Patterico's Pontifications

7/26/2021

Mandatory Covid-19 Vaccinations For Medical Personnel Is Becoming A Thing…A Good Thing

Filed under: General — Dana @ 9:49 am



[guest post by Dana]

Various health care groups have come out in support of mandatory Covid-19 vaccines for medical personnel:

Medical groups representing millions of doctors, nurses, pharmacists and other health workers on Monday called for mandatory vaccinations of all U.S. health personnel against the coronavirus, framing the move as a moral imperative as new infections mount sharply.

“We call for all health care and long-term care employers to require their employees to be vaccinated against covid-19,” the American Medical Association, the American Nurses Association and 55 other groups wrote in a joint statement shared with The Washington Post. “The health and safety of U.S. workers, families, communities, and the nation depends on it.”

The statement — issued by many groups urging a mandate for the first time — represents an increasingly tough stance by the medical and public health establishment amid the sluggish pace of national vaccinations. It comes as new cases rip through the nation, driven by the hyper-transmissible delta variant. Confirmed coronavirus infections have nearly quadrupled in July, from about 13,000 cases per day at the start of the month to more than 50,000 now, according to The Post’s tracking. Hospital leaders in states such as Alabama, Florida and Missouri have implored holdouts to get vaccinated, citing data that the shots prevent hospitalizations and even death.

Surprisingly, according to the report, many health care workers remain unvaccinated despite the availability of the vaccine:

More than 38 percent of nursing workers were not fully vaccinated as of July 11, despite caring for patients at elevated risk of the coronavirus, according to data collected by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services and analyzed by LeadingAge, which represents nonprofit nursing homes and other providers of elder care.

And then there is this:

An analysis by WebMD and Medscape Medical News estimated that 25 percent of hospital workers who had contact with patients had not been vaccinated by the end of May.

This seems like a no-brainer to me but given that we read this weekend that that only one in five of the nation’s more than 15,000 nursing homes were able to hit a goal…of vaccinating 75% of their staff by the end of June, apparently it isn’t a no-brainer. But when you are working with vulnerable populations, why would getting a Covid-19 vaccine not be mandatory?

The report spells out why there has not been a move to make the vaccine mandatory for medical personnel until now:

Health-care facilities generally have hesitated to mandate coronavirus vaccines for employees, noting that the vaccines have not yet received full approval from the Food and Drug Administration and citing the threat of lawsuits.

Also announcing mandatory Covid-19 vaccines today is NYC Mayor Bill DeBlasio:

All New York City municipal workers — including cops, firefighters and teachers — will have to get vaccinated or submit to weekly coronavirus tests under a new mandate that Mayor de Blasio is expected to announce Monday, according to a City Hall spokesman.

The new mandate — which will cover roughly 300,000 city workers — is set to take effect Sept. 13, the first day of the school year, the spokesman said…

Last week, de Blasio ordered all public hospital and health workers in the city to either get vaccinated or undergo weekly tests starting Aug. 2.

Expectedly, DeBlasio got some pushback from union leaders:

Henry Garrido, executive director of District Council 37 of AFSCME, said, “If City Hall intends to test our members weekly, they must first meet us at the table to bargain.”

Garrido, whose union represents about 100,000 New York City employees across several departments, said weekly testing is subject to mandatory bargaining.

“New York City is a union town and that cannot be ignored,” he said in a statement.

Vaccination rates in NYC remain stuck, with more than 40% of the population still unvaccinated.

A few tibits:

More than 161 million Americans, or 49.1% of the total population, are fully vaccinated, per data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The CDC said last week that 97% of people currently hospitalized for the virus are unvaccinated.
Officials have said that about 99% of people who died from the virus had not been vaccinated.

Less than 9% of hospitals have required employees to get vaccinated, according to the American Hospital Association, which announced last week it supports mandating vaccinations for health care workers.

GET VACCINATED ALREADY!

–Dana

139 Responses to “Mandatory Covid-19 Vaccinations For Medical Personnel Is Becoming A Thing…A Good Thing”

  1. Good morning.

    Dana (fd537d)

  2. I wonder what the mandated booster shot schedule will be?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  3. The CDC said last week that 97% of people currently hospitalized for the virus are unvaccinated.
    Officials have said that about 99% of people who died from the virus had not been vaccinated.

    Yeah… about that:

    In the last few weeks, politicians and senior public health officials have insisted over and over that unvaccinated Americans account for essentially ALL of the deaths of people from Covid.

    At a White House press briefing on July 22, for example, Surgeon General Vivek Murthy said that “99.5 percent of Covid deaths and 97 percent of hospitalizations are [emphasis added] among the unvaccinated.”

    Note that “are,” please. Are is PRESENT tense, something happening NOW.

    Murthy isn’t alone.

    On Independence Day, Dr. Anthony Fauci answered a question on Meet The Press about deaths IN JUNE by saying that “if you look at the number of deaths, 99.2 percent of them are unvaccinated. About 0.8 percent are vaccinated.”

    To be clear on the math here, Fauci’s answer would imply that only about 80 vaccinated people – 0.8 percent of 10,000 – died in June.

    These are – how do I put this delicately? – big fat stinking lies. They are off by a factor of at least five, and probably 10 or more.

    https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/here-we-go-again

    Details at the link.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  4. Claiming those that have recovered from the virus don’t have as good an immunity as those who take a RNA shot is not backed up by science.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  5. This is a more relevant thread so I will move this comment from the open thread to here:

    SAN DIEGO — Four San Diego County treatment centers have been busier lately as more residents test positive for COVID-19 and sick people try to avoid a more serious bout with the illness.

    The sites are called Monoclonal Antibody Regional Centers and they’re used to treat people with COVID who are at higher risk for a severe case. That includes people over 65, those with diabetes, kidney disease or high blood pressure, and those who are obese.

    “Amazing results are keeping people out of the hospital, giving them that immune system boost they need,” said Dr. Christian Ramers, an infectious disease specialist with Family Health Centers of San Diego.

    The treatment uses monoclonal antibodies — which are proteins made in a lab – that help boost the immune system to attack the virus. Dr. Ramers says the key is to act fast.

    “They have to get the treatment early. This really only works if its within the first ten days of symptoms. So that means people need to get tested early and get in touch with us as soon as they can,” the doctor explained.

    It’s a one-hour infusion, followed by a one-hour observation period — and it’s free.

    As cases dipped in May and June, so did demand for the treatment. But now its picking back up, as the county sees a “significant spike” in cases. The county reported 1,264 new coronavirus cases Friday afternoon, the highest number on a single day since Feb. 5.

    “We are actually quite busy. In fact, we’re scheduling out about two to three days at this point. We’re essentially reaching our capacity, which is a good thing. It’s an incredibly effective therapy,” Ramers said.

    Dr. Ramers says the therapy delivers a 75-85% reduction in the risk of hospitalization. And those who are already vaccinated but still have symptoms can still get the treatment.

    “We’re not using this for asymptomatic people at this point. And we know from in-vitro lab experiments, the combination we’re using, the Regeneron cocktail — is still very active against the delta variant. So it should work just fine,” Ramers explained

    https://fox5sandiego.com/news/covid-19-treatment-clinics-busier-with-spike-in-cases/

    Effective against Delta? I am relieved that the vaccinated are eligible for sensible treatments for when they contract covid.

