Patterico's Pontifications

5/7/2021

Republicans Can’t Move Forward As Viable Entity Without An Accounting For “The Big Lie” and The Big Liar

Filed under: General — Dana @ 9:01 am



[guest post by Dana]

As the Republican Party is embroiled in a battle for its soul, the issue continues to be whether the Party needs Trump and his corruption (because it’s a package deal) to move forward or whether the Party needs to make a clean break from him. The first option includes sacrificing integrity and embracing Trump’s big, fat election lie. The latter includes doing a Cheney and rejecting his ongoing lies about the election. To recognize and acknowledge these realities is not simply relitigating the past, as many Trump-supporting leaders would have us believe. If the Party wants to collectively move forward as any sort of united entity that values loyalty to the Constitution, these events cannot be dismissed or glossed over. Moving forward toward viability requires a full accounting of past sins. Restoration cannot and will not happen without taking that vital step. And yet, while Trump is firmly rooted in pushing a reprehensible and destructive lie about the election, his strategy could easily backfire and result in unexpected and unwanted outcomes for the Republican Party. Members who face re-election and have pledged their loyalty to the Party’s kingpin might want to take note:

Veteran GOP pollster Frank Luntz warned that former President Trump’s repeated assertions that the 2020 presidential election was rigged against him could hurt Republican efforts to take back the House in 2022.

Luntz noted in an interview on the New York Times podcast “Sway” released Thursday that “more than two-thirds of Republicans believe that the election was stolen,” warning that a widespread and unproven belief that there was rampant fraud last November could turn Republicans off from voting in the midterm elections.

What Donald Trump is saying is actually telling people it’s not worth it to vote. Donald Trump single-handedly may cause people not to vote. And he may be the greatest tool in the Democrats’ arsenal to keep control of the House and Senate in 2022,” Luntz said.

It occurs to me that (another) across-the-board defeat precisely because of Trump’s involvement may be what it takes to bring the Republican Party to its knees. Maybe then there would be a collective acknowledgment that getting into bed with a bad actor and sacrificing principles to do so was a very bad decision.

There can be no doubt that for a shocking number of Republicans in Congress who are laser-focused on their own political futures, currying favor with Trump supersedes all else. He is the Party’s kingpin and they have made a shrewd political calculation. There are also a shocking number of true believers within the ranks. Moreover, as we can see by Trump’s recent attacks on Rep. Liz Cheney, and the push by fellow-members to oust her for speaking the truth, in today’s Republican Party there is no political reward for holding onto your ethics and honoring your sworn loyalty to the Constitution. This needs to change if the Party wants to regain its stature and value as a political party.

Here is Sen. Linsdsey Graham clearly spelling out the essential nub of the battle:

Can we move forward without President Trump? The answer is no. I’ve always liked Liz Cheney but she’s made a determination that the Republican Party can’t grow with President Trump. I’ve determined we can’t grow without him.

Yet more reassurance that leaving the Republican Party was a necessary and healthy decision for me to make.

–Dana

99 Responses to “Republicans Can’t Move Forward As Viable Entity Without An Accounting For “The Big Lie” and The Big Liar”

  1. Good morning.

    Dana (fd537d)

  2. They want to hitch their wagon to a “populist” who just lost by 8 million votes, and who came out 3 million votes behind the second most-hated politician in America four years before…

    Sounds like a plan!

    Dave (1bb933)

  3. It occurs to me that an across-the-board defeat precisely because of Trump’s involvement may be what it takes to bring the Republican Party to its knees. Maybe then there would be a collective acknowledgment that getting into bed with a bad actor and sacrificing principles to do so was a very bad decision.

    What were the Georgia Senate runoffs if not precisely an example of that? And Trump and his fans just cheerfully rewrite history. As long as he lives, this is how it’s going to be.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  4. Patterico, I know 2 people that don’t care about politics, rarely vote, and this year walked into the polls, voted for Biden, and turned the ballot in without selecting any other candidate.

    Time123 (89dfb2)

  5. what lessons did we learn from the mother of all across-the-board defeats in 2008?

    listen to cheney i guess

    JF (e1156d)

  6. What were the Georgia Senate runoffs if not precisely an example of that? And Trump and his fans just cheerfully rewrite history. As long as he lives, this is how it’s going to be.

    Patterico (e349ce) — 5/7/2021 @ 9:26 am

    I should have clarified “another election defeat” (and will do so in the post). With that, however, I refuse to become so cynical as to believe that Trump must die before Republicans come to their senses. My hope is that the Kinzingers, Cheneys, Romneys, Mejeirs, and other reasonable voices in the Party make inroads by influencing fellow members, thus leading to a restoration of the Party. That’s my hope anyway. Perhaps it won’t happen, and a third party will be birthed instead.

    Dana (fd537d)

  7. I usually agree with French (I dare someone to refrain from calling him “irrelevant”), and his latest is no exception. Trump is a problem, but so are the grassroots who remain enamored. The only “cure” that I see are embarrassing election losses in 2022 and 2024 for the ones who bent the knee to Trump.
    To me, the line could not be brighter: Do Republicans support facts, science, due process, the rule of law, the Constitution, limited government, free markets, fiscal responsibility and a non-xenophobic foreign policy, or do they support the con man and his minions.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1)

  8. Still, until there is another center-right party, if you oppose left-wing government you have little choice. The “let it get really bad and they’ll come to their senses” plan has a downside.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. There has never been a better time politically, nor a better time technologically, to create an alternative center-right party that discards some of the greasy build-up that the GOP accumulated (the problems are not all Trump or he would not have shattered the party this way).

