Patterico's Pontifications

6/22/2021

Have Both Major Political Parties Failed the Black Community?

Filed under: General — Dana @ 9:59 am



[guest post by Dana]

The writer of this really interesting essay thinks so. I’m just going to leave it here without comment because I don’t have anything to add:

Through CRT, we’re already seeing the next generation of children being indoctrinated, though not through sensible reform or progressive policy. Lesson plans have been emerging which teach our children to see themselves through their skin tones and indoctrinating them to view history as well as American jurisprudence not as it is or was, but from a perspective that is centered strictly around their race.

But it’s not just Democrats. The GOP are also complicit, because even though they don’t support CRT, they are going about rejecting it in the wrong way, as they do with anything regarding race. Instead of making a clear case for why they are not racists, explaining how the smears are false, they seem to just ignore them, or hurl their own insults back.

What this means is that Black Americans have no party that represents them.

It’s true that Black Americans vote overwhelming for Democrats, over 90 percent for almost sixty years in every national election. But what do we have to show for it? Not only have we not seen the kind of economic policy that would truly help our community, but there’s an ideological mismatch, too: Many Black Americans have conservative ideals. We believe in hard work, family, Christian values, and self-reliance.

The primary reason for the overwhelming support that Black Americans give the Democratic Party is that many Black Americans believe that the GOP is the party of racists. And we believe that because people with a vested interest in our votes have made it their mission to make sure we do.

Race has always been the crown jewel used by Democrats to galvanize Black support. The Democrats constantly and consistently remind Black Americans that race is a barrier to their progress, and that they are the answer to this problem.

But the GOP never takes the time to defend itself from these attacks. Republicans don’t spend the time in our communities to show why they are the better political party to support. Therefore, the cycle of empty Democratic support continues, and Black Americans suffer.

Critical race theory is the latest iteration of this vicious cycle. Worse, it adds in an element of divisiveness that sets our kids up for failure. Black children will learn to resent white children based on history viewed through a racial lens, and white children will learn to dislike who they are or be resentful of being told their skin color makes them inherently tyrannical.

Delivering the final blow:

Both parties have failed Black Americans.

It’s time for Black Americans to realize that their skin color is not a barrier to their progress. More importantly, they must begin to force both the Democrats as well as Republicans to earn their support.

Read the whole thing. Video at the link.

–Dana

158 Responses to “Have Both Major Political Parties Failed the Black Community?”

  1. Good morning.

    Dana (fd537d)

  2. Let’s tell the truth here: when it comes to the problems of the black community, the only thing that matters is whom we can blame for them!

    No one is actually interested in fixing anything.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (78a597)

  3. But one thing seems certain to me: any fixes for the community’s problems have to come from within the community. Problems cannot be fixed from outside, solutions cannot be imposed externally.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (78a597)

  4. Mr. Martin is a Democrat saying this.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  5. The problem with CRT is that it believes racism is present in every aspect of life, every relationship, and every interaction and therefore has its advocates constantly look for it everywhere. As a consequence, activists then find racism in “white” ways of thinking….i.e. using science and reason….and are then compelled to advocate for alternative “black” ways of learning….say through story-telling or lived experiences. Of course, this is nonsense and throws out the baby with the bath water….but disagreement is just more evidence of racism….even if the disagreer is not white!

    The questions become how does this nonsense persist and politically what can be done about it? The perception is that Democrats will root out structural and systemic racism in our economy and our society, and reform our criminal justice system from top to bottom. Even if the evidence of this is lacking….look at most big cities….Democrats win the “feelz” competition….and Trump’s rhetoric didn’t/doesn’t help. The GOP needs to re-establish credibility….reason 68 why the GOP needs a non-Trump horse to ride. The story needs to be told of all of the black economic success of the past few decades…..and why the biggest obstacles are obstacles common to all. But our political environment needs to de-toxify, so we can talk to each other, rather than shouting at each other….

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  6. Have Both Major Political Parties Failed?

    FIFY

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  7. Given that Republicans have conceded big city politics to Democrats, minority groups have really no choices:

    ……
    ……In off-year elections from …… California to New York City and New Jersey and the increasingly blue state of Virginia with its crucial suburbs of Washington, D.C., the Republican Party’s feeble appeal to the country’s big cities and dense suburbs is on vivid display.

    Where the G.O.P. once consistently mounted robust campaigns in many of these areas, the party is now all but locked out of all the major contests of 2021.
    ……
    …..[The Republican] party’s growing irrelevance in urban and suburban areas also comes at a considerable cost, denying conservatives influence over the policies that govern much of the population and sidelining them in some of the country’s centers of innovation and economic might. The trend has helped turn formerly red states, like Georgia and Arizona, into purple battlegrounds as their largest cities and suburbs have grown larger and more ethnically mixed.
    …….
    It is difficult to overstate the extent of the Republican Party’s political decline in big-metro America. …..[T]he pre-Trump G.O.P. made a point of recruiting serious candidates even in Democratic strongholds like New York City and California. The party pulled off upset victories with some frequency by attacking Democrats on seemingly intractable problems like violent crime, high taxes and wasteful spending.

    And Republicans were rewarded with a crop of leaders who helped persuade not just their constituents but the country as a whole that their party was capable of mastering the toughest jobs in government. At the turn of the 21st century, Republican mayors governed cities like New York, Los Angeles and San Diego, and a motorist could drive from Pittsburgh to Provincetown, Mass., without entering a state helmed by a Democratic governor.
    ……..
    Yet in the country’s largest city, once ruled by the back-to-back Republican administrations of Rudolph W. Giuliani and Michael R. Bloomberg, the G.O.P. is on track to field a marginal candidate for mayor, most likely the media personality Curtis Sliwa. ……
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  8. Given that Republicans have conceded big city politics to Democrats, minority groups have really no choices

    You say chicken, I say egg.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. Instead of making a clear case for why they are not racists,

    A perfect bellwether as to whether or not the article is pure garbage. It is never incumbent on the slime merchants to make a “clear case” why someone else is a racist.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  10. The implication of this essay is that Republicans are absolutely not racist and that their policies are really in favor of black welfare and political power and that 90% or so have simply been so stupid as to not see this because misled by media and opinion leaders and cynical politicians.

    That is I suppose one explanation.

    Another explanation is that most looked at Republican policies and rhetoric over the last years, and particularly recent years, and concluded that Republicans are interested in reducing the power of the black vote (consider the impact and, in some cases, actual expressed intent of recent Republican attempts at “voter integrity”) and not particularly interested in black economic welfare or the ongoing systematic racial economic inequalities. And voted accordingly.

    I understand why most conservatives would prefer the former. It means all they have to do is change their messaging and double down on their bitter sense of grievance as opposed to actually changing any policies.

    Victor (9ebafe)

  11. The political system including the governing rules have failed the black community. 18% of the population control 52 senate seats. Gerrymandering is designed to negate the voting power of minorities by putting black voters into a small number of 90% minority districts. Cities where black community has some power are controlled by their state which negates their power. As for the democrat party it is controlled by the corporate establishment to negate the power of the left base and black community. You could ask fred hampton and mark clark about CRT except the police shot and killed them enforcing white critical race theory. As for the republican party they just want to keep the black community from interfering with their power.

    asset (7edcf9)

  12. Have Both Major Political Parties Failed the Black Community?

    Why be ‘skittlish’ with the ‘racist’ label ‘failing’?!?!

    Both Major Political Parties Failed.

    Period.

    “Taste the rainbow!” – Skittles Candies, DMB&B Advertising

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  13. Instead of making a clear case for why they are not racists, explaining how the smears are false, they seem to just ignore them, or hurl their own insults back.

    This isn’t a thing. At this point, it’s obvious this is smears and political games. As mentioned in @9, when you start with “prove you aren’t” you are implicitly starting with “R’s are largely white and white people are largely racists”, i.e. people saying this are racists.

