennis Prager said he did not mind eating with utensils that had fallen on the ground. Now, after the virus has killed more than 700,000 Americans, Prager has revealed that he’s been actively trying to get a coronavirus infection all along.

On Monday, the 73-year-old host of “The Dennis Prager Show” told his audience that his plan worked. Prager said he tested positive for the coronavirus last week.

“I have engaged with strangers, constantly hugging them, taking photos with them knowing that I was making myself very susceptible to getting covid,” he said. “Which is — indeed, as bizarre as it sounded — what I wanted, in the hope I would achieve natural immunity and be taken care of by therapeutics.”

Additionally:

“I have done what a person should do if one is not going to get vaccinated,” he continued.

“It is infinitely preferable to have natural immunity than vaccine immunity and that is what I have hoped for the entire time,” Prager explained… “That is exactly what has happened. It should have happened to the great majority of Americans.”

Did Prager even consider for one second that, due to his irresponsible actions, he could have potentially infected other individuals while he was pre-symptomatic or even asymptomatic? Of course, he didn’t:

Days before he announced he had tested positive, Prager was in Colorado, where he spoke at a campaign event for Heidi Ganahl, a Republican running for governor. Officials with her campaign told KUSA they were not aware of Prager’s plan to get infected with the coronavirus.

“We are reaching out to all those who attended to make sure they are informed,” Ganahl’s campaign told the station in a statement. “We encourage those who attended … to get tested and follow CDC guidelines if they experience any Covid-like symptoms.”

As for Prager’s treatment plan, you can already guess what it’s been:

He has received a course of Regeneron’s monoclonal antibody treatment and told his audience that he has been following the “Zelenko Protocol,” an ineffectual combination of prescription drugs popular with the far right but not meant to treat COVID, and is now also taking ivermectin, an unapproved medication that is used in animals and humans to treat infections caused by parasitic worms and certain skin conditions, but again, not COVID.

And the irony of it all:

“Not everyone has the time or the inclination to learn what they need to learn and follow through with daily and/or weekly consumption. I think each individual has to make their own cost/benefit analysis of both therapeutics and vaccines. I was not comfortable getting an experimental vaccine produced with brand-new technology that had never before been deployed in humans on a mass scale without long-term safety data.

Ah:

Regeneron monoclonal antibody cocktail is still in the experimental stages and has only been approved for emergency use by the FDA.

I did a Google search for reports on Prager and COVID, and I saw only three right-leaning outlets reporting on it. One actually had a report titled, “Liberals Pounce After Dennis Prager Says He’s Tested Positive for the Coronavirus”. [Ed. Oh, please! It’s not that he got it, it’s *how* he got it.] Clearly, tribalism rules, no matter how insipid the reason.

Anyway, here’s Prager making his announcement:

–Dana

153 Responses to “Conservative Radio Host Said He Constantly Hugged Strangers In Hopes of Catching COVID”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (174549)

  2. Dennis Prager spent a good portion of his show correcting the misquotes and restoring the context that had been carefully removed in the “news” coverage of his statements.
    You might want to go to the recording and see what his side of the story is.

    Karl Lembke (6f7225)

  3. Even better, you could let us know what parts of Dana’s post are “out of context”.

    Davethulhu (6648af)

  4. “… he has been following the “Zelenko Protocol,” an ineffectual combination of prescription drugs …”

    Quite the contrary. The only problem is that is cheap.

    https://www.14streetmedical.com/blog/dr-zelenkos-miracle-cures-coronavirus

    Cleve Watson (b0768d)

  5. He’s old and overweight. I hope he doesn’t get too sick.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  6. This

    Did Prager even consider for one second that, due to his irresponsible actions, he could have potentially infected other individuals while he was pre-symptomatic or even asymptomatic? Of course, he didn’t:

    is not supported by anything quoted in the post. Is that buried somewhere in the full articles?

    frosty (c6fc32)

  7. sen·ten·tious
    /senˈten(t)SHəs/
    adjective
    given to moralizing in a pompous or affected manner.
    “he tried to encourage his men with sententious rhetoric”
    See Dennis Prager

    nk (1d9030)

  8. Dennis Prager, super spreader.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  9. frosty (c6fc32) — 10/19/2021 @ 4:02 pm

    Shouldn’t those hugged by Praeger wonder if he potentially infected them, whether or not it is mentioned in any media?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  10. I also think that when we’re talking about what a 73-year old said, a blood chemistry panel and a brain MRI should precede any attempt to analyze his statements.

    nk (1d9030)

  11. He tried everything except the vaccine. He’ll be OK because he took the antibodies early..

    The Zelenko protocol (or part of it) and the ivermectin are less effective. I don’t know why he would take ivermectin after recovery.

    He now has immunity somewhere in the range of what he’d get between one and two shots of the Pfizer vaccine – which is more than enough.

    I suppose he was careful in monitoring this, and arranged to get synthetic antibodies at a point in the infection when it would kill the virus but not interfere with his gaining immunity.

    He knew it was somewhat risky and I imbue him with rationality on most things.

    Did Prager even consider for one second that, due to his irresponsible actions, he could have potentially infected other individuals while he was pre-symptomatic or even asymptomatic? Of course, he didn’t:

    He’d take that as pro-vaccine misinformation, which it basically is. They don’t tell you how serious a case you could give someone, and it might in most cases give people the equivalent of a vaccination, just like him.

    The problem with that is what happens after the 4th or 5th link in the chain. Each successive case can be worse than the previous one because in each successive case the infection gets further along before it is beaten back and some people, after several iterations, could get exposed to really a lot of virus.

    Also some people have bad immune systems or won’t go to a doctor or hospital or urgent care center soon enough, if they need one.

    By the way, the same kind of transmission can happen with anyone who gets a vaccine that is a live virus, like the polio vaccine.

    https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-health-middle-east-africa-united-nations-619efb65b9eeec5650f011b960a152e9

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00812-z

    Dozens of polio outbreaks in the past few years have been linked to a polio vaccine that many nations abandoned in 2016…

    An old vaccine against polio is contributing to fresh outbreaks of the disease — even though the vaccine was phased out years ago.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  12. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/19/2021 @ 5:15 pm

    Shouldn’t those hugged by Praeger wonder if he potentially infected them, whether or not it is mentioned in any media?

    And if they weren’t previously vaccinated or infected, if he now vaccinated them without the use of a needle.

    Nobody needs to winder if they got sick. They would know.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  13. 8. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/19/2021 @ 5:06 pm

    Dennis Prager, super spreader.

    That;s what he almost certainly wasn’t.

    But a subsequent generation might be.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  14. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/19/2021 @ 5:15 pm

    Yes, they should. That wasn’t the statement made in the post. If you step back for a minute and reread the post and some of the other comments you might get a glimpse of the implied and inferred assumptions.

    frosty (f27e97)

  15. sen·ten·tious
    /senˈten(t)SHəs/
    adjective
    given to moralizing in a pompous or affected manner.

    Read this on COVID:
    http://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/lectures-from-limousine-liberals

    “The sneering contempt many in the left-wing pundit class have demonstrated in their recent rhetoric about the “unvaccinated,” many of whom are lower-income people of color, is in direct opposition to the years of “diversity, equity, and inclusion.” These days, the men and women who worked through the whole pandemic are being shamed and patronized by the very people whose cushy existences they facilitated for a year and a half. The liberal elites who holed up in the Hamptons and didn’t have contact with the outside world for a year are ready to get back to their SoulCycle classes, even if it means firing a few people they once called “frontline heroes.” The irony of the same people who screamed in the faces of policemen at the height of a pandemic turning around to demand that these cops now shut up, stop asking questions, and get vaccinated is almost too much to bear.”

    steveg (e81d76)

  16. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/68/wr/mm6845a4.htm

    It’s true.

