Patterico's Pontifications

5/20/2021

Thankfully Not All Progressives Are Reflexively Anti-Israel

Filed under: General — JVW @ 8:13 am



[guest post by JVW]

Over at Substack, Bari Weiss has a very enlightening interview with freshman Democrat Congressman Ritchie Torres, whose 15th Congressional District abuts with that of our Adorably Ornery Clueless niece who helms the neighboring 14th District. Congressman Torres, young (age 33), Afro-Latino, and gay, has the requisite left-wing politics that one might expect from someone of his generation, geography, and background. Representing what might be the poorest district in the entire country, the novice Congressman (who previously was a city council member for eight years) has focused his efforts on public housing issues along with calling out sketchy practices by gig economy companies and the bureau which controls NYC taxi medallions, displaying a healthy skepticism towards powerful entities in general and incompetence and corruption embedded in NYC public offices in particular. In that regard, there is a great deal that a conservative can find to cheer. He has also wisely steered clear of Justice Democrats, opting not to seek their endorsement for his run, and he pointedly told reporters that he was not interested in joining the Squad, despite his district being spitting distance from our aforementioned Neiman-Marxist niece and the 16th Congressional District represented by Democrat Socialist Jamaal Bowman, a fellow freshman who ousted yet another longtime party hack to win his seat.

So this past week when Congressman Torres, asked by Ms. Weiss about the situation that has unfolded in the Middle East over the past week, gave a strong defense of Israel’s response to the provocations of Hamas despite having little to no Jewish constituency to speak of in his district and despite the left’s general antipathy for the only real Middle Eastern multi-cultural democracy and their sympathetic romanticism of the ugly dysfunction of the Palestine Authority:

Bari Weiss: Last week you said: “I am here to affirm, as a member of Congress — one who intends to be here for a long time — that I have an unwavering commitment to both the sovereignty and security of Israel as a Jewish state.” That kind of statement used to be par for the course for Democratic politicians. That no longer seems to me to be the case. What happened?

Ritchie Torres: It feels like we are living through a tectonic shift. We’re increasingly living in a world where support for Israel as a Jewish state, support for the American Israeli relationship, support even for a two state solution, is becoming heresy. And BDS is in danger of becoming orthodoxy, particularly within progressive circles.

BW: Why has that view become heretical? How did we get to this point?

RT: Not only is Israel under siege from rocket fire, but the truth itself is under siege. There’s been an ongoing propaganda war and the narrative that is dominating is one that attempts to normalize Hamas and delegitimize Israel. A few days ago, and I spoke about this on the House floor, there was a New York State elected official who posted a map where the state of Israel was nowhere to be found. It simply said Palestine. And the omission was not an accident.

Congressman Torres wisely passes on commenting directly on the incendiary statements coming from his fellow caucus members, preferring to speak in generalities rather than directly rebutting their ignorant and insipid bleatings:

RT: First, I have a rule of never commenting on a lot of the opinions that colleagues expressed publicly for the sake of collegiality, and I respect everyone you just mentioned. Obviously I have a difference of opinion. For me, it should be possible to speak out against the eviction of a Palestinian family without equating it to ethnic cleansing. It should be possible to constructively critique the policies and practices of the Israeli government without calling for the destruction of Israel itself. My issue is not criticism. My issue is the lack of nuance in the democratic socialist critique of Israel. What is often directed toward Israel is not criticism. It feels like hatred. And I’ve observed it since 2014 when I began engaging with this issue.

BW: But those statements I read, are they promoting understanding or promoting hatred?

RT: Again, I don’t want to be put in a position of speaking out against colleagues because I have working relationships with all of them. But in general, I worry that the rhetoric that I have heard is aimed at delegitimizing Israel rather than de-escalating the conflict.

He also lays the smack down on Twitter as “a cesspool of antisemitic invective” which is “incompatible with critical thought.” And he shows a refreshingly historical perspective of why a Jewish homeland is so important:

When I went to Israel, the two experiences that had the most profound impact on me were Yad Vashem and Masada. And for me, the words “never again” summarize the rationale for a Jewish state. Never again will the Jewish community have to commit mass suicide in order to escape escape enslavement at the hands of a foreign enemy like it did in the Masada. And never again will the Jewish community fall victim to ethnic cleansing and genocide, as it did during the Holocaust. You cannot erase those experiences of oppression because those experiences explain the moral and historical necessity of Israel as a Jewish state.

