Patterico's Pontifications

1/11/2021

Manic Monday: House Republicans Say No, First Lady Scolds America For Gossiping About Her

Filed under: General — Dana @ 11:26 am



[guest post by Dana]

[Ed. Pre-emptive strike: I blame the post-insurrection surreality of Washington D.C. for the disjointedness of this post.…]

Democrats move to oust Trump:

Impeachment pressure mounting, the House worked swiftly Monday to try to oust President Donald Trump from office, pushing the vice president and Cabinet to act first in an extraordinary effort to remove Trump in the final days of his presidency.

Trump faces a single charge — “incitement of insurrection” – in an impeachment resolution that could go to a vote by mid-week. First, Democrats called on Vice President Mike Pence to invoke constitutional authority under the 25th Amendment to remove Trump from office before Jan. 20, when Democrat Joe Biden is to be inaugurated.

“President Trump gravely endangered the security of the United States and its institutions of Government,” reads the four-page impeachment bill.

“He will remain a threat to national security, democracy, and the Constitution if allowed to remain in office,” it reads.

On Monday, a House resolution calling on Vice President Pence to invoke constitutional authority to remove Trump from office was blocked by Republicans. However, the full House is set to hold a roll call vote on that resolution on Tuesday, and it is expected to pass.

After that, Pelosi said Pence will have 24 hours to respond. Next, the House would proceed to impeachment. A vote could come Wednesday.

Pence has given no indication he is ready to proceed on such a course, which would involve invoking the 25th Amendment to the Constitution with a vote by a majority of the Cabinet to oust Trump before he leaves office.

Full text of the resolution here.

Meanwhile, there has finally been a member of the First Family who has publicly commented on last week’s insurrection at the U.S. Capitol. In part, from First Lady Melania Trump:

Most recently, my heart goes out to: Air Force Veteran, Ashli Babbitt, Benjamin Philips, Kevin Greeson, Roseanne Boyland, and Capitol Police Officers, Brian Sicknick and Howard Liebengood. I pray for their families comfort and strength during this difficult time.

I am disappointed and disheartened with what happened last week. I find it shameful that surrounding these tragic events there has been salacious gossip, unwarranted personal attacks, and false misleading accusations on me – from people who are looking to be relevant and have an agenda. This time is solely about healing our country and its citizens. It should not be used for personal gain.

While the First Lady mourned the lives lost, she certainly doesn’t believe that her husband had any hand in last week’s insurrection. Apparently, he was just an innocent bystander with no power to stop it from happening. But she is clearly annoyed that people have said mean things about her. I mean, what was she supposed to do? Talk to him, attempt to intervene, plead and demand that he stop the madness as it happened? She was busy, people:.

As thousands of pro-Trump supporters streamed into Washington, DC, Wednesday headed first to the Ellipse to hear President Donald Trump speak, and then to the United States Capitol to lay siege to the epicenter of American democracy, first lady Melania Trump was doing a photo shoot at the White House.

Professional lighting, the sort used for photography and videography, could be seen through the windows of the White House. “Photos were being taken of rugs and other items in the Executive Residence and the East Wing,” a person familiar with the day’s activities with the first lady told CNN. Trump — who, as CNN has reported, has expressed interest in writing a coffee table book about decorative objects she has amassed and had restored in the White House — was overseeing the photo project, said the source, with her remaining time in the White House dwindling.

And yet, just a short distance away, this horrific scene was unfolding:

But sure Melania, tell us all about that mean gossip…

Anyway, the President himself has been in hiding since last week’s stilted video (that he apparently later regretted making). However, this morning he presented the Medal of Freedom to his unwavering ally, Rep. Jim Jordan of Ohio. Last week, the president presented the medal to…Rep. Devin Nunes in what one assumes was a mooving ceremony. As of late, Nunes was seen on Fox News Channel complaining that Republicans no longer have any means to communicate…

P.S And because it’s a manic Monday, here’s another bit of WTF to add to the pile:

Starting this week and running through at least Inauguration Day, armed protests are being planned at all 50 state capitols and at the U.S. Capitol, according to an internal FBI bulletin obtained by ABC News.

The FBI has also received information in recent days on a group calling for “storming” state, local and federal government courthouses and administrative buildings in the event President Donald Trump is removed from office prior to Inauguration Day. The group is also planning to “storm” government offices in every state the day President-elect Joe Biden will be inaugurated, regardless of whether the states certified electoral votes for Biden or Trump.

“The FBI received information about an identified armed group intending to travel to Washington, DC on 16 January,” the bulletin read. “They have warned that if Congress attempts to remove POTUS via the 25th Amendment, a huge uprising will occur.”

I am looking forward to Trumpists everywhere, from the private citizens to the Republican leadership currently pleading for unity and healing while ignoring *who* fomented the insurrection, to step up to the plate and publicly object to this divisive move. Any minute now…

–Dana

171 Responses to “Manic Monday: House Republicans Say No, First Lady Scolds America For Gossiping About Her”

  1. Hoo boy.

    Dana (cc9481)

  2. Was the award to Jim Jordan for covering up the sexual abuse to teen boys?

    Time123 (306531)

  3. I’m sure that Devin Nunes is devastated that the President must have terrible laryngitis that makes him incapable of holding a press conference. Because as far as I can tell, the rest of the Republicans are communicating just fine.

    Nic (896fdf)

  4. I agree with Melania here. I’m not sure she is relevant to the news. Nor do I think her doing a photo-shoot is particularly news-worthy.

    nate_w (1f1d55)

  5. Good God! Rodney King didn’t get beat that badly. I’m going to guess that 1) had the cops in the doorway been armed, there would have been a different result, and 2) every effort is being made to identify those beating the officer.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  6. nate_w,

    Melania Trump has an enormous platform as the First Lady of the United States. That she didn’t use it to condemn an insurrection on the U.S. Capitol but rather put her hurt feelings front and center is telling. And I think the contrast of said First Lady with her enormous platform doing a photoshoot for a coffee table book she is working on while the chaos unfolding at the Capitol is even more telling.

    Dana (cc9481)

  7. I would also add, nate_w, that to not see Melania Trump as relevant to the news given her position as First Lady and wife of the President, is to diminish the position. While they typically are not policymakers etc., they have the ear of sitting Presidents like no other person, and thus have tremendous influence and ability to sway them.

    Dana (cc9481)

  8. I can’t be the only person wishing they could volunteer to guard the capitol on the 20th. This is infuriating and brutal, these people are simply evil, and everyone there could have jumped in to stop this but didn’t. Cops are on their own, blamed by everyone for decisions made over their pay grade, treated like disposable, supported with stupid stickers.

    The leaders who left the cops so understaffed and unprepared should be put in prison.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  9. Would you defend the capitol with just a light nightstick?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. They actually fired the people in charge of the Capitol police and both sergeants-at-arms. To be understood better is why everyone else was told to stand down. OTOH, there’s 2000 Capitol police. Only some of them were armed, but that should have been enough to hold off the mob.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  11. The video is utterly reprehensible. I can’t believe that Trump and Mrs. Trump have not seen it. And I can’t believe that those who witnessed it in person really believe, at the bottom of their hearts, that it was Antifa members involved. But as we’ve seen, there isn’t a lot of moral fiber and fortitude within the ranks of the Trump superfans, and so, what would normally be seen by the vast majority of Americans as a ghastly and unacceptable incident is easily written off with a lie: it was Antifa. This is Trump’s way, and he has trained his people well.

    Dana (cc9481)

  12. Republican No More: The GOP’s Existential Crisis

    In the wake of the trauma of the last two months, two inescapable questions emerge. First, what does it mean to be republican? And second, does the Republican Party represent those values at all any more?

    The answers to both have led me to disaffiliate myself from the GOP after the disgrace that took place in Congress last week, with not just tacit but explicit cooperation from party leadership. Granted, in Minnesota, it’s easy to disaffiliate as the state does not have any affiliation attached to its voter registration process, so the only action necessary is to just tell people you’re no longer a member of the party. Still, at this point it’s impossible to act as though Republicans are republican, especially while its leadership makes clear that it doesn’t care one whit about the party’s own foundational principles.
    ….
    What we have seen from Republicans over the last two months — but especially on Wednesday — has violated every single one of these principles of republicanism and federalism. In our federalist system and as established in the Constitution, the states have full jurisdiction in elections, even those for federal office. Their certifications have always been accepted as proper unless challengers produce explicit evidence of specific fraud in a large enough number of ballots to where it calls the results into question. The burden of proof to overcome state certification rests with challengers to prove the fraud, not on the states to prove a negative, as is proper in American jurisprudence more broadly. And even then, the forum for those challenges are in state courts, not Congress, if one abides by republican and federalist principles.

    Instead, what we saw on Wednesday were Republicans, including their House leadership, pandering to a mob by pretending that Congress had any authority at all over the certified results of elections in the states. They did so on behalf of a president who appears incapable of relinquishing power in an orderly and lawful manner, as though power was his birthright and any election results to the contrary were ipso facto invalid. Republicans in both chambers justified these actions not from any principle, but by explicitly citing the mobs of people that prefer to believe in conspiracy theories stoked by this president and his advisers. Rather than standing on republican and federalist principles, they lied to these supporters and led them to believe that Congress could actually change the results of these elections — and stoked the fury of the mobs when it didn’t happen.
    ……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  13. I’ve added a P.S. to the post:

    And because it’s a manic Monday, here’s another bit of WTF to add to the pile:

    Starting this week and running through at least Inauguration Day, armed protests are being planned at all 50 state capitols and at the U.S. Capitol, according to an internal FBI bulletin obtained by ABC News.

    The FBI has also received information in recent days on a group calling for “storming” state, local and federal government courthouses and administrative buildings in the event President Donald Trump is removed from office prior to Inauguration Day. The group is also planning to “storm” government offices in every state the day President-elect Joe Biden will be inaugurated, regardless of whether the states certified electoral votes for Biden or Trump.

    “The FBI received information about an identified armed group intending to travel to Washington, DC on 16 January,” the bulletin read. “They have warned that if Congress attempts to remove POTUS via the 25th Amendment, a huge uprising will occur.”

    I am looking forward to Trumpists everywhere, from the private citizens to the Republican leadership currently pleading for unity and healing while ignoring *who* fomented the insurrection, to step up to the plate and publicly object to this divisive move. Any minute now…

    Dana (cc9481)

  14. By yesterday, Brian Sicknick’s family had received sympathy calls from Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi.

    Anything from Trump? Guess.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  15. I think McCarthy is pretty spot-on here:
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/01/democrats-need-a-do-over-on-their-impeachment-article/

    Particularly, on what the impeachment ought to be:

    (a.) subversion of the Constitution’s electoral process, particularly the Twelfth Amendment counting of the sovereign states’ electoral votes;

    (b.) recklessly encouraging a raucous political demonstration that foreseeably devolved into a violent storming of the seat of our government; and

    (c.) depraved indifference to the welfare of the vice president, Congress, security personnel, and other Americans who were in and around the Capitol on January 6.

    whembly (a500a7)

  16. @2

    Was the award to Jim Jordan for covering up the sexual abuse to teen boys?

