Weekend Open Thread
[guest post by Dana]
Good morning. Feel free to share anything here that you think will be of interest to readers. Please make sure to include links. Here are a few news items from the week to get you started.
First news item
President-elect Biden is planning to take a dramatic step aimed at increasing the amount of vaccine available to states.
His transition team says he’ll change a Trump administration policy that kept millions of doses in reserve, only to be shipped when it was time to administer people’s second doses.
Instead, the Biden administration plans to send most of the currently reserved doses out right away, allowing more people to get first doses. For people who’ve gotten initial shots, the Biden team is making a bet that new doses could be manufactured in time to keep booster shots on schedule.
Second news item
Reports of a highly contagious new coronavirus variant in the United States, published on Friday by multiple news outlets, are based on speculative statements made by Dr. Deborah Birx and are inaccurate, according to several government officials.
The erroneous report originated at a recent meeting where Dr. Birx, a member of the White House coronavirus task force, presented graphs of the escalating cases in the country. She suggested to other members of the task force that a new, more transmissible variant originating in the United States might explain the surge, as another variant did in Britain.
Her hypothesis made it into a weekly report sent to state governors. “This fall/winter surge has been at nearly twice the rate of rise of cases as the spring and summer surges. This acceleration suggests there may be a USA variant that has evolved here, in addition to the UK variant that is already spreading in our communities and may be 50% more transmissible,” the report read. “Aggressive mitigation must be used to match a more aggressive virus.”
Dismayed, officials at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tried to have the speculative statements removed but were unsuccessful, according to three people familiar with the events.
Third news item
A Black woman in California said a group of nearly 40 pro-Trump demonstrators attacked her and called her the n-word following a rally in downtown Los Angeles.
Police said they are investigating the incident as a hate crime after speaking with the woman…
The woman, Berlinda, 25, said she was walking when she saw the large group on Wednesday, according to NBC Los Angeles, which noted that she asked that her last name not be used. Earlier in the day, a protest was held, with many demonstrators carrying “Stop the Steal” signs.
Berlinda said that several people in the group told her to take her face mask off. She told NBC Los Angeles that the crowd started following her after she flipped them off.
“A bunch of women and men started yelling, ‘take off your mask, don’t wear a mask,'” she said, telling the outlet that she asked one man in the group to leave her alone. “And that’s when the guy went and took his hand, clawed me in the face. And then just smacked my phone in my face.”
Berlinda said others shoved her and she was called a racial slur.
The assault was captured by photographer Raquel Natalicchio, 29. She told NBC News in an interview Thursday that she saw Berlinda walking by herself and heard the protesters heckling her and asking if she voted for President Donald Trump. It is unclear whether all those shown in Natalicchio’s photos were involved in the alleged assault.
Berlinda told them no and flipped them off and kept walking, Natalicchio said.
“They kept kind of heckling her for that, and then she told them to put on a mask,” Natalicchio said, noting that many people who attended the rally did not have a face mask on. “As soon as she told them to put a mask on, they swarmed her and circled her and started pushing her around amongst them, and trying to intimidate her.”
…
Natalicchio said one woman snatched Berlinda’s hair extensions out “and began assaulting her.” Berlinda tried to defend herself and several men started hitting her with metal flag poles, according to Natalicchio. The woman was also believed to be pepper-sprayed in the eyes.
One man came forward to help. He was captured in an image grabbing Berlinda from behind to pull her to safety.
Fourth news item
Part of the mob that Trump referred to as “very special”:
An unidentified man wearing a sweatshirt reading “Camp Auschwitz” was among the violent mob that entered the U.S. Capitol Wednesday after a series of rallies that involved antisemitic conspiracy theories.
The man was visible in video stills from inside the Capitol, including a report from ITV, a British television channel. He was wearing what appeared to be a hooded sweatshirt with “Camp Auschwitz” printed above an image of a skull and crossbones, with the phrase “work brings freedom” printed below.
The phrase is a translation of “arbeit macht frei,” a slogan that appeared above the entrance of the Auschwitz concentration camp.
And let’s not forget this “very special” individual proudly marching the Confederate flag through the Capitol building and the group chanting in unison “hang Mike Pence”. Very special people everywhere!
Fifth news item
He was a veteran who later lamented America’s involvement in Iraq. He lived in suburban Virginia but hailed from a small town in New Jersey, the youngest of three brothers. And he was serving in his dream job as a police officer when he met his death this week in the chaos and violence that unfolded in the nation’s capital.
U.S. Capitol Police officer Brian D. Sicknick, 42, died Thursday from injuries he suffered during the pro-Trump riot that breached the U.S. Capitol. He had served overseas in the New Jersey Air National Guard in support of the war in Afghanistan, eventually attaining a lifelong goal of becoming a police officer.
…
Police have not confirmed the circumstances of Sicknick’s death but said he “was injured while physically engaging with protesters” Wednesday. He returned to his division office and collapsed, then was taken to a local hospital where he died around 9:30 p.m. Thursday. According to two law enforcement officials who spoke to the Associated Press, Sicknick was hit in the head with a fire extinguisher.
Sixth news item
Seven out of 10 is better than I thought it would be:
Fifty-seven percent of Americans want Republican President Donald Trump to be immediately removed from office after he encouraged a protest this week that escalated into a deadly riot inside the U.S. Capitol, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll.
Most of them were Democrats, however, with Republicans apparently much more supportive of Trump serving out the final days of his term, which ends on Jan. 20.
The national public opinion survey, conducted Thursday and Friday, also showed that seven out of 10 of those who voted for Trump in November opposed the action of the hardcore supporters who broke into the Capitol while lawmakers were meeting to certify the election victory of Democrat Joe Biden.
Seventh news item
“This unhinged president could not be more dangerous,” Pelosi said of the current situation.
…
The Democrats are considering lightning-quick action. A draft of their Articles of Impeachment accuses Trump of abuse of power, saying he “willfully made statements that encouraged — and foreseeably resulted in — imminent lawless action at the Capitol,” according to a person familiar with the details who was granted anonymity to discuss them.
The articles are expected to be introduced on Monday, with a House vote as soon as Wednesday.
Eighth news item
“Hospitals are declaring internal disasters and having to open church gyms to serve as hospital units,” [Los Angeles] County Supervisor Hilda Solis said. “Our health care workers are physically and mentally exhausted and sick.” Solis called the situation a “human disaster.”
Almost 7,900 people are hospitalized with Covid-19 in just Los Angeles County. And 21% of them are in intensive care units, officials said Tuesday. The number of hospital patients grew by more than 200 from Monday.
On Tuesday, another 224 deaths were announced, bringing the total in the county to more than 11,000.
Now, ambulance crews in LA County have been told not to take patients with little chance of survival to hospitals.“This order that was issued by the county emergency medical services really is very specific to patients who suffered from a cardiac arrest and are unable to be revived in the field,” said Dr. Jeffrey Smith, chief operating officer of Cedars-Sinai Medical Center.
“Those patients have a very low rate of survival each if they are transported to the hospital. So at this time, it is deemed to likely be futile.”
In season or out, more of this, please:
–Dana
Good morning!
Dana (cc9481) — 1/9/2021 @ 8:04 amRight-wing extremists vow to return to Washington for Joe Biden’s inauguration
In the wake of Wednesday’s riot at the Capitol, Trump supporters with extremist views feel emboldened and are vowing to return to Washington for the upcoming inauguration of President-elect Joe Biden on January 20, using online platforms to rally each other.
“Many of Us will return on January 19, 2021, carrying Our weapons, in support of Our nation’s resolve, towhich [sic] the world will never forget!!! We will come in numbers that no standing army or police agency can match,” wrote a popular Parler user who frequently posts about QAnon, and is being tracked by the Anti-Defamation League.
Rip Murdock (b620f4) — 1/9/2021 @ 8:52 am……..
“Round 2 on January 20th. This time no mercy. I don’t even care about keeping Trump in power. I care about war,” an anonymous person posted on the platform TheDonald.win, which is filled with comments posted by people who lauded those who rioted Wednesday as “heroes.”
………
“There is growing concern that violent extremists are emboldened by the breach of the Capitol, which means the clock is ticking on taking down the most influential incites of violence before they act again,” said Frank Figliuzzi, former FBI assistant director and NBC News national security analyst.
……..
The attempted seizure of the Capitol was a continuation of Oklahoma City, Charlottesville, and the Whitmer kidnap plot, along with the lone wolf massacres in El Paso, Pittsburgh, and Poway (CA). This was not an isolated incident, and it will get worse.
Re: Making Trump ineligible to hold public office in the future.
There are discussions of this action on television this morning, generally in the context of it being facilitated by impeachment.
Is this disenfranchisement of an individual citizen possible without a felony conviction?
John B Boddie (d795fd) — 1/9/2021 @ 8:55 amFor some reason my post 2 is in moderation. Please release.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 8:59 amRepublican AGs group sent robocalls urging march to the Capitol
An arm of the Republican Attorneys General Association, a national group representing the top law enforcement officers in their states, sent out robocalls encouraging people to march to the U.S. Capitol the day before the building was stormed by a pro-Trump mob.
“At 1 p.m., we will march to the Capitol building and call on Congress to stop the steal,” said the voice on the recording, which was obtained by NBC News.
.
The calls, which did not advocate violence or suggest the building should be breached, was sent out by the Rule of Law Defense Fund, a fundraising arm of the Republican Attorneys General Association. The groups share funding, staff and office space in Washington, D.C.
In a statement to NBC News, Alabama Attorney General Steve Marshall, who runs the fund, said the calls were sent out without his knowledge.
“I was unaware of unauthorized decisions made by RLDF staff with regard to this week’s rally,” said Marshall, who assumed his role Nov. 10. “Despite currently transitioning into my role as the newly elected chairman of RLDF, it is unacceptable that I was neither consulted about nor informed of those decisions. I have directed an internal review of this matter.”
A website set up to promote the rally that preceded the Capitol incursion lists the Rule of Law Defense Fund as one of the participating organizations. The site has since been taken down.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:02 am……..
My best friends wife runs the Anesthesiology department for a series of hospitals in the Kaiser network. She has 7 hospitals, with somewhere around 40 Aneth/Nurse Anest per. She had one (1) left available as of this morning. So if you need surgery for anything in those 7 hospitals, you can’t. If you need intubated for Covid, it will be by someone who doesn’t do it every day, or ever outside of training. They’re pulling in EMT’s to do it since they’re the next most likely person to perform the procedure, it is a pretty dangerous one for the inexperienced.
For emergency surgeries, they’re airlifting patients to the Inland Empire, even Vegas (which doesn’t have good hospital density)
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:17 amBack when the War Against Militant Islamism was more of a hot war, I remember so many incidences of militant Islamists doing their attacks, and then news reports afterward would commonly say that the attackers were radicalized by social media, that they listened to or watched the more imams fill their heads with fringe violent views. The folks at the Capitol didn’t look much different from Iranian mobs in Tehran plazas shouting “death to America!”
This is what Trump’s disinformation campaign and his cult following have wrought, and conservative talk radio and conservative TV and right-wing social media amplified that disinformation. They’re complicit, too.
A year or so back, I recall Erick Erickson and some others mention that God has blessed the Trump administration, and I looked at the Scripture and, sure enough, he’s got Bible on that. This means that God also blessed the worst of the Old Testament kings as that was also part of God’s overarching plan. Along those lines, I was wondering who the worst OT king was, and it looks like the consensus opinion is King Ahab.
Replace “Baal” with “Trump” and it sort of fits. It’s like that line in House of Cards, where Francis Underwood says “I don’t want your loyalty, I want your devotion.”
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:17 am/stream of conscious rambling
Profile of the violent QAnon nutcase gunned down while trying to impose fascism on America.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:22 amMy comment 2 is stuck in moderation probably because it contains quotes advocating violence, as it describes planning by insurrectionists to return to Washington DC on January 20th to disrupt the inauguration, calling it “war”:.
NBC News: Right-wing extremists vow to return to Washington for Joe Biden’s inauguration
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:40 amIn the wake of Wednesday’s riot at the Capitol, Trump supporters with extremist views feel emboldened and are vowing to return to Washington for the upcoming inauguration of President-elect Joe Biden on January 20, using online platforms to rally each other.
………
The attempted seizure of the Capitol was a continuation of Oklahoma City, Charlottesville, and the Whitmer kidnap plot, along with the lone wolf massacres in El Paso, Pittsburgh, and Poway (CA). This was not an isolated incident, and it will get worse .
I am hesitant to post anything given all the comments I have seen the past year or so. So here goes, anyway.
Have you all seen how hatred has diminished us all? I’m not talking about trolls. I’m talking about everyday life.
I believe that character is everything. I always have. The Left told me I was wrong with Bill Clinton. The Right is telling me I’m wrong about Donald Trump. I still believe in character as an indicator of worthiness.
I could not, and never did, vote for either Clinton or Trump. Character isn’t enough. Mitt Romney was a fine man, and so was Jimmy Carter. Barak Obama is a good father and husband.
Yet overheated anger, straw man argumentation, personal attacks, and utter hypocrisy remain the order of the day, everywhere. Riots at police stations are okay. Invading the capitol building is okay. It all depends on the narrative of whom is speaking. And it is usually about slogans and bumper stickers, not about an organized, reflective ethos.
I watch Joe Biden currently praise Mitt Romney, when not too many years ago, that same Biden said that that same Romney was (to a Black audience) “…gonna put y’all back in chains…”
Just two things, and I will go back to lurking.
1. Hating Donald Trump is not going to help anything. He thrives on controversy. The press does and always has piled on unfairly (and does so in advancement of their own narrative). Trump thrives on resentment and bombast and outrageousness; he is a creature of the media.
So I intend to ignore him and move on. It will take his oxygen away. Sort of like this:
https://youtu.be/3PWKFyhJ2h4
Not nasty laughter. Healthy laughter. And a question: what politician could speak for me, and why do I choose that person to do so? Must we perceive all politicians as absolute evil or consistent perfection? Certainly our media masters want us to believe so.
For clicks. For eyes. For dollars.
2. This is an opportunity for all of us to be clear about our own ethos. What we believe, and why. Not reflexively, and not out of hate. Hate makes people—all people—extreme. I believe that both political parties are essentially dead figureheads, and only exist to advance a very small set of agenda items, coupled with posturing and self congratulation…while hating “the other side.”
In addition, forming a tribe with people who believe just what you do seems to increase the tribalism, in an uncontrolled feedback loop.
“Don’t hurt people, and don’t take their stuff” is good enough for me.
All the outrage is baked into the algorithms of our media masters.
I was recently reminded of a friend from graduate school, so many years ago. She didn’t like the way I was treated, ostracized, and excluded. She was and is a fair and kind person. So she decided to treat me like a “project,” because she felt how I was treated was wrong. Even though I mostly worked in the lab at night, she moved her lab station next to mine, and talked with me every day.
“May I ask you something personal?” she asked one day.
I told her fine, but if it was too personal, I would not answer (people are strange).
“Is it true you are a…Republican?” she asked. Her tone was as if she had said “drug dealer” or “pornographer.”
I told her I was registered that way, because I feared extremism. I still do fear it, by the way, though I have long since registered Independent. Extremism seems rampant in both parties.
“How can you believe…those things?” she asked me, in a sad tone.
I asked her what things she supposed I believed, since we had never discussed it.
We discovered that there were some things we agreed upon (freedom of speech), and some things (mostly foreign policy) where we did not.
Her mind did not change, nor did mine, but she began to see me as a person of worth—despite our differences. As someone who has carefully thought about issues, and come up with a philosophy. That I was kind and helpful to others.
We should all be like my friend. Less labeling. Less anger. And maybe—just maybe—begin to move toward the center. Sometimes, I think that all of our politicians need to follow the “I cut, you choose” model of kindergarten governance.
Of course people will ignore or snicker at me. But my thoughts (and vote) are worth as much as anyone else’s.
Thank you for listening, and no matter what you believe, have a good weekend.
Simon Jester (72e89c) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:42 am@3-
Is this disenfranchisement of an individual citizen possible without a felony conviction?
Yes, if a person holds an office under the Constitution one can be banned from holding a public office. Committing a crime is not a prerequisite for impeachment.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:43 amIt’s in the text of the Constitution.
The 14th Amendment also bars Trump and many of other
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:54 amRepublicansFascists who took part in the insurrection from ever holding office again:Thank you for the comment, Simon.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:01 amVery good comment, Simon. If nothing else, it made me think twice about responding to Dave’s comment #8. De mortuis nil nisi bonum, at least.
I will tell you one positive thing that I felt on Wednesday. In November, my vote for Biden was grudging and for Harris trepidatious (it’s a word, I looked it up). On Wednesday, I was glad that I voted for them.
nk (1d9030) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:03 amThe item about the “Camp Auschwitz” idiot servers as a strong indication of the sheer lunacy of that group on Wednesday. Along with the gross antisemites was a Brooklyn resident who is an Orthodox Jew and the son of a Brooklyn Supreme Court Judge.
——
Almost one full year in to this pandemic and our major officials are still pulling this kind of garbage? I mean, I know the report used non-definitive words such as “suggests” and “may,” but CDC officials should have known that it would be irresponsibly sensationalized by the media.
JVW (ee64e4) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:06 amSimon Jester (72e89c) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:42 am
felipe (630e0b) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:06 amGood comment, thanks.
@14 My sentiments exactly, nk. I, too, hesitantly voted for Biden, but especially after the events of the last few days, it’s obvious that it was the only reasonable choice.
Roger (782680) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:07 amI join with the others in saluting you for that great comment, Simon Jester.
JVW (ee64e4) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:08 amThe strategy of ignoring evil people doing evil things, and pretending they aren’t evil, doesn’t have a great track record.
This week the President of the United States, with the support of 2/3’s of his party’s Representatives and numerous Senators, incited a fanatical mob of thousands of cult followers who accept his lies without question to mount a violent assault on the Capitol, attempt to take lawmakers hostage, and install him as a dictator by overturning a democratic election.
At what point should we start to be concerned?
For all the noble sentiment in Simon Jester’s post, he attempts to create a moral equivalence where none exists.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:13 amI disagree, Dave. Simon Does nothing of the sort. I suggest that it is your who are being creative.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:17 amhah, “you” not “your,” but we knew that.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:19 amThen you’ll like my next comment on the Twitter ban thread, Mr. Dave. (If I post it.)
nk (1d9030) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:19 amPost it here, nk. For consistency on the discussion.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:25 amI sure hope nk is setting up a classic Rick-roll.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:27 amWell said, Simon.
Regarding Park Police, the planning for January 6th was there for leadership to see, it was there for leadership to see.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:29 amI’m sorry, Dana, I did not see your admonition at 23 in time.
nk (1d9030) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:31 amI appreciate the links, Paul, thank you. But Those posts occurred on Jan 6. Which diminishes the impact for me. I want to see the warnings posted days earlier; I want to see who tried to sound the alarm by calling attention to those online plans in plain view.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:36 amThank you, friends. I am so depressed about things.
Simon Jester (72e89c) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:41 amMoral equivalence. Bah.
Trump humpers stick up for Trump because “he fights.” Fights for what? Fights for whom?
The real fighters out there are the people standing up and saying, “No. You won’t shut my business down,” and “No. You don’t have the authority to do that.” That’s what real fighting looks like, and it’s being done by real people. If politicians have the power to determine your prosperity for good or for ill, it’s the system that’s broken and it won’t matter who occupies any elected office.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:48 amSimon, I fear that too many of our culture’s conversations are now through impersonal social media….be it blogs, twitter, or Facebook. It’s hard to be as nasty to and demonstrate such bad faith to someone sitting across the table. What makes us so angry that we now have families getting ripped apart because of…oftentimes ill-formed…political opinions? We’ve clearly made politics…specifically the winning/losing aspect of it…too much of our lives. I tend to agree that Trump…love him or hate him….should not occupy as much of our time, energy, or thought power. I acknowledge that it is important to win back the GOP to normalcy and sanity…because we need a stable and effective voice from the Right. But there’s too much sniping and bad faith discussions with the worst of the worst actors winning the most attention. The media needs to ratchet back. We need to restore the middle…and marginalize the bomb throwers. More high-visibility opinion makers need to start waving the yellow and white flags…or else we will just start seeing more and more violence….
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:52 amTwitter warns of new violence to come, brewing again on social media, as reason for Trump ban
Twitter’s extraordinary action against President Trump on Friday night was driven both by the violent rampage of his supporters in Washington and what the company said was a looming “secondary attack” on the U.S. Capitol and state government facilities next weekend — a finding that tracks with the open threats of violence independent researchers have also found across the Web.
Calls for widespread protests on the days leading up to the inauguration of President-elect Joe Biden have been rampant online for weeks. These demonstrations are scheduled to culminate with what organizers have dubbed a “Million Militia March” on Jan. 20 as Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala D. Harris are to be sworn in on the same Capitol grounds that rioters overran on Wednesday.
……[T]hese calls to action have bristled with violent talk and vows to bring guns to Washington in defiance of the city’s strict weapons laws. Twitter cited some of these posts in its announcement stripping Trump of his account and preventing him from creating new ones in the future. Some event listings are openly discussing delivering “justice” for Ashli Babbitt, a rioter and Air Force veteran who was fatally shot by police inside the Capitol on Wednesday.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:57 am…….
“REFUSE TO BE SILENCED,” said one online post cited by Alethea Group, calling for an “ARMED MARCH ON CAPITOL HILL & ALL STATE CAPITOLS” for Jan. 17, the last Sunday of Trump’s polarizing presidency. Another post calling for action at “DC & All State Capitols” and signed by “common folk who are tired of being tread upon” declares: “We were warned!”
………
The Alethea report lists events planned for Jan. 17, as well as the day before the inauguration and on Inauguration Day itself. The specified locations include the U.S. Capitol and the Mall in Washington, the Utah Capitol in Salt Lake City, and locations in Pittsburgh and Columbus, Ohio. Some events, including an “Armed March on All State Capitals,” include localized events in all 50 states.
…….
I am so depressed about things.
I recommend reading more Jack Vance, Simon:
nk (1d9030) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:58 amConservatives have a history of complaining about the term “violent extremist,” saying it’s a way of evading any mention of what really motivates the people in question. Which it often has been. So surely no true conservative could object if we apply the same rule here and acknowledge that the people trying to foment civil war are “devoted Trump supporters.”
It’s more appropriate to mock and ridicule him, because he can’t bear being seen as flawed and failed in any way, and because his boated self-regard is the main cause of the current crisis.
It bothers me a lot that so many people have chosen to keep feeding his gargantuan ego and elevate him as a moral hero (while pretending it isn’t about morality), and have chosen to encourage his delusional insistence that he could not possibly have won a fair election. They have allowed their judgment to be corrupted by a sociopathic madman, and have made enemies of people who still believe what they used to — that character matters. I can only hope that influential people come to realize the role they played in stoking violent sedition, just as they want people on the left to be held accountable for promoting ideas that give fuel to riots.
It’s salutary to have frequent everyday interactions with people who disagree on politics. One finds that more of them are genuinely good people than bad.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:02 am@ Dave, “attempt to take lawmakers hostage, and install him as a dictator by overturning a democratic election”
Capturing the Capitol had zero chance of installing Trump anywhere…that sounds like hyperbole….and given the insurrectionists fired zero shots…..it was…in the end…a pretty feeble attempt at taking hostages. It was awful…but let’s not make it into Tiananmen square. The Capitol was back in operation hours later, the election was certified, there’s been considerable blowback at Trump, and though the GOP remains too timid, few GOP notables continue using irresponsible language. Maybe it’s not the end of Trumpism…but it’s a look that is quickly marginalizing itself…..morally and intellectually.
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:06 amOops — “his delusional insistence that he could not possibly have LOST a fair election.”
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:07 amSimon Jester (72e89c) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:42 am
I’m not one of those people. The only alternative is to “other” people and retreat into factions.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:09 amWhile reading up on the Democrats and impeachment, I read an article from last year, which I inadvertently posted today. I’ve updated the post with the correct story from this week. Apologies.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:10 amAre you suggesting we should wait until the anti-American forces have a decent chance of success before we are moved to action in response?
I’m being facetious, I know you didn’t say that, but the first Nazi putsch and the first attempt to seize power by the Bolsheviks were also inept failures. They only have to succeed once.
Also:
Absolutely untrue.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:21 amI regret that you’re nonplussed, felipe. The WSJ has something out today, and it’s not behind a paywall. The stage was set, and it was not a secret, and his devotees planned for said events.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:23 amEr, planned.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:24 amTrump’s own belief that he could not possibly have lost the election fairly is entirely the product of his own narcissism, independent of any evidentiary basis. We know that because he said beforehand that he couldn’t lose unless Biden cheated — and because such a view is consistent with how he talks about himself all the time.
Then, people who had hitched their wagons to Trump set out trying to find evidence to support his narcissistic belief that he could not possibly have lost fairly. Would they have been so committed to that project if Trump weren’t so insistent of his own invincibility?
Trumpers have done something similar every time they say “No other president would have done this good thing I like!” They have made themselves willing servants of a pathological egomania, while claiming it’s the most patriotic and virtuous stance to take.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:26 amGryph (f63000) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:48 am
FIFY. The last part isn’t exactly right. It matters a little bit who occupies elected offices but right now it’s more a question of details and scale. We’ve essentially legalized the corruption and rot that’s broken the system. I can’t help but also think about honest public servants who’ve made sacrifices and maintained their personal integrity. It’s interesting that the new catchphrase is law and order instead of rule of law and due process.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:30 am‘Inside job’: House Dems ask if Capitol rioters had hidden help
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:31 am@12 – Thank you, Dave, for the explanation.
John B Boddie (d795fd) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:34 amAJ Liberty @34:
Capturing the Capitol had zero chance of installing Trump anywhere…that sounds like hyperbole….and given the insurrectionists fired zero shots…..it was…in the end…a pretty feeble attempt at taking hostages. It was awful…but let’s not make it into Tiananmen square. The Capitol was back in operation hours later,
This time. Do you think it will be the last? And I do not concede that the terrorists fired “zero” shots. We’ll see what the investigation shows.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:38 amThe riot had feeble results but it was not feebly pursued:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1347749675777011714
[Video of crowd attempting to force entry crushing a police officer]
It is possible for an insurrection to be absurd and incompetent and also dangerous. The more evidence emerges of people yelling for the execution of politicians, or wandering around with zip ties the more it’s clear that in the mix of MAGA tourists and wackos were people with more dangerous intent, however bad they were at carrying it out.
And that’s not even counting who ever clocked the officer with a fire extinguisher.
What’s worse in a way is the evidence of complicity by some police, the strange passivity of some law enforcement, and the continuing attempts by the Pentagon to cover up their noninvolvement. For this latter I reference an analysis of the latest Pentagon timeline, which misleads regarding how much they were prepared to help with the riot (which they call by the way the First Amendment Protests):
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/1/9/2007564/-Pentagon-s-timeline-of-cooperation-with-DC-police-is-as-deceptive-as-its-label-for-the-insurrection
Victor (4959fb) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:40 amAJ Liberty @34:
And why do you assume the aim was to “capture” the Capitol? It could have just as easy (and more likely) the insurrectionists wanted to seize/execute hostages.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:41 amDave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:21 am
I didn’t suggest that at the time but that’s not the situation we’re in now. At this point we’re closer to the situation 1933 than 1923. If things don’t improve we’ll see an Enabling Act, probably before summer. It’ll have a cute acronym like SAFE and there’ll be people on CNN saying things like “think about the children”. Or it’ll just be an EO.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:41 amSimon Jester,
I appreciate your thoughtful comments. Politics, while obviously important to all of us, should not consume us. And it certainly shouldn’t be the driving force of our lives. But the fact is that politics matter and they do impact us all (especially with what happened this week). From the local level all the way up to the national level. Finding a balance with that, and working to keep that balance strikes me as a healthy goal.