When asked if he doesn’t fear for his political future by supporting Israel, opposing defunding the police, and endorsing Andrew Yang, Congressman Torres replies that he places his faith in his constituent’s everyday concerns — “health and housing, schools, jobs” — not the geopolitical obsessions of the Twitterati and their tie-in to social justice claptrap (admittedly not the phrase he used). I doubt that were I a member of Congress my voting record would be too similar to that of Ritchie Torres, but I can admire him for being willing to stand up for what he believes is right, especially when it would be far easier for him to join the woke mob.

– JVW

59 Responses to “Thankfully Not All Progressives Are Reflexively Anti-Israel”

  1. Jamaal Bowman is doing the “brother” business on Congressman Torres, which strikes me as a thinly-veiled way of suggesting that his status as “brother” is subject to revocation if he continues to take a pro-Israel line. Just as the Trumpists demand 100% loyalty to the narrative, so too do the radically woke.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  2. Congressman Torres replies that he places his faith in his constituent’s everyday concerns — “health and housing, schools, jobs” — not the geopolitical obsessions of the Twitterati and their tie-in to social justice…

    The Squad, like most grandstanding representatives, are not interested in helping their districts. Instead, they have an ideology (and themselves) to promote and their districts be damned if that conflicts. Torres seems to want to improve things for his district. I bet he would have fallen all over himself to get that Amazon HQ there (not that Amazon was interested in the South Bronx). He sounds like someone who sees government as a positive good, but also prefers reality and facts to “the vision thing,”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  3. Remember – all the liberals and Democrats screaming about Israel are quieter than church mice about China.

    Hoi Polloi (121542)

  4. He also lays the smack down on Twitter as “a cesspool of antisemitic invective”

    He had me at “cesspool”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  5. Shorter JVW: Torres may be on the Left but, unlike the Squad, he is sane.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  6. Representing what might be the poorest district in the entire country

    Not only the poorest district, but the one which was the location of the original Tan Suit Gaffe in August 1980.

    urbanleftbehind (2e1011)

  7. Great post.

    I’m at a point where I just want people to say what they really think, use their own brain, and stop letting popular sentiment on twitter (which is obviously manipulated) lead us around.

    Frankly just being reasonably patient instead of constantly alarmed puts a politician way ahead in my book. Even if the problems are serious, we can’t get anywhere the way things are going.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  8. Just as the Trumpists demand 100% loyalty to the narrative, so too do the radically woke.
    JVW (ee64e4) — 5/20/2021 @ 8:24 am

    That is commonplace on the political fringe – on both sides.

    Hoi Polloi (121542)

  9. Torres is right-most people aren’t emotionally invested in geopolitics and could care less about what is happening in the Middle East or China, when “health and housing, schools, jobs” are more important to their everyday lives.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  10. That is commonplace on the political fringe – on both sides.

    If the two parties were not so busy embracing the fringe, it wouldn’t be so worrisome. But both parties have abandoned the middle, setting most Americans politically adrift.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  11. There’s been an ongoing propaganda war and the narrative that is dominating is one that attempts to normalize Hamas and delegitimize Israel.

    There is no other purpose for Hamas to be firing rockets at Israel.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  12. Hamas rockets have been a political godsend to Netanyahu. On the verge of political oblivion, and facing a criminal investigation, and potentially another election, he gets to appear as Israel’s chief defender. Couldn’t have happened at a better time.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  13. I have given strict instructions to my family that if I ever take a New York politician, and especially a Democrat, seriously, to have me placed under conservatorship and in a secure facility before I bring total shame on the family by proposing marriage to AOC.

    nk (1d9030)

  14. And I’ll tell you something else, too, comrades: More than half of Israel’s Jews find it “possible to speak out against the eviction of a Palestinian family without equating it to ethnic cleansing and “constructively critique the policies and practices of the Israeli government without calling for the destruction of Israel itself”.