    Time123 (306531) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:39 am

    Pretty sure that was debunked Time…

    whembly (a500a7)

  17. I think McCarthy is pretty spot-on here:

    Republicans want to surrender to the insurrectionists by saying if Congress does anything they will be offended. It’s called the hecklers’ veto.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  18. @17 Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/11/2021 @ 1:11 pm
    I’m not sure I’m following. McCarthy is literally arguing for a successful impeachment.

    whembly (a500a7)

  19. Grounds for Impeachment
    ……
    Last Wednesday, Trump publicly urged Vice President Pence to interfere with the counting of the electoral votes. He maintained that Pence, and Pence alone, could “send it back” to the states for the appointment of different electors. And he complained bitterly when Pence failed to do so….
    ……
    ……[T]he President’s urging the Vice President to commit an impeachable offense was itself impeachable. Refusing to leave office is a high crime or misdemeanor if anything is. And soliciting a high crime or misdemeanor is itself a high crime or misdemeanor, even if unsuccessful.

    Many people saw Trump’s efforts as foolish, and the hopes he held out of continuing in power (notwithstanding the electoral college vote) as unserious. But other people took them seriously. Thus the Capitol was attacked. The President’s faithlessness has cost five people their lives, and his impeachment is already overdue.
    >>>>>>>>

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  20. It is hard to discuss that video without sounding like an internet tough guy. I’ve worked a lot of protests, some very heated ones, and I’ve been shouted at by folks who didn’t understand why there were so many extra cops around. It is probably the most predictable thing protestors, left or right, would complain about. “why do you need so many cops here when you could be fighting real crime?” The only times I’ve ever seen a protest get out of hand is when my leaders didn’t have the time to plan staffing, and if that happened, they would be there with us. I hope the Capitol police sees mass resignations. It is not that hard to get a job as a cop in the USA today. Everyone treated like this should GTFO.

    Officer Sicknick isn’t the only person who died because of this. The protestors are the primary beneficiary of safety around them, for them to scream stuff they do not think people want to hear.

    I struggle to imagine the administration wanted those nooses put to use, wanted hostages and a crisis, wanted that Insurrection Act stuff to be a play. That is Q Anon level nuts, right? Could this just be an obnoxious apathy from Trump just refusing to lend a hand, unconcerned with the harm that caused? The damage to the United States from Wednesday will last.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  21. “… in what one assumes was a mooving ceremony”
    I’d like to think that the bovine overtones of that typo might be meaningful in this context. But maybe more like “mad cow” than “contented cow.”
    Frankly, I’m surprised to see Trump do anything but sulk. When will it finally dawn on him what is coming for him?

    Roger (782680)

  22. @18-
    No, he is not:

    I have urged (here and here) that there are better ways to handle the current crisis in light of the fact that President Trump will be out of office in (now) nine days. Regardless of what I think would be the best course of action ……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  23. Good God! Rodney King didn’t get beat that badly

    Uhh…yes he did.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  24. @22 Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/11/2021 @ 1:19 pm
    Instead of cherry picking something out of context, maybe read the whole thing?

    Look, here’s the rest of the paragraph:

    …Regardless of what I think would be the best course of action, though, the Democrats run the House. Impeachment is the constitutional remedy for egregious presidential misconduct. Therefore, Democrats are within their rights to press for impeachment; indeed, many Republicans agree that impeachment is the best way forward — and most probably would if we were months, rather than just days, from the end of Trump’s term.

    He specifically made a case for impeachment earlier that paragraph:

    CAN THERE BE A CONSENSUS IMPEACHMENT?

    If what the Democrats truly want is bipartisan consensus in the service of national security, rather than political combat, the articles of impeachment they plan to file should charge the president with (a) subversion of the Constitution’s electoral process, particularly the Twelfth Amendment counting of the sovereign states’ electoral votes; (b) recklessly encouraging a raucous political demonstration that foreseeably devolved into a violent storming of the seat of our government; and (c) depraved indifference to the welfare of the vice president, Congress, security personnel, and other Americans who were in and around the Capitol on January 6.

    That would be an accurate description of impeachable offenses. It would not disintegrate into legal wrangling over incitement, insurrection, and causation.

    Nothing here that would remotely support your “heckler’s veto” label… in fact, it’s literally the opposite.

    whembly (a500a7)

  25. Uhh…yes he did.

    Rodney King–Alive, Officer Sicknick–Not alive. There’s an easy way to compare.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  26. Rep. Devin Nunes in what one assumes was a mooving ceremony.

    Honoring Nunes shows Trump’s refusal to be cowed by a leftist mob which steers every controversy toward point scoring against anyone they have a beef with, and milks every tragedy in service of its herd mentality Marxist agenda. Count the days until Nunes is grilled and skewered mercilessly by the all hat and no cattle Dem Congress.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  27. ‘One man may seem incompetent;
    Another not make sense;
    While others look like quite a waste;
    Of company expense;
    They need a brother’s leadership;
    So please don’t do them in;
    Remember, mediocrity;
    Is not a mortal sin…’

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n_4t7KcJsQ

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  28. Rodney King–Alive, Officer Sicknick–Not alive. There’s an easy way to compare.

    I’ve seen nothing that says that was Officer Sicknick in that video.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  29. So, why are these people so enraged? I doubt that any of them would have agree, had you asked them 6 months ago if they would do something like this. Many would have been offended. It is easy to see them as the “other” (and indeed they may see us that way), but there is no future in that. Are we disintegrating as a nation? Over, God help us, TRUMP!?!?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  30. So, I am reading a book Dave suggested (The Impending Crisis) about the politics that led up to the Civil War. We are not now so very unlike them then.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  31. The National Guard plans to deploy up to 15,000 troops to Washington, D.C., for the inauguration to guard against any violent attempt by pro-Trump mobs to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power
    — WaPo 1/11/2021

    So, now we have soldiers defending the “peaceful transfer of power.” Yeah, I get it, but this is a signpost on the way to disaster.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  32. @2
    Was the award to Jim Jordan for covering up the sexual abuse to teen boys?
    Time123 (306531) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:39 am

    Pretty sure that was debunked Time…

    whembly (a500a7) — 1/11/2021 @ 1:09 pm

    No, there’s compelling evidence that he helped cover it up.

    Here’s a more recent link from last year.

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — Another former member of the Ohio State wrestling team is accusing current U.S. Rep. Jim Jordan of inaction during his time as an assistant coach, standing silent as a team doctor molested hundreds.

    Adam DiSabato, who wrestled for the Buckeyes between 1988 and ’93 and made the rank of team captain, testified Tuesday before the Ohio House Civil Justice Committee. DiSabato told state lawmakers he told both assistant Jordan and head coach Russ Hellickson of Dr. Richard Strauss’ sexual abuse of members of the team, but the pair “did nothing.”

    “They told me they went to their superiors, [and] their superiors told them to be happy where we’re at and keep our mouths shut,” DiSabato said, while adding that one of those superiors was OSU football legend and two-time Heisman Trophy winner Archie Griffin. “We were told to shut up and not touch anybody that bugged with us, not just Strauss, but the other ones that congregated in the open atmosphere they kept us in.”

    Time123 (ae9d89)

  33. “…but this is a signpost on the way to disaster.”

    Been there, done that; 1968 Washington, D.C., Riots:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Washington,_D.C.,_riots

    ‘The Washington, D.C., riots of 1968 were a four-day period of violent civil unrest and rioting following the assassination of leading African American civil rights activist Martin Luther King Jr., on April 4, 1968. Part of the broader King-assassination riots that affected at least 110 U.S. cities, those in Washington, D.C.—along with those in Chicago and Baltimore—were among those with the greatest numbers of participants.’

    “On Friday, April 5, [1968] President Johnson dispatched 11,850 federal troops and 1,750 D.C. Army National Guardsmen to assist the overwhelmed D.C. police force. Marines mounted machine guns on the steps of the Capitol and Army soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Regiment guarded the White House. The 2nd Brigade Combat Team of the 82nd Airborne Division from Fort Bragg, North Carolina and 6th Cavalry Regiment from Fort Meade, Maryland were among the principal federal forces sent to the city. At one point, on April 5, rioting reached within two blocks of the White House before rioters retreated. The occupation of Washington was the largest of any American city since the Civil War.

    Federal troops and National Guardsmen imposed a strict curfew, worked riot control, patrolled the streets, guarded looted stores, and provided aid to those who were displaced by the rioting. They continued to remain after the rioting had officially ceased to protect against a second riot and further damage.”

    ‘Dick Cheney responded with one word in [an] interview when he was asked what he thought about polls that indicate two-thirds of Americans believe the war in Iraq was not worth fighting, that the cost in lives was not worth the gains. “So?” the vice president said.

    He is “you”; it is that kind of entrenched, elitist, callous arrogance that has fired up Pat Buchanan’s pitch-forkers, by way of Trump, to the boiling mad point and have them steaming md at government gates across the land.

    And the powers that be STILL don’t get it.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  34. I’d like to think that the bovine overtones of that typo might be meaningful in this context.

    That isn’t a typo. At all. I’ll italicize it for clarity.

    Dana (cc9481)

  35. Sorry, wrong thread

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  36. WHERE is the vaccine; WHERE is the $2000, both of which so many desperate Americans need???

    Another day lost.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  37. 74% Of Voters Say Democracy In The U.S. Is Under Threat, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; 52% Say President Trump Should Be Removed From Office
    …..
    A majority of voters, 56 percent, say they hold President Trump responsible for the storming of the U.S. Capitol, while 42 percent say they do not hold him responsible.

    A slight majority, 52 – 45 percent, say President Trump should be removed from office. Voters also say 53 – 43 percent that he should resign as president.

    “A majority of Americans hold President Trump responsible for the chaos at the Capitol, and a slight majority believe that he should be removed from office,” added Malloy.

    President Trump has a negative 33 – 60 percent job approval rating, which is a substantial drop from the negative 44 – 51 percent rating he received in December of 2020.

    The president’s job approval rating today ties his all-time low, which he received in August of 2017.

    Voters are divided on whether they think President Trump is mentally stable. Forty-five percent say he is mentally stable, while 48 percent say he is not mentally stable. The findings are nearly identical to responses from a January 2018 poll, when 45 percent of voters said they thought Trump was mentally stable and 47 percent said he was not.
    ……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  38. Chad Wolf has resigned as acting secretary for the Homeland Security Department

    Chad F. Wolf, the acting secretary for the Homeland Security Department, resigned on Monday, just nine days before he was expected to help coordinate the security of a presidential inauguration facing heightened threats of violence.

    Mr. Wolf told employees of the Homeland Security Department he would be stepping down on Monday night in part because of court rulings that invalidated some of the Trump administration’s immigration policies, citing the likelihood that Mr. Wolf was unlawfully appointed to lead the agency.