Speaking only for myself, while I despise what Trump has done to the country and believe him to be a man with no character to speak of, I still don’t wish him ill will, or that he would meet with a violent end as so many do. I don’t wish this for his family or supporters either. Because, if I claim to be a person of faith, then there is a standard of behavior that has been modeled for me. I take that seriously. I am an abject failure at meeting that standard, but grace and transformation are His business and work to do. Mine is to yield and be mindful. And that I attempt to do. I am comfortable criticizing Trump, who wields a frightening level of power. And I am comfortable making observations about how that power can be and has been used – not to better America but to better and increase his brand and fortunes. I may criticize him for all manner of things and feel justified in doing so, but I also know that harboring actual hate in my heart only makes a mockery of my faith and at the end of the day, harms only me.
I am currently in a strange predicament with two Trump loyalists in my family whom I dearly love. They have mocked and criticized me for my position of attempting to hold the middle. They have laughed in my face at my sadness at so many passing from Covid-19 and so many sick (It’s just another flu!), for believing that wearing a mask might help limit transmission, for being concerned at the underlying violence and anger in the ranks of the Trump superfans (haven’t spoken to them since the insurrection), etc., etc., etc. Because they are people I love, I don’t want to close the door to the relationships. But I’m not going to lie: it becomes more and more difficult to engage, and I find myself intentionally changing the subject to talk about anything else but politics of the day. And if that doesn’t work, I simply say that I am unwilling to talk about Trump/politics. I sense that we are nearing a tipping point, however. Especially if things ratchet up during the inauguration and here on out. I don’t know how I will react then but I hope that however I react will be insulated in love. In my entire adult life, I have never experienced the level of hostility, anger, and sense of entitled vengeance by a swath of the population as I have since the arrival of Trump.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:41 amDana (cc9481) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:41 am
This is a core element of dealing with the issues you mentioned. There’s no need to speak out against others but you can’t lie, especially to yourself and you can’t choose to believe lies. You’ve got to rigorously question your own beliefs if only so that you can maintain them and your beliefs have to actually be yours.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/9/2021 @ 12:02 pmSenior Trump Official: We Were Wrong, He’s a ‘Fascist’
On Friday afternoon, 48 hours after the U.S. Capitol was stormed by violent insurrectionists encouraged by Donald Trump in an attempt to overthrow the government in protest of his election loss, a senior member of his administration spoke to me while he was driving to work.
“This is confirmation of so much that everyone has said for years now — things that a lot of us thought were hyperbolic. We’d say, ‘Trump’s not a fascist,’ or ‘He’s not a wannabe dictator.’ Now, it’s like, ‘Well, what do you even say in response to that now?’”
…… These officials believed the benefits of remaking the courts with conservative justices, or passing tax reform, outweighed the risks that a Trump presidency posed to democracy and to the reputation of the country in the world. Now, at the 11th hour, with 12 days left before Joe Biden is sworn into office, it’s clear to some that it was always a delusion.
“This is like a plot straight out of the later, sucky seasons of House of Cards where they just go full evil and say, ‘Let’s spark mass protests and start wars and whatever,’” the senior administration official said.
…….
……. Trump is an increasingly symbolic figure — Norma Desmond with the nuclear codes and sycophantic butlers in his ears on a West Wing Sunset Boulevard soundstage. With no power left to grab, many staffers spent the weeks following November 3 making themselves scarce, plotting their post-White House careers, avoiding the president’s calls.
…….
Advisers have expressed concern and anger over Mark Meadows, the chief of staff, whose actions have been perceived as an effort to secure employment with Trump in his post-presidency, perhaps at the Trump Organization. “Jared has been telling people, ‘Don’t even deal with him anymore,’” one adviser said. “Mark’s responsible for bringing kook after crazy after conniver after Rudy into the West Wing.” (“This is completely false,” Avi Berkowitz, Jared Kushner’s spokesman, said in a tweet responding to this article, “Jared has never said that.”) A former senior White House official said, “Morale plummeted under him, huge mistakes were made — and now he’s scrambling to stick around after. He’s a dishonest a@@hole who pretends to be this religious Southern gentleman……..
The senior administration official put it this way: “The only way it gets to this point are a thousand really bad small decisions. The first time Sidney Powell calls the White House switchboard and is allowed to speak to the president, the next thing you know she and others are in the West Wing — these are areas where the chief of staff has unilateral authority to do what he wants to do.” Instead, the official said, Meadows tells Trump what he wants to hear, and often calls whomever Trump has directed him to call, repeats what Trump told him to say, and then apologizes, explaining that he just needs to be able to tell the boss that he followed his orders.
…….
This adviser, who spoke to Trump on Wednesday amid the siege, said Trump watched the events on television intently. CNN reported that he was so excited by the action, it “freaked out” some staffers around him. The adviser told me that Trump expressed disgust on aesthetic grounds over how “low class” his supporters looked. “He doesn’t like low-class things,” the adviser said, explaining that Trump had a similar reaction over the summer to a video of Brad Parscale, his former campaign manager, shirtless and drinking a beer in his driveway during a mental-health emergency in which police tackled him and seized his weapons. “He kept mentioning, ‘Oh, did you see him in his beer shirt?’ He was annoyed. To him, it’s just low class, in other words.”
The adviser said that Trump recently offered them a pardon, although they have not been charged with any crime. The adviser “politely declined.” Others are taking Trump’s pardon offers more seriously, whether they’ve been investigated or are at risk of jail time or not. “He’s just talking up a storm about giving pardons to allies: his kids, and their significant others, and staffers. He’s pretty generous with the offers. When you’re offered one, it’s like, Should I take it? Is it like insurance?”
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 12:05 pm…….
This explains why Trump’s telerpromptered “orderly transition” message looked more like a hostage video.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/9/2021 @ 12:13 pm‘Hang Mike Pence’ trends on Twitter after platform suspends Trump for risk of ‘incitement of violence’
Twitter saw a surprising item trending on Friday night when “Hang Mike Pence” hit around 14,000 tweets, according to reports.
The social media platform announced Friday night that it was permanently suspending President Donald Trump’s Twitter account.
The decision was made “due to the risk of further incitement of violence,” according to a statement on the company’s blog.
…….
Many users were confused, then, to see such a violent item in the trending section.
……..
Twitter appeared to notice the trend at some point: on the Twitter Trending USA site, which tracks the past 12 hours of the top 10 trending, the item does not appear.
“We blocked the phrase and other variations of it from trending,” a Twitter spokesperson told Fox News on Saturday. “We want trends to promote healthy discussions on Twitter.”
……
Some users were quick to point out that the trending item was not due to fresh threats, but rather that users were circulating a video from the Wednesday riot at the U.S. Capitol.
In the video, protesters could be heard chanting the phrase repeatedly.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 12:17 pm…….
Dana,
I am obviously a lot more left than you but I also have a Trump supporter in my immediate family. My solution has been to never discuss politics with him, at all, and to change the subject if the issue gets raised. But the cost of course is that we are not discussing something important to both of us, and the chance for having a closer relationship is cut off. The problem is that if we did have that conversation we could easily burn bridges that would never get rebuilt based on our opinion of the other person’s morality and intelligence. Some things linger in the air long after they are spoken.
There’s not really good solutions I think, except to simply accept that love for family will simply have to exist at a level below logic or reason, and that loving someone doesn’t mean you will always like them.
Victor (4959fb) — 1/9/2021 @ 12:18 pmSteve Bannon’s ‘War Room’ Channel Pulled From YouTube
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 12:23 pmThanks, Victor. Even though you are left of me, I agree. I think with family members, it’s not like you and I talking about Trump (civilly, and with some overlap), but the historical relationship and status (parent-child, older sibling-younger sibling) also comes into play even though we are all adults. It complicates things a bit more. There is a balance between sticking to one’s beliefs and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater because those beliefs must be Said Aloud. They don’t need to be. At least not by me. And that’s all I have control over.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/9/2021 @ 12:29 pmThe WA Post has a piece on Ashli Babbitt, the gal who died in service to Trump’s Big Lie.
The video I saw showed her at the front lines, among the folks trying to storm the doors, with congressional members in the background trying to get. I’m not LEO, but the shooting look justified to me.
Paul Montagu (8bcc32) — 1/9/2021 @ 12:39 pmThere was a frenzy among the rioters that couldn’t be captured by words.
Nobody wants to talk about Nancy “asking” the Joint Chiefs about “ignoring” orders from POTUS? No worries about a coup there I’m sure.
The nutty conspiracy theories aren’t limited to the Trumpers.
frosty (b03cc5) — 1/9/2021 @ 12:47 pmMore than justified.
Watching the police officers in that video stand there passively as rioters push them around, verbally abuse them, break windows, and attempt to batter down the doors is appalling.
If the rioters had dark skin, that stairwell would have been a free-fire zone.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 12:55 pmThere’s a pretty big leap from zip ties to an actual planned attempt to take hostages. I agree, “why else” but since no one was zip tied…even guards that were overwhelmed and could potentially have been, I’m not persuaded that this was their honest intent…any more than them having knives meant they were planning to cut Pelosi’s throat. What exactly was the plan to get by the armed security? Yes, they had guns but were they being drawn and aimed. I don’t think so or else that would have almost certainly have triggered return fire. Again, I’m looking for evidence of actual escalation beyond what might be found on an open forum…where everybody is a tough guy. My point is not to diminish it…at all….I favor broad prosecution….and impeachment…though I think the GOP doesn’t have the courage to do it. But it’s also not to use hyperbolic language. Thankfully more people appear to have died from heart attacks than from actual wounds. Thank God. I won’t call it F-Troop like DCSCA…because you never knew at the start….but I’m not sure I ever felt that the government was going to fall…or that Trump was close to becoming dictator.
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:03 pmIf Trump will incite a violent terror attack on the Capitol building, with congress and the vice-president inside, to install himself as an unelected dictator, why shouldn’t we expect him to use the nuclear weapons?
Is there any plausible scenario in which sending a mob to take congress hostage is OK, but nuking his enemies is off limits?
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:05 pmOh I tell you what the real problem is, Trump may not be able to launch nuclear weapons. There’s the real attack on we the people, you betcha.
Whatabout whatabout
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:12 pmThis is, of course, the perfect time to actually attack the USA. It would be impossible to counter properly. That ain’t Pelosi’s fault.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:14 pmwe are victims yet again mr dustin
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:16 pm“They have mocked and criticized me for my position of attempting to hold the middle. …. I have never experienced the level of hostility, anger, and sense of entitled vengeance by a swath of the population as I have since the arrival of Trump.”
This makes me sad….because on any objective level…Trump’s just not worth it. I think all our families see this similar dysfunction and I just hope that he fades away and people find something healthier to obsess about. It’s frightening how many people have been so easily swayed….and it’s why, at its core, I think the root is in how media has devolved in the past 20 years….and that people are consuming too much junk media
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:19 pmIn the extended video I watched last night, some people in the mob say “They’ve got guns,” referring to the police in the hallway past the door they’re trying to breach. So it isn’t as though they couldn’t have anticipated that someone might become a martyr to the cause.
Seeing those demented people wrapping themselves in the trappings of patriotism is chilling. That’s not my America.
Probably. I heard another perspective yesterday: that public anger over LE abuses in the summer may had led to overcompensation in the other direction. But that’s unlikely to be the main explanation. Trumpers complain about pols being too indulgent toward BLM rioters, but they have their own sympathizers in positions of power, including the president.
Have y’all seen the video sent out from the Trump inner circle, where they’re all watching screens showing the Trumpist mob storming the Capitol, and they’re in a celebratory mood? Trumpers claim to be “We the People” standing up to the enemies within. But it’s their president and his enablers who are the menaces within.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:31 pmThis has been festering and fermenting for decades. These people are tired of being used and suckered-punched by obtuse politicians repeatedly lying to them just to assemble winning coalitions, cycle after cycle, then shunted aside, ignored and discarded as their jobs and lives are ruined by trickle down decisions which, in reality, were piss-on-them policies benefiting only an elite. The data is there. Buchanan, Perot, Palin… and now Trump. This ‘populism’ has finally, finally boiled over. These people are “you”- your creation; the long hidden ‘Picture of Dorian Gray’ side of right wing politics used as means to an end. Both left and right employ the tactic, but this batch is coming full bore from the right, and they’ve spun out of control. And as the voter tallies show, their numbers are growing. They’ve had it. They’ve now tasted power and spilled blood as well. Yet still, the powers that be remain utterly, defiantly tone deaf to it in their bubble. These frustrated Americans, now locked down, frozen out of their jobs w/next to no paychecks need immediate and easy access to Covid vaccine and $2000 to tide them over– not more political blather about ‘impeachments’ from vacation politicians who haven’t missed a paycheck and work on a schedule fit for royalty. These middle and lower middle class Americans want action; what’s due them for services and taxes rendered from the elites hiding in the so called ‘citadel of liberty’:
“They are in a terminal panic. They hear the shouts of the peasants from over the hill. All the knights and barons will be riding into the castle pulling up the drawbridge in a minute. All the peasants are coming with pitchforks. We’re going to take this over the top.” – Pat Buchanan, 1996
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:31 pmSurely are enemies have noticed that we’re in a situation that requires military leaders to take the position that they may need to disregard the orders of the commander in chief.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:35 pmYep. Those are all reasons to kill someone.
There it is. The wonderful glory of justifying something because someone else “would” have done something bad.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:35 pmMs. Pelosi is next in line to the presidency after Pence. She had a legitimate reason to ask DoD if Trump is so unhinged to plan a last-minute military adventure.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:39 pmThe Democrats are considering lightning-quick action
To me, that would mean the Senate trial was already underway. As it stands, the Senate will not even consider doing business until Jan 19th, unless unanimous consent is reached to do so earlier. I wonder if Cruz or Hawley feel like doubling down.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:43 pmShe had a legitimate reason to ask DoD if Trump is so unhinged to plan a last-minute military adventure.
This came up before with Nixon’s final days. There are likely some special provisions in place now.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:44 pmA substantial majority of citizens voted to eject Donald Trump from the White House and install Biden. It’s mathematically absurd to think their votes mostly represent the interests of elites who trample on the middle and lower-middle class. Some wealthy elites voted for Trump, and donated heavily to his campaign, to serve their own interests.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:44 pm@69 — Trumpers always complain that they’re treated badly just because they love Trump. What unfolded in the Capitol was certainly not a case of Trumpers being treated badly.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:47 pmRight-wing extremists vow to return to Washington for Joe Biden’s inauguration
All those claiming to be coming to DC Jan 19th are going to be SOL if they didn’t get their rooms in November (or, speculatively, earlier).
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:47 pm@70. “Ms. Pelosi,” who doesn’t have the courage to stand in the doorway and defend her own office from the likes of old ‘Elmo Grizzle’ from man-handing her mail, sure as hell has no business playing politics by injecting herself into United States nuclear weapons methods and procedures– and then making her meddling public.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:50 pmWhat unfolded in the Capitol was certainly not a case of Trumpers being treated badly.
I suspect they were treated as they were to make sure who was the seen as the bad guys. Had they been clubbed to the ground or fired upon (both of which they richly deserved) the narrative would be different. I think TPTB decided to give them all the rope they needed and they hanged themselves.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:51 pm@72.Yes, but Haig and Kissinger sure as hell didn’t try to score political points by going public w/their contingencies.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:53 pm“Ms. Pelosi,” who doesn’t have the courage to stand in the doorway and defend her own office
DCSCA’s world: “And today, in day 3 of the Capitol Hostage Crisis…”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:53 pmHaig and Kissinger sure as hell didn’t try to score political points by going public w/their contingencies.
Someone did. I didn’t hear about it on Kissinger’s secret newsletter.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:55 pmThey were threats to the officers and to congress.
I justified nothing.
I criticized the passivity of the police when confronting an army of fascist terrorists while they attacked the United States.
Police officers defending themselves and our country from a violent criminal mob is “something bad” now?!
It should have been a free-fire zone regardless of the skin color of the rioters.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:55 pm@79. Outrage is her forte. Especially on overly long, out-of-session vacations on America’s dime. Her paychecks clear; ice cream at $15/pint is pricey. 😉
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:00 pmIs this disenfranchisement of an individual citizen possible without a felony conviction?
Dave (@12) I think misses the point. Article I, Section 3 states what impeachment can do:
Dave’s point in the 14th Amendment involved Civil War traitors (or perhaps those convicted of sedition or insurrection in the current circumstances.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:00 pm@80. Not at the time- a lot of what was happening was kept on the QT for obvious reasons. The scotch-laden soliloquies to paintings etc., rug prayers, ec., were revealed in the post mortem flurry of Watergate books.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:04 pmIrony is truly dead.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:05 pmDave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 12:55 pm
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 1:55 pm
I stand corrected.
Do words really not mean anything anymore?
frosty (f27e97) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:05 pmIt should have been a free-fire zone regardless of the skin color of the rioters.
The story then would have been “Tienanmen Square” and not what it is now. Instead of martyrs and weeping children — and potential escalation with unknown consequences — we have a movement and a shameful president thoroughly discredited.
I think that Trump was hoping for a slaughter.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:06 pmhttps://twitter.com/BradMossEsq/status/1347992161359450120/photo/1
Actually, blanket pardons have happened before. Jimmy Carter pardoned everyone who had dodged the Vietnam-era draft. Trump could pardon everyone who had committed federal crimes at the Capitol on Jan 6th (and being in DC, all such crimes are federal).
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:09 pmThe escalation is coming anyway. Guaranteed these idiots try something else, if not on Inauguration Day, then a couple of days or so before.
Police better be ready. Take the kid gloves off this time.
Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:10 pm@84: It was announced on the network news shows during that last week.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:11 pmNo, I am well aware of what Article I, Section 3 says.
That’s why I said the 14th Amendment also bars Trump and his accomplices from future office.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:11 pm@84, @90: Not the details, of course, but the fact that the military would need additional authority before taking military action.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:12 pmDave, I’m sure you do know, but it was not what your comment said. No one had actually mentioned the direct clause that Boddie has asked about.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:15 pmEver the showman, await the Grand Finale, kids: he will pardon himself on January 20, 2021; bigfoot the inaugural of the plagiarist-elect wihut eve being there and the TeeVee cameras will follow him– and the drama of that first-in-history story– for weeks if not months to come.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:16 pmAmazing!
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:17 pmOr maybe you were just ahead of my thinking and think he’ll not be convicted in the Senate, but in a jury trial. I can accept that.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:18 pmNot just a “first of” but the media will use it as a cudgel to beat down Republicans and conservatives.
Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:18 pm@94L Right up to his final perp walk and pre-trial imprisonment as a flight risk.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:19 pma cudgel to beat down Republicans and conservatives.
Which Trump will happily participate in, seeing as how they betrayed him.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:20 pmIANAL, but I think I speak for every lawyer here in saying that the executive cannot pardon himself (and how did Blagojevich miss that?).
I may be wrong. Is there anyone here who will argue that he can?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:22 pmWhat a fatuous and utterly dishonest reply.
You specifically quoted a different sentence, about the race of the rioters, and said “There it is. The wonderful glory of justifying something because someone else “would” have done something bad.”
And now you try to juxtapose a completely unrelated sentence (which I responded to separately) with my reply to the other.
Not in TrumpWorld, clearly.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:25 pmHostage? The insurrectionists would have lynched her and Biden immediately.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:25 pm@84/@90:
“On August 2, 1974, Secretary of State Henry Kissinger admitted that General Haig had informed him that Nixon was considering the idea of surrounding the White House with troops. In an August 27, 1974 article in the Washington Post titled “Military Coup Fears Denied,” the fact was revealed that:
“Defense Secretary James Schlesinger requested a tight watch in the military chain of command to ensure that no extraordinary orders went out from the White House during the period of uncertainty (and) that no commanders of any forces should carry out orders which came from the White House, or elsewhere, outside the normal military channels.”
Tantamount to a military coup, and contrary to the Constitution, the Joint Chiefs of Staff sent a secret communique to all Commanders of the U.S. military forces around the world: “Upon receipt of this message you will no longer carry out any orders from the White House . Acknowledge receipt.” – source: https://modernhistoryproject.org/mhp?Article=FinalWarning&C=5.4
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:26 pmI don’t think the self pardon question is really answered as a matter of law. But Trump’s the kind of guy to make the answer “hell no”. You can’t just incite an insurrection to overturn an election and then declare yourself above the law. That would be insane. Trump is absolutely in criminal trouble. Plenty of democrat prosecutors hope they can be the one to get that headline.
If you told me a year ago I’d be taking AOC’s side vs Ted Cruz, I’d have laughed in your face. If Team R was smart, they’d have introduced impeachment yesterday.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:27 pm@102. Nah.
No Yeltin she.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:28 pmThe comment right before mine stated the substance of it, without citing chapter and verse.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:28 pmBlago was a federal offender.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:30 pmHe never cared about Republicans, or the conservative political movement in general. He’s a political nihilist. Say what you want about the tenets of national socialism dude, but at least it’s an ethos. /Sobchak
Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:31 pmHostage? The insurrectionists would have lynched her and Biden immediately.
Good luck getting them the half mile to the scaffold. It would have been Dog Day Afternoon.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:34 pmDCSCA,
That they later elaborated does not mean they said nothing earlier.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:35 pm@108: I should have put “betrayed” in quotes to reflect Trump’s thinking, as opposed to actuality.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:36 pmAs the days pass we get more accounts of what was going on, and they continue to counter the narrative that the rioters were “feeble” or that the police response was always passive, or that the rioters weren’t organized. Some members of the Capitol Police (apparently on the east side of the Capitol) had a tougher time of it and had to deal with cops among the rioters:
https://www.buzzfeednews.co…
Victor (4959fb) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:37 pmI don’t think the self pardon question is really answered as a matter of law
It is clear to me from my reading of the 1787 Convention notes. They were very concerned about just this situation, but no one ever thought that one could self-pardon. The discussion would have been nonsensical if that were true.
This would have meaning to an originalist. I doubt that any of the “living constitutionalist” types will side with Trump. Maybe a textualist would have issues, but they’d have to really want to.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:40 pmThere’s a pretty big leap from zip ties to an actual planned attempt to take hostages. I agree, “why else” but since no one was zip tied…even guards that were overwhelmed and could potentially have been, I’m not persuaded that this was their honest intent…
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:45 pmIf the insurrectionists had been able to seize a section of the Capitol with hostages I have no doubt there would have been summary trials of Members of Congress and their staffs, tied up, and placed in front doorways and windows.
Donald Trump-Norma Desmond with the nuclear codes
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:48 pmOver 50 years ago: Armed Black Panthers invade Capitol
(Sacramento Bee story from 1967)
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:48 pmNorma Desmond with the nuclear codes
You defame Norma. All she wanted was to relive her glory.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:51 pmJust to draw a line under the events of the week, we have a congresswoman from Illinois approvingly citing Hitler’s philosophy on political indoctrination of the youth.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:52 pmGood luck getting them the half mile to the scaffold. It would have been Dog Day Afternoon.
You’re right-the crowd would have torn her limb from limb before the got there.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:52 pm@110. They said nothing, publicly, at the time Kevin, which was wise and given the international climate then, smart. Brezhnev was already aware Nixon’s power was evaporating fast when the Big Dick went to Egypt for accolades, while Pelosi only went public purely to score political points against Trump w/this atomic foolishness. At times she’s as unhinged and petty as Trump.
Their priority now is to get the damn Covid vaccine out to people and $2000 to hurting Americans to tide them over and get them through this – not waste more time and energy on Trump. He’ll be gone in a dozen days.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:53 pmNorma Desmond with the nuclear codes
Best Pelosi comparison ever: and we have a thread winner!!!!
As plagiarism is now ‘in’– I’m gonna steal that. 😉
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 2:56 pmFox Whines About Social Media Bans, While Ignoring Plans For More Violence
……..
Naturally, this has Trump’s enablers over on State-Run TV up in arms, and it’s giving them a perfect excuse to completely ignore the fact that Trump’s deranged supporters are planning for more violence ahead of inauguration day at the Capitol, and this is the reason that Trump and his cohorts have been removed from these social media platforms in the first place.
Here’s just the latest example from this Saturday’s Fox & Friends, with Will Cain pretending none of the suspensions are justified and trying to scare their audience that these companies are coming for all of them next:
No, they’re coming for people who are planning for more armed insurrections and attempting to overthrow our government. His cohost Jedidiah Bila did actually admit that maybe it wasn’t such a good idea for Trump to incite his followers to the point that they actually put Mike Pence’s life in danger, but then continued to whine about “censorship” before Pete Hegseth followed up by absolving Trump for any responsibility for inciting the mob that marched over to the Capitol.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:03 pm……
Fox needs to double down on fear mongering to make up with Trump’s hoi polloi.
The leftists at Parler have removed Lin Woods’ call for Mike Pence to be executed.
Censorious Marxist thugs!
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:03 pmGOP senator (Toomey): Trump ‘committed impeachable offenses’
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:09 pmIf they try to impeach again just to prevent him from ever running again he’ll pardon himself- so that mess will dominate until it is sorted out- but then, can the pardoned person run again?
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:14 pmWhite House Forced Georgia U.S. Attorney to Resign
…….
A senior Justice Department official, at the behest of the White House, called Trump-appointed U.S. Attorney Byung J. Pak and told him he needed to step down because he wasn’t pursuing vote-fraud allegations to Mr. Trump’s satisfaction, the people said.
Mr. Pak resigned abruptly on Monday—the day before the runoffs—saying in an early morning email to colleagues that his departure was due to “unforeseen circumstances.”
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:18 pm……
When a U.S. attorney leaves the post, the No. 2 official in the office usually takes over on an interim basis until a new top prosecutor is named. In this case, Mr. Trump bypassed that typical process and immediately named the U.S. attorney in the Southern District of Georgia, Bobby Christine, to assume the job in an acting capacity. Atlanta falls in the Northern District of Georgia, and there is a separate Middle District in the state.
……
…… can the pardoned person run again?
Impeachments are not covered by pardons.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:23 pmHeh. I thought the Norma Desmond with the nuclear codes was referring to Trump! Smdedperste to read-live his glory days…when he could shoot anyone on 5th Avenue and no one would blink.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:25 pmDana-
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:27 pmIt was referring to Trump. See my post at 12:05.
The reference to “Norma Desmond with the nuclear codes“ is a reference to Donald Trump. See my post at 12:05:
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:32 pmYep, that’s an apt analogy.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:35 pmpolitical indoctrination of the youth
The idiot. Democrats have the sense not to talk about what they are doing.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:43 pmAmerican Airlines pilot threatens to divert plane full of maskless Trump supporters chanting ‘USA’ and ‘dump’ them in Kansas during wild flight from DC to Phoenix
……..
Video posted to Twitter shows the passengers in the cabin chanting ‘USA! USA!’
At one point, the pilot becomes fed up and tells the passengers on the loudspeaker: ‘This is the way it’s gonna be… it’s a four and a half hour flight to Phoenix.
‘We’ll put this plane down in the middle of Kansas and dump people off – I don’t care.
‘We will do that if that’s what it takes, so behave, please.’
The airline told DailyMail.com that passengers had refused requests by airline staff to wear face coverings.
Mindy Robinson, one of the passengers, wrote: ‘Wow. I’m on a plane full of patriots flying from DC to Phoenix and we started chanting “USA” …and the Captain came on said told us he’d drop us off in Kansas if he had to if we didn’t obey their every single rule.
‘American Airlines is everything but American.’
