Patterico's Pontifications

7/21/2021

Tucker Carlson Is Almost Certainly Killing People

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



A lot of conservatives are upset at claims by Joe Biden that the lies being spread about the vaccines on Facebook, Fox News, and other places are killing people.

Biden is right. Misinformation like that spewed by Carlson is certainly a substantial factor in some people refusing to get vaccinated. Some people have believed the lies, refused the vaccine as a result of the misinformation, and died as a result of not taking the vaccine.

Tucker Carlson has 3 million viewers. You don’t think any of those three million have refused vaccines in substantial part based on misinformation from his and similar shows? Is this the only issue where his millions of viewers ignore him?

Studies have shown that there is a relationship between those who view the propaganda and those who do not get vaccinated.

Those reporting getting their information from various other media did not show significant differences in vaccine acceptance, but viewers of Fox News did report being more hesitant than viewers of other broadcast news, the research showed. Authors noted that it is possible that individuals gravitate toward the cable news networks that present a view on the pandemic that is aligned with their own opinions.

The conservatives upset with Biden seize on that second sentence to argue that the anti-vax propaganda out there has no effect, because everyone tuning in already believes the anti-vax anyway. Nobody’s mind is changed by Tucker, the argument goes, because Tucker is just telling people what they already believe. That’s why they watch him!

If your argument is that media figures who spew vile and false Trumpist garbage cannot be influencing anyone, because the people who tune in to hear vile and false Trumpist garbage already believe the vile and false Trumpist garbage, you are bypassing the question of how they came to believe vile and false Trumpist garbage to begin with.

You could use that argument to argue that literally no propaganda has any effect on anyone because the people listening to it already believed it. According to this argument, Rush Limbaugh never influenced anyone. Sean Hannity never influences anyone. Tucker Carlson never influences anyone. Donald Trump never influences anyone. All of these people just tell citizens things they already believe. But how did the citizens come to hold these beliefs in the first place? I don’t know! But certainly not because they listened to Trump or Limbaugh or Carlson! Probably the citizens were just . . . born believing the election was stolen and vaccines don’t work.

Does this argument really hold together? Why don’t conservatives make this argument about the liberal media that we all rail about? Does anyone argue that the lies of the New York Times don’t matter because New York Times readers already believe the lies they are told? Is such an argument coherent and persuasive?

It’s the same logic that underlies the view that Trump is purely a symptom of the sentiment out there and not a cause of anything. That’s too simplistic. He’s both a symptom and a cause. If someone had strangled baby Trump in his crib, there likely would not have been an insurrection at the Capitol in 2020, because whoever ran against Biden would not have refused to concede or stuck with a Giant Lie about voter fraud.

What leaders say matter. What presidents say matters. What leading media figures say matters.

Some conservatives relatedly argue that pro-vax people don’t tune into Tucker, so nobody is being flipped from pro-vax to anti-vax. But when we talk about the unvaccinated, we are talking about a wide range of demographics and perspectives. The issue is not merely “has Tucker convinced a pro-vax person to go anti-vax?” It’s not even “has Tucker had a but-for effect on people who were resolutely anti-vax from jump street?” This is a big country with many levels of resistance and/or hesitancy. Many subscribe to insane conspiracy theories and are unpersuadable. But a) many got that way by imbibing misinformation including from Fox News and b) not everyone is completely unpersuadable. Some people are on the fence. And I know millions of people watch Fox News opinion shows for the Real Facts Big Media Won’t Tell You — and the notion that their anti-vax propaganda has zero effect on anyone is, in my view, highly, highly, highly implausible.

The wide range of perspectives out there also encompasses the reality that black and Hispanic communities are more hesitant/resistant on average than white communities. I have seen some conservatives seize on the fact that people of color are being vaccinated at lower rates to argue that most of the unvaccinated are people of color. That doesn’t follow and it’s not true. Because non-Hispanic whites are still a distinct majority in this country, it’s still mostly white folks not getting vaccinated. Don’t take my word for it. Look at the link that most of the conservatives are relying on. It says: “Around two-thirds (64%) of vaccinated adults are White, compared to 56% of unvaccinated adults.” If 56% of unvaccinated adults are white, people of color cannot be a majority of the unvaccinated.

Conservatives also argue that Tucker Carlson can’t have caused all of the unvaccinated because he has only three million viewers — just a fraction of the unvaccinated. Certainly nobody says Carlson is solely responsible for the lack of vaccination in this country. No single person is. But they are all part of the misinformation ecosystem that is persuading people not to be vaccinated. Which kills those people. You don’t have to believe Tucker caused every unvaccinated person not to be vaccinated to believe he is influential. And he’s influential beyond his three million viewers, because they repeat his bullshit to others and it becomes part of the bullshit ecosystem. Just like the New York Times has a long tail of influence that extends beyond the numbers of people who actually read their articles, so too do Laura Ingraham and Tucker Carlson have influence beyond those who tune in. People repeat his garbage on Facebook and Twitter. They repeat it to their friends and family members. It matters.

My argument is not that everyone who watches Tucker, or even most of them, will die. The point is: some people are dying, still, and they are overwhelmingly those who were not vaccinated. About 9,000 died of COVID in the United States in June. Something caused those people not to get the vaccine. Whatever that something was, was a substantial cause of their death. That something may well be a complex set of causes for any given person. But the notion that no part of that something could be misinformation from Fox News, for any of those people, strikes me as so improbable as to be laughable.

199 Responses to “Tucker Carlson Is Almost Certainly Killing People”

  1. It’s interesting to consider why Tucker et al have gone in for vaccine skepticism. There’s money to be made by taking the general suspicion and hate of the right wing towards Biden and finding ways to amplify it. And just because Biden is pushing vaccines therefore is all the reason needed to fight it or mock it.

    The hypocrisy of course is a little nauseating. Tucker is undoubtedly vaccinated, as is probably most everybody else at Fox.

    The attitude of the vaccine hesitant right currently seems to be – we admit we are children. If you insist we wash our hands before eating we will yell and scream and refuse. We demand that you sit with us and speak in soothing tones, and watch our favorite cartoons with us, and listen to us go on about the magical Election Fraud Fairy we saw the other night, and then, perhaps, we’ll wash our hands.

    Victor (9ebafe)

  2. This problem isn’t driven by math, or process. This problem exists because a large group of people feel like taking the vaccine diminishes them. That doing so in an admission that the people who insulted them, disrespected their beliefs, and pushed them around are right.

    The fact that it’s being pushed by people they hate and distrust adds to the problem. Every time someone like me compares their thoughts about the vaccine to eating urinal cakes it makes them more resistant. What anyone that they feel looks down on them says doesn’t matter. What matters are statements made by leaders they trust. Not trust about math or science, but trust culturally. People they know are on their ‘side’ and respect them.

    That’s very much Tucker Carlson. As long as he’s ‘just asking questions’ and showing respect to really stupid ideas of the. anti-Vax this won’t change much. Trump’s recent message where he tired this to the conspiracy theory the election was stolen also made it harder.

    If I thought not mocking these losers would help I’d just shut up. But, compared to what their leaders say my input is like pissing into the wind with an empty bladder. So is our hosts (no offense intended). The NYT or WAPO have reach, but no influence with the anti-vax. Their first question isn’t “Did the speaker go to med school and have they studied this? is there a good reason to think they know what they’re about.” It’s “Does the speaker have a great track record of being on my tribe and do I feel like I generally trust them.”

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  3. i don’t watch tucker so i’d be interested in what specific vaccine misinformation he’s put out there, and the post offers none unless i missed it

    are we interested in everything that might be causing covid deaths, or just certain tucker things?

    i don’t know how many people tucker has killed through his free speech or individual free will

    i do know nobody seems to be asking how many people are being killed by unvaccinated future democrats migrants being let in across the border by an administration that takes the virus and the rule of law so very seriously

    which number do you think is higher?

    JF (e1156d)

  4. Should pressure by the administration lead to censorship by private companies? Or is Biden just another speaker in the public marketplace?

    As I understand it, the administration is trying to get Facebook et al to remove the anti-vaxx “misinformation.” While I, too, think it is misinformation I am concerned that next time it will be my truth that gets cut (e.g. guns can save lives) because powerful people don’t like it.

    Censorship by proxy is still censorship.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  5. One thing that might happen soon is that private and public institutions might insist on vaccinations to enter their premises. Some companies are making vaccination a condition of employment (and except for those with medical reasons or sincere religious objections, can do so at will).

    I wonder if colleges that accept student loan money or research grants can be made to require vaccinations. In the absence of a new law, maybe not; Trump had little success in conditioning federal money on immigration issues.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  6. i don’t know how many people tucker has killed through his free speech or individual free will

    As heir to the Swanson TeeVee Dinner fortune, he has certainly killed plenty of palettes. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  7. That doing so in an admission that the people who insulted them, disrespected their beliefs, and pushed them around are right.

    Yes. This is the core of it. And applying more pressure will result in more resistance and/or attempts to circumvent the pressure (such as bogus vaccine certificates).

    Were Trump president still, and were he pushing vaccinations (as he would since it favors him), Portland and Seattle would be hotbeds of anti-vaxx agitation, instead of Nashville and Biloxi. Tucker would be contemptuous of the anti-vaxxers and MSNBC would be defending them. Trump’s attempts to get Big Tech to block the disinformation would be compared to book burning by all right-thinking people.

    This is not a logical thing at all. Next: Why do people still smoke?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  8. It’s not one person or source – it’s a multitude of them.

    Now if Tucker Carlson argued the opposite – and didn’t sound like he was making a hostage video – that might move some people.

    But he’d have to know what he is talking about, and few people really really do.