    ***********

    Here is some information on what the FDA has approved:

    https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-authorizes-additional-monoclonal-antibody-treatment-covid-19

    And here is Dr Peter McCullough’s testimony to the Texas Senate HHS Committee in March:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QAHi3lX3oGM&feature=youtu.be

    I found it to be a worthwhile 20 min that really feeds right into the current article, above, on covid therapies. I do understand that some here have discredited the doctor because All Knowing YouTube censored him. To each their own.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  6. If I was of a Libertarian frame of mind, I’d say they just have to inform the public of the vaccination rates of their employees. But some would lie, some would make it hard to find and members of the public would be unaware the information was available or where to find it. Further, those in long-term care may not be able to access or use this information.

    So, yeah. Mandate it. The EEOC has already ruled on this, as have the courts.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  7. “New York City is a union town and that cannot be ignored,” he said in a statement.

    The mayor should charge the SEIU, and their officers individually, for reckless endangerment of the citizenry.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  8. I wonder what the mandated booster shot schedule will be?

    Saner people are already trying to figure out how to get an extra shot before the bureaucrats get their thumbs out.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. Buduh and the other Dana are all over the “vaccinated people are also getting sick” meme. As I said a week ago, it’s the new hot Trumpist strategy: “The vaccine doesn’t work, so why should I get it?”

    Push is going to come to shove soon.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. Claiming those that have recovered from the virus don’t have as good an immunity as those who take a RNA shot is not backed up by science.

    The supposition is that recovering from a virus gives you a narrow range of antibody response. The mRNA vaccines are intended to provide a broader response. But, sure, there isn’t enough data, and it is subject to people lying, in both directions.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  11. Quoting main stream media is the new hot Trump strategy.

    LOL!

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  12. Scott Adams
    @ScottAdamsSays
    How exactly do we know the Delta variant is a natural variation and not a new virus from a lab in China that once again, coincidentally, doesn’t have any impact on China?

    Is it because no American court found proof of widespread virus fraud?
    6:44 AM · Jul 25, 2021

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  13. Effective against Delta? I am relieved that the vaccinated are eligible for sensible treatments for when they contract covid.

    I’d expect it to work equally well against any simple mutation of Covid. Just as I’d expect the mRNA shots to provide antibodies to them, for very similar reasons. This does not imply that the vaccines don’t work, however. No one ever said vaccines are perfect.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  14. Effective against Delta? I am relieved that the vaccinated are eligible for sensible treatments for when they contract covid.

    We know this for a fact since we don’t want to go to war with China.

    (The bit about “widespread virus fraud” does not help Mr Adams’ argument or reputation)

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  15. Vaccines do work. For the right groups. And when it doesn’t work perfectly, which happens, it is good that those unfortunate few can fall back on the same effective treatment that the unvaccinated have been using successfully.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  16. I think you wanted to quote someone else at 10:31, Kevin.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  17. BTW, when will The Whitehouse impose mandatory vaccinations on their own staff?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  18. @17 this is the white house letting the unvaccinated stream across the border and giving them free transportation to parts unknown

    JF (e1156d)

  19. Fresh off the Hot Trumpists Strategy Press:

    July 26, 2021, 12:30 p.m. ET
    At the urging of federal regulators, two coronavirus vaccine makers are expanding the size of their studies in children ages five to 11 — a precautionary measure designed to detect rare side effects including heart inflammation problems that turned up in vaccinated people younger than 30.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/07/26/us/politics/fda-covid-vaccine-trials-children.amp.html

    GET VACCINATED ALREADY!

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  20. Mandatory Covid-19 Vaccinations For Medical Personnel Is Becoming A Thing…A Good Thing

    Just like making it mandatory for women to register for the draft a thing. A good thing.

    ‘Course Daughter Darth Liz Cheney could always volunteer for camo-wear duty rather than advocating sending the sons of other mothers into harm’s way. But deferring and avoiding such dangers is family policy.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  21. California also requiring state employees to be vaccinated or produce Covid test results once a week:

    California will require state employees and some health-care workers to show proof of Covid-19 or face mandatory weekly testing, top state officials said Monday.

    The program will require evidence of vaccination from all state employees by Aug. 2. Any state employees who remain unvaccinated by that date will be required to produce a negative Covid test at least once a week. Healthcare workers in outpatient settings like dental offices will also be required to take a Covid test once a week.

    “State offices and state employees are providing critical services across the state and we believe this is a way to ensure that continuity of government is protected and state employees will be working in a safe environment to continue to provide services to California,” the state’s Human Resources department said.

    In state health care facilities, employees who work in a hospital setting will be required to show proof of a Covid vaccine or produce negative Covid tests two times a week. Those who remain unvaccinated are recommended to wear N95 masks during work.

    Dana (fd537d)

  22. So California is mandating Covid testing, with an opt out. This will not please Kevin.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  23. @19. ‘Get vaccinated already????’

    A Pill to Treat Covid-19? The U.S. Is Betting on It.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/17/health/covid-pill-antiviral.html

    Dr. Anthony Fauci announced on Thursday that the White House was investing over $3 billion to advance the development of antiviral pills to treat Covid-19 as well as future virus outbreaks.

    The Long Shadow of the 1976 Swine Flu Vaccine ‘Fiasco’

    Some, but not all, of the hesitance to embrace vaccines can be traced back to this event 40 years ago.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/long-shadow-1976-swine-flu-vaccine-fiasco-180961994/

    The Public Health Legacy of the 1976 Swine Flu Outbreak

    ‘As the historian George Dehner wrote in his 2010 review on the lessons learned from the 1976 flu response, The Swine Flu Program was marred by a series of logistical problems ranging from the production of the wrong vaccine strain to a confrontation over liability protection to a temporal connection of the vaccine and a cluster of deaths among an elderly population in Pittsburgh.‘- https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/the-public-health-legacy-of-the-1976-swine-flu-outbreak?form=MY01SV&OCID=MY01SV

    They’ve so fouled up and muddled the messaging on this w/t hype of the rushed out one-now-two-now-three-now-who-knows-how-many-booster-shots vaccine brews for a virus that mutates virtually monthly so you can’t blame reasonable ‘folks’ for being suspicious or wary of any of President Plagiarist’s proclamations on this… especially given his own spinning history of fabrications and lying. Recall the shuffling, brain-damaged doddering dude saying if he screws up on anything, he’ll simply say he is ‘sorry’– but that don’t cut any ice and won’t heal the sick or comfort families who’ve lost people. Especially given Biden’s history. And profit-driven Big Pharma stands to make big, big bucks for itself and stockholders peddling one-shot-two-shot-booster-shot-vaccine batches to the government for months on end chasing a mutating bug.

    There’s a tablet for everything in America. WAIT. FOR. THE. PILL.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  24. Mr M wrote:

    “New York City is a union town and that cannot be ignored,” he said in a statement.

    The mayor should charge the SEIU, and their officers individually, for reckless endangerment of the citizenry.

    So, now you would criminalize speech?

    Of course, the union leadership only say what the union membership want them to say. If all, or the vast majority, of the union workers were already vaccinated, this would never have arisen, which tells me that a significant number of the union members have decided against it.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  25. [Comment deleted at the request of Time123. – JVW]

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  26. The much nicer Dana quoted:

    An analysis by WebMD and Medscape Medical News estimated that 25 percent of hospital workers who had contact with patients had not been vaccinated by the end of May.

    While these are not all doctors and nurses, many are. Here we have educated and trained medical personnel, people we assume are not stupid, yet they have chosen not to get the vaccines. Remember: medical personnel were the first group to which the vaccines were made available, in late December.

