The Constitutional Vanguard: The Reaction to the Shooting of Adam Toledo
This week’s free Constitutional Vanguard newsletter is up, and it addresses the shooting of Adam Toledo in Chicago.
[W]e are talking barely over .8 seconds total.
Try this experiment: grab a phone and open a stopwatch app. Hit “start” and think to yourself — as fast as you possibly can, but without speaking out loud — the words “oh shit he’s got a gun I’d better fire” . . . and then stop the stopwatch. Do it several times. When I did it, I tended to get between .75 seconds and around a second or so. Racing my mind as fast as I can, I can’t even think those words much faster than 839 milliseconds.
The people opining about this on Twitter appear to have absolutely no concept of a thing often called “perception-reaction time”: the time between perceiving a need for action and the time it takes to take the action. I’m not an expert on this topic, which comes up a lot in auto accident reconstruction cases, and Web research does not reveal any completely consistent standard length of time between perceptions and reactions. Unsurprisingly, perception-reaction time can depend on a number of factors, like whether the event is expected, distractions, visibility, cognitive impairment, and the like. This discussion, which seems to be but one of many available, seems to suggest a widespread consensus that the average time between perception and reaction is slightly over a second, but it can certainly be quicker or longer than that. The point is: it’s not instantaneous. There’s a reason you’re advised to leave a fair amount of distance between you and the vehicle in front of you on the freeway; namely, it will take you a certain amount of time to perceive that the car in front of you is slowing or has illuminated its brake lights. Then you will have to react to that perception and hit the brake with your foot. All of this takes time.
The problem with the public making a determination is that all videos of this are edited right at the point of the shooting, so that they do not get the whole impression that the officer had when he shot. One presumes that the shot was right when the video stops, but it could have been a minute later for all we know.
I understand why this is, but I disagree when the squeamishness trumps the information.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 3:27 pmThis video you post is complete (and also has sound which is also unique). Most everything is silent, which also creates the wrong impression. The officer is making repeated, and clear, demands that are repeatedly ignored.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 3:30 pmI don’t know where to post, so I’ll copy/paste what I left at the Constitutional Vanguard:
Dana (fd537d) — 4/18/2021 @ 3:32 pmI have to play it in most-slow (VLC) in order to conclude he did have empty hands up at the point when he was shot. The CPD video clearly shows that he hid the fact that he disposed of the weapon behind the fence, which was probably a poor move. Had he dropped it at his feet, he’d likely be alive.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 3:40 pmNote to self: If I have gun and the cop tells me to drop it, make sure he sees me drop it.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 3:41 pmAlso, dropping the gun 10 seconds earlier would have saved his life. Why did he keep holding it?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 3:45 pmThere was another fatal shooting near Minneapolis today. This video may explain why, although the video stops well short of the actual shots.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1383883073654190080
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 4:18 pmPennywise, pound foolish – or at least averse to a beating from the higher ups for losing a gun (someone could have recovered the weapon if the police missed it completely in the canvass post-arrest)..
urbanleftbehind (40b6c3) — 4/18/2021 @ 4:19 pmMy problem with the reaction time argument: It should have been for “Should I shoot?”, and not for “Should I NOT shoot?”
Yes, I have no doubt that the kid was a Latin Kings gun punk. In the traditional meaning of the term. A low-ranking hood who carries the boss’s gun so the boss won’t be the one in trouble if they’re frisked.
But I could also point out that the gun was empty. Obviously empty, the slide is locked back which is what happens after the last round is fired. (Fired, not merely chambered, and the slide returns on an empty magazine.) As an objective fact, the officer was in no immediate danger of being shot.
Voluntary manslaughter (a/k/a second degree murder in Illinois). Unreasonable mistaken self-defense. The police officer was predisposed to shoot instead of not shoot, and when all was said and done it was not necessary for him to shoot.
nk (1d9030) — 4/18/2021 @ 4:20 pmIt’s tragic because it’s a kid who it seems didn’t hurt anyone and, as someone who spends a lot of time working with youngish teenagers, it almost certainly didn’t occur to him in the moment that he was going to get shot. Probably he was mostly worried about getting in trouble.
However, IMO this is also one of the more correct killed-by-police incidents that we’ve seen this year. There was a crime. It involved a shooting. He was fleeing from the scene with a gun. On top of that there doesn’t seem to be a good way to tell that this was a kid.
However, however (and I know we’ve discussed this here before) there is way too much police violence in general, and we need to look at that. And I am using “violence” advisedly, not all force is violence.
Nic (896fdf) — 4/18/2021 @ 4:28 pmnk, at what point in the video did you determine the slide was locked back? While running after someone else who is running, at night, in a dark alley, do you think this would have been obvious? If so, why is the officer demanding the gun be dropped so stridently?
From everything I’ve seen I would have had my finger on the trigger before I saw his hands were empty. Maybe I could have stopped from shooting and maybe not. Of course, these videos are crap so it’s hard to say what the actual truth was.
I doubt he could be convicted. I doubt he’ll be charged. I doubt he’ll be disciplined. Unless of course the mayor can railroad him.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 4:32 pmthere is way too much police violence in general,
Is that a reflection on the police, or on our society?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 4:33 pmIt looked to me like Toledo flicked the gun away, right before he puts his hands up. The cop was put in an untenable situation, by Toledo.
Paul Montagu (26e0d1) — 4/18/2021 @ 4:34 pmThe thing that also bothers me is what a 13-year old kid is doing, running around at 2:30± in the morning, on a Monday. Like with the Kenosha shooter, where’s the parental supervision?
