Patterico's Pontifications

9/27/2021

Never Mind

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



Legend has it that Larry David once walked out to do a stand-up act, looked at the audience, and said “never mind.” Then walked off stage.

I feel like that today, except about the news stories. (Not about you folks!)

Something about Trump Trump Trump? Nah.

Something about Ben Garrison getting COVID? Nope.

Something about Biden’s plan to spend us into oblivion? Mmmmm . . . boring.

Matt Gaetz on one side? People calling everything they don’t like “white nationalism” on the other?

Never mind.

130 Responses to “Never Mind”

  1. I have chosen to spend my time putting up the Sunday post that I neglected to put up yesterday. I am out of the habit. The trial destroyed a lot of my habits that I am working to restore . . .

    Patterico (e349ce)

  2. I, too, recommend against showing your face in the public gallery when every position you’ve carefully workshopped to be most attractive to the Republican donor class is the exact opposite of ‘vindicated by facts, logic, and public events.’

    The nonstop propaganda machine you’ve made a deal with can only focus on a few big moneymaking subjects at once and mostly sticks to properly tested, tried-and-true subjects like climate change, racism, and covid.

    Pushing positions that are less relevant, less generalized or less popular, like “all we need is to make sure the numbers in the government account books balance”, “the last election was a model of security and stability, in particular the mail-in-voting portion”, or “The most trustworthy people in Washington DC are the heads of the civil service bureaucracies” tends to be much more labor-intensive and less likely to “stick” in the minds of people without constant reinforcement, and moreover tends to create resentment and distrust among the people for the messaging apparatus as well.

    Lacking Prebuttal (ae1d30)

  3. “Never Mind”
    Sounds very Californian

    mg (8cbc69)

  4. Actually more PNW and maybe a clever nod to the 30th anniversary of the release of a overrated band and it’s overrated breakthrough album.

    urbanleftbehind (c073c9)

  5. I understand our host’s ennui. Really — what more can be said about Trump? Whose opinion is changed by it?

    What more can be said about the un-vaxxed? I can’t imagine the mind that prefers the side-effects of COVID to a bad afternoon with the vaccine.

    About the spending? I gave up thinking anyone in power cared when the Trump administration chose the drunken sailor budgetary plan and the Freedom Caucus said hooray.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  6. “I understand our host’s ennui. Really — what more can be said about Trump? Whose opinion is changed by it?”

    Trump was right about everything, and the pose of being UGH SO BORED about it is a classic liberal sign that you know you’ve lost every poorly sourced, context-free, and obviously projected argument you’ve ever made against him.

    (Liberals NEVER admit to failure, they simply take action to change the social environment away from any attention paid to the subject they lost on. When they’re losing on every subject at once, as in this instance, they take a “sabbatical” or ‘time off’ or ‘self-care’. Their interactions almost never advance beyond managerial process manipulation, whining to the ref, redefining the terms, etc.)

    These statements will change no opinions, but they will heap burning coals upon the heads of the guilt, immoral, and mendacious consciences.

    “What more can be said about the un-vaxxed? I can’t imagine the mind that prefers the side-effects of COVID to a bad afternoon with the vaccine.”

    “I prefer yet another common Chinese flu variant to some untested experimental treatment that barely works as advertised, needs ten boosters, employs more ANTI-DENIALISTS than the global warming cabal, and has an unacceptably high chance of causing very uncommon myocarditis, which can kill people within 1-5 years.”

    “About the spending? I gave up thinking anyone in power cared when the Trump administration chose the drunken sailor budgetary plan and the Freedom Caucus said hooray.”

    When you have a theoretically infinite money printer, the problem is never how much it should print but who should have control of that power. Liberals want to use that money power to corporatize every single aspect of life and engineer the Perfect Corporate Xir/Xim, conservatives want to stop or slow down the process while still taking bribes from those corporations. Advantage to the latter.

    Anklebiter Triumph (5bc683)

  7. #6 To sum up:

    1. “Trump was right about everything”

    2. “I prefer yet another common Chinese flu variant to some untested experimental treatment that barely works as advertised,”

    3. “When you have a theoretically infinite money printer, the problem is never how much it should print but who should have control of that power.”

    In an ideal state, blog comment sections should be a discussion board with some give and take. Your three postulates foreclose any of that. And demonstrate why I get ennui on these issues.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  8. More passive-aggressiveness demanding aggression-aggression:

    “In an ideal state,”

    Well there’s your first problem, teenage idealism that you never grew out of.

    “blog comment sections should be”

    Classic ‘ought versus is’ fallacy right there. Imagine knowing your audience rather than calling on Procrustes!

    “a discussion board with some give and take. Your three postulates foreclose any of that. And demonstrate why I get ennui on these issues.”

    Sounds like somebody asked a rhetorical question and got extremely angry when rhetorical answers were provided. The very definition of give and take, at the level of the discussion! Perhaps you lack the rhetorical skill to, as the cool kids used to say, “dish out what you’re taking?”

    Such teenage emotive outbursts from grown-ass men over entirely predictable outcomes are quite common when your view of the world is childish and ill-informed, like studies on covid efficiacy that are far too small scale to catch any margin of error, news stories written by reporters paid to toe a company line, and grandiose goals like STOPPING CLIMATE CHANGE or a WAR ON TERRORISM or TOTAL VACCINATION that have no reasonable bounds or limits to their ability to suck up money and employ ‘experts’ in perpetuity.

    You were wrong because you reasoned emotionally, then compounded your wrong by restricting your information intake from only people you approved of, then further compounded your wrong by colluding with extremely sinister corporate structures who teach people to do wrong and then find ways to profit from the wrongdoing, often with grandiose proclamations to justify it under the assumption that IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY, MAY AS WELL MAKE MONEY OFF IT.

    Etc, ad nauseam, you can leave this hellbound state of perdition at any time, but the first thing to do is admit that you’re wrong, which, as previously stated, liberals will never do, because that would violate their own egos and their collective PROGRESS NEVER FAILS religiology.

