Patterico's Pontifications

1/14/2021

The Flight 93 Impeachment

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



Rich Lowry revisits Michael Anton’s famous “Flight 93″ election at POLITICO but, I think, draws the wrong conclusion.

In Anton’s defense, he never said he believed that Trump knew how to fly a plane. In the future, when hiring someone to pilot the most advanced jetliner on the planet, he might want to add that to the job description, and check a couple of references.

Lowry’s observation that Trump didn’t know how to fly is cute, but doesn’t fit the Flight 93 analogy. Neither did the people on Flight 93. Anton said the choice in 2016 was: “Charge the cockpit or you die” — but the people on Flight 93 were doomed either way.

Here’s why their actions mattered: if the terrorists kept control of the plane, the Capitol was going to be targeted as well.

It turns out in 2016, we gave control of the plane to a terrorist. And he set the controls for an attack on the Capitol. Our last clear chance to stop it was the first impeachment. Removal after the first impeachment — which Lowry opposed — was the real Flight 93 decision. But only one Republican senator said “Let’s roll” while the rest decided to leave the terrorist in control, worried that their political careers might die if they took action.

Now the Republican party is in disarray, and many of the most vocal opponents of the first impeachment — one Rafael Edward Cruz comes to mind — have seen their political careers die anyway, but in ignominy.

Now, as we wander around the ruins of the Capitol, we have another choice. Are we going to let that same terrorist take control of a plane again? Or are we going to put him on the no-fly list?

Let’s roll.

170 Responses to “The Flight 93 Impeachment”

  1. I bet Mike Pence could have landed the plan without hitting the Capitol.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. Amen.
    The person in the spotlight won’t be Cruz or Hawley, though, it’ll be McConnell, and his decision will change history. This rumor is intriguing…

    Per @MSNBC, Republican Senate staffers are telling their bosses that if they don’t vote to convict Trump, they will resign en masse because they were also the ones barricaded in offices, hiding under desks, fearing for their lives for hours on end

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  3. Impeachment and conviction in the senate are necessary, but not sufficient.

    Dave (1bb933)

  4. A while back I predicted that if McConnell lost the Senate majority he would bribe Pelosi to impeach Trump.

    nk (1d9030)

  5. WaPo: Trump Refusing To Pay Giuiliani’s Legal Fees For Some Reason

    Who can blame him? The Washington Post reports this as part of a picture of Donald Trump’s resentful isolation. It sounds more like a picture of a legal client’s wisdom and discernment. After handing over control of his legal efforts to challenge the election results to Giuliani, Trump now appears very dissatisfied with Giuliani’s legal expertise and operations.

    Though Trump has been exceptionally furious with Vice President Pence, his relationship with lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani, one of his most steadfast defenders, is also fracturing, according to people with knowledge of the dynamics between the men.

    Trump has instructed aides not to pay Giuliani’s legal fees, two officials said, and has demanded that he personally approve any reimbursements for the expenses Giuliani incurred while traveling on the president’s behalf to challenge election results in key states. They said Trump has privately expressed concern with some of Giuliani’s moves and did not appreciate a demand from Giuliani for $20,000 a day in fees for his work attempting to overturn the election.

    Of course, it didn’t help Giuliani that Trump gave him an impossible task, but even at that Giuliani bumbled his way through it. After outside attorneys refused to present Giuliani’s arguments in the Pennsylvania case, Giuliani personally litigated it himself — and couldn’t answer basic questions regarding levels of scrutiny for the court to apply. Giuliani also famously informed the court that the Trump campaign wasn’t alleging fraud, even while it screamed fraud in press conferences.

    And let’s not forget that Giuliani linked up with Sidney Powell and Lin Wood for the insanity that would become the “Kraken” lawsuits. Three weeks after the election, Chris Christie called the legal team “a national embarrassment,” and it only got worse from there.

    Just how much value did Giuliani deliver, anyway? Certainly not the $20,000 a day he reportedly demanded for his services. His conduct was so bad that the New York State Bar Association wants to expel him from their membership. Small wonder that Trump isn’t keen on paying his bills.
    ……..
    Another Trump vendor being stiffed. Whether you like or dislike the services provided, the client is obligated to pay for services rendered (however badly).

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  6. What’s interesting to me is the debate whether or not the Constitution allows impeachment/removal for someone OUT of office AND whether Senate could vote to bar the convict from seeking higher office (as some sort of Bill of Attainer).

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I find this line of reasoning strange…

    If you impeached and convict someone, that’s it…the person is kicked out of office. It doesn’t matter if their term legally ended before the conviction. Right?

    If so, then the vote to bar the person from holding future office means such vote only occurs when that person is already forced out of office. So, the Bill of Attainer argument, to me, falls flat.

    Or, am I over-analyzing this?

    whembly (c30c83)

  7. It doesn’t matter if their term legally ended before the conviction. Right?

    This is an area where I wish they had drafted the constitution better. For example, who presides over an impeachment of the VP? Read the constitution and ask yourself that question.

    As a matter of logic, if you can just resign ten seconds before you’re sentenced and defeat the bar on future office, that makes no sense. But that’s not really a sign of framer intent. That’s just sloppy work. Impeachment is one of those crude emergency kits, and I guess the framers who thought things through weren’t as diligent here.

    You’re not over analyzing. It could go either way, and my bias against Trump has me seeing it one way, which of course could lead to terrible outcomes in the distant future. Emotion can really make bad law.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  8. I bet Mike Pence could have landed the plan without hitting the Capitol.

    It’s a safe bet he wouldn’t have complained nonstop that the election was stolen. Trumpers might say that’s because he’s not such a bold, dauntless, manly man as Trump.
    The claims in 2019 that the impeachment was about “overturning an election” were not made in good faith. I think they were mainly rooted in the psychological need to say “We were never wrong to promote Trump in the first place, or to come around to defending him at all costs.”

    Radegunda (20775b)

  9. Trump is indeed going to pass from the scene. Good riddance. Although I kind of agree with the incompetence angle over the “terrorist” angle. A terrorist in charge would have been far worse than Donald Trump. Or maybe he was just a very incompetent terrorist.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. Analogies by irrelevants Lowry/Anton to any tragic 9/11 events are mere click-bait attention grabbers- and in desperately poor taste. They should know better.
    _______

    Once upon a time, dimes, quarters and half-dollars -coin of the realm- were made of silver. Then Congress got involved and cheapened them into clad-coinage.

    Such is the fate of the value of ‘impeachment.’

    Thanks, Nancy.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  11. We need to keep perspective. The guy replacing him has his own pathologies. Biden today unveiled a $2 trillion “emergency relief plan.” It took Trump a couple years to get to that level of waste. To paraphrase Senator Dirksen:

    “A trillion here, a trillion there, and pretty soon you’re talking real money,”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  12. @11. Investing in yourself has potential and merit; shoveling it overseas, not so much. When the quality of life is better in Dusseldorf than Detroit, time for change. History rhymes; the American Empire is well on the way to the fate of the British Empire.

    Xi grins… as Putin smiles.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  13. This is an area where I wish they had drafted the constitution better

    It is 4 pages long (4600 words), is readable and understandable by most people, and has stood for 230 years, despite better men the Donald Trump trying to bend it to their will. Sure, there are some holes, and the Courts have not exactly helped by writing in the margins.

    But compare it to the Treaty on European Union, for example, a hodge-podge of interlocking and unelected boards and commissions that is nearly impossible to understand and runs to 256 pages and 60,000 words.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  14. In fact, the biggest problem with the US Constitution is that it IS so easily understood. This wrecks havoc with those that would lie about what it says or pervert its meaning. Possibly not enough havoc, though.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  15. Impeachment and conviction in the senate are necessary, but not sufficient.

    My only quibble here is that conviction in the senate is not as necessary as conviction elsewhere.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  16. What’s interesting to me is the debate whether or not the Constitution allows impeachment/removal for someone OUT of office AND whether Senate could vote to bar the convict from seeking higher office (as some sort of Bill of Attainer).

    I can’t speak to Bills of Attainder, but Vladeck has a good case for the impeachment and trial of ex-presidents.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  17. No, Joe Biden Should Not Pardon Donald Trump-Jonathan Turley
    ……
    ……Impeachments go to the status of presidents as the officeholders. Indictments go to their status as individuals. Indeed, I have long believed that presidents can be indicted while in office, including both President Bill Clinton and President Donald Trump. Comey stated “I obviously think he belongs in jail but I don’t think pursuing that is in the best interest of the entire nation.”

    I fail to see the logic of the Ford position. To use Comey’s words, if “he belongs in jail,” he should go to jail. The notion that our country cannot handle the criminal prosecution of a former president borders on slander. If a president is a criminal, he belongs in jail. In Nixon’s case, he rejected the need for a pardon. Yet, Ford prevents a trial on Nixon’s culpability in the crimes of Watergate — crimes which sent various individuals to jail. That was not a victory for the rule of law or the country.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  18. This is an area where I wish they had drafted the constitution better

    It is 4 pages long (4600 words), is readable and understandable by most people, and has stood for 230 years, despite better men the Donald Trump trying to bend it to their will. Sure, there are some holes, and the Courts have not exactly helped by writing in the margins.

    But compare it to the Treaty on European Union, for example, a hodge-podge of interlocking and unelected boards and commissions that is nearly impossible to understand and runs to 256 pages and 60,000 words.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:03 am

    Good points, sure.

    But impeachment is sloppy. It’s rarely used. Half the time it’s been used at this level has been for Trump. We’re crossing a point in voter quality control.

    But if your real point is that trying to make a better constitution would be a total disaster, yes, that is definitely right. We have no hope of getting something anywhere near as good.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  19. Republican Senate staffers are telling their bosses that if they don’t vote to convict Trump

    Not sure if this is true, or if it matters, except as part of a gestalt. The reason the GOP was going to convict Nixon (besides the extraneous fact of him being guilty) was that the Public demanded it. That is the rule here, too. With Clinton or Trump I, the charges changed few minds. Here, the public is aghast at what happened on the 6th.

    Trump’s approval rating (RCP average) continues to drop, and his disapproval rating continues to climb. No senator is going to go to the wall for a loser.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  20. No senator is going to go to the wall for a loser.

    I’ll take that bet. Tom Cotton has announced he will not vote for impeachment, and neither will Lindsey Graham.

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  21. Republicans Oppose Impeachment Because It Makes Them Look Pro-Riot
    …….
    Instead, they’re refusing, on the grounds that being asked to hold the riot-inciter accountable is a dastardly plan to make them look like they support him. Instead, they’re going to fight back against the scheme to lump them in with the rioters by staking out a pro-riot (or, more precisely, anti-anti-riot) stance.

    Last summer, Republicans kept demanding Joe Biden denounce riots that broke out alongside anti-police brutality protests. Joe Biden could have refused on the grounds that the demands were just a ploy to lump him in with the rioters. Instead, he denounced the riots. Because Biden actually opposes rioting.