    The Prager method of “vaccination” can cause serious cases.

    But it may also be the only way of getting totally rid of this unless scientists genetically engineer a safe(r) version in a lab and release it.

    I don’t think they’d even try that in China, and if they did the variant would get out and become known.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  17. Prager is not alone.

    I said about 5% to 10% of the population would prefer to take an injection of the virus rather than the vaccine.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  18. “The irony of the same people who screamed in the faces of policemen at the height of a pandemic turning around to demand that these cops now shut up, stop asking questions, and get vaccinated is almost too much to bear.””

    This isn’t irony. She’s also not remembering (or gaslighting) who the “scream in cops faces” crowd were.

    Davethulhu (6648af)

  19. oh my the outrage

    there are literally thousands of denis prager’s coming across the southern border every day, let in through catch and release by the moron president you elected

    I did a Google search for reports on Prager and COVID, and I saw only three right-leaning outlets reporting on it.

    they clearly didn’t realize how breathtakingly important this story is

    JF (e1156d)

  20. “I don’t wear a mask for the same reason I don’t wear underwear … things gotta breathe.” Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!

    Dennis Prager, the Florida commando, I take them both equally seriously.

    nk (1d9030)

  21. I take them both equally seriously.

    Make that: I respect them both equally.

    nk (1d9030)

  22. I thought we didn’t do what aboutism :)
    You know how when you do a multiple word Google search for is Dr. Fauci making millions from COVID?, you see the note that says “must include COVID”

    The point is that these great people who were exposed to COVID on a daily basis while the rest of the country rode it out on their couches were heroes who until they decided not to get vaccinated.

    I accept that many people on the other side of the political spectrum “backed the blue” until they didn’t get their way at the Capitol, but that doesn’t have anything to do with COVID.

    steveg (e81d76)

  23. Is that buried somewhere in the full articles?

    Who knows how many constant hugs he gave strangers in his efforts to catch Covid between the time he was infected to the time he was diagnosed, but I’m taking Prager at this word.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  24. If a strange fat guy came up to me and started hugging me I’d probably kick him in the groin a couple of times. Nobody invades my personal space without an invitation, and certainly not a stranger.

    Rip Murdock (141030)

  25. A Google search on “Prager + COVID” yielded about 4.2 million hits; a Bing search almost 4.4 million.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  26. A lot of people also had to wait four, five, six months so the donut-dunkers would get their shots first.

    I don’t know about other places, but Chicago is not making them get vaccinated. The CPD just wants to know if they’re vaccinated, and if they’re not to get tested for Covid twice a week. Before they go out and kill a 70-year old lady who did not come to a full stop before making a right turn on red.

    nk (1d9030)

  27. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 10/19/2021 @ 6:34 pm

    What’s a constant hug?

    frosty (f27e97)

  28. Men who make it a point to hug people, especially strangers, are way too touchy feely and are probably insecure about themselves.

    Rip Murdock (141030)

  29. Paul, why would you take someone who makes so much disinformation at their word?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  30. Hugs, Myanmar, and Obama: During Myanmar’s brief period of liberalization, President Obama met and hugged State Counselor (prime minister) Aung San Suu Kyi.

    Which he shouldn’t have done. In Myanmar adult hugs are something only husbands and wives do — in private.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  31. Frosty @ 6,

    Rather disingenuous.

    Dana (174549)

  32. Time123 (9f42ee) — 10/19/2021 @ 3:58 pm

    I second that.

    felipe (484255)

  33. A Google search on “Prager + COVID” yielded about 4.2 million hits; a Bing search almost 4.4 million.

    Jim Miller (edcec1) — 10/19/2021 @ 6:41 pm

    Yes, there’s a slew of hits. How many right-leaning sites did you carrying the story?

    Dana (174549)

  34. *see*

    Dana (174549)

  35. This administration is so demented they decided to “raise” a mentally ill person to 4 star admiral status.

    NJRob (d5c117)

  36. Dana (174549) — 10/19/2021 @ 7:15 pm

    How? You’ve made a statement that isn’t supported by any quote you provided in the post. You’re clearly trying to criticize Pragger, which is fair, and there is material there to do that. Why get out over your skies in the process? Why mind read when you’ve got more than enough without that?

    Do you have any evidence he didn’t consider that he would infect other people? Your whole post is about him trying to get infected so you’ve acknowledged that he understands the process.

    frosty (f27e97)

  37. and yes I meant for that to go to moderation

    Dustin (92e1f8)

  38. (Back from Jeopardy.) #34 Dana, I just glanced at the lists, since you had already checked for ideology. And I trust you. Mostly.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  39. #36 Were you worried by the narcissistic, sociopathic liar heading the previous administration?

    (For the record, I would not have made him a 4-star admiral, either.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  40. @Frosty@37 Unfortunately, there are only two possibilities. Either he thought about it and decided it was OK to risk others, or he didn’t think about it. Personally I think Dana is giving the more generous interpretation.

    Nic (896fdf)

  41. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 10/19/2021 @ 8:06 pm

    Been worried about that for the last 25 years or so. In retrospect I should have been worried for years before that too.

    frosty (f27e97)

  42. #36 Were you worried by the narcissistic, sociopathic liar heading the previous administration?

    (For the record, I would not have made him a 4-star admiral, either.)

    Sigh. Levine was confirmed by the Senate as Assistant Secretary for Health for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. If the appointee is already a member of the Commissioned Corps of the U.S. Public Health Service, the rank of Admiral is automatic. There’s a bunch of them around. Trump’s doctor was one, and retired as a Rear Admiral. If Levine had been a civilian MD, he would have remained just plain Assistant Secretary. No uniform, no Commissioned Service rank.

    nk (1d9030)

  43. I was not comfortable getting an experimental vaccine produced with brand-new technology that had never before been deployed in humans on a mass scale without long-term safety data.

    OK, and why not the J&J vaccine then? No mRNA involved.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. BTW, this is an incredible insult to the 700,000 dead and their families and friends.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  45. they clearly didn’t realize how breathtakingly important this story is

    Certainly they’ll ignore it if he dies.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  46. #36 Were you worried by the narcissistic, sociopathic liar heading the previous administration?

    I’m used to that by now.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  47. Has it been determined if Prager caught Covid from a vaccinated individual? Responsible contact tracing should tell us.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  48. Has it been determined if Prager caught Covid from a vaccinated individual?

    That’s a thin straw (man).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  49. How would you feel about this if your wife or husband had died before there was a vaccine? I hope he gets slapped a lot.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  50. Prager is a idiot.

    mg (8cbc69)

  51. Possibilities:

    1. Prager is lying, doesn’t have Covid and it’s all just a fraud.
    2. Prager is lying, he has Covid but he was secretly vaccinated a while ago.
    3. Prager has Covid, but has got actual medical care and will recover.
    4. Prager has Covid, but is using quack remedies and will get very sick, but recover as a long hauler.
    5. Prager has Covid, but is using quack remedies and will get very sick, then die.

    Certainty: The man is a colossal, world-class assh0le. The ungrateful jerk refused what 400,000 people didn’t have a chance at before the was a vaccine, and is pissing on their graves.

    I’ve decided I’m hoping for #4.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  52. lucky for for dennis prager the democrats are still controlled by the corporates establishment deep state who’s job is to protect conservative even right wing crazies from the left of their party. We will see how long pelosi biden and the dnc can keep AOC and the ever increasing squad at bey.

    asset (5bdd49)

  53. What’s a constant hug?

    Prager’s words, not mine, frosty.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  54. Contact tracing actually is pretty impossible, unless there are very few cases around. In some cases
    we would really like to know – like about Trump/ I think they more or less figured it out there.