    These principled people like Romney and Cheney need to walk away and plant the seed of a new party. Put the GOP to the test — stand with Trump and lose (and perhaps lose everything) or reject him and heal the GOP.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. The only “cure” that I see are embarrassing election losses in 2022 and 2024 for the ones who bent the knee to Trump.

    I don’t think that they are “embarrassing” will do the trick. I think it’s when a substantial lack of power is felt, then it will matter. But it will take losing more elections.

    Dana (fd537d)

  11. The only “cure” that I see are embarrassing election losses in 2022 and 2024 for the ones who bent the knee to Trump.

    Sadly, though, this means a one-party socialist state like California. Do you think they won’t lock themselves in like they did 1933-1994?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  12. “what lessons did we learn from the mother of all across-the-board defeats in 2008?”

    Avoid war fatigue and a financial meltdown when the GOP is “in charge”. Still, the Obamacare over-reach then re-calibrated things back pretty quickly. This is the problem. Too many Republicans have been persuaded that conventional Republicanism or Conservatism is passe….and can no longer win elections….we now supposedly need hyper-isolationism….and a thugocracy to save us from Leftists. What sort of vision does a Trump-apologist like JF propose? Is more Trump really how the GOP grows…and how the GOP gets things done? It seems like the GOP is most interested in Trump-purity at the moment….and it hasn’t demonstrated an ability to win elections, produce legislation, or inspire persuadable people. It’s like the GOP is trapped in a big bubble….

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  13. Great column by Peggy Noonan today: Liz Cheney Confronts a House of Cowards

    The Republicans like to call themselves a big tent. Ms. Cheney is in that tent, a woman who isn’t in the boys club and yet has been respected by the boys. If they throw her out she looks like Churchill, and they look like little men with umbrellas. It will make the party look stupid and weak, as if it can’t tolerate dissent. Republicans like to call for diversity of thought on campuses. What about in the Republican Conference? Giving her the boot places Mr. Trump at the center of things, and is a gift to President Biden, taking all the heat off his programs and policies.

    (Emphasis mine)

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  14. “what lessons did we learn from the mother of all across-the-board defeats in 2008?”

    Romney would have won handily in 2008, since he was a well-respected financial guy at a time when we needed one. McCain couldn’t balance a checkbook and his only financial experience was in fronting for a crooked S&L.

    So, “don’t run boobs for high office”? Something we continued to do in 2016 and 2020.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  15. I have long expressed the conviction that I am not ready for a third party. If the present Republican Party is brought to its knees, mortally broken in two, then I would consider a third party effort to replace the torn-asunder Republican pieces.

    The real challenge is finding someone who will unite the salvageable parts of the electorate that will form the backbone (at last, a backbone!) of a new party. The Phoenix must, first, fall in ashes before being reborn.

    Those who rebelliously cried “let it burn!” will finally get their wish. If the worst elements of the party perish, well then, I am not so sure that is a bad thing. But the price will be high, very high.

    felipe (484255)

  16. Do Republicans support facts, science, due process, the rule of law, the Constitution, limited government, free markets, fiscal responsibility and a non-xenophobic foreign policy…

    Never have.

    You mean “conservatives.” That tail, which on longer wags the dog, has a history of denying science, [from water fluoridation to climate change] opposed stem cell research and even sending humans to the moon [Barry Goldwater, oh you kid]; made mockery of the laughable “rule of Law” [Watergate, Iran-Contra, etc.,] stretched at the fabric of the Constitution like Silly Putty [Mitch McConnell 101] have actually expanded government, turned America from a creditor to a debtor nation [Reaganomics!] and routinely used ‘regime change’ expending blood an treasure as a mask to advance corporate interests as a ‘foreign policy.’ It’s 2021: in any language, French is irrelevant.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  17. If they throw her out she looks like Churchill, and they look like little men with umbrellas.

    Actually, Kevin, she looks like her father in drag.

    A Darth by any other name is still a Vader.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  18. Romney would have won handily in 2008, since he was a well-respected financial guy at a time when we needed one.

    Maybe Romney plus a VP who could beat generic black, which would have necessitated Gingrich, Giuliani or generic Southern senator. Otherwise, it probably would have resembled the 2012 outcome which really was decided by young blacks in swing states doubling down on a poor choice 4 years earlier (fill in that italicized with something else and you have the Trump 2020-21 diehard voter).

    urbanleftbehind (6d7326)

  19. DCSCA,

    It’s all good so long as this real world Vader’s daughter doesnt try to recreate a some scenes in from the first hour of Return of the Jedi.

    urbanleftbehind (6d7326)

  20. Marjorie Taylor Greene Insists Capitol Rioters Weren’t Trump Supporters

    During a town hall in Rockmart, Georgia held on Wednesday, Greene, a fervent Trump ally, spoke against maligning the former president’s supporters in the aftermath of January 6.

