Today’s Republican Party
[guest post by Dana]
Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffesnperger discussed the phone call from President Trump this morning on Good Morning America:
When asked what he was thinking, Raffensperger said “for the last two months, we’ve been fighting a rumor whack-a-mole. It was pretty obvious very early on that we debunked every one of those theories that have been out there, but President Trump continues to believe them.”
Stephanopoulos also asked Raffensperger if he felt “pressure” at the moment when Trump asked him to “find 11,780 votes” and help him overturn Joe Biden’s victory in the state.
“No,” Raffenperger answered. While he spoke of how the coronavirus pandemic posed complications for the election process, he also said “everything we’ve done for the last 12 months follows the constitution of the state of Georgia, follows the United States Constitution, follows state law.”
Raffensperger said “I never believed it was appropriate to speak to the president” before the call because of ongoing litigations. Nonetheless, he affirmed his contradiction of Trump’s conspiracy theories once again by saying “the data he has is just plain wrong.”
Raffensperger maintained that he had never spoken to Trump prior to their conversation on Saturday.
“No, I never believed it was appropriate to speak to the president. But he pushed out — I guess he had his staff push us. They wanted to call,” Raffensperger said.
Raffensperger described his office as “in a litigation mode with the president’s team against the state of Georgia. And whenever you say anything, then you do have to have your advisers there. They have to have their advisers there, with lawyers.”
Although “I just preferred not to talk to someone when we’re in litigation,” Raffensperger continued, “we took the call, and we had a conversation.”
The president “did most of the talking. We did most of the listening,” he said. “But I did want to make my points, that the data that he has is just plain wrong. He had hundreds and hundreds of people he said that were dead that voted. We found two. That’s an example of just — he has bad data.”
…
On Monday, Raffensperger declined to say whether he personally found Trump’s requests in their conversation to be lawful.
“I’m not a lawyer. All I know is that we’re going to follow the law, follow the process,” he said. “Truth matters. And we’ve been fighting these rumors for the last two months.”
Reportedly, White House switchboard operators “made 18 previous attempts to have Trump speak with Raffensperger before the call took place.
Anyway, I found this simply astounding: Even though Raffensperger (who we know to be an honorable and honest broker) and his wife have received death threats since the election, and even though Trump made the outrageous phone call in which he told Raffensperger the specific number of votes that the secretary of state needed to find for him, it appears that Raffensperger would still likely vote for Trump because of party loyalty. It is hard to wrap my mind around the belief that party loyalty supersedes all else – especially when that “all else” is unlawful, unethical, un-American, corrupt, and coming from within your own house:
Stephanopoulos concluded the interview by asking Raffensperger if he would vote for Trump all over again after everything that has happened. Raffensperger hedged on the question by noting Trump isn’t on the 2024 ballot yet, but “I support Republicans. I always have and I probably always will.”
Georgian Republicans at large also continue to willfully ignore what is happening and look the other way when it comes to Trump and the Republican Party. Unbelievably, Patricia Murphy of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports:
Republicans don’t trust the election, potentially dampening turnout. Not one Republican voter Murphy has spoken to since Election Day believes that President-elect Biden won. “Not one, not a person,” she said. “And many of them don’t even think he’ll be inaugurated on January 20.”
One can find example after example after example after example of prominent faces in the Republican Party continuing to cover for Trump by ignoring the content of the phone call and diverting attention away from it by feigning indignation that the call was recorded and leaked to The Post. Of course, for the lawmakers doing this, self-preservation can easily be disguised as a nobler, greater good...for the party.
All of this reminded me of these smart observation from October about Trump’s takeover of the Republican Party, which is now complete:
Trump’s takeover…has been as one-dimensional as it has been total. In the space of one term, the president has co-opted virtually every power center in the Republican Party, from its congressional caucuses to its state parties, its think tanks to its political action committees. But though he has disassembled much of the old order, he has built very little in its place. “You end up with this weird paradox where he stands to haunt the G.O.P. for many years to come, but on the substance it’s like he was never even there,” said Liam Donovan, a Republican strategist.
During Trump’s presidency, his party has become host to new species of fringe figures…
But Trump’s influence is also reflected, in a more pedestrian but equally revealing way, in the ease with which George Kruse and others like him have transposed Trumplike signifiers onto otherwise utterly conventional suburban Republican platforms. Republican voters are essentially the same people who voted Republican before Trump; the party’s politicians are still mostly the same people, hiring mostly the same strategists. But their relationships to the party now flow through a single man, one who has never offered a clear vision for his political program beyond his immediate aggrandizement...
Republicans should not forget that the Republican Party very intentionally committed this act of self-sabotage, for which Americans have been paying every day for the past four years*:
In January 2016, Republican lawmakers gathered at a harborside Marriott in Baltimore for their annual conference retreat. Paul Ryan, then the speaker of the House, would preview his “Better Way” agenda, a collection of policy proposals addressing the economy, national security, the social safety net. In scheduled sessions, members would debate the finer points of the agenda that Ryan stressed would transform the G.O.P. from an “opposition party” to a “proposition party.” And in unscheduled interludes, they would consider how their party’s presidential primary could very well come down to a contest between a reality-television star, whom they hated, and Senator Ted Cruz, whom they also hated.
By the end of the retreat, many had privately agreed that the best way to achieve Ryan’s proposition-party ambitions in such a scenario was to nominate the candidate with the fewer proposals. As one Republican congressman explained to me at the time, when I was reporting on the conference for National Review Online, Cruz had his own “divisive” ideas (though in fact they were not so different from Ryan’s own). But with Trump, “there’s not a lot of meat there,” the congressman said. If Trump became the party’s candidate, he serenely predicted, he would “be looking to answer the question: ‘Where’s the beef?’ And we will have that for him.”
The GOP willingly did this. They chose Trump. Everything he has said and has done to undermine democracy, all of his un-American behavior, his corruption, dishonesty, self-serving narcissistic plotting – where everything is up for grabs and nothing is off-limits – is on them. Trump owns them. Especially now.
[* At the time of the election, a lot of us already knew who Trump was. There was no doubt. With regard to Cruz, a lot of us didn’t know who he would turn out to be when push came to shove.]
–Dana
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Good morning.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/4/2021 @ 10:23 amWith regard to Cruz, a lot of us didn’t know who he would turn out to be when push came to shove.
Given his primary performance, many more did:
‘In what will henceforth be remembered as Ted’s Terrible Tuesday, Ted Cruz (R-Texas) bricked big in the night’s primaries and in an even more damning misstep, he completely botched a re-enactment of the timeless movie “Hoosiers” when he called a basketball hoop a “ring.”. Cruz chose to hold a rally outside Indianapolis at the gym where the iconic basketball movie was filmed.’ -source, USAToday
“Basketball ring.” In Indiana no less.
Ever Canadian.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/4/2021 @ 10:42 amBut what about the actual substance of the post, DCSCA?
Dana (cc9481) — 1/4/2021 @ 10:48 amI must confess that I don’t understand what the current Republican party stands for. Heck, I’ll say it, Bill Clinton was more conservative than these folks, especially in regards to fiscal sanity which is my primary concern, since I feel that allows the rest to flow.
Also, in terms of policy, it starts with the top, recognizing reality and tailoring policy to the real world is important, I can’t believe I’m going to say things…but Bill Clinton is a model for honesty compared to these yahoos. Good lord, I cannot believe that is true, but it is objectively true.
I know, judges, but in every other thing, I can’t really suppose a scenario that Hillary Clinton wouldn’t have been more conservative than Trump. Specifically when the house and senate would have been maintained in Republican hands.
