Patterico's Pontifications

9/7/2021

Absurd Claim: Getting A COVID-19 Vaccine Or Not Getting One Doesn’t Impact Anyone But You

Filed under: General — Dana @ 3:20 pm



[guest post by Dana]

On Friday, Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida actually made the absurd claim about COVID-19 vaccines when pushing back on the idea of vaccine passports:

It’s about your health and whether you want that protection or not. It really doesn’t impact me or anyone else.

This is the exact kind of untrue statement that plays well with the DeSantis crowd. But bcause people want it to be true, doesn’t make it so:

Getting the vaccine certainly helps the person who gets the shot — the governor’s not wrong about that. It vastly reduces the chances of being hospitalized or dying of the disease. But it also reduces the spread of the virus to others. That’s the critical point that DeSantis is disregarding in his zeal to appeal to the freedom-at-all-costs far-right of his party as he heads into reelection and eyes the White House.

Yes, there are breakthrough cases, when vaccinated people still become infected. And, yes, there are some legitimate medical and religious reasons for not getting vaccinated. But by all others getting the vaccine, you cut down on the chances that you’ll get COVID and then pass it on to others.

That means you, as a vaccinated person, are helping to safeguard people who can’t get the shot, like children under 12 and the immunocompromised, such as those with transplanted organs. You’re also helping to protect seniors whose immunity often isn’t robust enough even they are vaccinated. You might even be saving the life of someone who simply refuses to get the vaccine.

Anyway, it appears that DeSantis took a hit in a recent poll for his handling of the pandemic. Time will tell whether this is an outlier or not:

On DeSantis’ plans to issue $5,000 fines to businesses with “vaccine passports,” 60% of voters similarly oppose that approach compared to 40% who support it.

There’s even more vocal exasperation at DeSantis’ attempt to withhold salaries for school officials enacting mask mandates, with near 70% opposed to such an approach. Even 60% of Republicans oppose that plan.

Overall, fewer than 41% give a favorable grade to DeSantis for his handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, and just over 42% give him a passing favorability rate at all. His favorability rating in the poll sank 11 points from late August.

But if there’s a job voters want DeSantis to hold less than Governor, it’s President. About 59% of Florida voters said they would vote for someone else if he were to run for Commander-in-Chief in 2024, compared to just 41% who would welcome such a run.

Meanwhile, fully-vaccinated Americans frustrated that so many continue to *refuse a vaccine and that we’re still in midst of the damn pandemic are being told that we’re just not living in real America:

According to Johns Hopkins University, the U.S. has seen had more than 40 million cases of COVID-19 reported, and more than 649,000 people have died from the virus in the U.S.

[Ed. *for reasons other than underlying medical conditions.]

–Dana

143 Responses to “Absurd Claim: Getting A COVID-19 Vaccine Or Not Getting One Doesn’t Impact Anyone But You”

  1. GET VACCINATED!

    Dana (174549)

  2. No way. I have antibodies.

    mg (8cbc69)

  3. How will DeSantis’s top donor make money from Regeneron if nobody catches Covid?

    nk (1d9030)

  4. A menu of vaccines that require 1,2,3,4… who knows how many ‘boosters’ is indicative of weak efficacy and stinks suspiciously of profiteering by Big Pharma akin to the MIC contracting architecture used to suck billions from the Treasury for services and toys lost to the 20 year Afghan War. Wait for the pill.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  5. Israel has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, but are now telling everyone prepare for jab number four, the infection rates there are climbing fast and the CDC just downgraded the definition of ‘vaccine’ from a product that produces immunity to a preparation for protection.

    And people wonder why so many are having doubts about what is real.

    Obudman (cb4106)

  6. Will Fauci’s name go down with Mengele’s as someone whose horrific experiments took millions of lives?

    Funding China’s labs to do experimentation banned here is beyond horrific.

    NJRob (402c27)

  7. What if the tables are turned somewhat and mg is in danger of “forced antibody donation” or state sponsored vampirism?

    urbanleftbehind (a08d51)

  8. There are two WHO-designated sites where stocks of variola virus are stored and used for research: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia, United States, and the Russian State Centre for Research on Virology and Biotechnology, Koltsovo, Novosibirsk Region, Russian Federation.

    Variola virus is the virus that causes smallpox in people.

    Guten tag, Herr Doktor Hauptsturmführer Mengele! Wie geht es ihnen?

    nk (1d9030)

  9. Obudsman, the reduction in cases and improvement in outcome for people who have been vaccinated is massive.

    Here’s a report from Oklahoma. I don’t expect you to take my word for it or data from any place that doesn’t share you political leanings. But Oklahoma is as Red a state as you can find.

    https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/covid19/documents/weekly-epi-report/2021.09.01%20Weekly%20Epi%20Report.pdf

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  10. NJRob,

    A lot of people are very angry right now that:

    1) Joe Rogan didn’t die

    and 2) Rand Paul was right about Fauci.

    Obudman (cb4106)

  11. BTW, since the millions of lives were taken when Fauci worked for the Trump Reich, will Trump go down in history as Hitler?

    nk (1d9030)

  12. See page 9

    1.7million vaccinated. 6,400 breakthrough cases, 406 hospitalization and 74 deaths.

    Among unvaccinated there have been 550,000 cases and 8,000 deaths.

    But if you don’t like OK there are plenty of other places to look.

    Not to say there might not be a 3rd short (or whatever) needed. But it works.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  13. You get covid from someone else. Be interesting as mr. spock says if he campaigns for president in blue states.

    asset (11ee1a)

  14. Time123,

    Not according to VAERS.

    NJRob (402c27)

  15. Where do you need to be from to even know who Joe Rogan is in the first place, let alone be upset that he did not die? I heard about him for the first time on these threads when someone mentioned him in connection with horse dewormer, and I thought he was some Congressman.

    As for Paul Rand … that’s probably the most the twerp has accomplished in his government career. If it turns out to be more than spin.

    nk (1d9030)

  16. NJRob, That’s a lie. I hope you don’t lie to people IRL about that.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  17. @18, @17, @16, @14, @12, @11;

    So, we stopped putting anything in a comment to let people know which comment you’re talking about? Did I miss a memo?

    I feel like we’re one or two threads away from generic salutations?

    Dear Sir and/or Madam,

    You are completely wrong in 2 of the 5 points that you did not include in your comment but I read in based on the political views I believe you hold. I will not tell you which 2.

    Thank you,
    someone who comments on things

    frosty (f27e97)

  18. What is Time? Are you denying the reporting in VAERS?

    NJRob (402c27)

  19. Now do reporting on infections and deaths of individuals under 18 from COVID.

    I’ll wait.

    NJRob (402c27)

  20. Data inVAERS doesn’t disprove the efficacy of the vaccine.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  21. I didn’t say it did. I am questioning the death rate according to VAERS.

    NJRob (402c27)

  22. 9-How long do you stay in your trance?

    mg (8cbc69)

  23. “The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) surprised even many of its harshest critics this week when it strongly defended coercive programs and other mandates from the state in the name of fighting COVID. “Far from compromising them, vaccine mandates actually further civil liberties,” its Twitter account announced, adding that “vaccine requirements also safeguard those whose work involves regular exposure to the public.”