    “Unfortunately, this action is warranted by recent events, including the ongoing and meritless court rulings regarding the validity of my authority as Acting Secretary,” Mr. Wolf said in the letter obtained by The New York Times. “These events and concerns increasingly serve to divert attention and resources away from the important work of the Department in this critical time of a transition of power.”

    Mr. Wolf did not address the deadly siege of the Capitol in his letter.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  39. @38.

    -48 Percent Of Americans Believe UFOs Could Be ET Visitations. Nearly half the population believes UFOs could be a sign of extraterrestrial visitation. A HuffPost/YouGov poll reveals that 48 percent of adults in the United States are open to the idea that alien spacecraft are observing our planet and just 35 percent outright reject the idea. The poll was seen as vindication from the community of UFO researchers who often feel they are laughed off by government officials.

    -A new Quinnipiac poll says that 77 percent of Republicans believe there was widespread voter fraud in the November election.

    -According to a new FiveThirtyEight-commissioned SurveyMonkey poll of 5,130 adults, conducted Oct. 17 to Oct. 20, 2017, only 33 percent of Americans believe that one man was responsible for the Kennedy assassination. A majority, 61 percent, think that others were involved in a conspiracy. In pretty much every demographic, most respondents believed that Oswald didn’t act alone.

    -A survey reveals that 12% of Americans believe Elvis is still alive, with a margin of error of 4 percentage points.

    “Thank you. Thank you very much.” – Elvis Presley

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  40. -A survey reveals that 12% of Americans believe Elvis is still alive, with a margin of error of 4 percentage points.

    Juno spacecraft discovers FM radio signal coming from Jupiter moon

    nk (1d9030)

  41. FM? I think not.

    NOt only is the 6MHz band not where “FM” lies on our radio bands, but “FM” means frequency modulation, and modulation implies a signal is applied to a carrier. Which is NOT happening.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  42. From the First Mannequin: This time is solely about healing our country and its citizens. It should not be used for personal gain.

    Now, a captious person might be struck by the feckless irony of “It should not be used for personal gain.” Not me.

    I’m struck by “This time is solely about healing our country and its citizens.” There is no way I’ll believe that Melania knows what “solely” and “healing” mean, except as maybe something to do with shoes.

    nk (1d9030)

  43. 48 Percent Of Americans Believe UFOs Could Be ET Visitations.

    This explains a lot. Also, the question explains a lot since NONE of the people they asked could offer any evidence one way or the other. The 52% are just as silly as the 48%.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. So, now we have soldiers defending the “peaceful transfer of power.” Yeah, I get it, but this is a signpost on the way to disaster.
    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 2:15 pm

    As long as the National Guard shows up locked and loaded and lets the enemy know it, there will be no disaster.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  45. But long term, it is not OK that you need an army to get the GOP to hand power over to the democrats.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  46. @41/42. Classic Rock, Easy Listening- or the long-awaited ‘Send More Chuck Berry’ ????!!!!

    ‘No static at all; EFFFF-EMMMM.’ ‘FM’ Steely Dan, 1978

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  47. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 2:15 pm

    So, now we have soldiers defending the “peaceful transfer of power.” Yeah, I get it, but this is a signpost on the way to disaster.

    Hopefully, they’ve checked that all of those 15k agree Biden is the next POTUS. Maybe it’s time for some loyalty oaths.

    frosty (f27e97)

  48. 29.So, why are these people so enraged? I doubt that any of them would have agree, had you asked them 6 months ago if they would do something like this. Many would have been offended. It is easy to see them as the “other” (and indeed they may see us that way), but there is no future in that. Are we disintegrating as a nation? Over, God help us, TRUMP!?!?

    Where. Have. You. Been?? “These people” as been frustrated and fermenting and festering and fuming and w/angst, head to a boil over for 25 years:

    “They are in a terminal panic. They hear the shouts of the peasants from over the hill. All the knights and barons will be riding into the castle pulling up the drawbridge in a minute. All the peasants are coming with pitchforks. We’re going to take this over the top.” – Pat Buchanan, 1996

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  49. frosty thinks he’s joking, but the DC National Guard is under the command of the Secretary of the Army, the same schnitzel-slurper appointed by Trump in September 2019 who refused six times to send reinforcements to the Capitol on January 6 according to the ex-Capitol Police chief, the DC mayor, and the governor of Maryland. I am not reassured.

    nk (1d9030)

  50. I agree, nk. But it’s a lot easier to screw things up from the top by refusing to help. It would be very hard to get thousands of soldiers to go along with something like stealing an election.

    I wouldn’t mind if Biden simply had his inauguration at Mars a Lago (the last place anyone would check) and no one ever knew where he was from then on for a few months.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  51. The South Side of Chicago. 😉

    nk (1d9030)

  52. US intelligence agencies have 180 days to share what they know about UFOs, thanks to the Covid-19 relief and spending bill
    ……
    The director of National Intelligence and the secretary of defense have a little less than six months now to provide the congressional intelligence and armed services committees with an unclassified report about “unidentified aerial phenomena.”

    It’s a stipulation that was tucked into the “committee comment” section of the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2021, which was contained in the massive spending bill.

    That report must contain detailed analyses of UFO data and intelligence collected by the Office of Naval Intelligence, the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force and the FBI, according to the Senate intelligence committee’s directive.

    It should also describe in detail “an interagency process for ensuring timely data collection and centralized analysis of all unidentified aerial phenomena reporting for the Federal Government” and designate an official responsible for that process.

    Finally, the report should identify any potential national security threats posed by UFOs and assess whether any of the nation’s adversaries could be behind such activity, the committee said.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  53. Starting this week and running through at least Inauguration Day, armed protests are being planned at all 50 state capitols and at the U.S. Capitol,

    I think a lot of disinformation is being put out by the mob organizers. They’ll have them guarding 150 locations.

    They expected a protest at Twitter headquarters today. There was none.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  54. Bill Belichick Says He Won’t Accept Medal of Freedom From Trump After Capitol Riot
    …….
    “Recently, I was offered the opportunity to receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom, which I was flattered by out of respect for what the honor represents and admiration for prior recipients,” Belichick said in a statement. “Subsequently, the tragic events of last week occurred and the decision has been made not to move forward with the award.”
    ……
    Belichick said he knows he also represents his family and the Patriots and added that one of the most rewarding parts of his professional career has been the team’s social justice efforts over the last year. “Continuing those efforts while remaining true to the people, team and country I love outweigh the benefits of any individual award,” his statement said.
    ……..
    Ouch!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  55. Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:31 pm

    I think a lot of disinformation is being put out by the mob organizers. They’ll have them guarding 150 locations.

    I think it was Sunday in NY, Antifa showed up because they thought MAGA was showing up. They chanted slogans of peace and love and passed out flowers.

    frosty (f27e97)

  56. Every Deleted Parler Post, Many With Users’ Location Data, Has Been Archived
    In the wake of the violent insurrection at the U.S. Capitol by scores of President Trump’s supporters, a lone researcher began an effort to catalogue the posts of social media users across Parler, a platform founded to provide conservative users a safe haven for uninhibited “free speech” — but which ultimately devolved into a hotbed of far-right conspiracy theories, unchecked racism, and death threats aimed at prominent politicians.

    The researcher, who asked to be referred to by her Twitter handle, @donk_enby, began with the goal of archiving every post from January 6, the day of the Capitol riot; what she called a bevy of “very incriminating” evidence…….
    …….
    …….@donk_enby began the work of archiving all of Parler’s posts, ultimately capturing around 99 percent of its content. In a tweet early Sunday, @donk_enby said she was crawling some 1.1 million Parler video URLs. “These are the original, unprocessed, raw files as uploaded to Parler with all associated metadata,” she said. Included in this data tranche, now more than 56 terabytes in size, @donk_enby confirmed that the raw video files include GPS metadata pointing to exact locations of where the videos were taken.
    ……
    Parler investor Dan Bongino, a Fox News commentator and former NYPD police officer, said in a Parler post on Saturday — shared on Twitter by BuzzFeed reporter John Paczkowski — that the company was “not done with Apple and Google” and encouraged users to “Stay tuned to hear what’s coming.” One user replied: “It would be a pity if someone with explosives training were to pay a visit to some AWS Data Centers – the location of which are public knowledge.”
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  57. One member of Congress from New Jersey just announced she tested positive for coronavirus. She apparently blames Republicans who refused to put on a mask in the small safe area they stayed in for several hours on Wednesday. (although actually the Capitol building was cleared of intruders by 3:37 pm) It longer to clear the grounds.

    Of course they maybe weren’t sure, and could have been afraid they’d make their way back in, and maybe the Capitol police didn’t want anybody wandering around. But they only really needed to stay there for 1 1.2 hours.

    Some members of Congress want all members of Congress tested for coronavirus. That’s what New York City was running ads for – a while – and then they stopped and then they started again and maybe now they’ve stopped.

    They were telling everybody to get tested even though there’s not enough tests to do that.

    But maybe yes, test all the members of Congress and their staff.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  58. Compiling the Criminal Charges Following the Capitol Riot
    …….
    Here, we are compiling links to charging documents related to the Jan. 6 riot on Capitol Hill. Our list includes cases in both the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia and the Superior Court of the District of Columbia. This article will be continually updated.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  59. Every Deleted Parler Post, Many With Users’ Location Data, Has Been Archived
    In the wake of the violent insurrection at the U.S. Capitol by scores of President Trump’s supporters, a lone researcher began an effort to catalogue the posts of social media users across Parler, a platform founded to provide conservative users a safe haven for uninhibited “free speech” — but which ultimately devolved into a hotbed of far-right conspiracy theories, unchecked racism, and death threats aimed at prominent politicians.

    It’s almost laughable to think that people used to care about privacy. Or what the government knows about you. People put their whole lives on the internet and don’t care that other people or corporations can know everything.

    Which might be good in this case. But maybe not so good when it’s used against others who aren’t fomenting an insurrection.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  60. But long term, it is not OK that you need an army to get the GOP to hand power over to the democrats.
    Dustin (4237e0) — 1/11/2021 @ 4:40 pm

    The GOP has already certified the election; Trump has already verified Biden will be sworn in. We are talking about right-wing extremists. Unless you believe it is Democrats that have been looting and burning our cities for months.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  61. Good for Belichick! He gets it. Trump is not honoring him. He is using him to elevate himself, and to coopt him into his gutter-gang.

    nk (1d9030)

  62. 37. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/11/2021 @ 3:15 pm

    WHERE is the vaccine; WHERE is the $2000, both of which so many desperate Americans need???

    They’re getting the vaccine ot more – the Trump Adminstration and even New York. Democrats are not complaining that Trump might be disregarding the science and pushing things, because Joe Biden has indicated that he wants to override the FDA and the CDC even more.

    As for the $2,000 m,aybe sooner than April, although you could come up with a better idea.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  63. I think Parler has a very good legal case against Amazon. Whether it had a good business plan putting its business at the mercy of an alopecic penis-pic purveyor is a different question.

    nk (1d9030)

  64. I hear Lin Wood is representing Parler.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  65. frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 4:50 pm

    Hopefully, they’ve checked that all of those 15k agree Biden is the next POTUS. Maybe it’s time for some loyalty oaths.