    By the way, I think Senator Rand Paul does know what he is talking about, and in his repartee with Dr. Anthony Fauci, it was Rand Paul who was lying (because the definition of gain-of-function research is indeed very bad and does not cover what Rand Paul accused Dr. Fauci, correctly, of funding. The worst that Fauci can be accused of is contributing to the idea in China that certain lines of research were worth pursuing. But the research he supported – which after all was somewhat subject to audit – is not the way Covid could have been created)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  9. Patterico: this is hardly new. See https://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. It’s “Does the speaker have a great track record of being on my tribe and do I feel like I generally trust them.”

    It’s actually worse than that. If Ted Cruz came out and said “Get an effing vaccine” quite a few Trumpists would decide he’s gone RINO. This is a symptom of a much larger problem.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  11. Reaganaurics!!! Tucka is simply following the lead of the Conservative God:

    “A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions tell me that’s true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not.” – Ronald Reagan, March, 1987

    “The Devil made me do it!” – Geraldine [Flip Wilson] ‘The Flip Wilson Show’ NBC TV, 1970-74

    ____________

    ‘What leaders say matter. What presidents say matters. What leading media figures say matters.’

    ROFLMAOPIP! Except it doesn’t. Buyer’s remorse: live long enough and you learn that.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  12. Kevin, I think you’re broadly right, especially since there’s been a huge “crunchy” strain of anti science beliefs by left wing cretins. I think in this specific issue there are leaders for the left, such as Fauci, that would have helped bring along some of the left. But in this counter factual it’s impossible to say for sure.

    Regardless, dim witted hippies who mistakenly think rocks make good deodorant, raising awareness counts as doing something, and GMO food is bad for you aren’t the problem atm.

    Time123 (740b05)

  13. 5. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:10 am

    I wonder if colleges that accept student loan money or research grants can be made to require vaccinations.

    If it’s a private decision.

    But in doing so, these universities are being more Catholic than the Pope, so to speak. That the Food and Drug Administration hesitates to declare the vaccines safe and effective has been a great argument used by the anti-vaccers.

    I’ll tell you something else stupid they’re doing: Treating these expiration dates as real. It’s totally crazy.

    Or the timing of the second dose of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines as crucial. Now it would be bad to take a second dose too soon, but the later it is taken, up to at least six months, the better.

    The policy about second doses is what caused the New York Yankees to give its people the J&J vaccine because they didn’t have to worry about scheduling that way.

    Another stupidity: Calling a person who got the single dose J&J dose “fully vaccinated” but not a person who got a single dose of the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines, even though a single dose of the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines conveys stronger immunity than a single dose of the Johnson and Johnson.

    Another stupidity, or more likely, deliberate malfeasance: Not collecting and publishing statistics on what happens to people previously infected who get the vaccine. (best guess: a single dose of Phizer or Moderna adds somewhat to immunity resulting from most infections, but two doses, on the regular schedule, is pointless at best)

    And there’s something that’s more a lie than stupidity: Saying that anyone who do not get the vaccine, will get Covid if they didn’t already have it. That is mathematically equivalent to saying you don’t reach “herd immunity” till you reach 100%. But few people would place virtual herd immunity level above 95%

    80% may not be enough, though. In India about 6% got the vaccine and about tow thirds have been infected, and it’s not entirely over yet. (in general, people are underestimating the chances of getting Covid but overestimating the chances of getting really sick – and the dose of virus matters)

    And then there’s this: Reporting positive tests, but going much slower on the kind of case it is.

    And the quarantine policy. Boris Johnson got caught up in it and even withdrew from an “experimental” alternative. The United States doesn’t apply the same rules, so Kamala Harris is not quarantining.

    There’s a lot to dispute in the official statements, but what the typical anti-vaxxers say are much worse and often based on nothing true.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  14. Kevin’s reference regarding the ‘Jenny McCarthy types’ is quite valid.
    You have to make a distinction between the long-time hardcore ‘anti-vax crowd’ and general “folks” simply skeptical and/or suspicious of quickly cooked and rushed out one-two-and-now-perhaps-three-with booster-shot vaccines coupled with muddled and mixed messaging from the powers that be. You can thank Mr. Reagan for inoculating Righties with the, ‘I’m-from-the-government-and-I’m-here-to- help-you’ bug. Life experience should tell you this.

    For August, on Fauci Sci-Fi Theatre: ‘The Zeta Syndrome.’

    There’s a tablet for everything in America. Wait. For. The. Pill.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  15. Somebody’s butt hurt…but maybe it’s just some drunk Irish bonding, as DCSCA may describe it:
    https://news.yahoo.com/why-tom-bradys-gentle-roast-063040323.html

    urbanleftbehind (f1f6b4)

  16. Tucka’s an entertainer, just like you-know-who:

    “How can a president not be an actor?” – Ronald Reagan

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  17. @15. Mick-messaging? 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  18. no, i don’t think tucker is killing anyone

    if that were the case we’d see a different spread regarding other vaccines, the flu vaccine being the closest example

    pre-covid the flu vaccination rates among adults ranged from 41% to 56% depending on the state, and yes red states were on the low end

    i don’t think tucker was anti-flu vaccine

    what’s happening with covid is the same general vaccine hesitancy among largely the same people who have a distrust of government

    but let’s not let a crisis go to waste

    JF (e1156d)

  19. ‘Biden is right.’

    No. He’s a plagiarist.

    “Still, I think he’s [Biden] been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades.” – Robert Gates, former CIA & Defense Secretary serving Reagan, Obama, Dubya & Pappy Bush

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  20. so glad we finally have an administration taking covid and the rule of law seriously, unlike those other jackwagons

    JF (e1156d)

  21. ‘Tucker Carlson Is Almost Certainly Killing People’

    This pix kills =mike-drop= :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucker_Carlson#/media/File:Tucker_Carlson_at_the_Buckley_School.jpg

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  22. Cable for the flock.
    lmao

    mg (8cbc69)

  23. Ever the plagiarist, eh Joe?!

    The Whisperer

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Whisperer

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  24. By the way, I think Senator Rand Paul does know what he is talking about, and in his repartee with Dr. Anthony Fauci, it was Rand Paul who was lying (because the definition of gain-of-function research is indeed very bad and does not cover what Rand Paul accused Dr. Fauci, correctly, of funding. The worst that Fauci can be accused of is contributing to the idea in China that certain lines of research were worth pursuing. But the research he supported – which after all was somewhat subject to audit – is not the way Covid could have been created)

    Rand Paul, Martha Mccalum and The WaPo do an excellent job explaining the strawman Fauci dropped on you:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY7UoRQaq2Q

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  25. If Tucker is responsible for killing people, then Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are responsible for killing infinitely more people when they incepted the idea that the vaccine is political and shouldn’t be taken based upon which POTUS is pushing it.

    “If Donald Trump tells me to take the vaccine, I’m not taking it.” — Kamala Harris, October 7 2020.

    Now the very same people are demanding that right leaning personalities (Tucker, Hannity, Trump, deSantis, Abbott, etc) harangue their audiences to get the vaccine even though they spent the past 4 years explicitly telling us they couldn’t be trusted on anything, especially and specifically vaccines.

    Sorry, but you can’t wash the blood off the current administration’s hands.

    SaveFarris (6139a3)

  26. Good news, ‘Fauci Sci-Fi Theatre’ Fans: a fresh greek drama debuts in Texas!

    Lambda Variant of COVID-19 identified at Texas hospital. Is it worse than Delta?

    A Houston hospital has its first case of the lambda variant of the coronavirus, but public health experts say it remains too soon to tell whether the variant will rise to the same level of concern as the delta variant currently raging across unvaccinated communities in the U.S. -USAToday.com

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lambda-variant-of-covid-19-identified-at-texas-hospital-is-it-worse-than-delta/ar-AAMpvyt

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  27. Patterico,

    I must commend you on this post. Your write in such a way that your points really pack a wallop. It must be the prosecutor in you. :)

    norcal (a6130b)

  28. if that were the case we’d see a different spread regarding other vaccines, the flu vaccine being the closest example

    Here’s a chart of what happened with the MMR vaccine in the late 90’s after the fraudulent autism claim:

    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/media/images/autism-vaccine-myth-01.width-800.jpg

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  29. Lambda Variant of COVID-19 identified at Texas hospital. Is it worse than Delta?

    What happened to epsilon, zeta, eta, theta, iota and kappa?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  30. Maybe they didn’t make it past the Wuhan Labs marketing group.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  31. Has Tucker ever said whether he got the vaccine? If not, it’s further proof he shouldn’t be taken seriously.

    norcal (a6130b)

  32. ‘I must commend you on this post. Your write in such a way that your points really pack a wallop. It must be the prosecutor in you.’ :)

    Consider this, norcal- he is a good writer, but one guy has had multiple media & cable network shows-the current one w/3 million domestic viewers nightly and even profits off frozen dinners invented to eat while watching same; the other is at home w/Twitter, quills a pay-to-view opinion newsletter – and a fine, fun blog. Maybe there’s some chumming for a flip; don’t think he’d turn down the cable gig… 😉

    Ex-Fox News Reporter Rips Tucker Carlson: ‘Leading Lemmings To Their Own Slaughter’

    Carl Cameron slammed the Fox News personality’s “gaslighting” and “propaganda” over COVID-19 vaccines.

    “Former Fox News reporter Carl Cameron on Monday called out Tucker Carlson’s doubtful diatribes against COVID-19 vaccines, saying his ex-colleague at the conservative network was “gaslighting” viewers for ratings and revenue.

    “It’s about ratings and ratings ultimately become revenue, and that’s the name of the game,” Cameron told CNN’s “New Day” about personalities on Fox and other hyperpartisan media outlets that have questioned the shots. Vaccine resistance has now become a GOP rallying cry, even though the shots have been shown safe and effective.” – source, https://www.huffpost.com/entry/carl-cameron-tucker-carlson-fox-news-covid-19-vaccine_n_60f66ec5e4b09f2b238656dd

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  33. @32. Don’t worry about Tucka, norcal— after a diet of Swanson frozen TeeVee dinners, your body is fortified w/enough additives and preservatives to protect you from all plagues of Nature– except death. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  34. What happened to epsilon, zeta, eta, theta, iota and kappa?