    That’s why Netanyahu has not been able to form a government after three(?) elections even with the support of the ultra-Orthodox. That’s why the most seats Likud has ever gotten in the Knesset has been 39 out of 120.

    “Godsend”, my aunt. Not even the devil had to do anything. What’s happening now is all Netanyahu. He provoked it. To keep himself in power and out of prison.

    nk (1d9030)

  15. Thankfully Not All Progressives Are Reflexively Anti-Israel

    Uh-huh. Well, as Israelis like to say about you-know-what and the goosestepping you-know-who:

    “Never forget.”

    ‘The USS Liberty incident was an attack on a United States Navy technical research ship, USS Liberty, by Israeli Air Force jet fighter aircraft and Israeli Navy motor torpedo boats, on 8 June 1967, during the Six-Day War. The combined air and sea attack killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two marines, and one civilian NSA employee), wounded 171 crew members, and severely damaged the ship. At the time, the ship was in international waters north of the Sinai Peninsula, about 25.5 nmi (29.3 mi; 47.2 km) northwest from the Egyptian city of Arish.- source, wiki.bitehandthatfeedsyou.ouch’

    Yeah. Never forget.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  16. 3. Remember – all the liberals and Democrats screaming about Israel are quieter than church mice about China.

    Harry Truman, quiet? Crack wise about anything, especially Margaret’s piano playing, and you get an ear full of ‘manure.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  17. 14.

    That’s why Netanyahu has not been able to form a government after three(?) elections

    Four elections. He did form one after the last one, but it fell apart, and you can seriously speculate, that Netanyahu intended to end it before the rotation hit.

    Now Israel faces a fifth election…and a 6th…and a 7th. Each election produces approximately the same result.

    even with the support of the ultra-Orthodox.

    No, they were always in his corner, and Netanyahu’s in theirs. And if they joined a non-right wing government, if they would have them, they’d probably lose half their votes in the next election because some people vote for them on the assumption that it is also a vote for Netanyahu as Prime Minister.

    The interesting thing is, if the prosecutors displaced Netanyahu, there would probably be a government with a Prime Minister from the Likud, since two factions (whose leaders actually want to be Prime Minister themselves) have said they have personal objections to Netanyahu. Bennett and Sa’ar and Lapid are not likely to be able to put together a coalition.

    There are a number of parties that will not join in a coalition with certain other parties. And there is an extreme right wing party that seems to want to bring everything down. If anything, they want to promote hatred out of a certain bitterness or meanness maybe, or because somebody is being paid off. I mean, it’s totally crazy.

    And there’s a Russian anti-religious party that says it is right wing but won’t enter into a coalition that depends on an Arab party or that has Netanyahu at the head.

    Netanyahu stays on as caretaker so long as no government is formed, but if it takes too long, or if they don’t pass a budget after it is formed, they go to elections. There have been four elections in in two years. There is no end in sight.

    That’s why the most seats Likud has ever gotten in the Knesset has been 39 out of 120.

    The leading parties used to get close to 40. Now it’s 30 or so. The threshold is 4 seats now.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  18. Thank you, Sammy. Who are the religious pacifists and whom are they with? The ones who will do their government service only in non-combatant units?

    nk (1d9030)

  19. And I know that DCSCA is still pissed that Israel witched from the USSR to the United States, but can we find a way to get a current calendar to him at least? We’ve had 27 Congresses and 10 Presidents since the Liberty incident. All allied with Israel.

    nk (1d9030)

  20. 12. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 5/20/2021 @ 9:56 am

    Hamas rockets have been a political godsend to Netanyahu. On the verge of political oblivion, and facing a criminal investigation, and potentially another election, he gets to appear as Israel’s chief defender. Couldn’t have happened at a better time.

    14. nk (1d9030) — 5/20/2021 @ 10:31 am

    “Godsend”, my aunt. Not even the devil had to do anything. What’s happening now is all Netanyahu. He provoked it. To keep himself in power and out of prison.

    You unederestimate the cynicism of Hamas. It may xeem to be having that effect – except that a different coalition was not going to happen. Hamas may have believed the press reports, though.. and wanted to keep Netanyahu in power.

