Patterico's Pontifications

11/25/2020

The GOP Has a Bold and Sweeping Agenda Post-Trump: Punish Trump Critics

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



I thought I wanted the GOP to win the Georgia runoffs. I thought we needed a check on Biden’s worst impulses. But if Republicans are going to use their Senate majority to continue the cult of Trump, they deserve to lose. And if this Axios story (warning: three days old; moldy punditry is good punditry!) is to be believed, that’s exactly what they have in mind:

Republicans are making plans to torpedo some of President-elect Biden’s prospective Cabinet, agency and judicial nominees if the GOP keeps its majority, aides involved in the discussions tell me.

What we’re hearing: Top targets include political names and civil servants who spoke out loudest against President Trump, forced out his appointees or became stars in the impeachment hearings — like Sally Yates and Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman — as well as longtime targets of conservative media, like Susan Rice.

Now, I have not heard that Alexander Vindman has been nominated to anything — although it is my belief that Biden should re-hire Vindman, Chris Krebs, and another unfairly fired figures. (I think Biden should revoke Jared Kushner’s security clearance as well, but that’s another discussion for another day.) But the idea that the GOP is going to continue to be motivated by petty personal Trump beefs even after Trump is gone is further evidence that the capture of the party is complete.

Right now, as we speak, the party is busy working to cost itself the runoffs by convincing voters that the election was stolen from Trump, which will have the effect of either demotivaing them to show up in January, or positively refusing to vote for the GOP senators in some kind of weird supposed payback for God knows what.

President Donald Trump’s lies about the election being stolen from him are having an unintended consequence: There are now members of his base who are advocating for Republicans not to vote in the Georgia runoff for two vital Senate seats.

. . . .

A faction of Trump’s base — including a PAC with ties to Roger Stone — has taken Trump’s conspiracy-mongering and attacks on Kemp and Raffensperger as a call to sit out the runoffs. Those rumblings have been significant enough that on Monday, Donald Trump Jr. felt compelled to weigh in with a tweet in which he dismissed talk of withholding votes from Perdue and Loeffler as “NONSENSE,” adding, “We need ALL of our people coming out to vote for Kelly & David.” . . . The irony, however, is that the Trump fans Don Jr. admonished are simply taking their cues from his father, who continues to push baseless conspiracy theories about the election being stolen from him even after he halfheartedly endorsed the General Services Administration’s move on Monday night to officially begin the transition to Biden.

Indeed, I realized this morning that any GOP candidate for president in 2024 is going to feel obligated to pay lip service to the idea that Biden stole the election from Trump. Anyone who pointedly refuses to do so will lose the insane chunk of Trump’s base — a large enough chunk to sink anyone’s chances. And since I can’t vote for anyone who pretends this election was stolen, I will likely be unable to vote GOP again in 2024.

Let me know when y’all want to grow up and be adults again, GOP politicians. Until then, I will remain out.

126 Responses to “The GOP Has a Bold and Sweeping Agenda Post-Trump: Punish Trump Critics”

  1. I want to vote Republican.
    But I can’t vote for people who want to punish civil servants for doing their job or providing honest testimony.
    I also can’t support people actively trying to destroy our system of government.

    Here’s why. I think it’s important that our elected officials defend our system of government. I think a key part of that is defending democratic norms even when the process doesn’t result in a win for your team. If you damage the system for personal reasons it won’t be there when you need it in the future. This doesn’t mean supporting the results of a fraudulent election, but it does mean providing leadership and speaking up about whether an election is fraudulent or not. There’s a lot about how elections happen that most people don’t know and some of the normal process can look suspicious. Using a rental van to move ballots from the clerk’s office to where they’re being counted is normal and harmless, but an uninformed observer might be alarmed when boxes of ballots show up at midnight in a van with out of state plates.

    Elected officials should understand this, or at least understand that explanations should be sought before concluding ‘fraud’.

    The GOP is not doing this. Trump will personally benefit from convincing as many people as possible that the election was ‘stolen’. He’s provided no proof and laughably weak evidence. Elected officials and candidates that go along with this are doing real damage to our country. I can’t support anyone with so little love for America that they’re unwilling to stand up for it. I’m not a cultural conservative, but i know many regulars here are. I would encourage you to think about standing up for democracy in the same was you think about standing up for the traditional family structure.

    This is a good article about the Michigan election for those who are interested. The discussion of Aaron Van Langevelde actually gives me some hope for the future of the GOP.

    Patterico, I’m sorry that this comment strayed off topic from you initial point about payback. I’d had two thoughts after reading your post. This, and the difference between a civil servant and a political appointee.

    Time123 (89dfb2)

  2. The current Republican Senate appears in no hurry to buck Trump either. He is still upset at the idea of renaming Confederate named military bases and he remains backed by the Senate (From NBC News, sorry don’t have the link):

    While some Republicans are now shifting their positions to align with Trump, Democrats are refusing to budge on the agreed-to amendment, threatening passage of the legislation.

    The effort to change the names of military bases honoring Confederate military leaders has been a target for Trump for months. It was among the disagreements he had with his former defense secretary, Mark Esper, who was quietly working with Congress to codify the renaming of bases in the bill before Trump fired him this month …

    [The] chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla., indicated that he’s gotten the message from Trump, and he called it a “big issue” of contention in negotiations with Democrats.

    “Only the president can say whether or not there’s any room for a negotiation,” Inhofe said, adding that he doubts that Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., would put legislation up for a vote on the floor “that has a veto on it.”

    I think it’s pretty clear that the average Republican member of Congress sees absolutely nothing in the most recent election to cause them to change their opinion about anything or see a future in opposing Trump. His loss, it will be understood was a combination of fraud and perhaps some unfortunate tweets.

    Anybody who continues to support today’s Republican party really just want to keep our current dysfunction going, like a sad little party with only stale chips and bad beer left, but nobody is willing to leave.

    Victor (4959fb)

  3. I want to vote Republican too, but will never vote Democrat.

    Also. realize the media will be pushing stories like these a lot, if nothing else because they want to fracture the right. They want the focus on Trump, even when Trump is long gone. Trump unifies the left and divides the right. Trump makes the media money.

    And Biden with a Democrat House and Senate will enact all the liberal policies he says he doesn’t want, but really does.

    Hoi Polloi (3bc019)

  4. Mixed feelings about this. Over the past two decades, I’ve considered myself an independent who leans Republican (because of my conservative inclinations), so it’s not a matter of giving up a party I never completely identified with anyway. But though I voted for Biden, I hoped that Republicans would hold onto the Senate in order to put a brake on some of the loony things that might come from the left. But perhaps you’re right, Patterico: if the majority of the Republican base that is still clinging to absurd conspiracy theories is any indication, it’s possible we’ll see just as much lunacy from their side. I maintain some hope, though, that the GOP will eventually come to its senses.

    Roger (5daebb)

  5. Payback for me but not for thee.

    This is a movie some of us have already prescreened, and we know how it ends. Spoiler alert: this is not apocalypse, and the feckless party tribalists who push unfounded conspiracy theories recover their bearings somewhat and might even win the next election. For an example, look no further than the Dems and their NeverTrump allies.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  6. Patterico: “I can’t vote for anyone who pretends this election was stolen”

    I cannot agree more.

