Patterico's Pontifications

1/12/2021

Trump Assumes No Responsibility For Insurrection, Says Impeachment Is A Danger To Country

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:24 am



[guest post by Dana]

No surprises here:

Given Trump’s four-year reign, it was easy to see fairly early on that he was never going to change or “grow into the presidency,” no matter how much his defenders tried to convince us that he would. His lack of character and bad behavior has been on full display for all to see. So how did so many not​ know that something awful was going to happen if he lost the election? When a man on the edge of grasping the ultimate ring of power says that he can stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue, shoot somebody, and not lose any voters and then, incredulously, revels in this belief, Americans should immediately understand that this is a man not to be admired and embraced, but rather to carefully guard against. Always.

–Dana

UPDATE BY PATTERICO: This is as good a place as any to lay down a marker: Democrats are screwing up this impeachment (like they screwed up the last one, by failing to include an article charging obstruction of justice). There should absolutely be an article of abuse of power in service of an attempt to reverse the results of a free and fair election.

GOP senators will, ludicrously, stick to the legal definition of “incitement” (which is likely not met by Trump’s behavior) as their excuse to vote against the article that has been unveiled. They are entitled to vote on the facts and are not bound by the way the Democrats have charged it, but if they want an excuse (and many do) that one comes ready-made.

Meanwhile they had to shoehorn the Raffensperger call into this, and did so awkwardly, when it would have neatly fit an article of abuse of power to reverse an election result.

Ultimately, it will not work, and the fault will still lie with the Senate Republicans who vote to acquit — but the Democrats are making the bad result easier.

Is there nothing Nancy Pelosi can’t screw up?

187 Responses to “Trump Assumes No Responsibility For Insurrection, Says Impeachment Is A Danger To Country”

  1. There was no other possible election-loss outcome for Trump. This is what he wanted, fostered, and hoped for: an angry mob willing to use whatever means possible, risking life and limb for his sake. He has certainly been a problem. But the bigger problem has been the angry mob that even now, still buys into his delusions.

    Dana (cc9481)

  2. I don’t think he’s fully internalized the impact this will have to the Trump brand and assume he can just tell different lies tomorrow and fix the problem.

    Time123 (306531)

  3. — What Would Roy Cohn Do?
    — Lie and keep on lying until you wear down the people fending off all your lies, then reach a settlement and claim you won.

    nk (1d9030)

  4. I remain surprised that the actions of elected representatives who decided to follow Trump’s lead in continuing to contest an election that he clearly lost seems to be considered of minor importance when compared to the action of the rioters. The threat to the orderly transfer of power by a significant portion of the legislature is a far more significant constitutional crisis than the criminal acts of an unruly mob.

    John B Boddie (d795fd)

  5. Time123,

    I don’t think it even crosses his mind or conscience that there is responsibility for him to assume. Thus, there is no intentional thinking about what lies to tell the next day. His reality is not our reality. Any damage to the Trump Brand will be someone else’s fault. At one time, I would’ve just thought I was being cynical for believing that, but now I think it’s being willfully ignorant to not understand that this is who he is and who he has always been.

    Dana (cc9481)

  6. I don’t think he’s fully internalized the impact this will have to the Trump brand and assume he can just tell different lies tomorrow and fix the problem.

    To be fair, the Trump brand largely IS the view that you can tell all sorts of different lies so long as it gets you what you want, so I’m not sure this is all that damaging to his brand.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  7. So, Deutsche Bank, which had no problem working with Hitler, helped liquidate Jewish property and loaded the money to build Auschwitz, has cut ties with the Trump Organization.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  8. *loaned

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. Dear President Trump:

    Impeachment works in your favor.

    In Convention, July 20, 1787:

    Docr. Franklin was for retaining the clause as favorable to the executive. History furnishes one example only of a first Magistrate being formally brought to public Justice. Every body cried out agst this as unconstitutional. What was the practice before this in cases where the chief Magistrate rendered himself obnoxious? Why recourse was had to assassination in wch. he was not only deprived of his life but of the opportunity of vindicating his character. It wd. be the best way therefore to provide in the Constitution for the regular punishment of the Executive when his misconduct should deserve it, and for his honorable acquittal when he should be unjustly accused.


    The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Vol 2

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. So, Deutsche Bank, which had no problem working with Hitler, helped liquidate Jewish property and loaded the money to build Auschwitz, has cut ties with the Trump Organization.

    Do you think the current managers/leaders of Deutsche Bank would loan money to Hitler?

    If we’re going to hold organizational units to the worst sins they’ve committed in the past, I’m afraid I have some really bad news about what the United States did up until 1865. And that’s just one example!

    (That all said, the more relevant examples for me are someone like Steve Kerr going on and on about how bad America is but won’t say a blessed thing about China. I think it’s totally fair game to point out current hypocrisy.)

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  11. @6, Trump has only ever been about making the Presidency into reality TV…..and he’s succeeded in that no one can stop talking about him…love him or hate him. I am not sure whether he wanted anyone hurt on Jan 6th…or was indifferent to it. I think he wanted it maximally gripping while having minimal fingerprints on the actual confrontations. I think it spun away from them. I don’t think he and his team are dim enough to think that a confrontation at the Capitol would have actually secured a second term for him…I think they just wanted theater. Now I think that still makes Trump and his team morally responsible for the mayhem, wounded, or killed. He could have cooled things off but lit the match with his Pence comments and did nothing while great uncertainty ruled the moment. Morally it’s inexcusable….and should be sufficient for impeachment and conviction. He needs to be banned from future office…and his kids by proxy.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  12. GOP lawmakers told Trump takes some responsibility for Capitol riot

    https://thehill.com/homenews/house/533754-gop-lawmakers-told-trump-takes-some-responsibility-for-capitol-riot

    “What a revoltin’ development this is!” – Chester A. Riley [William Bendix] ‘The Life of Riley’ ABC/NBC, 1940s

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  13. Do you think the current managers/leaders of Deutsche Bank would loan money to Hitler?

    No, but they might have loaned money to Saddam or Botha.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  14. So how did so many not​ know that something awful was going to happen if he lost the election?

    It hadn’t happened before with any losing candidate.

    Once he started, it was folly to predict it would end once the states finally certified their votes or, like Mitch McConnell did, once the Electors voted.

    Nothing was the end of the road. He had people telling him new ways he could still win.

    It has finally stopped. He has conceded Biden will be inaugurated president on January 20.

    Now he’s fighting only impeachment.

    t

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  15. Where’s our Konrad Adenauer?

    nk (1d9030)

  16. Kevin M:

    Dear President Trump:

    Impeachment works in your favor.

    a successful impeachment works in favor of the Republican Party.

    The best way to handle this, if you want to unify the country, is to come to an agreement with Mitch McConnell on grounds for impeachment (don;t use the idea his speech “incited” the mob) and also for President Biden to agree to pardon Donald Trump for the things that are in the articles of impeachment, and maybe some other charges, and for the pardon to be issued just before the Senate votes.

    It is not necessary for Donald Trump to agree with this – just Mitch McConnell.

    And he can make the vote to disqualify him for he presidency about 90-10.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  17. AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:13 am

    I am not sure whether he wanted anyone hurt on Jan 6th…or was indifferent to it. I think he wanted it maximally gripping while having minimal fingerprints on the actual confrontations.

    His speech, in any case was not the cause of the disturbance. It was pretty innocuous aside from the thing he wanted Mike Pence to do. If he knew something of what going to happen, if he even just wanted the session of Cogress interrupted, that was not done through his speech.

    I think it spun away from them. I don’t think he and his team are dim enough to think that a confrontation at the Capitol would have actually secured a second term for him…I think they just wanted theater.

    I think they were dim enough to believe that a massive crowd could cause something to happen that would postpone the end of the counting of the Electoral votes till at least Thursday night. His biggest hope was persuading Mike Pence.

    And before the count was done, they’d get state legislatures to send a different batch of electoral votes. Don’t ask – I can’t figure it out myself.

    And whoever was selling Trump on this plan had other ideas in mind.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  18. The writers of Arrested Development couldn’t have written anything crazier than this.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  19. @16:

    The point was a bit of snark, where I quote Franklin as saying it’s better than getting assassinated.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  20. Remember when I said that Trump wasn’t worse than James Buchanan, since he hadn’t left us with a civil war? That statement is no longer operative. Trump is trying to start one over HIMSELF.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  21. The writers of Arrested Development couldn’t have written anything crazier than this.

    Keifer Sutherland is kicking himself for missing this plot.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  22. He has nearly all of the vices and none of the virtues of the Bible. Yet today, he is the rock that so many are standing on and defending. I know they say it’s for God and Country, but it’s for a man. A very flawed man.

    noel (9fead1)

  23. One, it’s ironic that Trump warns/threatens “tremendous danger” when he’s endangered our democracy for the last two months with his Big Lie, and it’s a lie with a death toll.

    Two, I accept your apology, Mr. Dreher.
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-capitol-insurrection-road-out-of-nowhere/

    Three, I’m glad hurricane season is over as there are none for Trump to nuke on his way out.

    Paul Montagu (40272b)

  24. Hoi Polloi @ 19. Crazier than what?

    Something specific mentioned on this page, or the general situation?

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  25. Lonnie Coffman is one of the adoring fans whom Trump invited to the January 6th Insurrection. No responsibility there either.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  26. @ 14 Sammy —

    It hadn’t happened before with any losing candidate.

    I don’t remember another candidate who, before the election, repeatedly said that the only way he could lose was by fraud, and refused to commit to accepting the results, instead saying things like this:

    “Well, we’re going to have to see what happens,” Trump said. “You know that I’ve been complaining very strongly about the ballots, and the ballots are a disaster.”
    Pressed further, Trump said: “We’ll want to have — get rid of the ballots and you’ll have a very — we’ll have a very peaceful — there won’t be a transfer, frankly. There’ll be a continuation.”

    Trump gave indications beforehand that he would not be like other losing candidates, but his defenders told us, once again, that it was ridiculous and hateful to attach meaning to his words.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  27. President Biden to agree to pardon Donald Trump

    Comedy gold!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  28. @4, John B. Boddie —

    The threat to the orderly transfer of power by a significant portion of the legislature is a far more significant constitutional crisis than the criminal acts of an unruly mob.

    Agree, though I’ll note that elements of the unruly mob actually did some preparation, and most worryingly there’s apparently some LE and military training among them.

    I decided long ago that seeing some policies I dislike (for a time) is preferable to having a sociopath in the presidency, surrounded by sycophantic yes-men. Now it appears that the party I’ve long opposed might, as of now, be more reliable defenders of the constitutional order than the people who posed as constitutionalists.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  29. Paul, Dreher complains that he doesn’t want the GOP to return to the party that was before Trump….but I kind of wonder what that means exactly. He certainly seems angry about the prosecution of the Iraq War…and I assume was mad about two losses to Obama…..and I can appreciate that other than being against Obamacare and against Islamists, the recent (last 18yrs) GOP has not exactly torn it up with ideas or leadership….but has he ever articulated an actual vision…because he seems caught in the spin cycle of handing it to the libs. It’s clear to me that Step 1 is that the GOP must distance itself from conspiracies and cults of personality. Step 2 is that it gets back to ideas not simply rooted in populist rhetoric…that really don’t accomplish much. But it is nice to see some waking from their 4-year naps….

