Patterico's Pontifications

1/15/2021

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:45 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Here are a few news items that might interest you. Please feel free to include anything you think would interest readers. Make sure to include links.

First news item

Say what?:

A senior administration official told CNN that when the administration announced that it would be releasing reserved doses Friday, many of those reserves had already been released into the system starting last year as production was ramping up.

When Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar was asked Friday whether there is in fact a reserve of second doses left to release, he said, “No. There’s not a reserve stockpile.”

“We now have enough confidence that our ongoing production will be quality and available to provide the second dose for people, so we’re not sitting on a reserve anymore,” he said in an interview with NBC’s Lester Holt. “We’ve made that available to the states to order.”

The revelation appears to contradict what Azar announced on Tuesday at an Operation Warp Speed briefing, where he said the administration would be “releasing the entire supply for order by states, rather than holding second doses in reserve.”

And it adds another level of confusion for state officials, who have scrambled to distribute the vaccines after being tasked to do so by the federal government.

Second news item

More of that “smooth transition”:

Responding to warnings of potentially violent demonstrations, governors across the nation are calling out National Guard troops, declaring states of emergency and closing their capitols to the public ahead of President-elect Joe Biden’s inauguration next week.

Though details remain murky, demonstrations are expected at state capitols beginning Sunday and leading up to Biden’s succession of President Donald Trump on Wednesday. State officials hope to avoid the type of violence that occurred Jan. 6[.]

Third news item

But of course:

President Donald Trump plans to make the unprecedented move to depart the White House next Wednesday morning, just before President-elect Joe Biden’s inauguration…

Trump has requested a large sendoff to be planned for the morning of Jan. 20, sources said, after he choppers via Marine One to Joint Base Andrews, where he is expected to give remarks to supporters and departing members of his administration.

Sources add that Trump has requested his departure ceremony to have a “military-like feel,” although details are not finalized.

He hopes to depart to the blare of a military band, with a red carpet and military honors, according to sources briefed on the plans. Even some sort of military flyover has been suggested, they said.

Fourth news item

A w-o-m-a-n indeed!:

Dorothy Schmidt Cole, recognized last year as the oldest living U.S. Marine, has died at age 107.

Beth Kluttz, Cole’s only child, confirmed Friday that her mother died of a heart attack at Kluttz’s home in Kannapolis, North Carolina, on Jan. 7.

The Charlotte Observer reports Cole enlisted as one of the earliest female Marine reservists following the bombing of Pearl Harbor. She had left her Ohio home to head to Pittsburgh, where she hoped to volunteer for the Navy, but because she was only 4 feet, 11 inches tall, she was deemed too short to meet Navy standards.

Undaunted by her rejection, Cole decided to learn how to fly an airplane and persuade the Marine Corps to let her be a pilot.

In July 1942, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Marine Corps Women’s Reserve into law, giving women the chance to fill positions left open by men headed to combat. The Corps delayed formation of the branch until February 1943, and Cole enlisted five months later at age 29, becoming one of the earliest volunteers for the branch.

Despite putting in 200 hours in the cockpit of a Piper Cub, Cole completed six weeks of boot camp at Camp Lejeune with the Women’s Reserve’s First Battalion and wound up “behind a typewriter instead of an airplane.”

Fifth news item

Another but of course:

President Donald Trump is considering granting a pardon to Steve Bannon, his former White House chief strategist and top campaign aide, who was charged with swindling donors to a private crowdsourcing effort to build a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

The potential pardon would follow a wave of reprieves the president has recently granted to political allies who have been convicted, charged or reportedly under federal investigation. Two additional batches of pardons are expected — one on Friday night and one Wednesday morning before President-elect Joe Biden is sworn into office, according to one of the people.

(Bannon has pleaded not guilty to the charges against him, and is due to stand trial in May 2021.)

Sixth news item

Lou Dobbs unwittingly points out the core problem of today’s Republican Party:

Fox Business host Lou Dobbs raged on Thursday that a handful of Republican lawmakers refused to stand by President Donald Trump after he incited a violent insurrection at the U.S. Capitol last week that led to five deaths.

“These are people who don’t care about the party, the president. They don’t care about the Constitution themselves,” Dobbs said to his “Lou Dobbs Tonight” guest, former GOP Rep. Jason Chaffetz.

“Because they’re acting in utter disregard for the president’s right to loyalty.”

Seventh news item

Uh-oh:

Prosecutors in Georgia appear increasingly likely to open a criminal investigation of President Trump over his attempts to overturn the results of the state’s 2020 election, an inquiry into offenses that would be beyond his federal pardon power.”

Eighth news item

Oh, boo-hoo, you big fat babies:

Rep. Andy Biggs (R-Ariz.), the leader of the conservative House Freedom Caucus, and Rep. Matt Rosendale (R-Mont.) are circulating a petition that seeks to force Cheney out of her leadership role for her decision, which she called a “vote of conscience.”

They say her decision to announce her position a day before the vote gave Democrats talking points to go after Republicans.

Cheney didn’t take part in the floor debate, but she was mentioned repeatedly by Democratic speakers. Several Republicans noted the remarks by House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.), who cited Cheney as he made the case for Trump’s impeachment.

“If you’re in leadership, you can vote your conscience, but you can’t get up there and make it harder for the members of your team by giving talking points to the opponents,” one member told The Hill.

Cheney says she’s not stepping down.

“I’m not going anywhere,” she told reporters Wednesday. “This is a vote of conscience. It’s one where there are different views in our conference. But our nation is facing an unprecedented, since the civil war, a constitutional crisis.”

FFS, GROWN MEN IGNORING THEIR COMPLICITY IN ALL THINGS TRUMP WHILE THEY BLAME A WOMAN WHO VOTED HER CONSCIENCE AND HAS MORE MORAL FORTITUDE AND SPINE THAN THEY COULD EVER DREAM OF HAVING! Seriously, Republicans, this is not a good look for the party.

Ninth news item

Wouldn’t be surprised to see more of this happen:

Since the Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol, what appears to be an unusual number of Republicans in the three biggest Tampa Bay area counties have switched parties, mostly to no party affiliation, but some becoming Democrats.

News reports in Florida and nationwide have noted a similar phenomenon elsewhere, with voters citing anger at President Donald Trump and his supporters.

But at least a few Republicans may also be switching out of anger that party leaders haven’t backed Trump strongly enough, including one Hillsborough County Republican Party official.

According to figures from Hillsborough, Pasco and Pinellas elections supervisors, 2,025 Republicans in the three counties switched parties from Jan. 6 through Thursday.

The 2,025 GOP party switchers are less than half of 1 percent of the total 705,818 Republicans registered in the three counties.

But the number switching is far higher than in the same time period following the 2016 presidential election.

Have a great weekend.

–Dana

347 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (cc9481)

  2. Dana,

    Thank you for all the effort you put into this blog. I guess it was back in 2006 when I started trading comments with you at Cathy Seipp’s blog. 15 years!

    Yes, I’m glad that Cheney took a stand. It was brave, because I’m sure Wyoming is prime Trumper country, and she has to face the voters every two years. Hopefully our country will have regained its senses by 2022, and she will be rewarded for her courage.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  3. American Thinker apparently had to utterly retract their lies about the Dominion voting machines being rigged. Of course, they did so on a side blog under the headline link “Statement” so probably very few people read it (online mag equivalent of pg 21 under the used car ads?). But it interesting.

    Nic (896fdf)

  4. Information about the rioting continues to come out. This account is from the Washington Post:

    Rioters who had scaled the scaffolding were on an upper terrace pelting officers with debris from above. Others were hitting them from below, armed with metal poles ripped from scaffolding, wooden 2-by-4 boards, bats, sledgehammers, table legs and 50-pound fire extinguishers. The mob erected a barricade from the debris, using bleacher and scaffolding parts to block officers from moving along the upper terrace.

    Police had exhausted their chemical munitions, which Glover said had done little to slow the attackers, and rioters inside maneuvered through the many passageways, only to suddenly appear in the middle of police lines, causing further havoc.

    “As we’re pushing, literally foot by foot, we were taking law enforcement injuries, serious in nature,” Glover said.

    I guess like in any battle different things were happening in different places. I keep seeing commenters on some blogs (looking at you The American Conservative) who keep insisting the riot was “mostly peaceful”, and that that rioters were invited in, based on isolated images and accounts from other places at other times. But it’s clear that in some locations it was a serious pitched battle.

    Victor (4959fb)

  5. I think that even in a strongly pro-Trump state like Wyoming, there are enough Trump voters who were put off by Trump’s post-election behavior, assuming the recent national polls of Trump’s approval ratings among GOPers are roughly representative with the GOP base in Wyoming. The most recent Pew poll I think has Trump’s approval numbers at 29%, and only 60% approval among Republicans. I think the recent polls shows that except for Trump’s hard core base, most of the rest of Trump’s voters have moved on. There is still a lot of time left until the GOP congressional primaries, and I think there will be enough support for Cheney to be fend off a Trumpy challenger. And in a general election, I think that there will be a good number of Trump supporters who despite not liking her impeachment vote, are just not willing to ditch her and allow a House seat to flip from R to D. Especially given the GOP only needs 5 more seats to win the majority in 2022.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/01/15/biden-begins-presidency-with-positive-ratings-trump-departs-with-lowest-ever-job-mark/

    HCI (92ea66)

  6. Even some sort of military flyover has been suggested, they said.

    Give him a “military flyover” like Soleimani’s.

    Dave (1bb933)

  7. I have some ideas about that 21-gun salute, too.

    nk (1d9030)

  8. What I mean to say is that it should not happen until after indictment, trial, conviction, and one appeal as of right. We are not a banana republic.

    nk (1d9030)

  9. tragic accidents occur all too frequently in military like settings mr nk

    Dave (1bb933)

  10. To be believe Azar, he had to think about it for nine days before his conscience won out and quit because of the insurrection. It had nothing to do with yesterday’s news about the lies he told about the reserve supply of vaccine, right? He should’ve been tossed after his departments, CDC and FDA, completely botched the development of Covid tests, costing us an important month (and lives) in the early stages of the pandemic. He must’ve given Trump many loyalty offerings to stay employed.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  11. So in 40 to 45 years, will we see a Kurdish flag at one of these hootenannys?

    urbanleftbehind (b9fe45)

  12. The final Kraken lawsuit comes to a merciful end, and probably to save the Powell-Wood super team from getting sanctioned.

    A slate of Republican “shadow electors” who tried to cast electoral votes for Donald Trump in Michigan dropped their lawsuit seeking to overturn the state’s election results on Friday. The voluntary dismissal of the case puts an end to the first of the infamously inept “Kraken” lawsuits filed by right-wing attorneys Sidney Powell and Lin Wood.

    The lawsuit—filed against Gov. Gretchen Whitmer and Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson—alleged that President-elect Joe Biden only won the popular vote because tens of thousands of ballots were forged. It further claimed that ballot canvassing observers were prevented from being able to meaningfully oversee the counting of votes.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  13. There are as many National Guardsmen in the nation’s capitol as there are US Army soldiersin all NATO countries combined.

    That should serve as a military feel to the departure.

    Another James (d4ce6c)

  14. Leaked Parler Data Points to Users at Police Stations, U.S. Military Bases
    Location data gleaned from thousands of videos posted on the social network Parler and extracted in the days before Amazon restricted access to app this week, reveal its users included police officers around the U.S. and service members stationed on bases at home and abroad.

    The presence on Parler of active military and police raises concerns, experts said, about their potential exposure to far-right conspiracy theories and extremist ideologies enabled by the platform’s practically nonexistent moderation and its stated openness to hate speech. Military officials have long considered infiltration and recruitment by white supremacist groups a threat. Groups that endorsed a wide range of racist beliefs appear to have been operating openly on Parler, the experts said,
    with the de facto permission of its owners. The FBI has likewise raised concerns over law enforcement agents adopting radical views and being recruited—viewing their access to secured buildings, elected officials, and other VIPs as a singular threat.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  15. Why veterans of the military and law enforcement joined the Capitol insurrection
    ………
    Many rioters also had something else in common as they sought to upend the government in an insurrection that bristled with Confederate flags, racist symbols and conspiracy theories: They were ex-members of the military and police or actively employed by the armed services and law enforcement.

    “It’s an incredibly disturbing trend,” retired U.S. Army Col. Jeffrey D. McCausland, a professor of national security at Dickinson College and former dean at the U.S. Army War College, said in an interview. “These are people who are supposed to uphold the Constitution and the law, yet they were doing the exact opposite.”
    ………
    In the attack’s aftermath, researchers and federal investigators have raised questions about how and why so many of those sworn to uphold the Constitution have become involved with dangerous extremist groups.

    Kurt Braddock, a professor at American University who has written extensively on extremist groups, said that in recent years greater numbers of ex-military and law enforcement members are becoming involved with extremist groups, which he said provide “a sense of identity and direction.”

    “Their past experiences were almost entirely based on being part of a collective unit designed to protect something. The propaganda of the far right makes this same promise — that you can find brotherhood and belonging in a group with a purpose,” Braddock said.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  16. THE COPS AT THE CAPITOL
    As of today, at least 26 sworn members of U.S. law enforcement agencies from at least 11 states have been identified by law enforcement agencies and local reporting as attendees of the Jan. 6 rally in support of President Trump that sparked a riot at the U.S. Capitol. [Update, Jan. 15, 6:05 p.m., Eastern time: Three more law enforcement officials, including one prosecutor and one volunteer deputy, have been reported as having attended the rally, bringing the total to 32 individuals from 15 states.] Beyond that tally, several former law enforcement agents attended the rally, and still more current law enforcement officials are under investigation for making statements in support of the rally.

    A review of police attendance and support appears below and is also available in this spreadsheet, which will be updated as more information becomes available……..
    ……..
    A complete list of law enforcement statements in support of the rally is available on this spreadsheet.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  17. Conspiracy theories and a call for patriots entice veterans at the Capitol
    ……..
    A Washington Post analysis of individuals who breached the Capitol or were in the vicinity of the riots identified 21 people with some prior military service background. Of the 72 arrested or charged by state and federal authorities through Thursday morning, 11 have military backgrounds.

    The military personnel and veterans involved in the demonstrations and riot at the Capitol range in age from 33 to 62. A handful of the veterans served in combat or with front-line infantry units in the Army and Marine Corps and spoke regularly of a coming revolution or the need for violent action to purge their country of unspecified enemies. Other veterans at the Capitol on Jan. 6 served for only short stints in the military or were focused more on clerical tasks than preparing for combat. Like many at the riots, they were swept up in conspiracy theories that have taken hold among some of Trump’s most fervent supporters and felt called to action by the president’s repeated insistence without evidence that the election had been stolen.
    ………
    “The president has created a permission structure [for troops and veterans],” said Katrina Mulligan, the managing director for national security and international policy at the Center for American Progress. “They believe that they are doing what he wants them to do. . . . He’s the commander in chief; the person they’ve been taught more than any other person is the ultimate authority.”
    ……..
    The desire to be seen as superpatriots defending the country from internal threats is a recurrent theme in the statements and social media posts of veterans arrested in the riots.
    ……….
    Among the chilling questions from last week’s riot is how many veterans with combat training are committed to using their skills in defense of their delusional beliefs. ……..
    ………

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  18. urbanleftbehind (b9fe45) — 1/16/2021 @ 6:20 am

    My very good friend, and her parents escaped the Communism described in that article. Although I am informed mainly by her personal accounts, rather than independent researchers, I find her to be a highly credible witness and consider the article you linked to be an earnest effort to gaslight those Vietnamese who would, otherwise, support their brethren in common goal against all elements of Communism.

    Here’s a weak* example (bold mine):

    But to community advocates who saw the South Vietnamese flag, or the Yellow Flag, as a symbol of democracy and unity, its presence at a riot was both alarming and infuriating.

    “The ideas of authoritarianism, of overturning the people’s will, are not the principles that this flag stands for,” said Tung Nguyen, president of the Progressive Vietnamese American Organization, or PIVOT. “It’s about us being free, and Trump is not someone you can be free under. White supremacy is not something you can be free under.”

    You see, community advocates [are they Vietnamese?] were alarmed and infuriated. Should the reader be of a like mind? Progressive president links Trump and White supremacy, do you really want to be a party to that?

    There are more, but I leave that to other readers to identify, or ignore, as it may please them.

    * I leave the strong examples for others to note, that they may stand out all the more.

    felipe (630e0b)

  19. felipe (630e0b) — 1/16/2021 @ 7:40 am

    Gahh! I left out that the gaslighter talks about White supremacy as being the problem, not Communism.

    felipe (630e0b)

  20. An inauguration behind razor wire tells me the wheels are coming off.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  21. I hope that there’s a band for the Trump farewell at the airport. I have some ideas for the playlist.

    Fred (00ef70)

  22. But the number switching is far higher than in the same time period following the 2016 presidential election.

    I’d be interested in knowing the number leaving the party after the 2016 primaries and/or convention.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  23. I have some ideas for the playlist.

    Did Bozo have a theme song?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  24. Of course Trump’s Election Fraud Hoax was premeditated. It was always about Trump over country, willing to risk a coup attempt to make it happen.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  25. “If you’re in leadership, you can vote your conscience, but you can’t get up there and make it harder for the members of your team by giving talking points to the opponents,” one member told The Hill.

    Not having a conscience should be a requirement for the leadership, I guess.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  26. Mr. Moxon takes us down presidential memory lane, and the whole thread is hi-flipping-larious. This made me lol, and I hardly ever lol at these things.

    “Am I wrong or did the president of the United States sit behind a truck just like a big boy and make honk honk sounds? Was that a real one or did I just … OK he did? He did. Good. OK.”

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  27. Did Bozo have a theme song?
    Yes.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  28. I have some ideas for the playlist.

    Tell us. Don’t be shy.

    Radegunda (bd00e5)

  29. felipe (630e0b) — 1/16/2021 @ 7:44 am

    I had a similar take. It seemed the entire point of the article.

    And it could have been done that much better. Claiming “Trump is not someone you can be free under” just begs the question of what’s been happening for the last 4 years? Leaving it in draws attention to the agitprop.

    frosty (f27e97)

  30. Jenna Ryan, ultimate MAGA karen.

    Private-jetting in to participate in domestic terrorism & then requesting a pardon is the ultimate “I’d like to speak to the manager”

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  31. Victor (4959fb) — 1/16/2021 @ 1:33 am

    who keep insisting the riot was “mostly peaceful”

    I don’t read that blog and I’m not a mind reader so I’m going out on a limb here. I suspect that they don’t just mean it was literally mostly peaceful. Now, this is where I might be getting out over my skies but I think they are mocking people who called the riots this past year, that caused more deaths, injuries, and property damage in total, mostly peaceful. Or people who called chaz/chop mostly peaceful.

    I’ll agree it’s a questionable analogy. I didn’t see anyone standing in front of a burning building and calling it mostly peaceful during the capital riot. I also don’t see piles of money being donated to the capital rioters or VP candidates fundraising for their bail.

    frosty (f27e97)

  32. I also don’t see piles of money being donated to the capital rioters or VP candidates fundraising for their bail.

    “Friendship: A ship big enough for two in fair weather, but only one in foul.” ― Ambrose Bierce, The Unabridged Devil’s Dictionary

    nk (1d9030)

  33. No. There’s not a reserve stockpile.

    I’m more interested in the math side of this than getting emotional about lies.

    If X doses were ordered to supply over Y time has that changed? The reserve was included in the X, it wasn’t another X doses. Why did anyone anticipate having 2X in the same Y time?

    frosty (f27e97)

  34. Wyoming GOP on Cheney via Shipwreckedcrew on Redstate:
    “There has not been a time during our tenure when we have seen this type of an outcry from our fellow Republicans, with the anger and frustration being palpable in the comments we have received. Our telephone has not stopped ringing, our email is filling up, and our website has seen more traffic than at any previous time. The consensus is clear that those who are reaching out to the Party vehemently disagree with Representative Cheney’s decision and actions.

    We as a Party respect our elected officials and assume that they will respect and represent their constituents. We are receiving the message loud and clear that what happened yesterday is a true travesty for Wyoming and the country.”

    Add this to the fact that Cheney never has lived in Wyoming (she bought a house in Jackson Hole in 2012) and its likely she’ll face a primary challenge and lose.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  35. The AP story about Dorothy Schmidt Cole which Dana linked to is really poorly written, even by the grossly lax standards of the AP. Better to read the longer story in the Charlotte Observer which gives a great deal of insight into a remarkable life and includes some nice pictures, including one taken this year. She met her husband during the War, they married when it had ended, moved to Silicon Valley, and her husband sadly died of a heart attack inside of a decade later, leaving her with a two-year daughter. She spent the last 65 years of her life as a widow. Apparently she cast a ballot in this fall’s election, though the Observer reporter had the good sense either not to inquire or else not to divulge the candidate for whom Sgt. Cole voted.

    My guess is that the Marine Corps kept women like Sgt. Cole on the ground because they worried that the female pilots would forget where they parked the planes.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  36. My guess is that the Marine Corps kept women like Sgt. Cole on the ground is because they worried that the female pilots would forget where they parked the planes.
    JVW (ee64e4) — 1/16/2021 @ 11:09 am

    Felipe: I’m not with that guy! [whispers] Run dude!

    felipe (630e0b)

  37. Scottish law appears to have provisions where a person can be forced to prove they came by their money legally. I think any system where the government can put the burden of proof on the accused is a deeply flawed one.

    It appears that people are try to get this flawed and unjust law applied to the Trump organization.

    While I think Trump is human garbage this action is inherently unjust. I’m glad it’s not legal here.

    The legislative mechanism is designed to target suspected corrupt foreign officials who have potentially laundered stolen money through the UK. If the subject of an order, or their family, is unable to show a legitimate source for their wealth, authorities can apply to a court to seize their properties.

    Mr O’Neill said that under the section 396A of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, the decision of whether to seek, or not to seek, an UWO was “a matter only for the Scottish ministers,” adding that that there was no legal basis for the government not to explain its position on whether or not it was looking into or considering seeking an UWO.

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  38. @steveg@34 Too many times we hear politicians say “I voted for BadThing because I need to stay in to take the important vote against ReallyBadThing when the time comes” and in the end, they never take a risky vote in their entire career. Maybe this was Liz Ceney’s vote against ReallyBadThing. And good for her. She would’ve known that it was going to be a tough vote for her with her constituents and that she was risking her job in doing, but she knew it was the right thing and did it anyway. Good. For. Her.

    Nic (896fdf)

  39. On Vaccine:
    The Feds have their share of problems, but the state and local governments have been awful and have consistently blamed the Feds for their own incompetence.
    Go here and click on the state to see how many people are getting a second dose. The states roll outs have been so slow that the next 15 days will eat up first dose stockpiles as second dose. (assuming they haven’t also f-ed up the second dose rollout as badly as the first)
    The feds have to meter the supply of a perishable vaccine because the worst thing that could happen is to send CA 1.5M more doses and see them spoil.
    Its easy to blame the feds and that is fine, but the same rigorous challenge needs to be pointed to the large blue cities that hired public health officials based on race, transexuality, Koala furry… in otherwords they searched for unicorns to hire rather than competent, intelligent professionals and its not the fault of the transexual, Koala furry Latinx who checked all the boxes for hiring… it is the fault of whoever crafted the job search to try to find the rarest of rare, dimly credentialed OK.

    The blame games always remind me of Ollie North who pivoted to blaming Wm Casey for everything Iran Contra related… after Casey died. The body wasn’t even cold before North was claiming the whole thing was done by orders from the deceased.
    Katrina was different but still involved dead people and blame and it all became the Presidents fault. People in the media hammered the federal response, but the State and Locals had left way too many people for the Feds to handle quickly and too many inert minded people jump over the local leaders to blame the person at the top.
    Trump right now is the lamest of lame ducks. His staff and cabinet are jumping out the scuppers. In four days the savior will rise again in the form of Slow Joe Biden and Weathervane Harris. The virus will recognize it is vanquished, the country will reopen, everyone will get vaccinated by Joe and K and all will be well again for all the elite, smartest people who don’t know anyone that owns a pickup truck or zip ties or (shudder) those whose pant crease is non existent and can be smelled in Walmart.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  40. norcal @ 2,

    Thanks! I appreciate it.

    Dana (cc9481)

  41. My guess is that the Marine Corps kept women like Sgt. Cole on the ground because they worried that the female pilots would forget where they parked the planes.

    JVW


    My guess is that the Marine Corps kept women like Sgt. Cole on the ground because they didn’t want to risk being shown up by a little slip of a woman.