    Spike Protein (553bf3)

  9. Did you hear about the thousands of illegal crimaliens the cellar dweller has brought here with diseases?

    mg (8cbc69)

  10. Congratulations! You have finally realized conservative anti-trumpism and his now populist republican party is an intellectual dead end. No one cares about libertarian economic policy of creative destruction and free trade drivel.

    asset (3c791c)

  11. News headlines in New York Times:

    1) German elections – inconcusive not even clear which party came in first.

    2) Texas abortion stories

    3) China trying to avoid panic due to default of China Evergrande Group. It’s beern pushed.

    4) Danger of U.S. default due to political games

    5) Riker;s Island trouble

    6) $380 Covid test – blame is put on Congress for not allowing the government to negotiate prices

    WSJ also has Supply chain woes at ports

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  12. Lots of interesting things in columns and other off front page stories

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  13. “Never mind” is the reaction to anything by David French.

    DN (4cd2ce)

  14. Theory: DSCSA has three exciting new aliases.

    Demosthenes (fdbac3)

  15. Whoops. Heh. That should have been DCSCA.

    Then again…I kind of think it fits. “CSA” in sequence. Fitting.

    Demosthenes (fdbac3)

  16. #6 As satire — being a kindly fellow, I assume that was the intention — it isn’t bad. If a little nasty toward Trumpistas — but then a good satire often has a bite to it.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  17. ‘Very Concerning’: Sean Spicer Condemns 2020 Election Conspiracies and the Jan. 6 Riot on The Interview

    LOL! The conspiracies began when SS claimed about Trump’s inauguration, “this was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration, period, both in person and around the globe.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  18. I believe OGH (our gracious host) deserves a joke.

    Here’s one from some time between 602 and 610 AD:

    At that time the Byzantine* emperor was a man named Phocas. Though less well known than emperors such as Nero and Caligula, he would make many historians’ lists of the ten worst emperors, being brutal, corrupt, and incompetent.

    Citizens then interpreted almost everything in religious terms, so it isn’t surprising that one night an abbot had a dream in which he believed he was speaking to God.

    The Abbot asked God: “Do you choose our rulers?”

    God said: “Yes, that is part of my powers.”

    The abbot then asked: “So why did you give us Phocas?”

    God said: “Because I couldn’t find anyone worse.”

    I can’t stop anyone from finding modern parallels — but I won’t make them.

    (*Yes, I know, they called it the Roman empire, but not everyone knows that.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  19. Theory: DSCSA has three exciting new aliases.

    It would be more actual argument than DCSCA has engaged in for quite some time.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  20. DCSCA does not parrot Stefan Molyneux. He’s from the opposite side of that spectrum. And I don’t know him to have ever used a sock puppet let alone several hundreds. If only he hadn’t finally determined that it was Biden, not Trump, who stole the strawberries from the wardroom.

    nk (1d9030)

  21. Jim Miller, I wish it were satire, but this Man of Many Names has posted similar rants for quite some time now. If it were satire, he would take the performance hat off once in a while to get some accolades.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  22. I’d bet one of my swollen testicles that it is not DCSCA.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  23. Very Californian.

    BREAKING: California Gov. Gavin Newsom signed Assembly Bill 37 into law today, making universal vote-by-mail PERMANENT throughout the state.

    “EVERY registered CA voter will get their ballot mailed to them before a statewide election.”

    Obudman (18ecb6)

  24. BREAKING: New York Governor Kathy Hochul says she will deploy medically trained National Guard troops to replace unvaccinated healthcare workers in hospitals, who will be fired tonight.

    I hope she thanked the ones being fired for standing in the front lines fighting Covid for over a year and a half.

    Obudman (18ecb6)

  25. You three make fair points.

    Demosthenes (fdbac3)

  26. By which I mean Kevin, nk, and norcal. Not the Three SockMigos. Just in case that needed to be said.

    Demosthenes (fdbac3)

  27. Good arguments are dismissed as satire by midwits who can’t respond to them, and despite your protestations otherwise it seems you’re not really capable of anything other than gawking around in a circle united in shared mediocrity instead of engaging with anyone who disagrees with you. Old dogs, new tricks, etc.

    It’s okay, polemics are a skill, and when you obviously haven’t used these skills in even a competitive (much less adversarial) fashion for a while, having an old pro kick you around is enough to cause all mental resolve and originality to fail, and you fall back on tired old liberal RACIST SEXIST MEANIE jargon.

    Satirical is doing things like firing every medical worker smart enough not to take an untested mRNA vaccine and then calling up the National Guard to fill your gaps.

    Satirical is being too lazy to manufacture your own proteins for a real vaccine on a grand scale so you come up with injecting an mRNA protein producer instead, but then forget to notify med workers until AFTER the rollout that injecting the mRNA mixture anywhere near a vein could cause it to migrate to places like the brain or heart where producing an immune response to the spike proteins produced by the mRNA kills cells you can’t get back.

    (This would explain why side effects from the vaccine can often be significant, unexpected, varied, delayed, and dire to even healthy people-they depend on where the mRNA protein producers escaped to in the body, and why the ONE HUNDRED PERCENT VAXXED slogan that Biden’s admin pushed hard was so predictably dangerous. Somewhere between 10-25% of the mRNA LNPs are likely to escape into systemic circulation from even a properly performed intramuscular injection. Hope you didn’t vax your kids just because the FDA said it was okay!)

    No word yet on whether even the properly injected mRNA producer stays in the muscle until used up, or has a chance of migrating elsewhere later on. That’s something that actual long-term testing with representative samples might have told you, but that obviously hasn’t been done, and you all don’t seem like the type of people who’ll countermand someone who has a better degree than yours.

    In short, screw the experts, screw the moral crusaders, and screw the liberals, and I mean that in the widest figurative and literal sense possible. Everyone with sense who’s not already openly opposing you is lying to you, and preparing for the days of reckoning.

    Dire Tactics (ca59d9)

  28. Oh look it’s Steppe Nomad stepping all over the thread using different names. I suggest mocking him or ignoring him but mostly mocking him. Here’s my contribution: hey Steppe Nomad you are a joke and nothing more. LOL!