    They think maybe two of the Capitol policemen were siding with the demonstrators.

    But they all already took a loyalty oath. (to the constitution) Although maybe it wasn’t a solemn moment.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  66. 50. nk (1d9030) — 1/11/2021 @ 4:55 pm

    the Secretary of the Army…refused six times to send reinforcements to the Capitol on January 6 according to the ex-Capitol Police chief, the DC mayor, and the governor of Maryland.

    I think his reason was you ask for a mission – you don’t ask for men. Then you send enough men to fulfill the mission. He wasn’t going to send them into something unknown.

    I’ve got to find and read the different stories.

    This says:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol

    Trump initially resisted sending the District of Columbia National Guard to quell the mob.[62] He posted a video on his Twitter account calling the rioters “great patriots”, telling them to “go home in peace” and repeating his election claims.[63][64]

    But that’s Wikipedia. It seems like maybe that paragraph of the article has been edited by partisan Democrats.

    Here’s more:

    Mayor Muriel Bowser requested on December 31, 2020, that District of Columbia National Guard troops be deployed to support local police during the anticipated demonstrations. In her request, she wrote that the guards would not be armed and that they would be primarily responsible for “crowd management” and traffic direction, allowing police to focus on security concerns. Acting Secretary of Defense Christopher C. Miller approved the request on January 4, 2021. The approval activated 340 troops, with no more than 114 to be deployed at any given time.[114]

    The FBI spoke to over a dozen known extremists and “was able to discourage those individuals from traveling to D.C.,” according to a senior FBI official. The FBI shared information with the Capitol Police in advance of the protest.[115]

    Three days before the riots, the Pentagon twice offered to send in the National Guard, but were told by the United States Capitol Police that it would not be necessary.[116] Robert Contee, the acting Chief of the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia, said after the event that his department had possessed no intelligence indicating the Capitol would be breached.[117] United States Capitol Police chief Steven Sund said his department had developed a plan to respond to “First Amendment activities” but had not planned for the “criminal riotous behavior” they encountered.[117] As a result, Capitol Police staffing levels mirrored that of a normal day and officers did not prepare Riot control equipment. [118] U.S. Secretary of the Army Ryan D. McCarthy said law enforcement agencies’ estimates of the potential size of the crowd, calculated in advance of the event, varied between 2,000 and 80,000.[116] On January 5, the National Park Service estimated that 30,000 people would attend the “Save America Rally”, based on people already in the area.[119] …

    …Around 1:00 p.m. EST, hundreds of Trump supporters clashed with officers and pushed through barriers along the perimeter of the Capitol.[133][134] The crowd swept past barriers and officers, with some members of the mob spraying officers with chemical agents or hitting them with lead pipes.[1][135] Although many rioters simply walked to the walls of the Capitol, some resorted to ropes and makeshift ladders.[136] Representative Zoe Lofgren (D, CA-19), aware that rioters had reached the Capitol steps, was unable to reach Steven Sund by phone; House Sergeant-at-Arms Paul D. Irving told Lofgren the doors to the Capitol were locked and “nobody can get in”.[137]

    Meanwhile Sund, at 1:09 p.m., called Irving and Stenger and asked them for an emergency declaration required to call in the National Guard; they both told Sund they would “run it up the chain”. Irving called back with formal approval an hour later.[26]

    Capitol breach

    A gallows that was built outside the United States Capitol
    Just after 2:00 p.m., windows were broken through, and the mob breached the building and entered the National Statuary Hall.[1][55][138][139] …

    …Sund joined a conference call with D.C. government and Pentagon officials at 2:26 p.m. where he “[made] an urgent, urgent immediate request for National Guard assistance”, telling them he needed “boots on the ground”. However, Lt. Gen. Walter E. Piatt said he could not recommend that Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy approve the request, telling Sund and others “I don’t like the visual of the National Guard standing a police line with the Capitol in the background”.[26]..

    ….Pentagon officials reportedly restricted D.C. guard troops from being deployed except as a measure of last resort, and from receiving ammunition and riot gear; troops were also instructed to engage with protesters only in situations warranting self-defense and could not share equipment with local police or use surveillance equipment without prior approval from Acting Defense Secretary Christopher C. Miller.[213][214] Army Secretary Ryan D. McCarthy and Acting Defense Secretary Miller decided to deploy the entire 1,100-strong force of D.C. National Guard to quell violence.[215][216] About 3:04 p.m., Miller spoke with Pence, Pelosi, McConnell and Schumer, and directed the National Guard and other “additional support” to respond to the riot.[217][215][218] The order to send in the National Guard, which Trump initially resisted, was approved by Vice President Pence.[215][219] This bypassing of the chain of command has not been explained.[220] Around 3:30 p.m., Northam said that he was working with Mayor Bowser and Congress leaders to respond and that he was sending members of the Virginia National Guard and 200 Virginia State Troopers to support D.C. law enforcement, at the mayor’s request.[221] At 3:45 p.m., Stenger told Sund he would ask Mitch McConnell for help expediting the National Guard authorization.[26]

    Bold mine.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  67. The Wikipedia article seems to say that the purpose of the pipe bombs maybe was to divert the attention of top police officials.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  68. They expected a protest at Twitter headquarters today. There was none.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:31 pm

    Laura Loomer lost the keys to her handcuffs.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  69. This was planned, and Trump’s giving a speech was probably part of the plan, but Trump didn’t necessarily know what the true plan was, and the plan that he thought he was carrying out…was idiotic.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  70. 55. More like deflating; honor amongst thieves?

    Hilarious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  71. @62. Yeah he “got it” alright; Super Bowl ring[s] are worth a lot more than a measly MoF.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  72. A week late and $2000 short; McCarthy calls for censure.

    IDIOT.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  73. A medal from Trump is like a kiss from Dracula. Literally. It will not confer honor on you because Trump has no honor to confer; it will suck your honor from you and give it to Trump.

    nk (1d9030)

  74. @74. “We salute the rank. Not the man.” – Dick Winters [Damian Lewis] ‘Band Of Brothers’ HBO, 2001

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  75. Belichick may be the best football coach of our time, but the ugliest Croatian one will ever come across. The guy blessed in both departments is kicking Team Klink’s arse tonight.

    urbanleftbehind (32c9d0)

  76. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:12 pm

    Unless he’s really mean and offensive – some person on the internet, 2016

    frosty (f27e97)

  77. And they don’t come any ranker than Trump, but Belichick is a civilian and a U.S, citizen, not a soldier, and he is the boss of Trump and not Trump the boss of him.

    Look, this medal scam is as old as time. Along with prizes and trophies and orders of knighthood and all the other BS that the bosses use to make exceptional people salute and kneel and bow and scrape and kiss the ring and thank nicely and acknowledge them to be their bosses with the power to give them things.

    nk (1d9030)

  78. Besides, Trump’s worth aside, after giving the same medal to Jim Jordan, what would the medal really say about Belichick?

    nk (1d9030)

  79. The GOP has already certified the election; Trump has already verified Biden will be sworn in. We are talking about right-wing extremists. Unless you believe it is Democrats that have been looting and burning our cities for months.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:55 pm

    I appreciate your distinction. I do of course think Antifa types were voting for Team D. A few of the real nutty ones think no one should vote, for kooky ‘don’t legitimize this thing’ but they are liberals of course.

    It is a shame Republicans have shed so many good people, and coddled so many bad ones, and misled so many dumb ones, that the party did indeed try to steal an election, including with violence, and we need an army to transition power from the GOP to the democrats. If you’re a Republican (who clearly does not support that) I don’t know why you’re still a Republican. ‘Not Democrats’ ain’t cutting it in my opinion.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  80. @Sammy If they had actually thought having national guard stand in police lines was a bad look, they wouldn’t have offered it the night before. The states were waiting on the Sec Def, not the secretary of the Army to send in their national guards. Approval was supposed to come through the President and the Sec Def. That it was the VP and the Secretary of the Army who gave it was… unusual (the Gov of Maryland talked about it in his interview). If Trump hadn’t actually been in on whatever was going on, he would’ve approved the Nat Guard being sent in immediately, instead of holding if off for hours.

    Nic (896fdf)

  81. Bill Belichick Says He Won’t Accept Medal of Freedom From Trump After Capitol Riot

    I have $10 here that says he gets the medal from Biden. Any takers?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. “It would be a pity if someone with explosives training were to pay a visit to some AWS Data Centers – the location of which are public knowledge.”

    You could blow up an entire server farm and they would lose no data.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  83. So, about those vaccines …

    I was listening to some idiot on the radio talking about how Biden is releasing all the 2nd dose holdout from storage, and they were saying “that’s just not right! If they don’t get the second dose they only have 85% immunity!” Some people don’t do math well.

    Two cases:
    N people get two doses and 95% immunity, N people get NO doses, and 0% immunity.
    Or
    both groups get one dose and 85% immunity.

    Which works best for reducing deaths? Hands?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  84. Belichick may be the best football coach of our all time

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  85. Trump lied. People died. It’s that simple and that reprehensible.

    The US capitol building was stormed and ransacked by deranged armed thugs carrying American flags. Capitol police were beaten with Blue Lives Matter flag poles, for crying out loud. Federal property was destroyed, and the House chamber ransacked. Chemicals, mace and pepper spray, were used against federal officials. Explosives were found before they could de detonated. Death threats were made to the Vice-President, the Speaker of the House, and other Representatives and Senators, as well as the incoming President and Vice-President. All to disrupt the lawful certification of an electoral vote count. Because Trump lost by 7 million popular votes and over a hundred electoral votes.

    Who are these people? They’re certainly not Americans. They’re deranged insurrectionists, and they want a second Civil War. But for no sensible reason. To defend Trump?

    Reports that the FBI issued warnings about similar armed insurrections at capitols in all 50 states and the District of Columbia are deeply disturbing.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/11/fbi-warns-nationwide-armed-protests-next-week-457652

    This country is tearing itself apart. And for what, a failed businessman deeply in debt? Who has committed multiple crimes, bank, tax and wire fraud; adultery and prostitution; illegal campaign contributions; coercion of electoral fraud?

    How are all of these law enforcement agencies supposed to coordinate to prevent an armed insurrection, in a week? It’s not possible.

    This is the most egregious assault on American democracy in history, and it’s all because of a malignant narcissist. But he wasn’t alone. Everyone who participated in this gross miscarriage of justice should be prosecuted and convicted, or removed from office.

    This in the middle of a pandemic that is killing 3,000 Americans a day.

    We need to get our priorities straight.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  86. This country is tearing itself apart. And for what, a failed businessman deeply in debt?

    A day or two ago I saw a comment by some Trump booster who finally decided it was time to withdraw support. (A bit late, I’d say.) But the person said that Trump had filled the necessary function of taking a wrecking ball to the establishment, and now it’s time to move on.