    If you were surprised to see the ACLU heralding the civil liberties imperatives of “vaccine mandates” and “vaccine requirements” — whereby the government coerces adults to inject medicine into their own bodies that they do not want — the New York Times op-ed which the group promoted, written by two of its senior lawyers, was even more extreme. The article begins with this rhetorical question: “Do vaccine mandates violate civil liberties?” Noting that “some who have refused vaccination claim as much,” the ACLU lawyers say: “we disagree.” The op-ed then examines various civil liberties objections to mandates and state coercion — little things like, you know, bodily autonomy and freedom to choose — and the ACLU officials then invoke one authoritarian cliche after the next (“these rights are not absolute”) to sweep aside such civil liberties concerns

    What makes the ACLU’s position so remarkable — besides the inherent shock of a civil liberties organization championing state mandates overriding individual choice — is that, very recently, the same group warned of the grave dangers of the very mindset it is now pushing. In 2008, the ACLU published a comprehensive report on pandemics which had one primary purpose: to denounce as dangerous and unnecessary attempts by the state to mandate, coerce, and control in the name of protecting the public from pandemics.

    The title of the ACLU report, resurfaced by David Shane, reveals its primary point: “Pandemic Preparedness: The Need for a Public Health – Not a Law Enforcement/National Security – Approach.” To read this report is to feel that one is reading the anti-ACLU — or at least the actual ACLU prior to its Trump-era transformation. From start to finish, it reads as a warning of the perils of precisely the mindset which today’s ACLU is now advocating for COVID.

    In 2008, the group explained its purpose this way: “the following report examines the relationship between civil liberties and public health in contemporary U.S. pandemic planning and makes a series of recommendations for developing a more effective, civil liberties-friendly approach.” Its key warning: “Not all public health interventions have been benign or beneficial, however. Too often, fears aroused by disease and epidemics have encouraged abuses of state power. Atrocities, large and small, have been committed in the name of protecting the public’s health.”“

    https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-aclu-prior-to-covid-denounced

    Obudman (cb4106)

  24. Sorry I misunderstood your comment. Apologize for calling it a lie. What does VAERS show?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  25. @5 nk, cuz there’s no better way to combat vaccine misinformation than with partisan political misinformation

    The AP, however, went on to acknowledge that “it’s not unusual for hedge funds to have a wide range of investments. And BlackRock, which has primarily donated to Democratic candidates, though has also donated substantially to Republicans, has a large holding in the company – more so than Citadel.”

    JF (a217ed)

  26. Is anybody asking why this bug is acting so differently compared to 1918 Spanish flu?
    Or others types of viri?

    Joe (2c48e6)

  27. VAERS shows reporting on side effects and deaths from vaccines.

    NJRob (402c27)

  28. Data inVAERS doesn’t disprove the efficacy of the vaccine.

    The calendar does. Too many boosters.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  29. @29. Do you have anything specific?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  30. @30 see the link in comment 11.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  31. JF, at the most, all that means is that we should also look at other politicians who are doing what DeSantis is doing: Fighting vaccination and promoting Regeneron while taking millions from Regeneron investors. What difference does it make if they are Republican or Democrat or whether their donors know lots of other ways to make money?

    nk (1d9030)

  32. NK, for some people that makes /all/ the difference.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  33. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/7/2021 @ 5:29 pm

    Data in VAERS doesn’t disprove the efficacy of the vaccine.

    VAERS does not track vaccine efficacy. The data there neither proves nor disproves efficacy. I don’t think it can be used to directly track effectiveness either but that is a different issue.

    frosty (f27e97)

  34. > VAERS shows reporting on side effects and deaths from vaccines.

    not quite. It shows reporting on adverse events which happen *after* vaccines. There is no causal element required to be demonstrated.

    Healthcare providers are strongly encouraged to report:

    > Any adverse event that occurs after the administration of a vaccine licensed in the United States, whether it is or is not clear that a vaccine caused the adverse event.

    Furthermore, it includes things like:

    > 60 year old, immunosuppressed man, who developed Covid-19 pneumonia approximately 3 months after receiving the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.

    or like this:

    > When I am in the heat for an hour or so: Vertigo, disequilibrium, presyncope, and lightheadedness.

    both of which seem… expected.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  35. aphrael (4c4719) — 9/7/2021 @ 6:17 pm

    VAERS doesn’t seem very useful for its intended purpose. It certainly doesn’t seem useful for either side of the debate about whether the COVID vaccines are safe.

    frosty (f27e97)

  36. @33 yeah nk, maybe desantis should give back his emmy

    these smears have a target audience and they found it

    JF (a217ed)

  37. Guys, vaccines does help.

    If you get a breakthrough infection, you’re still better off as the vaccine helped your immune system from even more severe symptoms and hospitalization.

    Missouri has already peaked in early August and we’re trending downward now.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  38. @33 yeah nk, maybe desantis should give back his emmy

    Yeah, I think that DeSantis is Cuomo fleecing a different flock under the (R) label instead of the (D) label.

    nk (1d9030)

  39. @39, whembly, yes and breakthrough infections happen at a much lower rate then being unvaccinated.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  40. @ frosty (f27e97) — 9/7/2021 @ 6:21 pm

    I don’t understand the intended use case well enough to know if it’s useful for the intended purpose. I could see data mining to see trends and comparing against other similarly used vaccines, for example.

    But right now the whole thing, for covid, is a f***tonne of noise and not very much signal.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  41. Aphrael, you should try the NHTSA data base some time. It’s bad and doesn’t even have the political kooks driving dim witted conspiracy theories.

    Time123 (9f42ee)


  42. Idaho hospitals begin rationing health care amid COVID surge

    ……..
    The Idaho Department of Health and Welfare quietly enacted the move Monday and publicly announced it in a statement Tuesday morning — warning residents that they may not get the care they would normally expect if they need to be hospitalized.
    ………
    The state health agency cited “a severe shortage of staffing and available beds in the northern area of the state caused by a massive increase in patients with COVID-19 who require hospitalization.”
    ………
    The move allows hospitals to allot scarce resources like intensive care unit rooms to patients most likely to survive and make other dramatic changes to the way they treat patients. Other patients will still receive care, but they may be placed in hospital classrooms or conference rooms rather than traditional hospital rooms or go without some life-saving medical equipment.
    ………
    The unfolding crush of patients to Idaho hospitals has been anticipated with dread by the state’s heath care providers. Medical experts have said that Idaho could have as many as 30,000 new coronavirus cases a week by mid-September if the current rate of infections lasts.
    ……….
    The designation will remain in effect until there are enough resources — including staffing, hospital beds and equipment or a drop in the number of patients — to provide normal levels of treatment to all.

    More than 500 people were hospitalized statewide with COVID-19 on Sept. 1 and more than a third of them were in intensive care unit beds.
    ………..
    Under the guidelines, patients are given priority scores based on a number of factors that impact their likelihood of surviving a health crisis.

    Those deemed in most in need of care and most likely to benefit from it are put on priority lists for scarce resources like ICU beds.

    Others in dire need but with lower chances of surviving will be given “comfort care” to help keep them pain-free whether they succumb to their illnesses or recover.

    Other patients with serious but not life-threatening medical problems will face delays in receiving care until resources are available.
    ……..
    The demand on hospitals is likely to increase in coming weeks as case numbers continue to climb, (Idaho Department of Health and Welfare Director Dave Jeppesen) said, so everyone should take steps to avoid needing any emergency care if possible by wearing seatbelts, taking medication as prescribed and reconsidering activities like riding bikes that can lead to accidents.
    ………

    “More Idahoans need to choose to receive the vaccine so we can minimize the spread of the disease and reduce the number of COVID-19 hospitalizations, many of which involve younger Idahoans and are preventable with safe and effective vaccines,” said (Governor Brad) Little, who is a Republican.

    Idaho’s vaccination rate is 40%.

    Rip Murdock (0aa613)

  43. Rip, this is sad, frustrating, and easily preventable.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  44. Aphrael,

    That reporting is no different that COVID deaths that were reported after gunshots, car accidents and others.

