Patterico's Pontifications

10/12/2021

Abbott: Private Businesses May Not Impose Vaccine Requirements

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



I don’t understand the justification for this:

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott issued an executive order Monday prohibiting any entity, including private businesses, from imposing Covid-19 vaccination requirements on employees or customers.

“The COVID-19 vaccine is safe, effective, and our best defense against the virus, but should remain voluntary and never forced,” Abbott said in a statement.

New GOP rule: you don’t have to bake the cake, but you have to serve the cake to the unvaccinated.

187 Responses to “Abbott: Private Businesses May Not Impose Vaccine Requirements”

  1. Abbott is not a conservative, using his police power to control private enterprise.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  2. Politics? Abbot is running for reelection and faces a challenge from his right.

    Say it ain’t so!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  3. The justification is that it’s morally unethical to force the entire population to accept an injection of something they don’t want.

    Any mandate must be weighed against the severity of the disease and for something that 99% recovery rate of the entire population, such policy is extremely dubious.

    The focus ought to remain on those at increased risks, which include some professions (such as healthcare workers).

    whembly (28d712)

  4. New GOP rule: you don’t have to bake the cake, but you have to serve the cake to the unvaccinated.

    This makes zero sense.

    whembly (28d712)

  5. Furthermore, this is me being cynical, I’m surprised it took this long for Abbott to do this.

    I think he’s trying to save Southwest Airline’s bacon here.

    Southwest Airline is a federal contractor, as such is required by the Biden Administration to mandate the vaccine. The airline is facing massive staffing shortages which is causing massive flight cancelations, leading to some to suspect an unofficial strike, or a “sick out” strike. I think an official strike under these conditions are illegal, so the union is going about this in a roundabout way.

    Southwest’s headquarters are in Dallas, and as such is a major constituent. I suspect this “sick out” was the pretext for Abbot to issue the EO so that this Biden mandate is taken to court for an injunction.

    whembly (0a8536)

  6. The focus ought to remain on those at increased risks, which include some professions (such as healthcare workers).

    There is no exemption for hospitals under Abbott’s order.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  7. Good for him.

    How can you not understand this? It’s direct push back against Biden’s unconstitutional mandate.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  8. @6 Hospital employees can (and do!) do frequent testing.

    whembly (28d712)

  9. Poseur. Like Trump, Abbott is all sizzle and no steak who only looked good running against Wendita.

    nk (1d9030)

  10. “The COVID-19 vaccine is safe, effective, and our best defense against the virus, but should remain voluntary and never forced,” Abbott said in a statement.

    Then why not ban all vaccine mandates?

    Texas public schools require K-12 students to get vaccinated for tetanus; polio; measles, mumps and rubella; hepatitis B; chickenpox; meningitis and hepatitis A. College students are required to receive a meningitis vaccination, too. Health care and veterinary students are required to get additional vaccines for rabies, tetanus-diphtheria and hepatitis B.

    None of which are at pandemic levels in Texas (or anywhere else). See post 2 for link.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  11. @10 because RIP, not all infections are the same.

    We need to stop treating vaccines for the various diseases the same. Each one is different.

    whembly (28d712)

  12. We need to stop treating vaccines for the various diseases the same. Each one is different.

    That’s my point-none of the conditions students and teachers are vaccinated against are at remotely serious levels in the population, yet persons are forced to be jabbed for essentially non-existent threats.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  13. i don’t understand “ban the box” laws or requiring gender neutral toy sections

    i do understand that states get to do stuff, and people are allowed to vote with their feet

    lots of people don’t like that, and we’ll rue the day when they prevail

    JF (e1156d)

  14. @12 That’s my point-none of the conditions students and teachers are vaccinated against are at remotely serious levels in the population, yet persons are forced to be jabbed for essentially non-existent threats.
    Again, those are only a SUBSET of the population on vaccines that’s been around for decades. These diseases are way more destructive without vaccination programs than covid.

    This covid mandate is something else altogether, on a disease where the population has 99+% recovery.

    whembly (28d712)

  15. The MAGA movement doesn’t want to allow people to make their own choices about how they run their business. It wants to use the power of the state to force people to make choices they agree with. The only reason they support the baker who doesn’t like gay marriage is because they agree with the baker.

    Abbot doesn’t support or oppose allowing employers to set their own requirements for employee as a principle. He doesnt’ oppose vaccine mandates in general. MAGA opposes this vaccine in particular so he’s released this EO. I think from some desire to appear consistent MAGA is looking for a philosophical justification for their position and I expect to start seeing some MAGA opposition to other vaccine mandates (such as the flu vaccine for health care workers and vaccine mandates for school children). But maybe I’ll be surprised.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  16. Whembly, don’t we need to look at 3 things to assess risk;
    1. Danger of the disease.
    2. Contagion
    3. Prevalence in the environment

    Covid’s a much bigger threat then Ebola, even though a case of Ebola is for more dearly because many people have covid right now and it’s easy to transmit.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  17. @16 Of course.

    #4 Measure mitigation strategy against the rights of the people.

    That has to be included in the calculation too, and far too many is ignoring the social/societal impacts of a proposed mandate.

    whembly (28d712)

  18. Whembly, I agree with you about the need to make that balance. I think the employeer should have a right to make that determination for their business.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  19. Again, everyone, would you take every vaccine available?

    What about the flu vaccine? The flu is a much bigger killer in kids than covid ever did.

    Would you be okay with mandating that?

    The flu has only about 50% effectiveness, give or take +/- 10%. That’s because there’s a little russion roulette in trying to ascertain would might be the dominate strain for the season. The way to mitigate that is to expand this to multiple flu strains.

    Would you accept 3-5 flu shots per year as a mandate?

    The other thing to keep in mind is that immunology is still a growing field where we still have a lot to learn. There’s so many things that we still don’t know, and a lot of the times, we find out what we’ve been doing isn’t a good as initially advertised.

    Just look at the Nordic countries (and Iceland?) now NOT giving the mRNA vaccines to the young due to potential myocardial inflammation issues.

    We must be willing to adjust, and maybe ask the question: Is a mandate like Biden proposed the right thing?

    whembly (0a8536)

  20. @18 You know what would change that calculus Time? Put the employer on the hook for any deleterious effects on the employees complying with the covid mandate.

    I’m positive you can’t sue the vaccine companies, but I wonder if employers would face any litigations on this.

    whembly (0a8536)

  21. you can’t sure the vaccine companies, but the NVICP address harms to people caused by vaccines. It’s a low number but it’s not zero for any vaccine.

    Are you proposing that we move from that process to using thee courts for Covid?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  22. @21 I’m proposing to hold EMPLOYERS liable for policies they require in order for the employees to retain their job. Or at least, make it a viable job-injury claim.

    whembly (28d712)

  23. So, if my wife is recovering from chemotherapy, I cannot insist that the maid is vaccinated?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  24. @23 when did you move to texas?

    JF (e1156d)

  25. Went in for a physical, they want a blood test, fine. I asked for a antibody count against the china flu.Said the tests for that wasn’t accurate. I asked what was accurate. Said they would get back with me.
    That was a week ago.
    Republicans ran on getting rid of obama care. They had control of all 3 phases of b.s. and failed, so now I have to put up with this crap.

    mg (8cbc69)

  26. I never saw where Biden got this power over private companies and I don’t see where Abbot does either.

    Anyone who says that Abbot HAS this power would have to agree that he could order the opposite just as legally. Both are wrong, outside very narrow considerations (e.g. front-line hospital workers, or similar public employees). Any private business should be free to set the terms of employment as makes most sense to them.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  27. @23 when did you move to texas?

    What an idiotic comment.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  28. @26 Biden really doesn’t have the power.

    State government, under SCOTUS precedent DOES have the power to issue mandates. So, the question is that if the same power (issuing a mandate) could also be argued that state government can ban mandates?

    whembly (0a8536)

  29. They had control of all 3 phases of b.s. and failed, so now I have to put up with this crap.

    That’s because the guys YOU liked insisted on their way, and got the highway.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  30. So, the question is that if the same power (issuing a mandate) could also be argued that state government can ban mandates?