    And Netanyahu didn’t provoke it. Two times, he tried to de-escalate at the end, but on May 10 to 11 Hamas was determined to go ahead with the rockets.

    Front page Sunday May 16, 2921 story in a source not behind a paywall:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/years-quiet-israeli-palestinian-conflict-151113922.html

    …That set the stage for a dramatic showdown on Monday, May 10. A final court hearing on Sheikh Jarrah was set to coincide with Jerusalem Day, when Jews celebrate the reunification of Jerusalem by dint of the capture of East Jerusalem in 1967.

    Jewish nationalists typically mark the day by marching through the Muslim Quarter of the Old City and trying to visit Temple Mount, the site on which the Al-Aqsa Mosque is built. The looming combination of that march, tensions over Al-Aqsa and the possibility of an eviction order in Sheikh Jarrah seemed to be building toward something dangerous.

    The Israeli government scrambled to tamp down tensions. The Supreme Court hearing in the eviction case was postponed. An order barred Jews from entering the mosque compound.

    But police raided the Al-Aqsa Mosque again, early on Monday morning, after Palestinians stockpiled stones in anticipation of clashes with police and far-right Jews. For the second time in three days, stun grenades and rubber-tipped bullets were fired across the compound, in scenes that were broadcast across the world.

    At the last minute, the government rerouted the Jerusalem Day march away from the Muslim Quarter, after receiving an intelligence briefing about the risk of escalation if it went ahead. But that was too little, and far too late. By then, the Israeli army had already begun to order civilians away from the Gaza perimeter.

    Shortly after 6 p.m. on Monday, the rocket fire from Gaza began.

    It is also probably true that Netanyahu, or maybe a cabinet member, has been increasingly worried about the size of arsenal of rockets Hamas has, and whether “Iron Dome” can handle everything that is thrown against it. So once started, he wants to do something significant – besides he doesn’t want this starting again in a few weeks. Although more important is probably that this should end while Iran still does not have a nuclear bomb. The United States is worried that Hezbollah might get involved

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  21. @19. Never forget.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  22. This is an outstanding post, JVW! Thank you! I also thank Mr Torres, for his edifying thoughts. Bringing this young congressman to my attention is most appreciated, and I am highly persuaded that Torres merits close attention.

    felipe (484255)

  23. Frankly just being reasonably patient instead of constantly alarmed puts a politician way ahead in my book. Even if the problems are serious, we can’t get anywhere the way things are going.
    Dustin (4237e0) — 5/20/2021 @ 8:29 am

    I completely agree, Dustin.

    @Sammy: Your comments are greatly appreciated, sir. Thank you for answering my questions before I asked them.

    felipe (484255)

  24. I wrote a whole response to 18 and lost it by some accidental keyboarding. I will have to try again. Meanwhile there is this

    I don’t agree with a lot of what this column says, including the idea that Netanyahu was about to lose power. But I think Hamas may have believed the published reports.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/opinion/israel-netanyahu-hamas.html

    And for 12 years Hamas has had one mission: to keep Netanyahu in power so Hamas and its backers in Iran could tell their naïve supporters in Europe, on liberal college campuses, in the media and in the Democratic Party that the problem is not Hamas — an Islamo-fascist organization without a shred of democratic fiber that is dedicated to destroying the Jewish state and imposing a Tehran-like Islamic regime in Palestine — but rather that terrible pro-settler Netanyahu government in Israel.

    Friedman seems to think Netanyahu wants to keep Hamas in power. Is he blaming him for not toppling Hamas?

    I don’t think the purpose of Hamas was to take over the “Palestinian cause.” Even by their own terms, it makes no sense. Getting your people killed in a useless “war” is not a way to win hearts and minds, and people in the middle of it are least likely to believe lies about who started it and other matters. It can only be explained by saying everybody in charge in Gaza is taking orders from Iran.

    It was so they could more easily vilify Israel in order to throw a wedge between Israel and other countries.

    So that Iran could intervene the next time and not get opposed.

    And use an atomic bomb, or a bomb loaded with nuclear waste, with impunity.