    Green claimed—without providing evidence—that most of the rioters arrested for their role in the attack did not vote during the 2020 presidential election.

    “Trump supporters are not domestic terrorists,” Greene told an audience of supporters. “That’s a lie.”
    ………
    “And most of the people that they have arrested that did the damage and really were the ones doing it didn’t really vote,” she said.

    “From what I understand, most of them didn’t even vote.

    “So I wouldn’t call them Trump supporters, I wouldn’t call them any supporters, they didn’t vote. What they were is they were anti-government.”

    The congresswoman also explained her position among a dozen GOP House members who voted against a resolution awarding Capitol police for their actions during the attack.

    “So they awarded the Capitol Police, recently, for their work on January 6,” said Greene, adding she “had a hard time with not voting for it.”

    “The language in that bill, number one, declared every single person at the Capitol there that day on January 6 an ‘insurrectionist,'” she said. “And I do not believe that that was insurrection. I’m not gonna label people that way, okay?
    ……..
    During Wednesday’s town hall, Greene said she “very happily” objected to Biden’s Electoral College win in six states and “would do it again over and over.”
    >>>>>>>>>

    Rip Murdock (41bc87)

  21. @12 trump apologist lol

    i’m not Trump obsessed, for or against, and will support biden and harris’s most viable opponent whether it’s trump or romney or cheney or whoever

    my vision is not to lose more elections, as opposed to the vision expressed here

    sorry if that disappoints you, but that doesn’t make me the apologist you wish i was

    JF (e1156d)

  22. My hope is that the Kinzingers, Cheneys, Romneys, Mejeirs, and other reasonable voices in the Party make inroads by influencing fellow members, thus leading to a restoration of the Party.

    It has been restored; the modern ideological conservative movement, like communism, contained. Thank you, Donald Trump.

    Neocons are dead; the Project for the New AmericCentury [co-founded by hard rightie Bill Kristol, a Cheney ally BTW] permanently shelved.

    The ‘Kinzingers, Cheneys, Romneys, Mejeirs’ have about as much relevance to the GOP in 2021 as Rockefeller attempted to exercise to avoid the landslide loss in 1964. What goes around eventually comes around.

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  23. I believe the solution is somewhere between the Liz Cheney and Ted Cruz approaches.

    Something more along the lines of Mitch McConnell and Nikki Haley. They know Trump is ridiculous, but they want a chance to be in a position to accomplish good things, and they are aware that if they hop aboard the USS Purity they will end up at the bottom of the ocean.

    Expecting all the Trump supporters to suddenly come to their senses is unrealistic. Losing elections won’t do it, either. Trumpism has a pernicious hold on peoples’ hearts and minds. Insisting on a denunciation of Trump before voting for a Republican is like saying “olé” to a leftist bull.

    It’s better to remain neutral and try to find common ground on policy. Winning coalitions often include crazy people, both on the left and right. The trick is to get the crazy vote without giving them what they want. Yes, this is cynical, but that’s the world we live in.

    norcal (01e272)

  24. Is more Trump really how the GOP grows…and how the GOP gets things done?

    Growth brings change; something conservatives religiously resist.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  25. the scolding of 74 million voters will continue until party enthusiasm returns

    JF (e1156d)

  26. The trick is to get the crazy vote without giving them what they want. Yes, this is cynical, but that’s the world we live in.

    Thst’s just it: they’re fed up with being tricked by the Royalists.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  27. @13. 2021 Peggy Noonan [who was once a street reporter for CBS News in 1980 BTW] is irrelevant.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  28. norcal (01e272) — 5/7/2021 @ 11:39 am

    What an excellent comment, norcal. I’d like to hear more of your thoughts.

    felipe (484255)

  29. What we’re seeing is a Republican party that’s congealing around the proposition that the only important principle to be considered is how to regain power, mostly for the purpose of punishing Trump’s enemies.

    Stefanik is going to replace Cheney because Stefanik is proving a completely amoral suck up. Cheney is being ousted because she is too loudly asking Republicans to adhere to democratic principles and the rule of law.

    Trump keeps braying that the election was stolen, and people like Graham refuse to question him.

    Across America Republican led legislatures are figuring out means of trimming the electorate so that it favors Republicans. But more to the point, people like Stefanik and Trump are inculcating the idea that even if vote totals show a Democratic victory, that must have been accomplished by corruption and cheating and fraud and therefore can rightfully be ignored by state legislatures.

    I think Jon Chait has the right of it, when he discusses this in context of the book, How Democracies Die. The author’s conclusion in that book is that democracies die when elites ideologically allied with dictators or authoritarian leaders choose their ideology over their allegiance to democracy:

    The primary argument in How Democracies Die, by Daniel Ziblatt and Steven Levitsky, is that the survival of a democratic regime against an authoritarian threat usually comes down to choices made by ideological allies of the authoritarian side. They can decide either to support an authoritarian party or leader that advances their policy agenda, or break from their natural allies and defend the system. According to their historical study of threats against democratic regimes, when the authoritarian candidate’s allies defect and join with their natural ideological opponents to save the system, democracies survive.

    When they stay loyal to their normal partners, on the other hand, democracy perishes. (The term Ziblatt and Levitsky borrow for this fateful latter decision is “ideological collusion” — choosing to win by subverting democracy rather than saving the system by joining with their ideological opponents.)