    NJRob (ac5ba0)

  45. NJRob, check out the report from Oklahoma. Pretty clear that deaths from covid aren’t made up.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  46. I didn’t say they were. I said there are outliers that shouldn’t be counted but are. If he’s going to point out one from VAERS it’s easy to point out one’s that are counted incorrectly as COVID.

    NJRob (ac5ba0)

  47. No way. I have antibodies.

    mg (8cbc69) — 9/7/2021 @ 3:31 pm

    Apparently antibodies don’t work for everybody.

    Rip Murdock (0aa613)

  48. “That reporting is no different that COVID deaths that were reported after gunshots, car accidents and others.”

    Still clinging to the “with covid”/”of covid” argument.

    Davethulhu (5f5049)

  49. The current 7-day average for deaths from COVID in the US is about 1500. It has been rising steadily since the second week in July.

    The 7-day average is especially high in Florida, where it just hit 346. (Florida has a population of about 21.5 million, the US a population of about 333 million.)

    Those who pray may want to ask for higher help to inspire Governor DeSantis to change his policies.

    (Those who do not may want to contact DeSantis and point out to him that those policies are, more and more, looking like losers, politically.)

    Some may want to both pray and contact the governor, of course.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  50. Hawaii medical facilities given immunity in COVID surge
    The strain of surging COVID-19 cases has reached the point where Gov. David Ige has signed an executive order giving health care institutions immunity from liability if they ration care.

    Ige signed Executive Order No.21-06 (last) Wednesday. The new order comes after weeks of warnings from Hawaii health care facilities that their resources were dangerously diminished from the constant onslaught of COVID-19 cases.
    ……….
    ………. Hawaii’s health care facilities have not had to use the order, which would mean that Hawaii’s health care providers were too overwhelmed to provide normal care levels. At that point they would have to move to “crisis standards of care,” where some patients get turned away.
    ……..
    Lt. Gov. Josh Green told the Honolulu Star-Advertiser on Sunday, “Our daily cases counts are simply too high to sustain, and our hospital’s intensive care units are full because too many gatherings continue to occur, especially among the unvaccinated members of our state.”
    ……..
    According to the latest information from the department’s Hawaii COVID-19 Data dashboard, 448 patients with the virus were in Hawaii hospitals as of Friday, with 98 in intensive care units and 90 on ventilators.

    (Healthcare Association of Hawaii President and CEO Hilton Raethel) said about 85% of the people in the hospital are unvaccinated.

    “It’s the unvaccinated individuals in our hospitals who are creating this stress,” he said. “If we did not have all of those unvaccinated people in our hospitals, we wouldn’t be deploying tent systems, we wouldn’t be running short of oxygen, we wouldn’t be needing to bring in all of this staff.”
    ………
    Health officials say 63% of the state’s population is now fully vaccinated, and 72% has received at least one dose.
    >>>>>>>>

    Rip Murdock (0aa613)

  51. Reminder: Because so much disinformation on Western COVID vaccines comes from Putin’s pals, any discussion of problems with vaccines should say where their info comes from.

    (Here’s a start for those unfamiliar with the Russian campaign.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  52. #39 whembly – I hope other states learn from Missouri’s success.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  53. #50 That argument is especially odd, since “excess deaths” estimates show that, almost everywhere, COVID deaths have been undercounted. (Check out the IHME site for examples.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  54. Rip Murdock (0aa613) — 9/7/2021 @ 8:04 pm

    hospital’s intensive care units are full because too many gatherings continue to occur

    If HI has 63% fully/72% one dose and their still seeing that level of ICU utilization they should be thinking about more ICU space and encouraging people to lock down again. The marginal difference on more vaccinations at this point is small and won’t kick in soon enough.

    If we did not have all of those unvaccinated people in our hospitals

    Maybe. Or maybe there are more variables in play. If you factor in natural immunity they’re being overwhelmed by maybe 20% of their population? Maybe less?

    frosty (f27e97)

  55. @54

    #39 whembly – I hope other states learn from Missouri’s success.

    Jim Miller (edcec1) — 9/7/2021 @ 8:20 pm

    I’m not sure Missouri is doing anything different than states like Texas or Florida.

    This is going to be an endemic phase where regions will be going through cycles (peaks and troughs) depending on how transit the regional population is (ie, Florida is a destination state) and how much of the population is staying indoors. (it’s miserable in the midwest/south in summer) We know now that covid spreads primarily indoors and delta is highly infectious (but not as deadly as alpha variant).

    I wouldn’t be surprised when much of the north start seeing the same rates of cases/death the south experience when the cold drives folks indoors more.

    You sorta see this pattern, even in Hawaii (destination state, and folks stay indoors during lockdown) and in the Northwest, which is experiencing abnormal high summmer heatwaves.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  56. Jim Miller,

    Care to explain Oregon’s current numbers then?

    NJRob (ac5ba0)

  57. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 9/7/2021 @ 8:09 pm

    Reminder: if you’re not repeating the official narrative you’re a Putin accomplice.

    Also Reminder: this didn’t come from China.

    frosty (f27e97)

  58. Everybody is chasing a fairy. A virus has no politics. Nature is not a referee. It simply doesn’t care.
    Focus on the creators of the man-made abomination and call them in for justice.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  59. Paying your taxes due, or not, is only about what works for you. It really doesn’t affect anyone else.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  60. VAERS shows nothing of the kind. It shows only REPORTS of post-hoc claims. “My 93yo granny got the shot then she died the next week. It must have been the shot.”

    But, fine, fight against the elitist monsters who are trying to put tracking chips in your brains.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  61. The more I read, pro and con tells me that the average IQ of Americans will be higher in 2025.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  62. You must be leaving to raise it.

    mg (8cbc69)

  63. Chuck, Nancy, mcconnell and joe cellar are more of a threat to my family than the tallyband.

    mg (8cbc69)

  64. Make that money, mg

    urbanleftbehind (4f50cb)

  65. RIP@52,

    Here’s what i could find about breakthrough cases in Hawaii. I really wish all states were reporting this as well as OK did.

    Again, it look like most of the problem (~90%) is among the unvaccinated, but better data would be helpful. We really need to get vaccination rates up.

    https://www.khon2.com/coronavirus/covid-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-in-hawaii-spiked-since-july/

    “The good news is that the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines in preventing severe infection, including hospitalization and death, remains robust, over 90% across multiple studies done around the U.S. and internationally,” Kemble said. “Vaccine continues to provide protection in the ways that matter most.”

    On one day last week, 13% of hospitalizations were breakthrough infections. But the state said 68 out of the 2,400 breakthroughs have ever been hospitalized, representing just 3% of breakthrough infections.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  66. Chuck, Nancy, mcconnell and joe cellar are more of a threat to my family than the tallyband.

    We’re just a variation of feudalism, mg. We accept bandits as our overlords so they won’t kill us. We sugarcoat it with that they protect us from other bandits. That’s the way the world is. What’re you gonna do?

    nk (1d9030)

  67. A friend of ours from Jacksonville got infected last Christmas and won’t take a vaccine because of her claim about “natural immunity”. But last week, she got her blood tested and learned that she zero Covid antibodies. However, she still won’t get a shot because of T-cells or Z-cells or something, not that she was tested for those or knew if they were in her blood or not and, if so, were doing their job. Sigh.
    Anyway, so many Christian friends of ours won’t get a jab because of their “freedom”, and freedom is scriptural because the Israelites sought freedom from the Egyptians and Christians are to seek freedom from sin. But the thing is, our pastor last Sunday talked about Christ and the top two commandments, which are more important than any other (from Matthew 22):

    36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

    37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Love your neighbor. Jesus threw that second one in there, unsolicited, and it’s higher on the list than the other nine and higher than anyone’s freedom, which hasn’t been infringed anyway. This isn’t about you or your rights, which is selfish, it’s about selflessly doing a good turn unto others.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  68. Paul, your minister sounds similar to mine.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  69. And people wonder why so many are having doubts about what is real.