    The Republican Party is all about pretending that Trump’s false claims are true. Many southern preachers, especially those on TV, have been peddling his lies in God’s name. Talk radio and some in conservative news bow to Trump.

    Many decent people I know are simply choosing to believe his dangerous lies. They are the ones that really bother me. They are some of the last folks that I would have ever thought would sell America’s soul. They will discard democracy for a con man from New York.

    The most serious challenge to America’s future since the fall of the Soviet Union has come from our own ranks.

    noel (9fead1)

  7. Like Trump, the GOP has become a bully willing to demonize his opponents and its own members in service of Trump and his family. Personally, relentlessly, one at a time (if needed), just like Trump did in the 2016 primary. If the GOP doesn’t band together and stop Trump now, eventually the GOP will be like Michigan and there may not be anyone left to stand up to him.

    DRJ (aede82)

  8. DRJ, Take a look at the Alberta article about MI I linked in my comment.

    Time123 (6e0727)

  9. realize the media will be pushing stories like these a lot, if nothing else because they want to fracture the right. They want the focus on Trump, even when Trump is long gone. Trump unifies the left and divides the right. Trump makes the media money.

    The media really IS powerful if it can force the GOP to lash out at Trump’s critics. I thought that politicians had agency but I guess not.

    Here’s the thing: the media almost certainly helped Trump with its coverage of his clownshow. But the thing is, the audience still has to be willing to buy it for the media coverage to actually succeed. The nutjobs that buy into Trump’s nonsese are the disease, the media coverage is just a symptom.

    johnnyagreeable (35219d)

  10. I’m staying in the party, but it’s not stopping me from haranguing fellow Republicans who are choosing Trump over country and party. It’s this cultish behavior that will destroy the GOP, and Trump is contributing to that destruction.
    Mr. Van Langewelde, the guy on the MI Board of Canvassers who voted “yay” on certification, is a great American. The other Republican on the board, Mr. Shinkle, chose the coward’s way out by abstaining.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  11. We think alike, Time123. That was my link, too!

    Trump has cleaned out DC but the ones he cleaned out were the ones who put the country ahead of him. Deep State corruption actually got much worse.

    DRJ (aede82)

  12. So, you have a problem with Republicans acting like Democrats, got it!

    MJN1957 (0140eb)

  13. Trump and his spawn are a cultural cancer. Just like Iraq couldn’t move on as long as Saddam and his sons were around, the U.S. has a cloud hanging over it in the form of the Trumps and Trumpism.

    norcal (a5428a)

  14. I think it’s pretty clear that the average Republican member of Congress sees absolutely nothing in the most recent election to cause them to change their opinion about anything or see a future in opposing Trump.

    This is so problematic for the GOP. I think there is really no hope that the party will make any effort to distance itself from Trump and Trumpism. Unfortunately, Biden’s win will further solidify this and in turn compel Republican members of Congress to band together even more tightly than before. They will wait until Trump can run again in 2024. A new poll shows that a majority of Republicans polled would vote Trump in 2024 over any other likely contender in 2024. So we face the prospects of having to endure the same dismal mess all over again.

    Dana (6995e0)

  15. @11 Somehow I missed that you’d provided a link! Do’oh

    Time123 (89dfb2)

  16. I think that a successful GOP candidate in 2024 will be glib and vague and will handle questions about the legitimacy of this year’s election with something like the following:

    “Well, the 2020 elections, coming as they did in the middle of a pandemic, presented us with a lot of challenges. States were required to implement new voting systems on the fly, and this naturally brought about its share of controversy. It’s not really useful to go back and litigate the results, but we must learn from our 2020 experiences and move forward with the goal of making elections completely safe and honest, so that voters know not only that their ballot counts, but that dishonest ballots will be discovered and thrown out.”

    The media will scream bloody murder about how evasive this is, but frankly a GOP candidate shouldn’t give a damn. If the candidate is pressed specifically on whether Trump’s behavior this year undermines faith in elections, the response should be something like:

    “Well, I’ve seen multiple elections in my lifetime where the losing party declares that the winner is somehow illegitimate, and that language has even been used by high-ranking federal officials. I think that any time anybody declares that an election has been stolen without providing evidence then that undermines our faith in the system, but as I say, I’ve seen it happen in several elections — including Presidential elections — in my lifetime.”

    In a perfect world we would have candidates who honestly and fully answered all media questions, but that day has never really existed and given the water-carrying the major media did for the Biden campaign this election cycle I don’t think that future GOP candidates have any obligation to play nice with them by answering their gotcha inquiries.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  17. JVW, those are good politician answers. I don’t know if they get you out of the Primary for the GOP. But I hope so. They’re bad leadership answers.

    Time123 (89dfb2)

  18. Trump is the one who will scream bloody murder about that answer, just as he did when Cruz told Republicans in 2016 to vote their conscience. Everyone will be forced to take sides. Binary choice is the only rule in GOP politics now.

    DRJ (aede82)

  19. @Pat

    Let me know when y’all want to grow up and be adults again, GOP politicians. Until then, I will remain out.

    Being adults means taking a hard look at the potential cabinet positions and not rubber stamp the incoming administration.

    Susan Rice? Hell no.

    Sally Yates? Maybe…but, she’ll face some hard questions, as she should.

    Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman? For a cabinet position? Hell no. I’m okay if Biden wants to reinstate Vindman in some other non-cabinet positions. But, Vindman was no angel in that ordeal.

    The Senate’s Advise and Consent mean something Pat and agreeing to the framing as Axio presented is a mistake.

    The media will be rolling out the carpet for the Biden administration and throw tantrums anytime GOP throws up some roadblocks. Adjust your expectation when you read sites like this…they’re framing the best possible narrative for Biden.

    whembly (2900b2)

  20. No, Time, I missed your link but sometimes when the posts are new I comment on the post without reading all the comments first. It is interesting how often you and I agree though.

    DRJ (aede82)

  21. JVW, those are good politician answers. I don’t know if they get you out of the Primary for the GOP. But I hope so. They’re bad leadership answers.

    We don’t elect good leaders any longer; we elect good politicians. I don’t know what the GOP primaries will be like three years (yes, only three years) from now, but I’m sure they will be mostly stupid the way the Democrat primaries were this year. And I’m equally sure that my favorite GOP candidate won’t go anywhere, just as my favorite Republican in 2016 and my favorite Democrat in 2020 didn’t either.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  22. In 3 years time, it’s uncertain whether the GOP nominee will feel compelled to support the stolen-election conspiracy meme. With nothing beyond anecdotal evidence of widespread fraud….the inconvenient truth exposed in the fury of state lawsuits….there’s just not a lot of there there. Anger and grief will soon turn to acceptance. Trump continuing to harp about something he has no real evidence to support…will become tiresome….and stale even for his most fluffiest media. The vacuum will bring in some new voices…and hopefully a return to normalcy…eventually

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  23. @16 JVW… ditto.

    whembly (2900b2)

  24. JVW,

    I would hope that in 2024, most Americans will want less non-commitment answers from a serious challenger. But given that 73 million voters went for Trump, this boilerplate may be what is necessary to advance in a Primary. The question is, after four years of Biden, well Trump supporter still be as loyal to Trump as they are now, or will they move more toward the middle in hopes of just getting any Republican elected?