    I do not support their decisions, but I do support their right to take those decisions.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  27. If all, or the vast majority, of the union workers were already vaccinated, this would never have arisen, which tells me that a significant number of the union members have decided against it.

    Time would argue otherwise.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  28. All the Dr. and Nurses had been vaccinated.

    Were they telling the truth?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  29. I am doing my best to not sound compassionless but elderly people tend to lose their elderly friends at a certain age in life. My mom is going through this with her friends and she is 90. Did the grandmother in your anecdote have all of her friends up until the availability of the vaccine, the booster, and the waiting period for full effectiveness before her group started to pass away?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  30. The much better-looking Dana posted:

    Vaccination rates in NYC remain stuck, with more than 40% of the population still unvaccinated.

    2020 Presidential election in New York City:

    Bronx: Biden 83.44& Trump 14.60%
    Brooklyn: Biden 76.97% Trump 20.50%
    Manhattan: 86.76% Trump 11.37%
    Queens: Biden 72.19% Trump 25.07%
    Staten Island: Biden 42.07% Trump 52.99%

    Looks like maybe, just maybe, it ain’t all Trump supporters who aren’t taking the vaccines!

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  31. Other Dana and BuDuh,

    I would argue that you can’t read that from the unions stance. The fact is that the city wants to make a change to add something that union members have to do. Right, wrong, or indifferent the union is going to want /something/ for that change. How much they want and what they actually get will tell us how many members were upset by the change.

    A lot of union members will think that what their union ‘brother’ wants is dumb and the company should never agree. But they’ll still be outraged if the Union doesn’t fight for it. Not everyone felt that way, but it wasn’t uncommon.

    Additionally, from my experience in manufacturing union membership was only slightly more democrat then the area around them. Some of the guys I was close to said they wanted to vote GOP on most issues but were hesitant due to the GOP’s anti-union stance. But that was automotive. As a data point the UAW negotiated to get the opening day of gun season as a paid holiday. The OEM’s were Ok with it because there was so much absenteeism that day anyway. So not exactly a bunch of woke SJW hipsters.

    I agree the Union leadership will say what they think the members want, but that’s usually “we’ll fight for you.”

    Poling is probably the better way to know what union members are thinking.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  32. @30, They dies last year, the vaccine wasn’t available to save them. Point was just that my SIL is upset with her brother for running around telling people not to get vaccinated.

    They were old I’m sure. I’ve met my sister in law’s grandmother and she’s old. But having a bunch of friends die within a short period of time was apparently very upsetting. don’t know if they lost 6 months or 6 years of remaining life. SIL doens’t have a lot of patience for conspiracy theories and ‘just asking questions.’ And ‘there’s a lot we don’t know.” Etc etc

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  33. @31, yup. Anti-vax stupidity is high in some minority populations. They need to stop licking doorknob and get the shot already.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  34. All the Dr. and Nurses had been vaccinated.

    Were they telling the truth?

    I only know wha they told me, obviously. Also, in case it wasn’t clear, this was just the small subset I had conversations with. I wasn’t running a survey. But the vaccine had just come out and I was curious.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  35. A. 38 percent of nursing workers were not fully vaccinated as of July 11
    B. 25 percent of hospital workers who had contact with patients had not been vaccinated by the end of May.
    C. Vaccination rates in NYC remain stuck, with more than 40% of the population still unvaccinated.

    I was under the impression these unvaccinated people were all Southern state Trumpsterismists.

    Unions are great for society. Teachers, health care workers, fire fighters unions have all stepped up in a big way during this pandemic.
    “If City Hall intends to test our members weekly, they must first meet us at the table to bargain.”
    Garrido, whose union represents about 100,000 New York City employees across several departments, said weekly testing is subject to mandatory bargaining.

    Of course. More days off. Hero pay. Base pay and benefits raised. More employees will need to be hired to pad the union dues income. Weeks of delay getting vaccinated. What a deal.

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  36. 3. From the link:

    . In fact, data show that the vaccines can cause an increase in infections and deaths for up to two weeks after the first dose, possibly because they temporarily suppress immunity by recruiting so many white blood cells to the area of the injection.

    Possibly?

    That’s what I’ve been assuming and if someone says that data bears that out, you can be sure it is true.

    I;ve been saying that tipping point, where you benefit rather than lose by being vaccinated, is maybe 5 days after getting the first dose. Getting infected a week or so before or a week after getting the vaccination is worse than not getting vaccinated at all.

    So taking vitamins and isolating yourself wold be a good idea, although it’s not likely to make that much difference. And if the fever lasts more than 36 hours, it’s Covid, not the vaccine.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  37. @36, If you thought that you should pay more attention.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  38. 37. The anti-vaxxers aren’t saying that, because that would be a logical and truthful argument, which they don’t do, and, besides, in most cases, the vaccination would still be the way to bet.

    Except that the best time to get vaccinated is when there’s no Covid around to speak of in your locality. When it’s going around, that’s the worst time. And, if you suspect it get the antibody infusion. You may have to hunt it down. I don’t think that talk radio show on a ventilator did it. When he first tested positive, he predicted he would recover quickly.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  39. Poling is probably the better way to know what union members are thinking.

    Good and hard, baby… Good. And. Hard.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  40. 5. BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/26/2021 @ 10:05 am

    Effective against Delta?

    The old Eli Lilly ones (which cured former NJ Governor Chris Christie) were already not effective against an earlier ne and ave been taken off the market. You have to ask or research it. The Regeneron ones (which cured president Trump and were used even before the FDA’s original permission because he was the president you know and they an exception more readily, and then Trump promised to get it out to everyone and backed down under pressure because he was getting ahead of the science or something and the Democrats would pounce on that) only half as good but I think the GSK antibodies are effective against all strains.

    They all would be 100% effective if the FDA would allow these formulations to be more quickly updated

    There is not much guesswork involved. The only counterargument is the extremely small chance that the antibodies selected would target something else in the body.

    And they would also be more effective if repeated or larger doses were used when what was dose given at first didn’t work. Do you really need a clinical trial for that? Did they need that when they first started using Penicillin? Did they give everybody a standard dose of penicillin and never any more?

    Will there ever be such a clinical trial? CLINICAL TRIALS REQUIRE THAT HALF THE PEOPLE GET PLACEBOS.

    Perlmutter cancer center is advertising clinical trials but not mentioning that little detail. Many clinical trials involve no real issue of doubt, except maybe about the degree of effectiveness. Not is is better than nothing, but how much better?

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  41. I am relieved that the vaccinated are eligible for sensible treatments for when they contract covid.

    Many many doctors and hospitals are reluctant to use them. You may have to really be informed and motivated unless you are lucky.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-treatment-delta-variant-cases-symptoms-11627312440

    When Bob Bellin of Austin, Tex., tested positive for Covid-19 last December, he remembered that former President Donald Trump had taken a monoclonal antibody treatment from Regeneron Pharmaceuticals Inc.

    Suffering from a mild cough and a headache, the retiree was worried about his chances of developing a bad case of the virus because he has a compromised immune system condition. He says he called a telemedicine provider to inquire about antibody treatment, but the physician assistant on the call initially didn’t know about it. After some pleading, the healthcare worker agreed to research the drug’s availability, he says.

    Several minutes later, she got back to him with the names of sites where he could get the antibody treatment. The next week, Mr. Bellin received the infusion over a three-hour visit. A week later, he started his regular running routine again.

    Of course, this probably increases racial disparities in medical outcomes because fewer African Americans are college graduates etc. More systemic racism I suppose. Except it isn’t really race.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  42. The antibodies are in limited supply.

