Patterico's Pontifications

1/13/2021

Impeachment Redux: Open Thread; UPDATE: IMPEACHED, 232-197

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



As I write this, Rep. Mace, who had denounced Trump early on, has opposed impeachment on process grounds. A real disappointment. Meanwhile there is a suggestion that actual House members might have aided the insurrectionists’ plan:

One Congresswoman has claimed she saw members leading insurrectionists on a “reconnaissance” tour of the Capitol on January 5, the day before the insurrection.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I’d be cautious about this one. But if it’s true . . . oh my.

UPDATE: President Trump has been impeached a second time. The vote in the House was 231-197. Ten Republicans voted yes.

UPDATE: Seeing reports it was 232 yes votes. Updating the title.

285 Responses to “Impeachment Redux: Open Thread; UPDATE: IMPEACHED, 232-197”

  1. Given the number of legislators who attempted to avoid their constitutional duty on January 6, it’s difficult to imagine that the FBI has any material that should shock us at this point. However, I am reminded of Capt. Renault in “Casablanca.”

    John B Boddie (d795fd)

  2. I said it before, I’ll say it again. Not all is as it seems.

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  3. What exactly is the thing you have in mind which is not as it seems? Hmmmmmm? “Could it be …. Antifa?” (said in Dana Carvey church lady voice :))

    JRH (52aed3)

  4. I tried to post before, but it didn’t go through…

    I think that DJT’s superpower is to reveal what is inside of others, for good or for bad. For the latter, he seems to really encourage folks guilty of his own many sins to come out of the woodwork with jawdropping examples of hypocrisy and projection.

    In other people—thank God—his faults and excesses encourage statements of an ethical center and a rejection of hypocrisy. His Presidency has certainly made me ask myself what I believe, and why. And that if something is “bad” done by one politician, it is certainly “bad” when done by another. I have become very impatient with excuses of hypocrisy.

    Maybe this awful mess can create a force in the electorate with a central ethos.

    Mind you, spending a couple of decades demonizing opponents and being hypocritical about it, all fueled by a sociopathic media more interested in clicks and likes than fairness has made this horrible precipice possible. I mean, Biden praising Romney now and calling him a racist a few years ago (“…put y’all back in chains..“), or Harris calling Biden a racist, then joining his ticket.

    It’s all bumperstickers, with no memory, consistency, or basic honesty.

    Anyway, when you play this game, 24/7 through the media, you “demonize” your opponents. And if you truly believe they are Nazis or Communists, hell-bent on revolution…why, whatever you do can seem reasonable. Except very little of the first part of that statement is true.

    The Left, the Right, and the Media have really messed things up. I just hope that everyone remembers what my late father tried to teach me: the only just law or rule is one you don’t mind applied to you by your bitterest enemy.

    Stay safe, everyone. And think about your core values. I’m not sure anyone in DC does.

    Simon Jester (72e89c)

  5. A Colorado Republican tweeted about Pelosi’s location during the Capitol siege. She’s now facing calls to resign
    …….
    A first-term lawmaker who ran as an outspoken defender of President Trump — who incited the violent siege on Jan. 6 — (Colorado Representative Lauren) Boebert (R-Insurrectionist) is facing serious pushback for tweeting about the location of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi as lawmakers were whisked to a secure location to shelter in place while insurrectionists stormed the building.
    ……..
    During the violent siege, Boebert first tweeted that representatives “were locked in the House Chambers” and then only a minute later that the “Speaker has been removed from the chambers.”
    ……….
    In response to Boebert’s tweets, Hawaii Senator Brian Schatz said late Monday that lawmakers “were specifically instructed by those protecting us not to tell anyone, including our family, where exactly we were, for reasons that remain obvious.”

    Schatz, a Democrat, continued that it’s not explicitly clear “to what extent the rioters were coordinating operationally with government officials,” so it’s vital that lawmakers and others are “extremely careful in this line of inquiry.”

    “But we must discover which elected and appointed officials, if any, and which civil servants, were helping the coup,” Schatz added.
    …….
    Earlier that Wednesday morning, Boebert — along with Georgia Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene — called the day a “1776 moment” for Republicans.

    “Today is 1776,” Boebert tweeted.

    “America is depending on all of us today,” she said shortly after noon. “This is something I don’t take lightly. I will fight with everything I have to ensure the fairness of the election.”

    While on the floor, Boebert addressed Pelosi directly and said that she had “constituents outside this building right now.”
    …….
    California Representative Eric Swalwell compared Boebert to a criminal Monday and suggested that she refrain from making any further incendiary remarks.

    “Like any citizen who has committed a crime, Lauren Boebert has the right to remain silent,” he said. “I suggest that she use it.”

    As of Monday, more than 20,000 tweets had racked up with the hashtag #ResignBoebert.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  6. 74 million-plus voted for him. They are “you;” your creation; your GOP ‘Picture of Dorian Gray’– your coalitioned creation necessary to win, then discarded, ignored and shunted aside. And these ‘Buchanan pitchforkers’ are tired being peed on for 25 years and have it called trickle-down. Those 74-plus million aren’t going to disappear- and given the tallies from the last cycle, they likely will continue to grow.

    Impeach their current champion again, Nancy and crew simply create another badge for him t wear as a martyr. They’ll look for another to carry their banner forward. Hawley and Cruz are already trolling for the gig.

    And NONE of this “it’s-about-them-not-us theater” does nothing to address the immediate priority of getting Coivd vaccine out and $2000 emergency Covid aid into the pockets of desperate, locked down Americans.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  7. And NONE of this “it’s-about-them-not-us theater” does nothing to address the immediate priority of getting Coivd vaccine out and $2000 emergency Covid aid into the pockets of desperate, locked down Americans.

    DCSCA suddenly supports the Democratic agenda.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  8. Jonah on Liz Cheney:

    So, they don’t want to remove Trump from his position after he lied and incited a mob to steal an election. But they *do* want to remove Liz Cheney from her position for saying we should hold Trump accountable for the lies, incitement and attempted theft. Great messaging guys.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  9. 74 million-plus voted for him.

    They’ll get over it. Elections have consequences. So do insurrections.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  10. @7. Guess you haven’t seen the polls; common sense, it seems, is pretty much America’s priority. Unless, of course, you’re an “‘it’s about ‘them’ not ‘us'” backer.

    Don’t impeach the guy for suggesting WE drink bleach last year; rather, impeach the guy because THEIR offices were rattled one afternoon w/a week left in office. It’s about “THEM,” not “US.” We’re just a distant irritant.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  11. @9.No. The data suggests otherwise- for 25 years the pitchforkers have swelled in ranks and now have tasted power– and spilled blood. Seems you have it backwards again- you can’t get ‘over it’ – the party has swopped ends on you at the hands of your own creation.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  12. https://twitter.com/PMatzko/status/1349366763339849730

    …It was coordinated. This was not merely a crowd of protestors accidentally incited to storm the Capitol by the intemperance of the President & other speakers at the rally.

    Paul Matzko
    @PMatzko

    That’s my point.

    That’s why what is stated in the Article of Impeachment is fictional, and a president should not be impeached based on assertions that are not true.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  13. Jonah Goldberg is irrelevant. Liz Cheney, too. Best she chat w/Darth Daddy about his work supporting The Big Dick before espousing over-the-top-slams on the current POTUS.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  14. Distribution and implementation of a COVID-19 vaccine is an administrative problem, not a legislative problem. If Congress got involved it would only result in more, not less, disorganization. I didn’t see any insurrectionist banners saying “Give My Vaccine or Give Death!” In fact, I am sure most of the insurrectionists are anti-vaxxers. And why not give the public $20,000 or $200,000? It would have more of an impact.

    The insurrection had nothing to do with these two issues.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  15. Hit submit too soon.

    I think not removing Trump ahead of 1/20 is a mistake.
    I think this will be perceived by the public of supporting Trump.
    I think this will be cause most GOP senators will vote not to impeach and claim that it’s moot.
    I expect that McConnel will use this as a way to slow down Senate business and Biden’s agenda.

    Time123 (80b471)

  16. Nw I know t may be hard to determine very quickly if Donald J. Trump expected any of the violent events of Wednesday January 6, 2020 to happen, orif he wanted to force Congress to recess before it could complete the counting of the Electoral votes, but you don;t need that ti impeach and convict him and debar him from future office.

    It’s enough that he claimed unjustifiably without ever retracting it, that the election resulta were the product of widespread fraud, and he kept on lobbying all kinds of officeholders to do things they were not entitled to do. It went on for too long and it went too far. It’s got to be declared that he has no business in public life.

    And if the House Democratic leadership really wants this work, as opposed to posturing and creating more Democratic Party talking points and arguments to be used in fund raising appeals, they should negotiate the text of the impeachment resolution with Senate Majority (for now) Leader Mitch McConnnell, or House Republicans in contact with him, and Mitch McConnell will see to it that the resolution gets some 90 votes in the Senate on January 21. It should be a deal in which President Joe Bidden agrees to pardon Donald Trump from all but the most serious offenses (even if Trump pardons himself, there could be some real doubts about that) with the pardon being issued just before the Senate votes on conviction and on punishment.

    There is also a claim that you can’t impeach any officeholder after he’s left office, but it could be claimed that Trump would still hold the office of ex-president, which is a thing, or Biden could name him to some panel

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  17. It should be a deal in which President Joe Bidden agrees to pardon Donald Trump

    Comedy gold!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  18. Jonah Goldberg is irrelevant. Liz Cheney, too.

    DCSCA, you have accused Mitt Romney and David French of being irrelevant as well. But given that those you have deemed irrelevant consistently honest brokers who are willing to take the heat for doing what is right is very revealing about you. And not in a good way.

    Dana (cc9481)

  19. 4. Simon Jester (72e89c) — 1/13/2021 @ 9:48 am

    . I mean, Biden praising Romney now and calling him a racist a few years ago (“…put y’all back in chains..“), or Harris calling Biden a racist, then joining his ticket.

    and don’t forget Mike Pence:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/opinion/trump-republicans-impeachment.html

    n December 2015, then-Governor Pence tweeted, “Calls to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. are offensive and unconstitutional.” In April 2016, Tim Alberta reported that Pence “loathes Trump, according to longtime friends.” In July of the same year, Republican strategist Dan Senor tweeted, “It’s disorienting to have had commiserated w/someone re: Trump — about how he was unacceptable, & then to see that someone become Trump’s VP.”

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  20. irelevant. Liz Cheney, too. Best she chat w/Darth Daddy about his work supporting The Big Dick

    Nah, I don’t think Nixon’s behavior was remotely as overtly awful as Trump’s, so folks who worked with him before Watergate don’t have this shame that extends to their kids. That’s just your need to minimize Trump’s severe evil in contrast to the past. Trump bragged he sexually assaulted women and liked the Tienanmen Square massacre, he refused to support the Capitol when it was attacked, directly betraying his oath in hopes he could overturn an election he was caught red handed cheating at.

    Liz Cheney may indeed wind up losing power, but she’s reading the future as an effort to distance from Trump, and she’s made a loud, risky effort to do so earlier (not early enough in my opinion, but I’ll take it).

    There’s a reason the Arlen Specters and John Mccain ‘squishes’ make folks so mad. It’s because riding the middle like that is a source of great relevance, perhaps an insincere one. It’s not because these folks aren’t relevant.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  21. @19. Not really; they’re attempting to regain control w/an establishment position which has been soundly rejected by 74-plus million in their own party- a ‘raging hoard’ festering and simmering since the days of pitchforker Pat Buchanan– that they created, used, then betrayed and discarded over decades as a means to an end simply to win cycles. Now they lost control over them and are stuck in the tail which, to their frustration, no longer wags that dog.

    This populism has been has been long in coming– and finally boiled over. They’ve tasted power, spilled bood- an aren’t going to just disappear. Hawley and Cruz are already courting them for 2024.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  22. @21. Except it was, Dustin.

    Listen to the Big Dick’s tapes.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  23. A Defense official told CBS News that the threat level at the Capitol is “very high” right now – “higher than has been reported”. David Martin reports approx. 2,000 National Guard at the Capitol right now and they are authorized to carry arms.

    LINK

    There are members of the United States Congress who are afraid to vote to impeach Trump due to concerns about their families’ safety.

    This is how terrorism works, folks! This is a textbook example of terrorists succeeding with efforts to coerce decision makers in a government.

    Michael S. Smith

    Who could have predicted that it would be a bad idea to put a psychopath in the presidency, encourage a fanatical cult of personality to grow around him, accuse his critics of being Deep State traitors, then tell the fanatics that an election was stolen from the one personal standing between them and tyranny and that they would lose their country if he wasn’t kept in office by any means necessary?

    Radegunda (20775b)

  24. There’s a reason the Arlen Specters and John Mccain ‘squishes’ make folks so mad.

    Some of the people I had seen has squishes have come to look a lot more courageous over past few years.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  25. Listen to the Big Dick’s tapes.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/13/2021 @ 11:09 am

    I didn’t say he was a great guy. I’m comparing him to Trump, the guy who said the Tienanmen Square Massacre was super cool, he can sexually assault any woman he wants, he will hide concentration camps, he demands a specific number of votes or else, and it’s time to fight against congress, etc etc.

    Nixon was more LBJ grade. A cheater, a liar, a manipulator of policy for election stability, etc.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  26. This is how terrorism works, folks! This is a textbook example of terrorists succeeding with efforts to coerce decision makers in a government.

    Trump’s rally speech on Jan. 6 was a clear case of trying to “coerce decision makers in a government.” It was an act of terrorism.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  27. Liz Cheney may indeed wind up losing power, but she’s reading the future as an effort to distance from Trump, and she’s made a loud, risky effort to do so earlier (not early enough in my opinion, but I’ll take it).

    Cheney is risking more than others with her vote to impeach. Already Trump-loyal R’s are calling for her to be ousted from her leadership position for following her conscience and doing what she believes is right. Today’s Republican Party doesn’t admire doing the right thing, answering to one’s conscience, or following the Constitution. Instead, the Party embraces those that answer the call to fealty and unquestioning loyalty to its leader. Anything other than that is deemed unpatriotic and anti-American. What a childish yet dangerous system Trump has put in place and which too many have dumbly and willingly followed. But sure, let’s punish Liz Cheney for doing what is right, no matter the potential risk to her political future.

    Dana (cc9481)

  28. This populism has been has been long in coming– and finally boiled over. They’ve tasted power, spilled bood- an aren’t going to just disappear. Hawley and Cruz are already courting them for 2024.

    I confess I haven’t been following along long enough to really understand where you’re coming from with takes like this, but you seem to attribute–and please correct me if I’m wrong as I’m genuinely trying to understand your positions here–populism to things like Reagonomics not working (I think I’ve read that in past comments). So decades later the people are mad that it hasn’t worked and lined up behind a populist like Trump, and that anger isn’t going away soon. Is that why people like Romney et al. are irrelevant in your view? They’re trying to close the barn door after the horse has left?

    I have follow-ups if that’s even close to correct.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  29. History rhymes; Dana, what did Pierre Delecto’s daddy do in 1964 when the party swopped ends on him and went w/Goldwater? There’s a lesson to learn.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  30. What a childish yet dangerous system Trump has put in place and which too many have dumbly and willingly followed. But sure, let’s punish Liz Cheney for doing what is right, no matter the potential risk to her political future.

    Dana (cc9481) — 1/13/2021 @ 11:19 am

    Yeah they all know this is wrong. Every one of them. But it’s a chance to Ted Cruz it, to get to the front of the Trump Train and purify the party.

    As an example of childishness, imagine all those republican congresspersons refusing to stop at the metal detectors, including that one who brags she’s carrying a gun. Just refusing to help the capitol police do their jobs, making their life less safe and putting them in a position of having to detain a Member or let them go in with weapons. Those guys have to bury a couple of friends, one of whom was beaten to death. All these reps will say blue lives matter while disrespecting any peasant cop who wants them to follow the rules.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  31. Cheney is risking more than others with her vote to impeach.

    A week before her party’s president leaves office? Doubtful. Reports are she conferred w/Darth Daddy before she issued her POV anyway. A rep for the few voters in Red Wyoming risks little and primarying her will be expensive in there.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  32. @26. No. He was a crook. Listen to the tapes.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  33. All these reps will say blue lives matter while disrespecting any peasant cop who wants them to follow the rules.

    Relatedly, I bet many if not most believe that a lot of police encounters go poorly because the citizen simply won’t follow the cop’s orders.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  34. 29. From Kevin’s post on another thread.

    “They’re voting based on cultural grievance.

    CHARLES MURRAY, American Enterprise Institute:

    “Trumpism” is the expression by the white working class of a lot of legitimate grievances that it has with the ruling class.

    Everything from the cultural disdain that the ruling class holds the working class in, to the loss of all kinds of manufacturing jobs, the importation of low-skilled labor, all the ways in which, if you’re a member of the working class, you have over the last 30 or 40 years been screwed.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/why-economic-anxiety-is-driving-working-class-voters-to-trumpism

    A fuller exposition at the WSJ, but but may be behind a paywall.

    Work and marriage have been central to American civic culture since the founding, and this held true for the white working class into the 1960s. Almost all of the adult men were working or looking for work, and almost all of them were married.

    Then things started to change. For white working-class men in their 30s and 40s—what should be the prime decades for working and raising a family—participation in the labor force dropped from 96% in 1968 to 79% in 2015. Over that same period, the portion of these men who were married dropped from 86% to 52%. (The numbers for nonwhite working-class males show declines as well, though not as steep and not as continuous.)

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-america-1455290458
    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:52 am”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  35. @26. No. He was a crook. Listen to the tapes.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/13/2021 @ 11:32 am

    I want to you piece together your argument that Richard Nixon is personally a crook (an argument I probably agree with). Now you understand why Trump beat a cop to death.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  36. Belated of course…

    President Trump asked Fox News to publish the following short comment:

    “In light of reports of more demonstrations, I urge that there must be NO violence, NO lawbreaking and NO vandalism of any kind.

    That is not what I stand for and it is not what America stands for. I call on ALL Americans to help ease tensions and calm tempers.

    Thank You.”

    Now, he needs to keep saying things like that. Not holding my breath…

    whembly (4c6c6d)

  37. Today’s Republican Party doesn’t admire doing the right thing,

    Trump-boosters openly took the position that character, integrity and decency are not only irrelevant to good governance, but detrimental to “winning” and “getting things done.” They have turned the GOP into a reflection of Trump’s own selfishness and cynical opportunism. And they’re saying it’s all for the sake of a righteous battle against the forces of evil.

    Now, most of those who actually knew that Trump was not the unique savior of America are afraid to stand up against the monster they built.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  38. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/13/2021 @ 11:36 am

    I’m not sure that I follow. Supposing that the list of reasons as to why voters may be voting for Trump might explain the support he enjoys–not sure I buy it but I’ll go with it–do you think that somehow excuses everything that happens?

    I can’t quite tell if you’re justifying (or, at least, minimizing) what rioters do in tandem with your belief that they’re voting this way, or what.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  39. Now, he needs to keep saying things like that. Not holding my breath…

    I agree, and hopefully he won’t undermine it the second he’s in front of a camera and gives a statement.