    FTFY.

    Dana (cc9481)

  42. @Time@37 IANAL. This is a genuine statement based on what might be a broad misunderstanding about how legal confiscation works, but isn’t that basically what US civil asset forfeiture is?

    Nic (896fdf)

  43. steveg (43b7a5) — 1/16/2021 @ 11:06 am,

    Liz Cheney followed her conscience with courage and conviction. She knew the political risk she was taking, and yet, because not doing the right thing was not possible for her, she did what was right.

    Once upon a time, the Republican Party would have admired someone who stood by right, no matter what it might cost politically.

    Once upon a time, the Republican Party would have applauded a sitting member of Congress pushing back against a sitting president what had attempted to overthrow an election, and who idly sat by and watched as the Capitol was breached and ransacked.

    Once upon a time, the Republican Party would have pushed for elected leaders – including a sitting president – to assume responsibility for their actions. But no longer.

    So why am I supposed to care about what Wyoming (or any state) GOP thinks? As they say, they’ve shot their wad.

    Dana (cc9481)

  44. Pardons:

    Carter, Clinton and Obama pardoned Puerto Ricans who shot up the House.
    Clinton pardoned Linda Evans who was a previously convicted felon involved in bombing the Senate, fled prosecution for two years and when finally caught had weapons and 740 lbs of dynamite as a convicted felon. I think she only did 16 years.
    She now is an important figure in the BLM.

    So pardoning Bannon may be wrong, I don’t now the totality of the facts to make that decision, but I do know that this pardon by Clinton stinks worse than pardoning Bannon or Manafort would, if only because the bar has already been set at the bottom of the cesspool

    steveg (43b7a5)

  45. Add this to the fact that Cheney never has lived in Wyoming (she bought a house in Jackson Hole in 2012) and its likely she’ll face a primary challenge and lose.

    18 months is a long time, and a lot of criminal and corrupt things Trump did will come out in the meantime.

    Also, it is untrue that she has never lived in Wyoming prior to 2012.

    Dave (1bb933)

  46. #43 Agree somewhat.
    But her constituency isn’t Northern VA where she has lived for her entire life, so her actual constituents in Wyoming might be excused for thinking she was simply voting her Northern VA values not theirs.
    If she’d been very strong in protecting rights of her constituents in other things, maybe they’d have seen her as wrong on impeachment, but independent. Her vacation home in Jackson Hole works against her because she doesn’t really even know many non politician Wyoming natives. Shes an absentee dynasty representative and as such needs to vote the will of her constituents or lose.
    I’m not inside her head, so I don’t know if she was acting out of principle or out of Nortern VA ethos or both

    steveg (43b7a5)

  47. She lived in WY as a kid:

    Cheney attended part of sixth and seventh grade in Casper, Wyoming, while her father campaigned for Congress. The family split time between Casper and Washington, D.C., in the 1970s through the 1980s following her father’s election to Congress

    Dana (cc9481)

  48. @steveg@46 What do you mean when you say “Norther Virginia ethos?”

    Nic (896fdf)

  49. I don’t think you need to be from Northern Virginia to understand that making false claims of election fraud, attempting to coerce election officials into “finding” votes for you, and inciting a mob to sack the Capitol are all inconsistent with the president’s oath and responsibility to see that the laws are faithfully executed.

    Dave (1bb933)

  50. #45

    You are right. I should never have used the word never. Wikipedia shows that after living in Madison, Wisconsin she attended part of sixth grade and all of seventh on Casper, Wyoming and was married in a ceremony in Wyoming.
    She undoubtably spent some House recesses there, from 8th grade on she was schooled exclusively in the DC area, went to college in Colorado, got her JD at U Chicago and returned to DC.
    At the age of 46, she bought a vacation home in Jackson Hole.

    Trump got 8000 more votes than she did in 2020. Which in practice meant that when Wyoming Republicans looked down ballot at her name they opted for someone with no chance at all.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  51. Andy biggs, paul gosar and mo brooks had better read the penalties for violating the 14th amendment section 3 of the constitution for helping seditionists and insurrectionists find out where nancy pelosi and AOC’s offices in the capital are. Paul gosars own family say he is loathsome and unfit for office.

    asset (ca3beb)

  52. Frosty,

    Those describing the riot as mostly peaceful don’t seem to be necessarily attempting irony. It’s usually accompanied by the claim the police invited the rioters in. There is a strong effort by some Trump supporters to push the idea that the riot was nothing more than an ordinary demonstration and that those involved in actually trespassing the Capitol were innocent dupes of antifa and the police.

    Interesting that you mention CHAZ/CHOP. I lived near it last summer and visited the space every day for its last two weeks (though not at night). It was in fact mostly peaceful. Unfortunately as many have pointed out, mostly peaceful doesn’t excuse criminal negligence and the fact that, at least for the last homicide, some of the people ostensibly involved in CHOP were probably involved.

    Victor (4959fb)

  53. #48 The ethos of the people that go to Walmart down state and can smell the Trump supporters.
    You want people to dig in their heels? Sniff at them. Point of view, Culture.

    #49 Clearly the people of Wyoming looked at the facts and came to a different conclusion.
    They are not stupid or evil, (brainwashed by Trump counts as stupid and they are not) so what is it that makes them upset enough to threaten to oust her? Maybe they see something you don’t.
    Maybe they backed Trump because he got the regulators off their backs and that was enough to make them overlook his personality flaws. I don’t have time to go up and ask in person right now and the media would go up and pick the craziest interviewee they can find, but I am confident their support is entirely reasonable from a Wyoming ethos.

    Cheney can stick to her guns and the Wyoming GOP can stick to theirs. I’m not going to apply nobilty to either.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  54. Liz Cheney followed her conscience with courage and conviction.

    She checked in w/Darth Daddy first which is hardly ‘conviction.’ And a week before her party’s CIC is leaving office anyway certainly ain’t ‘courage.’ Doubt she can be primary challenged in rural Red Wyoming but in a ‘leadership’ post of the general party where 74-plus million opposes her POV, she’s pretty much a paper tiger now.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  55. 20.An inauguration behind razor wire tells me the wheels are coming off.

    Been there; done that. This is what happens when you have ratings chasing cable news editors under 30 years old and teleprompter reading Jake-The-Tappers playing at being genuine journalists.

    1968 Riots, Washington D.C – YouTube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMXVfDnIH-8

    For a few days in 1968 parts of Washington looked like a war zone. It was the first weekend of April, and the nation’s capital was burning.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  56. Cheney can stick to her guns and the Wyoming GOP can stick to theirs.

    Indeed, it appears there’s no room for honesty, decency or the rule of law in the fascist personality cult that was once the Republican party.

    Dave (1bb933)

  57. @steveg@53 Snobby? Class-conscious?

    Nic (896fdf)

  58. “While I think Trump is human garbage this action is inherently unjust. I’m glad it’s not legal here.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U.S._Currency

    Davethulhu (95ea9f)

  59. She checked in w/Darth Daddy first which is hardly ‘conviction.’

    Typical stupid comment.

    Dave (1bb933)

  60. Virginia man arrested at inauguration security checkpoint in possession of gun, 500 rounds ammo and unauthorized credential, police say
    ……..
    Wesley Allen Beeler, 31, of Front Royal, drove his Ford F-150 up to a checkpoint on E Street Northeast of the Capitol, where he was met by Capitol Police officers, according to the court documents.

    Beeler is facing charges stemming from unlawful possession of weapons and ammunition.
    …….
    Beeler appeared in D.C. Superior Court on Saturday afternoon, where a judge ordered him released on personal recognizance and issued a stay-away order from the District. Beeler is not allowed to return to the city except to appear in court or meet with his lawyer.

    U.S. Capitol police said in charging papers that Beeler presented them with what appeared to be an credential to enter the area, but an officer determined he was “not authorized to enter the restricted area.”
    ……..

    As his credential was being checked, another officer noted bumper stickers on the truck’s windows, which read, “Assault Life” and “If they come for your guns giv ‘em your bullets first,” police said.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  61. A stressful week ahead:

    A Virginia man who showed police an unauthorized inauguration credential at a checkpoint along the perimeter securing downtown Washington, D.C., ahead of Inauguration Day was arrested after a gun and hundreds of rounds of ammunition were found in his vehicle, police said.

    Wesley Allen Beeler, of Front Royal, pulled up to a security checkpoint at North Capitol Street and E Street Northwest about 6:30 p.m. Friday in a white Ford 150 truck with Virginia tags and gun-related decals, according to U.S. Capitol Police records…

    A gun with a high-capacity magazine inserted and ammunition were found in the vehicle, police said. The gun was not registered in Washington, D.C., police said.

    Police say they also found “509 9MM rounds of hollow point & ball ammunition” and 21 12-guage shotgun shells.

    Dana (cc9481)

  62. steveg-

    Clinton never pardoned anyone named Linda Evans.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  63. Clinton pardons.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  64. Nic (896fdf) — 1/16/2021 @ 12:06 pm

    but isn’t that basically what US civil asset forfeiture is?

    I don’t know the details on the Scottish law but to the spirit of your question, yes. Technically, with civil asset forfeiture the accused doesn’t have to prove something in the sense that you mean because the owner isn’t the accused. The action is against the property, in rem, and in theory it’s the property that’s been accused. The owner of the property is then required, if he wants to retain ownership, to dispute this under a different burden of proof because it’s a civil and not a criminal.

    frosty (f27e97)

  65. @61 These people aren’t the brightest bulbs.

    Wesley Allen Beeler, of Front Royal, pulled up to a security checkpoint at North Capitol Street and E Street Northwest about 6:30 p.m. Friday in a white Ford 150 truck with Virginia tags and gun-related decals, according to U.S. Capitol Police records.

    The truck Beeler was driving was decorated with firearm decals, including ones that said “Assault Life” and “If they come for your guns, Give ‘Em your bullets first.”

    Purple Haze (34bae0)

  66. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/16/2021 @ 1:58 pm

    As his credential was being checked, another officer noted bumper stickers on the truck’s windows, which read, “Assault Life” and “If they come for your guns giv ‘em your bullets first,” police said.

    This is why you don’t put anything other than an Apple sticker on your car. I’m hoping bypassing this checkpoint isn’t as easy as putting a HRC 2016 sticker on your bumper.

    not authorized to enter the restricted area.

    I hope these guys are doing this in the original German. Papiere, Bitte is much more effective.

    frosty (f27e97)

  67. My guess is that the Marine Corps kept women like Sgt. Cole on the ground because they didn’t want to risk being shown up by a little slip of a woman.

    I bow down to the superior argument and withdraw my comment.

    Though she probably still would have kept her turn signal on throughout the entire flight.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  68. Ivanka’s political future comes into sharper focus
    ……..
    At least three Trump family members are either considering runs for office or being urged to do so, according to well-connected GOP operatives and Trump family allies.

    Top party officials say that Lara Trump, wife of the president’s son Eric, is actively contemplating a run for the Senate in North Carolina, where an open seat awaits in 2022. “It’s real and she is legitimately interested in it,” said one Trump family political adviser.

    The president’s eldest son, Don Jr., is eyeing a future in politics as well, though allies say it’s unclear when or what office he’d seek after he passed on running for the Senate in Wyoming this last cycle. He and his girlfriend Kimberly Guilfoyle have also been scoping out real estate in Florida.

    The newest and most-buzzed about possibility, however, surrounds the president’s daughter Ivanka. The senior White House adviser is set to decamp to Florida after her father’s presidency comes to a close. And though talk of her launching a primary challenge to Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) has given off the faint whiff of political fan-fick, in reality, Trump officials say, there have been machinations behind the scenes.

    One person in contact with the president said that Jared Kushner is viewed as “working single-mindedly to protect and promote his wife’s ‘political career.’” ………
    …….
    And, perhaps most tellingly, in the last week, Steve Bannon, as he was renewing his contacts with Trump himself, began talking up Ivanka’s political resume.

    “The second most fire breathing populist in the White House was Ivanka Trump,” the president’s one-time adviser said on a recent podcast of his. If, Bannon added, Rubio voted for the certification of Joe Biden’s election — and he did — then, “I strongly believe and would strongly recommend that Ivanka Trump immediately…. if she is not going to remain an assistant to the president, she should immediately file and run for the senate and primary Marco Rubio in Florida.”
    …….
    Ivanka Trump is expected to take some time off after leaving the White House, according to one former White House official, and she is currently working on closing out her work, including mitigating the fallout of the riots on Capitol Hill. After that, her family is expected to pack up their home in Washington.
    ………
    Can someone rid us of this troublesome family?

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  69. Clinton never pardoned anyone named Linda Evans.

    Come on, Rip Murdock, don’t use Wikipedia as a comprehensive source.

    Linda Sue Evans was a member of a radical communist group who participated in the attempted 1983 bombing of the Capitol and played a part in the Brinks robbery. Clinton pardoned her on his way out the door.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  70. The Trump mob in their own words.

    These people are screwed up in the head!

    Purple Haze (34bae0)

  71. @69-
    I stand corrected.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  72. @69-
    Then again I don’t care what happened 20 years ago. I care what happens tomorrow, next week, and this year.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  73. Speaking of Wikipedia, if you read Linda Sue Evans’ Wiki entry, it doesn’t sound as if she is all that remorseful for her past actions. Another great pardon from the ever-sleazy Bubba, who must have owed one of his old radical Yale Law buddies a favor.

    It would actually be quite interesting for someone to interview her and ask her what she thinks of the January 6 crew. Does she see them as kindred spirits, fighting an unjust system on behalf of the people whom it marginalizes, or does she see them as icky right-wingers who support the Orange Glow Worm? That would tell us a lot about how logical and sincere her beliefs truly are.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  74. Guardsmen stationed at U.S. Capitol building to get cots
    The National Guardsmen providing security in the U.S. Capitol ahead of the inauguration are soon getting cots, after images went viral last week of troops sleeping on the floor in the halls of Congress, according to four people familiar with the decision.

    Guard spokesman Wayne Hall confirmed Saturday that Federal Emergency Management Agency received a formal request through the D.C. Emergency Operations Center for more than 1,200 cots “to provide comfort for members of the National Guard supporting law enforcement and the upcoming presidential inauguration in D.C.”
    ……..
    Many officials believe the cots are unnecessary, but the photos of Guardsmen resting on the floor of the Capitol quickly became a “PR issue,” the person said — particularly after more than a dozen House Democrats called Thursday on the Army Secretary to send cots, bedding, shower facilities and other resources.

    “Most everyone’s opinion is that we honestly don’t need them,” the person said, noting that “this is one of the nicest napping spots most of us have ever had in uniform.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  75. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/16/2021 @ 2:27 pm

    Can someone rid us of this troublesome family?

    That is an insightful reference and to switch to fiction; good, strike him down with all your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

    You also need to start working up some sort of Большой террор.

    frosty (f27e97)

  76. “this is one of the nicest napping spots most of us have ever had in uniform.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/16/2021 @ 2:38 pm

    Naked napping is always nicer.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  77. enough to make them overlook his personality flaws.

    Conservatives used to understand that extreme selfishness and petty vindictiveness and congenital dishonesty are not just “personality” flaws, but defects of character, and that a combination of such defects in conjunction with great power is likely to cause damage that outweighs policy wins.

    Trump has demonstrated the truth of that principle with stark clarity. The people of Wyoming are not seeing anything the rest of us do not – unless you think that buying into conspiratorial lies is actually “seeing” something. For the most part, the people who are angry at Cheney decided they would rather have a coup to keep a psychopathic narcissist in power than allow Democrats to hold the presidency for a few years.

    Radegunda (bd00e5)

  78. So, a guy is arrested in Dc at a “checkpoint” with what a Glock and enough ammunition to not run out with. Also, some fake inauguration credentials. But when I read:

    He was charged with possession of an unregistered firearm, possession of unregistered ammunition, possession of a large-capacity magazine and other crimes.

    I thought: “None of these are crimes where I live.” And I wonder how long that will be true.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  79. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/16/2021 @ 2:33 pm

    Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards. — Søren Kierkegaard

    You have to know the past to understand the present. — Carl Sagan

    And Marcus always has something good to say:

    Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present. — Marcus Aurelius

    Now, if you’ve let your emotions control you and you disregard reason as simply something that chips away at cherished beliefs then, maybe, have some concerns for the future.

    frosty (f27e97)

  80. Headline: Vice President-elect Harris will be sworn in by Justice Sonia Sotomayor

    The symbolism works several ways, I think.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  81. Lou Dobbs unwittingly points out the core problem of today’s Republican Party:

    You had me at “unwittingly”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. Biden plans dozens of executive orders for early days of presidency
    ……..
    After being sworn in on Wednesday, Biden will rescind the travel ban on several majority-Muslim countries, rejoin the Paris climate accords, extend limits on student loan payments and evictions instituted during the pandemic and issue a mask mandate on federal properties and for interstate travel. …….
    …….
    On Biden’s second day in office, he will sign executive actions focused on addressing the Covid-19 pandemic, including ways to help schools and business reopen safely, expand testing, protect workers and establish clearer public health standards. The next day, Biden will direct his Cabinet to work on delivering economic relief to families most affected by the crisis.

    In subsequent days, Biden will expand “Buy America provisions,” take action to advance “equity and support communities of color,” begin to reform the criminal justice, expand access to healthcare and work toward reuniting families separated at the border.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  83. Trump has requested a large sendoff to be planned for the morning of Jan. 20, sources said

    Hey, Nixon got a big sendoff.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  84. Headline: Vice President-elect Harris will be sworn in by Justice Sonia Sotomayor

    Remember when the Obama Administration leaked a letter from Lawrence Tribe urging Dear Leader not to appoint Sotomayor because she wasn’t bright enough or congenial enough to build consensus for progressive opinions? I completely agree that it is entirely fitting that she swears in Kamala Harris.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  85. I was wrong last night, it wasn’t 380,000 dead yesterday, it was 390,000. It is 395,000 today, will be more than 400,000 monday, will be over 500,000 by the end of Feb were it should peak, and the rate should flatten then drop by June 1st at 600,000, ending the year at 750,000, with herd immunity via vaccination limiting daily death tolls to a few dozen a day. September is when normal looks like 2019…probably.

    Oh, by the way, Pfizer was kind of confused when Azar claimed the feds had second doses on hand on Tuesday. They were also confused when he said the feds had shipped out all the second doses yesterday. Because neither were true, Pfizer has them in a warehouse and has had no direction from the federal government as to what to do with them, when, and where to ship them.

    It’s almost like the Trump admin has absolutely no fecking clue as to what they’re doing. It’s worse than the right hand not knowing what the left is doing, they don’t know what hands are, or directions, or what “knowing” means.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  86. That is an insightful reference and to switch to fiction; good, strike him down with all your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

    Sometimes the jokes just write themselves. My journey is away from the dark (the last four years) to a more hopeful light.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  87. Location data gleaned from thousands of videos posted on the social network Parler and extracted in the days before Amazon restricted access to app this week, reveal its users included police officers around the U.S. and service members stationed on bases at home and abroad.

    Remember this when they babble on about their “privacy rights.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  88. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/16/2021 @ 2:45 pm

    Same here.

    I also saw

    Police say they also found “509 9MM rounds of hollow point & ball ammunition” and 21 12-guage shotgun shells.

    In the article with

    A gun with a high-capacity magazine inserted

    and wondered what they’re calling high-capacity and why they’re calling out inserted. I know what conclusion I’m supposed to draw but I can keep a bit of ammo in my car (not a truck. and I’ve got the approved stickers. don’t profile me bro) and 21 rounds of 12 gauge is basically 2 boxes.

    frosty (f27e97)

  89. From RIp’s #16:

    “LAPD officer confirmed to attend rally, not the riot” FBI Notified

    Ever hear of the 1st Amendment Rip? Shame on whoever did this.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  90. Beyond that tally, several former law enforcement agents attended the rally, and still more current law enforcement officials are under investigation for making statements in support of the rally.

    The people who should be fired are those who investigate people for exercising their civil rights.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  91. Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/16/2021 @ 2:54 pm

    Thanks for providing the links in your comments. That article seems to contradict information in the article you provided last night.

    frosty (f27e97)

  92. Then again I don’t care what happened 20 years ago. I care what happens tomorrow, next week, and this year.

    Ignoring history does make argument easier, I’ll admit.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  93. Remember when the Obama Administration leaked a letter from Lawrence Tribe urging Dear Leader not to appoint Sotomayor

    Yes.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  94. My father (USAFret) can fall asleep wearing a suit and tie standing up with one shoulder against a stone column while next to a large church organ that is CURRENTLY PLAYING. I have a former sergeant friend who I once nudged awake in the gym during a pep-rally while the marching band was playing and all the students were cheering. We were sitting straight up on bleachers and I thought I was going to go deaf. Military people can sleep anywhere.

    I’m not against the cots though.

    Nic (896fdf)

  95. and wondered what they’re calling high-capacity

    The standard 17-round 9mm magazine.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  96. @Kevin@90 I believe I posted a while ago that I believe that people shouldn’t be fired for who they associated with during non-work hours if they weren’t doing anything illegal. I believe I was scoffed at. I still believe that people shouldn’t be fired for who they associate with during non-work hours if they weren’t doing anything illegal.

    Nic (896fdf)

  97. Pushed to the edge by the Capitol riot, people are reporting their family and friends to the FBI
    ……..
    (Leslie, a ) politically liberal 35-year-old cried about the screenshots from her mother’s Facebook page, posts defending the pro-Trump crowds and suggesting that Leslie’s mom made it at least to the Capitol’s steps. Then she reported her mom to the FBI — because “actions,” she said, “should have consequences.”
    …….
    In relationships already strained or severed, last week’s violent spectacle of democracy under siege has pushed some people to take a drastic new step: warning law enforcement. Anguished Americans are turning in friends and family for their alleged involvement in the Capitol riots, contributing to more than 100,000 tips submitted to the FBI and playing a role in at least one high-profile arrest.
    …….
    Increasingly estranged friends and relatives told The Washington Post they were driven to law enforcement by their own politics, a sense of moral obligation and a fear of what their loved ones could do next.

    “They left me no choice because they are on such a destructive path and I do worry about other people’s safety as well as theirs,” said a Texas woman who recounted learning through social media that family members were on the Capitol lawn, apparently beyond the barriers that rioters toppled. Her husband said he can corroborate that she informed the FBI.
    ……
    Another woman said she informed the FBI about a former friend — estranged because of her increasingly radical politics — who appears in video close to the overrun Capitol, shouting toward police: “Traitor! Traitor Traitor!” The ex-friend, a California attorney named Leigh Dundas, also posted video of herself telling a crowd the day before the Capitol chaos that “we would be well within our rights” to take traitorous Americans “out back and shoot ‘em or hang ‘em.”
    ……..

    “What she said about killing people … she was talking about me.”

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  98. Famous people hospitalized this past week for laughing their asses off:
    — Rex Tillerson
    — Jim Mattis
    — Jeff Session
    — Bob Corker
    — Jeff Flake
    — Stormy Daniels
    Your own additions welcome.

    nk (1d9030)

  99. “Traitor! Traitor Traitor!” The ex-friend, a California attorney named Leigh Dundas, also posted video of herself telling a crowd the day before the Capitol chaos that “we would be well within our rights” to take traitorous Americans “out back and shoot ‘em or hang ‘em.”

    Don’t you care about the violation of Dundas Esquiress’s privacy, Rip?

    nk (1d9030)

  100. KM@90-

    Law enforcement should be and is held to higher standards, given they have the power of life and death over the public they serve. Do you think a cop who is also a member of the Klan would be able to patrol a community that is majority African-American can treat its citizens with the respect they deserve rather each person as a suspect? Given the history of policing probably not.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  101. Don’t you care about the violation of Dundas Esquiress’s privacy, Rip?

    Given that a major newspaper printed her name, and she is all over Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube, and a public anti-mask activist in Southern California, no.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  102. Exactly. I sympathize with Kevin’s argument, but these selfie-posters wanted to be known. It’s not like they sent a private message which was hacked.

    nk (1d9030)

  103. @98-
    Michael Cohen
    Any woman who is suing DJT

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  104. @JVW,

    You’ll enjoy this.

    lurker (59504c)

  105. Nic (896fdf) — 1/16/2021 @ 3:24 pm

    No scoffing here. I’d call that exactly right. But the Cartman’s can’t exercise their authoritah if everyone thinks that. There have got to be consequences!

    frosty (f27e97)

  106. You’ll enjoy this.

    Indeed, I did! Thanks for passing it along. Remy never fails to crack me up. He’s to these days like Paul Shanklin was to the Clinton Era.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  107. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/16/2021 @ 3:25 pm

    I’m to lazy to lookup the original German

    In 1933, the Nazis issued a decree that required Germans to turn in anyone who spoke against the party, its leaders, or the government (see reading, Outlawing the Opposition in Chapter 5). That decree, “For the Defense against Malicious Attacks against the Government”

    frosty (f27e97)

  108. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/16/2021 @ 2:56 pm

    My journey is away from the dark (the last four years) to a more hopeful light.