    You know what’s really so bad? They’re not even being used! There’s not much of a PR campaign for them, although New York City ran a week or two or carefully worded ads.

    Yet of the nearly one million doses shipped to hospitals and clinics from November through early May, just 49% were used by patients over the period.

    One factor in their limited use was the fact that influential panels that issue Covid-19 treatment guidelines balked at endorsing them before full clinical trial data was available. The National Institutes of Health and the Infectious Diseases Society of America didn’t recommend using the drugs until February and March, respectively, after Lilly provided results from a Phase 3 study.

    …..Hospitals were slow to embrace the drugs because they required intravenous infusions that took up to an hour to complete, followed by an hour of monitoring for side effects. Many infusion clinics faced the risk that Covid-19 patients would spread the virus to others with weakened immune systems who were being treated for cancer or other diseases.

    When severely ill Covid-19 patients began flooding its wards, the Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center set up a makeshift infusion center in a small auditorium to deliver monoclonal antibodies to people with confirmed cases, before they turned worse.

    …Of the patients treated so far, 4.8% have gone on to be hospitalized, compared with an estimated 8% to 9% for similar patients not infused with the drug, he says.

    Looking ahead, the best solution would be an antiviral that can be taken early in the disease as a pill, doctors say.

    which is in development, but on a pace wheree it could be ready for mass use for a year or so, unless the president gets behind it.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-pill-race-heats-up-as-japanese-firm-vies-with-pfizer-merck-11627205403

    A Japanese company has started human trials of the first once-a-day pill for Covid-19 patients, joining Pfizer Inc. PFE +0.51% and Merck MRK -0.44% & Co. in the race to find treatments for the disease….The company said it is testing the drug and any side effects in trials that began this month and are likely to continue until next year.

    Shionogi is months behind Pfizer and Merck, which have started later-stage tests of pills to treat Covid-19. Pfizer has said its twice-daily pill could be ready to hit the market as soon as this year. It is preparing to enroll more than 2,000 patients in a test of the antiviral pill combined with a booster antiviral drug against a placebo.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  43. In California, 25,310,119 people or 64% of the state has received at least one dose.
    Overall, 20,680,147 people or 52% of California’s population has been fully vaccinated.
    Damn those Trumpy yokel hayseeds and their guns.

    Fewer than 40% of blacks and hispanics in CA are fully vaccinated?
    https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/state/california
    No doubt due to systemic racism and low cap gains taxes.

    I noted before that if I was the 20 year old me again, I’d probably let nature take its course on the vaccine because when I was 20, I would have wanted natural immunity over a contrivance. At the time I lived up in the hills inside a dedicated gated gravel road in the middle of 40 acres of sagebrush and rattlesnakes that bordered the national forest, and was blessed with a good immune system.
    I’m vaccinated now, but would have preferred to have had COVID this past winter. Chances would have been extremely high that I’d be just fine in spite of my age, I’ve got a very good PPO plan etc.

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  44. No doubt due to systemic racism and low cap gains taxes.

    There’s an anti-vaccination campaign that targets blacks and cites the Tuskegee study. I mean, somebody has to be pushing it. (for around 20 years many researchers did not even try to enroll blacks in medical studies because of it)

    But it is also more isolation from the best of the medical profession

    I don’t think the following article is completely impartial though:

    https://www.kqed.org/news/11861810/no-the-tuskegee-study-is-not-the-top-reason-some-black-americans-question-the-covid-19-vaccine

    Here’s one thing that happened, early in the mass vaccination campain:

    The first mass vaccination sites set up in LA – at Dodger Stadium and Disneyland – are difficult to get to from Black neighborhoods without a car, and you practically needed a computer science degree to get an online appointment for the early doses.

    White people are snatching up appointments, even at clinics intended for disadvantaged communities, while people of color can’t get through.

    The same thing is happening with passports. People have traveled 50 miles and bought airline tickets they never intend to use to get expedited passport renewals.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  45. 8. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/26/2021 @ 10:18 am

    Saner people are already trying to figure out how to get an extra shot

    That should be simple. Don’t go to the same place you got the prior vaccination(s) and don’t tell them you already got vaccinated, and if asked, say you don’t remember, or lie.

    Donald Trump might enjoy giving this advice, except it’s too bold for him..

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  46. Covid politics Department:

    Donald Trump’s former White House doctor, now a Republican member of Congress from Texas *, claimed that the Texas Democrats who got positive test results for Covid must have been lying.

    So he seems to be saying that vaccines work.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/23/us/politics/congress-delta-coronavirus.html

    “I think that you as the press have a responsibility to ask questions of the Democrats as well,” Representative Ronny Jackson, Republican of Texas, snapped on Thursday when he and other Republican doctors were asked how many in their conference had been vaccinated. “How many of the Democrats are willing to say whether or not they’ve been vaccinated? What about the Texas delegation from the Texas House, including the six that tested positive?”

    After a reporter pointed out that 100 percent of House Democrats and all of the legislators had said they were vaccinated, Mr. Jackson, a former White House physician known for his glowing reviews of President Donald J. Trump’s health, accused them of lying.

    ——————
    * He ran for Congress after his nomination to be head of the Department of Veterans Affairs had to be wothdrawn. He bungled the campaign but was rescued

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/us/politics/ronny-jackson-texas.html

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  47. Sometimes I think both sides in the vax fight forget that the overall death rate for COVID is quite low and concentrated in an already vulnerable population.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  48. GOP congressman says he has Covid-19 for second time
    ……
    Referring to the disease as the “biological attack weaponized virus” from China, Rep. Clay Higgins said on Facebook that the latest infection is “far more challenging” than his bout with the coronavirus in January 2020.

    It was unclear whether the earlier infection was confirmed, and researchers have said there isn’t enough evidence yet to know the virus’s origins. Higgins said Sunday that he developed Covid-19 “before the world knew what it was.”
    ……
    Higgins, a former law enforcement officer first elected in 2016, said his wife and son also have the disease.
    …….
    Higgins has encouraged people to get vaccinated, although he has not publicly said whether he has been inoculated. In April, he told the editorial board of the Daily American newspaper of Lake Charles, Louisiana, that he had “natural immunity” because he had contracted Covid-19 before.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  49. Higgins may have had a false positive in January 2020, assuming they were even testing then. Maybe this is his first bout with Covid.

    TEST. FOR. ANTIBODIES. ALREADY.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  50. In an agitated exchange w/a MSNBC anchor this afternoon, CA Governor Gavin Newsom said the ‘anti-vax crowd’ are the same people he blames for the “damn recall” as he called it on air.

    Strawberries, anyone?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  51. #44 steveg – You might want to look at the possible effects of Long COVID, especially on young people, before coming to that conclusion. Here’s a link to the
    second of my comments on the subject, from the previous post.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  52. Bill Melugin
    @BillFOXLA
    On CNN just now, CA Governor Gavin Newsom just compared unvaccinated people to drunk drivers.

    “It’s like drunk drivers, you don’t have the right to go out and drink and drive and put everybody else at risk including your own life.”

    https://twitter.com/BillFOXLA/status/1419738088360747008

    A familiar trope.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  53. A little off topic, but probably interesting for those who want to make everything about politics:

    The previous British Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, has not said, publicly, whether he has been vaccinated.

    For those unfamiliar with Jeremy Corbyn: He can be described as a Trotskyite, or, if you prefer, a man who favors every enemy of the United States and Britain.