    This

    Republicans don’t spend the time in our communities to show why they are the better political party to support.

    is a much better criticism.

    frosty (f27e97)

  14. @7. Given that Republicans have conceded big city politics to Democrats, minority groups have really no choices

    OTOH you might want to check the popularity numbers of a certain GOP big city mayor named Rudolph William Louis Giuliani on September 10, 2001.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  15. OTOH you might want to check the popularity numbers of a certain GOP big city mayor named Rudolph William Louis Giuliani on September 10, 2001.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 6/22/2021 @ 1:33 pm

    Two decades is a lifetime in politics, and RWLG did his part to sour the Republican brand.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  16. Mr Duh wrote:

    Instead of making a clear case for why they are not racists,

    A perfect bellwether as to whether or not the article is pure garbage. It is never incumbent on the slime merchants to make a “clear case” why someone else is a racist.

    You can never make a clear case that you are not racist, because the concept of Kafkatrapping holds that defending yourself against an accusation is considered evidence that the accusation is true.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (78a597)

  17. An asset to this comment section wrote:

    Gerrymandering is designed to negate the voting power of minorities by putting black voters into a small number of 90% minority districts

    LOL! I remember when the Commonwealth of Virginia received an additional congressional seat following the 1990 census. It was determined that that seat would be majority-minority, as was encouraged by federal law. So, in time for the 1992 elections, the Third District was created, running up the James River from Newport News to Richmond, to insure that then State Senator Bobby Scott, a black Democrat, would win it.

    Of course, there were ‘unforeseen consequences.’ Representative Herb Bateman (R-1st District), who had barely squeaked through in 1990, won handily in 1992, against the same opponent, because so many Democratic voters had been taken from the 1st district and put in the 3rd.

    In 2008, John McCain received zero votes in 57 separate precincts in foul, fetid, fuming, foggy, filthy Philadelphia; in 2012, Mitt Romney received zero votes in 59 precincts. When Democratic voters are so heavily concentrated by their own housing choices, they have effectively gerrymandered themselves.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (78a597)

  18. Democrats may be influenced by the corporate establishment but then again they’re the only ones pushing to raise corporate taxes. And my representative, Jayapal, is introducing a bill to break up Amazon.

    Victor (9ebafe)

  19. Victor (9ebafe) — 6/22/2021 @ 2:23 pm

    And you have some reason to think that will help the black community?

    frosty (f27e97)

  20. Just write a check to BLM.

    And it better have a lot of zeros.

    Racists!

    nk (1d9030)

  21. In general, Republican leaders have worked to help the black community.

    Where they have been able to, they have reformed education, notably in Texas and Florida. I just read a report (at Joanne Jacob’s site) that Mississippi (!!) has been doing much better in teaching reading, thanks to reforms there. Those who want details on the overall picture should look at some of the numbers from the National Assessment of Educational Progress. You can compare, for instance, Texas and California.

    Republican leaders have also worked to control crime, which has the most devastating effect on black communities. It is often said — dubiously — that poverty causes crime; it is absolutely certain that crime causes poverty, directly and indirectly.

    And, though they have had less success with this because they have been swimming against powerful cultural currents, they have tried to strengthen families.

    Republicans, especially George W. Bush, have pursued policies that helps blacks in Africa, too. Bush’s PEPFAR is credited with saving more 18 million lives, most of them poor African blacks.

    The Bush administration was able to negotiate the peaceful secession of South Sudan, helping to reduce the slave raiding from the north, so vividly described by Francis Bok. (The Obama administration neglected the new nation, though it is hard to think of a nation more in need of our help.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  22. @25. Check his numbers on 9/10/01.

    NYers had had enuf of his GOPeeing on them by then.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  23. Break up Amazon! Heh! That will sit well with The Washington Post.

    Why not AT&T, again? That will sit well with CNN.

    nk (1d9030)

  24. Here’s a link to the Joanne Jacobs post I mentioned.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  25. Putin’s poodles may not believe me, so here is a summary article from the BBC on Bush’s African successes.

    (Incidentally, these are American successes, too. It took some fine diplomacy to set up the PEPFAR programs in all those African countries, and our diplomats deserve a lot of credit for their work.)

    That our “mainstream” journalists are unwilling to even mention PEPFAR these days is another example, in my opinion, of the most common kind of bias, selection bias. Similarly, our “mainstream” journalists have little to say about the genocide that occurred in Iraq and Syria, as a result of Obama’s premature withdrawal.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  26. Trump reached out and picked up votes

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  27. W/majority, President Plagiarist loses Senate vote on voting rights; Ice Cream Queen announces House Select Committee to investigate January 6.

    Royalists gotta royal.

    Nancy: WHO shot Ashli Babbitt, dear?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  28. No one is teaching CRT to the children. People who pretend we are shouldn’t be taken seriously.

    Nic (896fdf)

  29. Eighty years ago today.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  30. The problem is that GOP leaders who actually try to help the black community (e.g. Jack Kemp) are loudly called “RINOs” by the knuckle-draggers who now infest the GOP.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  31. The funny thing is that all the factors that led Trump to take over the GOP (outsourcing, immigration, Chinese manufacturing) hit the black folk just as hard as the white folk. Trump was unable to capitalize on that, mainly because he was a repulsive lout, but someone else with half a brain could find common ground there.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  32. nic – Here is what mathematicians call an existence proof.

    How widespread is critical race theory in our schools? It’s hard to say, without a comprehensive study. Nonetheless, Google — which is not a conservative company — will turn up multiple examples for you, with a simple search. (And I don’t doubt that many Googlers (Googlies?) are unhappy about that fact.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  33. Nic (896fdf) — 6/22/2021 @ 3:52 pm

    And if they were it’s not on them anyway. Teachers are just following orders. It’s on those derelict parents and their poor management of the school boards.

    frosty (f27e97)

  34. No one is teaching CRT to the children. People who pretend we are shouldn’t be taken seriously.

    Nic (896fdf) — 6/22/2021 @ 3:52 pm

    It is impossible to say with any certainty that *no one* is teaching CRT to children. I say this because from what I’ve read, it seems that the definition of CRT varies, depending on whom one is reading or listening to. Few seem to be able to agree upon an official definition.

    Dana (fd537d)

  35. @Jim@32 A lesson on Angela Davis isn’t CRT (she wouldn’t be my choice of figures to cover, but it isn’t CRT). Here’s the lesson the article talks about, it also isn’t CRT. Shipley school is a private school, the parents pay to send their kids. Democracy Prep is a charter school. Grace Church HS is a private school, the parents pay to send their kids. It is not hard to say how widespread critical race theory is in public schools. It is basically non-existent. Public school curriculum is public and voted on by the local school board. If it does exist in your local school district (it doesn’t) it was publicly voted on by your local school board, elected by you, the people who live in your local school district.

    Nic (896fdf)

  36. @frosty@33 School boards do vote on the curriculum, it’s part of their job. And parents do vote for the school board, it’s part of their responsibilities as citizens.

    Nic (896fdf)

  37. Also, parents review proposed curriculum as a committee and make their recommendations to the school board.

    Dana (fd537d)

  38. @Dana@34 There is, it’s just that it’s graduate level social/legal theory.

    Nic (896fdf)

  39. Again, Nic, I don’t know that your statement is accurate given the varied definitions and the vast number of districts/public schools in the nation. If you’ve done the actual research as opposed to just guessing that it’s so, then I wouldn’t have a problem with your claim.

    Dana (fd537d)

  40. @Dana@39 I did look into it a little.

    Critical race theory (CRT) was officially organized in 1989, at the first annual Workshop on Critical Race Theory, though its intellectual origins go back much farther, to the 1960s and ’70s. Its immediate precursor was the critical legal studies (CLS) movement, which dedicated itself to examining how the law and legal institutions serve the interests of the wealthy and powerful at the expense of the poor and marginalized.

    A legal theorist named Richard Delgado also seems to have written a book about it in 2001: Critical Race Theory: An Introduction. After that it seems to have wandered of into social science academia as well.

    There appear to be general ideas in it that don’t seem terrible, but various people involved in it seem to have wandered off into the extreme weeds from time to time.

    Nic (896fdf)

  41. Curriculum is mostly set at the state level. See here and here for the most influential states.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  42. Nic – Well, we are making progress. Here’s an example of a
    public school in the Seattle area that is teaching CRT.

