Patterico's Pontifications

7/5/2021

David French, Kmele Foster, and Thomas Chatterton Williams Misrepresent a Key Aspect of the Laws Banning Critical Race Theory

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 5:09 pm



I am a big fan of David French, Kmele Foster, and Thomas Chatterton Williams. Today, those gentlemen, in addition to someone named Jason Stanley (with whom I am unfamiliar) have a piece in the New York Times titled Anti-Critical Race Theory Laws Are Un-American.

They make some good points in the piece, and I have been dubious about the laws due to the imprecision of some of the language they contain. For example, French, Foster, Williams, and Stanley identify this flaw in the Tennessee law:

Because these laws often aim to protecting the feelings of hypothetical children, they are dangerously imprecise. State governments exercise a high degree of lawful control over K-12 curriculum. But broad, vague laws violate due process and fundamental fairness because they don’t give the teachers fair warning of what’s prohibited. For example, the Tennessee statute prohibits a public school from including in a course of instruction any “concept” that promotes “division between, or resentment of” a “creed.” Would a teacher be violating the law if they express the opinion that the creeds of Stalinism or Nazism were evil?

I think the Tennessee lawmakers intended the use of the word “creed” to apply to religious beliefs, but it has another definition and is ambiguous. Here, the authors make a good point, and this is but one example of many.

That said, I think French, Foster, Williams, and Stanley run off the rails when they talk about the laws’ provisions relating to making children feel guilty for being white. Here is what they say:

The laws differ in some respects but generally agree on blocking any teaching that would lead students to feel “discomfort, guilt or anguish” because of one’s race or ancestry, as well as restricting teaching that subsequent generations have any kind of historical responsibility for actions of previous generations. They attempt various carve outs for the “impartial teaching” of the history of oppression of groups. But it’s hard to see how these attempts are at all consistent with demands to avoid discomfort. These measures would, by way of comparison, make Germany’s uncompromising and successful approach to teaching about the Holocaust illegal, as part of its goal is to infuse them with some sense of the weight of the past, and (famously) lead many German students to feel “anguish” about their ancestry.

Indeed, the very act of learning history in a free and multiethnic society is inescapably fraught. Any accurate teaching of any country’s history could make some of its citizens feel uncomfortable (or even guilty) about the past. To deny this necessary consequence of education is, to quote W.E.B. Du Bois, to transform “history into propaganda.”

(Italics are theirs. Bold emphasis is mine.)

If French, Foster, Williams, and Stanley were accurately characterizing the laws, I would be in agreement with them here. Our kids simply must be taught the history of slavery and Jim Crow, just like German kids need to be taught about the Holocaust. No sane person disagrees. And an accurate account of that history of governmental oppression of one race no doubt “could” and likely “would” cause many kids to feel anguish. Banning laws that “could” or “would” cause kids such anguish cannot possibly stand.

Here’s the thing, though: that’s not what the laws say. Instead, they make a very important distinction by banning teachers from teaching kids that individuals “should” (not could, not would, but should) feel anguish on account of their race or sex. In other words, the laws target the project of some anti-racists to make white people feel guilty simply because of the color of their skin.

Here is the relevant language from Texas’s law, for example:

No teacher, administrator, or other employee in any state agency, school district, campus, open-enrollment charter school, or school administration shall shall [sic] require, or make part of a course the following concepts: (1) one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex; (2) an individual, by virtue of his or her race or sex, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously; (3) an individual should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly because of his or her race or sex; (4) members of one race or sex cannot and should not attempt to treat others without respect to race or sex; (5) an individual’s moral character is necessarily determined by his or her race or sex; (6) an individual, by virtue of his or her race or sex, bears responsibility for actions committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex; (7) any individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress on account of his or her race or sex; or (8) meritocracy or traits such as a hard work ethic are racist or sexist, or were created by a members [sic] of a particular race to oppress members of another race.

All emphasis there is mine.

Similar language is used in laws in other states, including states cited by the authors, such as Iowa and Oklahoma.

It is an uncomfortable fact that many so-called “anti-racists” want all white people, including kids, to believe that they should feel guilt simply due to the color of their skin. The extraordinarily famous and wealthy “anti-racist” author Robin DiAngelo tells white people that all white people are racist. All over the country, radical (and mostly white) progressives are leading other white people in struggle sessions where whites confess their guilt for the heinous sin of being clothed in white skin.

Is this rampant insanity spreading to the classroom? There are hints of it happening in the places you would expect, but it hardly seems to be an epidemic, especially in the red states where these laws are being passed. That said, crazy anecdotes are not difficult to find. You can understand why people who oppose this kind of nonsense don’t want it taught to their kids.

Such poisonous teaching is quite different from teaching subjects (like slavery) that could or even would make kids feel anguish at what members of their race have done. But the purpose of teaching kids about slavery and Jim Crow is to provide kids with an accurate picture of history . . . not to shame them for having the same white skin that (most) oppressors from the past also had. In my judgment, absolutely nothing positive comes from a program of instruction that intends as one of its goals to make children feel shame or anguish because of their skin color. As far as I know, German teachers are not trying to make German kids feel bad for the offense of being German. If they are, that’s wrong and should not happen.