    WHO Tracking SARS-CoV-2 variants

    Variants of Interest-Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta

    Variants of Concern-Eta, Iota, Kappa, Lambda

    CDC SARS-CoV-2 Variant Classifications and Definitions

    Variants of Interest-Epsilon, Eta, Iota, Kappa

    Variants of Concern-Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  35. @30. ‘Lambda Variant’ sounds like the name of some bimbette in the next ‘Austin Powers’ flick, Kevin.

    “Oh beeehave!” – Austin Powers [Mike Myers] ‘The Spy Who Shagged Me’ 1999

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  36. There will probably not be variants named zeta or theta since the words sound too much like Eta, which has already been used.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  37. My view is that Covid wasn’t dangerous enough, only killed 600,000+ Americans in a year and a vaccine(s) were miracle in too quickly. It didn’t collapse the economy enough.

    It wasn’t as bad as those movies and TV shows. Although it’s not far off of Contagion, that movie got it pretty spot on, but it wasn’t quite that bad.

    It wasn’t end of the world alien invasion sun going nova level event. So it couldn’t break through the fever swamps of doing anything to “own the libs” even killing grandma.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  38. Started dipping into a little Tucka after P’s observations some weeks back.

    Odd bewildering stare he has… but the tell of the twit: the laugh. Have slammed preppies into their lockers years ago for less. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  39. OT:

    “Crime is down. Gun violence and murder is up.” – President lagiarist, CNN Town Hall, Cleveland, OH 7-21-21

    Idiot.

    He’s not all there; he’s a hologram.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  40. @33 In a sane world, Patterico would receive 100 times more attention than Tucker Carlson.

    norcal (a6130b)

  41. @34 I can’t remember the last time I had a TV dinner, but it was probably in the 80s.

    norcal (a6130b)

  42. @38 You know what would break through, Klink? Allowing insurance companies to deny coverage, and hospitals to refuse admission, for the unvaccinated (unless they have a valid medical excuse or can pay cash up front).

    Watch how fast these folks get with the program if they have to gamble with their own money.

    norcal (a6130b)

  43. He’s telling his audience what they want to hear, and he is doing them a favor. An existential favor. They may baa nastily, but they’re still sheep:

    “Peacefully they will die, peacefully they will expire in Thy name, and beyond the grave they will find nothing but death. But we shall keep the secret, and for their happiness we shall allure them with the reward of heaven and eternity.”
    ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Grand Inquisitor

    nk (1d9030)

  44. nk, that reminds me of what my uncle used to say when it came to those who did and those who did not believe in an afterlife. To wit: nobody is going to be disappointed.

    norcal (a6130b)

  45. Tucker is back at it, this time with Charlie Kirk as a guest, saying that encouraging people to get a jab is “virtue signaling”.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  46. I hate to link to MediaMatters, but Ms. Ramirez has a good summary of Tucker’s unhinged comments about CV19 and vaccines. Some examples:

    • Carlson spun a bizarre conspiracy theory about Bill Gates and the director general of the World Health Organization making a COVID-19 vaccine mandatory as part of an effort to enact “mass social control.” He said the goal would be to advance a global climate change agenda and to cover up for the Chinese government’s response to the pandemic. [Media Matters, 9/14/20; Fox News, Tucker Carlson Tonight, 8/24/20]

    • Tucker Carlson claimed the vaccine distribution plan is “eugenics” against white people. Falsly claiming that the CDC was basing it’s strategy for the vaccine distribution entirely on race. [Fox News, Tucker Carlson Tonight, 12/18/20]

    • Carlson interviewed Dr. Hooman Noorchashm, who said vaccine promotion could end with “burning and looting and climbing up the walls of the United States Congress.” [Fox News, Tucker Carlson Tonight, 4/2/21]

    • Carlson speculated to viewers that the COVID-19 vaccine “doesn’t work and they’re simply not telling you that.” [Fox News, Tucker Carlson Tonight, 4/13/21]

    • Carlson inaccurately asserted that thousands of people have died after receiving the COVID-19 vaccination, telling viewers that this could be “the single deadliest mass vaccination event in modern history.” [Fox News, Tucker Carlson Tonight, 5/5/21]

    There’s more. Yes, I do believe that Carlson is killing a number of his gullible viewers.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  47. Watch how fast these folks get with the program if they have to gamble with their own money.

    I think that works only if there is one with full FDA approval. But 30 seconds later, I’m in.

    It’s like Plastic surgery, if you chose to not get the free vaccine, you can have all the Covid treatment you can afford.

    There’d be exceptions, but those would be the actual exceptions. I have a cousin who got lyme disease and it kicked off a cascade of other things unlike anything else I’ve ever heard of. Basically, if she get’s Covid, dead, vaccine, dead, flu, dead, tainted Wendy’s chili…so Wendy’s chili dead.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  48. If you don’t feel like reading the entire Brothers Karamazov, “The Grand Inquisitor” chapter can be read as a stand-alone. It’s basically Calvinism but with a twist: “There are reprobates but it’s not kind to tell them that they’re damned. Tell them that what they’re doing is right and that they will be fine … just fine.”

    nk (1d9030)

  49. Tucker is back at it, this time with Charlie Kirk as a guest, saying that encouraging people to get a jab is “virtue signaling”.

    Yes, it’s signaling you have virtue. That those two Nazi’s add air quotes to virtue, I’m taking them away from Nazi.

    Friggin’ Nazi scum.

    Sometimes its worth the fine if you see him in public and just drop kick his tiny raisons. I’d say punching is too good for him, and really, it can hurt your hand.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  50. Paul,

    Thank you for those just-in-time links about Carlson. They help with a discussion I’m having.

    norcal (a6130b)

  51. That’s too bad about your cousin, Klink. All the more reason for people who can get the vaccine to get it.

    norcal (a6130b)

  52. You’re welcome!

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  53. @38 You know what would break through, Klink? Allowing insurance companies to deny coverage, and hospitals to refuse admission, for the unvaccinated (unless they have a valid medical excuse or can pay cash up front).

    Watch how fast these folks get with the program if they have to gamble with their own money.

    norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:17 pm

    Yeah, I can’t see any slippery slope there at all.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  54. 42. I can’t remember the last time I had a TV dinner, but it was probably in the 80s.

    And it was probably frozen in the 70s– just like President Plagiarist.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  55. https://redstate.com/mike_miller/2021/07/21/40-border-patrol-agents-test-positive-in-texas-as-number-of-covid-positive-migrants-continues-to-explode-n414234

    Anthony Fauci continues to lecture America about vaccinations. Joe Biden bizarrely accuses Facebook of “killing people” with COVID “misinformation.” Meanwhile, the number of COVID-positive illegal aliens streaming across the border continues to explode — including a 900 percent increase in July, alone. Forty Rio Grande Valley Sector Border Patrol agents have tested positive, including five who were hospitalized.

    Democrat priorities, America.

    As Fox News reported on Wednesday, Rio Grande Valley Sector Chief Patrol Agent Brian Hastings told KURV radio in McAllen, Texas, that just during the first two weeks in July, 135 migrants being detained tested positive for the coronavirus — marking the 900 percent increase over the previous 14 months. Just in the Rio Grande Valley Sector.

    Biden is almost certainly killing people. Who is President again?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  56. Yeah, I can’t see any slippery slope there at all.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:30 pm

    Do you think that vaccinated people should subsidize Covid treatment for those who refuse the vaccine without a valid medical reason?

    norcal (a6130b)

  57. @56 Funny, DCSCA! (Although, I could do without the jab at Biden.)

    norcal (a6130b)

  58. @57 All of the above, Rob. Vaccinations AND border enforcement.

    norcal (a6130b)

  59. Do you think that vaccinated people should subsidize Covid treatment for those who refuse the vaccine without a valid medical reason?

    norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:06 pm

    I’m vaccinated, but my Biden-voting, Democrat-registered wife is not. I’m perfectly fine with her being subsidized by myself, you, and every other vaccinated individual.

    And do you really think such a vindictive, rejection-obsessed policy will be limited to just COVID infections?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  60. This is a pretty detailed interview with Dr. Peter A. McCullough, Professor of Medicine, Texas A & M College of Medicine, Baylor Dallas Campus and Tucker hasn’t been mentioned:

    https://www.redvoicemedia.com/2021/07/dr-peter-mccullough-urgent-warning-about-poisonous-jabs-an-agonizing-situation/

    I imagine there is some problem with the interviewer and the content can be conveniently dismissed for simplistic unrelated reasons. But I am a sucker for what this apparently highly qualified doctor is saying. That doesn’t mean I fully endorse what he is saying. I just think telling him to shut up because “Tucker” would be the hallmark of disingenuous.

    Anyways, I hope everyone here, including Dana and Patterico give this a listen in its entirety. This is a more likely reason that people are hesitant, IMO.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  61. FWO,

    It’s not vindictive. It’s treating people like grownups, and letting them own the consequences of their choices. The rejecters are the ones who reject the vaccine.

    It might not be limited to just Covid infections. Insurance companies may propose charging a higher premium for smokers or overweight people. I’m fine with that. We already disincentivize bad behavior when it comes to the price of automobile insurance premiums.

    norcal (a6130b)

  62. It’s not vindictive. It’s treating people like grownups, and letting them own the consequences of their choices. The rejecters are the ones who reject the vaccine.

    This ground has already been well-covered. I’m fine with insurance companies, including the government, rejecting people who didn’t take a COVID vaccination as long as they do the same with every fat person with diabetes who has to take insulin or needs a quadruple bypass. If we’re going to enact such a draconian policy, it should apply to any medical treatment where personal choice came in to play.

