Patterico's Pontifications

9/9/2021

President Biden to Mandate COVID-19 Vaccine for Federal Workers

Filed under: General — Dana @ 12:11 pm



[guest post by Dana]

CNN reports:

Federal workers will have 75 days to get fully vaccinated or will face losing their jobs, the White House said Thursday, ahead of President Biden’s speech officially announcing the change in policy.

“There will be limited exceptions for legally recognized reasons such as disability or religious objections,” White House press secretary Jen Psaki told reporters during a briefing.

She said the interagency task force would “provide a ramp up period, and we expect federal employees will have about 75 days to be fully vaccinated. That gives people more than enough time in our view to start and complete their vaccination series.”

“If a federal worker fails to comply,” she continued, “they will go through the Standard HR process, which includes counseling and face disciplinary action, face progressive disciplinary action. Each agency is going to work with employees to make sure they understand the benefits of vaccination and how the vaccines are free, easy and widely accessible, but it will start to be applied once the executive order is signed.”

Oh, and congratulations, America – we are now just behind Russia in the percentage of Americans skeptical of the COVID-19 vaccine:

A survey conducted between August 24th and 30th by Morning Consult, an American pollster, found that 28% of Americans say they do not plan to get vaccinated or are unsure whether they will do so, more than double the average for the 15 countries surveyed. Only Russians are less enthusiastic.

Untitled

A former Marine I know posted an image questioning whether people who feel badly about Americans and Afghan translators left behind in Afghanistan would feel an equal level of frustration and sympathy if members of the U.S. military were punished, court-martialed, or dishonorably discharged if they refused to be vaccinated against COVID-19. I don’t see it as a credible analogy for what I think are pretty obvious reasons. One has to wonder if these same members of the military (or former members) similarly protested the required double-digit number of vaccines they were given in preparation for deployments? This all goes to show the immense harm the politicization of the COVID-19 vaccine has had.

And so it goes…

–Dana

230 Responses to “President Biden to Mandate COVID-19 Vaccine for Federal Workers”

  1. Get vaccinated!

    Dana (174549)

  2. That’s a fascinating graph from The Economist.
    The Chinese couldn’t have executed a better disinformation campaign than our own homegrown anti-vaxxers.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  3. The forced vaccinations in Israel. One mother is not amused.

    felipe (484255)

  4. being unvaccinated is an offense that merits losing your job

    but it’s not an offense that merits denying you illegal entry across the border

    i’m sure this makes sense to every biden voter

    JF (e1156d)

  5. This is reasonable. I wish it had come with some explanations for how effective the vaccine is, and how low the rate of complications has been, but I think this is a reasonable step for government employees.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  6. Good study on breakthrough cases from the UK that shows the effectiveness of the vaccine.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccine-rate-symptoms-study/

    ….The data, gathered from December 8, 2020, through July 4, 2021, show that of more than 1.2 million adults who received a first dose, fewer than 0.5% reported contracting breakthrough infections two weeks or more after getting the jab. Among those who got both shots, fewer than 0.2% experienced a breakthrough infection a week or more after getting their second shot.
    ….
    The study found that people who contracted the coronavirus despite being fully vaccinated were almost twice as likely to have no symptoms at all, compared to the wider population.

    Crucially, the odds of a fully-vaccinated person who does catch COIVD-19 ending up hospitalized with severe symptoms were reduced by more than two-thirds compared to an unvaccinated coronavirus patient. The survey also found that the risk of breakthrough patients suffering from long-COVID, with symptoms lasting more than a month, were cut in half by full vaccination.

    It’s the latest dataset to offer convincing evidence that the vaccines work as intended.

    Link to the actual study

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00460-6/fulltext

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  7. “Keep in mind when you read “hospitalized with Covid” stats: everyone gets tested on admission to hospital. I recently treated a physically health young man with a positive Covid screening test but zero Covid symptoms. He was hospitalized for suicidality and self-harm.

    But he was considered a “Covid hospitalization” for the purposes of these metrics. It’s a way of inflating statistics: test everyone hospitalized, and anyone with a positive Covid test is “hospitalized with Covid” even if not “hospitalized for Covid”. Same for death stats.

    Most of the children “hospitalized with Covid” this year were “hospitalized for RSV.” Ask any pediatric ICU nurse.

    This is not to deny that the Covid pandemic has been serious, or to minimize Covid numbers. It’s simply to state that we have no need for inflated statistics. And bare statistics without comparison benchmarks (e.g., hospitalizations/deaths from other causes) are meaningless.

    Just tell the truth, people. The public can recognize propaganda. Truth is the only way forward.“ – Aaron Kheriaty MD

    https://twitter.com/akheriaty/status/1435671078261510145?s=20

    Obudman (6fea74)

  8. A chump who leaves $85 billion worth of munitions and 10% of his citizens behind has no credibility on anything.

    He’s a bum.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  9. We should be more like China. Embrace the central planning. After all, they’re doing a wonderful job keeping COVID in check.

    frosty (f27e97)

  10. The Chinese and Russians couldn’t have executed a better disinformation campaign than our own homegrown anti-vaxxers.

    FIFY

    Rip Murdock (0aa613)

  11. this isn’t just about federal workers

    from the washington times:

    “Mr. Biden will tread into the private sector by ordering the Labor Department to issue rules requiring companies with 100 workers or more to impose vaccine mandates or conduct weekly testing.”

    welcome to slippery slope

    and of course anyone against this is anti-vax and pro-horse deworming paste

    JF (e1156d)

  12. Obudman, Taken in a vacuum that critique of bad data practices is legit and compelling. But when you do the steps he suggests about using benchmarking and context to accurately present the impact of the issue there’s no change in the conclusion that covid is a significant problem.

    The CDC has a pretty good site that shows deaths from all causes going back 5 years. Take a look if you’re interested in useful data, important note that this is a lagging indicator and the last 8 weeks are immature data and should be expected to grow as more information comes in.

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  13. Joe gonna let ‘em do or undo? I don’t know and neither does he.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  14. Memo to Joe:

    Mr. $2000 is $1400;
    Mr. 100% is 90%;
    Mr. Go to jail with Mandela;
    Mr. lying 18 Wheeler driver;
    Mr. Boosters for life;
    Mr. liar who didn’t go to the Tree of Life in Squirrel Hill;
    Mr. murderer of 13 Americans in Kabul;
    Mr. ‘I promise you I’ll have your back” so watch your wallet…

    “What more is there to wait for?… ” says the Cadaver In Chief?

    Howzabout your funeral— and the magnificent Irish Wake afterwards; you’ll be the guest of honor.

    Trust me, I know,”- sez President Plagiarist. Like you knew Kabul wouldn’t fall like Saigon.

    “Show some respect,” says the Watch Looker. Like you did to 13 American dead coming back to Dover.

    Senator: Beau to Hell.

    You can’t bury Afghanistan under a pile of Covid poop.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  15. This tired old man that they appointed king.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  16. maybe some healthy skepticism for the bar graph

    it shows brazil respondents at ~80% vaccinated, in a country that is at 32%
    mexico respondents shown as ~70% vaccinated, when it is at 29%

    which means it’s not a representative sample

    not going to check every data point

    it’s a poll by morning consult, which surprise is a left wing outfit

    probably it’s more like the sort of politicization of the vaccine we’re supposed to be against

    JF (e1156d)

  17. “Prelude / Angry Joe Man”

    There’s a place in the world for the angry old man
    With his working class ties and his radical plans
    He refuses to bend he refuses to crawl
    And he’s always at home with his back to the wall
    And he’s proud of his scars and the battles he’s lost
    And struggles and bleeds as he hangs on his cross
    And likes to be known as the angry old man

    Give a moment or two to the angry old man
    With his foot in his mouth and his list in his hand
    He’s been stabbed in the back he’s been misunderstood
    It’s a comfort to know his intentions are good
    And he sits in his bunker with a lock on the door
    With his maps and his medals he stole from before
    And he likes to be known as the angry old man

    I believe I’ve passed the age of consciousness and righteous rage
    I found that just surviving was a noble fight
    I once believed in causes too
    I had my pointless point of view
    And life went on no matter who was wrong or right

    And there’s always a place for the angry old man
    With his fist up his ass and his head in the sand
    And he’s never been able to learn from mistakes
    So he can’t understand why his heart always breaks
    And his honor is pure and his courage is well
    And he’s fair and he’s true and he’s boring as hell
    And he’ll go to the grave as an angry old man

    Yes there’s always a place for the angry old man
    With his working class ties and his radical plans
    He refuses to bend he refuses to crawl
    And he’s always at home with his back to the wall
    And he’s proud of his scars and the battles he’s lost
    And struggles and bleeds as he hangs on his Cath-o-lic cross
    And likes to be known as the angry old man

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  18. This senile pos president is almost as dense as the hockey pucks that voted for him. These useless sheep are losers. gtfoh.

    mg (8cbc69)

  19. Luna-ticks is a disease taking over the sophisticated class. stfoml.

    mg (8cbc69)

  20. Even if the vaccination was 100% safe and effective, I still wouldn’t take it simply for the high-handed way they’re rolling it out. We already had forced consumption of a corporate product with Obamacare, and look how that turned out.

    Pfizer shaman (863847)

  21. The press needs a Sam Donaldson to start chewing on this old mick’s ass… hourly.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  22. Christ Almighty, Project Covid has more boosters than Project Mercury had in 1962.

    Worst. American. President. Ever.

    …and Jimma smiled.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  23. President putz and his lackeys were never going to take the serum because….Trump.
    Now its so fricking good because….cellar dweller says so….
    To be hip Ill vote worse than Trump in 2024.

    mg (8cbc69)

  24. The coward in chief is doing this for the children.
    The chi com kids and the little rooskies don’t forget the North Korean youngsters as well last but not least the little tally banders.

    mg (8cbc69)

  25. I had predicted that we were not going to indulge the brats anymore past Labor Day.

    nk (1d9030)

  26. FLASHBACK: Biden admin on vaccine mandates

    Biden: “I don’t think it should be mandatory”

    Psaki: “That’s not the role of the federal government.”

    https://twitter.com/dailycaller/status/1436068995136999425?s=21

    Onudman (6fea74)

  27. A former Marine I know posted an image questioning whether people who feel badly about Americans and Afghan translators left behind in Afghanistan would feel an equal level of frustration and sympathy if members of the U.S. military were punished, court-martialed, or dishonorably discharged if they refused to be vaccinated against COVID-19. I don’t see it as a credible analogy for what I think are pretty obvious reasons. One has to wonder if these same members of the military (or former members) similarly protested the required double-digit number of vaccines they were given in preparation for deployments? This all goes to show the immense harm the politicization of the COVID-19 vaccine has had.

    But that regiment of inoculations weren’t rushed out and/or cooked up goop w/a short fuse efficacy. It’s SOP. How many Americans a year ago were made aware of the likely necessity for booster after booster after booster for who knows how long w/this mess? Few.

    The stink of profiteering by Big Pharma is all over this now and that’s wholly on Biden as it keeps rolling out… and worse, the CiC is purposely creating a political divide by trying to transfer his failure to ‘stop the virus cold’ to those Americans suspicious and skeptical of the rushed out vaccines– especially touted by a president who has lost all credibility on everything.

    If the old twit told you it was raining– and it really was raining– you’d be a fool to believe him without checking outside yourself. And givewn his history, you’d have to be a complete ass to believe anything he ever says.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  28. JF, good catch. I looked up the survey methodology. It’s in the link but several clicks deep. I don’t think the methods below will give a good understanding for less developed countries.

    Methodology

    In a given week, Morning Consult conducts around 30,000 interviews in the United States and between 2,000 to 5,00 surveys in each other country on the vaccine rollout, among nationally representative samples of adults. (In India, the sample is representative of the literate population). All interviews are conducted online.

    Surveys are weighted in each country by age, gender, region, and, in certain countries, education breakdowns based on official government sources. In the United States, surveys are also weighted by race and ethnicity.

    Respondents complete these surveys in languages appropriate for their countries. Professional translation firms in each country conduct the translation and localization.

    Time123 (224669)

  29. Jacob Bogage – Washington Post

    U.S. Postal Service workers were not included in Biden’s executive order requiring all federal employees to get vaccinated against the coronavirus, according to a White House official speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss not-yet-public portions of the president’s plan.