He was scared too. Under that kind of stress, the human brain loses blood to the areas that plan and make decisions, and he was 13. Maybe he thought he could hide the gun and talk his way out of the situation. Maybe he was planning to kill the cop during the foot chase, if rounded a corner and got the chance (that’s what a cop should be worried about first). Who knows what the kid was really thinking?
My academy had this multimillion dollar use of force simulator thing that’s basically a VR chamber where you can tase or shoot. I used to be a taser instructor and those are harder to aim than you’d think so I was a fan of the machine. But these machines just don’t create enough stress. They are fun. It’s just not that easy to lose some of your brain’s decision making capability and then make correct decisions. The guys who are less stressed due to experience were probably the guys the left want out of the job. You just can’t win. Either the cops need to be supersoldiers with nanosecond reactions under life or death stress, or cops need to be social workers who are totally unjaded and bright eyed. Or maybe, just maybe, folks need to be more realistic about what it’s like to try to solve problems like this. A lot of people failed this kid to get him in this situation, and they all seem upset the cop didn’t sacrifice his safety to solve it perfectly (time and time and time again, btw… for example, how many times did the cops ‘solve’ George Floyd’s bad day safely?)
The impact here is that people with guns will probably get away much more often. Why chase them? It’s becoming a little too heroic to be a cop at this point. So murder, violence will skyrocket, cops will decline in quality, and we will spin the drain as our nation’s problems get a little worse day after day.
Dustin (4237e0) — 4/18/2021 @ 4:37 pmDidn’t you see the ‘Hey, I’m just 13 years old’ emblazoned on Toledo’s t-shirt as he bolted down a dark alley at 3 AM clutching a pistol? Was it written in Spanish or English? Jeez–can’t Chi-town coppers even read these days?? Don’t all Chicago parents let their kids out in the middle of the night to play with guns nd gangs in dark alleys at 3 AM?
This wasn’t baseball, where the tie goes to the runner: the cop is safe at the plate on this one.
Ashli Babbitt would agree– except she was unarmed and shot dead by a Capitol cop, who had plenty time to take aim, as the tape shows- and murder her. Charge that bastard instead.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 4/18/2021 @ 4:46 pm“The impact here is that people with guns will probably get away much more often. Why chase them? It’s becoming a little too heroic to be a cop at this point. So murder, violence will skyrocket, cops will decline in quality, and we will spin the drain as our nation’s problems get a little worse day after day.”
The problem is that police are not held accountable when they are at fault, so every time there’s a shooting you’ll have a similar crisis.
Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 4/18/2021 @ 4:54 pmIs that a reflection on the police, or on our society?
Society. A violent one. Assessment stands:
America: you suck.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 4/18/2021 @ 4:57 pmThe reason for this is the concept that it isn’t really their fault when they make a mistake in a nearly unwinnable and dangerous situation. The price we pay for reality I suppose. The alternative is an even greater problem.
By focusing on the tippy tip of a stream of millions of interactions, to send a message that there is an emergency problem, our decision making will be flawed.
Dustin (4237e0) — 4/18/2021 @ 5:00 pmnk, at what point in the video did you determine the slide was locked back? While running after someone else who is running, at night, in a dark alley, do you think this would have been obvious? If so, why is the officer demanding the gun be dropped so stridently?
I doubt that the officer saw the slide locked back. Not any more than he saw the “freshly-inked Latin Kings tattoo” that his lawyer touted in his defense (if you believe lawyers). It’s part of the totality of circumstances.
Or is it all only about feelings?
You know where that place is, right? It’s half a mile from the Cook County Criminal Courts building and just a couple of blocks from Cook County jail. I used to be a regular there It’s not a free fire zone in Afghanistan.
nk (1d9030) — 4/18/2021 @ 5:02 pm“The reason for this is the concept that it isn’t really their fault when they make a mistake in a nearly unwinnable and dangerous situation. The price we pay for reality I suppose. The alternative is an even greater problem.
By focusing on the tippy tip of a stream of millions of interactions, to send a message that there is an emergency problem, our decision making will be flawed.”
What was the dangerous and unwinnable situation that led to Tamir Rice’s death? Or Breonna Tayor’s?
Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 4/18/2021 @ 5:07 pm“What was the dangerous and unwinnable situation that led to Tamir Rice’s death? Or Breonna Tayor’s?”
When you ape the criminals you live near in bearing and demeanor, your chances of dying like them increases dramatically. And when you automatically attack the people who have to parse the difference between a criminal and one who merely defends them reflexively (like nk) in adverse and difficult conditions, well, let’s just say your attitude isn’t helping anyone go home alive tonight or any other night.
Invidious (7f2b0d) — 4/18/2021 @ 5:39 pmYou’re right, Invidious.
nk (1d9030) — 4/18/2021 @ 5:42 pmGood advice nk. Saved me from playing chess with a pigeon.
Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 4/18/2021 @ 5:47 pmDustin, I think you’re dismissing a big part of the problem too easily. One of the complaints off the BLM movement is that when a black person is killed by the police, mistakes are covered up. In this case exactly that happened. The office made a mistake and shot an unarmed 13 year old. I don’t think there was any way for the officer to have known either that Adam Toledo was unarmed, or that he was 13 so I think this was an understandable mistake and not a criminal one. I don’t even think this was a mistake that could have been prevented with training or different policy. But I generally have a good opinion of LEO. I can understand how someone from a different background would look at the deceptions from the city of Chicago about this and be extremely skeptical that what we know now is the full story. I also understand how someone could look at what we know now, and the cities deceptions, and be very skeptical that any use of force is as it’s officially portrayed.