    Refusing to hold your own side accountable for its abuses — on the grounds that your opponents are trying to exploit the shame of those abuses — is a rationale for supporting every terrible thing your side does. Which is exactly the Republican strategy under Trump.
    >>>>>>>>>>

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  22. But impeachment is sloppy. It’s rarely used.

    Perhaps this is an indication of the quality of leaders we usually get, or the limits the Constitution places on the excesses. Remember, it was crafted by a roomful of powerful men who were under no illusions about the nature of power or those that seek it. We have had mediocrities more often than I’d like, easily outnumbering the great ones. And only a handful of true assh0les.

    The righteous impeachment of Andrew Johnson failed because the opposition party (which had over 3/4ths of the Senate) was split by personalities, and by the fact that the actual charge was not the actual reason, and the actual reason (freedmen’s rights) did not appeal to some Republicans.

    Andrew Jackson committed several impeachable crimes, notably ignoring the Supreme Court in the Cherokee case, but his other reforms (e.g. removing property requirements for voting) were very popular, and there was not exactly a groundswell of support for non-whites at the time.

    Wilson should have been removed from office after his stroke, and the 25th Amendment would have done that, had it been in effect. But they could not see impeachment as being appropriate.

    Nixon wasn’t a monster, but a man whose flaws destroyed him. Shakespeare would have loved him as a subject. He resigned in an act of personal sacrifice, not wanting to drag the country through a foreordained process. As I said, he was not a monster, just a flawed man.

    Clinton was a crook, in the sense that he committed numerous crimes (obstruction, perjury) with impunity, but he was also a fairly good president. People liked him, and since impeachment is not about criminality, but about political offenses, he survived.

    Trump survived the first one because his actions did not make his supporters waver. He won’t survive this one.

    There is some circular logic going on here. Presidents violate felony statutes. Sometimes they are impeached for it. They survive, and people say “Oh, impeachment doesn’t work!” All along the assumption is that impeachment is to punish violations of statutes, when it is nothing of the kind. It is to REMOVE someone from office for politically obnoxious behavior, which need not even BE criminal.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  23. Impeachment for judges IS about statutes, due to the failed Jefferson-era experiment with impeaching for political views, and an agreement of “never again” at the time. And it seems to work well for that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  24. No senator is going to go to the wall for a loser.

    Some will go to the wall to retain the favor of fanatics who are convinced that the loser was cheated and that the loser was the only thing standing between them and tyranny.

    There’s also this:

    “Our expectation is that somebody may try to kill us.” — Rep. Peter Meijer (R-MI), who voted to impeach Trump, says he and other lawmakers believe their lives are in danger following yesterday’s impeachment.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  25. Nikki’s my gal for 2024 [tried to vote early, but you know how that goes in America ;-)]; her comments yesterday about not going back to whatwas but embracing wt is and move forward are spot on. You go, girl!

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  26. ^wt = what

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  27. Tom Cotton has announced he will not vote for impeachment

    I expect that Senator Cotton knows his state well enough that it isn’t “going to the wall.” Arkansas chose Trump over Biden with a 28% margin. The Democratic Party is so weak there that they did not have a Senate candidate in 2020.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  28. Trump Struggles to Find Lawyers as Impeachment Trial Nears
    ……..
    Allies of the outgoing president have been canvassing Washington’s legal landscape looking for representation but so far are coming up short. Lawyers who defended him in the previous impeachment trial, including Jay Sekulow and White House Counsel Pat Cipollone, have said no this time, according to people familiar with the matter.

    Other lawyers who have defended Trump at times, including former Florida attorney general Pam Bondi, Eric Herschmann, Pat Philbin and Marc Kasowitz aren’t interested in joining a team this time, the people said. Some of the lawyers who don’t want a role have privately said what Trump did was indefensible.
    …….
    There is talk among Republicans in Congress that (Representative Jim) Jordan (R-Insurrectionist) and Representative Elise Stefanik (R-Insurrectionist) may be among those defending Trump at a Senate impeachment trial, according to a person familiar with the matter. Others have suggested that John Eastman, a lawyer who spoke at the Jan. 6 rally near the White House, may be tapped. Eastman declined to comment.

    “I think it’s reflective of where Trump’s own status is these days in which he has relatively little to offer and people don’t want to be associated with him generally,” (Keith Whittington, a politics professor at Princeton University) said. “The fact is he’s not going to get the A team.”
    …….
    Trump has also made it harder for himself by suggesting Rudy Giuliani should be involved, but the controversial former New York mayor is unlikely to be on the president’s defense team, an administration official said. Giuliani is seen by lawyers as a toxic force and his conduct at the rally preceding the Capitol raid could be examined during an impeachment trial.
    …….
    Being the first of its kind, the impeachment case against Trump in other circumstances would be the sort of case constitutional law experts would be fighting each other to take up.

    For one, Trump could challenge the fact that the House didn’t hold a hearing where the language and implications of the article of impeachment was deliberated before lawmakers lodged their votes. Then there’s the meaty question of whether the Senate has the authority to conduct the trial of a former president. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts, who normally would preside over an impeachment trial, may be called upon to render that decision.

    “This would be considered a strong defense case,” (law professor Jonathan) Turley said. He said the issue of him joining a Trump team “has been raised” though he declined to talk about it further saying “my role has been as a noncombatant and that’s how I’d prefer it to stay.”
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    I hear Lin Wood and Sydney Powell are free……

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  29. Nixon wasn’t a monster, but a man whose flaws destroyed him.

    Except he was.

    Listen. To. The. Tapes.

    https://www.history.com/news/nixon-secret-tapes-quotes-scandal-watergate

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  30. Some will go to the wall to retain the favor of fanatics

    Only if their state (or their state party) is chock-a-block with fanatics. Again, this is about politics and political support. If Trump retains that support in February, he might survive. But his approval rating has been dropping daily since the 6th (after being flat for the month prior).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  31. Well, DCSCA, we agree to disagree about Nixon.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  32. @28: Trump will do badly if he gets to control his defense, as he will put all his marbles on “I wuz robbed.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  33. @27.Imagine that; a young senator w/plans for a future in GOP politics opting not to pee on the 74-plus million in his party who voted for Trump.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  34. @31. You have this in your corner, back in the day, some 28% still back him when he resigned.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  35. Or, am I over-analyzing this?

    It is only the original impeachment that might be limited to someone still in office.But actually that doesn’t need to be read as a limiting clause.

    Article II Section 4 says:

    The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanor

    It doesn’t say they must currently hold office in order to be impeached or convicted.

    Article I, Section 3 Clause 7 says:

    Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

    (The disqualification is not regarded as automatic but must be voted on. separately.)

    The Wall Street Journal said today that two times an impeachment proceeded against someone who had already left office: In 1876, the Senate voted on whether to convict William Belknap, former Secretary of War in the administration of President Ulysses Grant. (he was acquitted)

    https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/War_Secretarys_Impeachment_Trial.htm

    On March 2, 1876, just minutes before the House of Representatives was scheduled to vote on articles of impeachment, Belknap raced to the White House, handed Grant his resignation, and burst into tears.

    This failed to stop the House. Later that day, members voted unanimously to send the Senate five articles of impeachment, charging Belknap with “criminally disregarding his duty as Secretary of War and basely prostituting his high office to his lust for private gain.”

    The Senate convened its trial in early April, with Belknap present, after agreeing that it retained impeachment jurisdiction over former government officials. During May, the Senate heard more than 40 witnesses, as House managers argued that Belknap should not be allowed to escape from justice simply by resigning his office.

    On August 1, 1876, the Senate rendered a majority vote against Belknap on all five articles. As each vote fell short of the necessary two-thirds, however, he won acquittal. Belknap was not prosecuted further; he died in 1890.

    The second case was that of a judge in 2009. But a trial was never held because he was convicted criminally (The Wall Street Journal says 2010 but actually that seems to fit something that took lace in 2009)

    https://www.fjc.gov/history/judges/impeachments-federal-judges

    Samuel B. Kent, U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Texas.

    Impeached by the U.S. House of Representatives, June 19, 2009, on charges of sexual assault, obstructing and impeding an official proceeding, and making false and misleading statements; Resigned from office, June 30, 2009. On July 20, 2009, the U.S. House of Representatives agreed to a resolution not to pursue further the articles of impeachment, and on July 22, 2009, the Senate, sitting as a court of impeachment, dismissed the articles.

    Wikipedia says:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_B._Kent

    On May 11, 2009, Judge Kent was sentenced to 33 months in prison for lying to investigators about sexually abusing two female employees. Dick DeGuerin, Kent’s attorney, said the judge would retire from the bench because of a disability, rather than resign, which would have enabled Kent to continue to receive his $169,300 annual salary for life.[4] That did not satisfy the leaders of the House Judiciary Committee, Representatives John Conyers Jr., (D-Mich.) and Lamar Smith (R-Tex.), who demanded that Kent resign immediately or face impeachment.[5][6]

    Judge Kent submitted his resignation on June 2, 2009, with the provision that it would not take effect for a full year. This angered the membership of the House Judiciary Committee, which voted unanimously to send four Articles of Impeachment to the full House of Representatives on June 10, 2009.[7] The articles were passed on June 19, 2009,[8] making Judge Kent the first federal judge to be impeached since Walter L. Nixon, Jr. in 1989.[9] Kent thereafter submitted a new letter of resignation to the Senate on June 25, 2009, taking effect on June 30, 2009.[10][11] On June 30, President Barack Obama accepted his resignation.[12] On July 20, the House of Representatives passed a resolution[13] asking the Senate to end former Judge Kent’s trial. Two days later, the Senate agreed to the resolution.[14]

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  36. Nikki Haley can’t decide whether she supports Trump or not
    Nikki Haley appears to be trying to erase her previous support of Donald Trump as she moves toward a run for president in 2024.

    On Wednesday, Haley announced she’s launching a political action committee to help Republicans in the 2022 midterm elections. It’s a step many presidential hopefuls take to build allies within the party ahead of a run.

    But the PAC’s website includes no mentions nor photos of Trump — even though Haley served in his administration as ambassador to the United Nations for nearly two years.
    …….
    ……. [O]nce Trump won, Haley came around, joining the Trump administration and defending Trump’s behavior.

    In 2019, when Democrats were moving to impeach Trump the first time around, she said in another “Today” show interview that Trump is “truthful” — an eye-popping remark given the sheer number of provable lies Trump made over the years.

    “I talked to him multiple times, and when I had issues, he always heard me out,” Haley said in the interview, which was meant to promote her new book — yet another step presidential hopefuls often take. “I never had any concern on whether he could handle the job ever.”
    …….
    According to the hard core Trump base, Nikki isn’t an eligible, natural born citizen. It would freak out the alt-right to have two daughters of immigrants running for President at the same time.

    Nikki, don’t lose that number!

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  37. Nixon wasn’t a monster, but a man whose flaws destroyed him.

    Except he was.

    Listen. To. The. Tapes.

    https://www.history.com/news/nixon-secret-tapes-quotes-scandal-watergate

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:57 am

    I don’t owe the 1960s or 1970s GOP a thing. I don’t owe their standards a second of my respect. I don’t have to care what Reagan or Nixon did.