    What is real in Israel is that, if you’re over 50, you’re 6.7 times more like to be hospitalized if you’re un-vaxxed. If you’re under 50, you’re 13 times more likely.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  70. I am questioning the death rate according to VAERS.

    The following is according to VAERS, Rob.

    Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths.

    Emphasis mine. The deaths reported to their system do not mean they’re caused by the vaccines. In the deaths investigated so far, the vaccines were not the linked to the reported deaths, except for some rare cases with J&J.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  71. @72 looks like the medical professionals handing out death by covid certificates aren’t the same handing out death by covid vaccine certificates

    JF (e1156d)

  72. Paul, thank you for the follow up. That’s a useful summary.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  73. A shoutout to all the humorously dependable wrongness-barnacles out there!

    Citing a report of Oklahoma emergency rooms so overwhelmed by ivermectin overdoses that gunshot victims were going untreated, MSNBC anchor Joy Ann Reid Sunday proposed sticking the swallowers of “horse paste” at the back of the line in order to prioritize the more deserving, “rather than allowing the ivermectin people” — she spoke the words as if holding a vile wriggling thing with tweezers — to “take up all the beds”.

    This was a network anchor despising a group of people so much that she itched to deny them medical care, not only despite having never met them, but despite the fact that they may not even exist. The “overwhelmed Oklahoma E.R.” tale later seemed to go sideways, the latest in a line of crackups by media lost in the throes of a moral panic.

    The tale of mobbed E.R.s originated with a September 1 print story in the Tulsa World, followed by a piece by Oklahoma City-based NBC affiliate KFOR. Both interviewed a Dr. Jason McElyea, who spoke in the KFOR piece of “gunshot victims having hard times getting to facilities.” Separately he spoke about both the overcrowding problem and of seeing ivermectin overdose cases, but we don’t actually hear him making the connection that it’s the “ivermectin people” causing the bed shortage. That was done by KFOR, whose chyron and tweet identically read, PATIENTS OVERDOSING ON IVERMECTIN BACKING UP HOSPITALS, AMBULANCES.

    The line spread the next day with a retweet by Rachel Maddow — the real patient zero of this mess — followed by tweet-pushes by MSNBC executive producer Lauren Peikoff, the Guardian, the Business Insider, the Daily Mail, Newsweek, the New York Daily News, Daily Kos, Occupy Democrats, Reid, moral mania all-star Kurt Eichenwald, the humorously dependable wrongness-barnacle Eoin Higgins, and of course my former employers at Rolling Stone. My old mag got most of the catcalls on social media, after adding a full written story that widened the scope beyond Oklahoma to note in a tsk-tsking tone that “even podcaster and anti-vaccine conspiracy theorist Joe Rogan bragged” of taking ivermectin.

    The original report would have been sensational enough, if true. McElyea told stories of backed-up ambulances, patients “in worse conditions than if they’d caught COVID,” and “scariest” of all, “people coming in with vision loss.” Nonetheless, in the game of Twitter telephone that led from KFOR to the Stone, details were magically added. Reid somehow knew the hated overdosers not only swallowed “horse paste” but had done so “instead of taking the vaccine.” Occupy Democrats knew for whom the horse-pasters voted, noting that “so many Trumpers are overdosing” that emergency rooms are full. MSNBC contributor Dr. Jason Johnson even speculated Oklahoma Senator Jim Inhofe was somehow profiteering from the misery:

    Wonder if Inhofe (R-OK) has any financial ties to ivermectin. Wouldn’t be the first time he appeared to have profited off #Covid-19…

    Things appeared to go south when the Stone put out an “update” with a statement from Oklahoma’s Northeastern Hospital System Sequoyah, which said Dr. McElyea “has not worked at our Sallisaw location in over 2 months,” and, worse, that “NHS Sequoyah has not treated any patients due to complications related to taking ivermectin,” which “includes not treating any patients for ivermectin overdose.” Of course that was only one hospital system, and it wasn’t clear if it was relevant to McElyea’s story. However, Rolling Stone then put out a second update noting that, “Rolling Stone has been unable to independently verify any such cases,” adding:

    The National Poison Data System states there were 459 reported cases of ivermectin overdose in the United States in August. Oklahoma-specific ivermectin overdose figures are not available, but the count is unlikely to be a significant factor in hospital bed availability in a state that, per the CDC, currently has a 7-day average of 1,528 Covid-19 hospitalizations.

    https://taibbi.substack.com/p/moral-majority-media-strikes-again-cd2

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  74. “looks like the medical professionals handing out death by covid certificates aren’t the same handing out death by covid vaccine certificates”

    This is a bs talking point. If anything, covid deaths are underreported. The excess deaths statistics don’t care what was written on the certificate. In the first year of covid, there were around 600,000 excess deaths.

    Davethulhu (5f5049)

  75. Dave, at this point the people pushing the BS either know it’s BS or aren’t smart enough to understand excess deaths.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  76. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 9/8/2021 @ 7:07 am

    last Christmas and won’t take a vaccine because of her claim about “natural immunity”. But last week, she got her blood tested and learned that she zero Covid antibodies.

    That sounds about right. You don’t continually produce all of the antibodies for all of the things you’ve ever encountered all of the time.

    T-cells or Z-cells or something

    So, basically, you think she’s stupid because you disagree with her about z-cells or something? I’m not sure if she knows what she’s talking about but it from what you’ve said here it doesn’t sound like you do.

    frosty (f27e97)

  77. 66-I’ll have to change my moniker to Super Human mg.

    mg (8cbc69)

  78. Care to explain Oregon’s current numbers then?

    Since Jim and I are from the same area in the PNW and not in NJ, I can explain Oregon.
    Oregon is Washington State, but with better ocean beaches. The area between Puget Sound and the Cascade Range is moderate to heavily progressive, and the rest of WA State is like Idaho. In Oregon, the Portland metro area is like our Puget Sound region, with pockets of progressivism in Salem and Eugene, and the rest of Oregon is like Idaho.
    Like with WA State, Oregon ranks in the mid-40s in cases per million and deaths per million. Also like WA State, they had an outbreak due to Delta and, this summer, it’s been a race between vaccinations and the variant, with the variant coming out ahead in recent weeks. The map in this link helps paint this picture. What also paints a picture is that 80% of the Covid deaths in the August surge were unvaccinated Oregonians.
    P.S. Speaking of Idaho, they’re 39.7% fully vaccinated and rationing healthcare. A high school chum of mine lives in Coeur d’Alene and he just came out with a Facebook video, talking about his 16 days in an ICU. He was coughing and wheezing while talking, but had just gotten off the oxygen tank, lamenting that he didn’t get vaxxed but will take the booster first chance.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  79. Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/8/2021 @ 8:38 am

    I think this exchange from the last open thread sums up the general concern about the truthfulness of any of the ivermectin claims.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/5/2021 @ 4:00 am

    Have you seen any news stories that tell you how many people are self medicating with ivermectin?

    frosty (f27e97) — 9/5/2021 @ 5:53 am

    Frosty, I haven’t. Don’t think it matters. We already have policies that people shouldn’t take animal medicine. If morons want to eat horse deworming paste rather then take medicine that will actually prevent or treat covid I don’t know that we need new policy. Just shake your head, hope for the best, or laugh at the village idiot. However you like.