    Which will be watched very carefully by China, Pakistan, and North Korea, who may draw incorrect conclusions from what ensues.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  25. @25. Israel folds.

    ‘Independent Sen. Bernie Sanders will introduce a resolution on Thursday [5/20/21] disapproving of the U.S. sale of $735 million in precision-guided weapons to Israel, according to a draft obtained by CNN. -source, CNN.com, 5/19/21

    “You got to know when to hold ’em;
    Know when to fold ’em;
    Know when to walk away;
    And know when to run.” – Kenny Rogers ‘The Gambler’ UA Records, 1978

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  26. Re; to 18: I lost it again, by hitting the wrong key (twice I think) when the keyboard slipped. The whole Patterico page went back. I don’t know what in Google Chrome does this.

    Well, with every try it gets better.

    In the news, there’s a report of a ceasefire.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  27. 18. nk (1d9030) — 5/20/2021 @ 11:35 am

    Thank you, Sammy. Who are the religious pacifists and whom are they with? The ones who will do their government service only in non-combatant units?

    They are not exactly pacifists, but they probably would mainly be supporters of the two religious parties (which I wrote a great deal about in the lost messages) but they are not affiliated with any.

    You are probably thinking of Zaka, which is not part of the army at all, but an independent organization. They work with the police, or within police districts. I am not sure to what degree they get “credit” for army service.

    They got into this for religious reasons principally the requirement that when someone is murdered. everything that came out of the body, including blood, must be buried with that person. They are chiefly involved in mass killings or road accidents.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  28. I call them the Squadristi, which was one of the Italian names for the Blackshirts.

    The left, who always favor the downtrodden, without ever considering that possibly the downtrodden are responsible for their own plight, love them some Palestinians, Palestinians who would throw then in jail — if not off tall buildings — if they are homosexual, who who have little respect for women’s rights, and none at all for black people.

    Jews? Jews in Israel, and Jews in America, have done just a little too well for themselves, been a little too prosperous, by the purportedly American values of studying and working hard in school, and then working hard in their careers, and the left just resent them!

    It’s pretty interesting to me, how the two ethnic groups who have epitomized the “American way” in life, Jews and Asians, are under attack by white ‘progressives’ and blacks. Hahvahd used to have an official ‘Jewish quota,’ back in the 1920s and 1930s, to keep the college from becoming too Jewish. Today it’s unofficial, but they are strongly discriminating against Asian applicants, because to admit based solely on merit would make the school majority Asian.

    The Dana in Kentucky (e9cac9)

  29. Remember – all the liberals and Democrats screaming about Israel are quieter than church mice about China.

    Alternative facts.

    Meanwhile, in the real world:

    Senate Moves Bill Forward to Urge Sanctioning China for Muslim Concentration Camps

    Among the sponsors are Sens. Bernie Sanders (I-VT), Elizabeth Warren (D-MA), Tom Cotton (R-AR), and Chuck Grassley (R-IA).

    Ted Cruz, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez co-sign Congressional request that NBA suspend activities in China

    Rep. Omar Leads Letter to CEOs, including Apple, Amazon, and Google, Condemning the Use of Forced Uyghur Labor in China

    The letters were signed by Rep. James P. McGovern, Rep. Rashida Tlaib, Rep. Andy Levin, Rep. Jan Schakowsky, and Rep. Jamie Raskin.

    Rep. Pressley on Uygur Persecution in China

    “The mass internment of Uygurs in China is a global disgrace…”

    (She went on to compare it to the mass incarceration of black, brown and poor people in America)

    Dave (1542be)

  30. Next to the NBA, nobody deep-throated China more than the corrupt, criminal, visa-selling, child-slave-labor-shoddy-schlock-importing, Trump-Kushner crime family.

    nk (1d9030)

  31. I’m generally pro-Israel, but the settlements give me pause. Can someone explain why they’re a good thing?

    norcal (081862)

  32. 31. Next to the NBA, nobody deep-throated China more than the corrupt, criminal, visa-selling, child-slave-labor-shoddy-schlock-importing, Trump-Kushner crime family.