A spokesperson for the airline told DailyMail.com: ‘At American, we take the safety of our customers seriously and we value the trust they place in our team to care for them throughout their journey.
‘Prior to departure from Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport (DCA), the pilot onboard flight 1242 made an announcement emphasizing the importance of following crew member instructions and complying with mandatory face-covering policies.’
…….
There were also ‘no in-flight issues reported at this time,’ the airline said.
…….
American Airlines on Thursday announced that it will no longer serve alcohol on flights to and from the nation’s capital after flight attendants ‘were forced to confront passengers exhibiting politically motivated aggression towards other passengers and crew.’
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:44 pm…….
It was referring to Trump. See my post at 12:05.
I read it that way, too, but I think it works MUCH better with Pelosi. Trump remains Captain Queeg looking for his strawberries.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:47 pm“If they try to impeach again just to prevent him from ever running again he’ll pardon himself- so that mess will dominate until it is sorted out- but then, can the pardoned person run again?”
One weird trick to get around an impeachment. The founding fathers hate it!
Davethulhu (95ea9f) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:47 pmBiden has come out in favor of something that Dr. Fauci is against. He has dared to disagree with the what some people would call “science” It’s a good sign. He might make a better president than many people think.
And this despite making Dr. Fauci one of his chief advisers on the coronavirus.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:48 pmRip,
Those passengers should have been met by police as they disembarked. Disobeying aircrews is a federal crime.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:49 pmOne weird trick to get around an impeachment.
Impeachment is specifically excluded from pardons. The Founding Fathers thought of that one.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:51 pmIt’s OK what Dr. Birx said as long as everybody remembers it’s speculation. And probably bad speculation. (that isn’t the reason the virus might be spreading more than before. Rather it is something else they haven’t considered.)
People should feel free to speculate a little bit more.
And I wish somebody would say which monoclonal antibody might not work against the UK/South Africa variant. Both Regerneron and Eli Lilly use two.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:53 pmI hope they are smiling for the cameras at Dulles.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:56 pmImpeachment woould also, normally, permanently debar Donald Trump from running for office.
As such it will deprive the Democratic Party of a bogeyman and help the Republican Party. They won’t have to reject him. He’ll be done with politics.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:56 pmThey won’t have to reject him, except for 1/3 or more of the Republican Senators.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 3:57 pm51. Trump would be a fascist if what he wanted to do on January 6 was to attempt to force Congress, by surrounding the House and Senate chambers, to reject enough Electoral votes for him to win, and proclaim him the winner.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:00 pmThe Orwellian poo-flingers who have already denuded “fascist,” “communist” and “racist” of much of their descriptive value are determined to add “patriot” to the list.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:01 pmIf they try to impeach again just to prevent him from ever running again he’ll pardon himself…..
Article II, Section 2 states (in part):
Therefore the President can pardon himself (a dubious proposition) but if he is impeached and convicted, he would be ineligible to serve in a federal office.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:02 pmTrump has been banned from Pinterest.
Next, he’ll be banned from Netflix.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:03 pmTwitter has banned Donald Trump for life. More out of pressure from employees than because of conviction on the part of Jack Dorsey. Supposedly because he might incite violence. But his challenging of the election results is over.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:05 pmhe would be ineligible to serve in a federal office.
Only if that penalty is imposed (it isn’t always, see Alcee Hastings). If the purported article is accurate, they have chosen to impose that penalty.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:05 pmBut his challenging of the election results is over.
As is his ability to cause harm to Twitter.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:06 pm@130. But it fits perfectly w/Drama Queen Pelosi.
@134. Precisely. He’s full on Queeg; she’s full on Desmond; — right down to the make-up; and she’s ready for her close-up, maskand all, 24/7.
@.138. It certainly wouldn’t prevent a challenge, though; and it’s another camera grabber for the showman. He knows how to work it.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:36 pmYou misspelled “Obviously because he would keep inciting violence that is killing people.”
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:40 pmJust get the damn vaccine out and into arms and $2K into people’s pockets to get them through the winter so we can get the country up and running again. These politicians are s completely self-absorbed with themselves; do they even grasp WHY these people are after them w/pitchforks? No.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:42 pmDamn Ronald Reagan!
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:51 pm“willfully made statements that encouraged — and foreseeably resulted in — imminent lawless action at the Capitol,”
– Proposed article of impeachment.
If it was foreseeable, how come nobody in the Capitol police foresaw it?
The attackers had a great deal of the element of surprise.
Or do they mean foresaw something maybe, but not what happened? Congressman Adam Kinzinger foresaw something and left the House chamber. In fact, he foresaw something the day before and gave his staff the day off. But that was based on something other than Trump’s words that day. (He said social media and Twitter.)
All that Trump did is ask them to walk to the Capitol. Trump actually used the word “peaceful”
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6
But? Rev’s transcripts sometimes have slight errors in them.
Now if behind the scenes Trump planned something or knew something, that’s something else. But this was not planned out in public. Things don’t work that way. This was no more spontaneous, or triggered by Trump’s words at the rally. People should not be terrified of words spoken in public and look to it as the cause ad explanation.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:53 pm@153. You’re finally catching on, Dustin; trickle-down = pissed on which fueled the growth of populism.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:54 pmKevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:06 pm
Does anyone feel safer? I don’t. I’m expecting the “step in the right” direction responses but I really don’t think it is. This is looking behind the boat at the pretty icebergs.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/9/2021 @ 4:56 pmDamn Ronald Reagan
Damn overreactions to Russians in Afghanistan and damn crappy Army helicopters for the one job that had to be a success, but wasnt.
urbanleftbehind (c6b0a6) — 1/9/2021 @ 5:02 pmTrump used the word “fight” twenty times, but it won’t bear the construction of an assault.
He pretty much finished with:
Doesn’t sound like he wants to interrupt the proceedings. He doesn’t want the mob to “take back our country” – he wants the Congress to, or the Republicans in it.
Actually this makes no sense. Because he needed a majority of the House of Representatives for anything to happen. Somebody else planned what happened and sold him on the idea there was some plausible way for a crowd to help. Presumably scare Republican members of Congress politically. But it still wouldn’t help him if every single Republican member of the House and Senate went along. He needed some Democrats.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 5:04 pm* 154 This was no more spontaneous, or triggered by Trump’s words at the “Save America” rally, than the attack on the U.S. locations on Benghazi, Libya on September 11, 2012 were triggered by the events at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo earlier that day.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 5:10 pmThey got wolf boy.
nk (1d9030) — 1/9/2021 @ 5:30 pmTrump was building this up for years.
nk (1d9030) — 1/9/2021 @ 5:32 pmnk (1d9030) — 1/9/2021 @ 5:32 pm
He’s a true evil genius
frosty (f27e97) — 1/9/2021 @ 5:53 pmHe lacks the dignity to be evil, and the brains to be a genius. Just a rat gnawing at the cellar joists of America. A tweet here, a rally there, a firing of a patriotic official, a hiring of a lackey to replace him, ….
nk (1d9030) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:02 pmTrump considering Giuliani and Dershowitz for impeachment defense team
……..
While the President’s impeachment defense team is only just coming into view, it is becoming increasingly clear that the primary members of the team during his first impeachment would be unlikely to join.
Constitutional attorney Jay Sekulow, White House counsel Pat Cipollone and attorney Jane Raskin are not expected to be involved for a second impeachment trial. Cipollone is said to have considered resigning in recent days.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:12 pm……..
What!!??? Not Lin Wood or Sidney Powell????
25. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:29 am
Yes, but nobody believed it. Just like they didn’t believe all the other things they said. And they weren’t specific enough. And they said they would do it after Congress votes, not before.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:18 pmSammy @154 selectively edits out the action part of the quote, something Trump has said repeatedly over the last four years:
Trump doesn’t need to be explicit in his language, the insurrectionists got the message loud and clear.
Trump smiled.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:23 pmSammy, you should be an impeachment witness so you can explain what Trump “really” meant.
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:27 pmRip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:27 pm
The bullpen is full of Trump whispers but you seem to be doing a good job. You should sign yourself up.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:34 pmWith the fury and blind devotion seen in recent days and experienced by the author and some posters far upthread, I think I it should no longer be disputed that there was such a thing as shy Biden voters.
Giuliani might end up the fall guy when this is all said and done…he is being set up for the big fail at the impeachment trial and also uttered the actionable phrase of “combat”, so he might be fighting charges himself. Though I’d like to see an Abner Louima type deliver yard justice, it may better be dealt out by a member of the 5 families.
urbanleftbehind (c6b0a6) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:35 pmAmazon Is Booting Parler Off Of Its Web Hosting Service
Amazon on Saturday kicked Parler off its Web hosting services. Parler, a social network favored by conservative politicians and extremists, was used to help plan and coordinate the January 6 attempted coup on Washington D.C. It has recently been overrun with messages encouraging “Patriots” to march on Washington D.C. with weapons on January 19.
Amazon’s suspension of Parler’s account means that unless it can find another host, once the ban takes effect on Sunday Parler will go offline.
In an email obtained by BuzzFeed News, an Amazon Web Services (AWS) Trust and Safety team told Parler Chief Policy Officer Amy Peikoff that the calls for violence propagating across Parler violated its terms of service and that Amazon is unconvinced that the service’s plan to use volunteers to moderate such things will be effective.
………
Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:36 pmFull letter at link .
Trump’s Q-cult followers are very normal people.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:37 pmTo steal a coffee cup meme (yes, we had memes on coffee cups before internet), you don’t have to be crazy to be a Trump supporter but it helps.
nk (1d9030) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:50 pmlurker (d8c5bc) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:37 pm
Don’t worry Dorsey, Zuckerberg, and Wojcicki are on it.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:55 pmPaul Montagu (77c694) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:17 am
And that was not really true. There were inner circles and even more inner circles. Remember, terrorist plotters were concerned about operational security and infiltration. This is something some peole don’t take into account.
Yes, but that alone was not enough to turn someone into a terrorist.
Still, there should have been more focus on the teachers. Freedom of religion should have some limits, and when they start justifying murder, they’ve gone over it. (Many can be scared back.) You can also go after imams being bribed to say things like that, for they surely are. But you must have some Islamophobia to do that or at least.not be scared of that word. Maybe in another time and place, (like Burma after 2013) Buddhists can preach things like that. But it was going on with Islam and was well funded and it never goes on equally with all religious sects..
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:55 pm167. Rip Murdock (af4813) — 1/9/2021 @ 6:27 pm
It would be easy, because his words didn’t incite the mob to riot or storm the Capitol. If he had somebody would have expected it – it was a puBlic speech!
But they had the element of surprise. That fact alone should settle the question in the negative of whether there was any INCITEMENT to riot by Trump in that speech.
The draft articles of impeachment that have been circulated among House Democrats cite Trump’s incitement of the mob and his delayed decision to encourage it to disperse as high crimes and misdemeanors.
This is not what it should be about.
He did not incite the mob, and the proof of that is, nobody who knew the mob was coming thought it had been incited by Trump to invade the Capitol, although it is possible he knew at least some of what was coming. But at this stage we don’t know it.
And not condemning what was happening soon enough, or forcefully or adequately enough is not much and it’s a sin of omission too. If you were going to use that, make that ignoring pleas to say something in particular.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 7:20 pmWhat he should be impeached for is something about which the facts are not in dispute, even if you could argue it’s insufficient reason.
You could make this:
That’s enough.
Stick to undeniable facts.
You could add an Article 2:
You could put that in the resolution now partly in order to deter it, and partly because time is short.
This is like going ahead with the manufacture of the vaccine before it has been approved.
If he doesn’t pardon himself, you can acquit him of that count.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 7:21 pmTrump doesn’t need to be explicit in his language, the insurrectionists got the message loud and clear.
For those that don’t understand Trump’s position wrt the assault on Congress, I offer this video again: https://youtu.be/jXM6h9elyTY
Trump and his minions party as the assault plays out on all the TVs. Most of us looked on in horror, Mr President threw a party.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 7:23 pmSammy, by complaining about a self-pardon you treat it like it has an effect. It’s legal masturbation and nothing more.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 7:24 pmArticle I:
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 7:27 pmKevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 7:27 pm
You could do that, because as Gerald Ford once said, (in 1970) an impeachable act is anything a majority of the House of Representatives says it is, but I prefer that it give some specific causes as to why he is rotten and has no business in public life.
Note that neither of my two possible articles of impeachment involve anything that is a federal crime. It’s just conduct that is reason enough to declare he should be removed from public life. And I think it is significant that he repeatedly </I and persistently unjustifiably claimed he had really won the election.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 7:24 pm
I think it does have an effect, and I think a president can also be indicted, prosecuted and even jailed while still president. There are just practical problems with that.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/9/2021 @ 7:41 pmKevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 7:27 pm
We need to keep that one. That covers a lot of politicians and could come in handy.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/9/2021 @ 7:43 pm179.Article I:
He is a rude, no-good, rotten, evil and probably crazy assh0le who has no business in public life. We kick him to the curb and tell him never to come back.
Shorter:
Article I:
He is a New Yorker.
😉
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/9/2021 @ 7:54 pmHe is a rude, no-good, rotten, evil and probably crazy assh0le
I’m going to truncate that to “rude, rotten, and evil assh0le”, and use it when asked my opinion of Trump. Thanks, Kevin! For an engineer, you have a gift for language.
norcal (b4d7b1) — 1/9/2021 @ 7:55 pmSteve Hayes has an excellent retort to Hugh Hewitt.
Paul Montagu (7e74b0) — 1/9/2021 @ 8:02 pmPence says “yes” to Inauguration Day. Good thing.
Paul Montagu (a915a7) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:01 pmLin Wood to say “yes” to a visit from the Secret Service, if he hasn’t already.
Someone named Kevin, who isn’t me, responds to Hayes:
Is it worth the damage to the country to not prosecute?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:06 pmAfter the election, I had thought that Trump, defeated would be pardoned for all the relatively minor acts of his that were arguably criminal. Certainly Biden did not want Trump remaining on center stage.
As time went on, and Trump contested the vote with increasingly tortured arguments and calls on officials to “correct” the vote, I felt he needed to be impeached; that he was bringing the country into disrepute and destroying the credibility of elections in the world’s oldest democracy. But I felt that he would still get a pardon.
Then came the unhinged call with Georgia’s officials and it became clear that not only was he unreconciled to his loss, but he was no longer in control of his actions. The President of United States cannot be in a rage fugue, yet he was. Again, he needed to be impeached.
Then we have the rally, the attack and his party during the attack, where they were celebrating the efforts of his minions.
Now it is clear that, no matter what Biden wants, Trump needs to be impeached, conficted, barred from public office, tried for treason, hopefully convicted, and jailed for the rest of his hopefully short life.
So, no, I don’t think it would be bad to prosecute Trump. It would be terrible not to.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/9/2021 @ 9:16 pmNobody wants to see Trump rot in prison more than I do, but that doesn’t mean any of his morally treasonous behavior relating to the criminal insurrection at the Capital is prosecutable. I’m not saying it isn’t. Maybe he had as yet undisclosed conversations that qualify. But based on what’s known, I’m skeptical. Impeachable? Absolutely. Article III Section 3 Treason? I’d bet my mortgage check against it. Sedition or seditious conspiracy? I wouldn’t bet the mortgage, but I’d bet a smaller amount, also against it. The Georgia call? That may be criminal. If so, prosecute it. There are strong cases for obstruction of justice in the Mueller Report. Prosecute those.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:37 pmFLIP LIN WOOD!!!
urbanleftbehind (cd6534) — 1/9/2021 @ 10:45 pm@188 I think there might be something involved in the lack of security at the Capitol building and then the delay in getting more security there once the attack started, but an investigation needs to happen.
Nic (896fdf) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:44 pmThe newest excuse for not holding Trump accountable, from his enablers in congress, is “unity”.
If they really want “unity”, all we need is a 100 – 0 vote to convict in the Senate.
There’s your unity.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:56 pmWords Obi Wan never said: “Luke…do not blow up the Death Star…it will divide the galaxy even more…”
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:25 amJustin Amash’s successor seems to be one of the good guys
Dave (1bb933) — 1/10/2021 @ 8:38 amExtraordinarily brave of AWS, and Apple and Google as well.
Wake me when Amazon, Apple, and/or Google do something about China, which does far worse than some right-wing extremists on Parler; but of course, China pays a lot more.
Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:04 amFrom the interview of Rep. Peter Meijer:
Now would could have made them think Trump supporters might be violently fanatical?
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:08 amFrom the guy who saw the situation with clarity after Putin invaded-annexed the Crimean region of Ukraine, Timothy Snyder does the same with the situation here. A couple paragraphs:
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:10 amAntifa terrorists attack Trump supporters:
https://fox5sandiego.com/news/local-news/trump-supporters-counter-protesters-clash-violently-in-pacific-beach/
Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:11 amIMO, tech giants like Apple and Google are going too far.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:14 amIt’s one thing to ban a crazy man whose lies actually killed people and undermined our democracy. It’s something else for private companies to ban a company from even having a platform.
191. Dave (1bb933) — 1/9/2021 @ 11:56 pm
That’s what it would take to do this before January 20, according to Mitch McConnell. It would need unanimous consent to take this up immediately. Otherwise he says, the earliest date they could begin is January 19 (something to do with the legislative calendar.)
Now because impeachment takes priority there’d be some conflict with confirming Joe Biden’s appointments. (not really true – they could do that part time)
Anyway Jim Clyburn, who made Joe Biden president in 2020 the way Jeff Sessions made Donald Trump president in 2016, says the House should impeach Donald Trump, but they should hold the impeachment for awhile (like they did a year ago) and send it over to the Senate later.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:19 amFair point but we’re close enough to civil war that I’m glad the traitors aren’t being coddled. If Amazon were truly cynical, they would let the bad guys destablize our country even more, as they seem to thrive when normal retailers can’t be relied on.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:23 amAnd this from Rep. Mejier:
Intimidation and bullying are the hallmarks of Trump’s go-to plays:
Dana (cc9481) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:26 amTwitter and Facebook gave enormous indulgence to Trump until his treacherous lies had helped foment a seditious assault on the Capitol and an attempted coup. It’s absurd for Trumpers to claim that the subsequent bans are a totalitarian silencing of “conservative” views.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:34 amI think too many members of Congress aren’t used to running for office independently.
Tom Cotton looked a few steps ahead. Some others didn’t.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:41 amBold mine. I have many issues with that entire line or reasoning, but I will focus only on the following:
Local news declining? My local news is just fine , thank you. But trust in MSM news is declining for a good reason. People get to chose in whom they will place their trust. Social media, not unlike a playground contains about as much facts, gossip, and speculation. Social media is the comment section of the MSM news, IMO. It’s nice when people can agree on the truth, but the truth does not need consensus to exist. No one that I know contends that social media is a substitute for truth, it seems a strawman argument.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:42 amHere’s more from the rally:
Trump now only says that, he says it is “widely understood” which he couldn’t possibly believe, of course.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:44 amPaul Montagu (77c694) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:25 am
Yes, a fictional story with space wizards and tech that can destroy planets is a good basis for real decisions.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:47 amTwitter had Trump tamed – and then they gave it all up by banning him for life.
Now Trump is looking for something to do against Twitter and the other social media companies.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:48 amI must correct myself”
felipe (630e0b) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:52 amRe: Local news. I think they mean on paper, or with regard to state government. But it was never good.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:52 amfrosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:47 am
You do realize that, even though you may mean to mock Paul’s point, you are actually agreeing with him. Because he is mocking the same absurdity of thought that you recognize.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:55 amUsing violent or threats of violent intimidation….it’s reason #85 why character matters and why so many politically-astute Trump enablers really ought to have known better. The development of a Brown Shirt culture where representative have to worry about their family’s safety…cheered on by social media dregs….is a chilling development in our democracy. We are going further down the path of de-humanizing our opposition….and excusing the inexcusable.
I do think we have to counter this by winning back the media. I checked-in on FNC this past week….and the truth is that conventional (normal) conservative voices are not being heard there…I’m sure Rep Pete Meijer’s story is not being told. I suspect the same is true for the major Talk Radio shows…with Rush leading the way with solidarity with Trump over Twitter. Until Right Wing media can profitably mount a counter-insurgency to Trumpism….conspiracyism….and bullyism….we will be stuck with the masses taking their cues from the Tucker Carlson’s out there. The David Frenches need a bigger platform….and we need some courageous billionaires to find a way to make it happen in some sustainable way…..
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:58 amThis was known or at least knowable in 2015. Many people who knew it back then chose to forgot it, or to portray it as an expression of courage and resolve. They gave a “respectable” cover to those who love the bullying for its own sake.
It was also known that Trump is vindictive. The claim that he’s just a “counterpuncher” against people who do him wrong was not a good-faith argument. Do people really believe it’s always poor Donny getting cruelly attacked and he’s just trying to defend himself?
It was known long ago that Trump is vindictive. He enjoys destroying people who don’t give him what he wants, even when saying no is fully appropriate. In Trump’s mind, it’s never acceptable to refuse him what he wants.
It’s mystifying that people could think those attitudes wouldn’t be a problem in the presidency.
Add a fanatical cult following of people who see Trump as the only truly patriotic and trustworthy politician — and who like to speak of applying 2A solutions — and then tell them over and over that treacherous people are stealing an election from him and taking their country away from them: and the assault on the Capitol isn’t all that surprising.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:02 amfelipe (630e0b) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:52 am
That raises more questions about people you know than anything else. It’s also at odds with the Russia interference theory that depends on online propaganda to have “influenced” 2016.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:02 amHeh! you rascal, you.
“…and that’s a good thing.” – Martha Stewart
felipe (630e0b) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:07 am212.’Intimidation and bullying are the hallmarks of Trump’s go-to plays
This was known or at least knowable in 2015.’
Try 1983.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:12 amAn insuurection happened before in the United Sates I think he’s trying to argue this precedent means it could succeed on the second try)
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/opinion/trump-capitol-riot-impeachment.html
He writes it wasn’t white racism alone that did this but “it was contingent on any number of factors, with uncontrolled violence near the top of the list.” (in other words you don’t need virulent racism to get a coup.)
He wrote (rearranging his words) that the mob at the Capitol was silly (interested in selfies and souvenirs and streaming and in costumes) and the effort to install Donald Trump as president for a second time, inchoate, but it breached the Capitol and showed the world what was possible. “Five people are dead who were alive when Wednesday began. Next time, it might be dozens. Or hundreds. Next time, our government might not bounce back so easily.” So Congress needs to do something, even if it’s just amotion to censure (They are. They’ve putting up new fencing, both Sergeants of Arms and the head of the Capitol Police have resigned, people are being arrrested
Louisiana 1874 was mentioned somewhere else a day before:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/arts/what-are-sedition-charges.html
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:12 amNow Trump is looking for something to do against Twitter and the other social media companies.
Sound and fury, signifying nothing. No doubt anything he proposes will toothless, unconstitutional, or simply flaying around the next 9 days and 22 hours.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:13 amJosh Hawley (T-Missouri) was the stand in for a far more across the board recognizable sports figure…I knew he looked very similar to another Missourian (no inbred jokes please).
urbanleftbehind (3baf6e) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:15 amAnyway Jim Clyburn, who made Joe Biden president in 2020 the way Jeff Sessions made Donald Trump president in 2016, says the House should impeach Donald Trump, but they should hold the impeachment for awhile (like they did a year ago) and send it over to the Senate later.
This would doom the impeachment plan, but maybe that’s what they want to do. Again.
Impeachment is a political act, and it requires that the public be behind it. In the Clinton and Trump 1 cases, they didn’t have that and it didn’t work. Only if the Senators from the President’s party feel a lot of heat from their constituents will they dare vote to convict. It is never about “guilty” or “not guilty”, but “do we need to convict, politically.” In 1974, they had to. Right this very moment they probably have to.
I think that the Democrats’ desire is to have Trump continue to have a role in the GOP, keeping them weak and conflicted. By waiting several months (an eternity in politician-years), they let the public anger die down, and the number of Republican senators who will vote AYE diminishes.
In the best of all possible worlds, Trump still belabors the GOP and they get to use the fact that the Senate did not convict to fundraise and generally bash senators up for re-election (while Trump bashes the ones who voted to convict).
Win-win.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:20 amOh that’s the backflip guy (did backflips from his car).
Great. I’m sure he’s going to balance the budget and work through Russia’s ramped up aggression.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:21 am“He told Kelly Loeffler before he landed in Georgia for a final rally on Monday that if she didn’t back the Electoral College challenges, he would ‘do a number on her’ from the stage, according to a source familiar with the events.
Telling the President to “F Off”, also from the stage, might have helped her more than toadying did. It would at least have felt good.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:23 amAnd somewhere, Cori Bush is saying Edwards stole that move from a proud black man (Ozzie Smith).
urbanleftbehind (3baf6e) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:23 amfelipe (630e0b) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:55 am
You do realize that there is a difference between fiction and reality? Do you also realize that being able to find a work of fiction that was designed to tell a certain story doesn’t get you very far in the real world? Living your life by the Jedi code and making real world decisions based on the fictional politics in a galaxy far away isn’t a good plan.
Now, you say I’m agreeing with him by mocking him because he’s also trying to mock an argument I think has some merit? I’m really not sure how that works. Do you think we actually do have space wizards and a planet destroying space laser?
His comment can be seen as humorous satire and I can play along. I said his analogy doesn’t hold (that means I don’t agree with it) and I could have played along more by saying RotJ just led to the rise of the First Order and a corrupt government of the New Republic. But thinking it has any value in making real world decisions is another thing entirely. His mockery is a fun diversion but it doesn’t prove anything and there’s nothing to agree with in any real sense.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:26 amIMO, tech giants like Apple and Google are going too far.
It’s actually Amazon, who, through AWS, controls a great deal of what we call the Internet. AWS and Google ARE “the Cloud.” This means that any app, platform or software that wishes to interact with resources on the Cloud must have approval (or at least not disapproval) from one or both of those companies. Since most websites are now cloud-based, as is most email, one is pretty much restricted to 2000-era technology if you have to go without.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:29 amBTW, who did PP piss off lately? This site is behaving like it’s under DDoS attack. Sloooow.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:32 amAs Donald Trump is driven from the White House, he should find no safe harbor in golf
……..
Two of the sport’s most iconic venues have become untouchable, at least for as long as his name remains above the door. The ‘Blue Monster’ course at Miami’s Doral Resort, which Trump bought in 2012, was home to a PGA Tour event for more than 50 years until the toxicity of his 2016 presidential campaign forced the Tour to relocate the tournament to Mexico City. Turnberry, on Scotland’s Ayrshire coast, is one of the finest venues on the Open Championship rota and has produced some of the most memorable finishes of the last 40-odd years. But the Open has stayed away since he bought it in 2014, and will likely do so for as long as he keeps it out of reach of the bailiffs.
……..His Bedminster course is scheduled to host the 2022 PGA Championship, a fact that now has the PGA of America bunkered down under sustained criticism for a decision made in 2014…….
The odds that ’22’s PGA Championship will happen as scheduled in New Jersey are about as good as the chances of you or I winning it. Seth Waugh, the PGA of America’s CEO, was a banker and has an alert eye for high-risk exposure. He knows that Trumpism is likely to be an equally incendiary force in the ’22 midterm elections and that any affiliation is poisonous. Waugh will be forced to move the event and face down a small but vocal faction of his membership who remain true believers. Moving its major from Trump National has been debated internally at the PGA for more than two years, but executives have been reluctant to antagonize a famously vindictive man who controls the Internal Revenue Service. Such concerns melt away in 10 days, if not sooner.