What about the free speech angle? As a matter of pure constitutional law, lawmakers have greater authority to dictate K-12 curricula than to dictate the content of university instruction, which has much stronger free-speech protections. The authors implicitly recognize this, without openly admitting it, in this passage:

Other laws appear to potentially ban even expression as benign as support for affirmative action, but it’s far from clear. In fact, shortly after Texas passed its purported ban on critical race theory, the Texas Public Policy Foundation, a conservative think tank, published a list of words and concepts that help “identify critical race theory in the classroom.” The list included terms such as “social justice,” “colonialism” and “identity.” Applying these same standards to colleges or private institutions would be flatly unconstitutional.

Placing to one side whether affirmative action is “benign” — which depends heavily on what that term is used to mean — this passage implicitly acknowledges that certain rules that would not fly as applied to university professors can pass constitutional muster when applied to K-12 curricula.

Ultimately, I am disappointed by this piece — and not just because it inaccurately characterizes an important provision of the laws it purports to critique. I am also disappointed because I would actually like to know how French, Foster, and Williams feel about the actual concept banned by these laws: teaching children that they should feel anguish because they are white. That would be interesting to read. Unfortunately, I was deprived of that far more interesting discussion, in favor of an easy-to-defend opinion (hey, sometimes you gotta teach kids things that bother them!) that derives its convincing force in part from strawmanning the laws.

That’s disappointing. I have put my criticisms in a thread on Twitter. So far, no response from any of them.

As I have said before: I am not a big supporter of these laws in general, for some of the reasons discussed in the piece. The laws do indeed run a danger of being overinclusive (see the Tennessee law’s ban on criticism of any “creed”). But any criticism of the laws has to be accurate about what the laws actually say, or the criticism loses credibility. That’s what happened today. I hope the authors will address this point and clarify it for readers who were confused by their misleading description of the laws in question.

102 Responses to “David French, Kmele Foster, and Thomas Chatterton Williams Misrepresent a Key Aspect of the Laws Banning Critical Race Theory”

  1. Where I’m bothered by anti-CRT laws is when they tread into the arena of how a discussion makes a student feel uncomfortable, which is a bit nebulous as to where that line is…and should be (obviously extreme examples are easy….it’s the insinuations that the teacher makes that might be more subtle).

    Critical Race Theory is thinking about how race matters in law and institutions. It’s not racial sensitivity training….though obviously discussions could go in that direction once students start expressing how they feel about say differences in criminal justice statistics. CRT is also not about advocating for racial reparations…..though again, discussions about segregation, inherited wealth, and community wealth gaps could steer the exercise in a distinctive political advocacy direction. The problem is that there are usually two sides to political questions…..and how do you ensure that both sides get a fair shake….and how do such discussions avoid deteriorating rapidly….and offending people?

    I would always lean toward evidence-based learning rather than who feels what….and try to ensure objectivity….with the curriculum clearly spelling out the key discussion points….and what is specifically testable and whats not (and if it’s not, why are we doing it?). School seems like a especially bad place for group therapy posed as critical thinking. I think that is what people would like to avoid. I worry that we will see kids manipulate the intent of these laws to get away from work. That would be unfortunate.

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  2. One of the most insidious things about teaching that “all white people are racist” is that it fails to differentiate white people’s actual racial attitudes in degree. Not only does this fail to separate virulent racism, like cross-burning, from subtler racism, like varied expectations based on race, but it also says that IT DOESN’T MATTER. If you’re white, you are irredeemable.

    No amount of bowing and scraping will free you from your sins (inherited or inherent). The next step on this path is Black Supremacy, as the only fair remedy to white perfidy.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  3. There’s plenty of room for you both to be right.

    Take Ohio House Bill 322, for example. It bans any teaching materials that “serve to inculcate” the problematic concepts – like white people should feel guilty or bear responsibility for past discrimination.

    What’s that mean? I don’t know. But it certainly sounds like a “dangerously imprecise” chilling law than the narrowly tailored focus on intent that Patterico sees.

    DB Cooper (5e5b7d)

  4. The next step on this path is Black Supremacy,

    An ideology holding that all white people are innately guilty of racism while no black person could possibly be racist is already claiming moral supremacy for all black people — particularly when the ideology also holds that racist attitudes (quite apart from actions) are the worst of all sins.

    I don’t have any ancestors who ever participated in slavery or segregation, and I think it would be hard to find racially discriminatory actions among them. I know that my father as a young man confronted a coworker from the South over his rude treatment of black customers. The teaching I received in childhood was very much “All are equal in God’s sight.” What genetic guilt could I harbor with respect to race?

    I do think that parts of this country’s racial history were unjustifiably glossed over in my schooling. But teaching some kids that they are guilty by birth and that their very being victimizes other children is not just intellectually mistaken; it’s noxious and evil.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  5. Meanwhile, Chinese and Russian students are directed to focus their energies honing competitive skills learning math, science, engineering and elements of the periodic table to compete. Not debating elements of topical social sciences.