    I’m also pretty sure he’s doing this out of pure self-interest and not because it’s the right thing to do, but I’ll take it either way.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  40. @37. I want you to listen to the tapes.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  41. @41. If you “don’t buy it” – then you’re ignoring the data. It is what it is; 1 + 1= 2, not 11.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)


  42. In light of reports of more demonstrations, I urge that there must be NO violence, NO lawbreaking and NO vandalism of any kind.

    That is not what I stand for and it is not what America stands for. I call on ALL Americans to help ease tensions and calm tempers.

    Thank You.”

    Now, he needs to keep saying things like that. Not holding my breath…

    LOL! You think Trump means it? He thrives on chaos-it’s exactly what he stands for. Every televised speech he gives on the subject is the opposite of what he believes. He sounds like a hostage being forced to read a confession.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  43. 1968 Washington, D.C., riots:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Washington,_D.C.,_riots

    ‘The Washington, D.C., riots of 1968 were a four-day period of violent civil unrest and rioting following the assassination of leading African American civil rights activist Martin Luther King Jr., on April 4, 1968. Part of the broader King-assassination riots that affected at least 110 U.S. cities, those in Washington, D.C.—along with those in Chicago and Baltimore—were among those with the greatest numbers of participants.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  44. DCSCA, you have accused Mitt Romney and David French of being irrelevant as well. But given that those you have deemed irrelevant consistently honest brokers who are willing to take the heat for doing what is right is very revealing about you. And not in a good way.

    It doesn’t matter, Dana. Like he told AJ and me in another thread, DCSCA will tell you that you don’t get it. It must be beyond us mere non-Buchananites to comprehend DCSCA’s brilliance. Personally, I think phrases like “you don’t understand” and the like breaches the commenting rules because it’s a personal insult, but that’s just me.

    Paul Montagu (791990)

  45. Feb. 9, 2020: Schlapp: Romney Wouldn’t Be “Physically Safe” At CPAC

    To Trumpers, that was a good thing.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  46. LOL! You think Trump means it?

    Here are the rules:

    1. Trump says a lot of wacky, hateful, demagogic stuff that he absolutely does not mean, and you’re a hater if you think he does.
    2. Trump occasionally reads a prepared statement that sounds reasonable, and then you can be sure he sincerely means it.

    Another rule:
    3. If Trump says “peacefully” once in a speech and “fight” twenty times, including an exhortation to “fight like hell” with “strength,” he absolutely does not want anyone “fight.” He’s telling people to “work hard, peacefully.”

    Go it?

    Radegunda (20775b)

  47. @49

    Also, if the day after reading the prepared statement he does a 180 and doubles down on the inciteful demagoguery, it’s the brief, mature interlude that controls.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  48. I think not removing Trump ahead of 1/20 is a mistake.

    I thought he should be impeached when he tried to get state legislatures to ignore their state’s voters and everything since has been the poisoned fruit of the same tree. He should be out by now.

    I think this will be perceived by the public of supporting Trump.

    I think that the Senate may reconsider, or at least out those who object to starting early. They are going to come under a great deal of pressure starting tonight.

    I think this will be cause most GOP senators will vote not to impeach and claim that it’s moot.

    That could be. On the other hand, they need to be rid of Trump and a clean break is the best break. They may also claim it’s so important that they cannot focus on other business until it’s settled.

    I expect that McConnell will use this as a way to slow down Senate business and Biden’s agenda.

    He cannot do that and claim it is moot at the same time. OK, he can he sounds stupid doing it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  49. It should be a deal in which President Joe Bidden agrees to pardon Donald Trump

    No, I’d try him and convict him, then suspend the sentence so long as he retires to the countryside and keeps his trap shut.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  50. My reductive litmus test for your impeachment takes. If:

    You supported impeaching Clinton and you support impeaching Trump; or
    You opposed impeaching Clinton and you oppose impeaching Trump; or
    You opposed impeaching Clinton and you support impeaching Trump.

    — You may be a serious person. More data required.

    You supported impeaching Clinton and you oppose impeaching Trump.

    — You aren’t a serious person.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  51. @47. Nice try.

    The data is there. This didn’t start w/Trump. You’ve ignored it or denied it- but used them- at your own peril- and now it has swopped ends on you.

    My POV has remained consistent; neutering the modern ideological conservative movement. 74-plus million shoved– and it collapsed like a hollow house of cards.

    “Cassius was right: the fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves. Good night, and good luck.” – Edward R. Murrow, See It Now’ CBS News, 3/9/54

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  52. The odds on the vote in the Senate is going to be bimodal. Few Republicans will want to be the only votes to convict, but if they are going to convict, few will want to be voting for acquittal.

    I think anything is possible except a close vote.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  53. @55. If by the rules any can vote ‘present’ they will.

    Cruz could; Canadians are notoriously polite. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  54. LOL! You think Trump means it?

    If Trump really means he wants calm, it’s because he calculates that going down in history as the man who shredded the Republic might be worse than being known as the loser of an election.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  55. I expect that McConnell will use this as a way to slow down Senate business and Biden’s agenda.

    He cannot do that and claim it is moot at the same time. OK, he can he sounds stupid doing it.

    Sure he can, slow walk everything and then vote not to impeach because, while you looked at the details, it’s moot at this point.

    Time123 (80b471)

  56. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/13/2021 @ 9:48 am

    California Representative Eric Swalwell compared Boebert to a criminal Monday …

    “Like any citizen who has committed a crime …”

    I love it when the article lies right away. He didn’t compare her to a criminal, he said she was a criminal. And technically, everyone has a right to remain silent but I don’t expect Swalwell to understand the distinction.

    This one is at least clever enough to phrase it as “for tweeting about the location” when they really want you to infer “for tweeting the location”.

    frosty (f27e97)

  57. @58

    I expect that McConnell will use this as a way to slow down Senate business and Biden’s agenda.

    He cannot do that and claim it is moot at the same time. OK, he can he sounds stupid doing it.

    Sure he can, slow walk everything and then vote not to impeach because, while you looked at the details, it’s moot at this point.

    Time123 (80b471) — 1/13/2021 @ 12:44 pm

    Yup. Remember, this was a guy who refused to have a hearing for Merrick Garland when Obama nominated him for SCOTUS. Mitch will use this opportunity to slow-walk the process in the Senate just to burn up the hours to slow down the Biden Administration’s first 100 days.

    You’ll know this EXACTLY, if any GOPers talks about having witnesses testify at the hearing in the Senate (they didn’t do that for the 1st impeachment).

    whembly (4c6c6d)

  58. Downtown DC is a ghost town. Pretty tight security perimeter already and probably will only get tighter as we get closer to the inauguration.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  59. The hypocrisy never ceases. You know, Congress should have had standing, fill-in-the-blank- legislation to censure Trump at least once a month since Helsinki.

    Never happened; no guts.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  60. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/13/2021 @ 11:13 am

    he will hide concentration camps

    Do you have a link for that?

    frosty (f27e97)

  61. My POV has remained consistent; neutering the modern ideological conservative movement.

    Um, yes, I agree that you’ve alluded something like that, and be assured that it sunk in well before the 9000th time you’ve blurted something out.
    Your standard-bearer, the very vehicle of Buchananism, is going to go down as the worst president in American history, and it’s not going to be close. The true believers will go on with their true-believing, but most of the other 74 million are going to figure out ways to excuse their bad voting decision or pretend that they never really supported him in the first place.

    Paul Montagu (791990)

  62. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/13/2021 @ 11:40 am

    D’s openly took the position that character, integrity and decency are not only irrelevant to good governance, but detrimental to “winning” and “getting things done.” They have turned the party into one of selfishness and cynical opportunism. And they’re saying it’s all for the sake of a righteous battle against the forces of evil.

    Yes, both are bad.

    Now, most of those who were willing to do anything to get rid of Trump have no idea the damage they’ve done.

    Any other suggestions or are you thinking this will all settle down then Trump’s gone and we get a consistent message on all media platforms?

    frosty (f27e97)

  63. Paul Montagu (791990) — 1/13/2021 @ 12:06 pm

    Personally, I think phrases like “you don’t understand” and the like breaches the commenting rules because it’s a personal insult, but that’s just me.

    Not piling on to DCSCA but I’d extend this to things like “obviously”, “anyone can see”, etc. when they’re used to imply something like the person on the other side of the argument is stupid, dishonest, etc. “You aren’t seriously implying ” also falls into this category.

    But those are the codewords some commenters use for the express purpose of sliding around the rules about personal insults. If those were inforced it would put a damper on several of the more frequent commenters.

    frosty (f27e97)

  64. You really don’t get it, frosty.

    Paul Montagu (576226)

  65. But those are the codewords some commenters use for the express purpose of sliding around the rules about personal insults. If those were inforced it would put a damper on several of the more frequent commenters.

    Clutching at pearls instead of the teddy bears you said I was holding on to, eh?

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  66. @64. Not alluded; stated repeatedly.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  67. (I kid, I kid.)

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  68. @64. My standard-bearer???? ROFLMAO I’m not registered Republican. He’s your standard-bearer, not mine.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  69. Do you have a link for that?

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/13/2021 @ 12:53 pm

    I do

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/17/bolton-says-trump-didnt-just-ignore-human-rights-encouraged-chinas-concentration-camps/

    See how easy it is to discuss in good faith?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  70. but most of the other 74 million are going to figure out ways to excuse their bad voting decision or pretend that they never really supported him in the first place.

    The data does not indicate that; if it did, after the past four years, voter tallies would have declined for him. But they did not. It’s a mistake to get hung upon his persona. ‘Folks’ held their noses and voted in support of various policies, not personality. That he was a good show didn’t hurt, though. Buchanan, Perot, Palin, Trump. The pattern is there w/t data.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  71. @64. My standard-bearer???? ROFLMAO I’m not registered Republican. He’s your standard-bearer, not mine.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/13/2021 @ 1:14 pm

    You voted for Trump. It’s weird for folks who voted Trump to blame folks who didn’t. Trump’s no more a republican than you are. As you’ve mentioned a lot, Trump is happy to destroy the GOP for some ‘glorious’ reason.

    ; if it did, after the past four years, voter tallies would have declined for him.

    I grant there’s some truth here, but it’s more complicated for two reasons: the population increased and voter turnout is much higher when people are miserable. 2020 was a miserable year, so the losing side got more votes than usual. The winning side got even more votes. So this is a strained point. Trump got a lot of voters, far more than he should have if his critics like me are right, but don’t stretch it too far.

    If you do, remember how well Reagan did in elections.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  72. The senators will vote to convict if their constituents demand it. And not, if not. In Nixon’s case, his “doing a good job” numbers had fallen from the 60s to the 20s and it wasn;t hard to see how it would go.

    Trump’s numbers in the coming week will be telling.

    Since mid-December, the RCP average approval numbers were pretty constant through Jan 5th, with Trump down 9-10 points. Starting on the 6th, the gap has been spreading at about a point a day, Last at -17 on the 12th. If this continues, he’s toast.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  73. voter turnout is much higher when …

    the state makes it almost impossible for you not to vote.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  74. @67. Your argument should be w/AEI’s conservative Charles Murray.

    He nails it:

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/why-economic-anxiety-is-driving-working-class-voters-to-trumpism

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  75. I’m genuinely curious why anyone would think it’s possible to have a sensible conversation with a fount of addled cant like Deezy-Eska.

    Dave (1bb933)

  76. Paul Montagu (576226) — 1/13/2021 @ 1:10 pm

    You really don’t get it, frosty.

    I’m sure of that. But I also don’t have a problem being insulted.

    frosty (f27e97)

  77. @74. As Dick Cheney said, “So?” Steadfastly refused to vote for a known plagiarist. Have caught’em while at CBS. Which only adds to my disappointment in the current generation of young teleprompter readers who gave him a pass on something they’d all likely be fired for doing themselves.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  78. On C-SPAN it looks like the time for voting has expired but someone is claiming the vote is not final yet. Ready to update the post but want to make sure it’s official that the impeachment has happened.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  79. UPDATE: President Trump has been impeached a second time. The vote in the House was 231-197. Ten Republicans voted yes.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  80. CNN says impeached

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  81. They still have a few days to impeach him a third time.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. @75. Kevin:

    Wednesday, January 13

    President Trump Job Approval: Rasmussen Reports Approve 46, Disapprove 53 Disapprove +7
    President Trump Job Approval: Economist/YouGov Approve 41, Disapprove 55 Disapprove +14
    Congressional Job Approval: Economist/YouGov Approve 13, Disapprove 62 Disapprove +49
    Direction of Country: Economist/YouGov Right Direction 12, Wrong Track 76 Wrong Track +64

    source- https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/#!

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  83. In the photo at the top, I wonder what the Founders in those paintings would think if they could see that crowd.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  84. Another martyred badge of honor.

    Should be interesting to hear the CSPAN callers.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  85. @84. ROFLMAOPIP

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  86. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/13/2021 @ 1:16 pm

    I can’t open the link because I don’t subscribe but it looks like the headline is “Bolton says … encouraged” and I found another link for the “encouraged” idea based on comments from an interpreter. Reading the larger context it sounds like Bolton’s allegations revolve primarily around Trump not doing enough to punish China for the camps.

    That doesn’t seem like

    Dustin (4237e0) — 1/13/2021 @ 11:13 am
    he will hide concentration camps

    I think the camps in China are reasonably well known and Trump hasn’t done anything to hide them.

    See how easy it is to discuss in good faith?

    I’m not sure this is the best example.

    frosty (f27e97)

  87. I can’t open the link because I don’t want to

    try incognito mode

    Dustin (4237e0)

  88. ” Steadfastly refused to vote for a known plagiarist.

    My friend, you’re saying some Trump votes are from folks who really do not support him, but refused to vote for his opponent?

    So what’s that mean to your point that Trump’s vote totals are a resurgence of Buchanan racism? I’m not sure you’re wrong. I think you’re pointing to a real problem that is really big, but I think the two party system makes things complicated. Too many binary choice votes. Too many bad outcomes.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  89. DCSCA, I said the AVERAGE, which you can go look at if you want to comment. His average disapproval/approval has gone from 53/44 to 57/40, now a 17 point gap. The last 7 days graph is a straight line down, after being flat for a month.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  90. TrumpWorld’s newest enemies list:

    Rep. Dan Newhouse of Washington
    Rep. John Katko of New York
    Rep. Jaime Herrera Beutler of Washington
    Rep. Adam Kinzinger of Illinois
    Rep. Fred Upton of Michigan
    Rep. Liz Cheney of Wyoming
    Rep. Peter Meijer of Michigan
    Rep. Anthony Gonzalez of Ohio
    Rep. Tom Rice of South Carolina
    Rep. David Valadao of California

    Dave (1bb933)

  91. I’m genuinely curious why anyone would think it’s possible to have a sensible conversation with a fount of addled cant like Deezy-Eska.

    I was ignoring it for awhile, and I’m ready to go back to “ignore” mode.

    Paul Montagu (ed68a5)

  92. Steadfastly refused to vote for a known plagiarist.

    For Trump to commit plagiarism would be a vast improvement in his normal behavior.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  93. Liz Cheney faces backlash from some GOP lawmakers after backing Trump impeachment
    …….
    “I don’t think she should be the chair of the Republican conference anymore,” Rep. Andy Biggs (R-Insurrectionist), the head of the House Freedom Caucus, told Fox News host Shannon Bream. “The reality is she’s not representing the conference; she’s not representing the Republican ideals.”
    ……
    Really, Republican ideals including leading an insurrection against the Constitution? Biggs is one of the Congress Members who allegedly lead reconnaissance tours of the Capitol.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  94. Four Congresspeople didn’t vote at all (plus the two open seats — one from a post-election death, one because the election result hasn’t been certified yet).

    Those four congresspeople should resign in shame, today.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  95. Graham leads resistence to Trump impeachment. Last week he was ‘done with him.’

    When Washington dinner theatre starts casting for the part of Captain Renault in a ‘Casablanca’ revival, Lindsey’s the go-to guy.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  96. Rep. David Valadao of California

    Here’s a man who won by about 6 votes in a non-urban district. This took balls.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  97. @95. This is true- but given all his words, he never has- as far as we know. He creates quotes- he don’t have to steal them. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  98. Those four congresspeople should resign in shame, today.

    Most of Congress was at home on Monday. Not everyone can get to DC in a day.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  99. Trump would have no idea if he stole a quote. He’d probably just deny saying it, even after being shown a tape.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  100. Regardless if the Senate convicts Trump, he’s still the only President to have been impeached TWICE.

    Outside of the True-Believer Trumpers, this will be his albatross politically.

    whembly (c30c83)

  101. Kevin M – proxy voting was allowed on this, and was clearly used by the democratic congressperson who has been hospitalized for covid. the four who didn’t vote could have voted by proxy.

    they chose not to because they didn’t want to be on the record one way or another. cowards.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  102. @92.Understood, Kevin. No dog in that fight. Just surprising numbers for ‘now’ given current events. The Congressional approval # was dismal. Their priorities are so screwed up.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  103. BTW, there’s a NM Congresswoman (I’m just outside her district) who voted with the 140, and doubled down this morning. I will be giving money and time to anyone running against her in the primary.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  104. they chose not to because they didn’t want to be on the record one way or another. cowards

    Four of these five were democrats. Why would they care?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  105. For that matter, Valadao hasn’t been in Washington yet this year, as he’s quarantining at home after getting a COVID diagnosis. He also voted by proxy.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  106. Oh, sorry. I misread. 4 out of four Republicans.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  107. Not true. All four nonvoting Congresspeople were Republicans. The chamber is split 222-211 with two vacancies. 222 Democrats voted yes. 10 Republicans voted yes. 197 Republicans voted no. 4 Republicans did not vote.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  108. @91. This isn’t bout race, Dustin; it’s economics and class. Go watch that piece Kevin posted from PBS w/ AEI’s Charles Murray. He nails it. It’s been building to a boil for 25 years.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  109. @110, yea, see 109

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  110. frosty, @65, why are you “quoting” me with words other than my own?

    In the recent past, at least, it’s Trumpers who have most explicitly scorned the idea that character and integrity are important attributes of leadership. They have ridiculed those who say that character still matters, painting such people as Deep State hacks and grifters and traitors. They have done so to support a psychopath in the presidency.

    Dems have tried to remove the psychopath by institutional processes. There was no impeachment effort until three years into his term, and impeachment would have put Mike Pence in the presidency. Then there was an election, which Trump and his minions refuse to acknowledge.

    Trumpers have tried to keep him in power by intimidating officials and legislators into throwing out the votes of citizens. Their intimidation tactics include violence.

    Emerging information shows that Trumpers who stormed the Capitol may have gotten help from GOP legislators. It also reveals that Trumpers had plans for more violence than they were able to pull off, this time. It’s also evident that Trumpers are planning more violence in the days ahead.

    Next time Democrats try to start a civil war to install the losing presidential candidate, the both-sidesing will have some weight. Now it’s just an evasion.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  111. Kevin at 112: fair enough. we were typing simultaneously :)

    aphrael (4c4719)

  112. If there is evidence that legislators assisted in the attack on the Capitol, they must be expelled.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  113. For Trump to commit plagiarism would be a vast improvement in his normal behavior.