Trump has shifted his party into this weird ground where it creates an objectively activist-conservative judicial philosophy, but is more likely to make the economy less free, make citizens life less free, and has completely decided to punt on international diplomacy, but subsidizing the defense industry more, while also withdrawing.
I don’t get it, I guess a third party would better align with interests, and it’s probably not the Republicans kicking these people out. It will be Trump creating the Trump party and pulling his followers, like twitter and Jesus, over his party. Cool I say.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/4/2021 @ 10:53 amThere are basically only two votes that i’ve cast where i’ve ended up deciding that I wish i’d voted differently.
One of them is my vote for DeBlasio as Mayor in 2013.
The other is my vote for Cruz as President in 2016.
aphrael (4c4719) — 1/4/2021 @ 10:56 amI feel the same way but also realize it is happening to the Democrat party as well, only Democrats are not as far along. I have a feeling we’ve seen the last of a “centrist” Democrat president (Biden), even though if you look at the Democrat Party platform, it is not centrist in the least and as Joey said, he’s the party.
Frankly, the political parties have lurched away from the center and towards their respective extremes.
The first party that gets their wits back will probably enjoy a few years of easy political victories.
Hoi Polloi (093fb9) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:00 amWho Goes Nazi?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:04 amI think Raffensperger is more or less your neighbor next door type Republican, voting straight party line in every election. They certainly don’t exhibit the foul behavior typical of many rabid Trumpers, and are generally honorable in character. I have some family members like that. They are mild mannered center-righters who vote GOP every election, due to the party coming closer to their beliefs than the Democrats.
As for Cruz, I supported his candidacy for President in 2016. I do remember hearing some doubts and concerns about the guy here and there from some GOPers. I believed at the time that it was just some sour grapes about who I thought was an anti-establishment constitutional conservative. As it turns out, they were right and I was wrong. I do believe though that Cruz was pretty solid in the 3 or so years as Senator prior to his presidential run. I think he let his ambitions compromise him from the time he endorsed Trump, to the present. As of now, the vote for Cruz in 2016 GOP primary is the one vote that I regret the most that I cast in my life.
HCI (92ea66) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:04 amTo be fair, I think that Ted Cruz would have been a much better president that Trump. Hard not to be. He also would not have had Trump as party leader and would not have had the temptations he has succumbed to. Obviously, he was a weaker man morally that we thought, but being president, rather than having to live under one, is a totally different thing.
That was 2016. Ted Cruz in 2024 is a non-starter, now that’s he’s become the bully’s toady.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:08 amI hadn’t considered that, but now that I do, I can see it happening. However, it will be a limited group. I refuse to believe that a majority of right-leaning people who identify as Republican or hold to the standard Republican platforms, would be willing to follow the cult leader to his new party. But recent history suggests otherwise.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:08 amWhat killed Ted was his multi-session debate with Rubio about some inside-Senate amendment strategy. It became clear that both of them had been captured by the system and they lost the interest of the anti-DC crowd.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:11 amI guess a third party would better align with interests
The Peronists have lasted for decades in Argentina.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:12 amI am nowhere near that pessimistic. I think Trump will go the way of the pet rock and mood ring sooner rather than later.
Will the GOP remain the party of rich jerkoffs? Definitely. When hasn’t it been?
The party of racist white trash? Not with Trump gone. They’ll crawl back under their rocks.
nk (1d9030) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:21 am@10
I wouldn’t follow him to the new party. But, I can see Trump vying for a 3rd party.
I’m a Republican, through and through. I don’t any party viability other than the current Democrat/Republican split. Let him have his party, might be a good thing to have that sort of clarity.
whembly (c30c83) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:27 amI can’t see anything but the GOP drifting for the foreseeable future, especially since Trump will likely…unfortunately…not recede as is customary for ex-Presidents. As the article suggests, his “essence” is just too entrenched throughout the party….and he will inevitably use his status to continue the grift, probably pushing one of his sons more into the limelight. Right-wing media has given no indication that it is ready to release the golden goose and so we’re stuck with more cycles of tedious rationalizations. It’s sad but maybe things have to scrape the bottom…even more…before a new way emerges. I still find it remarkable that the GOP couldn’t advance any alternatives to Trumpism. Things like this are entertaining until they suddenly aren’t. Until we hit a crisis, Trump-fans are having too much fun being glorious.
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:31 amMy wife and I were talking about this, she thinks probably 50M of the 75M Trump voters are just your standard (R) ticket voters, then there’s probably 10M that are those middle of the road voters that change depending on “stuff”, and the other 15M are not voters, they are Trump people, didn’t vote before, are the most vocal, are on facebook a lot, and least likely to actually understand things like “facts”, and “history”, and “constitution” and will be Ride or Die for Trump.
She’s right, I quibble with the numbers, but that’s how it would be. Trump party wouldn’t be big enough to do anything other than get good ratings on TV and feed him cash. If you look at the demographics, those folks are predominantly in the rural/south, the legacy (R)s look like the suburban folks that fall into the battleground category, and the Trump party would be enough to push House into basically all Dems and Trumpers, normal (R)s will just be out, and tip the Senate into permanent (D). There are not enough Trumpers to win a senate seat outside of Alabama, or even less likely a president, but it’s a damn near certainty that it will permanently install a (D) in the White House.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:34 am‘Disgusting’: Perdue hammers Georgia secretary of state for recording Trump call
We know what side Perdue’s on.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:35 amIn Trump’s Final Days, Lines Are Drawn for a Republican Civil War
Two years from now, after this week’s attempt to overturn the results of the presidential election has long since played out, here is a plausible scenario:
A Republican senator or House member, one party leaders are eager to see retain his or her seat, will be challenged in a primary by a disciple of President Trump. The incumbent, after being attacked as a member of a disparaged party establishment, will still win the primary. But that outcome will be challenged by Republican rebels, who, taking a cue from what is happening right now, will charge that the election was “rigged” by the establishment, and go to court to try to overturn it.
Such are the forces being unleashed this week within the GOP, where the prospect of a virtual civil war suddenly feels real. This internal struggle engages the president and his family; lawmakers courting the support of Trump loyalists; and a conservative Republican establishment embodied by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. Part of the struggle is ideological, part is simply about power. In any case, it figures to roll through the next two years and into the 2022 mid-term election.
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Meantime, the party’s broader splits are coming to the surface. The president rang in the New Year by tweeting that his party’s second-ranking senator, Mr. Thune, who has an 85% lifetime congressional-vote approval rating from the American Conservative Union, should be unseated by one of the president’s personal favorites, South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem……
…..[T]he Arizona Republican party openly attacked the most prominent Arizona Republican of the past generation, the late Sen. John McCain, in a weekend tweet proclaiming that the GOP is “never going back” to the party he represented but instead “is now, and forever will be, one for the working man and woman!”
As that tweet shows, there is an important ideological struggle lying beneath the skirmishing. Mr. Trump essentially ran for president in 2016 as an independent populist, with no use for a Republican establishment that largely opposed him. Upon prevailing, he turned the party away from traditional conservative principles of free trade, lower government spending and limited executive authority and toward more of a working-class agenda.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/4/2021 @ 11:40 am…….
One needs to consider too how many Republicans walked away from the party because of Trump. I know I did. If there was ever a time ripe for a third party, I think it’s now.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/4/2021 @ 12:11 pmIt still boggles the mind that Raffensperger, with all that he has endured at the hands of Trump and his nutjob followers, would still vote Republican – including voting for Trump.
Dana (cc9481) — 1/4/2021 @ 12:12 pmThere is never a good time for a third party, not in this FPTP political system of ours.