    Nobody… except The Big Dick:

    ‘U.S. President Richard Nixon ‘s 1972 visit to the People’s Republic of China was an important strategic and diplomatic overture that marked the culmination of the Nixon administration’s resumption of harmonious relations between the United States and mainland China after years of diplomatic isolation…the trip spawned China’s opening to the world and economic parity with capitalist countries.

    The relationship between China and the U.S. is now one of the most important bilateral relationships in the world, and every successive U.S. president, except Jimmy Carter, has visited China. The trip is consistently ranked by historians, scholars, and journalists as one of the most important—if not the most important—visits by a U.S. president anywhere. Also, a “Nixon to China” moment has since become a metaphor to refer to the ability of a politician with an unassailable reputation among their supporters for representing and defending their values to take actions that would draw their criticism and even opposition if taken by someone without those credentials.’ – source, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon%27s_1972_visit_to_China

    “Follow the money.” – ‘Deep Throat’ [Hal Holbrook] ‘All The President’s Men’ 1976

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  33. I’m generally pro-Israel, but the settlements give me pause. Can someone explain why they’re a good thing?

    See “Snatch”, norcal.

    nk (1d9030)

  34. 32. norcal (081862) — 5/20/2021 @ 6:44 pm

    but the settlements give me pause. Can someone explain why they’re a good thing?

    The people who think they are a good thing. for other than “recovery of the land” type reasons, think they are a good thing because they prevent Israel from surrendering territory, which they consider would be a dangerous blunder.

    But there are no new settlements, and haven’t been for years, aside from some ad hoc attempts which are not recognized and are sometimes demolished. The Arab claim is that any new housing for Jews in the part of Jerusalem that was annexed in 1968 is a settlement, and any new housing within the boundaries of an old settlement is an expansion.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  35. norcal wrote:

    I’m generally pro-Israel, but the settlements give me pause. Can someone explain why they’re a good thing?

    They are a far-too-late action by Israelis.

    If Israel wanted to keep the land it conquered in 1967, they should have expelled all of the Arabs in 1967, 1968. It would have been harsh and cruel, but by now, the problems would be over, and Israel would have more land along with shortened, more defensible borders.

    Instead, they tried to finesse things, making conditions harsh and expecting the Arabs to emigrate voluntarily. Oops!

    Now it’s just too late. The Israelis are smart and tough, but they are piss-poor conquerors.

    The Dana in Kentucky (e9cac9)

  36. think they are a good thing because they prevent Israel from surrendering territory

    Huh? This seems like circular reasoning.

    norcal (081862)

  37. They are a far-too-late action by Israelis.

    Then why do it?

    norcal (081862)

  38. As tempting as it is to make a comment about hillbillies who think they’re smarter than Jews, I won’t make it, because my old friend Dana in Kentucky might not take it as the badinage I know his comment was.

    nk (1d9030)

  39. 1967. The generations which had escaped “resettlement” by the forebears of Kentucky governors were going to do that to the Arabs?

    nk (1d9030)

  40. Great, nk. Another word I have to look up.

    norcal (081862)

  41. You already know it as “shooting the sh!t”, norcal.

    nk (1d9030)

  42. Now you’re laying French on me. Polyglot poser!

    norcal (081862)

  43. Polyglot poser!

    He knows words, he has the best words.

    Dave (1542be)

  44. Next to the NBA, nobody deep-throated China more than the corrupt, criminal, visa-selling, child-slave-labor-shoddy-schlock-importing, Trump-Kushner crime family.

    Lest anyone forget:

    “According to our interpreter,” Mr Bolton writes, “Trump said that Xi should go ahead with building the camps, which Trump thought was exactly the right thing to do.”

    Mr Bolton said that the conversation occurred during an opening dinner, attended only by translators, when Mr Xi explained “why he was basically building concentration camps” in the province where the Chinese Communist Party had been interning the ethnic minority.

    While the account of the dinner came through the US interpreter, Mr Bolton writes that he was also told by another National Security Council official, Matt Pottinger, that Mr Trump said something similar during a 2017 trip to China.