    First he’d have to learn to read.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  114. I will be giving money and time to anyone running against her in the primary.

    Giving money to a politician… ROFLMAO.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  115. “I wonder what the Founders in those paintings would think if they could see that crowd.”

    All of the historical evidence indicates: “Happy and hopeful thoughts, mostly.” Congress has routinely done tar, feathers, and noose-deserving things as a collective for the centuries since they lived, and certainly when they openly kneeled in support of BLM during riots that they tolerated and encouraged even in their hometown as long as the flames didn’t reach their ‘sacred temple of democracy’!

    This impeachment was done specifically for the emotional benefit of C-Span and other process junkies who were most offended by the Great Enhanced Capitol Sit-in. America’s regularly scheduled wacky shenanigans will commence momentarily.

    “Given that those you have deemed irrelevant consistently honest brokers who are willing to take the heat for doing what is right is very revealing about you. And not in a good way.”

    You can be a very moral or a very immoral irrelevant person. Popularity is not a value judgment except in the context of what’s popular at the time. Every Congressman has to win at least one popularity contest, for example.

    Enhanced Sit-in (cf7b37)

  116. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/13/2021 @ 1:45 pm

    I can’t open the link because I don’t want to

    try incognito mode

    Why would I if I can google it and find the same article on sites that don’t require it? If I went to the trouble of looking up another link how would that imply I’m still acting in bad faith?

    Are you suggesting this link directly supports your “hide” assertion and that I’m refusing to look at it?

    Assuming that is the case I did as you suggested. No indication that he “hid” the camps in that article. In fact

    The White House announced shortly after the news broke Wednesday that Trump had signed the Uighur Human Rights Policy Act of 2020.

    The initial text of the bill includes:

    This bill imposes sanctions on foreign individuals and entities responsible for human rights abuses in China’s Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous region and requires various reports on the topic.

    Ignoring that the bill itself was public, the bill requires reporting on abuses in China. I think this is the opposite of “hide”.

    So, a couple of options:
    * Do you have a link that supports your assertion that “he will hide concentration camps”?

    * Do you want to conclude this sub-thread after posting a link that doesn’t do what you claim it does and accusing me of acting in bad faith?

    * Reconsider your “he will hide concentration camps” assertion?

    frosty (f27e97)

  117. The GOP tally is, out of 211 House members, 131 are fascists, 10 were brave enough to buck Trump and all his sycophants, and 70 are cowards who kept their heads down and rationalized his staying in office without further penalty.
    I hate my party more today than yesterday.

    Paul Montagu (ed68a5)

  118. . This isn’t bout race, Dustin; it’s economics and class

    I do think those things kinda overlap, and at least open up a lot of ways for politicians to exploit poor whites.

    Yeah those guys with ARs and flying to DC with their PTO are definitely oppressed.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  119. If there is evidence that legislators assisted in the attack on the Capitol, they must be expelled.

    You misspelled “indicted for treason.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  120. Trump’s Grip on 2024 GOP Primary Field Slips in Wake of Capitol Insurrection
    …….
    Forty-two percent of GOP voters said in a new Morning Consult/Politico survey that they would vote for Trump if the 2024 Republican presidential primary were held today, down 12 percentage points from a Nov. 21-23 poll. The latest poll was conducted Jan. 8-11 among 595 Republican voters, with a 4-point margin of error.

    The decline in backing dovetails with another finding in the survey that could signal diminished intraparty clout during Trump’s post-presidency period: Trump’s job approval among GOP voters, at 75 percent, is the lowest share of support in Morning Consult/Politico polling since August 2017, when 73 percent approved. Trump’s approval rating of 34 percent among all voters also represents his worst review from the electorate in Morning Consult/Politico surveys conducted during his presidency.
    …….
    Support for Vice President Mike Pence has ticked up by 4 points since November while Sens. Mitt Romney of Utah and Ted Cruz of Texas saw respective 3- and 2-point increases during that time period. Nikki Haley, the former two-term governor of South Carolina and United Nations ambassador, polled at 5 percent, up 1 point since November.

    Sen. Josh Hawley of Missouri, who along with Cruz led the effort on the Senate side of the Capitol to reject the Electoral College vote tallies certifying President-elect Joe Biden’s victory, was the first choice for just 1 percent of GOP voters, unchanged from the poll conducted late last year. He finds himself near the bottom of the field, along with the following potential candidates: Sens. Tim Scott of South Carolina and Marco Rubio of Florida and Gov. Kristi Noem of South Dakota, at 2 percent each; Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Sen. Tom Cotton of Arkansas at 1 percent; and Sen. Rick Scott of Florida and Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan, at 0 percent.

    Donald Trump Jr. — who along with his father was among the Republican Party’s loudest messengers for allegations of electoral impropriety since the Nov. 3 elections — also saw his support drop, from 8 percent to 6 percent.
    ……
    More numbers from the poll:

    Right Track/Wrong Track
    Registered Voters 18%/82%

    Trump Approval:
    Strongly/Somewhat Approve 34%
    Strongly/Somewhat Disapprove: 63%

    Top Issues:
    Economic Issues (taxes, wages, jobs, unemployment, and spending)-34%
    Health Care (ACA, Medicaid)-16%
    Security Issues (terrorism, foreign policy, border security)-12%

    Approve or disapprove of the Senate convicting President Trump and removing him from office?
    Strongly/Somewhat Approve 54%
    Strongly/Somewhat Dispprove 39

    Favorability for Joe Biden
    Favorable 55%
    Unfavorable 41%

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  121. @121. No, they don’t. Watch the Murray piece. He really nails it. But if race is a hook for you, the plagiarist-elect is a blatant old school racist. Start at a 7-11 then move quickly to his Covid assistance roll out plan.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  122. I wonder how long the Trump brand will be a brand.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  123. It’s not about race, except as that might attach to affirmative action, but that’s a minor minor thing compared to capital going to China and cut-rate competition from Mexico.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  124. @125. Revisit 1990.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  125. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/13/2021 @ 2:02 pm

    why are you “quoting” me with words other than my own

    I’m not. The formatting options on the blog are limited.

    I’m trying to make the point that this is more than a problem with Trump by putting your complaint in another context. There is a very serious short-sighted single-mindedness going on generally. Your response is just an example.

    Next time Democrats try to start a civil war to install the losing presidential candidate, the both-sidesing will have some weight. Now it’s just an evasion.

    Translates into; unless the D’s do exactly this same bad thing I don’t want to even think about anything other than Trump. This is the “but the other side is worse” argument. Both sides are bad and debating over which is worse is part of the problem.

    frosty (f27e97)

  126. Jonathan Last has a good piece, taking those who believe Trump’s Big Lie to its logical conclusion.

    And if this lie remains in American politics, there will be no peace or comity.

    Think about it from the perspective of the person who believes the lie: They have been told by the president of the United States that the election was fraudulent. The vast majority of the president’s party has testified to the truth of this story. The only reasonable conclusion of this tale is that America is currently undergoing a coup. That the incoming government is not only illegitimate, but is an occupying, authoritarian force.

    If you believe that—if you really, truly believe it—then how could you acquiesce in anything that is happening? How could you pay taxes? Why would you obey laws? Why wouldn’t you storm the Capitol? Because if you believe this lie—really, truly believe it—then you are trying to save our democratic republic.

    If you believe the lie that Democrats have ousted the duly-elected president of the United States in a bloodless junta, then what could President Joe Biden possibly do to bring about unity?

    Nothing. Because he would be—literally—a tyrant.

    BTW, when 97.6% of House Republicans passed Donald’s latest loyalty test–after all this–can’t be a good day for the GOP or America.

    Paul Montagu (ed68a5)

  127. @126. Yes- those pieces you posted were pretty good. It explains a lot of it festering over the years if ‘folks’ can get past the persona and personalities of the players. It will be interesting to see who ends up carrying their banner forward I the cycles ahead.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  128. Paul Montagu (ed68a5) — 1/13/2021 @ 2:28 pm

    This was exactly my question after 2016.

    We’ve spent the last 4 years with one side believing that Trump is not just illegitimate but that he’s an asset of a hostile foreign government. If you really truly believe the Russia story then you believe on a daily basis every single person near him who swore an oath to the constitution has knowingly acted against it. We’ve encouraged leaks, acting against POTUS orders, interfering in the military chain of command, delaying vaccines during a pandemic, etc. That or you don’t truly believe but are willing to agree with every politician, the media, and anyone else using that to their advantage.

    Still not seeing the monster yet? Do you still think Trump is the only monster in this story?

    frosty (f27e97)

  129. Er, 95.3%.

    Paul Montagu (ed68a5)

  130. DCSCA SAID: Then things started to change. For white working-class men in their 30s and 40s—what should be the prime decades for working and raising a family—participation in the labor force dropped from 96% in 1968 to 79% in 2015. Over that same period, the portion of these men who were married dropped from 86% to 52%. (The numbers for nonwhite working-class males show declines as well, though not as steep and not as continuous.

    I agree that happened.
    It happened because the Boomers and Boomer adjacent (confession, I’m boomer adjacent and had an amazing time in the 70’s and 80’s) spent years gourging themself’s and and losing their souls in the “Sexual Revolution” – which was really just a generation wide attempt (successful, BTW) to abandon responsibility and self control. They stayed in jobs and positions of power far longer than previous generations had and kept new blood from infusing the body politic.
    They gladly trumpeted the worst of humanity and licentiousness yet rejected the best of what that freedom created – the opportunity for women to get employment, sexual harassment awareness, the chance for gays to come out of the closet and be seen as really full humans, black people finally getting close to seeing a small speck of light at the end of the long Jim Crow tunnel.
    Instead, we got decades of rear guard action fighting “moral imperatives”, covering up child abuse and adultery, misogyny and racism.
    This lead to generations of drug use, the destruction of black communities, marriages and a culture of hedonism. It lead to children not being taught right and wrong, and that commitment did not matter to the point it has finally destroyed poor white communities too.
    Almost half of senators are over 65 (https://tinyurl.com/y2b2jqgo). Both trump and Biden are in their 70’s.
    Look at any big city downtown in the 70’s, it was sex shops and prostitutes, look at the way casual sex was dealt with in “Teen comedies” even into and through the 80’s.
    My SWJ daughter is appalled by the treatment of women, minorities and casual drug and sex use in media of the 70’s and 80’s (and into the 90’s).
    And granted she has no sense of humor (again, zealots rarely do!), but, by 2016, even with the recession of 2008, crime was way down, abortions the lowest in generations, black communities were finally starting to thrive after the crack epidemic razed them. Yes, South side Chicago was bad, and there was still a long way to go, without a doubt.
    But four years of Trump and Boomer insurgency, and we’ve got a literal revolution going on.
    Finally, I hope it’s finally clear those F@#$ers just want to pull up the drawbridge on the mess they created.
    They suck the entitlements dry, then they complain about necessary taxes to clean up the messes they created.
    They passed power to a few people on the hope that their IRA and retirements remain secure and they bitch about immigrants getting free rides and black people getting free stuff while they enjoy social security and pensions for the jobs that voted to send over seas. They condemn the Gays and Blacks and others for the problems they exacerbated.
    The Boomers were bad role models for their kids. BUT those kids are the ones tasked with fixing all this mess. It’s taken Gen X (and Millennials) decades to even understand what was happening and to even try bring it under control.
    It’s time for them to actually get a chance to govern*

    *Yes, I know there are many zealot young Republicans that bought into the nonsense too, but I think they are vastly outnumbered by those who what to make a lasting change, and I know many of the zealots on the left have Jihad strength passion that society can be bent to their will too, but there is a center of 20 – 50+ year old people to save the country, without violence.
    Fight the Gerontocracy!

    Kung Fu Pander (347d19)

  131. @128 Frosty —
    I would suggest not using the “quote” formatting option, following my name, when you’re not actually quoting me.

    I’m not saying that every problem begins with Trump, or that Dems don’t have problems. I’ve been offended by Dem sins and errors for many years — and probably blind to a lot of R. sins.

    Here I was responding specifically to Dana’s point about what has happened to the GOP over the past few years. That was the subject of my post. I wasn’t arguing that all evil begins with Trump.

    My main point is that the Trump-boosters made a choice to discard what they used to say about character and integrity in positions of power — or at least to give a sweeping exemption to Trump, while reserving the right to fling charges of bad character at people who oppose them politically.

    Trump and the Trumpist GOP are the proper focus of concern now because they are the ones who systematically spread lies about an election, fomenting violence against the legislature and raising the threat of more violence ahead. The Trumpist GOP is now the most clearly destructive force in our politics. It has ripped apart the GOP with its cynicism, effectively giving more power to the Dems.

    There is peril ahead because of what the Trumpist GOP has done. “But the Dems are not without sin” is quite beside the point.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  132. I’m genuinely curious why anyone would think it’s possible to have a sensible conversation with a fount of addled cant like Deezy-Eska.

    You cannot believe in quantum mechanics and not believe in DCSCA, Mr. Dave. — cf. Thomas Hertog

    nk (1d9030)

  133. Guess he’s learned lesson this time, eh Senator Collins?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  134. @133. No plagiarism; actually, as noted, that content was Kevin’s timely post. And Murray was spot on.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  135. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/13/2021 @ 3:01 pm

    There is peril ahead because of what the Trumpist GOP has done. “But the Dems are not without sin” is quite beside the point.

    It’s possible to be worried about more than one peril at the same time. It’s possible to think that the different perils might be related. If D’s didn’t have both houses, the WH, and a passing attraction to the hard left I’d agree. Since they’re the ones who’ll be in charge of the sin committing for at least the next 2 years it is very much the point.

    frosty (f27e97)

  136. This was exactly my question after 2016.

    What question? Hillary conceded the next day. There were no court challenges, no undermining state electoral systems, no allegations of fraud, no allegations of rigging, no disputes about state certifications, and no Senators objecting.
    All you had was a bunch of butthurt liberals whining and sour-graping about losing. That’s no comparison to Trump’s months-long Big Con about “fraud”.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  137. Top lawmakers alarmed by torrent of new threats
    ……
    Chilling details of these ongoing threats have emerged in a series of private lawmaker briefings this week, including one on Monday night in which Capitol Police and other officials warned House Democrats of multiple plots to harm lawmakers, according to several people who listened to the call. On Tuesday, senators received their own briefing from representatives of the Secret Service, the Department of Defense and the Department of Homeland Security, and a key group of House Democratic chairs separately met with the FBI.

    “Based on today’s briefing, we have grave concerns about ongoing and violent threats to our democracy,” that group of Democratic chairs said in a cryptic statement after the meeting on Tuesday. The briefing included the chairs and other top members of the House Oversight, Judiciary, Homeland Security, Armed Services and Intelligence panels.

    “It is clear that more must be done to preempt, penetrate, and prevent deadly and seditious assaults by domestic violent extremists in the days ahead,” the statement said.

    The lawmakers voiced their concerns moments after a public FBI and Justice Department briefing revealed their belief that the Jan. 6 violence could be part of a much graver, well-organized “seditious conspiracy.”
    …….
    By Tuesday afternoon, metal detectors had been stationed at the entrances of the House chamber, a sign of the potential risks that remain for members and their staff as Washington prepares for a critical vote to impeach Trump on Wednesday. Democratic staff, who were briefed on the changes on a call Tuesday, said all members must be screened before walking on the floor and can be denied entry if they refuse.
    …….
    Lawmakers, who had already been on high alert, have grown increasingly concerned amid multiple reports of specific plots against members. One FBI report, first reported by The Washington Post, stated that an online chat user had shared a map of the Capitol tunnels, as others called for a “war” at the building.
    …….
    On Monday night’s call, Democrats were warned that various groups — including Patriot Action for America, the Proud Boys and people involved with the Million Militia March — were potentially targeting the Capitol, the White House and the Supreme Court in the coming days, according to people on the call. They were told D.C. officials would release additional details on inauguration safety in the coming days.

    House Democrats were particularly alarmed as officials told them of groups that were specifically targeting members of their party, to prevent them from going into the building. But one member said there was hardly any information about what was being done to combat the threat.
    ……
    At least one of the measures, the metal detectors outside the House chamber, have drawn blowback. Rep. Rodney Davis (R-Insurrectionist), who is the top Insurrectionist on the House Administration Committee, was overheard by reporters calling it “bullsh!t“ to a top Democrat.

    And one freshman, Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-Insurrectionist), appeared to refuse to allow Capitol Police to inspect her bag, which set off the metal detectors as she tried to go in, according to reporters present. Boebert has publicly called members of Congress to be allowed to carry concealed weapons in the Capitol.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  138. If you really truly believe the Russia story…

    Exactly which “Russia story” are you referring?

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  139. Once upon a time, dimes, quarters and half-dollars were made of silver. Then Congress got involved and cheapened them into clad-coinage.

    Such is the fate of the value of ‘impeachment.’

    Thanks, Nancy.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  140. “The data is there”

    Usually this is said and followed immediately by showing the data…otherwise it becomes a logical fallacy

    And the fact that Trump got more votes in 2020 than 2016….yet a larger gap difference….doesn’t quite prove anything. You’re seeing a trend you want to see…

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  141. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/13/2021 @ 3:53 pm

    This is an interesting twist. You don’t think there were any claims over that last 4 years about Russia stealing the election or Trump being an agent of Russia? Nothing about #resist or how he was an illegitimate POTUS? We didn’t have a special counsel probe with daily updates about walls closing in? That was all just butthurt liberals? Do you not think that happened or it’s not a problem at all.

    Is this where you say “but that’s not the same thing” even though I didn’t say they were?

    frosty (f27e97)

  142. PERSON
    WOMAN
    MAN
    CAMERA
    TV
    GOYA BEANS

    Dustin (4237e0)

  143. You don’t think there were any claims over that last 4 years about Russia stealing the election or Trump being an agent of Russia?

    This is a trollish response to a very straightforward question, Mr. Pretzel Maker.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  144. @143, You need to review the 25 year spread from Buchanan times and watch the piece w/AEI’s Charles Murphy.

    He nails it.

    It doesn’t really matter if you believe it or not or your party accepts responsibility for repeatedly seducing and abandoning those folks just to win cycles. They’re riled up and pissed over it. The powers that be- the ‘talking heads’ on the TeeVee- know it and are telecasting the word; the issue now is how to stop the kettle from boiling. Start w/turning down the heat; get Covid vaccine into their arms, $2000 emergency Covid aid into the pockets of desperate Americans to tide them over through this, press on to open up the economy and get the idle hands due to lockdowns back to work.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  145. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that Trump is not in fact an agent of Russia and ask, hypothetically: “If he were an agent of Russia, what would he have been doing differently than what he has been doing?”

    nk (1d9030)

  146. Trump impeachment: No unity until his morally bankrupt defenders get over him and repent
    …….
    The president’s supporters, however, now plead for understanding and inclusion, for lowering the temperature, for moving on. In speech after speech Wednesday on the floor of the House, the same Republicans who had no objections to the president’s incitement to insurrection now have deep concerns about parliamentary process, the rule of law and national unity.

    This is moral charlatanism and I say to h@ll with it.