Hoi Polloi (093fb9) — 1/4/2021 @ 12:14 pmIt’s clear what Trump is. It’s clear that the GOP leadership mostly doesn’t care. It’s clear that GOP base likes it. The base has built an identity around being persecuted, attacked and disrespected. Rich Lowery had it right when he said the base loved Trump because voting for him was an opportunity to say “F-U” to a cultural elite that looked down on them.
If you think being a conservative means limited government, fiscal discipline, rule of law, and family values I don’t know what to tell you.
Time123 (6e0727) — 1/4/2021 @ 12:21 pmif you think being a conservative means ‘owning the libs’ and standing up for the ‘persecuted white Christian man’ against CNN then the GOP has a lot of offer you.
The backstory about the phone call:
Dana (cc9481) — 1/4/2021 @ 12:22 pm@18
Specifically, that Kelli Ward AZ GOP tweet said they were never going back to the party of Romney, Flake, and McCain…to which someone replied, Yes, the party of the most recent actual GOP election winners.
Purple Martin (bce78a) — 1/4/2021 @ 12:29 pmWell, this is interesting:
Curious to see
Dana (cc9481) — 1/4/2021 @ 12:46 pmifhow this is related to the election.He probably saw the s*** show previews and his face was plastered all over and decided to opt out of this particular drama a few weeks early. Because if this isn’t reality TV level s*** show, I don’t know what is.
I take that back, some reality TV is actually OK…well, the Amazing Race.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (31f414) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:00 pmTrump Georgia Call Preceded by Fresh Suit Over Election Loss
In one of his final acts of 2020, Trump filed a Dec. 31 federal lawsuit against Raffensperger and Georgia Governor Brian Kemp in a last-ditch effort to force the state to “de-certify” its election result and allow its GOP-led legislature to declare the winner instead. U.S. District Court Judge Mark Cohen in Atlanta set a hearing in the case for Tuesday morning.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:04 pm……
Trump’s latest suit rehashes conspiracy theories previously raised by his campaign and allies about rampant voter fraud in Georgia and accused the state of using improper rules for mail-in ballots. The president alleges Georgia allowed unqualified individuals, including felons and people who are underage, to register and vote. The president also claims Georgia accepted votes from dead people and violated state law by sending unsolicited absentee ballots to voters.
…..
Curious to see if how this is related to the election.
I hold to my speculation in the previous thread that it’s for the same reason Barr resigned: The only election fraud the DOJ found was by Trump.
It’s a disciplinary rule for lawyers generally, as well. If a lawyer finds that the client is engaging in crime or fraud, he must withdraw from representation.
nk (1d9030) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:15 pmJudge floats sanctions for attorneys who sought to block Congress from counting electoral votes
Purple Martin (bce78a) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:15 pmImagine that, the versions presented at Patterico’s are completely inaccurate. Big surprise.
Having listening to the entire call yesterday, I find the MSM reporting pretty accurate.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:23 pm@28.
Hmmmm, on one hand [shipwreckedcrew, RedState’s Magical Thinking analog of a lawyer]…and on the other hand, [Patterico+literally everyone living in this universe]
Decisions, Decisions.
Purple Martin (bce78a) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:25 pmWAPO’S DAVE WEIGEL SUMMARIZES THE GOP DIVIDES:
Cotton: National Review
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:32 pmHawley: The Federalist
Cruz: Breitbart
Romney: The Bulwark
Toomey: The Dispatch
Sasse: Washington Examiner
Johnson: Gateway Pundit
Gohmert: 8kun
We must stop calling Trump’s enablers ‘conservative.’ They are the radical right.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:35 pm19. You’re behind the curve, Dana. I walked away from the Republican party 16 years ago when it dawned on me that they had no interest in actually shrinking government while they were in power. For some perspective, that was only 8 years after I turned 18 and started voting (1996).
Gryph (f63000) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:43 pmWAPO’S DAVE WEIGEL SUMMARIZES THE GOP DIVIDES:
That’s pretty good. I had to look up 8kun to discover that’s the new branding for 8chan.
JVW (ee64e4) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:49 pm@28 BuDuh (47601a) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:10 pm
You’re not going to get far in this site for posting links to that site, giving the history.
Now, those authors my be right in that the outrage may be exacerbated by the punditry who’s only source is what other’s have read. But, the transcript is out there and I doubt the context would change if you were to listen to the recording. So, I’ll see if I can find some time to listen to the record and formulate my own opinion. But, I doubt it’ll change from my initial impression.*
*I still have a simmering rage for initially dog-piling the Covington ordeal, so I don’t trust the initial impressions of all-things-Trump from the punditry these days.
whembly (c30c83) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:49 pmHoward Stern rips Trump over Georgia call: ‘This is criminal. It’s gangster’
Howard Stern is ripping President Trump for his call with Georgia’s top election officials rather than focusing on the coronavirus vaccine rollout, saying it’s time the commander in chief goes “back to f—ing Florida.”
……
“This is criminal. It’s gangster,” Stern exclaimed to listeners.
“It’s like Donald Corleone,” Stern continued…..
……
The radio personality……blasted the president for being “busy” with flipping the election results instead of COVID-19 vaccine distribution.
“If you’re on the phone talking to some guy in Georgia and going, ‘Hey, what do you think about if we all said that I won the election? What do you think? Think we can make that fly?’ I mean, that’s what you’re busy with?” Stern said. “Only 4.2 million people in the United States have received a dose of COVID-19 vaccine. It’s like third-world s### going on!”
“The thing that’s really pissing me off is that this motherf—ing government that hardly exists now, they can’t get the coronavirus vaccine out,” Stern, 66, said, adding he would like to receive the COVID-19 vaccine himself.
“Front-line workers in hospitals can’t get it, and you’re making f—ing phone calls to try to end the election?” Stern said of Trump.
“What happened to this country? It’s such a disappointment that we cannot vaccinate people. We can’t get f—ing vaccine into people’s arms,” Stern said.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/4/2021 @ 1:58 pm…….
When you’ve lost Howard Stern…..
I followed the links and started reading. It was a lot of throat clearing about how much people pick on Trump and then some excuses with no real reference to the actual details of the conversation. I can listen to it myself and draw my own conclusions. If someone sees some subtleties that they want to point out that’s fine but I wasn’t very impressed by Redstate.
Time123 (6e0727) — 1/4/2021 @ 2:01 pmFrom that site in the preamble to the comments section. Says all it needs to I suppose…
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/4/2021 @ 2:28 pm39. So in other words, Redstate is a Republican party house organ. And with Trump in-(and soon-to-be out-)of-office, they’re finally being honest about it.
Gryph (f63000) — 1/4/2021 @ 2:36 pmDana (20)
The Democrats in Georgia are represented by Stacey Abrams, who also spends a lot of time complaining about voter fraud and excluding eligible voters. Trump is awful but, comparatively, not all that awful to a Secretary of State who has to wonder why he ever wanted this job.
Appalled (1a17de) — 1/4/2021 @ 2:39 pm@38
I haven’t read the links yet. May do so later tonight.
But, I did listen the audio while working today…
Trump very clearly believes that he legitimately won Georgia, and I don’t think he was asking Raffensperger to fraudulently manufacturer ballots to flip the election. Trump discussed at length the examples of what he believed was the fraud and Trump’s attorneys tried to get Raffensperger’s office to provide the campaign the source information that his office used to determine their no fraud decisions.
So, yeah, I’m inclined to chalk this one up as another mole-hill being made into a mountain.