    What we’re seeing in the Republican party is that rather than do anything that might help Biden the elites are willing to allow Trump to continue to claim the election was stolen and make that a fundamental plank of the party. And so they’re willing to let democracy die rather than lose a political fight.

    Victor (4959fb)

  30. If you want to read Chait’s own words on the subject, here’s his column:

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/liz-cheney-save-democracy-republican-trump-coup-insurrection-purge.html

    Victor (4959fb)

  31. These constant Nazi references are beyond hyperbolic and just aid the leftist takeover of our nation.

    NJRob (24d956)

  32. . If the Party wants to collectively move forward as any sort of united entity that values loyalty to the Constitution, these events cannot be dismissed or glossed over.

    But they’re going to try.

    The only thing is, Trump is not going to let them gloss over it.

    And the thing is, neither the majority of the donors nor of the voters care enough to use subscribing to the false claims as a litmus test – there’s more who would make renouncing it as a litmus test. But mst of the politicians are too afraid to jump into the water.

    Elise Stefanik, by the way, was never a down the line Trump or party person (she opposed his “Moslem ban” and voted against the 2017 tax cut because of its SALT provisions) until she got involved in defending him against the first impeachment. She apparently liked the way it helped her career.

    It involves sacrificing integrity and loyalty to the constitution (rejecting Electoral votes does) but not what we would normally call corruption. (in terms of money)

    mviles

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  33. Can we move forward without President Trump? The answer is no. I’ve always liked Liz Cheney but she’s made a determination that the Republican Party can’t grow with President Trump. I’ve determined we can’t grow without him.

    Does Lindsey Graham truly believe this?

    Even if the reason is he doesn’t want the Republican Party splitting over Trump?

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  34. Rep. Adam Kinzinger:

    Kinzinger says maybe 5 members of his conference actually believe Trump’s lie the election was stolen. Others he said just keep their heads down and don’t want to say anything. “What they are saying is … I don’t have the courage or strength to swing the party.”

    Welp, they better find the strength and courage to make a stand. If not now, when?

    Dana (fd537d)

  35. 3. Patterico (e349ce) — 5/7/2021 @ 9:26 am

    What were the Georgia Senate runoffs if not precisely an example of that? And Trump and his fans just cheerfully rewrite history. As long as he lives, this is how it’s going to be.

    A big enough loss and he won’t be able to.

    It wasn’t an across-the-board defeat.

    You might want to make an exception for the U.S. Senate in 2022.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  36. 34. Dana (fd537d) — 5/7/2021 @ 1:43 pm

    If not now, when?

    When Trump blunders, or, if, for some other reason, momentum gathers to disengage from Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  37. The republican party has a grass root problem. David french What he meant. The party base no longer follows its intellectual elites like me. They need to get away from populism and return to being led by the nose by intellectual economic libertarian free trade conservatives like me and my wealthy donor class owners. Free trade more immigration and end less wars is what is good for capitalism!

    asset (018534)

  38. 29. Victor (4959fb) — 5/7/2021 @ 1:34 pm

    What we’re seeing in the Republican party is that rather than do anything that might help Biden the elites are willing to allow Trump to continue to claim the election was stolen and make that a fundamental plank of the party.

    No, what we;re seeing is that they’re willing to let the Republican Party die without being succeeded with something else. They won’t capture a majority with that posture. If they want another 1964 LBJ landslide, go ahead with that and Trump as the candidate.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  39. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 5/7/2021 @ 11:49 am

    The trick is to get the crazy vote without giving them what they want.

    That could work, but the Democrats will get the anti-crazy vote.

    Unless they can convince the general public that the Democratic candidates are more seriously crazy. But that will be a hard sell.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  40. 9. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 5/7/2021 @ 10:26 am

    These principled people like Romney and Cheney need to walk away and plant the seed of a new party.

    The problem with that is that it could take two successive election, or three, to do it.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  41. The trick is to get the crazy vote without giving them what they want

    was norcal @23.

    That;s what the Republican Party did in the south in the 1970s with all the white supremacists.

    But the problem here is Trump’s assault on election integrity. Which will have no substantial effect the first few elections.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  42. @15

    I have long expressed the conviction that I am not ready for a third party. If the present Republican Party is brought to its knees, mortally broken in two, then I would consider a third party effort to replace the torn-asunder Republican pieces.

    The real challenge is finding someone who will unite the salvageable parts of the electorate that will form the backbone (at last, a backbone!) of a new party. The Phoenix must, first, fall in ashes before being reborn.

    Those who rebelliously cried “let it burn!” will finally get their wish. If the worst elements of the party perish, well then, I am not so sure that is a bad thing. But the price will be high, very high.

    felipe (484255) — 5/7/2021 @ 11:11 am

    It’s a bad thing and I’ll tell you why.

    This is about not being able to deal with differing opinions within your own party.

    This is about a purity test.

    The standard ought to be that we should try to reconcile with the folks who believes in “The Big Lie”. It’s OKAY to tell your representative and their supporters that they are WRONG to believe in the “The Big Lie”.

    This is absolutely nothing wrong in taking that position.

