How To Reach The Vaccine Skeptics
[guest post by Dana]
CDC Director Wallensky set off a storm of anger when when was discussing Covid-19 and said:
This is becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated
A few details:
The U.S. is now averaging about 26,000 new cases per day — up 70% from the previous week, Walensky said. Hospitalizations are up 36%, and deaths are up 26%, to an average of 211 per day.
Roughly 66% of eligible Americans have gotten at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine, and about 57% are fully vaccinated.
That is enough vaccinations to avoid another wave as bad as the worst of the pandemic, when the U.S. was averaging more than 3,000 deaths per day. But it is still low enough that another wave of illness death, largely confined to the unvaccinated, is still very much a possibility.
Over 97% of the people currently hospitalized for severe COVID-19 infections were unvaccinated, according to the CDC.
Further, vaccinations have slowed down considerably just as the rate of Delta variant infections has increased, and that’s a problem:
But with the highly transmissible Delta variant now circulating — mostly among the unvaccinated — the United States is seeing spikes in infections that have turned into increases in hospitalizations in some communities…
Vaccines are absolutely helping blunt the impact of these outbreaks — both the size and the toll in sickness and death. But vaccine uptake isn’t to the point yet where it can preclude increases in hospitalizations and deaths.
Put another way, without vaccines, the outbreaks in Nevada, Missouri, Arkansas, and elsewhere with low immunization rates would be worse, and other states would be more vulnerable to similar spikes.
“This is a new phase of the pandemic,” Jay Butler, the deputy director for infectious diseases at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention…“We’re seeing positive effects of the vaccination problem, but at the same time … it ain’t over ’til it’s over. We’re continuing to see transmission occurring, and we have a significant portion of the population that is unimmunized.”
One question to consider is, what is the most effective way to persuade vaccine-skeptic Americans to take the vaccine in light of the dramatic slowdown of vaccinations and the increase of the Delta variant. Michael B. Dougherty at NRO offers his thoughts:
Proponents of the vaccine are unwilling or unable to understand the thinking of vaccine skeptics — or even admit that skeptics may be thinking at all. Their attempts to answer skepticism or understand it end up poisoned by condescension, and end up reinforcing it.
Now first, it’s important for streets to run both ways, so I’ll offer that proponents have trouble doing this because many of the most prominent anti-vaxxers do indulge in conspiratorial thinking. Some of it is politically motivated; people may remember that while Trump was president, prominent Democrats expressed their fears about the corruption of the research process based on nothing more than their intuition.
Many people who have taken the vaccine have done so without the slightest sign of serious side effects and strongly associate doing it with the abatement of their fear and the justified relaxation of strictures on their life. They associate lack of vaccine take-up with the possibility of more restrictions. For vaccine proponents, it feels like lowering themselves to answer people they believe to be less intelligent. They will also likely have experience of running into people who use any and every argument against vaccination — whether or not the arguments cohere or are contradictory. So the idea of doing more intellectual work to answer people you think are morons, or are arguing in bad faith, is simply beyond them.
I don’t know about the writer’s personal experience in dealing with people who are against vaccine skeptical and how he feels about them, but I am one of those people who took the vaccine, didn’t experience any serious side effects, and still don’t look at people who won’t take the vaccine as “morons”. Reckless, yes. Frustrating, yes. Potentially putting others at risk, yes. Prolonging the pandemic, yes! But I can still hold a conversation with them, be polite, and kind while still remain ever-hopeful they will change their minds.
Anyway, here is the nub of his opinion on how the vaccinated need to adjust their approach to the unvaccinated if they have any hope of persuasion:
Getting skeptics on board will require abandoning efforts that seem like open manipulation in defiance of the evidence. It will also mean leveling with people. An ad might acknowledge that indeed there aren’t long-term studies and cannot be any when we are responding to a sudden pandemic, but it could offer medical reasoning to trust that long-term health complications due to these vaccines are unlikely, given how few short-term complications there have been. A public-health campaign would give context to the information about vaccine reactions reported on the government’s own websites — such as the VAERs system — and explain how the government assesses them. In the absence of this, skeptics will take the word of whoever is willing to give this information context.
The American people are unruly and in a sour mood about their authority figures. The 40 percent of people who reported their initial hesitance have barely budged so far — despite millions wasted on public education and ham-fisted attempts to prevent them from sharing their concerns and fears. If vaccine advocates really do want vaccination uptake to increase more than they want to feel superior, they have to change course.
The thing is, we can speak from personal experience: I have a number of family members who have opted not to be vaccinated. Several are nature-types and have concerns about the long-term effects of the vaccine, while a few others who are young fall into the group that isn’t all that concerned about getting Covid-19 because they believe youth and good health are on their side. And then a few, who live in very isolated regions, fall into the group that views government with a healthy dose of skepticism in general: Why should we trust a vaccine that’s been so fast-tracked to Americans? None of them, thankfully believe in the chip-under-the-skin nonsense or any of the other bizarre and completely nutso conspiracy theories surrounding the vaccine. However, when talking to them and trying to persuade them to see the wisdom in getting a vaccination, I have not held them in contempt nor felt superior to them. It seems an overstatement but perhaps Dougherty knows this firsthand or from the Twitters. I have been exasperated by the more “colorful” moments in our discussions where they bring up an absurd scenario and use an out-of-normal range possibility as a norm when it clearly isn’t. Anyway, my point is: it’s quite possible to work to persuade people with logic and science to get the vaccine and without viewing them as freaks or terrible people when they choose not to. But in my personal experience, it doesn’t matter how you approach these resisters – they are adults who have already settled on a point of view, and they seem determined to stick to their guns no matter what anyone says. Or maybe it’s because I am the one trying to persuade them… I used to think that surely if one of them got Covid-19, it would change the other family members’ minds. One of them got Covid-19, and none of them changed their minds about the vaccine. Does that mean that I should give up trying to persuade them though? No, I don’t think so. Because once in a while, I’m sure someone, somewhere has changed the mind of a loved one or a neighbor or a co-worker. And that makes every effort, even if it requires shaping the message in a particular way for a particular listener, worth it. Moreover, if that responder needs reassurances that I am not judging them or don’t think they are a moron then I’m willing to do that too, while still remaining honest about the issue. It certainly can’t hurt, and it might possibly result in something positive – like someone opting to be vaccinated.
[Caveat: I believe anti-vaxxers are the exceptions. I think that individuals who shun vaccines altogether are true believers, and no one is going to change their minds. If they can’t be persuaded to protect their own children with basic childhood vaccinations then there is almost zero hope that the Covid-19 vaccine will make a difference. ]
PS I have well-educated neighbors who have listened to all of the experts, read untold numbers of reports about the vaccine, etc., and yet because their hairdresser has shunned the vaccine and filled their minds with nonsense, they have opted to listen to *her* rather than those who know what they’re talking about. There’s no accounting for people and their behavior.
–Dana
Sorry this is slopped together, I am seriously on a tight schedule…
Dana (fd537d) — 7/20/2021 @ 12:46 pmThey ‘vaccine skeptics’ have a lot of really good points. I mean, how do you know Urinal Cakes aren’t really good for you to eat?
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 12:52 pmThe anti-vaxxers of my acquaintance are particularly sensitive to the idea that unvaccinated people might be the ones spreading the virus and latch upon any media mention of a sick, but vaccinated, person. They say that people who have been vaccinated are careless and spreading the disease unwittingly. I have my own ideas about who is unwitting.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 12:52 pmBTW, in my county in New Mexico 78% (18+) have received on shot and 70% have had both. Over a third of teenagers have completed the series. FWIW, 45% of Sandoval County voters went for Trump.
New Mexico data shows no rise in positive tests or hospitalizations.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 12:58 pmThe most important thing is not to heap scorn on the
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 1:02 pmpants shittingnly stupidvaccine skeptics. Just because they passionately believe in numerous things that are completely unhinged from reality doesn’t mean we can’t change their minds if we’re nice enough. Just look at how well all the detailed investigations into various allegations of election fraud have helped improve their confidence in the election. If all of that just lead to more uncertainty and doubts I’d probably have to write them off as unreadable.Shoot, got one caught in moderation
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 1:09 pmThe vaccine was not really fast-tracked, at least not in approval.
The vaccine WAS fast-tracked in development because of the new technical methods now available. In the past, a virus had to be isolated, its various mutations understood, and only then could a vaccine be developed — usually including some portion of the virus as its base.
Including a viral component in a vaccine makes it very necessary to test it thoroughly just for causing the infection itself. Most of the Covid vaccines have no viral component, just a protein marker found int he virus. This simplifies testing somewhat.
So, quick development (“dialed in by computer” someone said) plus a less fraught testing regime
allowed a vaccine that had been tested in thousands of people to be produced in about 9 months.
The FDA is cautious even still, so they mark this as needing more testing, even though many of the avenues for problems that older vaccines had (e.g. rare allergies to biological material used in production) are no longer present.
Is there some risk? Yes. The long-term effects of the mRNA method is unclear. But the short-term effects (e.g. death) of the virus are concrete.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 1:10 pmI find the best argument I have regarding risks is to talk about three people I know who got this thing: two dead, one who will now spend the rest of her life in a nursing home.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 1:13 pmMaybe someone should start a counter-meme. Such as: Did you know that Trump made sure the _____ vaccine was good, and its the one he got. The Biden people don’t want you to get that one, so insist on it. And you better get it soon before they get their chips in that one, too.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 1:15 pmHow To Reach The Vaccine Skeptics
Too late; damage done. Fauci’s credibility is toast.
Next month– he’ll will warn us of the mysterious Omicron Factor.
Lots of Greek letters left for him to use.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/20/2021 @ 1:17 pmToo late; damage done. Fauci’s credibility is toast.