    “Break things now and we’ll figure out how to rebuild later” is what conservatives used to consider a reckless and destructive approach to reform.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  87. 14th amendment section 3. Ted cruz. josh hawley and 142 republics in the house should read it.

    asset (aee4c3)

  88. You don’t have to scratch far below the surface to find the whiny little snowflake underneath. The thread is pretty funny, too.

    Paul Montagu (fcd812)

  89. @85. It’s called the Lombardi Trophy for a reason, lurker.

    Chuck Noll. =mikedrop=

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  90. @76. Hate to deflate your perception, but all signals point to ‘NO.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  91. They call a beer hall a Molson Café in Canada, don’t they, Ted.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  92. This has got to be one of the funniest things to emerge from the sodden ruins of the Trump Presidency: he’s so upset that he might not be able to pardon himself (it makes him more vulnerable to civil suits) that he’s refusing to pardon anyone else:

    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/01/12/cold-grey-pre-dawn-open-thread-what-you-mean-actions-have-consequences/

    Victor (4959fb)

  93. This has got to be one of the funniest things to emerge from the sodden ruins of the Trump Presidency: he’s so upset that he might not be able to pardon himself (it makes him more vulnerable to civil suits) that he’s refusing to pardon anyone else:

    I wonder if the Capitol insurrectionists who find themselves facing federal charges will be surprised to find Trump doesn’t pardon them. Maybe, as they find themselves inside a cell, will they release they’ve been played.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  94. 84. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:31 pm

    I was listening to some idiot on the radio talking about how Biden is releasing all the 2nd dose holdout from storage, and they were saying “that’s just not right! If they don’t get the second dose they only have 85% immunity!” Some people don’t do math well.

    Two cases:
    N people get two doses and 95% immunity, N people get NO doses, and 0% immunity.
    Or
    both groups get one dose and 85% immunity.

    Which works best for reducing deaths? Hands?

    That person on the radio is just following what the chief regulators say but he made the mistake of assuming, unlike Trump’s people and now we see also that Biden is dissenting, that what the government did made sense. He also assumed that whatt other experts said made sense, but that was assuming facts that were not in evidence, in particular the 85% effectiveness rate for a single dose.

    As far as the FDA is concerned, nothing is true and everything is worthless and possibly dangerous until they say otherwise. And they don’t say that anything works until it has been proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt complete with exclusionary rules of evidence. You’re not allowed to use logic or surmise, and you’re not allowed to use preliminary research, even in a pandemic (The FDA did make a few concessions, but they still adhered to all the steps, even if they overlapped.)

    Now in the real world, there is no reason to stick to the 3 or 4 week window. The vaccine booster shot will only become more effective if you wait longer, at least up until about the three month period, after which the effectiveness rate maybe declines slowly. People under 55 (to be conservative) don’t need a booster shot at all. The idea of a booster shot was picked to raise the odds the vaccine would be deemed sufficiently effective and the 3 or 4 week period was picked to minimize the time needed for approval, not because this was the best idea. And the degree it needed to be kept frozen was probably also more than needed.

    So anyway, by the government regulators, if someone doesn’t get two doses, and doesn’t get them separated by the precise interval of time that was submitted and approved, it’s just the same as if they got nothing. The 85% rate comes from independent analysis and maybe (at least the general idea) British regulators.

    https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-statement-following-authorized-dosing-schedules-covid-19-vaccines

    We have been following the discussions and news reports about reducing the number of doses, extending the length of time between doses, changing the dose (half-dose), or mixing and matching vaccines in order to immunize more people against COVID-19. These are all reasonable questions to consider and evaluate in clinical trials. However, at this time, suggesting changes to the FDA-authorized dosing or schedules of these vaccines is premature and not rooted solidly in the available evidence. Without appropriate data supporting such changes in vaccine administration, we run a significant risk of placing public health at risk, undermining the historic vaccination efforts to protect the population from COVID-19.

    Bur the election is over, and Democrats are no longer interested in slavishly following the FDA and criticizing President Donald J. Trump for not wanting to do so.

    Now I suppose the question in your mind is: How could such an idiot be so right?

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  95. Here’s another platform Trump has been banned from. It’s a true pile-on now.

    Paul Montagu (fcd812)

  96. Horrific pictures.

    If not for the waving of the American flag it could have been another BLM/Vanilla isis riot.

    BillPasadena (5b0401)

  97. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:31 pm

    Which works best for reducing deaths? Hands?

    Slow your roll there bucko. Biden promised to follow the science. He didn’t say anything about math.

    What is the Great Chief Scientist saying on this?

    frosty (f27e97)

  98. Here’s another platform Trump has been banned from. It’s a true pile-on now.

    Paul Montagu (fcd812) — 1/12/2021 @ 6:39 am

    Any word on if his OnlyFans is still up?

    Time123 (306531)

  99. I was listening to some idiot on the radio talking about how Biden is releasing all the 2nd dose holdout from storage, and they were saying “that’s just not right! If they don’t get the second dose they only have 85% immunity!” Some people don’t do math well.
    Two cases:
    N people get two doses and 95% immunity, N people get NO doses, and 0% immunity.
    Or
    both groups get one dose and 85% immunity.

    Which works best for reducing deaths? Hands?

    Biden isn’t in charge of anything yet. How is he making this decision?

    Time123 (b87ded)

  100. Hoi, that’s the thing…I always thought Q was an adverse agent, but more in a “let’s get close to the podium at his rallies so we can…” way rather than as false flag rioters gone amuck. An adept handler can isolate and identify QAnon as the true culprit and leave them out to dry. In a sense QAnon may be nothing more than the mommy branch of the Boogaloo.

    urbanleftbehind (34310a)

  101. The “respectable” Trumper position right now seems to be: “We’re right to say that Trump has gone too far now. You guys were wrong to keep warning that he would do something like this before.”

    Radegunda (20775b)

  102. House Democrats Briefed On 3 Terrifying Plots To Overthrow Government
    ……
    On a private call Monday night, new leaders of the Capitol Police told House Democrats they were closely monitoring three separate plans that could pose serious threats to members of Congress as Washington prepares for Democrat Joe Biden’s presidential inauguration on Jan. 20.

    The first is a demonstration billed as the “largest armed protest ever to take place on American soil.”

    Another is a protest in honor of Ashli Babbitt, the woman killed while trying to climb into the Speaker’s Lobby during Wednesday’s pro-Trump siege of the Capitol.

    And another demonstration, which three members said was by far the most concerning plot, would involve insurrectionists forming a perimeter around the Capitol, the White House and the Supreme Court, and then blocking Democrats from entering the Capitol ― perhaps even killing them ― so that Republicans could take control of the government.
    ……
    Democrats were told that the Capitol Police and the National Guard were preparing for potentially tens of thousands of armed protesters coming to Washington and were establishing rules of engagement for warfare. In general, the military and police don’t plan to shoot anyone until one of the rioters fires, but there could be exceptions.

    Lawmakers were told that the plot to encircle the Capitol also included plans to surround the White House ― so that no one could harm Trump ― and the Supreme Court, simply to shut down the courts. The plan to surround the Capitol includes assassinating Democrats as well as Republicans who didn’t support Trump’s effort to overturn the election ― and allowing other Republicans to enter the building and control government.

    All of these plots may never materialize. The Capitol Police have established a new perimeter with fencing and razor wire, and the National Guard has already been called in to help protect the Capitol and lawmakers.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  103. Time123 (b87ded) — 1/12/2021 @ 8:10 am

    Biden isn’t in charge of anything yet. How is he making this decision?

    Kevin M was imprecise in his word choice and tense.

    Biden is saying that when he’s in charge he’s going to do it that way. There’s no doubt that’s he’s about to be in charge is there? It’s not like the election results are still being debated.

    Given the timeframe that means that people getting the 1st shot now, or in the near term, may not get the 2nd. That may or may not be an issue but “he’s not in charge” isn’t a shield. Technically it may be since Biden will return to his basement and really won’t ever be in charge but that’s a distinction without a difference.

    frosty (f27e97)

  104. Several Capitol police officers suspended, more than a dozen under investigation over actions related to rally, riot
    Several U.S. Capitol Police officers have been suspended and more than a dozen others are under investigation for suspected involvement with or inappropriate support for the demonstration last week that turned into a deadly riot at the Capitol, according to members of Congress, police officials and staff members briefed on the developments.

    Eight separate investigations have been launched into the actions of Capitol officers, according to one congressional aide who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the status of the internal review.

    In one of the cases, officers had posted what Capitol Police investigators found to be messages showing support for the rally on Wednesday that preceded the attack on the complex, including touting President Trump’s baseless contention that the election had been stolen through voter fraud, the aide said.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  105. “No one could have seen this coming,” say people who for 4-5 years have been scolding the people who did see a strong possibility that it would, such as the “irrelevant” Mona Charen. Just one clue from 2016:

    Speaking of Clinton, he warned that if elected, she could curtail gun rights. “If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks.” The crowd booed. He then added: “Although the Second Amendment people—maybe there is, I don’t know.”

    Radegunda (20775b)

  106. The “respectable” Trumper position right now seems to be: “We’re right to say that Trump has gone too far now. You guys were wrong to keep warning that he would do something like this before.”

    Additionally, the attack on the Capitol was a one off event and there’s no real threat of more violence. But we can’t impeach Trump because you’re probably going to incite more violence.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  107. And another demonstration, which three members said was by far the most concerning plot, would involve insurrectionists forming a perimeter around the Capitol, the White House and the Supreme Court, and then blocking Democrats from entering the Capitol ― perhaps even killing them ― so that Republicans could take control of the government.

    This sounds like a diversion. The Supreme Court is next to the Capitol, but you expand this deal enough and you’ll start to really run out of people. The buildings have nothing to do with anything and the US government can function without being on site (and indeed that is the best way to proceed, just having the whole inauguration over the internet, perhaps also coming up with a way to legislate over the internet).

    It’s not like Biden takes the blame if his inauguration is moved. He can just say he’s seen enough dead cops. A lot of Americans missed prom or graduations, weddings, even funerals, so it’s not inappropriate for the president to miss a ceremony.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  108. In one of the cases, officers had posted what Capitol Police investigators found to be messages showing support for the rally on Wednesday that preceded the attack on the complex, including touting President Trump’s baseless contention that the election had been stolen through voter fraud, the aide said.

    I hope that officers who actually aided the rioters or were otherwise derelict in their duties (which doesn’t encompass not engaging the mob in scenarios where they were likely to be overrun) are held accountable.

    Simultaneously, I’m uncomfortable with the idea that anyone who “support[ed]” the rally meets that criteria. That’s pretty broad and I don’t think “supporting” the rally precludes someone from doing their job. A Secret Service agent who voted for Hillary Clinton could still serve on Trump’s detail.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  109. You know … you know … you guys don’t know nothing. My frontline worker got her first shot but she wasn’t going to get it unless it was made as certain as it could possibly be made that she would get the second shot three weeks later. That included, besides her commitment, that a second shot was there with her name on it and that the facility had the super-freezer to store it for three weeks. The Fake News Media can report all they want what they thought Biden said, but the reality will be on the ground and dealt with by professionals (hopefully) with professionalism.

    nk (1d9030)

  110. The “respectable” Trumper position

    Hah – good one!