    Patterico (e349ce)

  29. It so depressing to read people who don’t understand biology trying to scare other people on that topic, sock puppet or not—for political advantage. I hate this period in history.

    Ugh.

    Simon Jester (24a6a2)

  30. Is this some guy you banned long ago, Patterico?

    He seems rather bitter and miserable.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  31. instead of engaging with anyone who disagrees with you

    It’s hard to engage with someone who is always seething.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  32. Good joke, Jim!

    Here’s one my mom told me about her two cousins (both now deceased). Once upon a time her two cousins (sisters) were at a bar, and a guy offered the older sister $50 in exchange for sex. She said no. He then turned to the younger sister and propositioned her. She said, “No, because you didn’t ask me first.”

    True story.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  33. Best Nude Playmates & Centerfolds, Beautiful galleries daily updates
    http://nhatrangsexestlady.alypics.com/?melinda
    kink monsters of porn free euro girls porn bisexuals guy porn beautiful pussy close up porn chubby teen porn pics

    zacharyif16 (8d361f)

  34. Zachary needs a permanent vacation.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  35. Send all illegal crimaliens to the homes of idiots who voted for worse than Trump. Including you people that voted for some other pos.

    mg (8cbc69)

  36. mg (8cbc69) — 9/28/2021 @ 2:57 am

    Trump tried to overturn the results of a legitimate election.

    Trump is STILL trying to overturn the results of a legitimate election.

    And you supported him. And you still do.

    I could stand a bit less pearl-clutching about the breakdown of law and order at the border from someone who supports a man who worked hard to secure its breakdown at the center of American government.

    Demosthenes (fdbac3)

  37. Alberta Chief Health Officer: “If individuals choose to not get tested for COVID but are home with an illness, they’re now counted in the list as being part of that outbreak.”

    Science.

    Obudman (18ecb6)

  38. “And you supported him. And you still do.”

    Demo, this is all rationalized. Democrats, liberals, and I guess NeverTrump will cheat, lie, and steal to push their agenda to purposefully ruin America….so the Right needs someone bold and brash enough to fight fire with fire…..or so the excuse-making goes. Liberals are evil….and if they didn’t steal the election, it wasn’t for want of trying (much of this is about escalating because the other side is just about to escalate). Trump is just trying to fight for fair elections. If facts overwhelm them, they just retreat back to friendlier narratives…..like the Steele dossier and pee-sex stories….or unfair FISA meddling…..or collusion. It’s like a skipping record. But at least mg is succinct….and doesn’t engage in bad faith rabbit holing or repetitious windmill tilting. He pipes in at 3am…..then blissfully passes out…..it’s almost like white noise

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  39. President of the United States: The reason we have so many Covid cases is because we test so much.

    Science.

    What does the Alberta (isn’t that where Ted Cruz was born, BTW, before he moved to Texas?) health officer have to do with the price of peyote in Albuquerque?

    nk (1d9030)

  40. “trump was right about everything”

    except how to avoid getting crushed in an election by an old geezer who was barely campaigning/alive

    Dustin (150498)

  41. How come Texas is not doing a forensic audit of the 2018 Senate election? You know … for foreners.

    nk (1d9030)

  42. And the COVID invasion on our southern border.

    Carry on.

    NJRob (1929af)

  43. 40, he is best understood with Michael Savage show bumper music (usually Metallica riffs) before and after each comment.

    urbanleftbehind (c073c9)

  44. The second attempt at satire wasn’t nearly as good as the first, though it did capture the spirit of one of those crazy street people we have all learned to avoid.

    But it went too far at the end with the threats of rape.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  45. “except how to avoid getting crushed in an election by an old geezer who was barely campaigning/alive”

    And we can add this to what Dustin said: Or how to avoid losing two Georgia Senate seats, and control of the Senate.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  46. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58680204

    The spin in this article is unreal. Vast majority of hospitalizations are from the vaccinated.

    What is going on?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  47. “trump was right about everything”

    Comedy gold.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  48. @48, as the percentage of ppl vaccinated goes up this will happen. As the article noted, total hospitalization rate is much lower. You’re confusing math for spin.

    Time123 (213142)

  49. Actual comedy gold:

    Townhall: Biden @PressSec says that the $3.5T Reconciliation Package will cost $0.

    https://twitter.com/townhallcom/status/1442553706671534082?s=21

    Best comment:

    “I bought this coat for $1,200. But I also got my paycheck today, which was $1,200, so the actual cost was $0.”

    Obudman (18ecb6)

  50. Vast majority of hospitalizations are from the vaccinated.

    Which, by itself, tells you nothing. You do not know the medical histories and pre-existing conditions of the individuals whose cases make up that single statistic.

    They’re not spinning anything. You’re just cherry-picking.

    What is going on?

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 9/28/2021 @ 7:49 am

    Since you asked, here is what’s going on:

    According to the article you cite, unvaccinated people in Wales make up just 5% of the over-60’s, and just 16% of the under-60’s. Yet (because of the large number of unknowns) they make up between 33% and 54% of diagnosed COVID-19 cases.

    My conclusion? The vaccines work, but are not perfect. Which, surprise surprise, corresponds with what we already knew.

    Demosthenes (4cc951)

  51. Obudman (18ecb6) — 9/28/2021 @ 8:25 am

    I love it. But, with respect, may I make one small adjustment to that comment?

    “I bought this coat for $1,200. But I had more than $1,200 in available credit on my card, so the actual cost was $0. Still, I hope my request for a credit limit increase goes through, or I’ll be in big trouble next month.”

    Not as punchy, I grant you. But more accurate.

    Demosthenes (4cc951)

  52. BREAKING: California Gov. Gavin Newsom signed Assembly Bill 37 into law today, making universal vote-by-mail PERMANENT throughout the state.

    “EVERY registered CA voter will get their ballot mailed to them before a statewide election.”

    Obudman (18ecb6) — 9/27/2021 @ 6:47 pm

    One of seven other states (Colorado, Hawaii, Nevada, Oregon, Utah, Vermont, and Washington) to do so. But it’s California, the right wing bogeyman, that gets the all caps treatment.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  53. Simplifying voting fraud is the opposite of bogeymen but continue w the DNC talking points.