    It is almost impossible to comprehend the sheer moral poverty of the people calling now for unity. Elected Republicans now admit they fear for their physical safety from their own constituents, but instead of thunderous defenses of the Constitution, we have soft mewling from people like Sen. Marco Rubio and his Bible-Verse-A-Day tweets, or the head-spinning duplicity of Sen. Lindsey Graham, who within days of saying “count me out” of any further sedition was jollying it up with the president on Air Force One.

    The gold medal for hypocrisy should probably go to Kimberly Strassel of the Wall Street Journal, who demanded that Biden “show some grace,” that he “call on Democrats to stand down,” and that he “practice the healing” he and Kamala Harris promised during the campaign. “Why won’t he?” Strassel whined.

    What Trump’s defenders lack in honesty, self-awareness or patriotism, they certainly make up for with pure, weapons-grade chutzpah. (I would rather use a word referring to a common substance found on ranches that Ronald Reagan once described as one with “deep roots in our rich agricultural and farming tradition,” but this is a family newspaper.)
    …….
    But if they care about unity, then they need to demonstrate to the majority of their fellow citizens that they are able say just a handful of words with true commitment and meaning. As someone who opposed Trump from the moment he announced his candidacy, it would be emotionally gratifying to me to hear Trump’s supporters say “you were right” — as precious few of them have — but those are not the words I have in mind.
    ……
    “Unity” begins with repentance, and Republicans should get started. Supporting Trump’s removal from office and instituting his permanent exile from American politics are the necessary first steps.
    >>>>>>>>>>

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  147. Queens Felon Charged with Illegal Possession of Ammunition
    A criminal complaint was filed today in federal court in Brooklyn charging Eduard Florea with being a felon in possession of ammunition. Florea was arrested yesterday at his home in Queens, New York, and made his initial appearance this afternoon before United States Magistrate Judge Sanket J. Bulsara who ordered the defendant detained pending trial.
    ……
    “As alleged, Florea, a previously convicted felon, made various social media posts about his plan to travel to Washington D.C. to engage in acts of violence. We saved him a trip and paid him a visit instead. Yesterday evening members of the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force, to include our partners at the New York City Police Department, placed him under arrest for illegally possessing ammunition. For those of you out there with similar intentions, heed this warning—knock it off, or expect to see us at your door,” stated FBI Assistant Director-in-Charge Sweeney.

    According to the complaint and statements made in court, Florea operated a social media account on Parler using the name “LoneWolfWar.” Florea who was previously convicted of a New York state firearms-related felony, posted threatening statements online about killing a United States Senator-elect and about intending to travel to Washington D.C. as part of a group armed with firearms ready to engage in violence. For example, on January 6, 2021, Florea posted “dead men can’t pass [expletive] laws” in response to a post about a United States Senator-elect.

    Additionally, Florea posted on social media:

    “Let’s go . . . I will be reaching out to patriots in my area so we can come up with a game plan . . . Here in New York we are target rich[] . . . . Dead men can’t pass [expletive] law. . . . I will fight so help me god.”

    “The time for peace and civility is over . . . ./3 cars full of armed patriots are enroute from NY / 3 cars of armed patriots heading into DC from NY / Guns cleaned loaded . . . got a bunch of guys all armed and ready to deploy . . . we are just waiting for the word.”

    “Its time to unleash some violence.”
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  148. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/13/2021 @ 4:37 pm

    trollish? It seemed like a fair question to “Exactly which “Russia story””.

    You’ve been a big proponent of the Russia hoax. Do you think he was a Russian asset and illegitimate POTUS or have you just been repeating ad nauseam Russiagate talking points for some other reason?

    You didn’t mention it; am I right to think that you want to conclude the other sub-thread after posting a link that doesn’t do what you claim it does and accusing me of acting in bad faith?

    frosty (f27e97)

  149. Trump is missing in action as extremists plan more violence

    President Trump is committing an unforgivable sin of omission this week.

    Trump should be openly, sternly, and vociferously urging all his supporters not to protest or riot at capitol buildings across the nation in the next week, and he should be warning that even the slightest violence will be met with appropriate force, along with arrests and prosecution. Instead, he blathers that his inflammatory rally remarks last week were “totally appropriate,” and he still has said far more to praise his riotous supporters than to denounce them.

    Even when on Jan. 12 he offered vague paeans to “peace and calm” and “respect for law enforcement,” Trump spent more time issuing threats of political reprisals to Democrats.

    This is appalling. …..

    …..[T]hese are grave internal threats to our constitutional republic. Moreover, most of the threats come from supporters of the outgoing president — people acting largely in the name of, and taking cues from, Trump himself. Lots of them presumably would stand down if Trump, recognizing the existing tinderbox, forcefully denounced their plans and urged them not even to protest the transition of power next week. Even though he thinks he has been wronged, he should say that the dangers of conflagration next week are too great and that they must channel their support for him into other, more productive, less dangerous channels.

    As president, Trump has a sacred duty to put the national good ahead of his own pride or feelings of victimization. ……Trump must tell those planning armed, riotous demonstrations to cease their activities. He must protect this nation. He must make clear that arrests for any illegality will be encouraged and that there will be not a shred of legal mercy shown to those who violate the peace. He absolutely must nip potential insurrection in the bud.

    Right now, some of the crazies backing Trump are reading between the lines of his inaction. ……The hotheads in MAGA world still think they have his support. ……
    …….
    “……a sacred duty to put the national good ahead of his own pride or feelings of victimization.” The only sacred duty for Trump is to himself and his family.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  150. Doing nothing is better than most of the somethings he’s done. I’ll be happy if he doesn’t start a nuclear war with China on his way out. And I mean happy. The possibility is real and not remote enough.

    nk (1d9030)

  151. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/13/2021 @ 4:54 pm

    “Its time to unleash some violence.”

    I don’t envy the FBI. They’re going to have their hands full. Protective details for all those Congressmen is also going to be tough and that isn’t a short term worry. There also going to need a lot of help from state and local cops who’ve taken a big hit.

    frosty (f27e97)

  152. Half of all impeachments were of presidents who weren’t Trump. Fun fact right there.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  153. 37. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/13/2021 @ 11:38 am

    Now you understand why Trump beat a cop to death.

    It is not really fair to say he did that.

    He doesn;t even want to admit it happened, or at least that any of his supporters did that.

    In his statement today he didn';t mention it as among the things he didn’t want to happen. The worst thing that happened, you would think, was “vandalism.”

    https://news.yahoo.com/trump-calls-no-violence-no-195205452.html

    Trump calls for ‘NO violence, NO lawbreaking and NO vandalism’ while House debates impeaching him over inciting a deadly Capitol riot,

    …”I urge that there must be NO violence, NO lawbreaking and NO vandalism of any kind,” Trump said. I think he felt very comfortable with that word “vandalism” You could hear it in the way he said it.

    I heard a report that there are people who want Trump to say that. They don’t care whether or not people believe he means it. Just say it.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  154. And apparently at least one of the republicans who were demanding no impeachment of Trump, for the sake of unity, plan to impeach Biden on the 21st. My guess is that Trump GOP members hope to be in the minority, raking in the benefits without solving a thing, while the country declines.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  155. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/13/2021 @ 5:02 pm

    Trump should be openly, sternly, and vociferously urging all his supporters not to protest or riot

    Absolutely, and it wouldn’t help. His critics wouldn’t believe he was sincere, his critics wouldn’t believe his supporters thought he was sincere, and the people we want to get that message wouldn’t think he was sincere.

    I’m ready for him to be gone, if only so that we don’t have to keep going in this particular circle.

    frosty (f27e97)

  156. “Trump and the Trumpist GOP are the proper focus of concern now because they are the ones who systematically spread lies about an election, fomenting violence against the legislature and raising the threat of more violence ahead.”

    When the legislature spreads lies about the electorate, foments violence against them, and raises the threats of more violence ahead, as they did over the Biden BLM 2020 riots, such results are only deserved. Congress was asking for it, and got extremely angry when they got it at a time and place they thought themselves invincible.

    “The Trumpist GOP is now the most clearly destructive force in our politics. It has ripped apart the GOP with its cynicism, effectively giving more power to the Dems.”

    Trump RIPPING APART THE GOP, i.e. constantly forcing the parasitic slime mold grifter collective on top of the base to readjust is position and camoflague whenever it sucked too hard on its host, generally making the host aware of that slime mold’s tricks, was the best thing that happened to them from the perspective of ‘getting things you want out of politics.’

    The Dems’ entire schtick is ‘vote for us or LITERALLY HITLER will take over!’ Besides having the effect of unfairly raising Hitler’s estimation among many by comparison to far less bad figures, it’s not exactly a recipe for committed voters. Where were they on the 6th, aside from their few agitators starting fights and egging on riots with a far larger and more committed crowd?

    Enhanced Sit-in (ba3ee4)

  157. It is not really fair to say he did that.

    Sammy, if Nixon is a crook, because he was loyal to crooks, because he inspired crooks, then Trump is similarly linked to those who did what Flynn and Rudy told them to do, what Trump clearly knew was coming, etc etc.

    It really depends on how you assign moral responsibility. I’ve seen a lot of people condemn the concept of felony murder (I think it’s a good idea if exercised with common sense). If you do not think Nixon is a crook, I can understand not thinking Trump is responsible for beating a cop to death.

    But who did we think was going to take the brunt of Trump fans’ violence? When they wore shirts saying “Civil war” and “it’s 1776″ who specifically were they going to fight with? The cops were the most predictable recipients of Trump’s anger, then congress, then Mike Pence.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  158. I’m ready for him to be gone, if only so that we don’t have to keep going in this particular circle.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/13/2021 @ 5:20 pm

    You remain an outspoken Trump defender.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  159. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/13/2021 @ 3:51 pm

    Hillary conceded the next day. There were no court challenges, no undermining state electoral systems, no allegations of fraud, no allegations of rigging, no disputes about state certifications, and no Senators objecting.

    There was only an attempt to persuade Electors not to vote for Trump.

    And also, recounts, but asked for by Jill Stein of the Green Party, who was even closer to Vladimir Putin than Mike Flynn (I think the reason was Trump was looking like he might appoint Mitt Romney Secretary of State.

    And Romney would have taken the job. Out of patriotism.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  160. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that Trump is not in fact an agent of Russia and ask, hypothetically: “If he were an agent of Russia, what would he have been doing differently than what he has been doing?”

    nk (1d9030) — 1/13/2021 @ 4:46 pm

    You’d like to think a professional have been less obvious about it. On the other hand, Putin, a world-class gaslighter himself, probably enjoys the brazenness.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  161. *would* have been

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  162. https://deadline.com/2021/01/amazon-court-filing-parler-for-content-inciting-planning-rape-torture-and-assassination-of-public-officials-private-citizens-1234673134/

    Great read regarding Amazon’s opinion of Parler. Trump fans wanted to shoot cops in the head, were “planning the rape, torture, and assassination of named public officials.”

    These guys might think Russian collusion is a reason to defend Trump, but I take that kind of argument to mean a total detachement from reality. It’s radicalized people into being something less than people, to be blunt about the extremists. They had those flex cuffs, were killing a man while singing. Trump said “We love you” and Ivanka called them patriots.

    It is easy to whatabout this with stories about nuts on the left, but no matter how you weight it, the nation is in real trouble.

    It is regrettable Parler isn’t up today, used by the FBI to get as many of these people as possible off the street.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  163. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that Trump is not in fact an agent of Russia and ask, hypothetically: “If he were an agent of Russia, what would he have been doing differently than what he has been doing?”

    If he’s an agent, he’s a lousy one. Putin, a KGB veteran, probably knows what a good agent entails and what characteristics an agent should have. Trump has almost none of them. He’s loud, brash, unpredictable, and probably bordering on senile.

    Putin and Russia – like the rest of our international friends and foes – see Trump has an unpredictable blowhard with populist tendencies. They probably spent most of their time figuring out how to make heads or tails of him since he doesn’t fit the mold of a normal president: a career politician.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  164. Queens man impeached — again

    A Queens-born real estate developer made history Wednesday when he became the first U.S. president ever impeached twice by the House of Representatives.
    ……
    Ten Republican members of Congress joined the Democratic majority in voting to impeach the Jamaica Estates native for the second time.

    In December 2019, Trump became the third president impeached by Congress — and the first from Queens.
    ……
    There’s always a local angle.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  165. If he’s an agent, he’s a lousy one. Putin, a KGB veteran, probably knows what a good agent entails and what characteristics an agent should have.

    Not an agent, but a useful idiot.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  166. If he’s an agent, he’s a lousy one. Putin, a KGB veteran, probably knows what a good agent entails and what characteristics an agent should have. Trump has almost none of them. He’s loud, brash, unpredictable, and probably bordering on senile.

    Putin and Russia – like the rest of our international friends and foes – see Trump has an unpredictable blowhard with populist tendencies. They probably spent most of their time figuring out how to make heads or tails of him since he doesn’t fit the mold of a normal president: a career politician.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/13/2021 @ 5:37 pm

    As usual, you make a lot of sense. But Trump can be a ridiculous jackass and still follow some instructions kinda crudely. I always felt his Ghislaine comments were a deeper rabbit hole than the nation had time to go down. Slick manchurian candidate he is not. He’s probably not being blackmailed with a pee pee tape either. But something is up. He has done so much for Putin, and harmed Putin’s fores so often.

    It’s too bad the alternative to career politician is celebrity because I think we’ll see a lot more of this.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  167. frosty (f27e97) — 1/13/2021 @ 4:30 pm

    frosty, I don’t know what “twist” you’re talking about and I don’t know if you’re talking to me or some vague caricature you have about Trump critics in general, but it seems like the latter. But if you’re not going to tell me what “Russia story” you’re talking about, then I’ll give you my take.
    Did Putin launch a “sweeping and systematic” effort to undermine our 2016 election to sow chaos and help Trump win? Yes, the Mueller report covers that in detail. I wouldn’t call that a “story”, it’s what happened.
    Did Putin people and Trump people conspire to help Trump win? Yes, but there was insufficient evidence to conclude with confidence and pursue and indictment. The most culpable was Manafort.
    What about Crossfire Hurricane? The IG concluded that (1) it was properly predicated, (2) there was no evidence of bias among the agents involved (except for FBI attorney Clinesmith), and (3) there were serious errors and omissions involved the Page FISA warrant application and renewals.
    Is Trump an agent for Putin? No evidence. We know that Trump has never said a cross toward Putin since the Golden Escalator, his Helsinki press conference was a diplomatic abomination, and that Trump was working a real estate deal for Trump Tower Moscow while running for president. To date, Trump has done nothing since we learned about the massive hack of SolarWinds. Trump will lie to you and say he’s been tough on Putin, but not that I can see.
    The Steele reports? Some of it was true, some of it was proven false, some of it was unverified, and some was unverifiable.
    Other people are going to have their opinions, but they don’t speak for me and I don’t speak for them.
    Is there some other “Russia story” that you’re referring to, or does the above cover it?

    Paul Montagu (6ba4ec)

  168. That seems fair and judicious, Paul.

    I’m really tired of this. We’re past the point of intellectual curiosity. Stamp it out, whatever it is, ASAP.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  169. Do you think he was a Russian asset and illegitimate POTUS or have you just been repeating ad nauseam Russiagate talking points for some other reason?

    Define your terms. The Mueller Report makes a compelling case that the Russians wanted Trump to win, they dangled their assistance, he eagerly sought it out, and he lied repeatedly about it and a myriad other things about Russia and his connections to it. Call that collusion, cooperation, whatever you want. Colloquially he was their asset and they were his. And morally it does wreck his legitimacy. That doesn’t mean he committed any crimes or that he isn’t the de jure legitimate president.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  170. Nothing about #resist or how he was an illegitimate POTUS? We didn’t have a special counsel probe with daily updates about walls closing in? That was all just butthurt liberals? Do you not think that happened or it’s not a problem at all.

    Why are butthurt liberals a problem? So what. Trump was the legitimately elected president in 2016, that’s just a fact, and if progressives were having kittens about it, not my problem. My views about the world aren’t formed by how loud left-wingers screech about things.

    Paul Montagu (6ba4ec)

  171. It’s really a disgrace, that instead of worrying whether Kamala will outlaw the eating of beef (she’s really a Baptist, BTW) but Amy Coney Barrett will limit the ban to only on Fridays, we’re worried that the country will go up in flames on Inauguration day and with good reason to worry. WTF? Just WTF?

    nk (1d9030)

  172. Anyone who can’t see the difference between some wingnuts venting their frustration at losing a close election, with no encouragement or support from anyone in authority, and the freaking president, with over half his party’s elected representatives in Washington backing him up, trying first to steal the election by fabricating fraud charges, and then sending a mob to attack the legislature so they can’t complete the certification, is every bit as deranged and evil as Trump.

    Dave (1bb933)

  173. ‘Exile-in-chief’? Trump a ‘flight risk’ if criminal charges are filed, experts say

    He has had unfettered access to the most secret and potentially damaging information about our military and intelligence services for four years.

    We can’t take any chances. If he makes a run for it, I think national security demands we bring down the plane.

    Dave (1bb933)

  174. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/13/2021 @ 5:24 pm

    You remain an outspoken Trump defender.

    I’ve only got your comments here to work with and from that you seem to have a limited set of filters. I don’t get into the Trump hate and I think a lot of the comments I see here are poorly grounded. I engage on the other side of arguments you like. To you that makes me an outspoken Trump defender because that fits into your filter. Maybe it’s the forum style medium. I can’t change that.

    I am trying to avoid antagonizing you as you requested. That was your request and I’ve tried to honor it. It seems like you have changed your mind with the recent drive by comments and then the direct engagement. I’m willing to live and let live or we can go back to nit picking each other’s comments. What I’m not willing to do is go on with you calling me a liar and a troll and whatever else and me not responding.

    frosty (f27e97)

  175. 160.

    Sammy, if Nixon is a crook,

    Nixon was not a crook, in particular about his income taxes, which is what he was talking about. Even though an audit found some things wrong.

    because he was loyal to crooks,

    He wanted to go easy on Liddy. That was for about two weeks. He had no further interest in a cover up after July 6, 1972 in part because what he had been hoping to hide was the connection to his re-election campaign, and that was out.

    On March 20, or 21, 1973, when John Deann got him to authorize paying some hush money to E.Howard Hunt after he had already given him the money!

    The lie he chose to tell Richard Nixon is that Hunt was maybe going to talk about the burglary of Daniel Ellsberg’s psychiatrist’s office, which, since it was done for a governmental purpose, Nixon did not consider a legal problem. Dean did not mention Watergate because Nixon had no interest in hiding anything about it at that time. He only did at the very beginning, and had forgotten. It also had had no practical impact as the CIA did not claim to the FBI that some undercover operation would be revealed by pursing a lead.

    because he inspired crooks,

    You mean like Liddy? Or his whole setting up of an “intelligence operation” in the Committee to Re-Elect the President and appointing Liddy to head it? Or his “dirty tricks” campaign department.

    then Trump is similarly linked to those who did what Flynn and Rudy told them to do, what Trump clearly knew was coming, etc etc.

    Well, I don’t know that Trump knew what was coming, but there were maybe some other people who did. (because of the name)

    The website was named wildprotest.com back in December. Here’s the earliest snapshot, December 23:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20201223062953/http://wildprotest.com

    They did mention a protest at the Capitol:

    Stated purpose:

    …Our presence in Washington D.C. will let Members of Congress know that we stand with Rep. Mo Brooks and his colleagues in the House of Representatives who will bravely object to the certification of the Electoral College…StopTheSteal.us is working closely, whipping the vote up, with patriots in the Congress.