    It might not be limited to just Covid infections. Insurance companies may propose charging a higher premium for smokers or overweight people. I’m fine with that. We already disincentivize bad behavior when it comes to the price of automobile insurance premiums.

    Then we should enact your policy for every single bad medical decision ever made.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  63. @64 I agree with your first paragraph. The second was a little too reductio ad absurdum.

    norcal (a6130b)

  64. @64 I agree with your first paragraph. The second was a little too reductio ad absurdum.

    norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:06 pm

    Your proposal isn’t going to happen regardless, so I doubt either of us will get our wish.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  65. Jewish Deplorable
    @TrumpJew2
    Biden: “You’re not gonna get COVID if you get vaccinated”

    (He says this as fully vaccinated WH staff are testing positive)

    https://twitter.com/TrumpJew2/status/1418000943786962952

    Sounds like he had quite the Townhall.

    I will see to wait for the transcript before I condemn his remarks based off the video clip at the link, but if the context is correct then I see another big whopping reason that people might be hesitant.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  66. I will wait for the transcript…

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  67. Your proposal isn’t going to happen regardless, so I doubt either of us will get our wish.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:11 pm

    Of course it won’t happen. Most of the ideas discussed on this blog won’t happen. Such is the fate of wonks.

    norcal (a6130b)

  68. I haven’t listened to McCullough, but I do know that he’s on Orac’s anti-vax sh-t list, with good reason, particularly when the doctor is claiming the vaccine to be part of some depopulation agenda.
    Stew Peters is the full-blown crank who trafficked in the nonsense that the vaccines are magnetic, and that vaccines are part of “the most calculated mass murder ever orchestrated against global citizens in the history of the world.”

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  69. Paul, I can’t understand why actual MDs peddle this crap. Is ordinary medicine so boring that they’ll say anything to get in the spotlight?

    norcal (a6130b)

  70. This ground has already been well-covered. I’m fine with insurance companies, including the government, rejecting people who didn’t take a COVID vaccination as long as they do the same with every fat person with diabetes who has to take insulin or needs a quadruple bypass. If we’re going to enact such a draconian policy, it should apply to any medical treatment where personal choice came in to play.

    Except that one is a simple choice, involving no bother at all other that getting their head out of their ass, and the other involve significant changes in living and may not really be possible for some.

    BTW, obesity and addiction often have little “personal choice” involved. Genetics and psychiatry play a bigger role. But since you’ve not experienced either of these, you have only your assumptions to work with.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  71. Then we should enact your policy for every single bad medical decision ever made.

    Not getting a shot is a “bad medical decision” much the same as “running with scissors” is.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  72. Great illustration of why ppl should get the vaccine.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  73. Here’s a link to a study linking Fox viewership to lower vaccination ratings. Doesn’t mention Tucker by name. Study is linked I the Twitter thread

    https://twitter.com/matteopins/status/1417594280764391424?s=21

    Time123 (4258aa)

  74. I haven’t listened to McCullough,… Stew Peters is the full-blown crank

    Pretty much how I predicted the conversation to go.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  75. Kevin, my employer provided insurance includes a discount for non-smoking. My previous employer would give us 1,500$ if we did things that included a physical, attending a yoga class, class on nutrition, etc. there was a list and I think we had to pick 3, but I’m not sure.

    Point is that we’ve already started modest behavior incentives with health insurance.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  76. “Pretty much how I predicted the conversation to go.”

    But did you read Paul’s attached article? I’ll add another below. McCullough’s claim that vaccinations are a way to mark people and control behavior seems a little bit out of his area of expertise, which is cardiology. The problem here is that science by youtube is somewhat questionable. Peer review is the gold standard….standing up to scrutiny of your peers and answering hard questions with solid evidence or supportable theories….or not. This is why the media should be double careful to market opinions that are not widely accepted in the medical community. I’m a little nervous when McCullough claims that he could have saved all of these suffering covid people if only they had gotten his special cocktail of treatment, which invariably includes hydroxychloroquine. Hey, science is a battle of evidence….and careful reasoning…..McCullough can either persuade other medical experts or he can’t. Going on Tucker Carlson allows him to bypass that approval…and be interviewed by someone who does not have the expertise to ask hard questions. It should trigger an alarm…..

    https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/vaccines-are-a-safer-alternative-for-acquiring-immunity-compared-to-natural-infection-and-covid-19-survivors-benefit-from-getting-vaccinated-contrary-to-claims-by-peter-mccullough/

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  77. Sundown you better take care
    If he finds you been talkin’ to CornPop again…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHWUyXPpVEQ

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  78. @77, Buduh Audi is tough. most ppl read much faster then the spoken word. So an audio takes far longer to engage then a transcript. An article is even faster since it will have been edited to be concise. The other problem with the audio is how much is communicated with tone and amount of focus. For all of that it’s hard to engage with audio and most people need a good reason; it’s entertaining, it’s highly credible, the speaker or their POV can only be accessed there etc.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  79. But did you read Paul’s attached article?

    I did. Orac, in his lengthy wordsmithing and high and mighty tone said: “ Peter McCullough, who’s known for pushing a narrative of a COVID-19 “vaccine holocaust.” .” I followed his hyperlink that was his self-source and found this:

    Let’s get back to a core claim in this narrative, namely that the number of deaths reported to VAERS since the mass vaccination campaign with COVID-19 vaccines began in mid-December means that the vaccines are causing a “vaccine holocaust”. Sure, Dr. McCullough didn’t use that word, but Mike Adams and others aren’t so reserved, and the article featuring the interview with Dr. McCullough was titled “COVID vaccine killing huge numbers, warns leading doctor“.

    I found most of his other annoyances to be with the hosts of the various shows and I found several inaccuracies between the videos and his interpretations. In a nutshells he doesn’t like McCullough and he will use any tool he has to convince others of the same.

    I will take a look at your article as well, AJ, but I lack the time to have this extended debate.

    BTW, did you finish the video at my link? What are your personal thoughts?

    BuDuh (829305)

  80. I have no clue as to what point you are making, Time.

    BuDuh (829305)

  81. @83, if you post audi from a crazy pants podcast don’t be surprised if people don’t agave deeply with it.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  82. AJ, your link wants me to go through a captcha process to access their archive to see the video they criticize. If you wouldn’t mind finding the actual video and posting it, I would appreciate it. I do not have the time to make troublesome links more accessible just to scrutinize them. Spending my time reading and watching everyone else’s links should be commitment enough.

    Thanks.

    BuDuh (829305)

  83. Stew Peters had to go to Rumble because Facebook/YouTube banned him for his conspiracy theories and lies, and McCullough made the deliberate decision to go on that guy’s format.
    It’s startling to me how many otherwise highly educated people like McCullough go this route. The debunked Plandemic video had an MD on it, for example.
    A good friend of mine is 70 years old and college-educated, but he won’t get a vaccine because he fell for the anti-vax stupidity, passing on the Plandemic video before it was shoved off. His reasoning is not too different from Ron Johnson’s (he even looks a little like him), that he’s asking the questions and wants all the information to come out. The real question is where he’s getting his “information”, such as when he alleged fraud and machine-rigging in Antrim County.
    There is definitely a media ecosystem out there and it is not healthy. We have a couple other friends who became complete QAnon nutters, reminding Mrs. Montagu and me from time to time that “the storm is coming”.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  84. Ahh. “Shoot the messenger.” I should have guessed that, since I did predict that.

    I do have to run.

    BuDuh (829305)

  85. In a sane world, Patterico would receive 100 times more attention than Tucker Carlson.

    Uh, no. Patterico argues logically, from facts. This is unappealing to many for the same reasons that Brutus’ principled arguments against Caesar could not overcome Marc Antony’s frothy eulogy.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  86. agave

    Ahh… margaritas in the morning…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  87. State-by-state look at colleges requiring COVID-19 vaccines

    Interesting. My alma mater, which draws significant numbers of students from Asia, is on the list. Given that vaccine penetration in Asia is poor (and much of it is a 3rd-rate Chinese vaccine), I wonder how this will work. Perhaps they will allow early entry and vaccination here.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  88. Point is that we’ve already started modest behavior incentives with health insurance.

    Oh, no doubt. I just disagree with the comparison of “getting a shot” with “quitting smoking.” I’ve done both and one was easier than the other. Not to mention losing double-digit percentages of body mass.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  89. Currently, the federal government coerces insurers to waive co-pays and deductibles in Covid-related treatments. Doctors and hospitals, too, for the uninsured. The feds pay for all vaccinations.

    At some point they will have to stop doing this. Why not stop with the unvaccinated first? It was done as an emergency measure, but the emergency is over and we now are dealing with people who willfully remain in harm’s way.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  90. As for Tucker:

    I would like to see him sued, as a class-action, by the survivors of those viewers who refused the vaccine on the basis of his statements and subsequently got Covid and died. See “Joe Camel” for precedent.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  91. Kevin, I think it also shows a pattern that these types of incentives are applied in a rational way.

    For instance it’s “Not Lose 10% of your weight”. It’s “take a class on nutrition”

    Time123 (4258aa)

  92. @60 well gee, that solves that problem

    except you’d have to tune in to fox news to hear anything about the latter

    what a dilemma

    JF (e1156d)

  93. Ahh. “Shoot the messenger.” I should have guessed that, since I did predict that.

    Yes, BuDuh, I am shooting Stew Peters the crank messenger. I fully admit it.
    You may do it differently, but I vet sources to ascertain their credibility. The question is why you didn’t.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  94. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:20 pm

    What happened to epsilon, zeta, eta, theta, iota and kappa?

    They are not as contagious, and Delta is immunizing people against them.

    Alpha is what used to be called the UK variant but now almost every single case there is delta. The UK has reached at least partial immunity of about 92% of the population. The proportion of people who are hospitalized who are young has gone up, but the death rate of those hospitalized has gone down.