    (Given the influence of leftists in Seattle, I would expect it to be more common there than in most suburbs.)

    Again, a simple search will find you more examples (along with denials).

    So do we agree that CRT is taught in some schools?

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  43. “Here’s an example of a public school in the Seattle area that is teaching CRT.”

    Teaching to who, Jim?

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  44. Davethulhu – I’m not sure I understand your question. Here’s a link to an out of date Wikipedia article listing schools in the district.

    You can find more up to date info, I imagine, by looking at the district’s own web site.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  45. . The GOP are also complicit, because even though they don’t support CRT, they are going about rejecting it in the wrong way, as they do with anything regarding race. Instead of making a clear case for why they are not racists, explaining how the smears are false, they seem to just ignore them, or hurl their own insults back.

    That’s how they act with regard to just about anything false. Except they frequently attempt rebuttals, but false or very oversimplified ones.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  46. From the same school that is mentioned in Jim’s 6:06 post:

    WHAT’S THE BUZZ ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY?
    MORE HEADLINES

    JUN 3 2021

    “Critical Race Theory” has become a hot topic for some media outlets, and some school districts–including Highline–are getting the question, “Do you teach Critical Race Theory in school?”

    Much of the buzz is based on misunderstandings and mischaracterizations of Critical Race Theory. So what is it?

    A very simplified definition is that it is a way of understanding how inequities continue to persist in our world in spite of advances in civil rights. It asks us to look at systemic inequities in institutions such as education and the legal system. It is not a condemnation of our nation or a vehicle for shaming and blaming white people.

    For more on Critical Race Theory, you may want to read this recent article in Education Week.

    We will continue to provide more context around this issue as we implement Highline’s Instruction on Race and Identity.

    https://staff.highlineschools.org/departments/communications/insider-news/news-details/~board/district-news/post/whats-the-buzz-about-critical-race-theory

    Not only do they not deny that they are teaching CRT, they explain that CRT is misunderstood by many. (See their includes link)

    Nic, do you have a misunderstanding of CRT? You were very adamant that it is not getting taught. This school system says it ain’t so bad.

    BuDuh (6b4453)

  47. “Davethulhu – I’m not sure I understand your question. ”

    From your article:

    In the 2023-24 school year, public school staff must receive annual training on cultural competency, equity, diversity, and inclusion. Its goal is to dismantle institutional racism “by examining school district policies with an equity lens.”

    It’s a training program for school staff. It’s not being taught to students.

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  48. Dave probably noticed that your link said that only teachers were being taught CRT. You were supposed to fall into a trap, Jim, where you would get dunked on because obviously whatever the teachers are taught, they won’t pass on to their students. Har-de-har-har…

    BuDuh (6b4453)

  49. Tada!

    BuDuh (6b4453)

  50. “You were supposed to fall into a trap, Jim, where you would get dunked on because obviously whatever the teachers are taught, they won’t pass on to their students.”

    This is an incredibly dishonest argument, but not unexpected for you. Jim posted a link about “public schools teaching CRT”. It has to be repeated, over and over again, Rip Murdock shouting into the void:

    “Curriculum is mostly set at the state level.”

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  51. Or… you could have done a little research and found the link I found, Dave.

    BuDuh (6b4453)

  52. @Jim@42 The bills in the linked article:
    ESSB 5044

    E2SSB 5227

    SSB5228

    And here’s clips of the Highland training your link was scandalized by.

    None of these are CRT. None of them are for public school students. None of them involve the commonly referenced ridiculousness of “the school is telling my boy that everything is his fault and he’s evil because he’s white”. The first two are bog standard requirements for diversity training for staff. The second is for college staff even. The third is a requirement for medical school training regarding health outcomes for minorities. The fourth is also a diversity training for staff. (though I think their derivation for the word “cop” is wrong.”

    @46 BuDah See my answer to Dana above.

    Nic (896fdf)

  53. “Or… you could have done a little research and found the link I found, Dave.”

    Your link doesn’t say what you think it says.

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  54. Maybe you can eliminate some of the quotes so it matches what you want it to say.

    BuDuh (6b4453)

  55. “Maybe you can eliminate some of the quotes so it matches what you want it to say.”

    https://www.highlineschools.org/about/board-policies/policy-details/~board/board-policies/post/procedure-0010-p5-instruction-on-race-identity

    Point to the CRT.

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  56. @29. On this day in history in 1633: the Catholic Church forced Galileo Galilei to renounce his heliocentric world view.

    And how many centuries did it take for the crusading-rape-and-pillaging-pedophile-cult to apologize?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  57. But one thing seems certain to me: any fixes for the community’s problems have to come from within the community. Problems cannot be fixed from outside, solutions cannot be imposed externally.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (78a597) — 6/22/2021 @ 10:48 am

    The main problem is that all these talk-pieces and the people who are driving them treat the “black community” as some sort of monolith, just as they lump “Asian American Pacific Islander” into a single group, despite that part of the world being composed of numerous cultures and groups who, in some cases, hate each others’ guts. They do this because it’s easier to drive anti-white animus if you balkanize groups in the West according to broad racial categories and claim “systemic white supremacy” or “white privilege” is what is holding them back.

    Most of the premises being put forth by the CRT crowd are simply a replication of what Marxists such as Gramsci and Marcuse posited after communist revolutions failed to overthrow western European governments in the wake of World War I and World War II. These intellectuals largely abandoned the economic apocalypticism of Marx’s “class struggle” and determined that culture was actually the real battlefield, and only by subverting “hegemonic” systems, in this case one dominated by “white supremacy,” could the leftist utopia where everyone is well-off and elite come to pass.

    It’s not an accident that so many leftists in the 60s, particularly the white radicals of the SDS and Weather Underground, were influenced by Mao’s Cultural Revolution, passing those ideals on to subsequent generations in academia and, eventually, popular and corporate culture. They’ve basically implemented the “struggle session” as a standard abasement ritual in corporate and government employee training modules–indeed, the whole concept of “restorative justice” is just a post-modern version of this–and we even see this in the ridiculous apologies by celebrities like Ellie Kemper and Billie Eilish for supposed past racist sins.

    Conservatives, like a lot of culture war conflicts in the last 50 years, and especially in the last 30, basically abandoned the battlefield by claiming, “Oh, don’t worry, the real world will straighten them out, it’s just a particularly abrasive minority causing these issues!” Rather than offer up a robust defense of American civic nationalism and make the left fight for every inch of ground, they retreated mostly into an economic agenda of tax cuts, spending profligacy, and never-ending wars that the left already realized was a losing battle. That so many neocons were former Trotskyists should have been a huge alarm bell against allowing them to influence conservative policy for so many decades.

    The last thing the left wants conservatives to do is become more politically active, *especially* at the local level, because this is the where the main battles of the culture war are actually fought. A more politically engaged conservative polity is far more likely to resist the left’s desire to steamroll its agenda as the cultural and civic consensus. That’s why there’s been so much hand-wringing and deflection in recent weeks over their attempts to resist the circular reasoning of CRT and its proponents.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  58. I already linked what they had to say about CRT. In that link, they define what they believe CRT is. They include links to an article that helps the reader understand CRT. They also include a link to the school’s “Instruction on Race and Equity.” If you go to that link you find the template they are using. If you go to the source of that template you find language that matches the school’s and their linked article’s definition of CRT.

    It is an end round that is very, very simple to connect the dots together.

    Or, we can rabbit trail on your “SHOW ME THE EXACT WORDING!” malarkey.

    Waste your own time. I’ll stick with simple and obvious.

    BuDuh (6b4453)

  59. @52 it’s the usual shell game

    no we don’t teach crt in schools

    c’mon people, we would never

    but if you try to codify that into law they’ll have none of it, cuz reasons

    https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/what-is-critical-race-theory-north-texas-professors-explain-highly-debated-topic/287-f61d01ca-fd84-4e86-9f36-2cb2bca5ebc9

    JF (6c1761)

  60. Nic – You may want to try a little harder to avoid the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.

    Davethulhu – As someone who comes from a family of teachers — and who has been to a training session or two myself — it did not occur to me that anyone would believe that, in public schools, training sessions were not intended to change what was taught, and/or how it was taught. It is a novel idea.