    With Dennis Prager they seem to have fixated on one event but it may not be at all related.

    A contact chain can be reconstructed with people who associate with each other.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  55. Paul, why would you take someone who makes so much disinformation at their word?

    I think he was sincere about wanting to catch Covid, but he’s conservative talk show host in a competitive environment, so I doubt the sincerity of his motives.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  56. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 10/20/2021 @ 5:20 am

    Prager’s words, not mine, frosty.

    Nouns, verbs, adverbs, and adjectives. It’s so complex who can make sense of it all?

    frosty (f27e97)

  57. Frosty,
    I assume “constant hug’ was mile hyperbole intended to convey that he was hugging people with great frequency.

    Similar to how a roofer might say. “After the big storm i was getting called constantly”. When “frequently”, or “more often then usual” would be more literally accurate.

    Were you trolling or did you honestly not understand that?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  58. *mild not mile

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  59. Nouns, verbs, adverbs, and adjectives. It’s so complex who can make sense of it all?

    Thanks for the grammar-nannying, frosty. I took “constantly hugging” and “constant hugs” as close enough to convey a similar meaning. If you want to debate that, you can do it with yourself. I’m just not that interested.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  60. Paul, I reached the same conclusion as you about what he meant, but I assumed it was similar to the phrase “in a constant state of X”

    Time123 (a5a857)

  61. Time123 (9f42ee) — 10/20/2021 @ 6:44 am

    Are you saying you think

    After the big storm i was getting called constantly

    and

    After the big storm i was getting many constant calls

    are equivalent statements? Is this really turning into a middle school English exercise? You understand that the problem isn’t swapping out “constantly” for “frequently” right?

    Yes, I’m having fun with the grammar mix-up and also pointing out that you shouldn’t rearrange words in a way that changes the meaning and also pretend that you aren’t changing the meaning.

    frosty (f27e97)

  62. frosty (#62):

    In my experience, people making constant comments like your spent their youth getting stuffed into lockers. People say that even happens to them when they are older. In 2022, I think a lot of people might be stuffed into lockers, if this kind of commenting constantly isn’t looked into seriously.

    Hm, you are right, writing like this is fun. And nobody can prove anything….

    Appalled (1a17de)

  63. Frosty, no I’m not saying that.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  64. Fox News’ Cavuto tests positive for COVID-19, urges vaccines
    ………
    “While I’m somewhat stunned by this news, doctors tell me I’m lucky as well. Had I not been vaccinated, and with all my medical issues, this would be a far more dire situation,” Cavuto said in a statement released by Fox News.

    “It’s not, because I did and I’m surviving this because I did. I hope anyone and everyone gets that message loud and clear. Get vaccinated, for yourself and everyone around you,” the journalist said.

    Cavuto, who had open-heart surgery in 2016 and was treated for cancer in the 1980s, was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in 1997.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (141030)

  65. “The sneering contempt many in the left-wing pundit class have demonstrated in their recent rhetoric about the “unvaccinated,” many of whom are lower-income people of color, is in direct opposition to the years of “diversity, equity, and inclusion.”

    The vaccines are available to all, free of charge. Great efforts have been made to bring them within easy reach of all. Who is sneering at “low-income people of color” whose circumstances might have made it slightly more challenging to get vaccinated?

    It takes a lot of misanthropy to suggest that encouraging vulnerable populations to get a free prophylactic against a disease that might kill them is a way of showing contempt.

    If there’s contempt, it’s for the well-off white people who have been vocally discouraging other people from getting vaccinated.

    The weirdest thing is the people who love to tout the vaccines as a great achievement of Trump (claiming preposterously that they wouldn’t have been produced under any other president) — and then express outrage that any non-Trump encourages wide vaccination.

    Radegunda (96c736)

  66. Frosty, None of the roofers I know would say they got “many constant calls”. But if one did I would conclude he meant he was getting a lot of calls.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  67. @66, I have plenty of contempt for anyone who is refusing to get vaccinated without a good reason.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  68. You see, Radegunda, it’s like this:

    Trump had his orders from Putin to kill as many Americans as possible. On the other hand, both Trump and Putin wanted Trump reelected. So they decided that Trump would fund and expedite a vaccine. But after the election was over, he would do his best to see that as few Americans as possible lined up for it.

    Well, the best laid plans of borshts and oranges …. Trump did not get reelected. So they switched to Plan B. Trump could still kill off his true believers and all the innocent Americans they had contact with, destroy the economies of Republican states, and turn the Republican Party into a minority party for the foreseeable future. After all, it was not the Democratic Party that had brought down the Soviet Union.

    nk (1d9030)

  69. you shouldn’t rearrange words in a way that changes the meaning and also pretend that you aren’t changing the meaning

    One shouldn’t pretend that other people are deliberately misrepresenting someone else’s essential meaning if they don’t simply quote exactly the same words in the same order.

    Radegunda (96c736)

  70. “I love standing in long lines” can also mean “I hate standing in long lines” Truly language is a mystery.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  71. OTOH, In-N-Out is doing the right thing in San Francisco. Contra Costa County is mandating that restaurants determine the vaccination status of all customers and refuse admittance to the inside area to any who cannot prove vaccination.

    In-N-Out refuses to be vaccination police. As a result, the county shut down one of their locations. It has since reopened, with the sit-down area closed.

    “As a company, In-N-Out Burger strongly believes in the highest form of customer service and to us that means serving all customers who visit us and making all customers feel welcome,” he said. “We refuse to become the vaccination police for any government.”

    Wensinger called San Francisco’s mandate unreasonable, invasive and unsafe for employees to “segregate customers” into groups who can and can’t be served.

    “We fiercely disagree with any government dictate that forces a private company to discriminate against customers who choose to patronize their business,” he said. “This is clear governmental overreach and is intrusive, improper and offensive.”

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-10-20/in-n-out-covid-vaccine-fight-may-trigger-california-battle

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  72. The vaccines are available to all, free of charge. Great efforts have been made to bring them within easy reach of all. Who is sneering at “low-income people of color” whose circumstances might have made it slightly more challenging to get vaccinated?

    I had a dear friend of 30 years who was a “low-income person of color”, living in Chicago. Vanessa had just been married when Covid struck. I had plans to visit her in late March, but of course I didn’t.

    By the end of March 2020, her elderly mother had contracted Covid and died, and she and her new husband were both in the hospital fighting for their lives. He survived, she did not, dying all alone on a ventilator in the ICU.

    Vanessa deserved better. She deserved a vaccine and, had she not been struck down in the first wave, she probably would have taken the precautions necessary to live until it was available.

    It absolutely fukking frosts me that there are assh0les in this world who want to score political points over their fukking ingratitude to the people who created these miracle vaccines.

    It’s pissing on Vanessa’s grave, and the graves of 725,000 other Americans.

    Because Trump, of all things. Is there anything about the man that is not grotesque?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  73. @73, Kevin, I’m sorry for you loss and I understand where you’re coming from.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  74. score political points over their fukking ingratitude to the people who created these miracle vaccines

    and to do so while claiming that their cult hero was solely responsible for the development of the vaccines.

    Radegunda (7f4ba9)

  75. A few comments here brought this to mind:

    Stop pretending bad faith is good faith for the purposes of “politeness” or “dialogue.”

    Dana (174549)

  76. Given that Popehat is the epitome of the leftist bad-faith actor and maintains a blocklist that might as well just be an “Approved Commenters Feed”, it’s pretty rich coming from him.