    Little Ani thought the same thing. But there was the sand, and the sand people, the mean Jedi who denied him his life partner #lovewins, and pretty soon he was killing younglings.

    frosty (f27e97)

  109. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/16/2021 @ 3:34 pm

    That is how дело врачей worked. Once you can group some people, assign a label, and make an accusation you don’t really need to deal in details. After all, anyone going to a Trump rally is really KKK. What more evidence do you need.

    frosty (f27e97)

  110. Reasonable minds may differ over which Trump lies are the notable, but Daniel Dale, a Trump lie aficionado if there is one, makes a persuasive case for his selections.

    The only entry I have any issue with is the Ilhan Omar al Qaeda one. Sure, what Trump said was false, but I’d call it more a scurrilous distortion than a lie out of whole cloth. Which doesn’t excuse it, but as Trump smear-lies go, for my money there are many which are more egregious.

    Other than that, nothing jumps out at me. Seems like a pretty solid compilation.

    lurker (59504c)

  111. the *most* notable

    (Proofread first, then post. Sheesh.)

    lurker (59504c)

  112. Dating apps are using images from the siege to ban rioters’ accounts
    ……..
    Women and men have in some cases also turned the dating apps into hunting grounds, striking up conversations with rioters, gathering potentially incriminating photos or confessions, then relaying them to the FBI. Using the dating apps to pursue members of the mob has become a viral pursuit, with tips shared on Twitter and some women changing their location on the dating apps to Washington, D.C., in hopes of ensnaring a potential suspect.
    ……..
    Amanda Spataro, a 25-year-old logistics coordinator in Tampa, called it her “civic duty” to swipe through dating apps for men who’d posted incriminating pictures of themselves. On Bumble, she found one man with a picture that seemed likely to have come from the insurrection; his response to a prompt about his “perfect first date” was: “Storming the Capitol.”

    After swiping right in hopes she could get more information out of him, she said he responded that he did visit the Capitol and sent more pictures as proof. She later contacted the FBI tip line.

    “Most people, you think if you’re going to commit a crime, you’re not going to brag about it,” Spataro said in an interview.

    [S]ome privacy advocates said the episode reveals a worrying truth about pervasive public surveillance and the opaque connections between private companies and law enforcement. Some also worry about people being misidentified by amateur investigators and other risks that can arise when vigilantes try to take crime-fighting into their own hands.
    ……..
    Both Bumble and Match Group — which owns Tinder, Hinge, OkCupid, PlentyofFish and Match — said they were working to remove users known to be involved in the Capitol siege from their platforms.
    …….
    Dating apps have also worked to ban anyone who has been arrested or publicly identified by law enforcement as having taken part in the attack.
    …….
    The overlapping issues of law enforcement, privacy and user safety are complicated for dating apps. Police or prosecutors seeking data — especially if they have search warrants — give companies little room to object unless they are already encrypting data in ways that can’t be readily retrieved, as Apple and some other companies have done with some kinds of user communications.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  113. Frosty @107 & 109-
    I looked it up. I’m just ignoring you.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  114. Remy never fails to crack me up.

    Yup.

    “Mr. Mayor, how would you prefer your foie gras?”

    “Donated.”

    I lol’d.

    lurker (59504c)

  115. Acting defense secretary orders NSA director to immediately install former GOP operative as the agency’s top lawyer
    Acting defense secretary Christopher C. Miller ordered the director of the National Security Agency to install on Saturday a former GOP political operative as the NSA’s top lawyer, according to four individuals familiar with the matter.
    …….
    In November, Pentagon General Counsel Paul C. Ney Jr. named Michael Ellis, then a White House official, to the position of general counsel at the NSA, a career civilian post at the government’s largest and most technologically advanced spy agency, The Post reported. He was selected after a competitive civil service competition. He has not taken up the job, however, as he needed to complete administrative procedures, including taking a polygraph test.

    Ellis’s naming, made under pressure from the White House, drew criticism from national security legal experts. It “appears to be an attempt to improperly politicize an important career position,” wrote Susan Hennessey, a former lawyer in the NSA Office of General Counsel, on Lawfare, where she is the executive editor.
    ………
    The move is troubling, coming as it does four days before President Trump leaves office and the Biden administration takes over, former U.S. officials said. The move makes it more difficult for the Biden administration to immediately replace him, the former officials said.

    There also were concerns about Ellis’s qualifications for the job, according to several people. One individual said that those issues included the possibility that he was picked over candidates who scored higher during the interview process.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  116. Pushed to the edge by the Capitol riot, people are reporting their family and friends to the FBI

    This just shows the leftist desire for re-education camps.

    Most of these people were attending a rally and demonstration. They didn’t have guns, zip ties or Tasers on their person, or maps of the Capitol. Their only crime was being conned by a con man.

    But let the fear-mongering and gaslighting continue.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  117. I’m not sure which are the worst groups in modern politics, but “Trump” brings them all out, for and against.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  118. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/16/2021 @ 4:38 pm

    Hm, that opens a whole new field of catfishing. I need to warm up photoshop.

    Is there a name for catfishing catfishers? Is that metacatfishing?

    frosty (f27e97)

  119. Do you think a cop who is also a member of the Klan

    Are you serious comparing one of the 75 million people who voted for (and presumably supported) Donald Trump to the effing Klan?

    Wow.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  120. @59. ROFLMOPIP. Yet true, Davey.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  121. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/16/2021 @ 4:41 pm

    Is there any other alternative? You could say Stalin had a point but that doesn’t seem like it will work out. You could try what Duranty did at the time.

    But you don’t need to reply. Maybe other people will read them and think about it.

    frosty (f27e97)

  122. ‘…the fascist personality cult that was once the Republican party.’

    ROFLMAOPIP:

    “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” – Barry Goldwater

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  123. Are you serious comparing one of the 75 million people who voted for (and presumably supported) Donald Trump to the effing Klan?

    Nah, they were the underground half a million before Trump, now they’re the most vocal half a million purported Republicans.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  124. I sympathize with Kevin’s argument, but these selfie-posters wanted to be known. It’s not like they sent a private message which was hacked.

    You extrapolate from one to all. You also kind of chill the idea of ever putting a political statement on Facebook. It will offend someone and they might be a crazy person.

    Sure, the lawyer who called for people to be hanged is fair game, and might need to be referred to their bar association (right after they deal with Trump’s attorneys), but a cop who attends a political rally, as a private citizen is different. If he attended in uniform, it would be another matter. Supporting Donald Trump, or attending a rally that your superiors disagree with, is not a cause for discipline (and if it becomes one, even given the whatabouts, we cease to be a democracy).

    Question: If holding silly ideas as truth is a firing offense, what do we do about Marxists?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  125. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/16/2021 @ 4:55 pm

    Slow your roll there guy. Rip Murdock is just talking about the portion of those 75m who are cops. So, approximately 174,298 people assuming a normal distribution.

    frosty (f27e97)

  126. Nah, they were the underground half a million before Trump, now they’re the most vocal half a million purported Republicans.

    There are underground half-millions in all flavors. Marxists, 9/11 truthers, wiccans, anti-vaxxers, vegans, all kinds of crazy. About 50 million voters suspect or believe that the 2020 election was stolen. I many not believe that, you may not believe that, but many do and we have to find a way forward with them. Democracies suck, but every thing else sucks worse.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  127. @61. OTOH, could be a FBI plant to simply ‘reassure’ the pubLic they’re on the ball. Hard t beiee much of what any of these twits say. Memoto plagirist-elect who keeps vowig tbe honest w/”us”-: “$2000 is $2000– not $1400.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  128. I am always on the side of the person earning their daily bread. I have said it before. Always!

    My remark related strictly to privacy online.

    nk (1d9030)

  129. Rip Murdock is just talking about the portion of those 75m who are cops. So, approximately 174,298 people assuming a normal distribution.

    So what. Cops are people too and, so long as they are not using their badge or gun and are out of uniform, they have the same political rights as I do.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  130. ^ Hard to believe much of what any of these twits say. Memoto plagiarist-elect who keeps vowing to be honest w/”us”-: “$2000 is $2000– not $1400.” Apologies for typos.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  131. Memo[]to plagi[a]rist-elect who keeps vowi[n]g t[t ]be honest w/”us”-: “$2000 is $2000– not $1400.”

    That wouldn’t, by any chance, be the price of Melania’s upcoming photo album, would it?

    nk (1d9030)

  132. In any event, the gas-lighting continues. I’m pretty sure this is going to spread from the frothing fringe of Trumpiness, as we saw on the 6th, to anyone the new regime doesn’t like. Biden said he’s coming for the guns, and this is a crisis not to waste.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  133. @80.Headline: Vice President-elect Harris will be sworn in by Justice Sonia Sotomayor

    Making America ‘grate’ again?

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  134. KM@119-
    Are you serious comparing one of the 75 million people who voted for (and presumably supported) Donald Trump to the effing Klan?

    No. I never mentioned Trump voters. Look at your original comment. My response was about law enforcement who attended the insurrection, a number associated with groups like the Proud Boys, Three Percenters, Oath Keepers l, etc.

    Nice gaslighting though. Thanks for playing.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  135. @131. Back field in motion: videos of her boarding and de-planning AF-1 suffice. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  136. It is $2000. We just got the first $600 early. After all, Trump wanted to raise the $600 to $2000. That’s what Biden is doing.

    I will point out that I said that when they did a Christmas tree would come with. Not that anyone bet against that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  137. frosty (f27e97) — 1/16/2021 @ 5:04 pm

    Sorry, I denounce myself, I did the math wrong. He may only be talking about appropriately 332,771 cops.

    Again, many apologies comrades. I think my calculator was designed by a white man.

    frosty (f27e97)

  138. No. I never mentioned Trump voters. Look at your original comment. My response was about law enforcement who attended the insurrection

    No, it was about people simply attending the earlier rallies. Some in the doxxing lists you promulgated had nothing to do with the insurrection.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  139. I think my calculator was designed by a white man.

    I seriously doubt it these days. Probably designed in Bangalore.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  140. Slow your roll there guy. Rip Murdock is just talking about the portion of those 75m who are cops. So, approximately 174,298 people assuming a normal distribution.

    I was only talking about tho who attended the insurrection, not Trump voters per se.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  141. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/16/2021 @ 5:07 pm

    Don’t worry the new bosses have a plan for all of that. They’ve got nice color coded masks for safety. The marxists won’t need them because they can’t spread COVID. But as soon as everyone starts wearing the correct masks they can start working on the Maha Lout Ploh.

    frosty (f27e97)

  142. I was only talking about tho who attended the insurrection, not Trump voters per se.

    I was reacting to the lists that you linked in your post #16, which is not limited as such.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  143. KM @138-
    If you back and look at the article and spreadsheets, it refers to the insurrection of January 6, 2021, another day that will live infamy.

    As far as “doxxing” goes the public employee records (such as agencies, emails, salaries, etc. ) are public records and can be obtained by anyone.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  144. I was reacting to the lists that you linked in your post #16, which is not limited as such.

    Show me.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  145. Defining your terms:

    Gas-lighting: Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment.

    Saying something untrue is not, in an of itself, gaslight. Neither is believing another person is wrong.

    Example 1:
    Person1 “Of course there weren’t any riots. Pretty much everyone was doing what they were supposed to do. Like one or two people got out of hand.

    Person2: “I saw video of it on the news, they were interviewing people involved, people involved were posting to social media.”

    Person1: “Listen, I know that you’ve been brainwashed by the political media, but nothing really happened.”

    Person1 is gaslighting person 2.

    Person1: Listen, I don’t think it was that serious. Yes, things got out of hand, but it wasn’t the majority of the crowd.

    Person2: There was property destruction, assault, trespassing! It was super-serious! How can you not take it seriously?!

    Person one: They felt unlistened to, so, yes, they acted a little extreme, but it isn’t the end of the world and the country has come through just fine.

    No one is gaslighting here. It is a difference of opinion.

    If you think this could be applied to the BLM protests, you are correct. If you think this could be applied to the Trump rally protests, you are correct. If you do not think this example could be applied to the political group with whom you sympathize, please press one.

    Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

    Tu es Ciego. Adios!

    Nic (896fdf)

  146. There is precious little data on COVID spread through bars and restaurants.
    Here is a link to some:
    https://www.coronavirus.kdheks.gov/160/COVID-19-in-Kansas
    Scroll down an inch to the “Cluster Summary” button

    steveg (43b7a5)

  147. #62 RIP
    You are correct. Her sentence was commuted for being too harsh

    steveg (43b7a5)

  148. Oh, if you want an example of how to make person1 in example1 not gaslighting, person1 would’ve answered: “If you look at the court proceedings, here’s what’s shown. Also, here is other video with this bunch of evidence from person not involved. Here, also, is full context of social media post and uncut video.”

    Nic (896fdf)

  149. Sooo….or aannd?

    Plus, you think Kansas data is good? The cluster analysis you link to tracked a total of 33k out of 256k cases. They’re only missing 88%.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  150. #60
    Washington Post sources say…
    Private Security Guard, Credential not fake but simply not recognized for entry
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/beeler-arrest-inauguration-checkpoint/2021/01/16/8597db24-5834-11eb-a817-e5e7f8a406d6_story.html

    steveg (43b7a5)

  151. Well if you can call an election with 8% of the vote… just kidding but thats a bigger sample than a lot of polls.
    It seemed to be accurate on Care facilities and Meat Packing plants and if you read carefully you will see that the study is Cluster Analysis so it is likely that the study concentrated on clusters found within the data rather than the entirety.

    My point is shutting California outdoor dining seem to have been implemented out of fear and ignorance rather than from data and science.

    Thank God we have the Biden Harris braintrust on it
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55182309

    steveg (43b7a5)

  152. There’s not a reserve stockpile.

    I think what he meant is they had a reserve (for second doses) but they didn’t have a (long term) stockpile. Stockpile is a term of art.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  153. Trump has requested a large sendoff to be planned for the morning of Jan. 20, sources said, after he choppers via Marine One to Joint Base Andrews, where he is expected to give remarks to supporters and departing members of his administration.

    He wants to go out like Nixon.

    But what about he overnight coronovirus cleaning of the White House? I guess they could have it if he just stayed in the residential portion.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  154. Despite putting in 200 hours in the cockpit of a Piper Cub, Cole completed six weeks of boot camp at Camp Lejeune with the Women’s Reserve’s First Battalion and wound up “behind a typewriter instead of an airplane.”

    During World War II, the United States Army was notorious for doing things like that. With men with skills.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  155. Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca) — 1/16/2021 @ 6:57 pm

    There’s not a reserve stockpile.

    I think what he meant is they had a reserve (for second doses) but they didn’t have a (long term) stockpile. Stockpile is a term of art.

    I’ve seen at least 3 understandings of “stockpile”. The two you’ve got here and as a buffer to the supply chain unrelated to 2nd doses, i.e. short term stockpile.

    frosty (f27e97)

  156. Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca) — 1/16/2021 @ 6:59 pm

    I’m also curious about the nuclear football, and not the one some people confuse with the prop from GI Joe or “the button”.

    I think there are only 3 and the handoff happens just prior to inauguration, which DT isn’t going to. Presumably they could use the one at the WH with a different biscuit? But then some guy has to fly the old, sad, and lonely football back to the WH from FL and there’d only be 2 operational footballs. That DJ is truly an SOB.

    Given what’s known about the biscuit anyone want to wager JB can remember which gold codes are valid?

    frosty (f27e97)

  157. Prosecutors in Georgia appear increasingly likely to open a criminal investigation of President Trump over his attempts to overturn the results of the state’s 2020 election,

    This would not be correct, as Trump did not really solicit election fraud. And he never offered any inducement or made any threat, unless you can interpret his warning of criminal prosecution as a threat (in case he actually succeeded without him.)

    But this was just part of Trump’s claiming that there was fraud. He claimed that Raffensperger not changing the results might be covering up. Well, if everything he said was true, maybe.

    It shouldn’t be a crime for a person to argue his case, however unfounded. Only if you can say that Trump meant something else other than the simple meaning of his words to be understood can there be anything criminal here. But Trump focused almost all the time on why he was right and not so much on what he wanted Raffensperger to do, which he would have done had it been understood between them that he wanted him to report false results.

    One member of the Georgia Election Bpard thought Trump’s saying that Raffensperger can say he recalculated was problematical, (different word) but actually it just makes no sense.

    Or was Trump indeed asking him to make a “mistake” in arithmetic?

    I think Trump was just trying to say that Raffensperger would not embarrass himself if he changed the result. Since embarrassment is not a legitimate reason not to revise your work he wasn’t asking Raffensperger to commit election fraud.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  158. Colonel Klink @85.

    Oh, the second doses were being kept in reserve by Pfizer. Not by the government.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  159. Sammy, you’re the kind of guy that would assume the 300lb street thug that corners you in an alley and asks “you want to give me your wallet or you want to get your ass kicked?” Is genuinely curious about your preferences.

    😀

    That said I love your comments and learn a lot from the research you do.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  160. 89. 90.

    Which rally?

    There were two pro-Trump rallies scheduled that day: One took place near the White House and the other seems to have been replaced by an assault on the Capitol.

    I don’t think many of the people involved in the assault went to the first rally.

    Two (linked) rallies seem to have been conflated into one.

    Just take a look in the Wayback machine:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20210106005050/https://wildprotest.com

    People started bursting through the barricades at 12L53 pm which is, I guess right before the second rally was to start, (They got into the Capitol building at 2 pm, and were all outside the building shortly after 3L30 pm, Danger got to be within 100 feet of Mike Pence efore the Secret Service whisked him away)

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  161. Time123 (b0628d) — 1/16/2021 @ 7:50 pm

    Sammy, you’re the kind of guy that would assume the 300lb street thug that corners you in an alley and asks “you want to give me your wallet or you want to get your ass kicked?”

    That’s not what Trump did. He did that more with Mike Pence., During most of the time leading up to Jan 6 his threats, if any, were political – althuugh real death threats kept coming to people who Trump wanted to help him. But that happens to a lot of people in controversies in the public eye. (Trump was put on notice this was happening)

    I think this wasn’t even like the teenage boys who asked Bernard Goetz for money in 1984.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shooting

    Canty then said, “Give me five dollars.” Goetz subsequently pulled a handgun and fired multiple shots at the four youths, wounding all. Canty and Ramseur testified at the criminal trial that they were panhandling, and had only requested the money, not demanded it. Cabey did not testify and Allen took the Fifth Amendment.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  162. @157

    It shouldn’t be a crime for a person to argue his case, however unfounded.

    “Argue his case” is doing a lot of work there, Sammy. Trump is responsible for the foreseeable consequences of his behavior, conspiratorial imaginings notwithstanding. If I hire somebody to murder you, it’s not an effective defense that I honestly believe you’re running a kiddy prostitution ring out of a neighborhood pizzeria.

    Only if you can say that Trump meant something else other than the simple meaning of his words to be understood can there be anything criminal here.

    What Trump meant is a question of fact. Under Georgia law I don’t know which objective, subjective, and/or objective/subjective tests are used to find that meaning, but that’s what will determine his culpability.

    lurker (59504c)

  163. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/15/us/trump-capitol-riot-timeline.html

    About

    11:37 a.m. Members of the Proud Boys, a far-right group, join protesters, who had been assembled on the Capitol lawn since 10 a.m.

    [Before Trump even started speaking]

    12:03 p.m. President Trump begins speaking at a rally near the White House, about a mile away from the Capitol.

    12:17 p.m. Mr. Trump tells rallygoers to walk down to the Capitol.

    “After this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you.”

    12:29 p.m. A video shows a large crowd walking from the rally down Constitution Avenue to the Capitol.

    About 11:37 a.m.
    Members of the Proud Boys, a far-right group, join protesters, who had been assembled on the Capitol lawn since 10 a.m.
    12:03 p.m.
    President Trump begins speaking at a rally near the White House, about a mile away from the Capitol.

    12:17 p.m.
    Mr. Trump tells rallygoers to walk down to the Capitol.
    “After this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you.”

    12:29 p.m. A video shows a large crowd walking from the rally down Constitution Avenue to the Capitol.

    [While Trump is still speaking]

    12:53 p.m. Rioters violently overwhelm the police and breach the Capitol’s outermost barricade. They break through three more barriers, forcing officers back to the Capitol steps, where they now face off.

    12:58 p.m. Capitol Police in riot gear are seen arriving to reinforce the line of officers on the Capitol steps.

    1:03 p.m. Speaker Nancy Pelosi begins the joint session of Congress, where both chambers meet to certify the presidential vote.

    1:12 p.m. Trump ends his rally speech.

    1:12 p.m. Several House Republicans, backed by Senator Ted Cruz of Texas, object to certifying Arizona’s vote, sending the House and Senate to debate in separate chambers.

    1:15 p.m. By the Capitol steps, rioters continue to clash with the police. By now, reinforcements from local police have arrived to help. Both sides spray chemical agents.

    [The rioters with the chemical agents had come prepared for that before Trump spoke]

    1:30 p.m. The Senate and House debates begin in their respective chambers.

    About 11:37 a.m.
    Members of the Proud Boys, a far-right group, join protesters, who had been assembled on the Capitol lawn since 10 a.m.
    12:03 p.m.
    President Trump begins speaking at a rally near the White House, about a mile away from the Capitol.

    12:17 p.m.
    Mr. Trump tells rallygoers to walk down to the Capitol.
    “After this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you.”
    12:29 p.m.
    A video shows a large crowd walking from the rally down Constitution Avenue to the Capitol.

    12:53 p.m.
    Rioters violently overwhelm the police and breach the Capitol’s outermost barricade. They break through three more barriers, forcing officers back to the Capitol steps, where they now face off.

    12:58 p.m.
    Capitol Police in riot gear are seen arriving to reinforce the line of officers on the Capitol steps.
    1:03 p.m.
    Speaker Nancy Pelosi begins the joint session of Congress, where both chambers meet to certify the presidential vote.
    1:12 p.m.
    Trump ends his rally speech.
    1:12 p.m.
    Several House Republicans, backed by Senator Ted Cruz of Texas, object to certifying Arizona’s vote, sending the House and Senate to debate in separate chambers.

    1:15 p.m. By the Capitol steps, rioters continue to clash with the police. By now, reinforcements from local police have arrived to help. Both sides spray chemical agents.

    1:30 p.m. The Senate and House debates begin in their respective chambers.

    1:49 p.m. Capitol Police requests National Guard assistance as rioters outside tear through scaffolding.

    1:58 p.m. Rioters make it past two barriers on the east side of the Capitol and can now approach the doors of the building,

    2:10 p.m. Another mob breaches the final barricade on the building’s west side and approaches an entrance near the Senate chamber.

    2:11 p.m. The first rioters make it inside the Capitol building.

    About 2:12 p.m. As Senators continue to debate, Vice President Mike Pence is ushered off the Senate floor.

    2:13 p.m. Senator James Lankford, Republican of Oklahoma, is interrupted on the floor of the Senate, which is called into recess. [2:14 pm] A minute later, a mob arrives steps from a door to the Senate chamber.

    About 2:15 p.m. In the House Chamber on the south side of the building, Ms. Pelosi is ushered off the floor. The debate in the House continues.

    2:18 p.m. The House goes into recess, and representatives remain in the chamber.

    2:24 p.m. Mr. Trump criticizes Mr. Pence on Twitter.

    “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!”

    2:26 p.m. Rioters breach a second entry into the building, this time on the east side

    2:26 p.m. The House goes back into session, even with the mob in the building.

    2:30 p.m. The House is called into a final recess. Someone yells, “Sit down!”

    About 2:30 p.m. Senators are evacuated from the Senate chamber as House members remain in theirs.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  164. lurker (59504c) — 1/16/2021 @ 8:17 pm

    “Argue his case” is doing a lot of work there, Sammy. Trump is responsible for the foreseeable consequences of his behavior, conspiratorial imaginings notwithstanding.