    Trump’s the problem today and his behavior intentionally inspired harm to my country. Those who put effort into explaining and defending it are valuable to me, but they are not friends of my goals or my country’s success. I hope a cascade of rejection happens. Maybe it won’t. The GOP’s future depends on doing right. But the GOP doesn’t have to have a future.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  38. 30. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:57 am

    But his approval rating has been dropping daily since the 6th (after being flat for the month prior).

    This is the way things hapen. Things take awhile to permeate, even if there is nothing new. People discuss things with their family and friends and acquaintances, hear things on the radio or TV, overhear something, read something..

    Trump’s been dropping by 1 point a day since January 6.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  39. @37. I don’t owe the 1960s or 1970s GOP a thing. I don’t owe their standards a second of my respect. I don’t have to care what Reagan or Nixon did.

    Except you do:

    ‘My World… and Welcome to It.” NBC TV, 1969-70

    ‘My World…and Welcome to It is an American half-hour television sitcom based on the humor and cartoons of James Thurber. It starred William Windom as John Monroe, a Thurber-like writer and cartoonist who works for a magazine closely resembling The New Yorker called The Manhattanite.’

    https://www.rewatchclassictv.com/products/my-world-and-welcome-to-it-nbc-1969-70

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  40. Rip Murdock (80e6b4) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:56 am

    Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts, who normally would preside over an impeachment trial, may be called upon to render that decision.

    The Chief Justice presides, or only has to the trial of a president of the United States. But what if he is no longer president???

    Article I, section 3, Clause 6:

    The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

    “This would be considered a strong defense case,” (law professor Jonathan) Turley said. He said the issue of him joining a Trump team “has been raised” though he declined to talk about it further saying “my role has been as a noncombatant and that’s how I’d prefer it to stay.”
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    I hear Lin Wood and Sydney Powell are free……

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  41. Except you do:

    Nope, I totally do not. I do not need to compare anybody to them. I don’t need my ethics to be consistent with theirs (or your version of theirs). That is totally irrational.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  42. [O]nce Trump won, Haley came around, joining the Trump administration and defending Trump’s behavior.

    As little as humanly possible, and only on matters where he has a reasonable argument. For example, she said that she did not see an impeachable offense in the first impeachment, not that she did not see a statute violated. She served ably at the UN and did not bring the crazy that marked the last two years of his term. In short, she punched her ticket with Trump without losing her soul. She resigned without rancor in either direction, something unusual in the Trump regime.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  43. @41. Except you do.

    “It’s Sinatra’s world. We just live in it.” 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  44. William Belknap, former Secretary of War in the administration of President Ulysses Grant. (he was acquitted)

    It should be noted that the 1874-75 election cycle had obliterated the GOP majority in the House, where they went from 195-88 to 103-180. The proximate causes were a financial panic in 1873 (Credit Mobilier) and the exhaustion of the country with Reconstruction. The readmitted southern states were busily disenfranchising freemen and most of their delegations went Democrat.

    Belknap was an easy political target, as the poster boy for Reconstruction. The Senate, still 2/3rds GOP acquitted.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  45. According to the hard core Trump base, Nikki isn’t an eligible, natural born citizen.

    As I said above, the Constitution is simple enough for most to read an understand it. That does not mean that everyone reads it, or that everyone can understand it.

    Note aside: it is amazing the things that people ascribe to “the hard-core Trump base” as if they all thought the same thing. I guess making them all sound stupid and without reason is a helpful prejudice.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  46. @41. Except you do.

    “It’s Sinatra’s world. We just live in it.” 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/14/2021 @ 12:29 pm

    History is valuable, but not when twisted around and used to repeatedly hammer out a defense for what we all know is wrong.

    Think about how hard you have to work to find a way Trump is not the worst ever. There’s a reason for this. I, like most Americans, reject it. That’s why Joe Biden is the president.

    You can tell us that somehow all 74 million of those who voted against Biden were really voting FOR evil and dishonesty and cruelty. Some were. But it’s a slander for a lot of them. Time will tell how many, I guess.

    You can keep telling us we don’t get it, but what you get is Joe Biden is YOUR president. You made him president. Without Trump fans, Biden wasn’t even a footnote.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  47. Thank you Rip M. on explaining the nonstarter nature of a Haley campaign, at least one where the Trumper/Douchebro brigade doesnt split votes amongst their bracket. Cruz is similarly afflicted and does not have the casual “mija, this might be our best chance at a Hispanic” crossover support that a Rubio or even a Mike Garcia of CA might have.

    urbanleftbehind (8d2d44)

  48. Nikki vs Kamala…

    We all know who wins the debates.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  49. @40:

    Chief Roberts presides. Trump is being impeached as the President of the United States. There is no such thing as impeaching a private individual, so he can only be impeached for the office he holds or held. Therefore the exact words in the Constitution still apply and Roberts presides. Dustin’s point about the VP is well-taken though, and I would assume that Roberts would preside there, too.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  50. @46. You made him president.

    Not me. Didn’t vote for the known plagiarist, given a ‘press pass’ in 2020; the swamp creatured quitter driven from the race for same by facts presented by better journalists in 1988.

    But you’ll learn about him soon enough; ‘you bought him; you own him.’ 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  51. Rip is taking things out of context and ascribing beliefs to Haley that she does not have.

    At no time did she defend his claim that he had really won, saying only that he had the right to pursue questions in the courts. During the whole period, she was very selective of what she said about Trump, supporting him only when many did.

    She is not the only person who found Trump to be in full command of his office. Read Woodward’s book. Mattis and others found him highly engaged when they interviewed and first went to work for him. Over time, those with close contact with him became alarmed at the growing instability, but it was not an immediate reaction.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  52. Look for it next week in the inaugural address, Dustin:

    “Ask not what this Biden can do for you; ask what you can do for my Hunter.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  53. @51. Nikki nailed it the other day; can’t go back to the GOP that was; Trump brought in new voters; work w/them and look to the future. Clinging to the old establishment is just another path to the wilderness.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  54. By the way, is there anyone here who insists that the GOP return to the pre-Trump platform in its entirety before they will return to the fold?

    If so, I strongly suggest you found a new party as that will NOT happen, not should it. The Reagan-era coalition and platform was tired and creaky when Romney tried to run on it in 2012. The unintended consequences of unfettered trade and movement of capital had become the problem, not the solution. The voters were tired of hearing how they would benefit from global trade after they failed to benefit for two generations, and they are still tired of it. Neither party stands for that today, and with good reason.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  55. I think he will open with “Our longer national nightmare is over.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  56. The election of 2016 was the final end of the Sixth Party system, which had followed the New Deal system circa 1972 – 1980. Arguably the election of 2008 will be the marker going forward. It was already dead, but Trump blew it up. Biden is a product of that old system, but the times are not. Should be interesting. Kamala vs Nikki seems about right for 2024.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  57. My World… and Welcome to It.”

    I remember that show!

    I didn’t watch it much. Maybe it was hard to watch, een though I knew about James Thurber. (James Thurber died in 1962 but you could borrow his books in the library)

    If I would have thought about the show I wouldn’t have thought it was so long ago. Or ran for only one season.

    But what does that have to do with anything?

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  58. @19. ‘No senator is going to go to the wall for a loser.’

    Never say never, Kevin: some planned to for your guy, The Big Dick, back in the day:

    “There’s not more than 15 senators for you,” Goldwater said. Nixon asked the pipe-smoking Scott for his views. “I think 12 to 15,” said Scott, who had once had defended Nixon on the basis of a doctored Watergate transcript that had been shown to him privately.” – source, politico

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  59. @55. ROFLMAOPIP Oh, I DO hope so. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  60. Here’s Sensible Nikki congraulating an insane QAnon Congresswoman:

    Haley is as cynical and unprincipled as they come. She just disguises it better.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  61. @55. Look for ‘Truth is the glue that holds government together’ as another juicy stand-by line for the plagiarist to lift, too. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  62. @60. Shorter: pragmatic.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  63. Patterico (115b1f) — 1/14/2021 @ 1:14 pm

    Haley is as cynical and unprincipled as they come. She just disguises it better.

    Maybe she’s more intelligent and foresightful about it, so she looks principled.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  64. If I had my druthers… Ron DeSantis should run.

    whembly (c30c83)

  65. Even shorter: scurred.

    urbanleftbehind (8d2d44)

  66. People are already noting Boebert’s resemblance to the point woman of the 2008 party system change.

    urbanleftbehind (8d2d44)

  67. @56. Kamala vs Nikki seems about right for 2024.

    Agree.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  68. Not me. Didn’t vote for the known plagiarist,

    But you keep lowering the bar for Trump with your idea of what Nixon means to the world today. That’s the only way Biden made it.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  69. That’s the only way Biden made it.

    He ‘made it’ because he secured his party nomination and people voted for him, Dustin.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  70. @68. Dustin, Nixon won in a genuine landslide in November, 1972; Watergate occurred in June,’72– five month earlier, and was merely one element of broader criminal activity by his administration methodically exposed– by journalists.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  71. I voted for him because guys like you lowered the bar so much. Biden was the right choice. Trump has proven this.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  72. I tend to believe less and less what any media outlet produces. Everyone has an axe to grind, and no one seems committed to saying anything positive about someone they dislike. Everything is shaded to promote a given narrative.

    All I see are people trying to score points off of one another. Everywhere.

    Simon Jester (72e89c)

  73. The unintended consequences of unfettered trade and movement of capital had become the problem, not the solution. The voters were tired of hearing how they would benefit from global trade after they failed to benefit for two generations, and they are still tired of it.

    They may be tired of it, but we’re all benefiting economically from the practice, and “unfettered” is a red herring.
    I’d like to see less trade with China, because they’re China, but there are good reasons to join TPP.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  74. @Jester, “All I see are people trying to score points off of one another.”

    It’s all predicated on keeping people as angry, fearful, and full of hate as possible. There’s zero effort at giving a good-faith presentation of the other side’s position. But people are hooked on drama…..and they want their own views fed back to them. If anything, we’re sliding deeper and deeper into polarization. Step 1 is for people to understand why what we are reflexively doing is bad….then Step 2 is to find ways to turn down the volume. The problem is that it’s too easy to be an ideologue.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  75. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/14/2021 @ 12:56 pm

    By the way, is there anyone here who insists that the GOP return to the pre-Trump platform in its entirety before they will return to the fold?

    If so, I strongly suggest you found a new party as that will NOT happen, not should it.

    Not is correct. Not only can’t you step into the same river twice but that river just isn’t there anymore.

    frosty (f27e97)

  76. AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/14/2021 @ 2:15 pm

    angry, fearful, and full of hate

    I wonder which of these is the easiest to deal with or the best to start with. There’s not much you can really do about fear and it can serve a purpose. I’d say hate. A person can choose to let go of hate and the anger can fade but it’s got to go in that order.

    frosty (f27e97)

  77. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/14/2021 @ 1:40 pm

    But you keep lowering the bar for Trump with your idea of what Nixon means to the world today. That’s the only way Biden made it.