    Here are the new and the old names:

    Alpha – B.1.1.7 – first detected in UK
    Beta – B.1.351 – South Africa
    Gamma – P.1 – Brazil
    Delta – B.1.617.2 – India
    Epsilon – B.1.427/B.1.429 – USA
    Zeta – P.2 – Brazil
    Eta – B.1.525 – multiple countries
    Theta P.3 – Philippines
    Iota – B.1.526 – USA
    Kappa – B.1.617.1 – India

    – From the June 1, 2021 Independent.

    Lambda was first detected in Peru in December 2020, it’s predominant in Spanish speaking South America) and in a traveler in hotel quarantine in New South Wales in April but apparently took longer to get its letter and wasn’t on the original Greek slphabet list.

    They may not watching epsilon, zeta, and theta any more, but only eta, iota, kappa and lambda, in addition to alpha, beta, gamma and delta and the original. Or maybe mostly it’s just Alpha, Delta, and Kappa.

    I think there were two variants originally that came out of China, from two different lab leaks. The first one was milder and spread further in China.

    But it almost all delta now, or quickly becoming so, at least in areas where there has been substantial vaccination.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  95. 93. It’s much bigger than Tucker, and anti-vaccination arguments long ago achiieved escape velocity.

    Who would sue him? Pfizer?

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  96. 97. And then there’s Delta+

    https://thelatch.com.au/covid-variant-names-delta-plus

    It’s a mutation of Delta with spike protein variations known as K417N that is concerning scientists for its ability to dodge the bodies natural immune response. It could well be more transmissible as well as making our current treatment methods less effective against it.

    The reason it’s known as Delta Plus is because it’s not different enough to warrant its own letter but needs to be identified as a more aggressive strain of Delta.

    Delta Plus is not reported as more infectious, but when you get it, it’s worse, for a while – the body takes longer to generate an effective immune response. I think this is maybe what was earlier called the “double mutaton” – in any case it was associated with Nepal and was called AY.1. The K417N mutation is also present in beta (South Africa) and is a lysine-to-asparagine substitution at position 417.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  97. Here are some statistics from the United Kingdom:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/opening-its-economy-as-delta-variant-surges-the-u-k-becomes-a-covid-19-test-case-11626884725

    Daily cases in January: 60.000

    6=day average of new cases July 20: 47,700 – 2 1/2 times the number at the end of June and 14 times the number at the end of May. Health Secretary Sajid Javid, who may being counted as one of these July cases, on spite pf being vaccinated, says the number may top 100,000 within weeks. Weeks?

    Daily hospital admissions in January: 4,000

    Daily hospital admissions now: around 600.

    Daily deaths in January: More than 1,200

    Daily deaths now: around 40.

    Deaths per hospital admission January: 1,200/4,000 or 30%

    Deaths per hospital admission now: 40/600 or 6.7%

    Numerator and denominator may not correspond.

    Deaths possibly heading to 200 or 300 a day.

    14% if hospital admissions are people in their 50s who are considered fully vaccinated (the UK possibilities include a weak vaccine) and 45% of deaths are of people in their 50s who have been fully vaccinated – it seems to say.

    Two thirds of adults are considered fully vaccinated in the UK and 60% in the USA. 92& of adults in the UK are at least partially vaccinated or had a past infection.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  98. What killed people was the delay in approving vaccines and medical treatments last year.

    The approval process had such conditions so that a vaccine could not, pretty much mathematically, get approved even for emergency use unless many more people died, because without many people getting sick, it would be impossible to prove, with enough statistical power to satisfy regulators, that the vaccines were more effective than the placebos were.

    People learned from the vaccine hesitancy of the FDA to doubt the value or fear the danger of vaccines.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  99. But it almost all delta now, or quickly becoming so, at least in areas where there has been substantial vaccination.

    For the same reason that the virus that spreads is never the one immunized against: vaccines work.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  100. People learned from the vaccine hesitancy of the FDA to doubt the value or fear the danger of vaccines.

    On the Enterprise, whenever Dr McCoy synthesized a vaccine against something he tried it on himself, and if he didn’t die immediately he gave it to everyone else.

    Why? Because the absence of a vaccine was worse.

    I think there’s something to be learned from that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  101. norcal @59-

    @56 Funny, DCSCA! (Although, I could do without the jab at Biden.)

    Jabbing Biden is the reason for DCSCA’s existence.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  102. I think the vaccine has been marketed poorly. We’ve tried to use logical methods to get people to accept it when it is quite clear from people like Tucker that we should be using anything but.

    Example: Don’t make it free. Make it $500. The affluent will make a beeline for it as it has both value and exclusivity. In no time at all, some do-gooders will sue and a court will order it made available to all. At which point, people are getting a $500 vaccine for free and sticking it to the Man. Line forms to the left.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  103. Jabbing Biden is the reason for DCSCA’s existence.

    Well, Nixon and Reagan, too.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  104. Texas has seen nearly 9,000 COVID-19 deaths since February. All but 43 were unvaccinated people.

    Of the 8,787 people who have died in Texas due to COVID-19 since early February, at least 43 were fully vaccinated, the Texas Department of State Health Services said.

    That means 99.5% of people who died due to COVID-19 in Texas from Feb. 8 to July 14 were unvaccinated, while 0.5% were the result of “breakthrough infections,” which DSHS defines as people who contracted the virus two weeks after being fully vaccinated.
    …….
    As of Monday, 42.8% of Texans have been fully vaccinated; the state continues to lag behind the national vaccination rate of 48.8%, according to the Mayo Clinic.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  105. Yes, BuDuh, I am shooting Stew Peters the crank messenger. I fully admit it.
    You may do it differently, but I vet sources to ascertain their credibility. The question is why you didn’t.

    That comment was to Time. Sorry it triggered you.

    Anyways, I go to the actual source. That is how I know what your expert misrepresented. You, in reality, didn’t bother with that kind of thoroughness and our conversations fail as a result. I will put no more effort into trying with you. Please continue with your moral high ground lectures without me.

    BuDuh (829305)

  106. How would I know you were answering T123, BuDuh. You didn’t reference his name and your comment was right after mine, six minutes later.
    Please tell me how I failed this “thoroughness” test of yours. Orac was actually responding to a different video (where McCullough was being interviewed by a John Birch crank), but the general anti-vax themes were there, including his misrepresentation of VAERS.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  107. 25.

    Rand Paul, Martha Mccalum and The WaPo do an excellent job explaining the strawman Fauci dropped on you:

    Yes, I know all that (except for the detail aout the NIH definition.

    Rand Paul knows that Dr. Fauci did not come up with that limited definition of gain-of-function research now, but back during the Obama Administration, so it is a legitimate, even if paradoxical sounding and even crazy distinction. (like outlawing dum dum bullets only against soldiers)

    According to his definition, which had important legal consequences from 2014 to 2017, gain-of-function research is making a virus that can infect humans more infectious; but making a virus that only infects animals capable of infecting humans is not.

    And it also true that the research he funded did not create Covid-19, although the idea behind it could have. (The Chinese also did their own, secret, research. All the time.)

    Josh Rogan has it good:

    https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/1417609272427483145

    Josh Rogin
    @joshrogin

    Hey guys, @RandPaul was right and Fauci was wrong. The NIH was funding gain of function research in Wuhan but NIH pretended it didn’t meet their “gain of function” definition to avoid their own oversight mechanism. SorryNotSorry if that doesn’t fit your favorite narrative.

    5:16 PM · Jul 20, 2021·TweetDeck

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  108. 102. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:06 am

    For the same reason that the virus that spreads is never the one immunized against: vaccines work.

    So what is the official public health messaging?

    People should get vaccinated in order to prevent the emergence of a variant which will be worse.

    Worse in what way? The vaccine won’t work?! Or what?

    The idea is, the fewer cases, the fewer opportunities to mutate. Not that you’d get rid of it in all of the world by vaccinating everybody in the USA.

    And what happened to the theory of overuse of antibiotics?

    BTW: The vaccines, even though they are all made against a variant that may have disappeared, is around 90% as good against Delta. That’s because there is much less mutation than is the case with the flu.

    Updating the vaccine has all sorts of regulatory burdens and is time consuming (scientifically, it’s very simple and fast – slower to manufacture) but the vaccine companies will try, in the guise of providing a booster shot.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  109. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:10 am

    On the Enterprise, whenever Dr McCoy synthesized a vaccine against something he tried it on himself, and if he didn’t die immediately he gave it to everyone else.

    Why? Because the absence of a vaccine was worse.

    I think there’s something to be learned from that.

    This is the way they did things from about 1880 to 1950 and it seeped into popular culture.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  110. There are two ways they could have used to validate the vaccine

    1. They could have used a proxy marker (the same not so good thing they are doing with the ineffective Akzheimmer;s drug)

    In the cae of vaccines, antibodies, which is a good proxy. We shouldn’t suspect big surprises.

    2. They could ave deliberately infected some very healthy people people with a little of the virus –

    Ethically suspect, especially since there was no standard cure. They don’t do that with prison volunteers now even.

    As for preliminary safety testing – the vaccine companies did that, and there doesn’t seem to be a way to avid the phase 1 trials. Well, they can test it on a variety of animals.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  111. I’ll have to watch the video later….life as intervened

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  112. @Buduh, I didn’t know that was at me. You’re wrong, shooting the messenger is when you attack someone for bringing you bad news that’s correct. That’s not what I did. I was trying to point out that people aren’t going to put a lot of work into debunking crank ideas.

    The anti-vax position isn’t flat earth stupid. But it’s in that ballpark. No one feels much obligation to treat it seriously

    Time123 (4258aa)

  113. Katherine Schoonover
    @Katherine_VA
    If the Democrats wanted people to think that they were involved in the unleashing of covid on the world then this was the way to do it.