Time123 (d1bf33) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:17 pmThe tippy tip is when the cops totally screw up in a way no reasonable cop would say was acceptable. In those cases, they do not deserve special protection.
But this is actually not that relevant to how to improve a profession, because this is a handful out of hundreds of thousands of people. Ending QI would probably make things a lot worse. I’m biased here, no doubt, but I’d rather see communities work much harder to attract cops, pay them more, and make it a lot easier to fire cops who just aren’t productive or professional (or in great physical shape… I’ve noticed a lot of the bad ones are very small or very fat). Basically my views on police and teacher reform are similar.
If this is a crisis (and I don’t really think it is, except the reaction to it is generating so much fear), then we should draft all able bodied men to police neighborhoods similar to their own after passing some kind of academy. Democratize the whole thing, and people would be more informed on what these challenges are really about.
Dustin (4237e0) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:18 pm@Kevin@12 Yes.
Nic (896fdf) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:23 pmI didn’t even know the kid was black. But it makes a lot of sense to me that a narrative changes around a homocide as it’s investigated. That’s why it’s better to say nothing about it until the facts are soberly understood a few days later.
This isn’t a part of the issue I was discussing, and I did not intend to dismiss it, but it’s not wise for BLM activists to scrutize cherry picked, cliped snippets. In this case, no, the department didn’t really cover up something. I think it’s the opposite that happened. but we’re all biased I suppose.
Dustin (4237e0) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:27 pmIt’s just not that easy to lose some of your brain’s decision making capability and then make correct decisions.
You would know better than I, I guess.
But I have been in a situation (in a car) where the odds were well against me surviving and my decision making was pretty spot on. I had to make a moral choice; did without batting an eye although it decreased my chances; and still survived. I was also lucky.
I cannot imagine a job where that kind of freeze-frame thinking happened a lot though.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:28 pmThe problem is that police are not held accountable when they are at fault, so every time there’s a shooting you’ll have a similar crisis.
The alternative is NOT to hold them accountable when they are not at fault. Our justice system lets criminals go free because the evidence isn’t compelling (generally without a trial), why should cops get a substantially worse deal? All in all, I think departments hire better people as cops than voters hire politicians.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:32 pmGiven the split-second decision-making and how fast the shooting transpired, I don’t think the cop could reasonably be expected to see this. In the dark. Obviously his vantage point was far different than ours with the luxury of watching the video at any speed, and without our lives being in danger.
What troubles me greatly is the fact that a 13-year old kid was running the streets in the wee hours of the morning with an adult male criminal.
Dana (fd537d) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:32 pmI’m glad. I do think people get better at this kind of thing. But I don’t think it’s easy to self-evaluate. Chauvin probably thought he was really solid under stress. It’s hard to see some of these guys as anything other than self centered bullies.
I run my mouth a lot about improving the quality of who you hire (to the exasperation of a couple of people who do a lot of the hiring, btw). Truth is, the standards are kinda low, out of necessity. Or at least that’s what I’ve been told. I think that problem is going to get bad in the next few years.
Dustin (4237e0) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:38 pmNow, there are bad cops. Other cops know who they are. If there were a culture where cops cleaned their own house rather than looking at it like “but he’s our SOB”, then maybe this wouldn’t be an issue.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:41 pmI think that problem is going to get bad in the next few years.
Because the people who quit are the ones you’d rather didn’t?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:43 pmI agree with this. Unfortunately, a prevailing narrative says that whenever black men are shot by cops it’s a bad shooting. So when a terrible confluence of unfortunate events unfold, as in this shooting, no quarter can be given to the cop. But as Patrick’s post makes clear, a prevailing narrative is neither a good nor accurate determination. And certainly, the media’s involvement only tends to push said narrative or muddy the waters. In fact, at the least, it’s misleading and can easily sway public opinion. The particulars matter. Always.
Dana (fd537d) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:45 pm“The alternative is NOT to hold them accountable when they are not at fault. Our justice system lets criminals go free because the evidence isn’t compelling (generally without a trial), why should cops get a substantially worse deal? All in all, I think departments hire better people as cops than voters hire politicians.”
No, the alternative is to hold them accountable when they’re at fault, and not when they’re not at fault. The current system skews heavily towards never holding them accountable.
Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:46 pmTo me there is a stark difference between the Derek Chauvin types and the cop in this shooting. There isn’t the unmasked rage and hate that Chavin evidenced. The cop in Adam Toledo shooting seemed to be under a different kind of motivation. Chauvin seemed to be taking out every ounce of anger, hurt, resentment and built-up rage on George Floyd. And I think he took some level of pleasure in hurting him.
Dana (fd537d) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:48 pm“The tippy tip is when the cops totally screw up in a way no reasonable cop would say was acceptable. In those cases, they do not deserve special protection.”
But they get it anyway.
“Ending QI would probably make things a lot worse. ”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2020/05/13/should-cops-accused-of-stealing-over-225000-have-legal-immunity-supreme-court-urged-to-hear-case/?sh=2b608f632877
Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 4/18/2021 @ 6:50 pmWell said. Laws reacting to Chauvin could wind up being very impractical and even unfair to the cop in this shooting.
Thulu, I agree the key to QI is to actually make sure if a violation of a constitutional right happens in an unreasonable way, we don’t protect it. Like cops tell eachother all the time, abuse something, and you’ll lose it.
But debate by seeking out the most absurd and extreme isn’t really what I’m here for.