    They don’t have that power in a vacuum. They have the power to manage a health emergency. Using it to PREVENT private businesses from dealing with a health emergency is not the same thing as requiring them to do so.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  31. @27 yours, or mine?

    first, i hope your wife gets better

    second, i’m pretty sure you can do what you like in your own house and the law obviously doesn’t apply

    even if the maid is an illegal you’re fine

    really

    third, like i said states do stuff. do you want some other system?

    JF (e1156d)

  32. Although I don’t think they can require vaccinations, there’s a better argument they can, than they can tell businesses to endanger their customers and employees.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  33. JF just made the list.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  34. sad face x100

    JF (e1156d)

  35. @32 than they can tell businesses to endanger their customers and employees.

    Tell me why this isn’t hyperbole.

    Covid recovery rate is 99+% for the entire population.

    I honestly think, we as society, went overboard with our reaction to this.

    The one thing that drives me absolute bonkers, is this idea that being recovered from the disease isn’t enough. There’s zero recognition on public policy by the federal government of those who recovered from the disease having protection in the future. This is basic immunology that is being ignored.

    whembly (0a8536)

  36. “Republicans ran on getting rid of obama care. They had control of all 3 phases of b.s. and failed, so now I have to put up with this crap.”

    You need to read up on what can be accomplished outside of reconciliation….ie, without 60 votes in the Senate. Obamacare initially failed to attract any bipartisan support. That was a mistake. Republicans chose not to even try to improve the law when they won majorities. That was a mistake. Democrats have no incentive to oppose outright repeal…..many of their constituents benefit from access that they did not have prior to the law. If there is no effort to compromise, nothing much changes. In this climate of hating the other side, there are no compromises. Unless you can win huge majorities…that are pretty unlikely…..what then are the ideas for compromise that make the system better? Repeal and replace was a bust. What’s the next idea?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  37. Only a worse than Trump voter would get knee bound for not 86ing obama care. Save the i didn’t vote for the cellar dweller,b.s.

    mg (8cbc69)

  38. Another McConnell, Ryan, rino fail.

    mg (8cbc69)

  39. Covid recovery rate is 99+% for the entire population.

    For some it’s that, for others it’s far less. People are not averages, or dice. “I’m all right, Jack!” isn’t an answer.

    I know two people who will not survive Covid and get little benefit themselves from the vaccine. Sure, they take extreme precautions, but maybe they want to KNOW that the grocery-store delivery guy or the nurse that comes in twice a week is vaccinated. This order would prevent that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  40. Can a business require an employee to install norplant? Get their tunes tied? Have a vasectomy? Take experimental drugs? Require gene therapy? Any other surgical procedure?

    Any limits at all or does it only go one way which you support based on fear?

    NJRob (785fcb)

  41. This is basic immunology that is being ignored.

    Also being ignored is that people lie. You can test for the vaccine antibodies since they are quite deterministic. Testing for the antibodies that your chaotic immune system thought up is not so easy.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  42. @40: None of those things has anything to do with protecting customers or other employees from a PANDEMIC disease. What part of PANDEMIC do you not understand?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  43. A sane society would have knocked this disease down in mid-2020. It didn’t. Now we have the tall-children rules.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. That’s my point-none of the conditions students and teachers are vaccinated against are at remotely serious levels in the population, yet persons are forced to be jabbed for essentially non-existent threats.

    Texas has a liberal exemption option for public k-12 vaccine requirements, plus parents can always enroll their children in private schools. I am not aware of any requirement that teachers be vaccinated.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  45. I’m so old I remember when the left was demanding more unions to protect the employees from the evil, mean, greedy, demanding employers, and to push back against employer mandates (especially where the employees thought things were a risk to them).

    I’m so old I also remember when the left was insisting that an employer not have access to (and not even be able to ask questions about) an employee’s health, or health records.

    I’m so old I also remember when the left was shouting at the top of its collective lungs “my body my choice” and “keep your hands off my uterus”.

    Always amazes me how both sides of the political spectrum seem to be so willing to accept (even demand) government actions they like and then be equally as fervent against those government actions they don’t like. Yet, we can’t seem to accept any compromise. Thank God the founders were smart enough to insist on protections against such government actions because they recognized that “each person’s particular party/views” wouldn’t always be in power.

    SMDSMMFD-W (7438e3)

  46. Kevin M,

    It’s endemic. It’s with us period. I’m not taking a shot every 3 months to live. You do you. I’ll live as I choose.

    NJRob (0f6b9e)

  47. It’s endemic. It’s with us period.

    The new normal? Maybe. How many people are you willing to see die early so you can avoid a little needle?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  48. Kevin M,

    My physician told me that a month after they were fully vaccinated, he tested antibodies from each of his patients who received Covid vaccines from any source. He said very few had Covid antibodies, and most had none.

    He was surprised but most patients were elderly/immunocompromised and virtually all got the Pfizer vaccine. He thought it was because they have poor immune systems. I think it was that and getting Pfizer.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  49. I think we should bring back the Draft so we can all get a little perspective.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  50. @47 Kevin, the answer for some to NOT have that fear isn’t to advocate a one-size-fit-all mandate to take the jab. That’s actually unethical.

    whembly (28d712)

  51. He thought it was because they have poor immune systems.

    The vaccine is to get the immune system to react. If there isn’t an immune system to speak of, it doesn’t work. Such people only benefit from the herd being vaccinated.

    That plan breaks down when those mostly likely to unknowingly carry the virus to others refuse a vaccination because “they don’t need it” for themselves, as they expect to easily recover from the disease.

    Although really, do we need lollipops for the poor hurt arms?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  52. That’s actually unethical.

    Why is it unethical to require a tiny effort on everyone’s part. Consider taxes and tell me which is the bigger burden.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  53. Did you know that, in many states, every schoolchild is required to get a polio vaccine before entering kindergarten, even though there has not been a case of polio in the USA since 1993 (a traveler) and no native polio case since 1979?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  54. Tell me why this isn’t hyperbole.

    It’s not hyperbole because the danger exists. I grant you that the danger from COVID is small. But it’s not 0%.

    If a business wants to institute a PRIVATE vaccine or mask mandate, they should be free to do so. If it costs them business, that’s the price of their decision. If a state wants to issue a PUBLIC vaccine or mask mandate, then again, that’s their decision, made under their long-established authority on matters of public health. You don’t like what your representative voted for? Kick him out at the next election.

    But if a state wants to issue a public mandate that private businesses can’t establish private mandates of their own, then they had better be prepared to show a compelling interest in regulating private behavior. Your individual right to govern your own affairs does NOT include the ability to compel others to tailor decisions to accommodate your whims.

    Covid recovery rate is 99+% for the entire population.

    This is literally untrue. It’s north of 98%, but not north of 99%. Which sounds like a small difference, until you realize that the number of people represented by that difference falls somewhere between the populations of Orlando and Anaheim. Not two of our very biggest cities, to be sure. But far from our smallest.

    I honestly think, we as society, went overboard with our reaction to this.

    This, I agree with. But the politician’s fallacy regrettably drives many decisions.

    The one thing that drives me absolute bonkers, is this idea that being recovered from the disease isn’t enough. There’s zero recognition on public policy by the federal government of those who recovered from the disease having protection in the future. This is basic immunology that is being ignored.

    whembly (0a8536) — 10/12/2021 @ 10:55 am

    Again, fair. But think about what you’re saying for a minute. Because governments basically have three choices. They can mandate vaccines or masks for everyone. They can mandate vaccines or masks for no one. Or they can find some way to differentiate between those who have immunity and those who don’t.