    There is nothing wrong with the desire to create a movement to convince, even primary, politicians that we need to move on from “The Big Lie”. Cheney should’ve stepped down from her leadership position just to make this point.

    But if you’re a republican, conservative or whatever ‘center-right’ group you find yourself in… unilaterally disengaging yourself from the GOP party is the absolute worst thing you can do. There’s no guarantee that this “neo-GOP” party would look like anything you think it ought to be right now. I think you’re better off staying within the party, and fighting for the things that you’d want.

    IN the meantime, if you do choose to disengage, you’re making the Democratic party more powerful, a party beholden to the extreme wing of the party. You’re going to see a better chance of seeing policies passing such as:
    HR1
    PROact
    Green New Deal
    judiciary reimaged by liberals

    That would be an awful cost for “burning down the GOP party to exorcise Trumpism”. Just look how unsuccessful GOP has been in repealing Obamacare.

    To me, the way to reconcile those believing “The Big Lie” is to meet them halfway. Don’t accept the premise that the election was stolen and let them know that. But, agree to the premise that there WERE problems with how the elections was conducted and work together to advocate for changes to elections laws that adds credence to the process. You’ll get a lot more engagement with these groups taking this tact, than try to push them out of the party.

    Agree to disagree on some things, but work together on common interests to move the party forward.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  43. What we’re seeing is a Republican party that’s congealing around the proposition that the only important principle to be considered is how to regain power, mostly for the purpose of punishing Trump’s enemies.

    My first reaction was to say “This is projection” But on second thought, “it is vomitus.”

    felipe (484255)

  44. Good, Sammy, Get it out of your system!

    felipe (484255)

  45. @38 The elites are anti trumpers and have been purged from authority. Only political hacks like mcconnel and mccarthy clinging to power are left.

    asset (018534)

  46. This is about a purity test.

    whembly (ae0eb5) — 5/7/2021 @ 2:12 pm

    Another good comment! Thank you, Whembly. a reminder:

    They know Trump is ridiculous, but they want a chance to be in a position to accomplish good things, and they are aware that if they hop aboard the USS Purity they will end up at the bottom of the ocean. – norcal (01e272) — 5/7/2021 @ 11:39 am

    felipe (484255)

  47. Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 5/7/2021 @ 1:54 pm

    that is a persuasive comment, Sammy. well said.

    felipe (484255)

  48. I love how non-Republicans like asset and DCSCA continue to believe that they can define the Republican Party….by shear repetitive pronouncement. In the end, Trump lost the House, Senate, and the Presidency…and wants to add more liabilities like Marjorie Taylor Greene into the equation….if you like winning and sanity…this is not the path

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  49. Maybe then there would be a collective acknowledgment that getting into bed with a bad actor and sacrificing principles to do so was a very bad decision.

    Yet you would be doing exactly what you criticize. You’d be getting into bed with AOC and the radical Democrats, sacrificing all your other principles to do so. Perhaps an even worse decision, as Trump is temporary but the last time the Democrats had such total control they stayed in power for 60 years.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  50. Patterico, I know 2 people that don’t care about politics, rarely vote, and this year walked into the polls, voted for Biden, and turned the ballot in without selecting any other candidate.

    I would cite this as an example of low-information voting myself.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  51. The elites are anti trumper

    There are people far more elite than I am (and probably most of the people who comment here) who are ardent pro-Trumpers. Many of them, I believe, have benefited in some way from taking that stance — either through Trump policy or through the career boost they’ve gotten by endorsing and amplifying the hero-worship they saw growing among the rank-and-file. There are also some wealthy people who had never been big political donors before but spent large sums promoting Trump — and some of them got targeted benefits from the administration.

    It’s dismaying to me that a fair number of conservative opinion leaders seem to be as worshipful of Trump as the rank and file are. Others might be loath to criticize or contradict him for more pragmatic reasons. If more of them had the courage to be honest, the rank-and-file Trumpers would have less reason to believe that all “patriots” are pro-Trump and that anyone who is not must be a traitor or a grifter.

    Radegunda (d5730b)

  52. Those who rebelliously cried “let it burn!” will finally get their wish

    They were largely Trump supporters.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  53. people like Stefanik and Trump are inculcating the idea that even if vote totals show a Democratic victory, that must have been accomplished by corruption and cheating and fraud and therefore can rightfully be ignored by state legislatures.

    And the GOP at various levels is pushing out officials who wouldn’t play along with Trump’s demand to hand him the election. Is it simply punitive — or preparatory?

    Radegunda (d5730b)

  54. Marjorie Taylor Greene

    Congresswoman from the former Cherokee lands. Nothing much has changed since 1835 there, except far fewer blacks since 1865.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  55. Yes, this is cynical, but that’s the world we live in.

    No, we should stand on principle, even if it kills you!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  56. Those who rebelliously cried “let it burn!” will finally get their wish
    They were largely Trump supporters.

    “Blow the whole thing up!” and “Burn the place to the ground!” were Trumpist battle cries in 2015-16. They wanted to destroy the whole “GOPe” and replace it with a Trump-centric party. Then, anyone who didn’t want the party to be defined around the person of Donald Trump came to be called a “RINO.” It isn’t fundamentally about policy, as the Cheney vs. Stefanik drama illustrates. It’s simply the longing for a hero who hates the same people the Trumpers do — though not for the same reasons.