    I am speaking only of that telephone conversation on January 2. 2021. His case was nonsense, but that doesn’t convert his talk into solicitation to commit election fraud. He did not step out of those claims, nor did he offer Raffensperger any inducement, nor threaten him with anything, except more nonsense (that if Raffensperger did not go along he might be committing a criminal offense)

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  165. Giuliani says he’s working on Trump’s impeachment defense, would argue voter fraud claims
    ……..
    The former New York City mayor said that in his defense of the president, he would introduce allegations of widespread voter fraud that have been raised — and rejected — in dozens of courtrooms across the country.

    “They basically claimed that anytime [Trump] says voter fraud, voter fraud — or I do, or anybody else — we’re inciting to violence; that those words are fighting words because it’s totally untrue,” he said. “Well, if you can prove that it’s true, or at least true enough so it’s a legitimate viewpoint, then they are no longer fighting words.”
    ……..
    Regarding impeachment, Giuliani also said that he personally believed Trump should move to dismiss the trial outright.

    “If they decide to bring it to a trial, he should move to dismiss the impeachment as entirely illegal. That it was the only impeachment ever done in what, two days, three days,” Giuliani told ABC News. “We would say to the court, ‘You are now permitting in the future, basically in two days, the Congress can just impeach on anything they want to.”
    ……..
    Giuliani dismissed the validity of the single article of impeachment accusing Trump of inciting violence against the government on the grounds that the president’s rally speech did not incite the riot because there was a delay between the speech and the attack.

    “Basically, if [incitement] is going to happen, it’s got to happen right away,” he said. “You’d have to have people running out, you’d have to have people running out of that frozen speech, right up to the Capitol. And that’s basically, incitement,” Giuliani said.

    If the effort to dismiss the impeachment article fails, which is likely, Giuliani said he wouldn’t rule out the president testifying. Trump’s lawyers were opposed to him testifying during his first impeachment trial, but Giuliani says this situation is different and the impeachment defense is “much more straightforward.”
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  166. @165. America’s mayor is quite the dye hard. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  167. Time123 (b0628d) — 1/16/2021 @ 7:50 pm

    Both of these things are things I very much appreciate about Sammy.

    frosty (42014a)

  168. @136. Stealing Trump & Turtle’s thunder? Leave it to the parsing plagiarist-elect to start off w/another swampy Wilmington–or is it Scranton this week– lie. “$2000 is $2000, not $1400.’ And whatever happened to ‘shutdown the virus’?!?! Lost in translation to Swamp Speak.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  169. He did not step out of those claims, nor did he offer Raffensperger any inducement, nor threaten him with anything

    Sammy, you’re asserting a conclusion that’s anything but clear. Inducements and threats can be express or implied. Criminal solicitation and conspiracy has been proven on less incriminating language than Trump used in that phone call. I’m not saying it’s a slam dunk, but neither is his innocence a foregone conclusion. What he meant is the determinative question a prosecutor, maybe a grand jury, and then maybe a petit jury will have to answer.

    lurker (59504c)

  170. After White House Meeting with Trump, Mike Lindell Calls for Military Coup on Facebook
    Following his meeting with President Trump on Friday, MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell said in a Facebook interview with Right Side Broadcasting News today that he’s praying that the military presence in Washington is part of Trump’s plan to retain power.
    ……….
    “You know I’ve been looking down every hole for election fraud since November 4th and about eight or nine days ago this proof came out. One-hundred percent footprints from the machines of the machine fraud,” Lindell said. “I wanted to get it to the president. This is it. This shows that Joe Biden lost: 79 million for Donald Trump and 68 million for Joe Biden.”

    When asked about the president’s reaction to this Lindell replied, “I said I talked to the guy. This is real. I said it’s got the IP address of the computer that it came out of. It also has the latitude and longitude like over in China this went over there came back and it shows the number of votes flipped. And he was very intrigued looking at it. . . . He goes, yeah like we all knew that right.”

    Lindell said that the notes which included the words “insurrection act” and “martial law” were just part of a menu of legal options that was presented to the president. He said that the menu item that most intrigued Trump was the suggestion that he could order Facebook and Twitter and Google to reinstate all of the banned accounts.
    ………
    Lindell said he left the White House deeply deflated by the lawyers’ nonplussed reaction to his blockbuster “evidence” and O’Brien’s objection to the notion that Trump has the power to unban all social media accounts unilaterally. He was further distressed by the “piranhas”in the press corps who were criticizing the meeting.
    ……..
    When the Right Side Broadcasting News interviewer suggested that “people are hoping that this military presence is a response” to the election fraud, Lindell replied, “that’s where my hope lies.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  171. Historic Air National Guard airlift brings troops to DC
    ………
    Some 125 Air National Guard aircraft flew 134 sorties into Washington Jan. 12-15, bringing more than 7,060 National Guard troops and 2.3 million pounds of cargo from around the nation. The flurry of flights into Joint Base Andrews in Maryland continued Saturday, handled by the 89th Airlift Wing.

    “The type of mission that we are involved in right now just demonstrates the nature of the Air National Guard,” said Lt. Gen. Mike Loh, director, Air National Guard. “We pride ourselves in being the first to the fight, whether it be responding to natural disasters, COVID-19, civil unrest, or providing support to our local, state, and federal partners for the inauguration.”

    “The volume of aircraft, personnel, and equipment that is processing through Andrews is pretty much unprecedented,” said Lt. Col. Devin T. Robinson, director, Air National Guard public affairs. “Our Guard Airmen are turning a massive number of aircraft in a very short period of time – it really is amazing!”

    On Sunday, the Alaska Air National Guard’s 168th Wing will fly about 80 Guardsmen aboard a KC-135 Stratotanker from Eielson Air Force Base on a seven-hour flight to Joint Base Andrews.
    ……..
    In Puerto Rico, a C-17 Globemaster III cargo plane from the 145th Airlift Wing arrived at Muñiz Air National Guard Base to carry Soldiers with the Puerto Rico National Guard’s 92nd Military Police Brigade to Washington. Airmen with the 156th Wing ensured the aircraft was fueled and ready to go on time.
    ………
    About half of the Guard Soldiers and Airmen will conduct security-related missions to include crowd control, traffic control, and assisting with entry and exit points. State and local law enforcement agencies remain responsible for security. The D.C. National Guard will also perform ceremonial duties.

    Military involvement in presidential inaugurations dates back to April 30, 1789, when members of the U.S. Army, local militias (the modern-day National Guard), and Revolutionary War veterans escorted George Washington to New York City – the seat of government for his inauguration ceremony.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  172. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/16/us/capitol-riot-funding.html

    Keith Lee, an Air Force veteran and former police detective, spent the morning of Jan. 6 casing the entrances to the Capitol.

    In online videos, the 41-year-old Texan pointed out the flimsiness of the fencing. He cheered the arrival, long before President Trump’s rally at the other end of the mall, of far-right militiamen encircling the building. Then, armed with a bullhorn, Mr. Lee called out for the mob to rush in, until his voice echoed from the dome of the Rotunda…

    Boldface mine.

    The important thing about this, to the New York Times, is that he was also raising money online.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  173. Kevin McCarthy is getting no credit with the pro-Trump people because he came out in favor of censure..

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/16/us/kevin-mccarthy-trump-california-republican.html

    … But in the days since impeachment, some Republicans now say he has not been loyal enough to President Trump.
    ———————-

    …Mr. McCarthy has been pilloried nationally and throughout California for being loyal to Mr. Trump to the bitter end — voting to overturn the election results hours after a mob of the president’s supporters stormed the Capitol and urging censure of the president instead of impeachment.

    Democrats and some Republicans called on him to step down. The anti-Trump Lincoln Project released an ad calling him a “pathetic enabler” and urging his staff to “pack up your desk and leave that loser behind.” A scathing Sacramento Bee editorial denounced him for having “a soulless lack of principle” and for abusing his authority “to promote big, dangerous lies about the election.”

    But in his home district — one of the most conservative in California — Mr. McCarthy has been under fire for not being loyal enough.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  174. SF: He did not step out of those claims, nor did he offer Raffensperger any inducement, nor threaten him with anything

    lurker (59504c) — 1/16/2021 @ 10:24 pm

    Sammy, you’re asserting a conclusion that’s anything but clear. Inducements and threats can be express or implied.

    Yes, but Raffensperger didn’t see anything (except implied political threats to oppose his re-election.)

    Criminal solicitation and conspiracy has been proven on less incriminating language than Trump used in that phone call. I’m not saying it’s a slam dunk, but neither is his innocence a foregone conclusion. What he meant is the determinative question a prosecutor, maybe a grand jury, and then maybe a petit jury will have to answer.

    You’re right, but there’s no evidence of anything, aside from the fcact that Truump shouldd have known that his case was nonsense, and that he wasn;t listening.

    https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-georgia-phone-call-transcript-brad-raffensperger-recording

    …. I won this election by hundreds of thousands of votes. There’s no way I lost Georgia. There’s no way. We won by hundreds of thousands of votes. I’m just going by small numbers, when you add them up, they’re many times the 11,000. But I won that state by hundreds of thousands of votes.

    Now do you think it’s possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County? Because that’s what the rumor is. And also that Dominion took out machines. That Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their machinery. Do you know anything about that? Because that’s illegal.

    Ryan Germany: (30:15)

    This is Ryan Germany, no, Dominion has not moved any machinery out of Fulton County

    [crosstalk

    00:30:21] We’re having an election on Tuesday.

    President Trump: (30:24)

    But have they moved the inner parts of the machines and replaced them with other parts?

    Ryan Germany: (30:31)

    No.

    President Trump: (30:31)

    Are you sure, Ryan?

    Ryan Germany: (30:34)

    I’m sure, I’m sure, Mr. President.

    President Trump: (30:39)

    What about the ballots, the shredding of the ballots, have they been shredding ballots?

    Ryan Germany: (30:44)

    The only investigation that we have into that, they have not been shredding any ballots. There was an issue in Cobb County where they were doing normal office shredding, getting rid of old stuff, and we investigated that. But this stuff from past elections.

    President Trump: (31:00)

    Well, I don’t know about that

    [crosstalk 00:31:02]. It doesn’t pass the smell test though, because we hear they’re shredding thousands and thousands of ballots. And now what they’re saying, “Oh, we’re just cleaning up the office.” I don’t think that-

    Brad Raffensperger: (31:16)

    Mr. President, the problem that you have with social media, people can say anything.

    President Trump: (31:21)

    Oh this isn’t social media. This is Trump media. It’s not social media. It’s really not, it’s not social media. I don’t care about social media. I couldn’t care less. Social media is Big Tech. Big Tech is on your side. I don’t even know why you have a side because you should want to have an accurate election. And you’re a Republican.

    Brad Raffensperger: (31:42)

    We believe that we do have an accurate election.

    President Trump: (31:44)

    No, no you don’t, no, no you don’t. You don’t have … not even close. You’re off by hundreds of thousands of votes….

    I say a lot of the proof that Trump was not relying on threats wass his concentration on making his case.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  175. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/16/2021 @ 8:49 pm

    Trump’s lawyers were opposed to him testifying during his first impeachment trial, but Giuliani says this situation is different and the impeachment defense is “much more straightforward.”

    Trump also wanted to testify this time to the House before they voted on impeachment, but was dissuaded.
    ……….

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  176. As I read the nonsense surrounding the MyPillow fellow….and his apparent inability to distinguish wildly-hatched conspiratorial accusations from actual evidence….I wonder where are the voices of sanity? Voices from outside of his bubble will not persuade him…it would be seen as just more “fake news” and misinformation from liberals and NeverTrumpers. But what about within the bubble…and specifically within the Christian Right bubble?

    I’m just not hearing the sober statement of “enough is enough”. As David French recently noted, there was a strong Christian presence at the “Stop the Steal” march and the subsequent riot (flags, music, signs, testimonials, etc.). These are people who have bought into the Big Lies that liberals…all of them… hate them, Christians will be under assault if Trump is replaced, and that the country is going to be destroyed…quite literally…if Biden takes over.

    Where is the clear, unambiguous, authoritative response to this? I have low expectations for right-wing media entertainers who are creatures of capitalism, but what of the Church? What of Christian leaders who should be trying to square all of this with “love thy neighbor”? How many families and friendships have been fractured by this nonsense because people are not being pulled away from the Big Lies? The Church…in its many forms….has dropped the ball….and in some high-profile cases has fanned the flames. Maybe this is the problem at times with faith…people just want to believe something whether or not supporting evidence or logic exists. People were reported to have prayed before storming the Capitol…..really!? It’s not just Trump promoting bad thinking…it’s a lot of people who should just know better….and remain silent.

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  177. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/16/2021 @ 11:27 pm

    Hopefully they can get some of the troops organized into a parade. Nothing says the land of the free and the home of the brave more than troops goose-stepping and a Lady Gaga performance.

    frosty (f27e97)

  178. I say a lot of the proof that Trump was not relying on threats wass his concentration on making his case.

    Sammy, Trump accused Raffensperger of committing criminal acts for not doing what he wanted, saying he was on notice. That’s a threat, and suborning election fraud is a felony at state and federal levels.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  179. AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/17/2021 @ 7:31 am

    Yes, why aren’t preachers and church leaders on the side of the D’s and authoritarianism. We need to do something about that. Maybe revoke some non-profit statuses and have some IRS investigations. Maybe if you could just explain to churches how they could help the party by tailoring there message.

    In 1933, a group called the German Christians (Deutsche Christen) began to promote the nazification of German Protestantism through the creation of a pro-Nazi “Reich Church.” The German Christians wanted Protestantism to conform to Nazi ideology

    Bonhoeffer tried to stop this but even the Confessing Church was largely silent on the Jewish question.

    frosty (f27e97)

  180. Nothing says the land of the free and the home of the brave more than troops goose-stepping and a Lady Gaga performance.

    Not even a fascist mob storming the capitol to terrorize, take hostage and/or murder lawmakers and the vice president?

    Dave (1bb933)

  181. Except for Israel and getting several Muslim-majority states to recognize Israel, Pompeo’s record at SecState was awful.
    Pompeo gets credit for one other thing: Criticizing the Chinese communist for their cultural genocide of Uighers and calling them out for Hong Kong, not that anything concrete came of it.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  182. Phil Spector (81) has died. No Rest In Peace for him.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  183. Take a second to see what Trump is saying this morning.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  184. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/17/2021 @ 8:12 am

    Hopefully this is the narrative on establishment media outlets. Too many people believe a vote for D was a vote for normalcy.

    frosty (a2f486)

  185. Dave (1bb933) — 1/17/2021 @ 8:22 am

    fascist mob

    Those words don’t mean what you think they mean but I can tell you’ve been watching the daily recommended allotment of msnbc. Good for you.

    frosty (a2f486)

  186. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/17/2021 @ 8:37 am

    Take a second to see what Trump is saying this morning.

    Are you following his example, at least in spirit?

    frosty (a2f486)

  187. Bonhoeffer tried to stop this but even the Confessing Church was largely silent on the Jewish question.
    frosty (f27e97) — 1/17/2021 @ 8:14 am

    Good comment. Let me suggest that the Confessing Church silenced, not silent. There was a great effort to discredit all clergy through amplification of accusations (both real and imagined) of sexual abuse. Until there was little that clergy could say that would be listened to, much less reported without gross misrepresentation. Sound familiar?

    Then, like today, the Churches, (all of them) were given good reason to fear political reprisals for csimply preaching the Gospel. The MO is to silence the religious leaders through fear, now, and then blame them for being silent later.

    felipe (630e0b)

  188. felipe (630e0b) — 1/17/2021 @ 8:57 am

    True, and thank you. It’s easy to use silence against someone and I should know better in principle.

    frosty (a2f486)

  189. @177-
    American soldiers don’t goose step.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  190. It’s crazy how quick ‘support our troops’ and ‘blue lives matter’ flipped to crushing cops in doors with their own equipment and comparing our soldiers to Soviet goose stepping death squads.

    There is only one reason the elected governments of the country, all over the country, need extra protection.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  191. Hopefully this is the narrative on establishment media outlets. Too many people believe a vote for D was a vote for normalcy.

    frosty, what did “establishment media outlets” have anything to do with my comment? The tape of the phone call was directly available to anyone, without media filter.
    What did “a vote for D” have to do with the words Trump said to Raffensperger? FTR, I didn’t “vote for D”, I voted for a Republican, not a faux Republican like Trump.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  192. Frosty: “Yes, why aren’t preachers and church leaders on the side of the D’s and authoritarianism?”

    Wait, that’s what you took from my comment?! Remarkable. I either failed miserably in articulating my point or you failed miserably in good faith comprehension. Do you genuinely believe that Jesus would promote hyperpartisanship….and would applaud the January 6th rioters pummeling the security guards (one to death), busting up the Capitol, and seeking an armed confrontation with representatives over the election? And would Jesus promote the big Lies that all liberals hate conservatives, that Christianity will be attacked under Biden, and that the impending socialist “authoritarianism” would end our country as we know it? Again, this is the hyperbole that gets people to do stupid things and believe even stupider things.

    Enter Mike Lindell and his reported frenzied efforts to let Trump know he’s uncovered…well sort of…a vast international conspiracy of vote hacking that proves that the election was stolen. Except, it’s evidence free…and relies on imaginary machines doing things that are technically implausible. I won’t say there is no push back from the Right at all…but it’s generally qualified and rarely extended to those promoting and advancing “bad think”.

    This leads to my beef with right wing Christian leaders…and the Church more generally. Is it clear where Evangelical leaders stand with the Big Lies and the urgent need to install Trump for a second term? I don’t see major op eds or high visibility televised sermons or infomercials trying to instruct or correct wrong thinking. Trafficking in conspiracies and gossip should be rejected by these leaders…as being antithetical to “loving your neighbor”. This cultish obsession with politics just doesn’t have a lot of Biblical basis….yet it persists…with nary a peep. The biggest “authoritarianism” here is from the group promoting a stolen election meme…with no actual evidence. I would think (hope?) that that would bother you just a little bit more…..

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  193. There is only one reason the elected governments of the country, all over the country, need extra protection.
    Dustin (4237e0) — 1/17/2021 @ 9:14 am

    I agree! And I would include “all over the world” in that. If I read that the Parliament needed protection from the people, or the Knesset needed protection from the people, or.. you get the idea. There is something seriously wrong about the entire thing. Any government that loses enough support of the people should really think about how they got there, before they call in a militia to protect them from a free people.

    felipe (630e0b)

  194. ……the people should really think about how they got there, before they call in a militia to protect them from a free people.
    Really-felipe believes the insurrectionists are representative of a free people, not the “madness of crowds?”

    Sadly, felipe is unable to respond as he has blocked me.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  195. Sammy @172

    long before President Trump’s rally at the other end of the mall

    The important thing is that Trump’s rally speech — in which he told his supporters they needed to “fight like hell” with “strength” or else they “won’t have a country anymore” — was a continuation of things he had been saying since before the election that encouraged radicals to fly to D.C. in the first place and filled them with murderous rage against every government official who would not overturn the election and reinstall him in power, including the vice president, who may have been less than a minute away from being lynched.

    There is video of Capitol invaders saying they were there because the president invited them or instructed them to be there.

    Maybe it’s conceivable that some extremists might have stormed the Capitol and tried to murder elected officials even if Trump hadn’t spent the past two months raging that the election was “viciously” stolen from him and portraying large portions of the government as a force of evil if his demands were not met — but that’s an empty intellectual exercise given that Trump did in fact stir up widespread anger and fear over an extended period of time.

    He also has a history of encouraging physical violence — even if he’s too cowardly to get in a scuffle himself. (That video doesn’t include Trump’s praise for the “strength” of tyrants who “viciously” and effectively put down peaceful protests.)

    Radegunda (bd00e5)

  196. AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/17/2021 @ 9:35 am

    There are basically two opinions. Church leaders can preach a message consistent with the Gospel and focused on Jesus or they can start “rightly” informing people about “the correct” political narratives citing Jesus as an example.

    The problem is even calls for the former start looking like the latter when they are made selectively.

    If you’re suggesting that Church leaders return to a Christ focused message then I agree. But I don’t think you appreciate the distinction between that and WWJD.

    frosty (a2f486)

  197. I agree! And I would include “all over the world” in that.

    Sure. Power, even through democracy, has to be protected or it will be stolen.

    But specifically in the USA, right now, the troops have to protect the election because of Trump and his fans. They are the ones seeking to do harm.

    I have no idea why Christianity is associated with Team R. I get that the power of division works by pointing to some outrage on Team D, like who bakes a cake or uses a bathroom, or worse, Muslim bans, but isn’t Joe Biden a better Christian man than Donald Trump? Which of the two actually like church or the bible or asking forgiveness?

    I think about that, and about all the other things that had me on team R for so long, like spending less money, accountability for officials, sharing democratic values to the world as a lasting peace strategy… Team R’s actions speak loudly against these values.

    Team D is a mess too, with socialists mixing with moderates, but the crisis Trump posed seemed like a clarification on what matters. Can’t have a balanced budget and term limits if we can’t even have peaceful transitions of power.

    I want the republican party to find its way back to reality, but it isn’t happening right now, and it would be…

    Dustin (4237e0)

  198. 179. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/17/2021 @ 8:12 am

    Sammy, Trump accused Raffensperger of committing criminal acts for not doing what he wanted, saying he was on notice. That’s a threat,

    People have said that, and it’s a ridiculous interpretation. People should stop stretching the law.

    Trump gave a reason why supposedly Raffensperger might be committing a criminal act.

    he ballots are corrupt, and they’re brand new and they don’t have a seal and there’s the whole thing with the ballots, but the ballots are corrupt, and you are going to find that they are, which is totally illegal. It’s more illegal for you than it is for them because, you know what they did and you’re not reporting it. That’s a criminal offense, and you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. That’s a big risk. But they are shredding ballots, in my opinion, based on what I’ve heard, and they are removing machinery, and they’re moving it as fast as they can, both of which are criminal finds, and you can’t let it happen and you are letting it happen. I mean, I’m notifying you that you’re letting it happen.

    here was no force behind such a threat, because Trump was not going to remain president for much longer, (unless he somehow succeeded all over) and he wasn’t going to be able to influence anybody to bring an indictment, nor had he in the almost four years he had been president. He wanted Hunter Biden investigated. Was there a political indictment?

    Nor, if he had succeeded without him, would he have had any reason, post facto, to punish Raffensperger with an indictment, because then there would be nothing more he wanted from him.

    This was just more of Trump claiming the election had been stolen from him, adding the idea now that Raffeneperger would be breaking the law bu not correcting the election returns. Which would carry no weight except in the event that Trump could get a lot of other people to believe him.

    Now there was this:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/white-house-forced-georgia-u-s-attorney-to-resign-11610225840

    White House officials pushed Atlanta’s top federal prosecutor to resign before Georgia’s U.S. Senate runoffs because President Trump was upset he wasn’t doing enough to investigate the president’s unproven claims of election fraud, people familiar with the matter said.

    A senior Justice Department official, at the behest of the White House, called the Trump-appointed U.S. Attorney Byung J. Pak late on the night of Jan. 3. In that call the official said Mr. Trump was furious there was no investigation related to election fraud and that the president wanted to fire Mr. Pak, the people said.

    Mr. Pak resigned abruptly on Monday—the day before the runoffs—saying in an early morning email to colleagues that his departure was due to “unforeseen circumstances.”

    That was probably not tied specifically to any investigation of Raffensperger that Trump might have wanted. That would not have gotten Trump anything. Trmp may have done it just to avoid an embarrassing resignation letter.

    He left about two weeks early. The Wall Street Journal explains how it happened this way:

    Mr. Pak on Jan. 3 considered leaving early after the public release of a call from the day before between Mr. Trump and Georgia’s secretary of state Brad Raffensperger in which the president pushed the official to overturn the November election results, one person said. When Mr. Pak communicated that on the Sunday call, the White House indicated he should leave immediately, the person said.

    Trump did not replace him with a pliable prosecutor – just with somebody else who hadn;t gven him any trouble:

    Mr. Trump then called the prosecutor he wanted to replace Mr. Pak, Savannah’s U.S. Attorney Bobby Christine, and told him he was putting him in the job, the person said. In doing so, Mr. Trump bypassed the traditional process in which the office’s No. 2 official would fill the vacancy, as well as longstanding protocol that discourages a president from directly contacting Justice Department officials.

    It put Mr. Christine in the unusual position of serving as top prosecutor in two districts. Atlanta falls in the Northern District of Georgia, and there is a separate Middle District in the state.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  199. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/17/2021 @ 9:09 am

    American soldiers don’t goose step.