    Dave (1bb933)

  111. Time123 (b87ded) — 1/12/2021 @ 8:10 am

    Biden isn’t in charge of anything yet. How is he making this decision?

    Kevin M was imprecise in his word choice and tense.

    Biden is saying that when he’s in charge he’s going to do it that way. There’s no doubt that’s he’s about to be in charge is there? It’s not like the election results are still being debated.

    Given the timeframe that means that people getting the 1st shot now, or in the near term, may not get the 2nd. That may or may not be an issue but “he’s not in charge” isn’t a shield. Technically it may be since Biden will return to his basement and really won’t ever be in charge but that’s a distinction without a difference.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/12/2021 @ 8:50 am

    Thank you for the explainer. I’m fine with criticizing Biden’s plan for when he is in charge. I haven’t thought through the optimal answer, but it sure seems like we’re doing a poor job with the roll out.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  112. Who’s “we”, Kemosabe? As of Sunday, Chicago had “rolled out” 95% of its federal allocation and the Mayor was asking for more.

    nk (1d9030)

  113. Last year:

    Rep. Steve King tweeted an image of red states fighting blue states with the caption, “Folks keep talking about another Civil War. . . One side has about 8 trillion bullets, while the other side doesn’t know which bathroom to use.

    LINK

    For years I’ve been noting the obvious fact that rioting in this country has come almost exclusively from the left. Dems hyperventilated about the Tea Party, which never broke any windows and left no trash behind at their events. It was easy to downplay talk of violent forces brewing on the right. But there were always those saying things like “We’ve got the guns and we know how to use them.” I knew someone who would sometimes say “We need a revolution!”

    Now the “revolution” theme is being pushed from the highest levels of the GOP, because they couldn’t persuade voters to keep a sociopath in the White House.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  114. Several Capitol police officers suspended, more than a dozen under investigation over actions related to rally, riot
    Several U.S. Capitol Police officers have been suspended and more than a dozen others are under investigation for suspected involvement with or inappropriate support for the demonstration last week that turned into a deadly riot at the Capitol, according to members of Congress, police officials and staff members briefed on the developments.

    Eight separate investigations have been launched into the actions of Capitol officers, according to one congressional aide who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the status of the internal review.

    In one of the cases, officers had posted what Capitol Police investigators found to be messages showing support for the rally on Wednesday that preceded the attack on the complex, including touting President Trump’s baseless contention that the election had been stolen through voter fraud, the aide said.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/12/2021 @ 8:50 am

    I don’t have a Wapo subscription, but i hope that the officers that were suspended were clearly guilty of some bad conduct, or had made statements that made it impossible to carry out their duties. Just being terrorist supporting conspiracy theorists isn’t grounds to lose a government job. I mean that, i don’t think government employees should be fired just for believing crazy horrible things.

    Time123 (306531)

  115. Who’s “we”, Kemosabe? As of Sunday, Chicago had “rolled out” 95% of its federal allocation and the Mayor was asking for more.

    nk (1d9030) — 1/12/2021 @ 9:08 am

    “we” means the us in general.

    Time123 (306531)

  116. @ 112 Dave —
    Unlike the current POTUS, I know when to use scare quotes.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  117. Just being terrorist supporting conspiracy theorists isn’t grounds to lose a government job. I mean that, i don’t think government employees should be fired just for believing crazy horrible things.
    I disagree. If it interferes in your job as a law enforcement officer, you should be fired. If you can’t support and defend the Constitution (as most government oaths require) without imposing your own views, get another job.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  118. Staten Island politician apologizes for shouting ‘Heil Hitler’ at heated lockdown protest

    A Staten Island political consultant running for borough president on Monday offered an apology — and defense — for a garbled blast at COVID-19 lockdowns and her use of “Heil Hitler” in her demand on the Sheriff’s Department to push back on the public health restrictions.

    Staten Island Republican Leticia Remauro told the Daily News on Monday that “I apologize profusely that the words I used in trying to create an analogy were offensive.”

    In a short video clip taken at a massive Dec. 2 protest on Staten Island over the shuttering of Mac’s Public House, Remauro, wearing an American flag mask, rails at the closure of the popular pub. Remauro, who has served as campaign manager for Staten Island Republican Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis, posted a longer version on her Facebook page, but then took it down.
    …….
    “We’re with the small business community, with Staten Island to stand up for our right — the right to pay taxes so that we can pay the salaries of these good men and women,” Remauro says in the video as sheriff’s deputies can be seen in the background blocking entry to the bar.

    “They are just doing their job. But, not for nothing, sometimes you got to say, `Heil Hitler! — not a good idea to send me here!’”

    Remauro told The News she “actually meant to say ‘mein Führer, it’s not a good idea to send me here,’” a dig at the state leaders as “fascist.”
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  119. Who’s “we”, Kemosabe? As of Sunday, Chicago had “rolled out” 95% of its federal allocation and the Mayor was asking for more.

    Chicago’s machine has that many members?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  120. Florida Manatee Mutilated By Someone Who Etched ‘Trump’ Onto Its Back

    Federal wildlife authorities in Florida are looking for the person or persons who mutilated a manatee by carving the word “Trump” onto its back.
    ……
    Manatees are protected by the Endangered Species Act and it is a federal criminal offense to harass the gentle sea cows punishable by a $50,000 fine and up to one year in prison.
    ……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  121. The Alt-Right Is Now the Entire Right.

    The “intellectual” Trumpers told us they were throwing out what was decrepit in the GOP and “Conservatism Inc.,” and building a vibrant new party of The People.
    What they did was redefine conservatism as a cult of personality and then turn the GOP into a comfortable home for the alt-right.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  122. It’s STILL all about THEM. not US. Where is the Covid vaccine and Covid emergency $2000 to help suffering Americans through?

    Another day lost.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  123. frosty (f27e97) — 1/12/2021 @ 7:32 am

    What is the Great Chief Scientist saying on this?

    https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/health/2020/12/31/fauci–us-considering-plan-to-stop-withholding-covid-vaccine-for-2nd-doses

    Orn the other hand:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/02/dr-anthony-fauci-says-us-will-not-delay-second-doses-of-covid-vaccine

    Pr maybe let’s both depart and not depart from the guidelines:

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2021/01/experts-debate-half-doses-and-delayed-boosters-for-covid-vaccines/

    Last week, Operation Warp Speed Chief Advisor Moncef Slaoui raised the possibility of halving the doses of the vaccine created by biotechnology company Moderna.

    In response, the National Institutes of Health announced it would work with Moderna to examine the efficacy of administering lower doses of the vaccine, which showed 95-percent efficacy in trials of its full dosage. In theory, this tactic would double the amount of the vaccine available in the country while still allowing people who get vaccinated to receive two shots.

    Tinkering with the dosage rather than developing more effective ways to use existing stock is “the right answer to the wrong question,” says Anthony Fauci, the longtime director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. “The disconnect is not that we want to stretch out the doses, but we want to be more efficient in getting the vaccine into people. If the time comes that we don’t have enough vaccine, then you should seriously consider the half-dose approach.”

    For now, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has rejected the idea of halving the doses. In a statement released last week, the agency said that while changing the dosage is worth future clinical exploration, “at this time, suggesting changes to the FDA-authorized dosing or schedules of these vaccines is premature and not rooted solidly in the available evidence.”

    Last night someone on the radio (in connection with a discussion, based on a recent New York magazine article that said not only could the virus have escaped from a laboratory in Wuhan but it might have been created there because there was somebody in the United States who’s been trying for years, off and on, to create more infectious versions of the coronavirus for purposes of research, and he’s worked with someone in Wuhan, China, and at some point Dr. Fauci was funding this Frankenstein’s monster type of research – the article seemed to be saying that COVID19 had some material from the spike protein of MERS that made it more infectious added to a naturally occurring virus encountered in a cave in Yunnan in 2012)

    Anyway he said Fauci had worked for Trump and he was now going to work for Biden and he had worked for Obama.

    That isn’t the half of it! He goes back to the Reagan Administration! He’s been director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since then. And he’s worked at the agency, in some capacity since the Johnson Administration. (Lyndon not Andrew)

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  124. I mean that, i don’t think government employees should be fired just for believing crazy horrible things.

    Half the Congressional staff would be out of a job. Their bosses too, if you could fire them.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  125. Today is Rush Limbaugh’s 70th birthday. He mentioned that yesterday but isn’t on the radio today. He +s absent considerably more than he is there. His substitute hosts are invariably of lower quality than he is (even Mark Steyn) and they endorse the idea that the election was stolen from Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  126. And he’s worked at the agency, in some capacity since the Johnson Administration.

    He has never worked anywhere else.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  127. My plan:

    Given everyone one shot. In theory this will be sufficient to provide herd immunity and will stop the spread faster, as the number of resistant people increases at twice the rate.

    Then, much later: give everyone two shots of the vaccine they did NOT get the first time, on the official dosing schedule.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  128. As for scientific data, they have plenty of data on the rate of infection of test subjects after the first shot and before the second. If it’s poor, they should come out and say so. But they don’t.

    Under my plan, they sell more doses, so they should happily tell us if it’s a good plan.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  129. Radegunda @123 The Alt-Right Is Now the Entire Right.

    I agree with your link, and I see it as the The Secret Of Trump’s Failure. Like a child making mud pies, he did not have the ingredients for either a coup or a revolution:
    From the population, he did not have the normal and ordinary Americans, he had the disaffected and perpetually unemployable.
    From the business establishment, he did not have the Fortune 500, he had casino owners, day-traders, and small hedge-fund managers.
    From the religious establishment, he did not have the mainstream churches, he had the jackleg Bible thumpers and holy rollers.
    From the police establishment, he did not have the professionals, he had the Barney Fifes and Macon County Jail deputies.
    From the military, he did not have the command staff, he had the dead-enders and Section 8s.
    And from himself, he did not have the makings of a committed revolutionary leader, only a spoiled Fifth Avenue brat.

    nk (1d9030)

  130. Here’s another lie that Trumper like to recite: “Republicans were losing left right and center before MAGA.”
    Which is completely false in terms of electoral history, and it’s idiotic in terms of policy and legislation too. Trump was unable or unwilling to do much of anything legislatively even when he had both houses on his side.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  131. If the virus was created in a lab, it wouldn’t be in the more secure lab in Wuhan but in the other one, 300 yards or so away from the seafood market, and the research would have been done in secret. So I think the article leans toward some wrong ideas.

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html

    {Dr. Ralph] Baric and Shi Zhengli of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, the two top experts on the genetic interplay between bat and human coronaviruses, began collaborating in 2015…

    …Perhaps viral nature hit a bull’s-eye of airborne infectivity, with almost no mutational drift, no period of accommodation and adjustment, or perhaps some lab worker somewhere, inspired by Baric’s work with human airway tissue, took a spike protein that was specially groomed to colonize and thrive deep in the ciliated, mucosal tunnels of our inner core and cloned it onto some existing viral bat backbone.