    As long as the great majority of Republicans believe that loyalty to Trump takes precedence over policy concerns, the party will be seriously compromised as a policy force.

    Radegunda (d5730b)

  57. She’s more of a Blue Dog Democrat whose own sister wouldn’t vote for her either.

    She should be honest enough to run for a (D) house seat from Northern Virginia and let someone who represents the 70% of Wyoming voters that chose Trump run for the Wyoming seat.

    The GOP can’t just cut ties with Trump who got 74M votes, over Cheney who won’t win her primary in 2022. Trump was so popular in Wyoming he drew more votes than Cheney in 2016 and 2020

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  58. They were largely Trump supporters.

    Yes, radegunda, we all know. But maybe there are slow readers here, although I have no idea whom to name…

    felipe (484255)

  59. Sadly, though, this means a one-party socialist state like California.

    I doubt it, Kevin, because the pendulum in national politics has always swung back.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1)

  60. Paul Montagu (26e0d1) — 5/7/2021 @ 3:36 pm

    I often find myself agreeing with Kevin M, but I appreciate the long-view of your take, Paul. It is, in the end, the more reliable.

    felipe (484255)

  61. Radegunda, I apologize for typing “radegunda” It was not meant as a slight! I am too used to not capitalizing my own name. If anything, I consider you my equal.

    felipe (484255)

  62. She’s more of a Blue Dog Democrat whose own sister wouldn’t vote for her either.

    She should be honest enough to run for a (D) house seat from Northern Virginia and let someone who represents the 70% of Wyoming voters that chose Trump run for the Wyoming seat.

    Cheney voted with Trump on policy 93 percent of the time. (Which “Blue Dog Democrats” have that kind of voting record?) Stefanik did so 77.7 percent of the time.
    The Republicans who want Cheney ousted from leadership (and from Congress) and would prefer Stefanik in her place do not care about any policy agenda. They care about feeding Trump’s ego and perpetuating the “rigged election” myth.

    Trumpers should be honest enough to admit it. But they’re not.

    Radegunda (d5730b)

  63. felipe — I took no offense whatsoever. I hardly even noticed. (My ego may be delicate, but not quite that delicate.)

    Radegunda (d5730b)

  64. Radegunda (d5730b) — 5/7/2021 @ 4:06 pm

    Thanks! [releases breath]

    felipe (484255)

  65. Victor,

    Please link to your ritual denunciation of Stacey Abrams.

    Thanks.

    NJRob (c3a8ed)

  66. @48.I love how non-Republicans like asset and DCSCA continue to believe that they can define the Republican Party….

    Actually, AJ, the fella who controls the GOP already has:

    “This is called the Republican Party, it’s not called the Conservative Party.” – Donald Trump

    Get use to that view forward from the tail that no longer wags the dog for the next 40 years. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  67. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 5/7/2021 @ 4:20 pm

    I wouldn’t say Trump controls the R party, but he certainly lives, rent-free, in many Republican’s minds!

    felipe (484255)

  68. These principled people like Romney and Cheney need to walk away and plant the seed of a new party.

    That’s sorta how the Mormon cult and Vader’s Dark Side were spawned. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  69. Sadly, though, this means a one-party socialist state like California.

    OTOH, capitalism seems alive and well in the Golden State-especially for those hard pressed, subsidized, down and out oil companies:

    Shell gas today, outside San Diego: Reg. $5/gal; hi-test:$5.10/gal; premium: $5.20/gal. Ahhhh, the sweet smell of Reaganomics as citizens get pumped dry… No smoking!

    What’s going to break the back of one party rule in CA is the increasing irritation of just existing and living day-to-day life. People- and businesses- will either just leave, or jump at a change. It was something as basic as the big jump in DMV fees that fueled the Davis recall resulting in Schwarzenegger. Don’t rule Jenner out.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  70. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 5/7/2021 @ 4:40 pm

    Serious question, DCSCA!

    If I give a Homeless man a dollar, and he says “thank you,” is it virtue signaling to say “you’re welcome!”?

    felipe (484255)

  71. In the end, Trump lost the House, Senate, and the Presidency…

    That may be a short-sighted metric:

    He still did better than Barry Goldwater in ’64; which left the GOP with less than 40% of the presidential vote and less than a third of the seats in the House and Senate [-source, wikirejects.org]. And Barry never held the POTUS gig to lose at all– and set up Reagan. Your party is changing. So it’s either get aboard or get left behind in the dust. And if you choose to the desert in defiance, be sure you buy a compass.

    “For the loser now will be later to win; For the times they are a-changin’…” – Bob Dylan

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  72. #62
    That is a great statistic.

    Too bad for her that within that 7% there were somethings that were really important to people in Wyoming.
    Withdrawing from the endless war in Afghanistan and voting for impeachment.
    Your job as a voice of common sense and reason is to go nevertrumpsplain it to the people of Wyoming… just don’t make the mistake of thinking they are dumb to disagree with you.

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  73. #70
    I don’t know about virtue signalling, but saying “you are welcome” in response to another persons “thank you” completes a respectful American social transaction.

