Patterico's Pontifications

10/22/2020

(Final) Presidential Debate Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 4:41 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Tonight’s the big night. The final presidential debate between President Donald Trump and Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden. We have been informed that Biden has been doing some serious prep work for tonight’s event, while Trump has reportedly been so casual about preparing that he’s done even less of it this time than with the previous debate.

Anyway, here’s how the microphone muting will work:

“Under the agreed upon debate rules, each candidate is to have two minutes of uninterrupted time to make remarks at the beginning of each 15 minute segment of the debate. These remarks are to be followed by a period of open discussion,” the commission said in a statement. “Both campaigns this week again reaffirmed their agreement to the two-minute, uninterrupted rule.”
The statement continued: “The Commission is announcing today that in order to enforce this agreed upon rule, the only candidate whose microphone will be open during these two-minute periods is the candidate who has the floor under the rules. For the balance of each segment, which by design is intended to be dedicated to open discussion, both candidates’ microphones will be open.”

Both microphones will be unmuted after each candidate delivers their two-minute answer.

This will obviously be a problem for both candidates who are frequently afflicted with verbal diarrhea and an inability to Just. Be. Quiet. Trump aggressively talks over Biden in an effort to drown him out, provoke him, and frankly, wear him down. Meanwhile, Biden knows his stuff, but if Joe isn’t hopping mad and rambling, he is confused and rambling on, and on, and on, and oh my God, I’m already nodding off.

The topics for tonight’s debate are:

“Fighting COVID-19″
“American Families”
“Race in America”
“Climate Change”
“National Security”
“Leadership.”

Each segment will last about 15 minutes, and the candidates will have two minutes to respond after the moderator, NBC’s Kristen Welker, opens each segment with a question.

I suppose I should say something about the moderator, but I really don’t know too much about her, and I really can’t gin up any interest. Half of America is convinced she’s top drawer, the other half have condemned her as a biased hack. Previous presidential debate moderator Chris Wallace certainly struggled to stay in control during the previous debate melee and he has far more experience than does the 44-year old Welker. So good luck there.

And given that both candidates tested negative today, there will be no plexiglass separating them. I guess if tempers flare, and everything goes to hell, there really could be an actual throw-down between these two rich, old white guys because unfortunately, this is where we’re at. America!

President Trump wants you to know he is on his way:

Joe Biden wants you to know this is it:

And the inimitable P.J. O’Rourke wants to talk Biden and pixie dust rainbows, and Trump, the toddler-in-chief:

It can only get better, people. Right??

–Dana

307 Responses to “(Final) Presidential Debate Open Thread”

  1. Of all the gin joints in all the towns in America, these two clowns manage to walk onto a final presidential debate stage? Oh America, you have to do better!

    Dana (6995e0)

  2. BREAKING NEWS:

    To avoid the awful spectacle of tonight’s debate, God has turned both President Trump and Joe Biden into pillars of salt.

    qdpsteve (8d496a)

  3. As some of you may have already guessed, I am not Mr. President Donald Trump’s biggest fan, but ….

    If I were either the President of the United States or the other party’s candidate for the Presidency, and some media dipwiddles told me that they would be muting our microphones in their media event labeled a debate, I would call my opponent and ask him to join me in statement telling them, the media dipwiddles, where they can shove their microphones, and their so-called debate too. Graphically. Loudly. Often. And I would do it whether my opponent joined me or not, letting him “debate himself” if that’s how he wanted it.

    nk (1d9030)

  4. Whomever slipped the good stuff into Dustin’s coffee, slipped some into nk’s as well.

    qdpsteve (8d496a)

  5. Looking forward to after the election, when hopefully this place isn’t 24/7 politics politics politics.

    I wanna have a good debate over which cut of steak is the best. Filet? Ribeye? NY strip?

    qdpsteve (8d496a)

  6. And given that both candidates tested negative today, there will be no plexiglass separating them.

    It’s a trap!

    Dave (1bb933)

  7. It’s hard to imagine Trump coming across worse than the first debate.

    But I’m cautiously optimistic that he’ll find a way.

    Dave (1bb933)

  8. God got a bad Garmin:
    https://twitter.com/ABC7Chicago/status/1319252164892631042?s=20

    And is there any stick-up-nose photographic proof of testing?

    urbanleftbehind (7d9d99)

  9. Go Rays

    mg (8cbc69)

  10. I just watched this Bobulinski character make his media statement, and it appears that Trump invited him to the debate. If I didn’t know any better, I’d say the timing and coordination of these “revelations”–including Hunter’s “laptop”–were well planned out by Trump’s supplicants. It definitely feels like we’re not getting the full story. From anyone.
    Funny thing, though. Trump must’ve a made a decent amount of Chinese coin to be paying $188 grand in taxes over three years.
    What I don’t expect to see from Trump is a vision for America’s future, because he doesn’t have one. I do expect to see a lot of unhinged lashing out.
    On the Biden side, I expect he’ll muddle through the debate, just like he’ll muddle through a presidency, assuming he wins that job.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  11. It seems clear Trump will go after Biden’s family; if Biden won’t take the bait, Trump will either keep turning up the volume and becoming increasingly obnoxious, or he’ll be forced to move on to something else.

    I think more likely of the two scenarios is obvious.

    Dave (1bb933)

  12. Oh America, you have to do better!

    “What America needs are leaders to match the greatness of her people!” – The Big Dick, 8/8/1968

    That went well, didn’t it. =sarc=

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  13. Over in the Twitterverse, someone suggested that Biden invite Sasha Baron Cohen to the debate.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  14. 13,

    Lol.

    Dana (6995e0)

  15. If the FBI had subpoenaed the laptop, why did they refuse to accept it when it was offered? Why wasn’t it made available internally at the FBI to the folks who were after it?