    Time123 (224669) — 9/5/2021 @ 6:11 am

    Obviously, I added the emphasis.

    The ivermectin narrative serves the greater good of establishing that not taking the vaccine is what stupid people do and that taking the vaccine is what smart people do. Whether it’s actually true or happening at any scale is totally irrelevant.

    frosty (f27e97)

  80. So, basically, you think she’s stupid because you disagree with her about z-cells or something?

    No, frosty, but thanks again for trying to put your words in my mouth, and for your calling me an ignoramus.
    I think she’s behaving stupidly because she doesn’t even know if she has those cells, yet will still not take basic precautions. She’s not a stupid person.
    The NIH concluded that “optimal immunity to SARS-Cov-2 likely requires strong multivalent T-cell responses in addition to neutralizing antibodies and other responses to protect against current SARS-CoV-2 strains and emerging variants.”

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  81. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 9/8/2021 @ 7:07 am

    Love your neighbor. Jesus threw that second one in there, unsolicited, and it’s higher on the list than the other nine and higher than anyone’s freedom, which hasn’t been infringed anyway. This isn’t about you or your rights, which is selfish, it’s about selflessly doing a good turn unto others.

    That would enable anything that can be relabeled a good turn unto others. An interesting interpretation.

    What denomination is your pastor?

    frosty (f27e97)

  82. Frosty, I can’t speak for anyone but myself when i say that I don’t think people eating horse deworming paste has policy implication. I do think it’s funny and topical and that’s why I brought it up in the open thread. I’ve stated my reasons for bringing it up several times. Also, there’s good evidence that it’s happened; the poison control calls if nothing else.

    I would be happy to establish a narrative (whatever that means) that eating horse deworming paste is a dumb thing to do.

    I do think getting vaccinated is a smart decision for most people. YMMV

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  83. Frosty, also, I was specifically talking about hors. De-worming paste and not ivermectin produced for human consumption and taken under the care of a physician.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  84. For all the people with concerns, questions, worries about narratives, etc no one is presenting arguments with data that the vaccine doesn’t work or shouldn’t be taken for some specific reason.

    All the arguments are 1 step removed from that; Just asking questions, critique of arguments for the vaccine, vague assertions, very strong concerns about tangential issues, unclear concerns about data etc.

    I don’t know what the ‘so what’ of that observation is. But I felt like stating it.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  85. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 9/8/2021 @ 9:45 am

    No, frosty, but thanks again for trying to put your words in my mouth, and for your calling me an ignoramus.

    For that NIH quote; do you think it means a) someone has to have neutralizing antibodies prior to encountering SARS-Cov-2 or b) their immune system has to be able to produce them as a response to SARS-Cov-2?

    Follow up question; what do you think the word response means in that context, i.e. “strong multivalent T-cell responses” and “neutralizing antibodies and other responses“.

    she doesn’t even know if she has those cells

    You said she had COVID correct? Is there any reason to think she wouldn’t have T and B cells or the ability to produce the antibodies? Do you know which test she took? They all aren’t testing the same thing.

    frosty (f27e97)

  86. people, the horse deworming paste needs to be combined with urinal cakes to really work

    JF (e1156d)

  87. frosty (f27e97) — 9/8/2021 @ 9:36 am

    Sounds like he may be in the wrong line of work. He could be clownin’ right alongside Joy Reid reaching an audience in the thousands…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  88. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/8/2021 @ 10:07 am

    When I pointed out that you were playing the meta-game before you said you weren’t. But here you are “just making an observation” and “vague assertions” about what other people really mean. I could point out where you’re all about the data on the one hand and not really concerned about the numbers on the other but it’d just make you defensive and it’d be tangential.

    That being said; given that there is no other conversation about COVID than we need 100% vaccination and magic happens I don’t expect much. And yes, I fully expect someone to say “I didn’t say 100% we just need everyone to do it and I’d give a pass to people with exceptions I approve of”.

    It should be common sense that vaccination at whatever level won’t accomplish “back to normal” but that is anti-vax. That you can catch and transmit COVID after the vaccine was labeled impossible and anti-vax by commentators here. It’s still anti-vax even though “the narrative” changed when it became obvious that it was possible. Saying the vaccine is less effective against delta is anti-vax even though we’ve got the data for that. Saying the vaccine was more of a therapeutic treatment than a traditional vaccine is also anti-vax even though the CDC changed the definition and said basically the same thing.

    Saying anything other than “get the vaccine” is anti-vax because of “the narrative”. The reason you see a lot about “the narrative” is because that is the only real conversation.

    The reason you see a lot of “critique of arguments” is because there are a lot of really bad arguments being floated.

    frosty (f27e97)

  89. When I pointed out that you were playing the meta-game before you said you weren’t.

    I’m not. I honestly don’t think idiots taking horse meds is a meaningful policy issue. I did think it’s funny and shared it because of that. When I think things are a meaningful policy issue I am all about the data.

    You can tell the difference because on horse meds I was just cracking jokes and wasn’t very interested in any of the other aspects of it, like its origen, scope, or if ivermectin has use as a therapeutic. On things i think are important to policy I try to find good data, quote from and link to it, and support my assertions from that.

    Hope that clears up the conflict for you.

    I don’t think your characterization of what’s called anti-vax is very accurate. But your response does make me think.

    At the risk of getting meta again, your response in 90 was much more interesting and gave me more to think about then the ones where you ask a series of leading questions. Thank you for writing it.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  90. History shows us that some human diseases disappear on their own, even when the only effective measure we had against them was quarantine. (Examples: The “English Sweat” and the 1918 flu epidemic)

    Experience with smallpox and polio has shown that it is possible, with modern medicine, to eliminate viral diseases. (Wild polio would now be eliminated world wide, were it not for the opposition of a few fanatical Muslim leaders.)

    Simple mathematics shows us that, if we get the transmission rate down far enough (R0 below 1), human-transmitted diseases eventually die out. We now know at least five ways to reduce the rate with COVID: From easiest to hardest, they are: mask wearing, vaccinations, better ventilation in buildings, restrictions on gatherings, especially indoors, and herd immunity, letting the virus run through the population and eventually burn itself out.

    (We may also be able to reduce the rate of transmission with prophylactic treatments of antibodies from Regeneron and similar companies.)

    If there were a large animal reservoir, then it is likely we would have to settle for reducing the prevalence of the disease, and having occasional outbreaks, but, as far as I know, there is no significant animal reservoir.

    So I am tentatively hopeful, long-term, that we can eliminate COVID. If we work together.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  91. frosty – I’d like you to do all of us a favor: Make a positive argument. Tell us what you think we should be doing to combat COVID, now. (In my comment #92, I outlined, in a very general way, what I think we should be doing, now. And I now notice that I should have added stricter border controls, for us, and other nations.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  92. Vaccines, with rare exceptions, do no cure a disease, although a few do. They skew the severity tiers where no symptoms is roughly 10x more likely than non vaccinated, mild disease…there is a 50%-90% less likely outcome of disease escalation to the next tier, and ultimately death.

    That’s true for nearly all vaccines, its’ especially true for Pfizer/Moderna for about 8 months based on early US/Israel/UK results. I was kind of hoping for the booster to be modified including coverage of new strains as that identification process is fairly fast, and the programming of production is fairly simple, but we’re still in a situation where 75M American’s who have easy access to 2-10 doses just won’t get it, and some number around half of 7B have zero access to even the marginally worse-to much worse performing Sino/Russo/AZ/J&J version, which still work pretty well, equal to normal flu vaccination levels at least, and most are single dose, so 60% single dose is pretty close to single dose Pfizer/Moderna, and none of them have the cold chain requirements

    I always like listening to experts that communicate complicated things simply (frankly this isn’t complicated) but I get my daily dose of Covid global reality checks from Dr. John Campbell.