    U.S. Postal Service workers would be strongly encouraged to comply with the mandate, the official said.
    The move exempts a massive chunk of the federal workforce — 644,000 employees and growing by the day as the agency ramps up seasonal hiring — that interacts daily with an equally large swath of the public.
    One of the Postal Service’s powerful unions, the American Postal Workers Union, in July criticized the administration’s efforts to require federal workers to be vaccinated and demanded that postal leadership collectively bargain on the issue..”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/09/covid-delta-variant-live-updates/#link-ZHPPBSAVCBER7HQQD4LCHVV4VY

    Obudman (6fea74)

  30. Mandating vaccines for federal workers is one thing, but Biden mandating vaccines for private companies with more than 100 employees strikes me as an unconstitutional power grab. Conservatives should be howling about this. This is not good.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  31. Building Bungling Bureaucracy Better

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  32. Paul, I agree. Feels like a repeat of the eviction moratorium.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  33. i’m sure this makes sense to every biden voter

    Why blame Biden voters? Put the blame where it belongs. Texas. Yes, the State. For the OSHA mandate, anyway. Their new abortion law gave Biden the idea to use employers to force what the government could not.

    nk (1d9030)

  34. Mandating vaccines for federal workers is one thing, but Biden mandating vaccines for private companies with more than 100 employees strikes me as an unconstitutional power grab. Conservatives should be howling about this. This is not good.

    Nobody ever said he was smart- except him.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  35. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 9/9/2021 @ 4:13 pm

    Give a mouse a cookie and he’s going ask for a glass of milk.

    True Conservatives are shocked and didn’t see this coming at all.

    frosty (927573)

  36. another bang from the shooting gallery known as chicago

    mg (8cbc69)

  37. going postal could become a trend

    mg (8cbc69)

  38. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/vintage-biden-clip-resurfaces-law-school

    ‘A 1987 clip of Joe Biden has resurfaced, showing him exaggerating his academic record, boasting that he graduated “in the top half of my class” – before he later admitted that he graduated 76th in a class of 85.

    During an interview with the NY Times, he also didn’t dispute the reports that he actually went on the law school “on half scholarship based on financial need” rather than full scholarship as he claimed. “My recollection is – and I’d have to confirm this – but I don’t recall paying any money to go to law school,” he said. Biden’s 1988 run for Democratic nomination for president ended shortly after the controversy, which also included accusations of plagiarism in his academic work and campaign speeches.’

    Suckers.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  39. It’s too bad the the small government types were run out of the GOP because “muh principles” got in the way of The culture war. I think he went too far with the mandate on private employers, but I don’t see how this differs in principle from the eviction moratorium.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  40. Well, it won’t affect state and local employees (10th Amendment), so we might as well leave them out of the equation altogether.

    It could raise the collective IQs of federal employees, the military, and private workplaces, but that’s not necessarily a good thing either. Too high an IQ is a handicap, not an asset, for most of those jobs.

    nk (1d9030)

  41. “I trust his [Biden’s] judgment.” – Nancy Pelosi, 8-25-21

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  42. Even if the vaccination was 100% safe and effective, I still wouldn’t take it simply for the high-handed way they’re rolling it out.

    So you wouldn’t take a vaccine that you knew was 100% safe and effective because they’re people you don’t agree with, line up with politically, and/or have rolled it out in a way that you don’t like? Wow. You would rather put yourself at risk, and thus others because the wrong people have rolled it out in a way that you don’t like? It’s unfortunate that enough of a percentage of many Americans think along those same lines and are refusing to get vaccinated, and thus are dragging out the pandemic. Just incredible.

    Dana (174549)

  43. Somewhat off-topic, here is piece from April 2020, talking about CES (Jan 7-10) 2000 being the tipping point. 170,000 people from around the world, including more than 100 Chinese from Wuhan (and many more from other places in China; 25% of exhibitors where Chinese firms). Then the spread back to Silicon Valley, Seattle, NYC, Korea and Japan.

    https://www.apmreports.org/story/2020/04/23/covid-infected-attendee-ces-tech-conference

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. The Chinese numbers are suspect. First, the government lies. Second, who is going to say they are unwilling to trust Glorious Leader? It should also be pointed out that the Chinese vaccines are crap.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  45. What would really work, I think, would be a federal law that would allow anyone to sue any unvaccinated person, in either federal or state court*, for $10,000. No religious or health exceptions. What do you guys think?

    *Yes, you can bring a federal claim in state court.

    nk (1d9030)

  46. @43. See the Swine Flu snafus, 1975/76.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  47. The forced vaccinations in Israel. One mother is not amused.

    Now, wait. They conscript nearly everyone into the armed forces, where they are subjected to all kinds of danger. But vaccination is beyond the pale?

    Chronic Perspective Loss.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  48. The White House wants $24 billion in additional funding to help recovery efforts for the California wildfires and several hurricanes, including Hurricane Ida. Biden administration officials are also asking for $6.4 billion to help with resettling vulnerable Afghans in the United States. – npr

    There are 85 billion reasons to deny the $6.4 billion.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  49. This senile pos president is almost as dense as the hockey pucks that voted for him. These useless sheep are losers. gtfoh.

    You are one of the [expletive deleted]-ing [derogatory word deleted] who gave us Trump and destroyed the center-right. Now all we have is sane vs insane and you guys keep doubling down on crazy. How’s it going, mg? More cowbell?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  50. The New York Times stated that he is ordering OSHA to put emergency regulations in place covering all companies with 100 or more employees. However, OSHA regulations cover all businesses; why did Mr Biden limit his order to companies which have 100 or more employees? Are workers at companies with 92 or 35 employees somehow immune from the virus?

    This is a huge governmental overreach, and it will be fought in court.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  51. What would really work, I think, would be a federal law that would allow anyone to sue any unvaccinated person, in either federal or state court*, for $10,000. No religious or health exceptions. What do you guys think?

    Are John Doe suits allowed? Also, if I lose they get nothing, right? Can I bring the same claim in both state and federal courts? What if they are unvaccinated AND performing abortions?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  52. @51: I imagine that the Administrative Procedures Act is trending on Google in DC.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  53. The much nicer Dana wrote:

    Even if the vaccination was 100% safe and effective, I still wouldn’t take it simply for the high-handed way they’re rolling it out.

    So you wouldn’t take a vaccine that you knew was 100% safe and effective because they’re people you don’t agree with, line up with politically, and/or have rolled it out in a way that you don’t like? Wow. You would rather put yourself at risk, and thus others because the wrong people have rolled it out in a way that you don’t like? It’s unfortunate that enough of a percentage of many Americans think along those same lines and are refusing to get vaccinated, and thus are dragging out the pandemic. Just incredible.

    It seems to me that he is concerned more about liberty and individual rights. I can understand that you don’t agree with his decision, but, to me, what’s “incredible” is that you don’t seem to respect that other people might have different ideas and concerns than you.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  54. Although, to be fair, mg makes sense more often that DCSCA.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  55. nk wrote:

    What would really work, I think, would be a federal law that would allow anyone to sue any unvaccinated person, in either federal or state court*, for $10,000. No religious or health exceptions. What do you guys think?

    Don’t you have to prove an actual harm to yourself to win a tort lawsuit?

    If Joe Schmuckatella walks past you on the streets of the Windy City, wouldn’t it be up to you to prove that he isn’t vaccinated, and that his unvaccinated status, if you could prove it, did you, specifically, harm?

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  56. @50. No. Modern ideological conservatism gave us Trump. The menu had 16 weenies or a T-bone steak, albeit a little fatty.

    Voters passed on the pork and went w/t beef.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  57. This is a huge governmental overreach, and it will be fought in court.

    It’s a shiny object dropped on a Thursday into the news cycle designed to flush through the weekend shows on top of 9/11 garbage and distract the 30-something news poodles and AC-360 wannabes from the Afghanistan disaster.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  58. Don’t you have to prove an actual harm to yourself to win a tort lawsuit?

    It’s not a tort lawsuit. It’s a statutory claim, in qui tam, granted by law. Federal law already has them for whistleblowers and environmentalists. And unlike the Texas law, there is no vaccination Roe v. Wade to overcome.

    nk (1d9030)

  59. Kevin you’re on fire here. The more cowbell line made me laugh.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  60. nk responded:

    Don’t you have to prove an actual harm to yourself to win a tort lawsuit?

    It’s not a tort lawsuit. It’s a statutory claim, in qui tam, granted by law. Federal law already has them for whistleblowers and environmentalists. And unlike the Texas law, there is no vaccination Roe v. Wade to overcome.

    Except, of course, there is no law or regulation which states that you must be vaccinated.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  61. If Joe Schmuckatella walks past you on the streets of the Windy City,

    Well, I wouldn’t sue a perfect stranger, only somebody I was sure had $10,000 I could collect. And he could be in Kankakee. The only element required is that he is not vaccinated.

    wouldn’t it be up to you to prove that he isn’t vaccinated,

    That’s what discovery is for but I would hope that the government would have a database I could easily access. Also, in civil cases, you can compel the opposing party as an adverse witness, and if he does not show up or refuses to testify under oath you win automatically.

    and that his unvaccinated status, if you could prove it, did you, specifically, harm?

    Nope. See my previous comment.

    nk (1d9030)

  62. Except, of course, there is no law or regulation which states that you must be vaccinated.

    There could be. All Congress needs to do is pass it and Biden sign it. The Democrats have been itching to abolish the legislative filibuster anyway so they can pass the Green Nude Eel and pack the Supreme Court.

    nk (1d9030)

  63. Fascism is always accused of being on the right, but always lands on the left.

    NJRob (1697bc)

  64. Are John Doe suits allowed?

    Wouldn’t make sense, since you’re after money.

    Also, if I lose they get nothing, right?

    You betcha!

    Can I bring the same claim in both state and federal courts?

    No. You are entitled to only one forum, but you may choose either one, and only one recovery.

    What if they are unvaccinated AND performing abortions?

    You can join federal and state claims as a general rule, but I don’t see the commonality of evidence. It would really be two cases. And you’d have to sue in Texas for abortions performed on Texan women.

    nk (1d9030)

  65. FWIW, FiveThirtyEight gives Morning Consult a “B” grade for, I assume, their American polls.

    Those unhappy with that grade can download the data, and calculate their own grades.

    (Grade inflation has hit there, too, so a “B” may be average, or even a bit below average.)

    I should add that, although I disagree with their writers on many subjects, I haven’t seen them misuse poll data in all the years that I have been watching them. You’ll not, for example, that they — correctly — tag many pollsters for Democratic biases, just as they tag some for Republican biases.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  66. “So you wouldn’t take a vaccine that you knew was 100% safe and effective because they’re people you don’t agree with, line up with politically, and/or have rolled it out in a way that you don’t like?”

    YES. Nobody who is allowed to do the right things for the wrong reasons without protest is going to stop at the right things. And we are most assuredly not in the best case scenario where there’s no corporate backing behind constant vaccine updates.

    “Wow. You would rather put yourself at risk, and thus others because the wrong people have rolled it out in a way that you don’t like?”

    My body, my choice, my risk profile. If you feel that you’re in a risk-factor group(old, fat, frail,) get vaccinated. You won’t have to worry about the unvaccinated then. Humanity has somehow soldiered on without vaccines for 99% of its time on this planet. And 99% of humanity will get a better immunity than any vaccine could give them through good old fashioned socializing.

    “It’s unfortunate that enough of a percentage of many Americans think along those same lines and are refusing to get vaccinated, and thus are dragging out the pandemic. Just incredible.”

    The only people “dragging this pandemic out” by inventing a new excuse for a new corporate invasion of privacy every day to prevent a return to normal human socialization are hateful, power-tripping people like you who thinks yelling GET VACCINATED! self-righteously is proper reply, as though your only form of communication was scolding kids and you don’t know how to talk to other adults as anything other than “brats.”

    Devaccinator (2b7f63)

  67. Blame me all you want, kevin m. Just make darn sure you continue to vote for worse than Trump.

    mg (8cbc69)

  68. Speaking of mandates:

    L.A. school officials order sweeping student vaccine mandate, a first by a major district
    All children 12 and older in Los Angeles public schools must be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 by January to enter campus under an order approved Thursday by the Board of Education, the first such mandate among the nation’s largest school systems.
    …….
    ……..
    …….(A)bout 225,000 students in grades 6 through 12 would fall under the policy. District officials estimate that roughly 80,000 students are not yet vaccinated.

    Students who are not vaccinated by the deadline will not be allowed on campus…….The alternative for them would be to enter remote learning through independent study, a program that was overwhelmed at the start of the school year when more than 10,000 students signed up.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (0aa613)

  69. I was mass vaccinated in school for something in 6th grade. I remember looking forward to the needle gun I had seen in pictures but, no, I got the same old boring syringe.

    nk (1d9030)

  70. It’s funny how the Republican party is consistently portrayed by the media as nothing more than a big simp for global megacorps. But of the administrations that have been in charge in this century, only the Democrats have mandated that people have to actually buy a product from a private company, or suffer legal/financial penalties, in both instances from giant corporations in the healthcare field.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  71. As I recall it was the Trump Administration that gave $18B to “Big Pharma” to develop vaccines.

    Rip Murdock (0aa613)

  72. L.A. school officials order sweeping student vaccine mandate, a first by a major district
    All children 12 and older in Los Angeles public schools must be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 by January to enter campus under an order approved Thursday by the Board of Education, the first such mandate among the nation’s largest school systems.