    Lt. Bobaloo has set quite the bar. Sen. Johnson seems about as angry about all this as the Lt.. Odds that Johnson allows a full transcript of the Lt’s testimony which I am assuming will be under oath?

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  16. Biden is a crook looking to cash in on his position, and that/s been true for as long as he’s been in office..He has always been the Senator from MBNA. If the MFM wants to ignore that, it’s gonna bite them. You can only scream RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA so many times until even the Dems have to acknowledge this will be a disaster if he gets in the Oval Office.

    Interest free loans to the Biden family from China is bad; how is this not being discussed?

    Bugg (ebf485)

  17. Joe claimed to the IRS over $16 million in income since he left office. He reported assets totalling $3.5 to the FEC in his sworn financial disclosure. Where did they money go?

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  18. On the eve of the debate, rounding the corner.
    Yesterday: 64,067 new cases and 1,224 more Americans dead from CV19.
    Today: 70,964 new case and 925 more dead Americans.
    Yep, I think Trump’s strategy should definitely be arm waving, then lots of accordion hands, followed by loud noises, interrupting and “HUNTER BIDEN!”

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  19. Trump must’ve a made a decent amount of Chinese coin to be paying $188 grand in taxes over three years.

    Chump change for a billionaire.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  20. @16 There has been a neverending series of disasters under the Trump administration. 1 disaster (even 1 disaster at a time) would be a relief.

    Nic (896fdf)

  21. @17: The asset disclosure forms require assets to be declared in a range, like “between $1M and $5M in real estate.” It’s no use trying to connect dots.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  22. Biden walks up while taking his mask off, and even I’m rolling my eyes at that.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  23. @22. Shuffles…

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  24. I like it when Plagiarist JoeyBee looks down. It’s his coffin look. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  25. Rounding the corner!

    Dave (1bb933)

  26. Covid:
    Trump: China’s fault. Then he uses statistics which seem almost coherent. Vaccine. Military. And he’s immune now. Basking in congratulations from other countries.
    Biden: It’s Trump’s fault. All those people are dead because of Trump. People are still getting sick and it’s Trump’s fault, too. Biden’s plan: wear mask, rapid testing, $afe $chool$. I will END THIS!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  27. Covid…. so silly; it’s is like questioning weathermen about what they’d do about thunderstorms.

    “I will end this.”- Joe Biden.

    “No miracle is coming.” – Joe Biden

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  28. Doom! Doom! Doom! – Joe Biden.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  29. Trump is going to use military to distribute vaccine.

    Biden wants to take his time with the vaccine.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  30. Joe is slurring his words.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  31. Trump claims that Biden would have completely screwed up. I’m pretty sure that Biden would have screwed it up just as badly, but probably not any worse. It’s really easy to criticize from your armchair.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  32. As designed by the Commission and Moderator, Biden is off to a great start. DJT does not understand he can interject after the original 4 minutes.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  33. I hope a miracle comes, and Trump promising to effectively end COVID in weeks with the help of a great general would feel miraculous.

    When you pick someone to work through a vicious world and make decisions on each crisis, do you want a guy who counts on miracles, or do you want a guy who assumes he’s going to have to solve his problems without miracles?

    So far this debate is going much better. Trump isn’t trying to screw with Biden at all, barely even referencing him (aside from the basement remark).

    Dustin (4237e0)

  34. Why does Biden keep looking down?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  35. Trump talks about avoiding shutting everything down. “We have to learn to live with this.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  36. “People are learning to die with it.”- Joe Biden

    Doom! Doom! Doom!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  37. Moderator corrects Trump for something he did not say.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  38. Biden knows how many people are going to die now.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  39. It’s really easy to criticize from your armchair.

    I agree it’s easy for everyone to say that COVID would have been fine without Trump. It would have been awful without Trump, though I don’t think it would have been as bad. The disinfo about masks and Fauci early, the claims it’s no big deal, it’s really fed a lack of teamwork in the nation.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  40. Trump blames China some more.
    Biden blames Trump some more.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  41. Moderator corrects Trump for something he did not say.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/22/2020 @ 6:15 pm

    Yeah the way she has framed COVID and interjected is retail MSM, but the bias is there.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  42. All of this was played out in the first debate. This is all a rehash. Need to move to new topic. But, Joe is winning, so we stay in it.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  43. Dustin,

    I have no issue with Trump screwing up late January and February. He should have slammed the borders shut (all of them) in late January and called on China publicly to stop letting the virus spread. He had the info. Of course, in the middle of an impeachment trial, some might have thought it cynical.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. if I didn’t know better, I’d think Trump was the one with difficulty organizing thoughts and expressions.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  45. Shut down the virus?????

    Biden is faster than a speeding bullet; able to leap tall buildings at a single bound!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  46. Trump is winning with people who are harmed by the shutdown, from businessmen to workers to moms home with the kids. Biden is winning with people impacted by health issues or concerned about them. Not that Biden is blaming Trump for us needing to shutdown — he knows that defending the shutdown is a loser.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  47. *NotE

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  48. I *LIKE* this format. Trump is actually behaving himself.

    So far.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  49. Doom! Doom! Doom!

    30 minutes arguing over thunderstorms.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  50. Trump is not being Trump. It is that simple. The squish advisors won out. Now, DJT will lose.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  51. Biden’s been better spoken that Trump so far, but that “I don’t see this as red states vs blue states, but damn red states look at those red states!” was some kind of rehearsed line he screwed up.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  52. Americans don’t panic, Joe????

    Guess your hired help bought your toilet paper.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  53. @51. He’s slurring his words.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  54. Is that the brain surgery scar o the right side of his head??

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  55. 1. Corona Virus: Lots of sick people, what’s the plan?

    Trump- But it didn’t kill 2,000,000. Other countries have it too, but we are doing great! Vaccine coming, military will distribute, I had it and got better through a therapeutic and now I’m immune. World wide problem but the other leaders think I’m doing great! All the ventilators. It’s getting better.