    There can be no rational argument that if you want to return to 2019 activity levels, the political anti-vaxxers need to either be convinced, bribed, or mandated to protect the community. Especially when those under 12 are now rapantly getting infected, and passing it on. In the meantime, mask up the kids, it’s simple, it works pretty well, and try to understand that freedom in a society doesn’t mean that it’s only you’re freedom that counts.

    This country would be in such a better situation if the 25th amendment had been used in 2018 or 2019, heck, I could see a possibility of a Pence/Haley White House taking Covid seriously, and getting re-elected in 2020. Alas, that didn’t happen, so masks and horse paste, injecting bleach, became actual topics, instead of what is the most efficient gap in Vaccine doses, the UK looks like they lucked into a pretty optimal 10ish weeks, and whether 25% less likelihood of infection/spreading by wearing a mask was taking away some imagined freedom to infect.

    But it’s always been hard to argue with stupid, and it’s weird how this particular group of stupid has coalesced around a particularly stupid form of idolatry. Down with expertise and evidence, up with morons and conspiracy. Weird.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  93. People like Klink need to be retired.

    mg (8cbc69)

  94. D.C. jen left the podium when asked about Fraudchi and his poisoning of the world.

    mg (8cbc69)

  95. People like Klink need to be retired.
    Nice, but what does this clever statement mean? Does it have an opinion on vaccination, what is it?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  96. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 9/8/2021 @ 1:17 pm

    I hate to disappoint you but I don’t think I can make the argument you want me to make. I would agree with stricter border controls. I would agree with better ventilation in buildings. I’m glad we’ve got a vaccine but I don’t think it is a silver bullet.

    We aren’t near an R0 less than one. That’s obvious from the current case stats. Herd immunity isn’t a way to “get” R0 less than 1. This is a misunderstanding of what R0 is.

    I understand what you are trying to say. Basically, stop the transmission and the virus goes away. I’ve tried this R0 discussion with you already but you’ve got cause and effect firmly swapped around in some of these comments. Let’s try this:

    In epidemiology, the basic reproduction number, or basic reproductive number (sometimes called basic reproduction ratio or incorrectly[1] basic reproductive rate), denoted {\displaystyle R_{0}}R_{0} (pronounced R nought or R zero),[2] of an infection is the expected number of cases directly generated by one case in a population where all individuals are susceptible to infection.[3] The definition assumes that no other individuals are infected or immunized (naturally or through vaccination).

    and before I forget

    R_{0} is not a biological constant for a pathogen as it is also affected by other factors such as environmental conditions and the behaviour of the infected population. {\displaystyle R_{0}}R_{0} values are usually estimated from mathematical models, and the estimated values are dependent on the model used and values of other parameters. Thus values given in the literature only make sense in the given context and it is recommended not to use obsolete values or compare values based on different models.[8] {\displaystyle R_{0}}R_{0} does not by itself give an estimate of how fast an infection spreads in the population.

    At this point, we’re mixing up all sorts of things trying to use an R0 based on current data and we need to be careful to sort that out.

    Shifting gears.

    My understanding is that SARS-COV-2 is in a family of viruses that we won’t get rid of. We didn’t get rid of the Spanish Flu in the literal sense. The Spanish Flu is a variant H1N1 influenza A virus. We still have those. I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that Spanish Flu was a multipeak outbreak. Polio is a very different type of virus. It doesn’t follow that because we dealt with Polio we can wipe out COVID. We’ve already started dealing with new variants of SARS-COV-2. It can mutate faster than we can wipe it out.

    From everything I can tell it is likely we would have to settle for reducing the prevalence of the disease and having occasional outbreaks. I believe the large animal reservoir you’re not seeing is walking around on two legs. I think it was a mistake to tell people to get the vaccine and everything would go back to normal. It won’t. People should still be encouraged to wear masks and social distance.

    Over time the severity of different strains will be less if it follows the history of similar viruses.

    In the meantime, I’d like to not destroy civil liberties and fundamental freedoms in the vain hope of eliminating COVID.

    Like I said, I don’t think this is the argument you wanted. I’m guessing you either want me to say it’s not a serious issue and can be ignored or agree with you that Something Must Be Done to Fix This ™(c).

    I think COVID is a serious issue. It can’t be ignored. We can mitigate it. We can try to keep the damage in lives, to society, and to our economy to a minimum. But it also can’t be fixed in the way you are suggesting and some of the suggestions I’ve heard will actually cause more damage over the short and long term.

    frosty (f27e97)

  97. frosty (f27e97) — 9/8/2021 @ 11:03 am

    I appreciate your comment, and found it a worthwhile read, and make good, thought-provoking points; thank you for making it. Jim Miller asks of you to make your plan, of dealing with covid, known to us. This is a worthwhile endeavor, not just for you, but for all of our commenters who have not yet opined their own course of action.

    I will start:

    In addition to what has already been put into action, I would, as Surgeon General use my office to promote the freedom of Medical practitioners, that they may, unpressured, practice medicine, urging them to use their close relationships with their patients to find acceptable, effective, alternates to vaccines that so many are refusing to take; with the goal of moving the hesitant a step closer to vaccination.

    If I were POTUS, I would sign an EO that reigns in the CDC from exerting political pressure on the medical community, or to coerce the adoption of an “approved” regimen in regard to fighting covid.

    If I owned a media group, I would, for my properties, require more reporting from the goings on in other countries, particularly, India. This is just off of the top of my head.

    felipe (484255)

  98. People like Klink need to be retired.
    mg (8cbc69) — 9/8/2021 @ 1:59 pm

    He is retired, I believe, mg. I, also check in with Dr. Campbell for his sane reporting and updates.

    felipe (484255)

  99. Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 9/8/2021 @ 2:22 pm

    He was making a jest about your omitting the “(ret)” from your handle, just as I was being droll about it to him.

    felipe (484255)

  100. D.C. jen left the podium when asked about Fraudchi and his poisoning of the world.
    mg (8cbc69) — 9/8/2021 @ 2:03 pm

    Leaving the podium: It’s not just for (p)residents anymore!

    felipe (484255)

  101. Colonel Haiku! Can I interest you in giving us your lyrical plan to fight covid (possibly set to this tune)?

    felipe (484255)

  102. 97- Any person who thinks they know what is best for me can retire. And pound sand. Blaming Trump for voting worse than Trump takes a special education. Lowest Point, perhaps?

    mg (8cbc69)

  103. mg (8cbc69) — 9/8/2021 @ 3:03 pm

    well, I stand corrected! mg was not kidding around.

    felipe (484255)

  104. #98 Frosty – No, that’s actually most of what I was hoping for. As far as I can tell, you and I would agree on about 70-80 percent of the practical measures we should take against our virus enemy.

    And I don’t know what disagreements we have, if any, on civil liberties — as they have been interpreted by our courts over the years. (Although I would be opposed, for now, to mandatory vaccinations of whole populations, even though there was a court decision supporting that.)

    Now, three details: Since people can be re-infected by the virus, or can be infected even after they have been vaccinated, I think using R0 in the casual way I did was appropriate, but I will call it the transmission rate, if you prefer.

    The transmission rate declined from January until late June in the United States, as you can see from both the decline in cases and, a few weeks later, in deaths.