Dustin (4237e0) — 4/18/2021 @ 7:00 pm@35 may a cop who thought police work without QI was his best career choice respond to your next 911 call
JF (6fcdbe) — 4/18/2021 @ 8:11 pmDana,
in what world do you see Chauvin enjoying hurting Floyd?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 4/18/2021 @ 8:15 pmThe current system skews heavily towards never holding them accountable.
The current system skews that way for everyone. It may skew more that way for people who have resources, but life does that too.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 8:28 pmQualified immunity in its “good faith” form as an exception to the Civil Rights Act of 1871 (now 42 USC 1983 or just Section 1983) was created by the Supreme Court in 1967. In 1982 (the year, not the code section), the Supreme Court eliminated the good faith requirement and replaced with the current “it ain’t bad if we ain’t said it’s bad” version.
Why? Because they can, that’s why. Pack the mother____er! Pack it till it bursts.
nk (1d9030) — 4/18/2021 @ 9:07 pm@Dana@30 A lot of my students who make bad choices are good kids. I have some who probably are sociopaths and some who are willful bullies and some who deliberately and with malice aforethought choose to tell nasty lies and some who have mental illnesses, but most of my kids, even the ones who get into trouble, are good-hearted kids. Mostly they don’t think ahead, or they are quick tempered, or they want to be cool, or don’t want to look like a coward, or feel like they need protection, or feel like they are protecting someone when they make bad choices. At 13 most kids aren’t hardened.
He could very well have been a good kid with bad friends, or the family could be into bad stuff, or he could have idolized the gang lifestyle, we’ll probably never know because the family will say he’s good and the school (who probably does know 😛 ) isn’t allowed to talk about it.
Nic (896fdf) — 4/18/2021 @ 9:43 pm“The current system skews that way for everyone. It may skew more that way for people who have resources, but life does that too.”
In the two examples I provided (Tamir Rice and Breonna Taylor), there’s evidence that the prosecutor had his thumb on the scale in favor of the police. The system doesn’t skew that way for everyone.
Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 4/18/2021 @ 10:32 pmAs for those above who said the kid should have simply dropped his gun, that doesn’t always work out either:
https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2020-09-01/los-angeles-police-fatally-shoot-black-man-after-suspected-bike-violation
In that case, police stop a guy for a “bike violation” and a gun drops out of a bundle he was holding, falling to the ground, so the police shoot him. They claim later that he punched them and was “reaching” for the gun, though witnesses dispute that.
I think we should take a step back and note that a police officer was running down an alley with his gun drawn after somebody who, if not having a “i am 13” sign floating over his head was clearly young, and decided on a split second to shoot the kid without being really clear what’s in his hands.
And this is because American police have been taught that the most important thing in the world is to protect their own lives, that guns are how you do it, and that every civilian might kill them on a second’s notice (though in the real world this belief seems reserved more often for people of color than would otherwise be warranted).
There’s a reason police in the U.S. kill people at a rate nearly ten times greater than in Europe. And it’s not because they don’t have criminals in Europe.
Victor (4959fb) — 4/18/2021 @ 11:36 pmTo expand on the point. How many times is it really helping public safety for an officer to pull out his gun? With the Duante Wright case, what if the police, knowing his license number and name and address, simply watch him drive off without trying to tase him, let alone kill him? And send an unarmed social worker to his door later to tell him he’s under arrest for expired tabs, an unpaid fine, and running away from the police? What great risk to the public safety in such a situation?
Victor (4959fb) — 4/19/2021 @ 2:49 amDustin wrote: “I didn’t even know the kid was black. But it makes a lot of sense to me that a narrative changes around a homicide as it’s investigated. That’s why it’s better to say nothing about it until the facts are soberly understood a few days later.
I agree with you that to do the job we need done police officers must be empowered to make difficult decisions around use of force in terrible circumstances. For this to work we need 2 things
1. The officer needs to know that they won’t be punished for an honest mistake.
2. Everyone else needs to know that the facts will be honestly shared so that the system can hold officers accountable for bad acts, and that the public can hold the system accountable for the results of bad policy.
This is not a case where as we learn more as time goes on because the facts are complicated. This is a case where the city intentionally kept pertinent facts about the shooting not just from the public, but from the courts as well. As Patterio’s post makes clear, this was an honest mistake. But if the city is willing to lie about honest mistakes why should I believe they’re holding people accountable for bad acks?
Time123 (daab2f) — 4/19/2021 @ 4:26 amYears back I was driving in a pretty poor city. Lots of crime, lots of poverty and not much else. There was an add on the radio for city police officers that asked if you had a high school diploma or GED and had ever wanted to be an officer.
Time123 (daab2f) — 4/19/2021 @ 4:29 amI watched the video. He looked like he was smugly enjoying Floyd’s pain when he knelt on his neck. Probably because Floyd had been a violent a$$ when they tried to put him in the squad car. YMMV
Time123 (daab2f) — 4/19/2021 @ 4:30 amThis is BS. It was late at night and dark.
Shots were fired and 2 people fled. One larger then the other.
One officer pursued the larger. The other pursued the smaller one who can be seen carrying a gun.
I’m all for holding people accountable for bad actions and the system accountable for bad policy. But so far there’s no evidence that the officer knew the age of the smaller suspect prior to the shooting.
Time123 (daab2f) — 4/19/2021 @ 4:33 amTime123,
Is your interpretation of him enjoying it similar to how many felt Nick Sandmann had a smirk and punch punchable face? People using their own interpretation of events to color what they see.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 4/19/2021 @ 5:08 amRob, I watched the full video and I’m aware of the context. Intuiting someone’s emotional state based on expression and body language is obviously subjective. I don’t doubt that you see it differently.