    Been to Russian HS- the kids spoke fluent English; and they along w/t faculty would be amused by yet another American education sociological distraction. Learned, being schooled overseas, just how lazy the bulk of American students are; they play too much, work too little and lack the discipline and drive necessary to excel. And, of course, French is irrelevant.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  6. the nyt knew what they could expect from french and he delivered

    as for these laws, they’re no less navigable than the byzantine rules governing religious content and preferences in the schools, student free speech, transgender accommodation, among many others

    the only difference of course is that the school guild likes those rules and doesn’t like these

    as for the achievement gap, you’d have to remind the guild what that is exactly

    JF (e1156d)

  7. https://www.zinnedproject.org/news/pledge-to-teach-truth

    The communists at the Zinn project are promising to indoctrinate your kids no matter what the law says.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  8. I don’t have any ancestors who ever participated in slavery or segregation

    My people came here after the civil war, and mostly ended up in California fter working ton the railroads. I cannot speak to how they behaved working side-by-side with freed slaves. The Irish did not have an easy time of it and here may have been competition.

    I think it would be hard to find racially discriminatory actions among them. What genetic guilt could I harbor with respect to race?

    Sadly, I cannot say the same. My parents came late to civil rights, and it caused some difficulty between them and my sister and me. The “Generation Gap” was not a mere invention.

    But still, I deny any guilt; I am not my parents. I am able to see people for who they are and not what they look like, and any remaining racism — that of expectations — I attribute more to statistics and the neglect of the State, particularly as regards public education.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. The main thing that blacks can rightly point to is a debt that they may be owed, based on uncompensated labor and centuries of oppression that robbed them of the opportunities other Americans enjoyed, even us Irish eventually. But that debt is not owed by the common man, who often received little more along the way. I could see the Old Families owing something though. I wonder if they have it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. 9.The main thing that blacks can rightly point to is a debt that they may be owed, based on uncompensated labor and centuries of oppression that robbed them of the opportunities other Americans enjoyed, even us Irish eventually.

    Rightly? So sorry to have robbed ’em of the legacy luxury of life, condemning ’em for generations to live in jungle huts clad in skins hunting wild boar with spears with no compensation other than a future in the USA– and to rob Irish of their six packs and potatoes at gunpoint on the south side of Chicago. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  11. I thought the “we civilized them” argument went out with Calhoun. Or at least Jeff Davis.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  12. Wow DCSCA, that’s amazingly racist. Only way to top that would be to replace ‘them’ with actual slurs.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  13. IANAL and the laws as writing seem pretty defensible, even if they’re like the anti-Sharia Law bill Oklahoma passed a few years back; a solution in search of a problem. My concern is around application and burden of proof.

    Am I correct that the debate will be around the intent of the lesson? Or if the teacher refrains from directly telling children “You should feel badly about this.” Are they in clear? Or does this leave a cause of action for the kinds of nimrods that viewed NPRs reading of the Declaration of Independence as an attack on America?

    I fully agree that the critique should be based on the laws as written.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  14. This David French?

    Feds Play the Race Card to Crush Parents’ Revolt Against Common Core

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/04/feds-play-race-card-crush-parents-revolt-against-common-core-david-french/

    Oh, that was from 2015, something in him must have changed.

    Obudman (0f5387)

  15. So sorry to have robbed ’em of the legacy luxury of life, condemning ’em for generations to live in jungle huts clad in skins …

    Actually, the trans-Atlantic trade ones were either inter-tribal warfare captives or surplus subject population, and their other choice was to be slaughtered and possibly eaten. The subsequent “blackbirding” trade involved the hope of escape from abject poverty and starvation, which turned out to be “from the frying pan into the fire”.

    nk (1d9030)

  16. and to rob Irish of their six packs and potatoes at gunpoint on the south side of Chicago. 😉

    No, the South Side Irish have allied themselves with the Italians to form the safest enclaves in Chicago. It was black people who shot more black people this weekend than the police will shoot in a year.

    nk (1d9030)

  17. “The main thing that blacks can rightly point to is a debt that they may be owed”

    Reparations brings up more questions than answers. It’s not just who should pay and who should receive but how to even do the accounting of harm and what is the equitable payout. Mass immigration of whites and blacks since slavery simply confounds the entire enterprise, as does the mixing of races. How do we account for the 300,000 white union soldiers who died at least in part to usher in the 13th amendment and the end of slavery? How do we place value on all of the affirmative action programs and anti-poverty programs targeted at minorities since the landmark civil rights law?

    Blacks now constitute 12% of the middle class (13% of the overall population). Structurally there is no job or profession that is closed off as a legacy of slavery or segregation. Slavery and segregation don’t seem to explain why some blacks make it to the middle class and above…..while others are mired in poverty. If you make a middle-class or better income, the past does not stop you from accumulating wealth…..and making investments. Every day blacks are starting up businesses without the legacy of segregation stopping them. Yes, black home ownership (~45%) lags white home ownership by about 30% (!)….but savings rates also lag. I don’t think we want mortgage practices driven by racial outcomes, do we?