    But it’s also ultimately just an excuse to run from the fight. You can’t tell what spirit an argument is being made in until you actually engage with it. It’s the Jesse Eisenberg uncertainty principle, related to the feeling you get when you see Jesse Eisenberg in a movie and wonder “What’s his appeal?”

    Faith Regulation Expert (c294aa)

  77. If there’s contempt, it’s for the well-off white people who have been vocally discouraging other people from getting vaccinated.

    Well-off white folks have been vociferous lately, opposing all kinds of ills they see people like their maids and nannies having to overcome. Such as this image of a white, um, gurl, supporting the rights og black trans people against the evil Netflix.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  78. A religious zealot that covid d is hunting down along with the rest of the unvaccinated.

    asset (a97dd6)

  79. Well, the best laid plans of borshts and oranges …

    Classic nk. Mark Twainesque.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  80. Either he thought about it and decided it was OK to risk others, or he didn’t think about it. Personally I think Dana is giving the more generous interpretation.

    Nic (896fdf) — 10/19/2021 @ 8:13 pm

    Well said, Nic. I think frosty was being rather captious in this instance.

    Instead of owning it, he has neglected to respond to you, even though he managed to respond to people who commented after you.

    These kinds of things help me determine whether certain commenters are worth engaging.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  81. There are so many ways Prager shows himself as a sociopath.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. Can you elaborate, Kevin? My best friend is a devoted listener to Prager, and it would be nice if I had some information I could invoke when talking to him.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  83. “Stop pretending bad faith is good faith for the purposes of “politeness” or “dialogue.””

    I’ll give that a big AMEN. Life is short, don’t feed the trolls. Being intentionally obtuse is never becoming.

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  84. Time123 (9f42ee) — 10/20/2021 @ 8:53 am

    “I love standing in long lines” can also mean “I hate standing in long lines” Truly language is a mystery.

    The word “love” has to be said in a special way, part of which is lengthening the time the word is pronounced, or the whole sentence has to be said in a way so that it understood that you mean the opposite of what you are saying (perhaps from context, but I think it could also usually be detected out of context.)

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  85. 44. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/19/2021 @ 8:49 pm

    why not the J&J vaccine then? No mRNA involved.

    I don’t think Prager was following things so closely and he didn’t understand how the J&J vaccine worked. Besdies that wasn’t the only case for picking the virus as opposed to the vaccine. The virus, authoritative sources said, gave you better immunity than the vaccine. Which is true for a single dose. It’s also true that a single dose of the vaccine is pretty good.

    These vaccines are aiming for something most vaccines do not try for.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/14/us/politics/fda-moderna-vaccine-boosters.html

    Aiming to prevent even mild cases, he added, “is a high bar to which we hold no other vaccine.”

    TGhe person quoted here is Dr. Paul Offit, “an infectious disease expert with the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia.”

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  86. norcal (b9a35f) — 10/20/2021 @ 8:28 pm

    I asked a simple question and instead of trying to answer it I was accused of trolling and acting in bad faith.

    Nic, is trying to pretend that Dana’s post that is clearly meant to criticize Pragger is actually trying to be generous. Somehow

    Did Prager even consider for one second that, due to his irresponsible actions, he could have potentially infected other individuals while he was pre-symptomatic or even asymptomatic? Of course, he didn’t:

    is supposed to be a “more generous” interpretation? Is that the tone you’re getting from that? The other options are that he was doing it on purpose which has no evidence to support it, and some evidence against, or he wasn’t aware which this post contradicts. Picking either of those options would have been more difficult to support. This version wasn’t picked because it was the most generous. But the question isn’t whether it was generous or not. The question is whether that statement can be supported at all. The quote that follows it doesn’t support it. I’m being captious for expecting a statement to be supported by something or noticing that the quote that was supposed to support it doesn’t?

    Nic’s post didn’t require a response because it was just an attempt to avoid answering the original question by inventing a context the post doesn’t have.

    Using your logic, Dana posted after Nic’s comment and also ignored it and went with an accusation of bad faith instead. Dana hasn’t responded to the original question at all other than to say the question is disingenuous and in bad faith. Asking someone to support a statement they are making is perfectly reasonable and ad hominem isn’t a response.

    frosty (f27e97)

  87. The virus, some Internet sources said, gave you better immunity than the vaccine.

    FIFY, and note that he’s also taking the quack cures.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  88. Aiming to prevent even mild cases, he added, “is a high bar to which we hold no other vaccine.”

    1) Some prior vaccines contain the virus itself and therefore cannot easily aim for that target. Some people are even advised not to take those vaccines, as their risk is much higher of contracting the disease from the vaccine.

    2) Most modern vaccines contain no live virus, and have varying degrees of effectiveness. Multiple vaccinations improve every vaccine’s effectiveness.

    3) The polio vaccine, administered as a series of four doses is considered to be 100% effective.

    4) The rabies vaccine is 100% effective as applied, even if applied shortly after exposure.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  89. Can you elaborate, Kevin?

    A sociopath is someone with limited or non-existent empathy for others. That Prager would knowingly expose others to Covid indicates such a lack of empathy. That, after 725,000 people have died from a disease, he would play games with the same disease, dispute the need for a vaccine, and act in a way that mocks the grief of the survivors demonstrates a very limited understanding that other people are real.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  90. “The virus, some Internet sources said, gave you better immunity than the vaccine.”

    But they are good sources, and almost certainly the truth.

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

    SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and February of 2021. The increased risk was significant (Probability smaller than 0.001) for symptomatic disease as well.

    Note: I had to change a smaller than sign to the words “smaller than” in order to properly format this here and I also unabbreviated the letter P.

    See also:

    https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital

    …Israelis who had an infection were more protected against the Delta coronavirus variant than those who had an already highly effective COVID-19 vaccine…The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label.

    The public health authorities don’t like this fact, because maybe it could encourage people to choose to be infected, and because maybe they are really, really, pro-vaccine.

    That’s the thing – some of his sources are really good and official advice does not yet agree with them. But there’s a limited amount of time they can hold out and you can tell that the FDA and CDC are going to have to concede that the virus is better than the vaccine. That is true, of course, only in retrospect. Looking forward, it’s not a safe way to gain immunity, although some pediatricians may seriously prefer it for children aged 3-11 or so because the immune response from the vaccine may be too strong, which is probably less likely in the case of a real infection.

    The vaccine companies are coming up with a reduced dose, which they hope will tilt the balance against the virus and in favor of the vaccine for children under 12. The risks are small either way, but may require medical attention either way.

    If a child reaches the age of 12 without being infected, the future recommendation then probably will be that they should get the adult vaccine.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  91. and note that he’s also taking the quack cures.

    And a real one, too – the monoclonal sntibodies. Some, or many of the news stories don;t mention that. They’d rather sneer at him, and at these remedies, which are probably not useless, just not the best thing.

    The fact that Dennis Prager took the ivermectin and all components of the Zelenko protocol <b< on top of the antibodies indicates that he’s medically illiterate here.

    AS for his infecting others, the problem there is he could create a chain of infection, and at the end of thw chain…but he would most likely never know. This is like someone parking his car some place where later on it could cause an accident.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  92. 89/ Since one person cannot pass on rabies, the vaccine starts out being 10% effective in that sense in humans..

    We’re talking about a vaccine preventing someone from getting even a mild infection. Dr. Offit said that’s never a requirement for a vaccine, but he doesn’t know if that’s the goal that people who are for the boosters want.