    Obudman (18ecb6)

  54. Simplifying voting fraud is the opposite of bogeymen but continue w the DNC talking points.

    What has been the evidence of vote fraud in Colorado, Hawaii, Nevada, Oregon, Utah, Vermont, and Washington?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  55. 37- So thats a no to the crimaliens living in your hood?

    mg (8cbc69)

  56. 37- go clutch yourself

    mg (8cbc69)

  57. You want voter fraud in Washington? Go back to when they stole the gubernatorial election.

    All those states (including Utah to some degree) have had a drastic leftward slant since putting in statewide mail in voting. Why is that?

    Are you saying that leftists are too lazy to vote in person, but if a ballot just appears in their mail they can just tick off all the leftists and turn it in?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  58. Pathetic is the worse than Trump voters and the sophisticated jive they try and shove up ones azz. david french kissers are the new woke karen.

    mg (8cbc69)

  59. Demosthenes (4cc951) — 9/28/2021 @ 8:58 am

    Or to put your spin another way, the vaccinated make up between 46 to 67 percent of cases and potentially over 80 percent of all hospitalizations.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  60. the price of peyote in Albuquerque

    There are drugs in ABQ? Who knew!?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  61. potentially over 80 percent of all hospitalizations.

    “Potentially” is one of those words people use when they cannot say “actually.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  62. And when we have 100% Covid-19 vaccination, the vaccinated will make up 100% of hospitalizations. Like they do for those vaccinated for polio, diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus. STOP ALL VACCINES! THEY’RE PUTTING PEOPLE IN THE HOSPITAL!

    nk (1d9030)

  63. Question, for the anti-mRNA folks: What’s wrong with the J&J shot then?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  64. except how to avoid getting crushed in an election by an old geezer who was barely campaigning/alive

    I note that the only time a liberal uses masculine verbiage is when he’s trying to make what was actually accomplished by extremely feminine collective subterfuge, stonewalling, and slander seem ‘cool’, which I might add is a strong invitation for the literal definition to be visited upon them by men (or MTG, woman’s practically the she-Hulk of the Congress) actually capable of demonstrating it.

    “If facts overwhelm them, they just retreat back to friendlier narratives

    Yep, AJ’s a liberal, any issue where the typical knavish liberal legal tricks were publicized and discredited comprehensively in public and precedent-setting fashion in a manner that massively increased radicalization among your enemies and no small number of your “friends”(also known as GETTING CRUSHED) is a ‘narrative’.

    Let’s make it simple: you’ve never cared about facts, only about your reputation and emotions. PR 101, a powerful tool against the uninitiated. But we are far past initiated, and far past respecting ‘experts’, ‘institutions’, or ‘who we are’ as appeals.

    “It so depressing to read people who don’t understand biology trying to scare other people on that topic, sock puppet or not—for political advantage. I hate this period in history.”

    One of us provided an informed biological explanation for the current goings-on, one has failed to provide a comprehensive rebuttal in language others could understand. But common understanding of biology is generally deemed ‘racism’ among liberals, so I’m not at all surprised that the commenters who passed the NeverTrump filter are this ignorant.

    Bat Spike (2b7f63)

  65. 37- So thats a no to the crimaliens living in your hood?

    mg (8cbc69) — 9/28/2021 @ 9:18 am

    Frankly, I think most of them would make better Americans than you.

    Demosthenes (4cc951)

  66. Or to put your spin another way, the vaccinated make up between 46 to 67 percent of cases…

    Yes. And well over 85% of the Welsh population, by the most conservative measure. Again, the vaccines work.

    …and potentially over 80 percent of all hospitalizations.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 9/28/2021 @ 9:26 am

    What Kevin said.

    Demosthenes (4cc951)

  67. …..All those states (including Utah to some degree) have had a drastic leftward slant since putting in statewide mail in voting. Why is that? Are you saying that leftists are too lazy to vote in person, but if a ballot just appears in their mail they can just tick off all the leftists and turn it in?

    I don’t think there is any evidence that the method of voting (mail-in or in-person) drives policy choices. Republicans can equally vote for their candidates using mail-in ballots. In the 2020 general election in California, Republicans picked up four Congressional seats where the vast majority of votes were made by mail.

    Democrats in California win whether voting in person or by mail because there are more Democrats registered (46.5%) than Republicans (24.0%). In fact, Republican registration barely exceeds Decline to State (23.2%). Newson beat the recall not because of voter fraud but because he is still a reasonably popular governor (>50% approval before the recall) and (some believe) Trump and Elder’s accusations the recall was “rigged” before the election depressed Republican turnout.

    I would say Republicans are equally lazy in voting by mail.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  68. And there are a number of studies that show mail-in voting does not disadvantage one political party over another. See here and here for examples.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  69. The real objection to mail-in voting is that it increases turnout.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  70. [WICKER] GENERAL MILLEY, OF THE CONDITIONS THAT WERE REQUIRED OF THE TALIBAN IN THE AGREEMENT, ONLY ONE WAS MET. IS THAT CORRECT?

    03:28:04
    [MILLEY] THAT’S CORRECT. THE CONDITION WAS — THE ONE THAT WAS MET WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE, WHICH WAS DON’T ATTACK US OR THE COALITION FORCES, AND THEY DIDN’T.

    03:28:15
    [WICKER] AND SO PRESIDENT TRUMP MADE A RECOMMENDATION, GAVE AN ORDER THAT WE LEAVE ON 15 JANUARY.

    03:28:24
    [MILLEY] CORRECT.

    03:28:25
    [WICKER] AND THE ADVICE CAME BACK FROM THE MILITARY STRONGLY THAT THAT WAS NOT A GOOD IDEA BASED ON THAT ADVICE THE PRESIDENT RESCINDED THAT ORDER. IS THAT CORRECT?

    03:28:35

    [MILLEY] CORRECT

    [WICKER] AND NONE OF THOSE CONDITIONS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP BASED HIS DECISION ON HAD BEEN MET IN 2021 WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN MADE THE SAME, IN FACT, THE SAME DECISION, IS THAT CORRECT?