    (His “odious elder brother”, Piers, is a notorious anti-vaxxer.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  54. steveg – Actually, this link works.

    My apologies for the mistake.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  55. Update: The Veteran’s Administration listens to Dana:

    UPDATED: Veterans Affairs makes covid-19 vaccines mandatory for most health workers, making it first federal agency to do so

    The department is giving employees eight weeks to comply. “Whenever a Veteran or VA employee sets foot in a VA facility, they deserve to know that we have done everything in our power to protect them from COVID-19,″ Veterans Affairs Secretary Denis McDonough said in a statement.

    As everyone should.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  56. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/26/2021 @ 11:45 am

    SIL doens’t have a lot of patience

    Is her name Karen? It seems like we’re headed towards an unavoidable problem between the people who want to control other people and the people who don’t want to be controlled.

    frosty (f27e97)

  57. Here is the press release from the VA:

    VA mandates COVID-19 vaccines among its medical employees including VHA facilities staff

    WASHINGTON — July 26 Department of Veterans Affairs Secretary Denis McDonough announced he will make COVID-19 vaccines mandatory for Title 38 VA health care personnel — including physicians, dentists, podiatrists, optometrists, registered nurses, physician assistants, expanded-function dental auxiliaries and chiropractors — who work in Veterans Health Administration facilities, visit VHA facilities or provide direct care to those VA serves.
    VA is taking this necessary step to keep the Veterans it serves safe.
    Each employee will have eight weeks to be fully vaccinated.
    “We’re mandating vaccines for Title 38 employees because it’s the best way to keep Veterans safe, especially as the Delta variant spreads across the country,” McDonough said. “Whenever a Veteran or VA employee sets foot in a VA facility, they deserve to know that we have done everything in our power to protect them from COVID-19. With this mandate, we can once again make — and keep — that fundamental promise.”
    The department’s decision is supported by numerous medical organizations including the American Hospital Association, America’s Essential Hospitals and a Multisociety group of the leading Infectious Disease Societies. The American Medical Association, American Nurses Association, American College of Physicians, American Academy of Pediatrics, Association of American Medical Colleges, and National Association for Home Care and Hospice also endorsed mandating COVID-19 vaccination for health care workers.
    In recent weeks, VA has lost four employees to COVID-19 — all of whom were unvaccinated. At least three of those employees died because of the increasingly prevalent Delta variant. There has also been an outbreak among unvaccinated employees and trainees at a VA Law Enforcement Training Center, the third such outbreak during the pandemic.
    All VA employees are eligible to be vaccinated at no personal expense at any of our facilities. Employees will also receive four hours of paid administrative leave after demonstrating they have been vaccinated. Information in these FAQs or clinician and Veteran videos has details about the vaccine, its safety and effectiveness.
    The safety and wellbeing of our Veterans and personnel is paramount.

    The notice doesn’t really cover whether the four afflicted employees would be covered under the Title 38 mandate. The only clue they give is a seemingly unrelated sentence regarding an out break at their law enforcement training center.

    Here is a list of all the groups of employees that work at a VA Facility:

    The pay you receive depends on the pay system that applies to you: General Schedule (GS); Federal Wage System (FWS); Senior Executive Service (SES); Senior-Level Pay System; Title 38; Locality Pay System; or Veterans Canteen Service (VCS).

    The General Schedule is a nationwide schedule of annual rates of pay that applies to you if you are an administrative, technical or professional employee in the civil service. The schedule consists of 15 grades ranging from GS-1 (least difficult) to GS-15 (most difficult). There are 10 steps within each grade. Your grade is determined by the classification process. The rates for the General Schedule are based on comparability with private enterprise pay for work levels of similar difficulty. To maintain comparability, annual adjustments to the General Schedule may be made on a nationwide basis. Adjustments made on a nationwide basis are commonly referred to as general comparability increases and affect many GS employees.
    Adjustments made on a locality basis are referred to as locality comparability payments. These adjustments are based on a comparison of Federal pay with local non-Federal pay rates. The amount of locality pay an employee receives depends on the geographic area where he or she works. As a result, the amount of locality pay may change if the employee changes duty stations.

    The Federal Wage System applies to you if you are in a trade, craft, or labor occupation. FWS pay rates are based on comparability with private enterprise and the range of rates that applies to you is based on the grade level assigned to your job. The rates of pay for FWS employees are established on an area-by- area basis. Each wage area has a 15-grade schedule for nonsupervisory employees and leaders and a 19-grade schedule for supervisors.
    Ranging from ES-1 to ES-6, pay rates for Senior Executive Service employees are typically based on the level of responsibilities of the assignment and the individual’s qualifications and performance. Generally, ES-5 and ES-6 rates are reserved for senior executives assigned to the agency’s most complex SES positions.

    The Senior-Level Pay System includes senior-level (SL) positions classifiable above GS-15 and scientific or professional (ST) positions. Employees who meet the criteria for these positions may be paid at rates of not less than 120 percent of GS-15, step 1, or more than the rate of basic pay for Level IV of the Executive Schedule. Initial pay for these highly technical positions is set at any rate between these limits based on review of the employee’s qualifications, the responsibility level of the assignment, and the impact of the position on VA, the Government, or the public.

    If you are a physician, dentist, podiatrist, optometrist, physician assistant or expanded-function dental auxiliary in a health care facility, you are paid under the provisions of Title 38, U.S. Code. Your grade level is not based on a position description, but rather on your personal qualifications. Your pay schedule, however, is linked to the General Schedule by a comparison of duties and responsibilities at certain grade levels, and is adjusted at the same time as the General Schedule. If, however, you are at certain levels of administration (e.g., facility Director), your pay is based on the complexity and responsibility of the assignment, as well as on your performance and qualifications.

    If you are a nurse or nurse anesthetist, you are paid under VA’s Locality Pay System (LPS). This means that your salary rate is based on a survey of non-VA health care establishments in your local labor market area. The salary surveys determine the competitiveness of a facility’s locality pay rates. They are conducted at least once a year for each facility, but they may be conducted more often if the facility Director determines it is necessary. There are five grade levels in LPS. Assignments to grade levels I, II, and III are based on personal qualifications, while assignments to grades IV and V are based on the complexity of the assignment as well as personal qualifications.

    If you are a physical therapist, certified respiratory therapy technician, registered respiratory therapist, occupational therapist, pharmacist, or licensed practical or vocational nurse, you will be compensated under the General Schedule, but your grade will be based on personal qualifications, and at certain levels, it will also be based on the complexity of your assignment.
    If you are employed in the Veterans Canteen Service, your salary depends on the duties and responsibilities of your position. Canteen officers and canteen officer trainees are paid annual salaries that are related to the General Schedule. Otherwise, your pay is based on salaries paid by firms that serve the general public in your geographic area.

    https://www.tampa.va.gov/careers/documents/VA-Employee-Handbook.pdf

    Sure seems like a lot of people are excluded from this mandate.
    Hooray anyways!!

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  58. Who woulda thunk he’d have a Karen for a SIL!?!?