    Biden- 220,000 dead was too many and they were due to Trumps leadership sucking. There are still tons of people dying and we are doing way worse than Europe. The President’s leadership still sucks. I would encourage masks, rapid testing, national standards on how to open schools and businesses. Funding. Other people think Trump sucks too. I will be a leader.

    Moderator: Vaccine guarenteed?

    Trump: Nope, but probably. Lots of people in developing.

    Moderator: Our dudes think it’s going to take a while.

    Trump: Nope, we will be superfast.

    Moderator: Americans suspicious of vaccine, how do you handle that?

    Biden: Transparency. Trump is wrong about everything.

    Trump: Nope! All good! I did all the things right. Biden was slow in his response. H1N1 Biden was terrible. He would’ve killed 3X as many people as I did. How can he talk? We did all the things Biden said we should do.

    Biden: Trump is xenophobic but not because of China. Trump said China was doing great, didn’t use the defense act. Is blowing up our skirts with rosy thinking.

    Trump: Can’t hide. Aside about money. I can’t hide. It was dangerous and I learned a lot and got better. Most people get better. Have to open everything up.

    Monitor: Young people can get it.

    Biden: People are learning to die with disease (talking to the American people directly). Yes, it’s a dangerous disease but Trump not taking responsibility.

    Trump: I take responsibility but it’s China’s fault.

    Biden: President thought it would go away through wishful thinking.

    Trump: Nah ah. He called me a racist.

    Biden: No I didn’t, and you are taking me out of context.

    Moderator: New shutdowns? Can have a bid effect on people?

    Biden: It was all Trump’s fault we are where we are. His leadership sucked. Should’ve worked with Nancy and such.

    Moderator: Will you shut down?

    Biden: Maybe. Depends on circumstances. Schools need money for safety and Trump won’t give it.

    Trump: The Governors suck with the shutting down. Biden likes the sucky shutting down. My kid has a mild case so all kids must have a mild case.

    Moderator: Boston school outbreak?

    Trump: Whatever. Opening schools because economy is lousy.

    Biden: Careful opening, rapid testing, tracing, safe open. Trump is saying if only some teachers die it’s fine.

    Trump: Plexiglass costs too much and people don’t like it. New York is sad.

    Biden: I am bipartisan. I love all Americans. I want to take care of all Americans. Lets distribute the money.

    Trump: Cuomo sucks. Whitmer sucks. N.C sucks. Open up regardless. We will protect people. We test so we have lots of cases (I don’t think it works like that.)

    Moderator: Fauci a disaster?

    Trump: Fauci is a democrat and says covid is all cool.

    Biden: Trump knew how dangerous and hid it. Americans don’t panic, he panicked. Also he gave information to wallstreet and not the rest of us.

    Trump: Wallstree owns you. I could get all the money from wallstreet, but it would put me in a bad position. I’m Rubber you’re glue. (off on a butthurt fundraising tangent, clearly bothered that Biden has raised more money)

    Nic (896fdf)

  56. Americans don’t panic, Joe????

    Yes. He didn’t see the Walmart shelves in mid-March.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  57. Everything would being horded except vegan food. I guess vegans don’t panic.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  58. *was

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  59. Trump’s more alive than Biden.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  60. Of course, in the middle of an impeachment trial, some might have thought it cynical.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/22/2020 @ 6:19 pm

    Oh yeah they would, but ideally Trump would have had advisors who understood the stakes.

    I want to know what they put in Biden’s coffee. Adderall? He’s slipping here and there but he’s definitely coming across better than usual.

    Trump is not being Trump. It is that simple. The squish advisors won out. Now, DJT will lose.

    Ed from SFV (f64387) — 10/22/2020 @ 6:23 pm

    I wish I was in tune enough to have any idea about that. Honestly Trump is coming across so much better than usual. They both are. When Trump told us he loved his city and expressed frustration that its vibrancy is dying, that seemed to be authentic concern. Sometimes when you calm down, the strength of your views actually has a chance to come across.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  61. “All those foreign countries want Trump re-elected! They fear me!”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  62. Biden’s lying.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  63. When Trump told us he loved his city and expressed frustration that its vibrancy is dying, that seemed to be authentic concern.

    There’s a lot to love about NYC. Especially if you have money.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  64. Joe has crib notes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  65. Joe lied his butt off about a single penny from other countries. Moderator just bailed out Joe from DJT’s direct challenge. Great deflection. He will never have to answer for “big guy.”

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  66. Biden, when asked how he will deal with the virus ends his answer with make sure we have a plan. He doesn’t have a plan but he’ll get busy working on one if elected. It’s a good thing “having a plan” is the solution.

    frosty (f27e97)

  67. Joe attacks capitalism.

    Love it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  68. DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/22/2020 @ 6:33 pm

    I wasn’t sure. It looked like he was falling asleep.

    frosty (f27e97)

  69. Nothing was unethical.

    Huh, Joe????????? “C’mon, man!”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  70. Biden’s lying.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/22/2020 @ 6:31 pm

    But Trump keeps making so many accusations he comes across as desperate. He’s promising if he spent a million bucks he could find something on Biden. That sounds so pathetic! He’s criticizing Biden for having a nice house, like the whole country didn’t recall how opulent Trump lives.

    Trump was doing better when he didn’t talk about Biden. Then it was the president vs the ankle biter. He wasn’t disciplined enough to keep that up.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  71. Bewildered Joe…. it’s down the hall and to the left.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  72. Joe lied his butt off about a single penny from other countries. Moderator just bailed out Joe from DJT’s direct challenge. Great deflection. He will never have to answer for “big guy.”