    Dana (6995e0)

  25. @21

    JVW, those are good politician answers. I don’t know if they get you out of the Primary for the GOP. But I hope so. They’re bad leadership answers.

    We don’t elect good leaders any longer; we elect good politicians. I don’t know what the GOP primaries will be like three years (yes, only three years) from now, but I’m sure they will be mostly stupid the way the Democrat primaries were this year. And I’m equally sure that my favorite GOP candidate won’t go anywhere, just as my favorite Republican in 2016 and my favorite Democrat in 2020 didn’t either.

    JVW (ee64e4) — 11/25/2020 @ 10:55 am

    Three years is a life time in politics.

    Madame President Kamala Harris would surely change that dynamic such that 2020 will be forgotten history. And, I’m not so sure Trump would be interested in running again. He’ll still be treated as “President Trump” for the rest of his life, enjoying whatever goodies he’ll and his family will enjoy in the post-President life.

    whembly (2900b2)

  26. Trump and his spawn are a cultural cancer. Just like Iraq couldn’t move on as long as Saddam and his sons were around, the U.S. has a cloud hanging over it in the form of the Trumps and Trumpism.

    norcal (a5428a) — 11/25/2020 @ 10:32 am

    You are either calling for the murder of the President and his family or the President and his supporters. Either is vile. Both should be bannable.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  27. ‘This is a movie some of us have already prescreened, and we know how it ends.’

    strong>Revenge Of The Jedi

    The original title.

    Sequel to ‘The Empire Strikes Back.’

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  28. Revenge Of The Jedi

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  29. I think this demonstrates why it will be important for Trump to continue his grift. If he can keep his base intact and keep the gravy train running, he will be in a good position for another run. If he can keep the belief alive with voters and GOP members of Congress that he will be a strong position, then the next election could be his. Those 73 million voters weren’t all voting lesser of two evils, nor were they all diehard loyalists. I just don’t know which group was bigger. Reports vary greatly. But Trump will be the known quantity, for better or worse.

    Dana (6995e0)

  30. Axios is a leftwing media group that has dumped on the President from the day of his election. We used to acknowledge leftist bias. It seems we’ve forgotten about that as long as the target is someone disliked.

    I forget the coined term, but it reminds me of how willing people are to read an article, find a bunch of wrong points and fallacies in the article, know it’s false, then read the next article and believe every word in it without remembering how false the previous one was.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  31. Axios is a leftwing media group that has dumped on the President from the day of his election. We used to acknowledge leftist bias. It seems we’ve forgotten about that as long as the target is someone disliked.

    I forget the coined term, but it reminds me of how willing people are to read an article, find a bunch of wrong points and fallacies in the article, know it’s false, then read the next article and believe every word in it without remembering how false the previous one was.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 11/25/2020 @ 11:08 am

    Did you mean VOX? Patterico linked both and I’ve found Axios to be a fairly decent straight news source.

    Time123 (89dfb2)

  32. No Time. Axios is a leftwing political site. Similar to the Washington Post or LA Times for bias.

    Here’s a wonderful quote for some to chew on while eating lunch,

    What we saw today, I was sitting in that room in Wilmington, I was thinking about the fact that Joe Biden in some ways, for his supporters, is fulfilling the promises that he made on the campaign trail,” Alcindor reported. “He said he wanted to have a cabinet that looked like America and there were people there on that stage, of course talking about all of their different accolades and their experience, but they were talking about their families who survived the Holocaust, who survived coming from Cuba and fleeing communists, talked about having Gumbo diplomacy, cooking food, cooking southern food as the United Nations Ambassador was saying. All of those things are what America is about, is this melting pot.”

    “The other thing I’ll just say is I was talking to a Democrat who said this almost felt like the Avengers, it felt like we are being rescued from this craziness that we’ve all lived through in the last four years and now here are the superheroes to come and save us all,” Alcindor said.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  33. I think the telling moment will be when the next RNC chairperson is selected. Trumpbot Ronna McDaniel is seeking re-election.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  34. @29

    I think this demonstrates why it will be important for Trump to continue his grift. If he can keep his base intact and keep the gravy train running, he will be in a good position for another run. If he can keep the belief alive with voters and GOP members of Congress that he will be a strong position, then the next election could be his. Those 73 million voters weren’t all voting lesser of two evils, nor were they all diehard loyalists. I just don’t know which group was bigger. Reports vary greatly. But Trump will be the known quantity, for better or worse.

    Dana (6995e0) — 11/25/2020 @ 11:07 am

    Depends on if he WANTS a 2nd term at his age.

    He’ll probably get the same endorphin kicks if he plays “The Kingmaker” in GOP politics. Especially if he’s have to wrest control from some cable news network somehow.

    whembly (2900b2)

  35. @26 — That’s total rubbish.
    For the past 4-5 years, Trumpers have insisted that it was very wrong to take Trump literally when he said things like “I could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose any supporters.” Trumpers have been spinning his comments nonstop in an effort to sanitize his thinking.
    The other side of the coin is a Trump fan imposing the most ugly possible imaginary reading on a Trump-critic’s comments, in effort to get that critic banned from a website.

    I would suggest that falsely accusing someone of calling for mass murder might be sufficient cause for a ban.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  36. But given that 73 million voters went for Trump, this boilerplate may be what is necessary to advance in a Primary.

    Yes, and they will have learned from the Biden campaign’s absolute avoidance of the media and his refusal to answer pretty straightforward questions such as “would you expand the number of Supreme Court Justices?” Donald Trump is an idiot and a louse, but one thing that can be said about him as President is that he was never afraid to tell anybody exactly what was on his mind at any given moment. As a consequence, every politician is going to see what happened to him by doing that and none of them will ever again give us anything more than vacuous blandishments as to what they hope to accomplish.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  37. Radegunda,

    Your obsession with Trump colors your remarks. I will not engage further with you.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  38. Patterico: “I can’t vote for anyone who pretends this election was stolen”

    Well, I’d have a hard time doing that, too, but I refuse to vote on a single issue. The opponent may well be less trustworthy, and certainly more likely to disrespect my interests.

    The battle should be to clear the party of the mindless TrumpBots, not to punish the party collectively not to punish the People collectively by electing leftist demagogues or those who have no respect for hard work, families or individual liberty.

    In short, it would depend on who else was in the race. I have not ever voted for Donald Trump, but if he was running against a Fidel Castro-wannabe I’d have no choice.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  39. *not nor

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  40. Revenge Of The Jedi

    Which was actually titled Return of the Jedi, by the way. Interesting story about that, the original title was indeed “Revenge of the Jedi,” and Lucasfilms bullied the Star Trek people into changing the title of the second movie in their franchise from the planned Vengeance of Khan to Wrath of Khan because they thought that “revenge” and “vengance” were too similar. Then, once the Star Trek folks were committed to “Wrath” the Lucasfilm folks decided that “revenge” was not a proper Jedi characteristic and made it “return” instead.

    That’s just today’s meaningless anecdote, courtesy of me.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  41. But the idea that the GOP is going to continue to be motivated by petty personal Trump beefs even after Trump is gone is further evidence that the capture of the party is complete.

    This will go way beyond that.

    It;s actually an extension of confirmation fights over Supreme Court and appellate court judges. There is \a long term trend of holding votes by a senator to confirm someone to a policy making position as being less and less pro forma.