Reputations too have been left bruised in the eyes of many golf fans. Like those of Jack Nicklaus and Nancy Lopez, both of whom have long been celebrated for their character and rectitude. Both supported Trump in the waning days of the election campaign, despite clear signs he would not accept any result he didn’t like. ……… In the aftermath of Wednesday’s murderous riot in Washington, D.C., Lopez at least tweeted that she disagreed with Trump and was rooting for the country to unite under President Biden. Jack has remained silent as a sphinx.
Arguably even more sullied are the reputations of Gary Player and Annika Sorenstam, who attended the White House to receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom from the man who just one day earlier had incited the mob that killed a police officer. In an ideal world, the accomplishments for which Player and Sorenstam were being recognized with one of the nation’s highest civilian honors could be viewed independently of the administration conferring the honor, but like so many other norms that standard has been laid waste by Trump. Neither Player nor Sorenstam released photos from the ceremony. At least the third professional golfer “honored,” Babe Zaharias, doesn’t have to live with the shame, having died more than 60 years ago.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:36 am………
This is provided without comment.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:38 am1. Yes, that’s right.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:42 am2. That’s honest of you. I don’t fault you for that.
3. What a silly thing to say.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:32 am I have noticed this, too.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:48 amAn insuurection happened before in the United Sates I think he’s trying to argue this precedent means it could succeed on the second try)
This process eventually tested the 1875 Civil Rights Act in the Supreme Court, and it was struck down in the execrable United States vs Cruikshank decision which, among other things prevented the federal government from prosecuting lynchings or any other state action against freedmen.
Summary from Oyez:
It’s amazing how many times when Constitutional protections are bypassed by private action, arguably at the behest or aligned with the will of the State, that they become meaningless.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:48 am*any other intra-state action against freedmen.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:49 amIrrelevant Buchananites may not like him, but more French on last Wednesday’s Christian insurrection. Yes, Christian insurrection.
Apologies for the long excerpt. This is why I’ve had trouble with folks who argue that the choice is between Trump and Venezuelan socialism. It’s ridiculous and stupid hyperbole, used to excuse away Trump’s worst behavior and bad decisions. I hate my party, and I’m less than enamored with many fellow Christ followers for swallowing this president’s lies.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:49 am“Never be reasonable when dealing with unreasonable people.” — nk
Impeach, prosecute, execute!
nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:51 amSammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:12 am
While we’re deciding whether and how to punish insurrectionists we might want to consider exactly who is in that group.
Taking your example from 1874 would that have been the leaders, all of the White League who participated, all members of the White League, or everyone in the surrounding area who were capable of resisting but didn’t because they “may” have been sympathetic?
If you think this is hyperbole take some time to listen to the left. Unless more people get their emotions in check and we regain some sanity there will be more violence.
At this point there isn’t much needed for all bets to be off. We may have already passed that point. There’s a better than even chance that the next step is an assignation. That could go either way with someone like Cruz, AOC, or someone else.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:52 amYou really think Trump’s schnitzel-slurpers will “unite” with the “cucks” who look to appease them? You don’t cuddle up to a rattlesnake. You don’t even leave it lying around after you think you’ve killed it. You chop off the head with a shovel, dig a hole, and bury it.
nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:54 amI have sometimes complained about media bias, and nodded in agreement when right-want talk-radio people responded to complaints about their own bias by saying “We’re not pretending to be impartial, but those guys are! So there.” Yet they claimed to be purveying truths hidden by the MSM.
It’s possible for someone with an open bias to expose facts that people claiming to be objective reporters have ignored. But it’s a big leap from there to the view that the MSM routinely lie about things, and that the “we’re not pretending to be impartial” crowd are more trustworthy sources of information than journalists who at least have a principle of reporting facts impartially.
A lot of people believe that information is trustworthy if it confirms what they were predisposed to believe, and that they don’t need to weigh it against information from other sources. I have certainly been guilty of sticking to the easiest path too much of the time. What shook me out of that complacency was observing how people I had thought reasonably credible could shift so radically and sometimes abruptly in their expressed view of Trump (or be so patently wrong about him in the first place). They began insisting, in effect, that judging Trump on the basis of his own words and actions was a form of lying about Trump (without ever admitting it meant they had previously been lying about Trump).
To some extent, they were saying “this policy is good, and that worked out fine, so therefore all the naysayers were wrong.” That was a weighing of new information, but it came with a denial of other readily available information. There was never a real reckoning with obvious character issues — just a radical shift of bias, requiring the denial of things that are abundantly clear to me and millions of others.
Many people today have chosen to weigh media credibility on the standard of “Does it make Trump look good?” A reporter on Fox News who doesn’t consistently flatter Trump will inevitably be accused of dishonesty and treachery.
There may be “good reason” to be skeptical of the MSM at times, but there is no good reason to put more faith in Donald Trump as a standard or a purveyor of truth.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:57 amYou really think Trump’s schnitzel-slurpers will “unite” with the “cee-you-cee-kay-ess” who look to appease them? You don’t cuddle up to a rattlesnake. You don’t even leave it lying around after you think you’ve killed it. You chop off the head with a shovel, dig a hole, and bury it.
nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:57 amI didn’t say or imply that it wasn’t known or knowable before 2015. Rather, it was obvious by 2105, when many people who hadn’t paid much attention to Trump had reason to start paying attentino.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:01 amRadegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:57 am
You make many good points. And I am sure that, one day, most everything you said will be condemned as wrong think. I am fortunate that I am not long for this world. I see the wisdom of the Lord’s limiting man’s lifespan.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:06 amOnly the Lord can fill me with childlike joy. It is snowing all around me! Laugh all you want at this poor, old Texan; I don’t mind, nor do I blame you.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:11 amWhy bury it…nail it to a tree as a warning to any future snakes
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:14 amNow that I have gotten that out of my system, I am off to help provide for the immediate needs of the homeless. Later, people.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:15 amPaul Montagu (77c694) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:49 am
The problem with calling this a lie is that you don’t need to try very far to find plenty of examples of the first part and only a little bit further to find examples of the second.
The game being played here is exactly the same game on both sides but against a different standard. If someone on the right points to statements on the left it’s dismissed as overblown and hyperbolic. Those same people then claim ignoring these statements on the right is enabling and part of the problem. Both sides do the same thing. Maybe both sides should stop? Or maybe deciding to label this as a “Christian” insurrection isn’t really designed to convince the Christians of anything. After all
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:16 amwhat’s a good step toward fascism without a group to otherhow do you solve a problem if you can’t identify the source.Paul: Words Obi Wan never said: “Luke…do not blow up the Death Star…it will divide the galaxy even more…”
Frosty: Yes, a fictional story with space wizards and tech that can destroy planets is a good basis for real decisions.
You’re kidding right? There is a moral to the story….or would you have been sitting there going “mustard seed, really Jesus!?”
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:20 am242. In the last couple of weeks, there was a caller on Hannity and Rush who called himself “Dave the Liberal.” He admitted to seething hatred of conservatism, as well as a desire to see it stamped out “…at any and all costs.” While he didn’t expressly call for the death of conservative individuals, it seemed to me like the prospect didn’t (or wouldn’t) bother him that much, to have potentially lethal violence committed in his own name.
And while I’m at it providing the counter-examples, let me state that I also believe the choice between Trump and socialism is a false dichotomy. After all, we had 4 years of Trump and look where we are now! Who’s to say that this drama wouldn’t have played out four years later had Trump somehow managed to get his second term?
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:22 amnk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:57 am
Who exactly are these
There’s no need to hide behind euphemisms.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:26 am245. I call them Trump Humpers, Frosty. I think it’s got a nice ring to it. As always, YMMV.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:28 amPaul Montagu,
We have been repeatedly told here at this site that not only is David French irrelevant, but so too is Mitt Romney. Please make note of that.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:37 am247. All too often, commenters at many sites seem to confuse the concepts of “irrelevant,” and “wrong.” Being wrong does not automatically make a person irrelevant, just as being correct does not necessarily make a person relevant.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:39 amThree major corporations say they will stop donating to members of Congress who tried to overturn the election
……[E]ight Senators — Tommy Tuberville (R-AL), Rick Scott (R-FL), Roger Marshall (R-KS), John Kennedy (R-LA), Cindy Hyde-Smith (R-MS), Josh Hawley (R-MO), Ted Cruz (R-TX), and Cynthia Lummis (R-WY) — followed through with their objections when the Senate reconvened after order was restored.
……
Popular Information contacted 144 corporations that, through their corporate PACs, donated to one or more of these eight Senators in the 2020 election cycle. Popular Information asked if they would continue to support these Senators in the future. In response, three major companies said they would stop donating to any member of Congress who objected to the certification of the Electoral College vote.
……
During the 2020 cycle, (Blue Cross Blue Shield Association’s) BLUEPAC donated to three Senators who objected to the Electoral College vote — $10,000 to Tuberville, $1,000 to Marshall, and $500 to Hawley.
In a statement to Popular Information, Blue Cross Blue Shield Association President and CEO Kim Keck said it was suspending all support to the 147 Republicans who voted “to subvert the results of November’s election by challenging Electoral College results.”
……..
During the 2020 cycle, Marriott’s PAC donated $1000 to Hawley’s campaign and another $1,000 to Hawley’s leadership PAC.
Marriott told Popular Information that it will stop donating to all the members who voted against certification. “We have taken the destructive events at the Capitol to undermine a legitimate and fair election into consideration and will be pausing political giving from our Political Action Committee to those who voted against certification of the election,” a spokesperson said. The company did not indicate when, if ever, it would resume supporting those 147 Republicans.
……..
During the 2020 cycle, Commerce Bancshares PAC donated $2,500 to Marshall.
Commerce Bancshares told Popular Information that it has “suspended all support for officials who have impeded the peaceful transfer of power.”
……
A fourth company, Boston Scientific, told Popular Information that it was suspending all its PAC activity “in light of recent events” pending a review.
……
Several companies issued statements to Popular Information that were critical of the Republicans who objected to the Electoral College vote and said their actions would play a factor in future decisions about political giving. These companies stopped short, however, of saying they would stop contributing to the Republican objectors.
……..
Bank of America’s PAC donated $5,000 to Marshall.
……..
Berkshire Hathaway Energy’s PAC donated $2,500 to Marshall.
……..
Ford’s PAC donated $15,500 to four Senators — $7,000 to Marshall, $5,000 to Hyde-Smith, $2,500 to Lummis, and $1,000 to Hawley.
……..
AT&T’s PAC donated $33,000 to five Senators — $15,000 to Cruz, $10,000 to Marshall, $4,000 to Kennedy, $2,000 to Hawley, and $2,000 to Scott.
……..
CVS Health’s PAC donated $1,000 to Hawley.
…….
ExxonMobil’s PAC was the second largest contributor to the eight Senators. The company’s PAC donated a total of $38,625 to five Senators — $10,625 to Hyde-Smith, $10,000 to Marshall, $10,000 to Lummis, $3,000 to Kennedy, and $5,000 to Tuberville.
………
FedEx’s PAC donated $20,500 to four Senators — $10,000 to Marshall, $6,000 to Cruz, $2,500 to Lummis, and $2,000 to Hawley.
…….
Amgen’s PAC donated $7,500 to two Senators — $5,000 to Lummis and $2,500 to Marshall.
…..
Target’s PAC donated $1,000 to Marshall.
…….
Of the 144 corporations Popular Information contacted, 127 did not respond.
The group that did not respond included the largest corporate contributor to the Republican Senators who objected to the Electoral College count, Comcast/NBCUniversal. According to Popular Information’s analysis, Comcast donated at least $44,500 in the 2020 election cycle to four of the eight Senators who objected to the Election. Hyde-Smith received at least $17,500 from the company…….. It did not respond to Popular Information’s request for comment.
United Parcel Service donated at least $30,500 to five of the eight Senators, including $18,000 to Marshall. …….The company did not respond to Popular Information’s inquiry if it would continue supporting these Senators in the future.
Boeing has also donated at least $28,500 to three of the eight Senators since 2019.
…….
Other major corporate contributors that did not respond include Altria Group which donated at least $32,500 to five of the eight Senators, Lockheed Martin which donated at least $30,500 to five of the eight Senators, and T-Mobile which donated at least $25,500 to seven of the eight Senators.
The following companies did not respond:
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:45 am…….
@10
I concur with frosty and others.
Simon, no need to lurk as I appreciate your insights.
whembly (c30c83) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:46 amAJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:20 am
I thought I was being specific enough with my comment about space wizards. That you’re able to read my comment and conclude that I’m saying you can’t draw any understanding from any story is completely a function of your own cognitive bias.
What sort of reality do you inhabit where you think, oh, I’ve got this guy now because he’s deny the value of a symbolic narrative to elucidate the human condition and I’ll really get this Bible thumping Trumper by using the Bible against him? Did it occur to you at least a little bit that my comment was directed at the specific analogy being made?
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:14 am
Ah, that’s right, it’s a reality where nailing people’s heads to trees is a good plan.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:46 amMissing the point, frosty. Yes, there are examples of lefties who’ve said but the problem is when folks are making invidious overgeneralizations. It’s false statement that all lefties hate you.
Paul Montagu (b928ef) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:52 amRip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:45 am
I’d like to see an end to all of the corporate PACs and legalized bribery but I’m guessing that’s not what you mean right?
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:53 amSo, any bets on whether Madame Speaker goes through with her impeachment threat tomorrow?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:53 amReminder: Make sure you respond/question/quote other commenters by name, not by comment number. As trolls have been actively hitting the site since the debacle at the Capitol, I am deleting them as I see them, and thus the numbering of comments is going to shift and your reference number may not make sense.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:57 am@ Kevin M,
I’m feeling doubtful because if she believes that Trump is as unhinged and as big of a threat as she indicated, then why weren’t they working through the weekend to get this done? It felt like the urgency was in public commentary only, not in practice. But nonetheless, I am hoping that Trump is impeached because it could bar him from running for office again. I’m afraid that if there is no roadblock to him running in 2024, that his MAGA followers would be able to successfully give him the nomination.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:02 pm“nailing people’s heads to trees is a good plan”
whoooosh….I’ll stop because you’re killing me
“my comment was directed at the specific analogy being made”
Trump may not be de facto the “Evil Empire” but buried in Paul’s snark is that he is pretty evil…in what he is doing to the GOP….and in his impact on civil discourse….and you don’t allow this evil to hang around because it fractures unity….any more than you allow Jim Crow to linger to not hurt white southerners feelings. You end it decisively….in this case with impeachment, removal, and banishment from public office. You obviously don’t see Trump as any where near evil…or maybe that he is the (necessary?) mirror image of what is on the Left…that’s OK….I guess….but make that case rather than questioning the relevancy of space wizards and lasers…
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”…or not enough
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:06 pmScene: January 20th, shortly after noon, split screen TV:
Capitol: Joe Biden, newly sworn in, steps to the podium to begin his Address
Mar-a-lago: Donald Trump, having just completed a mocking rendition of the oath of office, while making faces, listens to the roar of the crowd, his remaining secret service agents are behind him, listening to something on their earthingies.
Biden: “But before I begin, I am informed that Judge Smith has issued a warrant for the arrest of Donald Trump on sedition charges.”
Mira-l-lago: Agents surround Trump, place him in restraints, and drag him off screaming.
Biden: “Now, my Fellow Americans …”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:07 pmWho exactly are these
Trump’s schnitzel-slurpers
There’s no need to hide behind euphemisms.
I promised Dana I would not say “butt-gerbils” on her threads.
nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:13 pmI’ll settle for a Jib-Jab version of the Bolivian raid on Scarface’s estate.
urbanleftbehind (3baf6e) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:15 pm“People took him literally. I never thought I’d see that,” former White House Chief of Staff @MickMulvaney says.
Who could have expected that people who worship Trump would give credence to his words and follow his instructions?
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:18 pm20 corporations, $16 million, and 138 Republicans trying to subvert democracy
……..
…….[M] many of the members who are planning to object to the certification of the vote on Wednesday are generously supported by corporate America. A Popular Information analysis reveals, over the last six years, 20 prominent corporations — including AT&T, Comcast, Deloitte, Amazon, Microsoft, and Pfizer — have donated at least $16 million to the Republican lawmakers seeking to undermine the democratic process.
To undertake this analysis, Popular Information looked at corporate PAC donations to the 13 Senators who have publicly committed to objecting to certified election results. For the House, the group of Republicans who will object is more in flux. But 126 Republican members of the House supported a lawsuit by the State of Texas that asked the Supreme Court to invalidate the certified election results in four states. So there are 138 Republican House members who have already made clear they support disenfranchising millions of voters. (Roger Marshall (R-KS) was a House member who signed onto the lawsuit but is now a Senator.) The final number may be higher.
……
Popular Information reached out to all 20 corporations and asked if they planned to continue financially supporting members of Congress who participated in this effort.
…….[O]ver the last six years, AT&T’s corporate PAC has donated at least $2,053,000 to 130 Republicans who are seeking to throw out certified results from states that supported Biden.
……..
The company did not say whether members of Congress who object to the certification of the Electoral College votes would continue to receive AT&T’s financial support.
…….
…….[O]ver the last six years, Amazon has donated at least $598,000 to 104 Republicans who are seeking to ignore the Electoral College and give Trump another term as president.
……..
Popular Information asked Amazon if it would continue financially supporting members of Congress who are voting to set aside millions of votes. The company did not respond……..
Over the last six years, Microsoft has donated at least $598,000 to 83 Republicans who are planning to ignore Biden’s Electoral College win, according to Popular Information’s analysis.
…….
Popular Information asked Microsoft if it would continue financially supporting members of Congress who are voting to set aside millions of votes. “We weigh a number of factors in making political contribution decisions, and will consider this and other issues in making future contribution decisions,” a Microsoft spokesperson said.
Popular Information looked at a total of twenty major corporations which have donated to the Republicans who are planning to reject the certified results. This chart summarizes our findings:
……..
Pfizer donated at least $610,000 to 74 Republicans.
……..
Boston Scientific donated at least $273,500 to 54 Republicans.
Wells Fargo declined to comment — it donated $321,800 to 58 Republicans. The remaining companies did not respond to a request for comment.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:19 pm>>>>>>>>
Allahpundit:
I guess that’s how the Party of Personal Responsibility does the Law & Order thing.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:21 pmTrumpers say we need to coddle Trump or we’ll be to blame for the reaction from his fanatical base.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:27 pmBut they think it’s totally wrong to suggest that their indulgence of Trump and his violent devotees might in any measure be responsible for how Dems respond.
Frosty @254-
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:45 am
I’d like to see an end to all of the corporate PACs and legalized bribery but I’m guessing that’s not what you mean right?
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:32 pmThere is no meaning behind my posts 250 & 263 beyond information about how corporate America has supported the Insurrectionists in Congress throughout the Trump administration. I have no idea how you drew your conclusion.
The Trump side needs to embrace the concept of a Fall Guy and pick one fast if they want to emerge unscathed
urbanleftbehind (3baf6e) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:33 pmLooks like that “fall guy” might end up being Trump, if his fellow Republicans’ reactions to last week’s debacle are any indication…
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:36 pmBut your counter-example isn’t a counter-example of anything *ahem* relevant. Have you seen anyone here question that both sides have their faction of violent, hateful misanthropes? Do you think anyone here believes antifa are better people or less inclined to criminality than the insurrectionists who attacked the Capital? The relevant distinction is that only one of those factions does their criming at the urging and under the banner of the leader of a major American party, who also happens to be President of the United States.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:38 pmGood point, Dana. They could have impeached him before they counted the EC votes. A lot of Republicans are showing us exactly what they are, exactly how little they care about our country or the safety of our people. This notion of ‘it’s up to Biden to Unite us by not pursuing justice’ is ridiculous. I don’t think much of Pelosi so I’m not surprised she wants to stretch this out, let the GOP beg on Trump’s behalf, even now. It’s like those die hard Trump fans in these comment sections. It’s definitely not a problem for nevertrumpers that they want to show us we were right… except that it’s sad for the country.
They will impeach, there will be a vote after the dems take the Senate. It’s going to be a lot hard for Team R to campaign in two years than they were hoping.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:48 pmPaul Montagu (b928ef) — 1/10/2021 @ 11:52 am
Maybe. Do you think the author of the article undermines his points by himself using false over generalizations? I’ve never heard the church will end because of Biden. It’s always possible “some” people could believe that but it’s not a widespread belief. The same is going on with the argument about Trump and the country. There are versions of beliefs that sound a little like this but aren’t as generalized and don’t help the author as much.
I picked the leftists part of the article because it was the least over generalized example and I didn’t think it required me to read in “all”. Looking back that was probably a mistake. The author of that article probably does want to say this group he’s identified believes not just lies but fundamentally flawed lies that can easily be disproved by finding “some” leftists that don’t hate them. You don’t think some significant percentage of people who voted for Trump believe something so easily disproven as “all” leftists want them dead do you?
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:53 pmAll I’m saying by way of counter-example is, it’s not a “lie” that the left hates you. It’s not only true, but it’s also demonstrably and provably true.
It’s also demonstrably and provably true that, not that many years ago, the Dems had a president who talked about “If they bring a knife…we bring a gun.” Donald Trump doesn’t have a monopoly on incitement. That’s all that I’m saying here. I believe Trump is no less fit for office than I believe Barack Hussein Obama was.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:53 pmLet me clarify a couple of points here, Frosty.
I didn’t vote for Trump at all. Ever. Not in 2016 or 2020.
There are leftists out there who would be okay with the murder of conservatives. Not all. Maybe not even most. But at least one of them had the bawlz to say so on two nationally syndicated radio shows and go on to say that he himself believed he was representative of progressivism.
For my part, as a small-l libertarian, I want to be left alone to go to work, pay my bills, drink my beer, and pursue happiness as our founding fathers intended. Anyone who thinks that any elected official of either major political party is inclined to leave them alone, is going to find out in the coming months and years just how sorely mistaken they are.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:58 pmnk,
Did you know — I just learned it from clicking on this commendable video — that The Governator’s SnapChat ID is ArnoldSchnitzel?
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:01 pmBTW, the Obi Wan and Luke thingie wasn’t mine. Some guy on Twitter said it first, and I laughed.
Paul Montagu (b928ef) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:03 pmThese calls for unity right now–after Trump tacitly backed an insurrection, a domestic terrorist attack, against the center of American democracy–ring completely hollow.
I remember on the Saturday after the election, when the networks called it for Biden, that Biden & Co. called for people to come together and move on. That call for unity was expressly rejected by Trump and all the folks who believed him or were too afraid to publicly contradict his blatant lies about fraud.
And here we are, now that Trump has failed at torching our democracy, folks like Cruz, who participated in Trump’s fascism by objecting to Congress’ certification, is calling for unity? This is the absolute worst of cynical acts.
No, Trump needs to pay, the members of Congress who backed his fascism need to pay a price. I’ll take unity if the book is thrown at Trump and if there’s some real repentance from those Republicans who were complicit. I know we won’t see any from Cruz or Hawley, but maybe there’s a chance at redemption for the rest.
Gryph, in all fairness the context of “If they bring a knife…we bring a gun” was not about Obama inciting people to violence, but about the impending ugliness of the general election with McCain. It was pledge to his supporters to fight back. In light of school shootings and what-not, it’s probably not the best analogy for the squeemish…..but libs didn’t attack McCain’s motorcade as a result. Trump’s daliance with the hard right and white nationalists is a bit more disturbing.
I may have disagreed with Obama on most policy…and thought him underprepared for the office….but I would never consider him unfit….and thus fitting of removal. On what basis? Fast and Furious? Benghazi? The Beer summit?
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:09 pmJust a friendly reminder, amigos…
If Trump is accused of a crime, he will have to stand trial. In that trial, as was the case in accusations of election fraud, the burden of proof will be on the accusers. Wouldn’t it be a sunofa-you-know-what if charges against Trump were dismissed on technical grounds before the evidence was even considered? Just sayin…
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:09 pmI suppose if you believe that the basis of Fast and Furious or the Benghazi debacle was a mere difference-of-opinion as regards policy, then no, he was not unfit. I see things from a fundamentally different point-of-view (h/t Obi-Wan Kenobi). I start from the assumption that all elected officials are dishonest hacks regardless of party affiliation. Trump just happened to have his personal shortcomings and dishonesty (but I repeat myself) on display for the world to see while he was doing real estate development in the 1980s.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:13 pmSF: Now Trump is looking for something to do against Twitter and the other social media companies.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:13 am
He’s going to make a speech about it tomorrow.
And another speech about something on Tuesday.
And he has scheduled a visit to the border.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:13 pm262. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:18 pm
He told tem to assemble peacefully. He didn;t tell them to storm the capital.
On the other hand he told them that Nike Pence was not doing the right thing. and when people said he should he hanged, he did nothing. He never called to inquire about his well being and those of Mike Pence’s family members, who were there in the Capitol with him and the two haven’t spoken since.
He never said not to hang Mike Pence.. Bit he never said to do it, either.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:20 pm@272-Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:53 pm
It’s also demonstrably and provably true that, not that many years ago, the Dems had a president who talked about “If they bring a knife…we bring a gun.”
Oh come on! Don’t you he was quoting “The Untouchables”?
Next you will be accusing Obama of plagiarism.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:22 pmIf Congress can’t impeach Trump quickly, they should do it right:
Dana (cc9481) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:23 pmYou know that old saying about putting enough monkeys in a large enough room with enough typewriters so that one of them must, of necessity, type the complete works of Shakespeare?
I’m sure that whatever words Trump uses to “incite” his supporters, they could probably be credited to someone else at some point in time as well. That is completely beside the point.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:25 pmDana (cc9481) — 1/10/2021 @ 12:02 pm
Senator Toomey indicated he didn’t think so, because he apparently thought a person couldn’t be impeached after he left office or he thought it was a question.
Or prevent any strong competitor from running.
Barack Obama thought forcing Mike Flynn to retire would ensure he never wold obtain a position in the U.S. government again.
So he didn’t pursue an investigation to determine if he had become a Russian spy.
How did that work out?
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:26 pmWashington D.C. mayor Muriel Bowser wanted the National Guard to come there unarmed. They didn’t want to do that.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:28 pmWhat is even the ****ing point of calling on the military and asking them to come unarmed?!
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:29 pm@272 Are you seriously saying you consider someone riffing off an old quote in a speech to a small group of donors to be the same as someone telling a riled up crowd of people to go down to the Capitol and fight?
@275 In this case, unity, IMO, is uniting to support the American value of a peaceful transition of power, not uniting to forget that a mass of bullysticks doesn’t value that and that some of the people who want “unity” still don’t value that.
@277 The idea that all the Trump election cases were dismissed on a technical basis is a myth. There were 62 cases, some of which were dismissed on a technical basis, some of which were dismissed on merit, some of which the supreme court decided that the state supreme court was the proper venue to decide on election law and state constitutions, so they declined to hear them. And in some of the judge stated that even though they were dismissing on a technical bases, they still would’ve dismissed on merit due to the poor or lack of evidence brought.
@283. Obama used a famous quote. Everyone knows that quote.
Nic (896fdf) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:30 pmHow do you think “It was a famous quote that everyone knows” would hold up as a defense in a court of law? I personally don’t believe that Trump said anything that would legally be considered an incitement to violence, but how well known the words are is a completely irrelevant question in deciding whether that’s the case.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:34 pmExcept it is a lie that “the left” hates you. There are people on the left who hate, and people on the left who don’t, just as there are people on the right who hate and people on the right who don’t. If you’re aware of evidence that either side’s hateful faction is more numerous or prevalent than the other’s, please show it.