    Reparations are an appeal to white guilt, but I recently ran across an interesting quote from Frederick Douglass: “Everybody has asked the question… ‘What shall we do with the Negro?’ I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own
    strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature’s plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!…”

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  18. AJ, I have no interest in any sort of direct payment to individuals. Even we answered every question with “Screw it and spend the money” I don’t think it would be effective.

    There persists a significant and quantifiable gap in outcome between black people and whites people in all of the attainment metrics I’m familiar with. It’s been reducing, but until we improve society to the point where that gap has been reduced to measurement error I think continued efforts are needed.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  19. Time123,

    Equality of opportunity is all you can offer, not equity of outcome. The latter is slavery as you are forcing all to the same level. That may make leftists happy, but it won’t improve the lot of anyone.

    NJRob (6c60cc)

  20. I have a hard time debating this topic, so I usually just lurk.

    I have a hard time, because we need to be absolutely precise with the terms when discussing CRT and these laws. Far too often, the CRT adherents conflates the topics to muddy the waters.

    @Patterico, I applaud you for taking the time to break this down for us “laymens” and I believe you are correct in your conclusions.

    whembly (849622)

  21. NJRob,

    1. We don’t have equality of opportunity now. Nothing even close to it. My kids, kids growing up in the foster system, and the kids of a billionaire have nothing even resembling equal opportunities.

    2. I’m not saying we need to force every individual to have the same outcome. That’s also no possible. But, when outcome gaps are extremely clear and fully persistent along racial lines I assert that’s evidence that the steps taken to address historical oppression haven’t hit the point where we can say ‘we’ve done enough’. I also hold that out as my measure for when we could reasonably assert that.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  22. “There persists a significant and quantifiable gap in outcome”

    Sure, but is the cause legacy effects of slavery or is it something else? There’s no question that there is residual racism….and stereotyping…..but the laws and culture don’t accept, promote, or excuse it. Most businesses simply can’t afford to alienate segments of the population…..and internet reviews reinforce wanted behavior.

    I’m arguing that much that remains to be done is cultural…and cuts across racial lines. Black out-of-wedlock births are at 70%. That means lots of single female heads of house and absent father figures. The Klan couldn’t have planned a better way to attack black neighborhoods. This contributes to out-of-control black-on-black crime….and feeds the education achievement gap. No GED (or a subpar knowledge base) and a criminal record, how is that a foundation for being employable and upwardly mobile? Mix in a low savings rate….and the crime and drugs driving away economic investment and you have most poor neighborhoods.

    There’s no magic wand to change culture…but step one can’t be to avoid the elephant in the room. That’s my fear with police violence and now reparations. Neither addresses the crux of the problem (though policing does need to be addressed).

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  23. @12. ‘Blazing Prattles’ – the sequel. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  24. the post is about anti-crt laws and we get whatabout comments about outcomes, as if crt has anything to do with that

    JF (6228e1)

  25. AJ, the only part I of what you wrote that I would quibble with is the question around the legacy of slavery. I’d add Jim Crow to that. I’d also say that since we can’t find a time after slavery or Jim Crow that the gap has been closed that’s probably the primary driver. I’d also add that it’s been getting better every year. Which is good.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  26. Whembly, good comment. I share a lot of your concerns. I think everyone wants to attack the most extreme position of their opposition here while only focusing on the most easily justified part of theirs.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  27. @24 So do you have anything interesting to say about Anti-CRT laws or did you just want to police the thread? If you’re looking for jumping in point I had a question / concern in comment 13.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  28. Time123,

    we certainly do have freedom of opportunity way more than any society at any time in history. You may read a science fiction book and think that’s reality, but it’s not.

    Why should Obama’s kids get preferred treatment over a West Virginia coal miner’s? Why should a white kid from the inner city be discriminated against in college education and job opportunities when he didn’t “come from privilege?”

    And on and on.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  29. “educators”? Watch the snake eat its tail… the majority of Americans find this outrageously offensive… but you be the Marxist you, NEA!

    French is full of it, as usual.

    (It calls for) the accurate and honest teaching of social studies topics, including truthful and age-appropriate accountings of unpleasant aspects of American history, such as slavery, and the oppression and discrimination of Indigenous, Black, Brown, and other peoples of color, as well as the continued impact this history has on our current society.
    (The union will publicize) an in-depth, study that critiques empire, white supremacy, anti-Blackness, anti-Indigeneity, racism, patriarchy, cisheteropatriarchy, capitalism, ableism, anthropocentrism, and other forms of power and oppression at the intersections of our society, and that we oppose attempts to ban critical race theory and/or The 1619 Project.

    https://ra.nea.org/business-item/2021-nbi-039/

    Colonel Haiku (5d3e21)

  30. @28, Rob, I think it’s fair to say we have way more opportunity then most societies throughout history. But that doesn’t directly address my point.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  31. You are equating outliers to the norm. Outliers are removed because they destroy statistical analysis. A better question to ask is why is a minority from an inner city school favored over a non-minority from the same school when it comes to future opportunities?

    And CRT wants that white kid to feel bad about his life even though he’s growing up with a lack of opportunity.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  32. Well said, Rob. On point.