    The CDC says about the rabies vaccine (it may of course, simply be playing it safe and telling which it likely is requires more study)

    https://www.cdc.gov/rabies/exposure/type.html

    A currently vaccinated dog, cat, or ferret is unlikely to become infected with rabies.

    Unlikely means they are not saying it is 100% effective in preventing infection.

    They changed the polio vaccine because it was getting to be that the reason it was not being eliminated was the vaccine. The issue you have there is the vaccine causing an outbreak (impossible with the mRNA vaccines) not of the vaccine nor preventing the person getting the vaccine from getting a separate infection.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  93. Did Prager even consider for one second that, due to his irresponsible actions, he could have potentially infected other individuals while he was pre-symptomatic or even asymptomatic?

    He was, presumably, trying to get it from such people. And it’s not whom he would directly infect before he knew he had it – because that’s highly likely to give a minor or treatable case to someone who was not vaccinated and that might be better than them waiting till they got exposed to a really strong dose of virus – it’s what could happen somewhat down the road.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  94. Kevin M @52,

    Possibilities:

    1. Prager is lying, doesn’t have Covid and it’s all just a fraud.
    2. Prager is lying, he has Covid but he was secretly vaccinated a while ago.
    3. Prager has Covid, but has got actual medical care and will recover.
    4. Prager has Covid, but is using quack remedies and will get very sick, but recover as a long hauler. 5. Prager has Covid, but is using quack remedies and will get very sick, then die.

    6. Prager has Covid, but has got actual medical care, as well as some semi-quack remedies, and will recover.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  95. It figures: Prager stands behind the Great Barrington Declaration, which is a scientific crock.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  96. Nic’s post didn’t require a response because it was just an attempt to avoid answering the original question by inventing a context the post doesn’t have.

    Frosty’s post didn’t require a response because it was just an attempt to avoid answering the very clear context of the post.

    FTFY.

    Dana (174549)

  97. 96. Why does this website

    have to say that every single assertion in the great Barrington Declaration is wrong?

    Where it goes wrong is in saying more vulerable can be protected from infection by special attention.

    The Great Barrington Declaration assumes no vaccine exists and ximpares its remedy – selective protection while letting the virus spread among the less vulnerable people – is better than lockdowns. Which may be true. Because lockdowns end.

    It uses no mathematics I think, not even made up numbers.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  98. 93. Rabies, is not transmitted from human to human because of the way it is transmitted. So we can that the rabies vaccine is 100% effective in preventing further transmission between humans.

    The CDC is not willing to say that the rabies vaccine it is 100% effective in preventing dogs from getting rabies, but that may just be the CDC being the CDC.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  99. Dana (174549) — 10/21/2021 @ 9:30 am

    Frosty’s post didn’t require a response because it was just an attempt to avoid answering the very clear context of the post.

    You’re agreeing with me and disagreeing with norcal? I don’t think any post requires a response. I think norcal’s “own it” logic is flawed. Inferring something from someone’s willingness or ability to reply to every post doesn’t make sense to me.

    Why do you think Pragger didn’t consider that his actions could infect other people? It seems like, based on everything you posted, that he did understand that was a risk.

    frosty (f27e97)

  100. I don;t think Dennis Prager factored in the question of whether or not there would be more cases of Covid than otherwise (besides himself) if he got infected. You know there are people saying everybody is going to get it anyway, if not vaccinated. Dennis Prager seems to be advising people to get relatively mild cases.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  101. Appalled (1a17de) — 10/21/2021 @ 11:44 am

    Not the actions of a man who is giving any thought for others in his quest for COVID.

    Yes, I got the details of that from Dana’s original post. I get the feeling that I’m the only one noticing some of the distinctions in these various positions.

    My view isn’t distinctly different from Sammy’s. For example, based on everything I’ve read I’d say it’s possible Pragger did give a thought to others, just not the thought you’d want him to give. I’d say he might even think he’s helping people because he thinks natural immunity is better than the vaccine. He certainly thinks it’s better for him. We can debate whether that it correct or not but that’s different from “did he consider .. of course not”.

    We could also debate various forms of agreement, i.e. what are you agreeing to by sharing a space with another person, etc. Well, now that I’ve typed that, and thought about, that probably isn’t true. It’s wishful thinking that we could have a discussion like that here.

    frosty (f27e97)

  102. frosty —

    I read what Prager did in Colorado and I see someone who has moral (and maybe legal) liability for any illness that erupts in that Colorado gathering. Is giving someone COVID who didn’t consent to the gift “caring” for them, in any sense of the word? I think the legal term is “reckless endangerment” if he didn’t provide notice of his intentions.
    .

    Appalled (1a17de)

  103. There seems to be a simple truth that’s missing here about Prager. He was deliberately not protecting himself from others, if we accept that he “constantly hugged” people he did not know, which has to mean that he was also not protecting these strangers from himself. The germs don’t flow in just one direction.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  104. Appalled (1a17de) — 10/21/2021 @ 2:08 pm

    So, we’re past the “he didn’t even consider” part? We don’t have to pretend we can read minds and what not?

    Is mandating the vaccine, giving a “gift” as you say, however small the risk of side effects, caring for someone? I think there’s a lot of people that would say yes and are perfectly willing to impose their views on others no matter the consequences. I haven’t kept track of everyone’s position but I’ll assume you’ve got consistent moral and legal concerns there?

    If he thought being exposed to the actual virus was the safest and most effective way to build immunity, both individual and collective, then yes. It can be said to be “caring” for someone in some sense of the word. It’s obviously not something you agree with presumably because you don’t think it’s the safest and most effective way to build immunity. Fair enough. I’m not saying I agree with it either. But you do understand that someone can have the same intention as you but still come to a different conclusion?

    Wasn’t he outspoken against the vaccine all along? If so I wouldn’t go as far as you on “didn’t provide notice”. If I know someone is against the vaccine my assessment of the risk posed by that individual goes up. This issue of having it and not announcing it right away is a problem. For me it’s the biggest problem here but I’m not sure I think it’s as big a deal as you. I’m also wondering how many people really care about it. I suspect that everyone worked up about it would be just as worked if he had announced earlier.

    The core issue I see other people having is a) he’s antivax and b) he’s pro-natural immunity. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

    frosty (f27e97)

  105. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 10/21/2021 @ 2:18 pm

    which has to mean that he was also not protecting these strangers from himself. The germs don’t flow in just one direction.

    Yes, exactly. It’s not missing. It’s staring right at you in what Dana posted.

    This is why “Did Prager even consider for one second that … Of course, he didn’t” should make you ask the obvious question. He understands how the virus is transmitted. He’s explained that very clearly. How could he not have thought about it? It’s clear from everything in the post, you don’t even have to follow links, that he did think about it and came to a different conclusion than many of the commenters here.

    frosty (f27e97)

  106. frosty, I’m not going to claim to know what Prager was thinking, so I’ll stick to what he actually said.
    Taking what he said at face value, his actions (that he “constantly hugged” people he didn’t know) put others at risk.
    Prager also said, “I have done what a person should do if one is not going to get vaccinated,” which puts him solidly in the anti-vax set.
    Also, I don’t where he got this “information” that inspired him to take ivermectin and HCQ and to refuse vaccines, but they can’t be from sources that are credible. That may work well with his right-wing audience and his personal bottom line, but it’s not a great thing for our public health.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  107. I think we can simplify this discussion as follows: Prager deliberately tried to help the virus spread, at least to himself. Therefore, it is fair to describe him as “pro-COVID”.

    Since the virus has killed more 750,000 thousand Americans and more than 4.9 million world wide, I am “anti-COVID”. I have done what little I can to stop its spread; for example, today I got my Pfizer booster shot.