    The Republican Senate will be prepared to vote down maybe half of Biden’s Cabinet nominees on policy grounds. Biden possibly believes he can avoid that by nominating long term government figures.

    I don;t think that Mitch McConnell will prevent the positions of the heads of the executive departments from being filled. But he may demand a lot more advice than has ever gone before. Maybe even getting two or three positions filled by Republicans. And vetoing others.

    Of course, moderating a Biden Administration may give Republicans less to criticize. But that’s how you might prevent Donald Trump from making a comeback, which I think many Republican Senators don’t want to see happen.

    They’ll still want to run their own person in 2024, especially because of Kamala Harris waiting in the wings, or being the Democratic candidate herself.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  42. Rob, I don’t think that quote is from Axios….

    Time123 (6e0727)

  43. withholding votes from Perdue and Loeffler

    This would be ironic, as those two have been deeply faithful to the Donald. In some respects it would be a good thing if TrumpBots started opposing the Trump faithful as it would make clear the futility of chasing the mindless-idiot vote.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. Wrath of Khan was a better title.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  45. Your obsession with Trump colors your remarks. I will not engage further with you.

    It’s funny that someone who says I’m “obsessed with Trump” never responds to any comments I’ve made that are not about Trump, but only to ones that mention Trump.

    And my comment #37 is not really about Trump. Its about your slanderous accusation against another commenter.

    I suggest that there’s something unhealthy in being so extremely touchy about the fact that some people dislike Trump.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  46. People some cannot vote for:

    * Those that supported Trump
    * Those that attacked Kavanaugh
    * Those that support abortion
    * Those that think Biden stole the 2020 election
    * Those that think Trump stole the 2016 election
    * Those that think Bush planned 9/11
    * Those that think Obama was born in Kenya, and that it matters.

    Pretty soon I can’t vote for anyone. F*ck litmus tests.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  47. But given that 73 million voters went for Trump, this boilerplate may be what is necessary to advance in a Primary.

    Yes, and they will have learned from the Biden campaign’s absolute avoidance of the media and his refusal to answer pretty straightforward questions such as “would you expand the number of Supreme Court Justices?” Donald Trump is an idiot and a louse, but one thing that can be said about him as President is that he was never afraid to tell anybody exactly what was on his mind at any given moment. As a consequence, every politician is going to see what happened to him by doing that and none of them will ever again give us anything more than vacuous blandishments as to what they hope to accomplish.

    JVW (ee64e4) — 11/25/2020 @ 11:32 am

    1. Absolute avoidance is a big exaggeration.
    2. He may not have had an up or down answer to that question, so he gave a politician’s answer. Also, he was asked it on camera several times.
    3. Biden’s strategy of making this a referendum about Trump worked. That doesn’t mean the same strategy will work in the future. Trump has been a historically unpopular president.
    4. Like the drunk at the end of the bar Trump is happy to tell you what he thought. Also like that drunk Trumps thinking was superficial at best and informed by a simplistic understanding of complicated things, if not outright ignorance. Like the drunk at the bar Trump has answers that are simple, obvious, and wrong.

    I know that I like detailed answers that make the nuance and trade off’s clear. But that isn’t the way we do things any more, so the answers get shorter and simple. Trump was good at that but I’m not sure it’s a virtue.

    Time123 (6e0727)

  48. Early on in the 2016 debates it became clear that the party and most of the other candidates were unwilling to attack Trump because they wanted his supporters should they win the nomination, and did not want Trump forming a third party.

    And the party is STILL smoking the same dope, even after 17 train wrecks.

    When will it end? Only after the party is purged, or the party is supplanted by another. Trump’s eventual death will not be sufficient.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  49. Your obsession with Trump colors your remarks. I will not engage further with you.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 11/25/2020 @ 11:33 am

    Just bear in mind that Trump is the most powerful man in the world and he just tried to steal an election, a deadly damn serious crime against you and me both. If Trump does not peacefully obey the voters, he will have to be forced to obey. That would be terrible, but it must happen, and Trump has only raised the stakes this far for purely selfish reasons. We deserve better and indeed Biden is much better. I look forward to Biden’s errors compared to Trumps by people trying real hard to appear serious despite Trump being the absolute worst leader in the USA’s history.

    Rad’s interest in this guy is pretty justified. Say what you will about Trump, he’s not uninteresting right now.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  50. Giuliani last night said a million, or close to a million, more votes were cast in Pennsylvania than there were voters. I don’t know what statistical legerdemain was handed to him to arrive at that conclusion, but if anything like that was done, it would be obvious, and said by many other people other than Giuliani.

    He also said teat he or his people would be testying a sate legislative hearing. But what that actually seems to be about is people saying they were not allowed to watch the counting.

    In fact the counters were watched and they threw out “naked ballots” every Pennsylvania mail in ballot had to be put into a special envelope (not the one that was signed) sort of like the way you have to put a sticker to be eligible for a prize in the Publisher’s clearing House sweepstakes. Well, the ballot had to be in the privacy envelope so they could be piled together and counted without anyone remembering whose ballot it was. Up to 10% of so ballots failed. It previous elections they were often counted. In 2020, they were rejected, except that maybe in certain counties ballots were weighed without being opened to detect whether or not they contained the second envelope. I’m not sure how this defect could be cured or if they are talking about curing other problems. Maybe they could be cured before the close of polls on Election Day if the voter was contacted.

    Here;s something:

    https://www.factcheck.org/2020/11/ballot-curing-in-pennsylvania

    . All counties got the same guidance the night before the election instructing them to notify political parties and update the ballot-tracking online system about ballot errors, thus allowing voters to cast a provisional ballot on Election Day.

    Ah, that’s what. If you weighed a mail in ballot and knew it would be rejected, or you could see on the outside there was a problem, like a missing signature,
    you could contact the voter, or, more likely, the political party he was enrolled in and notify them so the voter could be contacted and asked to cast a provisional ballot

    Some counties notified voters, and some didn’t.

    Republicans have lodged several challenges about the so-called “cured” ballots in court, arguing that counties that refused to “cure” ballots were simply following state law and a state Supreme Court ruling that prohibited it. Democrats say the guidance was clear, and perfectly legal.

    Giuliani’s court case, which he lost, asked that all votes from many Pennsylvania counties be thrown out because this opportunity to correct for mistakes wasn’t given to all voters in Pennsylvania.

    He had another request too, that all ballots that arrived in the mail after the original deadline set by the state legislature be rejected.

    Onn the radio last night, he also said 20,000 (that’s all) were recorded on a Pennsylvania website as having been mailed out and received on the same day, which is impossible.

    Well, one thing I can think of is that maybe they were picked up, filled out, and then handed in in person.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  51. @40. Yes. Know the whole tale.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  52. IMHO, those that say “I won’t vote for anyone who supported Trump” is no better than TrumpBots blindly voting against anyone who did not grovel to the great Trump.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  53. 32. NJRob (eb56c3) — 11/25/2020 @ 11:24 am

    “The other thing I’ll just say is I was talking to a Democrat who said this almost felt like the Avengers, it felt like we are being rescued from this craziness that we’ve all lived through in the last four years and now here are the superheroes to come and save us all,” Alcindor said.