    Ed from SFV (f64387) — 10/22/2020 @ 6:34 pm

    I agree. Let him answer this stuff. Biden should have stuck with ‘I love my screw up son. Sue me!’ strategy. Promising his corrupt son is not is a real mistake in my opinion.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  73. Hey guys we’re going to get Trump’s tax returns, he said so, just as soon as the audit’s done, awesome

    Patterico (115b1f)

  74. Biden ha had 47 years to master the word games — you have to listen to him closely.

    ‘Not true’ is a response you’d get from Nixon. Again, Biden word games.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  75. MALARKEY!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  76. Outrageous moderation tonight. Biden, to his credit, is standing his ground and managing some parries that are hitting home to many.

    Oops. Biden just cracked. Wow.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  77. WTF is Biden talking about? 58% of Americans say they’re better off no than they were four yers ag.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  78. Biden’s answer on what to do about China was stupid and boring. This is the red meat. He didn’t even need to talk about Trump to answer that and he’s really rambling about Trump.

    I have no idea what specifically Biden will do about China, so I’m going to assume nothing.

    I dislike Trump enormously, but Trump had specifics. Maybe those economic policies were dumb (I think they were) but he had specifics, could name specific benefits to American industries.

    Trump will be kicking himself that he didn’t try this ‘just answer the effing questions and let the other guy answer’ concept. Turns out there’s a reason people go with that.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  79. Hey guys we’re going to get Trump’s tax returns, he said so, just as soon as the audit’s done, awesome

    Patterico (115b1f) — 10/22/2020 @ 6:40 pm

    LOL

    Biden’s best moment so far on the taxes. Made Trump look like a con man.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  80. Luntz gives TRUMP the first round on Covid. His group did not buy Biden. Wow.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  81. Biden thinks he can control North Korea???

    ROFLMAO

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  82. Hitler!

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  83. Hitler, Joe????

    O.M.G.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  84. Moderator: Foreign influence?

    Biden: I will make the badguys pay a price. Trump soft on foreign interference. Gulianni sucks. They don’t want me cause I’m tough. Trump is a big ol’ softy to bad foreigners.

    Moderator: What will you do Trump?

    Trump: Biden loves Putin, got money from Putin. I don’t get money from Russia. Nobody tougher than me on Russia. (er). I got NATO to pay. Pillows and sheets (? IDEK?) Putin walked into Ukraine because Russia paid you. Emails. Corruption. Hunter’s partner.

    Biden: I have never taken foreign money. Trump’s China’s taxes. I have never taken any money from foreigners. My tax returns are out. What is Trump hiding (directly at Trump). List of money foreigners have given him. China golf course.

    Trump: Usual lie about going to release taxes. I prepaid my taxes millions of dollars. I don’t make money from China. I’m rubber you’re glue. More re the emails.

    Moderators: When release taxes?

    Trump: The IRS hates me worse than the teaparty.

    Biden: Put up or shut up.

    Trump: Witch hunt. Mueller and the FBI suck but they cleared me. Threatens Biden with investigation.

    Moderator: Hunter’s entaglements?

    Biden: Nothing unethical. Ukraine- all the people who testified during Trump investigation said I did what I was supposed to do. Trump corrupt with Ukraine, Trump corrupt with China.

    Trump: Hunter sucks and only employable because of Joe.

    Biden: Nah uh. No proof, everyone says we are OK.

    Moderator: Chinese bank account?

    Trump: It’s a business account. And it’s closed anyway. Biden is all foreign corrupt because of his relatives.

    Moderator: China? Should they pay?

    Biden: They need to follow international rules. Trump made trade with China worse. I met with Xi and was tough. Trump in love with dictators. You pay by the rules or pay the price.

    Trump: Biden took Chinese money. His family took money.

    Moderator: What will you do about China?

    Trump: I’m making them pay (Biden interupts re Trump costing tax payer money).

    Biden: Talking to us about kitchen table decisions. Trump doesn’t want to talk about it.

    Trump: BIDEN IS A POLITICIAN NOT ME!!

    Moderator: N. Korean missile?

    Trump: Obama told me there could be war. Kim is lovely and we have a lovely relationship. There isn’t a war. (this sounds like appeasement to me)

    Biden: I’d get China more involved. I was tough with them before. Tough guy I will be in control stuff. Trump loves Kim who sucks and Trump made things way worse.

    Moderator: Precondtions to meet with Kim?

    Biden: If he agrees to draw down.

    Trump: Kim doesn’t like Obama.

    Biden: Yeah, cause we were tough on him you appeaser. (apparently Biden agreed with me)

    Trump: Obama Biden left us a mess and I cleaned it up.

    Nic (896fdf)

  85. Joe Biden is precisely why Trump was elected.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  86. Trump: “Kim loves me but he hated Obama!”

    Dave (1bb933)

  87. Please Joe– mention record players.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  88. While Trump is talking about Obamacare, my CBS (watching on my playstation so my options are limited) screen asks me ‘what would you do for Americans who lose their health insurance?’

    There’s no reason to add that to a debate. The moderation and the extra MSM stuff only fuels Trump’s angry supporters, convinced, for good reason, their views never get a fair shake.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  89. Another broken Trump promise deflected: He guaranteed N. Korea wouldn’t have nukes. Now that he’s failed to deliver on that, kissing up to Kim Jong Un in the process, he changes the subject to “we’re not at war.” Well duh. We weren’t at war before either. The urgent need was to deprive them of the nukes they’re now four years further down the road toward perfecting, not to elevate and legitimize the world’s most notorious thug.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  90. Infrastrucure plan???? What did you do for 47 years about that, Joe?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  91. Joe- a public option IS a socialist plan.

    Idiot.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  92. Trump is behaving himself (so far), except for all the lies.

    Paul Montagu (d73c00)

  93. I stopped watching, but I have this take-away: The Trump who showed up in the first debate was altered. He could well have been symptomatic of Covid but too proud/stubborn/stupid to back away.