    StoptheSteal had sponsored several protests, all of them peaceful (maybe the Jan 6 one got its name to indicate – to some – it would be less peaceful.)

    http://web.archive.org/web/20201209083844/https://stopthesteal.us/

    Exceept for maybe that Jericho March. On December 12, 2020, I read, Mike Flynn led protesters seven times around the Capitol in the hopes the walls would fall down. (although we don’t see that on this video) At 23:00 a woman says to set the world on fire. But all she does is sing a well known song.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=romt1iWW4Oc

    Mike Flynn says the courts aren’t going to decide who the next president of the United Stats will be. We the People will.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  176. Nixon was not a crook, in particular about his income taxes, which is what he was talking about. Even though an audit found some things wrong.

    I was responding to DCSCA saying Nixon was a crook, and applying that argument to Trump’s culpability.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  177. Here is a description of the planned attack on major U.S. government buildings on December 12, 2020:

    https://jerichomarch.org/2020/12/lt-general-mike-flynn-to-speak-eric-metaxas-to-emcee-at-the-jericho-march-and-stop-the-steal-prayer-rally-on-the-national-mall

    Jericho Marches will take place from 9:30-10:45 AM simultaneously around the U.S. Capitol, Supreme Court, and Department of Justice as they march around the buildings seven times and pray for the walls of corruption and election fraud to fall down, just as Joshua and the Israelites walked around the walls of corrupt Jericho.

    They didn’t actually expect the walls to fall down, because after that a rally was planned at the National Mall to go from 11 am to 4 pm

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  178. Trump calls for ‘NO violence, NO lawbreaking and NO vandalism’ while House debates impeaching him over inciting a deadly Capitol riot,

    Yes, but they know where his heart really lies.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  179. RE Sammy

    You mean like Liddy? Or his whole setting up of an “intelligence operation” in the Committee to Re-Elect the President and appointing Liddy to head it? Or his “dirty tricks” campaign department.

    Yeah basically.

    Well, I don’t know that Trump knew what was coming

    Respectfully disagree. Take Flynn’s advice to Trump, or Rudy’s comments to the public that was wearing Civil War shirts. Take Trump’s calls for armed liberation of Michigan, and how that worked out. At a certain point, when does Trump stop getting so much benefit of the doubt? Maybe when a maga flagpole is beating a cop’s head into a staircase.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  180. Now, what was Trump’s plan to have this demonstration-in-force work for him? How was he going to use it to stay in office?

    1. He expected that the GOP would cave to his demands when they saw the might of his awesome following, and Pence would use his “powers” to declare the ballots from PA, GA, AZ and whatever else they needed to be actually for Trump and everyone would go along and admit they were outplayed?

    Maybe. He might be that deranged. But there’s an alternative, that is perhaps more deranged, but its hard to say:

    2. He expected his mob to capture the building and hold the Senators and House prisoner until they voted him in as President. Maybe they’d hang some, like Pelosi or that traitor Pence. Or just start shooting. Then Trump would declare martial law and he’d be president for life!

    #2 sounds absurd? How does it get more absurd than #1? Neither one seems like the product of a well mind.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  181. Paul Montagu (6ba4ec) — 1/13/2021 @ 5:51 pm

    Why are butthurt liberals a problem? So what. Trump was the legitimately elected president in 2016, that’s just a fact, and if progressives were having kittens about it, not my problem. My views about the world aren’t formed by how loud left-wingers screech about things.

    Given that there’s a difference between explaining a thing and agreeing with a thing that seems to keep causing issues let’s see how this goes.

    They’re everyone’s problem because contrary to what was mentioned @ Dave (1bb933) — 1/13/2021 @ 6:17 pm many people believe what followed 2016 was also an attempted coup, albeit a soft one. It doesn’t matter whether either of us believe it. Enough people do believe it that it influenced their decisions. They’re everyone’s problem for the same reason the capital riot is everyone’s problem and they are related. I see a lot of people thinking that if this is all on Trump and we can get rid of Trump the problem will go away. That lets them not have to consider other issues, especially ones that might actually challenge their views.

    You can’t solve a problem unless you understand it and we don’t have the luxury of not having to deal with other peoples worldviews.

    frosty (f27e97)

  182. 115. aphrael (4c4719) — 1/13/2021 @ 2:04 pm

    If there is evidence that legislators assisted in the attack on the Capitol, they must be expelled.

    On January 5, one or more leislators were seen by another giving some people a tour. She suspects the people being given a tour were familiarizing themselves with the layout for purposes of harm.

    AOC says she wouldn’t shelter with Republicans because she felt some might want her to come to harm.

    Three Democrats tested positive for coronavirus – they suspect Republicans who refused to wear masks on January 6 (because Nancy Pelosi has rules that limit exposure that weren’t adhered to during the attack.)

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  183. “It really depends on how you assign moral responsibility. I’ve seen a lot of people condemn the concept of felony murder (I think it’s a good idea if exercised with common sense). If you do not think Nixon is a crook, I can understand not thinking Trump is responsible for beating a cop to death.

    “Every Democrat is responsible for every cop that was ever killed by every thug aggrieved by Black Lives Matter, and in addition to that for the large jumps in murder rates in those cities following the riots publicized, funded, inflamed, and bankrolled by their shared donors.”

    Did you…

    1. Believe this.
    2. state that you believed it every day when the worst of it was happening.
    3. demand that prominent Democrats be held criminally responsible for shooting cops in the back of the head at traffic stops.
    4. work that into your everyday rhetoric in transparently obvious ways, like “PELOSI, WHO SHOT THAT COP IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD AT A TRAFFIC STOP”

    No? NEIN? Than kindly quit the verbal histrionics.

    “But who did we think was going to take the brunt of Trump fans’ violence? When they wore shirts saying “Civil war” and “it’s 1776″ who specifically were they going to fight with? The cops were the most predictable recipients of Trump’s anger, then congress, then Mike Pence.”

    The number of injured and killed law enforcement on-site was far, far, far, far less by protest size than at any comparable BLM demonstration. Most wisely stood aside and gave the protestors space to grandstand. A competent, nay, representative set of representatives would have given them proper targets to vent their rage on. But the courts mostly refused to even hear their cases, the representatives mostly refused to engage seriously with their concerns even in the face of video evidence to the contrary, and most simply repeated the NO EVIDENCE line without ever looking at the evidence. Sow fraud, self-righteousness, and apathy, reap violence, mayhem and hatred. And you’re extremely lucky you didn’t reap more! Thank the Lord for the chance to live another day and maybe take some time to consider why a majority of the middle-class hate you and everything you stand for that doesn’t involve the Q excuse.

    Enhanced Sit-in (0a8399)

  184. CNN Airport to Shut Down March 31, 2021

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jan/12/cnn-shut-down-airport-network-air-travel-drops-pan/

    CNN to shut down airport network as air travel drops in pandemic. Cable network was fixture in U.S. airports for three decades.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  185. You can’t solve a problem unless you understand it and we don’t have the luxury of not having to deal with other peoples worldviews.

    We just see things really differently, frosty. I know that a segment didn’t recognize Trump as president. Again I say, so what? I argued with multiple liberals who refused to recognize Trump as their president, and the easy response is that the facts aren’t on their side.
    And what does it matter if some people wrongly feel there was a “coup” or “soft coup” that put Trump in the White House when there was no evidence of such a thing? Shouldn’t established facts matter?
    I’ve heard liberals tell me that Comey gave Trump the presidency, or that Putin gave it to Trump. My answer was that the best experts can’t pick any one single thing where they could say “Ah hah, that’s what did it!” I usually follow up something like “so move on already”, or “Putin didn’t tell Hillary not to go Wisconsin”.
    I’ve really had these conversations with left-wingers. Surprisingly enough, most of them are actually fairly reasonable and they eventually settled down.
    Moving to today, there’s Trump’s Big Lie about rigging and/or serious fraud. He has no facts on his side. All I’m seeing is his legions of supplicants and sycophants scrambling to backfill his lies, and all they can do is wave untested affidavits around or throw out one bogus tale after the next in this or that ballroom, or get some hired-gun spreadsheet warrior to conjure up a few statistical inconsistencies that don’t really prove a damn thing. They tried the court route and that failed miserably.

    Paul Montagu (6ba4ec)

  186. “The number of injured and killed law enforcement on-site was far, far, far, far less by protest size than at any comparable BLM demonstration. ”

    How many police do you think get killed at a typical BLM demonstration?

    Davethulhu (95ea9f)

  187. 83. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/13/2021 @ 6:51 pm

    Now, what was Trump’s plan to have this demonstration-in-force work for him? How was he going to use it to stay in office?

    1. He expected that the GOP would cave to his demands when they saw the might of his awesome following, and Pence would use his “powers” to declare the ballots from PA, GA, AZ and whatever else they needed to be actually for Trump and everyone would go along and admit they were outplayed?

    I think the missing element here has to be lies he was being told.

    Pence (or Congress) would delay the proclamation of the result, and then there was something that somebody was going to work out in some states to change their electoral votes. Giuliani seems also to have believed that.

    Of course a simpler plan seems to be to not count 6 states – AZ, GA, MI, NV, PA and WI and have Trump win 232-227. Maybe that was the plan Wednesday morning January 6. You would need a majority of both Houses to overrule the chair (Pence) But nobody knows even if there was a plan or what was to follow. In any case, Pence wouldn’t do Step One.

    Maybe. He might be that deranged. But there’s an alternative, that is perhaps more deranged, but its hard to say:

    2. He expected his mob to capture the building and hold the Senators and House prisoner until they voted him in as President. Maybe they’d hang some, like Pelosi or that traitor Pence. Or just start shooting. Then Trump would declare martial law and he’d be president for life!

    That;s two different plans:

    A) Force Congress to act like he wanted, like Mussolini did in 1922, and

    B) Declare martial law.

    #2 sounds absurd? How does it get more absurd than #1? Neither one seems like the product of a well mind.

    Neither shows any sign that it would work, but #1 sounds easier and has more evidence.

    #2 requires unknown secret conversations. All #1 requires is for some liars to lie to each other.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  188. Of course somebody planned the assault.

    It is hard to see, though, how they could have achieved anything more than forcing a recess of Congress. And that takes you back to #1. Both #1 and #2 involve forcing a delay in the count.

    Then, what? We can only speculate.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  189. “It really depends on how you assign moral responsibility. I’ve seen a lot of people condemn the concept of felony murder (I think it’s a good idea if exercised with common sense). If you do not think Nixon is a crook, I can understand not thinking Trump is responsible for beating a cop to death.”

    “Every Democrat is responsible for every cop that was ever killed by every thug aggrieved by Black Lives Matter, and in addition to that for the large jumps in murder rates in those cities following the riots publicized, funded, inflamed, and bankrolled by their shared donors.”

    Did you…

    1. Believe this.
    2. state that you believed it every day when the worst of it was happening.
    3. demand that prominent Democrats be held criminally responsible for shooting cops in the back of the head at traffic stops.
    4. work that into your everyday rhetoric in transparently obvious ways, like “PELOSI, WHO SHOT THAT COP IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD AT A TRAFFIC STOP”

    No? NEIN? Than kindly quit the verbal histrionics.

    “But who did we think was going to take the brunt of Trump fans’ violence? When they wore shirts saying “Civil war” and “it’s 1776″ who specifically were they going to fight with? The cops were the most predictable recipients of Trump’s anger, then congress, then Mike Pence.”

    The number of injured and killed law enforcement on-site was far, far, far, far less by protest size than at any comparable BLM demonstration. Most wisely stood aside and gave the protestors space to grandstand. A competent, nay, representative set of representatives would have given them proper targets to vent their rage on. But the courts mostly refused to even hear their cases, the representatives mostly refused to engage seriously with their concerns even in the face of video evidence to the contrary, and most simply repeated the NO EVIDENCE line without ever looking at the evidence. Sow fraud, self-righteousness, and apathy, reap violence, mayhem and hatred. And you’re extremely lucky you didn’t reap more! Thank the Lord for the chance to live another day and maybe take some time to consider why a majority of the middle-class hate you and everything you stand for that doesn’t involve the Q excuse.

    Enhanced Sit-in (0a8399) — 1/13/2021 @ 7:11 pm

    Wow I can actually see when your blood sugar crashed in this little whatever. Why can’t more of you Trump fans eat a salad?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  190. mob to capture the building and hold the Senators and House prisoner until they voted him in as President. Maybe they’d hang some, like Pelosi or that traitor Pence.

    That doesn’t lead to Trump getting another term; that leads to a very short Civil War, which they’d lose.

    Even if a foreign country joined in.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  191. As if I needed another reason to hate my party.

    Paul Montagu (6ba4ec)

  192. Paul Montagu (6ba4ec) — 1/13/2021 @ 7:24 pm

    Shouldn’t established facts matter?

    This is actually a complex question but I can’t think of an easy or interesting way to carry that further.

    They should but they don’t.

    frosty (f27e97)

  193. Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca) — 1/13/2021 @ 7:38 pm

    That doesn’t lead to Trump getting another term; that leads to a very short Civil War, which they’d lose.

    I can’t see an argument for a pre-planned large scale rational plan for a coup involving multiple congressmen giving people recon tours and federal officers being in on it. A rational plan to stage some sort of sit-in, maybe. An smaller uncoordinated irrational plan for who knows what? Sure, but there’s no way a group of rational people sat down and used the underpants gnome’s plan for a coup. In a rational group there’d have to be at least one jack-a$$ like me constantly saying “nope, it doesn’t work like that”.

    frosty (f27e97)

  194. Davethulhu (95ea9f) — 1/13/2021 @ 7:25 pm

    How many police do you think get killed at a typical BLM demonstration?

    I think it’s a mistake to use averages.
    From:

    As for the numbers claimed in the post, the U.S. Justice Department told us it does not have figures on officer injuries or property damage resulting from civil disturbances, and the FBI said it had no comment. There are scattered news reports that don’t entirely back up each part of the claim, and we found no official figures.

    Officers injured: The New York Post reported on June 8, citing the U.S. Justice Department, that more than 700 law enforcement officers were injured on the job during nationwide protests over Floyd’s death.

    This article can’t put this on BLM for reasons I don’t agree with but it’s also a mistake to play the one is worse than the other game.

    frosty (f27e97)

  195. #2 sounds surprisingly plausible given what we’re learning about the kind of weapons people were bringing to the invasion, what they were saying when they were in the building, and the fact that they erected a gallows.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  196. Or, #3: It was a giant tantrum, acted out by disjoint angry people just because!

    Still, the zip ties, weapons, beeline for certain offices (I ask you, who could find anything in a giant multi-story building like that. Is there a GPS-based storming-Congress app?). I don’t think there’s anything behind the tour thing, other than a bunch of the Congressman’s supporters were in town for the rally-plus-lynching.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  197. Sammy, that’s still speculation, not evidence of assistance, although i still think it’s suggestive.

    > Three Democrats tested positive for coronavirus – they suspect Republicans who refused to wear masks on January 6 (because Nancy Pelosi has rules that limit exposure that weren’t adhered to during the attack.)

    i wonder what happens if enough Dems die that they lose the majority.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  198. > ask you, who could find anything in a giant multi-story building like that. Is there a GPS-based storming-Congress app?

    if there was, it’s probably no longer available for download from the appstores 😛

    seriously though, it’s looking a lot like there were elements in the crowd who had the tools for, and the intent to, seize congressmen and execute them. not the whole crowd, for sure. but *some*.

    as hard as it is to imagime, we got very, very lucky.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  199. Dispelling Trump’s big lie about the “stolen” election will be a protracted effort.

    Hitler knew the lasting power of a big lie:

    For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying.

    — Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol. I, ch. X

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  200. Frosty, at 131: i’ve maintained since 2015 that part of the danger Trump represented was that, in order to protect the republic from him, his opponents would be left with no choice but to danger the republic in smaller ways.

    There’s certainly an element to which, often, those who fight monsters themselves become monsters in the process. I’m sure that’s happened for some during the last five years, maybe even money, but I don’t think it’s universal.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  201. “damage the republic”, not “danger the republic”, although the latter oddly works, too.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  202. Seditionist copperheads congressmen paul gosar, andy biggs and mo brooks should read up on the 14th amendment section 3 and their lawyers.

    asset (3fbce6)

  203. So, who turns John Dean?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  204. For those curious about the constitutionality of late impeachments, there’s an interesting discussion on the Lawfare blog:

    https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-late-impeachments?

    Victor (4959fb)

  205. 158. Rip Murdock (quoting Tom Nichols of USA Today:

    the head-spinning duplicity of Sen. Lindsey Graham, who within days of saying “count me out” of any further sedition was jollying it up with the president on Air Force One.

    Somebody has got to keep a watch on Donald Trump. To do that he’s got to be a little in his confidence.

    It’s still duplicity, though.

    After the November election, he was telling him he could and should run for re-election in 2024.

    Possibly for that reason, Mitch McConnell is going to do nothing with the impeachment until at least January 19.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  206. For the first time in twenty years CNN and MSNBC had higher ratings than FOX. That’s an indication that people are tired of watching Hannity et all peddle Trump’s lies.

    Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube have banned Trump; Amazon has deplatformed Parcel. Networks and cable outlets are declining interviews. Increasingly isolated, Trump’s only access to social media is through the White House Twitter feed, where he posted a video, calling for an end to violence then repeating his false claims of voter fraud and election theft. But he’ll only have access to that account for another six days.

    Even McConnell, one of his staunchest supporters, has distance himself from Trump. They haven’t spoken with each other since December 14. McConnell is furious, because he blames Trump for losing the Senate majority. His lifelong ambition has been to be the Senate majority leader, but now there can’t be a majority leader in a 50-50 Senate, but the Democrats have the +1 majority with VP Harris acting as the tie-breaker.

    That’s why he said he was “pleased” House Democrats went forward with impeachment and suggested he would not oppose conviction. McConnell sees a political opportunity to remove Trump from the party permanently. If convicted, Trump will never be allowed to hold or even run for office again.

    That’s the purpose of the Senate trial, to prevent Trump from forming a third party and running in 2024. McConnell is looking at the wreckage left behind in the Republican party–it is now fractured, perhaps beyond repair.

    https://www.nationaljournal.com/s/711982?unlock=A2QMK636ICTDKJVM

    The siege on the Capitol deeply disturbed many Americans. And it was a siege. You don’t go to a peaceful protest armed with guns, clubs, hammers, spears, tear gas, pipe bombs, etc.. Also, this assault was planned and organized.

    Did Trump direct it? No, he doesn’t have the mental capacity for planning a siege, but he did inspire and encourage it, as did several others who peddled his lies. It was his cultist followers who planned it on social media and chat rooms.

    That’s the greater danger, these delusional insurrectionists, white nationalists. Reports are they are planning similar assaults on capitols in all 50 states on January 20. They want to spark a second Civil War, not to end slavery but rather to demand fealty to an incompetent and corrupt autocrat. Think about that.