I haven’t cared much what Dr Fauci has said since he lied to me about masks. hHis is an interesting turn on the appeal to authority falacy; the fraudulent appeal to bogus authority to undermine an argument
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 1:20 pmIf I was a 20 something year old, I’d probably pass on this particular vaccination.
steveg (ebe7c1) — 7/20/2021 @ 1:27 pmI have always had a strong immune system and would rather gain immunity the natural way. Covid isn’t Polio, Smallpox, Hepatitis. For healthy 20 somethings its a moderate cold at worst.
Nah. Based on Trump’s proven history of corrupting the decisionmaking process of the bureaucracy.
MBD is overrated. Always has been. IMO.
Be kind to people you are trying to convince is good advice and it may — may — work on some people in real life, who trust you.
Trying to convince people of these things online is a fool’s errand. And his column reminds me of his past efforts to try to convince us all that these poor Trump voters were just misunderstood. Apparently if the couple in the “fuck your feelings” T-shirt does not get vaccinated, it’s the fault of people like me who are derisive online to the idea that the vaccines have microchips.
Nope, MBD. Not taking blame. It’s primarily their own fault, and secondarily the fault of people spreading misinformation. People being mean to them online is about 121st in order of importance. It’s not worth talking about, like most of the drivel he writes.
Patterico (e349ce) — 7/20/2021 @ 1:38 pmTyphoid mary thought she had a right to infect others. If the anti-vaxxers won’t get vaccinated put them in prison or re-education camps.
asset (cabbcc) — 7/20/2021 @ 1:39 pmit’s not like we haven’t seen this movie before
a year ago it was masks and social distancing
we solved that by enforcing lockdowns and peer pressure
then we gave waivers to the right kinds of protesters and suddenly nobody took the condescension seriously anymore
we’re on pace to let in two million migrants in from countries with vaccination rates of 16% or lower, and the administration pretends to care as they ship them around the country to locations unknown, mostly red states who get blamed for vaccination rates a shade below 70%
i got vaccinated as soon as i was eligible but i don’t blame anyone who thinks we’re chumps
we are chumps
JF (e1156d) — 7/20/2021 @ 1:49 pmAxios-Ipsos poll: Convincing the unvaccinated
……..
30% of U.S. adults in our national survey said they haven’t yet gotten the COVID-19 vaccine — half of them a hard no, saying they’re “not at all likely” to take it. We asked the unvaccinated about how likely they’d be to take it in a number of scenarios:
The best prospect was a scenario in which they could get the vaccine at their regular doctor’s office. But even then, 55% said they’d remain not at all likely and only 7% said they’d be “very likely” to do it. That leaves a combined 35% who are either somewhat likely or not very likely but haven’t ruled it out.
The Biden administration’s Olivia Rodrigo (who?) play won’t reach a lot of the holdouts, according to these results: 70% said the endorsement of a celebrity or public figure they like is “not at all likely” to get them to take a shot, and just 4% said they’d be “very likely” to do it. But another combined 24% could be somewhat in play.
What if your boss gave you paid time off to get the shot? 63% said they’d still be not at all likely to do it, while 5% said they’d be very likely. Another 30% combined are potentially but not eagerly gettable.
Similar majorities said they’d be unmoved by community volunteers coming to the door to discuss the vaccine, the option to get a shot at work or a mobile clinic, or being lobbied by friends or family members.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/20/2021 @ 2:07 pm……..
Poll details.
Typhoid Mary didn’t believe she had typhoid and felt that even if she did, she was being unfairly singled out. Of all the asymptomatic carriers of typhoid, she was the only one in the US to be quarantined, so maybe she had a point.
steveg (ebe7c1) — 7/20/2021 @ 2:14 pmShe wasn’t put into prison, but she was quarantined on an island against her will for 20 years of her life. We can’t even get the violent mentally ill off the streets, but we are going to incarcerate vaccine agnostics? OK. CA DA’s are dropping enhancements for killers, but are going to go all in for throwing the book at vaccine agnostics
@17-
…..(Typhoid Mary) wasn’t put into prison, but she was quarantined on an island against her will for 20 years of her life. We can’t even get the violent mentally ill off the streets, but we are going to incarcerate vaccine agnostics? OK. CA DA’s are dropping enhancements for killers, but are going to go all in for throwing the book at vaccine agnostics
Who is being prosecuted/threatened with incarceration for being a vaccine agnostic?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/20/2021 @ 2:17 pmWas responding to asset in #14
steveg (ebe7c1) — 7/20/2021 @ 2:29 pmMBD has a point. Telling them you think they’re a bunch of failures who’d rather spread a plague then admit their political opponents might be right about something isn’t going to change minds. Neither is math they likely won’t understand.
These idiots didn’t make up their mind after taking classes in biology and statistics. They made up their mind because they felt mistreated and taken advantage of. They felt as if people like them were condescended to and treated like a bunch of chumps.
So it’s not “I won’t take the vaccine because of well understood and reasonable concerns.”
It’s “I won’t take the vaccine because doing so says that people I think look down on me were right. It says I’m willing to be picked on and pushed around and I just don’t think the risk is big enough to admit that.”
Persuading these tender snowflakes depends on finding sources they feel respect them and those sources putting the action into a narrative that makes them feel powerful and respected.
Fox News could do it with a sustained effort. But as soon as they tried OAN/Nesmax would use it to portray them sellouts.
Trump could do it. But there’s no advantage in that for him so he won’t. Also, it would take sustained effort, and he’s not good at that.
Other then those 2 I don’t see much hope in getting these conspiracy theorist to admit to any reality that makes them feel the least bad about themselves.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 2:34 pm20-35% of prescriptions are never filled. Which is more or less in line with the vaccine agnostic crowd numbers
According to the NY Times quoting the Annals of Internal Medicine:
“The numbers are staggering. “Studies have consistently shown that 20 percent to 30 percent of medication prescriptions are never filled, and that approximately 50 percent of medications for chronic disease are not taken as prescribed,” according to a review in Annals of Internal Medicine. People who do take prescription medications — whether it’s for a simple infection or a life-threatening condition — typically take only about half the prescribed doses.
This lack of adherence, the Annals authors wrote, is estimated to cause approximately 125,000 deaths and at least 10 percent of hospitalizations, and to cost the American health care system between $100 billion and $289 billion a year.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/well/the-cost-of-not-taking-your-medicine.html
steveg (ebe7c1) — 7/20/2021 @ 2:39 pmDon’t agree 100% with what the CDC or other authorities are putting out. But that’s not enough.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/20/2021 @ 2:41 pm#19 steveg
Was responding to asset in #14
That is a bit extreme.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/20/2021 @ 2:48 pmit was hard enough convincing these idiots the virus naturally came about
JF (e1156d) — 7/20/2021 @ 2:59 pmI kind of feel bad for the people on ‘the team’ when the team get’s behind something embarrassingly stupid.
On the one hand they recognize that eating urinal cakes to keep away ghosts (or whatever) is dumb.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:01 pmOn the other hand they don’t want to disrespect their team and they get why their teammates are doing the dumb thing.
When it comes to children under 12 – and maybe 15 – they don’t need the vaccine – and even if they do they probably don’t need two shots (because their immune system reacts strongly to novel antigens – that’s why measles or chicken pox is usually amild disease with children in grade school.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cdc-covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-side-effects-hospitalization-kids-11626706868
There seems to be adoubele standard about dangers.
When it comes to deaths from the disease, they don’t look closely at individual cases, to see if it was really caused by Covid. They are counting anyone with a Covid diagnosis, even if they came into the hospital because iof a bicycle accident or had leukemia (of course what this article doesn”t say, Covid makes things worse)
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:08 pmSo when it comes to dying with Covid, every death is counted.
But when it comes to examining whether being vaccinated led to complications or even death, they look hard at the data/
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:14 pmWSJ editorial says Covid will always be with us,
https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-delta-variant-market-dow-industrial-700-points-11626731103
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:16 pmIf I had a 12-17 year old, I might be vaccine hesitant, but not for the adult population.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:23 pmIf over 90% of the hospitalized and the dead are unvaccinated, that should be fact enough.
The objections I’ve heard are all based on misinformation/disinformation. I had one gal tell me she wouldn’t get a shot because she was worried about fertility. Another friend falsely cited the thousands of deaths from the vaccine. It goes on.
At this point, the adults who refuse vaccinations are responsible for their own bad decisions. Persuasion has already been tried.
the most famous and influential anti-vaxxer is that notorious super trumper rfk jr
JF (e1156d) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:24 pmI agree, Paul, they are responsible for their own bad decisions and what might befall them as a result. I tend to think persuasion on a personal level may garner a better result rather than online. People like Tucker Carlson or Laura Ingraham spend a lot of time hectoring and mocking the vaccine proponents, and as usual, they have a lot of people listening to them and following their lead.
Dana (fd537d) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:32 pmBiden-Harris were anti-vaxxers before the 2020 November election.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:32 pmSee how your neighbors are doing
steveg (ebe7c1) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:38 pmhttps://dig.abclocal.go.com/kabc/ca-vaccine-tracker/SoCal_vax_zip_map.html
Nah. Based on Trump’s proven history of corrupting the decisionmaking process of the bureaucracy.
Pish. The decision-making process of the thoroughly corrupt bureaucracy: where decisions historically benefit the bureaucracy. Pull the other one.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:41 pmThey weren’t.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:41 pmI think it’s pretty pointless to try to convince people to get the vaccine online. I think in-person (if you are someone they trust) is probably the way to go. Of course the individuals are responsible for their own decisions, but we also know that the spread of misinformation has really worked against vaccine efforts. However, Trump supporters in particular, were already primed to be angry and distrustful of anything that came out of The Swamp (well, except for Trump), and they already felt targeted and disenfranchised. So it’s unsurprising they would largely reject the vaccine and wrap it up into some conspiracy theory(ies).