I see AJ, Rip and nic have already made this point, but if your first assertion was garden variety BS, this one is weapons-grade delusional BS. No honest, sane person believes Obama was calling for violence, any more than honest sane people believed Sarah Palin was endorsing violence with her cross-hairs graphic. Honest, sane people understand the difference between violent metaphors for civilized policy disputes and Trump’s long, sordid history of urging, apologizing for and expressing affectionate solidarity with perpetrators of actual violence.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:43 pmYou’re absolutely right. I don’t believe Obama was calling for violence. I don’t believe Trump was, either. And here we are.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:44 pmFBI, NYPD told Capitol Police about possibility of violence before riot, senior officials say
FBI and the New York Police Department passed information to the Capitol Police about the possibility of violence during the Jan. 6 protests against certification of the presidential election, and the FBI even visited more than a dozen extremists already under investigation to urge them not to travel to Washington, senior law enforcement officials told NBC News.
Those previously unreported details undercut the assertion by a top FBI official this week that officials had no indication violence was a possibility, and add to questions of what intelligence authorities had reviewed prior to the Capitol riot that led to the death of an officer and four others, including a rioter who was shot and killed by police.
…….
As NBC News has reported, a digital flyer made public on Instagram and Facebook in December referred to what would happen as: “Operation Occupy the Capitol.”
On the fringe message board 8kun, which is popular with QAnon followers, users talked for weeks about a siege of the Capitol.
“You can go to Washington on Jan 6 and help storm the Capitol,” said one 8kun user a day before the siege. “As many Patriots as can be. We will storm the government buildings, kill cops, kill security guards, kill federal employees and agents, and demand a recount.”
……
How could the FBI and other agencies have missed all that? It turns out they didn’t, officials tell NBC News.
“Prior to this event, the FBI obtained credible and actionable information about individuals who were planning on traveling to the protests who expressed a desire to engage in violence,” the senior FBI official told NBC News. “The FBI was able to discourage those individuals from traveling to D.C.”
The official added that “the FBI and our federal, state and local partners collected and shared available intelligence in preparation for the various planned events. The FBI was prepared to adapt as needed to fluid events on the ground, including having rapid response teams in reserve. Throughout most of the day the crowd was peaceful and non-confrontational.”
“However, when it became clear that some individuals were surging onto the Capitol grounds and entering the buildings, the U.S. Capitol Police requested assistance. Within 50 minutes of that request, three FBI tactical teams were on-scene to gain control of the area and offer protection to congressional members and staff. Over the course of the evening, the FBI presence ultimately grew to over 150 agents and other personnel.”
……..
The NYPD, which has the most robust intelligence collection and analytical arm of any local police agency in the country, sent law enforcement agencies across the country — including the Capitol Police — an intelligence packet describing threats and violent rhetoric on social media in the weeks and days leading up to the Jan. 6 rally, multiple senior law enforcement officials told NBC News.
The officials say the Capitol Police were given a specific and separate intelligence report describing threats of violence and extremist rhetoric that appeared on social media in connection with the rally.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:45 pm…….
It wasn’t just police agencies that issued warnings. A private intelligence report issued in December, obtained by NBC News, noted that “the ‘million-MAGA march’ in Washington DC on 6 January is the next major flashpoint…the mass event (which will be held in the National Mall and outside the Capitol) is likely to spark street violence, some of which may be lethal, between Antifa and Trump supporters or far-right groups.”
……..
Capitol rioter, 30, pictured carrying zip-ties is revealed to be Nashville bartender who stormed Congress with his MOM – and was identified by his VERY specific paramilitary clothing
Eric Munchel, 30, has been named as the man pictured in the Senate press gallery with a bundle of flex-cuffs, heavy duty restraints used by law enforcement in mass arrests on Wednesday.
He told The Times of London: ‘We wanted to show that we’re willing to rise up, band together and fight if necessary. Same as our forefathers, who established this country in 1776. It was a kind of flexing of muscles.’
His mom, Lisa Eisenhart, 57, said: ‘The left has everything: the media, organisations, the government. We have to organize if we’re going to fight back and be heard.’
The nurse, who wore a bullet proof vest like her son, added: ‘This country was founded on revolution. If they’re going to take every legitimate means from us, and we can’t even express ourselves on the internet, we won’t even be able to speak freely, what is America for?
‘I’d rather die as a 57-year-old woman than live under oppression. I’d rather die and would rather fight.’
The pair are said to have driven from Nashville, Tennessee for the protest.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:51 pm…….
Nic,
Dana (cc9481) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:54 pm255.So, any bets on whether Madame Speaker goes through with her impeachment threat tomorrow?
Yep. She will. Because it’s about THEM. Not US. She’s as unhinged as Trump when it comes to ego-driven, petty vindictiveness. Somebody messed with her mail, her podium and her office name plate. It’s always about THEM. Always… not Americans,first.
They’ve learned nothing from Buchanan’s pitchforkers on the march. nd they’re not going to stop nor be deterred by Big Tech social media blockades.
Their only immediate priority now is to get the Covid vaccine out and in the arms of citizens and $2000 into the pockets of struggling Americans to get throug his time locked down at home, unable to get to jobs and unlike Nancy and her colleagues, bring home paychecks.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:56 pm@288 I have to say that my first question to a rich donor who said that he brought a gun to a knife fight because Obama told him to would be “why were you at a knife fight?”
Also, how famous a quote is is, in fact, relevant. If something is a well known and commonly used metaphor, it is much harder to pretend that one has taken it literally than if someone claims they were using a very obscure quote or a metaphor no one has ever heard before.
I do think it would be hard to convict Trump on his words alone, but if it can be shown there was something hinky in either the security preparation or the dispersal of reinforcements, that could make motivation much clearer.
Nic (896fdf) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:58 pmTo all those concerned about Trump’s finger on the button, or that he’ll be young enough to run again in four years, you should let Nancy know that she needs to make sure Trump doesn’t get on AF1 with a bunch of secrets and fly off to a country w/o extradition to set up a government in exile.
Oh, snap, even better fanfic, make sure he doesn’t seek asylum in Russia after looting all of the Roswell secrets.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:07 pm@Grpyph@290 I think Trump walks a knife’s edge on violence. He has repeatedly walked right up to the edge and not gone over, but he has also repeatedly encouraged small-scale violence. This time, his irresponsible rhetoric may have tipped the crowd a little farther over into violence that he exactly intended, but I do think he very much intended them either to walk right up to the line of violence and/or to get into at least a bit of push/shove with the Capitol Police.
@Dana@293 Sorry, I forgot. I will do better.
Nic (896fdf) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:08 pmAnd yet, while you never see an antifa thug in a Biden2020 hat, the Capital insurrectionists were all* festooned in Trump garb and paraphernalia. They seem to be under the impression they’re Trump’s shock troops, loyally doing his bidding. Where do you suppose they got that idea?
(*When I say “all,” obviously I’m being hyperbolic. Some opted for the “Camp Auschwitz” fashion statement.)
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:10 pmI think the House should pursue impeachment while it’s fresh, ASAP, and we really don’t what this unhinged man-baby might do in the next ten days.
By the way, the Daily Mail just identified the zip-tie guy, who was photographed with his mother.
Classic. Part of me is sympathetic, for them falling victim to Trump’s lies, while another part of me wants to see them in jail, for swallowing Trump’s lies.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:16 pmHow about assassinating US citizens without due process?
Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:22 pmThousands of law school alumni and students push for disbarment of Sens. Hawley and Cruz
……
[A]lumni and students of the law schools that the men attended — Cruz is a graduate of Harvard Law School and Hawley of Yale Law School — and others have signed a petition in recent days urging the Texas, Missouri and Washington bars to “immediately begin disbarment proceedings” against the two senators.
One petition had more than 3,100 signatures by Sunday morning….. organized by students and alumni of Yale Law School.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:23 pm……..
Yes, they sure do a good job of keeping their political allegiances mum.
Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:24 pmThe story of Seattle police officers being investigated for storming the Capitol Building is not as surprising as you’d think. Montagu Jr. has been to a few protests downtown, and he mentioned that most of the cops on the force are hardcore Trump supporters, even in Seattle.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:25 pmI hope you’re not talking about al-Awlaki?! If so, which other terrorists would you eulogize by removing the President?
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:30 pmNic (896fdf) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:30 pm
I don’t think the problem is that Trump didn’t use a famous enough quote. What if he had made the exact same “knife/gun” quote? The issue is the context, the consequences, and the relationship between them.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:30 pm@frosty@305 If he had, I think (depending on context) it would be easier for Trump to argue that he was using it as a metaphor and didn’t mean it literally and everyone should’ve known that.
Nic (896fdf) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:32 pmGood by me. If they bring Jim Comey in to beat a confession out of Trump, I’ll demand that Trump be released, however guilty he is. Unlike Trump, I know that the rule of law requires consistent application of neutral principles, irrespective of my personal prejudices.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:33 pmHoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:22 pm
Based on some of the comments I’ve seen recently I suspect the answer you’ll get is some version of “a good start”.
I mentioned this the other day, so sorry for the repeat, but it’s all about law and order now. Due process can slow that down and rule of law can be an outright obstacle.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:40 pmAt least the Arizona GOP has its priorities in order.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:42 pmThe intersection of Fall Guy and Jeffrey Epstein’s official cause of death:
https://www.businessinsider.com/second-capitol-police-officer-dies-howard-liebengood-senate-2021-1
urbanleftbehind (3baf6e) — 1/10/2021 @ 3:31 pmYep, censuring Cindy McCain over her not accepting Trump’s insults is surely the best use of their time and money (actually, it might be. At least they aren’t spending it on overthrowing the federal government, then.)
Nic (896fdf) — 1/10/2021 @ 3:32 pmStripe Stops Processing Payments for Trump Campaign Website
…….
The financial-technology company handles card payments for millions of online businesses and e-commerce platforms, including Mr. Trump’s campaign website and online fundraising apparatus. Stripe is cutting off the president’s campaign account for violating its policies against encouraging violence, the people said.
Stripe asks users to agree that they won’t accept payments for “high risk” activities, including for any business or organization that “engages in, encourages, promotes or celebrates unlawful violence or physical harm to persons or property,” according to its website.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 3:34 pm…….
“A boy’s best friend is his mother.” — Norman Bates
nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 3:35 pmThe numbers on expectations for future violence aren’t good.
I keep hearing a lot of tough talk about teaching “these people” a lesson to keep them in line. If you’re going down that road at least do it with your eyes open. The trouble you’re having communicating with that particular family member or friend isn’t going to improve after they’ve been taught a lesson.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 3:39 pmAnother unity tweet…
Paul Montagu (bc5001) — 1/10/2021 @ 3:40 pm@Sammy: He told tem to assemble peacefully. He didn;t tell them to storm the capital.
He actually told them to “march”: “I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.”
He used the word “peacefully” once in a long diatribe that also included things like this:
* “Because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong.”
* “When you catch somebody in a fraud, you are allowed to go by very different rules.”
* “It’s a dirty business. We have a lot of bad people out there.”
* “we fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell you’re not going to have a country anymore.”
So was the takeaway likely to have been “assemble peacefully,” or was it “fight like hell”? Are we supposed to take the “peacefully” part literally, but say he didn’t really mean it when he said “fight like hell”?
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 3:58 pmPaul, dont give the anti-lockdowners any ideas…that’s probably a step or 2 behind what a few are thinking.
But actually, I wish Gryph was right about anti-lockdown resistance supplanting Trump revanchism, but there doesnt seem to be that Venn slice of left-of-center or Bernie bro hospitality/service worker willing to give that more noble cause cover from being a sibling to Capital chaos.
urbanleftbehind (3baf6e) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:00 pmnk, fair being fair, tell that to the boy rifleman up north.
urbanleftbehind (3baf6e) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:02 pm@313. nk:
“You see, this is my life! It always will be! There’s nothing else! Just us, the cameras, and those wonderful people out there in the dark!” – Speaker of the House Norma Desmond
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:07 pmPaul Montagu (bc5001) — 1/10/2021 @ 3:40 pm
Continuing with your analogy, if it’s limited to the grandson then fine. We’ll see. I think the analogy is a gross oversimplification that sounds clever but is ignoring what’s actually playing out. After the cops arrest the grandchild’s parents and make sure his teachers and baseball coach are fired for failing to teach their child not to push people down stairs or recognize the grandchild’s obvious psychological flaws maybe everyone will have learned a lesson.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:08 pmParler CEO Says Service Dropped By “Every Vendor” And Could End His Business
“They all work together to make sure at the same time we would lose access to not only our apps, but they’re actually shutting all of our servers off tonight, off the internet,” (Parler CEO John Matze) said. “They made an attempt to not only kill the app, but to actually destroy the entire company. And it’s not just these three companies. Every vendor from text message services to email providers to our lawyers all ditched us too on the same day.”
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:16 pm………
He added: “We’re going to try our best to get back online as quickly as possible. But we’re having a lot of trouble because every vendor we talk to says they won’t work with us. Because if Apple doesn’t approve and Google doesn’t approve, they won’t.”
Tim Alberta:
When Elizabeth Neumann left DHS, she said that Trump was “throwing fuel on the fire” of domestic right-wing extremism:
Trump told people they’re “not going to have a country anymore” if they don’t “fight like hell” to keep him in power. For many of them, one lost battle doesn’t mean the end of the war.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:16 pmYeah, those people are not the kind who can be taught a lesson. Deterrence does not work with them.
Motive, means, opportunity. The perpetually aggrieved, whether Drumpfy McSchnitzelface’s, Antifa’s, or BLM’s, will always have a motive. We need to limit their means and opportunity.
nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:19 pm@309
tla (34ebeb) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:19 pmSurreal given that the censure goes out of it’s way to defame Senator McCain, a popular AZ Republican figure. They could just criticize Cindy McCain and leave Senator McCain out of it, but they feel the need to defend Trump’s attacks on John McCain.
DCSCA-
You do realize my reference to Norma Desmond was to Donald Trump, right? See post 51:
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:20 pmTrump’s Legacy
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:27 pm316. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 3:58 pm
Yes, because fight has many different meanings.
Here is an article abut Obama using that metaphor:
https://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/06/14/obama-if-they-bring-a-knife-to-the-fight-we-bring-a-gun
And unions frequently “fight”
Radegunda: He actually told them to “march”:
He later changed that to “walk” In fact actually he said “walk” first. He said “walk” six times and “march” once, Four times he used “walk before “march” and two times afterwards.
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6
Then, at the end, it was back to “walk.”
Maybe he didn’t like the militaristic implications of march.
Trump: “When you catch somebody in a fraud, you are allowed to go by very different rules.”
Refers to what he wanted Mike Pence to do. Not physical violence.
“It’s a dirty business. We have a lot of bad people out there.”
Referring to politics and to the other party! Not that he wanted them to do bad things.
There were all kinds of warnings. Are we supposed to believe, that, no, there weren’t warnings, nothing was going to happen, until Trump incited them that morning?
Now some people in the crowd thought they were following Trump’s orders and were surprised Trump had gone AWOL.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/capitol-rioters.html
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:34 pmAlabama Republican deletes Twitter account after mocking Capitol attack arrests
In a tweet sent Saturday, Moore belittled the furor over the U.S. Capitol attack, where supporters of President Trump ransacked the Capitol, and killed a U.S. Capitol Police officer.
“Wow we have more arrests for stealing a podium on January 6th than we do for stealing an election on November 3rd!” Moore wrote, referring the arrest of a Florida man who looted a lectern from the office of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
In the same tweet, Moore claimed there was demonstrative evidence of election fraud which was being ignored in Atlanta, Philadelphia, and Detroit, all three cities with large African-American populations.
…….
In a second tweet from Saturday – which Moore deleted even before getting rid of his personal Twitter account – Moore raised racial questions related to the police shooting death of a woman who was trying to break into an area just off the House floor, where lawmakers were sheltering from the Wednesday attack by Trump supporters.
“I Understand it was a black police officer that shot the white female veteran,” Moore wrote, referring to the former Air Force veteran who was killed by police.
“You know that doesn’t fit the narrative,” Moore added.
……….
Twitter should only allow adults to use the service.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:41 pmfrosty, are you arguing an American in Yemen has the same due process rights (like being arrested, Mirandized, and presented for civilian trial) as an American say in Miami where it is reasonable to detain and try them….and that you are deprived of due process when the commander-in-chief judges by good faith evidence that you have joined and aided the enemy and has you taken out? This is the process you get in those circumstances. In the AUMF, Congress left it to the president to decide who is the enemy and who can be killed by drone. If you don’t like the AUMF, fine, get the votes to repeal it. I’m just growing tired of internet lawyers claiming that this makes Obama unfit to serve….and he should have been impeached and removed…..even though no court has declared any action illegal and no majority in Congress has ever pushed the matter. But of course when you have to choose between a liberal President and a terrorist enabler….we know where that uncertaity falls, right?
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:43 pmI lik the way Chris Wallce described Trump’s role in his introduction today on Fox News Sunday:
https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/house-vote-on-trump-impeachment-will-happen-this-week-rep-clyburn
That’s all he said.
And the New York Times article I cited about says exhorted the crowd to march to the Capitol to pressure lawmakers.
Jim Clyburn has a marked office, and an umarked office and he and his staff usually work out of the unmarked office.
The mob went to his unmarked office and left his marked office alone. That sounds like the insurrectionists had done a lot of research and planning and were not incited by anything Trump said that day.
Note by the way, that the New York Times says that the crowd at Ellipse was about 8,000 people and Trump said 250,000 people (and Ashli Babbitt said 2 or 3 million I think.)
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:55 pmThere is a video that has a number of scenes of Trump people partying edited together.
In one scene Donald Trump Jr says it is T minus 20 seconds.
He’s referring to Donald Trump beginning to speak, not the breach of the Capitol.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:12 pm@ Sammy — “If they bring a knife, we bring a gun” was obviously metaphorical, unless Obama was literally expecting his political opponents to threaten them with knives, in which case responding with guns would not be out of order.
Trump encouraging his supporters to beat up people who heckled him was a case of telling his fans to answer words with punches. And I have seen Trump supporters do exactly that on video.
Trump’s penchant for using the language of physical domination, and for praising violent coercion, goes beyond the ordinary in politics. And he is speaking — as he surely knows — to people who like to boast that they can beat the c**p out of liberal pantywaists, and that they’re the ones who have guns.
In that particular speech, the one word “peacefully” doesn’t cancel out the message that listeners would likely take from “fight like hell” and the warning that they wouldn’t have a country anymore if they didn’t. If “fight like hell” was only metaphorical, then why should “peacefully” get much weight?
At first, he was joyful about the breaching of the barriers, and puzzled that not everyone saw it the same way. Then he delayed in authorizing NG reinforcements when people in Congress were begging for help. It’s true he was MIA: he waited far too long in doing or saying anything to mitigate the danger. Then he finally read a prepared statement so robotically that many Trumpers thought it must be a deep fake.
And then he regretted having read that statement. Because it was totally insincere.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:14 pmAJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/10/2021 @ 4:43 pm
Fair enough. I’m growing tired of people reading the argument they want to make into my comments. I didn’t say BO was unfit and should be impeached. That’s a series of connections you’ve made. You put a lot of words into your comment arguing with someone else or a figment of your imagination.
You’ve essentially agreed with what I actually said. The drone targets don’t get “normal” due process because it’s not convenient. Another process was put in place that has been determined to be legal but, as you said, it’s not the same due process a person in Miami would get.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:14 pm@Sammy — That’s all he said.
Actually, that is very far from “all he said” in that long speech.
If he couldn’t have anticipated how a crowd of angry fanatics would respond to words like “fight like hell” with “strength” or they wouldn’t have a country anymore, then he’s a very stupid man.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:20 pmHoi Polloi @300-
How about assassinating US citizens without due process?
Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/10/2021 @ 2:22 pm
Not sure who are talking about. Abdulrahman al-Awlaki was collateral damage in the death of Ibrahim Muhammad Salih al-Banna, a leader of Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. A classic instance of being “in the wrong place at the wrong time.” Trump did the same thing when ordered a commando raid in Yemen that killed Nawar al-Awlaki (who was also a U.S. citizen), the eight year old daughter of Anwar al-Awlaki, the American propagandist and ideologue for Al-Qaeda, who was the target.
Given the lawlessness of Yemen, there was no opportunity for an arrest and trial. Al-Awlaki was a traitor, who made his bed with the enemy. I have no problem or tears for them. We are still at war with Al-Qaeda.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:20 pmTwo things can be true at once.
1. A lot of planning went into the assault — i.e. it wasn’t just a few rowdies who got out of hand in the heat of the moment.
2. People were encouraged and emboldened to “march” on the Capitol and “fight like hell” because the president told them to do it. As you acknowledged: “Now some people in the crowd thought they were following Trump’s orders.”
It wasn’t just that one speech by Trump that needs to be weighed. There are all the ways he encouraged them to fly to D.C. in the first place. He said publicly that it was going to be “wild.”
I really don’t understand the need to try to make Trump out to be a total innocent in all of this, when there is so much evidence that he was ramping up the rage, and doing it deliberately.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:27 pmPersonally, I see no connection with Obama authorizing a drone strike in Yemen which killed American citizens and Trump grooming a harem of 8,000 catamites for five years whom he finally sicced on the Capitol while Congress was counting the Electoral votes, but that’s probably because I stopped drinking eight years ago and the strongest medication I take is aspirin.
nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:30 pmGryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 1:29 pm
People tend to follow traffic and access directions when given by men in uniform.
To prevent bloodshed.
It was an attempt to apply neutral principles derived from the Black Lives Matters protests earlier.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/national-guard-unarmed-electoral-college-protests
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:30 pm325. You’re a tad behind RIP; Kevin and especially I find it a perfect fit for Nancy; and we agree our Captain is fully Queeg. Wholly; totally, right down to his gender. So thanks for the handle to ‘plagiarize.’ 😉
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:40 pmRadegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:27 pm
He tweeted that on December 19, two and a half weeks before. It was one of many tweets promoting is protest.
He wated people who would come there.
Its not that he was a total innocent; actually he should have known who or what some of the people who were getting involved were.
It is that we don’t know what he thought was going to happen, and none of it made sense, and some of wat happened (like the pipe bomb at the RNC, or the storming of other sites across the country, like in Washington State ad in Topeka Kansas would have been of absolutely no interest to him.)
Different people involved probably knew different things. Whatever Trump did or knew, his speech is not evidence of intent to interfere with Congress.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:43 pmRecords show fervent Trump fans fueled US Capitol takeover
…….
The insurrectionist mob that showed up at the president’s behest and stormed the U.S. Capitol was overwhelmingly made up of longtime Trump supporters, including Republican Party officials, GOP political donors, far-right militants, white supremacists, and adherents of the QAnon myth that the government is secretly controlled by a cabal of Satan-worshiping pedophile cannibals. Records show that some were heavily armed and included convicted criminals, such as a Florida man recently released from prison for attempted murder.
The Associated Press reviewed social media posts, voter registrations, court files and other public records for more than 120 people either facing criminal charges related to the Jan. 6 unrest or who, going maskless amid the pandemic, were later identified through photographs and videos taken during the melee.
The evidence gives lie to claims by right-wing pundits and Republican officials such as Rep. Matt Gaetz, R-Fla., that the violence was perpetrated by left-wing antifa thugs rather than supporters of the president.
…….
The AP found that many of the rioters had taken to social media after the November election to retweet and parrot false claims by Trump that the vote had been stolen in a vast international conspiracy. Several had openly threatened violence against Democrats and Republicans they considered insufficiently loyal to the president. During the riot, some livestreamed and posted photos of themselves at the Capitol. Afterwards, many bragged about what they had done.
As the mob smashed through doors and windows to invade the Capitol, a loud chant went up calling for the hanging of Vice President Mike Pence, the recent target of a Trump Twitter tirade for not subverting the Constitution and overturning the legitimate vote tally. Outside, a wooden scaffold had been erected on the National Mall, a rope noose dangling at the ready.
……..
Among them was Lonnie Leroy Coffman, 70, an Alabama grandfather who drove to Washington to attend Trump’s “Save America Rally” in a red GMC Sierra pickup packed with an M4 assault rifle, multiple loaded magazines, three handguns and 11 Mason jars filled with homemade napalm, according to court filings…….. Coffman was arrested that evening when he returned to the truck carrying a 9mm Smith & Wesson handgun and a .22-caliber derringer pistol in his pockets. Federal officials said Coffman is not suspected of planting the pipe bombs, though he was charged with having Molotov cocktails in the bed of his truck.
………
“Headed to DC with a (s—-) ton of 5.56 armor-piercing ammo,” (Cleveland Gover Meredith Jr., from Georgia) texted friends and relatives on Jan. 6, adding a purple devil emoji, according to court filings. The following day, he texted to the group: “Thinking about heading over to Pelosi (C——’s) speech and putting a bullet in her noggin on Live TV.” He once again added a purple devil emoji, and wrote he might hit her with his truck instead. “I’m gonna run that (C—-) Pelosi over while she chews on her gums. … Dead (B——) Walking. I predict that within 12 days, many in our country will die.”
A participant in the text exchange provided screenshots to the FBI, who tracked Meredith to a Holiday Inn a short walk from the Capitol. They found a compact Tavor X95 assault rifle, a 9mm Glock 19 handgun and about 100 rounds of ammunition, according to court filings. The agents also seized a stash of THC edibles and a vial of injectable testosterone.
……..
The AP’s review found that QAnon beliefs were common among those who heeded Trump’s call to come to Washington.
…….
The insurrectionist mob also included members of the neofascist group known as the Proud Boys, whom Trump urged to “stand back and stand by” when asked to condemn them by a moderator during a presidential debate in September.
……..
(William Arthur Leary, who owns a manufactured housing business in Utica, New York) said he doesn’t trust information reported by the mainstream media and that one of his main sources of information was Infowars, the far-right conspiracy site run by Alex Jones. He denied he ever set foot in the Capitol and complained that he was held for more than 24 hours and had his cell phone seized.
“They treated us like animals,” he complained. “They took all our phones. I didn’t get to make a phone call to tell anybody where I was.”
……..
Brad Rukstales, a Republican political donor and CEO of Cogensia, a Chicago-based data analytics firm, was arrested with a group of a half-dozen Trump supporters who clashed with officers Wednesday inside the Capitol. Campaign finance reports show Rukstales contributed more than $25,000 to Trump’s campaign and other GOP committees during to 2020 election cycle.
He told a local CBS news channel last week that he had entered the Capitol and apologized. He was fired Friday and did not respond to calls and emails seeking comment.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:45 pm………
334. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:20 pm
How come nobody else anticipated it then? The speech was not given in secret.
“fight” means “work hard”
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:47 pmSammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:43 pm
It’s almost like there’s a spectrum between literally planning an armed insurrection and totally innocent. I don’t know Sammy, this sort of non-binary thinking might be more trouble than it’s worth.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 5:54 pmSomebody, at least, had obstruction of Congress in mind:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/actions-by-police-before-trump-supporters-attacked-capitol-backfired-spectacularly-11610064600
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:03 pm“fight” means “work hard”
Uh-huh. What does “trial by combat” mean?
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:04 pmIn the Eternal Dream of the Nameless wherein the most powerful woman in the world is a fictional senile actress and the President of the United States is a fictional navy captain who served his country with distinction for thirty years before succumbing to mental illness, anything can be dreamt, comrades, for there is no objective reality and we ourselves are only dreams who dream.
nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:07 pmWith Trump Presidency Winding Down, Push for Assange Pardon Ramps Up
No.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:09 pmUm, all those folks who actually did it certainly ancitipated it. They printed shirts calling for Civil War. I knew this was coming and said so here. It was not a secret what Trump wanted. He was trying to twist arms of officials to change election results, he was trying to rally a mob to scare republicans out of doing right.