However, that doesn’t absolve Trump and his cronies for taking part in this electoral escalation. History will not be kind to them…at all.
whembly (c30c83) — 1/4/2021 @ 3:05 pmA NeverTrump conservative third party would be an admirable nod to principle, but it’s hard to imagine it accomplishing anything but Democratic Party dominance as far as the eye can see. The third party I want is a coalition of sane Republicans, Democrats and Independents who subsume ideology to a shared goal of restoring public confidence in the rule of law and government committed to competence, honesty, and decency. I realize how hilariously pollyannaish that sounds, especially in such tribal times, but maybe it’s not entirely impossible. Projects like Getting to Yes have shown that when environments are purged of the toxic belligerents, techniques like elevating interests over positions can be surprisingly effective at allowing people to set aside their differences in service of productive outcomes. And if this is a pipe dream, what’s the alternative?
lurker (d8c5bc) — 1/4/2021 @ 3:38 pmI’ve listened to some of it. I don’t think it’s possible to determine what Trump thinks based on what he says. There are too many examples of him confidently repeating lies for that.
It sounded to me like they were trying to pressures the Sec State any and every way they could.
Threats, promises, they threw everything at the wall to see what would stick.
Here’s a good one
Time123 (f5cf77) — 1/4/2021 @ 3:52 pmI think it’s a moderately clever play on Japanese words too.
In Japan, the equivalent of Mr. or Ms. is the suffix “-san”. If I want to refer to or address someone named Suzuki, I would call him “Suzuki-san”. (Japanese first names are rarely, if ever, used in public.)
I don’t know if it’s only in academic circles, but the most respected people get “-sensei” instead of “-san”. Masatoshi Koshiba, my Nobel Prize-winning former collaborator who recently passed away, was “Koshiba-sensei” to all his colleagues, for example.
Anyway, male children’s names are instead given the diminutive suffix “-kun” … and females “-chan”.
(When a superior wants to belittle a subordinate who screwed up, he also uses “-kun”, which effectively means “you idiot”; it’s also used in humor between buddies)
Dave (1bb933) — 1/4/2021 @ 4:15 pm4.I must confess that I don’t understand what the current Republican party stands for.
Welcome to 1964.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/4/2021 @ 4:16 pm19.One needs to consider too how many Republicans walked away from the party because of Trump. I know I did. If there was ever a time ripe for a third party, I think it’s now.
Given the vote tally for him increased- yet he still lost to a fella no Republican other than a desperate anti-Trumper could support, some good poli-sci can work out a ball park number of the defective units Buckley-Birched out. There ain’t enough of them to start a party–just an angry PAC.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/4/2021 @ 4:27 pmWorse Than Treason
…..
This is sedition, plain and simple. No amount of playacting and rationalizing can change the fact that the majority of the Republican Party and its apologists are advocating for the overthrow of an American election and the continued rule of a sociopathic autocrat.
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Today, the “sedition caucus” includes at least 140 members of the House—that is, some two-thirds of the House GOP membership—and at least 10 members of the Senate. Their challenge comes after weeks of insistence that the 2020 election was rigged, plagued by fraud, and even subverted by foreign powers. The president and his minions have filed, and lost, scores of lawsuits that ranged from minor disputes over process to childlike, error-filled briefs full of bizarre assertions.
Instead of threatening to gavel these objections into irrelevance, as Biden did four years ago, Vice President Mike Pence “welcomes” these challenges. Pence’s career is finished, but he could have stood for the Constitution he claims to love and which he swore to defend. However, cowardice is contagious, and no mask was thick enough to protect Pence from the pathogen of fear.
Perhaps the sedition caucus didn’t mean to go this far. Its members began by arguing that we all just needed to humor President Trump, to give him time to process the loss, and to treat the president of the United States as a toddler who was going home empty-handed. He wouldn’t be a dead-ender, they assured us, because that would be too humiliating. The Republican Party would never immolate itself for a proven loser.
But for Trump, there is no such thing as too much humiliation. The only shame in Trump world lies in admitting defeat. ……
……
But we are, in the main, dealing with people who are far worse than true believers. The Republican Party is infested with craven opportunists, the kind of people who will try to tell us later that they were “just asking questions,” that they were “defending the process,” and of course, that they were merely representing “the will of the people.” …..
……
…….The Republicans have gone from being a party that touted virtue to being the most squalid and grubby expression of institutionalized self-interest in the modern history of the American republic.
……
The better course is to turn our attention to the business of governing, while vowing to drive every member of the sedition caucus out of our public life, both through the ballot box and by shunning their enablers.
The members of the public and the institutions of American life should shroud these seditionists in silence and opprobrium in perpetuity: no television interviews, no sinecures at universities or think tanks, no rehabilitating book tours, no jokey late-night appearances, no self-serving op-eds.
The sedition caucus is worse than a treasonous conspiracy. At least real traitors believe in something. These people instead believe only in their own fortunes and thus will change flags and loyalties as circumstances require……
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/4/2021 @ 4:39 pmJust like you can say to trust Patterico’s content, you can say that I nailed. Me, in Feb-2016…
http://www.theforvm *dot* org/if-gop-cares-about-integrity-its-time-say-it-pigs-blood-update
In April 2015, I put Trump and Cruz and a few others in the “hell no” category.
http://www.theforvm *dot* org/republicans-could-use-more-viable-alternatives
A word on today’s GOP. As long as Trump, his spawn and Trumpism stay in the party, I don’t see how it doesn’t fracture. It would deserve to fracture.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/4/2021 @ 4:40 pmAccording to the CBS Evening News, on which by the way, Raffensperger also appeared (interviewed live via flat screen TV) this was Trump’s 18th attempt to speak to him.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/4/2021 @ 4:47 pmIn re #32, what is this posse’s website?
https://news.yahoo.com/gop-congressmembers-wont-reject-electoral-185100898.html
urbanleftbehind (bb61b9) — 1/4/2021 @ 5:21 pmLou Dobbs Asks Why It Has Been So Hard ‘Finding Actual Proof’ of Trump’s Baseless Election Claims
On Monday, Dobbs said the following:
There is no evidence of voter fraud that would change the outcome of the election. Despite this, Dobbs and other key Trump allies have stood by the president as he has claimed all sorts of conspiracies — including claims directly to the Georgia Secretary of State that were debunked on the call.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/4/2021 @ 5:24 pm……..
Over at the Guardian, this article is a little over the top, but not by much.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/04/trump-republicans-electoral-college-sedition-secession-lincoln-confederacy
The party of Lincoln died with Lincoln. Reconstruction would have gone far differently had he not been assassinated. But he was a racist, considered Africans an inferior race. He says as much in his letters. The Emancipation Proclamation, for example, only freed slaves in the Confederate states, not in the Union states. And there were slaves in the Union states that were not freed until the ratification of the 13th amendment.
Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1) — 1/4/2021 @ 5:32 pmMy hope is that, sooner than later, Trump’s true visage is revealed to all, a la this video, with Romney comforting the crying Trump followers who are finally seeing Trump for the “man” he truly is.
Paul Montagu (14e7ea) — 1/4/2021 @ 5:57 pmMo’ schadenfraude or cognitive dissonance:
https://www.dailydot.com/debug/police-proud-boys-salem-fight-videos/
urbanleftbehind (bb61b9) — 1/4/2021 @ 6:03 pmLincoln gave every indication that he would be just as lenient to the rebel states as Johnson turned out to be. He might have been impeached, had he lived to serve out his second term.