    If we accept it, then we should conclude that these sessions are a complete waste, and the district should consider suing the presenters for a return of their fees, and, possibly, damages.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  61. 19 Frosty – I was responding to the claim that Democrats are captures by their corporate masters. I was attempting to show that Democrats may be influenced by corporations but, compared to Republicans are not captured. Compare whose policies would actually have a negative effect on very rich people.

    In other news of Republican branding on the issue of democracy, a bill to make it easier for everybody to vote and promulgate democratic values received exactly no votes by Republicans when it was proposed to be introduced for debate in the Senate. And thus the World’s Greatest Deliberative Body will not deliberate. And the filibuster which, according to Sinema/Collins is for the purpose of ensuring reasoned moderate compromise will ensure that the bill is not debated or compromised.

    Yay for US.

    Victor (9ebafe)

  62. Trump was unable to capitalize on that, mainly because he was a repulsive lout, but someone else with half a brain could find common ground there.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/22/2021 @ 4:17 pm

    Except Trump increased his voting percentage among black and Hispanic voters from 2016. What killed him in 2020 was the loss of whites with college degrees–people who are particularly desperate to show how Not Racist they are so they don’t lose their social status.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  63. “Or, we can rabbit trail on your “SHOW ME THE EXACT WORDING!” malarkey.

    Waste your own time. I’ll stick with simple and obvious.”

    You are making the claim. It’s incumbent on you to prove it.

    Related: the policy details page has an implementation date of 2023. So whatever argument you’re making, they’re not currently teaching it.

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  64. LOL

    BuDuh (6b4453)

  65. BuDuh (6b4453) — 6/22/2021 @ 7:20 pm

    Or, we can rabbit trail on your “SHOW ME THE EXACT WORDING!” malarkey.

    You wouldn’t find “the exact wording” because no true scotsman or something. Whatever gets found won’t be CRT. This is why CRT isn’t really defined or has multiple definitions.

    It’s weird though. No one needs to be able to point out any of the specific racism that keeps getting asserted against these nefarious R’s.

    frosty (f27e97)

  66. “LOL”

    Yeah, that’s what I figured.

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  67. “This is why CRT isn’t really defined or has multiple definitions.”

    There’s 0% chance that you or BuDuh agree with the school district’s definition of CRT.

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  68. How does any person “prove” that he or she is not a racist?

    John B Boddie (edb089)

  69. Dave’s version:

    Related: the policy details page has an implementation date of 2023. So whatever argument you’re making, they’re not currently teaching it.

    From the school’s link:

    Develop a phase-in implementation plan for teaching this content that uses a phase-in structure, with all schools at full implementation by fall 2023.

    Full implementation by 2023, Dave.

    I knew you rewrite a quote. I had faith.

    BuDuh (6b4453)

  70. “Full implementation by 2023, Dave.”

    How much has been implemented so far?

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  71. In other news of Republican branding on the issue of democracy, a bill to make it easier for everybody to vote and promulgate democratic values received exactly no votes by Republicans when it was proposed to be introduced for debate in the Senate.

    If you want to get past the filibuster (and this goes for both parties regardless of who’s in the majority), learn how to compromise and create legislation that will get more people on board. Appeals to “democracy” are largely insincere, as the idea that 50+1 have the right to steamroll their agenda, and never take what the minority consider into account when crafting laws, is ultimately anti-democratic.

    A government is reflective of the people who vote for them, and if Congress is comprised of people who act like stubborn, emotionally stunted schoolchildren who can’t talk to each other and figure out a real consensus (not the disingenuous “divisive” pejorative slung about whenever the left encounters actual resistance to its agenda), then that’s because we have a childish, stubborn, emotionally stunted electorate who thought “All I Needed to Know I Learned in Kindergarten” and stopped there.

    Before pundits like John Stewart established a false narrative that we can’t have political disagreements to have a stable, functional nation, it was actually possible to get legislation moving and filibusters and gridlock were relatively rare. That’s not the case anymore, and we can blame a lot of the media narrative framing over the last 20 years for that.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  72. How much has been implemented so far?

    Davethulhu (13b53b) — 6/22/2021 @ 7:41 pm

    It has to be exhausting moving those goalposts around.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  73. There you go again. You asserted that the policy page said it would be implemented in 2023. I provide the exact quote that shows you made things up. Now you have a different question.

    All kinds of rabbit trails with you. I will now disengage.

    BuDuh (6b4453)

  74. “Appeals to “democracy” are largely insincere, as the idea that 50+1 have the right to steamroll their agenda, and never take what the minority consider into account when crafting laws, is ultimately anti-democratic.”

    This is what the founders wanted. The filibuster exists nowhere in the constitution.

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  75. ” You asserted that the policy page said it would be implemented in 2023. ”

    No, I asserted that they’re not currently teaching it. To me “Develop a phase-in implementation plan” implies that the plan does not currently exist, and is therefore not being taught.

    “I will now disengage.”

    Please never engage with me again.

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  76. This is what the founders wanted. The filibuster exists nowhere in the constitution.

    Davethulhu (13b53b) — 6/22/2021 @ 7:48 pm

    Neither does democracy.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  77. Victor (9ebafe) — 6/22/2021 @ 7:23 pm

    I was responding to the claim that Democrats are captures by their corporate masters. I was attempting to show that Democrats may be influenced by corporations but, compared to Republicans are not captured.

    This would be a lot easier to do if that were true. 15 years ago corporate leaders were parroting stakeholder value and now we’re in the land of woke corporate capitalism.

    Democrats and corporations are joined at the hip. With a few exceptions corporate donations to D’s exceeds those to R’s.

    The tech monopolies are PR firms pushing D political agendas.

    Established companies love crony capitalism, oligarchy, and rent-seeking. D’s love that too.

    First, it was CHAZ is fine, then it was Biden is cogent and competent, and now D’s are going to crack down on these evil corporations.

    frosty (f27e97)

  78. Davethulhu (13b53b) — 6/22/2021 @ 7:37 pm

    There’s 0% chance that you or BuDuh agree with the school district’s definition of CRT.

    Reading minds now? Please tell me what my definition of CRT is.

    frosty (f27e97)

  79. @75 the filibuster is a parliamentary rule, not a law, unlike all the countless lefty crap you don’t care isn’t in the constitution

    JF (6c1761)

  80. “Reading minds now? Please tell me what my definition of CRT is.”

    Do you agree “that it is a way of understanding how inequities continue to persist in our world in spite of advances in civil rights. It asks us to look at systemic inequities in institutions such as education and the legal system. It is not a condemnation of our nation or a vehicle for shaming and blaming white people.”

    If so, then I apologize.

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  81. @JF@60 I’m not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that the regular diversity training we’ve all been getting for 30 years now is CRT?

    @Frosty@78 An interesting article that I planned to post to the weekend thread but forgot because I had a surprise trip out of town instead. Tech monopolies.

    Nic (896fdf)

  82. @82 no, i’m talking about a law prohibiting the teaching of stuff that we’re all told isn’t taught

    JF (6c1761)

  83. @83 Ah, Thanks for clarifying. IMO, it’s kind of a waste of time. All those places that prohibited sharia law just ended up looking silly.

    Nic (896fdf)

  84. This is the origin of the culture war:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_purge

    Gomer may have been bought by McDonald’s but he never charged Hamburger Hill.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  85. Davethulhu (13b53b) — 6/22/2021 @ 8:06 pm

    I’d agree with the part that is a definition. At least as a simplified definition. But

    It is not a condemnation of our nation or a vehicle for shaming and blaming white people.

    isn’t part of the definition. It’s an opinion of the definition. if someone made up a word that fit the description for an insult but then tacked on to the end, that it isn’t meant to be an insult, would it matter? When people fly the stars and bars but say it’s about southern history does it matter? When someone uses any of the growing list of offensive terms but says they didn’t mean offense does it matter?

    frosty (f27e97)

  86. Nic (896fdf) — 6/22/2021 @ 8:11 pm

    We’ll see if the bills go anywhere. One of the things I’ve noticed is that what’s said and what’s done aren’t the same thing. This isn’t limited to D’s. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard an R say something obviously thinking that his audience must have forgotten that the same promise had been made multiple times before.