    [MILLEY] THOSE CONDITIONS WERE NEVER MET. THAT’S CORRECT.

    [WICKER] THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN.

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?514537-1/joint-chiefs-chair-general-milley-testify-afghanistan-withdrawal&live&vod&start=12517

    Now that Milley absolved Trump and pinned Biden we are one step closer to resolving the Afghan cluster.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  71. You want voter fraud in Washington? Go back to when they stole the gubernatorial election.

    You don’t know what you’re talking about, Rob.
    One, Rossi-Gregoire election was in 2004, seven years before the state started 100% mail-in voting.
    Two, there was no evidence of fraud in the 2004 election, and it was settled in court, with the GOP not delivering proof of fraud.
    Three, I’ve lived in the Seattle area most of my life, and I followed these events closely. You’re thousands of miles away, trafficking in hyperbole and fearmongering.
    Four, I met Sharkansky, the guy who spearheaded the push against King County election officials in the election aftermath, at a blogger meet-up in a Pike Place brewery. He raised good questions about how they conducted their business, but he couldn’t find outright fraud, and he was as close to it as anyone.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  72. More prattle arrives!

    “Democrats in California win whether voting in person or by mail because there are more Democrats registered (46.5%) than Republicans (24.0%). In fact, Republican registration barely exceeds Decline to State (23.2%).”

    And as long as Democrats control the state, I expect “Decline to State” will outpace “Republican” for just about anyone who doesn’t want to join the Democrats but isn’t a complete idiot. What’s the cost-benefit of openly registering for a party that every liberal will actively and violently work against with a strong expectation of legal impunity?

    “The real objection to mail-in voting is that it increases turnout.”

    THE *REAL* OBJECTION TO GIVING UP STRINGENT INDEPENDENT CONTROLS IS THAT IT INCREASES REPRESENTATIONyeah, go be a shameless liberal corporate stooge somewhere else.

    “Frankly, I think most of them would make better Americans than you.”

    HOW DARE YOU PEASANTS DEMAND LIVABLE WAGES AND REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT LIKE YOUR UNGRATEFUL PARENTS, THESE DESPERATE FOREIGNERS DEPENDENT ON ME WILL OBVIOUSLY BE BETTER AMERICANS THAN YOU!

    “there are a number of studies that show mail-in voting does not disadvantage one political party over another”

    Studies from “Stanford”, a known California party school, and “science direct”, a known hangout of atheists and other liberals opposed to any consistent scientific practice. If it’s official, it’s fake, and probably paid for by your official opposition. Pull a usable argument from them at least or GTFO.

    As the late Norm McDonald would say, I think everyone involved in these stories should die, hopefully sooner rather than later once the California rat pen runs out of water.

    Norm McFerguson (90b93b)

  73. Wow troll is out in force today. Wonder what set him off?

    Time123 (213142)

  74. The hair on his palms has reached the itchy stage.

    nk (1d9030)

  75. “Frankly, I think most of them would make better Americans than you.”

    HOW DARE YOU PEASANTS DEMAND LIVABLE WAGES AND REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT LIKE YOUR UNGRATEFUL PARENTS, THESE DESPERATE FOREIGNERS DEPENDENT ON ME WILL OBVIOUSLY BE BETTER AMERICANS THAN YOU!

    Norm McFerguson (90b93b) — 9/28/2021 @ 11:30 am

    That’s…not what I meant to say. I hope I didn’t come across that way. So let me be clearer.

    I don’t believe that illegal immigration should be encouraged or rewarded. And while I have great sympathy for anyone who feels desperate enough to leave their homeland in search of a better life, I think both we and they would be better served (in the long run) by building up their homelands to be stronger and more self-sufficient. We need good allies. Especially in our own backyard.

    No, I only said what I said to mg because I consider him to be beneath contempt. And because I knew it would piss him off. And also, just so there’s no mistake about what I mean, because it’s true.

    And I think the same about you.

    Demosthenes (4cc951)

  76. RIP Alfred (Pee Wee) Ellis (80).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  77. Paul,

    I know exactly what I’m talking about and I know Stefan Sharkansky from his writings as I was reading Sound Politics back then. Nice of you to try and insult me because I’m on the other coast and pretending I am unaware of the blatant corruption coming from King County, as corrupt a cesspool as any in NJ.

    Carry on carrying water.

    And you also proved my point with mail in voting. There’s never been a close election since. How convenient.

    NJRob (b4b6ca)

  78. I know exactly what I’m talking about and I know Stefan Sharkansky from his writings as I was reading Sound Politics back then. Nice of you to try and insult me because I’m on the other coast and pretending I am unaware of the blatant corruption coming from King County, as corrupt a cesspool as any in NJ.

    If you want to take your ignorance as an insult, Rob, then so be it. That’s what happens when you listen to only one perspective and tune all else out. But sure, go ahead and pretend that you know better about a situation in my backyard, when you’re 3,000 miles away and know basically nothing about Seattle.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  79. Thanks Paul. I will.

    I have no faith or trust in anything you post.

    NJRob (253c67)

  80. @79, it’s unfortunate that allowing people to vote more easily makes it hard for your party to win elections.

    Time123 (213142)

  81. I have no faith or trust in anything you post.

    Likewise, and you won’t catch me asserting superior knowledge over you about New Jersey politics.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  82. @71 i don’t it’s worth explaining here, but the real objections are:

    1) universal mail-in voting allows people to vote who don’t think their vote is worth the minimal effort to go to a polling place on election day, so why not believe them?

    2) the lack of voter identification allows every election result to be questioned, whether you think those doubts are legit or not, and if you think that’s great for our republic, or if you think only one party will question results you’re smoking something

    JF (e1156d)

  83. I expected your remarks, Demosthenes. Completely understood from someone that would have the brains to vote worse than Trump.

    mg (8cbc69)

  84. it’s unfortunate that allowing people to vote more easily makes it hard for your party to win elections.