The Emancipation Proclamation was a war measure to weaken the ability of states in rebellion to resist. There was no justification for applying it to areas under lawful government.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/4/2021 @ 6:56 pm@54. ROFLMAOPIP – the “man” he truly is:
“Les entreprises sont des gens, mon ami!” – Pierre Delecto
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/4/2021 @ 7:19 pm53. Gawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 1/4/2021 @ 5:32 pm
I think he conceded it was matter of debate. But he argued that if Quomby (?) was less capable that was not an argument he should have not have the right to be free.
Qupmby: It was some kind of a name that began with a Q
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/4/2021 @ 7:25 pmThere is never a good time for a third party, not in this FPTP political system of ours.
There is, however, room for a new 2nd party.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/4/2021 @ 7:30 pmThat’s not caused by too little planning, but by too much.
Latest news: FDA considers allowing half doses for people under age 55. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo threatens hospitals with huge fines if they don’t get the vaccine into people’s arms. I think also threatens to ship it to other hospitals.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/4/2021 @ 7:31 pmYeah, too much planning, that’s definitely the problem with the administrations Covid response. Sure.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/4/2021 @ 7:38 pmThe party of Lincoln died with Lincoln.
I’d claim it died a few years later with Thaddeus Stevens, who was the leader of the Radical Republicans.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/4/2021 @ 7:41 pm42. whembly (c30c83) — 1/4/2021 @ 3:05 pm
I don;t think that Trump truly believes that, although maybe he’d like to believe that, but he wasn’t asking Raffensperger to manufacture or lie about ballots,
although the only way, in the real world, that Raffensperger could find him more votes would be to do that.
Trump also should have known that nothing Raffensperger could do now would matter, except politically.
Trump was still pretending that Raffensperger could change the certification even though the Electors had met and voted!
Trump may believe he has the power to change reality if he only says it enough. Except he can’t really believe that.
and I don’t think he was asking Raffensperger to fraudulently manufacturer ballots to flip the election. Trump discussed at length the examples of what he believed was the fraud and Trump’s attorneys tried to get Raffensperger’s office to provide the campaign the source information that his office used to determine their no fraud decisions.
So, yeah, I’m inclined to chalk this one up as another mole-hill being made into a mountain.
However, that doesn’t absolve Trump and his cronies for taking part in this electoral escalation. History will not be kind to them…at all.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/4/2021 @ 4:40 pm
A word on today’s GOP. As long as Trump, his spawn and Trumpism stay in the party, I don’t see how it doesn’t fracture. It would deserve to fracture.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/4/2021 @ 7:43 pmThings looked grim for the GOP in 1964, then they won in 1968 (and by landslide in 1972) with a completely different candidate.
Things looked grim for the GOP in 1974, then they won by landslides in 1980 and 1984, with a completely different candidate, and won the elusive third term in 1988.
The next couple of years are going to be interesting.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/4/2021 @ 7:46 pmOops – quoted material below the screen.
He wasn’t asking but that would have been the only way Raffensperger could have helped him. But Trump was talking like this was not so.
On the CBS Evening News Norah O’Donnell read to Raffensperger a sectionn of the federal peal code that just didn’t apply.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/4/2021 @ 4:40 pm
If they leave the party, that already is a fracture. The question is the relative size of the parts and who inherits the empty shell and the headquarters and the millions of dollars.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/4/2021 @ 7:51 pmIt is really annoying to think back to 2015, when the GOP looked like it was going to be the ruling party for a generation.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/4/2021 @ 9:57 pm@66. ROFLMAOPIP
It is really annoying to think back to 1981, when the GOP looked like it was going to be the ruling party for a generation.
It is really annoying to think back to 1968, when the GOP looked like it was going to be the ruling party for a generation.
It is really annoying to think back to 1964, when the GOP believed it was going to be the ruling party for a generation.
It is really annoying to think back to 1960, when the GOP believed it was going to be the ruling party for a generation.
And so on and so on…
“I like Ike.” – Indiana Jones [Harrison Ford] ‘Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull’ 2008
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/4/2021 @ 10:08 pmIf you believe that the words that come out of Trump’s mouth are an accurate reflection of what he really thinks, sure. But Trump was badgering a man for an hour with stupid conspiracy theories that have been debunked many times, and indeed were debunked patiently during that same call. Trump had no reason to believe he won Georgia, and he did indeed tell an election official to reverse the outcome or else he’s taking a risk of some kind. There’s no context or beleif that makes it OK. Whembly’s right that Trump’s claims he won make him seem delusional, and that this is a defense for what he did. I don’t buy it.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/4/2021 @ 10:47 pmIt is not that you knew who trump was. Trump voters know who you and the never trumpets are. You are not welcome in the republican party. If you are a conservative economic free trade libertarian you are not welcome in the now populist republican party. Kelly ward is running the mccains out of the az republican party.
asset (5ca58e) — 1/5/2021 @ 12:01 amFinding votes.
If the GA Secretary of State would have done what Trump wanted, would he or Trump or both be criminally charged?
noel (5c4840) — 1/5/2021 @ 4:32 amThose are indeed the lines being drawn in my GOP. As I see it, Trump isn’t welcome in my party.
Paul Montagu (72ae4e) — 1/5/2021 @ 5:27 amnoel (5c4840) — 1/5/2021 @ 4:32 am
Must not be read as if he said it with quotation marks, like for instance, the New York Daily News front page had it yesterday,
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny-new-york-daily-news-front-pages-2021-jan-20210103-zitnhetgongbdpaql3csltfvuq-photogallery.html
It’s just not that way.
And the “or else” was clearly Trump saying that if he didn’t report that there had been fraud, he would be guilty of a crime – and he wasn’t saying he would prosecute him, but implying others would because he would in fact have committed a crime – but not reporting a crime is almost never a crime.
Only the secretary of state, because Trump wasn’t asking him to break the law. But the only way he could have done anything like what Trump wanted was to falsify records.
Not that that would have handed the state to Trump, because the election had already been certified and the Electors had voted (and I don’t think the Republican electors from Georgia got together and sent in ballots to the Vice President) but it was part of Trump’s fantasy universe that it could still make a difference – and who among his aides is going to try to disabuse him of that notion?
Trump knew he didn’t know the law, and he knew that the law wasn’t settled or so he had lawyers, or somebody, telling him, and coming up with all kinds of ingenious sounding ideas. These kinds of lawyers can usually probably only be found among those practicing U.S. immigration law.
It was also true that flipping Georgia wouldn’t win him the presidency, but Trump told Raffensperger:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/03/us/politics/trump-raffensperger-georgia-call-transcript.html
Which nobody believes, and we can be 98% sure was a lie, but what does Trump gain by abandoning hope?
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/5/2021 @ 5:48 amI’ve bee thinking about this. If we assume Trump isn’t stupid enough to flat out say “I want you to fabricate enough fraudulent votes for me to win the state.” how would he make clear that’s what he wanted and how would that look different from what he did say?
Time123 (af99e9) — 1/5/2021 @ 5:53 amA peaceful transition of power? Maintain faith in democracy among his followers? Maintain the US moral position wrt to individual freedom and democracy around the world? Help perpetuate the a democracy that has stood for freedom for over 2 centuries? I can list a lot of good reasons.
Time123 (af99e9) — 1/5/2021 @ 5:56 amasset: “If you are a conservative economic free trade libertarian you are not welcome in the now populist republican party”
The problem is, does the populism agenda make sense or are you being played?
Let’s start with NAFTA and the reality that 95% of USMCA is the same NAFTA. So, is the new 5% making a difference for middle America? Do the “rules of origin” of auto parts actually compel auto manufacturers to produce more parts in the U.S. or did it compel them to pay a tariff to avoid the rule and make them less competitive internationally? That seems like an objective criterion that will lean one way or the other. Have steel tariffs revived the steel industry? Are Americans or foreigners predominantly paying for the subsequent tariffs? Again, objective and once again not leaning in Trump’s direction.