    The establishment D’s are in lockstep with big tech. I don’t see that breaking. There is a distinct pattern that De and Re have developed to use the stalking horse and the catfish. Bernie and AOC play the dirty commie to appease the dirty commies. The R’s have been playing the social conservatives. The D’s play the race card and the R’s play along.

    My bet is the D/R’s will pretend to be tough on big tech and then blame the other side when they can’t.

    frosty (f27e97)

  87. @87 It certainly could end up going no where, but it’s still interesting that they have at least realized that maybe the citizenry at large has some concerns.

    Nic (896fdf)

  88. Davethulhu (13b53b) — 6/22/2021 @ 7:05 pm

    Point to the CRT.

    We’ll, they don’t post the content. They just describe it but

    This instruction is anti-racist in nature

    is what you’d be calling a dog-whistle in a different context.

    How much has been implemented so far?

    I don’t know but

    Adopted by the Board: November 2019

    implies more than 0. Maybe they changed their mind and never started implementing this.

    frosty (f27e97)

  89. Nic (896fdf) — 6/22/2021 @ 9:45 pm

    Sure. I don’t think they’re stupid. But they certainly think the voters are and so far their batting average is pretty good.

    frosty (f27e97)

  90. No one is teaching CRT to the children. People who pretend we are shouldn’t be taken seriously.

    If your kids are being taught CRT, congratulations. Since it’s only taught as a theory class in Law School or Sociology Grad school.

    Now, there are idiots, conmen, and charlatans trying to tell you your elementary school kids are being indoctrinated with CRT, but they’re just lying liars. If you believe them…lean things, going through life lazy and stupid isn’t helping anyone.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  91. Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 6/23/2021 @ 8:35 am

    Like the covid bats. Anyone telling you it wasn’t the covid bats that haven’t been found is a lying liar. We’ll find those bats any day now and all of those conspiracy nuts saying it might not have been the bats will look like fools.

    frosty (f27e97)

  92. Flip it on its head and ask if the Black Americans have failed themselves by walling themselves off from the GOP. Look at how the Black Caucus treats Black members of the GOP.
    There is no exchange of ideas and values allowed. When a member of the GOP approaches the Black community, a large proportion refuse to even allow the GOP to speak, and when thy do allow the GOP to come to them to speak, a large part of the group acts like little kids putting their fingers in thier ears and going “nah nah nah nah”. They also marginalize and ostracize those who do listen, who do absorb parts of the message.
    Why is it that Black groups are not asking Justice Thomas, Senator Scott, Condileeza Rice etc. to speak to their youth?

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  93. #92

    Bats, Pangolins etc were distractions.
    The market in Wuhan was probably a center of spread due to the packed nature of Asian markets, not from bush meat like the Ebola.

    I think the Chinese might have engineered COVID, I think it might have escaped the lab (with a slim chance of it being spread on purpose to guage spread and world reaction).
    If I was an anti-American virus breeder I’d be very pleased with the US response/panic to this.
    The whole country grinds to a halt over what amounted to a moderate flu

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  94. A commenter without any parents wrote:

    Except Trump increased his voting percentage among black and Hispanic voters from 2016. What killed him in 2020 was the loss of whites with college degrees–people who are particularly desperate to show how Not Racist they are so they don’t lose their social status.

    No, President Trump lost because the idiocy of sending out postage-paid mail-in ballots brought in votes, very heavily for Joe Biden, from millions of people who don’t ordinarily get off their asses to go to the polls and vote.

    We had much better government when the franchise was restricted to white male property owners.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (78a597)

  95. Suffragetariat. I claim credit for coining it. Compare to: Proletariat.

    nk (1d9030)

  96. I think ‘suffragette’ has already been taken.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (78a597)

  97. So had proles when proletariat was coined. My word is not suffragette, a woman advocating for giving women the vote; it’s suff-ra-ge-tariat, the voters whose only wealth is their vote.

    nk (1d9030)

  98. A commenter without any parents wrote:

    Well, my dad passed away in 2016 and my mom voted for Trump both times, so you can save your snark.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  99. None of us care anymore. The black community went to the same schools and school systems and failed to learn or achieve anything of note and turn to violence at the drop of a hat and they have created a system where they console themselves about their complete and utter failure by blaming whitey. I’m sick of it and so are the rest of the conservatives who keep getting told we’re the problem and we need to have a conversation about racism except we all know that this just means we get to sit around to be blamed for everything they’ve screwed up for generation after generation and if we open our mouths we’re mo debinitely racists.
    If you fail to learn to read and get shut out of any and all advancement except athletics that’s pretty much a personal problem and there is only one person to blame for that. I watch the corporations, government, bureaucracy and the military scramble to find actual qualified blacks to plug in so they can point to numbers as if those mattered and mutter about doing the equity BS but the % of the people with the skills for that is not 12% of Americans, it is less than 1% of 12% and getting worse.
    There’s a reason that American blacks are failures in society unlike the immigrants who came with nothing and now dominate small business ownership in the urban cores. That reason has nothing to do with racism or ‘slavery.’

    Curtis (86aa49)

  100. Meanwhile, a Socialist/Working Families candidate has won the mayor’s office in Buffalo. As if they didn’t have enough problems already. So, the minor parties are trying to fail Blacks, too.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  101. Factory Working NON-Orphan

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  102. Except Trump increased his voting percentage among black and Hispanic voters from 2016

    Someone who didn’t support white-power groups might have done better.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  103. I’m honestly not sure what CRT is. When I looked it up a while ago it seemed like an arcane theory that wasn’t very relevant to my life so I didn’t bother to understand it. Now I see the same crowd that told me Sharia law was taking over the US saying that CRT is going to take over. I’m sure that in a country as large as ours there are examples that excess, but every example I’ve looked into has been substantially over sold.

    I have school age kids. Most of my friends do as well. I have friends in red and blue states and none of them are talking about CRT or kids being shamed.

    At this point I think this is a moral panic in the GOP and a similar silly counter reaction by the woke left. I don’t think it’s serious, or wide ranging problem.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  104. Of course, there are also people like Curtis how are just strait up racist.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  105. Meanwhile, the Supremes ruled, 6-3 on party lines, that property rights are a thing again and farmers do not have to allow union organizers on their property.

    https://www.scotusblog.com/2021/06/court-holds-that-regulation-guaranteeing-union-access-to-employees-is-unconstitutional/

    And Lochner smiled.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  106. Time123 (9f42ee) — 6/23/2021 @ 12:50 pm

    My experience is inconsistent with yours.

    It’s true that no one is talking specifically about CRT because no one starts with an exhaustive epistemological review of the theoretical foundations of a topic. They skip right to the application.

    This is why it’s possible to describe what you’re doing and then right at the end tack on “but it’s not this controversial thing”. As long as you surround the controversial thing with smoke and mirrors everyone who wants to believe it’s ok has that option.

    The other beauty is that white people are able to fill in the blanks so no one has to explicitly say anything. If you say society is systemically rigged against people of color who are oppressed, well, people of color didn’t do that to themselves now did they? Who else is left to be doing this? Why else do white people need to prove they are allies? Allies against who?

    frosty (f27e97)

  107. I’m spitballing, but I don’t think teachers “teach” CRT in K-12 per se. If it shows up in some form, it would have to be in discussion exercises with regards to being open to cultural differences and attitudes. I’m skeptical that this is hard core indoctrination.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  108. There may be ideas derived from it.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  109. Democratic candidates, because people are not looking, are getting worse and worse, slowly, when unknown.

    Thus results in bad outcomes.

    Apparently there was a DSA (and anti-police) winner in the primary for mayor of Buffalo yesterday.

    They are not always so successful because it is not so easy to creep in under the radar. Nevertheless the new New York City Council, which was bad already, should be a little bit worse. Hard to get any details – 2 of 6 DSA candidates won. But it is more than DSA.