    Do you believe that such ease means that a larger number of informed people can vote?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  85. It’s really too bad the goal is not “better than Trump.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  86. t’s unfortunate that allowing people to vote more easily makes it hard for your party to win elections.

    It’s fortunate then that allowing more uninvolved and/or clueless people to vote makes it easier for the other party to win elections.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  87. When you rob from Peter to give to Paul you can always count in Paul’s support.

    Thanks Time123.

    NJRob (253c67)

  88. 1) universal mail-in voting allows people to vote who don’t think their vote is worth the minimal effort to go to a polling place on election day, so why not believe them?

    This is not a valid motivation. There is not, and should not be, a rule that franchise can only be exercised by those who care “enough”. Also the burden of voting is not remotely evenly distributed. If the burden fell more heavily on people you identified with I think you’d agree.

    2) the lack of voter identification allows every election result to be questioned, whether you think those doubts are legit or not, and if you think that’s great for our republic, or if you think only one party will question results you’re smoking something

    I see no evidence in today’s public discourse that passionate questions about election outcomes are based in fact. This isn’t a very compelling reason.

    Time123 (213142)

  89. @86, Kevin, there’s no doubt in my mind that UMIV increases participation by low info voters. But, one of the reasons we have democracy is because it allows everybody to have their voice heard. Unfortunately this means dumb people who vote based on reasons I think are silly get to vote also.

    Time123 (213142)

  90. ……And you also proved my point with mail in voting. There’s never been a close election since. How convenient.

    As I said, the main objection is that mail-in voting improves turnout.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  91. Has anyone looked at how participation actually changes with UMIV? I don’t think I’ve ever looked at that data.

    Time123 (213142)

  92. Rip, I think it’s because it makes it harder for republicans to win. If it went the other way the GOP would love it and the Dems would hate it.

    Time123 (213142)

  93. @71 i don’t it’s worth explaining here, but the real objections are:

    1) universal mail-in voting allows people to vote who don’t think their vote is worth the minimal effort to go to a polling place on election day, so why not believe them?
    ……..

    I’ve voted by mail nearly my entire life. My polling place early in my voting career was a senior convalescent center, and it had the smell of death in the air. I also dislike standing in line and crowds.

    I’ve never understood the argument that a vote cast after standing in line is morally better than a vote cast by mail, that somehow the effort spending hours in line is admirable. To me, it shows poor organization by the election officers.

    “Minimal effort” is not much of an argument.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  94. I expected your remarks, Demosthenes. Completely understood from someone that would have the brains to vote worse than Trump.

    mg (8cbc69) — 9/28/2021 @ 1:39 pm

    I know you didn’t mean it this way, but that’s still the nicest thing you’ve ever said about me.

    :::sniff:::

    I’m touched.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  95. My state went UMIV and I took advantage of that. I like convenience. I think I’m at least moderately informed.

    Time123 (213142)

  96. @96 lmao

    Time123 (213142)

  97. “That’s…not what I meant to say. I hope I didn’t come across that way. So let me be clearer.”

    When you use the exact same verbiage and talking points as the Treason Lobby, expect to get treated as they do, Mr. Just Born Yesterday And Just Asking Questions.

    “I don’t believe that illegal immigration should be encouraged or rewarded.”

    Yes, you just think they should be given indulgent treatment while those who warn against them (our nation’s natural immune system) need to be deplored in the harshest of terms.

    “And while I have great sympathy for anyone who feels desperate enough to leave their homeland”

    Why do you feel this? There are plenty more non-sympathetic reasons why people would leave their homeland, and those reasons become much more pertinent now that America isn’t a trackless wilderness but a prosperous country, no thanks to people like you. Have you asked any intelligent questions about how 15k Haitians living in Latin America for the past 10 years can suddenly end up on the border after 10 years in Latin America? Have you considered which corporate, political, and criminal interests fund it?

    “in search of a better life, I think both we and they would be better served (in the long run) by building up their homelands to be stronger and more self-sufficient.”

    Your actions do not match your words. By constantly imprecating against border security, individuals who support border security, agents of border security, and Trump, you give aid and comfort to failing states that they’ll always be able to offload their consequences onto the United states rather than having to deal with them at home.

    “We need good allies. Especially in our own backyard.”

    And yet you say and do nothing to force them to be so, indeed you seem to do the opposite at every opportunity. Is this just an excuse? Are you taking money from big business to grind wages down by pushing tired old ‘better life’ and ‘xenophobic nativist’ lines?

    “No, I only said what I said to mg because I consider him to be beneath contempt. And because I knew it would piss him off.”

    Well, you should probably consider shutting up then if you have nothing better to do than serving as an example of how not to behave for the rest of us.

    “And I think the same about you.”

    The hatred of the immature, the atomized, and those obviously working for the enemy is sweet to ears of the righteous. I am invigorated by your bitter cries and your threadbare tales, as Elijah was at the rantings and ravings of the prophets of Baal.

    Eleezy-J (7a4235)

  98. Rip, I think it’s because it makes it harder for republicans to win. If it went the other way the GOP would love it and the Dems would hate it.

    Studies (see post 70) shows no partisan advantage with mail-in voting. The Democrats have the advantage only because Republicans have claimed that mail-in elections are “rigged” or “corrupt” and refuse to participate. When one side encourages mail-in voting and the other doesn’t, it’s called surrender.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  99. Has anyone looked at how participation actually changes with UMIV? I don’t think I’ve ever looked at that data.

    Time123 (213142) — 9/28/2021 @ 1:59 pm

    See here, here, and here. The answer is not much. Most election enthusiasm was the result of engagement in the election itself, not the method of voting.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  100. #99

    Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son….

    Appalled (1a17de)

  101. Of all the posts I wrote for Sound Politics, the one that I am proudest of, in retrospect, was one with a conclusion that made me deeply unhappy.

    In, as I recall, December 2004, I predicted that a hand count would give Christine Gregoire the lead — as it did.

    I concluded that because of what was then called the “J Curve”. If you graphed Democratic votes by education, they were very high among those with little or no education, fell off as you got to high and college graduates, and then rose again for those with advanced degrees.