Well, what about China, has the trade war won a lot of benefits for middle-class America? Have we been able to substantively change China’s disruptive economic conduct? Have changes offset the considerable bailout given to midwest farmers? I would argue less progress at far greater cost.
For immigration, not all immigrants are poor and dependent on welfare. Many come from Asia with college and advanced degrees. They start new companies and boost productivity with new ideas and fresh capital. The scorched-earth jihad against immigration…both legal and illegal… attacks the high-tech arenas that the U.S. ought to continue to dominate. Trump’s cynical attack on H1B’s doesn’t really help someone like asset but it will cause us to lag behind in critical technology areas like Artificial Intelligence and Deep Learning. This doesn’t even touch on the questionable reductions in asylum from places like Venezuela or Cuba.
So I guess fear of Mexicans and hatred of Chinese is one way to build a party…but in the end it’s a backward-looking policy that sinks all ships….
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/5/2021 @ 6:03 amwhelbly @42.
Trump very clearly believes that he legitimately won Georgia,
Dustin @68:
I don’t think Trump believes many of the things he says, but he believes he can make other people believe that, especially if he uses only other people’s ideas, and if he can make enough people believe that, why, it’s like the Donation of Constantine!
Not that Trump should be expected to be familiar with that, but people can come to the same ideas independently, or based on later events.
He was also using general arguments.
One thing that caught Stephen Colbert;s attention last night, was that it was crazy to believe that anyone who moved out of Georgia would ever move back (Trump had a list of registered voters who had moved out of state, going back years. Ryan Germany told him they moved back in years ago and this was not like something just before the election, but Trump would have none of that.)
It’s a defense against the charge that Trump is asking for falsification of records.
And he does have a delusion. Trump’s delusion is that he can make people believe what he is saying. It might not even be such a big delusion, but he can’t convince people close to the facts.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/5/2021 @ 6:09 amHilarious Gateway Pundit headline:
A day late (literally) and a dollar short.
Rip Murdock (8bf811) — 1/5/2021 @ 6:13 am44. Time123 (f5cf77) — 1/4/2021 @ 3:52 pm
According to Rich Lowry of National Review, what happened here is that Raffensperger agreed to do an sample audit of 15,000 absentee votes in Cobb County (and Cobb County, by the way, was better to use than Fulton County because it was in the suburbs that Trump did significantly worse than in 2016) and they found 10 mismatched signatures, but when they went to the voters in question, all 10 vouched for their votes.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/5/2021 @ 6:16 amTime123 @74:
None of that stuff matters to Trump.
You’ve got to look at it from his point of view.
To him, it’s like being behind 44-13 in a football game. You gain nothing by just giving up.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/5/2021 @ 6:21 amAnd he gets to gain hundreds of millions of dollars from his nose-pickers through his PAC and his 2024 election campaign. Billions even. And Brad Parscale winced chagrinedly.
nk (1d9030) — 1/5/2021 @ 6:40 amSeveral people have commented here on the prospects of a third party, some hoping for it and some dismissing the possibility. Given the binary nature of the American political mind set, I’m not sure where I stand on the possibility of a viable, competitive third party, but there ought to be some political home for people who are repulsed both by the deterioration of the Republicans into a cult of personality evacuated of anything that could properly be called conservatism and by the inexorably leftward lurch of a substantial wing of the Democratic party. Whatever happened to the sane middle?
Roger (782680) — 1/5/2021 @ 6:42 am73. Time123 (af99e9) — 1/5/2021 @ 5:53 am
Not this way, because Trump was in fact NOT making that clear.
Some kind of acknowledgement, or a hint, that the facts were not in accord with what he was saying, by at least an absence of repeated reiterations that they were. More focus on what he wanted Raffenperger to do, and less on why he was right.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/5/2021 @ 6:42 amI think the most likely 3rd party will be a Trump party. I could see it developing later this year if his star begins to wane and other power centers develop in the GOP. Perot showed that the main impact of a 3rd party is weaken the party they’re most closely aligned with. But I don’t see Trump being concerned about that. This is pretty speculative on my part.
Time123 (89dfb2) — 1/5/2021 @ 7:00 amMy point was that the benefit of admitting he lost a free and fair election accrues to the nation, not to him personally, and he doesn’t care about the country. Just himself.
Time123 (89dfb2) — 1/5/2021 @ 7:02 amExactly, Time123.
Trump may not think he has anything to gain in preserving democracy, but most of his predecessors were better men for realizing their presidency was bigger than they were.
Trump’s a hardball hustler who has ruined many lives and lied about everything, insisting the opposite of reality. He may have to convince himself, sorta, but he knows at the same time.
Doesn’t matter to me. He said ‘give me a break’ and demanded the outcome be reversed, or else there were risks. It’s simple enough.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/5/2021 @ 7:09 amHe is being widely mocked in Illinois. If you need another 11,000 votes, you don’t call up your people and ask for them two months after the polls have closed. You ask for them two hours after the polls have closed.
nk (1d9030) — 1/5/2021 @ 7:18 am@81, “Whatever happened to the sane middle?”
There’s not a lot of drama in compromise and getting a half of loaf. We’ve developed a technological culture where we like to press each other’s buttons. Until we break out of that, the political moderates are an endangered species. If a person is listening to Sean Hannity, then they see John Kasich as part of the problem and not part of the solution.
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/5/2021 @ 7:57 amI’m as guilty as anybody of that, AJ. It is challenging to explain a moderate view, to give the other perspective some respect. It is easier to throw up your hands in exasperation and associate anything on one side with everything on that side.
It is easier, and you get more praise on twitter. Anyone trying to see both sides of things will get much more anger and insults.
I think Meghan Mccain’s recent effort to discuss the value of maternity leave is a good example. She’s a wealthy enough person that I doubt it makes that much of a difference to her personally. But folks on the left are acting like she had no capacity to see their point of view, specifically because she has tried to see their point of view. It is simply easier to be an idiot.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/5/2021 @ 8:23 amThe problem is, does the populism agenda make sense or are you being played?
Perfect sense; if you’ve been peed on year after year by supply-side trickle down wankers, aka: Reaganomics, Reganaurics & Reaganoptics.
“There’s another old saying, Senator: Don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining.” – Fletcher [John Vernon] ‘The Outlaw Josey Wales’ 1976
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/5/2021 @ 8:40 amI will concede that the only thing missing from the assemblage of luminaries in Trump’s “stop the steal” is John McAfee and his pitcher of arahuasca margaritas
steveg (43b7a5) — 1/5/2021 @ 9:15 amWith Trump we have questions at the intersection of psychology and moral philosophy that don’t ordinarily appear in someone elected to the presidency.
On the one hand, Trump has openly promoted the advantage of strategic lying, or “exaggerating,” and repeating the lie so often that people believe it. Clearly he will lie deliberately for his own benefit. But it’s odd that he would boast about it, as though there could be nothing wrong with it — even though he frequently accuses other people of lying, in tones that suggest he thinks dishonesty is horrible.
At some level he grasps the concept of true and false, and the moral wrong of dishonesty, but his own words tell us he doesn’t think it’s bad to be dishonest himself.
The frequency and brazenness and weirdness of his lies suggest that he doesn’t really have a standard of truth apart from self-interest and self-aggrandizement. A normal person would be embarrassed to keep making such clearly false boasts about his own greatness, or piety or virtue. Is Trump unembarrassed because he actually believes the falsehood? Or because he believes that repeating the lies will makes them appear true to other people?