    I know how you feel about the first one. But as to the other two: do you want the government to not apply mandates to those who have some sort of immunity from COVID, whether naturally or artificially gained? Isn’t that basically a vaccine passport? (Or, under the circumstances, an immunity passport, if you will.) So, either you’re saying you’re OK with some sort of passport, or you’re saying you’re not OK with any of it. And if it’s the latter, then with all due respect, you ALSO are ignoring basic medical theory.

    Demosthenes (90c102)

  55. I do agree though, that mandating vaccines, outside of a few professions, isn’t a very good plan. People resist and get obstinate about it.

    I think it is a better plan to have a society that understood that freedom implies some duties.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  56. This, I agree with. But the politician’s fallacy regrettably drives many decisions

    Simply stated:

    1. We must DO SOMETHING!
    2. THIS is something.
    3. We must do THIS!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  57. do you want the government to not apply mandates to those who have some sort of immunity from COVID, whether naturally or artificially gained?

    Worse: it is one thing for government to track those who have/have not been immunized. Most states do that now. It is a far more intrusive thing for them to determine which of the unimmunized have antibodies. I suspect there would be some pushback if they tried. Would you argue they should just take everyone at their word? I wish they could, but everyone lies about something.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  58. Almost all COVID deaths are 70+.

    I’m not willing to sacrifice the rest of the population so boomers can live a few more years with less fear.

    How many children are worth your fear Kevin?

    Stay in shape and stop being afraid.

    NJRob (09229b)

  59. @58, You’re but being asked to sacrifice anyone, despite what you may have seen on facebook the vaccine doesn’t kill you, has no tracking device in it, and won’t make you magnetic.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  60. @57, Kevin, stop pointing out that their proposed solution isn’t any better then the thing they claim to dislike.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  61. I do agree though, that mandating vaccines, outside of a few professions, isn’t a very good plan. People resist and get obstinate about it.

    I think it is a better plan to have a society that understood that freedom implies some duties.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/12/2021 @ 11:35 am

    I actually agree with you on this, 100%, Kevin.

    Unfortunately, you, me, and John Adams aren’t enough.

    Demosthenes (90c102)

  62. Fun fact:

    My younger sister thought she had gotten Covid in Feb 2020, after her husband got a “serious flu” after coming back from CES 2020 and gave it to her.

    Then she got what she thought was Covid last summer. Another “bad flu”. She doesn’t get any vaccines because she believes that Jenny McCarthy crap. So, either she got Covid twice, or once, or hasn’t had it yet. Or maybe she’s had it even more often. She’s not immunocompromised so it’s really hard to know.

    Without testing her for antibodies — way intrusive — who knows whether she’s immune or not? Or even, given her recent history of “bad flu”, whether infection by one strain protects one from another.

    This illustrates the problem with the “why aren’t they counting natural immunity” argument.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  63. Kevin, I thought I had a mild case very early on. Then I got the actual thing with a test and everything.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  64. Kevin,

    The public also need to have that hard conversation to remove the stigma from the idea that you should self-quarantine if you suspect your sick (covid, flu, whatever).

    “Powering through” a cold should not be viewed as a “team player” thing.

    whembly (28d712)

  65. Time123,

    Sure you are. I know someone hospitized from the vaccine that suffered heart damage. He was in a college sports scholarship at the time.

    But he’s just spilled milk to you.

    Just a statistic.

    NJRob (635132)

  66. Almost all COVID deaths are 70+.

    Over all time, perhaps. In the last few months? No. In August 2021 45,784 US residents died of Covid. Of these 26,877 were 65 or older (no data on 70+). Taking out half of those 65-74 and this number drops to 21,515.

    Not only is this not “almost all” it isn’t even “more than half.”

    DATA: CDC: https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  67. From NJRob @ 11:42 am:

    Almost all COVID deaths are 70+.

    I’m not willing to sacrifice the rest of the population so boomers can live a few more years with less fear.

    Literally twenty minutes later, also from NJRob:

    I know someone hospitized from the vaccine that suffered heart damage. He was in a college sports scholarship at the time.

    But he’s just spilled milk to you.

    Just a statistic.

    I don’t think any additional commentary is necessary.

    Demosthenes (90c102)

  68. Questions:

    1. Would you be less likely to get tested for Covid antibodies if you knew the result would be transmitted to state health records?

    2. Would you be upset to know that there ARE state health records with your name on them?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  69. In August 2021, over 700 US residents under 30 died from Covid. 81 children died. And the numbers are changing. Gen X is doing much of the dying now.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  70. I know someone hospitized from the vaccine that suffered heart damage.

    Do tell. He had the vaccine and keeled over from it on the spot? Or, he had a vaccine and, the next week after eating three lobster tails he had a heart attack?

    “After that, therefore because of that” was know to the Romans as “Post hoc, ergo propter hoc” and was called a fallacy even then.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  71. August 2021, USA, all sexes

    All Ages 45,748
    Under 1 year 16
    0-17 years 81
    1-4 years 8
    5-14 years 21
    15-24 years 259
    25-34 years 1,148
    35-44 years 2,752
    45-54 years 5,597
    55-64 years 9,070
    65-74 years 10,724
    75-84 years 9,370
    85 years+ 6,783

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  72. Demon,

    If you don’t understand the difference between harming the young to protect the old I can’t help you.

    There’s a reason our country is bankrupt and has done tremendous damage to future generations.

    NJRob (3a2362)

  73. Right, NJRob. Of course. A person is only important when it’s someone you know. Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of others…who cares? Just statistics, yeah?

    Or, based on your last comment, maybe it’s not because you know them. Maybe it’s because they’re young and healthy. A bunch of old people who are past their physical prime? Not worth worrying about. Soylent Green just waiting to be processed.

    You are a troll. You are a hypocrite.

    You are not, however, a demon. And I’ll accept an apology for that whenever you care to offer it.

    Demosthenes (90c102)

  74. Apologies,

    Meant to type demos.

    NJRob (253c67)

  75. I offer no apologies for thinking that the boomer generation has done untold damage to our nation in their pursuit of greed and pretending to stay young.

    NJRob (253c67)

  76. Fair enough. It’s forgotten.

    Demosthenes (90c102)

  77. If you don’t understand the difference between harming the young to protect the old I can’t help you.

    How are vaccines “harming the young”?

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  78. Almost all COVID deaths are 70+.

    Kevin M has pointed out recent statistics, but even over the duration of the pandemic, 77.9% of deaths have been in ages 65 and up. 21.8% of that is between 65 and 74, meaning that even if only 1/3 of the 65-74 deaths were ages 65-69, barely over 70% of deaths would be 70+. If my kid told me he got “almost all” the points on a 100-point test, I would assume he had gotten an A or an A+, not a C- or a D+.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  79. How are vaccines “harming the young”?

    It’s saving some of their lives in this cold, cruel, miserable world. How can you not see the harm? :)

    Patterico (e349ce)

  80. If you don’t understand the difference between harming vaccinating the young to protect the old…..

    FIFY

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  81. I think the debate around “almost all” is less important than the false assertion that vaccination is a harmful act.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  82. @82 for some people, vaccination did end up as an harmful act.

    It’s the totally lack of empathy of this risk analysis that find disturbing.

    whembly (123289)

  83. There’s an observative increased risk factors with Guillain-Barré syndrome:
    https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-july-13-2021

    Israel is definitely finding increased risks:
    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/2783708

    In short, Guillain-Barré can cause total paralysis.

    So, no, it’s not a risk-free ask.

    whembly (123289)

  84. https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2021/10/seattle-woman-who-grew-up-in-portland-becomes-4th-in-us-whose-death-is-linked-to-jj-covid-19-vaccine.html

    “As with many medications, the risk of serious adverse events is small, but not zero,” said Seattle and King County officials in a statement Tuesday. “It is vital for people to have this information in order to make their own informed decisions.”

    JF (e1156d)

  85. Nearly all people don’t die every year. Everyone dies.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  86. It’s the totally lack of empathy of this risk analysis that find disturbing.