    “No problema bro” is sorta Laguna Beach meets San Dimas

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  74. As long as the great majority of Republicans believe that loyalty to Trump takes precedence over policy concerns, the party will be seriously compromised as a policy force.

    No, it’s “as long as the party is driven by hatred and revenge, it will cease to matter what it’s policy is.

    But it does NOT cease to matter that the Democrat’s policy is, and they will happily eat all our lunches in the meantime. Which is why I continue to suggest abandoning the fight for the dying GOP and start a new party and LET them die. Right now we are trying to talk lemmings away from the cliff, and they continue to march to their deaths.

    The only way forward is to surrender and start over.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  75. All the Democrats have to do is be saner than the Republicans, and they win. Give people another choice.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  76. Liz Cheney, for example, should look at her chances of winning the GOP nomination. If she can squeak though with a plurality, fine, but if it’s iffy she should run as an independent or form a new party (depending on MT rules). Then she can run a aginst a crazy Trumpie and a token Democrat. If she wins that it will tell the party more than a mere defeat.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  77. Related: AZ Maricopa County recount moves forward after Republicans agree to much better rules.

    The Arizona Democratic Party and other critics of the state Senate’s audit of Maricopa County election resultsreached a settlement Wednesday in a lawsuit with top Republican legislators, guaranteeing certain measures for ballot security and voter privacy as well as access for observers and reporters to witness the process.

    Howefver, disagreements remain.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  78. Montana’s new party rules made a bit easier:

    On April 29, Montana Governor Greg Gianforte signed SB 350, which removes some restrictions on petitions for party recognition that were imposed by Montana state courts in 2018 and again in 2020. The new law says that people who want to withdraw their signature on a petition to recognize a new party must do so by the petition deadline. It clarifies that names of signers need not be an exact match with that voter’s registration name. And it says that the petition for a new party may be submitted by any individual, rather than someone who can prove he or she is an officer of the new party.

    https://ballot-access.org/2021/05/06/montana-governor-signs-bill-removing-some-restrictions-for-petition-for-minor-party-recognition/

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  79. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 5/7/2021 @ 7:04 pm:

    Since Cheney represents Wyoming, why would Montana rules apply?

    Rip Murdock (41bc87)

  80. Republicans like me can’t move forward until Bill Barr does some ‘splaining.
    I clearly recall the anger from conservatives (I was one of them) when Obama tapped James Rosen’s records as a suspected co-conspirator, suspected of the apparent crime of reporting on the Obama administration. It just goes to show (again) that Trump has behaved more like a Democrat than a conservative Republican during his one term.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1)

  81. Ted Cruz said his election objections weren’t about blocking Biden. Then someone asked about it.

    A woman wearing a camouflage hat approached Cruz and confronted him about the election results, as captured in video posted by activist Lauren Windsor. […]

    “Wondering why you didn’t do more to fight for President Trump on Jan. 6,” she says to Cruz.

    “Well,” he responds, “I led the objection but the Senate voted it down.”

    “But you could have done more,” she continues. “I mean, we all know that Joe Biden didn’t win this election. I know in my heart of hearts that Joe Biden did not win this election.”

    “I led the fight,” Cruz insists. “At the end of the day, you’ve got to have the votes on the floor of the Senate.”

    Senator, this is not the claim you made on Jan. 6. On that day, you were very clear that you were not objecting to Biden’s election but, instead, hoping to spend more time addressing the concerns of voters. You were very clear that you were not simply trying to enact the will of Trump’s supporters by introducing a barrier to the counting of electoral votes. You said then that your desired outcome was solely to assuage the unfounded concerns of people like that woman in Virginia.

    This was obviously dishonest at the time, but it was still what Cruz presented as his argument.

    Cruz was one of the last speakers before the Senate chamber was evacuated of legislators and rioters swarmed in. They did more to fight for Trump on that day, exercising violence and vandalism to achieve the same outcome Cruz sought, delaying the counting of electoral votes.

    When the woman approached him on Thursday, Cruz could have objected to her false claim that Biden didn’t win. He could have clarified for her that his goal on Jan. 6 was simply to spend more time evaluating the sanctity of the vote, even though there was no reason to do so. But instead Cruz tried to leverage his actions that day in exactly the way that he’d always intended: they were his way to tell Trump voters that he’d fought on their behalf.

    Despicable.

    Dave (1bb933)

  82. Since Cheney represents Wyoming, why would Montana rules apply?

    My bad. All those states look alike to me. But the research was good!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  83. Maybe the warmonger Cheney will invade Montana, Kevin…

    Dave (1bb933)

  84. Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Soouth Dakota… all look alike, Mountains, Prarie, Sage desert and all would prefer Ms. Cheney representing Northern Virginia as a Democrat

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  85. Dick Cheney should move to Dickshooter, Idaho

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  86. Ms. Cheney representing Northern Virginia as a Democrat

    Wow, but you seem to have an odd perspective here. She was to the Right of Trump.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  87. She just would not take the Fuhrerprinzip oath.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  88. Maybe the warmonger Cheney will invade Montana, Kevin…

    After Trump completes the destruction of the USA, maybe she will.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  89. Election 2024: Trump-Green vs Octavia-Cortez-Tlaib

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  90. Cheney has a lifetime voting record rating of 0 from NARAL and a lifetime A grade from the NRA, so I’d say her prospects as a Democrat aren’t much better.