    Either that or he’s taken a few diazepam.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  94. Trump is behaving himself (so far), except for all the lies.

    Joe lies almost as much — he’s just far better at it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  95. ‘affordable healthcare.’

    Who decides wht’s “affordable” Joe? A $50,000 Corvette is affordable… to you…

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  96. 92. He’s lying at a dizzying rate.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  97. Now Trump’s rambling in a fake Joe Biden voice and making sure Bernie fans show up to vote. OK buddy.

    And here’s Biden to insist he beat those Bernie bros and doesn’t agree with them. Why not leave that unspoken? Trump’s getting under Biden’s skin.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  98. @94. U.F.Joe lies like a swamp-gassed senator.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  99. EARTH TO JOE: you have not lived in Scranton for 67 years!!!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  100. Moderator: ACA?

    Trump: Individual mandate sucked and I got rid of it. Obamacare sucks, but I ran it well. But it still sucks. But it isn’t Obamacare any more. I’ll protect pre-existing condition provisions. I’ll have a great plan! We are going to win the house. Lots of people have great private healthcare and Biden will take it away.

    Moderator: What if supreme court ends obamacare?

    Biden: Obamacare but public options, drug price reduction through competition and negotiation. I support private insurance and the left hated me for it. Trump is lying about pre-existing conditions and he never has a plan. And he’s bad at infrastructure too. Numbers about people who will lose insurance under Trump.

    Moderator: Socialized medicine?

    Biden: Nope, people get a choice between public and private. People love my plan. Talks directly to us again re health insurance struggles.

    Trump: 47 yrs + 8 years but didn’t do it. (I think the math is bad there 😛 ) Harris is more liberal than Sanders. Fracking. Complements moderator.

    Biden: People deserve healthcare and I’ll give it to them, but it will cost money. (refreshingly honest on that)

    Trump: Public option will destroy medicare and social security. Sanders sucks.

    Biden: I’m not Sanders, stop running against Sanders. Trump is currently destroying social security.

    Trump: Nuh uh. Biden hates SS. And he’ll crash the stock market.

    Biden: Regular people have other financial things to deal with than the stock market. What about the regular people

    Trump: Not from Scranton. 401ks are great.

    Nic (896fdf)

  101. BTW, I did watch that PJ O’Rourke video and thought he’s pretty spot on. His disaffection from the GOP in general is unfortunate, but then he was always more a spectator than a participant. He’s spot on about the awful, terrible, no-good choice we have.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  102. Joe lies almost as much — he’s just far better at it.

    Also? Sure.

    Almost as much? Lol.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  103. See how Joe changes the subject? Slimeball.

    ‘Sh!tties??’ Joe!!!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  104. Numbers about people who will lose insurance under Trump.

    *I* goddam lost health insurance when Obamacare started, got it replaced by the world’s crappiest insurance and double the price, then lost THAT when they priced it out of sight.

    I don’t want to hear about how Obamacare saved jillions. It fukked ME.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  105. Red states, blue states, United States…’

    Biden just plagiarized Obama.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  106. Almost as much? Lol.

    As I said, he’s better at it. And quoting the MSM is lying most of the time anyway.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  107. Nope, Kevin. Biden’s garden hose of lies doesn’t compare to Trump’s firehose of lies.

    Paul Montagu (c8ec6a)

  108. Do not ever praise Obamacare to a self-employed person.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  109. Moderator: The economy?

    Trump: Nancy sucks and won’t approve anything. (IIRC, it was trump who shut down negotions)

    Biden: McConnell said publically they couldn’t pass a deal.

    Moderator: Biden, why haven’t you done more?

    Biden: There’s a bill sitting there ready to go. Trump won’t do it. McConnell won’t do it.

    Trump: The bill sucks. It gives money to criminals. They want to give money to illegal aliens (??) Bailout for Democrats.

    Biden: I’m Bipartisan. President of all Americans. We need to take care of everyone.

    Moderator: Minimum wage?

    Biden: Yes, raise it. They’ll need help anyway, we might as well give it. Tangent on Covid recovery funding.

    Trump: Leave it to the states. (this is a good answer)

    Moderator: But you said you’d consider raising fed minimum wage.

    Trump: Maaaayyyyybeee.

    Biden: People should be able to live on their wages if they are working full time.

    Nic (896fdf)

  110. Well, Paul I guess you just read your Washington Post and nod at how accurate they are.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  111. Kid separation and chain link holding pens were begin by OBAMA. This moderator is worst ever.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  112. I love it when Trump says “go back and look at the records”, as if Trump went back and looked at the records.

    Paul Montagu (c8ec6a)

  113. First responders making minimum wages?? WTF is Biden talking about???

    ‘The average Fire Fighter salary in California is $53,036 as of September 25, 2020, but the range typically falls between $39,778 and $66,296. Salary ranges can vary widely depending on the city and many other important factors, including education, certifications, additional skills, the number of years you have spent in your profession.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  114. DARPA is pretty much the best possible topic for Biden to reach the suburban moms.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  115. Mind you, I’m not voting for Trump for other reasons.

    PJ O’Rourke nailed it, talking about Trump as “the baby at the top of the stairs” in his role in a crisis.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  116. @111. Her choice of topics are odd.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  117. I think she should have asked Biden who built the cages.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  118. Biden just said he wants to make illegal aliens legal.

    Fvck him.

    “We owe them???”

    Bull.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  119. Biden keeps slurring his words.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  120. Biden is mansplaining the moronic moderator

    mg (8cbc69)

  121. DCSCA,

    Paramedics are lucky to make $20/hour.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  122. Kid separation and chain link holding pens were begin by OBAMA. This moderator is worst ever.