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  30. Everyone has been focused on Trump’s speech at his rally on the 6th–both his critics and his slavering admirers–to try to argue either that he was or was not guilty of inciting mob violence by that speech. But that speech was only the last episode of a long line of actions and statements that contributed to this outcome. Most of all, his delusional refusal, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, to admit that he lost and concede the election was what contributed to it. Even if he had not delivered his speech at the rally, his minions would have been in enough of a lather to do what they did. And surely he must have known that his dogged refusal to acknowledge the obvious would have that effect. If he had only conceded in a timely manner, none of this would have happened.

    Roger (782680)

  31. This is good, but we need McCarthy and other leaders to push this message publicly; Trump lost fairly, it wasn’t a false flag attack. When that starts happening, and there are clear consequences for the people pushing the lie it’ll be be time to talk about moving on and unity.

    Behind the scenes: In a tense, 30-minute-plus phone call this morning with House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, Trump trotted out the Antifa line.

    McCarthy would have none of it, telling the president: “It’s not Antifa, it’s MAGA. I know. I was there,” according to a White House official and another source familiar with the call.
    The White House official said the call was tense and aggressive at times, with Trump ranting about election fraud and an exasperated McCarthy cutting in to say, “Stop it. It’s over. The election is over.”

    Time123 (306531)

  32. …..an exasperated McCarthy cutting in to say, “Stop it. It’s over. The election is over.”

    He finally acknowledge it?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  33. Exclusive: Luxembourg, EU snub Pompeo in final Europe trip, diplomats say
    ……
    The Europeans snubbed Washington’s top envoy days after the storming of the U.S. Capitol by thousands of supporters of President Donald Trump, an unprecedented attack on American democracy that stunned many world leaders and U.S. allies.

    Pompeo, a close ally of Trump, had sought to meet Jean Asselborn in Luxembourg, a small but wealthy NATO ally, before meeting EU leaders and the bloc’s top diplomat in Brussels, three people close to the planning told Reuters.

    Pompeo had originally planned to go to Luxembourg, but that leg of the trip was scrapped, one diplomatic source said, after officials there showed reluctance to grant him appointments. The Brussels leg was still on until the last minute.

    But Pompeo’s final visit schedule in Brussels was not going to involve any meetings with the EU or any public events at NATO. A third diplomatic source said allies were “embarrassed” by Pompeo after the violence in Washington last Wednesday.
    ……
    Not Luxembourg!!!! Pompeo’s final vacation at the taxpayers expense is ruined.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  34. UPDATE BY PATTERICO: This is as good a place as any to lay down a marker: Democrats are screwing up this impeachment (like they screwed up the last one, by failing to include an article charging obstruction of justice). There should absolutely be an article of abuse of power in service of an attempt to reverse the results of a free and fair election.

    GOP senators will, ludicrously, stick to the legal definition of “incitement” (which is likely not met by Trump’s behavior) as their excuse to vote against the article that has been unveiled. They are entitled to vote on the facts and are not bound by the way the Democrats have charged it, but if they want an excuse (and many do) that one comes ready-made.

    Meanwhile they had to shoehorn the Raffensperger call into this, and did so awkwardly, when it would have neatly fit an article of abuse of power to reverse an election result.

    Ultimately, it will not work, and the fault will still lie with the Senate Republicans who vote to acquit — but the Democrats are making the bad result easier.

    Is there nothing Nancy Pelosi can’t screw up?

    Patterico (a42186)

  35. Priorities, priorities. It remains about THEM. Not US. And the clucking hens that pass for Jake-The-Tapper-journalists keep egging them on… for drama TeeVee. Where is the Covid vaccine and American’s emergency $2,000 to get desperate Americans through the pandemic times?

    More time lost. What a totally useless steaming pile of flesh these Congrsscritters and their TeeVee peanut gallery cheerleaders are.

    And in other news, when America truly was great–

    “Everything is going well on the Moon today…” – Walter Cronkite, CBS News, July 30, 1971.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  36. CNN reports Turtle tell aides/associates Trump has committed ‘impeachable offenses.’ =yawn=

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  37. UPDATE BY PATTERICO: This is as good a place as any to lay down a marker: Democrats are screwing up this impeachment (like they screwed up the last one, by failing to include an article charging obstruction of justice). There should absolutely be an article of abuse of power in service of an attempt to reverse the results of a free and fair election.

    GOP senators will, ludicrously, stick to the legal definition of “incitement” (which is likely not met by Trump’s behavior) as their excuse to vote against the article that has been unveiled. They are entitled to vote on the facts and are not bound by the way the Democrats have charged it, but if they want an excuse (and many do) that one comes ready-made.

    Meanwhile they had to shoehorn the Raffensperger call into this, and did so awkwardly, when it would have neatly fit an article of abuse of power to reverse an election result.

    Ultimately, it will not work, and the fault will still lie with the Senate Republicans who vote to acquit — but the Democrats are making the bad result easier.

    Is there nothing Nancy Pelosi can’t screw up?

    Patterico (a42186) — 1/12/2021 @ 1:49 pm

    If i assume that Nancy Pelosi is smart, knows more about government then i do, paid attention to the last one has access to subject matter experts it becomes likely that this is what she wants.

    I think she wants articles that the Senate can vote for (no poison pills) but that do not create a precedent for abuse of power. She’s twice had the chance to include that and has chosen not to. I don’t think it’s a oversight.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  38. Something specific mentioned on this page, or the general situation?

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca) — 1/12/2021 @ 12:49 pm

    The general situation.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  39. Is there nothing Nancy Pelosi can’t screw up?

    Patterico (a42186) — 1/12/2021 @ 1:49 pm

    Her hair appointments.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  40. God himself could’ve written the articles of impeachment and passed them on to the Senate from a burning senatorial desk and the Rs who don’t want to vote for them would’ve found some cover in not voting for them and Nancy Pelosi certainly isn’t God. Probably they would’ve said that fire is a symbol of the Devil and they can’t vote for the Devil like the Dems do.

    Nic (896fdf)

  41. Liz Chaney announces she will vote to impeach; says no president has ever shown a greater betrayal of their oath of office.

    Pfft. Such a drama queen.

    Lizzy outta check in with Darth Daddy about his time and work for The Big Dick.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  42. I think the reluctant Trumpers pretty much jumped ship after the insurrection at the Capitol. From the most recent Quinnipiac poll, it had Trump’s approval rating at 33 percent. Before that, Trump’s numbers seemed to have a floor in the low 40s, very rarely getting into the 30s. I think the reluctant Trump voters pretty much jumped ship. Him getting a third of the public and 71 percent of Republicans to view him favorable, numerically shows the staying power of his cult. Especially when presidents like Bush 43, Carter, and Nixon dropped to the 20s, and didn’t do anywhere near close to what Trump did throughout his presidency.
    I’m wondering if it is possible(given that the Dems are screwing up impeachment again) if Trump could be disqualified from seeking office again after he leaves office on January 20. I’m also wondering if it is possible to disqualify him through a simple majority even if the Senate doesn’t reach the 2/3rds necessary to convict him. From reading Article 1, Sec. 3, Clauses 6-7, it doesn’t really say anything when it comes to an impeaching and disqualifying a President without a conviction.

    https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trumps-approval-rating-following-capitol-riot-ties-his-all-time-low-poll-1560597

    HCI (92ea66)

  43. . I’m also wondering if it is possible to disqualify him through a simple majority even if the Senate doesn’t reach the 2/3rds necessary to convict him.

    They have to convict by 2/3rds first, then simple majority can ‘sentence.’

    Dustin (4237e0)

  44. UPDATE BY PATTERICO: This is as good a place as any to lay down a marker: Democrats are screwing up this impeachment (like they screwed up the last one, by failing to include an article charging obstruction of justice). There should absolutely be an article of abuse of power in service of an attempt to reverse the results of a free and fair election.

    GOP senators will, ludicrously, stick to the legal definition of “incitement” (which is likely not met by Trump’s behavior) as their excuse to vote against the article that has been unveiled. They are entitled to vote on the facts and are not bound by the way the Democrats have charged it, but if they want an excuse (and many do) that one comes ready-made.

    Meanwhile they had to shoehorn the Raffensperger call into this, and did so awkwardly, when it would have neatly fit an article of abuse of power to reverse an election result.

    Ultimately, it will not work, and the fault will still lie with the Senate Republicans who vote to acquit — but the Democrats are making the bad result easier.

    Is there nothing Nancy Pelosi can’t screw up?
    Patterico (a42186) — 1/12/2021 @ 1:49 pm

    +1

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  45. Nancy screwed up the last impeachment with only two articles when she should’ve passed over a dozen. The same this time around by not including his soliciting fraud in that call with the GA SecState, obstruction per the Mueller report, etc.

    Paul Montagu (9cfc37)

  46. President Biden to agree to pardon Donald Trump

    Sorry. You cannot uncross the Rubicon. Trump played the Game of Thrones, and he played it poorly. Like everything else he did.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  47. Especially when presidents like Bush 43, Carter, and Nixon dropped to the 20s, and didn’t do anywhere near close to what Trump did throughout his presidency.

    The intensity of the personal allegiance to Trump is weird. The cultists don’t care what he does in policy terms. They love him because he’s a sociopath who has power over people they resent.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  48. Kevin M. at roughly #22:

    ….the Jack Bauer or the Tom Kirkman version?

    urbanleftbehind (07bdfc)

  49. Is there nothing Nancy Pelosi can’t screw up?

    Patterico (a42186) — 1/12/2021 @ 1:49 pm

    I don’t think it’s a oversight.

    Time123 (b87ded) — 1/12/2021 @ 2:03 pm

    It’s not like Nancy went up the mountain all alone to draft these articles. You’d think impeaching POTUS would be something that you’d want to get right, get the best legal minds to consult, etc.

    Like so many things these days, if you step back and ponder it, both versions of this are very bad. If the articles are intentionally written to accomplish something different than the stated goal what does that say about all of the people involved in drafting them. If this is unintentional same question. Either way, what does it say about us? I guess we’ve got our top people on it. Top people.

    frosty (f27e97)

  50. Pelosi is shrewd. I doubt she really wants Trump barred from running in 2024. The Republicans had the presidency and both chambers in 2017. Why disqualify the man who helped Democrats regain the House, Senate, and Presidency, all within his first term?

    No, she just wants to give the appearance of doing something about Trump. I suspect she crafted the articles of impeachment in a way that would make it hard for any persuadable Republicans to vote to convict. That way, Trump hangs around like a bad case of Covid, and the senators’ “no” votes could be used against them in the future.

    The last thing she wants to do is modify the articles of impeachment to make them more palatable to Republicans. Trump is much too valuable as a poster boy for the evils of Republicanism.