    It could have happened in Wuhan, but — because anyone can now “print out” a fully infectious clone of any sequenced disease — it could also have happened at Fort Detrick, or in Texas, or in Italy, or in Rotterdam, or in Wisconsin, or in some other citadel of coronaviral inquiry. No conspiracy — just scientific ambition, and the urge to take exciting risks and make new things, and the fear of terrorism, and the fear of getting sick. Plus a whole lot of government money.

    In China, the effort to imitate and copy what’s being done in the United States, but do it first, and claim credit would be the motive and this research wold have been done at a secondary lab, so as to keep it secret.

    Fauci actually stopped the funding of a dangerous line of research:

    …Some of the experiments — “gain of function” experiments — aimed to create new, more virulent, or more infectious strains of diseases in an effort to predict and therefore defend against threats that might conceivably arise in nature….” …The virologists who carried out these experiments have accomplished amazing feats of genetic transmutation, no question, and there have been very few publicized accidents over the years. But there have been some…. The intentional creation of new microbes that combine virulence with heightened transmissibility “poses extraordinary risks to the public,” wrote infectious-disease experts Marc Lipsitch and Thomas Inglesby in 2014… In 2012, in Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, Lynn Klotz warned that there was an 80 percent chance, given how many laboratories were then handling virulent viro-varietals, that a leak of a potential pandemic pathogen would occur sometime in the next 12 years…Proposing that something unfortunate happened during a scientific experiment in Wuhan — where COVID-19 was first diagnosed and where there are three high-security virology labs, one of which held in its freezers the most comprehensive inventory of sampled bat viruses in the world — isn’t a conspiracy theory. It’s just a theory. It merits attention, I believe, alongside other reasoned attempts to explain the source of our current catastrophe.

    Actually it is a conspiracy theory, because it involves a cover-up. But it’s a reasonable conspiracy theory. I mean we’re dealing with the PRC and there sure are signs of a coverup more than is par for the course in China. What’s not reasonable is the idea it was deliberately let loose in the world.

    … Then Lipsitch’s activists (calling themselves the Cambridge Working Group) sent around a strong statement on the perils of research with “Potential Pandemic Pathogens,” signed by more than a hundred scientists. The work might “trigger outbreaks that would be difficult or impossible to control,” the signers said. Fauci reconsidered, and the White House in 2014 announced that there would be a “pause” in the funding of new influenza, SARS, and MERS gain-of-function research.

    Baric, in North Carolina, was not happy. He had a number of gain-of-function experiments with pathogenic viruses in progress. “It took me ten seconds to realize that most of them were going to be affected,” he told NPR. Baric and a former colleague from Vanderbilt University wrote a long letter to an NIH review board expressing their “profound concerns.” “This decision will significantly inhibit our capacity to respond quickly and effectively to future outbreaks of SARS-like or MERS-like coronaviruses, which continue to circulate in bat populations and camels,” they wrote. The funding ban was itself dangerous, they argued. “Emerging coronaviruses in nature do not observe a mandated pause.”

    SARS-CoV-2 could have been created on the theory that it might happen sooner or later in nature, something this Dr Baric was claiming, and teaching some person in China, so let’s do it first, and we’ll be able to develop a vaccine or treatments for it faster when it happens.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  132. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/12/2021 @ 10:27 am

    As for scientific data, they have plenty of data on the rate of infection of test subjects after the first shot and before the second. If it’s poor, they should come out and say so. But they don’t.

    They know that, but they don’t know how much, or if you can do away with the second dose altogether.

    Under my plan, they sell more doses, so they should happily tell us if it’s a good plan.

    No, no, no, no, noo. They wouldn;t do that. The FDA does not like drug compaies promoting off label uses (except indirectly, by paying doctors to give soeeches)

    It does not like that at all. Not one bit.

    They tell investors (because of the SEC) more than they tell doctors, so if you really want to keep up with new developments with drugs, read the business pages.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  133. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/12/2021 @ 10:25 am

    In theory this will be sufficient to provide herd immunity

    If this is true why are the companies recommending two shots? I’m not saying this isn’t correct. Assuming it is correct why wasn’t this a 1 shot plan from the start with a 2 shot option?

    frosty (f27e97)

  134. Another frequent lie from Trumpers is that critics of Trump, and of Trump apologists, are motivated by “sneering disdain for everyday Americans,” as Elise Stefanik put it.
    I’m pretty sure that my bio puts me closer to “ordinary Americans” than Stefanik and a lot of other prominent Trump boosters, as well as Trump himself. I don’t sneer at anyone for doing a humble job (and I’ve done some humble ones myself), or at anyone born into one or another kind of disadvantage. Donald Trump actually does look down on everyday Americans, even while he courts their worship.

    I don’t look down on Trump lovers for their station in life. (And in many cases I can’t, frankly.) Rather, I question their moral judgment. But most of all I criticize the people who kept painting Trump as a great patriotic hero when they had the intellectual resources to know better.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  135. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/12/2021 @ 9:17 am

    Just being terrorist supporting conspiracy theorists isn’t grounds to lose a government job. I mean that, i don’t think government employees should be fired just for believing crazy horrible things.

    I disagree. If it interferes in your job as a law enforcement officer, you should be fired. If you can’t support and defend the Constitution (as most government oaths require) without imposing your own views, get another job.

    This is an old conversation. I’m guessing you aren’t alone on this one. Any chance we can get a list of beliefs that you already know meet your criteria?

    frosty (f27e97)

  136. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/12/2021 @ 10:25 am

    Then, much later: give everyone two shots of the vaccine they did NOT get the first time, on the official dosing schedule.

    The probblem with that approach is, that while there’s every reason to believe that, in the end, immunity will be just as good or better, waiting more than the specified period of time is off label.

    One problem now is that the twp leading vaccines expose the body only to the spike protein and there’s been a so far rare) mutation that evades it – and it’s not easy to find out details.

    By the way, many, many, people, particularly under 65 or 55, will not need the second shot.

    Pfizer and Moderna just threw that in to raise the effectiveness and increase the probability of the vaccine being approved. And they made the delay 3 or 4 weeks, rather than 3 or 4 months (which general vaccine research indicates is better) in order to get it approved sooner. And they timed things so authorization would happen after November 3, so as not to have Democrats argue against the vaccine.

    White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows tried to cause the FDA to make it possible for approval to happen in October, but he had to give in because he and Trump did not have the backing of the companies, which wanted the endorsement of vaccinations to be bipartisan and not an election issue.

    This is the Ronald-Reagan-delayed-the-release-of-the-hostages-from-Iran theory for real.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  137. I disagree. If it interferes in your job as a law enforcement officer, you should be fired. If you can’t support and defend the Constitution (as most government oaths require) without imposing your own views, get another job.

    This is an old conversation. I’m guessing you aren’t alone on this one. Any chance we can get a list of beliefs that you already know meet your criteria?

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:15 am

    the answer is “belief that interferes in your job as a law enforcement officer”.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  138. frosty (f27e97) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:06 am

    If this is true why are the companies recommending two shots? I’m not saying this isn’t correct. Assuming it is correct why wasn’t this a 1 shot plan from the start with a 2 shot option?

    I just explained that.

    They are not recommending one shot because they don;t want to risk being accused of promoting something off label and have the FDA take revenge on them. The proper way for them to do t is to quietly ask thee Food and Drug Administration as to what they could do to get this authorized, and they are told clinical trials. It is discussed more, as I said, with stock investors, because the Securities and Exchange Commission wants companies to discuss things that might affect their business.

    And they went for the 2-shot optiont o raise the effectiveness and thus increase the probability of the vaccine being approved. And they made the delay 3 or 4 weeks, rather than 3 or 4 months so as to get the approval process over sooner. And they made sure it would not get approved before November 3 so as not to have the approval criticized and derided by the Democrats, but they kept telling Trump it might be so he would continue to accelerate its development.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  139. Time123 (b87ded) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:27 am

    If you’re saying this is in the past tense, you fire someone after the interference, then you aren’t really firing them for their beliefs. At that point, you’ve got evidence that they didn’t do their job.

    If you’re going to fire someone because their beliefs could lead to some future interference you should be able to at least articulate the beliefs. How else are you going to know who to fire?

    frosty (f27e97)

  140. One problem now is that the twp leading vaccines expose the body only to the spike protein and there’s been a (so far rare) mutation that evades it

    That does not express the same protein? I find that hard to believe. That’s a huge mutation.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  141. 9.Would you defend the capitol with just a light nightstick?

    Ask Nathan Hale, Audie Murphy… or Crockett, Travis and Bowie.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  142. And they timed things so authorization would happen after November 3, so as not to have Democrats argue against the vaccine Trump re-elected.

    FIFY

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  143. Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:35 am

    I just explained that.

    That seems to be a good explanation of the political reasoning.

    It sounded like Kevin M was talking about the scientific/medical reasoning of 1 vs 2 shots. If 1 shot can be effective in reaching herd immunity, and that is presumably the goal, why isn’t that the recommended dosage? It sounds like the answer is herd immunity isn’t the primary goal, but rather, individual effectiveness is. But I could be missing his point, thus the question.

    frosty (f27e97)

  144. Crockett, Travis and Bowie

    I believe at least some of those had knives.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  145. It sounds like the answer is herd immunity isn’t the primary goal, but rather, individual effectiveness is.

    I believe that Sammy is pointing out that the higher the effectiveness number the better the chances of approval, so the second shot was added to game the system. They have all the data they need on what happens after one shot — how many participants of each group (placebo and real) got Covid after one and before two.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  146. Time123 (b87ded) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:27 am

    If you’re saying this is in the past tense, you fire someone after the interference, then you aren’t really firing them for their beliefs. At that point, you’ve got evidence that they didn’t do their job.

    If you’re going to fire someone because their beliefs could lead to some future interference you should be able to at least articulate the beliefs. How else are you going to know who to fire?

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:38 am

    No, we need to articulate the rule, not provide an exhaustive list of beliefs.

    But if you want examples where the belief, and public knowledge of it, could be disqualifying for employment:

    If you believe trump is a threat and should be killed you shouldn’t be on his security detail.
    If you believe that group are trying to take over the country and that it’s OK to lie to keep them in their place you shouldn’t be a police officer.
    If you believe that group always lie you probably shouldn’t be a police officer.
    If you believe group shouldn’t live in other group neighborhoods and burning their houses is OK probably shouldn’t be a fireman.
    If you believe your companies product is junk and no one should buy it you shouldn’t be a spokesperson.
    If you believe a large group of customers are vile scum unworthy of respect you probably can’t have a high profile position in the company.

    Make sense?

    Time123 (b87ded)

  147. The point is not really herd immunity, although that’s part of it as it reduces the spread dramatically. What’s IMPORTANT is reducing illness and death. If 1 shot gives 85% immunity, then 20 million people with 85% immunity saves more lives than 10 million with 95% and 10 million with no immunity at all.