    Ed from SFV (f64387) — 10/22/2020 @ 7:02 pm

    I am out of touch with how people think about these things, but I think that helps Trump. If every point he scores is interrupted and shut down, the kind of people who watch debates notice. Trump is definitely improving voter turnout for his supporters tonight, and with expectations so hilariously low for him, he’s going to be considered the winner tonight by a lot of people.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  123. Well, Paul I guess you just read your Washington Post and nod at how accurate they are.

    Ad hom fallacy noted, Kevin. Another word for fact-checking is reporting, and the reporting from more than just a WaPo column is not on Trump’s side.

    Paul Montagu (c8ec6a)

  124. And you have never lived in Los Angeles, if you think $55K is a lot.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  125. Moderator: Immigration? Kids and parents?

    Trump: Bad people bring kids. Wall.

    Moderator: But what about the kids where we can’t find the parents?

    Trump (ignores the question)

    Moderator: But kids?

    Trump: They came by themselves.

    Biden: Nuh uh. They came with their parents and you took them away and it’s unAmerican.

    Trump: Obama/Biden’s fault.

    Biden: You separated the families. And now the kids are by themselves.

    Trump: Our orphanages are great. Who built the cages, Obama.

    Moderators: But immigration stuff sucked under Obama

    Biden: Yep, sometimes we made mistakes, I’ll fix them. DACA. Parents brought them, not their fault.

    Trump: Yeah, well, you didn’t do it before. I made immigration better.

    Biden: Let me explain this complicated thing. Trump’s asylum policy sucks.

    Trump: Biden doesn’t get it. It was all criminals. Only dumb people came to immigration hearing.

    Biden: I was right, look it up. Missing parents.

    Nic (896fdf)

  126. Hardly ad hominum. I’m attacking your sources, not you.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  127. Free healthcare for illegals, right Joe? Like Welker will ask.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  128. Luntz says his group basically thinks all pols are corrupt, so the whole exchange about Hunter and Burisma was for naught. Biden till seen as talking in generalities, which is a major turn off. Trump is seen as spending too much time defending himself and not speaking to the country.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  129. Tell us about Corn Pop, Joe.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  130. Another word for fact-checking is reporting, and the reporting from more than just a WaPo column is not on Trump’s side.

    I read the WaPo (and the NYT and LAT) and I know just how terrible they are when it comes to certain “facts.” They have a myopia that leads them to believe things that are not true. I call them lies. Biden is from that camp. Maybe there’s a better word.

    Do you think Biden saying that 200,000 deaths are Trump’s fault was true? DO you think it’s a significant lie, if false?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  131. Three letter word, D A C A

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  132. Biden is lying again about his own words. Incredible.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  133. So if Biden is going to end separating kids from their parents, does this mean kids will be sent to jail with their parents if the parents are arrested, or the parents simply won’t be arrested?

    Because the US government on every level separates kids from their parents when the government arrests the parents.

    Hoi Polloi (92d467)

  134. Biden needs the Gong to save him.

    mg (8cbc69)

  135. “I ran because of you.”

    Home run, Trump.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  136. Biden is lying again about his own words. Incredible.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/22/2020 @ 7:13 pm

    Catch him if you can?

    He’s a good liar.

    I miss Ann Richards democrats who thought there weren’t enough bad guys in prison. Granted, ideally there aren’t as many bad guys, but there are a lot of them today.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  137. Plagiarist talks about character??

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  138. If every COVID death belongs to Trump, even the ones that Cuomo killed, then every COVID death belongs to Biden after he is elected.

    Every.Single.One.

    Hoi Polloi (92d467)

  139. Welker just lied about DJT’s calling BLM “MOVEMENT” bad. He has always said it is the organization, NOT the people.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  140. @136. Not really- he was caught plagiarizing and had to quit in ’88 because of it.

    Exactly why Trump was elected.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  141. Biden repeatedly claims that a “public option” on health care does not undermine insurance companies nor burden the government with losses. Both are untrue. Also, there is no inkling there about what the real problem with Obamacare is: it puts the self-employed (and only them) into the national sacrifice pool.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  142. If every COVID death belongs to Trump, even the ones that Cuomo killed, then every COVID death belongs to Biden after he is elected.

    They’ll still belong to Trump. Trust me on this.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  143. Trump: I am the least racist person in the room!

    That and his ‘Oh it’s Russia russia russia!!!! nobody will buy that!’ was such a badly told lie I think it probably convinced people it totally is Russia.

    Both these guys are fading fast!

    Trump completely missed the Abe Lincoln joke (that I laughed at) but Biden did a bad job explaining it.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  144. Thank you for the play-by-play, comrades.

    nk (1d9030)

  145. Exactly why Trump was elected.

    God, you are so tiresome on this. Trump could plagiarize Mother Teresa and get away with it because he is immune to such complaints.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  146. The list of Biden’s racist comments are as long as the menu in an Indian’s 7-11, eh Joe?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  147. The Poor Boys?

    frosty (f27e97)

  148. Point Trump; he never said he was Abe Lincoln, Joe.

    All talk w/these politicians…” – home run, Trump.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  149. Trump: I am the least racist person in the room!

    As I said, Trump is a terrible liar. You would think he’d get better with practice, but I guess he just fires anyone who points it out.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  150. Biden, otoh, is an A-1 class bullsh1tter.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  151. Moderator: Race? Police?

    Biden: (Biden has clearly worked hard on this question and he already kind of answered it at the townhall, so this is not a hard one for him.) Talks about daughter for a change. I have sympathy for black parents. Institutional racism. We need to work harder on that and everyone being treated equally. Inclusion. Trump sucks. List of stuff to do better. I have a plan.

    Trump: Biden sucks. 94 crime bill. Super predators. I am the best for the black community except maybe Lincoln, but not really, it’s me. Obama/Biden sucked on the race issue. Liberals were crying in my office (dear God). Opportunity zones, Tim Scott. Historical black colleges love me. I love them too.