    Tell me I’m wrong.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  51. Nk at ~#15, probably one of the young schnitzels i.e. Gaetz, Cawthorn*, Nunes

    *he must have seen the baby carriage scene from Battleship Potempkin recently

    urbanleftbehind (07bdfc)

  52. Ultimately, it will not work, and the fault will still lie with the Senate Republicans who vote to acquit — but the Democrats are making the bad result easier.

    I disagree, for reasons I’ve stated before. Impeachment is not about crimes so much as about behavior. If the behavior is such that the pubic is enraged (and his supporters among them) he will be convicted.

    It really doesn’t matter what the lawyers think. Twice we’ve had purely legal infractions that the public didn’t give a whit about and twice we’ve had votes on party lines. Both times the legal folks have been up in arms about HOW COULD THEY!?!? They could because there were not political consequences to voting to acquit.

    HERE, however, the public is enraged and his supporters are under the gun. LIZ CHENEY just said she’d vote to impeach. That’s pretty far over on the right. Kevin McCarthy has released Congressmen from party discipline. McConnell, by all indications, will vote to convict.

    Why? Not because of some legal charge, which would have to be proven, but because the charges are political and the are telling. When it comes time to vote, the question will not be “will the GOP convict?” but “Which way will Cruz vote?”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  53. Tell me I’m wrong.

    You’re wrong. The Senators will not look to anything other than “Which vote do the people in my state demand?” If the people are silent (or at least those that would ever vote for you), then you vote to acquit. If your supporters are pissed off and cutting of your donations and looking to primary you like they are doing Hawley and Cruz, then you better get on the right side of history, eh?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  54. “Which way will Cruz vote?”

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/12/2021 @ 3:40 pm

    There are three factors in play: saliva, finger, and wind.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  55. I expect more Republican senators to vote to convict than acquit. The only thing that could change that would be to drag this out to summer and everyone is following a different squirrel.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  56. There are three factors in play: saliva, finger, and wind.

    Hint: It is no longer blowing from Vichy.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  57. Also, w.r.t. the Senate, “how many years until my next primary”

    urbanleftbehind (07bdfc)

  58. Hint: It is no longer blowing from Vichy.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/12/2021 @ 3:48 pm

    :)

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  59. This definitely wont help change any R minds on impeachment, considering his Biden endorsement last fall:

    https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2021/01/former-gov-rick-snyder-to-be-charged-with-crime-in-flint-water-crisis-ap-reports.html

    urbanleftbehind (07bdfc)

  60. “Which way will Cruz vote?”

    Present.

    Canadians are notoriously polite.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  61. 51.Pelosi is shrewd

    Pelosi is shrew.

    FIFY.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  62. Nancy will not send the impeachment to the Senate. Not any time soon. Just like last time, she’s only putting on a show. “I’m ready for my close up now, Mr. DeMille.” (Yeah, whatever.)

    Anyway, wasn’t Trump already im”peached” in Georgia?

    nk (1d9030)

  63. @63. Depends on which set of peaches from Georgia you wish to be bruised by; the Georgia Peach is ‘marla-vous.’

    What a way to go. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  64. Not only that, but he was braid-pulling with the best of any would-be playground lothario in regards to Kelly Loeffler.

    urbanleftbehind (07bdfc)

  65. Ask your kids what a peach emoji represents in social media parlance.

    urbanleftbehind (07bdfc)

  66. @66.First, have to ask what be an emoji. 😉 :-)

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  67. 3.— What Would Roy Cohn Do?

    Hit on Lindsey Graham.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  68. Kevin Williamson agrees with me!

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/01/impeach-convict-remove/

    There are criticisms to be made of the impeachment effort. Of course Nancy Pelosi is acting in bad faith — it is the only faith she has, and I expect she manages to act in it even when picking out Christmas presents for her grandkids.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  69. Congressional Republicans move to piss off 74-plus million GOP voters.

    Well played, Custer.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  70. Poor kids probably get the ol’ Aldi brand ice cream at the parties.

    urbanleftbehind (07bdfc)

  71. Is there nothing Nancy Pelosi can’t screw up?

    Patterico (a42186) — 1/12/2021 @ 1:49 pm

    I don’t think it’s a oversight.

    Time123 (b87ded) — 1/12/2021 @ 2:03 pm

    The truth is likely somewhere in the middle because both ideas have merit. Who believes that Congress is actually capable of writing in the relevant time-frame, themselves, the huge bills of late? What we are seeing is the actual quality of our elected elite, and the true enthusiasm they have, as a whole, to see a task done.

    felipe (630e0b)

  72. “If the Democrats didn’t suck,
    We wouldn’t have gotten Trump.”

    True in 2016, true in 2019, and true now.

    nk (1d9030)

  73. There should absolutely be an article of abuse of power in service of an attempt to reverse the results of a free and fair election.

    It doesn’t even have to state abuse of power because mostly it wasn’t anything that involved the executive power of the United States government. It was abuse of political power.

    I came up with an article. (I’ll borrow a little from the House Resolution)

    Article I

    He has repeatedly, and unjustifiably, claimed he was deprived of an election victory in the Presidential election of 2020 because of widespread fraud, and that his political opposition agreed with him on this point; and has repeatedly urged different people, involved in different stages of the counting and the certification of the votes, to depart from the normal and usual processes of government in order to help him continue in the office of president for another term, culminating in an effort to have Congress refuse to count and accept a certain number of Electoral votes, which Congress had no right to do, or that the Vice President of the United States should refuse to accept certain Electoral votes, for which there was no procedural basis in law or in the constitution at all.

    The actual resolution says ‘repeatedly issued false statements asserting’

    I don’t like that. Trump could claim he believed them. And this is too much acting like the truth police.

    I prefer: ‘repeatedly, and unjustifiably, claimed’

    It’s not that they were false. It is that they were unjustifiable. That is, he had no reasonable basis for asserting that.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  74. (i am hearing tiny, hopeful things about a couple more Republican congress members and senators, that they might recognize that Trump stepped over the line and be willing to visit consequences on him for that. i am speaking v. v. quietly, because I don’t want to scare them. but it is. a tiny bit. hopeful.)

    Nic (896fdf)

  75. “Remember, democracy never lasts long; it soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” -John Adams

    It’s in the GOP’s interest to keep this republic going. It’s in some particular grifter’s interest to do the wrong thing and rely on others to do the right thing. We’ll see who is who, but frankly I think everyone has already revealed who they are. Who is a Cheney and who is a Cruz isn’t really a question now.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  76. @76. John Adams: The two party system is “the greatest political evil under our Constitution”. ” There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  77. Earlier today, Trump made this threat:

    “The 25th amendment is of zero risk to me. But we’ll come back to haunt Joe Biden and the Biden administration. As the expression goes Be careful what you wish for, the impeachment hoax is a continuation of the greatest and most vicious witch hunt in the history of our country, and is causing tremendous anger and division and pain, far greater than most people will ever understand.”

    Trump won’t change. There will be no contrition or apology or retraction from him.
    Trump must be defeated. Completely. Ground into dust. Humiliated.
    More French:

    With the benefit of hindsight, we can now see two converging movements that culminated in Wednesday’s assault on the Capitol. The first was an ongoing propaganda effort, engineered in the White House, aided and abetted by members of Congress, and empowered by conservative media. It was a propaganda effort centered around a plain and provable lie: that the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump.

    The second effort was a paramilitary/terror effort that first indulged in acts of intimidation—including by threatening politicians who enforced election law—then plotted a violent attack, and then executed that attack in vicious, spectacular fashion on January 6. The more we learn about the attack itself, the worse it appears. There is now real cause for concern that attackers intended to seize and publicly execute members of Congress and perhaps Vice President Mike Pence.

    Moreover, there’s no indication that the paramilitary/terror effort is over. Even now, the internet is teeming with exhortations for “patriots” to murder politicians and journalists. There are open calls for armed protests at all 50 state capitals.
    […]
    Even now, as I type these words, something in my spirit rebels against this comparison. This is the United States of America. Aren’t we immune to the forces that have ripped other societies to shreds?

    No, we are not. And our naiveté may well be our vulnerability. It’s time to be bleakly realistic about the threat we face. In the words of my former law school classmate and CNN national security analyst Juliette Kayyem, Donald Trump is the spiritual and operational leader of this insurgency. We are in “the tactical phase of a counterterrorism effort,” and in that tactical phase Donald Trump has to lose.

    Looking at the Twitter and Facebook feeds of our friends, this isn’t just a political battle, it’s a spiritual battle. French’s prescription, and I agree…

    What do we do? We take a page from the counterinsurgency handbook. We separate the insurgents from the population. Through precise applications of lawful power (including vigorous prosecution of the January 6th murderers and rioters), you defeat the leader, you punish his closest confederates, and you give the rest of the population a chance to come to its senses, to see the con man for what he is.

    That’s why it’s imperative that Trump not just be deplatformed and ushered out of the Oval Office through the conventional peaceful transition, he should be impeached, convicted, and barred from holding office.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  78. GOP senators will, ludicrously, stick to the legal definition of “incitement” (which is likely not met by Trump’s behavior) as their excuse to vote against the article that has been unveiled.

    It claims that some statements in his speech, which it specifies, foreseeably incited members of the crowd he had addressed, to take lawless action to interfere with the Joint Session’s “solemn constitutional duty to certify the results of the 2020 Presidential election,” and unlawfully breach and vandalize the Capitol, injure and kill law enforcement personnel, menace Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel, and engage in other violent, deadly, destructive and seditious acts.

    This is not true. This is not true.

    It was not foreseeable – and how do we know it? Because it was not foreseen.

    Where are the alarming text messages alerting people (in the Capitol police and others) that an unruly crowd, fired up by President Trump was coming to the Capitol?

    Where are they?

    News outlets are full of stories of how some violence was foreseen – but not because of the speech, but rather, the day before. Like an FBI message that came from Virginia:

    https://www.pilotonline.com/government/nation/vp-nw-fbi-norfolk-warning-20210112-or2kkxpnxbeoln7ysza4z3ac6a-story.html

    The day before pro-Trump rioters led an insurrection at the U.S. Capitol last week, the FBI’s Norfolk office warned others in the bureau of concerning online chatter threatening violence, according to a new report from The Washington Post.
    The newspaper obtained an internal document, called a situational information report, that had been sent Jan. 5 by the Norfolk-based officials. The Post said it painted a “a dire portrait of dangerous plans.”

    We’re supposed to believe it was OK to ignore it – only when you had the new factor of the Trump made his speech.

    Notice of possible attacks (which authorities didn’t believe) was posted online.

    Last Thursday, the Wal Street Journal wrote:

    On Monday, several posters in the chat room boards.4chan.org/pol/ said Trump supporters planned to force an evacuation of the Capitol on Wednesday as lawmakers voted to affirm electoral ballots for President-elect Joe Biden.