    They didn’t used to but we’re doing a lot of things we didn’t used to. Times they are a changing.

    frosty (a2f486)

  200. The tape of the phone call was directly available to anyone, without media filter.

    It always amuses me when Trump defenders accuse his critics of taking their opinions from the MSM, as though it were impossible to see and hear Trump directly and come away with anything to criticize.

    Radegunda (bd00e5)

  201. t one point Trump seems to refer to the U.S. Attorney as a Never-Trumper. And he says only a child, or an incompetent person, or a dishonest person could not see fraud.

    Incidentally, one of his own attorneys, disassociates herself from one of his claims:

    President Trump: (26:46)

    It was 18,000 ballots, but they used each one three times.

    Cleta Mitchell: (26:52)

    Well, I don’t know about that but I know-

    President Trump: (26:52)

    Well, I do because we had ours magnified out [crosstalk 00:26:57].

    Cleta Mitchell: (26:55)

    I’ve watched the entire tape.

    President Trump: (27:01)

    But nobody can make a case for that, Brad, nobody. I mean, look, you’d have to be a child to think anything other than that, just a child. I mean, you have you never-Trump [crosstalk 00:27:12] attorney-

    Cleta Mitchell: (27:14)

    How many ballots, Mr. Secretary, are you saying were processed then?

    Brad Raffensperger: (27:22)

    We had GPI certainly investigate that.

    Ryan Germany: (27:22)

    This is Ryan Germany. We had our law enforcement officers talk to everyone who was there after that event came to light. GBI was with them, as well as F.B.I. agents.

    President Trump: (27:34)

    Well, there’s no way they could … then they’re incompetent. They’re either dishonest or incompetent,

    okay [crosstalk 00:27:39].

    Cleta Mitchell: (27:40)

    Well, what did they find?

    President Trump: (27:40)

    There’s only two answers, dishonesty or incompetence. There’s just no way. Look, there’s no way. And on the other thing I said too, there’s no way that these things could have been … you have all these different people that voted, but they don’t live in Georgia anymore. What was that number, Cleta? That was a pretty good number, too.

    She says it was like 4,500 (which is actually a pretty low) and Trump says he thought it war more like 20,000 and the Georgia election officials tell him that it’s moved out and later moved back and they didn’t just move back right before the election, and Trump expresses skepticism that anybody would do leave abnd come back.

    Here’s more contradicton between Trump and his legal counsel:

    Ryan Germany: (32:59)

    We chose Cobb County because that was the only county where there’s been any evidence submitted that the signature verification was not properly done.

    President Trump: (33:07)

    No, but I told you, but we’re not saying that.

    Cleta Mitchell: (33:10)

    We did say that.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  202. I have no idea why Christianity is associated with Team R.

    There was an episode of “30 rock” where a character was explaining the difference between the Ds and thr Rs. Forgive my poor paraphrase (I welcome corrections)

    Character:

    The Republicans love money, guns, and G*d! The Democrats love freedom, the prius, and gays!

    But seriously, there are many Christians in the Democratic party. If the Republicans are associated with G*d and not the Democrats, it is only because one associates themselves with G*d and the other not so much. After all G*d was not booed at the RNC convention.

    felipe (630e0b)

  203. Here’s where Trump says he wants to find 11,000 or so votea. He clearly says it’s on the basis that a crime was committed:

    President Trump: (37:48)

    So look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state, and flipping the state is a great testament to our country because it’s a testament that they can admit to a mistake or whatever you want to call it, if it was a mistake. I don’t know. A lot of people think it wasn’t a mistake. It was much more criminal than that, but it’s a big problem in Georgia and it’s not a problem that’s going away. I mean, it’s not a problem that’s
    going away.

    Ryan Germany: (38:29)

    Mr. President, this is Ryan. We’re looking into every one of those things that you mentioned. All investigators [crosstalk 00:38:36].

    President Trump: (38:36)

    Good, but if you find it you’ve got to say it, Ryan.

    Ryan Germany: (38:41)

    And they are.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  204. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/17/2021 @ 9:14 am

    comparing our soldiers to Soviet goose stepping death squads.

    This is just lazy. Not all of the Soviet goose steppers were death squads and not all goose steppers are Soviet.

    It’s crazy how quick ‘support our troops’ and ‘blue lives matter’ flipped to crushing cops in doors with their own equipment

    This is lazy and it’s also a lie. I haven’t flipped to support for crushing cops in doors. I’ve spoken out here against the riots. Granted, I don’t expect that to keep you from lying. If you’re talking about someone else I’d suggest you’re probably mistaken. Anyone now in favor of crushing cops in doors was most likely also in favor of that before the riot and didn’t flip.

    To your general point though, reality has a way of catching up. I’ve been saying for a while that ‘support our troops’ and ‘blue lives matter’ are just slogans that paper over some serious concerns. Just like “defund the police” and “black lives matter” was just cover for “give us control”.

    frosty (a2f486)

  205. Any government that loses enough support of the people should really think about how they got there, before they call in a militia to protect them from a free people.

    It’s astonishing that anyone could watch events of the past two months and believe that the reason for the huge National Guard presence in D.C. is that the legislature and the incoming administration did such horrible things that righteous citizens want to murder them.

    The reason that D.C. is now militarized is that the outgoing president is a grossly selfish person and he threw a massive tantrum over losing an election and spent the tail end of his presidency stirring up rage among his fanatical supporters, including the violent right-wing extremist groups that his administration had refused to take seriously (as Elizabeth Neumann has said) because it didn’t benefit him to do so.

    The original Tea Party groups were angry at the government but they were not violent. The only thing that the police needed to do at a Tea Party rally was keep the counterprotesters away.

    Something different happened in the Trump years, and the explanation is mostly Trump himself, but also the willingness of a large part of the electorate to revere a demagogue.

    Radegunda (bd00e5)

  206. @ Radegunda:

    It always amuses me when Trump defenders accuse his critics of taking their opinions from the MSM, as though it were impossible to see and hear Trump directly and come away with anything to criticize.

    It has been this way throughout his entire term. As if the tweets, rally speeches, leaked phone calls, and actual video of him saying exactly what was published and that we listened to without own ears and saw with our own eyes was somehow doctored and/or filtered by the MSM every single time. Heck, this is the team that couldn’t even decide whether we were supposed to take his tweets seriously, or whether they were actual policy or just impulsive outbursts.

    I’ve taken a lot of heat here because I have consistently believed that every single thing this president, or any other president, says means something. With a massive platform, and with immense power, nothing a sitting president says should be considered irrelevant (not necessarily the content, but the fact that they are the ones saying it). And clearly, given the events of Jan.6, I was correct in taking everything he has said and tweeted and been caught saying was important because people were listening, followers were waiting for his lead and his signals. Shame on anyone who berated us for taking them seriously.

    Dana (cc9481)

  207. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/17/2021 @ 9:42 am

    ……the people should really think about how they got there, before they call in a militia to protect them from a free people.
    Really-felipe believes the insurrectionists are representative of a free people, not the “madness of crowds?”

    Sadly, felipe is unable to respond as he has blocked me.

    I haven’t. Lucky you.

    Really-Rip believes the “anti-authoritarians” will save us from authoritarianism by fully embracing more authoritarianism.

    frosty (a2f486)

  208. 204. felipe (630e0b) — 1/17/2021 @ 10:08 am

    I have no idea why Christianity is associated with Team R.

    There’s a certain ideology that seems to be sort of against the separation of church and state, or opposes certain beliefs of secularists. And they claim (or Josh Hawley did) that’s the Pelagian heresy.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  209. Imagine if Obama had demanded his supporters come to DC in Jan 2017 to stop the steal. Imagine the bloodshed.

    I think Trump’s ability to rally so many is remarkable, but it is not a sign he was right. His opponents can do that too. The reason they don’t is this idea that we should have peaceful, honorable transitions of power. Trump does not have that idea in his head. Even today he plots against our country.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  210. @Dustin@199

    Abortion, Gays, and the Southern Strategy.

    Nic (896fdf)

  211. There’s a certain ideology that seems to be sort of against the separation of church and state, or opposes certain beliefs of secularists. And they claim (or Josh Hawley did) that’s the Pelagian heresy.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca) — 1/17/2021 @ 10:25 am

    I know folks who really care about Jerry Falwell Jr and Liberty University and they are sure that Trump is a family man who really prays to Jesus all the time. They also describe black people as “black” no matter what the context, which is very annoying to me. That is not ideology.

    Is Joe Biden a secularist? I have no great admiration of the guy, but my understanding is that he’s a Christian who believes the religion doesn’t need or want to be pushed on us. I guess Trump isn’t so much a secularist as an athiest as he clearly does not believe in a being greater than himself.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  212. Abortion, Gays, and the Southern Strategy.

    Nic (896fdf) — 1/17/2021 @ 10:26 am

    Abortion is one of my big issues too. Who is more likely to have sought one: Trump or Biden? Frankly if Ghislaine released a tape of Trump demanding underage women he was with have abortions, Trump’s fans would roll their eyes and say that’s showbiz. I’m trying to imagine Trump being a leader on abortion, explaining the inherent dignity and value of life, of the potential for a great contribution to our country, of the hope and faith we need to bring children into the world. It’s beyond him, and his hatred of women is a real problem for the GOP.

    I know I shouldn’t be so strongly opinionated. Mitt Romney showed me what a jackass I am.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  213. but isn’t Joe Biden a better Christian man than Donald Trump?

    [tl/dr: I won’t be the judge of that!]

    You know? That’s a very good question. It really goes down to what is a good Christian man, and what does he do? The parable of the two sons touches on this (I’ll keep it short!):

    A father asks two sons to do something. The first says, “yes,” but ultimately does not do what was asked of him. The second says “no,” but later does what was asked. Who did the father’s will?

    Ah, would life’s questions be so simple a matter to answer. I do not believe man can be called “good” as only the Father can be called “good.” Even Jesus refused to be called “good.” If both men are Baptised, then they each have an indelible mark on their soul that says “Property of G*D.” Even though they are still sinners, just as I am most certainly a sinner! But you and I know that “being a Christian” is as easy as following Jesus. Not an easy thing to do if you love/idolize other things in life before G*D.

    So Biden does what most of us do as Christians; he does the easy stuff and puts off the hard stuff like selling all his possessions, giving the money to the poor and taking up his cross. I see Biden loving his neighbor, but only some of them – certainly not his enemies. Trump seems to hate his enemies and loves all his friends – heh, but not all of them!

    I see Biden advancing the destruction of human beings on one hand and Trump hindering that same destruction. Both men promise much more than they deliver, regardless of whether they can deliver on them or not. But truly, the question is not “is so-and-so a christian?” It is, “Am I a christian, and what must I do?>

    I’ll start by loving my enemies. I may never get very far past that.

    felipe (630e0b)

  214. @211.No more remarkable than Buchanan, Perot or Palin… what’s ‘remarkable’ is how their numbers have grown if only ot of being ussd to win cycles, seduced and abandoned by the establishment GOP. THe video CNN is airing released through the NewYorker, particularly the segments inside the Senate chamber, w/passive Capitol police on hand is most ‘remarkable’ of all. What do you call a group that is 1/3 opposed, 1/3 indifferent and 1/3 actively rebellious? 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  215. No more remarkable than Buchanan, Perot or Palin

    Ross Perot? I don’t recall that chart on Larry King Live.

    I was open to Sarah Palin. I am not a white supremacist. I grant she’s an embarassment and it wasn’t hard to see. I already admitted I’m a jackass. It’s Ted Cruz that really embarasses me. You can tell he’s a fake at first glance, but I didn’t see it.

    Of course that’s the best argument against Biden. Supporting someone because you’re desperate to get rid of Trump is a real window of opportunity for a dishonest politician.

    . THe video CNN is airing released through the NewYorker, particularly the segments inside the Senate chamber, w/passive Capitol police on hand is most ‘remarkable’ of all.

    Yeah. That is a problem!

    Dustin (4237e0)

  216. felipe, the parable of the two sons is very appropriate. Trump could come home right now. Perhaps he will. That could make for an epic parable. Indeed if there is a third testament in heaven I am sure we are living through an important story in it.

    Of course maybe Trump is already in the new testament, if you know what I’m saying.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  217. Trump has made a career of lying and others suffering the consequences of his lies. The coronavirus being the biggest lie, and hundreds of thousands of Americans dead from it while he got away with it. But the second biggest — that he won reelection — there’s no remdesivir, myoclonal antibodies, and dexamethasone for that.

    nk (1d9030)

  218. Thanks to frosty for inadvertently bringing this silliness to my attention

    Really-felipe believes the insurrectionists are representative of a free people, not the “madness of crowds?”

    I believe no such thing. But since you have brought it up. Those you call insurrectionists are, in fact, members of a free people who represent only themselves as private citizens, gathered as private citizens, and shall be dealt with by laws and with the rights guaranteed to private citizens. The only representatives of a free people on Jan 6 were cowering in the Capitol.

    felipe (630e0b)

  219. My point echoed from an evangelical

    “As fallout continues from the deadly siege on the U.S. Capitol, Ed Stetzer, head of the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College in Illinois, has a message for his fellow evangelicals: It’s time for a reckoning.

    Evangelicals, he says, should look at how their own behaviors and actions may have helped fuel the insurrection. White evangelicals overwhelmingly supported President Trump in the 2020 election.

    Some in the protest crowd raised signs with Christian symbolism and phrases.

    “Part of this reckoning is: How did we get here? How were we so easily fooled by conspiracy theories?” he tells NPR’s Rachel Martin. “We need to make clear who we are. And our allegiance is to King Jesus, not to what boasting political leader might come next.””

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  220. 219.Actually, its more this: The ‘Establisment GOP’ has made a career of lying and others suffering the consequences of their lies.

    “For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  221. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/17/2021 @ 10:43 am

    I believe I do, Dustin. Well said.

    felipe (630e0b)

  222. Those words don’t mean what you think they mean but I can tell you’ve been watching the daily recommended allotment of msnbc. Good for you.

    I don’t watch television.

    I read history.

    What’s wrong, frosty? If you want a violent white supremacist personality cult to overturn democratic elections, why not own what you’re supporting?

    Dave (1bb933)

  223. AJ Liberty, they got there through fear and hatred.

    It’s like the outrage I saw on my facebook account because that guy said “Amen and A-women” as a silly pun that would not have been out of place in a small East Texas church. Pretending that’s some kind of extremist ideology from someone who was stupid and thought “Amen” was a masculine term is simply stupid. It’s stupid and annoying.

    Instead of praying for Biden or for Atlanta or Trump to be better, it’s fear all day. Fear makes money.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  224. Evangelicals, he says, should look at how their own behaviors and actions may have helped fuel the insurrection.

    He’s absolutely right.

    “Part of this reckoning is: How did we get here? How were we so easily fooled by conspiracy theories?”

    He is right to ask that question. Would that POTUS and the Congress would ask the same of themselves as well. But the answer to the Pastor’s question is simple: you took your eyes of off G*D.

    felipe (630e0b)

  225. OFF of! Off of! Time for my old man’s nap, I guess. Time to do a shot – of Geritol.

    felipe (630e0b)

  226. #225
    When did you start attending Louie Gohmerts church?
    (I actually like the guy, but it seems like his style)

    steveg (43b7a5)

  227. Radegunda (bd00e5) — 1/17/2021 @ 9:59 am

    I’m amused by people who recite, verbatim, talking point from “their” side, can’t defend their position with reverting to more scripted responses and personal attacks, but think they’ve thought deeply about something and made up their own minds.

    It sounds like we’re both living in interesting times.

    frosty (42014a)

  228. AJ, that’s a good lead-in to French’s latest and his ongoing resistance to Christian nationalism, embodied by Franklin Graham, who wondered what “thirty pieces of silver” the ten Republicans received from Pelosi to not fall in line, likening them to the worst traitor in biblical history. Seeing self-proclaimed Christians praying to Jesus from the seat of the President of the Senate, after violently storming the Capitol is nothing short of infuriating.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  229. Frosty @201-
    Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/17/2021 @ 9:09 am

    American soldiers don’t goose step.

    They didn’t used to but we’re doing a lot of things we didn’t used to. Times they are a changing.

    I consider your comment about goose stepping American soldiers to be an insult to those who fought real goose stepping troops. To compare them with the Wehrmacht, North Korea, et. al. is outrageous.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  230. Happy Birthday Betty White (99).

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  231. People have said that, and it’s a ridiculous interpretation. People should stop stretching the law.
    Trump gave a reason why supposedly Raffensperger might be committing a criminal act.

    C’mon, Sammy. Whether you feel or Trump feels there was a reason to threaten Raffensperger, it was still a threat. The most powerful man on earth spent an hour haranguing a state election official. Yours is not a reasonable answer, and you’re clearly bending over backward to give Trump every possible benefit of the doubt.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  232. @Dustin@214

    I’ve never been a big fan of the “Do as I say and not as I do” style of leadership, which I think is more where Trump come in as far as Christianity is concerned. His life is not a good example, it’s more like a terrible warning. Biden appears to be the opposite. He says you can have abortion, a promiscuous lifestyle, a torn up family life even if all that isn’t a great idea, then he lives what appears to be a blameless life (as far as a politician can live a blameless life :P).

    I have also noticed that other than abortion, Democrats tend to have policies that are intended to be more pro-life supportive (in the Catholic sense of it as a seamless garment- life promoting from conception to natural death) while Republican policies other than abortion (obv pro) and the death penalty (obv not pro-life) tend to be pro-life neutral? agnostic? not applicable? So it should be more an act of weighing over-all benefit IMO rather than choosing one side or the other.

    (I have been accused in the past of making things more complicated than they need to be, I do not feel ashamed of that in any way. :P)

    Nic (896fdf)

  233. When did you start attending Louie Gohmerts church?
    (I actually like the guy, but it seems like his style)

    steveg (43b7a5) — 1/17/2021 @ 11:14 am

    Yeah that’s what I meant. I’ve spent many a Sunday in an east Texas church, with an attendance under 75, maybe under 50. I would definitely see folks not unlike Joe Biden, and I would definitely never see folks anything like Trump. I’m not the judge of anybody, and many people do not consider church attendance to be part of their faith, but it’s remarkable that some folks think Trump is one of them and Biden isn’t.

    I’m amused by people who recite, verbatim, talking point from “their” side, can’t defend their position with reverting to more scripted responses and personal attacks, but think they’ve thought deeply about something and made up their own minds.

    It sounds like we’re both living in interesting times.

    frosty (42014a) — 1/17/2021 @ 11:15 am

    This is a psychological defense mechanism on your part. You are so sure that people who were right all along are really not right, that they are just brainwashed, and it’s you who is exposing it. Do unto others!

    Dustin (4237e0)

  234. Sammy @172

    long before President Trump’s rally at the other end of the mall

    Radegunda (bd00e5) — 1/17/2021 @ 9:50 am

    The important thing is that Trump’s rally speech — in which he told his supporters they needed to “fight like hell” with “strength” or else they “won’t have a country anymore” — was a continuation of things he had been saying since before the election that encouraged radicals to fly to D.C. in the first place and filled them with murderous rage against every government official who would not overturn the election and reinstall him in power, including the vice president, who may have been less than a minute away from being lynched.

    The first problem here with this is that the impeachment resolution says his speech incited them with these words. And it doesn’t say he did anything further, but attributes the assault on the Capitol to those words alone. (and claims it was foreseeable, although nobody who heard that speech foresaw it)

    This is simply not true.

    To quote the poem “Capitol Crimes” by Chaim ashevkin in the currrent Yated Ne’eman magazine (it doesn’t come together too well – he even comments about making his rhymes but this stanza is good)

    Offices simply were invaded
    Private files, they were raided
    Was this not all anticipated?
    With simple tweets
    They were persuaded?

    To say his statements foreseeably led to what happened is an anti-free speech ideology, and a bad (even if only moral, not legal) precedent and is false.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/14/opinion/trump-trial-incitement.html

    Evidence that violence was plotted ahead of time, and that some marauders set off for the Capitol before some of the president’s most inflammatory remarks, might also undercut any legal finding that Mr. Trump’s words were a primary cause of the havoc.

    I’M NOT SURE ANY OF THE MARAUDERS CAME TO THE CAPITOL FROM THE RALLY AT THE ELLIPSE.

    The impeachment article does refer to Trump’s “prior efforts to subvert and obstruct the certification of the results the certification of the results of the 2020 Presidential election”
    but even there it leaves out what he was doing that day [!?] and only mentions his call to Brad Raffensperger and there it distorts what he said, (apparently because some “Philadelphia lawyer” thought it could be construed to be a crime) and it doesn’t quite make any of that a grounds for impeachment, but mainly just the attack on the Capitol alone, which is attributed only to the force of his words. Although there is a bit of an expanded accusation at the end.

    Suzanne Nossel writes:

    It is reasonable to ask whether a more expansive definition of incitement ought to be considered; for example, if Mr. Trump was found to have been aware of plans for an attack when he spoke, that could color the interpretation of his words.

    I think that wouldn’t change what his words meant, but it might make them part of a conspiracy.

    It is also fair to ask whether the authority wielded by those in high positions should inform the incitement test, recognizing, for example, that the legitimization of extreme tactics by a sitting president is far more damaging to democracy than similar claims by an ordinary citizen.

    Well, the problem here is, again, he didn’t legitimize extreme tactics. Unless he did it secretly. Which we don’t know if he did or not.

    What he did do is ask the crowd to endorse an extreme (and totally unjustified) action by Congress.

    Suzanne Nossel wrote that, to really be guilty of incitement, criminally, which admittedly is not the same criteria you might use for an impeachment:

    First, the advocacy must be intended to spur lawlessness; Second, the encouraged lawbreaking must be imminent, or about to happen right away. Third, the speech must be likely to cause such lawbreaking to occur. Before Brandenburg, jurisprudence had defined incitement more loosely, permitting restrictions on speech based on a mere “bad tendency” to bring about a harm the government had a right to prevent.

    It is a big question if this was intended. She claims it was likely, but that’s not true, unless you had inside information. And the point she has in mind about it being imminent, is that none of Trump’s earlier claims about the election can be tied to the Capitol riot.

    You can accuse Trump of a more involved conspiracy (in theory at least) but you can’t say this.

    That only deflects blame from the people charged with security. That is; “We couldn’t know what would happen; it wasn’t gonna happen until Trump spoke that morning.”

    There is video of Capitol invaders saying they were there because the president invited them or instructed them to be there.

    That is true. But he didn’t instruct them to storm the Capitol. That’s wasn’t on the official program. People ignore or don;t know there actually was a program for the rally at hthe Capitol (there must have been)

    Again, the question would be: Did he secretly plan this? And what did he plan?

    Maybe it’s conceivable that some extremists might have stormed the Capitol and tried to murder elected officials even if Trump hadn’t spent the past two months raging that the election was “viciously” stolen from him and portraying large portions of the government as a force of evil if his demands were not met

    No, no. That was key to it. But that’s different from intending what happened to happen.

    Nobody thought that would happen. They thought pro-Trump extremists would fight with counter-protesters, maybe, and Washington D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser told everybody not to come near them.

    He also has a history of encouraging physical violence — even if he’s too cowardly to get in a scuffle himself.

    Not on that scale. Not against police or men in blue. Maybe abit against journalists.

    How far did he go in endorsing protesting groups in Michigan and Wisconsin?

    (That video doesn’t include Trump’s praise for the “strength” of tyrants who “viciously” and effectively put down peaceful protests.)

    Not in this context. And if you say it is “vicious” are you really praising them? Admiring that aspect of things, maybe.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  235. …but isn’t Joe Biden a better Christian man than Donald Trump?