Look, Frosty agrees with you. Case closed my friend.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:13 pm😎
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:13 pmHe should commute the death sentence of Lisa Montgomery to life imprisonment, or at least grant a reprieve past January 20 so that Biden can do it.
nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:15 pmSomebody tell William Leary of Utica NY that even Alex Jones and the great Cobra Kai pundit of NW Washington DC have left you to dry:
https://uproxx.com/viral/alex-jones-done-with-qanon-video/
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-ally-tucker-carlson-says-153321881.html
urbanleftbehind (3baf6e) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:19 pmRip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:04 pm
I’m not sure why you can’t lookup these things yourself. It sounds like it
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:26 pmRip Murdock (f56c1e) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:04 pm
I don’t know. That’s a sentence fragment, and when it is quoted, no other words are given. I’m not ready to assume that Giuliani meant, literally, that they should fight it out with the Biden people. (and then were they fighting with the political opposition? It doesn’t fit.)
It’a about time I maybe used Google to find out the rest of what Giuliani said.
https://news.yahoo.com/lets-trial-combat-over-election-164935300.html
OK.
“Combat” means let’s have it out and not argue with words. Let them see “the machines” and it he can’t demonstrate they were crooked he’ll give up.
Now I don;t have the answer why nobody wanted to call his bluff. Maybe because he is asking for machines that don’t exist.
I bet you didn’t think the context was something like that but you should have been put on alert by the fact that he context was never quoted. That’s often a sign of fake quotations – here it wouldn’t be fake, just ripped out of context. Plus the fact that it would have been exceedingly odd for Giuliani, even in his new incarnation as a Donald Trump partisan, to propose dueling as a method of deciding who was right.
And that’a another thing: “Trial” of course means trial, not an attack like took place. That might be described, if you stretched it, as “combat” but not a “trial” unless every kind of fighting is a trial. But a “trial” means a process with a clear beginning and an end.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:30 pmDustin (4237e0) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:13 pm
Mind reading again? In some jurisdictions that sort of stuff is illegal.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:30 pm👆😢
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:36 pmHe pressured a secretary of state to “find” votes for him. He had a U.S. attorney ousted for failing to do enough to “find” votes for him.
He reportedly told Kelly Loeffler he would “do a number on her” if she didn’t participate in overturning the Electoral College results. (And that is fully in character for Trump, so I believe it.)
On Jan. 6 he tried to call Tuberville’s personal phone (but instead got Mike Lee) to pressure him not to certify. Do you think there aren’t more such calls we don’t know about?
What was the purpose of telling his fanatics to fly to D.C. and march on the Capitol if not to interfere with Congress?
He told the fanatics that Pence hadn’t shown the courage to do what he wanted. If that wasn’t a threat, what was the point of saying it?
It is not true that nobody else anticipated trouble. What is true is that people in power were too lax, or in denial, or else they wanted trouble to happen. The fact that Trump publicly and openly stirred up a mob doesn’t make it better. He thinks he’s untouchable and beyond reproach. And if he speaks that way in public, what might he be doing and saying privately?
Not in the English language.
Before the election, Trump would not commit to accepting a result he didn’t like. Now he still says he will NEVER concede. What does “Never” mean in your dictionary?
I can’t fathom why anyone still thinks Trump is morally deserving of so much effort to absolve him of responsibility for the consequences of his words and actions.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:40 pm“Trial by combat” historically was literally, physically fighting as the means of settling a dispute.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:43 pmJoust a minute! Interpret it any way you want, the goombah was still telling the nosepickers the election was stolen just as Congress was about to certify it.
nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:44 pmDustin (4237e0) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:13 pm
But how was he going to scare them? By physical threat or by threat of political retribution?
He was gong to scare a few Democrats too?
But his whole plan involved delaying the counting of the Electoral votes by Congress, and then getting states to send – well after the date for the Electors to vote – substitute electoral votes.
It is obvious that whoever was selling Trump on this strategy was lying to him. It was not grasping at straws – this was a real plan. But one only somebody lying to Trump could have proposed.
And I say that if people were lying to him on strategy they could have been lying to him on tactics.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:45 pmDustin (4237e0) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:36 pm
Why the tears? You’re so close to being free of that literally whole world ruining thing? At least one of them.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:45 pmExactly.
Susan Collins was right. Trump learned his lesson. The lesson is that the GOP and many others will give Trump the benefit of the doubt, no matter what he does, no matter if there’s is actually no doubt.
We have little inklings of what Trump is doing in secret. The call to Ukraine and Georgia each totally justify Trump’s removal from office. I suspect had the Georgia call not been leaked, the Capitol mob would have been far worse. That took a lot of energy away from Trump at just the right moment.
But that mob was not isolated. They brought guns to state legislatures to scream at people voting wrong, and wanted to kidnap a governor. The Q Anon stuff that Trump tapped into talks about assassinating leaders all the time.
And a lot of folks trying to puzzle this out fairly are good folks, a lot of folks who believe Trump was robbed are good folks. I only know this because I see it first hand. I don’t understand it though.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:46 pm357. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:43 pm
Where only two people fought, like a duel. Not a melee.
Giuliani’s “combat” was letting look at machines.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:48 pmSammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:48 pm
Exactly. I’m not sure why otherwise erudite people
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:56 pm358. nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:44 pm
Yes. And I said he should, or could, be impeached just for that.
That’s enough.
Stick to undeniable facts.
Kevin M said there was a much simpler article you could use – that he was a rude, no-good, rotten, evil [scoundrel] who has no business in public life.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:57 pmfrosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:56 pm
people choose to twist things into the pretzel they need even when it’s not supported by the context.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:59 pmfrosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:56 pm
Tey;re just repeating a meme, because people who cite it talk like it makes sense.
Similar to what goes on on the part of “conservative” people
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:00 pmI for one am glad that the capitol police and others did not smash the invaders with a show of force. They protected people and moved them out of harm’s way while giving the invaders enough rope to hang themselves.
If there had been a giant show of force, there would have been more injuries, maybe deaths, and the public would not really know who these people were and what they intended.
That is now clear, and Trump is discredited by it. All of this is good. Losing a few doors and windows is a small price to pay for getting them to let the mask slip.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:01 pmIt was not a secret what Trump wanted.
Considering that he is on tape holding gleeful party while the Capitol was attacked — to the point of watching the melee on big screen TVs — it’s pretty damn obvious what he wanted.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:04 pmSammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:57 pm
Again, exactly. What’s the point in hyperbole and convoluted mind reading?
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:05 pm361. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/10/2021 @ 6:46 pm
When people hear d differetnt people repeating the same thing, and they do in this case (from talk radio show hosts they have grown to consider informed) and the argument is also really over their head they tend to believe it, if they’re not careful. The arguments being made go unanswered.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:06 pmKevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:04 pm
He seems to be studying what’s being reported intently. I don’t know the time.
Trump was reported to have sad that the people there were low class and he didn’t like that.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:13 pmAt least the Arizona GOP has its priorities in order.
The state party has been captured by the uberTrumpists and they have been really quite good at losing winnable elections by undercutting the bulk of their party. All you really need to know is that Kelli Ward is chairperson.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:18 pmKevin M (ab1c11) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:04 pm
If you’ve lost Snopes you might not want to get too committed to that one. It sounds like he went back to the WH after his speech and I’m pretty sure if Snopes had evidence of a party there we’d know about it rather than what they actually report.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:20 pmTrump was reported to have sad that the people there were low class and he didn’t like that.
Since you mention it, I can’t help but wonder what the mom and son team did with the flex cuffs and military uniforms when they were not invading the Capitol.
nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:23 pmOne Capitol policeman got hit over the head with a fire extinguisher (which some of the invaders were using to spray foam at police as a form of chemical warfare) and died later, and one protester was shot in the neck while trying to be the first member of the mob to enter a room, and was killed (despite some attempts to save her) and three other members of the mob died because of 3 unspecified medical emergencies. (the people who were there skewed toward the older side, but still?)
Another member of the Capitol police died later but they’re not clear about it except he was off duty.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:25 pmOfficer Eugene Goodman is a national hero. He’s the Capitol Police officer who used quick thinking to lure the Trumper seditionists away from the Senate chamber. He probably saved lives. The emerging information shows that a massacre may have been the goal.
Meanwhile Sohrab Ahmari seems to believe that Biden and Pelosi wouldn’t have regretted the murder of Officer Sicknick if they had known he was a Trump supporter. Which might say something about how Ahmari would have weighted his response if the officer had been a NeverTrumper.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:28 pmHonestly Urban, I don’t think it will. I wish it would. People need to start being responsible for themselves again. That will make America great no matter who sits in the Oval Office. We’ve been so soft and so dependent on politicians for so long, I’m not holding out a lot of hope.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:30 pmFrom Snopes:
This cannot be error. The person who started this trope was lying.
That video has a scene with DJT hr where he says it is T minus 20 seconds or something like that, but he was speaking about Trump speaking at the rally, not the breaching of the barriers at the Capitol.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:31 pmGryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:30 pm
After the recent round of discussions about the inalienable 1st amendment rights of association and private property rights of corporations and private businesses I’m starting to think they certainly could.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:36 pmWhat I’ve said, and what I believe, is that those individuals fighting to keep their own businesses open and their own livelihoods going are the real freedom fighters. Every time I hear someone describe Donald Trump by saying “he fights,” it makes me wince. That has to be the biggest bull$h1t line in the history of bull$h1t artists.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:38 pmSammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:31 pm
Lying is a strong word. It’s possible but my guess is the person who started the story saw what they wanted to see and the people who repeat it do so for the same reason. It plays into their cognitive biases.
Although, there are some red flags in the claim that I’d like to think would trigger a skeptical person.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:46 pmI never got that whole “he fights” bit, I can’t think of a single situation where he fights. In life he threatened often, but when it came town to filing suit, he was almost always on the losing side. Personally, he’s the least threatening person ever born. He’s 20 years older than me, but if he challenged my 5yo butt to fisticuffs, I’d have laughed as he was being pounded upon the knee and crotch until more tears flowed from his eyes. He’s not smart, not clever, has no internal courage, is a follower. He is the epitome of a weak human, mentally, physically, and the whole teeny tiny weenie thing may or may not impact that in his tiny mind.
Loser.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:47 pmGryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:38 pm
I don’t disagree with your core point but the history of bs artwork is vast and subjective. Reasonable people might offer up alternatives. I’d offer up “Peace for our time” but there are so many to choose from. Another might be the claim that D’s are anti-authoritarian and saving us from nazis.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:57 pmColonel, sir, you kind of made me laugh. My eyes were drawn to the last word of your post, which I instinctively thought was directed at me. Then I went back and read the whole thing. Nice to see that you and I can agree on something. 😉
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:58 pmOkay. Let me rephrase that:
I hope that sufficiently qualifies what I was trying to say.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:59 pmI’d like to see the odds on kept limbs and/or open casket had the mob encountered Capitol PD officers Ahmari and Alexander. I didn’t see any Walkaway or Turning Point USA brigades among the legions either.
urbanleftbehind (52590f) — 1/10/2021 @ 8:00 pmNk, by rule of genetics it looks better than Rittenhouse-Rittenhouse would…sorry couldn’t resist.
urbanleftbehind (52590f) — 1/10/2021 @ 8:03 pmThe anger they have towards nevertrumpers comes from knowing, the whole damn time, that we were right.
Nice. I always think about how pathetic Trump is when his fanboys say he’s “always five steps ahead” of a guy who is constantly screwing up. I bet he’s contemplating suicide.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/10/2021 @ 8:11 pmColonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:47 pm
I’d blame it on the pervasive abuse of language, the utter fecklessness of GOPe, and the trap of binary thinking.
Whatever the GOPe is doing, it’s hard to describe it as anything in the remote vicinity of “fighting”. Especially, as it relates to their supposed constituents. Trump did something different than that. What exactly he did isn’t important for my point, only that it was different from whatever GOPe had been doing. Then binary thinking kicks in and if GOPe is not fighting then you’ve got limited choices.
Another alternative is that kicking in the door of the GOPe, coming in and drinking all the liquor, and taking a massive dump on the floor might be described by some people as “fighting”.
And in the hopes of avoiding the obvious response, describing a thing isn’t agreeing with a thing because one thing and another thing or something.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 8:22 pmAbout Rittenhouse, all I’ll say is that a 17-year old with two notches on his gun does creep me out, urbanleftbehind.
nk (1d9030) — 1/10/2021 @ 8:25 pmGryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 7:59 pm
I got it. Just trying to have a little fun.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2021 @ 8:37 pmCertainly. No offense taken at all. 😀
Gryph (f63000) — 1/10/2021 @ 8:41 pmI don’t believe for a second that Trump is contemplating suicide- not when there is golden opportunity of fresh victimhood to wear a d peddle to his loyal base. They’ll open their wallets so he can ‘drain the swamp’. Which he would’ve done if the election hadn’t been stolen from him. It’s just the same old grift in new clothes.
I think that Melania has checked out (doing photo shoots in WH during the melee), Ivanka grasps the severity of it all (she convinced Trump to the video) but is loyal to Trump, and Eric and Don Jr. are going to follow daddy’s lead on how to most effectively cash in on the chaos.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:19 pmI was in 6th grade and I had a Donald Trump type (a juniour) ride my bus to get to school, Bentley’s and Benzes this was not. This guy would just egg it on, over and over continuously. My old man was the president of the school board, on the board for the county and chair of ORP. So he just thought he was going to pick on this little kid for sport. Well, summer happened, I grew a foot and about 60lbs. I specifically targeted his position as my path from Freshman team to Varsity. So I beat the crap out of him for weeks, into game 1 I was the starter as a Freshman, and he rode the pine the rest of his career. At no point did I ever have to do anything other than best effort to try and he literally ran away. I still reflect on that lessen whenever my hot-headedness (yeah I’m hot headed) gets too strong, it reals me back down, and lets me think about what would be the worst outcome for the adversary. Burying a proff’s PHD dissertation based on them missing basic facts, yup, guilty. I have to say, after I hit the real age of adulting for a male, so 32, it all tends to just run off the ducks back, it bothers me less.
And let me tell you, middle management in this country’s armed forces will drive you to to seek an uncovered launch key based on the level of dumb you deal with every day. Imagine JR high bully, promoted to Bill Clinton?
TBH, as little as we got along politically, he was a good bubba to hang around with, not to date your sister or loan him some money, but I’ve met worse. The current occupant being what the commode won’t flush.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:22 pmMarch 16, 2016:
Plus ça change …
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:35 pmI would love to see Trump impeached and convicted, but do the Democrats really want to bar the buffoon from running again? It’s so much better to let him be the Republican nominee in 2024, thus ensuring a Democratic win.
It’s like the minimum wage. That issue could be solved permanently if the minimum wage were indexed to inflation, but it’s much more valuable as a cudgel that can be wielded every few years against Republicans.
norcal (b4d7b1) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:40 pm“It’s so much better to let him be the Republican nominee in 2024, thus ensuring a Democratic win.”
This was the theory in 2016. At this point I’d rather not take the risk.
Davethulhu (95ea9f) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:01 pmI just want him to have to defend his tough guy person, I’d happily take one arm tied behind my back, and hobbled. Heck, without that I’d challenge the brood, for honor. They’d never show.
They the least tough group of people on this planet… And any other.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:10 pmColonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/10/2021 @ 9:22 pm
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:10 pm
We get it Colonel, you’re a tough guy. Your special insight into the nature of bullying is well articulated and nobody wants to challenge you for honor, hobbled or not.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 4:06 amDavethulhu (95ea9f) — 1/10/2021 @ 10:01 pm
Then let’s hope they go the route of impeachment instead of the 25th.
frosty (7cb126) — 1/11/2021 @ 4:41 amIf there’s one thing we can rely on is Democrats always doing what’s best for their party, and not for the country. Unlike Republicans who, rugged individualists that they are, always do what’s best for themselves and not for either their party or the country.
nk (1d9030) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:56 am🤡
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:59 amFrosty, I have another theory and I would love your opinion on it. I don’t think it means your theory is wrong, I think they’re complimentary.
The previous GOP fought for certain policy outcomes; less abortion, lower taxes, changes to the trade relationship with China. They didn’t fight for cultural respect and they were willing, even happy, to get a policy win in a complicated way that didn’t get a lot of press.
Trump fought for respect and for solutions that simple and obvious.
I’ll pick an example that isn’t a culture war issue: Trade with China.
GOP position: Complex multi-nation trade deal with the countries that surround China that is beneficial to our interests. It walls china in and they will have to make changes they want if they’re going to join, which we believe they want to. Further we won’t make this part of it too big a deal because we want China to join and accept the changes and if we making joining a show subservience it’s less likely they will.
Trump position: Bend them to our will with Tariffs and force them to cry uncle with a trade deal. The details of the deal matter less then China admitting that we pushed them into it.
There are plenty of other examples but my theory is that lots of his base saw things like that and his fights on twitter and with the press corp as exactly what they wanted because their goal was less a policy outcome, and more a demand for cultural respect from people they felt looked down on him.
Anyway, if you see this I wonder what you think of the theory.
Time123 (457a1d) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:00 am“I have the support of the police, the support of the military, the support of the Bikers for Trump
Well, when you have Bikers for Trump …. There are, in fact, tons of them. Just not very many. In many places, they’re hampered by traffic laws which require their motorcycles to have black and yellow striped signs on the front and back saying WIDE LOAD. (Not that they’re really necessary.) (Especially when they have a passenger.)
nk (1d9030) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:03 amBaloney. The GOP hasn’t fought for $h1t in my lifetime. They said they were going to every two years, and then never did.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:18 amWhy do you say that? Access to abortion has been steadily declining in GOP controlled areas. It hasn’t been accomplished with big bold actions that summarize quickly but by many small actions that add up when taken together. Just to pick another example.
Time123 (dba73f) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:23 amThe GOP is always fighting for ways to make the rich richer. All that other stuff is stardust and moonshine and table scraps to their constituencies.
nk (1d9030) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:41 amTime123 (457a1d) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:00 am
This seems like the heart of your theory:
The first part sounds like the bully argument. Trump was a bully, his voters like bullies, etc. Ok but that doesn’t really seem interesting.
The second part seems to be a more useful. Why didn’t Trump voters appreciate that a complex multi-lateral trade deal was a fight in their interests? The easy answer is they’re stupid but even if that were true it’s just covering over the problem. Another possibility is that, while it might be possible to explain this as fighting against China, is it obviously fighting for a significant section of the US population?
The first answer hints at a fundamental problem with democracy. If the elected representatives can’t explain a thing to voters, or might be unwilling to really try, then are they really acting with the consent of the governed? It sounds like you could get the same results with a benevolent monarch. So, it’s possible voters used “he fights” as code for saying things in terms they can understand. Different example; one coach on the way to the locker room at half time starts discussing future player decisions and changing offensive strategies and another coach says he’s going to go into the locker room and properly motivate the *bleep*ing offense to put some points up and the defense to stomp a *bleep*ing mud hole in some *bleep*ers. Which one do you think gets the “he fights” label? If your gut reaction is to ask whether we want stupid people involved in these decisions, again, welcome to American democracy where 50% of the people are below average intelligence and more than 50% appreciate a good mud hole stomping.
The second answer gets at a problem with the reality of the situation. Is a multilateral trade deal benefiting APAC really “fighting” for the average voter? I don’t know. Is it the optimal strategy? Maybe. Some things are zero sum and some aren’t. But that doesn’t sound like “fighting” either.
As a disclaimer; in the binary world of “he didn’t make the required denouncements so this must be some attempt to support Trump” I’m not trying to do that. I’m just trying to address the “why do people think he fights” question.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 7:20 amFrosty, Disclaimer isn’t needed on my end. I get your point on the 2nd part and need to think about it a little before i respond.
The first part wasn’t intended as Trump = Bully. One of the assertion in Tim Alberta’s book was the conservatives didn’t like Bush’s ‘compassionate conservatism’ because they felt it was an apology for what they believed. An unnecessary apology since they didn’t see anything wrong with their world view. Trump didn’t apologize for anything ever.
Trump vocally stood up for them and attacked the people they felt were showing them disrespect.
Trump’s approach is often vulgar and beneath the office of the presidency. But that doesn’t mean it has to be that way. Imagine if Mitt Romney, with no changes to his current delivery, identified the unflattering assumption in a typical press question and attacked that clearly instead of answering. that could be an example of an alternative approach. In both cases we’re not talking about Policy, just someone arguing with the press.
Time123 (dba73f) — 1/11/2021 @ 7:50 am1. The average Joe is unrealistic about what government can actually do for him
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/11/2021 @ 7:57 am2. The average Joe is also unrealistic about how legislation happens in a system designed to build consensus and compromise…the fact that you vote for a guy means nothing if there are not sufficient majorities in both houses…or bipartisan appeal for what is being proposed
3. The media has figured out that it gets far more eyes by hosting dramatic opinion shows versus news shows designed to objectively inform and educate
4. People naturally want to look for some “other” to blame their problems on…simple means there is no messy gray and need to learn more information….China bad, corporations bad, government bad….all make messaging simple
5. Confirmation bias and the rise of echo chambers…stifles good faith discussion
6. Neither the Left or the Right is a monolith…this is usually just a lazy way of avoiding compromise and having to build consensus…neither AOC or Cruz are as powerful as either side thinks they are
@409 frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 7:20 am
frosty, I think it’s much simpler than that.
Many GOP voters want Republicans to “fight” for them – that is, at the very least, the appearance of fighting (metaphorically) their ideological opponents.
It’s why the #FakeNews mantra as legs.
Much of the media, higher learning institutions and entertainment industry are considered ideological opponents to the right…and opportunistically Trump tapped into this.
Now, I’ll agree with anyone that Trump is a horrible candidate to be the right’s champion.
But, ask yourselves this: Isn’t this an indictment of the GOP party pre-Trump? Hence why some say, Trump is the symptom, not the disease?
whembly (7c17c7) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:03 am@410 Time123 (dba73f) — 1/11/2021 @ 7:50 am
Exactly Time…. particularly your last point about Romney.
whembly (7c17c7) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:04 amTime123 (dba73f) — 1/11/2021 @ 7:50 am
That is something that will get into the weeds fast. Compassionate conservatism in theory is one thing. I’m not sure what it is in practice.
It’d be interesting. It would probably look like Gabbard or Paul. They’d be sidelined as anomalies. Romney seems like a bad example because he’s clearly playing to the press and I’m not aware of any policy positions of his that run against the grain. In fact, if you need a reference for which way the grain is running he’s it. It would also be interesting if we had a press that wasn’t captured by bias.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:21 amNote: it wasn’t tear gas that was used on the Capitol Hill police – it was pepper spray.
The commander of the Capital Hill police wanted the National Guard there – both Sergeants at Arms did not. All three have resigned.
President Trump ordered flags put at half staff yesterday – after apparently it was noticed that he hadn’t done so yet.
The second Capitol Hill Policeman who died committed suicide, although this information didn’t come from the police themselves, who only announced he was dead and that he was off duty when he died, but from informal and anonymous sources.
The efforts by businesses and organizations to separate themselves from Donald Trump have gone to the extent of the PGA saying it would no longer hold a golf tournament at his club in Bedminster, New Jersey.
One thing that is complained about but is completely legitimate is corporate PACs, which after all, take a political position (except they try to play both sides to some extent) announcing either that they will pause political contributions for a period, or that they don’t want to contribute to anybody who voted to uphold one of the two objections to a state’s Electoral votes that were voted on.
The FBI’s investigations are focusing (as they should) on what the intentions were of different people involved.
The House will vote today on a resolution calling o Mike Pence to invoke the 25th amendment (which is o more proper or likely to succeed than than not counting any state’s Electoral votes) It is not expected to succeed. Then on Tuesday she will put an impeachment resolution on the floor.
Like last time, she’s claiming it is an emergency, but will withhold it from the Senate for a period of time, possibly 100 days, giving as the biggest and most specific reasons so that Biden’s nominees can go through the confirmation process with less difficulty and delay and a coronovirus relief bill pass.
Trump will award the presidential medal of Freedom to Jim Jordan today and later make a speech on social media this afternoon, revisit the border and make a speech on Tuesday and award the Presidential Medal of Freedom to Patriot’s coach Bill Belichick on Thursday. This is an award invented by some previous president. (President John F. Kennedy in 1963. It superseded the Medal of Freedom that was established by President Harry S Truman in 1945 to honor civilian service during World War II.) Now it means nothing. Colin Powell received it twice. As did Elsworth Bunker. It was awarded posthumously to Elvis Presley and Babe Ruth.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:25 amSecretary of State Mike Pompeo has authorized all U.S. diplomats to meet with officials from Taiwan, which he said had only been done to appease Beijing and were self-imposed. China’s state media is complaining that this is an act of sabotage to inflict a long lasting scar on U.S. China ties and has no interest in world peace, etc. but there are no statements coming from the government.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:43 amSammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:25 am
This makes no sense to me from a separation of powers perspective and I don’t think the 25th was meant to deal with this sort of problem. The House has tools at their disposal. Don’t “demand” or “request” something or else impeachment. Just do the impeachment.
We’ve certainly got our best people on this. Make no mistake about that. Later today we’ll find out that she’s called on POTUS to make a special ruling on the wishlist she wrote on the back of her martini napkin.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:48 amfrosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:48 am
POTUS -> SCOTUS
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:50 amAs of this minute, we have exactly ten days before our long, national nightmare is over. We are not safe yet.
nk (1d9030) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:00 amThe UK variant of Covid-19 does not appear to affect the effectiveness of either the antibodies or the vaccines, according to Dr. Scott Gottlieb yesterday on Face the Nation, but the South African variant might.
He clearly and annoying does not want to say anything unofficial, but you don’t need to wait for a study to determine what might have a problem and what would not.
He says with time the vaccine might not to be modified (without sustained and time consuming testing?)
He argues that the possibility of mutations is one reason to get the vaccine out faster so there’s less around to mutate.
There is pretty much enough vaccine available for older people. Later we might have a bottleneck with manufacturing but right now it is with distribution. Millions and millions of vaccine doses sitting on shelves in freezers.
There is much less gene sequencing of the virus in the USA than the UK, and what there is is not co-ordinated but at this stage the percentage of COVID-19 infections in the USA that are from the UK variant is about 0.2% to 0.3%, and the South Africa variant even less. The UK variant does spread more, with a R0 about now in the 0.90s for the regular coronavirus and close to 1.5 for the UK variant.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:02 am@417 frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:48 am
re: invoking the 25th, Congress *CAN* setup committees in both houses for this, but only if initiated by the Vice President if I remember correctly.
You’re right in that impeachment is the easier path, than trying to get all parties needed to invoke the 25th.
Which undercuts the seriousness of their claims, unless the true goal is to bar Trump from holding future office.
whembly (a500a7) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:04 amnk @419. Nine days. Today is January 11th. Noon, Eastern Standard Time next Wednesday. Trump would be better kept under control if he could still use Twitter, with conditions.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:04 amwhembly (a500a7) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:04 am
The goal might actually be not to bar him, because doing so would help the opposition. Just make voting for him unthinkable among 65% to 75% of the American public. There’s a sweet spot they might like to hit. If they’re cynical enough
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:08 amI’m counting every day which contains one minute during which Trump has control of the nuclear button, Sammy. That’s ten.
nk (1d9030) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:10 amIt is also in the interest of Republicans to bar Trump from running again, so there is a confluence of interests.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:10 am#421 (whembly)
The goal has to be to ban Trump from holding future office. Otherwise, this is just an exercise in partisan stomping about.