    I wouldn’t blame Nixon. I put it on COVID. If the jobs and economic numbers would have held steady over 2020 I don’t think Trump would have lost.

    frosty (f27e97)

  78. 72. frosty (f27e97) — 1/14/2021 @ 2:39 pm

    . If the jobs and economic numbers would have held steady over 2020 I don’t think Trump would have lost.

    Trump actually did beter in 220 than he did in 2016 among people who were closer to the poverty level (because remember, Democrats, as a rule, were for economic shutdowns, without seeming to understand what effects it would have.)

    He did worse than in 2016 among people who were more well off.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  79. Here’s Sensible Nikki congraulating an insane QAnon Congresswoman:

    Haley is as cynical and unprincipled as they come. She just disguises it better.

    Boebert’s positions (Wikipedia, which is not her friend):

    Budget: During her 2020 campaign, Boebert pledged that, if elected to the House, she will not support any federal budget that results in additional debt. She supports a balanced budget amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

    Education: Boebert has advocated eliminating the United States Department of Education.

    Electoral college: Boebert opposes the National Popular Vote initiative, which would elect the president by popular vote.

    Energy: Boebert supports an “all-of-above energy” policy, which refers to developing and using a combination of resources to meet energy demand. The resources would include nonrenewable resources (e.g., crude oil) and renewable resources (e.g., solar).

    Environment: Boebert opposes the Green New Deal. She claimed that the plan would cost $93 trillion and lead to bankruptcy for the U.S. This figure has been disputed.

    Gun rights: Boebert is a gun-rights supporter, and opposes expanding gun control regulations. She is against Colorado’s red flag law, which the Colorado General Assembly passed in 2019.

    Healthcare: Boebert has called for the repeal of the Affordable Care Act, which was signed into law by President Barack Obama. She does not support a single-payer healthcare system, saying it would put small businesses like hers out of business because of the prohibitive cost.

    Immigration: Boebert supports the construction of a Mexico–United States border wall and opposes giving amnesty to illegal immigrants residing in the United States.

    Social issues: Boebert opposes abortion, comprehensive sex education, and federal funding of Planned Parenthood.

    Which of these positions do you view as “insane”? Her initial view of QAnon was positive, but in July she rejected them as a nutty conspiracy group. But no doubt whatever you read didn’t include that point.

    I have a hard time saying this is not a Republican to support, and I echo Haley’s congratulations on her victory, and her victory in the primary over Trump’s candidate.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  80. BTW, you can believe there is such a thing as the Deep State, in the sense that apparatchiks network and have some common objectives, and not have to believe that Pelosi is drinking baby blood for breakfast.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  81. I see that some leftie newspapers are calling every Congressman who argued against impeachment, or suggested the election was not fair, are part of the conspiracy to attack Congress, are traitors and should be ejected from Congress. I see nothing quite so likely as to start a civil war as that.

    This rhetoric has gone over the top in a mere week.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. Off-topic:

    How stupid can government officials be? This stupid.

    The New Mexico health authorities established that one would need a code to get a vaccine from any provider in their system. They gave the same code (“BYE2020″) to all the medical personnel in the first group. They were absolutely shocked to find out that thousands of other people were using that same code to jump the line.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  83. A Republican Lawmaker for Whom the Spectacle Is the Point

    ……Lauren Boebert was causing a spectacle before even making it into the chamber. She pushed her way through newly installed metal detectors and ignored police officers who asked her to stop so they could check her with a hand-held wand.

    This reprised a standoff from the evening before, when Ms. Boebert, a freshman Republican from Colorado, refused to show guards what was inside her handbag as she entered the building. In both cases, she was eventually granted access, but not before engineering a made-for-Twitter moment that delighted the far right.
    ……..
    The standoff at the metal detectors was a characteristic stunt by Ms. Boebert. She is only 10 days into her term but has already arranged several episodes that showcased her brand of far-right defiance as a conspiracy theorist who proudly boasts of carrying her Glock handgun to Washington. She is only one of 435 House members, but Ms. Boebert, 34, represents an incoming faction of the party for whom breaking the rules — and gaining notoriety for doing it — is exactly the point.
    …….
    In recent days, Ms. Boebert and a group of other freshman Republicans, including the QAnon devotee Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia and Madison Cawthorn of North Carolina, a 25-year-old freshman who claimed he was armed during the Capitol riots, have questioned or outright flouted guidelines meant to protect lawmakers from violence, intruders or the spread of the coronavirus.
    …….
    She also faced criticism, and some demands that she resign, for tweeting out information about some lawmakers’ locations during the siege at the Capitol by a violent mob last week.

    The behavior exhibited by Ms. Boebert and some of her fellow freshman Republicans prompted Timothy Blodgett, the House’s acting sergeant-at-arms, to send a memo to lawmakers on Tuesday notifying them that security screenings would be required for members seeking access to the chamber and that lawmakers who declined to wear masks would be removed from the House floor. Several Republicans responded by yelling that their rights were being violated as they passed through the metal detectors, behavior that has exasperated Democrats.
    ……..
    ……..On Wednesday, the Capitol Police and Ms. Boebert’s office declined to respond to requests about whether she had actually been carrying a gun either time she had trouble getting into the chamber. Ms. Boebert has said that she has a concealed carry permit, issued through the District of Columbia, for her gun and has claimed on Twitter that she has the right to freely carry within the Capitol complex, which is not true.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  84. Some Trump news missing from here:

    1. Trump will leave the White House on January 19. The White House will undergo a thorough coronavirus cleaning (all this is really largely unnecessary, but they keep on doing this cleaning even though they know the virus is not transmitted by contact with surfaces.) Biden will stay in a Washington Hotel, not Blair house. Pence will stay in the Vice President’s residence.

    2. Vice President Mike Pence finally (met and?) spoke with President Donald Trump on Monday night. They agreed the people who did the invasion of the Capitol did not represent their “America First” movement. Or something like that.

    3. Trump spoke with House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy some time before the impeachment. He argued that the attack on the Capitol was done by Antifa. McCarthy said he was there (they were avowed Trump supporters.)

    3. Reports are that Senate Majority Leader (for now) Mitch McConnell never intends to speak to Donald Trump again (at least, I suppose, after he’s no longer president)

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  85. Biden was the right choice.

    1988 voters would disagree, Dustin. No, the plagiarist was merely the major party alternative- by default. And a poor choice, at that; as swamp creatured choices go.

    There were other candidates running.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  86. Rip Murdock (80e6b4) — 1/14/2021 @ 3:08 pm

    The article really didn’t have enough “the far right” nods. They need to go with something like Boebert (R-far) or Boebert (fR) every time they mention her name.

    represents an incoming faction of the party for whom breaking the rules — and gaining notoriety for doing it — is exactly the point

    This. I hope to see more of this and I might reconsider my criteria for what pries cash from my pocket.

    frosty (f27e97)

  87. How stupid can government officials be?

    Exhibit A: Apollo spacecraft CO2 air scrubbers.

    The Apollo lunar module used cylindric scrubbers while the Apollo command module use cubic ones. A design and contractor oversight made all too clear aboard Apollo 13 in April, 1970.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  88. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/14/2021 @ 1:51 pm

    Biden was the right choice.

    He was the only choice the DNC gave you. That entire primary was theater. Did KH even make it to a primary?

    frosty (f27e97)

  89. I think members of Congress being obliged to go through metal detectors to enter the Chamber is definitely horsesh!t and possibly unconstitutional, and I am shocked!, shocked! I tell you shocked!, that a politician would preen and posture for the folks back home, just shocked!

    nk (1d9030)

  90. @77. Yep.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  91. @87-

    Should be Lauren Boebert (R-Insurrectionist)

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  92. The White House will undergo a thorough coronavirus cleaning……

    The cleaning is to remove anything left by Trump……

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  93. @90. And in their cafeterias, the cry remains, ‘Pass the Grey Poupon!’ 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  94. Should be Lauren Boebert (R-Insurrectionist)

    Should be Rip Murdock (pure of heart)

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  95. I want to see film of Nancy Pelosi going through the metal detector. Or any of a few dozen Congressmen. Or any Senator.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  96. No exorcism?

    nk (1d9030)

  97. Of the White House I mean.

    nk (1d9030)

  98. I think that stopped the day they made pre-op Jerry Nadler take off his belt.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  99. @Frosty@76 I think you have to at least address the fear. Generally speaking, when I’m dealing with an angry parent whose kid is in trouble, the anger is mostly fear. They are worried their student is being treated unfairly, or that this trouble will be a long term detriment to their education or their lives. Sometimes they are afraid that their child is making bad choices, or that who they believe their child is, isn’t who they are becoming. Mostly it’s fear of something, very rarely pure anger, but sometimes if we address the fear directly, it can dissipate a lot of the anger.

    @Sammy@85 Listen, if I were moving into a residence Trump had just vacated, I would also want it fumigated.

    Nic (896fdf)

  100. @72. And you have Ronald Reagan to thank for it:

    ‘The Fairness Doctrine of the United States Federal Communications Commission (FCC), introduced in 1949, was a policy that required the holders of broadcast licenses to both present controversial issues of public importance and to do so in a manner that was honest, equitable, and balanced. The FCC eliminated the policy in 1987 and removed the rule that implemented the policy from the Federal

    The Fairness Doctrine had two basic elements. It required broadcasters to devote some of their airtime to discussing controversial matters of public interest, and to air contrasting views regarding those matters. Stations were given wide latitude as to how to provide contrasting views: It could be done through news segments, public affairs shows, or editorials. The doctrine did not require equal time for opposing views but required that contrasting viewpoints be presented. The demise of this FCC rule has been considered by some to be a contributing factor for the rising level of party polarization in the United States.

    In 1985, under [Reagan] FCC Chairman Mark S. Fowler, a communications attorney who had served on Ronald Reagan’s presidential campaign staff in 1976 and 1980, the FCC released its report on General Fairness Doctrine Obligations stating that the doctrine hurt the public interest and violated free speech rights guaranteed by the First Amendment.

    On August 5, 1987, under FCC Chairman Dennis R. Patrick, a Reagan apointee, the FCC abolished the doctrine by a 4–0 vote. [Three of the four commissioners were GOP/Reagan appointees; a fourth, a GOP Nixon appointee.]

    In June 1987, Congress attempted to preempt the FCC decision and codify the Fairness Doctrine, but the legislation was vetoed by President Ronald Reagan. Another attempt to revive the doctrine in 1991 was stopped when President George H.W. Bush threatened another veto.’ -source, wikiFDFCC

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  101. @Kevin@97 There are a number of pictures of them going through the metal detectors out there. I’ve seen some of them.

    Nic (896fdf)

  102. He was the only choice the DNC gave you. That entire primary was theater. Did KH even make it to a primary?

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/14/2021 @ 3:41 pm

    Well that’s one way to look at it, and I guess with Hillary’s nomination you might as well assume the DNC is fixing it. They basically are.