Dana (fd537d) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:41 pmYes, they were.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:43 pmhttps://twitter.com/KyleMartinsen_/status/1416094954603044864?s=20
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:46 pmhttps://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1416775447887716353?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1416775447887716353%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ace.mu.nu%2F
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:48 pmThey weren’t. They were anti taking Trump at his word (especially in the context of Trump’s infomercials on HCQ), not anti-vax. Quote:
–Kamala Harris, 10/7/2020
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:51 pmYou’re going to have to provide documentation of this claim. I think you’re wrong, but I’ll wait.
Dana (fd537d) — 7/20/2021 @ 3:56 pmTime123,
At this point in time, I really don’t think Trump could influence the unvaccinated Trump supporters. They have known for five or six months that the Trumps were vaccinated at the beginning of the year and yet there wasn’t a big uptick in vaccines after that became public knowledge.
Dana (fd537d) — 7/20/2021 @ 4:02 pmThis bears repeating.
—Jake Tapper, last weekend.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/20/2021 @ 4:06 pmWe can’t say that for sure, of course, but we do know that during the 2020 campaign, top Democratic leaders, like presidential nominee Joe Biden and running mate Kamala Harris, laid the groundwork for vaccine skepticism. For example, during a CNN interview Sept. 5, with the vaccine still in development under Trump’s historic Operation Warp Speed, Harris was asked if she would get the vaccine when it was ready. It depends, Harris answered. “I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump,” she continued, “and it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he’s talking about. I will not take [Trump’s] word for it.”
In her Oct. 8 debate with Vice President Mike Pence, Harris was asked, “If the Trump administration approves a vaccine, before or after the election, should Americans take it and would you take it?” Harris answered that she would take it only if the nation’s top virologist, Dr. Anthony Fauci, recommended it. “But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it,” Harris said.
Later in the debate, Pence told Harris, “Your continuous undermining of confidence in a vaccine is just, it’s just unacceptable.” But Biden, the Democratic presidential nominee, was sending the same message. “I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don’t trust Donald Trump,” Biden said in September. “And at this moment the American people can’t, either.”
In October, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, at the time respected by Democrats despite his disastrous handling of the COVID pandemic in his state, was asked whether he had confidence in the government’s approval process for the vaccine. “I’m not that confident, but my opinion doesn’t matter,” Cuomo told ABC News. “I don’t believe the American people are that confident. I think it’s going to be a very skeptical American public about taking the vaccine, and they should be.”
During the transition, Cuomo suggested he would bar distribution of the vaccine in New York — an extraordinary step as the pandemic raged — as long as Trump remained president. Democratic voters got the message.
https://amp.lubbockonline.com/amp/7969961002
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 4:06 pmDana, will you accept short snippets taken out of context as documentation?
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 4:07 pmOn the open thread, I wrote how three universties near me reached vaccine skeptics. “Liberal” U. of Wisconsin and U. of Illinois, with spurveyed 96% expected vaccination rates for the Fall term, made vaccination optional. “Coservative” U. of Indiana made it mandatory. There’s a saying about mules and getting their attention.
nk (9651fb) — 7/20/2021 @ 4:07 pmIt’s just amazing how many of these anti-vax imbeciles took their lead from VP Harris. I had no idea she was a figure of such respect among the lunatic Right.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 4:11 pmNk, if you’re a place that typically require immunization this should be added to the list.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 4:12 pmByron York (quoted above in #43) is hardly a disinterested, apolitical writer.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/20/2021 @ 4:18 pmDon’t moronically pretend the current junta wasn’t playing up and spreading bullschiff.
Colonel Haiku (94c32c) — 7/20/2021 @ 4:20 pmI don’t think anyone expected a good faith or honest defense of the assertion.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 4:20 pmYou can choose to mischaracterize what they said and make excuses as is your habit.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 4:40 pm“Why do we think, God willing, when we get a vaccine — that is good, works — why do we think the public is gonna line up to be willing to take the injection?… We’ve lost so much confidence, the American people, in what’s said [by the Trump administration].”
—- Dementia Joe Biden
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 4:47 pmOnce again, it’s an example of anti taking Trump at face value, not anti-vax. The whole article in context is here.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/20/2021 @ 5:13 pmCH, why would anyone waste time taking what you say seriously? You post jokes and sarcastic comments and occasionally throw up something to try and get a reaction, but you’re smart enough to know that the “evidence” you present here is taken out of context and doesn’t actually support your assertions. If you act like a clown don’t be salty when you’re not taken seriously.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 5:26 pmOctober 7, 2020:
In debate, Kamala Harris says she won’t take a COVID vaccine just on Trump’s say-so
https://news.yahoo.com/kamala-harris-says-she-wont-take-covid-vaccine-just-on-trumps-sayso-020511962.html
September 29, 2020:
Biden does not trust Trump to deliver a safe vaccine
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/biden-does-not-trust-trump-to-deliver-a-safe-vaccine
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/20/2021 @ 5:31 pmLike you actually think the anti vax crowd today took their direction from Harris. 😂
Time123 (740b05) — 7/20/2021 @ 5:32 pm@32. Certainly wary of anything Trumped up.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/20/2021 @ 5:33 pm@58- Viewers were too busy trying to picture her in a dress. Naked, would put’em off their popcorn.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/20/2021 @ 5:35 pmYou can piss off.
It is worth saying clearly that the Democratic party, around the United States and for many years, does have a record of backing vaccines. The Republican record is more mixed, and Donald Trump himself has flirted with the anti-vax movement. But what worries some enthusiastic backers of vaccine science is that the Democrats risk undoing the work they have done in the past – and of damaging Americans’ already shaky trust in science and medicine.
The view that Donald Trump might be untrustworthy on medical matters is hardly controversial. It might make political sense for the Democrats to point this out so that the White House cannot make some baloney claim that a vaccine is ready and if you vote Trump you will get a jab in a few weeks time and your job back and everything will go back to normal. You can see why Joe Biden and his team might want to inoculate themselves against that.
But this is (relatively) subtle politics. What if most people just don’t concentrate that hard on the detail? The risk is that the message they get is less “Donald Trump is dodgy when he promises a vaccine” but more: “the vaccine is dodgy.”
It’s the dodginess, stupid.
One of Americas most prominent anti-vax campaigners isn’t complaining. For Robert F Kennedy, JFK’s nephew, the Democrats’ attitude has been helpful to his cause: “There is undeniably a lot more scepticism about vaccines,” Kennedy said. “It’s gone from maybe 5 to 10 percent to up to 50 percent range.”
He seems to have got that about right. In a national poll conducted for CNBC/Change Research at the end of last month [September 2020] only 42% said they would definitely or probably receive the inoculation when it first became available. That figure has fallen from 58% in July.
And who, politically, has had the biggest change of heart?
An extraordinary collapse in support from registered Democrats contributed to the overall change: only 30% said they would definitely get a vaccine, down from 57% in July [2020]
https://unherd.com/2020/10/how-anti-vax-are-the-democrats/
It’s a fine line between “Trump can’t be trusted” and “the vaccine is scary and can’t be trusted”.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 5:36 pmNext week, on Fauci Sci-Fi Theater:
‘The Theta Bacillus’
Check your local listings.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/20/2021 @ 5:40 pmThere is a solution for this problem of unvaccinated people, but it is too adult for most Americans, who want to have things both ways all the time. Allow the insurance companies to deny coverage for Covid treatment to the unvaccinated (unless there is a valid medical excuse for not being vaccinated, of course).
But then the hospital would just have to treat them for free, you say? This is where the adult part comes in. Change the law so that hospitals can refuse to admit these people unless they pay cash up front. This will get people’s attention real fast.
You may think it is cruel, and if you run on emotion I’m sure you will, but I say it’s a very sobering and rational way to deal with a serious and highly contagious disease. People need to own and feel the consequences of their decisions not to be vaccinated.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/20/2021 @ 5:47 pmVaccinations, like government, are not the opposite of freedom. They are a means toward achieving it
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/20/2021 @ 5:53 pmCH, your initial claim was
Which is a dumb assertion unsupported by the facts.
Your new claim is
That’s a plausible claim.
Thank you for walking it back to something at least somewhat based in facts.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:05 pm@63. Wait. For. The. Pill.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:05 pmNo, after Trump touted HCQ as a “game changer” and “tremendous breakthrough” despite no one on his task force agreeing with him (and then the FDA withdrew its recommendation because none of the clinical trials showed effectiveness), he well shot his credibility on touting Covid-related drugs, among other things.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:09 pmThere’s no “fine line” here. His word alone can’t be trusted, which is why Biden-Harris always deferred to Fauci and similar experts in his own administration (but not numchucks like Scott Atlas).
Paul, that’s all true. Only fools believe anything Trump says without independent confirmation. But a case can be made that. In attacking Trump for his dishonesty the Dem’s didn’t do enough to make it clear they still had faith in the overall process when it works as designed. Since anti-Vaxers a dim witted conspiracy theorists it doens’t take much.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:12 pmMy typing on this keyboard has taken my already poor writing to entirely new lows.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:12 pmFair enuf, T123.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:17 pmCut that guy off, bartender. End his teeth gnashing…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:17 pmThere’s the clown nose we’ve all come to know and love.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:23 pmThere’s no “fine line” here. His word alone can’t be trusted, which is why Biden-Harris always deferred to Fauci and similar experts in his own administration (but not numchucks like Scott Atlas).
At the same time, all the medical experts and vaccine developers were enthusiastically positive about the concerted, focused effort, sought to inspire confidence and mitigate doubts in the vaccines under development. They were doing the right thing.
If you are of the opinion that either Biden or Harris were doing the right thing or had the best interests of their fellow citizens at heart in this matter… well, to each his own.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:27 pmBe sure to hydrate…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:28 pmDana, thank you for your post. Sadly, you can see how things play out nowadays.
I’m glad you and your family are vaccinated. So are we.
I had hoped that this scare would teach us how to good to one another and find a way through messes like these—we were very lucky from about 1960 until now. My parents were as conservative and old fashioned as they come, but they were vaccine believers, having seen what happened in their absence.