    Colonel Haiku (5d3e21)

  33. A separate mode for a subgroup isn’t an outlier, it’s a separate mode.

    Also, you’re asking me to defend specific solution sets that I haven’t advocated.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  34. @27 i commented @6

    whemby @20 predicted the inevitable muddying of waters

    can you link crt to better outcomes, or even a concern for better outcomes?

    give it a go

    JF (6228e1)

  35. Hey CH, last week you asked for an example of a time you lied. I posted it to that thread but you never said if you saw it. Did you? Or do you want me to re-post it?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  36. “We are in a cultural civil war and more divided than we’ve ever been.” – William J. Bennett, 7/6/21

    Wanna bet?

    Sure you do.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  37. One of the problems I have with Affirmative Action, or the more recent euphemism “diversity”, is that basing decisions on race — when they are aimed at helping the disadvantaged — is often ineffective. I see no reason, for example, why hiring a black lawyer from Harvard produces diversity that hiring a white lawyer from Harvard would.

    That black lawyer might never have lived in the “diverse” conditions that would create a a diversity of life experience. Barack Obama, for example, who not only went to a private school in Hawaii, far from any ghetto, and raised by white folk almost entirely, but has not even a genetic conection to American blacks, Jim Crow or slavery.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  38. Why should Obama’s kids get preferred treatment over a West Virginia coal miner’s? Why should a white kid from the inner city be discriminated against in college education and job opportunities when he didn’t “come from privilege?”

    Honk[y]-Honk[y]– the squeaky wheel gets the oil. You know; ‘reparations.’

    That’s why.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  39. Equity = Equality… as far as he understands it.

    Colonel Haiku (5d3e21)

  40. Kevin, We’d probably close the gaps in attainment by race just with a strong focus on poverty over all.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  41. Hey CH, did you still need that example of you lying?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  42. The difference between the America of 1961 and the America of 2021 is night and day- or Otis Day and the Knights, if you like.

    It’s much better.

    Those attention-seekers pulling wedgies on Miss Liberty merely seek to divide. They’re not very sharp; merely Sharptons. But some brain-damaged potato peelers take the bait:

    “Well I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.” – Squinty McStumblebum

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  43. Time: “Jim Crow…that’s probably the primary driver”

    That’s not what I’m reading. I’m seeing that the wealth gap (10:1 between typical white and black family, which is extraordinary) is primarily driven by an income gap (blacks make about 73% of whites make, not sure what is controlled for in that stat…which is kind of key). So what drives the income gap (though it is also notable about the size of intergenerational transfers (inheritance), but it’s unclear if this is tilted mightily by the super rich)? Is is active racism? I suppose it might depend on the economic sector…but there are a lot of people trying to sniff out discrimination….and even avoid the appearance of racial bias. Just think about all of the EEOC and compliance officers and HR/diversity administrators who are tasked with guarding against systemic racism. I think a lot of the gap has roots in the family structure gap….and how that effects future prospects. Here’s an article that at least pulls some data in that direction

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/03/family-structure-important-black-boys-economic-opportunity/

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  44. Time123,

    You realize you are deliberately harassing Colonel now and not discussing anything, right?

    NJRob (bdfbaf)

  45. Just look at the racist behind the 1619 Project. Complete nonsense devoid of scholarship, but feted about and worshiped by the left. They guilted UNC into offering her tenureship that she didn’t deserve, then she turns around, rejects it and calls them racist.

    Couldn’t happen to a more deserving group though. These universities have bred this type of hatred for decades. May it bury them.

    NJRob (bdfbaf)

  46. NJRob, He asked for that proof on another thread and then the thread died without him acknowledging that he’d seen it. I don’t know if he did or not. All I’m looking for is confirmation that he saw it, it was a little annoying to look up so I think the least he can do is let me know that he saw the info he asked for.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  47. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/6/2021 @ 9:20 am

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/6/2021 @ 9:58 am

    Time123, these comments are not a good look for you. You must endeavor to resist the temptation to snipe in the future. As for the Colonel’s non-response, I have always felt that not responding to a commenter’s snipe was not just good judgement, but a demonstration of self-control.

    felipe (484255)

  48. I did a little more reading on OP at lunch. What I can’t find is what ‘shall require’ means in application.

    Commentary ranges from ‘shall require’ being a high bar that would apply only to the most heavy handed lessons to a very low bar where plaintive could make a claim that any detailed discussion of racist historical events would apply and I have no way to tell which is correct. Would love if any of the lawyers on this site have an informed opinion.

    The other concern about this is what risk limiting steps schools are likely to take. If ‘shall require’ is ambiguous generally then schools can’t tell either and it would provide incentive to just not teach historical events that make people feel uncomfortable.