    And I am certain that the good Dana is also “anti-COVID”.

    I don’t know whether “frosty” is “pro-COVID” (or “anti-anti-COVID”), neutral, or “anti-COVID”, and, unless frosty becomes a “spreader”, or even a “super spreader”, don’t particularly care.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  108. Correction: 750,000, without the “thousand”. Sorry about that.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  109. Those who advocate for natural immunity should commend Prager for his efforts.

    Rip Murdock (141030)

  110. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 10/21/2021 @ 5:07 pm

    Looks like you’ve got more current numbers than the CDC. That’s impressive.

    For someone “deliberately” trying to spread the virus he sure seems like he’s done a poor job. It took him a year or so to infect one person? And with all of that hugging and what not? He’s got a moderately sized social network too. You’d think we’d be talking about several people at least.

    frosty (f27e97)

  111. #112 If you are interested in the numbers, you can find them here.

    And a reminder: Anyone who understand the “excess deaths” concept knows that those numbers are underestimates, especially for the world.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  112. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 10/21/2021 @ 5:41 pm

    You’re thinking Pragger has had an appreciable impact on those worldwide numbers? That’s an interesting theory. I’m glad you’re anti-covid. Someone has to fight the good fight. Thank you.

    frosty (f27e97)

  113. Cephalopods often try to disguise their positions by putting out clouds of ink. It is best not to mistake those clouds for the animal. (The ink has its uses, but none that I can see — so far– here.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  114. You’re thinking Pragger has had an appreciable impact on those worldwide numbers?

    I’d say he has an impact on US numbers. It’s not just simply about what Prager personally does with hugs and strangers. He has 3.25 million listeners who hear his anti-vax message.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  115. @115 The coconut octopus is very interesting:

    The coconut octopus’ save-it-for-later approach suggests advance planning on the part of the creature which by extension also suggests a level of intelligence that is not typically expected from animals besides humans.

    It makes good use of junk it picks up as it’s wondering around. And it has a good reason to hang on to it. It’s best not to mistake that for a general skill.

    frosty (f27e97)

  116. Are you protecting yourself from an unvaccinated person or are you protecting yourself from a virus?
    Is the question of the day.
    It seems you can get the virus from an unvaccinated person or a vaccinated person. Being vaccinated helps make the vaccinated person less of a death risk than no vaccine, but not as good as natural immunity.

    steveg (e81d76)

  117. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 10/21/2021 @ 6:23 pm

    Maybe. I think the bigger problem is the numbers and the increasingly obvious lies. The vaccine efficacy against delta keeps getting updated down and the efficacy of natural immunity keeps getting updated up.

    The old “killing grandma” and “stop the spread” narratives don’t have the same legs. But we’re still thinking it’s moral to fire people. We’ve got to burn that village to save it after all and stop paying attention to the case and deaths numbers going down.

    Anyone else notice the anti-vax death pr0n stopped? Not that long ago it was a new version everyday of some anti-vaxxer regretting it on their deathbed. Now we’ve got an older fully vaccinated person dying from complications and an older anti-vaxxer alive and kicking.

    frosty (f27e97)

  118. I think the bigger problem is the numbers and the increasingly obvious lies.

    Who’s telling these “increasingly obvious lies” and what exactly are these lies? “Lies” is a heavy word because you’re saying that they (whoever “they” are) are engaged in intentional deceptions or just making sh-t up, regardless of any facts.
    What I’ve seen since the initial efficacy numbers came out is a delta variant that has resulted in different numbers in different countries. In Israel, they’re saying 39%, but it’s much higher elsewhere. The problem I have is that, because efficacy is lower now, people are saying that the vaccines are not effective when the reality is that they’re less effective than initially advertised, not that they don’t work.
    Also, the booster is showing positive results.
    And the science on natural immunity also appears unsettled. In Nature, natural immunity is short-term. A Nebraska study concludes that vaccine immunity is better. A UK study says natural immunity is just as good.
    The thing is, if you’ve caught it, why not just get a vax, like a single-shot J&J. It’ll make you all the more bullet-proof, and the shot is free and it’s safe. If you’ve been vaxxed, why not get a booster when it’s your turn. It’ll make you all the more bullet-proof, and the shot is free and it’s safe. If you’re un-vaxxed, why not just get a vaccine. It’s safe, free, it’ll reduced your chances of catching Covid, and it’ll keep you out of a hospital or an urn on your widowed wife’s mantle. It’s better than being un-vaxxed and catching it naturally and thereby risking death, long-hauling or other nasty after-effect.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  119. Anyone else notice the anti-vax death pr0n stopped?

    No, because it hasn’t.

    Two days after arriving at a Fredericksburg, Va., hospital with covid-19 in September, Misty Mitchem was put on a ventilator. Another two days later, she died.

    Misty’s husband, Kevin Mitchem, got the news as he arrived at a separate hospital with an unshakable cough. He also had covid-19, and within a week or so he couldn’t breathe on his own, Kevin’s younger brother, Mike Mitchem, told The Washington Post.

    Kevin died on Oct. 8, orphaning the four children he and Misty had raised together — and leaving behind a 22-year-old daughter from a previous relationship. But before he did, he expressed regret that he had not been immunized.

    “His last words to my mom were, ‘Mom, I love you. I wish I would have got the shot,’ ” Mike Mitchem told The Post.

    Neither Kevin, 48, nor Misty, 46, were vaccinated against the coronavirus, Mike Mitchem told The Post. He said the Stafford County couple had regularly taken in online misinformation about the virus and vaccines. “He liked to listen to different memes he would see — or different people saying … covid is not real.”

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  120. “I think the bigger problem is the numbers”

    So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!

    “and the increasingly obvious lies”

    It’s going to disappear one day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.

    Davethulhu (39426b)

  121. @121 fair enough. It’s fallen out of my daily feeds but if it still a thing I’m glad for that

    frosty (f27e97)

  122. @120

    I’d say one lie is that vaccine immunity is better than natural immunity. I’d say this is still the more common lie even though, as you’ve noted, some people have moved to unsettled science. As far as who, I’d tag the media, the CDC, and the current and past administration. Do we need to play the game of giving specific quotes or can we agree that “some people” have clearly pushed this knowing they didn’t have the data?

    I’d say another one that seems to have slipped under the radar is the game the CDC is playing with antibody testing. They’re saying people shouldn’t relying on antibody testing and they’re saying that because they are 100% vax. If someone finds out they’ve got antibodies they might not get the vaccine. But they’ve also relied on various studies that themselves used antibody testing when those studies reached the conclusion they wanted.

    An oldie but a goodie is that the vaccine would give you immunity and allow you to return to whatever we’re pretending normal will be. Yes, I know, the common response to this is that the data changed. I list it as a lie because the people claiming this knew at the time they couldn’t guarantee immunity against variants and, more importantly, they knew they were pushing hope and hoping it worked by writing “science” on the box. I also call it a lie at least some of the people making this claim also knew things weren’t going back to normal.

    I’d say the continuing demands for mandates aren’t supportable by data. They were always immoral but the practical reasoning for them was also weak or nonexistent. Is this a lie? I guess it depends on phrasing but we don’t need mandates.

    I’d say almost everything Fauci says is, at best, untrustworthy. But we can dig into that if you think I’m being unfair.

    It was a conspiracy theory that this came from China. Almost the entire discussion around that was false. We had people here claiming it was ridiculous to think this was lab grown and it was obviously natural even after months of extensive searching for the natural source and compelling evidence for the lab leak. When the data on this became to hard to deny the narrative changed to “we couldn’t agree with the lab leak because Trump agreed with it” and those people thought that was a reasonable answer.