    Dave (1542be)

  45. Yes indeed, Mr. Dave. China almost blew it, until they built the camps. Strength!

    norcal (84cdee)

  46. Most progressives are not anti-israel they are anti netanhayu who is a corrupt racist who provoked hamas to stop arabs from joining in a coalition government to get rid of him. This makes them pro-israel.

    asset (b5aa8a)

  47. They think they are a good thing because they prevent Israel from surrendering territory

    38. norcal (081862) — 5/20/2021 @ 8:17 pm

    Huh? This seems like circular reasoning.

    They think any territory that is surrendered, like Gaza was, could (and would) easily be taken over by enemies of Israel and then the best that could happen is that Israel would have to go back in, at lleast temporarily, and get a lot of Israeli soldiers killed, not to mention others..

    They don;t believe in de-militerization or Israel maintaining bases there as part of a peace agreement, because without settlements the bases wouldn’t stay, They don’t believe that any of the internationally proposed frameworks are any kind of a “solution.” They don’t believe that the problem is caused by the territories. The Arabs who are hostile want to get rid of Israel, period.

    They believe, to the extent they think about it, that Arab political culture is sick, sick, sick and there is no partner on the other side. At least, at first, they should stop promoting hatred and vilification of Israel and honoring and compensating murderers and their families.

    All this about the settlements being good or bad is in the past. They are there now and too many Israelis live there now. The “obstacle to peace” is opposition to the settlements and wanting to get rid of them. Those who want two states (which is actually a solution to the wrong problem) want to incorporate the major settlement blocs into Israel, and perhaps give in exchange an equivalent number of square miles.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  48. (She went on to compare it to the mass incarceration of black, brown and poor people in America)
    Dave (1542be) — 5/20/2021 @ 6:10 pm

    I’m sure all those sincere and not at all virtue signaling efforts will make it through the Democrat-controlled Congress and to Biden’s desk for immediate signing and enactment.

    In the meantime, they will continue to wail forcefully and loudly in front of the media about the Israeli atrocities, ignoring the Hamas rockets that rain down on Jewish civilians.

    And they certainly won’t call out the increase in hate crimes against Jews undertaken by Arab Americans, like we saw in Los Angeles.

    Hoi Polloi (121542)

  49. 32, 36. 38. I see I didn;t quite understand the question.

    SF: They think they are a good thing because they prevent Israel from surrendering territory

    38. norcal (081862) — 5/20/2021 @ 8:17 pm

    Huh? This seems like circular reasoning.

    Israel is a democracy, without a permanent government, and besides, even with the same political party, the persons in charge can change, and besides decisions can be affected by diplomatic considerations.

    Some of the support of settlements came from people who didn’t want a future Israeli government to withdraw. This was called “establishing facts on the ground”

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  50. The ceasefire with regard to Gaza is holding. There is no rocket fire coming from Gaza and no bombing. The fact that Hamas staged a victory celebration with a huge crowd might be a sign Hamas intends to keep it. They will probably also therefore not fire on humanitarian aid.

    But there is civilian trouble in Israel, and the effort to promote hatred of Israel is expanding across the world.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  51. Trump’s endorsement of Xi’s actions can be seen as an example both of his personal lack of concern ad his attempt at flattery, not that Trump believed anything Xi was saying (which was probably how this was educational)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  52. Befire 182, There was even a small settlement (which eventually grew to 2,500 people) called Yamit, in the northeastern portion of the Sinai peninsula, just over the border from the Gaza Strip. It had about 6000 house st the end. (There were actually 14 separate spots in the Sinai desert, including hotels at the southern end of the Gulf of Aqaba)

    Anwar Sadat claimed that the decision to build Yamit, and especially Moshe Dayan talking about it, was responsible for the decision to make war in 1973. Dayan envisioned 250,000 people living there by the year 2000.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamit

    According to one source, it was this official decision to establish a large Israeli city at Yamit which, for Anwar Sadat and senior Egyptian officials, “was the straw that broke the camel’s back”, eventuating in the loss of hopes for a peace agreement and the onset of the Yom Kippur War.[4] Avi Shlaim argues however that the Arab decision to go to war preceded the Galilee Document’s publication. Nonetheless, Dayan made public remarks about his intention to build a deep-water port at Yamit, cutting Egypt off from the Gaza Strip and Sadat is on record as saying: “Every word spoken about Yamit is a knife pointing at me personally and at my self-respect.”