Time123 (daab2f) — 4/19/2021 @ 5:56 amGotta push back on this narrative. The United States, as a whole, has never been safer. Violent crime is at historic lows. Not saying there aren’t problems with policing, but violence across the board is low.
Hoi Polloi (093fb9) — 4/19/2021 @ 6:38 amCallous. Uncaring. Dispassionately sadistic. A personification of the entire criminal justice system, in a way. Which routinely processes thousands of people though its cogs every day in the same impersonal, detached, dehumanizing way. Chauvin, I mean.
nk (1d9030) — 4/19/2021 @ 6:52 amDon’t worry. Soon there will be drones doing just that.
Hoi Polloi (093fb9) — 4/19/2021 @ 7:33 amVictor, I think that mistaking a taser for a gun and killing a man may be negligent homicide. Definitely a fireable offense. But he had an outstanding warrant and the police should have tried to arrest him when they became aware of it.
Time123 (457a1d) — 4/19/2021 @ 7:47 amHave you seen pictures of Daunte? He was a itty-bitty little guy. What if either of the police officers had been a normally-size, normally-fit man who could just grab him by the shoulder (did you know that medically/anatomically there is no clear line of demarcation between shoulder and upper arm?) and say “Knock it off, kid!” instead of a PAWG shouting “Taser! Taser! Taser!”?
nk (1d9030) — 4/19/2021 @ 7:48 amThe shooting is a mistake, but it doesn’t appear criminally negligent. Policing is a difficult profession and tight budgets and modest pay make it a challenge to always get and keep the best, have them trained adequately, remove those that aren’t very good at it, and identify those that need a break from the most stressful types of encounters. I understand the problem those have with situations that appear to be shoot first, ask questions later…..and situations that beg for de-escalation and restraint. But I also empathize with officers that are immediately assumed to be racist and corrupt because of the actions of a few. Cutting police budgets when you probably need to increase them to increase training and attract better candidates….is an odd response. As tragic as this shooting is….it’s even more tragic that a 13yr old was caught up in this criminal nonsense…when he should be playing Little League….and getting excited about high school. Something needs to change there as well….
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 4/19/2021 @ 7:51 amJust remember, if Chauvin is not found guilty of murder, the rioting and violence lands solely at the feet of Maxine Waters, Democrat.
I doubt the media will hyperventilate, or even cover it, though.
Some political violence is good.
Hoi Polloi (093fb9) — 4/19/2021 @ 7:53 amIt’s not a coincidence that the Supreme Court made qualified immunity an almost insurmountable bar at the same time it lowered hiring criteria for police officers to the lowest common denominator.
And it’s the height of chutzpah for The Wise Latina (Sotomayor) to now dissent in qualified immunity cases when she was one of the accomplices in the lowering of hiring standards as a judge.
nk (1d9030) — 4/19/2021 @ 7:58 amTime123,
Did it matter if he knew the exact age? It was pretty clearly a kid. So an officer is chasing a teenager down a dark alley with his gun drawn or ready to be drawn. Perhaps this is a good time to not do that. You say there’s a danger that a kid with a gun will run off into the dark (I note that the “shots fired” report didn’t indicate shots fired at anybody in particular). Well given that we have a system where police are likely to shoot at people running with guns, in residential neighborhoods, perhaps that’s a danger too. And a better run crime prevention system would have it be the first option we turn to.
As for the Daunte incident, there was a warrant for his arrest. But there wasn’t an obligation to arrest him there, then, in a physical incident, for a nonviolent offense. Let him go. Accept the temporary defeat and blow to police prestige and pick him up later, perhaps after calling his parents, in a situation that will be more peaceful.
I like where Conor goes in his article:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/us-needs-ntsb-police-killings/618624/
There should be federal level quasi NTSB inquiries into every police shooting to figure out ways of making sure, even if they are legally justified, that there aren’t ways of designing systems to reduce their frequency. Just like we do with plane crashes. We treat those as failures of the system. I don’t know police shooting people can ever be completely eliminated – even Norwegian police do it occasionally – but I think the incidence could be greatly reduced if we did see every instance as a failure.
Victor (4959fb) — 4/19/2021 @ 7:59 amJust remember, if Chauvin is not found guilty of murder, the rioting and violence lands solely at the feet of Maxine Waters, Democrat.
The streets are just about all that the people, all the people of any race, color and creed, have when it comes to police abuses. For all practical purposes, they have no legal remedy unless a prosecutor takes up the case.
If you think that federal qualified immunity is bad, look at the state laws that protect bad cops. Every person in America today is in the same boat as a recently-freed slave in Mississippi in 1871 when it comes to looking at state law for protection from official abuses .
nk (1d9030) — 4/19/2021 @ 8:07 amI disagree that it was clearly a kid that was running away in the video.
I disagree. When the police hear shots fired in the middle of the night and someone with a gun runs from them they should pursue that person and understand what happened.
He chose to use force to try escape the police. He shouldn’t have been shot, but yes, when the police come into contact with a person who has an outstanding arrest warrant they should take that person into custody.
Time123 (457a1d) — 4/19/2021 @ 8:11 amI wanted to add, what do you honestly think someone who is fleeing a warrant will do when an unarmed social worker knocks on their door? They’re not likely to make an appointment to turn themselves in.