    *************************
    Chuck Callesto
    @ChuckCallesto
    · Jul 21
    BREAKING REPORT: House Democrats Block Bill to Declassify Intel on ORGINS OF COVID-19 Virus…

    https://twitter.com/Katherine_VA/status/1417953453960273929

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  114. I’m sure the Democrats have their reasons…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  115. https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210507/The-ancestor-of-SARS-CoV-2e28099s-Wuhan-strain-was-circulating-in-late-October-2019.aspx

    …Especially remarkable is the fact that all known early SARS-CoV-2 genomes from humans (up to January 2020) vary by less than 30 bases. Conversely, the most closely related non-human coronaviruses differ by over a thousand bases….

    ….MOA [Mutation Order Approach] was employed on two sets of SARS‐CoV‐2 genomes, comprising almost 30,000 and 68,000 genomes, respectively, on two days three months apart. By tracing the mutational trail, inferred from the second genome set, they were able to understand how the virus is undergoing changes in different regions and at different times. They were able to track back to the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of SARS-CoV-2….

    ….This progenitor viral genome has three bases that differ from the Wuhan strains. The researchers think that both the Wuhan and other of the earliest genomes to be sampled were actually variants of the progenitor coronavirus (CoV), which diverged into ν and α lineages.

    The Wuhan strain underwent three consecutive mutations, α1, α2, and α3, but these are not found in the closely related CoVs, all of which have the same base at these three positions. The ν variants of the progenitor CoV do not show the other 47 variants at these positions, making them unlikely to be the ancestral lineage for the Wuhan-1 virus or other early samples. The first ν mutant was picked up almost two months after the Wuhan-1 strain.

    There were multiple occurrences of the progenitor CoV, both in China and the USA, from January 2020 onwards. Synonymous progenitor CoV samples were found in many other samples collected within two weeks of the Wuhan-1 strain.

    While these were mostly Chinese and Asian (almost 90/130), they were found in all continents sampled and persisted up to April 2020 in Europe.

    These findings suggest that the progenitor CoV was already spreading extensively before and after the first official reports of the emergence of a novel coronavirus in China. In other words, the Wuhan-1 strain is unlikely to be the original SARS-CoV-2 ancestor from which all currently circulating strains are derived.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  116. There are two ways they could have used to validate the vaccine

    3) They could have given the vaccine to every nursing home patient, on the theory that they were at great risk anyway.

    4) They could have given the vaccine to every incarcerated felon, offering them a term reduction if they agreed.

    5) 3 & 4

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  117. Or, they could just have said: “We think this vaccine is good. We’re pretty sure it won’t kill you. We might be wrong. Who wants it?”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  118. So what is the official public health messaging?

    Every flu season we hear the same idiotic whine: “I don’t want the flu shot because it never covers the strains that people get.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  119. I think you would worry about the vaccine being too much for very old and fragile people.

    Here is something about breakthrough cases:

    https://slate.com/technology/2021/07/covid-delta-variant-risk-vaccinated-breakthrough-cases.html

    He might have had a mild case, as Covid cases go.

    My colleague said he could not imagine describing the illness he had experienced as anything other than “severe”—he was unable to do anything for 36 hours and said it was on par with having debilitating food poisoning. But when I asked a couple doctors about this, they disagreed with his ranking. “Technically, it sounds like he had a mild bout of COVID-19, by strict case definitions,” emergency physician and sometime Slate contributor Jeremy Samuel Faust wrote to me. “Mild does not mean pleasant. In fact, you can have fever, chills, body aches, and feel downright terrible for a week or more and still be categorized as ‘mild.’ ”….If the “mild” cases of COVID that can break through are more severe than the colds we used to accept as a normal consequence of traveling, that is worth being clear about. So, yes: Vaccines greatly reduce the severity of illness. But you can still get very sick, in layman’s terms. It can be much more than a sniffle.

    This does not say or speculate about what vaccine he got, and when, or what he and others might have been exposed to. (how much virus and what kind.)

    He also probably did not treat it.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  120. @104/106 Reminding conservatives who abandoned their party and voted for the lying, brain-damaged persona of the near-dead plagiarist or an alternative over the sordid persona of his opponent and his bull-in-a-china-shop lifestyle– simply because they didn’t like him, deserves poking. And, for norCal, so do Angie, Linda… and Joan. 😉

    “That’s quite a stab, from old flab.” – Bob Hope ‘Road To Hong Kong’ 1962

    ______

    Kevin, GOP conservatives need reminded, blamed or smacked w/a newspaper on the snout for their part in the damage they have done creating the hellish world of modern American society on so many levels and acknowledge responsibility for it. Or they’ll keep getting their noses rubbed into the carpet like a bad puppy peeing on it a well. They railed again FDR well for decades– well into the 1970s–as blame for all the national woes… 32 of the past 52 years have been GOP/conservative administrations w/GOP CiC’s. So stop whining– or jut stop peeing– on Uncle Sam’s carpet. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  121. @123 When it. comes to your taste in women, DCSCA, you’re batting .666, which leads to another thought…:)

    norcal (a6130b)

  122. @123 When it comes to your taste in women, DCSCA, you’re batting .666, which is a very interesting number…

    norcal (a6130b)

  123. Sorry for the duplication. There was some glitch in Word Press, I think.

    norcal (a6130b)

  124. Paul,

    You used the phrase “John Birch crank”. The last word is superfluous. :)

    norcal (a6130b)

  125. @124/125. Suspect you’re at odds w/Joan– but then she has always played the role of a devilish sort. 😉 A little bad girl in your life is good for the soul, norcal. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  126. You nailed it, DCSCA. I don’t have anything against brunettes, but I’ve never understood all the hubbub over Joan Collins.

    norcal (a6130b)

  127. @129. I don’t have anything against brunettes, but I’ve never understood all the hubbub over Joan Collins.

    Hubbub?? Are you kidding?!?!? “Hubba-hubba, bub!” 😉

    Take a gander at these:

    https://comicbooksgalaxy.com/joan-collins-hot-pictures/

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  128. 116. t passed the Senate unanimously in May.

    Meanwhile

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/564386-white-house-blasts-chinas-dangerous-rejection-of-coronavirus-origins

    The White House on Thursday called China’s rejection of a second phase of the World Health Organization’s (WHO) investigation into the origins of the coronavirus “irresponsible” and “dangerous.”

    “We are deeply disappointed. Their position is irresponsible and frankly dangerous,” White House press secretary Jen Psaki told reporters when asked about Beijing’s rejection of the investigation, which would examine the possibility the virus emerged from a laboratory.

    “Alongside other member states around the world, we continue to call for China to provide the needed access to data and samples and this is critical so we can understand, to prevent the next pandemic. This is about saving lives in the future, and it’s not a time to be stonewalling,” she added.

    Psaki reiterated the Biden administration’s support for a second phase of the investigation that is “scientific, transparent, expert-led and free from interference.”

    Zeng Yixin, the vice minister of China’s National Health Commission, said at a press conference earlier Thursday that China would not participate in phase two of the investigation. Zeng said he was “rather taken aback” that the study would investigate further the possibility that the virus emerged from a lab in Wuhan.

    Biden is turning against China in spite of himself.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  129. Asked Thursday whether there would be consequences on China for its rejection of the independent study, Psaki declined to answer but said the U.S. approach to Beijing is coordinated with allies.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  130. Mr Murdock wrote:

    Texas has seen nearly 9,000 COVID-19 deaths since February. All but 43 were unvaccinated people.

    Of the 8,787 people who have died in Texas due to COVID-19 since early February, at least 43 were fully vaccinated, the Texas Department of State Health Services said.

    That means 99.5% of people who died due to COVID-19 in Texas from Feb. 8 to July 14 were unvaccinated, while 0.5% were the result of “breakthrough infections,” which DSHS defines as people who contracted the virus two weeks after being fully vaccinated.

    This is a pretty poor story. When the timeline used is “since early February,” the problem becomes that the vaccines were not available to people under 70 at that point.

    When months in which the vaccination rate was very low, due to short supply and the ‘tier’ restrictions, are included, it skews the results concerning the percentage of people who got sick or died.

    How about a more reasonable comparison:

    About one-fifth of the new COVID-19 cases in Lexington in July occurred in vaccinated people, according to new data from the Lexington-Fayette County Health Department.

    Those so-called “breakthrough” cases had accounted for less than 1 percent of Lexington’s reported infections until the last few weeks. In May, less than 10 percent of the month’s cases were breakthrough infections. In June, that number increased to almost 15 percent.

    This month, about 19.5 percent of all cases have been in people fully vaccinated against COVID-19, according to the health department.

    Note that it’s 19.5% in fully vaccinated people; there was no breakdown that included only partially vaccinated people.

    I’d guess that the number of ‘breakthrough’ cases is far higher. Why? If you are fully vaccinated, why get tested unless you are sick? Since the vaccines are supposed to make COVID cases milder if you do get infected, then there should be a smaller percentage of vaccinated vis a vis unvaccinated people being tested, and that would skew the percentages downward, perhaps significantly. (Kind of difficult to measure a negative, you know.)

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  131. And, of course, no fully vaccinated person would ever want to be tested, From CNBC:

    If a vaccinated person tests positive for Covid, through routine workplace testing, for example, “we don’t just let them go about their business and forget about the fact that they tested positive,” says Dr. Peter Katona, professor of medicine and public health at UCLA and chair of the Infection Control Working Group.

    “With the understanding that you’re less of a problem than an unvaccinated [person], it doesn’t mean you let up on your protocol,” he says.

    The most important thing to do after testing positive would be to isolate, meaning you stay away from people who are not sick, including others who are vaccinated, and monitor for Covid-related symptoms, Gonsenhauser says.

    “You are going to have to isolate just as though you were not vaccinated for 10 days from the first symptoms that you recognize or from the time of your test…keeping yourself from being around other people until that period is up,” Gonsenhauser says.