    This should be an interesting case study in whether these mandates will be followed outside the habitual rules-following white population that is mostly the target for these rules. LAUSD is over 70% Hispanic, and 10% Black. Parents will either start pulling their kids out, force the school boards to buck the mandates, or tell them, “welp, no worries, we can still get work with or without a diploma, while these gueros’ homes start falling down around them and they have a heart attack trying to mow their own lawns for once.”

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  73. As I recall it was the Trump Administration that gave $18B to “Big Pharma” to develop vaccines.

    Rip Murdock (0aa613) — 9/9/2021 @ 6:41 pm

    As I recall, he never mandated that people get it once they were done.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  74. Source for post 72.

    Rip Murdock (0aa613)

  75. Source for post 72.

    Rip Murdock (0aa613) — 9/9/2021 @ 6:46 pm

    As if posting a link to your deflection means anything.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  76. Well, if only history existed.

    Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court’s decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.

    U.S. Supreme Court
    Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)
    Jacobson v. Massachusetts

    No. 70

    Argued December 6, 1904

    Decided February 20, 1905

    197 U.S. 11

    Syllabus

    The United States does not derive any of its substantive powers from the Preamble of the Constitution. It cannot exert any power to secure the declared objects of the Constitution unless, apart from the Preamble, such power be found in, or can properly be implied from, some express delegation in the instrument.

    While the spirit of the Constitution is to be respected not less than its letter, the spirit is to be collected chiefly from its words.

    While the exclusion of evidence in the state court in a case involving the constitutionality of a state statute may not strictly present a Federal question, this court may consider the rejection of such evidence upon the ground of incompetency or immateriality under the statute as showing its scope and meaning in the opinion of the state court.

    The police power of a State embraces such reasonable regulations relating to matters completely within its territory, and not affecting the people of other States, established directly by legislative enactment, as will protect the public health and safety.

    While a local regulation, even if based on the acknowledged police power of a State, must always yield in case of conflict with the exercise by the General Government of any power it possesses under the Constitution, the mode or manner of exercising its police power is wholly within the discretion of the State so long as the Constitution of the United States is not contravened, or any right granted or secured thereby is not infringed, or not exercised in such an arbitrary and oppressive manner as to justify the interference of the courts to prevent wrong and oppression.

    The liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times, and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint, nor is it an element in such liberty that one person, or a minority of persons residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government, should have power to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the State.

    It is within the police power of a State to enact a compulsory vaccination law, and it is for the legislature, and not for the courts, to determine

    Page 197 U. S. 12

    in the first instance whether vaccination is or is not the best mode for the prevention of smallpox and the protection of the public health.

    There being obvious reasons for such exception, the fact that children, under certain circumstances, are excepted from the operation of the law does not deny the equal protection of the laws to adults if the statute is applicable equally to all adults in like condition.

    The highest court of Massachusetts not having held that the compulsory vaccination law of that State establishes the absolute rule that an adult must be vaccinated even if he is not a fit subject at the time or that vaccination would seriously injure his health or cause his death, this court holds that, as to an adult residing in the community, and a fit subject of vaccination, the statute is not invalid as in derogation of any of the rights of such person under the Fourteenth Amendment.

    This case involves the validity, under the Constitution of the United States, of certain provisions in the statutes of Massachusetts relating to vaccination.

    The Revised Laws of that Commonwealth, c. 75, § 137, provide that

    “the board of health of a city or town if, in its opinion, it is necessary for the public health or safety shall require and enforce the vaccination and revaccination of all the inhabitants thereof and shall provide them with the means of free vaccination. Whoever, being over twenty-one years of age and not under guardianship, refuses or neglects to comply with such requirement shall forfeit five dollars.”

    An exception is made in favor of “children who present a certificate, signed by a registered physician that they are unfit subjects for vaccination.” § 139.

    Proceeding under the above statutes, the Board of Health of the city of Cambridge, Massachusetts, on the twenty-seventh day of February, 1902, adopted the following regulation:

    “Whereas, smallpox has been prevalent to some extent in the city of Cambridge and still continues to increase; and whereas it is necessary for the speedy extermination of the disease that all persons not protected by vaccination should be vaccinated, and whereas, in the opinion of the board, the public health and safety require the vaccination or revaccination of all the inhabitants of Cambridge; be it ordered, that

    Page 197 U. S. 13

    all the inhabitants of the city who have not been successfully vaccinated since March 1, 1897, be vaccinated or revaccinated.”

    Subsequently, the Board adopted an additional regulation empowering a named physician to enforce the vaccination of persons as directed by the Board at its special meeting of February 27.

    The above regulations being in force, the plaintiff in error, Jacobson, was proceeded against by a criminal complaint in one of the inferior courts of Massachusetts. The complaint charged that, on the seventeenth day of July, 1902, the Board of Health of Cambridge, being of the opinion that it was necessary for the public health and safety, required the vaccination and revaccination of all the inhabitants thereof who had not been successfully vaccinated since the first day of March, 1897, and provided them with the means of free vaccination, and that the defendant, being over twenty-one years of age and not under guardianship, refused and neglected to comply with such requirement.

    The defendant, having been arraigned, pleaded not guilty. The government put in evidence the above regulations adopted by the Board of Health, and made proof tending to show that its chairman informed the defendant that, by refusing to be vaccinated, he would incur the penalty provided by the statute, and would be prosecuted therefor; that he offered to vaccinate the defendant without expense to him, and that the offer was declined, and defendant refused to be vaccinated.

    The prosecution having introduced no other evidence, the defendant made numerous offers of proof. But the trial court ruled that each and all of the facts offered to be proved by the defendant were immaterial, and excluded all proof of them.

    The defendant, standing upon his offers of proof and introducing no evidence, asked numerous instructions to the jury, among which were the following:

    That section 137 of chapter 75 of the Revised Laws of Massachusetts was in derogation of the rights secured to the defendant by the Preamble to the Constitution of the United

    Page 197 U. S. 14

    States, and tended to subvert and defeat the purposes of the Constitution as declared in its Preamble;

    That the section referred to was in derogation of the rights secured to the defendant by the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, and especially of the clauses of that amendment providing that no State shall make or enforce any law abridging the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States, nor deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law, nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws; and

    That said section was opposed to the spirit of the Constitution.

    Each of the defendant’s prayers for instructions was rejected, and he duly excepted. The defendant requested the court, but the court refused, to instruct the jury to return a verdict of not guilty. And the court instructed the jury, in substance, that, if they believed the evidence introduced by the Commonwealth and were satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was guilty of the offense charged in the complaint, they would be warranted in finding a verdict of guilty. A verdict of guilty was thereupon returned.

    The case was then continued for the opinion of the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts. That court overruled all the defendant’s exceptions, sustained the action of the trial court, and thereafter, pursuant to the verdict of the jury, he was sentenced by the court to pay a fine of five dollars. And the court ordered that he stand committed until the fine was paid.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  77. Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 9/9/2021 @ 6:34 pm

    Technically they are forcing the people who pay taxes to give them money. Then they are giving that money to big pharma. Then forcing people to consume the thing they bought with the money they took.

    frosty (419743)

  78. Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 9/9/2021 @ 6:52 pm

    Except this isn’t the states, its the federal government.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  79. I was mass vaccinated in school for something in 6th grade.

    Likely Polio. A vaccine well tested.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  80. As I recall it was the Trump Administration that gave $18B to “Big Pharma” to develop vaccines.

    Boosters and white walls extra.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  81. @73, don’t they require a bunch of other vaccines already with no real push back?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  82. @73, don’t they require a bunch of other vaccines already with no real push back?

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/9/2021 @ 6:58 pm

    If those populations thought this vaccine was “safe and effective,” wouldn’t they have higher vaccination numbers?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  83. Although, to be fair, mg makes sense more often that DCSCA.

    ‘Beau-loney.’ 😉

    ‘Oh I’m glad I’m not an Oscar Mayer wiener; that is what I wouldn’t want to be; ‘Cause if I were an Oscar Mayer wiener; conservatives would never vote for me!’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  84. Likely Polio. A vaccine well tested.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 9/9/2021 @ 6:55 pm

    And one that doesn’t need a booster every five months to maintain effectiveness.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  85. Blame me all you want, kevin m. Just make darn sure you continue to vote for worse than Trump.

    Remember his motto: ‘Dick Nixon before he dicks you.’ 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  86. And one that doesn’t need a booster every five months to maintain effectiveness.

    Has there ever been a “vaccine” in history foisted on ‘folks’ that has an efficacy of less than 6 months? It’s a cash cow for Big Pharma.

    Even as kids we’d only need to get a tetanus shot ‘booster’ every decade or so.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  87. Richard Cranium comes to mind, DCSCA.

    mg (8cbc69)

  88. @88. Never though The Big Dick or Jimma could be beaten as the worst fvck-up in the Oval [Bubba puns aside]… But leave it to Beau-zo to make it so.

    “If only God was alive to see this.”- Homer Simpson

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  89. If those populations thought this vaccine was “safe and effective,” wouldn’t they have higher vaccination numbers?

    If those populations had a single functioning brain cell, many things are possible. Alas, not a single one amongst them, Darwinism in the form of social conditioning, brainwashing, and conspiracy mongering have now partial responsibility of mass death.

    Including some commenters at this very site. Quoting known lies and conspiracies that may convince someone that not taking productive action is safe, when taking non production action is. Horse dewormer failure in dozens over vaccines successful in the billions.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  90. If those populations had a single functioning brain cell, many things are possible. Alas, not a single one amongst them, Darwinism in the form of social conditioning, brainwashing, and conspiracy mongering have now partial responsibility of mass death.

    I’m not sure how that explains how a majority-minority school district has managed to get through the last year and a half without half the population dying from the coof, but the Boomers commenting here sure seem to have their theories about it.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  91. Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 9/9/2021 @ 6:52 pm

    Get vaccinated against smallpox or pay a five dollar fine seems about the same as get vaccinated against COVID or you get fired and can’t work at a company that has more than 100 employees.

    frosty (9a3571)

  92. Has there ever been a “vaccine” in history foisted on ‘folks’ that has an efficacy of less than 6 months? It’s a cash cow for Big Pharma.

    Even as kids we’d only need to get a tetanus shot ‘booster’ every decade or so.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 9/9/2021 @ 7:09 pm

    And now Pfizer is making a COVID version of the PreP pill to take in between your quarterly booster. Wonder how much money that’s going to make them; PreP costs about $1900 a month.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  93. Polio boosters:

    From the Wikipedia article on polio:

    The disease is preventable with the polio vaccine; however, multiple doses are required for it to be effective.[3] The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends polio vaccination boosters for travelers and those who live in countries where the disease is endemic.[5] Once infected, there is no specific treatment.

    From the Wikipedia article on polio vaccines

    In countries with endemic polio or where the risk of imported cases is high, the WHO recommends OPV vaccine at birth followed by a primary series of three OPV doses and at least one IPV dose starting at 6 weeks of age, with a minimum of 4 weeks between OPV doses. In countries with >90% immunization coverage and low risk of importation, the WHO recommends one or two IPV doses starting at 2 months of age followed by at least two OPV doses, with the doses separated by 4–8 weeks depending on the risk of exposure. In countries with the highest levels of coverage and the lowest risks of importation and transmission, the WHO recommends a primary series of three IPV injections, with a booster dose after an interval of six months or more if the first dose was administered before 2 months of age.

    So, if there is any chance you might be exposed to polio, get one or more booster shots, even if you had the series soon after you were born.

    Interestingly, the “attenuated” versions of the vaccine can sometimes cause polio, not in the person who receives the dose, but in people they might have infected, indirectly.
    (OPV = Oral Polio Vaccine, IPV = Injected Polio vaccine.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  94. Vaccines, including the 3-in-1 MMR, are widely required for school attendance in the United States. (With religious exemptions, commonly. After a measles outbreak in Washington state, the legislature removed the “philosophical” exemption, but kept the religious exemption.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  95. So, if there is any chance you might be exposed to polio, get one or more booster shots, even if you had the series soon after you were born.

    Typically because most traditional vaccines have about a ten-year timeframe when they’re most effective. That’s why the military ends up injecting recruits with a bunch of vaccine boosters after they enlist (of course, we’ll forgo mention of the whole “safe and effective” anthrax vaccine).

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  96. “ On days like today, worth remembering all those “principled conservatives” and “conservative” media outlets that put “country over party” in helping oust Trump from office so that “norms” could be restored. Who can doubt their wisdom?”
    MZ Hemingway

    Obudman (6fea74)

  97. Get vaccinated against smallpox or pay a five dollar fine seems about the same as get vaccinated against COVID or you get fired and can’t work at a company that has more than 100 employees.

    frosty (9a3571) — 9/9/2021 @ 7:20 pm

    That was about $150 back then, which isn’t a small amount of money, but that seems to be as far as it went.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  98. So the postal workers get the no vax payback for the mail in fraud they performed during the election.

    mg (8cbc69)

  99. I think Americans are just more honest about what their “plan to do” is.
    Look at the countries where vaccines are commonly available and have been for some time now, yet the majority of people who are not vaccinated there say they “plan to”. People “plan to” use condoms too and we’ve seen how that works out

    steveg (2c7127)

  100. @94. Got the shot as a kid then the sugar cube in grade school. Salk was a friend of my grandfather in Pgh.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  101. Does Catholic Joe know a ‘six pronged plan’ is really a Devil’s Pitchfork?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  102. I understand your anger at those who haven’t gotten vaccinated.