    I say lie because in most cases these are intentional deceptions. The people making these statements will frequently say they are making these statements for the common good. They want to encourage 100% vax so anything that might be an obstacle to that must be discouraged. Discouraged in this context has become code for lie.

    This isn’t to say that everyone making these statements are lying. I think there are an uncomfortably large number of people who do not think for themselves. They simply accept and repeat whatever narrative has been given to them by the authority they trust. So, technically they believe what they’re saying.

    But media outlets, government officials, a large number of academics, people who claim to have “done the research”? They should know that they haven’t been honest. I think they do know but it’s the Noble Lie. So, yes, they are making s41t up regardless of the facts exactly because they think it’s the best thing for everyone. If you listen to them they say that, sometimes literally and explicitly, e.g. telling people they don’t need masks to keep people from hoarding them.

    I say this is now obvious because, well, it seems obvious. Yes, there are people who are still trapped in a bubble, and there is more than one. So, maybe you’d argue this is anecdotal or subjective. Fair enough. I won’t argue that.

    frosty (f27e97)

  123. I appreciate your answer, frosty.
    It’s too late to get into a long response but, from what I’ve seen, the natural v. vaccine immunity argument is not settled, and I did link to a couple of studies. I really don’t know the answer to it, so I’m going to withhold judgment until more definitive information comes along.
    I do believe the naturally immune are getting short shrift, i.e., not being treated on par with vaccinated individuals. But at the same time, it’s not a big deal for a previously infected person to just go out and get the J&J.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  124. frosty,

    The whole thing where you demand proof for something perfectly obvious is obnoxious.

    Patterico (d6faab)

  125. Patterico (d6faab) — 10/21/2021 @ 11:49 pm

    I apologize. In my defense I didn’t intend my original question to be obnoxious and I didn’t think it was obvious. The original question was literally just “I don’t think this quote is supported” and I think I explained along the way why I didn’t think it was obvious.

    frosty (f27e97)

  126. Patterico (d6faab) — 10/21/2021 @ 11:49 pm

    And I apologize in advance for asking this one but is it the demanding of proof of the obvious you find obnoxious or that it’s me doing it? Because that proof of the obvious thing isn’t uncommon here.

    Personally, I’d like to see a lot more latitude given to people’s implied assumptions, i.e. a greater willingness of people to agree to an assumption in order to discuss the larger issue. But the trend has been decidedly in the other direction. People are worried that opens them to an attack. I think this is part of the larger social trend that carries over to all discussions but especially those online.

    frosty (f27e97)

  127. frosty:

    I think if you could mind read the bulk of us, you would find that we believe Prager’s actions speak for themselves.

    What would help, from your side, is showing evidence Prager actually did care about the health of the other people he came in contact with, and him maybe alerting people to the idea that he was out to get COVID, so there is at least some risk of you catching it. If you are going to question a natural inference from a person’s conduct, you need something more than just asking questions.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  128. Appalled, If I assume that he really believes that spreading COVID to uninflected people is beneficial because that will help them build natural immunity you could view his actions and well intentioned. It’s analogous to people who think female genital mutilation is a good thing. Even though most people think it’s barbaric some people *believe* they’re doing a good thing.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  129. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 10/21/2021 @ 10:20 pm

    It’s too late to get into a long response but

    agreed. These posts that drag into the night are a challenge. There are some comments I find interesting but I worry if I leave I’ll lose the thread if it rolls off the recent comments section.

    from what I’ve seen, the natural v. vaccine immunity argument is not settled

    agreed. I should try to be very careful in what I call a lie. A categorical statement that vaccine immunity is better than natural immunity is what I’m calling a lie. It’s the best kind of lie because it has a kernel of truth buried in it.

    I really don’t know the answer to it, so I’m going to withhold judgment until more definitive information comes along.

    agreed. I’m really not sure either but I’m leaning towards natural. I’d agree that it’s just my opinion though.

    it’s not a big deal for a previously infected person to just go out and get the J&J.

    I don’t think this is the problem though. I think the big deal is they don’t and I question why it is. I don’t think the marginal improved utility of the “incentivizing” is worth it and I think the effort has eroded public confidence in a number of institutions.

    frosty (f27e97)

  130. Appalled (1a17de) — 10/22/2021 @ 7:25 am

    Agreed. Time123 sums it up in @131. I also did what you’ve asked in @103 and @106. Both of those comments were responses to you.

    frosty (f27e97)

  131. I note that China has only recorder 4300 deaths, or 0.1% of the per capita deaths of the US. IF true, they have a far more efficient police state than I thought. Perhaps they just shoot infected people, so they don’t die of Covid.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  132. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/22/2021 @ 8:52 am

    I noticed that too. Sends a chill up my spin. What’s even more chilling is that this isn’t more of a media issue. Everyone just assumes China is cooking the numbers and it isn’t even worth talking about? But let’s pretend those economic numbers are only slightly cooked?

    frosty (f27e97)

  133. China’s data isn’t reliable.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  134. frosty (f27e97) — 10/22/2021 @ 7:41 am

    A categorical statement that vaccine immunity is better than natural immunity is what I’m calling a lie. It’s the best kind of lie because it has a kernel of truth buried in it.

    It’s more probable than ts opposite, which we often hear as a pro-vaccine argument. And that is definitely a lie, as are the reasons for supposedly not be able to tell in specific cases. Any reasonable person would have to say that 90% to 95% of the time an infection confers greater immunity (at the [roce of greater risk and of feeling more sick for longer) than one dose of a coronavirus vaccine. The big exception would be someone who tested postive (so we know they were exposed) but got a small dose of virus that was beaten back very quickly.

    Also getting artificial help may limit the strength of the immunity, as well as that acquired by being given any vaccine shortly thereafter.

    I herd an ad from NYC last night. Its message was get the flu vaccine but also said getting a flu vaccine would not help against Covid and vice versa. Not true. Any vaccine revs up the immune system for some time.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  135. 134. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/22/2021 @ 8:52 am

    I note that China has only recorder 4300 deaths, or 0.1% of the per capita deaths of the US. IF true, they have a far more efficient police state than I thought. Perhaps they just shoot infected people, so they don’t die of Covid.

    I thought so too, except I thought they killed them another way, at the beginning when there were reports of bodies being cremated in Wuhan, without the family being able to see the body, but I think this is most likely not the explanation. I don’t think they could find the people to kill them without something giving way – or at least details leaking out.

    The Chinese government goes in very much for isolation, and can flat out lie, and the local despots (who operate with light supervision and have much delegated authority, subject to being purged and imprisoned) have a strong incentive to avoid reporting Covid deaths.

    Covid deaths, if at all possible, are attributed to cases imported introduced into China from abroad.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  136. 122.

    Trump

    It’s going to disappear one day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.

    Opinion seems to be divided on that, with some maintaining it will never disappear and people will just have to get vaccinated against it in childhood. Trump based his comment on what happened with the 1918 flu, which his grandfather most likely died of, although the way he said it, he was trying make it appear it maybe could happen in three months even before a vaccine was ready to use.

    The Biden Administration’s position seems to be that it’s going to disappear if only we can get enough people vaccinated and there’s no calculations involved, just hope. In the UK, they’re relying on naturally acquired immunity to finish the job, and have experienced a rise in cases and deaths.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  137. Trump based his comment on what happened with the 1918 flu, grandfather most likely died of, although the way he said it, he was trying make it appear it maybe could happen in three months even before a vaccine was ready to use.