    “The storm is coming,” anonymous poster “txMkt1BK” said on the nearly 10,000-word thread. Another person, “ptwPefMr,” wrote that after Trump supporters “storm the Capitol” the “Vote doesnt (sic) finish, Ensuing chaos.”

    Multiple posters on a site created last year—TheDonald.win—also discussed storming the Capitol in the days leading up to Wednesday’s riot. One person under the moniker “EvilGuy” said Monday he was “scouting” Washington as part of an effort to “end this sh#t this week.”

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  79. Trump must be defeated. Completely. Ground into dust. Humiliated.

    Well, we’ve already heard the lamentations of his women.

    nk (1d9030)

  80. Bikers For Trump can be forgiven. Elected Schnitzel-Slurpers For Trump cannot. From Ronna McDaniel to both chambers of Congress, to state governors and legislators, they must be purged. But who will be our Moses and Aaron?

    26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord’s side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

    27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

    28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
    Exodus 32 (KJV)

    nk (1d9030)

  81. And another thing: All the main people who breached and vandalized the Capitol probably weren’t there listening to Trump’s speech.

    They were in hiding, or went only to the rally at the northwest side of the Capitol grounds. They went directly to the Capitol area. They didn’t stop off to see the president and walk to the Capitol

    Where are the pictures of the people in the colorful costumes carrying assault equipment or a Confederate flag at the rally a the ellipse? It’s been many days. Had a picture or two (or more!) existed of any of these people at the Save America rally that Trump addressed or walking to the mall, they would have surfaced by now. This is the dog that didn’t bark.

    That doesn’t mean that Trump giving a speech and telling the crowd to walk to the Capitol was not part of a clever attack plan, but even if that was so, you need something more to show that Trump knew what would happen.

    Here from the Internet archive, is what was supposedly going to take place:

    Three different rallies:

    1. Tuesday January 5, 2021 at 1 PM at Freedom Plaza

    2. Wednesday January 6 2021 at 9 AM at The ellipse – President’s Park

    2. Wednesday January 6 2021 at 1 PM -at the Capitol Building – Northeast Drive

    It was at about 12:53 pm that the first breach of a barrier took place. I don’t know if that 1 pm rally ever even got started.

    This was something for which there was a permit, no doubt.

    Here is the promo:

    Event goes from 1 PM – 5 PM

    We the People must take to the US Capitol lawn and steps and tell Congress #DoNotCertify on #JAN6! Congress cannot certify this fraudulent Electoral College. Our presence in Washington D.C. will let Members of Congress know that we stand with Rep. Mo Brooks and his colleagues in the House of Representatives who will bravely object to the certification of the Electoral College. We’re in need of at least one Senator. We’ve identified six (seven including Senator-elect Tommy Tuberville) that could join our cause.

    StopTheSteal.us is working closely, whipping the vote up, with patriots in the Congress.

    And they list a whole slew of invited speakers. (I guess for all 3 events combined)

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  82. @Sammy@80

    Sammy, it is true. The premise of your posts over the last while is that Trump is a naive and stupid dupe who is generally well intentioned but listens to the wrong people. One or two of those things might be true, but all 4 of them are definitely not and you need all 4 for your premise that Trump didn’t really understand what he was doing to be true. You have given him so far beyond reasonable doubt that it is no long at all reasonable.

    Nic (896fdf)

  83. I appreciate Sammy putting it to the test in good faith (rather than the pretzel twisting and obnoxious ‘I don’t understand 2+2′ debate theater way). I agree with Nic, but I also think this misses the point of the impeachment.

    Trump has to lose, not for justice purposes, but for the sake of our future. If storming the capitol and trying to steal the election doesn’t continue to be an insane and obviously counter-productive strategy, then we’re pretty much screwed as a nation and a society. It’s already going to be a generation of ‘whatabout when Trump…’ any time a democrat is caught doing something wrong.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  84. Originally the event at the Capitol was ti run from 10 AM – 5 PM. The rally at the Ellipse (and the Jan 5 event) was added sometimes between 2:15 pm January 4 and 22 minutes past midnight January 5.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  85. Nic (896fdf) — 1/12/2021 @ 7:21 pm

    Sammy, it is true. The premise of your posts over the last while is that Trump is a naive and stupid dupe who is generally well intentioned

    No, he’s not generally well intentioned.

    but listens to the wrong people.

    That I think he did here.

    Above all, I don’t his speech incited anything. That was not the one new thing that would have alerted the Capitol Police to expect a riot.

    One or two of those things might be true, but all 4 of them are definitely not and you need all 4 for your premise that Trump didn’t really understand what he was doing to be true.

    No, Trump understood he was trying to make the election have an unjustified outcome. And he’s definitely a dope, whatever he thought was the plan.

    You have given him so far beyond reasonable doubt that it is no long at all reasonable.

    There’s a reasonable doubt that he expected windows to be broken and people to be attacked. I don’t know what his plan was. He talked and wrote a little on Twitter about it.

    It seemed to rest on pressuring Mike Pence and/or getting states to change their electoral votes, for which he thouht he maybe only needed another 36 to 72 hours..(no sign of that plan exists)

    I think some people must have been lying to him both as to the facts (what they could succeed in getting states to do) and as to the law.

    I don’t think there is any case to be made that what he thought he was doing was right.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  86. And another thing: All the main people who breached and vandalized the Capitol probably weren’t there listening to Trump’s speech.

    Trump’s speech on Jan. 6 was far from the only time he told people “if you don’t fight like hell you’re not going to have a country anymore,” and the like.

    He spent two months, day after day, claiming that the election had been stolen from him, that it was outrageous and could not be tolerated, that something had to be done about it, that he would never concede. He tried to pressure officials to turn the election for him, and verbally attacked and threatened anyone who would not. He encouraged his cult-like followers to view those people as traitors and Enemies of the People.

    His crackpot lawyers, in his name, spread tales about a giant conspiracy of evil forces including much of the government against their heroic president. One of them openly called for executions of people who didn’t serve Trump above all else. Did Trump tell him to cut it out? Another one called for “trial by combat” — which does not mean “combat by trial.”

    When the attack started, Trump was excited about it. Instead of taking timely measures to stop it, he wanted to watch it unfold. Then he told the rioters, “We love you. You’re very special.”

    Donald Trump spent two months fomenting sedition. And he must have had some idea of what his fanatical supporters were planning, because he cares very much what his devotees say about him.

    I’ll say it again: Donald Trump is not morally worth so much effort to absolve him of guilt. And he certainly wouldn’t make such an effort on anyone else’s behalf.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  87. nk (1d9030) — 1/12/2021 @ 7:05 pm

    From Ronna McDaniel to both chambers of Congress, to state governors and legislators, they must be purged. But who will be our Moses and Aaron?

    Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  88. He also encouraged his supporters to come to D.C. and said it was going to be “wild.”

    Radegunda (20775b)

  89. Trump must be defeated. Completely. Ground into dust. Humiliated.

    And his tribe of 74-plus million, General Custer?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  90. Time123 (b87ded) — 1/12/2021 @ 2:03 pm

    I think she wants articles that the Senate can vote for (no poison pills) but that do not create a precedent for abuse of power. She’s twice had the chance to include that and has chosen not to. I don’t think it’s a oversight.

    She’s creating articles (or an article) that echo talking points, to give people the idea maybe that everything a Democrat says is true.

    She’s not actually trying to get Trump convicted. Why? To make voting for a Republican for president thinkable again? To clean up the Republican Party? Only embarassment will stop her.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  91. @Dustin@85 I agree with that.

    @Sammy@87 For the last 4 years, Trump has walked his true believers right up to and just beyond the level of aggressive violence. He has pointed them at people he doesn’t like and has been pleased with the results. He pointed them at reporters and got assault. He pointed them at BLM and got violent clashes (no I don’t think BLM is innocent in this). He pointed them at gov. Witmer and got a kidnapping plot. He pointed them at Republican state officials in states where he didn’t win and got violent threats and threats of violence. This time he pointed them at the Capitol building. How could he not know he would get aggressive violence?

    Beyond that, had he been horrified by the results of his speech, he would’ve immediately sent more security to the Capitol. But he didn’t. He waited hours while governors, commanders, leaders, congress members, and Senators reached out to everyone they could think of to get help and he refused it and refused it and refused it even when people of his own party were asking. And that, just by itself, is damning.

    Nic (896fdf)

  92. 90. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/12/2021 @ 7:57 pm

    He also encouraged his supporters to come to D.C. and said it was going to be “wild.”

    That was the URL of the website in which the rally was promoted.

    wildprotest.com

    See my link at #83.

    It’s down now, but you can view it in the Wayback machine. The cancelers haven’t come for that. So far.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  93. I think Trump didn’t name it and didn’t understand why the protest was going to be “wild”

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  94. And his tribe of 74-plus million, General Custer?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/12/2021 @ 8:00 pm

    More like General Lee.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  95. 93. Nic (896fdf) — 1/12/2021 @ 8:09 pm

    Beyond that, had he been horrified by the results of his speech,

    They weren’t the result of his speech

    This was planned for a wile down to maybe the name of the website.

    he would’ve immediately sent more security to the Capitol. But he didn’t. He waited hours while governors, commanders, leaders, congress members, and Senators reached out to everyone they could think of to get help and he refused it and refused it and refused it even when people of his own party were asking. And that, just by itself, is damning.

    Now getting straight what he did is important.

    But none of that is in the Article of Impeachment!

    Instead it’s like all this was spontaneous.

    Yes, at times in the ast, Trump has flirted with minor violence. Not with intimidation of people in public life.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  96. Heh!
    — Little Big Horn?
    — No, just a little big horn-dog.
    — Crazy Horse?
    — Let’s leave his women out of it, and that’s not how it’s spelled, anyway.

    nk (1d9030)

  97. 63.nk (1d9030) — 1/12/2021 @ 4:32 pm

    Nancy will not send the impeachment to the Senate. Not any time soon. Just like last time, she’s only putting on a show. “I’m ready for my close up now, Mr. DeMille.” (Yeah, whatever.)

    No, I heard on TV that she is going to send it to the Senate immediately. She can’t not do it. Her caucus won’t stand for it.

    But she can write a bad article that almost all Republicans won’t vote for.

    Somebody should offer up a better article that doesn’t contain any false or problematical statements.

    I think it’s a privileged motion.

    Anyway, wasn’t Trump already im”peached” in Georgia?

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  98. And his tribe of 74-plus million, General Custer?

    I know you didn’t read the link, Kemosave, but you could’ve bothered to read my cut-and-paste, the part where we “separate the insurgents from the population”.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  99. They weren’t the result of his speech

    They were a result of 2-plus months of speech by Trump, starting before the election when he said “”We’ll want to have — get rid of the ballots and you’ll have a very — we’ll have a very peaceful — there won’t be a transfer, frankly. There’ll be a continuation.” He made the “peaceful” part conditional on getting rid of ballots and having a “continuation” not a “transfer” of power.