Time123 (457a1d) — 4/19/2021 @ 8:30 amDaunte had almost certainly been sent a notice of the warrant at the address he had put down on his bail bond.
nk (1d9030) — 4/19/2021 @ 8:45 amWith instructions on what to do.
nk (1d9030) — 4/19/2021 @ 8:46 amAnd a warning that he would be arrested in the meantime if he came to the attention of the police for some other reason.
nk (1d9030) — 4/19/2021 @ 8:47 amA long time ago a friend of mine got into a pushing match in a parking lot. The other person went to the police who called my friend. My friend ignored them. Didn’t answer the phone, didn’t return messages. The police left a message for them that they’d be arrested if they didn’t come in and eventually that’s what happened. But if officers hadn’t shown up my friend would have ignored them until the sun went out.
Time123 (457a1d) — 4/19/2021 @ 9:12 amIt’s pretty clear to us because, after the fact, we know that he’s 13-years old. But if you were chasing him in the dark for a few brief seconds, do you believe that you could safely assume that it was clear that you were chasing a kid?
Dana (fd537d) — 4/19/2021 @ 9:13 amJust remember, if Chauvin is not found guilty of murder, the rioting and violence lands solely at the feet of Maxine Waters, Democrat.
I think there will be rioting anyway if Chauvin is acquitted.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/19/2021 @ 9:32 amAnd not just in Minneapolis.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/19/2021 @ 9:34 amThe part of the story I “like” best is the highlighted part below
So … when people advise “Don’t look at them”, they’re right?
nk (1d9030) — 4/19/2021 @ 9:36 am@Patterico: Great post and I appreciate your “just the facts ma’am” approach to this.
@thread: Anyone else following the bits ‘n bob of the Chauvin trial? I’m kinda gobsmacked by the prosecutions lack of arguments that this was due to racial animus.
whembly (ae0eb5) — 4/19/2021 @ 10:06 am@72
Officers says “stop!” or “freeze!”… best action is to literally do just that.
whembly (ae0eb5) — 4/19/2021 @ 10:07 amOff topic, but glorious:
Success! NASA’s Ingenuity Makes 1st Powered Flight On Mars
America: You don’t suck.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/19/2021 @ 10:10 amI think there will be rioting anyway if Chauvin is acquitted.
And if the stores have restocked.
nk (1d9030) — 4/19/2021 @ 10:18 amFew Charges, Fewer Convictions: The Chauvin Trial and the History of Police Violence
……..
The Times reviewed dozens of similar cases in which encounters between Black people and police ended fatally. Though many cases prompted public outrage, that did not always translate to criminal indictments. In some cases, police officers were shown to have responded lawfully. In others, charges were dropped or plea agreements were reached. Some have resulted in civil settlements. But very few have resulted in convictions at trial.
These cases offer valuable points of comparison about what issues — video evidence, drug use, whether the person who died was armed — proved decisive in each outcome and what consequences, if any, officers faced. ……
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/19/2021 @ 10:20 am……..
Videos captured by dashboard cameras, body-worn cameras and bystanders with cellphones have significantly changed the way police officers are prosecuted. In the Chauvin trial, the widely viewed bystander video is the central piece of evidence for the prosecution, whose experts analyzed it frame by frame.
…….
Many investigations of police killings hinge on whether the person killed had been armed, or whether the officer had reason to believe he was armed, a judgment that officers say they have only a split second to make. …….
……
Courts have generally accepted the argument that the police need to make difficult, quick decisions while responding to perceived threats. …….
…….
Why? Because they can, that’s why. Pack the mother____er! Pack it till it bursts.
SC to packers: “Sorry, you can do that. Reasons” Because they can.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2021 @ 10:55 amI don’t actually know that he was fleeing a warrant except to the extent he was trying to run from police who had just stopped him on a road for a technical violation. It’s not like it seems he was hiding before then.
And what would he do if someone called him, or showed up at his door unarmed? Perhaps he’d come in , perhaps he wouldn’t. If he doesn’t and the matter is important enough for an arrest, send someone who will use force next time. And at the end of this, what you may think is a tedious, process he’d more likely to be alive and the city would be less likely to be wrecked by people who think the police’s first instinct is to shoot someone running.
Victor (4959fb) — 4/19/2021 @ 11:15 amVictor, your proposal is a poor one. He shouldn’t have been shot, that was a mistake. But trying to enforce warrants with unarmed social workers is a waste of time and money.
He shouldn’t have tried to flee.
Time123 (235fc4) — 4/19/2021 @ 11:19 amThe officer shouldn’t have shot him.
Time,
My desire to find alternatives to police use of force where possible stems in part from knowing that the U.S. has ten times the police shootings of its nearest competing countries, and that police culture is too fixed on violence as their immediate answer.
As an example of the latter problem I point to this article from New York magazine:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/04/daunte-wright-shooting-why-do-tasers-look-like-guns.html
Why do Tasers have pistol grips like guns? The manufacturer wasn’t particularly in favor but police departments wanted it that way because their officers had been trained on guns and had that muscle memory.
He shouldn’t have tried to flee. But he did
Victor (4959fb) — 4/19/2021 @ 11:45 amThe police shouldn’t have tried to stop him if that would increase the level of violence. But they did. I expect more of the police than random strangers.
Gotta push back on this narrative. The United States, as a whole, has never been safer.
Households with guns is at the lowest level in the past 50 years (30% vs 45% in 1972) and the continuing trend is down.
Mass shootings may be lower, too, but the statistics are polluted by wildly divergent definitions.
The “Mass Shooting Tracker” defines a mass shooting as “4 or more killed or wounded in any setting” and lists 503 mass shootings, with 628 fatalities in 2019. Slightly over 1 death per “mass shooting” by their definition.