    You should avoid visiting any private or public areas or traveling during that 10-day period, according to the CDC.

    If you are fully vaccinated, getting tested if you are not sick can only mean a potential restriction in your life, so why get tested if you can avoid it?

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  132. I surrender, DCSCA. She’s beautiful.

    norcal (a6130b)

  133. Other Dana, 2,491 have died in TX from CV19 since May, and May is when most or all at-risk folks had the chance of getting a shot. Assuming all 43 vaccinated dead people also died from May forward, that’s still only 1.7% of the total, at most. The pattern is unmistakable.
    The Lexington example is about cases, not deaths, and it’s well established that vaccinated people who get infected have less severe symptoms and are less prone to die or fill hospital beds.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  134. #134 “[W]hy get tested if you can avoid it?”

    So you can learn whether you are infectious and can then avoid giving it to other people. (I have seen claims that the Delta variant causes you to shed more than a 1000 times as many virus particles as earlier variants, which would explain why it is so infectious.)

    (There are, of course, a few evil people who want to give their diseases to others.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  135. DCSCA @130,

    That phrase brings to mind some family lore. While on a family vacation to the South in 1978, we stopped at a water park to have some fun. My four-year-old brother approached a lady in the park (I think it was near the top of the water slide) and said, “Hubba hubba, ding ding. Baby, you got everything.”

    We still laugh about it.

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, my brother grew up to be a rather wild boy. He did NOT serve a Mormon mission like his brother. :)

    norcal (a6130b)

  136. Except that one is a simple choice, involving no bother at all other that getting their head out of their ass, and the other involve significant changes in living and may not really be possible for some.

    BTW, obesity and addiction often have little “personal choice” involved. Genetics and psychiatry play a bigger role. But since you’ve not experienced either of these, you have only your assumptions to work with.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:13 pm

    Not shoving fast food down your gullet and eating a salad instead is pretty much the definition of a personal choice.

    Not getting a shot is a “bad medical decision” much the same as “running with scissors” is.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:15 pm

    Ask the military members who took the anthrax vaccine about that one.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  137. Betty Crocker must be the reincarnation of Marie Antoinette. You know … cake?

    nk (1d9030)

  138. @140 Ha! Yes. She made sure the job was complete.

    norcal (a6130b)

  139. Ask the military members who took the anthrax vaccine about that one.

    Yes, can we please do that. Fine, I feel just fine. Didn’t get anthrax even though exposed, supposedly, and was vaccinated for Covid as early as possible, didn’t get that either.

    So overall, I feel pretty freakin’ good about it. And you, who neither served, nor are willing to disclose your vaccination status, only that you are doofus, are feeling…stoopid? Misunderstandinged?

    Learn about a thing before you begin to leverage it for some third purpose. You’re wrong on point, wrong on second order effects, and wrong in comparison of either to Covid.

    Wrong, like a clearly wrong person who is wrong quite often…being wrongerer, longerer.

    Wait, I hear the whine pre-time, nuh-uh. and I pre-answer uh-huh.

    Effing Richard Cranium.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  140. 140.Betty Crocker must be the reincarnation of Marie Antoinette. You know … cake?

    A common error amongst mere ‘peasants’ … 😉

    “Let them eat cake” is the traditional translation of the French phrase “Qu’ils mangent de la brioche”, said to have been spoken in the 17th or 18th century by “a great princess” upon being told that the peasants had no bread. The French phrase mentions brioche, a bread enriched with butter and eggs, considered a luxury food. [not “cake” as we know it]. The quotation is taken to reflect either the princess’s frivolous disregard for the starving peasants or her poor understanding of their plight. While the phrase is commonly attributed to Marie Antoinette, she did not originate it and she probably never said it. -source, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake

    OTOH, ‘let them eat my family’s frozen Salisbury steak in gravy with peas, mashed potatoes and apple cobbler … it’s yummy,‘ almost certainly has been uttered by Tucka.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  141. “Ask the military members who took the anthrax vaccine about that one.”

    When I joined the Air Force, in basic training they hit you with a half dozen shots, in the same arm, with a jet injector. It was painful but I’ve never caught any of the diseases I was immunized against.

    Davethulhu (aa6793)

  142. Bill Would Strip Social Media of Protections for Health Misinformation

    WASHINGTON—Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D., Minn.) introduced a bill Thursday that would strip online platforms such as Facebook Inc. and Twitter Inc. of their liability protections if their technologies spread misinformation related to public-health emergencies, such as the Covid-19 pandemic.

    The bill, which Ms. Klobuchar previously telegraphed was in the works, would create an exception to the law known as Section 230, which shields internet platforms from lawsuits for content generated by their users and other third parties.

    As I’ve said before, censorship by proxy. They could not pass a law that criminalized such speech, so they pass a law making private companies liable if they fail to censor.

    If this works, I have a few more things I’d add to the list.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  143. I’m pretty sure that if such a law passed, our host would ban ALL discussion of health topics. Assuming he still allowed comments.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  144. Mr M wrote:

    I’m pretty sure that if such a law passed, our host would ban ALL discussion of health topics. Assuming he still allowed comments.

    The left might like that. How many readers would our caretaker from Compton have were he to end the comments section? And who could afford to allow comments without the liability protections, because it only takes a second for someone to post something that might be actionable, and another second for someone to document it with a link and screen capture.

    End comments, and you cripple private publication of speech, which is very much what the children and grandchildren of the Berkeley Free Speech Movement seem to want.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  145. Mr thulhu wrote:

    When I joined the Air Force, in basic training they hit you with a half dozen shots, in the same arm, with a jet injector. It was painful but I’ve never caught any of the diseases I was immunized against.

    But you did volunteer for that, didn’t you?

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  146. Mr Miller wrote:

    #134 “[W]hy get tested if you can avoid it?”

    So you can learn whether you are infectious and can then avoid giving it to other people. (I have seen claims that the Delta variant causes you to shed more than a 1000 times as many virus particles as earlier variants, which would explain why it is so infectious.)

    Using that logic, you must wear a double-mask all day long, every day, and stay ‘socially distant’ from everyone, because you can never know if you have picked up the virus since your last test. This would have to include in your own home, if you do not live alone, because you could infect your wife or children or Jeff Bezos when he delivers your groceries.

    I’d point out here that, since the vaccine is an intramuscular injection rather than a pill, the nurse who vaccinated you could not have maintained social distancing.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  147. Mr M wrote:

    Except that one is a simple choice, involving no bother at all other that getting their head out of their ass, and the other involve significant changes in living and may not really be possible for some.

    It’s one thing to snark that in the comments section of a blog, but I have noted that a whole lot of those trying to persuade the reticent to go ahead and get vaccinated have been telling the people they supposedly want to persuade that they are stupid. Not exactly a sales pitch of which Dale Carnegie would have approved.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  148. I agree, telling these morons that they’re cretins will make it harder to manipulate them into doing what everyone that isn’t busy eating urinal cakes has already done.

    If I thought anyone actually unvaccinated might read that I wouldn’t have said it.

    We need to test these fools with compassion and respect even if there’s nothing about this choice to justify it.

    I’ll say this though, everyone makes mistakes and think dunking on ppl who stop being conspiy theorists is an uncalled for mistake.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  149. If you believed they put a man on teh moon
    Meant to mislead, the lines they feed to this goon…

    https://spectator.org/cnn-town-hall-biden/

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  150. the nurse who vaccinated you could not have maintained social distancing.

    I’m pretty sure she’s aware of that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  151. Biden is horrible and clearly doing a poor job in many areas.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  152. s if their technologies spread misinformation related to public-health emergencies, such as the Covid-19 pandemic.

    What if their misinformation is coming from the Centers for DDisease Control?? What if they change their recommendation, but it is not updated on Facebook fast enough?

    Last night Dr, Fauci was intervuewed by Norah O’onnell on the CBS Evening News and conveyed what I feel is misinformation. He was asked if someone got the Johnson and Johnson vaccine should they now get the Pfizer pr Moderna – and if he would.

    He echoed the party line: No. (a little bit cautiously because he knew the answer might change to yes)

    Maybe you can find it here:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/video/072221-cbs-evening-news

    https://www.cbs.com/shows/cbs_evening_news

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  153. End comments, and you cripple private publication of speech

    Which is why such a law, with its “chilling effect” on certain points-of-view, would fare no better than the original CDA. If you cannot ban pr0n, you can’t ban this.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  154. Biden is horrible and clearly doing a poor job in many areas.

    To be fair, he’s just the front-man for the Party.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  155. Members of 1199SEIU United Healthcare Workers East gathered outside the hospital’s main campus on 168th Street and Fort Washington Avenue in Washington Heights for the “Trust Our Voices Rally.”

    “We believe that our members are best equipped to make the healthcare decisions that are right for their bodies and for their families,” 1199SEIU Communications Director Cara Noel said. “We have been promoting vaccination, but to make vaccination a condition of employement is absolutely wrong.”

    https://abc7ny.com/newyork-presbyterian-hospitals-vaccine-mandate-nyc-covid-update/10903483/

    Tucker and Fox News has corrupted the minds of SEIU leadership?!?! Oh no!!!!

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  156. Nice bad faith argument.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  157. Dear healthcare workers:

    You can all die for all we care — your choice — but you work with members of the public who are entrusted to your care, so it’s not just about you.