    About half of the minority reps in the City Council were not for defunding the police last year, ad they tried shifting money around into other categories.

    https://nypost.com/2021/02/27/ny-city-council-is-pushing-for-a-school-safety-disaster

    Some on the City Council aren’t satisfied with Mayor de Blasio’s vow to shift the school-security budget from the NYPD to the Department of Education: They want to pull the safety agents out of schools altogether.

    https://thechiefleader.com/news/open_articles/mayoral-candidates-weigh-in-to-school-safety-debate-free-article/article_062c3840-88f3-11eb-8d64-9b797ca793b5.html

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  110. AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 6/23/2021 @ 3:07 pm

    I’m skeptical that this is hard core indoctrination.

    What constitutes “hard core”? Is this a know it when I see it sort of thing? Is it only a problem if it’s hard? What about other variations?

    Should this really be the standard? Seems like once you’re at the hard core phase the battle is pretty much over.

    frosty (f27e97)

  111. Frosty

    I am curious how you could do a fairly accurate account of American history and not come to the conclusion that the “society is [or at least has been] systemically rigged against people of color who are oppressed”. Do you think that’s possible?

    As for what CRT panic is leading us to, consider Desantis who now wants to do a survey of the political opinions of students, staff and teachers at Florida colleges and universities. Why? Not clear though the implication is that colleges who don’t meet Desantis standards of political diversity will have their funding cut.

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/06/desantis-reveals-truth-about-critical-race-theory-hysteria.html

    And thus is the Republican Party once again a champion of freedom.

    Victor (9ebafe)

  112. Someone who didn’t support white-power groups might have done better.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/23/2021 @ 12:28 pm

    Doubtful, considering the last 45-plus years.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  113. I am curious how you could do a fairly accurate account of American history and not come to the conclusion that the “society is [or at least has been] systemically rigged against people of color who are oppressed”. Do you think that’s possible?

    How is it currently rigged? Who in power has rigged it? Did they specifically target all non-white people with this systemic oppression?

    I doubt the black gangbangers I went to high school with in the mid-90s, for example, were all that oppressed by anything other than their own lack of future-time orientation, considering there were plenty of other black students in the school who had little trouble being accepted to colleges and even getting scholarships. Most of those students notably came from two-parent households, but if they’re being accepted into institutions that have traditionally been bastions of the nation’s elite, the argument that the system was rigged against them is a rather specious one. Same with the families in the Hispanic neighborhood my dad grew up in–their problems were largely self-inflicted, although my aunt certainly loves blaming everything that went wrong in her life on white people. Doesn’t mean it’s true.

    As I mentioned earlier, most of the premises of critical social theory, of which the racial variety has been the most prominent, are couched in circular reasoning and a quasi-religious belief in the original sin of white hegemony that can only be resolved through the subversion and ultimately the destruction of Western culture.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  114. Frosty your comment at 112 is kind of what I’m talking about; what is that you object to? You turned the question around in asking what the standard is but the anti-CRT ppl seem to be militantly opposed to horrible things that are vague had hard to find concrete examples of.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  115. @115, Factory Working Orphan, pull up any reasonable measure of attainment; income, college graduation rates, home ownership, etc and show me which year you think black people had recovered from slavery, the reconstruction and Jim Crow.

    The answers to your rhetorical questions can easily be found in history books. Saying that elementary school students shouldn’t be brow beaten about the sins of their ancestors isn’t the same thing as saying those sins didn’t exist.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  116. Victor (9ebafe) — 6/23/2021 @ 5:02 pm

    Do you think that’s possible?

    When you say “society” and “historically” you’re painting with a broad brush but I suspect you mean it more narrowly. For example, to link Jim Crow to now we’d need to assume some interconnections across time and different groups of people that I don’t think are as strong as you might. Same with other situations with different groups and different times, i.e. the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII, importing Asians into the west as essentially slave labor, and the movement and abuse of the native Americans.

    Horrible things in the past don’t prove ongoing current systemic racism. The best evidence we have now for current systemic racism is questionable statistics.

    The other issue, after reviewing history, is that to establish that society is rigged now I’d need to be able to determine by who and why. Under CRT the answer is white people because they’re racist. Is there some other answer? Maybe white people because they’re greedy? Or because they have no souls (I think that’s the nation of islam answer). Is there an answer that isn’t some version of white people are evil?

    Claiming that white people now are rigging the system by pointing at the past is like accusing men now of oppressing women because women used to not have voting rights.

    frosty (f27e97)

  117. @115, Factory Working Orphan, pull up any reasonable measure of attainment; income, college graduation rates, home ownership, etc and show me which year you think black people had recovered from slavery, the reconstruction and Jim Crow.

    This is one of the question-begging premises–that if absolute equality of outcome hasn’t happened, the system is rigged.

    The answers to your rhetorical questions can easily be found in history books.

    Victor’s argument included the claim that the system is still rigged. That’s the been the premise of CRT for decades, and really started gaining ground after Peggy McIntosh published her essay on “white privilege”–which she notably confused with her own class privilege, having been born into the cream of America’s academic elite.

    Saying that elementary school students shouldn’t be brow beaten about the sins of their ancestors isn’t the same thing as saying those sins didn’t exist.

    Should adults be brow-beaten about the sins of their ancestors and made to abase themselves for it? The other question-begging premise is that the nation’s history of racism and slavery was never taught “until recently.” But that’s certainly not true, and even events such as the Sand Creek Massacre were controversial in their own time and decades afterward. On the other side of the coin, I notably didn’t learn about the violent history of the radical left in the 60s and 70s until quite recently. Talk about privilege.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  118. Frosty, I’m a pragmatist so I like to start with results. If we can agree that black did start out oppressed, can you identify where you feel they’d ‘caught up’ as a group? You’re going to struggle there, because by most measures they haven’t. we can do lots to stats to try and tease out how much and more stats to try and show that if you control for income and zip code of birth and how much lead was in the water and a bunch of other things skin color doesn’t matter. But while great improvements have happened, it’s still not close when we look at outcomes, and it never has been.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  119. Time123 (9f42ee) — 6/23/2021 @ 5:55 pm

    I don’t think it’s vague. I think it’s racism. What I think is smoke and mirrors is how it’s described by the people in favor of it.

    frosty (f27e97)

  120. Factory working orphan, you say ‘absolute equality in outcomes’ as if I’m nit picking over differences attributable to measurement error. I’m not. You can’t pick a year because it hasn’t happened yet. Or because you’ve never looked at the data and are only interested in how the conversation makes you feel.

    Here’s study PEW did a couple years ago.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2016/06/27/1-demographic-trends-and-economic-well-being/

    When do you feel, based on results, that our system produced just outcomes?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  121. “I want to understand white rage. And I’m white!” – General Milley

    Milley Vanilley!

    “Man on top of hill not on level.” – Confucius

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  122. Frosty, you lost me there, can you explain? Try typing slowing so I can keep up. 😀

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  123. you say ‘absolute equality in outcomes’ as if I’m nit picking over differences attributable to measurement error. I’m not.

    You mentioned very specific socio-economic markers and then asserted that because there wasn’t a specific year that absolute equality of outcome in these markers started taking place, that this was evidence that the system was still rigged.

    Or because you’ve never looked at the data and are only interested in how the conversation makes you feel.

    The data is irrelevant because the premise behind all of them is that the system is rigged. This is circular reasoning based on the premise that if all races aren’t on the same socio-economic scale, the ones who are lower are being oppressed by those on the upper levels.

    You’re not advancing anything new here.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  124. FWO, but it’s a historical fact that blacks were oppressed. You seem to be saying the impact of that’s gone. Ok, what data are you using to make that conclusion?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  125. FWO, but it’s a historical fact that blacks were oppressed.

    No one is disputing that. This is another arrow in the CRT quiver–claiming that people are denying that blacks were oppressed.

    You seem to be saying the impact of that’s gone.

    I’m saying that the argument that the system is rigged is circular reasoning.

    Ok, what data are you using to make that conclusion?