    This presumes that Trump is a Christian, and there’s no evidence that he is one. By written and spoken word, he has never stated that Christ is his Personal Lord and Savior, he expressly stated he’s never prayed for forgiveness. He said one single time, in the weeks before the election, that he’s a “non-denominational Christian”. By word and deed, there’s as much evidence that this election was “stolen” as there is that Trump is a Christ follower.
    Biden is a mass-going Catholic.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  236. 236 * Chaim Bashevkin I still missed one typographical error.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  237. LA is closing the Dodger Stadium vaccination site for MLK day.
    Can I still blame Bush?
    Some vaccinations sites in LA County were only running 6 hours a day… probably because that is a public employee union full days work.
    Reminds me of the three times I’ve had to evacuate because of brush fires.
    The worst was the little post office where I have my box was closed for a month due to the Thomas Fire and then another three weeks when a subsequent mudslide knocked out all the bridges.
    Had to stand in line all day to get mail at the main post office. The week after the closure the main PO downtown was ready to hand out mail to evacuees. The line was through the parking lot and down the street by 7AM. They opened at 9AM and had no system so the line barely moved.
    At noon everyone in the USPS stopped and took lunch at the same time rather than staggering the lunch hour. 1PM the line starts again. 3PM closed.
    Come back tomorrow. Did they give out numbers to the people who waited in line all day so they could be in the first wave tomorrow? No. First come, first served. When I finally get my mail after 3 days, I needed business mail from PO BOX XXXXX. The woman disappeared for 20 minutes at least. I could see why street addresses could be a booger to organize at first, but it can be done… but PO BOX? Those are sequential and its really no different than inside the Post office… you label the slot with the number and sort mail by number and insert mail into slot.
    I asked why they don’t use a system where PO BOX lines are over there numbers 1-100 this line, 101 to 200 that line. They could have done addresses by color coded map using volunteers (no volunteers allowed… takes away union overtime) to direct you to line Red, or Orange etc and when you get there show ID or a bill saying “I live at XXXX Bella Vista Dr. 93108″… and I am confident there’s a way better idea than mine out there, but they had a bad plan, and the bad plan was poorly organized. I’ve registered for Tough Mudder races where thousands all show up at the same time to pick up race packets and you can get through the line and out with your stuff in less than 20 minutes. Triathlons, marathons, etc all have this down.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  238. People have said that, and it’s a ridiculous interpretation. People should stop stretching the law.

    Trump gave a reason why supposedly Raffensperger might be committing a criminal act.

    233. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/17/2021 @ 11:33 am

    C’mon, Sammy. Whether you feel or Trump feels there was a reason to threaten Raffensperger, it was still a threat.

    I don’t and I don’t think Trump really did either, but it was empty threat, because it depended either on Raffensperger really being guilty of a crime (the “crime” of not reporting a crime ,which is actually almost always not a crime – but what do you expect from Trump?) or it was a threat to misuse governmental power against Raffensperger, but that threat, even if that was what Trump had meant, was not credible because Trump was not going to stay inn power very much longer, and Raffensperger knew it.

    And Trump didn’t have a history of engineering malicious prosecutions, or even investigations, against his political opponents, although the same cannot be said for some Democrats. And they didn’t even need for a Democrat to be president to do that!

    The most powerful man on earth spent an hour haranguing a state election official. Yours is not a reasonable answer, and you’re clearly bending over backward to give Trump every possible benefit of the doubt.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  239. @Paul@237 In all fairness to Trump (I know, I know) saying that Christ is your Personal Lord and Savior is a phrase specific to certain Protestant subcultures. I would never say it that way, even though I do consider myself to be a believer.

    Nic (896fdf)

  240. I don’t and I don’t think Trump really did either, but it was empty threat…

    Thank you acknowledging that Trump actually did threaten Raffensperger, but whether the threat was “empty” or incompetently done, it’s still a threat. The most powerful man on earth has Republican allies in Georgia, including a Republican Attorney General with the power to indict a Secretary of State for criminal allegations.
    And that is the deal with Trump: He tried and failed to corrupt Raffensperger, but that doesn’t mean he hasn’t succeeded at corrupting others in his sphere.
    The thing is, Trump had no business making nearly 20 attempts to call Raffensperger in the first place. It was wholly inappropriate. A president with the barest understanding of the Constitution should know that states determine the manner of how they conduct elections. Funny how Trump is all about federalism, except when it conflicts with his personal political ambition.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  241. It was initially reported that $400M of fraudulent COVID related unemployment claims had been paid out by the State of CA.
    Now its up to 10 Billion. Heckuva job Gov. Hair Gel

    I am supposed to be confident that these people have a system that lets bad actors easily steal billions but hey, fraud involving mail in voting with no verifications? Never happens.
    If a thief can use fake ID to get billions, why can’t a state actor get thousands of ballots in a system that requires no ID at all? (Not saying the election was stolen… but am saying an election could be stolen)

    steveg (43b7a5)

  242. Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca) — 1/17/2021 @ 12:16 pm

    The most powerful man on earth spent an hour haranguing a state election official.

    Yes. But after all, he was the candidate. Are we gin to make it a condition that somebody has a right to make his case, that he, in fact, be right in what he pleads? I say leave this alone.

    You can include this as one example of his trying to get officials to depart from the normal and usual processes of government in order to help him continue in the office of president for another term, but I think the capstone of that is what he wanted Mike Pence and/or members of Congress to do on January 6.

    And for some reason Nancy Pelosi and company did not want to make that a grounds for impeachment, but preferred accusing him of things he didn’t do. Maybe because they thought that would not be a precedent for a future impeachment because they could be considered criminal acts, and not legal arguments, (the Raffensperer call is supposed to be the crime of encouraging the falsification of election results rather than the politically unacceptable activity of urging someone to do something he had no reason to believe was proper) or because they thought it would legitimize censorship. It is the repeated and cumulative nature of what Trump did after the election that creates grounds for impeachment.

    culminating in an effort to have Congress refuse to count and accept a certain number of Electoral votes, which Congress had no right to do.

    You can m

    Yours is not a reasonable answer, and you’re clearly bending over backward to give Trump every possible benefit of the doubt.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  243. I hear what you’re saying, Nic, but every adult baptism and every confirmation involves a profession of faith, and the Catholic liturgy is an outspoken profession of faith toward Christ, so I don’t see how it’s limited to “certain Protestant subcultures”, whatever than means, but it sounds like you’re saying that such a proclamation is relegated to the fringy backwaters of the faith, where snakes may or may not be involved.
    As a Presbyterian-Lutheran-Foursquare-Baptist, it’s a fairly common thing, even in the un-churched Pacific Northwest.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  244. 243 steveg (43b7a5) — 1/17/2021 @ 12:34 pm

    I am supposed to be confident that these people have a system that lets bad actors easily steal billions but hey, fraud involving mail in voting with no verifications? Never happens.

    A person doesn’t get money for that.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  245. * 144. Are we goign to make it a condition that somebody has a right to make his case, that he, in fact, be right in what he pleads? That’s dangerous.

    Yours is not a reasonable answer, and you’re clearly bending over backward to give Trump every possible benefit of the doubt.

    It’s not so much the benefit of the doubt that he believes much of what he says, as a belief that arguing your case with officials should not be made into a crime in and of itself.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  246. Yes. But after all, he was the candidate.

    No, Sammy, Trump was not the candidate. The election was well over. The campaign was over for weeks, and the election was certified by every state. A fork was put in his candidacy on December 15th.
    Trump was Leader of the Free World when he called that state official, and Trump had all the powers of incumbency at his avail.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  247. …but isn’t Joe Biden a better Christian man than Donald Trump?

    All I know is that God might want to have a word with someone who says he doesn’t need forgiveness for anything and holds up a Bible as a political prop/photo-op.

    Judge a man by the fruits of the Spirit. That is not the same thing as low-hanging fruit…

    Dana (cc9481)

  248. @ 173

    Kevin McCarthy is getting no credit with the pro-Trump people because he came out in favor of censure..

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/16/us/kevin-mccarthy-trump-california-republican.html

    … But in the days since impeachment, some Republicans now say he has not been loyal enough to President Trump.
    ———————-
    …Mr. McCarthy has been pilloried nationally and throughout California for being loyal to Mr. Trump to the bitter end — voting to overturn the election results hours after a mob of the president’s supporters stormed the Capitol and urging censure of the president instead of impeachment.

    Democrats and some Republicans called on him to step down. The anti-Trump Lincoln Project released an ad calling him a “pathetic enabler” and urging his staff to “pack up your desk and leave that loser behind.” A scathing Sacramento Bee editorial denounced him for having “a soulless lack of principle” and for abusing his authority “to promote big, dangerous lies about the election.”

    But in his home district — one of the most conservative in California — Mr. McCarthy has been under fire for not being loyal enough.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca) — 1/17/2021 @ 7:09 am

    I’ve been doing a lot of reading and thinking these last few days regarding Trump, the Jan 6th riot, #StopTheSteal and the whole impeachment bruhaha.

    This is going to be a stream of conscious post, so feel free to parse and respond.

    This is my opinion based on what I perceive as the facts on the ground, if there’s something awry here please comment.

    I believe what happened on Jan 6th was a planned protest that ended up being an unplanned riot. Along the same vein as much of the BLM protests. The vast majority of the participants weren’t planning on to riot outside of small handful of folks looking for chaos.

    I’m in the camp that the Trump campaign has the right to challenge the election in courts. I wish they didn’t make bombastic claims publicly, but I don’t believe any of it was illegal. I think it’s ridiculous to try to charge the likes of Cruz and Hawley under the 14th amendment and kick ’em out of office. Politically, there should be a price to either outright lying or over-embellishing certain claims. But we know that *price* is rarely, if ever, manifests (*cough*see aftermath of 2016*cough*). But it should most DEFINITELY be a factor in their next election.

    Impeachment, however, is a political question and I think too many are hung up over the idea that penal laws must be broken in order to justify impeachment.

    For instance, gun to the head, these would be *my* impeachment articles for Trump:
    1) Refusing to concede after the State’s Electors were certified. We’re a federal system and states *ARE* sovereigns. (yay for federalism!) Trump campaign had every right to pursue legal avenues to contest the election… however, once the slate of electors are certified…that’s it. The sovereign (that is the State) has “spoken”. Another aspect that was indefensible was pressuring Congress , and especially VP Pence, to abuse their own office to overturn the election. Continuing to challenge and pressuring other elected officials after the certification would do nothing for the campaign, other than to create groundswell to undermine the election. (note: Just because Democrats did this in 2016 doesn’t excuse the campaign/GOP for their 2020 behaviors).

    2) To me, probably the most damning is this: Trump’s lack of immediate response during the rioting on Jan 6th was indefensible. It shouldn’t of taken Trump several hours to call for calm and peace. Trump should’ve immediately ordered police/secret service/military to take control of the situation. As POTUS, Trump’s lack of response was truly the most indefensible aspect of this whole ordeal.

    He should’ve been impeached/removed on Jan 7th, imo.

    Now…about this Democrat’s Impeachment.

    INCITEMENT OF INSURRECTION

    A) Is either the most idiotic, sloppy piece of work just so that Democrats can show that they *did something*.

    B) Or, follow me here, an incredibly long term political cudgel against the GOP.

    For (A): It’s a mistake for Democrats to leverage “Incitement” and “Insurrection” in the impeachment articles as those has defined penal criterias that makes it easier for Trump defenders to defend at the Senate trial. None of what Trump and his orbit have done would’ve been charged under federal incitement laws (ie, soliciting imminent violent acts). Samething with “insurrection”, both of which would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to charge/convict in court.

    The whole damn purpose of ANY impeachment is to ENSURE that there’s wide support to REMOVE the President. You do that by making the charges so strong, that even the president’s own defenders have difficulties to vote ‘not guilty’.

    (B) Or, it could be a brilliant tactic for Democrats, as they have the votes in the House (irrespective in the Senate). They know Trump is done on 1/20 and using this rationale, this puts “incitement of insurrection” in the record, as such, Democrats can use politically to bludgeon their GOP opponents in the future.

    With Democrats controlling pretty much most of Congress and the Whitehouse, I’m leaning towards the latter of the rationale, rather than former. These folks aren’t dumb, and are almost always thinking about the future.

    If it were REALLY about sending a “signal” that what Trump has done was inexcusable. Then, understanding that getting a conviction in the Senate is near impossible. Pelosi should just withhold from sending the impeachment to the Senate, then draft a bi-partisan Censure that would definitely pass in both houses.

    That way, Trump cannot claim vindication while getting a formal censure. Having a Censure over his behaviors post-election and the fact that he’s the only President impeached twice, should be enough to say “what Trump did in 2020 is not acceptable, so don’t do it” (not that he’d care).

    whembly (c30c83)

  249. @Paul 230, Franklin Graham’s Facebook post is astonishing. Here’s an excerpt from French’s piece:

    “Shame, shame on the ten Republicans who joined with Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats in impeaching President Trump yesterday. After all that he has done for our country, you would turn your back and betray him so quickly?….[List of Trump accomplishments]…..But the Democrats impeached him because they hate him and want to do as much damage as they can. And these ten, from his own party, joined in the feeding frenzy. It makes you wonder what the thirty pieces of silver were that Speaker Pelosi promised for this betrayal.”

    I’m not going to attack Graham for not supporting impeachment…it’s a political judgment that good people can disagree about, but to attack others who come to a different conclusion seems to…at minimum…lack Christian charity….and seems to elevate partisanship over all else…especially principles of what is right or wrong. I think Graham is an example of someone who once he went all in on Trump, any attack on Trump is seen as a personal attack on Graham’s judgment and wisdom. The impulse has to be “I couldn’t be wrong” or “I couldn’t have been fooled” because I’m too smart for that….so rationalize, rationalize (which seems to throw the 30 pieces of silver argument right back at him). But early and fervent evangelical cover is what helped Trump succeed in the primaries and understanding its root is important moving forward….

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  250. 242. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/17/2021 @ 12:32 pm

    Thank you acknowledging that Trump actually did threaten Raffensperger, but whether the threat was “empty” or incompetently done, it’s still a threat. The most powerful man on earth has Republican allies in Georgia, including a Republican Attorney General with the power to indict a Secretary of State for criminal allegations.

    Well, you have to show that. I don’t think Trump really had allies.

    I think Trump’s most threatening words were:

    The people of Georgia know that this was a scam. Because of what you’ve done to the president, a lot of people aren’t going out to vote, and a lot of Republicans are going to vote negative because they hate what you did to the president. Okay? They hate it, and they’re going to vote negative because they hate what you did to the president. Okay? They hate it, and they’re going to vote. And you would be respected, really respected, if this thing could be straightened out before the election. You have a big election coming up on Tuesday. And therefore, I think that it really is important that you have meet [sic] tomorrow and work out on these numbers.

    President Trump: (56:01)

    Because I know, Brad, if you think we’re right, I think you’re going to say… And I’m not looking to blame anybody. I’m not blaming. I’m just saying that under new counts and under new views of the election results, we won the election. It’s very simple. We won the election. As the governor of major states and the surrounding states, there’s no way you lost Georgia. As the Georgia politicians say, there is no way you lost Georgia. Nobody, everyone knows I won it by hundreds of thousands of votes. But I’ll tell you it’s going to have a big impact on Tuesday if you guys don’t get this thing straightened out fast.

    Paul Montagu:

    And that is the deal with Trump: He tried and failed to corrupt Raffensperger, but that doesn’t mean he hasn’t succeeded at corrupting others in his sphere.

    He did, some members of state legislatures, some state party leaders, aut mostly members of Congress. He mostly, or only, succeeded in corrupting people who knew that what they did would not be determinative.

    The thing is, Trump had no business making nearly 20 attempts to call Raffensperger in the first place. It was wholly inappropriate.

    OK for his lawyers, but not for him?

    A president with the barest understanding of the Constitution should know that states determine the manner of how they conduct elections. Funny how Trump is all about federalism, except when it conflicts with his personal political ambition.

    He was not only ignorant or disregarding of the constitution, he or some legal advisers were inventing law.

    He lied not only about the election, but about election law. And he had no trick up his sleeve.

    By the way, Raffensperger only took Trumps’s call after it was all out of his hands. And he taped it.

    Brad Raffensperger: (14:02)

    Well, I listened to what the president has just said, President Trump, we’ve had several lawsuits and we’ve had to respond in court to the lawsuits and the contentions. We don’t agree that you have one. I didn’t agree about the 200,000 number that you’d mentioned, and I’ll go through that point by point.

    What we had done is we gave our State Senate about one and a half hours of our time going through the election issue by issue. And then on the State House, the Government Affairs Committee, we gave them about two and a half hours of our time going back point by point on all the issues of contention. And then just a few days ago, we met with our US congressmen, Republican congressmen. And we gave them about two hours of our time talking about this past election.

    Going back, primarily what you’ve talked about, you focused in on primarily, I believe it’s the absentee ballot process. I don’t believe that you’re really questioning the Dominion machines because we did a hand re-tally, a 100% re-tally of all the ballots and compare that to what the machine said. And it came up with virtually the same result. Then we did the recount, and we got virtually the same result. So I guess we can probably take that off the table.

    I don’t think there’s an issue about that. I think what you [crosstalk 00:15:33].

    President Trump: (15:33)

    Well, Brad. Not that there’s not an issue, because we have a big issue with Dominion in other states and perhaps in yours. But we haven’t felt we needed to go there.

    Because he could get to 11, 780 without that.

    He was hoping maybe to get Trump to stop.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  251. Can a Former President Be Impeached and Convicted?
    ……..
    …….. Trump’s defense team will undoubtedly argue that the Senate does not have jurisdiction over the former president, and they may even attempt to get judicial intervention if the Senate moves ahead despite that objection. Assuming the Senate (and the courts) do not shut down the trial before it gets started, the jurisdictional argument might still matter. It takes only a majority of senators to overrule the motion to dismiss, but it will take two-thirds to convict on the article of impeachment. Some number of Republican senators might latch hold of the jurisdictional argument as a reason to vote against conviction. For this reason, it’s worth taking this issue seriously.
    ………
    ……… The Constitution does not specify the scope of the impeachment power, except to delineate the types of charges that can be the basis for an impeachment, limit the types of punishments the Senate can impose on the convicted, and direct that certain officers “shall be removed from office” upon impeachment and conviction.

    So it seems important to know what this “power of impeachment” is that has been vested in the House. The founders borrowed this power from British parliamentary practice and state constitutional practice, which does not suggest that the “power of impeachment” was intrinsically limited to incumbent officers. Quite the contrary, in fact: British practice indicates that the “power of impeachment” is the power to lodge formal allegations that an individual engaged in misconduct while holding a governmental office. Impeachments of former officers were both known and explicitly textually allowed. The framers did not discuss the matter one way or another, but they could easily have understood that the “power of impeachment” implicitly includes a jurisdiction over former officials. The text is at best vague and at worst includes former officers. And if the House can impeach them, then the Senate can try them, because the Senate has the power “to try all impeachments.”

    Of course, in Trump’s case the impeachment is of a current officer, and so the question is whether the Senate loses jurisdiction if the impeached officer resigns or completes his term before the trial. But if the Senate has the power “to try all impeachments,” then it would seem that it has the power to try all individuals whom the House has impeached and brought to trial regardless of whether that individual still holds public office. ……..

    ……… According to Section 4, incumbent officers “shall be removed” upon conviction,which is why the Senate does not take a separate vote on whether to remove—instead, removal is automatic and instantaneous upon conviction. Section 4 says nothing about what happens to former officers. And Article I states that the punishment that the Senate can levy after conviction “shall not extend further” than removal and disqualification. So while the Senate has limited punishments it can impose, Article I says nothing about whether Senate trials or punishments are limited to incumbent officers.
    ………
    ………(Is) the sole purpose of impeachment is to remove an officeholder to prevent further harm by that individual in that particular office? Such a framing ignores the additional punishment available to the Senate after conviction—disqualification from future federal office. Removal is wholly sufficient to prevent the “further harm” an incumbent officeholder might do. Disqualification is necessary to ensure that that individual—such as a serially corrupt judge—has no opportunity to do similar harm in the future.
    ……….
    ……….President Trump has been “constitutionally impeached.” He is “at the time of his impeachment” an incumbent president, and the House has now resolved by majority vote to impeach him. Setting aside the question of whether presentation to the Senate is necessary to complete the House’s process of “impeachment,” Trump has by our modern reckoning now been “constitutionally impeached.” At that point, trial, conviction and disqualification would appear to be on the table, even if removal is not.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  252. @217. Recall ‘that giant sucking sound’ instead, Dustin. This has been fermenting and festering for decades– and I has finally boiled over: ‘1/3rd indifferent; 1/3rd opposed; 1/3rd rebellious.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  253. The conservative case for impeaching a person after serving in office, made four years ago by Andrew McCarthy. I thought he made a good case back then and I still agree with it.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  254. ^ I = it. Typo.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  255. @Paul@245 Sure, and I say the Nicene Creed at every Mass, but it isn’t something I go around reciting publicly generally.

    it sounds like you’re saying that such a proclamation is relegated to the fringy backwaters of the faith, where snakes may or may not be involved.

    I’m not saying that, and I’m sorry that it came across that way to you. My point was that it is a phrase commonly used by some segments of a variety of protestant religious denominations but not a phrase commonly used across all Christianity and it wouldn’t be unreasonable if someone didn’t use that specific language to describe their state of Faith. I am not arguing whether Trump is or in not a good Christian.

    Nic (896fdf)

  256. @217. Recall ‘that giant sucking sound’ instead, Dustin. This has been fermenting and festering for decades– and I has finally boiled over: ‘1/3rd indifferent; 1/3rd opposed; 1/3rd rebellious.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/17/2021 @ 1:17 pm

    I think there is a dimmer view. People are always like this, tribal, fearful, looking to be very, very right about things they don’t understand. Our political systems over time, philsopher king style republics or tyrants or a lot in between, just hide that a bit, so we can enjoy a better life. Putin is engaged in a long game against democracy, and for his evil empire, and somehow used Trump to divide a nation bitterly. The nation was already divided, and always was, and for very dark reasons, but we were getting along a lot better without the troll in chief.

    Remember, Trump wished Ghislaine well. Epstein had tapes. Trump was their pal and is an extreme creep.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  257. This makes sense to me. for the BLM riots and for Jan 6. As witnessed and told by a combat correspondent. Things are not as they seem.

    felipe (630e0b)

  258. @258. You’re young; keep ’em busy, well fed, reasonably well paid [we once called it the middle class] entertained [“baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet”] and hope for better lives for their kids and the ‘hiccups’ will dissipate. Ignore the sore, and the pain grows. Hence, the plagiarist-elect best get it through his brain-operated thick skull: “$2000 means $2000, not $1400.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  259. Dustin, it’s short-sighted to truncate blame and just dump it solely on Trump. It has been building to a boil for decades.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  260. Hence, the plagiarist-elect best get it through his brain-operated thick skull: “$2000 means $2000, not $1400.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/17/2021 @ 2:07 pm

    He’s going to use the crisis, same as the rest. He’ll smile more and the press will make him think it’s working. A whole agenda will get tacked onto the issues of vaccines and emergency assistance. I hope I’m wrong. Biden was the price, not the cure.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  261. @262. Only an ‘arse’ will parse’ he best get his in gear but at his age, and given his half-century of swampiness, I have little confidence in him. No Lincoln of FDR he.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  262. Felipe ~259, I’d feel a lot more comfortable if the “provs” got turned or beaten by the true believers on that days’ cause, but not before a full confession.

    In many ways, months from now, Q might be a proven to be a long-game bad actor – I thought they were aiming for “get to hand out my pocket” closeness to Trump, but they have been positioned to be an agitation agent to produce justification for the over-reaction.

    urbanleftbehind (35dcf5)

  263. Get yo hand out my pocket, I meant to quote.

    urbanleftbehind (35dcf5)

  264. Dustin, it’s short-sighted to truncate blame and just dump it solely on Trump. It has been building to a boil for decades.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/17/2021 @ 2:13 pm

    Depends on your perspective. If the anger is an ever present human condition, and Trump exploited it to divide the nation as much as possible, then yeah, I can blame him. It’s like if I drown someone, you could blame the ocean I guess.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  265. But I don’t just blame Trump. I definitely blame our nation’s enemies, both foreign and domestic. Steve Bannon laid it out plain as day what he wanted Trump to accomplish.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  266. @266. Depends on your perspective.

    Except it doesn’t. It depends on biases.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  267. @267. Bannon is a mere pitchforker; go back to Buchanan.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  268. Heading ‘into a buzzsaw': Why extremism experts fear the Capitol attack is just the beginning
    ……
    Experts shared growing concern about chatter around a unifying message of people who feel wronged — by those in power, by the political system and by Big Tech.
    ……
    Some who had communicated via Facebook, Twitter or even Parler are now on other platforms. Those include Telegram, where extremists and White supremacist channels have existed and spewed hate for years in channels largely unmoderated until just days ago.

    On many of these channels, there is frequent praise of mass killers, tactical instructions and vile and disturbing radicalizing content being spread rapidly.