    The pathetic part about this line from Biden is that he’s clearly talking to the white left-liberal bourgeoisie here and pandering to their hatred of the conservative white working class. He damn well isn’t throwing shade on the middling-vaxxed Black and Hispanic population. Kudos to the puppeteer who kept him on message and prevented a “if y’all don’t get vaccinated, you ain’t black!” bon mot.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  103. Meantime “Pregnant Kylie Jenner Shows Off Her Bare Baby Bump In A Crop Top While In NYC”. (Find your own link.)

    This is not a serious country, and Darwin is cold comfort when 78% of Covid deaths are of people age 65 and older. They have already passed on their genes if they were ever going to. Death panels … you bet, but not too fast, got to keep them around long enough for Ron DeSantis to rake in a few more tens of millions of dollars from Regeneron investors.

    nk (1d9030)

  104. I have nothing to say to all who voted for this fascist.

    NJRob (1697bc)

  105. Re #93/FOW: Is not the same “PreP” that those alternate lifestyle Hamilton rejects hawk on late night and Sling-package TV channels? The endgame might be Gooder and Harderer for the 1 dose for life holdouts.

    urbanleftbehind (4dcd06)

  106. “Darwin is cold comfort when 78% of Covid deaths are of people age 65 and older”
    “Cold comfort” as in maybe there won’t be any need to reform Social Security after all?

    steveg (2c7127)

  107. Yes, steveg, but again, like the reinstatement of Remain in Mexico, the old withering man would be riding the coattails of the actually improving-in-health old man, remember this speech before COVID mania hit full swing:

    https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/ej-montini/2020/03/09/trump-says-cut-social-security-medicare-medicaid-believe-him/4978568002/

    urbanleftbehind (4dcd06)

  108. Re #93/FOW: Is not the same “PreP” that those alternate lifestyle Hamilton rejects hawk on late night and Sling-package TV channels? The endgame might be Gooder and Harderer for the 1 dose for life holdouts.

    urbanleftbehind (4dcd06) — 9/9/2021 @ 8:37 pm

    It’s basically the same concept. Here’s what they said in their press release:

    PFIZER INITIATES PHASE 1 STUDY OF NOVEL ORAL ANTIVIRAL THERAPEUTIC AGENT AGAINST SARS-COV-2

    In-vitro studies conducted to date show that the clinical candidate PF-07321332 is a potent protease inhibitor with potent anti-viral activity against SARS-CoV-2.

    You know what else happens to contain protease inhibitors?

    Exploring the binding efficacy of ivermectin against the key proteins of SARS-CoV-2 pathogenesis: an in silico approach

    Results: Ivermectin was found as a blocker of viral replicase, protease and human TMPRSS2, which could be the biophysical basis behind its antiviral efficiency.

    That’s right–Pfizer is developing their own version of ivermectin, only it won’t be off patent and dirt cheap. And now that we have a federal precedent, watch for the Biden administration to mandate this at some point, too.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  109. “Not a single word from Joe Biden about naturally acquired immunity, which the latest data shows is more durable than the vaccine, and an estimated 100 million Americans already have-

    There is no scientific justification for the omission. It’s dishonest. They don’t care.”

    Obudman (6fea74)

  110. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/9/2021 @ 5:03 pm

    Chronic Perspective Loss.

    I’d like to nominate this comment for most unintentionally ironic. I propose a black kettle as the award.

    frosty (f27e97)

  111. There could be. All Congress needs to do is pass it and Biden sign it.

    But please put it in the form of a tax.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  112. Just make darn sure you continue to vote for worse than Trump.

    I voted “present” in the last two cycles. And wasn’t it trump who told everyone to vote against those two GOP Senators in Georgia because they didn’t kiss the ring good enough?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  113. L.A. school officials order sweeping student vaccine mandate, a first by a major district

    Not hardly.

    The State of California requires all schoolchildren to be vaccinated for a host of illnesses to attend school, both public and private.

    Effective July 1, 2019:
    Immunizations required to enter 7th grade:

    * Tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis booster (Tdap)
    * Varicella (Chickenpox)

    Immunizations required to enter Kindergarten:

    * Polio
    * Diphtheria, Tetanus, and Pertussis (DTaP)
    * Measles, Mumps, and Rubella (MMR)
    * Hepatitis B
    * Varicella (Chickenpox)

    Immunizations required to enter Child Care (depends on age when enrolling):

    * Polio
    * Diphtheria, Tetanus, and Pertussis (DTaP)
    * Haemophilus influenzae type b
    * Measles, Mumps, and Rubella (MMR)
    * Hepatitis B
    * Varicella (Chickenpox)

    Follow these links to see detailed immunization requirements for child care and school entry in California.

    Personal belief exemptions will no longer be permitted beginning January 1, 2016. Personal belief exemptions submitted before January 1, 2016 are valid until the child enters kindergarten (including transitional kindergarten) or 7th grade. Valid medical exemptions from a licensed physician are not affected and will continue to be accepted. More information about the changes in school immunization law.

    https://cchealth.org/immunization/school-requirements.php

    Note also that several doctors have had their licenses revoked for falsely providing medical exemptions.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  114. @77: That commie court! Oh, wait. The VERY NEXT CASE they decided was Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45 (1905).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  115. I’d like to nominate this comment for most unintentionally ironic. I propose a black kettle as the award.

    I don’t conflate mild discomfort with the risk of death on a respirator like you lot do. It is also insane to object to a vaccination by a government that has forced you to serve in their army.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  116. “My job as president is to protect all Americans.” – ‘Senator’ Squinty McStumblebum, 9/9/21

    Well… maybe just 90%, eh, Papa Beauzo?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  117. OOPs, I misread that citation. Locher was decided in April 1905, Jacobson in December. Still, the point is valid that the court most often cited for its objections to state power over the individual didn’t mind a little forced vaccination. Any bets how the current court will vote?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  118. “If these governors won’t help, I will use my powers as president and get them out of the way.”

    Presented without comment.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  119. Joe’s the only POTUS in the history of the office who wakes up in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, ‘Good morning, Senator… do I know you?”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  120. voting present is worse than Trump

    mg (8cbc69)

  121. What china wants biden and the people that voted for him give him. Buh Bye Taiwan.

    mg (8cbc69)

  122. If those populations thought this vaccine was “safe and effective,” wouldn’t they have higher vaccination numbers?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 9/9/2021 @ 7:02 pm

    Maybe. Or they’re waiting to see. Or they’re lazy. Or they’re concerned about have to miss work for a couple days if the kid gets sick with side effects. Either way, this one gets added to the already pretty long list.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  123. Here’s a pro-vaccine mandate article from the federalist from 2015. Interesting read.

    https://thefederalist.com/2015/02/03/the-insane-vaccine-debate/

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  124. As expected, Joe has managed to screw up the reasonable thing, which was having the government-as-employer mandate that government employees get vaccinated.

    1. Using the DOL to mandate that employers with more then 100 employees require is bad in 2 ways. As a policy matter I don’t think it’s warranted, but more importantly it’s another increase of executive power without congressional approval. I hope it’s rejected in the courts for this reason.
    2. Exempting the postal workers union is clearly political favoritism. Some of that is always going to happen but on this scale and for such a charged issues it’s completely ridiculous.

    It’s the expansion of executive power that bothers me the most. I wish there were still a constituency for limiting government power as an end in itself. But there isn’t. The Democrats never valued that as a principle an the GOP has abandoned it except as a talking point to use on things they dislike for policy reasons. Again, I hope the courts strike down the DOL mandate portion of this.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  125. If Trump’s supporters wanted the orange loser reelected they should have reelected him, I think, and it makes me wonder why they did not. Did the Rothschilds get to them? The Illuminati? Do they get a lot of pizza deliveries, anybody know?

    nk (1d9030)

  126. If these governors won’t help, I will use my powers as president and get them out of the way.”

    Presented without comment.

    FWO I saw that quote. It would be repugnant if he were credibly trying to be a tough guy. In his delivery it just seemed a sad.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  127. Our Windy City barrister wrote:

    wouldn’t it be up to you to prove that he isn’t vaccinated,

    That’s what discovery is for but I would hope that the government would have a database I could easily access. Also, in civil cases, you can compel the opposing party as an adverse witness, and if he does not show up or refuses to testify under oath you win automatically.

    So, for a violation of a non-existent law that you suspect, but do not know that someone has violated, the courts would compel him to disclose his private medical history?

    But far worse is your “hope” that the government would have a database you could check on someone’s, anyone’s private medical history. I, at least, would “hope” that you have just pushed yourself further out on a limb than you would really go, just for the sake of internet debate, but really, imagine the implications. There are a lot of things an HR department might want to know in considering applicants: was he ever in drug or alcohol treatment, has he ever seen a psychiatrist, was he ever divorced, and, of course, the big one, which is illegal in your home state, does he have a criminal record?

    There are many questions you cannot legally ask an applicant on his initial job application, including marital status, whether, and how many, children he has, his sexual orientation, HIV status, just a whole host of things, but now you want a government database you can “easily access” concerning his vaccination status. The possibilities of exploring Godwin’s Law abound here!

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  128. I’d like to nominate this comment for most unintentionally ironic. I propose a black kettle as the award.

    I don’t conflate mild discomfort with the risk of death on a respirator like you lot do. It is also insane to object to a vaccination by a government that has forced you to serve in their army.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/9/2021 @ 10:04 pm

    It’s not even the only vaccine the IDF requires. The people who are opposed to this vaccine would be far more credible if they stated their positions directly.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  129. Other Dana, you know you’re being trolled and the idea about suing is referring to the law Texas just passed about suing anyone who intended to facilitate an abortion after 6 week?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  130. The retired Commandant of Stalag 13 noted Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), but that raises the obvious question: not only did it apply to a state law, but it was 60 years before Griswold v Connecticut, in which the Supremes found a ‘right to privacy’ in the Constitution, something subsequently expanded in several cases, to cover several other things, including abortion, homosexual rights and even same-sex marriage, all overthrowing contrary state laws.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  131. Lori Lightfoot’s favorite constituent wrote:

    Meantime “Pregnant Kylie Jenner Shows Off Her Bare Baby Bump In A Crop Top While In NYC”. (Find your own link.)

    But you spotted that story, when I had not! :)

    However, being the always helpful Dana, I found the link for you!

    You’re welcome!!

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  132. FWO I saw that quote. It would be repugnant if he were credibly trying to be a tough guy. In his delivery it just seemed a sad.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/10/2021 @ 4:44 am

    It’s not coming from him, it’s coming from the self-described “cabal” that put him in charge.

    As you pointed out, the fact that the postal workers have been exempted from this shows that this isn’t about enforcing a public safety edict to prevent the spread of a highly lethal contagion. It’s about the cabal trying to take advantage of the situation to grab as much power as they can, so that the tool always stays in the toolbox for when they think it’s needed.

    So, for a violation of a non-existent law that you suspect, but do not know that someone has violated, the courts would compel him to disclose his private medical history?

    The PATRIOT Act was ultimately the precedent that allowed the government to spy on its own citizens, for any reason whatsoever, in the name of “safety.” Keep in mind, this sort of thing was considered so repugnant that the FBI basically lost its case against the Weatherman terrorists because they were using extralegal means to gather information on them. The United States that Captain America-type conservatives like to imagine the country is, has really been dead for quite a while.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  133. Mr 123 wrote:

    Other Dana, you know you’re being trolled and the idea about suing is referring to the law Texas just passed about suing anyone who intended to facilitate an abortion after 6 week?

    I do, but sometimes trolling comments need to be taken seriously. And I’d like to think that an attorney from Chicago went much further than he’d have actually wished when eh said that he “hoped” that there would be an “easily accessible” government database on who is, and is not, vaccinated.

    The sad fact is that from ‘trolling’ in years past, we now have serious attempts at enforcing ‘safe spaces,’ restricted speech, and, let’s be honest, vaccine mandates and passports.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  134. Not trolling now, and it’s a sad fact that only patient-doctor-communications have been traditionally considered privileged. All other patient confidentiality protections have been by statute which can be repealed, amended, or in my scenario superseded by federal law under the Supremacy Clause. And still not trolling, the Electronic Medical Records Mandate, in effect as of January 1, 2014, has already created that easily accessible database, something you likely already know (but I won’t ask you to violate the spousal privilege), and it’s only protected by the one thin layer of gauze of HIPAA.

    nk (1d9030)

  135. “Today, Joe Biden became president. OK, he already was. But this is huge — a dramatic assertion of his right and duty to protect the American people from harm”
    Paul Krugman

    https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1436068411898048520?s=21

    Just in case there were still a few out there where this hasn’t started to sink in.