    I think a better law would be one that more clearly codifies what counts as emotional abuse. The examples of bad outcomes I’ve seen all had that as the common factor and rather then focus on subject matter we could focus on what seems to a less contested point; that children shouldbn’t be emotionally abused.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  49. Felipe, I find his dishonesty and snide comments annoying. But since you consistently set a great example for behavior I’m going to follow your advice going forward. Thank you for offering it.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  50. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/6/2021 @ 1:16 pm

    I recall that convo, Time. In my opinion, you had won the point. The matter was best left as settled. But you, yourself, squandered the esteem, from other readers, you unknowingly won, by this petty sniping. How difficult it is to win esteem from this group, but how easy it is to throw away.

    felipe (484255)

  51. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/6/2021 @ 1:27 pm

    Well said, time123. This community is better for your comments.

    felipe (484255)

  52. I am the polar opposite of Michael Jackson. I wouldn’t mind being black, and I hate kids!

    norcal (25df9b)

  53. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/6/2021 @ 9:57 am

    Kevin, We’d probably close the gaps in attainment by race just with a strong focus on poverty over all.

    Can you elaborate on this? What sort of focus? Would this only be a focus on poor black peoples? If this is a focus independent of race it’s likely the gap wouldn’t really change if “all boats rose”.

    I’m also wondering how this focus would be different from the LBJ war on poverty?

    frosty (f27e97)

  54. I want some white guy to have the New York Trumpian balls to heckle Al Sharpton every time he opens his cake hole by yelling ‘Tawana Brawley’ every three seconds at him when he tries to outgas “outrage” into the microphones.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  55. Usually there’s a consistent set of comments that come up on this issue; it isn’t happening, if it is it’s not a problem, if it’s a problem blame the local school board not the teachers.

    Now that this is coming from the NEA are we at least done with this wash, rinse, repeat routine?

    frosty (f27e97)

  56. About 40% of people living in poverty are non-Hispanic white

    “…[T]he most recent official poverty report from the U.S. Census Bureau; income and Poverty in the United States was released September 2018 and reports on data for 2017.

    According to the report, nearly 39.7 million people were living in poverty in the United States in 2017. Of that group, 17 million were non-Hispanic whites. That means that non-Hispanic whites accounted for 42% of all people living in poverty.”

    https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/may/16/viral-image/about-40-people-living-poverty-are-non-hispanic-wh/

    Keep poking a polar bear with a pointed stick and it is going to get mad.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  57. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/6/2021 @ 7:58 am

    We don’t have equality of opportunity now. Nothing even close to it. My kids, kids growing up in the foster system, and the kids of a billionaire have nothing even resembling equal opportunities.

    This isn’t a racial thing. My kids don’t have the same opportunities as Bill Gates or Tyler Perry. How would you propose fixing this? Nothing in CRT fixes this unless we’re falling back on the marxism at it’s core.

    I also think this blown out of proportion. Most examples tend to revert to the mean over several generations and kids who are able to retain or grow wealth are usually doing something other than the high profile trust fund hijinks.

    frosty (f27e97)

  58. Frosty, i still don’t think this is a significant problem. I put it on the same level of threat that was creeping Sharia law a few years ago or kids eating tide pods more recently. Non-zero but minor.

    When I said poverty focus I didn’t have a position paper to offer. But my thinking was that given the overlap between black and poverty a rising tide would raise all ships.

    The comments about equality were a separate conversation based on AJ’s comment. I’m not sure how regression to the means works for black Americans. Would be interesting to see data on that if it exists.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  59. I realize this is a discussion of the legal argument, but I like this laymans view from Reynolds at instapundit
    “Saying that you can’t discuss race without teaching critical race theory is like saying you can’t discuss stars without teaching astrology.”

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  60. Pressed for time, but the idea I had in my head was what Texas put in place where the top students of each HS could go to any school they wanted.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  61. Steve, that sounds clever, but it makes me wonder what the phrase “critical race theory” means in the sentence

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  62. Re Times’ point about the top 10% of Texas’ HS graduates getting acceptance/aid to a choice of in-state schools, I wonder if makes the parents of a, for lack of better term, 14 yr old Steve Urkel think twice deciding between staying in a city school district and moving to a farther out suburban district.

    urbanleftbehind (16cfcd)

  63. The top 9 percent of California high school graduates are offered a guaranteed space at a UC campus, if space is available.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  64. #55: “Emperor” Xi and “Czar” Putin would like your idea.

    (Some may have forgotten one of the Czar’s coups in election interference: In 2016 his agents managed to inspire two opposed demonstrations in Texas.

    It is unfortunate for Russia that Putin has not brought his cleverness to bear on the COVID disaster there.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  65. @65. But Sharpton wouldn’t– and the public needs a refresher:

    ‘Sharpton’s former aide, Perry McKinnon, said that Sharpton, Maddox, and Mason were unconcerned with Brawley, and were using the case to “tak[e] over the town,” as he had heard Sharpton say that the case could make him and Brawley’s other two advisers “the biggest n-ggers in New York.”’

    – source, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawana_Brawley_rape_allegations

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  66. 66. That’s not news. That’s why it is in the Wikipedia article.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  67. @67. It’s news to new generations, Sammy, who don’t know his history.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  68. 49. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/6/2021 @ 1:24 pm

    we could focus on what seems to a less contested point; that children shouldbn’t be emotionally abused.

    But how do you prove that it’s happening, and how do you get someone in charge to correctly label them?