    “Our moderators are reviewing an increased number of reports related to public posts with calls to violence, which are expressly forbidden by our Terms of Service,” Telegram spokesperson Remi Vaughn told CNN in a statement on Wednesday. Vaughn added: “We welcome peaceful discussion and peaceful protests, but routinely remove publicly available content that contains direct calls to violence.”
    ……
    In public and private chats there are common messages about plotting to “take back America” or rallying together against supposed censorship, according to Angelo Carusone, president and CEO of Media Matters for America. Carusone and his team have been tracking extremist language and posting in a variety of media landscapes.
    …….
    Fringe online spaces are now seeing far-right figures, hate-filled White supremacists, and racists who have clamored for civil war mix with QAnon conspiracists and ardent President Trump supporters who have listened to him for years and believe the election was stolen from them. And many are figuring out what to do next — and how to craft their messages.
    ……
    “ The FBI cannot open an investigation without a threat of violence or alleged criminal activity. However, when that language does turn to a call for violence or criminal activity, the FBI is able to undertake investigative activity,” the agency said.
    …….
    The extremism experts agree on several glaring points on how we got here and where we may be going. America is in the midst of a mass radicalization of sorts. The fire starter was not Trump, they say; he simply threw gas on the flames.

    Seeing Biden inaugurated, a Black and South Asian woman as his Vice President, and then realizing that Trump is gone will fan the flames for those who will falsely claim the Biden administration is illegitimate. …..
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  269. @267. Bannon is a mere pitchforker; go back to Buchanan.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/17/2021 @ 2:41 pm

    Buchanan’s a mere pitchforker. Go back to Trump’s voters.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  270. This makes sense to me. for the BLM riots and for Jan 6. As witnessed and told by a combat correspondent. Things are not as they seem.

    FakeNews, felipe. There were token BLM/Antifa types, but the January 6th Insurrection was done by MAGA mobsters.
    Epoch Times is not trustworthy. I’m really disappointed in Michael Yon.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  271. @144: Show me.

    See #89.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  272. But what about he overnight coronovirus cleaning of the White House?

    It’s what it says in the 3-ring transition binder.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  273. I want the republican party to find its way back to reality, but it isn’t happening right now, and it would be…

    I would, but I’m concerned that attending a GOP party meeting in my area would get me labeled a White Supremacist on someone’s hate list.

    Also, that there would be a lot of White Supremacists at the meeting.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  274. Of course, everyone could join the Democrat Party and drag THEM back to sanity….

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  275. I’ll say this for the antifa/BLM Capital rioters pretending to be Trump supporters. They’re really getting the hang of aping the authentic MAGA troglodyte vacant stare and dudebro body language. (Go t the top of the thread and scroll down for a daunting array of galaxy brains.)

    lurker (59504c)

  276. Speaking of galaxy brains.

    The 1/6 arrest reports are replete with tales like this.

    lurker (59504c)

  277. Spot the BLM/Antifa types. Or are they all crisis actors?

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  278. @271. Doesn’t work that way, Dustin. These people are “you”- wholly GOP fueled, cultured, courted, seduced and betrayed. And they finally got out of control and swopped ends on ’em.

    “Now he’s uncorked it!” – Jack Ridley [Levon Helm] ‘The Right Stuff’ 1983

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  279. Cawthorn Says Capitol Mob Was Paid by Democrats
    In the middle of the siege of the Capitol on Jan. 6, while a mob of insurrectionists still roamed the halls and ransacked offices, leaving five dead and dozens injured, Madison Cawthorn (R-Insurrectionist) called a friendly conservative radio host and blamed the violence on left-wing agitators sent by “the Democratic machine” to make President Trump look bad.

    “I believe that this was agitators strategically placed inside of this group — you can call them antifa, you can call them people paid by the Democratic machine — but to make the Trump campaign, the Trump movement, look bad. And to make this look like it was a violent outrage, when really the battle was being fought by people like myself and other great patriots who are standing up against the establishment and standing up against this tyranny that we see in our country.”
    Cawthorn to The Charlie Kirk Show, Jan. 6

    Only hours earlier, as the only member of Congress to speak at the Jan. 6 “March to Save America” protest in Washington, D.C., Cawthorn shouted, “Wow, this crowd has some fight in it!” He called the protesters “lions,” and repeatedly called his Congressional colleagues “cowards” who were hiding in their offices.

    “It’s on,” he told his followers on Twitter.
    ……..

    As reported earlier by the Asheville Citizen Times, Cawthorn has lost the support of prominent conservative backers including George Erwin Jr., a former Henderson County Sheriff, and local conservative activist Eddie Harwood.

    “Make no mistake: There is blood on his hands,” Harwood wrote on Facebook.

    Erwin, former head of the North Carolina Association of Chiefs of Police, said he was wrong to lend his support to Cawthorn and campaign on his behalf. “I apologize to all of my law enforcement friends, other politicians, family and friends – I was wrong, I misled you,” he wrote in a message posted on Facebook.
    …….

    Cawthorn is also at risk of losing support from campaign donors. Dozens of corporations and political action committees on both sides of the political spectrum have signaled their disgust for the so-called “sedition caucus” and attempts to undermine democracy by announcing they will not support candidates “who do not respect the rule of law.”
    ……..
    …….. Cawthorn was among the earliest of 147 Republicans in Congress to announce they would refuse to certify Electoral College tallies representing the legal votes of millions of Americans, in an attempt to keep Donald Trump in power.

    Critics characterized the effort as an attack on the foundation of democracy. Cawthorn called it “standing up against this tyranny.”

    A week earlier, Cawthorn posted to Twitter a video of himself announcing, “Put simply, the 2020 vote violated our constitution.” He cited “incredible Constitutional scholars” in support of his view.

    ……. He said he had “a list of thousands, yes thousands, of recent instances of election fraud that has led to criminal convictions and even the overturning of election results in our country.”

    “Fact check that,” Cawthorn challenged.

    Just a week later Cawthorn conceded that he had no proof. “I can’t personally prove fraud and I have really not seen an overwhelming amount of evidence for it,” he told Smoky Mountain News.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  280. Twitter temporarily suspends GOP Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene

    Twitter suspended Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, R-Insurrectionist, for 12 hours on Sunday, saying that she has repeatedly run afoul of the company’s misinformation policy.

    “The account referenced has been temporarily locked out for multiple violations of our civic integrity policy,” a Twitter spokesperson said.

    Greene’s most recent posts included one in which she made false claims about widespread voter fraud in Georgia in both the November election and in the Jan. 5 Senate runoffs and another series of tweets in which she repeated more debunked claims and called Georgia’s elections officials “morons.”

    Twitter restricted those posts from further promotion and slapped them with warning labels. Her account remained live, but she is unable to post.
    …….,,
    That didn’t take long…..

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  281. 255. Andrew McCarthy wrote in 2016:

    …As I recount in Faithless Execution, their exemplar was Parliament’s impeachment of Warren Hastings, an effort led by Edmund Burke at the very time our Constitution was being written.

    It is thus highly relevant for our purposes that Hastings was not in office when he was impeached. He had already retired as governor-general of India. Although the accusations lodged by Burke stemmed from Hastings’s service in India, that service was over. Though he was eventually acquitted, the dual purpose of impeaching Hastings was to condemn his performance of his prior duties and to disqualify him from future public office.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  282. Hey, Rep. Cawthorn:
    https://pin.it/y9UtMQ0

    urbanleftbehind (35dcf5)

  283. Prospect of Pardons in Final Days Fuels Market to Buy Access to Trump
    …….
    The pardon lobbying heated up as it became clear that Mr. Trump had no recourse for challenging his election defeat, lobbyists and lawyers say. One lobbyist, Brett Tolman, a former federal prosecutor who has been advising the White House on pardons and commutations, has monetized his clemency work, collecting tens of thousands of dollars, and possibly more, in recent weeks to lobby the White House for clemency for the son of a former Arkansas senator; the founder of the notorious online drug marketplace Silk Road; and a Manhattan socialite who pleaded guilty in a fraud scheme.
    ……..

    A onetime top adviser to the Trump campaign was paid $50,000 to help seek a pardon for John Kiriakou, a former C.I.A. officer convicted of illegally disclosing classified information, and agreed to a $50,000 bonus if the president granted it, according to a copy of an agreement.

    And Mr. Kiriakou was separately told that Mr. Trump’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani could help him secure a pardon for $2 million. Mr. Kiriakou rejected the offer, but an associate, fearing that Mr. Giuliani was illegally selling pardons, alerted the F.B.I. Mr. Giuliani challenged this characterization.
    ……..
    There are few historical parallels. Perhaps the closest occurred in the final hours of Bill Clinton’s administration when he issued 170 pardons and commutations, some of which went to people who paid six-figure sums to his family and associates. But even Mr. Clinton, who was seen as flouting protocols, mostly rewarded people who had gone through an intensive Justice Department review process intended to identify and vet the most deserving recipients from among thousands of clemency applications.

    Few regulations or disclosure requirements govern presidential clemency grants or lobbying for them, particularly by lawyers, and there is nothing illegal about Trump associates being paid to lobby for clemency.
    ……..
    “ The criminal justice system is badly broken, badly flawed,” said the former senator, Tim Hutchinson, a Republican who served in Congress from 1993 to 2003. He has paid Mr. Tolman at least $10,000 since late last year to lobby the White House and Congress for a pardon for his son Jeremy Hutchinson, a former Arkansas state lawmaker who pleaded guilty in 2019 to accepting bribes and tax fraud, according to a lobbying disclosure filed this month.
    …….
    A filing this month revealed that Mr. Tolman was paid $22,500 by an Arizona man named Brian Anderson who had retained him in September to seek clemency for Ross Ulbricht, the Silk Road founder. Mr. Ulbricht was sentenced to life in prison in 2015 for engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise and distributing narcotics on the internet.
    ……..
    (John) Dowd, who as the president’s lawyer had dangled a pardon to stop Mr. Trump’s former national security adviser from cooperating with investigators, had continued to informally advise Mr. Trump. He told would-be clients and their representatives that the president was likely to look favorably on petitioners who were investigated by federal prosecutors in Manhattan or tarnished by perceived leaks from the F.B.I. At the time, Mr. Trump was seeking to undermine those groups because they were investigating his conduct.
    …….
    Grifters gonna grift right up to the bitter end.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  284. As an infection subsides, so does the fever.

    In the first place, I don’t trust the Democrats to handle this any better than they handled the last one.

    In the second place, he is already out by operation of law.

    In the third place, if they want to disqualify him from holding future office because of treason, rebellion, and insurrection, the place to try him for that is the courts, not the Senate.

    McCarthy can remember Hastings, but I remember Catilina. It’s the same difference as far as American law and the precedents we want to set are concerned. Cicero found out the hard way years later what kind of worm he had planted in the heart of the Roman Republic.

    nk (1d9030)

  285. These people are “you”- wholly GOP fueled, cultured, courted, seduced and betrayed.

    Yeah I know I know, only problem is I really don’t understand what that means.

    I never supported Trump, not for a second. I thought he was dangerous, and it was disturbing that so many people supported Trump simply because he was a huge problem for the democrats, rinos, blacks, and middle eastern Americans. I support limited government and accountability, I think democracy is good. Trump does not share my views, background, or goals at all.

    Trump is a symptom of a great problem that has always existed in a multicultural society with classes, but he isn’t me.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  286. What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol
    As supporters of President Donald Trump took part in a violent riot at the Capitol, users of the social media service Parler posted videos of themselves and others joining the fray. ProPublica reviewed thousands of videos uploaded publicly to the service that were archived by a programmer before Parler was taken offline by its web host. Below is a collection of more than 500 videos that ProPublica determined were taken during the events of Jan. 6 and were relevant and newsworthy. Taken together, they provide one of the most comprehensive records of a dark event in American history through the eyes of those who took part.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  287. But what about he overnight coronovirus cleaning of the White House?

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/17/2021 @ 3:23 pm

    It’s what it says in the 3-ring transition binder.

    Is that something real, or a joke?

    I think they were cleaning it today according to either CBS or NBC. Moving vans were also seen going ut of the White House. They may be doing it in stages.

    By the way, it may cause more harm than good:

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/12/16/misting-white-house-wont-kill-covid-experts

    Misting the White House between administrations won’t kill Covid-19 — and it could be harmful, experts say

    …The World Health Organization specifically recommends against misting as a way to combat Covid-19 in both health care or non-health care settings, saying it is not only unhelpful, but can harm people in the space. So does the American Industrial Hygiene Association, which represents workplace safety and cleanliness experts. And according to the EPA, just three disinfectants — all based on hydrogen peroxide — are even effective against SARS-CoV-2 when used as a mist.

    The technique is markedly ineffective unless surfaces are also thoroughly cleaned beforehand, industrial hygienists say. And spraying disinfectant into an office’s air can be a health risk both to the employees who normally work there and to the people tasked with operating the machinery.

    “It’s a huge waste of time and effort. It probably isn’t as effective as people say it is. And it runs the risk of somebody actually breathing this stuff in where it may be extremely hazardous,” said J. David Krause, an environmental and occupational health consultant and the past chair of the AIHA’s indoor environmental quality committee. “You really only need to be treating the surfaces that people have been exposed to or can be exposed to,” he added.

    Compounding the wasted effort, Krause said, is that in the White House, misting without proper preparation could put priceless works of art at risk. “The conservators at the National Archives are probably freaking out,” he said….

    If there’s a time interval between the cleaning and somebody going there, maybe it won;t be harmful.

    But, really, all they need is ultraviolet light. Nothing more fancy or toxic. And they don’t even need that, because Covid just isn’t spread that way. Just replace the air.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  288. Why We Published More Than 500 Videos Taken by Parler Users of the Capitol Riot
    On Sunday, ProPublica published an interactive database that lets users sift through a trove of videos taken during the riot at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 and uploaded to Parler, the social network popular among supporters of President Donald Trump that was dropped by its web host Amazon earlier this month. We also published an analysis piece about the videos by Alec MacGillis.

    Since Parler was terminated by Amazon for its inaction on posts that encouraged and incited violence, we want to explain why we are reviving a subset of this material and why we believe it’s in the public interest for people to see the events of Jan. 6 as documented by, and from the perspective of, Parler users.

    First, a few details on the origins of these videos and how we chose which we’d present.

    Before Parler went offline, a loose confederation of programmers archived a huge cache of publicly available information from the service before it disappeared indefinitely. One of the programmers, who requested anonymity because of personal safety concerns, downloaded more than 1 million videos that had been posted to Parler — nearly all the videos ever uploaded to the service, according to the programmer.
    …….
    ……. ProPublica has so far only found one video from inside the Senate or House chambers, although news organizations have published photographs of rioters in those rooms holding their phones out as though they were shooting videos.

    The videos from Parler range in intensity, from frenetic, violent snippets of people clashing with police near the inaugural platform and rioters demanding to be led to the House chamber where the joint session of Congress was being held, to more prosaic clips of crowd members milling around, far from the action.

    A number of the videos capture threats to harm lawmakers, and a handful catch the kinds of behavior — smashing windows, assaulting police — that has led to criminal charges against dozens of people. It is not yet clear if law enforcement officials used the Parler videos to identify suspects, though the programmer says the FBI has access to the material.
    …….
    The users who posted the videos likely had in mind an audience of like-minded followers on a small social network. Some in the videos perform and boast for the camera, even turning the lens on themselves to do so.
    ……..
    “ We believe that presenting this large group of videos is not only undeniably in the public interest but that collecting them in this way is the essence of a transformative fair use under the copyright law,” (Jeremy Kutner, ProPublica’s general counsel) said.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  289. @289-
    The cleaning is also to get rid of the smell of sulfur.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  290. What was r Alexei Navalny thinking when he took an airplane trip to Moscow?

    That Putin had been forced to release him when he was in a medically induced coma, so now he would let him operate freely? Maybe Putin thought he wouldn’t make it.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  291. Inside the Capitol Riot: What the Parler Videos Reveal
    …….
    But there was something else that set the attack apart: Not only had we not seen something like this, but we had never been able to see any major civil clash in the way we did this one, thanks to a seemingly limitless trove of video documentation. The internet has been awash with viral clips taken by participants and members of the news media — of one police officer being brutally beaten in the crush of a mob, of another officer leading attackers away from the Senate chamber, of outlandishly dressed invaders in the Capitol.

    In fact, there is vastly more video to examine because of the circumstances of this protest-turned-invasion. Not only were a great number of the participants using their smartphones to document themselves and their compatriots as they launched the attack, but many of them in turn shared the footage on Parler. That social media service had of late become the right’s chosen alternative to “Fascist-book,” as one participant at the Capitol referred to Facebook. ……

    The videos are certainly not the last word on the subject, but taken together they do help us answer two key questions about the mob: Who were they and what were their motivations? In a decade, historians will still be writing doctoral dissertations about these questions, just as they did about the crowd that stormed the Bastille on July 14, 1789 or the mob in Adolf Hitler’s beer hall putsch. But these Parler videos deepen our understanding and take us beyond the glimpses visible so far from the relatively small number of people who have been charged with crimes.
    …….
    Our house. It is the most dominant phrase of any of the chants shouted by the mob as it presses into the Capitol. It is an expression of entitlement — white nativist entitlement, as many have noted: This is our house, our country. It’s the entitlement that leads one invader to pick up a phone in a Capitol corridor in one video and say: “Can I speak with Pelosi? Yeah, we’re coming for you, b***ch. Mike Pence? We’re coming for you too, f***king traitor.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  292. Andrew McCarthy surprised me, supporting conviction. His reasoning is sound.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  293. Trump to issue around 100 pardons and commutations Tuesday, sources say
    President Donald Trump is preparing to issue around 100 pardons and commutations on his final full day in office Tuesday, according to three people familiar with the matter, a major batch of clemency actions that includes white collar criminals, high-profile rappers and others but — as of now — is not expected to include Trump himself.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  294. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/17/2021 @ 3:05 pm

    Thank you for the link, Paul. What an unfortunate way to begin their title: “Fact check.” Any too-good-to-check hoax about the FBI (or about any other other matter) will garner its share of gullible readers and news outlets who should always be wary of such planted devices. But your link does not weaken Mr. Yon’s personal account nor does it address any of the video evidence to which he refers. What I like about the interviewers demeanor is that he appears to be skeptical of Mr. Yon, as if he did not wish to be taken in by a false witness. It is to the interviewer’s credit that we are afforded to opportunity to hear Mr. Yon’s account from his own mouth, uninterrupted by neither cheers nor jeers; the interviewer did this instead of presenting the viewer with a soundbite and then telling the viewer what that soundbite means. That device is so repugnant to my sensibilities.

    While I am always open to advice from those wishing to be helpful, You will understand if I prefer use my own good judgment as to whether any particular outfit is trustworthy. I trust this site to to present me with trustworthy information, not because I agree with it, or because it reinforces any bias I must surely posses, but because I have found the posts reasonable in both the substance and presentation – over a period time.

    Epoch times has not earned such trust from me, nor did I endorse their site – I simply said “this makes sense,” but It was Mr. Yon’s testimony, specifically, that I found to be credible. I do not attach a defect to Mr. Yon’s testimony because of the venue that presents it. That would be too parochial a reaction for me.

    The following bothers me for reasons I will make clear [bold mine]:

    There were token BLM/Antifa types, but the January 6th Insurrection was done by MAGA mobsters.

    You seem sure about this. Just how were you able to come to this particular conclusion? What definitive evidence have you seen that others have not? I, still, have not come to any decisive conclusion about it. Certainly none of those who were arrested have had their day in court – or do the legal outcomes of their cases have no bearing on the matter for you? I’ll wait for more truth to come out, thank you.

    felipe (630e0b)

  295. To paraphrase Dennis Green, they were who I thought they were.

    WASHINGTON—Members of several far-right militant groups were charged or arrested over the weekend for allegedly participating in the Jan. 6 riot at the U.S. Capitol, as investigators examine what kind of organization and planning might have gone into the attack.

    Adherents of the Proud Boys, Three Percenters and the Oath Keepers have been charged for alleged roles in the riot. Several of the groups used violent rhetoric urging members to attend the D.C. rally the day of the Capitol riot.

    And they were involved in the planning.

    On Jan. 3, three days before the attack on the Capitol, Enrique Tarrio, the leader of the far-right organization known as the Proud Boys, shared a cryptic post on the messaging app Telegram: “What if we invade it?”

    The message was sent to his more than 7,000 followers on the app, with the first reply reading “January 6th is D day in America.”

    The Wall Street Journal reviewed thousands of posts from the Proud Boys and their members across Parler, Telegram and Gab, the social-media platforms where they rallied supporters online after mostly being banned from Facebook and Twitter. The messages show the group repeatedly invoking President Trump’s rhetoric in the weeks leading to the Jan. 6 protest as they built momentum toward what became a violent showdown.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  296. I’m not sure that Mr. McCarthy’s reasoning is sound. Parliamentary Bills of Attainder were not only legal in England at the time, they were a staple of English law. People were imprisoned and beheaded by Bill of Attainder passed by Parliament. Powerful and important people. Our Constitution outlaws them.

    nk (1d9030)

  297. You seem sure about this. Just how were you able to come to this particular conclusion?

    (1) Occam’s Razor. Trump invited his people to show up, with the tease that it would be “wild”.
    (2) Every bit of footage of the protest/riot I’ve seen since 1/6, and I’ve seen a fair amount.
    (3) The dozens, maybe hundreds, of eyewitness accounts I’ve read in news reports.
    (4) Social media accounts and video from the actual participants (and not just from the ProPublica link above), along with items like the two WSJ links I included just above.
    (5) The arrests. Except for John Sullivan and maybe a few other tokens, the ones getting busted are the MAGAs.
    I didn’t mean to come down too harsh with the “FakeNews” line, felipe, but I’ve seen a lot denial, downtalking and blame-shifting about what happened at other conservative sites, and I didn’t expect to see it here. Everything I’ve seen points to pro-Trump partisans as culpable of this terrorist attack. They own it.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  298. Thank you for your response! Allow me to comment:

    (1) yes Occam’s razor. Why not try something less of a hammer, like Murphy’s law?
    (2) And seeing is believing, isn’t it?
    (3) Yes, “accounts” of eyewitnesses as reported in the “trustworthy” news.
    (4) This can be quite good when viewed in a dispassionate eye. Are you dispassionate?
    (5) Arrests, not convictions? Why not just accept accusations? Better still, suspicions.

    I didn’t the “fake news” bit was harsh at all. I agree with you about the sad displays of denial, downtalking, and blame-shifting.

    Everything I’ve seen points to pro-Trump partisans as culpable of this terrorist attack. They own it.

    I understand. I can honestly state that the majority of what I have been shown points to Trump’s supporters as the cuplable party. I think we differ in our acceptance of the opposing narratives. At this early juncture, I accept neither. Patience is my ally.

    felipe (630e0b)

  299. What was Alexei Navalny thinking when he took an airplane trip to Moscow?

    Proving he is not a coward and a symbol of freedom.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  300. Gahh! I didn’t [think] the “fake news” bit was harsh at all.

    Of course you knew what I meant, Paul, I just had to type this comment as a self-disciplinary action.

    felipe (630e0b)

  301. FBI vetting Guard troops in DC amid fears of insider attack
    U.S. defense officials say they are worried about an insider attack or other threat from service members involved in securing President-elect Joe Biden’s inauguration, prompting the FBI to vet all of the 25,000 National Guard troops coming into Washington for the event.
    …….
    Multiple officials said the process began as the first Guard troops began deploying to D.C. more than a week ago. And they said it is slated to be complete by Wednesday. Several officials discussed military planning on condition of anonymity.
    …….
    In a situation like this one, FBI vetting would involve running peoples’ names through databases and watchlists maintained by the bureau to see if anything alarming comes up. That could include involvement in prior investigations or terrorism-related concerns, said David Gomez, a former FBI national security supervisor in Seattle.
    ……..
    …….. According to (Army Secretary Ryan) McCarthy, service members from across the military were at that rally, but it’s not clear how many were there or who may have participated in the breach at the Capitol. So far only a couple of current active-duty or National Guard members have been arrested in connection with the Capitol assault, which left five people dead. …….
    …….
    The major security concern is an attack by armed groups of individuals, as well as planted explosives and other devices. McCarthy said intelligence reports suggest that groups are organizing armed rallies leading up to Inauguration Day, and possibly after that.

    The bulk of the Guard members will be armed. And McCarthy said units are going through repeated drills to practice when and how to use force and how to work quickly with law enforcement partners. Law enforcement officers would make any arrests.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  302. It was purely a false false flag operation. Trump’s avowed supporters could not possibly have cared less what Congress was going to do on January 6 and they all stayed home playing Yahtzee online (there’s an app).

    Deep State seized the opportunity to fill in the vacuum. It flew in 40,000 mercenaries from South Africa, equipped them with Confederate flags and other MAGA gear, and transported them to the Capital where first they listened enthusiastically to Trump’s rallying speech, cheered wildly, and then headed over to besiege the Capitol. Diabolical does not even begin to describe it.