    Biden: I didn’t say superpredators. In 2000 Trump wanted to make the crime bill tougher. He said maurading gangs, central part 5. We commuted more sentances than he did. Also, it was Obama’s law you are bragging about. No minimum mandatories. Drug courts. Rehab.

    Trump: But why didn’t you already do it? It’s your fault I’m president.

    Biden: Talking to us again. You know I’m a good guy and Trump isn’t.

    Trump: My dirt on you is real and so you are worse than me.

    Moderator: Get it together.

    Biden: Trump is just spewing Russian crap again.

    Trump: Laptop?! Stop talking about Russia. pft.

    Moderator: Racism?

    Trump: BLM calls police pigs and that was the first I ever heard of them (no it wasn’t). I am the least racist person in this room (moderator appears to be a POC.)

    Biden: Calls Trump “Abraham Lincoln” sarcastically (I don’t think this is a good look for him). Trump is super racist.

    Bickering.

    Trump: I am the best for black people. You suck.

    Moderator: Crime Bill?

    Biden: It was popular, but it was a mistake. I’ve changed my mind and here’s what I want to do about drug users. Treatment.

    Trump: Why didn’t he already do it?

    Biden: Here at the things we did. I want to do more.

    Trump: But why didn’t he already do it. Biden sucks for POC.

    Biden: Republican congress.

    Nic (896fdf)

  152. Biden gives typical politician’s excuse for not getting things done – ‘we had a Republican Congress;’ Trump says,’ you gotta talk them into it Joe.’

    Trump nails Biden.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  153. I’m the least racist in the room was an unforced error. He could have easily said he’s the least racist of the two of them.

    frosty (f27e97)

  154. Morality is a transient, Joe.

    Ask your Pope.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  155. Are you against fracking tonight, Joe?

    Or for it. LOL

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  156. Popes are transient.

    nk (1d9030)

  157. Hardly ad hominum. I’m attacking your sources, not you.

    I didn’t say you were going ad hom on me, Kevin. You’re attacking the WA Post because they’re the WA Post, not for their actual content, so here’s a chance for you: Just picking their latest, what did they get wrong?

    Paul Montagu (c8ec6a)

  158. I wonder if these green jobs are shovel ready

    frosty (f27e97)

  159. Nobody will care about any fact checks. Biden baldly and directly lied and it is provable. “Superpredator?” He said it.

    If the polls are correct, Biden maintains his lead. If a 2016 is brewing, DJT will get a real boost. What is the disposition of the persuadables? That decides it.

    Moderator was atrocious.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  160. Trump is right about the New Green Deal. It’s right headed but far too extreme.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  161. Not watching, but I would like to remind everyone that Abraham Lincoln did not allow black people to play golf at his country clubs, just for context.

    nk (1d9030)

  162. “Biden baldly and directly lied and it is provable. “Superpredator?” He said it.”

    Prove it then.

    Davethulhu (6d3b4b)

  163. Slow Joe is too stupid and corrupt to understand all that green energy ain’t that green.

    https://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/solar/solar-energy-isnt-always-as-green-as-you-think

    Seems like the only green Biden understands is the greenback.

    Hoi Polloi (92d467)

  164. Joe will get away with even this last whopper denying he ever opposed fracking.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  165. Holy crap, Biden blatantly lying about fracking.

    He’s lying! Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh fracking on ‘Federal land’- so you DID say it.

    Unreal.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  166. Oh, no, Biden checked his watch.

    Paul Montagu (c8ec6a)

  167. Now he grew up in Delaware???

    What about Scranton????

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  168. @166. Time for his meds. Abe Lincoln is giving them to him.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  169. Biden collapsing in this last 10 minutes. This is Ford insisting Poland is not dominated by the USSR.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  170. Biden is not talking like he thinks Texas is in play.

    Oh and Trump had the same thought I did! I need a shower now.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  171. Moderator: Climate change? (Biden is going to talk about green jobs, I bet)

    Trump: Plant trees. Environment pretty. We have low carbon emissions. Joe too stupid to understand. China and Russian and India are icky. Paris accord, out because people mean to us. Other people had expectations that were lower for them.

    Biden: It’s a big problem. I have a great plan that labor and enviros both agree on. Charging stations. Retrofitting. Jobs. (yet, I was right). Wall street likes my plan too. Jobs. Economic growth.

    Trump: Biden’s plan sucks. AOC developed Biden’s plan. AOC runs the Dems. Biden wants to give you slower windows. (??). Biden lying about cost. Tiny windows (??)

    Biden: Trump is just making sh!t up now. Plus everyone loves my plan. Jobs. Trump is an idiot who thinks wind power causes cancer.

    Trump: Energy independent. I know more about wind. It costs a lot and kills birds and causes fumes. Natural gas. We will have the greatest economy. Fracking again.

    Biden: I didn’t oppose fracking. I won’t ban it. Trump is a liar. Zero emissions. Carbon capture. Transition to renewables.

    Trump: Biden is pandering on fracking.

    Biden: nuh uh.

    Moderator: POC near plants getting sick?

    Trump: But they are making money (this is a bad argument). Er. I haven’t heard about sick people near industry. I saved the oil industry.

    Biden: Trump is too dumb to get it. People who live in those areas have a hard time. We need to keep them safe. Money not making up for health. Transition from oil industry over time.

    Trump: Ohhh hoooo!

    Biden: No more subsidies to oil.

    Trump: Biden will destroy the oil industry.

    Biden: Trump is anti-context. Net Zero emissions.

    Trump: But China pollutes!!

    Nic (896fdf)

  172. ROFLMAO Bien’s gonna make China abide by China Accords.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  173. ^Paris

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  174. Oh, no, Biden checked his watch.

    Paul Montagu (c8ec6a) — 10/22/2020 @ 7:32 pm

    LOL

    Yeah he looked great at the beginning, and he is rambling now. And he knows it. They should put his meds in a tooth like James Bond, only it’s uppers. You know these guys aren’t rocking all original teeth.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  175. What a stupid question she has asked.