    Dave (1bb933)

  91. But she dared to question the Great Leader, and that’s all that matters!

    Dave (1bb933)

  92. Victor,

    Please link to your ritual denunciation of Stacey Abrams.

    Thanks.

    NJRob

    I am sure this is relevant to something I said or did not say, but I can’t figure out what. Could you explain, hopefully at some length?

    Victor (4959fb)

  93. NJrob

    Sorry for being dense, I just realized you think I am a hypocrite for denouncing Trump and Stefanik and large swathes of the current Republican party for claiming that the entire 2020 presidential election was stolen, based on no particular evidence, and for actively attempting to overturn that election through the courts and through violent protest, when I don’t also denounce Stacey Abrams because on the evening she conceded the governor’s race she also pointed out, accurately, that the man running against her was the Secretary of State who had supervised the culling of voters and had taken other steps to ensure his victory. And then not suing, and not attempting to take over the office but instead organizing for the next election.

    So I am a hypocrite for supporting Stacey’s specific criticisms of a particular race that appear grossly unfair, but at the same time denouncing Trump’s wild and unsupported accusations?

    I want to make sure I get this right, so if i am off here be sure to let me know.

    Victor (4959fb)

  94. I usually agree with French (I dare someone to refrain from calling him “irrelevant”), and his latest is no exception. Trump is a problem, but so are the grassroots who remain enamored. The only “cure” that I see are embarrassing election losses in 2022 and 2024 for the ones who bent the knee to Trump.

    I used to think that. Now I think they will try to steal the election, and succeed if they control the House, and if they fail to steal it they will claim fraud without basis again, further eroding the faith of half of the electorate in our processes. The only legal way out is to wait for the burgers and fries to get him.

    Patterico (d3d5c1)

  95. Did Kemp do anything illegal, Victor?

    Patterico (d3d5c1)

  96. Thank you Victor for proving my point.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  97. Important to compare Trump to what Stacy Abrams actually said in 2018:

    I acknowledge that former Secretary of State Brian Kemp will be certified as the victor in the 2018 gubernatorial election. But to watch an elected official—who claims to represent the people of this state, baldly pin his hopes for election on the suppression of the people’s democratic right to vote—has been truly appalling. So, to be clear, this is not a speech of concession. Concession means to acknowledge an action is right, true or proper. As a woman of conscience and faith, I cannot concede. But my assessment is that the law currently allows no further viable remedy.

    Now, I could certainly bring a new case to keep this one contest alive, but I don’t want to hold public office if I need to scheme my way into the post. Because the title of Governor isn’t nearly as important as our shared title. Voters.

    Because Georgia still has a decision to make about who will we be in the next election. And the one after that. And the one after that. So we have used this election and its aftermath to diagnose what has been broken in our process. Make no mistake, the former Secretary of State was deliberate and intentional in his actions. I know that eight years of systemic disenfranchisement, disinvestment and incompetence had its desired effect on the electoral process in Georgia.

    Pundits and hyper-partisans will hear my words as a rejection of the normal order. I’m supposed to say nice things and accept my fate. They will complain that I should not use this moment to recap what was done wrong or to demand a remedy. As a leader, I should be stoic in my outrage and silent in my rebuke. But stoicism is a luxury and silence is a weapon for those who would quiet the voices of the people, and I will not concede because the erosion of our democracy is not right.

    And I will pray for the success of Brian Kemp, that he will indeed be a leader for all Georgians. That he will pledge to fight for the rights of those who disagree with him – and keep his promises. That he will refuse the call of those who see how close this election was. Because we know that some propose to make voting even harder. They see voter engagement in communities of color and cry fraud or lie about the cost of democracy to justify closing more polling places. I pray he will reject this vicious and tired response – in favor of preserving what is left of our state’s reputation for equality and civil rights.

    …and in a combination of irony and karma, some of that actually seemed to happen. Though seemingly forced into it (originally, by sticking with his own choice of appointed Senator versus accepting Trump’s choice) Kemp mostly did the right thing in defense of Georgia’s 2020 updated and rationalized (mostly) presidential election voting processes.

    Who’d a thunk it? Of course, he then had to apologize and reverse course for future elections, but perhaps not to the full extant that would have been likely for the pre-2020 Kemp. Having learned the further lessons of his state’s 2021 Senate run-off, he’s walking a tightrope between convincing his state’s Trumpists to vote for him (by returning to full Trumpism), and maintaining a modicum of reality by not going at least Marjorie Taylor Greene–lite.

    Don’t know who will win. By her actions, Stacy Abrams has done far more to set up a successful campaign than Kemp (or that matter especially, Trump—imagine where Trump would be now if he’d said what Abrahms did instead of encouraging insurrection).

    Purple Martin (bce78a)

  98. These constant Nazi references are beyond hyperbolic and just aid the leftist takeover of our nation.

    NJRob (24d956) — 5/7/2021 @ 1:36 pm

    Later in the same thread:

    These are the left’s modern day brownshirts.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 5/8/2021 @ 10:19 am

    lol

    lurker (59504c)

  99. (Oops, wrong thread. I’ll repost it where it belongs.)

    lurker (59504c)


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