    As for your union, I wonder if they would change their position if they shared liability for any infection its protected members passed along. Because your local has just put its crank in the gears.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  158. The EEOC has stated that requiring vaccinations as a condition of employment is perfectly legal, so long as those who have a relevant medical condition or sincerely-held religious objection are offered accommodations.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  159. The union includes members that are stupid. The union leadership is backing those members because it’s politically expedient for them. They make it clear they think everyone should get vaccinated which makes their stance here even more cowardly. They need to do better.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  160. If a union demands that its workers be allowed to work unvaccinated in hospitals, then one of them infects a cancer/AIDS/transplant patient, the hospital will get sued. And rightly so. How the union escapes that liability is beyond me.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  161. Union doesn’t have actual authority to make the decision. The hospital does. So the union is free to dishonestly advocate for both positions.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  162. The greatest trick the SEIU ever pulled was convincing some Americans that the union wasn’t among the money launderers the Democrat Party employs.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  163. Nice bad faith argument.

    Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 8:06 am

    ?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  164. Tourette’s

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  165. The union includes members that are stupid. The union leadership is backing those members because it’s politically expedient for them. They make it clear they think everyone should get vaccinated which makes their stance here even more cowardly. They need to do better.

    Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 8:23 am

    Maybe the headline of this article should be:

    Tucker Carlson, Stupid Union Members, and Union Leadership Are Almost Certainly Killing People

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  166. Dear healthcare workers:

    You can all die for all we care — your choice — but you work with members of the public who are entrusted to your care, so it’s not just about you.

    Nobody seemed this hostile when unvaccinated healthcare workers diligently cared for the covid stricken pre-vaccine. There must be some peer reviewed double-blind study that details how those workers were in the wrong back when everyone placed them on a pedestal.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  167. I’d point out here that, since the vaccine is an intramuscular injection rather than a pill, the nurse who vaccinated you could not have maintained social distancing.

    The nurse that vaccinated me was wrapped up in a disposable suit, double-gloved, face mask, face shield, head covering, etc. And this was outside a hospital setting.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  168. Remember… as Abraham Lincoln said, “80% of what you find on the internet is fake.”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  169. @168, that seems in line with the information

    Time123 (4258aa)

  170. The nurse that vaccinated me was wrapped up in a disposable suit, double-gloved, face mask, face shield, head covering, etc.

    That is one smart nurse!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  171. If a union demands that its workers be allowed to work unvaccinated in hospitals, then one of them infects a cancer/AIDS/transplant patient,

    Yeah… about that:

    SAN ANTONIO – Forty-two people are now in isolation after testing positive for COVID-19 at a San Antonio assisted living facility, a management company for the facility confirms.
    The positive cases were reported among 31 residents and 11 staff members last week at Heartis San Antonio Assisted Living and Memory Care on the far North Side.
    All 31 residents are fully vaccinated; four staff members are fully vaccinated, three have their first doses and four have not been vaccinated, officials said.

    https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2021/07/23/42-people-quarantined-amid-covid-19-outbreak-at-san-antonio-assisted-living-facility-officials-confirm/

    Without more information I can only tell you my opinion. My opinion is that the only way that many vaccinated people, in a hospital like settling, can contract Covid is if some of the vaccinated are contributing to the spread, just like the Texas/DC Dem debacle. I could be wrong so I will wait for the full report.

    If I am correct then I believe that an overconfident vaccinated health care worker, who spreads covid to a cancer/AIDS/transplant patient will probably get the hospital sued as well. These patients need certain protocols followed and they need to follow certain protocols themselves.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  172. 168, that seems in line with the information

    Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:12 am

    Since my previous post blaming Tucker and Fox was disingenuous and my current one is in line, where do you suppose SEIU is getting the misinformation?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  173. Based on the article the union wants everyone vaccinated but is backing their members who don’t want to get vaccinated. Nothing in the article told me anything about the members motivation.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  174. I asked for your supposition and that provided a roadblock. I should have asked for your assumption.

    Where do you assume SEIU is getting the misinformation?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  175. 🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9BSLm53Qnc

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  176. Mr M wrote:

    End comments, and you cripple private publication of speech

    Which is why such a law, with its “chilling effect” on certain points-of-view, would fare no better than the original CDA. If you cannot ban pr0n, you can’t ban this.

    But that’s just it: such a law would be different. It would be the repeal of Section 230, a law which protects our gracious host from being liable for libel — I do so love alliteration! — if someone else posted a libelous comment in the comments section.

    Even if such a repeal was repealed, how many private sites would have been crippled?

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  177. . If someone had strangled baby Trump in his crib, there likely would not have been an insurrection at the Capitol in 2020, because whoever ran against Biden would not have refused to concede or stuck with a Giant Lie about voter fraud.

    Whoever ran against Hillary Clinton in 2016, assuming that everything else had stayed the same. Most likely.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  178. 171. Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:10 am

    … as Abraham Lincoln said, “80% of what you find on the internet is fake.”

    How many years will it be, or maybe how late amd where somebody would need to be born, for someone to find that quotation plausible?

    Even now, it should be about 5%, because 5% or more of people polled will agree to anything.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  179. Union doesn’t have actual authority to make the decision. The hospital does. So the union is free to dishonestly advocate for both positions.

    The union can make demands and coerce the hospital to meet them. Besides, juries don’t always respect bright lines.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  180. Even now, it should be about 5%, because 5% or more of people polled will agree to anything.

    10% cannot name the President of the United States.

    30% think it’s Trump.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  181. I assume the members are motivated by the same thing the rest of the public is.
    Stupidity and conspiracy theories. I further assume that the union members have a diverse political outlook. Other union members I’ve worked with did. But that was manufacturing not healthcare.

    I assume the union leadership is motivated by political considerations within the union.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  182. … as Abraham Lincoln said, “80% of what you find on the internet is fake.”

    A true quote:

    “90% of everything is crap.”

    (Sturgeon’s Law)

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  183. When I joined the Air Force, in basic training they hit you with a half dozen shots, in the same arm, with a jet injector. It was painful but I’ve never caught any of the diseases I was immunized against.

    OTOH, your routine inoculations weren’t quickly ‘cooked up’ on a Mess Hall stove the month before, were they.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  184. I assume the union leadership is motivated by political considerations within the union.

    Such as?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  185. They have members who are dumb and don’t want to get vaccinated. The union leadership needs to back them against the hospital or in the next election those members will find someone else to vote for. Not saying this is a huge issue within the union. But right or wrong members want the union to be on their side.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  186. Is this actually not clear or are you attempting some sort of Socratic approach?

    Time123 (4258aa)

  187. I believe that you are avoiding being specific about the “political considerations.” And by specific I am curious about whether the pressure is from the left wing or the right wing of SEIU. Do you believe that it is the right wing members that SEIU is catering to?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  188. Within the Unions I’ve worked with the politics is all very local. Culture war stuff and national politics aren’t what I’ve seen as big drivers. So I don’t think the union leaders are acting based on National politics. I think it’s about not pissing off members and creating hard feelings that their political rivals in the union can capitalize on.

    Hopefully that’s more clear. If not, ask away. I don’t mind answering good faith questions.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  189. 1199SEIU today represents 400,000 registered nurses, techs, aides and other healthcare workers in hospitals, nursing homes, homecare programs, clinics and pharmacies throughout New York State, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Florida, Maryland and Washington, D.C.

    More recently, Patrick Gaspard, a former executive vice president for politics and legislation at the union, was the political director for Barack Obama’s presidential campaign.[3] Gaspard was appointed White House Political Director during Obama’s first term in office.[4] In addition to collective bargaining for its 400,000 members along the East Coast, 1199 utilizes its substantial budget to lobby and make political endorsements across party lines.[citation needed]

    Milly Silva, current executive vice president of 1199SEIU, was the Democratic candidate for lieutenant governor of New Jersey in the 2013 election.

    In the winter and spring of 2016, 1199SEIU’s president George Gresham was appointed chair of the Mario Cuomo Campaign for Economic Justice, which was the leading force behind the successful passage of the $15 minimum wage in New York State.[5]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1199SEIU_United_Healthcare_Workers_East

    I agree that it isn’t a national influence. The local influence if heavily Democrats and the leadership is heavily Democrats. Are you contending that this union is held hostage by non Democrat forces? Or do the Democrats have an incredible problem with vaccine misinformation that has nothing to do with Tucker and Fox?

    BuDuh (829305)

  190. What I see is a union standing up for their members when some of those members want something stupid.
    That’s about it.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  191. What I see is someone not wanting to admit that this is a liberal problem.

    BuDuh (829305)

  192. It would not surprise me if they were doing this on behalf of a very small percentage or number of members.

    I once saw a Local go to war for something that mattered for 1 person. But it was clearly a union/management fight so dispite the details the union leadership was all in. “I fight for you” is a very common campaign message in union elections. But my background is manufacturing not healthcare so it might be different.

    Regardless, this is cowardly and harmful to the public and the union leaders should be ashamed.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  193. So many other excuses to be found…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  194. Buduh, with the union? Totally could be. Lots of stupidity and conspiracy theories on the left.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  195. Buduh, I’d argue that because a healthcare union likely has credibility with the public on healthcare matters what the union is doing here is especially damaging in a way that say; fighting to get a drunk their job back.

    Union leaders need to tell their members to stop eating urinal cakes.

    Time123 (4258aa)

  196. https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/17584/peter-daszak-coronavirus

    Early in the pandemic, Daszak was behind the creation of an open letter, signed by several scientists, which squarely rejected the suggestion that a lab accident at the WIV may have released the virus into the city of Wuhan. Daszak did not disclose his conflict of interest when signing the letter, which would receive significant coverage in news reports purporting to debunk the lab leak theory.

    The good news from all this is that Daszak finally recused himself from a COVID-19 commission that was established by the medical journal The Lancet after his conflicts of interest with the WIV came to light. The bad news is that up until then, Daszak had been functioning as an apologist for the Beijing regime, parroting its nonsense that the SARS-CoV-2 originated somewhere else and somehow made its way to China. “There was a virus from Thailand close to the SARS-CoV-2, and also Japan and Cambodia. EcoHealth Alliance is already starting our work in tracing their origins,” he claimed to China’s state-run media earlier this year.

    By Peter Schweizer, who wrote a number of anti-Clinton corruption books.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)


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