    Trump spent more than two months conditioning his devotees to believe that the only legitimate outcome was a win for himself; that a loss was necessarily fraudulent and “statistically impossible”; that evil forces were conspiring against patriots and “viciously” taking their vote from them; and that they WON’T HAVE A COUNTRY ANYMORE if they don’t FIGHT LIKE HELL for him against those evil forces.

    It’s ludicrous to suggest that so much rabble-rousing and fearmongering had no effect on people who see Trump as the only honest politician in D.C. and the only thing standing between them and tyranny.

    Donald Trump is indefensible, and not worth your efforts to defend him.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  100. 100. You really don’t get it; Birchers are the purgees, not the purgers.

    Make a martyr.

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  101. You have it backwards, DCSCA. The Trumpists are the Birchers this time around (they both are steeped in conspiracy theories), and the Never Trumpers need to purge them.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  102. The soon to be minority leader- who denies $2000 to hurting Americans in a pandemic and had his own wife nested in Trump’s Cabinet, thinks he will ‘purge the party’- a party of pissed off, pitchforker, 74-plus million voted for– of Trump.

    A more obtuse swamp creature you’ll never see.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  103. @103. Wrong, norcal. The data shows it; the vote tallies grew. But like the Birchers, the establishment ideologues hae to learn the hard way and either leave on their own, get chased out [and through airports 😉 ] or stay and work from the bottom of the deck for the next 30 years.

    Welcome to 1964.

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  104. I’ll take the establishment over the evils of Trump. Anytime. Trump makes Nixon look honorable. If you can’t see that, you are severely misguided.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  105. Trump makes Nixon look honorable.

    Except he doesn’t.

    Especially if you bother to listen The Big Dick’s tapes.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  106. Birchers are the purgees, not the purgers.

    Not anymore.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  107. @108. 74-plus million have told you otherwise.

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  108. @108. 74-plus million have told you otherwise.

    Not anymore.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  109. @110. Keep telling yourself that.

    Make a martyr.

    Ignore what actually matters to the citizenry and piss them pitchforkers off some more; the priorities of vaccine and $2000 Covis relief.

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  110. It’s a problem only for those whose believe that there is a difference between reality and their feeling of what reality ought to be. — cf. Richard Feynman

    nk (1d9030)

  111. Nancy will not send the impeachment to the Senate. Not any time soon.

    You usually want to string up the cattle rustler when you find him with your cattle. You wait 3 months and everyone will forget.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  112. whose

    nk (1d9030)

  113. Congressional Republicans move to piss off 74-plus million GOP voters.

    I’m guessing that 30 million of them regret their vote, and the rest regret their choice.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  114. More like General Lee.

    (instead of Custer)

    General Lee was capable, was defeated mainly by numbers and an opponent willing to spend lives. He also survived his defeat.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  115. Trump makes Nixon look honorable.

    Nixon was honorable. He didn’t dispute elections. He was, however, too loyal to subordinates and tried to hide their fukups.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  116. Ronna McDaniel

    Trump ally Ronna McDaniel reelected to head Republican National Committee

    January 8, 2021

    Ronna McDaniel, an ally of President Trump, was reelected Friday to another term as Republican National Committee chair at a party meeting in Amelia Island, Florida.

    The meeting of GOP leaders came the same week that supporters of President Trump attacked the U.S. Capitol and when Republicans lost two Senate races in Georgia, which gave Democrats control of the chamber.

    Heck of a job, Ronna!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  117. @115. The data from November indicates the numbers grew. A family in Liz’s Wyoming or Mo’s Alabama, desperate for Covid vaccine and Covid $ assistance w/paychecks cut and job lock outs doesn’t care that Nancy had her lectern swiped or Mitch had his door vandalized. As long as they keep thinking it’s about ‘THEM,’ not ‘US,’ the Buchanan pitchforkers will stay on the march–w/Trump, or whoever their next flag carrier will be.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  118. Nixon was honorable.

    No. [Expletive deleted.] He wasn’t =mike drop=.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  119. @97 Trump absolutely has fomented intimidation of people in public life. Whitmer and Georgia election officials are just two examples. And he knows that’s what his rhetoric did, because they arrested those people who planned to kidnap Whitmer (and Trump poopoo’ed it) and because the Georgia election officials have reported it as well.

    Nic (896fdf)

  120. Well, the corrupt, criminal traitor followed in his boyfriend’s footsteps all the way to the end. Roy Cohn was the prime mover for the execution of Ethel Rosenberg, it should be noted over the objection of J. Edgar Hoover. Now this piece of New York sewer flotsam punctuated his four years of evil with the execution of Lisa Montgomery.

    nk (1d9030)

  121. White House insiders say Trump knew what was about to happen at the Capitol — because of his social media guru Dan Scavino

    Andrew Feinberg, The Independent

    Catholic clergy promoted a belief that Biden is a minion of Satan. That helps explain why many of the Trumper seditionists think they’re fighting a holy war.

    One journalist reported the scene: “‘Give it up if you believe in Jesus!’ a man yelled near me. People cheered. ‘Give it up if you believe in Donald Trump!’ Louder cheer.”

    Radegunda (20775b)

  122. @123 Ah, the remnants of the 90s Catholic political extremism continue. Priests are not actually supposed to endorse any candidate from the pulpit, but too many ignore it and too many got the wink and nod from the top in the past that it was OK to do it. Fortunately the USCCB (US Council of Catholic Bishops) has pulled back from that in recent years and remembered that there are other intrinsic evils.

    Nic (896fdf)

  123. Yeah, don’t impeach the guy because he suggested WE drink bleach; nah; rather, do it because THEY had their offices rattled one afternoon. We’re just a distant irritant; it’s always about “THEM”… not “US.” They STILL don’t get that. So Buchanan’s populist pitchforkers finally had enough, have tasted power and spilled blood. Make Trump a martyr; these angry, forgotten people will simply simmer and ferment more– and find another Trump to carry their banner.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  124. It seems to me that Republicans in the House could have crafted their own articles of impeachment if they didn’t like Pelosi’s. Or they could have asked to work with Pelosi on the wording. Or they could simply announce that they are going to vote for impeachment for their own reasons, if they disagree with her wording.

    There’s an internet law, Murc’s Law, popular on left websites. It states that the media will always operate on the principle that only Democrats have agency so only they can be blamed.

    Republicans, at least theoretically, have their own agency. If they actually think Trump should be impeached they should behave that way.

    Victor (4959fb)

  125. DCSCA, I think you miss one cold reality, you underestimate how many members of Congress — Republicans included — are unhappy with lynch mobs being sent their way by Donald Trump, who then repeatedly refused to assist members of Congress and then told the mobs how much he loved them. All in service of fraudulent claims of a stolen election. This is institutional payback. A lot of those 74M voters you keep promoting were utterly disgusted seeing cops getting beaten to death, kicked, and clubbed with a flag pole, all in the service of somehow trying to overturn a democratic fair election….as the President watched and did nothing….something one would expect in Cuba or Venezuela….but not here.

    It was tone deaf lawlessness that only truly appeals to a small insignificant number of Buchanan brigade wannabees who have a truly difficult time processing facts…and grasping reality. It may not have been 9/11 or Tiananmen Square, but it materially changed a lot of minds about the potential danger of Trump or a Trump-like demogogue. Most nose-holding Republicans voted for Trump contingent of him not being an actual threat….that’s changed now in a clear visceral visual that few can mistake.

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  126. This claim is extraordinary.

    Rep. Mikie Sherrill, during a live webcast Tuesday evening, said she witnessed some members of Congress leading people through the Capitol on Jan. 5 in what she termed a “reconnaissance for the next day” when insurrectionists took part in a deadly siege on the legislative branch.

    I don’t know anything about her beyond what’s in here Wiki article. On the surface she seems serious and like the kind of person we’d want in Congress. But her claims will need additional detail.


    Rebecca Michelle Sherrill[1][2] (/ˈmaɪki/; born January 19, 1972)[3] is an American politician, former U.S. Navy helicopter pilot, and former federal prosecutor[4] serving as the U.S. Representative for New Jersey’s 11th congressional district since 2019. The district includes a swath of suburban and exurban areas west of New York City. A member of the Democratic Party, Sherrill was elected on November 6, 2018, defeating Republican Jay Webber.

    Following her election, Sherrill joined the moderate New Democrat Coalition, the largest Democratic caucus in the House, and was named its freshman whip.[39] She also joined the Blue Dog Coalition, a caucus of moderate and conservative House Democrats.[40] She joined two other female veterans in the Democratic freshman class, fellow Naval Academy graduate Elaine Luria and former Air Force officer Chrissy Houlahan.

    Per a promise to her constituents, she did not vote for Nancy Pelosi to retake the Speakership, instead voting for Cheri Bustos of Illinois.[41] She voted “present”, essentially an abstention, in her second Speakership vote.[42]

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  127. So Buchanan’s populist pitchforkers finally had enough, have tasted power and spilled blood. Make Trump a martyr; these angry, forgotten people will simply simmer and ferment more– and find another Trump to carry their banner.

    Trump will be no martyr. Everything that will come to him will be richly deserved. What blowback he faces won’t be enough.
    Trump personified Buchanan’s nationalist-populist-xenophobic schtick, and this was its logical culmination. Because of the travesty of the 1/6 Insurrection, the true-believing loopy loos are going to crawl back to the margins where they belong, taking buses because the TSA won’t have ’em.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  128. these angry, forgotten people will simply simmer and ferment more– and find another Trump to carry their banner

    There’s no scenario where they don’t stay aggrieved.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  129. Time123 (cd2ff4) — 1/13/2021 @ 6:46 am

    We could have had independent investigations into election fraud like we did for the Russia claims. Even if you think it’s a waste of time it might have been worth it to turn down the heat. Instead we got a series of events that couldn’t do anything but escalate the situation.

    I’m not a #stopthesteal person but, in the GA situation, they trotted out the guy who might go to jail if there was fraud and had him say “nope, all good” as the primary evidence. That’s just pissing on people and telling them it’s rain.

    frosty (f27e97)

  130. 127. ROFLMAOPIP. Unhappy- w/a week left. The tail no longer wags the dog. You miss the obvious-they’ve lack the courage of their ‘convictions.’ But they can count: 74 million-plus voted for him. They are “you;” your creation; your GOP ‘Picture of Dorian Gray’– your coalitioned creation necessary to win, then discarded, ignored and shunted aside. And they’re tired being peed on and have it called trickle-down. Those 74-plus million aren’t going to disappear- and given the tallies from the last cycle, Buchanan’s ‘pitchforkers’ likely will continue to grow. Impeach their current champion, you simply create a martyr and they’ll look for another to carry their banner forward. And NONE of this “it’s-about-them-not-us theater” does anything to address the immediate priority of getting Coivd vaccine out and $2000 emergency Covid aid into the pockets of desperate, locked down Americans.

    @129.Trump will be no martyr.

    Except he will. You really don’t get it; or do and remain terrified by the realization that you are now on the bottom of the deck and essentially GOP irrelevant. 74-plus million have told you: the tail no longer wags the dog. You can stay and work from within, be Birchered out, leave and try to start your own party-or be left behind to rant in the wilderness for 35 years. Welcome to 1964.