Since I actually have training in virology, and have taken courses in epidemiology (as well as the history of pandemics), you can imagine my sadness.
But you know the old saying: never let a crisis go to waste…politically.
Simon Jester (a73139) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:29 pmPerhaps I missed it, but I haven’t seen anyone mention the anti-vax efforts of the Russians. (Here’s a brief article from March, if you want the basics.)
As I understand it, their web sites spread disinformation, which is then amplified by social media, and detached from its sources, so a vaccine skeptic in, for example, Tennessee, has no idea they are passing along something that originated in Moscow.
I don’t know whether knowing that would help change minds, but with some skeptics it might be worth a try.
(Many of you will remember that the ChiComs and the Soviets putout similar kinds of disinformation during the Cold War.)
Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:35 pmIs all you folks here sent from da gubmint to help us individuals who have rights?
mg (8cbc69) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:46 pmStay off my lawn.
Colonel,
anything that may possibly put the left in a bad light while putting Trump in a good light isn’t going to be looked upon fondly by most on here. They will parse every word to excuse bad behavior by the left if it might make Trump look okay by comparison. I commend you for continuing to give an honest effort.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:47 pmAnyone telling their children to get this vax is foolish. They aren’t at risk from the virus and the long term effects of the vax are unknown. For the elderly and those at risk, the vax is a no brainer. Nothing has changed.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:48 pmplenty of no braining here
mg (8cbc69) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:53 pm#79 NJRobb – And if those children pass on the disease to someone who is vulnerable?
And, just for the record, there is some risk to children.
(I haven’t seen a formal study, but it looks to me as if the diseases spread more rapidly in multi-generation households. For example, the Cape Verdeans in Rhode Island were apparently hit especially hard.)
Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:57 pmThanks, Rob. Back atcha.
Yep, the NeverTrumpinistas wanted Biden-Harris, and they got ‘em. And they will continue to get it good and hard and have a hand in the continuing debasement of America.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:58 pmIf the anti-vaxxers won’t get vaccinated put them in prison or re-education camps.
Yeah. That’s always a good way to combat paranoia — talk about tossing them in camps. It’s what Castro did with the HIV+ folks.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:01 pmWhen does sleepy joe put the serum to his millions of new wetbacks? Like its priority. lmao.
mg (8cbc69) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:04 pmthe most famous and influential anti-vaxxer is that notorious super trumper rfk jr
Uh, no. It’s Jenny McCarthy. RFK Jr is her disciple. The original claim behind all of this came from (former) Dr Andrew Wakefield, who published a completely bogus paper connecting autism to the MMR vaccine in the then-respected journal Lancet. The journal later had to retract and Dr Wakefield was struck off by the British medical establishment. But the MMR-autism thing has never died away, and has resulted in measles going from almost extinct to having yearly outbreaks.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:10 pmNah. Based on Trump’s proven history of corrupting the decisionmaking process of the bureaucracy.
The only corrupt thing was the bureaucracy intentionally withholding vaccine information until after the election. Your “I hate Trump” glasses infect your perception.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:13 pmIf Trump had won, #neverTrump would be anti-vaxx, for equally silly reasons. This isn’t the product of logic, but raw hate.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:15 pmLike you actually think the anti vax crowd today took their direction from Harris.
No, because all of a sudden it wasn’t “Trump’s vaccine.” Joe Biden made it all in his basement lab and nothing that Trump did had anything to do with it.
I really tire of all this pro-/anti-Trump filtering. It makes normally intelligent people look like cultists. On both sides.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:18 pmA good thread on vaccine hesitancy.
lurker (59504c) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:21 pmAllow the insurance companies to deny coverage for Covid treatment to the unvaccinated (unless there is a valid medical excuse for not being vaccinated, of course).
A bit harsh, but the government has no business FORCING insurance companies to waive co-pays and deductibles as they are now doing. Unlike obesity, or even smoking, there is no great difficulty in get a FREE flipping vaccine.
Not doing so is willful, unforced and reckless. With other things you can point to an addiction, to genetic dispositions, even to lifestyle hazards. But not here.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:24 pmKevin M. – One thing that puzzled me about that Wakefield paper: I could not find any reason for a journal as prominent as Lancet to publish it, when I read through it years ago. (To be fair, I am not a medical researcher but I could see, for example, how small the numbers were.)
(Alas, the blankety-blank moved to the US, and is still propagandizing here.)
Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:27 pmPrediction: Katalin Karikó and Drew Weissman will win this year’s Nobel for their mRNA discoveries.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:28 pmJim,
Yeah, one of the reasons I no long trust it. I assume it was some particularly lazy peer reviewers.
Note that Wakefield’s plan seems to have been to become an expert witness in a string of vaccine/autism lawsuits.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:30 pmJim Miller (edcec1) — 7/20/2021 @ 6:57 pm
Avoid kids if you’re worried. You could say the same about visiting someone from the Texas Democrat delegation except you’re more likely to catch it from them.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:31 pmRip at 64.
I won’t link it, but it’s new sheriff Bart taking himself hostage in Blazing Saddlles.
But there’s more to the story, I think. For the first time in their otherwise meaningless existence except as contributors to the mosquito reproductive process, other people are thinking of them. Trump who “needs their love may God speed their love to him”, and regular people who want the pandemic to end and the world to return to normal. Losers for whom being the fly in the ointment is a step up in evolution.
nk (9651fb) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:32 pmOT: Did anyone catch that Bezos’ rocket uses liquid hydrogen? A lot of bang for the buck and much greener than kerosene (not to mention Branson’s &%%$ing burning rubber). But touchy as all hell.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:33 pmBiden and Harris were running on the proposition that Trump was not a straight shooter….who was irresponsible with his language about the pandemic….and had blown his credibility. I think that is
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:34 pma fair read of their comments. I think voters could do with that what they wanted….and 75M still chose Trump. I’m still mystified over why the vaccination….developed by private companies with a strong incentive for it to work….has become a political matter. It should be principally a scientific question….what poses the greater risk…and leave the political hectoring out of it. Again, I would hate to be that person that unknowingly spread covid….because I chose to not really understand the science. Is this really about political points?
@ Kevin 78, That’s most likely true. I think that a lot of the left have faith in other leaders (e.g. fauci) and would be persuadable by them. But there would be a lot who weren’t.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:36 pmI won’t be surprised if the UK doesn’t mandate vaccine cards. They have a history of top-down rule when push comes to shove. That’s where all the guns went. Probably the EU as well.
We won’t, more’s the pity. People cry freedom! until they get sick, then they demand free medicine.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:37 pm*I WILL be surprised if the UK doesn’t mandate vaccine cards.
One too many negatives.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:39 pm@78, Once CH walked his initial claim back to something supported by facts it seems like the disagreement went away. not sure what your complaint is.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:46 pm#94 I haven’t been worried for myself since several weeks after my second shot of the Pfizer mRNA vaccine.
I am worried for others, especially poor, uneducated people living in multi-generational families, who are especially vulnerable to COVID. And for those who have been taken in by the anti-vax propaganda. I would like to think you that you don’t mean to imply that you don’t care about such people, and others.
Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/20/2021 @ 8:09 pm“Macron also announced that special COVID-19 passes will be required starting in early August to enter restaurants and shopping malls and to get on trains and planes.”
steveg (ebe7c1) — 7/20/2021 @ 8:11 pmThey can take care of themselves and don’t need your pity. That says a lot about today’s society. Why do you think you think they aren’t capable of taking care of themselves so it’s the government’s responsibility to do it?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/20/2021 @ 8:19 pmMacron brings back lettres de cachet the day before July 14th
steveg (ebe7c1) — 7/20/2021 @ 8:19 pmMacron is a fascist. May he rot in hell.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/20/2021 @ 8:20 pmIn an odd twist, some of the people who wouldn’t trust Trump about the vaccine are completely trusting the pricing of Hunter Biden’s dabblings
steveg (ebe7c1) — 7/20/2021 @ 8:33 pmAllow the insurance companies to deny coverage for Covid treatment to the unvaccinated (unless there is a valid medical excuse for not being vaccinated, of course).
A bit harsh
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 7:24 pm
Yes, it’s harsh, but why should we shield these people from the consequences of their choices?
Right now they’re gambling with house money. I’ll bet the anti-vaxxers will change their tune if they have to start paying their own Covid-related medical bills. It’s easy to talk smack when someone else is underwriting their foolishness.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/20/2021 @ 9:00 pm“Why do you think you think they aren’t capable of taking care of themselves so it’s the government’s responsibility to do it?”
More than 4 million deaths world wide (probably many more) and more than 625,000 deaths here in the United States.
And I do not think that it is the government’s sole responsibility. I have tried to follow the rules to avoid getting infected — or infecting others — not because the government was forcing me to, but because it was best for me — and for others I came in contact with.
To me, all this is just another example of following the Golden Rule — which I happen to think is often a practical guide.
(I do favor holding individuals who recklessly spread the disease accountable in courts. For example, I think those who caught the disease from “Typhoid Rand”, or “Super Spreader Donnie”, should be able to sue them and collect damages.)
Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/20/2021 @ 9:04 pmOT: Biden shuts down Keystone-XL but signs off on Russian pipeline to Western Europe. And they said that Trump was Putin’s stooge.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 9:13 pm@110 Good one, Kevin
norcal (a6130b) — 7/20/2021 @ 9:25 pmDueling headlines:
WaPo: Growing number of Republican lawmakers urge vaccinations amid delta variant’s surge
NY Times: As Virus Resurges, G.O.P. Lawmakers Allow Vaccine Skepticism to Flourish
Meanwhile (widely reported):
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/20/2021 @ 9:38 pmAnti-vaxxers: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/20/2021 @ 9:40 pmOT: Biden shuts down Keystone-XL but signs off on Russian pipeline to Western Europe. And they said that Trump was Putin’s stooge.