    What about empathy for un-vaxxed minors who are dead from the virus? As noted above, 81 minors succumbed in August alone, while the number who died in all the months in all age groups from the vaccine is provably perhaps a handful, out of over 217 million doses given.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  87. I offer no apologies for thinking that the boomer generation has done untold damage to our nation in their pursuit of greed and pretending to stay young.

    You have no idea what we did, or what we started with.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  88. for some people, vaccination did end up as an harmful act.

    More people drowned in buckets.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  89. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 10/12/2021 @ 1:57 pm

    What about empathy for un-vaxxed minors who are dead from the virus? As noted above, 81 minors succumbed in August alone, while the number who died in all the months in all age groups from the vaccine is provably perhaps a handful, out of over 217 million doses given.

    We have to be careful about attributing deaths to Covid, but more important, how many minors didn’t die?

    It’s not even clear to doctors where the tipping point (age) is between the risks of vaccination – from a too strong immune response not properly treated – and the risks of Covid (it’s so minimal).

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  90. @88: “VAERS” implies crowd-sourced “data.”. The rest of it is behind a login-wall.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  91. We have to be careful about attributing deaths to Covid, but more important, how many minors didn’t die?

    The CDC data is careful about that, and lists pneumonia and flu deaths separately (and combined), along with “all deaths.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  92. @89: For those that don’t know the difference that IS hyperbole. But not all that much.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  93. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/12/2021 @ 9:31 am

    Then why not ban all vaccine mandates?

    Careful. That question, in the wrong place, might give some people ideas.

    Seriously, it may take a few years (like 5) for Covid-19 vaccines to be put on the childhood
    vaccination list.

    None of which are at pandemic levels in Texas (or anywhere else).

    Vaccinations at a young age may be the reason why. Vaccinations are for prevention.

    Not teally for use in pandemics. If someone was recently infected or will be infected immediately, a vaccine will make the disease worse (because it gives more work to the immune system)

    One interesting point: People who contracted measles or chicken pox are not required to get vaccinated for these diseases.

    There’s a bad problem with measles:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03324-7

    Measles infections in children can wipe out the immune system’s memory of other illnesses such as influenza, according to a pair of studies1,2. This can leave kids who recover from measles vulnerable to other pathogens that they might have been protected from before their bout with the virus….When people get an infection, their immune system creates antibodies to fight it off. Once the body clears the infection, special immune cells remember that pathogen and help to mount a faster defence if the virus or bacterium invades again.

    The Science study is the first to show definitive evidence that measles can destroy this immune memory, Mina says.

    Children should probably get a Covid vaccine only after a measles vaccine because it’s a live virus.

    But neasles may not be the only virus that does that, and there may not be vaccines against them.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  94. Here’s a good explanation of why the VAERS “data” is useful only to mislead.

    https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/scary-reports-deaths-following-covid-19-vaccination-arent-what-they-seem

    The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) was established in 1990 as a national early warning system to detect potential safety problems with vaccines. It is managed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

    The system allows anyone who has received a vaccine (not just a COVID-19 vaccine) to report “adverse events” (think side effects) that they experience following vaccination. Health care providers are required to submit reports of events that come to their attention even if the events clearly have no relationship to vaccination.

    The system serves to alert federal health authorities to potential safety concerns, but it is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a particular problem. All reports to the system are unverified.

    Since December 2020, more than 350 million doses of COVID-19 vaccine have been administered in the U.S., and VAERS has received 6,968 reports of death (0.0019%), according to the CDC. (Numbers as of Aug. 26, 2021.)

    However, that statistic offers no insight into the cause of death for those people. If a 90-year-old nursing home resident got the vaccine and then died days, weeks or even months later of another ailment, the resident’s death would be reported to VAERS.

    So, a system that 1) requires reports of all coincidental deaths, 2) accepts these reports from the public, and 3) validates none of them, shows that 2 in 100,000 people are reported to have died some [unknown] time after getting a vaccine for [possibly related] reasons.

    VAERS serves the same purpose for medical investigators as the police tip line does after a major crime. In both cases, however, there is an awful lot of crazy surrounding the truth.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  95. @82 for some people, vaccination did end up as an harmful act.

    Granted. But fewer people were harmed by the vaccine than BY THE VIRUS.

    The numbers aren’t even close.

    It’s the totally lack of empathy of this risk analysis that find disturbing.

    whembly (123289) — 10/12/2021 @ 1:39 pm

    You know, not to come across as lacking empathy, but there is no perfect solution. Whatever choices policymakers make, or fail to make…whatever they do, or don’t do…some people will be helped, and some will be hurt. The question is, which if the available options is the best choice?

    And even there, there’s room for debate. Should we maximize the number of people helped, even if that means an increased number who are hurt? Is it better to do a little good for a lot of people, or a lot of good for a smaller number? (Or, to reverse that formulation, is it better for a lot of people to be harmed a little, or for a much smaller number to be harmed a lot?) Should we take most of our pain now, or spread it out over a long time? And there will always be consequences you can’t foresee. And even all of that is assuming that the good and harm only exists on one axis; quite often, what helps in one area hurts in another.

    But the thing is, you know all this. You’ve demonstrated that you do, in this site’s comment section, on more than one occasion. So I hope you’ll forgive me if I say that I am having a little trouble sympathizing with your hand-wringing over why there isn’t more hand-wringing from people like me.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  96. Then why not ban all vaccine mandates?

    There are some who have demanded that all along. There’s just more now that the mandate isn’t just for other people.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  97. – John Adams? You couldn’t hold his lantern, lawn jockey.

    mg (8cbc69)

  98. Whembly, I have sympathy for people harmed by the vaccine and some for people just scared of it. The risks are very small but not zero. As you pointed out, risk needs to be considered in relation to other risks.

    From the link NJRob posted but apparently didn’t read

    Nevertheless, the latest data do not negate the previous finding that myocarditis is more common after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after vaccination.

    So picking one, very unlikely, risk and blowing it out of proportion to the likelihood of occurrence isn’t a well supported rejection of taking the vaccine, and since the impact of not having high level of vaccination isn’t restricted to the individual there’s a strong case for mandates.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  99. A Paper Linking COVID-19 Vaccines to High Risk of Myocarditis Has Been Withdrawn

    A preprint study first uploaded to MedRxiv that claimed a 1 in 1,000 risk of contracting myocarditis from a COVID-19 vaccination has been withdrawn due to miscalculations.
    ……..
    The study was first published on September 16 and conducted by researchers at The University of Ottawa Heart Institute. It was widely used to promote the idea that the COVID-19 vaccine is unsafe for use.
    ……..
    The rate of myocarditis – the inflammation of the heart muscle – was calculated by dividing the number of COVID-19 vaccines in Ottawa by the number of incidences of the heart condition.

    By their calculations, the risk of myocarditis was 1 in 1,000 or 0.1 percent.

    However, the numbers used by the study were wrong. The authors largely underestimated the amount of vaccines delivered, giving a number 25 times smaller than the actual amount.

    They initially said that the number of vaccines delivered was 32,379 – when it was actually 854,930.
    …….
    …….[A] preprint study on the prevalence of myocarditis in young men found that they are six times more likely to develop myocarditis from COVID-19 than from the vaccine.
    ……..
    Oops. Nevermind.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  100. #68
    1. Would you be less likely to get tested for Covid antibodies if you knew the result would be transmitted to state health records?

    No. I’m of the opinion that particular genie left the bottle and ran off with Eric Schmidt a long time ago. I’d be happy to drop my vax info AND recovered immunity info on some people and tell them to get the F away from me.