    A relative few innocent bystanders, just there as normal tourists like you see in DC every day, were dragged in to the crowd, photoshopped online, and those are the poor Americans we see hunted and arrested. The mercenaries have all been transported by submarine to Deep State’s secret base in Belize.

    nk (1d9030)

  303. By the way, Paul, I appreciate your comments and I respect your principled positions, notwithstanding the differences of our opinions.

    felipe (630e0b)

  304. nk (1d9030) — 1/17/2021 @ 7:28 pm

    HA! As Judy Tenuta likes to say “It could happen!”

    felipe (630e0b)

  305. Dave (1bb933) — 1/17/2021 @ 10:56 am

    What’s wrong, frosty? If you want a violent white supremacist personality cult to overturn democratic elections, why not own what you’re supporting?

    At least you’ve stopped using fascist incorrectly. That’s a step in the right direction. Why would I own something I’ve already said I didn’t agree with?

    frosty (a2f486)

  306. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/17/2021 @ 11:30 am

    Then we feel the same about each other. I don’t like what I’m seeing from either side. You seem to think one side is the anti-authoritarian good guys fighting the authoritarian bad guys. That mentality, that anything is excused in the fight against Trump and his people, is part of what’s destroying what I considered America.

    I consider your comment about goose stepping American soldiers to be an insult to those who fought real goose stepping troops.

    You’ll hurt yourself clutching those pearls that hard. I’m willing to apologize to any of that that are. But, while I can’t speak for them, I’d suspect a lot of them would be far more insulted by what we’ve done to the country.

    frosty (a2f486)

  307. Hey frosty, you can start posting on Parler again, they’ve found a hosting partner…the same one that hosts all of the other Nazi’s and Klan types. Although you’ll have to register again, but hopefully they’ll have passwords and things this time.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  308. urbanleftbehind (35dcf5) — 1/17/2021 @ 2:21 pm

    How did I miss your comment? I, too would like to have seen clear pushback from the Tru-belivers against the APs, too, ULB. Mr. Yon says he saw video of just that, but I want to see it / hear it for myself.

    felipe (630e0b)

  309. felipe (630e0b) — 1/17/2021 @ 10:36 am

    But truly, the question is not “is so-and-so a christian?” It is, “Am I a christian, and what must I do?”

    I’ll start by loving my enemies. I may never get very far past that.

    Sadly, it seems this is not widely known wisdom. For some the Gospel is just another tool to the answer the question “how can I control other people”.

    Your comment made my day better.

    frosty (a2f486)

  310. You won’t hold it against me if I don’t love your enemies, will you, felipe? We have had this discussion before. We have an obligation to forgive those who trespass against us, but what authority do we have to forgive those who trespass against others? Trump did not merely trespass against you and me, he trespassed against America and all her people.

    nk (1d9030)

  311. And thanks for the link to Judy Tenuta. That was indeed a blast from the past.

    nk (1d9030)

  312. Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/17/2021 @ 2:55 pm

    The extremism experts agree on several glaring points on how we got here and where we may be going. America is in the midst of a mass radicalization of sorts. The fire starter was not Trump, they say; he simply threw gas on the flames.

    No one here needed extremism experts. I’ve been saying this for a while now. I’m expecting the usual suspects to start accusing these experts of being closet Trump supporters.

    frosty (a2f486)

  313. When you’ve lost Fox:

    New video shows MAGA mob rifling through paperwork in Senate chamber as they hunt down Nancy Pelosi
    Video shot by veteran war correspondent who followed mob as they forced their way into Capitol

    Mogelson, who served as a medic with New York Army National Guard for three years, shot the video from the moment the rioters first made their way into the Capitol, where they confronted police officers, telling them: “You’re outnumbered. There’s a f—ing million of us out there! And we are listening to Trump—your boss!”

    nk (1d9030)

  314. Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/17/2021 @ 8:09 pm

    Thanks for the update.

    Did you ever find the link for that Parler hack that got all of the personal info? You said they even got peoples cookies?

    frosty (a2f486)

  315. nk (1d9030) — 1/17/2021 @ 8:30 pm

    but what authority do we have to forgive those who trespass against others?

    If we don’t have authority to forgive a thing by what authority do we claim vengeance. If you can hold on to something you can let it go.

    frosty (a2f486)

  316. If we don’t have authority to forgive a thing by what authority do we claim vengeance.

    The protection of the life, liberty, and property of our neighbors and posterity; the maintenance of social order; and the preservation of the state.

    nk (1d9030)

  317. nk (1d9030) — 1/17/2021 @ 9:07 pm

    Then you’re confusing terms. That has nothing to do with forgiveness.

    frosty (fc141b)

  318. Nixon did not pardon anyone. His minions all went to jail, and Nixon was deposed in the matter of Watergate for use in those trials.

    Trump will pardon everyone. An exersize for the reader is what do prosecutors do when there is only one defendant to try?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  319. By the way, Paul, I appreciate your comments and I respect your principled positions, notwithstanding the differences of our opinions.

    The same, felipe. I’ve learned my lessons about jumping the gun and I agree that it’s good to be skeptical but, in this case, I’ve seen more than enough. To me, it’s beyond doubt that MAGA terrorists stormed the Capitol Building, and this was compounded and inspired and incited by a president who lied for two months straight about “rigging” and a “fraudulent election”.
    This is all on Trump. If he didn’t invite his throngs to show up on 1/6, there would be no attempted coup and power would have transferred peacefully.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  320. Although nk’s theory is intriguing, but I heard there was a white genocide or something in South Africa. Tucker Carlson told me.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  321. You don’t have to be a fuzz-brain to be a Trump supporter, but it helps.

    nk (1d9030)

  322. 321. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/18/2021 @ 12:36 am

    To me, it’s beyond doubt that MAGA terrorists stormed the Capitol Building,

    People who publicly identfied themselves as MAGA, or pro-Trump.

    One forgot to bring along a MAGA hat, and stole one by pointing something at a genuine MAGA protester, according to what someone told me she heard someone phone in to a radio program.

    And there were agent Provocateurs, who tried to involve less committed Trumpists in the assault.

    The New York Times featured one, both at the beginning and the end of a front page story yesterday. (and also in other places in the article)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/16/us/capitol-riot-funding.html

    Keith Lee, an Air Force veteran and former police detective, spent the morning of Jan. 6 casing the entrances to the Capitol.

    In online videos, the 41-year-old Texan pointed out the flimsiness of the fencing. He cheered the arrival, long before President Trump’s rally at the other end of the mall, of far-right militiamen encircling the building. Then, armed with a bullhorn, Mr. Lee called out for the mob to rush in, until his voice echoed from the dome of the Rotunda…

    …Much is still unknown about the planning and financing of the storming of the Capitol, aiming to challenge Mr. Trump’s electoral defeat. What is clear is that it was driven, in part, by a largely ad hoc network of low-budget agitators, including far-right militants, Christian conservatives and ardent adherents of the QAnon conspiracy theory. Mr. Lee is all three….

    …On the evening of Jan. 5, Mr. Lee broadcast a video podcast from a crowd of chanting Trump supporters in the Houston airport, waiting to board a flight to Washington. “We are there for a show of force,” he promised, suggesting he anticipated street fights even before dawn. “Gonna see if we can do a little playing in the night.” …

    …By 10:45 a.m. the next day, more than an hour before Mr. Trump spoke, Mr. Lee was back online broadcasting footage of himself at the Capitol.

    “If you died today and you went to heaven, can you look George Washington in the face and say that you’ve fought for this country?” he asked.

    By noon, he was reporting that “backup” was already arriving, bypassing the Trump speech and rally. The Proud Boys and Oath Keepers were among the groups that went directly to the Capitol.

    “Guys, we got the Three Percent here! The Three Percent here that loves this country and wants to fight!” Mr. Lee reported a little later, referring to another militant group. “We need to surround this place.”

    Backed by surging crowds, Mr. Lee had made his way into the Rotunda and by 3 p.m. — after a fellow assailant had been shot, police officers had been injured and local authorities were pleading for help — he was back outside using his megaphone to urge others into the building. “If we do it together,” he insisted, “there’s no violence!”

    When he knew that lawmakers had evacuated, he declared victory: “We have done our job,” he shouted.

    Boldface mine.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  323. The only agent provocateur was Trump.

    nk (1d9030)

  324. and this was compounded and inspired and incited by a president who lied for two months straight about “rigging” and a “fraudulent election”.

    I don’t think he planned the assault, but he was lying, and he was seriously trying to get things done that did not comport with the United Sates constitution. He can also be blamed for not being put off by some of the people hewas associating with.

    This is all on Trump. If he didn’t invite his throngs to show up on 1/6, there would be no attempted coup and power would have transferred peacefully.

    Well, yes, the protest and the demands were unjustified, but the end result can’t quite be pinned on him. Trump I feel, was used.

    It was not an attempted coup because there was no realistic way of pulling that off.

    But I feel there must have been something more to it than a fundraising scam.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  325. nk (1d9030) — 1/18/2021 @ 8:11 am

    The only agent provocateur was Trump.

    Did Trump say to break into the Capitol Building?

    The people who did it are pinning it all on political office holders.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/17/us/right-wing-protesters-capitol-dc.html

    In a 12-minute video posted Sunday by The New Yorker magazine men are seen rifling through the desks of senators in the Senate chamber and flipping through their files. “I think Cruz would want us to do this,” one man says, referring to Senator Ted Cruz, the Texas Republican. The video captures conversations between the rioters and police officers inside the Capitol. “You are outnumbered,” one of the men tells officers, adding that the rioters are there at the behest of President Trump, “your boss.”

    We should believe them?

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  326. I’ll tell you who might be behind this: Vladimir Putin.

    Not, of course, Antifa, because Antifa doesn’t even exist.

    Not China, they can’t do it.

    Pro Trump groups, but there are too many of them.

    Qanon, and many of these other groups, could have been created (or funded) by Russian intelligence.

    I’d like to know more.

    Russia and China are certainly sing this as an argument for dictatorship, however little it works.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/15/opinion/impeachment-china-russia.html

    Hua Chunying, the spokeswoman of China’s Foreign Ministry, for one, has called out some U.S. officials and politicians for describing protesters in Hong Kong as “democracy heroes” but saying that the Trump supporters who stormed the U.S. Capitol last week were “thugs” and “extremists.”

    Russia’s first deputy ambassador to the United Nations, Dmitry Polyanskiy, denounced on Twitter the fact that protesters who entered the Capitol “Maidan-style” — referring to the 2014 uprisings in Ukraine, which garnered much support in the West — were being described as “criminals.”

    The spokeswoman for Russia’s Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova, has argued that the event “has once again brought our attention to the archaic electoral system of the United States.”

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  327. https://www.axios.com/trump-off-the-rails-descent-into-madness-fd169833-9052-473d-87f5-7a1a4ffffb8f.html

    Trump’s new gang of advisers shared some common traits. They were sycophants who craved an audience with the president. They were hardcore conspiracy theorists. The other striking commonality within this crew was that all of them had, at one point in their lives, done impressive, professional, mainstream work.

    Giuliani had, previously, become an (unwitting II thikk) tool of Russian intelligence.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/politics/sanctions-giuliani-trump-ukraine-election-disinformation.html

    The Treasury Department accused seven Ukrainians of working with a Russian agent “to spread misleading and unsubstantiated allegations” about President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr.

    This is Trump’s Department of the Treasury so you know the evidence has to be strong.

    “Russian disinformation campaigns targeting American citizens are a threat to our democracy,” Steven T. Mnuchin, the Treasury secretary, said in the statement. “The United States will continue to aggressively defend the integrity of our election systems and processes.”

    ….Mr. Telizhenko assisted Mr. Giuliani during the 2020 campaign, arranging meetings with Ukrainians claiming to have damaging information about the Bidens. Mr. Telizhenko helped plan a trip for Mr. Giuliani to Kyiv, the Ukrainian capital, in December 2019, during which Mr. Giuliani met with Mr. Derkach and recorded interviews with him and others that aired on Mr. Giuliani’s podcast and a special on the pro-Trump cable channel One America News Network.

    The Treasury Department seemed to allude to this trip in explaining its sanctions of Mr. Telizhenko, noting in its statement that he “orchestrated meetings between Derkach and U.S. persons to help propagate false claims concerning corruption in Ukraine.” The statement did not explicitly name Mr. Giuliani or the Bidens, but it asserted that the sanctioned Ukrainians “leveraged U.S. media, U.S.-based social media platforms and influential U.S. persons” in their efforts to spread damaging allegations.

    Now Mike Flynn was suspected by President Obama of having become a Russian spy, and as a result, forced to retire as head of the Defense Intelligence Agency.

    According to Axios, Sidney Powell wanted top secret security clearance.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  328. Hey Sammy, remember my comment about loyalty oaths? I think you said they’ve already taken an oath that should be sufficient.

    Sounds like someone doesn’t agree.

    frosty (f27e97)

  329. frosty @330 (I think that number will stick)

    Hey Sammy, remember my comment about loyalty oaths?

    Where was that?

    I think you said they’ve already taken an oath that should be sufficient.

    Yes, I did.

    https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript

    article 6, Clause 3:

    The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  330. I’ll tell you who might be behind this: Vladimir Putin.

    Definitely. China was doing something similar out of Houston, I believe.

    We need to be more upfront about this tactic, when we do it too, what the lines are, etc. And we need to respond to Russia in a way that shows them to be the paper tiger they truly are. Unless they just want to all die in a nuclear hellfire, they are a puny economic power and an even punier intellectual one, biting at America’s ankles for a century, aligning with Hitler if it is convenient to them. There is no reason to tip toe around the Russians. We should figure out where they train their hackers and blow it up as a legitimate response to their act of war. Putin would be tamed very quickly.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  331. @287. Yeah I know I know, only problem is I really don’t understand what that means.

    Neither do the insulated McConnell or McCarthy- nor the Jackson Holed Cheney as well- hence they’re now on the bottom of the deck. But the 74-plus million do. Look beyond Trump; he’s just the mst recent vessel. Pelosi and Schumer don’t really ‘get it’ either. If you embrace the ‘establishment’ -GOP or otherwise– you won’t ‘get it’… which is why – to the non-parsing-millions, “$2000 means $2000– not $1400″; which is why you help ‘America [and Americans] First’ – not the Bin Laden hiding Pakistan nor the dubious Israelis and Saudis or dues-ducking NATO members etc., etc., just to do the bidding for multi-nationals at the expense of taxpayers resources. When the quality of life is better in Dusseldorf than Detroit, on your dime, time for a change.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  332. Neither do the insulated McConnell or McCarthy- nor the Jackson Holed Cheney as well- hence they’re now on the bottom of the deck.

    We’ll see. You easily could be right that the Republicans who actually see a future for the party intellectually, about some kind of platform instead of stupid populist screeching, are making a political mistake. Obviously if they are right you will just say they got to the right place cynically. But you claiming they’ve screwed themselves politically for doing the right thing is completely opposite from your claim they are just saying whatever they think we want to hear.

    Interesting that there’s no way for a conservative to win in your mind.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  333. you help ‘America [and Americans] First’

    The best way to help them would be to go back in time and stop Trump’s wild deficit spending, and get the pandemic under control in February at the latest. Money is nice, but dignity and money is better. Jobs, productivity, innovation. That’s how you survive in a competitive world where Putin and Xi are greedy.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  334. Trump: I didn’t incite an insurrection!
    Trump followers: You told us to do it!

    A man from Kentucky told the FBI that he and his cousin began marching toward the U.S. Capitol building last week because “President Trump said to do so.” Chanting “Stop the steal,” the two men tramped through the building and snapped a photo of themselves with their middle fingers raised, according to court documents.

    A video clip of another group of rioters mobbing the steps of the Capitol caught one man screaming at a police officer: “We were invited here! We were invited by the president of the United States!”

    A retired firefighter from Pennsylvania who has been charged with throwing a fire extinguisher at police officers felt he was “instructed” to go to the Capitol by the president, a tipster told the FBI, according to court documents.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  335. Sammy, Trump can be both a tool and the whisperer of a horde of rabid weasels. In fact, it is the rabid weasel horde whisperer ability that makes him a useful tool.

    nk (1d9030)

  336. “Interesting that there’s no way for a conservative to win in your mind.”

    Sure looks like a whole lot of confirmation bias. Let’s see who the GOP nominates in 2024. Will it be someone like Nikki Haley or some wild-eyed populist? Republicans as a species tend to be risk-averse…the Trump experiment yielded a multi-year investigation which produced multiple plausible accusations of obstruction, two impeachments, the loss of the House, Senate, and Presidency, and a party that has been slimed by white supremacists and QAnon conspiracy whackos. It’s unlikely to think that the GOP is inexorably committed to more of that path

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  337. @334. ‘We’ll see.’

    We have been “shown” – seeing it is another matter; And ‘the powers that be’ only “see” the offices others pay for were rattled and a podium swiped. They remain obtuse, isolated and working on a schedule only fit for royalty.

    @335. As my late banker grandfather always said: ‘pay yourself first.’ When the USS Middle Class is torpedoed, you don’t say ‘gee, let’s install sonar nex time’ you get all hands to stop the ship from sinking and save lives. Trickle down became trickled on, Dustin. It failed.

    _____

    @336. Did they drink the bleach, too?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  338. @334. Interesting that there’s no way for a conservative to win in your mind.

    ‘Barry, Barry, make your bid;
    I love John Birch but oh-you-kid!’ – Barry’s Boys – The Chad Mitchell Trio

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j-8Q79U1qk

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  339. Will it be someone like Nikki Haley or some wild-eyed populist?

    A blend of only the finest South Carolina tobacco.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  340. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/18/2021 @ 9:10 am

    The best way to help them would be to go back in time and stop Trump’s wild deficit spending,

    That actually seems OK, as long as interest rates stay at near (or even below) 0.00% and the U.S. Dollar remains the world’s reserve currency.

    There could be a reckoning in 100 or 150 years or maybe even 200..

    and get the pandemic under control in February at the latest.

    Firthat he’d have to overrule the scientists.

    They were saying it could be kept from spreading, like SARS.

    By the way, they already ad experimental, and not so experimental treatments, and they already had come up with vaccines. All that was needed was to manufacture it, and avoiding the necessity of prior approval. I don’t see what the long approval process did. It did not raise confidence in the vaccine, (if anything, it lowered it) and they didn’t truly learn very much and they certainly didn’t change anything about the vaccines, even the recommended dosage and timing.

    Now Dr. Faaui talks as if the nine month long approval process didn’t exist. He says one of the mutant strains might require a change to the vaccine.

    However, if you have that, you have to go through maybe the 9-month long testing and approval process all over again!

    There are so may wrong things said about the virus. Convalescent fluid is treated as if it is only useful for a late stage of the disease and synthetic neutralizing monoclonal antibodies as if it was only useful very early. Somehow they got approved that way. But both should have similar effects.

    The truth about both is that the earlier they (or a standard dose and they’re too idiotic or regulated to depart from a standard dose) is administered the better, but also the earlier it is administered the more likely it is not to have been necessary to save a life or prevent suffering or long term effects.

    The Eli Lilly antibody (there;s only one for Eli Lilly – Regeneron has two) is most likely to not work or work less well if the virus mutates. Convalescent plasma can target any part of the virus. The vaccines based on mRNA that only build immunity to the spike portion might potentially later not work. A mild natural infection probably builds the best immunity, but several people who have mild infections can give a serious case to a fifth person. It may require several people with mild infections or one person with serious one to get the disease rolling.

    hey’re almost completely ignoring the factor of the amount of virus someone inhales.

    Money is nice, but dignity and money is better. Jobs, productivity, innovation. That’s how you survive in a competitive world where Putin and Xi are greedy.

    You’ve got to break down the barriers to hiring.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  341. 332. nk (1d9030) — 1/18/2021 @ 9:36 am

    Sammy, Trump can be both a tool and the whisperer of a horde of rabid weasels. In fact, it is the rabid weasel horde whisperer ability that makes him a useful tool.

    He set the table, but he may not have been interested in quite the meal that he got.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  342. frosty (a2f486) — 1/17/2021 @ 8:06 pm

    Then we feel the same about each other. I don’t like what I’m seeing from either side. You seem to think one side is the anti-authoritarian good guys fighting the authoritarian bad guys. That mentality, that anything is excused in the fight against Trump and his people, is part of what’s destroying what I considered America.
    I see one side threatening American democracy and another defending it.

    I consider your comment about goose stepping American soldiers to be an insult to those who fought real goose stepping troops.

    You’ll hurt yourself clutching those pearls that hard. I’m willing to apologize to any of that that are. But, while I can’t speak for them, I’d suspect a lot of them would be far more insulted by what we’ve done to the country.
    Obviously your family never lost someone in WW II or any other conflict.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  343. A place to fund hope’: How Proud Boys and other fringe groups found refuge on a Christian fundraising website
    …….
    A review by The Washington Post shows that the self-described Christian website (GiveSendGo.com) has become a refuge of sorts for outcasts and extremists, including fringe groups such as the Proud Boys as well as conspiracy theorists who seek to undercut the results of the presidential election by promoting debunked claims of fraud. Some of the users claim to have been booted from other crowdfunding websites for violating terms-of-service agreements.

    Postings on GiveSendGo show that at least $247,000 has been raised for 24 people — including at least eight members of the Proud Boys — who claimed online that the money was intended for travel, medical or legal expenses connected to “Stop the Steal” events, including the Jan. 6 rally.

    ………Another featured a screenshot of President Trump’s tweet promoting the Jan. 6 event above a man’s plea for help after he claimed that a different crowdfunding site, GoFundMe, had removed his page. “I plan to meet you all there and fight alongside you,” he wrote on GiveSendGo, raising $958.
    …….
    The Post’s review also found that more than $321,000 has been raised through GiveSendGo for funds that promote conspiracy theories about the presidential election.
    ……..
    Several days after the rally, PayPal announced that it would no longer process transactions for the site.

    “The account in question was closed due to a violation of our Acceptable Use Policy,” a PayPal spokeswoman said in a written statement. “PayPal carefully reviews accounts to ensure our services are used in line with our well-established policy, and has a long history of taking action when we deem that individuals or organizations have violated this policy. We do not allow PayPal services to be used to promote hate, violence, or other forms of intolerance.”
    ……..
    In interviews with The Post, (Jacob Wells, the chief financial officer of GiveSendGo) said he is “definitely not comfortable” with the presence of the Proud Boys on his site but had no plans to remove their pages.

    “I’m extremely hesitant to trample or walk on that freedom at the outcry of public opinion,’’ Wells said. “If the law dictates that we can’t have things [on the website], we adhere to the law.’’

    Over the past few days, however, the site has suspended donations to several funds set up by the Proud Boys and other Stop the Steal participants. Wells said he removed the donate button on these pages after Stripe, a company whose software enables online payments from credit or debit cards, emailed with objections. ……
    ………
    Wells acknowledged that the site has at times struggled to stay true to both Christian principles and its commitment to facilitate fundraising for individuals or causes irrespective of their popularity.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  344. The Pfizer vaccine is vdry strong – and maybe too strong. People who received the second dose have higher level of antibodies than people who recovered from severe cases of cronavirus (that would mean that, so long as the virus does not mutate badly, they could give convalescent fluid – but of course they are extremely unlikely to do that – not been tested and all that)

    Meanwhile, n Norway, the Pfizer vaccine is linked to the deaths of 23 elderly people who received the Pfizer vaccine (the only vaccine given in Norway)

    Most or all had underlying conditions, and the immune response it invoked was too much for them. Frail, elderly people were probably not among the people in the clinical trial.)

    I believe you can be considered too old or frail for the flu vaccine.

    Everything about this is stupid.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  345. I don’t tweet but do read them.
    RE: Navalny and Putin: He’s already made it past the “fall out the 7th story window phase” so he may survive.
    Biden won’t hold Putin accountable, there will be bluster and thatis it. He won’t believe Putin though.
    He has promised to believe Iran, which is disconcerting because their primary lies are about nuclear weapons which I find more dangerous than Putin. I also find the Chinese to be more dangerous to our economy and geopolitically. Biden is getting paid, academics are admitting they’ve been paid, paid to turn a blind eye, to tell America’s secrets and to defend China from the truth.
    Classic case in point. The troops rallied to defend cash cow China over the “Wuhan Virus” or “China Virus”… not a peep from anyone over the South Africa variant or the UK variant.
    American descendents of slaves refuse to listen to China’s use if the Uighurs as slave labor

    steveg (43b7a5)


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