It might be some of both. I do think that Trump has delusional notions of true and false, but I also think he has no compunction about using falsehood to his own advantage, because of his pathologically self-centered worldview. He has come pretty close to saying “Whatever benefits me is good; whatever hurts or disappoints me is bad.”
The self-centered moral sense is fundamental to the nature of Trump. The delusional view of reality follows from it, but doesn’t quite totally define his awareness of what is really true and false.
If he truly believes the falsehoods, that might get him a little bit of moral indulgence in some quarters, but it demonstrates his deep unfitness for the presidency.
Radegunda (b6cc34) — 1/5/2021 @ 9:33 am@89, “Perfect sense; if you’ve been peed on year after year by supply-side trickle down wankers, aka: Reaganomics”
Sounds like something that the Party of the Buggy Whip would say. Believe it or not, if someone has their capital gains rate cut, it has no effect on my life. None, zip, zilch, zero….because it doesn’t mean my taxes went up or that fairness somehow demands that my taxes go down even more. But if tax policy forces someone like Perot to keep more of his money in bonds, then there is a trickle down effect of him not investing in a new company…meaning less economic dynamism…and less jobs. If we saw Trump’s taxes, do you think he is paying his fair share….or is he pushing the bounds on every deduction/allowance? You want to earn more money…acquire more knowledge, get more training, work harder, and/or take more risk. The GOP does not need to be the party of Robinhood….there’s already one of those….
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/5/2021 @ 9:53 amRight. This is the ‘art of the deal’. Bluster that you’re entitled to things you know you aren’t, hope they give in to endless bullying. The notion of fair dealing is absent here. Trump thinks that’s for weak losers, and fairness is something weak people want to hedge their loser bets. He’s both right and wrong. Over time, normal folks will not do business with liars, but if you’re a con man hustling morons, you obviously can win big time being a liar.
The idea Trump turned away from a lifetime of thinking like this, and really meant he won by a bazilion votes and just needs Georgia to reverse the outcome or else… because he really won, just seems like a silly defense. If Trump could articulate why he won, he wouldn’t be using debunked nonsense about dead voters and shredded blank ballots.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/5/2021 @ 10:01 am@88, Dustin: “It is challenging to explain a moderate view, to give the other perspective some respect.”
I certainly used to be more of an ideologue, because in some ways, it’s just easier. But I see what it’s doing to the country, where we are creating the climate for demagogues to arise (thankfully Trump is not an overly effective demagogue) and where our legislature is effectively paralyzed. How we treat each other is also remarkably less civil and considerate. I root it all in the media and how things are covered. There used to be one partisan show on air…Crossfire…but it was a small blip on otherwise vanilla news coverage. Now, partisanship drives everything…including the news. We can’t agree on basic facts, let alone priorities and policies. I don’t see it ending well which has in part made me more moderate…because if there’s a leak in the boat, it just doesn’t matter if you are on the right or left side….
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/5/2021 @ 10:14 amKevin D. Williamson is excellent on today’s (and tomorrow’s) Republican Party:
Dana (cc9481) — 1/5/2021 @ 10:23 amDana,
A large fundraising scheme that enriches anyone with the stomach to sell the lie that if you give them money they will fight to get you the respect deserve and the power your think your tribe has been denied.
On the one hand “There are no solutions just trade offs”
On the other: “Send me 20$ and I’ll build a wall to keep brown ppl from raping your wife, stealing your job, and destroying your home town.”
The people that know better (e.g. Cruz) have decided to go with the Grift because it’s easier then convincing ppl that they’ve been conned.
Time123 (af99e9) — 1/5/2021 @ 10:29 amSorry, should have let with “what will be built on the ruins is….
Time123 (af99e9) — 1/5/2021 @ 10:30 amToo good to check.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/5/2021 @ 10:35 amThe GOP does not need to be the party of Robinhood…
More Merlin, AJ: smoke and mirrors.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/5/2021 @ 10:43 amWhen I was more of an ideologue, it seemed that I only needed to identify which set of people had the best answers and then hew to their judgments (while I attended to my own responsibilities outside the realm of politics). It was also energizing to feel that I was on the right side of a great battle between right and wrong. At the same time, I regularly interacted with people on the “wrong” side who were certainly not bad or stupid. But the views of “my side” felt instinctively right, for the most part, and the differences within “my side” seemed less divisive than the differences from the other side.
Now, my side has fractured into bitterly hostile factions, defined mostly by disposition toward Trump. The leading Trumpers argue that Donald the Great single-handedly revealed what was wrong with the old Conservatism Inc. — without quite acknowledging that they had been wrong to be advocates for Conservatism Inc. Some of them have greatly changed their tune on some issues, and if they have sincerely rethought things — not just to align with the Trump faithful — that’s to their credit. What’s less creditable is the way they besmirch the motives of former allies who haven’t changed as much. Anyone who doesn’t view Trump as the unique and necessary savior of America and who won’t defend him to the utmost is tarred as a treacherous or self-serving agent of the Deep State.
Meanwhile, some people I used to think of as RINO squishes now look more courageous and thoughtful than I had formerly believed. But I’ve been shaken out of the sense that I just need to align with the right people and then I’ll have the correct views.
Radegunda (b6cc34) — 1/5/2021 @ 11:02 am93. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/5/2021 @ 10:01 am
I didn’t what the claim was about the shredding but I think they are supposed to be counted and recounted ballots that now can’t be further checked for possible tell tale signs of mass production. You might be able to come up with two or three theories of how shredding ballots might help facilitate fraud – Trump maybe doesn’t want to pick and choose.
Now there’s this thing: Nobody can confirm any ballots (except maybe ones from previous elections, along with other election material, but which probably actually did not even include any old ballots, cleared out to make room) were shredded.
The AP did a fact check, but I am not quite sure what Trump is alleging. Balllots were (supposedly) shredded, and so therefore….?
https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-check-donald-trump-georgia-elections-atlanta-c23d10e5299e14daee6109885f7dafa9
___
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/5/2021 @ 11:04 amChris Christie broken away from Trump (but it could be said that’s because he is getting paid by ABC) and had has indicated he might run for president in 2024 (against Trump?)
Perhaps the change is related to getting the coronavirus, probably because of Trump. His life was saved because he got the Eli Lilly antibodies, and his contacts may have played a role. This was before the FDA approved it for emergency use.
Christie was criticizing the Trump legal team but now it is becomig more Trump himself.
https://patch.com/new-jersey/mendham-chester/christie-tells-trump-it-time-move-election-loss
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/5/2021 @ 11:21 amThe not irrelevant Jonah on Pence’s powers:
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/5/2021 @ 11:28 am@100, “Now, my side has fractured into bitterly hostile factions, defined mostly by disposition toward Trump”
That’s the kicker. This isn’t deeply about policy. Trump talks less about policy and more about memes….who’s a loser…what’s great….who’s stupid….who’s a winner. It’s not to say I don’t have problems with some policy….abandoning the Kurds (but most of his knee-jerk foreign policy), trade wars, immigration excess, and spending….it’s just that much of Trump’s policy has only a loose connection to conservatism….or is a populist distortion of it….or like judges and de-regulation, are something he out-sourced.
This seems to be just about the wisdom of choosing Trump…and trusting that he will hand it to the liberals and the country-club Republicans that gave us McCain and Romney and W….and wanted us to have Jeb too. It’s emotionalism. Trump pushes all the right buttons. In a certain cynical sense, it’s been masterful manipulation of people….who now own the Trump presidency. If he fails, do they feel like they too failed? It will be fascinating to see what happens post Jan 20th…I’m not sure if either side will be able to go cold turkey. People will need their Trump release…..