    2. Would you be upset to know that there ARE state health records with your name on them?

    20 years ago maybe. I already feel like somewhere in the bowels of Joe Biden’s umm administration, there is a person coding me in as “positive revenue generating unit SS # ***-**-****”
    The only saving grace is incompetence. For example when you get a IRS request for audit they ask for your tax returns for the years such and such. I sent them to you, which is how you know to take another look? Someone at the IRS has them, go ask them?
    I’ve heard they do that in case some fool is keeping two sets of books and sends the wrong ones, but its probably just lazy incompetence codified.
    So I’m probably safe unless I run for office as a GOP candidate, in which case some journalist with a c- average from Cal State San Berdoo can get my records within ten minutes of sending the shop steward a text

    steveg (e81d76)

  101. So divide by 4, plus 2, carry the bullshift, oh Covid vaccines cure myocarditis, cool.

    During March 2020–January 2021, the risk for myocarditis was 0.146% among patients with COVID-19 and 0.009% among patients without COVID-19. Among patients with COVID-19, the risk for myocarditis was higher among males (0.187%) than among females (0.109%) and was highest among adults aged ≥75 years (0.238%), 65–74 years (0.186%), and 50–64 years (0.155%) and among children aged <16 years (0.133%).

    That would be. 0.00584% for vaccinated folks vs 0.009%, again, get vaccinated, don’t get Covid…or myocarditis.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  102. If some comrades really believe that the Covid-19 virus was produced in a Wuhan lab, why do they not also believe that it is treason and giving aid and comfort to the enemy to let it run loose in America, killing more Americans and damaging our economy with every day that goes by?

    Or do they already believe that and it is what they want?

    But why would they want it?

    Well, traitors?

    Why are you helping China destroy America?

    nk (1d9030)

  103. To show the Chinese I’m not so risk adverse that I won’t fight back to a lockdown over BS.
    Because I’m not going to cower before the scolds and stay in my govt subsidized hovel because some small percentage of people die from a bad cold?

    steveg (e81d76)

  104. Last.
    Because at those death rates per 100 infected and the demographics it never would have destroyed America. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, but instead everyone put on the pu**yhats, Netflix and called Uber Eats.
    If this was the Chinese, this panic was a win for them.

    steveg (e81d76)

  105. And if enough people are vaccinated so that we have achieved herd immunity, you will not have anything you mentioned @104 and @105 to fight against, and your life will be without purpose?

    nk (1d9030)

  106. Texas airlines defy Abbott, comply with Biden vaccine order

    American Airlines and Southwest Airlines will continue to require COVID-19 vaccinations for their employees as required by the Biden administration, defying Texas Gov. Greg Abbott’s (R) executive order banning all vaccine mandates in the state.
    …….
    “We are reviewing the executive order issued by Gov. Abbott, but we believe the federal vaccine mandate supersedes any conflicting state laws, and this does not change anything for American,” an American Airlines spokesperson said in a statement.

    Southwest Airlines took the same stance Tuesday, stating that “federal action supersedes any state mandate or law.”
    …….
    Abbott’s new executive order is a reversal from his previous stance that the government shouldn’t tell private businesses how to handle vaccine mandates.
    …….
    Political theater starring Greg Abbott. He’s running to his right.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  107. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger

    And if you’re going to quote Nietzsche, get it right. He said “the pure metal” becomes stronger. He did not say what happens to “the dross” (both terms his) but my guess is that it becomes stranger.

    nk (1d9030)

  108. – John Adams? You couldn’t hold his lantern, lawn jockey.

    mg (8cbc69) — 10/12/2021 @ 2:51 pm

    I am assuming this was meant for me. Although I see didn’t dare actually address it to me. Did you hope I would miss it? Would that make you feel like you put one over on me? To quote your orange master: Sad!

    In any case, I actually agree with you for once. (At least with the main thrust of what you said, not with the somewhat racist insult you appended to it. I see DS-CSA taught you well.) I would not be worthy of the honor of assisting Mr. Adams.

    But then, neither would you. TROLL.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  109. Vaccine mandates. What’s next? The Biden administration forcing banks to turn over American’s bank account debits/credits for anything over $600?

    Hoi Polloi (998b37)

  110. Why are you helping China destroy America?
    nk (1d9030) — 10/12/2021 @ 5:00 pm

    LOL

    You liberal trolls are funny.

    Hoi Polloi (998b37)

  111. There is no legal federal order. I hope Southwest and American pilots and workers keep cling out and Abbott sues them to oblivion.

    NJRob (33e46f)

  112. Calling out*

    NJRob (33e46f)

  113. I hope Southwest and American pilots and workers keep cling out and Abbott sues them to oblivion.

    For freedom!

    Biden’s order only applies to businesses with more than 100 employees. So who is paying the Greg Abbott to drive small businesses, including small independent airlines, into bankruptcy and/or out of Texas? Amazon is a natural suspect as is Walmart. And the big airlines in the long run. Who else? The big food producers? Oil companies? Shipping companies?

    nk (1d9030)

  114. you have to serve the cake to the unvaccinated.

    Or: You have to let the unvaccinated bake the cake and serve your customers.

    Radegunda (7879d0)

  115. If some comrades really believe that the Covid-19 virus was produced in a Wuhan lab, why do they not also believe that it is treason and giving aid and comfort to the enemy to let it run loose in America, killing more Americans and damaging our economy with every day that goes by?

    Did you know that terrorists use email spam to hide their messages to their sleepers? Well, they might. We should kill all spammers just to make sure.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  116. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger

    He might have been quoting any of a thousand Hollywood action movies.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  117. There is no legal federal order.

    There IS a federal order. You would be unwise to assume it is illegal. I think it is, you think it is, but then I thought Obamacare was illegal.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  118. You have to let the unvaccinated bake the cake and serve your customers.

    Although, when the liability lawyers come for you, Governor Abbott will be nowhere nearby.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  119. Amazon is a natural suspect as is Walmart.

    Covid has been good to Jeff Bezos.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  120. Kevin M,

    show me the OSHA regulation.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  121. Does anyone agree with me that both the federal government AND a state government telling businesses what they must and mustn’t mandate are wrong?

    norcal (b9a35f)

  122. 95. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/12/2021 @ 2:31 pm

    that 2 in 100,000 people are reported to have died some [unknown] time after getting a vaccine for [possibly related] reasons.

    They don’t separate people who became sick with Covid right around the time they got a vaccine. This is crazy.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  123. 122. norcal (b9a35f) — 10/12/2021 @ 11:27 pm

    Does anyone agree with me that both the federal government AND a state government telling businesses what they must and mustn’t mandate are wrong?

    A state government has more power in this field, but everyone (and courts) should acknowledge that what they tell them may be wrong.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  124. Troll – ok buffoon.

    mg (8cbc69)

  125. A state government has more power in this field,

    Not when it affects interstate commerce, Sammy.

    nk (1d9030)

  126. mg: “Troll – ok buffoon.”

    Peak interaction potential

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  127. Troll – ok buffoon.

    mg (8cbc69) — 10/13/2021 @ 3:00 am

    Thank you! I love to be proven right.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  128. you have to serve the cake to the unvaccinated.

    Or: You have to let the unvaccinated bake the cake and serve your customers.

    Radegunda (7879d0) — 10/12/2021 @ 8:30 pm

    For Texas nursing homes, which have struggled during a pandemic that has ravaged their residents and decimated their workforce, a federal rule announced in August requires all nursing home employees to be vaccinated in order for their facilities to continue participating in the Medicare and Medicaid programs. If nursing homes instead comply with Abbott’s new rule, they could lose critical federal money. https://www.texastribune.org/2021/10/12/texas-businesses-vaccine-requirements-greg-abbott/

    I guarantee, only a handful of boutique nursing homes for the very well-off could survive without Medicare or Medicaid. I rely on all you all to tell me about the VA system.