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  131. Trump supporters in their own words.

    Does anyone believe those people would be talking and acting that way if another Republican had just lost by exactly the same numbers?

    I don’t. For one thing, there wouldn’t be the crazy cult worship, or the idea that this one guy is standing up for you against an evil system in which anyone could soon be exposed as a corrupt traitor while Dear Leader is the North Star of patriotic virtue, fighting with dauntless courage for God and the American People.

    There wouldn’t be the daily allegations from the president that sinister forces had stolen the election from him and that “everybody knows it.” There wouldn’t be dark warnings from the president that patriots “won’t have a country anymore” if they don’t rise up to reinstall him.

    A lot of people would still be mad about the election, and worried about what’s ahead. Many would say there was fraud. But they wouldn’t have formed a seditious mob and wouldn’t still be plotting violence without incitement by a malignant narcissist and by the people who chose to be his propagandists.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  132. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/12/2021 @ 9:58 pm

    I’m guessing that 30 million of them regret their vote, and the rest regret their choice.

    Maybe with regards to Trump. How many of those 30 million have changed their mind on China, the economy, lockdowns, foreign war, 2A, immigration, etc? Or wokeness, critical race theory, marxism, or any of the other culture war issues.

    You’re thinking the capital riot suddenly made people wake up and realize we should go with all sorts of economy destroying plans, say “amen and awomen”, and all of our problems are because of white people?

    frosty (f27e97)

  133. We could have had independent investigations into election fraud like we did for the Russia claims. Even if you think it’s a waste of time it might have been worth it to turn down the heat. Instead we got a series of events that couldn’t do anything but escalate the situation.

    Absolutely right.

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  134. We could have had independent investigations into election fraud like we did for the Russia claims. Even if you think it’s a waste of time it might have been worth it to turn down the heat. Instead we got a series of events that couldn’t do anything but escalate the situation.

    I’m not a #stopthesteal person but, in the GA situation, they trotted out the guy who might go to jail if there was fraud and had him say “nope, all good” as the primary evidence. That’s just pissing on people and telling them it’s rain.

    At this point I don’t believe that the people asking for investigations are acting in good faith.

    Election fraud isn’t nationwide, it’s specific to the municipality where the election happened. The claims that the outcome was determined by fraud or error need to be similarly specific. Once you realize that and start looking you find that many of these claims have been investigated. The results of investigations haven’t resulted in the discovery of outcomes determined by fraud. The failure to find fraud hasn’t resulted in any walk back of the assertions. Can you point to any leader of stop the steal who has looked at the results of an investigation that disproved a claim and dropped that claim? I’m not aware of any. If you can I’ll retract my statement.

    GA is a good example.

    First they asserted that the Dominion voting machines were inflating the vote total for Biden. A hand recount of paper ballots showed that was false. The machine count matched the human count.

    Next they asserted that fraudulent absentee ballots in cooper county were the problem. The GA inspections department checked signatures on 15,000 randomly selected ballots and found that all of the signatures matched expect 10. Of those 8 were sloppy and 2 were filled out incorrectly. They asked the people who had sent in those ballots. They all affirmed that they were legitimate.

    Then they said dead people voted. GA found 2 cases of that.

    You can get the details with google if you have about 20 minutes, but Your conclusion from this is; “they trotted out the guy who might go to jail if there was fraud and had him say “nope, all good” as the primary evidence. That’s just pissing on people and telling them it’s rain.”

    Why should I believe that you’ll accept the results of some other investigation?
    Why should I believe that Trump, Cruz, or Newsmax will accept the findings and modify their claims? I shouldn’t believe that because it won’t happen. The grifters will continue to make outrage and use that to line their pockets, sell adds, and advance their careers. The people that trust them will continue to think all the noise must mean there’s something there.

    Trump got his investigations. Lots of them all over the country. They didn’t show fraud and he turned up the heat anyway. More investigations aren’t going to effect the behavior of people who aren’t interested in any facts that don’t advance their goals.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  135. Instead we got a series of events that couldn’t do anything but escalate the situation.

    What escalated the situation most was speech and actions of the president and his acolytes. Trump took the stance beforehand that he couldn’t possibly lose a fair election and that Dems were certain to try stealing it from him, and his rabid fans took the same position.

    The Trump team spoke about fraud in the most sinister terms in public, but in court they spoke of “irregularities.” They tried transparently cynical stunts like complaining about changes of voting procedures only in specific states that Trump lost and that had Republican-majority legislatures; they didn’t take issue with other states that made similar changes.

    Privately, GOP legislators mostly didn’t think the election was stolen, but many of them claimed in public that it probably was.

    That’s what escalated the situation.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  136. We could have had independent investigations into election fraud like we did for the Russia claims.

    Is there anyone that Trump and his cult followers would have trusted to be “independent” if their result was not what they wanted?

    Trump has shown us repeatedly that he weighs honesty and integrity on the scale of whether it benefits himself. His rabid fans do the same. Anyone who steps forward with any statement or action not favorable to Trump is quickly branded a traitor and an enemy.

    Listen to the Trump mob. Look at what they’ve posted online. They WILL NOT accept anything but a Trump win as legitimate.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  137. Time123 (cd2ff4) — 1/13/2021 @ 5:33 am

    Extraordinary indeed.

    Sherrill did not specify whether the “groups” were Trump supporters or detail what took place during the “reconnaissance.”

    Maybe it was just members giving constituents a tour. Or maybe not

    when the afflicted do mean and intend only the appearance and shape of such an one, say G. Proctor, yet they positively swear that G. Proctor did afflict them; and they were allowed to do so; as though there was no real difference between G. Proctor and the shape of G. Proctor.

    frosty (f27e97)

  138. The Trumpkins had their chance to prove that they outnumbered Democrats in the Georgia run-off elections. They failed. Case closed.

    nk (1d9030)

  139. 101. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/12/2021 @ 9:08 pm

    They were a result of 2-plus months of speech by Trump,

    In part, because, in the words of Paul Krugman:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/opinion/republicans-democracy.html

    One striking aspect of the Capitol Hill putsch was that none of the rioters’ grievances had any basis in reality.

    The election wasn’t stolen. The Democrats were not about to impose radical Marxist laws. There was no organization of pedophiles who worshiped Satan that included prominent Democrats.

    Neither was there, as some looking for causes said, “economic anxiety.” Maybe social frustrations with personal interactions, and some of that was connected to racism. (paraphrase and condensation)

    starting before the election

    Which is more than 2 months.

    when he said

    on Wednesday, Sepotember 23, 2020, at a White House press conference, in answer to a question if he would “commit here today for a peaceful transferral of power after the November election,”

    It went:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/23/us/politics/trump-power-transfer-2020-election.html

    We’re going to have to see what happens,” he told a reporter during a news conference at the White House. “You know that I’ve been complaining very strongly about the ballots, and the ballots are a disaster.”

    “I understand that, but people are rioting,” responded the reporter, Brian Karem of Playboy magazine, who repeated the question.

    “”We’ll want to have — get rid of the ballots and you’ll have a very — we’ll have a very peaceful — there won’t be a transfer, frankly. There’ll be a continuation.”

    Nic:

    He made the “peaceful” part conditional on getting rid of ballots and having a “continuation” not a “transfer” of power.

    What he’s saying here is that if they don’t use mail-in ballots, there won’t be a transfer because he will win.

    He used the word “peaceful” because he was first repeating the wording of the question, but then changed his mind to disagree with the premise and say that if the election was conducted his way there wouldn’t be any transfer of power.

    He was railing against absentee ballots as a means of committing fraud. He wanted the states to get rid of them (before they were used) That wasn’t going to happen, of course.

    It’s ludicrous to suggest that so much rabble-rousing and fearmongering had no effect on people who see Trump as the only honest politician in D.C. and the only thing standing between them and tyranny.

    You needed more than rabble rousing to cause what happened to happen, and what happened that morning was not triggered by the contents of his speech, that morning, or Mo Brooks’ speech, like members of the House of Representatives are saying.

    This was planned in advanced and all the big marauders probably went directly to the Capitol and came prepared.

    Did the pepper spray, and the gallows and the noose, and the Confederate flag, materialize out of nowhere? Were any of the people in the colorful clothes and the anti-Semitic T–shirts etc, photographed at the Rally at the Ellipse, or walking to the Capitol? No bad pictures have surfaced.

    The whole rally that was supposed to take place at the Northeast Drive of the Capitol Building and scheduled to start at 1 PM, has been placed into the memory hole!

    Donald Trump is indefensible, and not worth your efforts to defend him.

    I’m not defending Donald Trump. I’m defending free speech against its critics.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  140. Time123 (cd2ff4) — 1/13/2021 @ 9:24 am

    This sounds a bit like justifying your position because the other side does things you don’t like. If you think it’s been fully investigated then that seems like the strongest argument. But that doesn’t counter my point.

    Everything you’ve said about 2016 is also true and we didn’t apply the same standard. In that case there were claims that Russia hacked the machines, we checked, found it didn’t happen and the conspiracy continued in a new phase. We continued investigating because “it was obvious, we saw it on TV” and have found no evidence that Russia changed the outcome of 2016 and still the myth persists because they “could have” influenced it. So, yes, people committed to a belief will not release it easily. But there are a lot of people that don’t fall into that category.

    At this point I don’t believe that the people asking for investigations are acting in good faith.

    Yes, there’s a lot of that going around in general. Let’s all keep saying the other side is an evil group of liars and see how that works out.

    frosty (f27e97)

  141. DCSCA, I’m curious, why should someone who has not lost any wages due to COVID get a $2,000 check? What exactly is the additional role that Congress must urgently play at this moment with regards to vaccinations? It would seem that most of the delays now are based on actions that should have been done months ago in anticipation….actions that might have benefited from Executive Branch leadership, no?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  142. 136. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/13/2021 @ 9:31 am

    Is there anyone that Trump and his cult followers would have trusted to be “independent” if their result was not what they wanted?

    No, aad Ted Crus knew that, of course. It was a way of trying to be on both sides.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/opinion/ted-cruz-capitol-attack.html

    In the unctuous, patronizing style he is famous for, Mr. Cruz cited the aftermath of the 1876 presidential election between Rutherford Hayes and Samuel Tilden. It was contentious and involved actual disputes about voter fraud and electoral mayhem, and a committee was formed to sort it out. Mr. Cruz’s idea was to urge the creation of a committee to investigate invented claims of widespread voter fraud — figments of the imaginations of Mr. Trump and minions like Mr. Cruz — in the election of Joe Biden. It was, for Mr. Cruz, a typical, too-clever-by-half bit of nonsense, a cynical ploy to paper over the reality of his subversion on behalf of President Trump.

    She writes, further down:

    Any decent soul might ask: If you are so smart, how come you are using that fancy education to subvert the Constitution you’ve long purported to love? Shouldn’t you have known better? But, of course, Mr. Cruz did know better; he just didn’t care.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  143. 143. You- and the Turtle- really don’t get it.