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/5/2021 @ 11:42 am@103: Also missed by the Constitutional Convention, despite spending days worrying about pardons by a crooked Executive: “The President can pardon himself!”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/5/2021 @ 11:45 amThere are stacks and stacks of ballots that weren’t used, rumors and claims these were shredded, insinuating that’s wrong, but it’s just disposing of the material properly.
I do not need to come up with theories. Trump has had dozens of opportunities to show actual, hard evidence of fraud. He would not need to trade in a million confusing conspiracy theories if he simply had some good evidence. We could go on all day in circles about it, trying to find some possible way every one of his debunked claims might be right, but that’s not our job. It’s Trump’s job. The fact he is using Lin Wood to say CJ Roberts is in a satanic rape cult from Neptune shows he doesn’t have a good argument.
Trump is a skilled liar and con man, who will always insist his lies are the truth. He knows to use good evidence and spin from there to lies. He can’t do it right now, because it didn’t happen. Biden actually won.
Well said. This is a guy who will fight fire with fire, and let’s go ahead and define the left as Antifa using violence in our communities, the democrats as Bill Ayers fans who absolutely would cheat, Stacey Abrams who would twist the rules, and let’s go out and fight fire with fire. It’s complex to explain why we should do the right thing, to folks who think it’s naive. Turns out the GOP was utterly dependent on fair play. They will miss the EC when it’s gone. Huge reforms are under works by democrat think tanks. They aren’t talking about it now but they aren’t going to let this crisis go to waste. Trump is the very worst thing that ever happened to the GOP.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/5/2021 @ 11:56 amI think it probably is about that, for the more intelligent Trump boosters — i.e. not the ordinary cult followers who really believe in the Superman-Churchill-Jesus image of Trump.
Now that Trump is demonstrating more clearly than ever the dangers of giving the presidency to a sociopathic narcissist, and the wisdom of the Never Trumpers in recognizing it from the start (and not then doing an about-face), the Trump apologists will probably be more strident in asserting that treacherous hacks destroyed a brilliant president because he offended their effete aesthetic tastes or threatened their Deep State establishment.
Radegunda (b6cc34) — 1/5/2021 @ 12:18 pmYes. Trump gave Dems a lot of ammunition to argue that something is messed up in the system if it can elevate a Trump to the presidency, and if it’s barely able (so far) to prevent him from subverting an election or even calling out the military to keep himself in power.
Radegunda (b6cc34) — 1/5/2021 @ 12:23 pm106. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/5/2021 @ 11:56 am
He sounds sometimes like he’s making an allegation, so what I am doing is trying to figure out, what, if anything, the allegation is supposed to be – then showing why it’s not so or can’t be so. Leaving it alone is no good.
Neptune? Did he get that specific?
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/5/2021 @ 12:41 pmRadegunda (b6cc34) — 1/5/2021 @ 12:23 pm
It will be enough to get them to ignore any illegal orders coming from Trump.
All 10 former Secretaries of Defense have signed a letter, published as an op-ed, saying they should stay out of election disputes, Better would be that they should follow lawful orders of the lawful president (but any involvement by any units should not be necessary.)
https://www.npr.org/2021/01/04/953119935/in-op-ed-10-ex-defense-secretaries-say-military-has-no-role-in-election-dispute
It would be better to say nobody should act without orders but saying don’t get involved is not exactly right.
It would be more appropriate to have something more civilian act to ensure Biden is in power, if it comes to that, and you don’t want different units coming to different decisions.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/5/2021 @ 12:52 pmThe military isn’t going to be called up, as asked for by the cult.
But…the bombs will be starting to fall in about 50 hours in Iran. Tomahawks, and SLAM-ERs are stacked up, we have lots of both and replacements need to be ordered to keep the GWOT-IC in tailored suits.
Who’s going to tell him not to bomb, bomb, bomb…bomb, bomb, Iran? He was the one trying to get us out of nasty foreign wars.
Of course, maybe it doesn’t happen.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/5/2021 @ 12:54 pmColonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/5/2021 @ 12:54 pm
First of all, Iran will strike first. Second, it will wait till at least January 20. Third, if Trump starts a war with Iran, it still won’t extend his term by one additional second.
Maybe he could try stopping the clock. And declare that the day after Jan 19 is Jan 19A and then Jan 19B and then Jan 19C and so on.
But he can’t do that by executive order. It requires an Act of Congress.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/5/2021 @ 1:03 pm> rumors and claims these were shredded, insinuating that’s wrong, but it’s just disposing of the material properly.
to be fair, unused ballots from the 2020 election should probably be stored for a couple of years so that any pending legal cases can be worked through and so that retrospective studies can be conducted.
i have no evidence that this isn’t happening, of course. the shredding of ballots could easily have been ballots from, say, 2016, which have already been stored for a couple of years and are no longer needed.
> Trump gave Dems a lot of ammunition to argue that something is messed up in the system if it can elevate a Trump to the presidency, and if it’s barely able (so far) to prevent him from subverting an election or even calling out the military to keep himself in power.
i’m not sure that even needs arguing. The President of the US is trying to steal an election and has persuaded a huge chunk of the country that it’s good that he’s doing so, and as a result today a state legislature refused to seat a validly elected legislator. This is a clear and present threat to the republic, and once the dust has settled we’ve got to figure out how to neutralize this kind of threat going forward.
doing so is the most important job facing the country, more so even than dealing with the pandemic. we will not survive as a country if we don’t do it.
aphrael (4c4719) — 1/5/2021 @ 1:04 pmYou know it’s being seriously suggested by Trump’s people that Mike Pence as the power to postpone the inauguration. Unlike Dustin maybe, I’m interested in the reasoning.
Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/5/2021 @ 1:05 pmIndeed I’m not seriously curious about the validity of the idea that the VP can just override the election. We haven’t been doing that, it’s not right, and even if there’s a theory for it (and there always is) it’s obviously evil. The voters prefer biden to Trump, no question about it. Giving respect to the arguments Trump and his supporters are employing is probably worthwhile in some political science thesis in ten years, but today, it is actually very important that no respect be given. Con men thrive on the politeness of those who know better.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/5/2021 @ 1:26 pmMy friend, I was injecting absurdity to the absurd for a laugh.
Dustin (4237e0) — 1/5/2021 @ 1:27 pmSenate GOP opposition grows to Electoral College challenge
The Senate Republicans opposed to certifying President-elect Joe Biden’s win are heading toward a hefty defeat on Wednesday. The only remaining question is this: how badly do they lose?
Rip Murdock (80e6b4) — 1/5/2021 @ 1:55 pm……
At least 24 GOP senators will vote to certify Biden’s election win, according to a series of interviews and statements. As of Tuesday afternoon, 14 Republican senators had not said what they would do publicly. With every Senate Democrat also sure to reject the challenge to Biden’s victory, President Donald Trump’s pressure campaign will easily fail even as it succeeds in splitting the GOP.
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…..A number of senior Republican senators, from Chuck Grassley of Iowa to Marco Rubio of Florida to Todd Young of Indiana, are declining to make any comment about their intentions before Wednesday. That day is likely to be filled with intra-GOP clashes, as the objectors fight on the floor with members of their own party who refuse to stymie Biden’s formal path to the presidency.
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Wednesday’s vote will amount to Senate Republicans’ most significant rejection of Trump, who continues to make false claims about widespread voter fraud in the election he lost. While the president this week attacked Republicans who rejected his efforts, some of his strongest supporters argue that breaking with the president this time should not erase their ardent support over the past four years.
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