    For this to happen, each American who had the disease must have been infecting, on the average, less than one other American. If that had continued, the disease would have become, perhaps by spring of next year, a minor problem.

    As, for example, measles is.

    Second, we now have far more tools to fight viruses than in the time of Edward Jenner or even Jonas Salk. And that is why I am hopeful, I repeat, tentatively.

    Third, according to the Worldometer numbers, the total cases, world wide, has begun to decline — which means the virus will have fewer opportunities to mutate. The numbers haven’t declined enough so that we should break out the champagne, but I think a faint, hopeful, smile might be appropriate.

    (I find it helpful to use personal probability in a casual way to describe how strongly I believe something. So, in place of “tentatively”, I’ll put it this way: I believe with 80 percent confidence that COVID will be at most a minor problem in the United States, like measles, by July of 2023. If I understand you correctly, you believe that chance is lower than 5 percent. Please correct me, if I am wrong.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  105. If I Were King of the Forest COVID

    If I were King of teh COVID
    Not prince, not duke, not Prez
    The regal crown on my bald lid
    Would be stately, not gaudy, not fez

    I’d demand each subject, be they damsel or dude
    Eat teh paste, a moon pie and then dance in the nude
    As I’d click my heels, all the Millers would kneel!
    And the AJs bow and the scheisters kowtow!
    And the lefties would take wing
    If I… IF I were King!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  106. LOL! Brilliant, Colonel! You never fail.

    felipe (484255)

  107. What denomination is your pastor?

    Baptist. This is not fringe stuff.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  108. For that NIH quote; do you think it means a) someone has to have neutralizing antibodies prior to encountering SARS-Cov-2 or b) their immune system has to be able to produce them as a response to SARS-Cov-2?

    I think the quote speaks for itself, frosty. It would be beneficial if there were more testing for T-cells.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  109.     🍻col.

    mg (8cbc69)

  110. Thanks, felipe!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  111.   col. –   🍻

    mg (8cbc69)

  112. The article is as selective as can be with the photo, considering that baseball stadiums have been filled all summer long and the complaints haven’t rolled in.

    Al Kuhseltsur (ea6f05)

  113. @114, there wasn’t a sharp increase in deaths from Covid all summer long. Context changes things.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  114. @107. One of your best, Colonel.

    Beau-tiful. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  115. DeSantis and his administration is leading the way for regeneron treatements.

    Not only there are multiple clinics folks can get it for free… his administration worked with health agencies to empower FIREFIGHTERS and EMT to actually come to your house to administer the monoclonal antibodies!

    That’s… brilliant.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  116. Klink has the same attitude towards hard working, tax paying Americans as Jonathan Gruber.

    mg (8cbc69)

  117. Hey… thx, mg. Back atcha!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  118. And you, as well, DCSCA!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  119. Will they track me down and put me in a colony of novaxed, on Molokai?

    mg (8cbc69)

  120. A person of your importance, mg? Never! You are far too formidable a threat. A battalion of Special Forces troops (not a mere SEAL team) will be dispatched to capture you and transport you to the CIA’s ultra-maximum security fortress and prison a mile below the surface of Antarctica.

    nk (1d9030)

  121. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 9/8/2021 @ 3:52 pm

    I believe with 80 percent confidence that COVID will be at most a minor problem in the United States, like measles, by July of 2023. If I understand you correctly, you believe that chance is lower than 5 percent. Please correct me, if I am wrong.)

    I wouldn’t put a number on it but I expect COVID to be a minor problem by 2023. I think we have different ideas about why it will be a minor issue.

    That’s why I’m against some of the measures I’m seeing that won’t go away or be a minor issue in 2023 if we keep going the route we’re going.

    frosty (f27e97)

  122. (continued from #122)
    …whilst draining his antibody-rich blood for both personal and commercial use, no DeSantis Regeneron giveaway BS. I don’t even want to get into if and when they start bringing the antibody elite into close quaryer experimentation.

    urbanleftbehind (61ddf3)

  123. 5. nk (1d9030) — 9/7/2021 @ 3:47 pm

    How will DeSantis’s top donor make money from Regeneron if nobody catches Covid?

    Regeneron antibodies can also be used as a preventative instead of a vaccine (but for that use will need to be taken approximately every 3-6 months) It can now be injected instead of requiring an IV

    https://www.regeneron.com/covid19

    But Pfizer is working the system, and may get FDA approval next year for an antiviral as prevention, taken as a pill:

    https://www.covidpillstudy.com

    https://trialsitenews.com/pfizers-phase-2-3-covid-pill-study-reveals-potential-antiviral-treatment-pf-07321332-under-investigation

    The race is on for the clinical development of the “COVID-19 pill,” an orally administered antiviral medication for early treatment that primary care providers have screamed about for over 1.5 years now. While generic repurposed drugs show mixed results, the overall ledger of ivermectin studies weighs in the positive zone.

    But it doesn’t pay to finance a study about it because you can;t patent it.

    Groups such as the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) closely monitor the investigational pharmaceutical products working their way down the pipeline. At least in America and much of the world, a vaccine-centric strategy pulled overwhelming public subsidy, but >b> the challenge is that the vaccines don’t stop transmission. That’s become apparent with the delta variant, where the number of breakthrough infections leading to hospitalization now mounts in heavily vaccinated nations like Israel. Pfizer recently was active on Facebook, essentially advertising their orally administered, potent protease inhibitor, evidencing antiviral activity against SARS-CoV-2. As it turns out, these studies focus on patients with more risk and include a combined treatment with Ritonavir. The goal: inhibit disease progression and care for the patient at home.

    The number or seriousness of breakthrough infections is exaggerated, because the highly sensitive PCR test detects even defeated infections.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  124. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/memorial-to-13-lost-service-members-defaced

    Hateful terroristic attack by someone who clearly wants American ideals to die.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  125. 55. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 9/7/2021 @ 8:27 pm

    “excess deaths” estimates show that, almost everywhere, COVID deaths have been undercounted.

    They’ve been both under-counted and over-counted. Overall cases and deaths have been under-counted. Some heart attack deaths are really caused by Covid, for example (it causes blood clotting.)

    But deaths specifically attributable to Covid have been over-enumerated. Some don’t belong.

    The under-counting factor is much larger than the over-counting.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  126. Jim Miller, Over the last week Florida has averaged 335 daily deaths from covid (https://covidactnow.org/us/florida-fl/). There’s spot evidence that this isn’t being driven by breakthrough cases (https://www.orlandosentinel.com/coronavirus/os-ne-coronavirus-covid-breakthrough-cases-20210806-bltyrooqkbgl7foljt2rwqltzm-story.html). Florida is about 53% vaccinated but i haven’t seen data on how that breaks down by age. I want to know if how may of the deaths are breakthrough and how many are unvaccinated.

    If the spikes in death for FL and TX are being driven by unvaccinated people I’d push vaccination. I wouldn’t criminalize being unvaccinated but I’d encourage business to require it, mandate it for public employees, and mandate it for being physically present at government buildings where that rule didn’t violate people’s right to due process.

    If the data holds in FL as for other state a high rate of vaccination would drop the deaths from 335 a day to less then 35 a day. At that level I think we’d see a move back to normal society, which is what we all want. My evidence for this is the responses I saw in the spring after vacccines had been available for a while. Not among the chattering class but what people were actually doing. Things opened up, people relaxed, where i live it when back to pretty much normal. Business said they’d be asking more people to come back live if they were vaccinated and drop masking requirements for vaccinated employees. The local schools district communicated that they expected to be back live in the fall without masks but the final decision would depend on the situation in Aug. We’re back live with masks and a some social distancing. So I expect their would be some noise and partisans would find a way to stake out opposing positions but I expect that would be transient.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  127. I wouldn’t put a number on it but I expect COVID to be a minor problem by 2023. I think we have different ideas about why it will be a minor issue.