Because it’s not up to the US to dictate to the Germans (or Europeans in general) how to obtain their energy supplies. They can weigh the risks on their own when dealing with the Russians (especially since we cannot offer them an immediate alternative). And Keystone had nothing to do with developing US energy production, its primary purpose was to export Canadian tar sands to the Gulf (as you surely know).
Rip Murdock (1c44e0) — 7/20/2021 @ 9:43 pmKentucky lawmaker under fire after comparing COVID-19 regulations to Jonestown cult leader
……..
Rep. Regina Huff, R-Williamsburg, tweeted photos of cult leader Jim Jones and top White House medical adviser Dr. Anthony Fauci Tuesday morning.
Jones’ photo includes a textbox saying, “I persuaded over 900 people to drink my Koolaid” — a reference to the hundreds of people in Jones’ cult who drank poisoned Kool-aid and died in a mass murder-suicide in 1978.
Next to it, Fauci’s image simply reads, “Amateur.”
“Some will cavil, they will not be able to help themselves,” Huff tweeted alongside the image.
Huff quickly deleted the post. ……
“I did indeed delete the tweet because of the vulgarity within the comments,” Huff said in a separate tweet that was also later deleted.
The original tweet was “representative of the efforts gearing up to mandating and controlling citizens,” she said.
Rip Murdock (1c44e0) — 7/20/2021 @ 9:56 pm……..
Huff said in a third tweet that her initial Jonestown tweet was “not a reference to vaccinations at all,” but about “mandates and efforts to control.”
……..
“It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt.”-Mark Twain
@115 Oh my. The sheer lack of self-awareness is astounding. If anybody could lead his followers to do insane things, it’s the leader of Cult 45.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/20/2021 @ 10:17 pmI clicked the link and it took me to the map which said it was by ZIP Code but didn’t have any ZIP Codes on it. No navigation. No way to actually see what your ZIP Code looks like unless you compare the map to a map where you know your ZIP Code. Totally useless. Do you have anything better?
Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:08 amSoon as I understand it you are saying when Biden and Harris said “I’m not taking it“ they were not being Covid anti-VAX, but were just questioning Trump.
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2021/07/17/im-not-taking-it-heres-a-must-see-compilation-of-joe-biden-and-kamala-harris-spreading-vaccine-skepticism/
Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:22 amWow! Some of the responses here are just as bad or worse than Twitter. You don’t need to call people names or put them down and make fun of them as if they were people who married their sisters or cousins to make an argument. Treating people who disagree with you as developmentally disabled is not right.
I want to be clear. I am not an anti-vaxer. My wife and I received the first shot of the Moderna vaccine in January and second in February. My 38-year-old stepson went on the Pfizer trial so that he would get the vaccine as quickly as possible. We are not anti-vaccine. It’s unfortunate that I’m part of a very small percentage of people who have been vaccinated who has had an adverse reaction to the vaccine. It would be nice if I could breathe better. I hope it’s not permanent. Even knowing that might happen I would still take the vaccine.
The CDC back in March 2020 and some study in February 2021 stated that 80% of those positive with Covid were asymptomatic. it is a small percentage of people who end up dying. Someone earlier talked about their experience with Covid and what happened to people they knew. I would like to say what happened to people I know. One person I know died. She is my son-in-law‘s mother and had serious comorbidities. Her husband got it and was sick for three days and has not had any lasting damage that he knows of. My son-in-law got it and my daughter got it and they both had it for three days, but it took another five days before my daughter regained her sense of smell. My ex-wife had it for three weeks and her husband for three days. An acquaintance from New York got it early on and went to the hospital. The hospital told him to go home and when he got worse to come back. It didn’t get worse but he still gets out of breath walking upstairs and has had lasting problems. I have eight friends/acquaintances who got it with mild to medium symptoms and took the Zelenko protocol and it was gone within 3 to 6 hours. This also happened to my ex-wife when she got tired of having it even with mild symptoms for three weeks. A CEO I’ve worked with of a company in Louisiana was told that he only had a few days left to live. He talked to a relative who suggested he take the Zelenko protocol which wasn’t known about by the political medical community and the immunologist approved it. He took it at 11 PM that night and woke up at 4:30 AM and noticed he was no longer struggling to breathe. Three days later they released him from the hospital. There’s even a peer reviewed study that says it works is taken early in the process. I don’t know why we haven’t put equal resources and looking for a treatment.
In Israel where they have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world with the new Delta variant they are saying that 40% of those new cases are with people who have been vaccinated and 1% have previously had Covid. They are also saying out of the very small percentage who end up in the hospital that 80% have been vaccinated. There was also a recent study by the Cleveland clinic are saying that if you had Covid you are just as immune if not better than if you had the vaccine. This is why I don’t understand why people are saying even if you’ve had Covid you should get the vaccine. That doesn’t make sense to me. Does that make me anti-vaccine if I believe people who’ve never had Covid should be vaccinated and people who have had Covid shouldn’t be vaccinated?
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762
Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:39 amI just reread the previous post and saw that there are errors. As some of you know I have Parkinson’s and can barely type. I use Siri dictation and then to the best of my ability make corrections. The previous post took me about an hour to complete. So there are errors though I think all of you have the ability to figure out what I was saying. I provided only one link to a few of my assertions. If you want more, please Google it yourself I am sure you are all capable of doing that. My apologies for the errors.
Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:57 amhttps://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2021/07/looking_for_a_word_for_mitt_romney.html
mg (8cbc69) — 7/21/2021 @ 2:53 amVoluntary vaccination is for a moral and religious people. It will not work with anybody else.
nk (9651fb) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:22 amTanny,
your post makes perfect sense. Thank you for it.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:43 amTammy, I haven’t read every comment but I was clearly one of the people insulting and belittling anti-vaxers. It was not my intent to imply they were developmentally disabled, associate them with the developmentally disabled, or heap scorn upon the developmentally disabled. I find conspiracy theories and the people who buy into them very annoying and my comments reflected that. All efforts at humor or hyperbole aside I think a large population of at risk people is a public and not a private health risk. It give the virus a population from which to mutate and grow when that’s entirely unnecessary. There are also a significant number of people who can’t/shouldn’t be vaccinated and leaving them at risk ‘because the vaccine has a microchip in it” also frustrates me.
The people pushing back against the vaccine are doing so for mostly dishonest reasons and with dishonest arguments. The vaccine isn’t perfect, but it turns this from a disease that is much more dangerous then the flu, to one that is much less dangerous then the flu.
I hope you and your family stay health.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/21/2021 @ 5:21 amOT Keystone XL
nk (9651fb) — 7/21/2021 @ 5:27 amI never understood why we should butcher America so Canada can more easily ship its heavy crude from warm weather ports. And just exactly what kind of signature did the Europeans and Russia need from Biden?
@121, just a reminder of Trump’s top-10 abuses of power:
10. By not divesting from his international business empire, Trump created a massive conflict of interest where he profited off of the Presidency
9. Firings and forced resignations for corrput personal purposes, including inspector generals, whistleblowers (including pandemic response critics), and the director of national intelligence
8. Conflating his personal interest with national interests and requiring loyalty oaths rather than fidelity to the law and Constitution
7. Threatening to unlawfully withhold $400M in military aid from Ukraine to compel an announcement of an investigation into his chief political rival and his son
6. Abusing the pardon power to insulate his own liability….specifically pardoning individuals like aides Roger Stone, Paul Manafort, Michael Flynn and George Papadopoulos
5. Obstructing the Mueller investigation with the most grievous case being Trump ordering his White House counsel to write a memo falsely stating that Trump never ordered him to fire Mueller
4. Politicizing the Justice Department to serve his own needs…publicly calling for the DoJ to protect him and his allies while harrassing his critics
3. Brazenly using the bully pulpit to intimidate witnesses, spread lies and conspiracies, and bully people, while occasionally praising authoritarian leaders and bad actors
2. Failing to anticipate and suppress the mob action on Jan 6 at the Capitol
1. Spreading provably false information about the 2020 voting process, trying to overturn the legitimate results, pressuring election officials, pressuring the VP to override the electroral vote count, filing dozens of meritless lawsuits, and basically doing untold damage to our election process integrity
But isn’t Mitt Romney bad…..SMDH
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 7/21/2021 @ 5:37 amI’m joining this discussion late and have not read every comment, but I’d like to thank Dana for reminding me that I need to avoid exploding at anti-vaxxers, as I’m inclined to do. Whenever I hear people like Lauren Bobbert or MTG rave on about how they’re absolutely not going to allow anyone to FORCE them to take the vaccine … I want to shoot back: “Who the hell is FORCING you to do anything? Your talk of COERCION is a straw man, and it merely shows you don’t have a serious argument to make.” But I ought to bite my tongue at such times. I find anti-vaxxers insufferably selfish, but I suppose it’s their right to be selfish if they insist. What part of “we’re all in this together” don’t they get?
Roger (e34354) — 7/21/2021 @ 5:39 amSince you put “hyperbole aside.” You must believe the microchip believers are a huge portion of the problem. Surely you wouldn’t be forcing a strawman on is.
Early you asked Dana if she would “accept short snippets taken out of context as documentation?“ (clearly she would as exemplified by her non sourced anti-vax slams of Carlson and Ingraham, which didn’t get the same scrutiny from the faithful that Haiku received.)
I hope to see the documentation of the differing core beliefs of the non-vaccinated and the percentage stake that each of those sub groups hold. Thank you in advance.