    The only folks that should get both shots as planned are medical personnel with constant risk of exposure and the staff in care facilities and group homes.

    With 1 shot we might be able to immunize the entire (willing) population by April. With 2 it might be the end of summer.

    We can go back later with a full 2 dose regime for those particularly at risk.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  148. And they timed things so authorization would happen after November 3, so as not to have […] Trump re-elected.

    FIFY

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:46 am

    For sure.

    But Trump could have easily avoided this obvious trap if he took a little interest in his job.

    It’s similar to how all those roads for border wall building equipment have become easy paths for illegal immigration, leaving the US border less secure that it was four years ago. Just think things through, Trump! Turn off the TV and think for a few minutes.

    Same issue right now, the GOP’s most tremendous liability in my life, these goofballs who like to dress like vikings and beat cops to death, believe it or not, that is an opportunity. If Trump told them to organize into election law experts, door canvassers, organizers, to identify elections in two years with unique opportuntities (the way Soros has with DAs), and told them to put their energy towards building a victory in 2022 and 2024, he could dispel the energy.

    Instead of going to court with a whole lot of nothing, he could train millions of his fans to know what to look for and how to proceed when they find it. Though this sounds like a fantasy, if Trump gave a speech every day to this effect to his fans, telling them they must go home and start working towards a real goal, it would work. He would come across as a leader.

    All he would have to do is think about the problems beyond how they affect Trump in the next five minutes.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  149. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:50 am

    So, then 1 shot is fine and the companies just don’t want to say that for FDA reasons? Fair enough, except presumably getting the approval is the test for what’s “fine”.

    But this whole thing doesn’t make me comfortable. The government’s plan looks like it has a little *wink* this is safe *wink* we just can’t say it’s safe *wink* because of our own regulations.

    frosty (f27e97)

  150. @150, the list of opportunities Trump missed is staggering and your point is very valid.

    Time123 (306531)

  151. @146. But no pepper spray! 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  152. 147. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:50 am

    They have all the data they need on what happens after one shot — how many participants of each group (placebo and real) got Covid after one and before two.

    They only have going up the point when they got the second shot. And immunity doesn’t kick in for 5 to 10 days. And it might even be worse for you to be vaccinated thn not vaccinated while you are infected, or just before.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  153. @152 Time123 — It’s easy to miss opportunities to do things one doesn’t care about doing.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  154. 145. frosty (f27e97) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:47 am

    It sounds like the answer is herd immunity isn’t the primary goal, but rather, individual effectiveness is.
    Which would be OK if there wasn’t an ongoing epidemic while this was going on. As is the case usually with vaccination.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  155. 144. Well, yes maybe.

    They could have had the following thought:

    If Trump was re-elected, there’d still be accusations vaccine approval was rushed, while that would all go away if he wasn’t. And it did, in spite of Trump contesting the election results, because the people who would accuse vaccine approval of being politically motivated all believed Joe Biden would be inaugurated president on January 20, 2021.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  156. Biden certainly did expect to be would be inaugurated president, so an attack on the vaccine after November 7 (key date) would be an attack on Biden, unless he joined in.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  157. @154:

    Sammy, trust me, they know how many times a day these people peed or brushed their teeth.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  158. America! What a country! The Razer mask.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  159. 142. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:41 am

    That does not express the same protein? I find that hard to believe. That’s a huge mutation.

    actually that should not affect the vaccines very much because the body would manufacture numerous different antibodies and most would still fit.

    It’s the neutralizing monoclonal antibodies that might be affected. Both the Regeneron and the Eli Lilly antibodies use only two.

    Here is what Dr. Scott Gottlieb said:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-scott-gottlieb-discusses-coronavirus-on-face-the-nation-january-10-2021

    ..We’ve done some initial analysis with the U.K. variant, particularly with respect to the vaccines and the monoclonal antibodies, and the medical products that we have right now do appear to be effective against that UK variant. There’s more concern around a South African variant because that variant has mutated the spike protein, the protein that’s the target for our vaccines and our antibodies in a way that could defeat at least the antibodies and perhaps make the vaccines less effective.

    We’re going to have data on the vaccines in the next couple of weeks. Pfizer, the company I’m on the board of, is working on developing some of that data. So, we’ll have a better answer on that question. But it just goes to show you that these viruses are going to evolve. I mean, this virus has been running through the world, around the world, racing around the world largely unchecked.

    It’s been under some selective pressure with the widespread use, for example, of convalescent plasma. So it’s inevitable that we’re going to see these kinds of mutations in this virus. And this is probably going to be a constant struggle.

    We’re going to have to update our vaccines and our antibody drugs and other therapeutics regularly to keep up with these new variants as they emerge.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  160. 154. 159.

    They can;t say anything about how much immunity only one dose of the vaccine gives beyond the 17 to 28 day period or so till they injected the second dose. The data beyond that point is for two.

    Now a limited number of people took only one dose. And they may have started a trial with only one.

    Sammy Finkelman (dcc9ca)

  161. Maybe trump can pardon Hailie Deegan for using the “R-word.”

    asset (0e837c)

  162. Time123 (b87ded) — 1/12/2021 @ 11:52 am

    Make sense?

    Well, no. You made the original comment I was working from:

    i hope that the officers that were suspended were clearly guilty of some bad conduct, or had made statements that made it impossible to carry out their duties

    Then it shifted a little to:

    conspiracy theorists, beliefs, and views

    which implies a certain open-endedness. Rip Murdock went with a vague can’t support and defend the Constitution that doesn’t limit the scope much. The people this is directed at believe they are capable of doing that.

    So, I started out agreeing with you but now you’re at:

    1. specific intent to kill POTUS (ok, anyone admitting that would be right out)
    2. willingness to lie (let’s come back to this one)
    3. I’m not sure what this is (and this one)
    4. What looks like a reference to the KKK not being firemen (ok, the problem I have with this one is it doesn’t sound like this fireman is going to burn anything down and fireman may be hard to hire, protected by unions, etc.)
    5. A problem for a lot of corporate communication officers (that I don’t think is relevant. someone has to sell tobacco. it won’t sell itself)
    6. Most CEOs (again, is this even the same thing and who else is going to run these social media companies)

    But (2) is a pretty broad rule. It sounds like this covers not calling out Trump or saying it’s OK for someone else to believe that the election was stolen. Your wording here isn’t easy for me to parse. Then (3) covers any case where you think a group always lies. I think I know where you’re going here but this is far too open to justify firing someone. Cops and lawyers think everyone lies (joking).

    So, if you saying, anyone willing to admit that they are planning violence should be dealt with, then yes. Not only should they be fired but that sounds like a crime. Ok, you’ve stated the obvious and I agree.

    Is that what you’re saying though? Because I’m assuming you aren’t saying the obvious. It sounds like you’re saying someone who states belief A and that you’ve decided implies violent action B should be dealt with based only on making the statement A.

    frosty (f27e97)

  163. Frosty, if you’re a civil servant; police, fire, EMT, etc and you’re publicly stated beliefs make it reasonable to assume that you won’t carry out your duties honestly it may be appropriate to fire you. It’s definitely appropriate for your employer to investigate.

    This

    made statement that made it impossible to carry out their duties

    should have been

    made statement that made it reasonable to investigate if it’s impossible for them to carry out their duties.

    Part of this is a reasonable concern that you might let your prejudice govern your decision making.
    Part of this is that there is inherent harm if the community you serve loses faith in you and your agency because of your publicly stated beliefs.

    Both are legitimate.

    For example if a police officer makes a large number of social media posts to the effect of “Never trust a member of this ethnic group. They always lie and are inherently criminal. I don’t believe anything they say. I hate them and I avoid them at all costs.” it would be reasonable to be concerned that they might not take statements from victims of that group, that they might present evidence in a biased way, or that their interaction with that group might be inappropriate. It would be appropriate to ask if the the community they serve will be able to trust them and if they can be an effective police officer in a city with members of that group. This is a decision the agency will have to make on a case by case basis.

    The rest of my examples were along those lines, I included some from the private sector to try and illustrate the idea absent political complications.

    Sorry I didn’t do a better job writing it up.

    Time123 (306531)

  164. @frosty@151 I think it’s more a case of minimum and possibly temporary vs optimum and long term. Frex, if I need to get into a can but I don’t have a can opener, I can use my bottle opener to puncture the can over and over and over again until I’ve punctured it enough to get the top off, or I can go buy a can opener. If it’s 3 AM and some kind of emergency that required an open can, I’d probably choose the former, but if I had the luxury of time, the latter would be best.

    Nic (896fdf)

  165. Time123 (306531) — 1/12/2021 @ 1:14 pm

    Sorry I didn’t do a better job writing it up.

    It’s not so much that as that this seems to have drifted.

    The context of

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/12/2021 @ 8:50 am

    was Capital Police, the riot, and

    messages showing support for the rally on Wednesday that preceded the attack on the complex, including touting President Trump’s baseless contention that the election had been stolen through voter fraud

    I didn’t think you thought that was enough to fire someone and

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/12/2021 @ 9:17 am

    quoted in part

    i don’t think government employees should be fired just for believing

    and commented:

    I disagree.

    Along the way, it’s not really clear that this is still about the capital riot. It’s possible the scope changed.

    Time123 (306531) — 1/12/2021 @ 1:14 pm

    Does seem to expand it beyond the capital riot and moves the needle on firing. I don’t think you and I disagree. I’m still wondering what Rip Murdock thinks warrants firing.

    frosty (f27e97)

  166. Frosty, you’re right, I lost the thread a bit.

    Time123 (ae9d89)

  167. I’m still wondering what Rip Murdock thinks warrants firing.

    It’s nice to see a civil reaction based on something I’ve posted. Sadly, I’ve been tied up in meetings all day. If you are in law enforcement, or a public safety position, and you actively work against the mission of your employer, I have no problem with firing someone. It certainly will get you fired in the private sector. The Capitol Police are charged with protecting the Capitol building and its employees, and if you actively work against that mission, you should be disciplined, up to and including termination. Basically officers who let the insurrectionists in the building were infiltrators, and no better than the invaders.

    Cops around the country have been fired for making racist comments, on-line postings, as well a discriminatory searches and arrests (“driving while black”), and membership in racist cliques (very prevalent in the Los Angeles County Sherriff’s Department, and no better than street gangs).
    A number of police officers (including one chief) are under investigation for their participation in the insurrection. Attempting to overthrow the government should be a grounds for termination.

    There is no right to a particular job if you cannot meet its professional standards.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  168. Comrades, these are federal employees. That wheel was invented by Theodore Roosevelt when Benjamin Harrison was President.

    nk (1d9030)

  169. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/12/2021 @ 5:45 pm

    officers who let the insurrectionists in the building were infiltrators

    Trying to keep it about the riot; maybe they were. That would require intent. The Women’s March against Kavanaugh involved a sit-in I think? Maybe they thought this was what was going on.

    On the other hand, wouldn’t opening the door be grounds enough? If they had been part of a coordinated plan then its criminal. Why are we talking about them just losing their jobs?

    frosty (f27e97)

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