    You need some education to vote according to the rules, and so I thought that those with very little education were more likely to vote in ways in which the intent was clear to a person, but not to the machines that had made the first count.

    Since most of those people are Democrats I predicted that Gregoire would gain enough votes to put her ahead.

    I wished then, and wish now, that I had been wrong.

    (Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to come to as clean a conclusion about who actually won, though if people are still interested, I can give you my guess. It’s not a “wild ass” guess, but it is a guess.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  102. “high” = high school, of course.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  103. Newark, New Jersey is well known for its corruption.

    Newark has been marred with political corruption throughout the years. Five of the previous[when?] seven mayors of Newark have been indicted on criminal charges, including the three mayors before Cory Booker: Hugh Addonizio, Kenneth Gibson and Sharpe James. As reported by Newsweek: “… every mayor since 1962 (except one, Cory Booker) has been indicted for crimes committed while in office”.[333]

    I don’t know of any Washington state city or county with a comparable record in the same time period. If any of you do, I would appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  104. The hatred of the immature, the atomized, and those obviously working for the enemy is sweet to ears of the righteous. I am invigorated by your bitter cries and your threadbare tales, as Elijah was at the rantings and ravings of the prophets of Baal.

    Eleezy-J (7a4235) — 9/28/2021 @ 2:15 pm

    You have said everything I wanted to say to you.

    Thank you for saving me the trouble, Socko.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  105. Since Rob brought up WA State as some kind of cesspool of fraud, the actual numbers in the 2018 cycle were 142 illegal ballots out of 3.1 million cast, a rate of 0.005% or about 1 in 22,000 votes, which is damn good. IMO, any state would be fine with that low of a level. I haven’t seen the numbers for 2020, but I doubt they’ll be much different.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  106. Paul – As you probably know, but others may not, Washington state has had Republican secretaries of state since the 1964 election. The latest is Kim Wyman, who even managed to survive the two Trump elections in 2016 and 2020.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  107. “You have said everything I wanted to say to you.”

    Biiiiiitch, please, your sorry mendacious conniving ass ain’t anywhere near Team Eloquent or Team Jehovah.

    If you had any such great thoughts to speak you would have expressed them originally in the first place rather than waiting for your betters to express them first and then trying to use them for your own personal gain, like Simon the Sorceror did with the apostle’s blessing(how about you steal that one for later, you pompous sluggard.)

    Eleezy-J (88bff1)

  108. Oh, thanks for that. I needed the laugh.

    Can’t wait for more episodes of Socko’s Modern Life.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  109. BuDuh at 72.

    I am of the opinion that those conditions were conditions that the generals had imposed and not either President. Trump humored them (or trusted them to meet them soon enough), Biden told them to get it done, and they self-fulfilled their own prophecy by screwing it up as best as they could. Now Milley is passing the buck.

    nk (1d9030)

  110. The worse than Trump voters have so much hate they will continue to vote worse than Trump the rest of their pathetic lives.

    mg (8cbc69)

  111. The worse than Trump voters have so much hate they will continue to vote worse than Trump the rest of their pathetic lives.

    Nope. Can’t do that. No point to it. Jeffrey Dahmer’s dead.

    nk (1d9030)

  112. RIP Alfred (Pee Wee) Ellis (80).

    Sad news. Pee Wee Ellis did the fantastic horn charts on Van Morrison’s Days Like This album. As an old, long-retired horn player myself (I last played in high school), I love his work on that record. Here’s a great example, and here’s another, with Pee Wee playing alongside the fantastic (and beautiful) sax player Candy Dulfer.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  113. The worse than Trump voters have so much hate they will continue to vote worse than Trump the rest of their pathetic lives.

    mg (8cbc69) — 9/28/2021 @ 6:49 pm

    By “worse than Trump voters,” one wonders what mg means.

    Does he mean voters who vote for people who (mg thinks) are “worse than Trump” — by which I think he means, anyone other than Trump? If so, then this sentence is wrong. To make it correct, the word “sense” should be substituted for the word “hate”…and some other word should be found instead of the negatively-charged “pathetic.” I would suggest “prosperous” or “fulfilling.” Or even just “wonderful,” if you feel like slumming linguistically.

    Or does he mean “voters who are themselves worse than Trump”? If so, then again, the sentence is wrong. The people who are worse than Trump are going to keep voting for Trump, because they think he’s great. He’s their idol. That’s why they’re worse than him.

    Demosthenes (fdbac3)

  114. mg,

    It is more accurate to refer to Biden as “result of Trump”.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  115. Jeff Bezos doesn’t make enough money, mg?

    nk (1d9030)

  116. It’s okay, nk. As a Trumper, mg’s self-image is tied to being “manly,” much like his orange god-king. He clearly just wants the last word. Because if he’s the last one to speak, he will have “won.”

    Since we both know he’s lost, I say we let him have it. Compassion is a virtue.

    Demosthenes (4cc951)

  117. I don’t have anything against mg. He’s a founding member of this commentariat. And when I tease him about the side he takes on some things, it’s not a grudge against him. It’s a grudge against the side he’s taking. And I know that it doesn’t always come across as teasing, but since I consider the audience the most important part of speech, I figure that’s only partly my fault.

    nk (1d9030)

  118. I have two main objections to all-mail votes.

    First, I think democratic “ceremonies” are important, and waiting in line with other voters and then voting publicly is, for me, an important ceremony. It is a way of showing, publicly, that I support our democracy, and that I am willing to meet with others who do the same.

    Second, mailed ballots can not have the secrecy protections that in-person voting can have. An example from Britain: Some years ago, I saw a small story about the complaints a Labour MP was getting from women in Muslim families. The women were complaining to her that their husbands or fathers were ordering them to sign the ballots — and then filling out the choices for the women.

    Years ago, I saw a small survey by a Portland State professor that found that there were similar pressures here in the US, and not just in Muslim families.

    Vote fraud is not mythical in the United States, though it is a far smaller problem* than it was decades ago, but when it occurs, it almost always is done with mailed ballots. The reason is simple: With mailed ballots the person offering the bribe can see that the person accepting it has kept their side of the bargain. (Back in the 1960s in Chicago, a surprising number of “voters” in machine precincts needed “assistance” with voting, needed someone to go into the booth to make sure they voted right.)