The Violence Project defines a mass shooting as “Four people fatally injured (excluding shooter), shooting indiscriminately in a public setting” and they list 6 such events in 2019, with 60 fatalities. Or 10 deaths each on average.
Clearly it is hard (to impossible) to compare mass shootings by year when the standards diverge this way. Fifty years ago, would a mass shooting in rural Ohio have made news in NY or LA? Hard to say. It will now, of course. Given that the number of households with guns was over 50 percent prior to the 1960s it is hard to say that the number of people with guns leads to mass shootings.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2021 @ 11:56 amVictor, your proposal is a poor one. He shouldn’t have been shot, that was a mistake. But trying to enforce warrants with unarmed social workers is a waste of time and money.
And, likely, a waste of social workers.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2021 @ 11:58 am4. 5. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2021 @ 3:40 pm and 3:41 pm
He didn’t want to be charged with illegal gun possession. He wanted to be able to plausibly deny in court that he had a gun. Possibly some older boys told him that’s what to do.
They said something like: Get rid of the gun before the cop gets close to you.
Of course, being 13 years old, he probably wouldn’t have faced along jail sentence anyway.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 4/19/2021 @ 12:03 pmSo, I have a secret vice of watching UK police procedurals. One of the things that constantly amazes me is how docile the criminals are. An episode my have some guy killing 10 people with an axe, but when Inspector Plodder and Sergeant Dullard come to arrest him, he just puts out his hands for the cuffs.
It doesn’t happen that way here, and I suspect it doesn’t happen that way there either.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2021 @ 12:03 pmWhen a cop sees you with a gun, he’s going to assume you still have it until proven otherwise. If he last saw you holding the gun, then you whirl around towards him, it will be a unique officer who doesn’t think you are about to shoot.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2021 @ 12:06 pm46. Victor (4959fb) — 4/19/2021 @ 2:49 am
Police don’t usually enforce bench warrants, maybe because they could be dangerous for the cop, (are there other reasons, like not having enough manpower?) and instead they wait for another encounter with the defendant, either because somebody calls the police because of something else they’ve done or because of a traffic stop, and then they check to see if the person is wanted.
The whole issue of bench warrants could largely be voided if defendants were allowed to make virtual appearances – and maybe phoned also – for most court appearances.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/05/can-justice-be-served-on-zoom/618392
I think the 60% rate is low, and I didn’t think so few people showed up for jury duty. It might have something to do with not knowing how to postpone it.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 4/19/2021 @ 12:16 pmNow this is what probably happened in the Daunte Wright case:
1) Why he fled: According to Bill O’Reilly (who might misinformation) he was out on $100,000 bail which probably means his family paid $10,000 to a bail bondsman. HE PROBABLY FACED BAIL BEING REVOKED and spending a minimum of several months in jail, until he was let free after a plea bargain. I don;t know if his family might have to come up with $90,000 to repay the bail bondsman.
2) The pistol instead of the taser: The 48-year old policewoman, Kim Potter, probably originally intended to use her taser, ut she couldn’t without stopping what she was doing for a second or two. She was on stage training a rookie.
She so little thought about the possibility of using a taser that it wasn’t practical. The protocol was to place the pistol on her right (or dominant) side and the taser on her left side. It was still supposed to be possible to reach over with her right hand and grab the taser but she had placed it too far to the left and it wasn’t possible. She would have had to pick it it up with her left hand and transfer it to her right hand. So she picks up the pistol.
Then she hesitates for several seconds, not knowing what to do. And remember now, she has an audience (the rookie)
Then she panics and, perhaps without really intending to, fires the gun, or maybe even the gun goes off. And immediately cries out that she messed up.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 4/19/2021 @ 12:31 pmDuante Wright was accused of choking a woman and threatening her with a pistol and demanding her rent money of about %820, which she had stuffed into her bra.
Attempted aggravated robbery in December 2019.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/2697094/daunte-wright-allegedly-choked-woman-steal-money
He placed his hand around her neck and choked her while trying to pull the cash from under her bra, but the victim was able to get loose from defendant Wright and started to kneel down and scream. He then said he was going to shoot her, but that they would leave if they got the money. He tried to choke her a second time, while the other man told her to hand over the money to Wright, and maybe she pretended to – she fooled them – the cash was still in her bra – and they left in a white Cadillac, without successfully taking the money.
She later identified both Wright and Driver in photo line-ups. How did she know who they were? It could have been they knew each other and the two men had had a tryst with the two women.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 4/19/2021 @ 12:48 pmI’m glad that she did, otherwise she might have been able to pretend she didn’t make a mistake.
Time123 (ae9d89) — 4/19/2021 @ 12:49 pmGlad that she cried out that she made a mistake. I’m not glad that she killed a man.
Time123 (ae9d89) — 4/19/2021 @ 12:50 pmIt was not immediately fatal. He drove off (and she let him) before crashing his car a few blocks away.
It’s better for her that she cried out that she made a mistake. Because there was body cam video, and a witness, and it clearly wasn’t justified.
He called up his mother I was not 100% clear on this that this happened. Here it is. There was a second call back from his mother after he was shot.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/13/us/daunte-wright-family-reaction/index.html
He called up his mother when he was stopped. The police officer told him after a while to put down the phone, and later to hang up the phone. She called back. After a bit, the girl who was in the car with him picked up the phone and said he had been shot. She put the phone next to him but there was no response. The police, two days later, had not given the family an explanation.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 4/19/2021 @ 1:39 pmI was not 100% clear on when he called up his mother. It even sounded like it was after he was shot. Not so.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 4/19/2021 @ 1:42 pmBreaking-
Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick, who engaged rioters, suffered two strokes and died of natural causes, officials say
Capitol Police officer Brian D. Sicknick suffered two strokes and died of natural causes a day after he confronted rioters at the Jan. 6 insurrection, the District’s chief medical examiner has ruled.