    But Biden was also the winner because Trump pushed a lot of patriotic and smart voters out, and Biden was the moderate option. In a way, Trump could turn the democrats into something more moderate, and therefore push the whole window back to the right.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  103. Well that’s one way to look at it, and I guess with Hillary’s nomination you might as well assume the DNC is fixing it. They basically are.

    There is no assuming about it. The fix was in – the DNC pretty much kiboshed Sanders to ensure Hillary was the nominee.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  104. He was the only choice the DNC gave you. That entire primary was theater.

    As I recall, a black South Carolina Congressman gave Biden a key endorsement at a key moment in time, and then primary voters ended up giving Biden more votes than any other candidate. Some other schmucks won IA and NH.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  105. @HoiPolloi@106 IIRC Bernie was on the ballot in the primary for a very very long time. The Dems could’ve voted for him, regardless of what the DNC thought. They didn’t, though.

    OTOH, maybe the RNC should’ve exerted a little more control in 2016. Might’ve prevented some of our current issues and probably wouldn’t’ve resulted in much different results re judges.

    Nic (896fdf)

  106. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/14/2021 @ 4:52 pm

    Biden was the moderate option.

    He may have been the more palatable option but I’m not sure what your definition of moderate is. Biden was presented by the party as a moderate, and other than a label I don’t know what they meant.

    In a way, Trump could turn the democrats into something more moderate, and therefore push the whole window back to the right.

    The D’s as a whole have accumulated a lot of marxists. If anything we’ve seen them opening embrace authoritarianism and call it whatever they think they can get away with. So, yea, if you’re saying Trump has given the D’s room to relabel authoritarianism then I’d agree. But it’s just a relabel. Personally I think it’s good that we don’t have to pretend they care about liberalism.

    frosty (f27e97)

  107. @DCSCA: Congratulations. You’ve been plagiarized by Donald Trump:

    Trump explodes at Nixon comparisons as he prepares to leave office

    It’s like a lawyer being cited by the Supreme Court if the Justices were lying, ignorant, solipsistic demagogues.

    lurker (59504c)

  108. those dnc meanies

    they just refused to put up a candidate mr. trump could beat this time

    it’s like they didn’t really want him to be reelected to another four years

    come on, man

    i know you suspect it too

    you just don’t want to say it

    nk (1d9030)

  109. One question is whether Chief Justice Roberts would even preside at the impeachment trial since the conditions that required his presence would not exist after 12pm on 1/21/2021. This would mean that VP Harris would preside, no?
    Vladeck says “yes”, Roberts would preside.
    Gerhardt says “no”, it’s Harris.
    The situation is unprecedented, but I’m leaning toward Harris being president at the trial because this is ultimately a political process. We’ll see.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  110. @110. Jaking-The-Tapper-on-Twitter?

    Very Carlos Danger of you. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  111. He may have been the more palatable option but I’m not sure what your definition of moderate is. Biden was presented by the party as a moderate, and other than a label I don’t know what they meant.

    The word moderate means less extreme, which obviously Biden was. You can only compare him to the rest of the field. Sanders, Harris, Gabbard, etc. Biden was the moderate option.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  112. There is no assuming about it. The fix was in – the DNC pretty much kiboshed Sanders to ensure Hillary was the nominee.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/14/2021 @ 5:36 pm

    true

    Dustin (4237e0)

  113. It’s hard to fathom why people who appear to be not stupid decided that the only way to save America was to put a psychopath in the White House.

    I could see that Trump is mentally disordered soon after he started campaigning (and I hadn’t paid any attention to him before that). It’s become more and more obvious since then, yet it still seems to escape the notice of some people who make a living by presuming to offer intelligent commentary on what’s going on.

    Now a large portion of the GOP rank and file see a psychopath as the only trustworthy, patriotic leader in the nation. It might be different if the people who should have known better had opened their eyes, or not decided it was clever to say that the truth about Trump is the opposite of what looks most obvious.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  114. There is no assuming about it. The fix was in – the DNC pretty much kiboshed Sanders to ensure Hillary was the nominee.

    This sort of intra-party ratf*cking was the norm for most of the country’s history.

    The DNC (and RNC) are elected bodies, and indirectly reflect the choices of the party rank-and-file.

    Dave (1bb933)

  115. It’s hard to fathom why people who appear to be not stupid decided that the only way to save America was to put a psychopath in the White House.

    A consistent theme from Trump fans is to force the binary choice to leave Trump as the less extreme, only OK option. That means propaganda about how Biden’s this or that. It doesn’t help that he has a history of dishonesty.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  116. Now a large portion of the GOP rank and file see a psychopath as the only trustworthy, patriotic leader in the nation

    I’ve been thinking about this and I think I actually have it. I think we are essentially dealing with drug addiction. People go about their lives, maybe a little discontent, a little lonely, a little unheard. Then they see a Trump rally. Trump reinforces some of their unappreciated beliefs, makes them feel they belong, gives them something to be angry at and something to be afraid of. All of a sudden they get a big hit of endorphins and adrenaline.

    Now, maybe after the first time, they are still OK, but the hit felt good. Maybe at some point they seek it again. And they get another hit. And then later another. And soon the occasional hit isn’t enough. Soon they are watching all the Trump rallies, nodding along, feeding the feeling, bingeing. But then, sadness, the rallies aren’t as frequent, fewer hits. But the find a maintenance dose, little hits from Twitter, 2 or 3 or 4 times a day, and still the big hits, the binges every now and then. Maybe they go to a rally and have a huge binge weekend. Their behaviors start to change, they experience paranoia, they maybe lie to their friends or spouse when the friends/spouse express concerns about the changes. No, no, they are fine. They can handle it. They don’t HAVE to go to the rallies, or watch them, of course not, they can sneak them on their phone instead. They start to hang out with different people, people who also need the hit, who feed each other’s addiction.

    But no, their supply will soon be cut off. Their dealer is being forced out of business. Their prescription isn’t getting renewed. No one understands! They NEED this! THIS IS WHAT MAKES THEM FEEL WELL! And then maybe they go one step further. Some of their friends have been beyond the law, of course. Nothing really happened to them. Everyone does it. They’ll be fine, everyone will understand this is the right thing.

    They break the law. Everyone suddenly hits bottom. Their addiction is out in the open. Some of them have their eyes open, time to get clean. But some of them, maybe many, they aren’t ready to go clean. Some of them are sneaking their addiction, talking about how bad their drug experience was, but it was only that one time, they are fine now. Some of them are using openly, defiant against judgement. Maye they’ll find a new dealer, or a little bit different drug soon. Maybe they’ll pretend they are clean, but maybe not.

    Trump addicts.

    Nic (896fdf)

  117. I see it more as a floozy, that would be the Republican Party, all the nomenklatura from top to bottom, bringing a new boyfriend home and telling the kids he was their new daddy. What can the kids do but bond with him?

    nk (1d9030)

  118. @nk@120 I know a lot of kids who dislike stepdad, say bad things about him, and stay the heck out of the house as much as possible.

    Nic (896fdf)

  119. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/14/2021 @ 7:35 pm

    It’s hard to fathom

    It’s called manufactured consent, although I think the book only deals with a part. Almost all of the media content the average American consumes contains propaganda. A lot of it is pure 100% manipulation and lies. This was used to support the status quo but at some point, this changed. I’m not sure exactly when but at least for the last 10-15 years there have been at least two narratives. They’ve increasingly diverged and people are pulled into one or the other. Most of the people you’re talking about feel the same about you.

    Nic (896fdf) — 1/14/2021 @ 9:07 pm

    I think we are essentially dealing with drug addiction.

    This is part of how it works, the dopamine hit. Confirmation bias helps. But it’s not just Trumpers.

    But no, their supply will soon be cut off. Their dealer is being forced out of business.

    He isn’t the dealer. He’s just the current drug. And that drug is being fed to both groups. We’ll see what it gets swapped out with but that business is not going away.

    Their addiction is out in the open. Some of them have their eyes open, time to get clean. But some of them, maybe many, they aren’t ready to go clean.

    As far as I can tell most of them, on both sides, aren’t even to step 1. If we’re sticking with the drug analogy, I keep hearing someone trying to find a vein tell the guy beside him he needs to lay off the coke.

    frosty (f27e97)

  120. Well …

    ‘QAnon Shaman’ Seeks Presidential Pardon From Trump, Says He Received ‘Invitation’ To Riot

    He took seriously the countless messages of President Trump. He believed in President Trump. Like tens of millions of other Americans, Chansley felt — for the first time in his life — as though his voice was being heard. My client had heard the oft-repeated words of President Trump. The words and invitation of a president are supposed to mean something. Given the peaceful and compliant fashion in which Mr. Chansley comported himself, it would be appropriate and honorable for the president to pardon Mr. Chansley and other like-minded, peaceful individuals who accepted the president’s invitation with honorable intentions.

    nk (1d9030)

  121. The drug analogy is good, but I see it more like a cult. I was fascinated by the series Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath, and The Vow, HBO’s series about the NXIVM cult. Cults are so powerful. Yes, maybe endorphins are involved. People see the cult leader as a god, and are stupefyingly blind to any evidence that might counter that view. It is extremely difficult to extricate somebody from a cult, even a near and dear family member.

    Cults give people a leader, an enemy, a purpose, and a community. Ideologies, be they religious or political, have caused people to do horrendous things throughout history. Witness the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Taiping Rebellion, Communism, Nazism, and Islamism. Now we have Trumpism.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  122. I would add extremists on the left (like Antifa, ALF, ELF) to that list, also.

    Note: All of these ideologies have some good aspect to them. That’s why they are successful. Nobody joins The Cult of Evil.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  123. This sort of intra-party ratf*cking was the norm for most of the country’s history.

    If only the GOP had RF’d Trump in 2016.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  124. Now a large portion of the GOP rank and file see a psychopath as the only trustworthy, patriotic leader in the nation

    This is unfair. Trump is a sociopath. A psychopath is a murderous sociopath.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  125. A better analogy then flight 93 is never trumpers and libertarian conservatives like col custer and saying all right men don’t take any prisinors! or the alamo if you prefer. Trump supporters are now 90% of whats left of the republican party. They are populists and don’t care what libertarian conservatives think about anything! The 10 republicans who voted against trump will all get primaried.

    asset (9675d4)

  126. asset,

    I hate to break it to you, but you’re in a cult. Call it populism if you must, but you are still under the spell of a cult leader.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  127. Of course you can’t see that you’re in a cult. That’s the nasty thing about cults.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  128. @norcal@124 I wouldn’t disagree with that analogy either.

    @frosty@125 I think it’s something else with the Antifa riots. I think that’s more of a moshpit mentality there. A sort of mass hysteria combined with destruction catharsis. There was something in the 80s called scream therapy (there are some here that might remember that phenomenon far better than I 😛 ). I think the Antifa riots are similar to scream therapy writ large.

    Nic (896fdf)

  129. As I see it, if the House impeaches a President and submits articles of impeachment to the Senate, the Senate must hold a trial or dismiss the articles. If the articles are accepted and a trial is held, that the President is out of office, having lost the election, is irrelevant, because the trial will not be held to remove him from office but rather to prevent him from holding elected office in the future. The question of who should preside over the trial, the Chief Justice or the Vice-President, is an interesting one. There never has been a trial like this one, so we shall see.