    Get ready to mask diaper up… https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/07/23/covid-could-spread-flatulence-say-ministers/

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  59. Here is the link to the VA press release:

    https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=5696

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  60. Got! Got!
    Cocaine eyes

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  61. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/26/2021 @ 11:45 am

    SIL doens’t have a lot of patience

    Is her name Karen? It seems like we’re headed towards an unavoidable problem between the people who want to control other people and the people who don’t want to be controlled.

    frosty (f27e97) — 7/26/2021 @ 2:52 pm

    Are you trying to be offensive or is there some reason you took one part of that out of context and misrepresented what it meant to insult my sil?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  62. Frosty and Colonel Haiku, I shared that because it was recent and related to the conversation. I tried to explain why my SIL was angry at her brother over this. The cheap insults at a member of my family are just rude. I expect CH to be like this, it’s who he is. But I’m a little shocked at you frosty.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  63. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/26/2021 @ 3:12 pm

    I don’t think I misrepresented anything. I simply represented it from a POV that you don’t appreciate.

    The “context” here is that anything other than doing whatever we’re told to end the virus means killing more of grandma’s friends and driving your SIL into fits of frustration.

    How is that not about fear and a desire for some control to mitigate that fear? From your story, I’d suspect the only thing keeping your SIL from forcing her brother to stop speaking his mind is her inability to bring force to bear.

    frosty (f27e97)

  64. It was really just about how at the personal level this is really complicated and how someone in my life is struggling with this. But I won’t ask you to take my word for it.

    Talking about people I care about online is a mistake. I shouldn’t have assumed commenting rules about presumption of good faith and refraining from personal insults would be honored. I’m not going to be able to write dispassionately about if my SIL is a Karen with the nasty motivations you ascribe to her or not.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  65. I’m out for a bit.

    Time123 (66ddb9)

  66. Colonel and frosty: If you are going to accuse Time123’s sister-in-law of being a “Karen” because she’s angry at her brother for trying to convince family members to forego the vaccine, then it seems that you should also spare some contempt for her brother and his wife who are telling their family not to vaccinate. I mean, “mind your own damn business” ought to go both for the people who are insisting that everyone vaccinate themselves and for the people who don’t think the vaccine is useful or wise.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  67. I don’t have contempt for teh KARENs, I find them to be a source of much amusement, JVW. People have free will/freedom of choice to make their own decisions. And yes… people should tend to their “own damn business”. But they seldom do. Which is also amusing.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  68. I wonder if this is why the VA is targeting Title 38 employees:

    Bill to Grant Title 38 VA Health Care Professionals Full Workplace Rights Gains Momentum in Congress

    June 21, 2021

    The VA Employee Fairness Act of 2021 has passed the House Veterans Affairs Committee and is waiting to be considered by the full House of Representatives. The bill has more than 100 co-sponsors.

    If enacted, it would give tens of thousands of VA employees including doctors and nurses full collective bargaining rights to negotiate for better working conditions and make the VA a better place to work.

    AFGE is working with House VA Committee Chairman Mark Takano’s office to circulate a sign-on letter to members of Congress that will be sent to VA Secretary Denis McDonough urging him to use broad authority to grant more workplace rights to Title 38 employees – Physicians, Dentists, Podiatrists, Optometrists, Chiropractors, Nurses, Nurse Anesthetists, Physician Assistants, and Expanded-Function Dental Auxiliaries (EFDAs). AFGE represents more than 60,000 of these frontline VA healthcare professionals across the country. There are significantly more throughout VA.

    https://www.afge.org/article/bill-to-grant-title-38-va-health-care-professionals-full-workplace-rights-gains-momentum-in-congress/

    Vaccination without representation!

    Better hurry before there is a vote.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  69. 48. Hoi Polloi (093fb9) — 7/26/2021 @ 1:21 pm

    Sometimes I think both sides in the vax fight forget that the overall death rate for COVID is quite low and concentrated in an already vulnerable population.

    Approximately 2/3 of the population of India got it – perhaps an earlier version – Delta was in New Delhi – but nowhere near 2/3 of the population of India died.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/07/20/1018438334/indias-pandemic-death-toll-estimated-at-about-4-million-10-times-the-official-co

    The population of India was about 1400 million.

    Two thirds of that is 900 million or so.

    Four million deaths equals less than about half a percent. It’s not the Andromeda strain.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  70. JVW or any mod can you please delete comment 25 where I told a story about a family member being upset? I didn’t have a grand point, it was just top of mind and related and I decided to share it. I’d rather not give CH more opportunity to insult her by having the conversation continue.

    Time123 (66ddb9)

  71. I’ll delete the comment, and let’s all resolve to tread lightly and keep it respectful when we’re talking about a commenter’s family, even their extended family.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  72. Thank you.

    Time123 (66ddb9)

  73. Sammy – Some time ago I saw (at Political Betting) obesity used as part of the explanation for Britain’s higher COVID death total than France’s. At the time, Britain and France had almost exactly the same numbers of cases. But France, in spite of all that great food, has a lower rate of obesity.

    Here’s a list of countries by BMI, if you want to explore that possible relationship, generally.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  74. JVW (ee64e4) — 7/26/2021 @ 4:29 pm

    The Karen comment went a direction I didn’t intend but do you really think the brother needs more contempt heaped on him from anyone here? The criticism and ridicule directed at anything remotely anti-vax is already very thorough.

    I stand by my comment about people who want to control others and the people who don’t want to be controlled. Time123’s experience notwithstanding, I have never met a person who wanted to mandate that others NOT get vaccinated. In my experience, this isn’t a thing.

    frosty (f27e97)

  75. The Karen comment went a direction I didn’t intend but do you really think the brother needs more contempt heaped on him from anyone here?

    Did you read the part where I wrote that if he doesn’t want contempt then maybe he shouldn’t be pushing his anti-vax views on the rest of his family? I’m a live-and-let-live guy as far as that mostly goes, but if he’s going to proselytize his anti-vax views then, yes, frankly he deserves all of the derision that comes his way. Just as the whiny, high-strung “if you don’t vax you’re guilty of murder and ought to be subject to arrest and incarceration” crowd deserves to be relentlessly mocked as well.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  76. Claiming those that have recovered from the virus don’t have as good an immunity as those who take a RNA shot is not backed up by science

    Yes, it is.

    https://t.co/6cM1BGA9Tn

    Patterico (e349ce)

  77. BuDuh citing Alex Berenson is about what I would have expected. Absolute horseshit from a known anti-vax propagandist. Berenson is garbage and anyone citing him for anything reveals deep ignorance.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  78. I guess his numbers are wrong then.

    Fair enough.

    I don’t like the way you have talked to me. Goodbye.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  79. One last thing before I take off. I noticed that Twitter has not flagged Berenson’s comments on that topic or his link and assumes that if their fact checkers let it stand for this long maybe it wasn’t as erroneous as you have decided.

    Maybe the fact checkers are losing their touch?

    Either way, I don’t think I deserved such scorn.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  80. …and assumed…

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  81. I think you wanted to quote someone else at 10:31, Kevin.

    Yes, Scott Adams quote about Delta being a CHinese attack.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. So, now you would criminalize speech?

    No, I would criminalize threats to obstruct a reasonable (and lawful) government order, directed solely at government workers.

    If he said “we’ll block ambulances” would you consider that “just speech.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  83. So California is mandating Covid testing, with an opt out. This will not please Kevin.

    No, they are mandated vaccines, and testing is the opt out. Tests are not the same thing — they say that “as of two days ago, this person did not have Covid” I hope they have to pay for the tests, and it’s good they have to wear masks, which I also hope they have to pay for.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  84. I am doing my best to not sound compassionless

    The two people I knew who died were in their 50s. Both were quite active prior.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  85. Looks like maybe, just maybe, it ain’t all Trump supporters who aren’t taking the vaccines!