    Trump hardly ever clarifies his comments, Sammy, so how do you know his comment based from the Spanish Flu?
    Trump said on multiple occasions that “we’re rounding the corner” and this:

    “With or without the vaccines, we’re rounding the turn.”
    –10/20/2020

    At that moment in time, we were on the cusp of the next massive death wave, where 200k Americans succumbed to the virus in his last 92 days in office, ballooning the death toll by 87%.
    Is it not too hard to accept that Trump’s pronouncements were basically full of sh-t, spoken mainly to elevate himself and derogate his “enemies”?

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  138. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 10/21/2021 @ 8:09 pm

    A better source for why I think the “lies” are important and also increasingly obvious.

    Dr. John Campbell isn’t remotely anti-vax and this is a fair discussion of the topic.

    frosty (f27e97)

  139. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 10/22/2021 @ 10:16 am

    Is it not too hard to accept that Trump’s pronouncements were basically full of sh-t, spoken mainly to elevate himself and derogate his “enemies”?

    Nope. It’s not hard to accept at all. The unfortunate thing is we’re now in a “Meet the new boss, Same as the old boss” situation.

    There’s nothing in the street
    Looks any different to me
    And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
    And the parting on the left
    Is now the parting on the right
    And the beards have all grown longer overnight

    I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
    Take a bow for the new revolution
    Smile and grin at the change all around me
    Pick up my guitar and play
    Just like yesterday
    Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
    We don’t get fooled again
    Don’t get fooled again
    No, no!

    The Who – Won’t Get Fooled Again

    frosty (f27e97)

  140. I’ve listened to Campbell here and there, and partly it’s why I’m reserving judgment on the immunity question.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  141. SF: Trump based his comment on what happened with the 1918 flu, grandfather most likely died of, although the way he said it, he was trying make it appear it maybe could happen in three months even before a vaccine was ready to use.

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 10/22/2021 @ 10:16 am

    Trump hardly ever clarifies his comments, Sammy, so how do you know his comment based from the Spanish Flu?

    m Because that’s the prime historic example. I don;tthink Trump intentionally ade it up because he’d be placing himself out on a limb. Trump was talking to lots of people.

    Now what he would do is take something that someone else said had a possibility of being true and treat it as certain. That much e was willing to gamble.

    I know that that was a reasonable thing to say – except for the hint that it could happen very soon. Still, he said “some day”

    Trump said on multiple occasions that “we’re rounding the corner”

    We were. The vaccine was coming.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  142. Trump was wishcasting.

    Davethulhu (39426b)

  143. Davethulhu @145.

    Trump was wishcasting.

    He was. But he had a basis for it. And it was obvious that it could not have been anything else but wishcasting. he question was what was the robability?

    Now in the fall of 2020 they were beginning to predict that it wsas going to be bad winterr – but that after there would be a decline (not quite what happened – there was a later rise)

    They were also predicting flu – but all the non-pharmaceutical interventions also worked against flu and there was very little flu that season

    Here were the predictions:

    https://komonews.com/news/coronavirus/grim-new-fall-winter-covid-19-forecast-predicts-nearly-2m-deaths

    The IHME model projects the wave will peak globally in mid-December at 30,000 deaths per day and in the United States in early December at about 2,900 deaths per day. India, the United States, Brazil, Mexico and Japan will lead the world in total deaths by Jan. 1, according to the forecast.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/coronavirus-fall-projections-second-wave/2020/09/04/6edb3392-ed61-11ea-99a1-71343d03bc29_story.html

    A model produced by the University of Washington’s Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation and published Friday forecasts a “most likely” daily death toll of 1,907 on Election Day, roughly double the current toll. Under the IHME forecast, the numbers would continue to rise until early December, peaking at more than 2,800 deaths daily

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  144. Is it not too hard to accept that Trump’s pronouncements were basically full of sh-t, spoken mainly to elevate himself and derogate his “enemies”?

    They were spoken mainly to try to get people to think it was going to be over, but they were not entirely full of s-it. Trump did not realize where they could go wrong. (they were intended to be defensible statements (The Dem position was that there’s no hope)

    Now sometimes Trump says brazen lies, as he’s doing about the 2020 election. Even there, he never ties himself to anything specific.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  145. I don;tthink Trump intentionally ade it up because he’d be placing himself out on a limb.

    That’s actually funny, Sammy.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  146. Isn’t it possible that Prager simply did not shy away from people who approached him?
    He has some level of celebrity in his circle, so it is imaginable that his “fans” want hugs and photos even though I can’t imagine myself doing that.

    I had a conversation with a client who is a very smart Harvard med school, MD (he is not just credentialed, the guy is one of the smartest, most personable people I’ve met) and our conversation was about social interaction and COVID. He approached me to shake hands. We were outdoors, so no masks. He told me he only uses masks with his clients inside or outside if they choose to (they aren’t patients to him because none of them see him because they are ill). He told me that in his view the vaccines were to inoculate us from the virus, not from the “unclean”. Some of his clients are outspoken advocates of personal choice, not anti-vax, but very pro freedom to choose what goes into your body. They’ve had COVID, do not intend to get vaccinated, and are sticking to their principles at high personal cost.
    I told him that I would have rather have had COVID naturally while still somewhat young (Mid 60’s) and his take on that is that some humans are probably wired in different ways as a species survival strategy.

    I’m not better than person X because I wear a mask inside where mandated, I’m not superior because I’m vaccinated. I’m not going to change my life any further than that over this weak-ass virus either

    steveg (e81d76)

  147. steveg (e81d76) — 10/22/2021 @ 1:43 pm

    Isn’t it possible that Prager simply did not shy away from people who approached him?

    This is unlikely given his statements on the subject. He’s been clear. If you’re a fan of Pragger and you think this natural immunity route is bad you’ll need to resolve that.

    I’m not better than person X because I wear a mask inside where mandated, I’m not superior because I’m vaccinated.

    This is where a bit of the problem starts. This is not as common an idea as I’d wish for. It’s also easy to underestimate the power of fear and it’s effect on individuals and society.

    frosty (f27e97)

  148. 3) The polio vaccine, administered as a series of four doses is considered to be 100% effective.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/21/2021 @ 7:24 am

    I want to address this one item. Scientists have a special language to their selves that is different from the normal definition and understanding of language. For instance significant in a scientific paper can mean that it happens one percent of the time, every time. To me that is not the meaning of significant. In this case 100% effective is not 100%. People who have been vaccinated with a polio vaccine still get polio to this day. It’s an extremely small number, but it does happen.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  149. Tanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 10/22/2021 @ 9:13 pm

    . Scientists have a special language to their selves that is different from the normal definition and understanding of language. For instance significant in a scientific paper can mean that it happens one percent of the time, every time.

    Significant means that, whatever the effect, big or small, there is at least a 95% chance 19 times out of 20 – (in a study) that it is not a result of chance.

    I would think the key words here are “is considered to be”

    Rounded up. Or extremely limited disease.

    By the way, Parkinson’s disease is an autoimmune disease, and it s medically plausible that stimulating the immune system in general which the Covid and even the flu vaccine does – cold make the Parkinson’s disease worse, as could getting an infection that requires some effort to beat back.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  150. 148. Trump doesn’t place himself out on a limb more than he has to for something important to him. He knows his credibility could get hurt. Only a limited number of things (like now the stolen election meme) are worth it to him because they fundamental lies in his repertoire.

    Even when it come to basic lies he picks and chooses what to say. With regard to the election he has been careful to avoid specifics (aside from occasional trial balloons, to which he gauges the reaction) and he has now issued a call to others to please bring proof of the cheating or else he’s destroy the Republican Party’s chances of winning elections.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.6134 secs.