Appalled (1a17de) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:12 amI also agree with Time123’s distinction between pointing out flaws in questions and just being an ass. The main difference between Romney and Trump is intelligence. There are other differences to say the least, but Trump was far, far too stupid to listen to a question and recognize, identify, and correct a flawed premise like Newt Gingrich or Ted Cruz could.
It would be cool if the GOP could just switch to smart leaders, but they do not deserve to. Too many are traitors. Anyone identifying as a Republican today is identifying with a party where most of the House membership tried to steal an election and the President led psychos to mob the Capitol, where they beat a cop to death with flagpoles and fire extiguishers, shouting about hanging the VP. There is no exaggeration here. I know this is the internet, someone will always try to correct even the most basic truth like what I just said, but the GOP simply doesn’t deserve anything. Romney will probably try to fight for the soul of the GOP, but there is no soul. Ted Cruz didn’t change. He revealed. If you still have faith in the GOP, you are as big a sucker as I was four years ago.
There is a present, serious danger. Yes, Team D is exploiting it, slow rolling it, being weak. They would rather keep ‘should Trump be removed’ as an issue because it is so useful to see Republicans argue for Trump today. Screw them too, of course.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:14 amThe Democrats’ goal is to have Trump as a millstone around the GOP’s neck without danger of it ever rolling on the Democrats’ toes, and there’s very little the GOP can do about it now. They should have impeached the mother-figure when they had the chance, and no amount of grief-stage “bargaining” is going to change that.
nk (1d9030) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:17 amTalk-radio owner orders conservative hosts to temper election fraud rhetoric
……
Cumulus Media, which employs some of the most popular right-leaning talk-radio hosts in the United States, has told its on-air personalities to stop suggesting that the election was stolen from President Trump — or else face termination.
A Cumulus executive issued the directive on Wednesday, just as Congress met to certify Joe Biden’s election victory and an angry mob of Trump supporters marched on the Capitol, overwhelmed police and briefly occupied the building, terrorizing lawmakers and leading to the deaths of five people.
“We need to help induce national calm NOW,” Brian Philips, executive vice president of content for Cumulus, wrote in an internal memo, which was first reported by Inside Music Media. Cumulus and its program syndication arm, Westwood One, “will not tolerate any suggestion that the election has not ended. The election has been resolved and there are no alternate acceptable ‘paths.’ ”
The memo adds: “If you transgress this policy, you can expect to separate from the company immediately.”
……
Since the election, Cumulus has remained silent while some of its most popular hosts — which include Mark Levin and Dan Bongino — have amplified Trump’s lies that the vote was “rigged” or in some way fraudulent.
On his program on Tuesday, the day before the march on the Capitol, for example, Levin fulminated about Congress’s certification of electoral votes for Biden, describing the normally routine vote as an act of “tyranny.”
“You think the framers of the Constitution … sat there and said, ‘Congress has no choice [to accept the votes], even if there’s fraud, even if there’s some court order, even if some legislature has violated the Constitution?’ ” Levin said, his voice rising to a shout.
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The memo appears to reflect the reality that voters, presidential electors, courts and now Congress have accepted or certified that Biden won the election and is the president-elect. It may also be an attempt to cool down emotions that led to Wednesday’s invasion of the Capitol, and to mollify advertisers that are concerned about being associated with programs that could be inciting listeners to violence.
……
However, there’s some question as to whether stars such as Levin will comply with the recent edict and whether Cumulus will discipline them if they don’t.
On his syndicated radio program on Thursday, a day after Cumulus sent its memo and Trump supporters breached the Capitol, Levin didn’t seem to be backing off. “It appears nothing has changed in 24 hours,” he said on the air. “Not a damn thing. The never-Trumpers, the RINOs, the media — same damn thing.”
He went on to add: “I’m not stirring up a damn thing. Everything I say is based on principle and mission. Everything is based on liberty, family, faith, the Constitution. … My enemies and my critics can’t say the same.”
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:20 am…….
More whiplash among the insurrectionist media. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
JustSecurity has an incitement timeline.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:21 amwhembly (a500a7) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:04 am
Which the 25th doesn’t do.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:23 amRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:20 am
That doesn’t make it seem like cancel culture is a myth.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:44 amTime123 (dba73f) — 1/11/2021 @ 7:50 am
whembly (7c17c7) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:03 am
I find your comments persuasive. Thank you for making them.
felipe (630e0b) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:45 amWhembly, the true goal is for each individual con artist to win their next graft or election opportunity. Unfortunately, that means a lot of theater from Team D forcing Team R into eating their own. Either you’re with the Romneys or you’re with the Cruzes of the party, and for those who are navigating this cynically, like McConnell and Graham, it’s incredibly valuable to Team D politics. For Team R, it’s probably more about cash. Cruz made a bundle of money over his lies about the election.
For me, the concern is actually authentic. I think most Americans are just worried Trump will kill more Americans with his brain damaged decision making. He actually could nuke Iran or something, he actually could give (more) secrets to our enemies, he could do a lot of things. He could also eat a bottle of pills to avoid paying some of that looming debt he has to the Russians and to the law.
The 25th amendment is a great solution and doesn’t stop a longer investigation in the House. Trump really isn’t able to do the job. He really is nuts. It’s not schizophrenic, but he is delusional and he simply can’t understand the point of following laws, on a level that’s probably beyond morality.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:49 amRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:20 am
The memo adds: “If you transgress this policy, you can expect to separate from the company immediately.”
That doesn’t make it seem like cancel culture is a myth.
As a private business Cumulus is allowed to regulate the conduct of its employees. The talkers are free to go to another network or set up their own streams.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:56 amThinking that “cancel culture” applies to this directive is why I don’t pay much attention when people use the term.
Too many lunatics out there think that the election has been stolen and have shown a willingness to employ violence. The only problem with this memo is that the bosses didn’t issue it sooner.
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:56 amMike Ford at RedState is a liar, gaslighter and fool. If he’s going to die on that hill, so be it.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:06 am
nk (1d9030) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:09 amMike Ford atRedState is a liar, gaslighter and fool.Paul that was a hell of a read. He must have a checklist. “Party of Slavery” “Cocktail Circuit” “I know I am mordibly obese”
I particularly like that he claims there may not have been a crime involved with the death of the cop that was drag down stairs and beaten to death.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:12 amHe also dislikes most of the job, according to some insiders. He loves the prestige and adoration, and the feeling of being “strong,” but he hates having to learn anything.
This is the most important fact about Trump, and one of the most obvious: He really doesn’t understand how it could be wrong to do anything that’s in his own self-interest, or how it could be right for anyone else to do something that thwarts his desires. This mentality is more dangerous than the normal sort of self-serving that politicians (like anyone else) can be guilty of. You can’t shame him or appeal to a higher code of honor, because he won’t understand what you’re talking about.
This problem has been studiously ignored by those who insist that he displays good character by promoting certain policies they like. Those policies have never been the real heart of the Trump agenda. The heart of the Trump agenda has always been the extremely needy ego of Donald Trump.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:13 amRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:56 am
Yes, this is repeated so often that it’s an expected pre-programmed response to any mention of this issue.
Yes, this is also repeated as a pre-programmed response. We’re seeing how that holds up. BTW, it looks like JohnnyAgreeable disagrees with that one. This is shaping up to be a political opinion that can no longer be allowed to be spoken.
You forgot (shakes magic 8-ball) “not protected from repercussions”.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:15 amJohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 9:56 am
Are you sure you want to set the bar there? That seems like it would cover at least a few things that you’d probably not want to apply the rule to.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:20 amThat the election was stolen isn’t a political opinion. It’s a dangerous opinion used to give succor to nutjobs and has predictable consequences when the gullible nuts believe it.
johnnyagreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:21 amI didn’t set the bar anywhere. I’m responding to your opinion that it’s “cancel culture” for a media company to instruct its hosts not to coddle and encourage dangerous idiots who think the election was stolen from them with no actual facts to support that.
The media company set the relevant bar and I fully agree with it. In fact, as stated, they should have set it a while back.
johnnyagreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:25 amTo add on to my 443, it’s an opinion not based in any fact. There have been countless opportunities to show actual widespread fraud and no one has done so in any fashion. Irregularities should be examined as should actual instances of fraud. But given those instances appear isolated, it’s dangerous to repeat the lie–the lie, not a mere difference of opinion based on the same facts–that the election was stolen.
johnnyagreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:29 amI’ve seen some R’s in Congress say that their colleagues don’t really believe the election was stolen, but thought it in their interest to promote the notion.
First it was as a fundraising tool and a way to win MAGA love. Now it’s out of fear — not just fear of losing an election, but fear of violence. And by promoting the myth for so long, they greatly increased the risk of violence.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:36 am9:00 am PST = 12 noon EST. It was exactly nine before the inauguration (although parts of 10 different dates)
Not 9 Julian dates though, because that’s based on Greeenwich time. 5 hours ahead (or earlier) than Washington, D.C,
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:40 amjohnnyagreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:21 am
Aww, well, hold your teddybear tight and be thankful that Pelosi is on the case and big tech is keeping you safe. They will run the nutjobs down and you won’t have to hear these awful awful words anymore.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:43 amWow Frosty sure is a nice, honest person.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:46 am443. johnnyagreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:21 am
It is a political opinion, in the same sense that thinking South Korea invaded North Korea in 1950 or that Mao ran a good and just government in China s a political opinion. It is not necessarily a dangerous opinion.
In the United States Woodw Wilson considered that not supporting the war in 1918 was a dangerous opinion
You need something more than just a belief that the election had been stolen. After all, some elections in the past have been stolen. Maybe you believe it is a dangerous opinion when it is manifestly not true.
But you still need some other beliefs to accompany it, and those are the dangerous beliefs.
That people would riot etc just simply because they believed the election was stolen was not predictable and was not predicted. You needed also, at least, the belief that they should and could “stop the steal” and you needed more than that even.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:51 amCumulus was happy to indulge its talkers in spreading outright lies and conspiracy theories when it profited them. Now the shoe is on the other foot and they want to profit from denouncing the lies and conspiracy theories they previously promoted. Given the fact that there a multitude of options for their talkers, (OANN, Breitbart, Newsmax, streaming services, The Blaze, the future Trump network) they are not being “cancelled” by the community, only regulated by their employer.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:51 amExactly where does the government enter the picture when we’re talking about the media company? I fear you will have to point out where the government ordered the media company to issue that order. Maybe ol’ Johnny’s eyes are failing, but I can’t see it. I certainly agree the government shouldn’t be able to stop people from speaking their opinion, silly and unfounded as it is.
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:56 amDustin (4237e0) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:46 am
I can’t tell if you’ve changed your mind about engaging with me? I’ve been trying to honor your request as best I can but it seems like you want to do these sort of drive-bys with the implied insults. If it’s on your mind just say I’m a mean liar. Why cloak it?
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:56 amEven if is a dangerous opinion, stopping people from repeating that isn’t going to stop people from believing it, although you might argue it might stop people from organizing around it. For a time, anyway
Really though it just needs to be answered, and people who should know better shouldn’t repeat it. People should not be afraid of repeating the claims for fear people will believe them. That way actually lies madness.
It should be disputed, not because it will result in violence, but because it will undermine all trust.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:58 amfrosty and Johnny, I’ve been thinking about speech as a value/right vs. property rights. I think the answer is this;
Parler
If there is a health market for App delivery, server hosting, and other similar services the disruption to Parler will be temporary, if painful. Other companies that want the profit will move in to provide those services.
I don’t see why a company (Apple, Google, AWS, whoever) should be forced to do business with people they don’t want to do business with. But if they’re the only game in town, then that’s the definition of a monopoly and that’s a separate issue that will need to be dealt with.
Twitter
Time123 (306531) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:00 amTwitter is free to moderate whoever they please. How a platform moderates, when, the mechanics, is part of the user experience and a key differentiator. But I think a company that valued free speech the way I think a media company should would not have banned Trump. The benefit of the president being able to speak to the public is huge. Twitter should have (again IMO) put him into 100 moderation and made a decision on each tweet if they felt it was misinformation in support of violence. Again, i don’t own twitter so it’s not up to me but I think that would have been a better approach. After he’s no longer president they can ban him as they see fit.
Sammy, you are a breath of fresh air in a fog of passionate over-seriousness. Let me tell you how I figure it:
If Trump nukes Monte Carlo today, it will go down in history as January 11.
If tomorrow, as January 12.
If Wednesday, as January 13.
If Thursday, as January 14.
If Friday, as January 15.
If Saturday, as January 16.
If Sunday, as January 17,
If next Monday, as January 18.
If the day before the Inauguration, as January 19.
If in the morning before the Inauguration, as January 20.
That’s ten.
And, BTW, I am an attorney, and your way is local practice for counting days, so I do know what you’re talking about. But I’m not talking about a judge giving me nine days to respond to a pleading.
nk (1d9030) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:05 amJohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:56 am
You don’t see it because I didn’t say that. We went from the media memo to your fear in a few quick steps because it’s not just this particular media company that is responding to this situation. Would it help if I just limited it to Brian Philips is going to make the bad words go away on Cumulus Media?
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:05 amSometimes companies – and boycotts – can act like governments. That’s one reason we don’t like monopolies.
Now here Twitter was stupid. Most censors are.
I mean saying that he won’t attend the inauguration is an invitation to violence? (because it means they won’t inadvertently get kill their hero killed, so it’s safe?? Get it?)
And approval of patriotism means approval of rebellion, like in 1776? Or maybe approval of whatever the mob at the Capitol did, because they are presumably the “patriots” Trump is talking about?
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:06 amSammy, I agree, which is why I added on that I find it important that there’s no facts to support the opinion.
As to the violence aspect and the capacity of the opinion to predictably cause it, we probably disagree as to whether it was foreseeable before the events at the Capitol. In light of what happened, do you agree that continuing to parrot the notion that the election was stolen could predictably result in more events like the Capitol riot?
Johnny Agreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:07 amSo, just got political spam from some VA state senator who wants to be the GOP candidate for governor, doubling down on the DC insurrection. All the whaddabouts you’d expect and absolute denial that any wrong was done. Also, putting Babbitt up as a national hero. Everything in there but “Wolverines!”
Lincoln wept.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:07 am’
If you didn’t mention it, and I didn’t mention it, then why the hell are you talking about it as something that I’m worried about?
Johnny Agreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:09 amI’m not so concerned about a radio network muzzling this Levin person, as I am about no magazine doing a photo cover of the First Lady. Now, if that’s not cancel culture, I don’t what is. Actually, I don’t know what cancel culture is. Is it like environmental justice or net neutrality?
nk (1d9030) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:12 amThe assertion that the election was stolen is for sure a political opinion. Just like the holocaust didn’t happen, 9/11 was an inside job, and there’s a satan-worshiping-child trafficking-cannibalistic-pedophilia ring that Trump is about to expose are all also political opinions.
In addition to being political opinions they’re also unsupported by fact. At this point it’s safe to call them all lies.
The ‘The election was stolen’ lie was recently a main motivating factor for the group of terrorists that attacked the US capital attempting to disrupt the presidential certification and murdered a policeman.
I don’t think they lies should be censored by the government. I don’t think espousing those lies should get the average person banned from the popular internet platforms. But I think media companies are within their rights to protect their brands by telling on air talent that pushing debunked conspiracy theories isn’t Ok. I also think there’s a difference between nut jobs using twitter to push 9/11 trutherism and nut jobs using twitter to rally people around another violent attack.
Right now i see grifters like Ted Cruze pushing the lie that was used to justify violence last week at the same time he’s asking everyone to move on for ‘unity’.
I think a great first step would be the grifters who pushed the lie to admit they were lying. Just own it already.
An OK first step would be for the liars to save a little face and just come out and say “Now that I’ve looked at all the evidence I’m confident the election wasn’t determined by fraud.” But they won’t do that because they’re getting too much power and money from the outrage of their base at the lie they’ve sold them.
Time123 (306531) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:18 amThat the election was stolen isn’t a political opinion.
Sure it is, just like “Putin owns Trump” or “W was behind 9/11” or “Obama is a Kenyan Muslim” or “Marxism just hasn’t been done right” or “Hillary Clinton is a space alien.”
All kinds of opinions out there, some with more truth behind them than others. Given the way that Trump was running the table on election night, then suddenly the returns slowed and his leads all started collapsing under more and more absentee ballots, it is not hard for a partisan to conclude that something funny was going on. IF there was nothing behind it, so many people wouldn’t believe it.
A test: If you were watching the returns on election night, was there a point where you thought “Oh, F, he’s gonna win!”? If so, what do you think a Trump supporter thought, and what they thought when it turned around?
One of the things I have learned to do when faced with huge belief in something untrue is to try to figure out how they could believe that. This isn’t a fringe belief like 9/11 trutherism or veganism. It’s tens of millions of people. More like the numbers who believe in creationism. I think it’s a mistake to ignore them, or to patronize them. I expect, after the election, that some people in the affected states are going to make sure that there is a thorough investigation.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:19 amIs it like environmental justice or net neutrality?
I think we’ll be hearing more about those shortly.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:23 amRecord of Determination for the Temporary Closure of Public Facilities, Parking and Roads in Response to Threats to Visitors and Park Resources
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:27 amPursuant to 36 CFR § 1.5(a)(1) the National Mall and Memorial Parks is implementing temporary closures of National Park Service public facilities, parking areas and roadways in response to credible threats to visitors and park resources. Groups involved in the January 6, 2021 riots at the US Capitol continue to threaten to disrupt the 59th presidential inauguration on January 20, 2021. This includes the set up and execution of inaugural events, which occur in several park areas. In response, the National Park Service will suspend tours of the Washington Monument beginning January 11, 2021 through January 24, 2021 and may institute temporary closures of public access to roadways, parking areas and restrooms within the National Mall and Memorial Parks if conditions warrant, to protect public safety and park resources. These temporary closures may be extended if the conditions persist. The National Park Service will reopen areas as it determines that the conditions of concern are no longer present.
…….
These temporary closures are based upon a determination, in consultation with the local authorities, that such actions are necessary for the maintenance of public health and safety. These temporary closures will begin January 11, 2021 and will remain in effect through January 24, 2021, but may be extended if conditions persist.
……..
Exactly where does the government enter the picture when we’re talking about the media company?
Not all media companies of course. A radio network has little to fear from the Feds, so long as they obey general rules. But a dominant internet media company that hovers on the lip of anti-trust law? They might very well take it on their own to try to keep the powers that be happy. Twitter let Trump twit all kinds of garbage, right up until the moment telling him to “F off” would ingratiate them with the new guys without putting them at risk. Some things don’t need actual orders.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:28 amJohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 10:56 am
You
didn’t take the baitask the obvious question aboutbut I can’t help myself
Applying your rule of
and having all of the media companies at the time issue internal memos prohibiting abolitionists from questioning slavery because of the predictable consequences would have been slightly different from how history played out.
Now, it’s easy to say these people are nutjobs and Brown wasn’t or make a moral distinction that I wouldn’t disagree with. But everyone thinks the other side is full of nutjobs and a lot of the things you appreciate now are the consequences of gullible nuts believing it.
is correct and If Trump nukes Monte Carlo today isn’t even a decent B movie plotline.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:30 amWhat do you suppose the people with Body Armor, Guns and Flex Cuffs were planning to do if they found Nancy Pelosi? Several of the rioters made threats to harm her online ahead of the assault. Usually I would chalk that up to over-heated rhetoric on the internet. But a week later these men were part of the mob that overwhelmed capital police and were photographed in the house chamber.
So what do you think they would have done with those cuffs?
Time123 (306531) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:30 amThese temporary closures will begin January 11, 2021 and will remain in effect through January 24, 2021, but may be extended if conditions persist.
Hmmm. Something very bad may be happening. I hope whatever it is, that the facts are not just what the government wants to tell us. This sounds like the kind of thing a Free Press is there for.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:31 amHmmm. Something very bad may be happening. I hope whatever it is, that the facts are not just what the government wants to tell us. This sounds like the kind of thing a Free Press is there for.
There has already been coverage of threats to the inauguration.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:34 amKM @470-Looks like the Free Press is up on it:
Inauguration Day 2021: What now? Capitol riots, Trump supporter threats prompt safety concerns
…….
The inauguration of a new president, set for Jan. 20, typically poses one of the most enormous security challenges for the federal government and local police, as former presidents and foreign dignitaries gather to observe what – until Wednesday – represented the peaceful transfer of power at the very Capitol that was overrun.
ADL (formerly known as the Anti-Defamation League) said Thursday that extremists have already begun plotting their next coup attempt targeting Inauguration Day. These preparations are taking place on social media forums, including Twitter and YouTube, and on fringe forums popular with extremists.
“Reminder that the U.S. Presidential Inauguration day is on January 20th. That is the next date on the calendar that the Pro-Trump and other nationalist crowds will potentially converge on the Capitol again,” a white supremacist Telegram channel posted.
On Wimkin, another platform, a group calling itself “Million Militia March” issued this call: “IF OUR COUNTRY DIES on 1/20, it won’t be the only thing that dies. President Trump will die, they will hang him, if not by a rope they will end him in some way. Don Jr. too. Eric too. Ivanka. Barron. The First Lady. They will not leave ANY Trump free to avenge what they have done to their father. THEY FOUGHT FOR US. What are WE going to DO?”
……
Plans to wreak havoc on Inauguration Day were in the works long before Wednesday’s violence in the Capitol.
In a November YouTube video that has since been removed, Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio urged fellow members to show up on Jan. 20 to turn Biden’s inauguration into a “circus, a sign of resistance, a sign of revolution.”
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:38 am……
For some, it didn’t even rise to the level of opinion, much less conviction. It was a political posture that they thought would benefit them.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:40 amThe Q nutters are certainly planning something for January 20. The Lord’s Prayer has never sounded so sinister.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:44 am@463 Time123 (306531) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:18 am
I’ve thoughts along this vein…
I think we need to be careful what and who we assign blame.
I think we need to remember that those who perpetuated these riots have agency to their own actions. I’m unequivocally stating that those who illegally trespassed, and those whose direct actions leading the death of the officers should face federal prosecutions.
But, if we’re going to go after the rhetoric’s of certain politicians…if folks are going to blame the likes of Cruz, Hawley, et. & el. for what happened last Wednesday, then Bernie Sanders and the progressive left are also the blame for James Hodgkinson shooting up the GOPers on a baseball field.
I’m not sure I’m willing to go that far, as that gives such politician’s rhetoric undue influence over the rioter’s own agency.
I know last Wednesday has pissed off a lot of folks here, including me, that I think we need to have some more self-awareness in our passion when we start deliberating blame.
It’s obvious that the Cruz/Hawley didn’t want what happened last Wednesday at the Capital. Anyone arguing as such really should take a step back and reassess. Now, that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t face some political consequences for their rhetoric… as, free speech doesn’t also mean freedom from consequences (ie, losing committee chairs).
Just as Trump’s own rhetoric after the election won’t be (nor should it) prosecuted for incitement or sedition, but he should face political accountability like impeachment, as impeachment doesn’t require penal violations.
I think that’s why the actions by Twitter, Google, Amazon, etc… are so distasteful and concerning. It’s a pretext to go after the disfavored by misplacing blame.
whembly (a500a7) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:46 amWhat I’m concerned about is hundreds dead on the mall and officials denying it happened, or lying about why, or fudging the numbers. The worst thing that could happen is to bar the press from the area. I hope that nothing of the sort comes to pass, and suspect that these folks may be crazy, but they aren’t stupid. But government officials might be.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:47 amAs previously noted, I myself pointed out that my initial description was not properly limited by the caveat of actual evidence.
Here, we have a pretty clear instance of people claiming that the election was stolen as if it were factually true, and we know that people out there are acting on that belief.
I would, by the way, have no problem if these hosts were arguing that having a dictatorship is actually better (provided they weren’t telling people to go out and actually make it happen with violence). But there at least it would be an argument that one system is better than the other, not that our existing system was fraudulently circumvented.
johnnyagreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:50 amI agree with you. My point is that anyone who provided rhetorical support for the assault by spreading misinformation and helped convince people that the lie is true has some responsibility for it. Until those people have accepted that and done what they can to mitigate the damage I think their calls for ‘unity’ are really just an attempt to avoid blaming them for their part.
AFAIK Curz, Hawley and the others have no legal liability nor should they unless new information comes out. But they need to admit that what they were saying was false.
I encourage you to watch Bernie’s speech after the shooting of Scalise. He showed anger that the attack had happened, was unequivocal in denouncing it, and sounded ashamed that man was a fan of his. Much of my take is from his tone and delivery so if you’ve seen it and feel otherwise YMMV.
Time123 (ae9d89) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:54 amThe saddest thing here is that Trump is the one who betrayed them. Tweets aren’t action, and all they got were tweets. Their manufacturing and trades jobs aren’t back. China is still building our tech. Silicon Valley still has a most of their investments overseas. Illegal immigration has slowed, but not stopped. And Trump is as clueless about governing now as he was 4 years ago.
They would be better off finding someone capable of leading their charge. I think that Cruz has beclowned himself, but he’d be 10,000% better for them than Trump, since Cruz at least knows which levers to pull and dials to turn, unlike the Sorcerer’s Apprentice.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:54 amI don’t think they wanted it to happen in the sense of having the specific intent for that result. But I do think they were reckless in discarding it as a probable consequence (although I recognize reasonable people can disagree). But we’re crossing the line, for me, towards specific intent if they still keep up their rhetoric even knowing what happened.
Regarding your Bernie example, I would feel much differently about his potential culpability (and here I mean morally, not legally) if the gunman had been loitering outside the baseball field and Bernie grabbed a microphone and yelled, “Those people in there! They’re the ones who are to blame for your problems!”
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:55 amI largely agree with all this. I would also add that Twitter seems really stupid for getting rid of Trump but letting actual dictators (as opposed to wannabe dictators like Trump) stay on the platform. But Twitter’s exercise of their free speech rights in the sense of whom they wish to associate with rightly opens them up to criticism from others, like me and you, about how they exercise those rights. I’m certainly not hailing Twitter for their actions, and I don’t think they’re heroes for standing up to Trump or whatever. But I’m not losing sleep over it, and I think it’s far worse to suggest that they should be legally required to host Trump, or anyone else.
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:59 amHere, we have a pretty clear instance of people claiming that the election was stolen as if it were factually true, and we know that people out there are acting on that belief.
Does it bother you that more people believe the election was stolen than believe in natural evolution? (33% vs 32%)
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:00 pmTime123 (306531) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:30 am
I’m not sure if this is for me but that hasn’t stopped me before.
I think they intended harm. Sometimes people can intend harm, plan for it, and then not be able to carry through when face to face. But I’d charge any of these people with the strongest version of everything I could lay a fact pattern for.
With respect to the threats made online. If those were known about they should have been investigated at the time.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:00 pmThere are things I’d add, and if I have time later I’ll do so, but nothing I’d subtract. For now I’ll just say, THIS.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:01 pmAWS, Google, Apple and maybe Microsoft own nearly all of the cloud, where these things are all hosted now. Anyone else probably has to use services from one of the majors, which can be denied.
In short, there is no healthy market, at least in the first world.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:03 pmIt was a political posture that they thought would benefit them.
Perhaps they were representing their constituents. If 33% of Americans believe that the election was stolen, what does that say about Missourians?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:08 pmBother in what sense? I don’t care if 90% of Republicans believed that the election was stolen so long as they aren’t acting on it and the leaders of the party aren’t dictating their actions in light of a mere belief. I’d lament the ignorance, so I guess it’d bother me in that sense, but I wouldn’t particularly be worried about it.