    Yet these MAGA fiends are arguing the Senate trial will provide Trump with the opportunity to prove election fraud and theft?

    https://hotair.com/archives/allahpundit/2021/01/13/new-spin-trump-uses-senate-trial-prove-voter-fraud/

    So now they’re thankful for impeachment, because it gives them the opportunity to prove their lies are true? It’s insane.

    How much more insurrection, violence against our government officials, death threats, are these people willing to promote?

    These are difficult times, because the Republican party has gone off the rails. It is a fractured party, tearing itself and the country apart. This is unacceptable.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  207. That doesn’t lead to Trump getting another term; that leads to a very short Civil War, which they’d lose.

    I can’t see an argument for a pre-planned large scale rational plan for a coup involving multiple congressmen giving people recon tours and federal officers being in on it. A rational plan to stage some sort of sit-in, maybe. An smaller uncoordinated irrational plan for who knows what? Sure, but there’s no way a group of rational people sat down and used the underpants gnome’s plan for a coup. In a rational group there’d have to be at least one jack-a$$ like me constantly saying “nope, it doesn’t work like that”.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/13/2021 @ 8:07 pm

    Many of the people arrested appear to believe the Q-Anon stuff.
    It’s very possible that their plan will seem ridiculous to anyone that doesn’t share their demented priors.

    If you assume that Trump has evidence of massive crimes being committed by all of his political opponents and that he has been working hard in secret to round them all up at one time what the did makes more sense.

    Add in a few other beliefs
    -The election was determined by fraud.
    -States that went for Biden because of fraud had sent alternate sets of electors.
    -The VP has the legal authority to pick which slate will be counted.
    -Congress can throw out the fraudulent results and pick new ones.
    -If Pence dies Trump can appoint a new VP, like Flynn or Pompeo who will do the right thing.

    If all that’s true then what they did makes more sense.

    These people are nuts and believe crazy things. Trump tells them to believe some of it directly. Leaders that Trump endorses (Flynn, Wood, Powell etc) tell them the rest of it.

    It’s easy to assume that the guy who says; “I don’t know if it would be better to run Pelosi over with my truck or put a bullet in her head” is just engaging in over heated online rhetoric. But when that same guy is part of a mob that breaks into the capital and is photographed with a gun and flex cuffs on the floor of the house it becomes a lot more serious.

    Time123 (36651d)

  208. 225. asset (3fbce6) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:59 pm

    Seditionist copperheads congressmen paul gosar, andy biggs and mo brooks should read up on the 14th amendment section 3 and their lawyers.

    Andy Biggs claimed that Ali Alexander, one of the leaders “Stop the Steal” was lying about him:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/politics/republicans-capitol-riot.html

    And in a separate video, Ali Alexander, a far-right activist and conspiracy theorist who emerged as a leader of Stop the Steal, claimed that he, along with Mr. Brooks, Mr. Gosar and Representative Andy Biggs of Arizona, had set the Jan. 6 event in motion.

    “We four schemed up of putting maximum pressure on Congress while they were voting,” Mr. Alexander said in a since-deleted video, “so that who we couldn’t rally, we could change the hearts and the minds of Republicans who were in that body, hearing our loud roar from outside.”

    A spokesman for Mr. Biggs denied in a statement on Monday that the lawmaker had had any role in organizing the rally, and said he had focused his efforts on working “within the confines of the law and established precedent to restore integrity to our elections.” “Congressman Biggs is not aware of hearing of or meeting Mr. Alexander at any point — let alone working with him to organize some part of a planned protest on Jan. 6,” said the spokesman, Daniel Stefanski. “He did not have any contact with protesters or rioters, nor did he ever encourage or foster the rally or protests on Jan. 6.”

    Representative Paul Gosar of Arizona may have known more, and Representative Mo Brooks even more. (But even in his mall speech, he merely called for taking down names and kicking axx”)

    Ali Alexander may have been laying off blame on the wrong people, to shield others. I would look at whoever decided that the January 6 protest needed a separate website, to be called wildprotest.com Because that would be an important lead.

    And then maybe to find out to whom that name was explained and how t was explained because different people might have been given different explanations.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  209. The House gerbils have to deal with a different numerical reality. They don’t get a 4.5 million voter turnout like we saw in the Georgia Senate race. They get a 77,000 voter turnout and the winner is the one who got 44,000 to their opponents’ 33,000, like Marjorie Taylor Greene in the same state. Or to put it another way, they’re not only serohw, they’re cheap serohw.

    nk (1d9030)

  210. Time123 (36651d) — 1/14/2021 @ 6:07 am

    Add in a few other beliefs

    -The election was determined by fraud.
    -States that went for Biden because of fraud had sent alternate sets of electors.

    I think the belief was more that a state could, and that Giuliani or others were o the verge of getting them to, or that if they gained a little more time, they could. You can get that from the words and the tweets of Donald Trump.

    https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6

    By the way, Pennsylvania has now seen all of this. They didn’t know because it was so quick. They had a vote, they voted, but now they see all this stuff. It’s all come to light. Doesn’t happen that fast. And they want to re certify their votes. They want to re certify. But the only way that can happen is if Mike Pence agrees to send it back.

    Mike Pence has to agree to send it back. And many people in Congress want it sent back, and take of what you’re doing. Let’s say you don’t do it. Somebody says, “Well, we have to obey the constitution.” And you are, because you’re protecting our country and you’re protecting the constitution, so you are. But think of what happens. Let’s say they’re stiffs and they’re stupid people. And they say, “Well, we really have no choice.” Even though Pennsylvania and other states want to redo their votes, they want to see the numbers. They already have the numbers. Go very quickly and they want to redo their legislature because many of these votes were taken as I said, because it wasn’t approved by their legislature. That in itself is illegal and then you have the scam and that’s all of the things that we’re talking about. But think of this: if you don’t do that, that means you will have a president of the United States for four years, with his wonderful son.

    You will have a president who lost all of these states, or you will have a president to put it another way, who was voted on by a bunch of stupid people who lost all of these things. You will have an illegitimate president, that’s what you’ll have. And we can’t let that happen. These are the facts that you won’t hear from the fake news media. It’s all part of the suppression effort. They don’t want to talk about it. ..

    Now we know that Trump couldn’t have possibly believed that anyone important in Pennsylvania wanted to rescind and redo their certification, but maybe he didn’t know how big a lie it was.

    It is so out of line with reality that I have to feel that Trump was being lied to.

    Because we haven’t heard anything about any plan to get a substitute slate of electors sent from Pennsylvania. And while I know some fake electors voted in Arizona I didn’t hear about any place else.

    I can’t find Trump’s later tweets yet: http://www.trumptwitterarchive.com (This seems to go only until November 7)

    One idea is that Trump wanted to throw the election into the House of Representatives (this would be under the theory that 270 votes were still needed even if less than 538 were cast) which would then elect him under the special voting system used. After the Civil War some state’s electoral votes were not counted but U. S.Grant would have won a majority, both in 1868 and in 1872, even if a majority f the potential electoral votes was needed, so there’s no precedent. Also, in 1872, Three electoral votes from Georgia that were cast for the deceased Horace Greeley were rejected by Congress.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  211. I think the belief was more that a state could, and that Giuliani or others were o the verge of getting them to, or that if they gained a little more time, they could. You can get that from the words and the tweets of Donald Trump.

    Yeah that Georgia call was partly intended to make Raffenberger think a bunch of other states were going to reverse outcomes, so he might as well avoid the “great risk” he was taking in not reversing as well. It was hopefully and very probably a total lie, because Trump lies constantly. Patterico is right. This right here was the most neatly wrapped impeachment you could ever see, and though the riot is a more direct branch vs branch attack and I get her focus on that of course, she should have impeached for this too.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  212. Bari Weiss is back and still good. Good points about Big Tech and how thin the veneer our civilization really is.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  213. Poaaible beliefs by some of the people arrested:

    Congress can throw out the fraudulent results and pick new ones.

    I don;t think they had that. Reject votes and choose among competing slates but not Congress pick them itself. The delay they wanted to get was supposedly going to buy time so as to allow states to belatedly change their electors. But no actual plan like that seems to have come to light, although Trump and Giuliani seemed to think it existed.

    -If Pence dies Trump can appoint a new VP, like Flynn or Pompeo who will do the right thing.

    Didn’t hear about this. Did you?

    Everyone knows it requires a majority vote in both houses of Congress to name a new vice president. They maybe wanted to hang Mike Pence just to stop the process. (but Congress can use the president pro tem, Chuck Grassley, if the vice president s not there))

    They apparently didn’t think of the idea of stealing the boxes containing the Electoral vote results, but someone in charge of arrangements did, because they got all the mahogany boxes out of the House chamber safely. It would have taken several days to replace them.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  214. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/14/2021 @ 6:52 am

    Yeah that Georgia call was partly intended to make Raffenberger think a bunch of other states were going to reverse outcomes, so he might as well avoid the “great risk” he was taking in not reversing as well. It was hopefully and very probably a total lie, because Trump lies constantly.

    Which would mean that Trump was operating on the basis of a thin hope that he’d succeed in all the states he needed.

    Answer the objection he anticipated that it wouldn’t matter even if they did it, by telling each state official he talked to that he’d succeed elsewhere. (Maybe he’d get an inside straight.)

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  215. One Congresswoman has claimed she saw members leading insurrectionists on a “reconnaissance” tour of the Capitol on January 5, the day before the insurrection.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I’d be cautious about this one. But if it’s true . . . oh my.

    Oh, it may be true.

    But if any persons used it for “reconnaissance” did the members of Congress who gave them tours understand what they were doing? And it could be that one did and one didn’t.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  216. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/13/2021 @ 5:48 pm

    I’m really tired of this. We’re past the point of intellectual curiosity. Stamp it out, whatever it is, ASAP.

    Has the talk of speech suppression gone to your head? Do you feel in charge?

    frosty (f27e97)

  217. It was the first week of a new Congress. There were a lot of “reconnaissances” for the newly elected and even some of the re-elected, and their staffs, family members, and favored supporters. Anyway, it should not be that difficult to check through the visitors’ logs if they want to take it that far, which I doubt they do, it’s better as a general smear floating out there tarring every House Republican.

    nk (1d9030)

  218. 215.

    How did Heine see it? How, a hundred years before Hitler, did he possess the terrible vision that “a play would be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll”?

    Not before World War II, but before World War I.

    World War I was a Germany without morality – World War II just added insanity to it.

    You migh also say the wars of Bismark, which only came to an end because if what Bismark called the most important fact of the 19th century – that England and America spoke the same language.

    Great Britain would not allow France to be conquered and the United Sates would be sympathetic to England. So it had to end in 1871 and Germany had to pull back from France, taking only Alsace and Lorraine and a steep tribute.

    Until a eew generation f military professionals arose in Germany who were stupid. Let’s hop there are not similar peple these days in China or North Korea.

    How did Heine know? Because it was true.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  219. After [John Brown’s] death Lincoln spoke of him as follows:

    “John Brown’s effort was peculiar. It was not a slave insurrection. It was an attempt by white men to get up a revolt among slaves in which the slaves refused to participate. In fact, it was so absurd that the slaves, with all their ignorance, saw plainly enough it could not succeed. That affair, in its philosophy, corresponds with the many attempts related in history at the assassination of kings and emperors. An enthusiast broods over the oppression of a people till he fancies himself commissioned by Heaven to liberate them. He ventures the attempt, which ends in little less than his own execution. Orsini’s attempt 51on Louis Napoleon and John Brown’s attempt at Harper’s Ferry were, in their philosophy, precisely the same. The eagerness to cast blame on Old England in the one case and on New England in the other does not disprove the sameness of the two things.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, American Problems, p.51

    The bolded part is what I think is the psychology of the schnitzel-slurpers. Not the Drumpfelschnitzel himself, who is nothing more than a spoiled baby who “want, want, want, waah!”.

    nk (1d9030)

  220. Bari Weiss is back and still good. Good points about Big Tech and how thin the veneer our civilization really is.

    That was a good read and there’s a lot there. With respect to things like Twitter banning Trump, Bari writes:

    We were promised the Internet would be better than democracy. But then it got privatized. Corporations own it. There is no online bill of rights. There is only the frenzy of the mob and fickle choices of a few billionaires.

    Please spare me the impoverished argument about the free market and private companies not being bound by the constitution. Barring businesses from using online payment systems; removing companies from the App Store; banning people from social media — these are the equivalent of telling people they can’t open a bank account or start a business or drive down a street.

    That’s a good soundbite, but it doesn’t really address the “impoverished argument” that someone like me would make at all. It just handwaves it away. It’s exactly as dumb as the “abolish police” people refusing to address what will happen in their world when a serious crime occurs. Who do you call? “We aren’t addressing that….”. Well, that’s all fine and dandy, but if they got their way something has to fill the void.

    So, the only pragmatic solution to letting the tech companies do what they please with things like Twitter is to have the government step in, right? I am really troubled by Twitter banning Trump as a matter of mores, but I think any solution that involves the government is far worse. It’s really easy to say “the companies shouldn’t do that!” without bothering to address “what happens next?”

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  221. Sammy, Based on what I’ve read and what people who claim to believe this stuff have told me both what you and I said are accurate. These people are in many cases barking mad. They’re conspiracy theorists with a dim grasp of facts. If one path isn’t right then surely it must be another similar path with slight differences.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  222. Johnny,

    This gives the game away. Please spare me the impoverished argument about the free market and private companies not being bound by the constitution.

    They have no use for individual choice if that choice produces a transient outcome they dislike.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  223. JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/14/2021 @ 8:12 am

    The part where I agree with Weiss is that maybe there should be an online bill of rights. Even if Parler has a bunch of violent, racist nutballs, the power to deny the entire platform is something to be concerned about.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  224. To that, JohnnyAgreeable, I’ll add that I am all too aware how the market creates demand. Twitter is a necessity only to the people whom it has convinced that it is a necessity, 330 million, less than 5% of the world’s population. I don’t have it, I never had it, and the fact that it is a loss to Trump and his gerbils is no loss to me. Facebook et al, same thing.

    nk (1d9030)

  225. Paul Miller: We knew, but I think the better title is “we were warned”. The final paragraphs.

    If, as is more likely, a pundit did encounter these warnings but simply didn’t believe them, obviously that pundit got it wrong. That’s OK; we often get things wrong. But to then claim “no one could have known” is a bald-faced falsehood. If you drive over a cliff after racing past a crowd yelling at you to stop, surprise at the ground rushing up to meet you is likely not your main reaction, nor is “no one could have known this cliff was here.”

    To keep driving in the face of the crowds yelling about the cliff ahead, and then to condemn the ground for failing to stay beneath you or the crowd for not yelling louder, is a sign of intellectual stubbornness and hubris. It is to purposefully shift blame away from your own choices and past analysis and onto reality for failing to conform to expectations. It is to exempt yourself from what you expect of everyone else: accountability. To do so as a public intellectual is a dereliction of duty, a refusal to take responsibility for your own words and arguments and the effect they have in the world.

    It is understandable to get things wrong—we all do—but subsequently waving away those errors, shifting blame, rewriting history, ignoring the path that brought us to this place is to act in bad faith. If you defended, explained, and justified every step of the way and then condemned the destination, your condemnation is hollow and cheap. Public commentary relies on an implicit contract with the reader: Listen to me because I have insightful things to say. But if, when proven wrong, you have no insight into why or how you went wrong—if you explain it away by claiming, falsely, that no one could have gotten it right—it is unclear what value that contract holds for anyone.

    If instead you don’t like where the path has led you, you may want to reexamine the path and the choices you made to keep driving on it, not act shocked that the road signs proved accurate. Put on the brakes. Stop the car. Put it in reverse and go back to ask directions, because you are lost and probably should not be driving right now. When faced with an avoidable error of judgment of this magnitude, the appropriate response is not surprise or bafflement, because nothing surprising happened. The more appropriate response is ruefulness, regret, chagrin, or sheepishness, followed by a change of heart. Christians call it repentance.

    I doubt that the many in the thrall of Trump will get to that “appropriate response”, because that would require acknowledgement that Trump was wrong and dishonest about practically everything.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  226. Qidiot; “There are elephants hiding in the tree tops.”
    Normal person: “I don’t see any.”
    Qidiot; “They’re really good at hiding.”

    Time123 (66d88c)

  227. Time123, I saw this and remembered our conversation:

    Quote Tweet
    Mark
    @MarkFooterman
    Jan 12
    A very talented friend of mine, who interned w/ @GOPLeader, and at 20 was one of the highest ranked staffers in the Trump campaign, was just fired from his new job when client found out he worked for Trump. He now can’t afford rent. Still think cancel culture isn’t that serious?

    I’m not going to ask if this is legal and surely this guy will land on his feet and this is just right-wing whining and it’s not cancel culture. But do you think this is right and is there a limit?

    A better link to the guy fired and the story is here for anyone that wants to bathe in all of the moral preening and virtue signaling.

    frosty (f27e97)

  228. Johnny,

    This gives the game away. Please spare me the impoverished argument about the free market and private companies not being bound by the constitution.

    They have no use for individual choice if that choice produces a transient outcome they dislike.

    Indeed. Weiss argues that people are overwhelmingly cheering Twitter’s decision because they don’t like Trump. Almost certainly true! But Weiss is pretty reliably left wing in general, so I’ll hazard a guess that she thinks it’s better to have the government step in to protect the rest of us. In that sense, the outcome she dislikes is too many people being out from under the government’s thumb. No thanks!

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  229. I’ll add that I am all too aware how the market creates demand. Twitter is a necessity only to the people whom it has convinced that it is a necessity, 330 million, less than 5% of the world’s population. I don’t have it, I never had it, and the fact that it is a loss to Trump and his gerbils is no loss to me. Facebook et al, same thing.

    Yeah, saying that Twitter is just as important as being able to drive down the street is attaching way too much significance to Twitter and Facebook and the like.

    Internet access itself, sure. In today’s day and age, it’s almost a necessity for living day to day. Being able to access the Internet itself is much more comparable to common carrier rationales, so if Verizon or whatever were terminating accounts of people who fell on the wrong side of Twitter’s daily/hourly wrath, that’d pose different issues IMO.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  230. Who forced Trump to become dependent on Twitter in the first place? Where’s his website with his servers? He claims to be rich enough to pay for it himself, and even if he isn’t he sure has raised the money many times over from his supporters.

    nk (1d9030)

  231. Internet access itself, sure. In today’s day and age, it’s almost a necessity for living day to day. Being able to access the Internet itself is much more comparable to common carrier rationales, so if Verizon or whatever were terminating accounts of people who fell on the wrong side of Twitter’s daily/hourly wrath, that’d pose different issues IMO.

    I agree.

    nk (1d9030)

  232. I find it quite odd that leftists – who show disdain for corporations and capitalism in general – are now the biggest cheerleaders for corporations making the rules when it comes to the internet, especially when it comes to speech.

    I’m pretty sure this will come back to bite them down the road. But they simply can’t help themselves right now.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  233. I am a leftist who thinks that free food from the government is the most important reason for governments to exist, but I would still let Walmart ban the ice cream lickers.

    nk (1d9030)

  234. I’m not going to ask if this is legal and surely this guy will land on his feet and this is just right-wing whining and it’s not cancel culture. But do you think this is right and is there a limit?