    Obudman (6fea74)

  136. As you pointed out, the fact that the postal workers have been exempted from this shows that this isn’t about enforcing a public safety edict to prevent the spread of a highly lethal contagion. It’s about the cabal trying to take advantage of the situation to grab as much power as they can, so that the tool always stays in the toolbox for when they think it’s needed.

    Alternative explanation; They made an expectation to the reasonable policy of government-as-employer requiring employees to be vaccinated for postal workers as political payback.

    My explanation requires a lot less tinfoil battery.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  137. And it’s gotten even worse with the Covid. I had to create an account to get in line for my Covid shot at the facility I wanted, which its own self accessed my medical history, and I updated with my insurance information. For my recent annual appointment, my doctor used electronic check-in, which I suppose I could have skipped and checked-in at the office, but you know what? The only difference would have been that the administrative assistant would have been typing in the information to SKYNET instead of me.

    nk (1d9030)

  138. I have to admit a small bit off schadenfreude at all the people worked up about the DOL action who were silent at the eviction moratorium and the Texas bill.

    All three are increases in government power.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  139. Mr Orphan wrote:

    As (Mr 123) pointed out, the fact that the postal workers have been exempted from this shows that this isn’t about enforcing a public safety edict to prevent the spread of a highly lethal contagion. It’s about the cabal trying to take advantage of the situation to grab as much power as they can, so that the tool always stays in the toolbox for when they think it’s needed.

    There have been several pushes to repeal the Patriot Act, mostly by libertarians like Justin Amash, Thomas Massie, and Rand Paul.

    But a “highly lethal contagion”? Being the [insert slang term for the rectum here] that I am, I did something really radical like actually do the math.

    The New York Times had a story with the headline and subhead, “One in 5,000: The real chances of a breakthrough infection.” You have to actually read the story to discover that the 0.02% chance of a fully vaccinated person contracting a breakthrough COVID infection was 1 in 5,000 per day, which means 31 in 5,000 per month, or 365 in 5,000 per year.

    I compared that with the published statistics in Fayette County, Kentucky, and found that the breakthrough rate in Fayette County was a bit higher, 0.0290% per day, but not significantly out of line. Then I used the same set of numbers for the unvaccinated or partially vaccinated population, and found an infection rate, in the same community, of 0.0905% per day, 3.121 times that for the fully vaccinated, but still not even a thousand to one chance that an unvaccinated person will contract the virus on any given day.

    Yes, it makes sense to get the vaccine, because it cuts the chances that if you do contract the virus, you’ll actually get sick. But that raises an obvious question: if the vaccine helps keep those who contract the virus from getting sick, or as sick, as those who have not been vaccinated, are the asymptomatic but vaccinated population being tested at significantly lower rates?

    Highly lethal? With 40,870,000 total cases in the US, and 659,231 COVID deaths, that works out to a mortality rate, under American medical care, of 1.61%. Worldwide, 219,000,000 cases and 4,550,000 deaths, the mortality rate works out to 2.08%. This ain’t the bubonic plague (mortality rate 30 to 60%) or smallpox (30% mortality rate).

    To me, the far, far greater danger is the mortality rate to our constitutional rights, to our liberty and our privacy. Though I suspect that nk was kidding — at least to some extent — when he said that he “would hope that the government would have a database (that he) could easily access,” I’m fairly certain that there are a lot of souls on the left who really would want just that. We already know that far, far, far too many people have accepted “Wir müssen Ihre Dokumente sehen!” as perfectly reasonable and normal.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  140. Data is still provisional but in 2020 Covid was the 3rd leading cause of death in the US. Numbers would need to change by ~30% to move it to either 2nd or 4th.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33830988/

    So it’s not small pox of the plague but its a very big deal.

    I’ll note that it was 3rd even though we did everything we could think of it limit it. Compared to other wealthy western countries we weren’t very good at mitigation, but there are examples of countries that did a lot worse.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  141. To me, the far, far greater danger is the mortality rate to our constitutional rights, to our liberty and our privacy. Though I suspect that nk was kidding — at least to some extent — when he said that he “would hope that the government would have a database (that he) could easily access,” I’m fairly certain that there are a lot of souls on the left who really would want just that. We already know that far, far, far too many people have accepted “Wir müssen Ihre Dokumente sehen!” as perfectly reasonable and normal.

    if you believe this you should support GOP candidates that will act on these principles and speak out against ones that don’t. The Democrats are a lost cause. They don’t even pretend to value this as a principle

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  142. Though I suspect that nk was kidding — at least to some extent — when he said that he “would hope that the government would have a database (that he) could easily access,”

    I suspect we cross-posted. See my comment 139 (5:41 am). “Kidding” is not the word. “Sarcasm”? We already have an easily accessible medical history database.

    nk (1d9030)

  143. The First Amendment still has some teeth. I wonder … what if a doctor claimed to be a worshipper of Apollo, bound by the Hippocratic Oath, and sought refuge in this provision:

    Whatever I see or hear in the lives of my patients, whether in connection with my professional practice or not, which ought not to be spoken of outside, I will keep secret, as considering all such things to be private.

    Would it fly, do you think?

    nk (1d9030)

  144. To me, the far, far greater danger is the mortality rate to our constitutional rights, to our liberty and our privacy.

    And so the illusion transcends and finally conquers the dreamer and he becomes the plaything of his own dream. Well, there are worse dreams, I suppose, and a person must have a reason for which to live as well as the means by which to live.

    nk (1d9030)

  145. The First Amendment still has some teeth. I wonder … what if a doctor claimed to be a worshipper of Apollo, bound by the Hippocratic Oath, and sought refuge in this provision:

    Isn’t the requirement a sincere religious objection?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  146. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/9/2021 @ 10:04 pm

    I don’t conflate mild discomfort with the risk of death on a respirator like you lot do.

    This pathetic strawman should tell you how bad your arguments are and how weak your position is. I’ve noticed that your lot like to fertilize the comments with ad hom, personal insults, bad analogies, bad reasoning, bullying, and gaslighting then just double down when that’s pointed out. That moral high ground you think you’re standing on is just the same BS you’re shoveling.

    I’ve also noticed that your lot has embraced all sorts of authoritarian power grabs and misinformation and torched the economy because ~600k people have died out of ~320M. And I say this as a person who knows a few people who’ve died from COVID. Yes, your lot has lost perspective. When it comes to COVID I’m increasingly convinced your lot has lost its mind.

    It is also insane to object to a vaccination by a government that has forced you to serve in their army

    You may want to rope in that parade. Yes, the Israeli government officially requires everyone to enlist. Unofficially there are a variety of ways to dodge that particular draft. Do you know if this mother is ethnically Arab? Do you know males and females have different options other than joining the IDF?

    More generally do you know if she also opposes the conscription requirement but is simply in a political minority? Would you label any opposition to decisions of the majority insane? Technically, that last one is rhetorical. I think you’ve said enough for my lot to be able to guess the answer.

    frosty (f27e97)

  147. The illusion transcending in France.

    https://youtu.be/3-W3CoI1ZCk

    Obudman (6fea74)

  148. Yes and no. Maybe it’s me, maybe it’s the kind of “law” you get when the 5-4 make it up as they go along, but the way I’ve seen the cases is that we want it sincere but we are not allowed to try (as in litigate) sincerity.

    nk (1d9030)

  149. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/10/2021 @ 5:56 am

    if you believe this you should support GOP candidates that will act on these principles and speak out against ones that don’t. The Democrats are a lost cause. They don’t even pretend to value this as a principle

    Isn’t that exactly what’s going on? At least the speaking out part. We aren’t voting in the comments. TlbnLD (3ee66d) doesn’t strike me as someone speaking out in favor of D’s.

    frosty (f27e97)

  150. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/10/2021 @ 5:55 am

    Data is still provisional but in 2020 Covid was the 3rd leading cause of death in the US. Numbers would need to change by ~30% to move it to either 2nd or 4th.

    Excess deaths amount to approximately 1/6 extra.

    This may be both from direct and indirect causes – and excess deaths could actually under-estimate Covid related deaths if there are less deaths from other causes, like accidents, except there were more deaths from accidents after the initial lockdowns (people speed more on less crowded streets. Sometimes they aren’t as devoid of people as the driver thinks.)

    And then deaths from drug overdoses and suicide and homicide may change for other mostly unrelated reasons.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  151. Sammy all of those confounding issues are important, but I don’t think they will substantially change the rank ordering. It is was 400,000, 420,000, or 380,000 the conclusion wouldn’t change.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  152. 126. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/10/2021 @ 4:42 am

    2. Exempting the postal workers union is clearly political favoritism. Some of that is always going to happen but on this scale and for such a charged issues it’s completely ridiculous.

    By now, this kind of thing shouldn’t be a surprise coming from Biden. He is extremely political. (there is a union)

    He can be pushed around.

    Both ways.

    https://www.foxnews.com/media/washington-post-reporter-postal-service-exemption-biden-vaccine-mandate

    A Washington Post reporter on Thursday night corrected a report claiming that U.S. Postal Service workers – a group of about 650,000 people – would be exempt from President Biden’s executive order calling for federal employees to be vaccinated against the coronavirus.

    “JUST IN: White House official now says USPS workers ARE part of the federal vaccine mandate order under OSHA jurisdiction, though technically not under the executive order,” Post reporter Jacob Bogage wrote on Twitter..

    But the OSHA order is different from the executive order for federal workers.

    Federal workers are required to get the vaccine, period. Although they will be gently pressured starting 75 days from now, since the goal is not to fire anyone. (or be seen to fire anyone, this being Biden.)

    The OSHA mandate offers the alternative of weekly Covid testing if the employer chooses that, that is

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  153. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/10/2021 @ 7:23 am

    Sammy all of those confounding issues are important, but I don’t think they will substantially change the rank ordering. It is was 400,000, 420,000, or 380,000 the conclusion wouldn’t change.

    I don;t know how much but probaby not all that much. I would prefer to use excess deaths, which may make it worse than ranking causes.

    Life expectancy in the U.S. in 2020 was the lowest since 1943 (when apparently battle and other military deaths were counted as U.|AS. population deaths)

    2021 doesn’t look to be better than 2020. It looks like it;s going to totaal up to worse.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  154. Trying to post a link to archive and it’s just disappearing. Not even showing in moderation, but just disappearing.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  155. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/09/teenage-boys-risk-vaccines-covid/

    Teenage boys are six times more likely to suffer from heart problems from the vaccine than be hospitalised from Covid-19, a major study has found
    Children who face the highest risk of a “cardiac adverse event” are boys aged between 12 and 15 following two doses of a vaccine, according to new research from the US.
    The findings come as Professor Chris Whitty, England’s chief medical officer, prepares to advise ministers on whether there is a wider benefit to society from vaccinating children.
    Last week, the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) delivered its long-awaited verdict, saying the “margin of benefit” of jabbing 12- to 15-year-olds was “considered too small” and citing the low risk to healthy children from the virus.
    However, Sajid Javid, the Health Secretary, said he wanted Prof Whitty and the chief medical officers from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to “consider the vaccination of 12- to 15-year-olds from a broader perspective”.

    Stop trying to give children a vaccine that doesn’t benefit them, but puts them at risk of serious health problems.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  156. 115. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/9/2021 @ 10:01 pm

    The VERY NEXT CASE they decided was Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45 (1905).

    It occurs to me that that may not have been a coincidence.

    The Supreme Court, which was activist in a conservative or pro-big business direction, may have wanted to emphasize that the police power was an exception to their “due process” jurisprudence.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  157. 157, NJRob (eb56c3) — 9/10/2021 @ 7:34 am

    Stop trying to give children a vaccine that doesn’t benefit them, but puts them at risk of serious health problems.

    That’s too fine a distinction to make for the CDC to make. It’s all got to fit in one sentence or two.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  158. NJRob (eb56c3) — 9/10/2021 @ 7:34 am

    You are pushing a rope with this one. It’s good to note it but all of the available evidence indicates that boys and young men are the least valued segment of the population. If anyone has to be sacrificed for the safety of the collective that group is going to be first in line.

    frosty (f27e97)

  159. Frosty, Many of the people characterizing this as a fascist expansion of government power had no issue with expansions of government power by their team or in support of their goal. (Ex: the eviction moratorium, right wing attacks on the first amendment, and the Texas abortion bounty)

    This is especially true when they’re critical of GOP and former, GOP, like Amash, who do speak out when their team expands government power.