Separately, I share your concern about removing the risk from those individuals who “can’t/shouldn’t be vaccinated.” I think Los Angeles has already resolved that with their latest campaign to mask the vaccinated. Apparently masks do wonders beyond the vaccine. I believe that those who can’t/shouldn’t get vaccinated would be eager to wear a mask. I assume they are acutely aware of the science of their personal health vs inoculation if they already know that they would be at risk taking the vaccine. They should follow the science of masks as well, imo.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 6:43 amI’m not sure if those who can’t/shouldn’t get the vaccine have any other choice than to take their health into their own hands and mask up indefinitely. Despite the theory that universal vaccinations will free them of their chains, it looks to me as though the Texas and DC Democrats have proven the serious nature of transmission of Covid from the vaccinated to the vaccinated. I wonder how many of the non-“microchip” hesitant look at a super spreader event like this and become a tad more wary. Although it is very noble to want to get vaccinated to protect others, I imagine a lot of them are curious about protecting themselves. I read a comment on the internet where someone asked where the world would be today if the polio vaccine resulted in you getting a less aggressive version of the affliction. Not quite “microchips,” but maybe hyperbolic nonetheless; although I do believe that an administration that cares about science would be able to do a better job explaining what is going on.
I also noted that the press secretary didn’t mention the vaccine status of the Whitehouse staffers that were infected by the vaccinated individual. Does this mean that there are unvaccinated staffers wandering through the Whitehouse or is she being careful to minimize that infection spread among the vaccinated? Hopefully this gets clarified.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:13 amIt’s always good – and enlightening – to read Tanny’s comments… best wishes to you and yours, Tanny!
My wife and I got our Pfizer shots, first one in February, last in March. We’re not anti-vaxxers, but we are annoyed by blindered people who give bad behavior, arguably destructive hyperbolic statements from lefty politicians a complete pass.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:21 amI need to make a correction. The press secretary did say that there were prior “breakthrough” nfections but didn’t say there were more infections as a result of the vaccinated individual. I still believe that the Whitehouse needs to be a little more transparent about all the breakthroughs to avoid the appearance of not being scientific.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:26 amDoes anyone know how many “commissioned” officers there are in Biden’s administration? I have found that total staff averages close to 400 across administrations and this article from a Bush staffer makes it clear that there are more than 20 commissioned employees:
But I got lost on the formula of how many deputies and so forth. Maybe more coffee will help. My guess is that less than 1/4 of the staff is commissioned. I wonder why they made the decision to not report the infections amongst 3/4 of the employees?
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:48 am@Dana, late to the party here but thank you for this post.
My wife and her family has several events of Guillain-Barre Syndrome historically, so they have very good reasons for not taking most vaccines. (me and my boys has taking both of the pfizer vaccine)
None of them has taken the covid vaccines. Most, however, has already had covid infections and they’ve all exhibited the same sort of varied symptoms (with my wife having the traditional “flu-like” symptoms).
So, for those true anti-vaxxer™ of the Jenny McCarthy cult, I struggle to maintain any sort of grace towards them because it is their behavior that increases the risks to groups who can not/should not take vaccines.
So, I usually refrain from engaging those folks on any level.
As to others, whom are hesitant, the best tact is to simply and calmly explain how the disease works and how the mRNA vaccine works without being a nag about it.
I know I’ve mentioned this before, but I work in healthcare IT in a clinical setting, primarily with clinical pharmacists and other clinical champions at a large academic hospital system. The biggest roadblock to managing a pandemic like this is simply politics.
And on that, we and most of the world failed miserably. Trump failed. Biden failed. The Governors failed. Media failed. Companies and economy failed. The Bureaucracy failed. Even the experts working within the bureaucracy. There are simply no angels covered in glory here. The guardrails that was supposed to protect us politically and individually failed.
There are supposed to be guardrails defined so that the CDC (and others) are allowed to utilize their expertise to give policy-makers informed information so that policy-makers can make decisions unvarnished by partisan political idiocy. I don’t know how or what additional guardrails are needed to address this, but it’s sorely lacking right now.
As an example, mask mandates. There’s still isn’t enough strong evidence that mask does anything to protect against covid (or any viral infections). So, instead of encouraging the mask uses with the mindset that even though that current studies are inconclusive, out of abundance of caution its something we should do… it’s become a partisan power struggle.
However, in the end, we largely succeeded despite those failures in this rapid development of these vaccines. On that score, Trump deserves acclaim in pushing Operation Warpspeed and Biden also deserves acclaim for continuing the program. Our society is getting back to “normal”, albeit much slower than we’d like. To me, that shows how resilient we are.
I echo Simon Jester’s point on how sad this ordeal has become. But, I hope that people take heart of that fact that we’re well on our way to overcoming this pandemic.
whembly (840a86) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:50 amIt’s funny that someone would think most of the commenters here don’t want to “put the left in a bad light.” Being clear-eyed about Donald J. Trump is not the same as trying to protect the left from insult.
Biden and Harris said they would not accept Trump’s word alone on a vaccine. That’s a reasonable position.
On the other side are a lot of Trump voters who disbelieve most medical experts and public health officials, because they chose to believe that Covid was a hoax concocted to make Trump look bad and destroy the economy and create an opportunity to rig an election. Many of those people told pollsters they trusted Trump over medical experts on a medical question. Now they’re listening to partisan talking heads who apparently see being vaccine-skeptical in public as the way to keep the attention of people whose first political principle is to make the libs mad.
Those are largely the same people who trash any Republican official who says the election was not stolen.
Radegunda (33a224) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:53 am@125
nk… those Canadian crude are being shipped to US warm ports anyways, currently by Trucks and Rail.
That isn’t changing.
If folks were truly environmentally conscious, they’d ought to advocate for pipeline delivering crudes as it’s much more safer and less accident-prone than trains/trucks.
whembly (840a86) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:54 amBuduh, about one in five respondents are complete morons who believe there’s a microchip in the vaccine.
https://fox8.com/news/coronavirus/20-of-americans-believe-government-is-injecting-microchips-in-covid-19-vaccines-survey-finds/
So yes, that was a data driven statement.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:22 amA doctor in Alabama who treats Covid patients:
Radegunda (33a224) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:43 amRip, i clicked the link expecting to see a poorly sourced story with a quote too good to be true. But the. Dr. Has a name and seems like a real person. Sad state of affairs. I wish the people with influence (Fox news a Trump) would do something here.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:52 amSorry, that was for Radegunda on 137
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:52 amSounds reliable.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:56 amThat belief is an outgrowth of the right-wing notion that absolutely everything done by the libs is part of a grand scheme to impose communism on us. It also reflects the view that all the dominant institutions are deeply corrupt, and that Trump is the heroic patriot who was striving valiantly to Drain the Swamp and bring honesty back to the government but was brought down by the perfidious Deep State.
There’s reason to be alert to dishonesty and power-grabs by governmental authorities, but it’s unhealthy to suspect that every public institution in America and most of the medical profession are controlled by people with nefarious motives.
Radegunda (33a224) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:57 amTime 123 @139-
If Radegunda hadn’t posted it I would have. 😉
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:59 amWhere in the well sourced story does it say that the afflicted were Fox and Trump loyalists, Time?
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:03 amBuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:03 am-
Where in the well sourced story does it say that the afflicted were Fox and Trump loyalists, Time?
Time didn’t say that. Time said he “wish the people with influence (Fox news a Trump) would do something here.”
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:06 amOh. I see. Fox and Trump have positive influence on Trump and Fox haters.
LOL.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:09 amThe simple fact is that nowhere in the article is the political affiliation of the afflicted mentioned. Time defined that on his own. Otherwise he would have said “I wish Biden/Trump and CNN/Fox would do something here.”
I have other things to do today. I’ll check in later to see the new twist.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:12 amAfter waiting, Steve Scalise gets COVID vaccine, calls it ‘safe and effective’
…….
Why did the No. 2 Republican in the House wait until now?
“Especially with the delta variant becoming a lot more aggressive and seeing another spike, it was a good time to do it,” he said in an interview. “When you talk to people who run hospitals, in New Orleans or other states, 90% of people in hospital with delta variant have not been vaccinated. That’s another signal the vaccine works.”
……
Scalise said he waited, in part, because he tested positive for COVID antibodies a while back – he believes he had a mild case of the virus at some point – and thought he had some immunity from that.
…….
“It’s safe and effective,” Scalise said, noting he supported funding that allowed the Trump administration to fast-track the process. “It was heavily tested on thousands of people before the FDA gave its approval. Some people believe that it might have been rushed. That’s not the case. I’ve been vocal about that for months. I know their process has high standards. The FDA approval process is probably the most respected in the world.”
……..
If Scalise had just stopped right there, it would have been a fine statement endorsing vaccination, but he still needed to suck up to the anti-vaxxers:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:13 amIt could be a suck up to the people, like dana, who think that “shaming” is not the correct way to encourage people.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:17 amThe simple fact is that nowhere in the article is the political affiliation of the afflicted mentioned. Time defined that on his own. Otherwise he would have said “I wish Biden/Trump and CNN/Fox would do something here.”
Given that surveys consistently show that the nonvaccinated are Republicans, Trump supporters, and Fox viewers, endorsements by Biden and CNN would have no impact on the unvaccinated. See the survey linked here.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:18 amI see, the article was reliant on a survey. I missed that part.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:19 amBuduh, If you want to see vax status by party affiliation it’s easy to find. If you can’t find it let me know and I’ll help dig up the polling.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:22 amWhat I want to see is the party affiliation of the afflicted person in the article.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:24 amWhat I want to see is the party affiliation of the afflicted person in the article.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:24 am
I suggest you call Dr. Brytney Cobia, the doctor referenced in the article. I’m sure she is in the telephone book.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:37 amHahaha! Typical cop-out. I wasn’t the one who made the inference. That would be Time with a horrible assist from you.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:39 amLast month Biden was worried about the Tuskegee Airman and how that influences the African American anti-vax community. He also believed that the “Latinix” community was jab shy due to deportations:
https://www.al.com/news/2021/06/biden-confuses-tuskegee-airmen-with-syphilis-study-victims-in-explaining-covid-vaccine-reluctance.html
I wonder why those conspiracy questions weren’t asked in the weighted polls?
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:50 amSince I happened to have a tab open to a Kaiser survey, here’s their summary:
And here’s an AP article on the decline in life expectancies.