    I think yesterday Joe Biden said America is back, and also two weeks before, thereby plagiarizing a tweet from the mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo, who tweeted on November 7, “welcome back, America” (it’s just a minor change in word order)

    https://twitter.com/anne_hidalgo/status/1325115998966607873

    Anne Hidalgo
    @Anne_Hidalgo

    Nov 7

    Welcome back America! Congratulations to @JoeBiden and @KamalaHarris for their election! While we are about to celebrate the 5th anniversary of the Paris Agreement, this victory symbolizes our need to act together more than ever, in view of climate emergency. [American flag icon]

    #Election2020

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  54. @40. Postscript; speaking of ‘meaningless anecdotes': Biden’s Thanksgiving Address.

    ‘He came before us to stand behind us.’ Moves from ‘shutting down the virus’ to ‘slowing the virus down.’ Because, you know, with three vaccines brewing, ‘no miracle is coming.’ Yet he predicted so many; cure for cancer, cure for Alzheimer’s… electric can openers. Inspiring.

    Turkeys can’t fly, ‘Big Guy.’ Only Ol’Joe could make Donald Trump sound like a statesman.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  55. Your obsession with Trump colors your remarks. I will not engage further with you.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 11/25/2020 @ 11:33 am

    Rob, why do you consider it an obsession to be very concerned with what the sitting President of the United States is saying and doing? I know you wouldn’t feel that way if Radegunda’s comments were directed at a sitting President Obama. I understand that it must be hard to see your guy hammered, but honestly, the individual sitting in the most powerful seat in the world needs to be vigilantly watched, criticized when earned, rebuked when called for, and in all instances, held accountable as much as is possible by the American voters. I don’t think we do that enough with our elected officials in general. And that is to our shame.

    Dana (6995e0)

  56. Dana, On Rob’s behalf here’s the context.

    Comment 13,

    Trump and his spawn are a cultural cancer. Just like Iraq couldn’t move on as long as Saddam and his sons were around, the U.S. has a cloud hanging over it in the form of the Trumps and Trumpism.

    Comment 26, Rob points out this sounds like a call for the Trumps to be killed. I don’t agree with Rob, but it’s a nasty comparison.
    Comment 25, Rad defends 13 and then accuses Rob of trying to get Norcal banned and then suggests Rob should get banned.

    I don’t think your comment is in line with the Norcal/Rob/Rad conversation that was happening. At the risk of putting words in his mouth I think Rob’s saying that Rad’s feelings about Trump make it hard for him to understand Norcal’s remarks.

    Regarding Banning, when was the last time a Regular commenter was banned without first being told to stop whatever they were doing? this isn’t a ban happy blog.

    Time123 (89dfb2)

  57. Rob, I don’t think that quote is from Axios….

    Time123 (6e0727) — 11/25/2020 @ 11:39 am

    It’s not. Just shows more cheerleading from leftist media hacks.

    NJRob (25a29c)

  58. What part of NO! Don’t you understand never trumpers? The now populist republican party doesn’t want YOU! 74,000,000 republican party voters say it will do just fine with out you neo-con artists, economic libertarian free trade conservatives and your wealthy donor class. Reagan free trade corporatism is dead the republican partys new fuhrer is trump.

    asset (f079a7)

  59. 74,000,000 republican party voters say it will do just fine

    You’re going to get tired of so much ‘winning’

    Dustin (4237e0)

  60. And the Flynn case is now moot.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  61. Trump pardons ‘Mickey’ Flynn.

    How giving.

    Be thankful, Boy-o.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  62. So I see your conversion to leftism is complete. It was all about how nice they were, not about principles. NICE.

    Also Flynn has been pardoned!! LOVE IT. Freedom reigns. Sullivan and others who wanted to punish an innocent citizen and break our justice system hardest hit.

    PH2 (2134ae)

  63. Isn’t that figure of 74,000,000 votes for Trump based on the same system that Trump has conclusively proved was fatally corrupted by massive fraud? Shouldn’t Trump supporters really claim that 80,000,000 or better yet 85,000,000 people voted for Trump? Any lower number really shows a lack of faith and loyalty.

    Victor (4959fb)

  64. In a weird way, asset is right, NT needs to become the modern day equivalent of Richard Shelby and Ben Nighthorse Campbell. It probably is the best way to checkmate the worst urges of the left side of the Dem ledger.

    urbanleftbehind (fb8d50)

  65. “I had to fire General Flynn because he lied to the Vice President and the FBI. He has pled guilty to those lies. It is a shame because his actions during the transition were lawful. There was nothing to hide!”

    Davethulhu (6e0d47)

  66. Pardoning Flynn now is the clearest sign that, despite his protestations, Trump knows he’s leaving office on January 20th.

    whembly (c30c83)

  67. There is a new post up about the Flynn pardon.

    Dana (6995e0)

  68. Fox News coverage of testimony on Gettysburg, Pennsylvania with witnesses brought by Giuliani.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc-HQyBm8GU

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  69. Donald Trump is an idiot and a louse, but one thing that can be said about him as President is that he was never afraid to tell anybody exactly what was on his mind at any given moment.

    Yeah, well, like that’s your opinion, man. Trump lied every time he opened his mouth, about every thing, big or small, and if you think that’s some kind of courage, or any near facsimile thereof, please wait a couple of minutes to tell me while I find a brace for my jawbone.

    nk (1d9030)

  70. 28 at 20 minutes Giuliani argues his case. At 25:15 Giuliani talks about 700,000 extra ballots received that were on their website until yesterday.

    20,000 ballots returned before they were mailed.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  71. Many Republican candidates won who weren’t expected to win, but Trump lost. The GOP made gains in the House and may hang on to the Senate, but Trump lost. It is hard to see Trump’s loss as anything other than a victory for people who don’t like Trump. IOW, Trump lost; Never Trump won.

    DRJ (aede82)

  72. * the link is at 68. Some of what Giuliani says, like about who was ahead changing was predicted and has a simple explanation – many more Biden voters voted by mail. In some states, like North Carolina, mail in ballots were counted first. The opposite in Virginia.

    Testimony begins at about 33 minutes.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  73. DRJ (aede82) — 11/25/2020 @ 5:00 pm

    Many Republican candidates won who weren’t expected to win, but Trump lost. The GOP made gains in the House and may hang on to the Senate, but Trump lost. It is hard to see Trump’s loss as anything other than a victory for people who don’t like Trump. IOW, Trump lost; Never Trump won.

    That’s right.

    Or you could put it as: Joe Biden was more popular than his party.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  74. It is hard to see Trump’s loss as anything other than a victory for people who don’t like Trump. IOW, Trump lost; Never Trump won.

    Great. What did they win?

    If we start a NeverNeverTrump movement, and the non-Trump candidate loses to a Democrat in 2024, do we win?

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  75. 66.Pardoning Flynn now is the clearest sign that, despite his protestations, Trump knows he’s leaving office on January 20th.

    The fact anybody actually, truly believes or believed otherwise is a tribute to his showmanship.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  76. They ended Trump’s Presidency.

    DRJ (aede82)

  77. I don’t think your comment is in line with the Norcal/Rob/Rad conversation that was happening. At the risk of putting words in his mouth I think Rob’s saying that Rad’s feelings about Trump make it hard for him to understand Norcal’s remarks.