    But, wait, there’s more. No more organized sports, amateur or professional, above high school junior varsity in Texas? Bye-bye Cowboys, Astros, Rockets? Longhorns, Aggies?

    nk (1d9030)

  129. Does anyone agree with me that both the federal government AND a state government telling businesses what they must and mustn’t mandate are wrong?

    norcal (b9a35f) — 10/12/2021 @ 11:27 pm

    Yes. I think congress could construct a mandate that was constitutional. But that should be an individual mandate.
    Government as employer can set requirements for employees.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  130. @ 130:

    I don’t know that you can square that circle, Time. If an individual mandate is constitutional, in any construction, then you should be able to find a similarly constitutional business mandate. If, on the other hand, it is unconstitutional — I would say that instead of simply “wrong” — for the government to do something, then it is likewise unconstitutional for them to force other people to do it as a way of accomplishing the same end.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  131. D, I meant that congress could lawfully pass such a mandate for businesses but that it would be better policy to do it as an individual mandate. I don’t think we should do so here. But if Covid had a ~10% fatality rate instead of a ~1% fatality rate I’d balance it differently.

    So yes, I think congress has the legal authority to mandate universal vaccination. I also think that should be used only for highly contagious illness with very severe health impacts when the vaccine is very low risk. I think the Covid Vaccine is a borderline case and I would take the time to try progressively more coercive measures to get it under control. I don’t approve of they to use an EO to mandate it for employers. I do approve of employers (including government as employer) mandating it for employees.

    Also, I think much of the opposition is disingenuous at best and i don’t pay much attention to MAGA people who have suddenly discovered a love for limited government.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  132. Limited government, right. They want all the things they don’t like to be illegal, and the things they like to be mandatory (and free to them).

    nk (1d9030)

  133. Certainly the federal government…like it or not….has broad power to regulate interstate commerce and economic matters that substantially effect interstate commerce (see Lopez and Morrison). So it can certainly force businesses to follow EPA, OSHA, and EEOC rules. Going back to NFIB, I think the conclusion too would be that the federal government could require all health care transactions to be made with insurance…..though of course this would be very unpopular…..but that’s different from unconstitutional. But the federal government does not have a general police power to regulate for the health and welfare….it can’t make you buy or eat broccoli….though I guess it can reasonably tax you for not buying broccoli….which again would be unpopular, though I do regularly buy broccoli.

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  134. NK, I really like Tim Carney from the Washington Examiner. I don’t agree with everything he’s written but I’ve always found him to be honest, have good common sense and a fair reporter. In a recent podcast he described it thusly;

    The dem’s don’t value limited government and never agreed to not use the state to accomplish their goals so conservatives abandoned limited government because it didn’t help them accomplish anything else.

    Basically it was a tier 2 or 3 priority to most conservatives.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  135. A state government has more power in this field,

    nk (1d9030) — 10/13/2021 @ 3:50 am

    Not when it affects interstate commerce, Sammy.

    There’s the supremacy clause when they conflict, yes.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  136. Does anyone agree with me that both the federal government AND a state government telling businesses what they must and mustn’t mandate are wrong?

    That is the point. It’s not conservative (and probably not legal) for Biden to mandate private employers to vaccinate their workforce, and it’s not conservative (but probably is legal) for Abbott to mandate private employers to not vaccinate their workforce. Either way, it’s intrusive and unnecessary governmental intervention.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  137. 129. nk (1d9030) — 10/13/2021 @ 4:44 am

    I guarantee, only a handful of boutique nursing homes for the very well-off could survive without Medicare or Medicaid.

    But there’s no legal requirement to take Medicaid or Medicare, so Abbott and the Texas state legislature (he wants the legislature to enact his order into law) could, as a practical matter, outlaw nursing homes in Texas. I wonder f they culd find another way to outlaw most abortions.

    With abortion by the way, about 6 providers dd some abortions that were illegal and torts while the law was suspended, and about another 18 continued to obey the ghost of the law.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  138. Paul, extremely well said. Fully agree.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  139. People making these mandates don
    ;;t realize this, because to them there is no downside to vaccination and it is illogical to refuse, but any lace or industry mandating Covid vaccination should expect to lose at least 5% if its workforce.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  140. In my area, restaurants are regularly inspected and required to post their health grades, prominently.

    I think it would be reasonable to require all retail establishments to post the COVID vaccination percentages of their employees, also prominently. (If that would require a change in law, I would support such a change, especially if the law had a time limit, of, say, five years.)

    (Fun fact: The local Ben and Jerry’s is covered by the law and, at their last inspection, got the equivalent of a “C” grade. Since I find the company annoying, and am disgusted by their attack on Israel, I smile whenever I see that grade.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  141. @121

    Kevin M,

    show me the OSHA regulation.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 10/12/2021 @ 10:27 pm

    NJRob, that isn’t OSHA.

    The airlines are federal contractors due to all those government spendings they received. Biden appears to have the power to mandate this for all federal workers (including contractors).

    whembly (7e0293)

  142. 132. Time123 (9f42ee) — 10/13/2021 @ 6:14 am

    I think the Covid Vaccine is a borderline case and I would take the time to try progressively more coercive measures to get it under control. I don’t approve of they to use an EO to mandate it for employers.

    I think the people trying to get more and more people vaccinated are hoping against hope that if enough people in the United States are vaccinated, this will all go away or be de minimis.

    They have no basis for calculating a vaccination percentage where that will happen. But that’s their game plan.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  143. Sammy, That’s my game plan. Based on what I’ve seen vaccination cuts hospitalization and deaths by more then an order of magnitude. I think once we’ve got the death and hospitalization down to that of a normal flu year (20-30k a year) this will behind us.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  144. There is no legal federal order. I hope Southwest and American pilots and workers keep cling out and Abbott sues them to oblivion.

    NJRob (33e46f) — 10/12/2021 @ 7:08 pm

    Untrue. Executive Order 14042 was issued on September 9th and covers federal contractors. The airlines are federal contractors.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  145. “to them there is no downside to vaccination and it is illogical to refuse”

    That’s why they call experimental gene therapy a ‘vaccination’, when it most certainly isn’t.

    “I don’t understand the justification for this”

    It’s because P. is ignorant of biology (most likely willfully, and it explains his insouciant stance on transism, but to be fair information on this issue is ruthlessly suppressed on threadbare justification) about the long-term risks inherent in the cl0tsh0t, involving the risk of the injected self-reproducing protein-producing RNA segments migrating away from the injection site and producing proteins and inducing immune response in places that are extremely inconvenient to even healthy people, like heart and lung muscle.

    Looong after injection.

    In ways that are completely unpredictable.

    And that don’t necessarily produce all that reliable an immune response to new variants anyway.

    Because there was no long-term testing of the aftereffects prior to approval and being forced out.

    “you don’t have to bake the cake, but you have to serve the cake to the unvaccinated.”

    Prefer you used a more common honorific expressing your dumb-ass corporate-trained prejudices, like “The Untouchables”, or possibly a word beginning with N.

    Striker Sam (af1521)

  146. That’s why they call experimental gene therapy a ‘vaccination’, when it most certainly isn’t.

    It’s neither “experimental” nor “gene therapy”, Sam. All three vaccines passed all three necessary phases of clinical trials, and the mRNA vaccines aren’t gene therapy because they don’t alter DNA.
    You’re spewing anti-vax propaganda.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  147. Striker Sam is the VPN mentally ill person. He spews a lot of things. The last time, the vaccine was not gene therapy, it was a simple saline placebo.

    nk (1d9030)

  148. It figures, nk. His comment did have that familiar smell.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  149. “Spittle flecked keyboard” seems relevant.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  150. mg, for all his faults, is not a troll. He just wants to be to the Right of everyone else.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  151. So yes, I think congress has the legal authority to mandate universal vaccination.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 10/13/2021 @ 6:14 am

    I’m afraid I can’t agree. The only power of Congress that MIGHT stretch to a vaccination mandate is the Commerce Clause, and its exercise in this context would be ugly — such as, for example, requiring Americans to show proof of vaccination in order to engage in certain commercial activities. The broader it is, the easier it would be for the Supreme Court to overturn. And the narrower it is, the less it would serve its purpose.

    Now, the federal government, like any other employer, can mandate vaccinations as a condition of gaining or keeping a job. But for people like me, who don’t hold a job with them? No way.