Nor are the deaths all of the loss of life years. Some months ago, I saw a claim on Political Betting by a British doctor that the losses from “matchings and hatchings” would be worse there than the losses from “dispatchings”. Translated, he meant that the more important effects, in life years, would be the couples that didn’t form during the pandemic (matchings) and the babies that weren’t born (hatchings) than the deaths (dispatchings).
(A baby that doesn’t get born is a loss of about 80 life years, on average; a seventy-year-old who dies is a loss of about 10.)
Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:52 amThey just don’t take things seriously… https://twitter.com/hale_razor/status/1417559375384702976
Arrive in DC with a case of Miller Lite, leave with 6 cases of Corona…
Colonel Haiku (94c32c) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:06 amOT… it appears RIP missed this… https://nypost.com/2021/07/21/dems-blast-jeff-bezos-space-trip-demand-he-pay-more-taxes/
Colonel Haiku (94c32c) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:15 amBreaking:
Pelosi rejects GOP’s (Jim) Banks, (Jim) Jordan (R-Insurrectionists) for Jan. 6 select committee, saying they may jeopardize ‘integrity of the investigation’
I guess she doesn’t like any one named Jim.
Rip Murdock (1c44e0) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:17 amOT… it appears RIP missed this……
Rip Murdock (1c44e0) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:20 amWhatever. I don’t read the NYP and I don’t care how much Bezos or anyone else pays in taxes.
More Breaking-
McCarthy pulls his 5 GOP members from 1/6 committee after Pelosi rejects 2 of his picks
More theater.
Rip Murdock (1c44e0) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:24 amThe wife of a man I used to work with came down with GBS after taking one of the Covid vaccinations. It was a rough three months for her. She is now back on her feet and not paralyzed. Again just like my adverse reaction to the vaccine it is a very small percentage of the people that take Covid vaccines who have adverse reactions.
The Cleveland clinic study and Israel (see article link above) suggest that those who have previously had Covid have better immunity against getting Covid than those who have been vaccinated. So why are people telling these people that they need to get vaccinated? Why are people who have had Covid and don’t want to take a vaccination being called the disparaging term anti-vaxxer? Why were these people told that they had to wear masks indoors while people who had been vaccinated didn’t have to wear masks indoors?
I have difficulty wearing masks and hyperventilate after wearing them for a very short time. The box the surgical masks I wear if I must, says it doesn’t protect against Covid. If the manufacturer says it doesn’t protect against Covid why are they forcing me to wear masks when I have problems wearing masks? We are now being told that even if we have been vaccinated we must wear masks indoors. Because of that I went and took a Covid test to see if I had gotten it by not wearing masks the last couple of weeks. It came back negative.
Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:29 amAnd Keystone had nothing to do with developing US energy production, its primary purpose was to export Canadian tar sands to the Gulf (as you surely know).
Oil is fungible. And both Trump and Obama had somehow blocked that gas pipeline to Germany, so while it might not properly be ours to decide, it is in fact ours to decide.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:37 am“The unprecedented nature of January 6th demands this unprecedented decision.”
—- MaligNancy Pelosi
So much unprecedented…
MOAR felony charges of selfies, hanging out please!
Colonel Haiku (94c32c) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:37 amAnd just exactly what kind of signature did the Europeans and Russia need from Biden?
The one that both Obama and Trump refused to give.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:38 amThis explains the panicked mincing…
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/meme%2020210721%2000.jpg
Colonel Haiku (94c32c) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:42 am156- Jim Miller, that’s an interested composite person that the Kaiser survey would portend, and probably an aspiring MMA fighter.
Re the 1/6 McCarthy picks, dumbass Pelosi should have just took it as is and found another ex-Buckeye wrestling twink to keep Jordan at bay.
urbanleftbehind (960882) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:43 amAs far as explaining mRNA vaccines, this comic is amazingly spot-on:
https://m.xkcd.com/2425/
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:44 am@158:
“Sen. Bernie Sanders slammed Jeff Bezos for spending money on his space trip while “workers at his company struggle to afford their medical bills, rent, and food for their kids.””
As if Bezos didn’t spend that money hiring people, who then fed their kids, paid their medical bills, paid the rent, etc. To listen to the old windbag, your think that Bezos dumped billions of dollars out into space or something.
But then Bernie has never ever understood the first thing about economics, other than other people seem to be able to make money and all he can do is steal it.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:48 amOil is fungible. And both Trump and Obama had somehow blocked that gas pipeline to Germany, so while it might not properly be ours to decide, it is in fact ours to decide.
What would sanctions at this stage accomplish? In fact, the Obama and Trump Administrations were only able to delay the pipeline, as it is nearly finished.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:00 amThis study is a preprint, but there are indications that vaccine immunity is superior to natural immunity, which is atypical because it’s usually the other way around. But this is still a “novel” coronavirus, so folks are still trying to figure it out. If Trump will take a vaccine after getting infected, I don’t see harm in the rest doing it as well.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:08 amI do agree that the folks with natural immunity should be considered “vaccinated”, for all intents and purposes.
27.
I found my source:
https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-edit-viral-lies-20210720-pttpsrqbwzhv3haes2vko3h2lm-story.html
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:10 amPaul Montagu (5de684) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:08 am
No, it’s usual that natural occurring immunity is stronger, although that may depend on how serious an infection it was.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdch/Waiver_Ed_Natural_Immunity_479884_7.pdf
The vaccine for chicken pox, in particular, often doesn’t produce enough immunity to declare someone immunized. For a while, newly licensed nurses were having a problem getting accepted for work.
Pre-vaccination, according to this website. approximately 11,000 persons with varicella required hospitalization each year. The rate was 2-3 per 1,000 cases among healthy children and 8 per 1,000 cases among adults. Death occurred in approximately 1 in 60,000 cases.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:22 amThe Pfizer and Moderna vaccines produce an unusual level of antibodies
It’s better than Johnson and Johnson or a single shot of Pfizer or Moderna,
Addung a single dose pf a vaccine raises the level. Two does within the same prescribed time period as someone who has no antibodies, adds nothing to a single dose. I think after a longer delay there might be some gain.
Trump was not supposed to get a vaccine within three months of coming down with Covid, especially since he was treated with antibodies. And he didn’t.
The vaccine does not help anybody who is on immunosuppressive drugs due to having been the recipient of a kidney transplant. They are not keeping track of this, I think.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:31 amDeaths from Covid are both badly underestimated, especially if there are many at approximately the same place and time, and somewhat overcounted.
They are underestimated because some people never got a test and weren’t diagnosed, and they can die of clotting problems, but we can get a good idea of how many there were because of the excess deaths figure, and deaths from Covid after hospitalization may be overestimated because they may count anyone with a positive test result as a Covid death when that was maybe not even considered a major contributing factor by the doctors.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:38 amThat is what I said, Sammy.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:42 amI read the preprint article you linked with interest. I noticed that it was specifically checking antibody counts, ignored T-cell immunity, and unlike the Cleveland clinic and Israel didn’t include real world results. I like to see real world results. In Israel they are saying in new cases that 40% have been vaccinated and 1% have previously had Covid. For hospitalization which again is a very small percentage they are seeing 80% have been previously vaccinated. Sorry I can’t remember the number for those who’ve previously had Covid. 0%?
Again I’m not anti-vaccination. I just don’t understand the pressure to vaccinate if you’ve already had Covid and your immunity is higher than if you’re vaccinated. I don’t understand the second class standing for those that have already had Covid compared to those who have been vaccinated. If the CDC is going to say that those who have been vaccinated don’t have to wear masks and those who have previously had Covid have greater immunity, why aren’t they saying that those who have been previously infected don’t have to wear masks either? Why are some using the disparaging term anti-vaxxer for those who’ve already had Covid and don’t want the Covid vaccine because apparently they have a higher immunity than those that have been vaccinated?
I was told that they were following “the science™️“. I don’t think they are following the science if they ignore T-cell immunity and real world results. Just my thoughts.
Maybe some of the people who don’t want to take the Covid vaccine are afraid because of past results of rushing a vaccine. Maybe they are good willed people and not idiots. Some may be idiots, but not all.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4bOHYZhL0WQ
Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:51 am162.
It would be complicated messaging, and then there were people arguing that maybe immunity goes away.
It;s simpler.
Now you can argue that some people maybe only think they got Covid, or the case they got was too mild.
How could they prove they got it? WEll, actually they can – and they may have gotten a booster, too.
They are not really supposed to,. Only well fitted N95 masks are.
The purpose of the mask is to prevent you from giving it to someone else, should you turn out to be infected, and be contagious in the day or so before you feel sick and stay away from people anyway. If 10,000 people wear masks, it should have an effect on the spread.
Of course, good ventilation or being outdoors, especially in the daytime, pretty much prevents that also.
This is on the idea that someone already immune might get a case again. But it’s likely not to be contagious, or can transmit only a mild case.
However. I think the person you give it to, might give a slightly more advanced case to someone else, and after several iterations, you might get a serious case.
A Covid test will only tell you if you have it now. An antibody test (not so available) will tell you if you had it (at least two weeks or so) in the past.
After four to six months, you may have immunity (because of memory B lymphocyte cells in the lymph nodes) but antibodies might not show immunity.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:56 amTanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:51 am
Oh, I think they are following the “the science™️“ Just not the actual facta. Without the ™️.
When you limit and standardize what people are suppose to say, you conserve error. You slow down progress.
This can be exploited by pharmaceutical companies.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:03 pmThen we also have the question if you have been diagnosed positive for Covid, did you really have Covid? From that bastion of
conspiracy theories and rightleft wing reporting, the New York Times.https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/health/coronavirus-testing.html
Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:04 pm@158. Reaganomics.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:05 pmSF: No, it’s usual that natural occurring immunity is stronger…
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:42 am
No, you said:
You said there were indications that it was that way with Covid. I said it was usually the case with all diseases.
In other words, this would not be atypical.
(but they made themselves ignorant)
Now a half excuse is the unusual potentcy of the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines.