    Time123 (89dfb2) — 11/25/2020 @ 12:54 pm

    Sorry, but you’re uncharacteristically way off on this. Dana’s comment was perfectly in line with the conversation. Rob called for norcal to be banned for an implausibly bad faith reading of norcal’s comment. The assertion that norcal advocated killing anybody is absurd on its face. By Rob’s reasoning, if I compare Trump to Pol Pot I want him to die in his sleep, but if I compare him to Lucky Luciano I want him deported to Italy.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  78. They ended Trump’s Presidency.

    They started Biden’s, and maybe Kamala’s. Winning.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  79. The real question here is, how many of these 73-odd million Republicans actually voted for Trump?

    In other words, how many voted party, against Democrats, as voted for Trump? Most voted anti-Biden, less voted pro-Trump.

    Trump’s cult base is actually very small. Why Republicans fear them is beyond my comprehension.

    The more the GOP (Gratuitously Obsequious Party) supports Trump, and his cult base, the more it looses.

    Trump is bankruptcy writ large. And that’s the bottom line. Every business he’s ever started has failed. He’s a complete failure as a businessman, as a politician, and as a man. He’s a serial adulterer, a serial divorcer, a pretend-to-be Christian, and how or why anyone could support him is beyond belief.

    Why fear this fraud? Are we not Americans and Christians? Then why are we promoting this total fraud and his assault on democracy for his own personal gain?

    History will remember. Americans will remember. These days are dark times, but it’s always darkest before the dawn.

    I don’t expect bright sunlight to come out of the Biden administration. I expect a dimmer dawn, after the Trump administration.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  80. Going forwards, I expect every criticism of Biden/Harris to be met with “whaddabout Trump!”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  81. 80. Be pepared to distinguish between “I don’t care because Trump did worse” and “You have no standing to complain. You defended Trump.” I reject and want no part of the former, and fully intend to use the latter.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  82. *prepared

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  83. Sorry, but you’re uncharacteristically way off on this. Dana’s comment was perfectly in line with the conversation. Rob called for norcal to be banned for an implausibly bad faith reading of norcal’s comment. The assertion that norcal advocated killing anybody is absurd on its face. By Rob’s reasoning, if I compare Trump to Pol Pot I want him to die in his sleep, but if I compare him to Lucky Luciano I want him deported to Italy.

    lurker (d8c5bc) — 11/25/2020 @ 7:45 pm

    Strawman noted. Though it is fascinating that you chose another mass murderer for comparison.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  84. You are either calling for the murder of the President and his family or the President and his supporters. Either is vile. Both should be bannable.
    NJRob (eb56c3) — 11/25/2020 @ 11:02 am

    which I characterized as

    Rob called for norcal to be banned for an implausibly bad faith reading of norcal’s comment. The assertion that norcal advocated killing anybody is absurd on its face.

    Where’s the strawman?

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  85. Your remarks about Pol Pot and Luciano are the straw buddy. But you knew that. Norcal knew what he said was beyond the pale. He should’ve just stepped it back and realized that comparing the President to 3 savage murderers who were removed by death through a bombing and military campaign is not remotely equivalent.

    So continue piling on. I expect it.

    The constant 2 minutes of hate is tiresome. It’s been 4 years. Stop emoting.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  86. Your flailing attempt to change the subject is transparent and inept.

    You don’t know what “strawman” means.

    You’re a bad mind reader.

    Bye.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  87. I’ve kept on subject and remained polite. You have tried to deflect and distract. Goodbye.

    NJRob (798e55)

  88. Let me know when y’all want to grow up and be adults again, GOP politicians. Until then, I will remain out.

    Yep.

    Dave (1bb933)

  89. What will it take to remind you that Democrat politicians are often less principled. Getting stuck in an elevator with Chuck Schumer?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  90. What will it take to remind you that Democrat politicians are often less principled.

    Who needs reminding?

    The problem is the GOP, not the Democrats, made a Faustian bargain to back and remain slavishly loyal to the worst person who’s ever been near the White House. And like elections, selling your soul has consequences.

    The Democrats are awful, but at this moment the Republicans are worse.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  91. I mean, look at this batsh*t insanity our CiC retweeted yesterday. His cultists will buy it, his enablers in Congress will say nothing about it, and we’ll be another increment smaller and weaker for it to the world.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  92. Saddam Hussein was arrested, tried, convicted, and hanged. His two son went down fighting. Saddam himself had already killed his sons-in-law. A little knowledge spares the fainting couch.

    nk (1d9030)

  93. And, BTW, Happy Thanksgiving!

    nk (1d9030)

  94. Re: 92…Jared just said “oh sh#%”…and considering the groypers blame him for losing 5% of the white male vote for 2 to 6% gains of every other demographic, he might be feeling a little force-choked at the kiddie table later today.

    urbanleftbehind (5ff8b8)

  95. but one thing that can be said about him as President is that he was never afraid to tell anybody exactly what was on his mind at any given moment

    No, he was much less afraid to tell preposterous lies than most other people. He was also not very afraid to take people on, at least until he got significant pushback. He was fond of quoting what other people said, if it seemed to support his position, regardless of the argument the people he was quoting were using.

    Sometimes he was afraid to tell the truth about important matters that would have made him look better like that the Regeneron antibodies were a cure, which he stopped saying.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  96. Gawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 11/25/2020 @ 7:57 pm

    Trump’s cult base is actually very small. Why Republicans fear them is beyond my comprehension.

    Well, it could be 20% of the Republican primary electorate. But even most of them are not so loyal to Trump – they just tend to believe the things that are being said by media they trust. Combined with deep distrust of Democrats maybe.

    I think it takes a lot of common sense to realize that Donald Trump does not have that much of a cult base.

    how or why anyone could support him is beyond belief.

    I think these voters are people who really don’t know much about Donald Trump – or about much of anything else for that matter. And then they may know that people do lie about Trump.

    Why fear this fraud?

    They’re not used to, as part of their election campaigning, telling people that they are wrong.

    Also, they don’t understand why they get things wrong.

    I don;t think many Republicans are outright helping Trump. They’re content to let him twist, slowly, slowly in the wind. It might work out better that way.

    Even Joe Biden didn’t want to push it – to sue. His people figured that, given the time it would take for a judge to rule that his probable election must be recognized and official transition activities start, it wouldn’t, in almost any scenario, advance things very much. So why undertake the lawsuit?

    And it did get started before Thanksgiving

    One funny thing happened. Donald Trump tweeted on Sunday November 15: “He won” followed by a claim that it was illegitimate. But all that some people looked at was “he won” So Donald Trump issued another tweet within an hour or two that said he was not conceding. That caused Ron Klain, Joe Biden’s chief of staff to be, to say or tweet something very close to “Donald Trump’s Twitter feed doesn’t make Joe Biden president or not president.”

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  97. I think also maybe some are afraid Trump could take action they won’t like, or that he won’t listen to them.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  98. I’m not sure why the USSC didn’t moot this USSC 5-4 ruling. NY changed the rules from fixed numbers of people in a room to percent capacity.
    And as I understand it, the attention on Orthodox Jews was because they refused to mask up at indoor services.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  99. the worst person who’s ever been near the White House

    I think he’s got plenty of competition for that honor.