    Why should a society be marked by absolute equality of outcome?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  126. Time123 (9f42ee) — 6/23/2021 @ 6:32 pm

    Based on your framing I’m not sure we’re very close to agreeing on much. When you say black who do you mean? All black peoples? Only American descendants of slaves? When you say oppressed what is this relative to? Are we comparing all black people to all white people? Poor black people to poor white people? Are we comparing population distributions? Are we comparing black Americans with black Africans? When you say started what point in time are we working from? Are we factoring in life choices? How do we account for social factors like stable families?

    I’d also say we’re never going to agree on an outcome based analysis. You can’t design society to create a desired outcome. You can make the opportunity equal, and we’ve pretty much given up on that, but you can’t force an outcome.

    Even if we did all of that, the goal would still be to prove that all of the black mans problems are because of the white man, i.e. the implied assumption is that white people are evil racists. They are so evil, and capable, that they’ve figured out how to magically force black people, against their will mind you, to make some of the life choices I suspect are at the heart of the problem.

    We can speculate all day about the Tulsa massacre but do you really think that’s why kids in inner cities are joining gangs and killing each other?

    frosty (f27e97)

  127. If only Europeans and Asians were still Neolithic cannibals in the 17th century. Then we would all be equal and we wouldn’t be having all these problems we’re having.

    nk (1d9030)

  128. If only Europeans and Asians were still Neolithic cannibals in the 17th century. Then we would all be equal and we wouldn’t be having all these problems we’re having.

    nk (1d9030) — 6/23/2021 @ 7:02 pm

    The irony is that the idea that slavery is wrong, and its philosophical descendant notion that all men are created equal, is almost exclusively rooted in the principles of the European Enlightenment. Most African-Americans are descended from tribes who were absolutely stomped by other African tribes, both sub-Saharan and north Africans like the Berbers, and sold into slavery to whoever would buy them (indeed, you occasionally see Africans on Twitter mock them for this). Suleimain’s favorite wife, Roxelana, was a white woman from the Ukraine who had originally been captured by the Tartars.

    When Ghadaffi was overthrown, the Libyan slave markets started right back up. Irrespective of the morality of the practice, humans being taken as booty as part of the Right of Conquest goes back a long, long way, and it’s telling that the societies who find it abhorrent are the ones who were never Europeanized.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  129. *the ones who don’t find it abhorrent.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  130. it’s a historical fact that blacks were oppressed. You seem to be saying the impact of that’s gone.

    What has happened to the impact of the historical fact that Democrats were the oppressors? Maybe the day the party of slavery washed their hands clean of their sins is the date your are looking for?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  131. I find irony in the new exhortations to take up “The White Man’s Burden”.

    nk (1d9030)

  132. Sorry, guys. Kipling is like Lay’s potato chips. You can’t stop at just one.

    nk (1d9030)

  133. Frosty,

    I guess we agree that in the past the system was rigged against people of color. Your claim is that this is not currently the case. Like Time I am wondering when you think the change happened? With the 1964 Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act?

    And the rejoinder would be 1) that people didn’t suddenly change their approach to race in 1964 and 1965 because of federal legislation (both of which were opposed by large numbers of conservatives elected to state and federal office). The federal laws simply allowed for a possibility of change which still had to be struggled for, against fierce opposition, for many years (Remember why Lester Maddox became Governor of Georgia?)

    And 2), it may be a cliché but it’s also true – if you systematically rig a system against a group of people for a few centuries, the results themselves do not magically disappear if your system, gradually, becomes fairer and less racist. You have an advantage if your parents raised you in a house they owned, at good jobs, with financial security. You have an advantage if you are raised and start life in a society that actually sees you as equal and normal, and not as dangerous and afflicted with laziness, which is what I think Factory Orphan seemed to be getting at.

    Whitehouse, a Democratic senator from Rhode Island, is rightly being criticized by Republicans for not giving up membership in a beach club of powerful people. The club itself denies they are all white, but would it be a surprise if they were? And if they were, would that just be a strange coincidence, and not a continuing issue for proceeding fairly today?

    And is an intellectual theory that examines how race was used in the past, and how it is used in the present, and how the effects of racism persist somehow supposed to be a terrible thing?

    I note by the way that nobody has picked up the fact that Republican presidential front runner, Desantis, wants to survey all the college professors in Florida to determine their political opinions.

    Victor (9ebafe)

  134. Time123 (9f42ee) — 6/23/2021 @ 6:39 pm

    Where did I lose you? I routinely don’t make sense so you’ll need to be more specific.

    frosty (f27e97)

  135. And is an intellectual theory that examines how race was used in the past, and how it is used in the present, and how the effects of racism persist somehow supposed to be a terrible thing?

    It is if it demands that people identified as part of the group of hegemonic oppressors are told to abase themselves for sins they never actually committed. That’s what makes CRT and its proponents so insidious. Curtis’s post might have been crude, but he’s not wrong that “having a conversation” typically means “shut up and admit you’re part of a rigged, racist system, you white oppressor.”

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  136. I note by the way that nobody has picked up the fact that Republican presidential front runner, Desantis, wants to survey all the college professors in Florida to determine their political opinions.

    The link was behind a paywall, so I didn’t dig further. Do you have another source that I can take a look at? Thanks.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  137. Victor (9ebafe) — 6/23/2021 @ 7:39 pm

    You’d be making a better bet that we don’t agree absent much clearer evidence.

    Your claim is that this is not currently the case.

    This would be a good example. I didn’t make this claim. It would be more correct to say that you haven’t proven the case that it is. This is a subtle difference but it isn’t the same thing.

    if you systematically rig a system against a group of people for a few centuries, the results

    Again, playing with words. The concept of current systemic racism isn’t the same as past systematic rigging. Looking at the past and asserting the present existence of racism based on current outcomes is mixing up different issues. It’s what leads you to advocate for current racist policies against one group of people based on the past racist policies of a different group of people.

    somehow supposed to be a terrible thing

    I told you but I don’t think you’re listening. CRT isn’t a branch of the history department. We’ve got the actual study of history for that. CRT and systemic racism presuppose that white people are racist in a way unique to humans in general. It’s a racist ideology. It’s premised on the idea that western society, and most of its trappings and institutions, was created by and for white people and is designed to oppress non-white people. This, incidentally, is exactly what white supremacist believe. I don’t believe that and I generally disagree with racist regardless of their color.

    note by the way that nobody has picked up

    I note that I asked you questions directly that you didn’t answer.

    frosty (f27e97)

  138. Time123 (9f42ee) — 6/23/2021 @ 6:32 pm

    Victor (9ebafe) — 6/23/2021 @ 7:39 pm

    Like Time I am wondering when you think the change happened?

    Both of you are assuming I think black people have caught up? Let me ask you, what would be caught up? Some statistical analysis that showed what exactly?

    Do you think the issues plaguing the black community would just fade away if you can convince white folks to not be so racist.

    frosty (f27e97)

  139. “It’s premised on the idea that western society, and most of its trappings and institutions, was created by and for white people and is designed to oppress non-white people.”

    No, it’s premised on the idea that western society, and most of its trappings and institutions, was created by and for white people and as a side effect oppresses non-white people.

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  140. No, it’s premised on the idea that western society, and most of its trappings and institutions, was created by and for white people and as a side effect oppresses non-white people.

    Davethulhu (13b53b) — 6/23/2021 @ 9:01 pm

    A distinction without a difference.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  141. “A distinction without a difference.”

    no difference between intentional and unintentional

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  142. Davethulhu (13b53b) — 6/23/2021 @ 9:08 pm

    So, you’re thinking white people have the ability to intentionally construct a society by and for themselves but are simply unaware of the consequences. Do people of color participate at all in this creative process? If not why not? Are they in some way unable to? Do white people have some inherent trait that makes them able to limit the agency of all other peoples?

    Or is the construction unintentional too?

    frosty (f27e97)

  143. “So, you’re thinking white people have the ability to intentionally construct a society by and for themselves but are simply unaware of the consequences. Do people of color participate at all in this creative process? If not why not? Are they in some way unable to?”

    Congratulations, you’ve discovered critical race theory.

    “Do white people have some inherent trait that makes them able to limit the agency of all other peoples?”