    The Gaza Strip had never been incorporated into Egypt and Anwar Sadat refused to take it back when it was later offered to him by Menachem Begin.

    The settlement did not prevent the turning over of Yamit, and Yamit was evacuated in 1982 (not without a little trouble mostly by people who came there specfically for that purpose) and all but one of the buildings bulldozed. Some of the people there relocated to Gaza Strip, which had about 8,000 Jews there at the time the Jews were removed by the Israeli government in 2005 (because it wouldn’t be safe for them to stay.)

    With regard to the Sinai:

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-yamit-evacuation

    After Yamit had been completely evacuated, the army demolished most of its buildings along with buildings in the thirteen other Sinai settlements. They did manage to save many houses, bomb shelters, and fruit trees that had been a source of income for the Yamit settlers. Any buildings that were salvaged were transferred inside the new Israeli border.

    Neot Sinai was the only settlement left intact; it was sold to Egypt.

    The evacuation from Gaza was a fiasco. The people there were given hope until the last minute by some people that it could be avoided and so some were unprepared. It certainly had the effect of making a repeat of this, on a larger scale, unthinkable for Israel, if it wasn’t unthinkable before.

    Unlike with Yamit, not all buildings in Gaza were demolished, but they were later quickly destroyed by the enemies of Israel, who didn’t want there to be any hesitation about destroying things in Israel because they might think that they might one day inherit it or benefit from it. (The Palestinian leadership gave other reasons for wanting to see the buildings destroyed – it was better to have multi-family housing and this would create construction jobs.)

    Synagogues (on religious grounds) were left standing, (an empty synagogue building was also left standing in Yamit) as were greenhouses, which some hoped would be a precedent and promote peace. But the terrorist groups didn’t want anyone in Gaza to think they could benefit from the presence of Israel. Except themselves maybe.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  53. They don;t believe in de-militerization or Israel maintaining bases there as part of a peace agreement, because without settlements the bases wouldn’t stay, They don’t believe that any of the internationally proposed frameworks are any kind of a “solution.” They don’t believe that the problem is caused by the territories. The Arabs who are hostile want to get rid of Israel, period.

    They believe, to the extent they think about it, that Arab political culture is sick, sick, sick and there is no partner on the other side. At least, at first, they should stop promoting hatred and vilification of Israel and honoring and compensating murderers and their families.

    All this about the settlements being good or bad is in the past. They are there now and too many Israelis live there now. The “obstacle to peace” is opposition to the settlements and wanting to get rid of them. Those who want two states (which is actually a solution to the wrong problem) want to incorporate the major settlement blocs into Israel, and perhaps give in exchange an equivalent number of square miles.

    And this is different from Apartheid how?

    I’m only 49.7% serious.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  54. And this is different from Apartheid how?

    The creation of separate states (Bantustans) was only part of apartheid. Apartheid also did not accord equality to citizens of South Africa.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  55. President Plagiarist claims ‘credit’ for ‘brokering’ ceasefire at Moon presser then quickly back tracks. Pledges to rebuild Gaza homes destroyed by U.S. weapons fired by Israel.

    WTF: Philadelphia, Detroit and Newark were unavailable for comment.

    Strictly a rotary phone, SX-70, pet rock and Betamax man. How sad for America that churlish, selfish and bitter conservatives, deservedly ex-communicated from the GOP, backed this boob over their own party’s nominee.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  56. How sad for America that churlish, selfish and bitter conservatives, deservedly ex-communicated from the GOP, backed this boob over their own party’s nominee.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 5/21/2021 @ 3:27 pm

    Ex-communication can have that effect.

    norcal (84cdee)

  57. @58.

    “…the Catholic Church does not regard excommunication as a punishment, strictly speaking, but as a corrective measure.” source, wikianyexcuse.wrapknucklswitharuler.org

    Welcome to 1538; the Age of Alchemy. Or maybe 1964– when you tried to turn Pb into AuH2O.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)


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