    The left and right populists are both *fine* with more government power. As long as you’re supporting the populists you’ll get more of this, but maybe aimed at different goals. If a court doesn’t strike this down I’m sure the next GOP president will find a way to use this power to further GOP goals to cheers of the MAGA base.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  160. I can’t read the entire article due the paywall but if that’s correct boys. Age 12-15 shouldn’t receive the vaccine. Does the article specify if it was all versions or just a specific one.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  161. 14. Mr. Go to jail with Mandela;

    Mr. wamted to go see Mandela in jail and got arrested \(??!) because of that, and later Mandela thanked him for trying.

    <i? Mr. murderer of 13 Americans in Kabul;

    That’s a little bit unfair.

    Maybe:

    Mr. No more American soldiers will be killed in Afghanistan on my watch. (which he didn’t precisely say but it’s his reasoning)

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  162. Sammy, I’ve been wondering what having Covid as just another part of life would do to life expectancy. If it’s just something we live with does it just mean that we should get used to the idea of dying from respiratory failure sometime after 60? I haven’t seen any reliable modeling on that.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  163. Here’s a different link to a different article about the same subject

    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58423152

    The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) has focused squarely on the health benefits of vaccination to children themselves – not on the impact to their schooling or other people.

    Children’s risk from Covid isn’t zero but the chances of them becoming seriously ill from Covid are incredibly small. Deaths among healthy children are extremely rare – most [who do die] have life-limiting health conditions. life-limiting here probably means their quality of life is limited, like maybe cystic fibrosis]

    That means there needs to be a clear and obvious advantage to giving them a jab.

    However, a very rare side-effect of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines has made that calculation a lot more complicated.,,,

    Research on millions of people who’ve had the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) shows there’s a tiny risk of myocarditis, or inflammation of the heart, which is more common in young people – and particularly younger boys – after a second dose. It can cause chest pain and a pounding heart, but symptoms usually clear up in days.

    No vaccine or drug is ever 100% safe, and data from the US shows the numbers of children affected are very small.

    For every million Pfizer second doses given to 12-17-year-old-boys, around 60 had the condition (compared with 8 in a million among girls). The rates in this age group are higher than in older ones – and it’s why only one dose for 16 and 17-year-olds in the UK has been recommended, for now. ..

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  164. “I had predicted that we were not going to indulge the brats anymore past Labor Day.”

    “Why blame Biden voters? Put the blame where it belongs. Texas. Yes, the State. For the OSHA mandate, anyway.”

    “If Trump’s supporters wanted the orange loser reelected they should have reelected him, I think, and it makes me wonder why they did not.”

    “And so the illusion transcends and finally conquers the dreamer and he becomes the plaything of his own dream.”

    Whenever I’m tempted to moderate violent eliminationist rhetoric, to say that maybe not ALL Democrats deserve death by public execution, maybe SOME regime propagandists are doing this because they sincerely believe in good-faith arguments for the greatest good, I see nk post, and my conscience clears right up.

    He’s like a daily booster shot for accelerated heart-hardening against ‘expertise’ and ‘data’ of all kinds, constantly alternating between moral proclamations without context and legal arguments without analysis, an eternal reminder that the value in ‘killing all the lawyers’ is almost never a net negative when the totality of their contributions to rhetorical pollution inside and outside the courtroom is taken into consideration.

    Shamspeare (f85c03)

  165. They add there’s the risk of getting myocarditis from Covid itself (probably because that’s a result of producing some antibody but the risk of getting Covid if you don’t get the vaccine is not 100%.

    So someone quoted in the article made amistake.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  166. “Mr. Biden will tread into the private sector by ordering the Labor Department to issue rules requiring companies with 100 workers or more to impose vaccine mandates or conduct weekly testing.”

    This will take some time under the Administrative Procedures Act of 1946.

    Like a year or two.

    By which time Covid might not be around or there’ll be a different vaccine.

    But Biden is mostly interested into being seen as acting.

    And he’s flailing around. He;s doing what he legally can, not what will necessarily work..

    He dearly wants Covid to go away, that part is genuine, and has been told that if more and more Americans gets vaccinated, it will.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  167. The possibilities of exploring Godwin’s Law abound here!

    The less nice Dana referencing Godwin’s Law is rich given the number of times he makes allusions to authoritarianism in his comments about his Governor.

    Rip Murdock (0aa613)

  168. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/10/2021 @ 7:40 am

    You are oversimplifying and combining a number of different issues to create a homogenous group that doesn’t exist.

    This right-wing “populist” group you’ve created is only different from the GOPe “populist” to the degree that you agree with one and not the other. It’s a label that you’re applying to an amorphous group of people that change based on the issue.

    But let’s do this since you think people would be “far more credible if they stated their positions directly”; who exactly do you accuse of having an issue with this but being silent on the moratorium? And “Trumpers” isn’t a valid answer.

    I’ve separated the Texas bill because I think pointing out that you are fine with the democratic process when it relates to things like vaccine mandates is a different discussion. As is your support of some forms of collectivism while criticizing it on different issues.

    frosty (f27e97)

  169. 147. Religious conviction according to the Supreme Court (in ruling on conscientious objectors \i think) doesn’t have to be based on any specific religion. It is not necessary to worship Apollo to believe in the inviolability of the Hippocratic oath, or apart of it.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  170. @166, you seem nice.

    Time123 (9f42ee)


  171. “Mr. Biden will tread into the private sector by ordering the Labor Department to issue rules requiring companies with 100 workers or more to impose vaccine mandates or conduct weekly testing.”

    This will take some time under the Administrative Procedures Act of 1946.

    Not necessarily.

    ………
    OSHA oversees workplace safety, which the agency is likely to contend extends to vaccine mandates. The agency has issued other guidelines for pandemic precautions, such as a rule in June requiring health care employers to provide protective equipment, provide adequate ventilation and ensure social distancing, among other measures.

    “I think that the Department of Labor probably is in good stead to be able to justify its mandate for health and safety reasons for the workers,” said Steve Bell, a partner at the law firm Dorsey & Whitney who specializes in labor and employment.
    ………
    OSHA has the authority to quickly issue a rule, known as an emergency temporary standard, if it can show that workers are exposed to a grave danger and that the rule is necessary to address that danger. The rule must also be feasible for employers to enforce.

    Such a standard would pre-empt existing rules by state governments, except in states that have their own OSHA-approved workplace agencies — about half the states in the country. States with their own programs have 30 days to adopt a standard that is at least as effective, and that must cover state and local government employees, such as teachers. Federal OSHA rules do not cover state and local government employees.

    The regulation is expected to be challenged in court by employers and perhaps even some states. But the legal basis for a state challenge is likely to be weakest in states that are directly within OSHA’s jurisdiction. Among them are some of the states that have been hardest hit by Covid-19 recently and where politicians have been resistant to mandates — such as Texas and Florida.
    ……..

    Source

    Rip Murdock (0aa613)

  172. 109. It’s not a version of ivermectin t’s something which might work on a similar principle.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  173. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/10/2021 @ 8:11 am

    @166, you seem nice.

    I thought the same. He shows remarkable restraint in his ability to comment on daisy’s style. I still can’t do it without remembering the canine fetish reveal.

    frosty (f27e97)

  174. OSHA oversees workplace safety, which the agency is likely to contend extends to vaccine mandates. The agency has issued other guidelines for pandemic precautions, such as a rule in June requiring health care employers to provide protective equipment, provide adequate ventilation and ensure social distancing, among other measures.

    A guideline is not a rule.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  175. OSHA has the authority to quickly issue a rule, known as an emergency temporary standard, if it can show that workers are exposed to a grave danger and that the rule is necessary to address that danger. The rule must also be feasible for employers to enforce.

    How grave and how necessary?

    I see that it can’t put a place of work out of business. Only a Governor can do that./

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  176. Federal workers will have 75 days to get fully vaccinated

    The science is very clear.

    Covid will give a 75 day grace period before infecting anyone.

    BillPasadena (5b0401)

  177. This right-wing “populist” group you’ve created is only different from the GOPe “populist” to the degree that you agree with one and not the other. It’s a label that you’re applying to an amorphous group of people that change based on the issue.


    I’m not sure what your point is. Populists are populists. GOP had some before Trump but I think they’re far more influential now that it’s Trump’s part.

    But let’s do this since you think people would be “far more credible if they stated their positions directly”; who exactly do you accuse of having an issue with this but being silent on the moratorium? And “Trumpers” isn’t a valid answer.

    I think by point is clear without specific examples and adding them isn’t going to make it more persuasive. But since you asked; Anyone that is calling this ‘fascist’ or some other heated rhetoric but had no problem with the Texas bill or the eviction moratorium.

    I’ve separated the Texas bill because I think pointing out that you are fine with the democratic process when it relates to things like vaccine mandates is a different discussion. As is your support of some forms of collectivism while criticizing it on different issues.

    Expansion of state power over individuals is expansion of state power. In this one Biden is using administrative powers where he doesn’t have legislation. In Texas they’re using the courts. I hope *both* are tossed asap. Do you see some specific substantive difference?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  178. 110. “Not a single word from Joe Biden about naturally acquired immunity, which the latest data shows is more durable than the vaccine, and an estimated 100 million Americans already have-

    There is ntot erven an explanation

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  179. Exempting the postal workers union is clearly political favoritism. Some of that is always going to happen but on this scale and for such a charged issues it’s completely ridiculous.

    Considering that postal workers enter every workplace and neighborhood every day, it also undercuts the “national emergency” claims that Biden makes for ordering the DOL to impose these draconian rules on private business.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  180. I can’t read the entire article due the paywall but if that’s correct boys. Age 12-15 shouldn’t receive the vaccine. Does the article specify if it was all versions or just a specific one.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/10/2021 @ 7:42 am

    Go to archive “dot” is

    Search it. You’ll be able to read the full article. That’s why I tried to link that, but it wouldn’t even show up. Seems to be a disappearing game with archive articles.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  181. Doesn’t specify the vaccine, but it’s clearly 2 shot ones.

    A team led by Dr Tracy Hoeg at the University of California investigated the rate of cardiac myocarditis – heart inflammation – and chest pain in children aged 12-17 following their second dose of the vaccine.
    They then compared this with the likelihood of children needing hospital treatment owing to Covid-19, at times of low, moderate and high rates of hospitalisation.
    Researchers found that the risk of heart complications for boys aged 12-15 following the vaccine was 162.2 per million, which was the highest out of all the groups they looked at.
    The second highest rate was among boys aged 16-17 (94.0 per million) followed by girls aged 16-17 (13.4 per million) and girls aged 12-15 (13.0 per million).
    Meanwhile, the risk of a healthy boy needing hospital treatment owing to Covid-19 in the next 120 days is 26.7 per million. This means the risk they face from heart complications is 6.1 times higher than that of hospitalisation.
    This is based on current rates of hospitalisations from Covid-19, which are judged to be “moderate”. During a period of low risk of hospitalisation, such as June 2021, the likelihood of heart complications rises to 22.8 times higher, and during a period of high risk, such as January 2021, the likelihood of heart complications is still 4.3 times higher.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  182. Guys, guys, guys…

    The science is settled. Everyone must get the vaccine! Therefore, Joe is implementing two important requirements:

    1. ALL federal workers must get the vaccine (except the Postal Workers – including those who visit damn near every house in the country damn near every day). I guess maybe the CDC decided that Covid doesn’t affect postal workers?

    2. All employers with at least 100 employees must require employees to be vaccinated. I guess maybe the CDC now thinks Covid doesn’t infect people in offices with 85 people.

    Science! You friggin Neanderthals. Science!

    SMDSMMFD-W (7438e3)

  183. And still not trolling, the Electronic Medical Records Mandate, in effect as of January 1, 2014, has already created that easily accessible database, something you likely already know (but I won’t ask you to violate the spousal privilege), and it’s only protected by the one thin layer of gauze of HIPAA.

    I found that I could go to my state’s DoH website and download my immunization record, covering more than just Covid. As with most privacy rules, they don’t apply to government.

    WRT privacy, government is like the “friend” who steals your stuff, then helps you look for it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  184. The much nicer Mr Murdock wrote:

    The possibilities of exploring Godwin’s Law abound here!

    The less nice Dana referencing Godwin’s Law is rich given the number of times he makes allusions to authoritarianism in his comments about his Governor.

    Well, it seems as though the voters of the Commonwealth of Kentucky pretty much agreed with me, and the authoritarian nature of the now slapped down Governor. In reaction to his decrees and his refusal to include the General Assembly, the voters gave Republican candidates running against his Führerbefehle 14 additional seats in the state House of Representatives, and two additional seats, out of just 19 up for election, in the state Senate.

    In March, the General Assembly passed laws, over Herr Beshear’s vetoes, limiting his executive orders to thirty days unless extended by the legislature. Naturally, as any good little authoritarian, he got a Democratic toady judge, Phillip Shepherd, to issue injunctions against those laws, but the state Supreme Court finally ruled that it is the legislature, and not the executive, which sets policy for the Commonwealth of Kentucky.