    No, I don’t think it’s right at all. But your inclusion of “right-wing whining” suggests you believe it’s a problem largely limited to leftists going after righties.

    So long as people are wedded to one side or the other of the “left vs right” divide, they’ll make every excuse under the sun for why it’s cool to wield social pressure as a sword but lament the lack of a shield when someone else does it to someone they like. It’s just a variation of “cancel culture” to stamp your feet and whine about the NFL allowing players to kneel in protest, as I know so many of my Trumpist friends and family did. Or want to see professors fired for saying things they don’t like, or boycott the Dixie Chicks because they said things about George Bush they didn’t like.

    To me, the proper answer to all this is more speech. From the thread, this guy is calling out the NHL and the company that hired him for bowing to pressure. I’m glad we know who did what (or, at this point anyway, have no reason to dispute that’s what happened). NHL season started yesterday and I had intended to buy NHL.tv to watch games other than my local team. I’m going to send them a note saying I won’t be renewing this year based on this kind of nonsense. A small drop in the ocean to be sure, but if enough people commit to the idea that companies should rise above the wrath of Twitter or whatever, regardless of the politics of the target, we’d be in a different place.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  235. JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/14/2021 @ 8:12 am

    So, the only pragmatic solution to letting the tech companies do what they please with things like Twitter is to have the government step in, right? I am really troubled by Twitter banning Trump as a matter of mores, but I think any solution that involves the government is far worse. It’s really easy to say “the companies shouldn’t do that!” without bothering to address “what happens next?”

    Except we’ve already done that. We already do that constantly. We have entire federal agencies whose entire purpose is to tell companies they can’t do as they please. We’ve already stepped in and said “companies shouldn’t do that”. What’s more is we’ve already stepped in and said “companies must do that”. In both cases for versions of “that” you approve of. You are already in agreement with the thing you’re arguing against. The only real distinction is whether you approve of the “that”.

    All they need to do is (a) apply the rules consistently and (b) repeal 230 and ( c) remember that common carriers can’t ban speech that isn’t illegal. Leaving in 230 is arguing to continue interfering to protect these companies. It’s the opposite of not interfering.

    It’s ironic that countries like India and Germany, not so ironic for Australia, have seen this and are starting to have issues. Twitter has a history of siding with political parties and interfering in the democratic process.

    Time123 (66d88c) — 1/14/2021 @ 8:16 am

    Unless you are in favor of complete deregulation and actually allowing companies to do what they please with private property then this is exactly the basis of the “meh private property” response. It’s a response that is based on this specific situation and not an appeal to general principle.

    frosty (f27e97)

  236. I find it quite odd that leftists … are now the biggest cheerleaders for corporations making the rules

    It’s no odder than conservatives saying that media corporations should be nationalized, or that social-media platforms should be held responsible for “lies” about Trump posted by users, while Trump should have an absolute, unrestricted right to use those platforms to spread seditious and destructive lies as he pleases.

    It’s no odder than self-declared conservatives taking the position that people who talk about the importance of character in leadership are the real enemy.

    Reversals on principle to fit current circumstances are not all that odd in politics.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  237. Except we’ve already done that. We already do that constantly. We have entire federal agencies whose entire purpose is to tell companies they can’t do as they please. We’ve already stepped in and said “companies shouldn’t do that”. What’s more is we’ve already stepped in and said “companies must do that”. In both cases for versions of “that” you approve of. You are already in agreement with the thing you’re arguing against. The only real distinction is whether you approve of the “that”.

    I am? That’s news to me, and I consulted with myself–I’m right here, after all–and I reported back to myself that I’m not in favor of the thing I’m arguing against. You might find this strange, but it turns out I know much better what I’m in favor of than frosty.

    You’re doing this weird thing where if I’m in favor of something like regulating highway standards I must therefore be in favor of regulating everything, because I accept regulation in some scenarios.

    To your partial credit, you at least recognize that the “that” here might be different, but then you bulldoze right over any objections by saying it’s just so simple to do! I’m pretty sure Patterico is on record with saying that if 230 were repealed he’d immediately shut down the comments section, which is the only sensible response if that were to happen. I imagine the same would apply to tons of other things that I use and read on a daily basis, and ironically it means that Big Tech will only have MORE power because they’ll be the only ones able to afford to stay open.

    Finally, calling a social media company a “common carrier” is nonsensical, in my view. I’d accept that if you limited to the companies providing the internet access itself. But Twitter isn’t a “common carrier” of communication thoughts on the internet at all, as opposed to transmitting the data itself. The fact I’m writing this comment is the proof.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  238. JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/14/2021 @ 8:41 am

    Yeah, saying that Twitter is just as important as being able to drive down the street is attaching way too much significance to Twitter and Facebook and the like.

    I understand that you’re trying to go after the common carrier argument but I think you’re overstating this. No one is saying social media is the same as taxpayer-funded roads.

    frosty (f27e97)

  239. Chapman professor will retire after uproar over his speaking at Trump rally
    ……
    John Eastman, an endowed professor and constitutional law scholar at Chapman, spoke alongside Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani at the “Save America” rally Jan. 6, making the unsubstantiated claim that “secret folders” inside ballot-counting machines skewed both the presidential and Georgia Senate race results in Democrats’ favor.

    Chapman President Daniele Struppa said in a statement that the university and Eastman had reached an agreement and Eastman would retire immediately. Both parties agreed not to take any kind of legal action, including over claims of defamation, which Eastman had alleged.
    …….
    More than 160 Chapman faculty members had signed a letter calling for the university’s faculty senate, provost, president and law school dean to take action against Eastman, including stripping him of his endowed professorship and removing him from teaching students.

    Struppa had rejected demands to fire Eastman, saying that while Eastman’s actions and statements were in “direct opposition to the values and beliefs of our institution,” he was its president, not its “Supreme Leader,” and appropriate processes for investigating the actions of faculty must be followed.
    ……..
    But, he said, the faculty members who signed the letter calling for his termination had “created such a hostile environment for me that I no longer wish to be a member of the Chapman faculty.”

    He called the letter “defamatory” and said the claims he made at the rally were factual. He also said it was “scurrilous” to claim he had participated in a riot.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  240. Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy.

    Question: Who made the phrase “You’re fired!” famous?
    A. Napoleon’s cannoneer.
    B. Mrs. O’Leary’s cow.
    C. Cape Canaveral Mission Control.
    D. Donald Trump.

    nk (1d9030)

  241. JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/14/2021 @ 9:05 am

    No, I don’t think it’s right at all. But your inclusion of “right-wing whining” suggests you believe it’s a problem largely limited to leftists going after righties.

    I’m just trying to save time by foreclosing most of the usual responses.

    So long as people are wedded to one side or the other of the “left vs right” divide, they’ll make every excuse under the sun for why it’s cool to wield social pressure as a sword but lament the lack of a shield when someone else does it to someone they like. It’s just a variation of “cancel culture” to stamp your feet and whine about the NFL allowing players to kneel in protest, as I know so many of my Trumpist friends and family did. Or want to see professors fired for saying things they don’t like, or boycott the Dixie Chicks because they said things about George Bush they didn’t like.

    In the cases, you’ve cited individuals made personal decisions and whatever actions were taken were done because of market forces. With social media they’re taking actions against their interest and in the face of market response. This is a little more than social pressure. Numerous members of Congress have called on Twitter to suppress speech, KH explicitly did it during the debates. A lot of the calls are done within the context of “these social media companies better do something or we’ll have to look into regulations” and “nice market niche and monopoly you’ve got there, it’d be a shame if someone looked into that”. The tech giants have been captured by one side of the political spectrum, they’re trying to hide behind all sorts of fig-leaves, and people on that side of the spectrum are trying their best to help them.

    frosty (f27e97)

  242. Unless you are in favor of complete deregulation and actually allowing companies to do what they please with private property then this is exactly the basis of the “meh private property” response. It’s a response that is based on this specific situation and not an appeal to general principle.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/14/2021 @ 9:08 am

    As a general rule we should let people do as they please with their property. As with all general rules there are exceptions to this. Recognizing that there are situations where other rules should take priority doesn’t invalidate the rule, it just acknowledges that there are exceptions.

    Your proposed solution, making it easier to sue platforms who make moderation decisions for things 3rd parties say, doesn’t seem to advance any worthy goal I can see. I disagree with you that the outcome would be more free speech. I think the likelier outcome would be a reduction in places that allow comments. Patterico as stated previously that as soon as he can be sued for the things we say in the comments he’s closing the comments. There are already online places where you can say whatever you like. They’re not popular in part because they’re unpleasant. I like this place because I like the restrictions on how we have to make our points.

    GAB is still up and running.
    Parler has already announce a new hosting service.

    I think that the current restriction in transient an that market forces will address it. But I understand we disagree about that.

    Time123 (80b471)

  243. In the cases, you’ve cited individuals made personal decisions and whatever actions were taken were done because of market forces. With social media they’re taking actions against their interest and in the face of market response. This is a little more than social pressure. Numerous members of Congress have called on Twitter to suppress speech, KH explicitly did it during the debates. A lot of the calls are done within the context of “these social media companies better do something or we’ll have to look into regulations” and “nice market niche and monopoly you’ve got there, it’d be a shame if someone looked into that”. The tech giants have been captured by one side of the political spectrum, they’re trying to hide behind all sorts of fig-leaves, and people on that side of the spectrum are trying their best to help them.

    Democrats and Republicans both want the government to have the ability to coerce social media companies to only allow the correctspeech.

    Here are the top 10 most interacted Facebook posts yesterday.

    The top-performing link posts by U.S. Facebook pages in the last 24 hours are from:

    1. Ben Shapiro
    2. Dan Bongino
    3. ForAmerica
    4. Ben Shapiro
    5. Dan Bongino
    6. Robert Reich
    7. CNN
    8. Dan Bongino
    9. Dinesh D’Souza
    10. Dinesh D’Souza

    Time123 (80b471)

  244. Question: Who wanted to repeal Section 230, which said repeal could have put Twitter out of business, so badly that he vetoed a defense bill because it did not include the repeal?
    A. Napoleon’s cannoneer.
    B. Mrs. O’Leary’s cow.
    C. Cape Canaveral Mission Control.
    D. Donald Trump.

    nk (1d9030)

  245. Time123, I saw this and remembered our conversation:

    Quote Tweet
    Mark
    @MarkFooterman
    Jan 12
    A very talented friend of mine, who interned w/ @GOPLeader, and at 20 was one of the highest ranked staffers in the Trump campaign, was just fired from his new job when client found out he worked for Trump. He now can’t afford rent. Still think cancel culture isn’t that serious?

    I’m not going to ask if this is legal and surely this guy will land on his feet and this is just right-wing whining and it’s not cancel culture. But do you think this is right and is there a limit?

    A better link to the guy fired and the story is here for anyone that wants to bathe in all of the moral preening and virtue signaling.

    I saw that story.

    as you said, I’m sure this guy will land on his feet. At this point in time the common perception of Trump is very negative and people don’t want to associate with people who have held positions of authority in Trump’s political organization.

    But if I understand the timeline correctly, he wasn’t fired for being a conservative, he was fired because he worked for a Candidate that might have just incited a riot that resulted in the death of a police officer. Are you sure his is cancel culture? What’s the working definition for that?

    Time123 (66d88c)

  246. What we are seeing, comrades, is the enablers of a spoiled baby trying to elevate that baby’s whims and appetites to questions of principle with false analogies, fear-mongering, whaboutisms and whatifisms, and smoke and mirrors. That is all we are seeing.

    nk (1d9030)

  247. But if I understand the timeline correctly, he wasn’t fired for being a conservative, he was fired because he worked for a Candidate that might have just incited a riot that resulted in the death of a police officer. Are you sure his is cancel culture?

    DJT was frequently posting nasty, mendacious, inflammatory stuff on Twitter and Facebook for years. The execs didn’t say No more until his inflammatory lies resulted in a seditious attack on the legislature — and they explained their reasons for it. Then the Trumpers all jumped up in faux outrage, saying “They’re censoring conservative ideas! This is like Stalin or Mao!” No it isn’t.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  248. Good news, they arrested the terrorist who was carrying the confederate flag.

    https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/534251-man-photographed-carrying-confederate-flag-in-capitol-arrested

    Time123 (66d88c)

  249. @ 249 nk — exactly. But maybe a bit more.

    Trumpers haven’t just said we need to indulge Trump and overlook his flaws because no one is perfect. They packaged his amorality as a higher form of virtue, the gold standard of heroic patriotism, a new and improved model for great leadership. They said that the men of good character were losers, or worse. They ascribed base motives to anyone who insisted that character still matters and who warned that putting a pathologically selfish man in a position of great power and responsibility was likely to have damaging consequences.

    They chose to remake the GOP and conservatism in the image of Trump, very much including his flaws.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  250. DJT was frequently posting nasty, mendacious, inflammatory stuff on Twitter and Facebook for years. The execs didn’t say No more until his inflammatory lies resulted in a seditious attack on the legislature — and they explained their reasons for it. Then the Trumpers all jumped up in faux outrage, saying “They’re censoring conservative ideas! This is like Stalin or Mao!” No it isn’t.

    Radegunda (20775b) — 1/14/2021 @ 10:15 am

    It’s easy to approve of an action like this when you agree with it. But just remember, it can and will be applied to you when you say something the overlords at Facebook and Twitter don’t like.

    Remember – the Ayatollah frequently issues death threats against Jews on his twitter handle. The Ayatollah’s policies in Iraq and Syria have killed thousands of Sunni Arabs.

    But hey, he’s not Trump so I guess he gets a free pass.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  251. You said it better than me, Radegunda.

    nk (1d9030)

  252. “No it isn’t.”

    Exactly. The President can call a press conference or ask for TV air time….or go on any number of TV or radio shows or podcasts to get his message out. He doesn’t have a right to abuse Twitter…and shouldn’t. He just needs to GO AWAY.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  253. Speaking of the spoiled baby: a WH insider said that aides are now much more vulnerable to Trump’s wrath because he can’t vent his rage on Twitter.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  254. The section 230 thing is misunderstood. Trump’s efforts to get rid of it are totally fake.

    Trump wanted special treatment, special favors, to get away with nonsense. He found something twitter, facebook, and the rest really need, and he threatened it. It’s not some sophisticated analysis of freedom. It’s ‘nice shop you have there’.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  255. Remember – the Ayatollah frequently issues death threats against Jews on his twitter handle. The Ayatollah’s policies in Iraq and Syria have killed thousands of Sunni Arabs.

    And yes, twitter is being absurd. Granted, Trump has specifically used Twitter to bash twitter, in a way that is a credible threat to their business model. And Trump has set back the cause of democracy and stability in a way no Baathist or Ayatollah could ever dream.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  256. JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/14/2021 @ 9:19 am

    I am? That’s news to me, and I consulted with myself–I’m right here, after all–and I reported back to myself that I’m not in favor of the thing I’m arguing against. You might find this strange, but it turns out I know much better what I’m in favor of than frosty.

    Yes, the basis for your argument isn’t the general principle and you’ve got some embedded contradictions. Consulting the source and just rechecking the conclusion isn’t going to help.

    You’re doing this weird thing where if I’m in favor of something like regulating highway standards I must therefore be in favor of regulating everything, because I accept regulation in some scenarios.

    It isn’t necessary to move over to highway standards (public property) and now you’re overstating my argument. In fact, the closer version of my argument is that I’m saying to be consistent you need to argue for deregulating everything.

    Are you against “forcing” private businesses to serve people based on race? We carved that out just fine and it was pretty simple to do. It might have been hard work doing it but the rule is pretty simple. Saying this is different because we’ve carved it out is proving my point, i.e. we interfered with private property just fine. Saying it’s the right thing to do isn’t using the general principle at all. If you agree that we can’t interfere with private property the consistent answer is that we can’t force businesses to serve people based on race.

    I’m pretty sure Patterico is on record with saying that if 230 were repealed he’d immediately shut down the comments section, which is the only sensible response if that were to happen.

    He wouldn’t have to. He already exercises enough control via moderation to be acting consistent with a publisher. He may choose to and give that as a reason but I don’t agree that it’s the only sensible response.

    I imagine the same would apply to tons of other things that I use and read on a daily basis, and ironically it means that Big Tech will only have MORE power because they’ll be the only ones able to afford to stay open.

    I could be mistaken but I think companies that already act as publishers, e.g. newspapers, etc., are already held to the same online standards as the offline versions of their product. But, if you agree with letting market forces make the decision and not interfering in private property then so what? Section 230 is social media trying to have it both ways.

    Finally, calling a social media company a “common carrier” is nonsensical, in my view. I’d accept that if you limited to the companies providing the internet access itself. But Twitter isn’t a “common carrier” of communication thoughts on the internet at all, as opposed to transmitting the data itself.

    I’m not saying they are common carriers. I’m saying they shouldn’t get 230 protection and be able to take the best of the carrier/publisher distinction with none of the restrictions.

    The fact I’m writing this comment is the proof.

    Can you elaborate? How is your comment here proof that Twitter isn’t a common carrier? Being a common carrier isn’t a natural designation. It doesn’t just arise fully grown. It’s a designation that exists at law, i.e. we decide what is and isn’t a common carrier. We could decide tomorrow that pizza delivery men are common carriers and establish the required framework for governing them.

    frosty (f27e97)

  257. Time123 (66d88c) — 1/14/2021 @ 9:54 am

    Are you sure his is cancel culture? What’s the working definition for that?

    I expressly said this wasn’t about cancel culture, whether it was legal, etc. I’m not sure I have any idea what cancel culture is. That was copied over from the original and then I called it out it.

    Do you think this is right and is there a limit?

    frosty (f27e97)

  258. Harold N. Bornstein, Trump’s Former Personal Physician, Dies at 73
    ….
    Loquacious, hirsute and eccentric, Dr. Bornstein, a gastroenterologist, was Mr. Trump’s personal physician from 1980 to 2017. He had inherited Mr. Trump as a patient from his father, Dr. Jacob Bornstein, with whom he shared a medical practice on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, at Park Avenue and 78th Street.

    When Mr. Trump was elected president in 2016, Dr. Bornstein had hoped to be named White House physician and suggested as much to a longtime Trump assistant. But he was expelled from the Trump orbit after he disclosed to The Times that the president was taking medication to make his hair grow.
    ……
    ……In response to questions about his own health, he ordered Dr. Bornstein to issue “a full medical report.” Mr. Trump predicted that although he would be 70 when he took office, the oldest president ever to be inaugurated for the first time, the report would show that the state of his health was “perfection.”

    He soon released a four-paragraph letter signed by Dr. Bornstein saying that his blood pressure and unspecified lab test results were “astonishingly excellent,” and that his strength and stamina were “extraordinary.”

    Using hyperbole more often associated with Mr. Trump than with the medical profession, the letter added, “If elected, Mr. Trump, I can state unequivocally, will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency.”
    …….
    In a series of interviews with The Times in 2017, he said that President Trump was taking a prostate-related drug, Propecia, to promote hair growth — the same drug that Dr. Bornstein himself was taking to maintain his own shoulder-length locks.
    …….
    Never reveal the secrets of the Wizard. Bornstein had better looking hair than Trump.