They are trying to eliminate this from the world, maybe,
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:09 pmConservative TeeVee Follies; helluva show:
LA senator, Republican John Kennedy rails on Fox against loading up spending on government credit card; Rove concurs. You know— Reaganomics.
This ideology is so damn dead it has to keep burying itself.
Glorious.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:10 pm180.
What I think the New York Times says there is that PCR test is too sensitive and those kind of positive test results that only test positive when that kind of a test is used (or that show an extremely low level of viral material) should be ignored.
Maybe test again in a day or two. But basically, they should just use the less sensitive rapid tests, because that is pretty much all that matters.
It doesn’t say that the test is giving you a false result. Just an irrelevant one.
That article was published on Aug. 29, 2020. I read it then, The article says it was updated on July 3, 2021, but it doesn’t say what they changed. Maybe a link?
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:20 pm147.
A.
But now he heard that the delta variant was worse – and perhaps his immunity wasn’t good enough.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:26 pm137. Radegunda quoting an Alabama web site:
This shiws real confusion, and it is the fauLt of the MASS MEDIA.
It’s tooo late for the vaccine – in fact a week to ten days before you get infected is too late fr=or the vaccine, and getting vaccinated them might make your infection a little worse,
But it;s not too late FOR THE ANTIBODIES.
IF THE HOSPITAL HAS THEM.
And will use them. Maybe against FDA advice. (check of course of those particular antibodies are effective against that variant),
The instant you feel sick you should get the antibodies.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:35 pmWhat I got from the article is that they thought that the PCR test is being cycled too many times and should be cycled no more than 20 times for more accurate results.
It is my understanding that the PCR test doesn’t identify COVID-19, but Covid and if it is cycled too much it can identify Covid from the common cold which would give you a false positive.
So if you received a positive COVID-19 result, did you really have COVID-19? As far as the antibody tests, didn’t someone to some people like to hate take the antibody test four times in the same day from the same nurse and get different results?
Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:38 pmWhy well they only take blood plasma for Covid testing from people who have previously had Covid and refused to take blood plasma from those who have been vaccinated?
Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:40 pmSammy, you said “No, it’s usual that natural occurring immunity is stronger…”
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:55 pmMy “usually the other way around” remark acknowledges that very thing.
Dr. Birx at one time stated that she thought that the Covid death count was 25% too high. It’s my understanding that Washington state had to reduce their Covid death count by 25%. Also, Alameda county in California.
I read the CDC guidelines for doctors for counting a Covid death and I believe it was a little loose.
1. Did the person die of Covid? They are COVID-19 death. I think everyone can agree with that, but the next two?
2. Did the person die with Covid? They are a COVID-19 death. Maybe, maybe not.
3. Even though the person did not test positive for COVID-19, did they have symptoms that might make you think it was COVID-19? They are a COVID-19 death.
It’s incidents from 2 and 3 that makes some people think that this is a conspiracy.
The guy on a motorcycle who crashed into a car at 150 mph died of COVID-19, really?
The guy who died of multiple gunshots and tested positive for COVID-19 died of COVID-19, really?
What are the real numbers?
https://oaklandside.org/2021/06/04/alameda-countys-new-covid-death-toll-is-25-lower-than-thought/
Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:57 pm188. Tanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:40 pm
Because the FDA was not asked to approve taking plasma from people who had been vaccinated but only for the more traditional plasma from oeople who had been sick.
Also: The antibodies from someone infected may be targeted to any place on the virus – from the vaccine, only the spike.
Another reason: The level of antibodies (which is tested before taking the convalescent fluid) is not likely to be as how as from someone who recently had a severe case of Covid.
This is the actual policy:
https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/news/2021/answers-to-common-questions-about-covid-19-vaccines-and-blood-platelet-plasma-donation-eligibility.html
Getting vaccinated won;t remove your eligibility to donate plasma.
More:
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:00 pm190. Tanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:57 pm
It;s both too high and too low.
It doesn’t include undiagnosed cases. On the other hand, it includes, in the first approximation at least anyway, anyone with a positive test result, or, in the days when they couldn’t test people. who was suspected of having Covid, who later died.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:08 pm“I guess she doesn’t like any one named Jim.”
Well, that makes it mutual. I have never forgiven Pelosi for her tolerance of corruption*, and for forcing Jane Harman out of Congress.
(*I once joked that she should go ahead and require committee chairmen to have ethical and/or legal problems, since a majority of her choices did have such problems.)
Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:16 pm189. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:55 pm
Oh, I see.
I somehow misread “vaccine immunity is [usually] superior to natural immunity (with Covid) as meaning the opposite. I didn’t see it even though I went back to the source and quoted it. It’s a little like not noticing the word “the” appearing twice in a row. (in two rows, actually)
I didn’t click on the link.
I thought the Covid vaccines might be an exception because they were designed to evoke a very strong immune reaction.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:17 pm#167 urbanleftbehind – That’s a better guess than any I have been able to come up with.
Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:19 pmAccording to the Kaiser survey, those who fear the COVID vaccines often worry that they might cause infertility.
A similar vaccine fear can be found in Pakistan and other Muslim countries:
As you probably know, some Pakistanis have been murdered for distributing the polio vaccine. We should admire the bravery of those women who continue to do this work, in spite of the risks. Quietly, so as not to increase the dangers they face.
Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:31 pmAs you probably know, some Pakistanis have been murdered for distributing the polio vaccine. We should admire the bravery of those women who continue to do this work, in spite of the risks. Quietly, so as not to increase the dangers they face.
The US set up real vaccination campaigns for failure in Pakistan when we ran a fake hepatitis vaccination campaign as part of the Bin Laden investigation.
Rip Murdock (1c44e0) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:40 pmI’m in WA State and I follow the news pretty closely, but I never heard such a thing.
That’s not how I’ve understood the guidelines, which is a best effort to document cause of death. If anything, going by excess mortality, CV19 deaths are under-counted.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:50 pmIt is a concern that a motorcycle crash would be classified a CV19 death, but at least one in FL was corrected. The system isn’t perfect, but I think 625k deaths from the virus is reasonable.
Tanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:38 pm
Not more accurate. Less sensitive. (of course alot of the time it might be detecting destroyed virus)
I;m not sure
There are four coronaviruses that cause only the common cold. One is now thought by some to have ben the 1890 “flu”
But presumably, the test is looking for something specific to Covid-19.
I don’t know. I didn’t read anything like that. It’s supposed to have a small number of false results when done properly
https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3325
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:56 pmTanny – I, too, live in Washington state and can not recall hearing about any 25 percent reduction in the COVID death count.
If you are interested in the best measure of COVID deaths, I would suggest you look at “excess mortality” estimates. Among others, the New York Times has done some for the US, and the Economist is doing them for many nations. (I assume you understand the concept; if not, there are people who regularly post here who can explain it.)
Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/21/2021 @ 2:15 pmIt was in Alameda, County, California that they reduced the death total by 2% (in June)
https://oaklandside.org/2021/06/04/alameda-countys-new-covid-death-toll-is-25-lower-than-thought/
A year ago, they reduced it a little in Washington State:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htmhington-officials-reduce-covid-19-death-toll-by-39
This discusses calculating excess deaths:
https://www.q13fox.com/news/was
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 7/21/2021 @ 2:28 pmAccording to the Kaiser survey, those who fear the COVID vaccines often worry that they might cause infertility.
I hope they do cause infertility. It would be a load off my mind.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 3:37 pmThe CBS Eening News reports that the CDC says there are niow 500 cases of “breakthrough” Covid infections (currently i?)
There will be a news story about this ttomorrow.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:11 pm201 25% not 2%
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:12 pmThe CBS Evening News reports that the CDC says there are niow 500 cases of “breakthrough” Covid infections (currently i?)
And I’m sure they will be sure to talk about the 150 million vaccinated people where it has not broken through. The problem we have is that wild-assed assertions sell more deodorant than calmly explained facts.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:27 pmBecause I have problems breathing when wearing a mask can anyone point me to a Randomized Control Trial (preferably double blind) that proves that by wearing a mask I prevent someone else from getting Covid? I know about the Danish trial which didn’t prove that mask wearing prevents the wearer or someone else from getting Covid.
I know that there are dozens of RCTs regarding the efficacy of masks and the flu which state unequivocally that masks do not prevent the spread of the flu virus. Apparently, I’m told that the flu is not caught the same way as Covid. So everything that applies to the flu virus doesn’t apply to the Covid virus. I’m confused. I’m not trying to be snarky here. I really want to know and have not been able to find anything on my own.
In the past I have spent a lot of time looking at peer reviewed papers and RTC’s regarding food and found that studies are generally garbage and are not useful. So I’m not looking for a study. I’m looking for an RTC which is the gold standard for clinical trials.
Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc) — 7/21/2021 @ 6:07 pmTanny @ 117
Sorry if it was tough to navigate. I’m pretty good with maps and was able to zoom in deep and then make an educated guess which was my zip code.
steveg (ebe7c1) — 7/21/2021 @ 6:55 pmIf my zip was 93105 in Santa Barbara Southern CA, I’d zoom in on Pt Conception, fade right along the coast and click on the foothills away from the Pacific. I already know the zip codes run higher from south to north here so if I clicked on 93103 by accident, I’d know the adjacent zip
to the north would be 93105 (i also know there is no 93104 zip)
And that’s just from the Texas Democrat delegation.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:25 pm“How to reach vaccine skeptics”
Step 1: Be a COVID
Step 2: Wait a little while and find yourself reaching vaccine skeptics all the time
Dustin (15f8c2) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:26 pmOne way that might work: Everyone has to wear a mask everywhere, even in the shower, until we get to 90% vaccinated. Or maybe it just gets the revolution started early.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:37 pmBiden would have more credibility on vaccination efforts if he was little more enforcement-minded about the border.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:43 pm@209 Yes. And when vaccine skeptics get together, it’s party time for the virus!
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:45 pm