    CNN reports that several Republicans want there to be a trial so they can use the platform and media coverage to argue about voter fraud and election theft, in other words to further promote the Big Lie. That would be an idiotic mistake, because that’s not the trial will be about. It will be about the high crime of inciting insurrectionists to storm the Capitol, which resulted in an armed invasion, destruction of federal property, numerous injuries and several deaths; Representatives, Senators, and the Vice-President had their lives threatened. That’s a high crime, and it’s not a misdemeanor; it’s a felony.

    I watched the press conference given by top FBI and DHS agents. The acting director of these agencies did not appear or issue a comment, probably because neither will be acting directors after next week. The FBI agent, however, said the ongoing investigation into the insurrection will be broad and all-encompassing. Across the country, FBI agents are investigating social media sites, chat rooms, bank accounts, and travel records. This is serious, because the insurrectionists are planning similar sieges on capitol buildings in all 50 states on or before or after Inauguration Day, January 20.

    Over 200 arrests have already been made, with hundreds more to come. Charges will include everything trespass, destruction of federal property, theft, assault, murder, sedition and conspiracy. The latter three are the more serious, because the sentence for those crimes is at least 20 years in prison.

    I also watched the impeachment hearing. Many Representatives rose to speak of how terrified they were during the siege, hiding under desks and in secure rooms. But those rooms were not so secure, because several people came out of them infected with coronavirus, because Republicans refused to wear masks. These Republicans spent their time on the floor arguing about process–we didn’t form a committee, hold hearings, examine evidence of voter fraud and election theft, blah, blah, blah.

    It was as ridiculous (and boring) as it was pathetic. With millions infected, Covid-19 is killing thousands a day. What are we at now, around 380,000 dead? That’s approaching how many lives were lost in the Civil War. 3,000 dead a day, that’s worse than 9-11, much worse, because 9-11 was a one-time event; this is an ongoing tragedy.

    All of this could have been prevented were it not for Trump. His incompetence; his denials and lies; his corruption; his incitement of insurrection; damn right there should be a Senate trial to prohibit him from ever holding public office again.

    Not being able to hold public office again is the least of Trump’s worries. He’s bankrupt, which is his habit. His hotels, resorts and golf courses are bleeding money. The PGA won’t be played at Bedminster. He owes hundreds of millions in personally guaranteed loans to foreign creditors. Banks will no longer loan him money, not even Deutsche. The list of businesses who will no longer donate to him or his supplicant supporters is long. He’s been banned from Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube.

    Once he is a private citizen, at noon on Jan. 20, he will be subject to prosecutions for state crimes. There’s no pardon for those. Bank and wire fraud, illegal campaign contributions, etc..

    The Manhattan DA and the New York AG have been pursuing these investigations for at least two years. I’m supposing that other cities and states have been as well. The Trump Organization is doomed.

    I don’t agree with analogies to the Revolution or the Civil War. The insurrectionists may believe that is their purpose, but they are largely uneducated and ill-informed.

    The proper analogy is to the flight of Icarus. With wax wings he flew too close the Sun, the wings melted and he fell to the Earth, and died. That’s Donald J (who thinks his middle initial stands for Jesus) Trump.

    The Republican party is left in ruin. For as long as they follow Trump, their wings will inevitably melt and they will fall, crash to the ground, and die politically.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  130. @130. Of course you can’t see that you’re in a cult. That’s the nasty thing about cults.

    Nasty. Of course:

    Reaganoptics. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  131. @127. He’s a New Yorker. 😉

    “Ya’ talkin’ to me? Hey! I’m walkin’ here! I’m walkin’ here!”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  132. I saw President-Elect Joe Biden speaking live, on CBS at least, about his coronavirus and other plans at just past 7:30 PM EST. He had about eight little different things he proposed. He used general language (and actually left his plans for vaccine distribution for the next day) but indicated he is for getting another coronavorus bill through Congress soon, and among the things it would include is another $2,000 neck per person on top of the $600) and an increase in the child tax credit.

    And also eviction protection, (not forgetting also to help “Mom and Pop” landlords) extended unemployment benefits etc. He didn’t forget to speak a little about about infrastructure, too, or the climate, although that seemed not to be part of the bill he wants passed quickly.

    It would cost about $2 trillion (spent till now is $4 trillion) Some of that money would go to things that are supposed to be directly fighting the disease, and some would go to economic stimulus.

    He seemed to be thinking that ALL people would spend the money themselves.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  133. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:00 pm

    This is unfair. Trump is a sociopath. A psychopath is a murderous sociopath.

    It sounds like you’re using it as a replacement for serial killer. APD is a spectrum. People who test high on APD are over represented in C level positions at corporations and in politics. The traits of “sociopaths” are the same traits that help them make decisions that impact large groups of people or to manipulate people on the scale needed. It’s hard for a normal person to routinely deal with that level of stress.

    I’m confident that every POTUS between FDR and BO, with the possible exception of Carter and Truman, wouldn’t have had a problem with nuking Japan. I say Carter because I think he’s low on the APD spectrum and I really don’t know much about Truman. I say wouldn’t have had a problem to mean their primary concern would be the correct empathy to emote because they lack the authentic empathy. Most presidents are high on the APD spectrum. It would be unusual if DJT weren’t.

    Saying someone in a position of power is a psychopath isn’t saying much more than he’s a dangerous person. The fancy word is used because it’s got more punch. It comes with automatic jazz hands.

    BTW; if you read that and automatically think I’m trying to defend or normalize Trump I’d reference my other comment above about manufactured consent. If that’s your first thought you may be trapped in one of those manufactured narratives.

    frosty (f27e97)

  134. norcal (b4d7b1) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:20 pm

    asset,

    I hate to break it to you, but you’re in a cult. Call it populism if you must, but you are still under the spell of a cult leader.

    Most of the people currently making the cult charge are themselves trapped by an ideology, believe a lot of false things, etc., and are only distinguished from the people they are trying to criticize by not having a “leader”.

    frosty (f27e97)

  135. No, Frosty.

    Your efforts to defend Trump are certainly educational, but they are not very effective. The idea that people pointing out Trump support and Q anon ideology is like a cult are not, themselves, the ‘real problem’ with America.

    You guys have the rest of your lives to think about what you’ve done to our great country and I hope you spend more time listening. don’t approach every criticism of Trump looking for some way to flip it or twist it. Stop complaining about the folks who were right, all along, about Trump supporters. We were right and it is obvious.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  136. Cultists and dopers account for maybe 15 million or so of his voters. “Democrats suck” for maybe another 10 million. The other 50 million can be laid entirely at the feet of of the GOP serohw who took him in, legitimized him, and propped him up for four years because he procured for them and they didn’t have to walk the streets as much anymore. Now the GOP is faced with the conundrum of the Australian throwing away his old boomerang and they deserve to get it right in the back of the neck.

    nk (1d9030)

  137. frosty:
    The most important thing you need to know about Truman as you try to determine if he would have had a problem nuking Japan is that he, in fact, nuked Japan.

    kaf (aab2bd)

  138. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/15/2021 @ 8:15 am

    I would be surprised if even once you accurately characterized my position. I still can’t tell if you are unwilling or unable to.

    Some cults might not have a leader and still have temple guards and priests of all sorts.

    frosty (f27e97)

  139. Rioters wanted to ‘capture and assassinate’ lawmakers, prosecutors say. A note left by the ‘QAnon Shaman’ is evidence.
    ……..
    In a court filing late on Thursday, federal prosecutors in Phoenix wrote that “strong evidence, including (Jacob Anthony) Chansley’s own words and actions at the Capitol, supports that the intent of the Capitol rioters was to capture and assassinate elected officials in the United States government.”
    ………
    The 18-page memo, which asked a judge to keep Chansley detained before his trial, said the 33-year-old Arizona man left an ominous note for Vice President Pence at his desk in the Senate chamber: “It’s only a matter of time, justice is coming.”

    But in a statement to The Washington Post, St. Louis attorney Albert S. Watkins said he had been retained as Chansley’s lawyer and called for President Trump to pardon him.

    Watkins claimed that Chansley acted in a “peaceful and compliant fashion” toward law enforcement and was cooperating with their investigation. Besides, he argued, the Arizona man only went to the Capitol because he was following Trump’s invitation.
    “He took seriously the countless messages of President Trump. He believed in President Trump,” Watkins said. “Like tens of millions of other Americans, Chansley felt — for the first time in his life — as though his voice was being heard.”
    ……..
    Chansley, who called the FBI himself to acknowledge that he was in the riot, told investigators that “he came as a part of a group effort, with other ‘patriots’ from Arizona, at the request of the President that all ‘patriots’ come to D.C. on January 6, 2021.”
    …….
    “I trust in God and I know that I didn’t do anything wrong,” he said. “And even if I was arrested, wasn’t Gandhi arrested a lot? Wasn’t Martin Luther King Jr. arrested a lot? Wasn’t Jesus arrested? I put my trust in God, not the government.”
    Since his arrest last week, Chansley again made headlines after his mother, Martha Chansley, said he had been starving himself in jail because he “gets very sick if he doesn’t eat organic food.” The local office for the U.S. Marshals Service told KNXV that it would comply with a judge’s order to provide all-organic meals in line with his shaman diet.
    ……..
    Watkins also called on Trump to pardon “other like-minded, peaceful individuals who accepted the president’s invitation with honorable intentions.”

    While prosecutors have pointed out that Chansley brought a spear with him inside the Capitol, Watkins noted that his client also brought a megaphone, “so his voice could be heard.”
    >>>>>>

    “My client had heard the oft-repeated words of President Trump,” Watkins said. “The words and invitation of a president are supposed to mean something.”

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  140. Saying someone in a position of power is a psychopath isn’t saying much more than he’s a dangerous person. The fancy word is used because it’s got more punch.

    The fancy word is used because that’s how psychiatrists refer to someone whose psychology as pathological in particular ways.

    A psychopath is dangerous because of an abnormal mentality that includes a lack of empathy for other human beings and a failure to understand that truth and goodness do not revolve strictly around self-interest.

    A psychopath actually believes that anything he does to benefit himself cannot possibly be wrong. When Trump gloated that he could “shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose any voters,” he meant it.

    Trump routinely reveals his grossly self-centered view of right and wrong, but his apologists keep insisting he’s really not like that at all — because they have chosen to disbelieve their own ears and eyes.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  141. kaf (aab2bd) — 1/15/2021 @ 8:40 am

    frosty:
    The most important thing you need to know about Truman as you try to determine if he would have had a problem nuking Japan is that he, in fact, nuked Japan.

    Thanks for not actually reading my comment and helping Dustin prove my point. Implying that I don’t know who dropped the bomb is a real zinger, you really got me there, and jumping right past what I said gets you extra points. Enjoy the cookies and punch. Dustin is glad to have you on his side.