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  259. Time123 (66d88c) — 1/14/2021 @ 9:54 am

    Are you sure his is cancel culture? What’s the working definition for that?

    I expressly said this wasn’t about cancel culture, whether it was legal, etc. I’m not sure I have any idea what cancel culture is. That was copied over from the original and then I called it out it.

    Do you think this is right and is there a limit?

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/14/2021 @ 10:50 am

    Sorry i misunderstood you regarding CC.

    It’s not what I would have done but the NHL is free to manage they’re brand as they see fit.

    If you mean do I think their should be a limit? Not one set by the government. I think pushback by others will be the proper check.

    Time123 (80b471)

  260. Man Who Allegedly Threw Fire Extinguisher at Police Arrested on Federal Charges

    A retired firefighter from Pennsylvania was arrested Thursday morning for allegedly throwing a fire extinguisher that hit three police officers at the pro-Trump riot at the U.S. Capitol as captured on video, U.S. officials said.

    Robert Sanford of Chester, Pa., faces three federal felony charges including assaulting a police officer after he was allegedly identified as the person who lobbed a fire extinguisher on the west side of the Capitol, at around 2:30 pm, as the mob crashed past a thin line of Capitol police officers and stormed towards the building on Jan. 6.

    In an affidavit filed in connection with Mr. Sanford’s arrest, an FBI special agent described the mob as “insurrectionists.” “The video was shot from an elevated position and showed an area of the Capitol with a large group of police officers surrounded on at least three sides by a group of insurrectionists,” the statement of facts said. It also described the object hitting all three officers in the head, including one who was not wearing a helmet.
    …..
    The extinguisher that Mr. Sanford allegedly threw is separate from the one that killed Officer Brian Sicknick, who was also struck in the head with a fire extinguisher during the unrest and died from his wounds, officials said.

    …….A friend of Mr. Sanford’s tipped off the FBI to his involvement, the document said, adding that he was around 55-years old and had recently retired from the Chester Fire Department.

    The tipster relayed to the FBI in an interview that Mr. Sanford had told his friend that he had traveled to Washington, D.C., with a group of people on a bus, that the group had gone to the White House and listened to President Trump’s speech “and then had followed the President’s instructions and gone to the Capitol,” the statement said.
    …….
    Mr. Sanford faces charges of using a deadly weapon in a restricted area, which carries a potential 10 year prison term, disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds and obstructing law enforcement.
    >>>>>>>>>>

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  261. @253 — Hoi Polloi —

    It’s easy to approve of an action like this when you agree with it.

    First, that’s a tautology.
    Second, I wasn’t taking a position on the action, but noting the fallaciousness of the Trumper claim that it’s a case of censoring conservative ideas as such, or censoring Trump just because he’s Trump. That is patently not true.

    I don’t shade my moral judgments according to whether the subject is Trump or someone else. The Trumpers do, and they have demanded that everyone else do likewise when they say things like “Let Trump be Trump!” They want him to be morally and legally untouchable.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  262. Sammy @17-
    No, Joe Biden Should Not Pardon Donald Trump

    Former FBI Director James Comey declared yesterday that he believes Joe Biden should consider granting clemency for President Donald Trump “as part of the healing of the country.” Just as I have long opposed self-pardons as an abuse of presidential power, I also have long opposed such pardons by their presidential successors. Comey is echoing the Ford rationale used in the Nixon pardon, which I continue to view as the wrong decision. Impeachments go to the status of presidents as the officeholders. Indictments go to their status as individuals. Indeed, I have long believed that presidents can be indicted while in office, including both President Bill Clinton and President Donald Trump. Comey stated “I obviously think he belongs in jail but I don’t think pursuing that is in the best interest of the entire nation.”

    I fail to see the logic of the Ford position. To use Comey’s words, if “he belongs in jail,” he should go to jail. The notion that our country cannot handle the criminal prosecution of a former president borders on slander. If a president is a criminal, he belongs in jail. In Nixon’s case, he rejected the need for a pardon. Yet, Ford prevents a trial on Nixon’s culpability in the crimes of Watergate — crimes which sent various individuals to jail. That was not a victory for the rule of law or the country.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  263. I don;t like the impeachment article because it contributes to the notion that speech can be extremely dangerous. Donald Trump did not, of course, rile up the crowd, or anyone in the crowd even, to go berserk and enter restricted places. His statements over a longer period of time, that the election was stolen played a role, but only as background.

    It was not reasonably foreseeable that words such as: “if you don’t fight like hell you’re not going to have a country anymore.” would result in an unlawfully breach of and vandalism in the Capitol, and risk to the lives of law enforcement personnel, Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel, and interfere with the Joint Session’s constitutional duty to certify the results of the 2020 Presidential election.

    We know that because it was not, in fact, foreseen. They began to worry when people in the crowd outside the Capitol began acting up, and not when people started walking from the rally in President’s Park South (also called the Ellipse)

    I think the statement that the people Trump addressed were the same people who broke into the Capitol is so false that it amounts to disinformation. I don’t think anybody came to Ellipse with a noose and a gallows and pepper spray and colorful costumes and all the other things they had. This was not a spur of the moment thing – an event had been scheduled at the Capitol for 1 pm (originally 10 am but then the earlier rally near the White House was added)

    The fact that there was separate, albeit related, rally scheduled for 1 pm at the North East Drive of the Capitol:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20210106065650/https://wildprotest.com

    has gone into the memory hole.

    This was a rally whose program was not adhered to. (if it had one but it probably had one)

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  264. There was a prediction of violence – for the day before – completely separate and apart from anything Trump would say:

    https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ntuGWBfbcIoJ:https://monkeyviral.com/pro-trump-rally-expected-to-bring-chaos-violence-to-d-c-streets-while-congress-certifies-election/+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us (original website has been disabled – i had to get this from the Google cache)

    Pro-Trump rally expected to bring chaos, violence to D.C. streets while Congress certifies election

    January 5, 2021

    Notice to “the streets” not inside

    The “March to Save America” protest, organized under the auspices of Women for Trump, will begin Tuesday afternoon with a 1 PM “pre-rally” at Freedom Square, near the White House. In addition to a roster of official participants—largely such far-right organizations as the Tea Party Patriots and Turning Point USA—a large contingent of unofficial participants from street-brawling groups such as the Proud Boys is also expected, as is the inevitable violence associated with them.

    At both of the large pro-Trump rallies held in D.C. since the election—on November 14 and December 12—that contingent was responsible for daylong violence in the capital, including the burning of Black Lives Matter banners and the vandalization of African American churches, currently being investigated as a hate crime. Those crimes left the city’s Black community shaken, but determined to fight back.

    Some of the Republicans leading the effort to stop the certification of Biden’s electoral win have been encouraging similar violence at the coming rally, most notably Rep. Louie Gohmert of Texas, who told a Newsmax interviewer that the courts’ refusal to consider Texas’ lawsuit to overturn the election meant that “you gotta go the streets and be as violent as antifa and BLM.” (Gohmert made similar remarks at the November 12 “Million MAGA March” rally, suggesting that violent crowds in the streets should take down the government.)

    Trump himself fanned the flames when he tweeted last week: “Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!”

    Proud Boys national chairman Enrique Tarrio announced on Parler last week that men from his organization would not be wearing their traditional gold-trimmed polo shirts at the event. Instead, Tarrio said, “we will be blending in as one of you. You won’t see us. You’ll even think we are you.” He also hinted that some members might dress up as black-clad antifascists. (Tarrio was arrested by Metropolitan Police on Monday on charges related to his participation in the Proud Boys vandalization of churches on December 12.)

    One of the official event organizers, WildProtest.com, also intends to send protesters to the Capitol during the House and Senate votes to confirm the election results. “We the People must take to the US Capitol lawn and steps and tell Congress #DoNotCertify on #JAN6! Congress cannot certify this fraudulent Electoral College,” their website reads.

    The event has become a focus of concern for local officials. “My level of anxiety is high. My preparation is even more intense than that,” D.C. District Attorney Karl Racine told CBS News. The National Guard was also activated in advance of the event.

    D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser asked people to stay away from the city on Tuesday and Wednesday. “I am asking Washingtonians and those who live in the region to stay out of the downtown area on Tuesday and Wednesday and not to engage with demonstrators who come to our city seeking confrontation, and we will do what we must to ensure all who attend remain peaceful,” she tweeted.

    One of the churches attacked on December 12, Metropolitan AME, announced Monday that it was filing a lawsuit against the Proud Boys for their role in the vandalization. “The Proud Boys are NOT above the law,” tweeted Kristen Clarke of the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under the Law in making the announcement.

    None of this, however, has discouraged or dissuaded the rabid Trump fans planning to travel from around the country to attend the event. A bus tour featuring pro-Trump figures Diamond and Silk has been holding events in a variety of towns—such as Bowling Green, Kentucky; West Monroe, Louisiana; and Franklin, Tennessee—in order to drum up support for the march.

    But notice – the violence was predicted outside, not inside the Capitol.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  265. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/14/2021 @ 10:35 am

    The section 230 thing is misunderstood.

    Can you elaborate? Is this part of his plan to hide concentration camps or beat more cops to death?

    frosty (470cf8)

  266. The irony is that the alt-right benefits the most from Section 230. If Section 230 were repealed, sites such as Parler, Free Republic, Gab, TheDonald.win, Gateway Pundit, Conservative Treehouse, etc. would be sued out of existence by the people and organizations they have allowed to be defamed by their users.

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  267. frosty (f27e97) — 1/14/2021 @ 10:44 am

    I’m in the middle of some work that I need to finish, so unfortunately I won’t get to your comment for a while. Didn’t want you to think I was ignoring it.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  268. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:03 am

    the fallaciousness of the Trumper claim that it’s a case of censoring conservative ideas as such, … That is patently not true.

    The social media companies are taking action against a range of content remotely inconsistent with a very narrow political position. It’s not limited to Trump or calls for insurrection.

    It’s perfectly reasonable to be concerned about this independent of Trump.

    frosty (470cf8)

  269. Rip Murdock (80e6b4) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:40 am

    Then repeal it. That would make this entire discussion moot. If you’re right it’s a very good way to solve the problem. Defamation is a very well grounded legal area. I would absolutely love to see any of these neo-nazi sites be sued into the ground. That’s what happened with the KKK and it was glorious.

    Why protect Twitter from being sued for the same reason?

    frosty (470cf8)

  270. If you’re right it’s a very good way to solve the problem. ……

    I don’t think 230 is a problem, nor are the alt-right sites I listed. If you want to kill discussions on the Internet by all means repeal 230. Most websites (like PP, as well as media companies) would rather block the ability to post comments than deal with lawsuits.

    I was just pointing that their (and Trump’s) opposition to 230 is short-sighted and not well thought out. Like net neutrality. Does the alt-right really want to give Verizon or ATT the ability to block their websites unless they pay exorbitant fees? Probably not, but NN has been framed as government take over other Internet when it is the exact opposite.

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  271. Rip Murdock (80e6b4) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:40 am

    Then repeal it. That would make this entire discussion moot. If you’re right it’s a very good way to solve the problem. Defamation is a very well grounded legal area. I would absolutely love to see any of these neo-nazi sites be sued into the ground. That’s what happened with the KKK and it was glorious.

    Why protect Twitter from being sued for the same reason?

    frosty (470cf8) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:52 am

    Because I don’t want to see site like this ones sued into the ground by people who don’t like that our host won’t moderate the comment section to their liking. The trend lately seems to be to file performative and vexatious defamation claims in jurisdictions that have weak ant-SLAPP laws.

    Again, repealing section 230 isn’t going to make twitter or FB be fair to conservatives or champions of free speech.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  272. Time123 (66d88c) — 1/14/2021 @ 12:17 pm

    Again, repealing section 230 isn’t going to make twitter or FB be fair to conservatives or champions of free speech.

    That’s another way Trump was being manipulated.

    Maybe by Russia.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  273. Time123 (66d88c) — 1/14/2021 @ 12:17 pm

    Because I don’t want to see site like this ones sued into the ground by people who don’t like that our host won’t moderate the comment section to their liking.

    This is not a thing. If a site were held to the common carrier standard the only obligation would be to respond to a request to identify the other party and an obligation to take down a comment in response to a legitimate request. If a site were held to the publishing standard we’re also talking about an established legal framework. In both cases, the sites would have the option to remove content within a well-understood legal framework. We’re not talking about a random comment immediately resulting in a suit.

    But what people are saying when they make this analogy is that they want to have a conversation that they control. They would be able to do that if they moderated content as a publisher, i.e. we all agreed when we joined the site that we’re the unpaid staff of a publisher who has final editorial control. All we’re talking about here is convenience.

    The easiest thing is to make the producers of the context responsible as a publisher. Then I would be responsible for any defamation I put into comments and the hosts would only be liable for the content they actually post. But the site owner isn’t responsible beyond having to provide my information to a valid request and responding to a valid takedown request.

    The trend lately seems to be to file performative and vexatious defamation claims in jurisdictions that have weak ant-SLAPP laws.

    Are we talking about the same thing? How could this happen if 230 is protecting them? I don’t think this is very common and even if it is the cost-benefit just isn’t there. Sites like this would be fine and there’s no excuse to tolerate what’s going on with social media. Twitter knowingly allows actual threats of violence to remain online based on the political context.

    Again, repealing section 230 isn’t going to make twitter or FB be fair to conservatives or champions of free speech.

    Again, I don’t care about fairness for conservatives. I don’t consider myself a conservative. You might as well be telling me I’m not helping orphans in Africa (although I do care about orphans in Africa. It just seemed like the best example because of the whole clean your plate because of orphans in Africa thing). I care about consistency and consistency would at least be better for champions of free speech. Apply the same rules to everyone. If social media wants to regulate content make them responsible for doing so.

    frosty (f27e97)

  274. Rip Murdock (80e6b4) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:03 am

    A side story on that. A story started on Twitter that some other fireman was “the guy”. That ginned up a mob online that went offline and the guy needs police protection now because of the threat. Twitter, didn’t take any action to remove the calls for violence, incitement of violence, or coordination of violence against the guy. As far as I know, this is going down as a no-one was killed so it’s no big deal sort of thing.

    frosty (f27e97)

  275. INVESTIGATIONS REGARDING VIOLENCE AT THE CAPITOL

    Below is a list of defendants charged in federal court in the District of Columbia related to crimes committed at the U.S. Capitol in Washington, D.C, on Wednesday, Jan. 6, 2021.

    Every case is being prosecuted by the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia……
    …….

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  276. Dozens of people on FBI terrorist watch list came to D.C. the day of Capitol riot
    ……..
    The majority of the watch-listed individuals in Washington that day are suspected white supremacists whose past conduct so alarmed investigators that their names had been previously entered into the national Terrorist Screening Database, or TSDB, a massive set of names flagged as potential security risks, these people said. The watch list is larger and separate from the “no-fly” list the government maintains to prevent terrorism suspects from boarding airplanes, and those listed are not automatically barred from any public or commercial spaces, current and former officials said.

    The presence of so many watch-listed individuals in one place — without more robust security measures to protect the public — is another example of the intelligence failures preceding last week’s fatal assault that sent lawmakers running for their lives, some current and former law enforcement officials argued. …….
    ……
    It’s unclear whether any of the dozens of individuals already arrested for alleged crimes at the Capitol are on the terrorist watch list.
    ……
    Several law enforcement officials said they are shocked by the backgrounds of some individuals under investigation in connection with the Capitol riot, a pool of suspects that includes current and former law enforcement and military personnel as well as senior business executives and middle-aged business owners.
    ……
    The TSDB, often referred to within government as simply “the watch list,” is overseen by the FBI’s Terrorist Screening Center, which was created in the wake of the 9/11 attacks carried out by al-Qaeda. The watch list can be used as both an investigative and early warning tool, but its primary purpose is to help various government agencies keep abreast of what individuals seen as potential risks are doing and where they travel, according to people familiar with the work who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity because the work is sensitive.
    …….
    Before the Jan. 6 gathering of pro-Trump protesters, FBI agents visited a number of suspected extremists and advised them against traveling to the nation’s capital. Many complied, but according to people familiar with the sprawling investigation, dozens of others, whose names appear in the terrorist watch list, apparently attended, based on information reviewed by the FBI.

    Separately, while the FBI is hunting hundreds of rioting suspects who have dispersed back to their hometowns, federal agents are increasingly focused on alleged leaders, members, and supporters of the Proud Boys, a male-chauvinist group with ties to white nationalism, these people said.
    …….
    The Proud Boys participated in last week’s protests, and FBI agents are taking a close look at what roles, if any, their adherents may have had in organizing, directing or carrying out violence, according to people familiar with the matter.
    …..
    (The group’s chairman, Enrique) Tarrio told The Post on Wednesday that his group did not organize the Capitol siege.

    “If they think we were organizing going into the Capitol, they’re going to be sadly mistaken,” he said. “Our plan was to stay together as a group and just enjoy the day. We weren’t going to do a night march, anything like that. That’s it as far as our day.”
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  277. INVESTIGATIONS REGARDING VIOLENCE AT THE CAPITOL

    Some people charged with curfew violations are on that list even if they had been nowhere near the Capitol. One such killed himself after his wife and workplace were constant harassed by cretins working from a list like that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  278. Some people charged with curfew violations are on that list…..

    The word “curfew” does not appear in the entire document.

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  279. Serious question (yeah, right): What do you think is bothering Trump the most? That he has been impeached twice, or that he can’t tweet about it?

    nk (1d9030)

  280. @kevin@281 If you are talking about the man in Georgia, I don’t think that it is probable that he killed himself because of that. He was arrested Wednesday for unlawful entry and curfew violations, was charged and plead not-guilty Thursday, so he wouldn’t’ve gone into work until Friday at the soonest. He died Tuesday. There were other things going on there.

    Nic (896fdf)

  281. @nk 283 I’ll tell you what is bothering Trump most. It’s the damage to his brand name. His hotels, resorts and golf courses are losing money. He owes hundreds of millions in personally guaranteed loans to foreign creditors that are due within two years. Banks won’t lend him money. The list of businesses that won’t donate to Republicans is long.

    No one it going to invest in a Trump property. He can no longer brag or lie about his success on social media, as he’s been banned from Twitter, Facebook and YouTube. Network and cable stations are declining interviews.

    The Manhattan DA and the New York AG have been conducting investigations into the Trump Organization for the last two years. Charges of bank, wire, tax fraud, and illegal campaign contributions are pending.

    Those are state crimes, for which he cannot be pardoned. Once he’s out of office, a private citizen, let the prosecutions begin. That’s what bothers him most. Impeachment for the second time doesn’t bother him; conviction to bar him from holding any elected office might. But prosecutions for state crimes are what worries him, because these are serious charges that carry serious penalties, including jail time and/or heavy fines.

    He will be out of office on Jan. 20, so let the prosecutions begin. Not just in New York, but in other states–New Jersey, Illinois, Virginia, Florida, the District of Columbia. Hell, all over the world; everywhere someone has invested in a Trump property. They’re all losing money, and there will be a reckoning.

    Trump is going down hard. He never was a billionaire and he can’t pay off his debts. Selling the image of a successful CEO no longer works.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

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