    Demosthenes (832a17)

  152. Demonsthenes, did we setting that with the Smallpox vaccine?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  153. Yes. I think congress could construct a mandate that was constitutional. But that should be an individual mandate.

    Government as employer can set requirements for employees.

    Leaving aside the degree to which the federal government has overstepped its powers, given what they already claim the power to do, I don’t see federal regulation being “unlawful.”

    But not by Presidential Decree. Nor even by the president ordering OSHA to draft a particular rule — the same Administrative Procedures Act that hamstrung Trump applies here. OSHA might be able to get such an order through the system by next March or so.

    Certainly the president has power over federal government agencies. He probably has power over federal contractors. I note that he does NOT claim power over state or local government employees; do OSHA rules not apply to them?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  154. mg, for all his faults, is not a troll. He just wants to be to the Right of everyone else.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/13/2021 @ 10:38 am

    Mmmm…afraid I can’t agree with you there. I might be convinced to reconsider my admittedly ungenerous assessment, if mg ever said anything with more than a fleck of substance in it. But I doubt the likelihood of that happening.

    But speaking of trolls…

    Striker Sam (af1521) — 10/13/2021 @ 9:16 am

    Howdy, Socko! We’ve missed you. How long were you in the drawer this time?

    Demosthenes (832a17)

  155. So yes, I think congress has the legal authority to mandate universal vaccination.

    Congress has the power to withhold money from STATES that don’t mandate universal vaccination. The President does not though, unless a law already says he can (which it doesn’t or Trump would have cut off money to California for lots of reasons).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  156. Demonsthenes, did we setting that with the Smallpox vaccine?

    I’m pretty sure the case was about a NY state order.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  157. But for people like me, who don’t hold a job with them? No way.

    I am, for the moment, a contractor to a federal contractor. Not sure about the transitive property here.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  158. “All three vaccines passed all three necessary phases of clinical trials”

    Which are notoriously terrible at detecting long-term effects even if we weren’t in a situation where the largest drug companies have revolving door personnel at the regulatory agencies and have strong incentives to rubber-stamp results and suppress failures.

    Depend on nk to be the fastest with the WE WERE TECHNICALLY LEGALLY COMPLIANT WHICH MAKES RISKY DECISIONS OKAY response.

    “and the mRNA vaccines aren’t gene therapy because they don’t alter DNA.”

    Not unless translated properly, but it’s a non-trivial risk when you’re injecting instructions instead of finished proteins. If they did, how would you know? I notice you didn’t deny the fact that they weren’t a ‘vaccine’ in the traditional sense either.

    But as to these bold pronouncements on how they ‘don’t alter DNA’, do you have any experimental findings to support that statement not directly or indirectly dependent on drug company money to operate? Any “control groups”? Anything that would indicate a path away from the “replication crisis” in medicine and most other scientific fields?

    “spews”
    “familiar smell”
    “Spittle flecked”

    I see that the Liberal KeyBoard Warrior Lost Argument Projection Style Guide is in full effect. We’ll be looking forward to you someday making a response you didn’t copy-paste from it. We’ll also be looking forward to your letters to the grieving families of healthy people who dropped dead out of nowhere post-vaccine assuring us that all appropriate procedures were followed and all lawyers involved were paid promptly.

    Bernard Bully (e559a4)

  159. Demonsthenes, did we setting that with the Smallpox vaccine?

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 10/13/2021 @ 10:42 am

    See Kevin’s response @ 156.

    There are many things, even good things, the federal government does not have the power to do. And if it doesn’t have the power to do them, it doesn’t have the power to force states, businesses, or individuals to do them either. But it does have the power to incentivize. This is why, for example, even though there is no federal minimum drinking age, every state has set the same minimum. They didn’t want to face the loss of funding (federal highway funds, if I remember correctly) that would come with setting a lower minimum at, say, 18.

    So Biden’s mandate is pretty flagrantly unconstitutional. But if Congress were to pass a law forbidding the allocation of federal funds to any institution that did not have a vaccine mandate in place…well, THAT they have the power to do. And if Congress were to pass a law withholding a certain chunk of Medicare money from any state that did not mandate the COVID vaccine, there is ample precedent suggesting their action would be legal.

    The airline question is an interesting one, though. As is the independent contractor question. I don’t know the answers to those.

    Demosthenes (832a17)

  160. I notice you didn’t deny the fact that they weren’t a ‘vaccine’ in the traditional sense either.

    No one has time to deny all the crap you say, Socko! We just pick ripe targets of opportunity and wait for you to drown in your own bile.

    Demosthenes (832a17)

  161. Which are notoriously terrible at detecting long-term effects even if we weren’t in a situation where the largest drug companies have revolving door personnel at the regulatory agencies and have strong incentives to rubber-stamp results and suppress failures.

    That is the next excuse the anti-vaxxers make. It’s okay, steppe nomad, I know what and who you are.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  162. The airline question is an interesting one, though.

    Since the major carriers ( American Airlines, Alaska Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Hawaiian Airlines, JetBlue, Silver Airways, Southwest Airlines and United Airlines) have contracts with the federal government to provide discounted air travel for federal employees. In addition, the military uses civilian airlines to provide transport in an emergency (through the Civil Air Reserve Fleet). In fact there are more airlines that are part of the CARF than those that provide federal government travel (see link for a list).

    They are federal contractors.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  163. @159, if you don’t want to be dismissed and laughed at stop acting like an angry clown with nothing interesting to say.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  164. @154, good clarification Kevin. OSHA has some emergency powers; however, it must determine that workers are in grave danger and that an emergency standard is needed to protect them. The current situation is hard to describe as grave…especially when you simultaneously exempt companies with fewer than 100 employees. The mandate is also broad enough to cover some people who pose virtually zero threat to others (ie remote workers and those with acquired…if not temporary…immunity)….so this reeks of bad faith. Still, the problem remains Congress…who should either craft its own guidance or clarify OSHA’s power here. More and more forced executive action is bad for the democracy….no matter who’s in power. Biden overstepping does not help with winning consensus.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  165. @ Rip, #163: Yeah, that sounds right.

    @ Time, #164: I hate to disagree with you again, but I think Socko has many interesting things to say. I am personally gratified by how much of his time he takes to spread the Tru Conservitive message of truth, love, and justice to all us benighted liberal progressive socialist commie pinkos. And I for one can’t wait to hear more.

    Play on, sweet Socko. Play on.

    Demosthenes (832a17)

  166. BTW, here’s a link about mRNA not being gene therapy. This disinformation is being propagated by anti-vax cranks like Joseph Mercola and RFK Jr., and lapped up by the ignorant rubes who take these propagandists seriously.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  167. Biden is also claiming authority over medical personnel who work for institutions that take Medicare or Medicaid money, or take such themselves. IANAL, nor do I care to peruse the CFRs, so it’s hard to say if he can.

    I doubt that any such facility is going to challenge it though; not only do they have too much to lose but it will get a lot of patients looking elsewhere. What they will do is issue mandates, but have very liberal application of “belief” exemptions.

    Maybe some GP in Mississippi will make a case out of it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  168. @167: And in any event there is the J&J shot which isn’t even mRNA.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  169. anti-vax cranks like Joseph Mercola and RFK Jr

    RFK, Jr would use any argument that came to mind hand. If he thought bringing Xenu into the argument would help, he would.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  170. “That is the next excuse the anti-vaxxers make.”

    CONFLICT OF INTEREST? INSTITUTIONAL BIAS? PERVERSE INCENTIVES? SUSPICIOUS BEHAVIOR? LEGAL IMPUNITY? THESE ARE KNOWN AS “WORDS THAT KULAKS USE!”

    “stop acting like an angry clown with nothing interesting to say.”

    The angry clown movie made more money than you ever will, probably because it addressed (or at least pretended/attempted to address) relevant social questions more seriously and artfully than you ever did.

    The three legal stooges of Time, nk, and Paul have thus far remained in fine liberal form, attempting to deflect, refusing to address central points, fixating on errors in irrelevant sections, and otherwise doing the rhetorical equivalent of pounding the table.