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  144. nk (1d9030) — 1/13/2021 @ 9:47 am

    The Trumpkins had their chance to prove that they outnumbered Democrats in the Georgia run-off elections. They failed. Case closed.

    Look what else hapened o January 6:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/trump-supporters-also-mobilized-at-state-capitols.html

    In Georgia, law enforcement officers escorted Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger out of the State Capitol on Wednesday afternoon as a few dozen Trump supporters outside the building rallied to protest the recent election results.

    Chris Hill, the leader of a right-wing militia, said he called some of his “troops” to the statehouse to protest, repeating the president’s false claim that the election was “rigged.” Mr. Hill said he believed the nation was headed toward a civil war.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  145. Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:03 am

    I’m not defending Donald Trump. I’m defending free speech against its critics.

    I think we’ve lost our collective minds. I’ve seen in several places the idea now that we’ve got to “curtail” free speech to “save it”.

    frosty (f27e97)

  146. Time123 (cd2ff4) — 1/13/2021 @ 9:24 am

    This sounds a bit like justifying your position because the other side does things you don’t like. If you think it’s been fully investigated then that seems like the strongest argument. But that doesn’t counter my point.

    Everything you’ve said about 2016 is also true and we didn’t apply the same standard. In that case there were claims that Russia hacked the machines, we checked, found it didn’t happen and the conspiracy continued in a new phase. We continued investigating because “it was obvious, we saw it on TV” and have found no evidence that Russia changed the outcome of 2016 and still the myth persists because they “could have” influenced it. So, yes, people committed to a belief will not release it easily. But there are a lot of people that don’t fall into that category.

    At this point I don’t believe that the people asking for investigations are acting in good faith.

    Yes, there’s a lot of that going around in general. Let’s all keep saying the other side is an evil group of liars and see how that works out.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:06 am

    Assertions of fraud have been investigated and not found to be supported by fact. The people like Trump, Hawley, and Cruz saying otherwise are lying. Outlets like Fox, OAN and Newsmax are repeating those lies. So long as this is true those who take their lead from them aren’t going to change their mind.

    No amount of further investigation is going to cause them to change what they’re saying. No information from other sources will change the minds of the people currently following them.

    You’re a good example. You’re smart, you’re well educated, you’re interested in current events and you characterized the investigations that were carried out in GA, by life long republicans who support Trump as “they trotted out the guy who might go to jail if there was fraud and had him say “nope, all good” as the primary evidence. That’s just pissing on people and telling them it’s rain.”

    If you won’t accept the results when presented by lifelong republicans and Trump supporters what independent body will you find more compelling? If you don’t like their process what process would you prefer?

    Time123 (80b471)

  147. . I’ve seen in several places the idea now that we’ve got to “curtail” free speech to “save it”.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:22 am

    Do you have a link to this argument?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  148. @149, I’m sure it’s being made. But it’s a stupid argument and a stupid idea.

    Time123 (80b471)

  149. You really don’t get it; or do and remain terrified by the realization that you are now on the bottom of the deck and essentially GOP irrelevant.

    You keep saying this like Joe Biden didn’t win the presidency in an election that gave NeverTrumpers everything they want. It’s like Justice Kennedy being the most important vote. Nevertrumpers are the most relevant voters now. Everyone else is taken for granted and are manipulated for enthusiasm and cash. Maybe I vote for Romney, maybe I vote for Biden, but I am not voting for Sanders or Cruz, and both parties are recognizing this. That’s why McConnell is ignoring Trump fans now.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  150. @149, I’m sure it’s being made. But it’s a stupid argument and a stupid idea.

    Time123 (80b471) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:28 am

    Frosty is seeing arguments that we need to get rid of free speech to save it. I’d like to know how important this argument is. Is this some rando on democratic underground, or is this some Trump bot redefining speech as ‘Twitter shall host my memes about revolution!’ or is this the safe space I Don’t Tolerate Intolerance thing?

    Frosty’s implication, which of course he did not directly state, is that this is a reaction, that this is new, and that it’s a problem. I want to know if that’s actually true or if this is just crying wolf. Trump fans are very, very hard to nail down to a straight forward, good faith argument, so when they say ‘I am hearing this!!!!’ I just want to see it directly.

    After this stuff at the capitol, Trump fans do not get any trust from me.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  151. There’s no scenario where they don’t stay aggrieved.

    Oh, I dunno. Maybe someone could take a look at their greivences. Maybe between checking their stock portfolios and getting restaurant reservations.

    Sure, there are those among them who are perennial losers, but a lot of them are the type that used to assemble things or build houses. All the Democrats have for them is the dole. All the Republicans have for them is “learn to code.” You cannot, in a democracy, tell 20% of the population they’re redundant and should F off.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  152. Maybe with regards to Trump. How many of those 30 million have changed their mind on China, the economy, lockdowns, foreign war, 2A, immigration, etc? Or wokeness, critical race theory, marxism, or any of the other culture war issues.

    No question, which is why I suggest they regretted their [crappy] choice. I suggest they find a better champion; one who isn’t a stupid, ignorant, lazy, venal, egotistical, self-centered con man.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  153. “Glorious”

    Tedious. Vacuous.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  154. some members of Congress leading people through the Capitol on Jan. 5 in what she termed a “reconnaissance for the next day”

    “adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  155. There’s no scenario where they don’t stay aggrieved.

    Oh, I dunno. Maybe someone could take a look at their greivences. Maybe between checking their stock portfolios and getting restaurant reservations.

    Sure, there are those among them who are perennial losers, but a lot of them are the type that used to assemble things or build houses. All the Democrats have for them is the dole. All the Republicans have for them is “learn to code.” You cannot, in a democracy, tell 20% of the population they’re redundant and should F off.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:35 am

    They’re not voting based on economic policy. They’re voting based on cultural grievance.

    Time123 (80b471)

  156. @153. The ‘trick’ is to lower the flame under the boiling kettle. Start w/getting them their Covid shots, getting them $2000 to tide them over through the Covid emergency times, press on to open up the economy and get ’em, out of lock down and back to their jobs.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  157. No question, which is why I suggest they regretted their [crappy] choice. I suggest they find a better champion; one who isn’t a stupid, ignorant, lazy, venal, egotistical, self-centered con man.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:38 am

    I agree. Many, many Trump voters do not support him now, and many more would not support him if a better option came alone. I get why Mccain had no credibility on immigration and Biden has no credibility on China, but Trump didn’t make things any better. Give these guys a better option. The GOP’s reduction to WWE style campaigning is a strategic mistake. Cruz has read the situation wrong.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  158. @155. Accurate.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  159. . Start w/getting them their Covid shots, getting them $2000 to tide them over through the Covid emergency times, press on to open up the economy and get ’em, out of lock down and back to their jobs.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:42 am

    Yeah once people are back to work, things will definitely get much better. I hope Joe Biden and the democrats see just how incredibly important this is, but it cuts against the dependency that keeps people voting Team D.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  160. I’m not defending Donald Trump. I’m defending free speech against its critics.

    There’s little reason to be so intent on defending the speech if there is no concern to defend the speaker. And the speech cannot reasonably be viewed in isolation from Trump himself and everything he had already done in his efforts to overturn the election, including pressuring officials and threatening Pence (which he did in the speech), and encouraging the crowd to come to D.C. for a “wild” protest.

    In the speech, he used the word “peaceful” once. He used the word “fight” twenty times. When the crowd chanted “Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump!” he said:

    Thank you. I’d love to have, if those tens of thousands of people would be allowed, the military, the secret service, and we want to thank you, and the police law enforcement.

    What did he want the military and the police to do for him? What message would the crowd have taken away? People inside the Capitol said they were there because Trump directed them to be there.

    Trump also said:

    There’s so many weak Republicans. We have great ones, Jim Jordan, and some of these guys. They’re out there fighting the House. Guys are fighting, but it’s incredible.

    He told his supporters that it’s “great” to be “fighting” against any and all in the legislature who wouldn’t throw out millions of citizens’ votes and hand him the win.

    He told them:

    We fight like Hell and if you don’t fight like Hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.

    Looking at the whole context, it would have been entirely reasonable to anticipate that Trump’s fighting words would be heard as license, or instruction, for his devotees to take extreme measures to “fight like hell” against the people supposedly taking their country away from them. It’s also reasonable to believe that Trump’s threatening words against Pence fueled the lynch-mob mentality on display among the Trumpers at the Capitol.

    Trump’s speech was a disgrace.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  161. I agree. Many, many Trump voters do not support him now, and many more would not support him if a better option came alone.

    The November 2020 election tallies do not support that wishful thinking. First, plenty of ‘better options’ in the party ran against him in the 2015 primaries and were soundly defeated. Furthermore the numbers did not decline from the previous cycle for 2020 but increased, so the ‘wishful thinking’ is just that; a wish.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  162. They’re voting based on cultural grievance.

    CHARLES MURRAY, American Enterprise Institute:

    “Trumpism” is the expression by the white working class of a lot of legitimate grievances that it has with the ruling class.

    Everything from the cultural disdain that the ruling class holds the working class in, to the loss of all kinds of manufacturing jobs, the importation of low-skilled labor, all the ways in which, if you’re a member of the working class, you have over the last 30 or 40 years been screwed.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/why-economic-anxiety-is-driving-working-class-voters-to-trumpism

    A fuller exposition at the WSJ, but but may be behind a paywall.

    Work and marriage have been central to American civic culture since the founding, and this held true for the white working class into the 1960s. Almost all of the adult men were working or looking for work, and almost all of them were married.

    Then things started to change. For white working-class men in their 30s and 40s—what should be the prime decades for working and raising a family—participation in the labor force dropped from 96% in 1968 to 79% in 2015. Over that same period, the portion of these men who were married dropped from 86% to 52%. (The numbers for nonwhite working-class males show declines as well, though not as steep and not as continuous.)

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-america-1455290458

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  163. @161. Which makes Nancy’s ‘Impeachment Theater’ a week before the inaugural all the more a waste time and only enhances the anger and perception that they’re all about “THEM”- not “US.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  164. Ragegunda, great comment overall, but I think this part

    I’m not defending Donald Trump. I’m defending free speech against its critics.

    There’s little reason to be so intent on defending the speech if there is no concern to defend the speaker.

    is completely wrong. It’s fine to defend speech rights even when the speaker is scum.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  165. @164. Shorter, “Chuck”: trickle down = pissed on. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  166. @153, “You cannot, in a democracy, tell 20% of the population they’re redundant and should F off.”

    But we also shouldn’t tell them that we can tariff our way to prosperity…or that government-make-work jobs are the way of the future. It’s an incredibly hard problem…..that the authors of the Bell Curve brought up back in the ’90’s (of course, race and IQ were the only things pundits wanted to analyze)…and though the GOP needs to be more empathetic/creative about government helping people to transition jobs, the basic message of lowering business costs/regulations and encouraging new markets is the right prescription. If there was some silver bullet, someone would have run into it by now. Getting government more involved in what people should train for implies that government bureaucrats are great at market planning. I don’t see that.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  167. Cruz has read the situation wrong.