    Of course I don’t oppose all mailed ballots; there are people who, for legitimate reasons, can not get to the polls, and we should find ways to accommodate them. But the majority of us can get to the polls, and I think we should, though I have been unable to persuade my fellow Washingtonians of that.

    (*Vote fraud is most likely to make a difference in the outcome, as far as I can tell, in low-turnout Democratic primaries.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  119. The funny thing about liberals is that they always have to have the last word no matter how hard they’re owned:

    “To make it correct, the word “sense” should be substituted for the word “hate”…and some other word should be found instead of the negatively-charged “pathetic.” I would suggest “prosperous” or “fulfilling.” Or even just “wonderful,” if you feel like slumming linguistically.”

    We could also go even further and substitute “Demosthenes” with “Soviet apparatchik” or “Chocolate Ration Explainer” or “shameless corporate shill” or “Orwellian destroyer of word meanings” or “did not spend enough time upside down with his head in the toilet bowl or stuffed in his locker.”

    When you see how these dorks turn out, how shamelessly they stand against everything good and right in the world, you come to a great realization: the ‘bullies’ in 80s movies were all absolutely correct and completely justified in their actions retroactively. Cobra Kai’s popularity proves this: the weird dorky outsiders usually really are just people who need to be bullied into submission to better, more truthful, and more beautiful people.

    Party Wordsmit (e7e63e)

  120. The funny thing about liberals is that they always have to have the last word no matter how hard they’re owned:

    Stealing from me now, eh? I thought that was only something people did when they had no thoughts of their own. Welcome to the club, Socko. We have cookies.

    We could also go even further and substitute “Demosthenes” with “Soviet apparatchik” or “Chocolate Ration Explainer” or “shameless corporate shill” or “Orwellian destroyer of word meanings” or “did not spend enough time upside down with his head in the toilet bowl or stuffed in his locker.”

    The second one, please. Most of the rest are passé. But I loves me some chocolate.

    Cobra Kai’s popularity proves this: the weird dorky outsiders usually really are just people who need to be bullied into submission to better, more truthful, and more beautiful people.

    Party Wordsmit (e7e63e) — 9/29/2021 @ 8:28 am

    You better hope you’re not right. Because you’re oh-for-three if you are.

    Demosthenes (4cc951)

  121. The really funny thing about Extremely Online liberals and other ‘rationalists’ is that they always have to have the last word no matter how hard they’re owned, and they’ll demonstrate this by adding desperate and unfunny filler replies to every word you say to try to claim victory, or at least tire you out.

    Good thing this forum, unlike Twitter, doesn’t allow gifs or we’d have an entire column of sassyheadshake.gif as a substitute for Demo’s lack of creativity (the only thing that doesn’t get you banned.)

    Amused Masterson (c8e2df)

  122. Oh, Socko! I didn’t realize having the last word was that important to you. Well, go ahead, then. I’ll let you take it.

    Chocolate Ration Explainer is feeling magnanimous today.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  123. nk, you have always been sharp, funny and out of my league. And I enjoy your verbal assassination of my postings. Rickles like.
    Raising a nitro cold brew to you and your humor.

    mg (8cbc69)

  124. And I raise an iced Folgers frappé to you and your graciousness, mg.

    nk (1d9030)

  125. BuDuh (4a7846) — 9/28/2021 @ 10:15 am

    Now that Milley absolved Trump and pinned Biden we are one step closer to resolving the Afghan cluster.

    They are focusing on the wrong lie, because no Congresssperson wants to ask a question a a hearing which he doesn’t know the answer to
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/08/31/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-end-of-the-war-in-afghanistan

    The previous administration’s agreement said that if we stuck to the May 1st deadline that they had signed on to leave by, the Taliban wouldn’t attack any American forces, but if we stayed, all bets were off.

    So we were left with a simple decision: Either follow through on the commitment made by the last administration and leave Afghanistan, or say we weren’t leaving and commit another tens of thousands more troops going back to war.

    That was the choice — the real choice — between leaving or escalating.

    The question is: Where did that come from?

    President Biden made that claim repeatedly.

    Q. Did anyone give him such advice? That the maintenance of 2,500 troops indefinitely was not an option?

    Note: Not that there might be some terrorist-like suicide attacks on American troops, but that he would have to escalate? (and they couldn’t even hope to deter such attacks by threatening military reprisals, so that the Taliban would not find it in their interest to break that ceasefire? (limited to American troops.)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  126. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 9/29/2021 @ 7:55 am

    Second, mailed ballots can not have the secrecy protections that in-person voting can have. An example from Britain: Some years ago, I saw a small story about the complaints a Labour MP was getting from women in Muslim families. The women were complaining to her that their husbands or fathers were ordering them to sign the ballots — and then filling out the choices for the women.

    This is an obvious problem, which is ignored, and not just in one type of family, as you state.

    They might reason to themselves that it cancels out.

    It can be alleviated (n the cases of people who care about their vote) by allowing a person to vote in person even if they sent in a mail ballot, but that’s being done away with too, where it exists, because they want to be able to announce the results early. They could easily allow early voting at least to supersede them without delaying the announcement of the results.

    But nobody cares enough to think about that, or the case of late breaking news or new arguments – and it’s possible many of the politicians want to be able to “bank” votes.

    (*Vote fraud is most likely to make a difference in the outcome, as far as I can tell, in low-turnout Democratic primaries.)

    For local offices, where there are not too many votes involved, and where there is no well experienced opposition.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  127. Hey, Socko! I very generously offered you the last word, but now no less than three people have stepped in after you in dastardly attempts to take it. (Plus me, of course. But you have well and thoroughly established by this point that I am a liberal progressive socialist commie pinko, so I can’t see how my soy-snorting self is much of a threat to you claiming your rightful prize.)

    Anyway, I think everyone has cleared out of here and moved onto other threads. So go ahead. The empty floor is yours.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

Leave a Reply

Comment moderation is enabled. Your comment may take some time to appear.


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.5195 secs.