    The only thing I can think is a complaint board appointed by the Governor confirmed by the state Senate that can tell a school to drop or not do an event.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  69. 40. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/6/2021 @ 9:57 am

    We’d probably close the gaps in attainment by race just with a strong focus on poverty over all.

    It’s not really poverty, and it is even less race per se, it’s how much the school system cares and it’s getting rid of students who bully and disrupt.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  70. Tawana Brawley is still silent. She even I think confessed privately but she’s kept under wraps. And they’re paying her judgement. She can;t disasspcoate herself from them

    From 2013:

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/08/05/209194252/15-years-later-tawana-brawley-has-paid-1-percent-of-penalty

    In 1998, Steven Pagones, who was the county prosecutor at the time, won a defamation suit against Sharpton, Brawley and Brawley’s attorneys. They had accused Pagones of being among Brawley’s attackers.

    “Sharpton has since paid off his [$65,000] debt with money raised by his supporters,” the Village Voice says. Brawley was ordered to pay $190,000. In 2013 she was working as a nurse under anew name.

    It’s been 15 years. With interest, the judgment against the now 40-year-old Brawley has grown to more than $430,000. Finally, the Poughkeepsie Journal reports, Pagones is receiving some of the money: $3,700, or about 1 percent of what he’s now owed.

    Sharpton’s judgement is also being paid by other people, and he keeps himself pretty much judgement proof.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  71. Time123,

    Considering the NEA is the largest teacher’s union and is pushing this garbage, I don’t see how you can equate it to tide pods or even sharia.

    NJRob (7588eb)

  72. In 2013, she was paying $627 a month. They might have gotten her a job at maybe $5,000 a month or more – probably paid her tuition.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  73. In 2007 she was working in a nursing home in Virginia, and the name listed on her nursing license as an LPN was Tawana Thompson. In 2013 her wages were being garnished. (her mother had been or was anurse too)

    It’s about eight years since there were follow-up stories.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/booming/revisiting-the-tawana-brawley-rape-scandal.html

    I don’t know when she’ll be able to tell the truth about the whole incident. (it’s way beyond the statute of limitations for any criminal charges or new lawsuits)

    There is still an active cover-up going on. Although Sharpton doesn’t try to claim they were right.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  74. They actually reduce opportunities for blacks. They used to have “gifted and talented ” programs in many local schools. Now it wasn’t really “gifted and talented” but better prepared.

    They complained that not enough blacks were getting in. So now there are no blacks in such programs and the percentage of blacks passing the admissions tests for the specialized test high schools have gone way down.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  75. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/6/2021 @ 2:58 pm

    Every time this comes up you bring up disparities in outcome. I’d rather stay on that than get into the weeds with an offhand comment I made.

    Given that there are disparities in outcome what exactly do you think is the primary mechanism driving those disparities? Do you have any suggestions for influencing this mechanism to produce the outcome you want?

    frosty (f27e97)

  76. Im still not sure exactly what everyone who uses the term means, but I’m really skeptical they mean what you mean.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  77. AP calls NYC Dem Primary for Eric Adams.

    Dinkins Redux.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  78. #66: Sharpton loves conflict, and has profited mightily from it. (And has even, eventually, paid taxes on some of those profits.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  79. Frosty, just saw your comment. I think the fact the disparities are present from as long as we’ve had data supports the idea that they were at least initially caused by overt oppression. They’ve been improving over time, which is important to note. Given that they appear to have been initially caused by overt oppression I don’t know where I’d draw the line and say “oppression stopped being a factor here.” So I think that remain one factor among many.

    I don’t have a full solution. But I know that denying the existence of a problem makes it hard to fix.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  80. Considering the NEA is the largest teacher’s union and is pushing this garbage, I don’t see how you can equate it to tide pods or even sharia.

    First they (the Left) claim CRT doesn’t exist… then they claim it’s only taught in law school… and now this… infecting the minds of K – 12. Shameful and disgusting.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  81. 78…more like Eugene Sawyer, perhaps David Paterson if they’re lucky. Had Paterson run for Gracie Mansion himself, it would have made for soap opera drama in the general.

    urbanleftbehind (16cfcd)

  82. @79. The Rev likes to rev on hizself; Sharpton loves Sharpton. Ask Bernie Goetz. He likes to make the young believe he marched w/MLK, too.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  83. @82. Patterson would make for funnier SNL skits.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  84. Addition to 80, I’m very open to specific policies being bad for any number of reasons. What I don’t find very compelling is the story that there’s no issue to address or that we’ve done everything we can or should.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  85. I think one thing we can do is that instead of teaching the underprivileged kids CRT, we teach them that a job is neither an abstract concept nor an oppressive plot to keep them from spending time with their family and friends.

    nk (1d9030)

  86. 80. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/6/2021 @ 5:31 pm

    I think the fact the disparities are present from as long as we’ve had data supports the idea that they were at least initially caused by overt oppression.

    IOf course they were. And not just slavery. And this got better and things got worse. And the strongest effects were in the generation to whom it happened to, and the biggest effects is to cause people to live poorer for a period of time.

    n I don’t know where I’d draw the line and say “oppression stopped being a factor here.”