    And here I must agree with the less-attractive Dana. I personally know people who liked Trump, who hated Trump and who didn’t give a crap either way, who are not getting the vaccine yet. Reasons vary.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  86. That’s how the Russian Anti-Vaxx propaganda works. It effects the dumbest of the dumb. Well, that is predominantly going to be Trumper’s, because they are morons, that’s just a fact. But there are other morons as well that fall into other fellow traveler categories with high moron components.

    About half the country as a whole is vaccinated, so those of average intelligence or some common sense. That leaves a lot of opportunity.

    As always, feel sorry for the kids, because they can’t voluntarily override the discretion of their moron parents (at least not easily), but mandatory vaccinations exist today, and have for decades to go to school and work certain jobs, kids 17-under will be among the highest group over time, once EUA’s are avail for 5+. That will just leave the moron set, and that is a self limiting group.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  87. JVW (ee64e4) — 7/26/2021 @ 8:23 pm

    I did. My point was that it seems like this is covered already. I’ve got a limited allotment of derision and only so many minutes in a day allocated to distribution.

    frosty (f27e97)

  88. Mr M wrote:

    So, now you would criminalize speech?

    No, I would criminalize threats to obstruct a reasonable (and lawful) government order, directed solely at government workers.

    If he said “we’ll block ambulances” would you consider that “just speech.”

    You wrote originally:

    “New York City is a union town and that cannot be ignored,” he said in a statement.

    The mayor should charge the SEIU, and their officers individually, for reckless endangerment of the citizenry.

    Which was a response to, from the original post:

    Henry Garrido, executive director of District Council 37 of AFSCME, said, “If City Hall intends to test our members weekly, they must first meet us at the table to bargain.”

    Somehow, I don’t see a union leader stating that the city must meet the union at the bargaining table as a threat. That’s freedom of speech, and a very reasonable thing for a union leader to say.

    Now, “If he said ‘we’ll block ambulances’ would you consider that ‘just speech'”? Yes, I would, because no harm is done by saying that they’ll block ambulances. Union members would have to actually block ambulances for there to be any harm done. That hypothetical speech is not in any way similar to a specific threat, I will shoot you, to a specifiable person.

    How, I have to ask, is demanding that an employer of a unionized workforce meet with the union to bargain a change in employment rules either “reckless endangerment of the citizenry” or a”(criminal) (threat) to obstruct a reasonable (and lawful) government order, directed solely at government workers”?

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  89. Anyone look at Sweden lately?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  90. No. Why?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  91. @93 Sweden went with the herd immunity approach and there’s a bit of debate about the results.

    frosty (f27e97)

  92. Last I checked their performance was much worse then comparable countries by most measures.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  93. COVID-19 on the rise in Swedish cities as Delta outbreaks dominate
    …….
    Sweden reported 1,855 new cases of COVID-19 last week, a 24% increase compared to the previous week. Around a quarter of new cases were linked to travel abroad, the heath authority said.

    “The number of cases nationally of Covid-19 continues to be at a low level, but an increase is seen in all metropolitan regions,” the authority said in a statement, adding that 75% of Sweden’s adult population had now received at least one dose of vaccine.
    ……..
    Sweden is just like any other country, facing increased infections with the delta variant. The main difference is that they have vaccinated a much higher percentage of their population.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  94. https://conservativeplaylist.com/2021/07/27/delta-variant-natural-immunity-700-better-than-the-vaccine/
    My family will be just fine without the jonestowner grape aide agenda.

    mg (8cbc69)

  95. Those conservative Trumpelstiltskins!

    You’ve probably been told that “white Republican males” are the chief drivers of low vaccination rates, and they certainly show up in the mix. But the overall demographic data shows that whites, in general, are volunteering to be vaccinated at a far brisker pace than either Black or Hispanic citizens, though whites are lagging well behind Asians who are leading the pack. Overall in the United States, Asians lead with 62% being fully vaccinated. Whites are at 47%, Hispanics have reached 39 percent, and Blacks are still stuck at a 34 percent vaccination rate.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  96. 98… How about that! No hyperbole, no histrionics… just the facts!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  97. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/27/2021 @ 9:26 am

    Like many things, the details are more complicated. For example, it’s not clear which other countries are comparable. If you’re against the Swedish response it includes EU countries with better numbers and if you’re in favor of their approach you pick countries with higher numbers.

    This is why I mentioned in the other thread that high-level single stat comparisons aren’t very useful.

    frosty (f27e97)

  98. CDC to recommend fully vaccinated people in ‘hot spots’ to go back to wearing masks.

    WTF.

    Again, they’ve so fouled up and muddled the messaging on this. Hyping rushed out one-now-two-now-three-now-who-knows-how-many-booster-shots vaccine brews for a virus that mutates virtually monthly.

    You can’t blame reasonable ‘folks’ for being suspicious or wary of any of President Plagiarist’s proclamations on this… especially given his own spinning history of fabrications and lying. Recall the shuffling, brain-damaged doddering dude saying if he screws up on anything, he’ll simply say he is ‘sorry’– but that don’t cut any ice and won’t heal the sick or comfort families who’ve lost people. Especially given Biden’s history.

    And profit-driven Big Pharma stands to make big, big bucks for itself and stockholders peddling one-shot-two-shot-booster-shot-vaccine batches to the government for months on end chasing a mutating bug.

    There’s a tablet for everything in America. WAIT. FOR. THE. PILL.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  99. For everyone comfortable giving free medical advice, and now cheering for vaccine mandates, do you feel any responsibility to anyone who experiences side effects?

    If someone listens to you say “just get vaccinated”, does it, and has an allergic reaction or an enlarged heart is any of that on you?

    What happens if we get some sort of effect similar to thalidomide that starts showing up later this year?

    And just to be clear, this isn’t me telling anyone to not get vaccinated. This is a specific question directed to people who feel comfortable telling and possibly requiring other people to get vaccinated.

    frosty (f27e97)

  100. Frosty, decisions need to be made with the facts we have. At this point there’s no reason to expect significant side effects from the vaccine. I’m not going to feel bad about things I have no way of knowing. Like most people I don’t speak in complex sentences with a paragraph of disclaimers. But if there’s a legitimate reason for an individual not to get vaccinated they shouldn’t. Because that’s rare I don’t add it to every statement about getting vaccinated being a good idea.

    Time123 (020838)

  101. @100, this line of conversation is weird.

    Time123 (020838)

  102. But with the propaganda, it sells the moron element that there could be a 97% chance that vaccination + 5G = exploding babies. That exaggerates it a bit, but complications that number in the dozens out of hundreds of millions as measured in the real world don’t actually matter. The moron component just says “”they“tell me that babies explode when you use your cell phone when you get vaccinated. The lack of reports of exploding babies is all the evidence you need of the cover up. They’ve not personally witnessed one, you know, the exploding baby, but their friend on facebook… GDMFMorons, some may even be nice people, for morons actively trying to commit manslaughter because they’re too dumb/lazy/broken to do the right thing.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  103. Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 7/27/2021 @ 3:33 pm

    You feeling ok today?

    frosty (f27e97)

  104. NFL players biggest questions about the vaccine were if it changes your DNA or creates infertility (according to NPR)..9.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  105. Pappy Van Tinkles…

    Colonel Haiku (b35858)

  106. Time123 (020838) — 7/27/2021 @ 3:09 pm

    There’s a difference between you making a decision for yourself based on the information you have and you doing your level best to influence other people to make the decision you want them to make. This is more problematic when this becomes mandatory, i.e. literally taking the decision away from them.