    You thinking people will just accept a high rate of death as a fact of life at that point or do you think it will be fixed somehow? If so how?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  128. Jim, Wanted to add that I’d highlight the impact on hospitalization and death of the vaccine. Make it very clear to to the public how much being vaccinated improved outcomes.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  129. @126, I thought those Westborro clowns had found some new way to be awful? You think they’re back or is this a different set of losers?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  130. 13-year olds who can’t break the fender aerials off of cars anymore, and can’t steal Halloween garden decorations for another month.

    nk (1d9030)

  131. Their parents, whoever and wherever they are, are probably unvaccinated, too.

    nk (1d9030)

  132. “If the data holds in FL as for other state a high rate of vaccination would drop the deaths from 335 a day to less then 35 a day. At that level I think we’d see a move back to normal society, which is what we all want. My evidence for this is the responses I saw in the spring after vacccines had been available for a while.”

    Your evidence has weak justification. Covid, like the flu, is a SEASONAL indoor virus, spiking during cold winters and hot summers when people…stay inside and inactive a lot.

    “Not among the chattering class but what people were actually doing. Things opened up, people relaxed, where i live it when back to pretty much normal.”

    “Pleasant springtime weather had a low incidence of respiratory viruses and higher instance of people out and about and state reps wanted to capitalize on that.”

    “Business said they’d be asking more people to come back live if they were vaccinated and drop masking requirements for vaccinated employees. The local schools district communicated that they expected to be back live in the fall without masks but the final decision would depend on the situation in Aug.”

    Institutions taking orders from the government on how to run themselves instead of from the people who patronize them.

    “We’re back live with masks and a some social distancing. So I expect their would be some noise and partisans would find a way to stake out opposing positions but I expect that would be transient.”

    Cold weather means more respiratory viruses. Viruses mutate. We used to have flu vaccines every year. Now we have slightly-more-dangerous flu vaccines every year. More people have and will died from lockdown fatigue and the resultant economic slowdown than have ever died of Covid or flu. You will not consider these numbers pertient.

    I do not trust your constantly fudged numbers pushed by constantly fudging people built from constantly-fudged data. I have no obligations to your immature, fearful, childish society with an effective age of approximately two years. If slightly more old and fat people die of Covid to keep a proper society running, too bad for them, they should have exercised their bodies and immune systems to a stronger baseline in the years of prosperity. There is currently no effective long-term treatment for an endemic viral disease other than herd immunity. Everyone here blaming things on the “unvaccinated” or “not fully vaccinated” or “horse medicine lol” are either willfully ignorant or actively malicious and deserve savage public beatings and cruel social ostracism at minimum once normal people are in charge again.

    Pfizer shaman (0e55f9)

  133. “Business said they’d be asking more people to come back live if they were vaccinated and drop masking requirements for vaccinated employees. The local schools district communicated that they expected to be back live in the fall without masks but the final decision would depend on the situation in Aug.”

    Institutions taking orders from the government on how to run themselves instead of from the people who patronize them.

    Since this seemed to cause confusion; I was talking about business that weren’t generally open to the public like manufacturing, accounting, or product design companies. From late spring to mid summer ones I’m familiar with were increasing onsite work, relaxing travel restrictions, and allowing vaccinated employees to work without masks. Now that cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are spiking it’s been moving backwards.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  134. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/9/2021 @ 5:50 am

    Time will tell, but I expect it’s from the same batch of people that think it’s acceptable to wear a gorilla mask and throw eggs at a black political candidate because he’s a “blackface wearing white supremacist.”

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  135. Could be, I think NK has the most likely guess. But we’ll see.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  136. Another ivermectin study, another likely fraud.
    There are more trials in the pipeline but, so far, “it still hasn’t aced a trial”.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  137. Paul, i heard about this cool new drug that makes it really hard to catch covid and if you all but eliminates serious outcomes.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  138. Twitter threead (after a few links)

    https://twitter.com/GidMK/status/1419557553894137857

    Earlier there was this:

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.10.21255248v1.full

    This observational and retrospective cohort study, carried out in two medical centers, Centro Medico Bournigal (CMBO) in Puerto Plata and Centro Medico Punta Cana (CMPC) in Punta Cana, Dominican Republic, sought to determine whether Ivermectin, at a weekly oral (PO) dose of 0.2 mg/kg, is an effective pre-exposure prophylaxis (PrEP) method for the spread of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome-Corona Virus-2 (SARS-CoV-2), in the healthcare workers.

    The study began on June 29, 2020 and ended on July 26, 2020, where 713 active healthcare personnel were included for the analysis, of which 326 adhered to a weekly prophylactic program with Ivermectin for Coronavirus Disease-19 (COVID-19), designed by Grupo Rescue task force, that runs both medical centers, and 387 healthcare personnel who did not adhere to the program were assigned to the control group…

    …. In 28 days of follow-up, a significant protection of Ivermectin as a PrEP method of infection from SARS-CoV-2 was observed 1.8% compared to those who did not take it 6.2%, (p-value = 0.006) and a reduction of the risk of a positive Chain Reaction of Real-Time Polymerase Transcription (RT-PCR) COVID-19 test by 74% (HR 0.26, 95% CI [0.10,0.71]). These results support the use of weekly Ivermectin as a compassionate preventive method in the healthcare personnel.

    The protocol of this study is available at Clinicaltrials.gov Identifier: NCT04832945

    More:

    Kaplan-Meier risk analysis showed that the prevention with Ivermectin occurred after the second dose was received on day 8. This finding could suggest that to achieve a preventive dose of Ivermectin in the tissues, a second dose is needed (Figure 4).

    Thaat could be explained by the idea it only helps if it is already in the bloodstrean a initial exposure – i.e. it could strangle the infection in its cradle, but not later. Another just maybe possible explanation: that it’s a breakdown product of ivermectin produced by the liver that helps. But that shouldn’t be tied to a second dose.

    Also:

    Chahla and colleagues, in Tucuman Argentina, conducted a 1:1 randomized controlled study in healthcare workers for 4 weeks with a 2-week follow-up after completion of the study. They compared a group that was administered PrEP with Ivermectin PO 12mg weekly plus Iota-Carrageenan 6 nasal sprays daily, versus a control group which did not receive any medication. In the “Ivermectin-Carrageenan” group, 4 out of the 117 participants (3.4%) were infected with COVID-19, and in the control group 25 out of the 117 participants (21.4%) were infected. The difference between the two groups was statistically significant (p-value <0.05). The odd ratio (OR) was 0.13, this value transformed into relative risk (RR) becomes 84% less risk of contagion of SARS-CoV-2 in the “Ivermectin-Carrageenan” group in comparison with the control group. In the Ivermectin group the 4 patients had a mild infection and in the control group, in 15 patients the infection was mild, in 7 moderate and in 3 severe (5).

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  139. A Chinese sponsored video no epidemics that inserts just a little bit of propaganda in the beginning about most experts agreeing its source as natural, not one created in a lab. T

    They probably didn’t care what the rest of it said.

    This link picks up the video pretty laete 44 minutes iinto the 54:40 video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqlR7TZCy0Q&t=2622s

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  140. Video about how we need to worry about new epidemics.

    The Chinese government probably only cared about the very beginning (most listened to part) and the general thesis.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  141. Absurd claim: children under 12 need us to protect them from a disease that kills about one in a million.

    Reads CDC data (06c583)

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