    New oppression, as opposed to the indirect results of previous oppression, and its consequences, has to be regarded as having almost completely stopped in 1965.

    I don’t have a full solution. But I know that denying the existence of a problem makes it hard to fix.

    There’s the problem of high level of black crime, which people are in denial about, and yes therefore they don’t do anything about or do counterproductive things like ending stop and frisk or bail reform.

    Now that is the result of segregation (which allowed cities to tolerate it) and underpolicing.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  87. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/6/2021 @ 5:20 pm

    Dinkins Redux.

    A little bit better than Dinkins – my concern is that he won;t resist the anti crime-fighting people enough.

    And even Dinkins started to do something about it in 1991. Although the thing that started the decline in crime in New York City was HIV. (drug addicts got sick, thus enabling police and prosecutors to begin to catch up creating an ever more virtuous cycle.)

    Now Governor Cuomo is a big crime fighter or at least gun fighter – except he’s not pointing to the real problem

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  88. The Freakonomics people say what started the decline in crime was Roe v Wade and abortion but I think it was AIDS. And it is a sad commentary that it took that to start the murder rate going down.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  89. Kevin, We’d probably close the gaps in attainment by race just with a strong focus on poverty over all.

    Putting schools directly in the hands of parents, through vouchers and choice, with the schools able to select and reject, and we’d have most of the attainment battle won.

    White folks have been promising black folks good schools since 1866, and have yet to measure up.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  90. On outcome.
    If you take on the legal argument of CRT, its another argument that seems to me to be impossible to prove or disprove (within their rules anyway).
    For example: Laws that are written to be race neutral are not because laws can and will be applied in discriminatory ways with race, class and gender coming together in a white male created toxic stew. The answer to why if perhaps black transgender females are disproportionally incarcerated, that answer would always be due to the supremacy, patriarchy within the white system of justice.
    “I am who I think you think I am” and am a prisoner in your system that has been put onto me because of that.
    It is a more intellectualized version of “the white man is keeping me down” but now its got the pernicious “whether he knows it or is trying to do it or not” added on.

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  91. Can you elaborate on this? What sort of focus? Would this only be a focus on poor black peoples? If this is a focus independent of race it’s likely the gap wouldn’t really change if “all boats rose”.

    LAUSD offers the same mediocrity to all. There is a geographic alignment (immigrants/Hispanics; Black/Hispanics) and more integrated areas that end up being black or immigrant because nearly all white and Asian kids are in private schools.

    I don’t know if LAUSD is unique, but the fact that the “minority” kids are largely in public schools and the more affluent are not is probably a great deal of the different outcomes. This is a form of hereditary advantage, on top of the parent-education advantage that was exacerbated when the public schools became so bad.

    Note: I went to public schools and did just fine. Things have changed.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  92. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/6/2021 @ 5:31 pm

    I feel like you’re avoiding my question. Do you think oppression is the primary mechanism driving current disparities in outcome? Are there any other mechanisms? I’m not looking for a full solution. Do you have any suggestions? I’d be interested in any method you can suggest of achieving the comparable outcomes you’re looking for.

    @85; yes, I picked up on this. This is nowhere in my question.

    frosty (f27e97)

  93. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/6/2021 @ 6:46 pm

    White folks have been promising black folks good schools since 1866, and have yet to measure up.

    White folks have been making this same promise to other white folks too and also failing to deliver. You’re best bet, no matter your race, is to move to a decent district. Going private isn’t a sure bet.

    frosty (f27e97)

  94. White folks have been promising black folks good schools since 1866, and have yet to measure up.

    Something isn’t measuring up.

    Guess.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  95. A Trumpist to the end.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  96. So, the saner candidate, Adams, wins the NYC mayoral primary 50.5 to 49.5 after 8 rounds of ranked-choice elimination. He had led 30-20 after the first round.

    The progressives lost bigly. I wonder if they will do what Trump voters do, and vote for the other party or stay home.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  97. Kevin M,

    Pretty sure the never-trump voters did that too.

    NJRob (259e99)

  98. OT: what’s missing from news accounts marking the five year anniversary of a BLM protest that left five dallas officers dead?

    any mention of BLM

    JF (e1156d)

  99. Frosty, I wasn’t trying to be evasive. I’ll try again; I think the impacts of intentional discrimination are a major source of disparity even after the laws which mandated discrimination have been removed.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  100. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/7/2021 @ 4:47 am

    Are there any other mechanisms? I’m not looking for a full solution. Do you have any suggestions? I’d be interested in any method you can suggest of achieving the comparable outcomes you’re looking for.

    frosty (f27e97)

  101. Other causes for the disparity? Sure; culture is a big one. As is the hollowing out the manufacturing sector that eliminated middle class jobs that a high school graduate could do. Add in the deterioration of many urban cores and everything that goes along with it. I’d also add in the regional shift in economic opportunity. Final point would be public sector corruption (See former mayor of Detroit as an example)

    Solutions are much harder, but it boils down to additional effective investment in these areas.

    Time123 (9f42ee)


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