    Congratulations, you’ve discovered right-wing media’s spin on critical race theory.

    Davethulhu (13b53b)

  144. no difference between intentional and unintentional

    Davethulhu (13b53b) — 6/23/2021 @ 9:08 pm

    Neither is the question-begging.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  145. Congratulations, you’ve discovered critical race theory.

    The kindest thing I can think about that right now is the dwarf and the door scene from Joker.

    nk (1d9030)

  146. Davethulhu (13b53b) — 6/23/2021 @ 10:30 pm

    What’s your spin on it? I notice that you, Victor, and Time123 don’t have an answer for my questions? Either you misrepresent them or you ignore them and you’re trying to maintain several conflicting ideas at the same time.

    frosty (f27e97)

  147. Frosty,
    There have been several conversations going on so let me try to clearly articulate what I’m asserting.

    Up until 1965 it was not only legal, but mandated that black people in the US be excluded from large parts of public life. The oppression of black people was codified into law up until that point. The impact of that can clearly be seen in simple measures of outcomes such as; income, home ownership, educational attainment, and medical care. I don’t think these are complicated statistical analysis. I think they’re simple measures, so I think they’re useful in defining if a problem exists.

    After 1965 the legal mandate to oppress, or discriminate against black people was removed, and the process of removing them began. This also accelerated the process of removing non-statutory discrimination. But clearly the passage of the civil rights act was only a step in the process and not the end point.

    I can see in the data that conditions for black people began to improve dramatically. See here for data https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2016/06/27/1-demographic-trends-and-economic-well-being/

    Butt it’s also clear in the data that these improvements in outcome, while real, haven’t closed the gap. Again, being a pragmatist I have an idea in what I’m looking for when I say ‘close the gap’. I think we can consider the issue of the lingering after affects of centuries of suppression addressed when we see 1 of 2 things;

    1. The difference in outcomes between black and whites are within the margin of error of our ability to measure.
    2. The difference in outcomes between blacks and whites are indistinguishable from the difference in outcomes of in group whites (e.g. Irish vs other white people)

    So, when I see what looks like an assertion that historical system of oppression isn’t a factor in today’s world I think it’s factually incorrect and object to it based on the reasoning above. I’m not proposing a solution, or defending an educational or cultural approach. I’m just asserting the the. Problem is real and can be seen clearly in simple measures of attainment.

    I’m curious what you think about viewing and measuring the existence of the problem in this way?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  148. Sorry for the many typo’s. My new iPad keyboard throws in random periods and haven’t used to catching them yet.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  149. As a Chicagoan, I would like to hear from the first black President of the United States, the third black Mayor of the city in the last 35 years, our black County Board President, our black State’s Attorney, and our black Attorney General, about black people who cannot unlock the doors of the society constructed by and for whites.

    nk (1d9030)

  150. BTW, shouldn’t Juneteenth be on December 6? That’s when the 13th Amendment was ratified in 1865. Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the eleven states in rebellion.

    nk (1d9030)

  151. NK, That’s a great point about progress. Just think, there people alive today who remember crosses burned in the yards of black people who moved into white neighborhoods. It’s pretty cool that we’ve come so far in just a couple generations.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  152. Time123’s comments made me go back and review some of Thomas Sowell’s scholarship with regards to inequal outcomes and disparate impact. One snide but insightful anecdote: those born first in their families were more likely to be National Merit Scholarship finalists than all their younger siblings combined, even in families with as many as five children. “If there is not equality of outcomes among people born to the same parents and raised under the same roof,” Sowell asks, “why should equality of outcomes be expected—or assumed—when conditions are not nearly so comparable?”

    Now this is in no way a proof that discrimination can never factor in….but it does question whether businesses need to prove that unequal representation is not due to discrimination. People make choices; some people work harder….government is not good at teasing out individual situations. It’s good at lumping us into convenient categories….and treating us based on observable…but often times minimally relevant….characteristics like race. And sometimes government inadvertently rewards pathology in an attempt to address disparate impact….and forces good businessmen to have to prove that they are not in fact racist.

    There will still be overt through very subtle discrimination in our society….in a number of different ways. The reality is that more people are looking for it, there are laws specifically against it, and media will expose it at every turn. I actually think we’ve done a remarkable job as a society over the past 60 years. Discrimination isn’t gone but it plays a lot smaller role today than what activists are claiming.

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  153. Time123 (9f42ee) — 6/24/2021 @ 5:15 am

    Do you want to talk about the charts you linked that describe the trends in marriage and single-parent children? Or “particularly when it comes to high school completion rates”? Crime stats aren’t very good either.

    The difference in outcomes

    Two things to note. 1) the data you linked described a lot of the stats as “blacks say” indicating subjective data. The research is backed up by harder statistics but this is a squishy area. We could resolve a lot of those issues with some easily constructed propaganda. I’m not saying we should just highlighting the issue with this sort of analysis. 2) do you have any suggestion for obtaining this outcome that doesn’t involve more racism?

    I’m just asserting the problem is real and can be seen clearly in simple measures of attainment.

    Whether it’s real isn’t the question. Like I mentioned before, there are comments here that claim I’m saying things I’m not saying. The question is why is there a gap and what can be done about it. The answer CRT gives for why is white people are racist and for what can be done is a list of policies that are racist. The idea being that present racism will even out past racism.

    To answer your question, 1) I don’t think society can be engineered. 2) I think it’s fine to look at the issue this way as long as you understand the limits of the approach. The existence of a gap, especially a subjectively measured gap, doesn’t imply racism. What happens to equally situated people independent of race? For example, is the outcome for a child of a single mother who dropped out of high school and is only qualified to work minimum wage jobs within the margin of error? I see a lot of whites caught in this same cycle of poverty.

    Is it racism that whites choose to stay in high school at a higher rate than blacks, and asians at an even higher rate, don’t get pregnant, get married at higher rates, commit less crime, and then go on to have higher incomes? How does that work exactly? There seems to be a lot of hand waving around this issue that leaves open a lot of questions.

    Where we end up in these discussions always seems to be the same. Someone will point out that staying in school, not getting pregnant out of wedlock, having a stable family, and not committing crimes are all things that can be done by any individual to improve their lot and the lot of their children and someone else will claim all of these things are simply the result of white racism and oppression, either past or present. Some CRT proponents now claim those things are themselves examples of white oppression.

    The logic seems to be, ensure equal outcomes somehow and these social issues will resolve themselves or maybe not because people can still choose the above. My opinion is those things above are on the path to equal outcomes and are possibly a necessary precondition.

    frosty (f27e97)

  154. CRT isn’t a branch of the history department. We’ve got the actual study of history for that. CRT and systemic racism presuppose that white people are racist in a way unique to humans in general. It’s a racist ideology.

    Can you point to a citation, outside of the right wing news bubble? Though, if it’s purely a question of history, in the last 400 years or so it is true that the history of “white” people has been distinct in its domination of the planet. Some are even proud of it.

    Victor (9ebafe)

  155. Frosty, I don’t know if you’ll see this, but thank you for the comment. Once. We’re agreed that the problem is real I don’t have a lot to offer. Smarter men then I have failed to come up with a solution.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  156. Victor (9ebafe) — 6/24/2021 @ 10:07 am

    You’re saying that because advocates of CRT aren’t stupid enough to directly state that they’re racist that they are in fact not racist? Wow, that seems to be a trick unique to them.

    I’ve asked a number of fairly straight forward questions that you’ve answered with more questions that I’ve actually tried to answer. But yet you don’t return the curtesy.

    If it’s correct to say that western society has been created by and for white people, a formulation I don’t agree with on several levels, and the result whether intended or not has been the oppression of non-white people then it’s a charge of racism. The “by” and “for” by themselves are very racist positions. This is especially true for recent history. You don’t see the implications inherent in the definition but instead need a citation? Why do I think you’d dismiss any citation as right-wing propaganda? Do you have any other response than to assert something is right-wing and think that ends the discussion?

    Now we’ve expanded to the entire planet. How do you propose that white people have, as you say, dominated the entire planet for the last 400 years?

    frosty (f27e97)


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