The ruling, released Monday, likely will make it difficult for prosecutors to pursue homicide charges in the officer’s death. Two men are accused of assaulting Sicknick by spraying a powerful chemical irritant at him during the siege.
In an interview with The Washington Post, Francisco J. Diaz, the medical examiner, said the autopsy found no evidence the 42-year-old officer suffered an allergic reaction to chemical irritants, which Diaz said would have caused Sicknick’s throat to quickly seize. Diaz also said there was no evidence of internal or external injuries.
The medical examiner noted Sicknick was among the officers who engaged the Capitol mob and said “all that transpired played a role in his condition.”
Diaz said Sicknick suffered two strokes at the base of the brain stem caused by a clot in an artery that supplies blood to that area of the body. Diaz said he could not comment on whether Sicknick had a preexisting medical condition, citing privacy laws.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/19/2021 @ 1:56 pm…….
I posted the same on the open thread, but from a different source, Rip.
Which thread should be used if a discussion about this begins?
BuDuh (bebb7f) — 4/19/2021 @ 2:01 pm85. So, I have a secret vice of watching UK police procedurals. One of the things that constantly amazes me is how docile the criminals are.
Stiff upper lip, wot!?! I say, old bean– they’re BRITISH.
“It’s a fair cop.” – The Witch [Connie Booth] ‘Monty Python And The Holy Grail’ 1975
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 4/19/2021 @ 2:01 pm@95-
I think we’re covered for now, and I’m sure Dana will post about it. A Chauvin thread should also be posted, so we can all make predictions about the verdict and how long the jury will be out.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/19/2021 @ 2:06 pmOk. Thanks.
BuDuh (bebb7f) — 4/19/2021 @ 2:07 pmDustin (4237e0) — 4/18/2021 @ 4:37 pm
They did in 2019.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7reJpf-23o
Start one minute in:
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 4/19/2021 @ 2:08 pm@75. NASA doesn’t suck, Rip. America does.
A piece of the Wright brothers’ first airplane is on Mars. NASA’s experimental Martian helicopter holds a small swatch of fabric from the 1903 Wright Flyer, the space agency revealed Tuesday. The helicopter, named Ingenuity, hitched a ride to the red planet with the Perseverance rover, arriving last month.
MEMO to JPL/NASA:
Teared up watching this. Wilbur and Orville would be amused. So damn proud of you, kids. Long journey from Mariner 4 in ’64/’65.
Cronkite was right: everybody down here is downcast. Everybody there at NASA and JPL is looking up.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 4/19/2021 @ 2:15 pm“The streets are just about all that the people, all the people of any race, color and creed, have when it comes to police abuses. For all practical purposes, they have no legal remedy unless a prosecutor takes up the case.”
Other than that, Mr. nk, what did you think about January 6th? And is Kyle R. ‘the street’ in your hilariously over-the-top remedy that ignores almost the entire history of official and unofficial American jursprudence? Did you take creative writing classes from the Chauvin prosecution?
“If you think that federal qualified immunity is bad, look at the state laws that protect bad cops.”
Well, it’s a good thing nirk also comes down hard on tech companies when they heavily censor political undesirables whose gofundmes also mysteriously disappear. Nothing gets by this man except for the important stuff!
“Every person in America today is in the same boat as a recently-freed slave in Mississippi in 1871 when it comes to looking at state law for protection from official abuses.”
And in the real world, Americans generally have the choice NOT to live in dens of corrupt iniquity like, say, Minnesota, and as a result state troopers tend to never actually exercise their theoretically infinite plenary policing power!!!, which is why he has to bring up hoary old cliches from the time that the states were acting as agents of an interstate Confederacy in lieu of any concrete examples. Next he’ll be telling me that Russia is America’s greatest strategic threat.
In reality this nika hates anything local because local people who know each other are far harder to snitch on without consequence. Also, they tend to look disdainfully at best and unkindly at worst on people whose every proclamation is a claim to have SEEN IT ALL, MAAAN. Hall monitors and apple-polishers are the first people weeded out of a competent local team.
Saludain (4bb7f4) — 4/19/2021 @ 2:57 pmThe short response to things like this is: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I’m sorry that the 13yo was killed, but he was already deep into the gang thing and anyone who says he wasn’t is either lying or in denial.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2021 @ 3:36 pmI just love armchair police.
They are cousins to armchair quarterbacks. “Hey, Tom Brady, how come you didn’t see the wide open receiver?” Put it down to lack of training. If that doesn’t fix it, racism is always a good fallback. After all, most receivers in the NFL are black.
norcal (01e272) — 4/19/2021 @ 6:36 pmRIP Walter Mondale (93).
Rip Murdock (46eeea) — 4/19/2021 @ 6:46 pmAmerica: You don’t suck.
JPL, at least, never has.
I envy those kids who built that. When I came out of college in the late 70s, I would have killed for a job like that, but Nixon and the hippies had closed down spaceflight and even unmanned missions were few and far between (like the never-launched Grand Tour). *sigh*
They did a great job.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2021 @ 11:04 pmI hear they’re going to do an Immelmann next.
Also: https://xkcd.com/2452/
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2021 @ 11:07 pm