    The issue with the APD spectrum isn’t whether someone can do something, it’s how they process it. So, I’ll reword this hoping you’ll take another chance to read it. I don’t know enough about Truman to have an opinion as to whether a single decision that killed so many people actually bothered him. Anyone in that situation knows that they need to act like it bothers them, at least a little. I don’t think many presidents would actually be bothered by it.

    frosty (f27e97)

  142. Vaccine reserve was already exhausted when Trump administration vowed to release it, dashing hopes of expanded access
    When Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar announced this week that the federal government would begin releasing coronavirus vaccine doses held in reserve for second shots, no such reserve existed, according to state and federal officials briefed on distribution plans. The Trump administration had already begun shipping out what was available beginning at the end of December, taking second doses directly off the manufacturing line.
    …….
    Azar’s comments followed a Jan. 8 announcement by President-elect Joe Biden’s transition team that his administration would move to release all available doses, rather than holding half in reserve for booster shots. Biden’s advisers said the move would be a way to accelerate distribution of the vaccine, which is in short supply across the country.

    When Azar embraced the change four days later — after initially saying it was shortsighted and potentially unethical to risk the availability of a booster shot — he did not say the original policy had already been phased out, or that the stockpile had been exhausted. Signaling to states that they would soon see expanded supply, he also urged them to begin vaccinating adults 65 and older and those under 64 with a high-risk medical condition. Officials in some states embraced that directive, while others said suddenly putting hundreds of thousands of additional people at the front of the line would overwhelm their capacity.
    ……..
    “States were shocked and surprised that they did not see an increase in their allocations, and when they asked for explanations, some of them were told there was not a large stockpile of second doses to draw from,” said an official working with numerous states on vaccination planning who spoke on the condition of anonymity to recount sensitive conversations. “They thought they were getting more doses and they planned for more doses and opened up to 65 and up, thinking they were getting more.”

    In an email that reached some state officials on Friday morning, Christopher Sharpsten, an Operation Warp Speed director, called it a “false rumor” that “the federal government was holding back vaccine doses in warehouses to guarantee a second/booster dose.”

    But it had been Azar who said Tuesday hat one of the changes being made in the government’s “next phase” of vaccination was that “we are releasing the entire supply we have for order by states, rather than holding second doses in physical reserve.”
    ……….
    More bait and switch with peoples’ lives by the Trump Administration.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  143. More bait and switch with peoples’ lives by the Trump Administration.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/15/2021 @ 9:06 am

    This makes cynical sense. Trump can show a lot of vaccinations, then as soon as Trump’s out of office, the second doses he used up aren’t there. And the disinfo mob has already blamed this on Biden. It’s a clear lie being weaved before our eyes.

    Trump fans often complain that ‘nevertrumpers’ are histronic and fragile, but the real weakness is in refusing to see this pattern, refusing to call BS on Trump’s administration after four years of screwing everything up, day in and day out.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  144. OTOH, what do you call a people 1/3 indifferent, 1/3 opposed and 1/3 actively rebellious?

    Americans, circa 1776.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  145. Some cults might not have a leader and still have temple guards and priests of all sorts.

    Trumpers like to imagine that Trump critics all belong to a huge “anti-Trump cult,” because they want to believe that dislike of Trump has to be a result of brainwashing or falling for “MSM narratives,” while they themselves are getting the straight-up truth at Trump-friendly outlets.

    I became Trump-critical while I was reading and listening to a lot of conservative media that went full-on Trumpy, or mostly pro-Trump. I wasn’t following instructions from CNN or the NYT or any set of priests and temple guards.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  146. ” because they want to believe that dislike of Trump has to be a result of brainwashing or falling for “MSM narratives,

    Exactly. By deflecting Trump criticism into this insult, that the critic is the problem for being duped, the Trump supporter doesn’t ever reach that point where we look into the actual merits of the criticism. It’s another version of ignoring that Trump was always a dishonest sleazeball. That doesn’t matter to them because ‘he fights’ and ‘fake news’, even though obviously it should have mattered a lot.

    The danger of putting a guy like that in power was profoundly greater than getting some good executive orders Biden will undo in minutes.

    It’s time to score points on this issue. Trump’s supporters were mistaken, their arguments were generally a way to avoid the arguments, and the failure of nevertrumpers to reach them is a bright red warning about our future. We have to press this thing and reach people.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  147. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/15/2021 @ 8:55 am

    The fancy word is used because that’s how psychiatrists refer to someone whose psychology as pathological in particular ways.

    Well, no. You can google it if you want. When I try that the very first link is helpful:

    The term “psychopath” is used to describe someone who is callous, unemotional, and morally depraved. While the term isn’t an official mental health diagnosis, it is often used in clinical and legal settings

    The DSM instead uses terms like antisocial personality disorder (APD or ASPD) and dissocial personality disorder (DPD) and if wikipedia is to be believed the DSM has that because “many of the classic traits of psychopathy were impossible to measure objectively”.

    It goes on:

    Although no psychiatric or psychological organization has sanctioned a diagnosis titled “psychopathy”, assessments of psychopathic characteristics are widely used in criminal justice settings in some nations and may have important consequences for individuals. The study of psychopathy is an active field of research, and the term is also used by the general public, popular press, and in fictional portrayals. While the term is often employed in common usage along with “crazy”, “insane”, and “mentally ill”, there is a categorical difference between psychosis and psychopathy.”

    Using the term in the form “is a psychopath” is consistent with the “general public, popular press, and in fictional portrayals” version but it’s not how “psychiatrists refer to someone” as a diagnosis.

    A psychopath is dangerous because of an abnormal mentality that includes a lack of empathy for other human beings and a failure to understand that truth and goodness do not revolve strictly around self-interest.

    This isn’t technically true either. This is part of the fictional portrayal thing. A person with ASPD can understand that truth and goodness do not revolve strictly around self-interest otherwise high-functioning individuals wouldn’t understand that they have to fake it. They understand moral constraints they’re just willing to ignore them.

    A psychopath actually believes that anything he does to benefit himself cannot possibly be wrong.

    Also not completely true. Maybe in some cases but this is an oversimplification. This doesn’t know right from wrong thing is a myth, I think from the legal system. They are perfectly capable of knowing whether something is wrong and appreciating the consequences of their actions. They just aren’t constrained by that.

    frosty (f27e97)

  148. 150

    if wikipedia is to be believed the DSM has that because “many of the classic traits of psychopathy were impossible to measure objectively”

    Everything in the DSM descriptions or indications is “reliable” (more or less consistent one person to another applying that label) and none of it has to be be ‘valid” (actually true.)

    It was created for billing purposes.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  149. Frosty:
    I did read it. It seemed like you were talking about the types people being able to make the decision and not about living with it afterwards. I based that on the “make decisions “ in your first paragraph. So thank you for the clarification.

    kaf (0ff60d)

  150. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/15/2021 @ 9:22 am

    Trumpers like to imagine that Trump critics all belong to a huge “anti-Trump cult,” because they want to believe that dislike of Trump has to be a result of brainwashing or falling for “MSM narratives,”

    Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

    The “OMG, Trump is some clearly and obviously a deranged psychopath and only the true see’ers have truly seen it all along!” is cult dogma no different from “OMG, Pelosi drinks baby blood to stay alive!”. You should genuflect every time you say it.

    There’s a 3rd group who don’t believe they are getting the straight-up truth at all, don’t believe the anti-Trump cult has it, and don’t believe the Trump cult has it. If most of your comments are basically verbatim repeats from your preferred outlet you’re in one of the cults. You can escape. There is a 3rd choice. I keep saying this and clerics of the cults keep saying I’m forcing a binary choice and that it’s either Trump love or Trump hate. At least we still have irony.

    frosty (f27e97)

  151. Nobody really needs the second doses, except as a booster shot, and younger people certainly don’t need t at all, and, at least up to 3 or 4 months after the first shot, the later the booster shot is given, the stronger the immunity. The only reason for the booster shot was to increase the immunity in order to increase thee probability of getting approval from the Food and Drug administration.

    In Los Angeles now, about one third of the population is immune, mostly not due to the vaccine.

    In New York City they’re finally pushing the vaccine out the door but may run out of vaccine temprarily next week.

    By the way, it does take a few days after the first injection to get some immunity. And I would guess, a person is more at risk f serious disease after getting the vaccine if he or she was infected shortly before or within 4 or 5 days after getting the vaccine, although I don’t expect them to tell you that but that’s probably what your doctor will say to you about the flu vaccine and that’s why they don’t give it to people with respiratory infections.

    The reason is that a vaccine gives the body’s immune system some extra work to do. It could be a good idea to take certain vitamins when getting vaccinated and/or to be more cautious for a few days.

    The flu vaccine is supposed to be given when there’s no flu around and the same thing goes for other vaccines and their diseases. That’s not the case with the coronavirus vaccine.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  152. “Anti-Trump cult” is an oxymoron because it has no fetish. It is simply Trump cultists projecting a derogatory term which does fit them because they do have an orange fetish.

    nk (1d9030)

  153. Rip Murdock @145.

    Looks like they made the change without announcing it until after Biden endorsed it. Doing it without telling people also means that states may have switched to a delayed second dose without knowing it.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  154. Also, they don’t know what “ethos” means, so they cannot formulate “anti-Trump ethos”. They’d probably think it was one of the Three Musketeers if you tried to tell them.

    nk (1d9030)

  155. kaf (aab2bd) — 1/15/2021 @ 8:40 am

    The most important thing you need to know about Truman as you try to determine if he would have had a problem nuking Japan is that he, in fact, nuked Japan.

    he did have a problem.

    Frst he ordered it only be used on military targets (which didn’t make much sense because the radius of destruction was too big) and second, he didn’t drop a third bomb. (I have read different things about whether another bomb was ready. It was a bluff in any case)

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  156. Gawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:31 pm

    CNN reports that several Republicans want there to be a trial so they can use the platform and media coverage to argue about voter fraud and election theft, in other words to further promote the Big Lie.

    That’s a legitimate issue to contest because part of the accusation is that Trump made false claims they won the election and they won it by landslide. If Trump wants to argue that it was not a lie, he’s entitled to, and maybe having it out is the way to put an end to the claims. But it will be time consuming. Trump could instead claimed to have believed his assertions. The prosecution has to prove that’s not reasonable.

    That would be an idiotic mistake, because that’s not the trial will be about. It will be about the high crime of inciting insurrectionists to storm the Capitol,

    Of that he’s innocent, at least of doing it in the way the impeachment resolution describes. with a speech. (!)

    which resulted in an armed invasion, destruction of federal property, numerous injuries and several deaths; Representatives, Senators, and the Vice-President had their lives threatened. That’s a high crime, and it’s not a misdemeanor; it’s a felony.

    Anything that shows he really organized it and intended it would be valuable.

    I say it’s enough that he persistently tried to overturn the results of the 2020 election using improper means and asking people to do unconstitutional things.

    This is serious, because the insurrectionists are planning similar sieges on capitol buildings in all 50 states on or before or after Inauguration Day, January 20.

    This is too much. It shows an inability to disnguish between real threats and unreal ones.

    I also watched the impeachment hearing. Many Representatives rose to speak of how terrified they were during the siege, hiding under desks and in secure rooms.