    The wannabe dictator was finally forced to call a special session of the legislature, because his declaration of emergency would have expired today. The legislature extended that until January 15th, when they’d be back in regular session, but also passed, again, over vetoes, two bills which prohibited the state Board of Education from issuing mandatory mask requirements for all schools, something they did set to last the entire school year, and prohibited the state government from issuing statewide mask mandates.

    The General Assembly did what the people who voted for them wanted. Elections have consequences and all that.

    Individual school districts — there are 161 in the Commonwealth — still have the authority to impose mask mandates for their schools, and it is expected that Fayette and Jefferson counties, the two largest, will do so. The Governor had first asked all school districts to impose mask mandates, but when most declined, the Governor made it an order. The state Board of Education, worried that the state Supremes might slap the Governor down, then issued its regulations, which the General Assembly just ended.

    Thing is, the Governor might have avoided much of this if he had included the legislature in his efforts in 2020, but he deliberately refused. On July 10, 2020, Mr Beshear stated that he wouldn’t involve the legislature because he believed that they wouldn’t do his bidding.

    Beshear was asked at Friday’s news conference on COVID-19 why he has not included the legislature in coming up with his orders. He said many state lawmakers refuse to wear masks and noted that 26 legislators in Mississippi have tested positive for the virus.

    The Libertarian Party has about zero influence in Kentucky, but I’d note that two of the most lower case libertarian members of Congress, Rand Paul and Thomas Massie, are from the Bluegrass State.

    The link is, of course, to my fabulous site, because to add all of the documentary links would send this comment into moderation, but everything I’ve typed here has been thoroughly linked on my site.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  185. Whatever I see or hear in the lives of my patients, whether in connection with my professional practice or not, which ought not to be spoken of outside, I will keep secret, as considering all such things to be private.

    The problem here is that very little of our medical records are actually private. We sign away that privacy with every medical policy, life insurance application, hospital admission or “free” medical service. Other agreements we sign, such as job applications, can have such a privacy waiver. Once we waive our privacy even the Hippocratic Oath isn’t applicable.

    And of course government exempts itself from privacy rules. Biden is attempting, by regulation, to get the IRS access to every last financial record held by third parties.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  186. This pathetic strawman should tell you how bad your arguments are and how weak your position is. I’ve noticed that your lot like to fertilize the comments with ad hom, personal insults, bad analogies, bad reasoning, bullying, and gaslighting then just double down when that’s pointed out. That moral high ground you think you’re standing on is just the same BS you’re shoveling.

    I’ve also noticed that your lot has embraced all sorts of authoritarian power grabs and misinformation and torched the economy because ~600k people have died out of ~320M. And I say this as a person who knows a few people who’ve died from COVID. Yes, your lot has lost perspective. When it comes to COVID I’m increasingly convinced your lot has lost its mind.

    You speak of strawmen and ad hominums, yet all you post is a long ad hominum that would be improved it if had an actual strawman.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  187. OSHA has the authority to quickly issue a rule, known as an emergency temporary standard, if it can show that workers are exposed to a grave danger and that the rule is necessary to address that danger. The rule must also be feasible for employers to enforce.

    Of course, when you exempt the postal service from the rule, those claims of “grave danger” and emergency status are rather wounded.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  188. SMDSMMFD-W wrote:

    ALL federal workers must get the vaccine (except the Postal Workers – including those who visit damn near every house in the country damn near every day). I guess maybe the CDC decided that Covid doesn’t affect postal workers?

    Except, of course, the Post Office won’t deliver to my house!

    To get mail at our house, I would have to put a mailbox along the main road, into ground that’s about impossible to dig without a machine auger due to railroad ballast and rock, and to retrieve mail from it I would have to stand out on a state highway; immediately off the highway the ground slopes away at a roughly 45º angle into a drainage ditch.

    So, we have to pay for a post office box, which seems silly: it costs the post office less to simply put our mail into the box there than put it in a truck to deliver it to us. FedEx and UPS will, of course, deliver to our humble abode.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  189. #166

    Clever, funny, great with a needle. Makes me laugh in spite of the stiletto wound just delivered.

    Reminds me that if I’m going to dish it out:
    1. It needs to be good
    2. I’m gonna have to learn to take it from someone who is better than I am.

    Sometimes I feel like a mouse that just got let go by a bored cat, but I never feel disliked or like I’m an inferior human. Just an inferior opponent in this arena. No shame there.

    steveg (2c7127)

  190. Rob from the Jersey Shore wrote:

    Stop trying to give children a vaccine that doesn’t benefit them, but puts them at risk of serious health problems.

    You simply don’t understand! If we don’t force the vaccine on children, then the government loses its authority to force it onto adults. He quoted:

    Last week, the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) delivered its long-awaited verdict, saying the “margin of benefit” of jabbing 12- to 15-year-olds was “considered too small” and citing the low risk to healthy children from the virus.

    However, Sajid Javid, the Health Secretary, said he wanted Prof Whitty and the chief medical officers from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to “consider the vaccination of 12- to 15-year-olds from a broader perspective”.

    What is that “broader perspective”? Well, it could be that unvaccinated children would have a greater chance of picking up the virus — something that really hasn’t been proven yet — and carrying it to other people, such as parents or grandparents, who might be more vulnerable. “Broader perspective” in that sense means that they must force the vaccine not to protect the vaccinated individual, but other people, which is the same argument being made in the United States, that even if you don’t care about yourself, you will be obligated to protect other people. Your body does not belong to you; it belongs to the State!

    Of course, there are some of us who believe that the “broader perspective” means that they must not give away even a centimeter of the State’s control over the individual, because that might lead to, Heaven forfend! more individual liberty!

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  191. Easy to understand Covid Data and Policy Questions, Dr. John Campbell.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  192. Postal workers will be subject to Biden vaccine mandate, contrary to initial confused reports
    Employees of the United States Postal Service will be required to get a COVID-19 vaccine or be tested under President Joe Biden’s new vaccine initiative, contrary to confused early reporting after the administration rolled out the mandate Thursday evening.
    ……..
    The confusion stemmed from the Postal Service’s relationship with the federal government. The Postal Service is an independent agency in the executive branch that is not subject to the president’s executive orders. That means Biden’s order requiring all federal employees to be vaccinated would not apply to the Postal Service.

    However, the Postal Service is subject to regulations from the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration. OSHA will be issuing a regulation under Biden’s plan that will require workers at all companies with 100 or more employees to be vaccinated or submit to weekly testing. That regulation will apply to the Postal Service, which has about 650,000 employees.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (0aa613)

  193. Mr M quoted:

    OSHA has the authority to quickly issue a rule, known as an emergency temporary standard, if it can show that workers are exposed to a grave danger and that the rule is necessary to address that danger. The rule must also be feasible for employers to enforce.

    I didn’t see to cite the original from which he quoted.

    However, if the standard is “grave danger,” then we have to ask is the danger grave? I cited above the New York Times story that the fully vaccinated have an only one in 5,000 chance, per day, of contracting the virus. If that statistic is accurate, over a 250 day work year, the vaccinated worker would have only a 5% chance of contracting a virus, over an entire year, from his workmates, and the virus has only a 1.61% mortality rate in the United States. This means that, over the course of a work year, a vaccinated person would have an 0.0805% chance of contracting an illness at work which would actually put him in the grave.

    Yeah, I know: “grave danger” does not mean actually putting someone in his grave! But at some point, individual rights have to trump the government defining “grave danger” down to the pushing of insignificance. And with the CDC reporting that vaccinated people with the Delta variant of the virus carried roughly the same viral load in their noses and throats as unvaccinated people, there seems to be little proof that vaccinated people are somehow less carriers of the disease than the unvaccinated.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  194. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/10/2021 @ 8:48 am

    You speak of strawmen and ad hominums, yet all you post is a long ad hominum that would be improved it if had an actual strawman.

    There’s that doubling down I totally wasn’t expecting. I’m so wounded by the retort I can barely type. Laughing so hard … ok better now.

    It’s pretty hard to go from @50 to “I respect my integrity and stop mocking me” but I’ll give you credit for giving it the ole college try.

    Now back to the regular screeds against the people who just need to do what they’re told.

    frosty (16ba31)

  195. OSHA Emergency Temporary Standards

    Under certain limited conditions, OSHA is authorized to set emergency temporary standards that take effect immediately and are in effect until superseded by a permanent standard. OSHA must determine that workers are in grave danger due to exposure to toxic substances or agents determined to be toxic or physically harmful or to new hazards and that an emergency standard is needed to protect them. Then, OSHA publishes the emergency temporary standard in the Federal Register, where it also serves as a proposed permanent standard. It is then subject to the usual procedure for adopting a permanent standard except that a final ruling should be made within six months. The validity of an emergency temporary standard may be challenged in an appropriate U.S. Court of Appeals.
    ……..
    My emphasis. US Code citation.

    Rip Murdock (0aa613)

  196. Time123 at 173
    @166, you seem nice.

    He is a hundreds of times banned by Patterico troll who appears here with a VPN and a new nick each to time to avoid the ban filter, most commonly referred to as Steppe Nomad one of his early nicks. But like they say in Canada, when Patterico is away, the Molyneux/Spencer neo-Nazi FAPpers will come out to play.

    nk (1d9030)

  197. On June 21, 2021, the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) had its Occupational Exposure to COVID-19, Emergency Temporary Standard (ETS) published in the Federal Register, making it immediately effective on that date. ……….OSHA has the authority to issue an ETS, for immediate application upon publication in the Federal Register, without first proceeding through typical notice-and-comment rulemaking, if OSHA “determines” that “employees are exposed to grave danger from exposure to substances or agents determined to be toxic or physically harmful or from new hazards,” and an ETS is “necessary to protect employees from such danger.” 29 USC §655(c)(1).
    ……….
    The ETS is accompanied by a preamble of more than 200 pages, much of it devoted to OSHA’s determinations regarding the grave danger and need for the ETS generally and each provision specifically. In the preamble, OSHA recognizes and addresses the most likely legal challenges to the ETS. OSHA begins by framing the ETS as an action which OSHA was required to take, because the OSH Act provides that OSHA “shall provide… for an emergency temporary standard” upon a finding of grave danger and need for the ETS. 29 USC §655(c)(1)………

    With respect to the grave danger element, OSHA’s position is that it need only show that the dangers to workers from COVID-19 are “incurable, permanent, or fatal…as opposed to easily curable and fleeting effects on their health.” ………..OSHA begins by discussing the nature of the disease, including its health and “other adverse effects”, including “observed disparities in risk based on race and ethnicity,” and continues by addressing the transmission of the virus and the effect of vaccines on OSHA’s determination of grave danger, the effect on healthcare workplaces in particular. ……..OSHA finds that “the advent of vaccines does not eliminate the grave danger …in healthcare workplaces where less than 100% of the workforce is fully vaccinated,” due to spread among unvaccinated workers, the risk of breakthrough infection among the vaccinated, and vaccine hesitancy among health care workers. ………..OSHA hedges that ‘[i]f and when OSHA finds a grave danger from the virus no longer exists for the covered workforce (or some portion thereof), or new information indicates a change in measures necessary to address the grave danger, OSHA will update the ETS, as appropriate.” ………. In the meantime, relying on “CDC guidance and the best available evidence, OSHA finds a grave danger in healthcare for vaccinated and unvaccinated HCP involved in the treatment of COVID-19 patients.” ……
    ………
    Source

    Internal citations omitted.

    Current OSHA COVID-19 Emergency Temporary Standard

    Rip Murdock (0aa613)

  198. As for the frosted flake, my parole officer who monitors all my internet activity is of the opinion that it, the frosted flake, is of legal age (albeit indeterminate along with its gender, sexuality, mental hygiene, and perpetuity of involuntary celibacy) whose trauma is easily triggered back to middle school noogies and wedgies from the mean girls, but I see no point in engaging it in any case.

    nk (1d9030)

  199. So, first of all,

    It must be:

    …due to exposure to toxic substances or agents determined to be toxic or physically harmful or to new hazards

    This is designed for poisons, and it is a little bit of a stretch to call a virus a poison.

    A standard limiting the number of SARS2 viral particles in the air, or for ventilation (air exchanges per hour) is more in line with the text.

    And also usually this is something that the business is responsible for bringing, not something other workers may take in with them, although it could be pollution. An analogy maybe might be there being radioactivity outside which a worker might take with him.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  200. The current standard applies to:

    to settings where any employee provides healthcare services or healthcare support services.

    where

    SARS-CoV-2, the virus that
    causes COVID-19, presents a grave danger to workers in healthcare settings where people with COVID-19 are reasonably expected to be present

    Places of increased risk, but not for instance, a pharmacy.