    “No one has time to deny all the crap you say, Socko!”

    Not the relevant portions, certainly. The C19 shot is not a vaccine, does not have the clinical results that vaccines normally do, and has unacceptably risky and unpredictable long-term side effects far more serious in healthy people than any previous vaccine we’ve seen, and these are easily derivable from its method of operation and death profiles even with suppressed reporting and autopsies. That’s why several countries not beholden to US pharma funding have already banned it.

    Socko Msockic (98c9a3)

  171. Socko, silly man, I just addressed your disinformation about gene therapy, and there’s a lot more where that came from. I’ll also note that you’re basically arm-waving, not backing up your assertions from any credible source. “Because I said so” is not an argument, nor is there any credibility coming out of the mouths of Mercola, RFK Jr. and their little circle of anti-vax nutjobs.

    Paul Montagu (1888f5)

  172. Paul, when you mud wrestle a pig you both wind up covered in filth but the pig likes it.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  173. You’re right, Time. I’ll shut up now.

    Paul Montagu (1888f5)

  174. @ Time, #173: That’s certainly true. But though I hate to admit it, I am deriving genuine enjoyment from Socko’s fevered drivel. What he says not only doesn’t comport with the world, it doesn’t even have internal coherence. Yet he perseveres, spitting into the wind of both logic and reality. It’s inspiring, in a way. It’s performance art, all the better for being spontaneous.

    Demosthenes (832a17)

  175. #175

    Hm. I prefer the happyfeet approach of crazed good cheer to the raging smelly guy on the side of the road who is poaching bandwidth from the Starbucks that threw him out last month.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  176. Appalled, I am appalled at you! Socko wouldn’t be caught dead in a Starbucks. They are too liberal for him. I have it on good authority that he got chucked out of a Black Rifle Coffee Company when he started questioning whether they weren’t just another liberal front.

    I mean, to quote our current creepy president, c’mon, man! Just because everything else you wrote is substantially true does not excuse you from the necessity of avoiding basic errors like that.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  177. OT: Do politicians realize the damage they do to themselves when they sell your contact information to every crazy candidate in the universe? It will be a very long time before I ever donate to another candidate, and only then from a opaque gmail account. Probably from the side of the road outside a Starbucks on a rented laptop.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  178. Monty:

    “I just addressed your disinformation about gene therapy”

    lol, no you didn’t. You responded to a keyword with a link instead of an argument, because you only have the software to respond to keywords.

    Orac spends lots of text to whine about how disinformation makes him and his colleagues feel bad, making you think he’s smart, but his relevant section was three words you couldn’t bother to find yourself, because you’re lazy. He claims the Covid 19 studies show the vaccine is ‘very effective in the field,’ the experimental results since then have shown breakthrough infections, variants, and terrible side effects. He’s a liberal global-warming believing human biology-denier who can’t or won’t look past the lab and the grant request, no better than Fauci.

    The only relevant complaint in that link you could respond with was literally just “It’s pure speculation.” And I don’t trust people who get free mandatory guinea pigs with mandatory yearly vaccination updates to not try new things, up to and including ‘gene therapy’. When vaccines were just deactivated proteins, you didn’t have to worry about leakage, but….lets go to Orac’s description here, because he restates my main point:

    If you’re wondering what would happen if the RNA from a vaccine were accidentally picked up by this proposed mechanism and integrated into the host cell, any of the following scenarios:

    The sequence would behave like a processed pseudogene, lacking any ability to recruit host transcription machinery and would sit in the genome, quiescent.
    If the sequence somehow inserted downstream of a promoter sequence that could recruit transcription machinery, the cell would express spike protein, be recognized by the immune system, and then be killed.
    If the sequence inserted itself into the middle of gene (specifically in the middle of an exon), you would get a mutant protein that had sequences from SARS-CoV-2 that would be processed by antigen-presenting machinery and trigger a T cell response that killed the cell.

    KILLING THE CELL FROM AUTOIMMUNE RESPONSE is precisely the scenario I outlined that matches the side effects and that you refused to address.

    “Introducing a new or modified gene into the body to help treat a disease”

    “and there’s a lot more where that came from. I’ll also note that you’re basically arm-waving, not backing up your assertions from any credible source.”

    The ‘credible source’ you cited was not credible. The experimental results in the field belie his assertions. So you’re going to have to use your brain and watch for actual results and not just STUDIES WE PAID FOR SHOW.

    “”Because I said so” is not an argument, nor is there any credibility coming out of the mouths of Mercola, RFK Jr. and their little circle of anti-vax nutjobs.”

    Never read them, never needed them. Orac spends oodles of text handwringing over how ‘the software model’ is TERRIBLE OPTICS but that’s exactly the model the C19 distribution is following, along with the familiar automatic updates that break stuff randomly that require a full-time staff of software engineers to fix.

    Pantsman Mcgee (35984e)

  179. trigger a T cell response that killed the cell.

    They don;t like to call attention to it – in fact I have never heard this said, and maybe that’s a sign if dishinesty on the part of those irging people to get vaccinated, but of course a cell infected by the mRNA is killed. But the bdy can spare them. It has plenty.

    Cells infected by the virus also are killed, but the virus is not self-limiting.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  180. Yep, back to “because I said so”, that Orac is not credible. You left out the last part of the blockquote.

    But antivaxxers like Mercola have to latch on to this study because they can’t make the argument that mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines are a “gene therapy,” not a vaccine, if they can’t show even a ghost of a mechanism by which the RNA from such vaccines could alter cellular DNA.

    Like I said, there’s more where that came from.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  181. @156

    So yes, I think congress has the legal authority to mandate universal vaccination.

    Congress has the power to withhold money from STATES that don’t mandate universal vaccination. The President does not though, unless a law already says he can (which it doesn’t or Trump would have cut off money to California for lots of reasons).

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/13/2021 @ 10:45 am

    Yeah, dunno about Congress.

    This is explicitly a states right, and really a parallel to the fight the Trump administration tried with sanctuary states (where he lost).

    whembly (7e0293)

  182. Whembly, in the abstract, I agree. In practice, the state can either say “keep your damn money then” or accept the terms.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  183. Trump lost with the sanctuary states because there was no statutory power, like there is with the 21yo drinking rules and highway funds. If there had been a law that said “only states that comply and assist with federal immigration law may get ___ funds” then Trump would have had some power.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  184. You fascinate me, Man of Many Names. You seem intelligent, and your English is too good to be a Russian sh!t-stirrer.

    If you are engaging in performance art, why don’t you take a bow every now and then?

    If are serious, then I suggest you consider that even smart people can have blind spots, and fall for conspiracy theories, especially if they don’t get out and socialize (I’m just guessing here). Dude, go out and get laid. Have some fun. Live it up. Crack some jokes. You just might see things in a new light.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  185. Move over Boomers, Gen X wants its turn:

    COVID-19 was the No. 1 killer of Americans age 35 to 54 last month

    [T]he Delta variant hit and found ample unvaccinated Americans to kick COVID-19 back up to the No. 2 killer in August and September, the leading cause of death for Americans age 35 to 54, and even the sixth or seventh leading cause of death for children.

    Among older Americans in September, Covid was only #3. Probably because they are 90% vaccinated.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  186. Oh, c’mon, Kevin. Everyone knows that the vaccine is no good. It has zero effects whatsoever. Except that it will kill your immune system, because it’s basically all saline. Oh, and it will allow Bill Gates to track you through his nefarious subcutaneous micro-microchips. And it will rewrite your genetic code to make you a different species, which you will pass onto your children. And then it will make you impotent. Or…wait, will it make you impotent first, and THEN you pass the effects onto your kids…

    This is too much for me to keep track of. Just pass me another tube of horse dewormer and a UV light I can dangle down my throat. That’s the way my grandpappy done it.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

Leave a Reply

Comment moderation is enabled. Your comment may take some time to appear.


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.5324 secs.