    Not a hearing. This was a debate on the House floor.

    But those rooms were not so secure, because several people came out of them infected with coronavirus, because Republicans
    3,000 dead a day, that’s worse than 9-11, much worse, because 9-11 was a one-time event; this is an ongoing tragedy.

    It’s hitting 4,000,

    All of this could have been prevented were it not for Trump.

    Trum is the only one who could have made mistakes?

    his biggest mistake was, when he hit on the right thing a little bit, like the antibodies, and promised to get them out there, not following through. And limiting himself to one or two possible treatments.

    . He owes hundreds of millions in personally guaranteed loans to foreign creditors. Banks will no longer loan him money, not even Deutsche. The list of businesses who will no longer donate to him or his supplicant supporters is long. He’s been banned from Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube.

    He could be in financial trouble. It’s said he could do better by making endorsement naming and other deals in foreign countries, where he is more popular. Do people want to force him into this?

    The Trump Organization is doomed.

    Mayor de Blaso wants to cancel its contract to manage the Wollman rink, where there’s been no truble. He says it’s like doing business with the Mafia. The Trump Organzation says the cancellation is in violation of ts contract and that it will sue.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  157. Undercutting Trump, Justice Dept. ends Pa. election investigation, having found ‘insufficient evidence’ of criminal intent

    The top federal prosecutor in Harrisburg, Pa., announced Friday that his office has closed an investigation into nine discarded ballots found in the northeastern part of the state that President Trump had touted to support his unfounded claims of election rigging, saying in a statement that the probe had found “insufficient evidence to prove criminal intent on the part of the person who discarded the ballots.”
    ……..
    Though just nine ballots in a dumpster were at issue, then U.S. Attorney-David J. Freed, who oversaw prosecutors in Middle District of Pennsylvania, announced the probe in a public statement in September soon after Trump alluded to what happened on Fox News Radio’s “The Brian Kilmeade Show.” Freed also first claimed that all nine ballots were cast for Trump, though he later clarified seven of the ballots had been cast for the president and two were found sealed.
    ………
    “After a thorough investigation conducted by the FBI and prosecutors from my office, we have determined that there is insufficient evidence to prove criminal intent on the part of the person who discarded the ballots,” Brandler said. “Therefore, no criminal charges will be filed and the matter is closed.”
    ……..
    …….. According to people familiar with the matter, speaking on the condition of anonymity to describe nonpublic details of the case, the person who discarded the ballots was thought to have an intellectual disability. Local officials said the person was an independent contractor who was fired in the wake of the incident.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  158. The New Yorkk Daily News ran an editorial against bad voting machines today

    https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-edit-voting-machines-20210114-bxfcm6zj2vednayet7m66x6krm-story.html

    It seems from this that New York State Board of Elections (two Democrats and two Republicans) may certify amachine for use by counties. which apparently some people want to use because it is not Dominion..

    It says while it met standards set a long time ago, it is no good.

    1. It uses Windows 7.

    2. It uses a touch screen. These days, do we want that? of course other machines do too/

    3. It violates New York State election law by not being able to use ballots ballots printed in Spanish or Chinese (that doesn;t apply everywhere)

    4. TI create a permanent paper record, the machine prints a little grocery store receipt that is visible behind a see-through plastic covering. “The flimsy receipts are tiny and hard to see, and in a hand count would be a nightmare to tally. And the words on the receipts are just a summary. The details are in a bar code.

    5. “the new machine would usher in two very different kinds of ballots: One via mail and one in person.”

    6. While the screen shows multiple languages, the stupid machine can only print in English. Ay, caramba.

    They say they wrote against this a year ago:

    https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-edit-vote-20200120-yc7wrrhp4zc6nhzfac3hgvbhmi-story.html

    Last, the Legislature must pass another bill should the state Board of Elections wrongly okay a new voting machine, the ExpressVote XL. It’s a touch-screen contraption that makes double-checking hard and ranked-choice voting, like the city just approved, harder. After the 2000 Bush-Gore Florida debacle, a joint MIT-Cal Tech study determined that the best voting method is paper ballot, filled out by the voter and fed by the voter into a scanner.

    No, I think it’s better filled out by a machine.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  159. Death toll approaches 400,000, far exceeding Trump’s benchmark for success in containing the virus
    The coronavirus death toll in the United States is fast approaching 400,000, double the upper limit of what President Trump said would signal his administration’s success in responding to the pandemic.

    …….. With more than 3,000 Americans dying of the virus daily on average, the country could surpass the bleak figure before Trump leaves office on Wednesday.

    The U.S. death toll exceeds some of the worst predictions laid out at the beginning of the pandemic and stretches far beyond what Trump himself said was tolerable under the federal government’s efforts to slow the spread of infections. If deaths remained below 200,000, he said in March of last year, it would show his administration had “done a very good job.”

    “Four hundred thousand is an astounding number of deaths,” said Howard Markel, a medical historian at the University of Michigan. He noted that the total dead could end up rivaling the country’s fatalities in the 1918 flu pandemic, which killed more than half a million people in the United States.
    ……..
    A White House spokesman didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.

    Rip Murdock (f56c1e)

  160. Nothing to see here

    …..
    BLM activist egged on Capitol rioters: Left-winger who told CNN he was there simply to document the siege is arrested after video shows he smashed window, wore gas mask, told rioters he had knife and shouted ‘we got to get this s**t burned’
    …..
    He was interviewed by Anderson Cooper on CNN afterward, where it was implied that he was passively observing the situation as it unfolded
    …..
    Sullivan is already facing rioting and criminal mischief charges ‘stemming from a Black Lives Matter protest in Utah last year’, Rolling Stone reports

    frosty (f27e97)

  161. The New York Times also profiled, among five people from New York City, who face federal charges, someone whose politics had changed.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/nyregion/capitol-rioter-new-york.html

    Mr. Phaneuf’s politics appear to have shifted over time: In 2011, Mr. Phaneuf was profiled in The New Yorker while participating in Occupy Wall Street protests and camped out in Zuccotti Park in Manhattan. At the time, he expressed worry about the risk that right-wing speech posed to President Barack Obama. “I’m scared about what I’m hearing from the Tea Party and Rush Limbaugh; they’re creating an environment where he could be shot,” he said.

    In 2016, Mr. Phaneuf protested the retirement of William Bratton as New York City police commissioner, citing the death of Eric Garner, a Black man who was placed in a chokehold by the police on Staten Island, according to Pavement Pieces, a local news site out of New York University’s Arthur L. Carter Journalism Institute.

    This week, Mr. Phaneuf referred to Ashli Babbitt, the military veteran who was killed by Capitol Police when she tried to force her way into the United States Senate speaker’s lobby, as “a martyr,” according to an interview with a D.C. radio station, WTOP News. “We have a bloody red shirt to wave around,” he told the station.

    Of course, I suppose you could say, anything will do fora dopamine hit.

    But you get that sports competition.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  162. “Nothing to see here”

    We have reason to believe that a likely infiltrator/agent provocateur by the name of John Sullivan, or “Activist John,” is attempting to insert himself in the Seattle protest community.

    https://twitter.com/RebellionBaby/status/1331902008765206528

    Extensive twitter thread explaining that this guy isn’t what he claims to be. Check the dates, this wasn’t written in response to the capitol riots.

    Davethulhu (95ea9f)

  163. 166. That sounds like the Boogaloo movement.

    https://www.king5.com/article/news/verify/antifa-boogaloo-definitions-protests/507-7b337d4c-0361-4ed9-a1a0-3f3efdcfb13e

    Boogaloo and antifa are hard to define for several reasons, mainly because they can be more accurately described as decentralized movements rather than singular groups….Simply put, there is no national antifa organization that people can join, nor is there a national boogaloo organization….

    ….The word boogaloo in this context comes from the 1984 movie “Breakin’ 2: Electric Boogaloo,” according to the Rutgers’ Network Contagion Research Institute. The phrase electric boogaloo became a common online meme to refer to the sequel of anything.

    Before long, it was used on 4chan to refer to “Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo” which was shortened to just the “boogaloo” to refer to a second Civil War.

    For some, according to the earlier mentioned Middlebury Institute article, this second Civil War refers to a revolution against the government. For others, it refers to a race war…

    ,,,“While there are pockets of white supremacist Boogaloos, the younger and bigger groups are generally not,” she said. “While there are Boogaloos that strongly support Trump, the younger and bigger groups hate him.”

    https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/officials-see-extremist-groups-disinformation-in-protests-2

    As demonstrations spread from Minneapolis to the White House, New York City and overseas Sunday, federal law enforcement officials insisted far-left groups were stoking violence. Meanwhile, experts who track extremist groups also reported seeing evidence of the far-right at work.

    Investigators were also tracking online interference and looking into whether foreign agents were behind the effort. Officials have seen a surge of social media accounts with fewer than 200 followers created in the last month, a textbook sign of a disinformation effort.

    The accounts have posted graphic images of the protests, material on police brutality and material on the coronavirus pandemic that appeared designed to inflame tensions across the political divide, according to three administration officials. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss investigations….

    ,,..There’s a history of this. In 2016, another black man, Philando Castile, was killed by police in a Minneapolis suburb, his death livestreamed on Facebook. Russians used a fake Black Lives Matter page to confuse and stoke anger among the protesters. There were nearly 700,000 followers, but it’s not clear how many were real….

    …Before protests began in New York City, organizers of anarchist groups began raising money for bail, recruited medical teams to deploy for violent interactions with police and planned how to target high-end stores, said John Miller, the NYPD’s deputy commissioner of intelligence and counterterrorism.

    Scouts on bicycles would also move ahead of the groups to report where the police would be and then direct small breakaway groups to areas where they could torch police cars or throw Molotov cocktails, Miller said….

    https://www.quora.com/Have-right-wing-provocateurs-tried-to-infiltrate-CHAZ-CHOP-in-Seattle

    Michael Barnard, Chief Strategist, TFIE Strategy Inc.
    Answered June 14, 2020

    Not currently it seems.

    There’s a GoFundMe for a boogaloo boys armed ousting of the CHAZ protesters.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  164. “worried that their political careers might die if they took action” gives them far too much credit.

    All the qualities of Trump that you find so repellent, they are not actually opposed to.

    If Trump works to degrade American democracy, the vast majority of elected Republicans either do not particularly mind, or else they actively support it.

    If Trump attempts to make foreign governments do personal favours for him as a condition of receiving U.S. foreign aid, Republican senators, other than Mitt Romney, don’t actually have a problem with that.

    After four years of this, painting the behaviour of GOP politicians as merely craven self-interest is extending them the benefit of the doubt far past the point that they’ve shown they don’t deserve it. The truth is that those politicians are not just shaking in fear of primary challenges, but actually as malicious as Trump himself. They’re just less vulgar and more polished about it.

    Simon (eaf525)

  165. Pretty much, Simon.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  166. BLM activist egged on Capitol rioters

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/15/2021 @ 12:47 pm

    One swallow does not a summer make.

    Demosthenes (d7fc81)

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