    Maybe yes, maybe no. If I were Cruz, and having done what he did (I wouldn’t have, but let’s say), he has cemented his credibility with the Trump faithful, and he has many qualities that Trump lacked. He has a tiny problem with the non-Trump wing of the party, the center, and getting the subject off of him being a riot-fan. But time may fix that. He is certainly a better choice than Trump is/was.

    Trump exposed a lot of issues that both parties had been ignoring. The Democrats have picked up on the China/jobs issue, but are kind of stuck with their immigration promises which don’t play well among non-Hispanic trades people. The GOP would have a problem breaking away from free trade, had not Trump cast them adrift. I doubt you will see the next GOP candidate talking about how CHinese products are good for America.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  168. Time123 (80b471) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:26 am

    If you won’t accept the results when presented by lifelong republicans and Trump supporters what independent body will you find more compelling? If you don’t like their process what process would you prefer?

    You’re making the mistake of thinking that because I can articulate an argument that I agree with it.

    But this

    Addressing voting rights issues has been a core responsibility for the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights since the Commission was founded in 1957. The Commission has broad authority over voting rights. It has general jurisdiction to examine allegations regarding the right of U.S. citizens to vote and to have their votes counted. These allegations may include, but are not limited to, allegations of discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, age, disability, or national origin.

    Pursuant to its authority, and fulfilling its obligations, members of the Commission staff conducted a preliminary investigation and discovered widespread allegations of voter disenfranchisement in Florida in the 2000 presidential election. The Commissioners voted unanimously to conduct an extensive public investigation into these allegations of voting irregularities. Toward that end, the Commission held three days of hearings in Miami and Tallahassee and, using its subpoena powers, collected more than 30 hours of testimony from more than 100 witnesses—all taken under oath—and reviewed more than 118,000 pages of pertinent documents.

    was a thing. If I want to convince a lot of people the election wasn’t stolen I might try that. And it doesn’t matter what I think about it. It matters what the people I want to convince think.

    frosty (f27e97)

  169. But we also shouldn’t tell them that we can tariff our way to prosperity

    What’s a tariff? A protectionist thing like steel tariffs? An anti-dumping or anti-subsidy thing like solar panel tariffs? Or an attention-getting thing like happens in a trade dispute? It matters.

    Tariffs are taxes, but they are basically “sin taxes” as they are primarily intended to get you to buy something else with your money. You can make the same argument against a tax on beer as you can against a tariff.

    The idea, though is to get manufacturing done here. Tariffs are but a tool, and a fairly blunt one with collateral damage. We have laws that criminalize overseas bribery. Suppose we had laws that criminalized overseas pollution, or complicity in slave labor? Or put standards on child labor? China lets our companies do things that would not be tolerated here. There’s a reason we cannot compete, and it isn’t wages, at least not in high tech.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  170. is completely wrong. It’s fine to defend speech rights even when the speaker is scum.

    Time123 (cd2ff4) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:53 am

    Absolutely.

    . If I were Cruz, and having done what he did (I wouldn’t have, but let’s say), he has cemented his credibility with the Trump faithful, and he has many qualities that Trump lacked. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/13/2021 @ 11:00 am

    Indeed it’s ingenius in a sense. Cruz realizes Trump’s fans do not care about authenticity or honesty. They don’t mind that he’s Lyin’ Ted one bit. They care about other stuff. Cruz is a smart guy, too. But damn he is not likeable. Add up all the Republicans who have voted for Cruz or Trump in a primary and I get he has a path to the prize. But Trump is about to enter a year of losing comparisons to the ‘Biden Recovery’ the vaccine working, folks revealing all these awful secrets about the administration, and this sense we want to turn the page on all that. I think Cruz’s play was a sunken cost fallacy. He bent the knee early and followed that path with determination, even after Trump steered that path into a brick wall. McConnell and Liz Cheney see it, but Cruz is stuck.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  171. Most cars sold in America are made in America. Even most foreign-brand cars sold in America are made in America. Why is that true, but most electronics is not?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  172. the vaccine working

    Of all the comparisons to Biden, this one is just unfair. Had it not been for concerted effort on the part of the drug companies, the vaccines would have been announced before the election, and in any event were made in record time on Trump’s watch.

    Trump did most things poorly, but this is one where he did OK.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  173. It’s fine to defend speech rights even when the speaker is scum.

    In fact it is the best time to do it. It is no heroism to defend a speaker everyone agrees with, nor it is especially heroic to defend a controversial speaker YOU agree with. I would have no problem defending, say, Angela Davis’ right to give a lecture (although I probably wouldn’t be there to listen).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  174. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:35 am

    You cannot, in a democracy, tell 20% of the population they’re redundant and should F off.

    We can, and we are, and you’ve hit the point. If elections are free and fair, all hail democracy and our free and fair elections, our leaders, etc., we need to come up with a better plan.

    frosty (f27e97)

  175. Most cars sold in America are made in America. Even most foreign-brand cars sold in America are made in America. Why is that true, but most electronics is not?

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/13/2021 @ 11:13 am

    Lots of reasons, but basically it has to do with Currency, production costs and shipping costs. It’s a lot cheaper to ship car parts then cars. Also, it’s easier to be responsive to market trends if you don’t have a ocean shipping pipeline to deal with.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  176. @170, where are what do you want them to investigate?

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  177. Time123 (cd2ff4) — 1/13/2021 @ 10:53 am

    There’s little reason to be so intent on defending the speech if there is no concern to defend the speaker.

    is completely wrong. It’s fine to defend speech rights even when the speaker is scum.

    Not only is it wrong, but it’s also the primary tactic for attacking free speech. The only time speech needs to be defended is when the speaker, or speech, is unpopular.

    Other versions of this argument:

    You only want a gun because you want to shoot someone.
    You only have a problem with troops staying at your house because you’ve sided with the enemy.
    You don’t need privacy if you’ve nothing to hide.
    Confession is good for the soul.
    Only criminals need attorneys.

    frosty (f27e97)

  178. Well, there’s a deeper problem with Trump’s tariffs than what we call them….they’re largely based on the faulty economic premise that trade deficits are inherently bad….and that a manufacturer in this country is destroying our wealth by purchasing Canada steel over U.S. steel….and thus must be punished….raising the cost of being a manufacturer in this country. There is no correlation between trade deficits and how the economy is doing in terms of inflation, growth, and productivity. The “sin” isn’t that you are adding to health care costs in this country, it’s that you are saving $100 by purchasing electronics from Korea instead of in country. I’m not going to argue that tariffs should never be used in foreign policy or that we shouldn’t fight aggressively for countries to follow basic rules, but show me how the net economy grows by placing a bunch more barriers to international trade. That seems like short-term thinking.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  179. @173. Well, maybe…

    https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/american-cars-that-are-not

    American Cars That Really Aren’t American

    “Nothing exemplifies America more than the rumble of a 707-horsepower Dodge Challenger Hellcat or the pride we feel in the Ford GT supercar. Bad news though, they’re not American. We need to thank our friends from north of the border and fly the Canadian maple leaf in their honor.

    Many of the vehicles that we think are U.S.-made come from across our borders, including one from Australia that proudly wears a Chevy bow tie. There will soon be an SUV with a Buick nameplate arriving from China, and we already have a Jeep that hails from Italy.

    If any of these foreign-born cars or trucks on the following slides gets your attention, check them out further in our listings of Best Cars, then look for special lease and finance deals on our site. Before you head to the dealer, use our Best Price Program so you don’t pay too much for your dream ride.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  180. Time123 (cd2ff4) — 1/13/2021 @ 11:25 am

    @170, where are what do you want them to investigate?

    Do what they did after 2000.

    Pursuant to its authority, and fulfilling its obligations, members of the Commission staff conducted a preliminary investigation and discovered widespread allegations of voter disenfranchisement in …

    It’s in the quote. Do a preliminary investigation of all allegations including ones that would address

    They tried transparently cynical stunts like complaining about changes of voting procedures only in specific states that Trump lost and that had Republican-majority legislatures; they didn’t take issue with other states that made similar changes.

    If there are allegations against new voting procedures investigate all of them instead of just the partisan ones. If you think this is me trying to sneak in some #stopthesteal with a *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge* you are missing the point. It does not matter what I beleive. It matters that

    A new Quinnipiac University poll says 77% of Republicans believe there was widespread voter fraud during the November election between President Donald Trump and Democrat Joe Biden.

    In a deeply polarized nation, 60% of registered voters polled believe that Biden’s victory was legitimate, but 34% do not.

    those are not good numbers when it comes to faith in our elections.

    frosty (f27e97)

  181. Frosty, Seems pointless. Newsmax, OAN, Trump and Fox aren’t going to accept any findings that don’t serve their interests. That means the 77%, if they hear about it at all, aren’t going to change their mind because of it.

    Every state has processes to vote, check the vote, double check the vote, and allow losing candidates to challenge the results. Those things have been done. They didn’t find fraud. It doesn’t sound like you have any specific disagreement with those processes or findings.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  182. In a deeply polarized nation, 60% of registered voters polled believe that Biden’s victory was legitimate, but 34% do not.

    those are not good numbers when it comes to faith in our elections.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/13/2021 @ 11:58 am

    This unfortunate state came about because the losing candidate repeatedly asserter that there had been fraud. He did this over and over again despite not having evidence to support his assertion and the GOP supported him.

    We don’t need more data or investigation. We need Trump and the GOP to stop making claims they’re unable to prove.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  183. Time123 (cd2ff4) — 1/13/2021 @ 12:17 pm

    This unfortunate state came about because the losing candidate …

    This is a very shortsighted view of why this came about.

    We don’t need more data or investigation. We need Trump and the GOP to stop making claims they’re unable to prove.

    We can deplatform that message. When that doesn’t work what’s the plan?

    frosty (f27e97)

  184. Time123 (cd2ff4) — 1/13/2021 @ 12:17 pm

    This unfortunate state came about because the losing candidate …

    This is a very shortsighted view of why this came about.

    The libs didn’t make Trump lie non-stop for 3 months that the election was stolen. The libs didn’t make the GOP repeat the lie.
    The libs didn’t make Trump try to get GA to ‘find’ 12K votes
    The libs didn’t make Trump try to get Pence to overturn the election.
    The libs didn’t make the GOP go along with all of it.

    I believe in personal responsibility. People own their actions and words.

    We don’t need more data or investigation. We need Trump and the GOP to stop making claims they’re unable to prove.

    We can deplatform that message. When that doesn’t work what’s the plan?

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/13/2021 @ 12:23 pm

    My plan is to treat people that are buying the election was stolen or we need to more investigation as conspiracy theorist and take them as seriously as I do flat earthers, anti-vaxers, and people that want to sell me essential oils.

    Time123 (80b471)

  185. We need more investigation of this round-earth thing, if you ask me!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

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