    It requires an employer to, in regard to:

    Vaccination – Provide reasonable time
    and paid leave for vaccinations and vaccine side effects.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  201. NK, i remember that chucklehead.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  202. See, steveg at 192? Like Melania has been saying for the last ten years, it’s not hard. And unlike those two above-mentioned trot-ruffles (say it like Elmer Fudd and think of old commenter JD), it can be funny too.

    nk (1d9030)

  203. 196. The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d) — 9/10/2021 @ 9:34 am

    ith the CDC reporting that vaccinated people with the Delta variant of the virus carried roughly the same viral load in their noses and throats as unvaccinated people,

    They are wrong or misleading about that, like they are about almst everything else.

    1) The PCR test does not distinguish between live virus and dead virus, and vaccinated people have more dead virus.

    2) The test results are not the same two das after the first test results – then vaccinated people are less likely to test positive.

    3) The immunity from the vaccine is less in the nose than in the lungs. But immunity in the nasal passages and immunity in the lungs that acquired from an infection is more balanced.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  204. 195,

    Employees of the United States Postal Service will be required to get a COVID-19 vaccine or be tested under President Joe Biden’s new vaccine initiative, contrary to confused early reporting after the administration rolled out the mandate Thursday evening.

    Subject to the inistive, but not the same rules as civil service workers.

    Civil service workers won’t have the option of getting tested

    Employees of the United States Postal Service will be subject to the same rules as other employees of medium to large organizations (N= > 100 employees]

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  205. The Kentucky Dana @191.

    Except, of course, the Post Office won’t deliver to my house!

    The USPS doesn;t do that any more, except for the millions and millions of homes grandfathered in.

    It must be a newly built house that did not replace an old house.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  206. #58

    It’s a shiny object dropped on a Thursday into the news cycle designed to flush through the weekend shows on top of 9/11 garbage and distract the 30-something news poodles and AC-360 wannabes from the Afghanistan disaster.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 9/9/2021 @ 5:33 pm

    THAT’S exactly why Biden is picking this fight.

    Even SCOTUS will strike this down, because they answered that question from one of the Obamacare case.

    Vaccination requirements is NOT something the Federal government can mandate. (states can)

    They’re so desperate to change the topic away from Afghanistan, they’re literally picking a fight like this.

    Don’t ignore Afghanistan.

    whembly (0ae2ca)

  207. whembly (0ae2ca) — 9/10/2021 @ 10:55 am

    Vaccination requirements is NOT something the Federal government can mandate. (states can)

    Its not attempting to.

    Biden wants to mandate that medium to large employers give employees the option of taking a vaccine, taking Covid tests weekly or be excluded from a workplace and possibly fired. (there probably will be a condition under which the test or vaccine is no longer mandatory)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  208. @211 Sammy, that’s exactly what they’re trying to do. Stop spinning this.

    Introducing requirements via OSHA under penalty of significant fines *is* exactly trying to enforce a mandate.

    whembly (0ae2ca)

  209. “Today, Joe Biden became president. OK, he already was. But this is huge — a dramatic assertion of his right and duty to protect the American people from harm”
    Paul Krugman

    Beaush!t.

    Tell that to:

    Marine Corps Lance Cpl. David L. Espinoza, 20, of Rio Bravo, Texas
    Marine Corps Sgt. Nicole L. Gee, 23, of Sacramento, Calif.
    Marine Corps Staff Sgt. Darin T. Hoover, 31, of Salt Lake City
    Army Staff Sgt. Ryan C. Knauss, 23, of Corryton, Tenn.
    Marine Corps Cpl. Hunter Lopez, 22, of Indio, Calif.
    Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Rylee J. McCollum, 20, of Jackson, Wyo.
    Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Dylan R. Merola, 20, of Rancho Cucamonga, Calif.
    Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Kareem M. Nikoui, 20, of Norco, Calif.
    Marine Corps Sgt. Johanny Rosario Pichardo, 25, of Lawrence, Mass.
    Marine Corps Cpl. Humberto A. Sanchez, 22, of Logansport, Ind.
    Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Jared M. Schmitz, 20, of St. Charles, Mo.
    Navy Hospital Corpsman Maxton W. Soviak, 22, of Berlin Heights, Ohio
    Marine Corps Cpl. Daegan W. Page, 23, of Omaha, Neb.

    That old, demented, incompetent brain-damaged, watch-looking SOB killed these kids– and he’s trying to get ‘folks’ to forget it. He hasn’t mentioned Afghanistan since.

    This is his Oath:

    “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

    This is the Job Description:

    https://governmentexecutivebranch.weebly.com/presidents-job-description.html

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  210. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/10/2021 @ 8:24 am

    Expansion of state power over individuals is expansion of state power.

    In our back and forth on covid vs flu mandates you started with data and cost/benefit. When that didn’t work you fell back on being ok with letting the political process work it out. Personally, I thought that was a non sequitur. The political process will work it out either way and it just seemed like an attempt to disengage. Did I misunderstand that?

    In this one Biden is using administrative powers where he doesn’t have legislation. In Texas they’re using the courts. I hope *both* are tossed asap. Do you see some specific substantive difference?

    They aren’t “using the courts” in the way that phrase is commonly used. They passed a law and that is the very definition of the political processing working it out. If you’re good with the political process for mandates why are you making a stink about it for abortion? It sounds a little like your doing exactly what you accuse the tribe you don’t like of doing, i.e. playing the ends justify the means game. Of course, I could have misunderstood:

    This is reasonable. I wish it had come with some explanations for how effective the vaccine is, and how low the rate of complications has been, but I think this is a reasonable step for government employees.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/9/2021 @ 12:55 pm

    Maybe what you meant there is that this isn’t reasonable. If it’s reasonable why do you think it should be “tossed asap”? My arithmetic isn’t so good but that looks like less than 24 hours. What happened that you went from “reasonable” to “tossed asap” overnight?

    I’m not sure what your point is.

    My point is exactly what I said. When you’re against something it’s populist or collectivist, I don’t see you making a distinction. When it’s something you’re in favor of, e.g. everyone getting the vaccine for the common good, you pretend it’s not populist or collectivist.

    You’re also against tribalism except when you’re doing it and you’ve got fascism right in front of you but you’re mocking anyone that points it out.

    You’re lecturing people about speaking out against what they don’t agree with and also telling people it’s funny to see them speak out now because they didn’t speak out before. But you can’t provide any examples of that except to wave in the general direction of a tribe you’ve named.

    frosty (f27e97)

  211. CNN – Fauci is asked by Dr. Sanjay Gupta why people who had Covid already are being required to vaccinate, even though they’re likely more protected than vaccinated people

    “That’s a really good point…I don’t have a really firm answer for you on that”

    https://twitter.com/theeliklein/status/1436387479469404164?s=21

    Obudman (6fea74)

  212. “That’s a really good point…I don’t have a really firm answer for you on that”

    Fire him.

    Now.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  213. After 20 months Fauci doen’t know enough about recovered immunity to answer Gupta?
    Maybe we should reconsider our thinking on the depth and breadth of his expertise.
    He is good at twaffling and impeding.

    steveg (2c7127)

  214. In our back and forth on covid vs flu mandates you started with data and cost/benefit. When that didn’t work you fell back on being ok with letting the political process work it out. Personally, I thought that was a non sequitur. The political process will work it out either way and it just seemed like an attempt to disengage. Did I misunderstand that?

    Yup, I failed to communicate my point.

    I’ll try again

    When there’s a question of balancing competent goods, or determining if a policy trade off is justified by the benefits within lawful government action I think the political process is the best way to resolve that. In the case of the Covid vaccine it was if the diseases was deadly and contagious enough to justify mandating the vaccine. “Deadly and contagious enough” Is a debatable point. I think the political process is the best way to answer that. While there are some absolutists such as yourself I think most people would have a threshold on where a disease is deadly enough that mandatory vaccination is justified. I think we use politics to figure that out. I hope that clears it up.

    If you’re good with the political process for mandates why are you making a stink about it for abortion?

    I think creating a right of civil action for legal behavior is an expansion of government power. They can’t lawfully ban something so they set up a right for citizens to sue and stacked the process to favor the plaintiffs. Since courts have found that abortions at 6 weeks is something we have a right to do this is a way to get take that right away.

    Maybe what you meant there is that this isn’t reasonable. If it’s reasonable why do you think it should be “tossed asap”? My arithmetic isn’t so good but that looks like less than 24 hours. What happened that you went from “reasonable” to “tossed asap” overnight?

    I think government-as-employer mandating federal employees be vaccinated is reasonable.
    I think ordering the DOL to require companies with more then 100 employees to make such a mandate is not reasonable because it’s a increase of executive power. I want the courts to rule against that increase and impose a limit on what the executive branch can order businesses to do though the DOL. Not sure which comments you’re comparing but when I first read the story I didn’t catch part about the department of labor.

    Had congress passed a law mandating what the DOL did I wouldn’t see that as an egregious expansion of government, I would see it as bad policy, primarily because at that point they should just mandate it at the individual level.

    This action by Biden is populist, if less so then the eviction moratorium. I don’t think people who oppose only one as an expansion of government power are being sincere about their motivations. I don’t see any reason to get into who is / isn’t doing this so I’m not bothering to do that. I made the original comment to the Other Dana because I think he does usually want less government and thought he might find my point worth thinking about.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  215. My point is exactly what I said. When you’re against something it’s populist or collectivist, I don’t see you making a distinction. When it’s something you’re in favor of, e.g. everyone getting the vaccine for the common good, you pretend it’s not populist or collectivist.

    There are populist / collectivist things I strongly support such as clean drinking water, roads, police and fire services, National Defense, FEMA, preventing the spread of infectious disease etc. Generally where there is a situation plagued by a collective action problem. This makes me an imperfect individualist, but I’m OK with that. There’s a lot room between the pure libertarian ideal of Somalia and pure communist ideal of the USSR. Or whatever examples you like.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  216. Wrong post.

    NJRob (fbe422)

  217. Given the disastrous last several weeks, this move by Biden was a cynical ploy to return the country to a space that the Biden crew is familiar with: folks with Biden are virtuous doers of good and those that don’t adhere to the party line are evil, they’re the “enemy”. His speech left little doubt about that.

    The corksoaker Uniter has drawn the line.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  218. I think nothing actually changed with the postal workers, but Biden’s people were trying to mislead the media (and the public) about what precisely Biden was doing. He was not mandating that more than people directly employed by the federal government or its contractors get the vaccine, although they were pretending that more people were being mandated to get the vaccine. Maybe they were hoping some people thought so and decided therefore to get vaccinated.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  219. “As for the frosted flake…”

    Even when nk makes short posts specifically to insult, they’re somehow both barely readable and completely projected from his own experiences, the product of a mind too lazy and a society too tiny to withstand sustained opposition from any comment section containing normal people.

    It’s no wonder that only him and Danx are gamely trying to support such obviously ugly government overreach, with Dana playing the schoolmarm getting off on compliance and him the shameless teacher’s pet in a psychodrama so common that only society-wide atomization and desocialization can prevent people from observing the obvious connection.

    William Shortname (7dae82)

  220. William Shortname (7dae82) — 9/10/2021 @ 1:34 pm

    as insults go frosted flake is creative so there’s that. name calling is the highest form of discourse for some and I think it should be acknowledged when done well. otherwise it might wither on the vine.

    frosty (f27e97)

  221. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    The Kentucky Dana @191.

    Except, of course, the Post Office won’t deliver to my house!

    The USPS doesn;t do that any more, except for the millions and millions of homes grandfathered in.

    It must be a newly built house that did not replace an old house.

    Our farmhouse is a fixer upper, and when I tore into the kitchen walls whilst remodeling it, I found a piece of the Louisville Courier-Journal used as insulation; it was dated April 4, 1927.

    There is one other house close to me, which used to be an old train station. There are inactive railroad tracks between my house and the main highway, but the actual county street on which my house is addressed is one the contract employee for the local Post Office refuses to take.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  222. Milley killed an innocent man and seven children.

    Print story here.

    Video here.

    And are you at all surprised?

    nk (1d9030)

  223. Mr Finkelman noted:

    Biden wants to mandate that medium to large employers give employees the option of taking a vaccine, taking Covid tests weekly or be excluded from a workplace and possibly fired.

    Since we know that fully vaccinated persons can contract the virus, and thus pass along the virus, why wouldn’t the mandate include the testing of the vaccinated as well as the unvaccinated, if the purpose is meant to slow the spread of the virus?

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (3ee66d)

  224. Since we know that fully vaccinated persons can contract the virus, and thus pass along the virus, why wouldn’t the mandate include the testing of the vaccinated as well as the unvaccinated, if the purpose is meant to slow the spread of the virus?

    Erm, for the same reason that office workers at a concrete plant don’t have to wear N-95 masks, hardhats, and steel-toed boots? De minimis and cost-benefit?

    nk (1d9030)

  225. There’s a fictional account of Stalin explaining the Ukrainian famine. He says that a government is not only called upon to apportion benefits; it will also sometimes need to apportion misery. I’m content with the willfully unvaccinated getting all the misery for now. Aren’t you?

    nk (1d9030)

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