    Andy Jackson — told John Marshall to GFY and used the army to forcibly remove the assimilating Cherokee from lands white men wanted.

    Tyler, Filmore, Pierce: merely very bad. Might have been nice guys.

    James Buchanan — last president to support slavery. When he heard that the SUpreme Court was going to rule for Dredd Scott he intervened and got them to rule against, in toder to settle the slavery thing once and for all. After Lincoln won and the South seceded, he gave them aid and comfort. His actions led to Civil War.

    Woodrow Wilson — After the Republicans had integrated the civil service during Reconstruction, Wilson ordered it resegregated. He was a supporter of the New Klan and did his best to bring Jim Crow to DC.

    https://www.history.com/news/woodrow-wilson-racial-segregation-jim-crow-ku-klux-klan

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  100. I’m not sure why the USSC didn’t moot this USSC 5-4 ruling. NY changed the rules from fixed numbers of people in a room to percent capacity.

    Because a majority on the court wanted to make it clear that different tests for religious organizations were not acceptable and they wanted to make a ruling on that while it was still meaningful.

    While NY may not have continued an absolute ban, other places have. I would imagine that the rules for a temple and a Walmart need to be the same capacity-wise under this ruling, and you can close both or neither, and require masks at both or neither.

    Saying that churches, etc, are not as essential as a liquor store struck them as a value judgement denigrating the right to free expression.

    And it was not just the Orthodox. The Catholic diocese of NY was also a plaintiff.

    Having said that, though, I hope that NYC fines the crap out of that temple that held that 7000-person maskless wedding gathering. Me, I’d nail the doors shut.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  101. Well, it could be 20% of the Republican primary electorate. But even most of them are not so loyal to Trump – they just tend to believe the things that are being said by media they trust. Combined with deep distrust of Democrats maybe.

    A different GOP candidate who was willing to address the same issues and could claim to be able to get results might be able to co-opt them. And some of them will return to the ranks of the disaffected non-voters.

    The issues of making America more attractive to manufacturers, to protect American tradesmen from waves of desperate immigrants willing to work (for a while) at low wages, and reversing laws that actually encourage (if not subsidize) overseas outsourcing are all issues that will remain after Trump.

    The pendulum swings, and right now it is swinging away from unfettered trade and toward dealing with the externalities of such trade. The GOP needs to address this going forward. God knows the Democrats will.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  102. made a Faustian bargain to back and remain slavishly loyal to the worst person who’s ever been near the White House*.

    Yes they did. And Cruz brokered it. They said “we will back you, but you will appoint judges from our lists.” And the Senate did almost nothing in the last few years but confirm judges, using the nuclear option twice (first to remove the filibuster, second to cut the debate time the Democrats were gaming).

    ————-
    * this assessment is disputed.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  103. RGB and Obama made the same mistake, that Hillary was going to appoint judges for four years, and it was a damn consequential mistake.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  104. Since I seriously doubt that Trump could tell a good judge from a shoe salesman, I think the GOP got that part of the bargain. But it was Faustian in that it involved their soul. Time will tell if they sold it, or only rented it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  105. Question: If a law is challenged and the case finally gets to the Supreme Court, but once it does the locality changes the law, should the Court moot the case?

    The locality might change it right back, making this a cruel game of delay. Or should the Court proceed, since even enjoining the locality against changing the law back would require the same scrutiny?

    There also may be similarly situated laws and entities awaiting the ruling

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  106. Oh, Happy Thanksgiving all.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  107. 100. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/26/2020 @ 8:56 am

    Having said that, though, I hope that NYC fines the crap out of that temple that held that 7000-person maskless wedding gathering. Me, I’d nail the doors shut.

    They’ll give them the standard threatened $15,000 fine (which is nor graduated according to the size of the gathering. Of course, the wedding cost a lot more than that.

    Anything more, of course, would be ex post facto.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/24/nyregion/williamsburg-jewish-wedding-coronavirus-covid-masks.html

    tate officials ordered the Satmar community in Orange County to cancel a series of weddings planned for Monday night, but it was unclear if the group complied with that order.
    The wedding in Brooklyn, which lasted for more than four hours, was held at the Yetev Lev D’Satmar synagogue in Williamsburg and celebrated the marriage of Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, the grandson of Satmar Grand Rabbi Aaron Teitelbaum. The bride’s name could not be determined.

    Last month, Satmar leaders canceled another wedding in Williamsburg, which they said expected 10,000 guests, that was to be held for the grandson of Rabbi Teitelbaum’s brother and longtime rival, Grand Rabbi Zalman Teitelbaum.

    An account of the wedding was published on Nov. 11 by Der Blatt, a Yiddish-language newspaper closely aligned with the Satmar leadership in Williamsburg. The New York Post then published a story about the wedding on Saturday, citing Der Blatt and videos that it obtained of the event.

    Der Blatt described the wedding as “an experience for which words do not suffice” and “a celebration the likes of which we have rarely had the good fortune to experience,” according to a translation provided by Hasidic activists.

    The newspaper also said it knew about the wedding in advance but had participated in an elaborate scheme to hide the event “so as not to attract an evil eye from the ravenous press and government officials, who have in the past exploited the present situation to disrupt already-planned simchas,” a Hebrew word for a joyful event.

    “All notices about upcoming celebrations were passed along through word of mouth, with no notices in writing, no posters on the synagogue walls, no invitations sent through the mail, nor even a report in any publication, including this very newspaper,” it wrote.

    The story was first broken in the New York Post, which also obtained some video. The headline was something like Temple’s big fat illegal wedding / And the subheadline started Mazel cough!

    http://nypost.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

    The story was written by a woman. The information almost certainly didn’t come from anyone close to the families. The source was apparently some now secular people who almost crusade against the community for a variety of reasons. There seems to be contradictory information about the first name of the bride.

    Both rival Satmar rebbes (they are brothers) seem to try to make the highest number of wedding guests (ever assembled?) at their family celebrations. I don’t know when this started. It’s bigger than those two. Some rabbis in Israel have been trying to stop this trend of bigger and bigger weddings. It can impoverish people. Or prevent marriages. Almost two thousand years ago a great Rabbi – Rabban Gamliel – ordered that he buried in very simple covering to stop the trend of more and more lavish funerals and it took.

    From a website:

    “Formerly, the expense of carrying out the dead was harder on the family than the death itself; the family therefore abandoned the corpse and fled… [This practice changed when] Rabban Gamliel [President of the Sanhedrin] disregarded his own dignity, and had his body carried out in flaxen shrouds. Afterwards, all the people followed his lead and had themselves carried out in flaxen shrouds.”

    Babylonian Talmud, Moed Katan 27a-27b

    One important Rabbi is Israel even said something like God sent this plague to stop this practice of too big weddings. (He would pick something he opposed as the reason or one reason.) A few years ago some Rabbis tried to institute limitations on weddings but it didn’t take.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  108. Happy Thankgiving to you Kevin!

    Dustin (4237e0)

  109. Joe Biden is reported to be seriously considering naming as Attorney General…

    Merrick Garland!

    He’d presumably be in line for the first Supreme Court appointment.