Also, I think you have it backwards or are using a phrase (“natural evolution”) in a way that is unfamiliar to me. I think of “natural evolution” as the same thing as natural selection in that it refers to evolution caused by natural selection. Your saying that only 34% believe in that shocked me because it means 66% believe the opposite, that we have not evolved and have always existed in our present state. That number shocked me. An admittedly cursory search led to this:
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:11 pmNatural evolution, as opposed to God-directed evolution, which is apparently a hedge people use.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:12 pmjohnnyagreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:42 am
At the time popular opinion on slavery was, at best, mixed. It isn’t the point that slavery’s existence was an objective fact. It is the point that slavery needed to end even if that required violence. The moral argument that needed to be made was that it was worth the cost. We are where we are now because that argument was made instead of listening to people who said the cost of violence was too high.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:14 pmThat 2009 Pew Research study divided the question into:
Belief in evolution guided by supreme being 22%
Belief in evolution due to natural processes 32%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution#United_States
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:14 pmAt the time popular opinion on slavery was, at best, mixed.
It was indeed complicated. Circa 1845, northerners detested slavery (their economy would not work with slaves) and had outlawed it in their own states, but felt that they could not dictate to other states. Southerners supported it (it was the basis of their economy) but recognized that people in the north didn’t want it. This was a stable arrangement until the matter of slavery in the territories came up, which was a national question, not a state question. Particularly after the Mexican Cession of 1848.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:19 pmRecently I had a discussion with someone who was convinced that the election was stolen. He dislikes Trump on moral grounds but still thinks Dems lie about him.
I asked how he knew the election was stolen. “They caught them?” “Who?” “The government! It was the Dominion machines!” “Who caught whom? Doing what?” “It was all on Fox.” “Fox tends to spin things favorably for Trump.” “I don’t listen to CNN. They’re communists.” “They’re not always wrong, and what you hear on Fox is not always right.” “Well, maybe you have a point.”
Fortunately this was someone who thinks I’m smart (imagine that), so he let me mention a few things I had read about Dominion machines, mail-ins leaning Dem, etc. Most striking was this: I said there was nothing surprising about a Biden win when the polls had consistently shown him in the lead, for months. “I thought it was the opposite!” “Maybe someone on Fox showed a poll that had Trump leading, but if you had looked at other sources you would have seen something quite different.”
So the echo chamber was telling people that Trump was likely to win. Then it told them that a Biden win had to be fraudulent.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:21 pmIt is absolutely the point that slavery was an objective fact and the 2020 presidential election being stolen is not. Or, more precisely, I can see why you want it not to matter because your “gotcha!” works only if we can draw any kind of equivalence between the two examples. There being no valid comparison due to the aforementioned objective existence of one of these things (slavery) and the lack of any factual existence of the other (the stolen 2020 election), your “gotcha!” is a loser.
The reason that the media company is demanding its hosts stop talking about the election being stolen is because a sizable segment of lunatics is acting as if it were true and may well have killed government officials if given the chance. They, rather understandably, are trying to stop further violence. Like I said, your comparison is valid if we were talking about how the next step should be if the election were actually stolen. You can’t just skip right over to “is violence justified to end this thing?” when the “thing” is not actually true (unlike, again, slavery).
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:29 pmGood point, Whembly. Ted Cruz was spazzing out in a speech to these guys not long before they did what they did. That “we will not go quietly into the night” nonsense. I blame him.\
Yeah you’re right about that. If a major forum can’t even find a way to get hosted, that’s amazing and troubling, even if they are bad people. Not only for the reason that soon anyone who donates to Ted Cruz over his next opponent will be associated with beating a cop to death to overturn our election. I don’t want to ‘make terrorism work’ by trying to be accomodating to terrorism, but millions of folks will be radicalized the more they are marginalized. I’m not sure what the answer is, though. Amazon actually showed a lot of examples of stuff that violated their terms that Parler could have removed but wouldn’t. On some level it’s like Parler was an obnoxious troll hoping to be the victim.
Mostly I just want to see something blow up in Russia as an answer to their large role in these events.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:32 pm459. Johnny Agreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 11:07 am
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:42 pmIf Trump nukes Monte Carlo at 11:59 PM tonight, by midnight tomorrow he’ll also have nuked France, with Italy not far behind. So that’s 3 days. The way I figure it, if he picks the right targets he may have another 20 or 30 days left in office. In addition to Monaco, I’d advise avoiding Andorra, Liechtenstein and Four Corners until he’s gone.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:45 pmDidn’t get the blockquotes quite right in that last one.
Not really, even with the qualification “could.”
I think you need a great deal more than merely saying that something wrong happened. There needs to be some kind of endorsement of the rioters. Even after the riot.
Rush Limbaugh is continuing to assert that the election was stolen. But I don’t think he’s instigating violence. He also goes into how Trump’s speech was not incitement.
The New York Times, in spite of a major front page story today about the ignored warnings (which all preceded Trump’s speech) has a story that tried to prove that Trump’s words encouraged violence.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/10/us/trump-speech-riot.html
Bt if there was such an intent, the speech was intended to put people off their guard, not incite random people to act in an uncoordinated manner..
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:57 pm497. The only thing Trump is doing is getting tough on China.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-11/trump-s-last-days-bring-fresh-turmoil-to-u-s-china-relations
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 1:04 pmI think McCarthy is pretty spot-on here:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/01/democrats-need-a-do-over-on-their-impeachment-article/
Particularly, on what the impeachment ought to be:
whembly (a500a7) — 1/11/2021 @ 1:05 pmDustin (4237e0) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:32 pm
Was that at the wildprotest.com rally on the Capitol grounds’ northeast side? Cruz is not mentioned as one of the scheduled speakers in the December 31, 2020 Washington Examiner article.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 1:09 pm@hembly
a is good but b and c misinterpret events.
It could very well be that the announced in advanced demonstration were part of a conspiracy to swarm into the Capitol building and cause Congress to recess, but this requires investigation.
If Trump’s speech had anything to do with what happened, it was to cause people concerned with security at the Capitol not to be concerned.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 1:14 pmRadegunda (20775b) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:21 pm
A lot of people thought the polls wee wrong, because polling is difficult, and in fact they were.
The election was a lot closer for Biden than the polling showed and the Democrats were expected to make gains in the House and retake the Senate.
You’re friend probably thought the polls favored Trump because he had paid no attention to pre-election polls and nobody mentioned any pre-election polls after the election.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 1:20 pmJohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 12:29 pm
You’re trying very hard to work around my point. Let’s try again.
Slavery is an objective fact. The corresponding fact in this analogy is that we had an election.
Now, trigger warning; that slavery had to end and that the election wasn’t stolen are not objective facts and those are the comparable elements of the analogy. They are beliefs. Here’s how you can tell. Neither side can “prove it”. One side can assert that there is no evidence that it was stolen and the other can say the same thing. This isn’t saying there is no reason to believe one side over the other but that doesn’t turn them into objective facts. If you can’t establish something as a clear fact you can weigh the evidence of one side against the other. How do we give people reason to believe one side over the other? We talk about it, we debate it. Having an honest and convincing debate requires two sides. The push to only allow one side only plays into confirmation bias.
So, the issue isn’t which belief justified violence or which is morally correct. The issue is using the threat, or fear, of violence to only allow one view. On slavery that would have meant allowing the threat of violence to shutdown discussion of abolishing it. You can’t retroactively say but slavery was bad and therefore it was valid to discuss it because that’s exactly what would have been shutdown. I wasn’t trying to gotcha beyond giving you an example of a political discussion you wouldn’t have wanted shutdown.
Now, I’m in no way saying the election was stolen or challenging any aspect of the election, all hail our democratic process, but “we’ve got no evidence of fraud” and “we’ve got some extremist to deal with” is no reason for the reaction I’m seeing.
frosty (470cf8) — 1/11/2021 @ 1:33 pmThe Trumper argument is that because polls were somewhat off, therefore they must have been even wronger than they actually were.
That makes no sense at all.
Then some Trumpers who had said “polls are useless” took the position that a post-election poll for “most admired person” was proof that the majority of voters really wanted Trump.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/11/2021 @ 1:39 pm🤡
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/11/2021 @ 1:53 pmI’m not trying to “work around” your point at all. My point is that whatever “point” you have is abject nonsense. There’s nothing to “work around” because there’s nothing of substance to circumvent. You’re seriously claiming that arguing about whether slavery is or is not immoral–arguments made with reference to the fact that slavery actually existed–is THE SAME THING as arguing whether or not we should install Trump as president because the election MIGHT have been stolen.
The quoted paragraph is just further silliness. You are trying to treat as equivalents arguments regarding the proposition “Slavery is immoral and it should end” with “The election was stolen.” You then suggest that because we can’t ever know FOR SURE that the election was not stolen (gotta love just casually throwing in “hey, you have to meet the impossible-t0-meet standard of proving a negative”), they’re totally the same thing. Sure thing!
That’s a deeply silly claim. I can’t know for sure that my entire life is nothing but a simulation in an advanced alien race’s program. Or maybe I’m the product of a fever dream experienced by Bob Newhart. Surely, you can see how someone would conclude I’m not a very serious person if I said, “You know, we should act as if those things are true! Let’s just murder everyone that looks at me wrongly, because it’s possible that person is not actually real! What? You disagree? CAN YOU PROVE I AM NOT A FEVER DREAM!?” Checkmate!
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 2:07 pmFrosty, You’re ignoring the fact that “The election was stolen” was used as the justification for violence last week and is still being used to justify further violence. Further, I see no evidence that the people pushing that conspiracy theory are at all interested in facts or finding the truth.
They’re like flat earthers and people who believe in MLM scams. It’s pointless.
I agree with you, the government should not censor that speech. But that doesn’t mean you and I are obliged to put up signs in our yards supporting that speech. Nor should Twitter have to provide a platform for people like Lin Wood to to sell that lie.
Much like a newspaper in 1855 didn’t have to run adds for slave auctions, Twitter doesn’t have to give Trump a platform lie. The fact that I think they made the wrong call banning him doesn’t eliminate their property rights.
(i don’t think what Trump is doing is equivalent to slavery, but I’m sticking with your analogy)
Time123 (306531) — 1/11/2021 @ 2:16 pmsoon anyone who donates to Ted Cruz over his next opponent will be associated with beating a cop to death to overturn our election.
Or even those who donated to his LAST election.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 2:26 pmYes, but it’s actually even worse than that: in lieu of the facts, or even finding out the facts, they assume THEIR facts are the real facts. If the argument was that there’s no actual evidence of fraud such that would justify overturning the results, but we should keep looking for it, fine. But the wannabe dictators out there are saying they get to stay in power even without establishing that there was fraud. How neat! How is that to be accomplished? Oh, I don’t know, wink wink. Just make sure to stop the steal, wink wink! After all, someone has to be President…and it can’t be the guy who “won” the election, wink wink wink!
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 2:35 pmSo, Parler is suing Amazon, on a number of counts. IANAL but it does not sound like they are without an argument.
Among other things, they claim that the action is intended to save Twitter from competition. However you view that claim, they point out that Twitter contains many more of the types of posts that Amazon complained about on Parler.
They also complain that Amazon notified the press before they notified Parler. They claim both anti-trust violations and breach of contract (the contract requires 30 days notice).
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 2:38 pmThe simple reasoning for the fraud beliefs:
1) They are solidly behind Trump. He did get 75 million votes. Not all of those were not-Biden.
2) When they went to bed on election night, Trump had won every state that he had needed and was called, and was leading in the rest of them.
3) When they woke up and looked, it was trending away.
4) They don’t trust government (but believe everything Trump says).
5) Easy-peasy conclusion: Enemy action.
I’m pretty sure than many of them were there before Trump opened his yap.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 2:45 pmParler suit:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/29095511/1/parler-llc-v-amazon-web-services-inc/
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/11/2021 @ 2:48 pmAnd Glenn Greenwald claims that none of the people arrested for their part in what happened at the Capitol used Parler.
They did use Facebook, however.
https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1348619731734028293
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 2:54 pmHere’s what Donald Trump has to say about it.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/11/2021 @ 3:04 pmActually, wait, he doesn’t say that none of them used Parler at all, but Facebook was the place where it was organized. (after all, Parler is new, and got its boost after the election)
505. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/11/2021 @ 1:39 pm
That’s why they don’t make that argument. They don’t talk about polls at all. I just mentioned polls in the context of the person being mistaken aboutt what the polls said.
The Trump argument was rally size, who was leading as the votes were counted and that it couldn’t have been random that Trump was in the lea and then results came in that tipped a state to Biden (they’re right, it wasn’t random – it wasn’t a sign of cheating either) and selected comparative election results.
How could Trump have lost Georgia when he won every other southern state? And other alleged political paradoxes.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 3:08 pm516. Actually, wait, he doesn’t say that none of them used Parler at all,
Glenn Greenwald.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 3:10 pmThis gives a clue as to what Trump wanted January 6.
Note: This makes no sense.
https://projects.propublica.org/politwoops/user/realDonaldTrump
That was maybe one of the tweets Twiter demanded he delete to restore his account.
Now….he wanted a delay in order to “give States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify.”
Now what gave him the idea that that could happen? It wasn’t even legally possible!
Now that’s why I say that there were people lying to Donald Trump about strategy.
By the way does anyone know the time zone of his tweets?
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 3:18 pmThis includes Donald Trump’s tweets about Mike Pence on January 6. He makes the claim that states wanted to “correct” teir Electral votes, which is not true of course.
https://reason.com/volokh/2021/01/11/grounds-for-impeachment
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 3:27 pmI’m speaking of how Trumpers respond to anyone pointing out that pre-election polling undercuts their belief that a Trump win was virtually pre-ordained, and taken away only by fraud.
I have said that a Biden win should not have been considered so shocking when polling showed it to be the most likely outcome, and then a Trumper would respond: “But the polls were wrong!” Because the polls overestimated the Dem advantage, though less so in the presidential race than in congressional races. Trumpers have tried to turn that inaccuracy of degree into evidence that the polls were totally wrong in the direction of the advantage they predicted, and therefore Trump must have been the people’s choice.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/11/2021 @ 3:33 pmTrumpers have tried to make the surprises in congressional races vis-a-vis polling into evidence that Trump must have been cheated.
Radegunda (20775b) — 1/11/2021 @ 3:36 pmTime123 (306531) — 1/11/2021 @ 2:16 pm
That there are lies being used to justify violence seems to be a selective problem.
It’s not so much that I’m ignoring it as I’m trying to make a point about the value of leaving open discussion without at the same time making a value judgment about the underlying arguments. Moving the line about what discussions should be automatically closed down is dangerous. It was probably unwise to start with the slavery example. Another example might have been less emotionally triggering.
There’s always an excuse for fewer rights. No-knock warrants are needed or bad guys go free. Stop and frisk policies make people safer. Going to foreign countries and rounding up brown guys that speak funny will keep us safe.
You’re fooling yourself if you think we can go through social media and places like Cumulus Media and make sure this idea isn’t used to justify further violence. Can you see a place where you’d draw the line? There is still text messaging and email. All of this reminds me of the meme about the guy standing in front of a burning house with the caption “I saw a spider”.
Why should someone like Lin Wood even be allowed to buy food at a grocery store? You and I aren’t required to do business with him. Why should anyone? It’s not illegal and no one can be “forced” too. He’s a danger after all.
I’ll try to do this as nicely as I can because I respect you; it would be easier in person. This “front yard” thing is just a scripted talking point. It’s a meme that gets repeated. You’ve got better critical thinking skills than that. Whether you agree with me or not think past that. We just spent a year under a lockdown that didn’t give a d#mn about private property rights. Tomorrow you could be “obligated” to put up any number of signs, especially about COVID, and not only would people be putting them up but they’d be all up in anyone else’s business who didn’t.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 4:01 pm521. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/11/2021 @ 3:36 pm
You heard that argument being made?
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:05 pmYes, frosty, if Lin Wood goes into a grocery store and starts yelling that the food is stolen and the assistant manager should face a firing squad, they can refuse to sell him food, yes, yes, they can, the fascists, and it’s a crying shame, what happened to the First Amendment and fundamental human rights, using hunger as a weapon like that, are we living in America or in Yemen, and is this why the Pilgrims chartered the Mayflower?
nk (1d9030) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:13 pmBesides 174, there was another even closer precedent for this, in 1783:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Mutiny_of_1783
They only wanted money.
See also:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/10/us/washington-dc-statehood.html
By the way, I couldn’t find this New York Times article I remembered reading today using Google – I had to use Bing.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:19 pm415. I wrote:
The Democrats are not going to do this. Now the plan is to immediately send this to the Senate (and they’ll try split shifts, which i s very workable)
It looks like that the Democrats are insisting, n their article of impeachment, that Trump’s speech endangered Congress, even though this is clearly not so, and news accounts are full of how much planning there was for this, and well before Trump’s speech. This can only lead to an acquittal. But maybe that’s what Nancy Pelosi wants.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:24 pmnk (1d9030) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:13 pm
Ah, is that the new rule? Things change so fast. Before, it was pretty open-ended.
I need to rethink those rants about my ISP though.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:29 pmAlternatively: it’s not a meme but basic principles of constitutional law. I’d love to write in a brief someday: “Opposing counsel uses ‘precedent’ to support his point, but really, isn’t precedent just scripted talking points propagated through the years?”
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:46 pmFrosty, thank you for the thoughtful comment. You gave me a lot to think about, but this part i want to reply to:
My position is that the person who owns the means of communication get’s to make this call and we all get to criticize their choice. 😀
I fully agree that grocery stores can reserve the right to refuse service (within existing laws). If you can show me that this is resulting in Lin Wood (or any individual) being in danger of starving I’ll reconsider.
Time123 (306531) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:00 pmJohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 5:46 pm
basic principles of constitutional law
Is it really? It seems like you might want to consider any elements of property law that apply. I could be overthinking it.
You should try that in an HOA case. I’d like to see you establish that an HOA can not in fact prevent you from having your donkey-shaped mailbox because it clearly expresses your political views.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:02 pm….???? I am genuinely puzzled. What are you talking about here?
I’m very confused. You seem to be quite upset that a media company is telling its hosts what it can or cannot talk about, and I have no idea why you think a HOA being able to do the same thing is not just another example of the exact same phenomenon. Why would I argue that a HOA CAN’T do that?
Johnny Agreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:10 pmTime123 (306531) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:00 pm
No concerns about the telephone company then?
So, someone would need to show actual damages? No concern about something like coercion or a chilling effect?
You are willing to give corporations a lot more power over you than I am with only the free market to give you any safety. Corporations just aren’t that important.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:16 pmThe telephone company is specifically a common carrier.
Section 230 says they don’t have to choose between being a common carrier – and moderating nothing, not even pornography; or being legally responsible for everything that is posted on their site, like a newspaper publisher.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:32 pmJohnny Agreeable (c49787) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:10 pm
I’m sorry. It was a winding path.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:35 pmSammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:32 pm
Yes, the question is would Time123, or anyone, care if they weren’t. His comment about “he who owns the things decides” seemed open-ended.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/11/2021 @ 6:45 pmdominion’s lawsuit against Sidney Powell:
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.225699/gov.uscourts.dcd.225699.1.0_2.pdf
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 7:23 pmWCBS-TV just ran another New York City dot gov get tested for Covid commercial!
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/11/2021 @ 8:34 pmBut at least that commercial didn;t ask all New Yorkers to get tested weekly.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/12/2021 @ 3:54 amFrosty, Good points that I failed to fully articulate in my short comment.
The general rule is that people get to use their property as they see fit. It’s a good general rule, but there are exceptions. Phone companies, by which I assume you mean old style land lines, were one such exception because they’d been given a monopoly on the distribution system and were at the time a semi-public utility. Today there’s a lot more competition, but I wanted to answer the point I thought you were making, rather then respond glibly.
You have to show me that it’s a real problem and not a hypothetical problem found at the end of a slippery slope before I’ll move to “The government should restrict people’s property rights.”
I do have concerns about coercion and chilling effects. I also have concerns with a stance that people can’t use their property as they would like. These are competing goods.
If the corner bar decides that Lin Wood is just too big a jerk to have as a regular, but 20 other bars don’t give a rip I don’t see it as an actual problem.
Now if we put laws, regulations, and social pressure in place that results in him living in a tent under an overpass outside of town (Which we have done with people on the sex offender registry) I think the results would merit a look at what we’re doing.
It would be great if this launched a unified effort to increase competition.
Time123 (69b2fc) — 1/12/2021 @ 5:29 amTime123 (69b2fc) — 1/12/2021 @ 5:29 am
At that point it’s too late. Once we weed out everyone who won’t comply with this demand the next round will be easier. The slope isn’t that slippery.
We’re already doing that for less. The evidence against mass lockdowns is there but we’re more than happy to restrict both property and constitutional rights.
I keep hearing the general rules about private property and constitutional rights of corporations and seeing all sorts of exceptions were the general rules don’t apply.
Would you have the same position if this were BLM? If private companies were consistent BLM wouldn’t have a platform and they’d be limited to handing out flyers on the street. The only thing preventing that is the opinion of a few billionaires and oligarchs.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/12/2021 @ 7:23 amThis is rather like saying, “A police officer generally has to get a warrant for a blood draw in a suspected DUI. So they should generally have to get a warrant for an automobile search, too!” You’re mish mashing things in a way that is legally incomprehensible.
The lockdowns and restrictions for COVID-19 are all premised on the governmental interests involved in preventing its spread, and you also need to look at what rights are being restricted in comparison to those interests. It’s unhelpful to just say “lockdowns” because that encompasses a huge range of things. You can’t just say “These two things that are completely different have different outcomes, so checkmate!” if you want someone to take you seriously.
Time can answer for themself, but the answer is pretty clear: the nonsensical ways in which private companies enforce their own policies is generally completely irrelevant when those policies involve using their non-common carrier platforms. If Patterico wants to ban me on the grounds that he hates the name “Johnny” but lets other people comment with the name “John”, that’s complete nonsense. It’s also completely irrelevant.
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 1/12/2021 @ 7:43 amThere are lots of examples.
If you offer public accommodations (like a mall) You can’t refuse service based on race, gender, ethnicity, or religion. But you can based on how they’re dressed and how they behave.
If you’re a semi-public utility you have even less freedom.
If the government deems and issue a public health concern they can restrict your rights.
If the government deems there to be a state of emergency (eg. the dam break or there’s a fire) there are exceptions made.
It’s a good general rule, but you’re right there are exceptions. The existence of exceptions doesn’t mean the rule is bad. It just means we found a situation where we can’t stand the outcome of the rule. In the case of civil rights we couldn’t accept the continuation of an apartheid state. I think we need to be extremely skeptical when the government wants to make exceptions to good rules. You pointed out a recent case point on public health.
I’ve read but haven’t researched for myself that Twitter did some banning of accounts that were encouraging violence this summer. I have no problem with that. I like free speech but I can see why a company might not want their platform used to plan encourage violence.
If tomorrow they wanted to ban Antifa/BLM/Flat Earth/Anti-Vax/Pro 2nd amendment my position would be the same. That I don’t think it’s what they should do, but it’s their right to use their property as they see fit.
Time123 (b87ded) — 1/12/2021 @ 7:47 amFrosty, What’s your proposed solution? If it’s that tech companies should be condemned for doing this thing they have the right to do then our difference of opinion is very minor, if any.
If your solution is that there should be some kind of law or change to regulations or coercion by the state I’m interested in what you think would be a better system.
Time123 (b87ded) — 1/12/2021 @ 7:51 amTime123 (b87ded) — 1/12/2021 @ 7:47 am
I respect that but I suspect for many other people this is said with the confidence that it won’t get tested on the issues they care about. Many other people are more than happy to hide their hypocrisy behind this fig leaf.
Time123 (b87ded) — 1/12/2021 @ 7:51 am
Social media like twitter, facebook, etc. should be common carriers. Individuals posting there should be responsible/liable for the content of their posts. I think the legal rules for what speech is prohibited should be used instead of arbitrary ones. Or (and this isn’t my preference) they should be a publisher, pre-screen all content, and take responsibility for it.
This isn’t coercing them to do anything other than not discriminate on whatever they decide. This doesn’t require any new law other than repealing the law that gives them an artificial exception to the publisher/carrier distinction. If companies are unwilling to do that they don’t have to offer the service or they can go to another country.
This isn’t unique to social media. They aren’t special. We created this distinction for them at law relatively recently. We decide all the time how companies are required to do business and we place far more burden on companies than don’t restrict speech.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/12/2021 @ 9:58 amI obviously have no way to prove it, but I’ll point out that if you want to search my comments here you’re not going to find me saying different things for the different riots. I have some history of consistency.
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Several points.
1. Individuals are already responsible for what they post. If I say something defamatory here I can be sued. Patterico cannot.
2. This rule change will probably not result in any of the changes you’re looking for wrt conservative/liberal. What it will most likely do is create platforms with extremely aggressive moderation and ones with no moderation. The latter would probably have a lot of porn and insults on it.
3. This would probably entrench existing platforms with the money to do better moderation through more human review and the money to fight off frivolous suits.
But 2 and 3 are supposition on my part.
Time123 (306531) — 1/12/2021 @ 10:08 amIt looks like Parler found a new home. This is good, and supports my contention that the free market would solve this problem.
Time123 (306531) — 1/12/2021 @ 10:09 amFrosty, wanted to add i’m really enjoying the conversation.
Time123 (306531) — 1/12/2021 @ 10:12 amTime123 (306531) — 1/12/2021 @ 10:08 am
I tried to make a clear distinction and I wasn’t being sarcastic.
These are practical points. Whether they are true or not it’s still true that the general rule we’re talking about doesn’t hold.
1. This is correct but not because of the general rule. It’s true because of the artificial rule we’ve created in 230. I haven’t read the local TOS but for Twitter I think they own any content posted. You don’t think it’s odd that they own the post but aren’t responsible for it and you don’t but are? Without 230 our host would do exactly what he’s doing now, effectively moderate the system as a publisher. Twitter could claim they are a common carrier and the only thing that would change is they wouldn’t be able to discriminate. What I’m suggesting is that online media shouldn’t get the benefit of both and the restrictions of neither.
2. I’m not looking for changes wrt conservative/liberal. I think I’m seen as arguing against the left and the assumption is I’m on the right. There are more options than that. I’m not that worried about pron. There are other rules that cover that and it won’t take over everything when we’re not looking. As far as insults go, so what? We’re justifying unrestricted limitations on online speech by tech monopolies to avoid being insulted? If I’m not in favor of it based on the claims of safety then I’m already prepared for the insults.
3. I’m not sure what will change the monopoly/oligarchy situation we’ve got now.
I’m willing to gut 230 and see what happens. Torch it and let online forums pick between being a publisher and a common carrier. It may not resolve all problems but I haven’t heard any compelling reasons for keeping it and the situation it’s helping create with social media is worse than the alternative.
Time123 (306531) — 1/12/2021 @ 10:12 am
Same.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/12/2021 @ 10:56 amfrosty (f27e97) — 1/12/2021 @ 10:56 am
I rather doubt that. He is free to maintain his own standard of moderation, without being worried about being legally responsible for either the content of comments or inconsistency in standards enforcement. And he moderates on his own time. Without 230, I imagine he would just shut down the comments section to spare himself the guaranteed headaches and possible liability.
We’re justifying people being able to exercise their right to decide how their property is used — which is, yes, a form of speech right. It’s also a value that used to be taken as a given in a civilized society.
Building alternatives. It may take some time, but that’s how you do it. Facebook and Twitter were once alternative social media sites. Amazon once ran an alternative web hosting service. Google was once just another alternative search engine.
If that happens, we’ll probably never see each other again. At least not knowingly.
Demosthenes (d7fc81) — 1/13/2021 @ 1:51 pm