    You’ve got more confidence in your ability to access risk on behalf of other people than I do.

    frosty (f27e97)

  107. Now, “If he said ‘we’ll block ambulances’ would you consider that ‘just speech’”? Yes, I would, because no harm is done by saying that they’ll block ambulances.

    Then why are you so upset at the Mayor saying he’ll mandate vaccinations?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  108. This is more problematic when this becomes mandatory, i.e. literally taking the decision away from them.

    No, they have a choice. They can go work somewhere else. Just as some people did when their workplaces banned smoking.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  109. @109 The argument that we shouldn’t encourage vaccines due to the fear of the unknown isn’t very compelling. It was compelling when applied to previous vaccines and it’s not compelling when you’re making it now.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  110. The left have given up on charm
    You must, they say, give us your arm
    For if you don’t
    Make money you won’t
    And you will soon buy the farm

    The Limerick Avenger (405d48)

  111. You will need a vax passport
    Public space will be like a fort
    Don’t get the vapors
    When asked for your papers
    Or you’ll get hauled into court!

    The Limerick Avenger (405d48)

  112. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/27/2021 @ 5:43 pm

    The argument that we shouldn’t encourage

    I see what you’re doing there.

    frosty (f27e97)

  113. This was your initial description. If someone listens to you say “just get vaccinated”

    I think encourage is a pretty fair description.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  114. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/27/2021 @ 5:25 pm

    You’re analogies are not improving. This is at least different than the parachute one. Are you still thinking not getting the vaccine has the same chance of death as jumping from a plane without a parachute?

    I’ve never worked somewhere a smoker didn’t have a place to go smoke so I’ve never seen a situation where a smoker had to choose between smoking and their job. Maybe you’re in a state/city that has an absolute ban. Good for you.

    frosty (f27e97)

  115. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/27/2021 @ 6:30 pm

    That’s a good point. My comment didn’t begin with

    and now cheering for vaccine mandates

    or anything and that didn’t come before that part you’re claiming is my “initial” description. You’re point is doubly well made since I didn’t end that comment with

    feel comfortable telling and possibly requiring other people to get vaccinated.

    either. So, yea, I can see how “encourage” is what I was going for.

    And just for grins, you’re thinking I’d have an issue with someone encouraging someone to get the vaccine based on anything else I’ve said?

    frosty (f27e97)

  116. Guess when you put three different levels of persuasion/compulsion in the same comment it lead to miscommunication. And you’re correct; Based on the things you’ve said I think that. But maybe that’s just miscommunication as well.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  117. According to CBS 13 in Sacramento, there’s a Higher COVID Rate Found In Counties With Higher Vaccination Rate, while case rates are falling in counties with below-average vaccination rates.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  118. That’s really interesting. Thank you for sharing.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  119. @123; what’s the latest catchphrase? No shoes, no shirt, no vaccine, no service?

    I think what we really need are segregated facilities. We need separate bathrooms for the vaccinated and unvaccinated. The people with the good stickers get on the bus. I’m not sure we can set aside some seats there for the unvaccinated.

    We’re just lucky the vaccine is stopping the delta variant in its tracks and the vaccinated won’t have to lockdown again.

    frosty (f27e97)

  120. Remember when people laughed at claims that vaccine passports were equivalent to Jewish stars in the Third Reich?

    First a vaccination sticker, next a trip to a concentration camp. I mean, they already forced to wear badges.

    Rip Murdock (0d5408)

  121. Rip Murdock (0d5408) — 7/27/2021 @ 8:19 pm

    The best part of that is you think that’s actually a clever response. Separate but equal right? It’d be fine as long as everyone has to wear a sticker? Sort of how all armbands are the same?

    frosty (f27e97)

  122. From msn.com:

    A source told CNN that unpublished data showing that “vaccinated people infected with the Delta coronavirus variant can have as much virus as those who are unvaccinated” pushed the C.D.C. to adjust its guidelines. . . . .

    The Delta variant now accounts for 83% of new COVID infections in the United States, per CNN, and C.D.C. officials are concerned by new data showing that even vaccinated people can carry and transmit the Delta variant.

    So, if the vaccinated who pick up the virus have just as much of a viral load as those who are not vaccinated, and the data show that the vaccinated can carry and transmit the virus just as much as those not vaccinated, the arguments that we must force people to be vaccinated to protect others has fallen apart.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  123. Frankly, I haven’t seen the data that supports that. And remember that many RNA based viruses throw off defective template that will appear positive in PCR based tests. I’m very nervous about headlines like that. I recommend that folks follow the “This Week in Virology” podcast: https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/.

    Sadly, though, such information doesn’t help the press or pundits with their agendas.

    Simon Jester (76d278)

  124. Yes, I am not a fan of these tests.

    Kevin M (a981b5)

  125. the vaccinated can carry and transmit the virus just as much as those not vaccinated

    No. They show that vaccinated people can contract the virus, for statistically shorter periods and milder symptoms. They do not transmit the disease “just as much” because they don’t GET the disease “just as much.”

    Kevin M (a981b5)

  126. And also, far fewer get the infection at any meaningful level.

    Kevin M (a981b5)

  127. Again, Kevin, this has become about politics instead of virology and epidemiology. Sadly.

    Simon Jester (76d278)

  128. “vaccinated people infected with the Delta coronavirus variant can have as much virus as those who are unvaccinated”

    “CAN HAVE” does not mean much. People who drink one beer CAN HAVE as much impairment as someone who drank 3 six-packs. But almost all won’t.

    Kevin M (a981b5)

  129. Kevin M (a981b5) — 7/28/2021 @ 1:03 pm

    “CAN HAVE” does not mean much

    It means enough that the CDC reversed its position on masks.

    If you’ve been fully vaccinated:

    To reduce the risk of being infected with the Delta variant and possibly spreading it to others, wear a mask indoors in public if you are in an area of substantial or high transmission.

    And for those needing the disclaimer; I have no desire to tell you what to do, make up your own mind, get qualified medical advice, etc.

    frosty (f27e97)

  130. I’m suspicious the CDC is going back to masks to push the vaccine. Which everyone that can get, should get.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  131. I cited not an evil reich-wing blog, but a liberally oriented credentialed news source, which contained its own internal citations.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  132. 130. Kevin M (a981b5) — 7/28/2021 @ 12:59 pm

    They do not transmit the disease “just as much” because they don’t GET the disease “just as much.”

    The only possibility I can see for serious spread is that there can be a cascade of successively worse cases.

    But they’re still at first order thinking.

    R0 is not stable.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  133. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/28/2021 @ 3:40 pm

    I’m expecting some disappointment with the vaccine. It might be better to view it as a therapeutic, i.e. as a way to manage the symptoms. It was sold as a way to “get back to normal” and it doesn’t look like that’s playing out as hoped.

    If someone is holding the moral high ground thinking they’ve got the vaccine and can’t make others sick or can’t be part of the pool for new variants they may be disappointed.

    There’s also a bit of mixed messaging in other areas. We’re still using case numbers as a proxy for future deaths and hospitalizations. But if those most likely to have serious complications from covid are vaccinated and if the vaccine does in fact reduce the symptoms, and the chances for death and hospitalizations, we need to adjust how we view those numbers.

    frosty (f27e97)

  134. Starting today, Friday, New York City is offering a $100 debit card, either emailed in digital form, or mailed to an physical address, to anyone who gets vaccinated (the first dose) at a city-run vaccination site and brings proof of a city address or place of work in New York City.

    Washington D.C. is offering $51.

    I think somewhere else it is going for $150.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)


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