    This would be criticized by the “progressives” on grounds of age and ideology but Biden could have an answer that he has to deal with Mitch McConnell.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  110. The wedding was a civil protest. We’ve learned from the left that the right to protest is sacrosanct and cannot be stopped whether rioting or pillaging is involved. Mask wearing optional.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  111. 68. This YouTube video stops before the end. I don;t know where the continuation is to be found.

    The bottom line is that anything about USB drives and this being easy is not true, because it would require co-ordination to get different records in line with each other.

    Every electronic vote must have a matching paper ballot, down to the precinct level. There is supposed to be a paper record of the results of the scanning machines.

    Every ballot (or the number of ballots at least) must be matched to a voter.

    For every vote there must have a signature, which is at least supposed to be matched against an earlier signature of a registered voter.

    What they didn’t let them see is if every, or even any, paper ballot was validly cast.

    The election machinery was entirely in the hands of one party in each county.

    They also allowed voters to be contacted if mail-in ballots had problems (and told to vote i person by provisional ballot) – but only in some counties.

    There is also a possible claim of the possibility of ballots being switched after being opened but this would require a large number of people to be involved in filling them out.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  112. 110. To do that, somebody had to believe it wouldn’t lead to any bad consequence.

    Mostly because they believe that, because they were so hard hit earlier in the year, there is now herd immunity, (so no cases) or everybody among them is immune.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  113. They were flattening out mail in votes in one county in Pennsylvania in order to run them through the machine.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  114. There;s a lot I have to write about coronavirus and therapies and vaccines, but for prevention I think the number of times the air is exchanged in an hour is most important (in connection with how laarge an amount of virus might be breathed in)

    One viron or one droplet is not enough except possibly in an severely immunocompromised person, to give someone disease. It probably requires multiple exposures. Most aerosols or droplets contain no virus, but there are thousands of them emitted.

    THe Astra Zeneca better result from half doses is probably real, and the accidental nature of its discovery proof that allowing more experimentation is good.

    They haven’t explained exactly how it happened. They discovered it when they found some people given the vaccine had fewer side effects. One issue: Most or all of the people who got half doses were 55 years or younger.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  115. . To do that, somebody had to believe it wouldn’t lead to any bad consequence.

    Mostly because they believe that, because they were so hard hit earlier in the year, there is now herd immunity, (so no cases) or everybody among them is immune.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44) — 11/26/2020 @ 11:51 am

    Do the rioters believe their behaviors don’t have negative consequences? Well they believe they won’t experience negative consequences and those that do receive them, deserve them.

    If we refuse to live life and just stay huddled in fear, what are we living for?

    How many superspreader events resulted from the Notre Dame Fighting Irish fans storming the field after beating Clemson?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  116. Re: Merrick Garland & other Biden appointments:

    They will be appointed “Acting Secretary” avoiding Senate confirmation.

    Rip Murdock (8cb7cc)

  117. How many superspreader events resulted from the Notre Dame Fighting Irish fans storming the field after beating Clemson?
    It was a religious service protected by the First Amendment.

    Rip Murdock (8cb7cc)

  118. NJRob (eb56c3) — 11/26/2020 @ 12:17 pm

    How many superspreader events resulted from the Notre Dame Fighting Irish fans storming the field after beating Clemson?

    Interesting question.

    Outdoors, and in daylight, and not too cold, with nobody coughing or sneezing, its’ not considered reasonably possible to catch it, unless you spend one minute within one foot of people while not wearing a mask.

    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-10-coronavirus-rare-impossible.html

    …”The risk of transmission is much lower outside than inside because viruses that are released into the air can rapidly become diluted through the atmosphere,” the group explained, comparing the virus-carrying “aerosols” to cigarette smoke….

    ….The dose of viral particles needed to cause an infection is unknown, [and maybe different for different people -SF] but the larger the dose, “the greater the probability of infection,” Steve Elledge, a Harvard University geneticist and expert in viruses, told AFP.

    The time spent near a contagious person will be a key factor: a second on the sidewalk doesn’t seem to be enough to catch COVID-19. It probably takes at least several minutes….

    ….Linsey Marr, a well-known expert on airborne virus transmission from Virginia Tech, told AFP that she recommends wearing masks outside if the area is crowded and “you will be passing by people frequently, say, more than one per minute as a guideline but not an absolute rule.”

    “When we walk by people outside, we might catch a whiff of their exhaled breath plume,” she said. “Any single brief, passing exposure is low risk, but such exposures might add up over time.” [that is, you might get some virus from one person and some more from another and maybe a third, and it could add up and be too much for your body to handle without developing symptoms -SF]

    …There are too many variables to calculate the exact risk on a sidewalk or in a park—it depends on the wind and the number of people but also the sun.

    Ultraviolet rays deactivate the virus, but the speed at which they do so depends on the sun’s intensity (from a few minutes to an hour).

    ….”Having a universal agreement of continued use of mask is really the safest strategy,” said Kristal Pollitt, a professor of epidemiology and environmental engineering at Yale University.

    Not to mention that on a sidewalk, a passerby can sneeze the instant you walk by, she told AFP…

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  119. #68; You left out LBJ, who might be the single worst person, to say nothing of his policies and actions across the board, ever to hold the office. Nobody else comes anywhere close.

    Bugg (024e40)

  120. Prediction: The GOP Senate will approve most of Biden’s appointments quickly, and pick and choose their actual battles. Were they to stonewall or delay like the Democrats did in 2017-18, the press would crucify them (as it somehow failed to do with the Democrats).

    “Garland” is a Dem talking point, not an actual argument.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  121. Oh, I see. Garland as AG. He’ll get a serious grilling over RKBA. Depending on his answers he might not get confirmed.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  122. I’m going to take the time here to argue that Populism is a necessary part of Democracy. It’s a necessary corrective force when the People’s representatives forget who they work for.

    Getting a popular political uprising is hard, and hard to sustain. You are trying to get people who hate politics and would much rather be watching football, hiking, shopping or getting laid to do stuff like organizing and caucuses and canvassing precincts.

    They have to be REALLY pissed off, and a little bit desperate. It’s the canary in the coal mine. It is also a very blunt instrument, more shotgun than scalpel, and it rarely results in fixing things. But it breaks what isn’t working pretty damn good.

    The task now is to construct a better way forward than what we had before. Ignoring the uprising is begging for worse. Just ask Czar Nicholas II.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  123. 115, U. of Notre Dame had one of the first mass college outbreaks back in August/September and the crowd was mostly student population and families of players, not casual fans, “subway” alumni or real alumni. It’s possible there may have been a herd immunity achieved within that group by the date of that contest.

    urbanleftbehind (0200ff)

  124. Disagree about Vindman, although I will grant that you are a member of a very small subset who have positive working relationships with snitches… but everyone else hates/distrusts them, so I don’t see anyone sane giving him a job. (Excluding the oh so sane “offer” of Minister of Defense Ukraine)

    steveg (43b7a5)

  125. At least the hanging out with rappers late in the presidential campaign rubbed off in a positive productive way:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-55105934

    urbanleftbehind (0200ff)

  126. Most potential superspreader events never become one. That may be getting a little lost.

    And in many cases they don’t know where it was contracted – no clue. It may hang around in the air, in a bathroom say, or a large quantity of virs just happened to be breathed in.

    The number of cases is going up.

    Sammy Finkelman (1e81da)


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