    The question to ask was: why do you want to be President?

    It torpedoed Ted Kennedy.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  176. Moderator: Leadership?

    Trump: I’ve made all the jobs. Minorities love my jobs. Dems were super in love with me. I’ll cut taxes and regulations. Biden will make a depression. Your 401ks will go to hell.

    Biden: I will be President for all Americans. Hope over Fear. Move forward and grow economy. green jobs. This country has better character than Trump.

    Biden answered this question much better.

    Nic (896fdf)

  177. @174. He was slurring his words. ‘Sh!tties” was priceless.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  178. Biden answered this question much better.

    “No miracle is coming.” – Joe Biden

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  179. I don’t know who won. Probably means Trump won.

    Moderator was pretty unfair.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  180. Biden wants tiny, small windows. Trump wants more water pressure so you don’t have to flush 15 times.

    Paul Montagu (c8ec6a)

  181. Moderator was pretty unfair.

    How so?

    Dave (1bb933)

  182. Chris Wallace crediting Biden for specificity, which is diametrically opposed to what the folks with Luntz saw. It’s a subtle cover for all the lies – which were actually specific.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  183. Welker did a stellar job, but I think it was partly due to Trump not attacking her. She kept it on track. Her voice was able to pierce through.

    Paul Montagu (c8ec6a)

  184. These guys both suck so much. Biden really sucks. He was pretty liberal at points, on things like criminal justice and energy.

    It would be something if both candidates could just admit the COVID thing was awful, there was no way to keep it from being pretty bad, and of course mistakes happen even with high stakes, but we gotta keep doing our best. Instead, they both want to say they are awesome and the other guy is going to kill everyone.

    Biden had some great memorized quips, I think the Ave Lincoln one was rehearsed and well delivered, but he fumbled Trump’s confused wooosh moment and several other points.

    Trump is an arrogant goof and he sure loves bashing his opponents family, but he also let Biden talk, which paid off a few times.

    This debate format was superior, at least with President Camacho types.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  185. To sum up:

    Trump looked much better in this debate. His physical appearance still wasn’t great. They use way too dark a tanner or foundation or whatever and he looked stressed or pained the whole times, but he looked a lot better in process.

    Trump looked very much himself, but on the better half of the himself field. He might have moved some undecideds to him.

    Biden also looked very much himself probably about midfield on the himself field. He looked very on top of things and didn’t seem super stressed over most of the debate although clearly not happy about the Hunter shots. His answers were pretty good.

    Trump gave very few good answers but took a few good shots that probably hit home with the audience. Biden gave good answers, fielded the shots OK, didn’t take very many good shots at Trump, but the ones he landed really bothered Trump. I think Biden might’ve moved a few undecides toward him on the content.

    Trump was really bothered by things outside the debate purview and very reactive about those in kind of a weird way.

    I think it was probably about a tie, depending on what you were looking for. Trump needed a big win and I don’t think he got it.

    Nic (896fdf)

  186. Hume calls it a draw. No mention of all the unreal lies Biden spewed. Wow.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  187. This won’t change anything.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  188. How so?

    Dave (1bb933) — 10/22/2020 @ 7:40 pm

    there were several points where Trump was scoring a pretty good point, even though some of these I knew were BS, and she would predictably get in his way. Also, when Trump asked who built the cages, it was a perfect opportunity to just settle this issue, and she instead changed the subject.

    I think she was too obvious in framing things.

    Don’t get me wrong, if I were moderating I’d be even harder on Trump, but I’m not a good choice for moderating things.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  189. This doesn’t include the words super predator but does include predator beyond the pale. I’m sure it will be used to say Trump was lying but if you listen to the whole thing it might be worse.

    frosty (f27e97)

  190. PA is a linchpin battleground state for Biden, and I don’t believe his focus on clean energy is going to help him there.

    Paul Montagu (c8ec6a)

  191. Trump needed a big win and I don’t think he got it.

    Trump not being the assh0le who showed up last time was a big win.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  192. Biden’s lies will be pulled apart by the cablers.

    The list of Biden’s racist comments alone are just stunning.

    We had a good relationship with Hitler per Biden was simply gobsmacking.

    ‘That’s not true’ was all he could say an he was nailed on fracking–even by HIMSELF in the same debate.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  193. Of course, Biden is till going to win in a landslide. It’s a pity they can’t both lose.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  194. They need to find some circa-1993/94 Biden DNA and grow some big-city mayors with it.

    urbanleftbehind (7d9d99)

  195. I never said it– except I did on Federal lands.

    Crazy Joe. Going after Big Oil was just stupid, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  196. It torpedoed Ted Kennedy.

    Well, MJK “torpedoed” Ted Kennedy, but yeah, his answer was pretty terrible. Summed up as “Because the sea is so deep and the sky is so blue.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  197. Trump not being the assh0le who showed up last time was a big win.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/22/2020 @ 7:47 pm

    I think he did so much better than the standard he set in the one he destroyed like a maniac and the one he punked out of. If that’s how it works, a Trump voter’s perception of this debate will be enthusiasm. That’s a win.

    I don’t see how Biden gained anything tonight. He made a tactically poor decision at one point to say he disagreed with his primary opponents, when he needs to be the blank slate that Trump stupidly let him be (blaming him for Bernie’s ideas, for example). He had some great canned lines, and Trump had a couple of bad comments, but no one will care. Standards are too low.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  198. Going after Big Oil was just stupid, too.

    Here in New Mexico, where natural gas is free and the state gets about 1/3rd of its revenue from oil and gas fees and many are employed in the oil fields, the Democrats are running against fossil fuels

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  199. Prediction stands: Trump squeaks out a win by 3 points or it’s President Harris within 24 months.

    bide turns 78 years old in just 29 days.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  200. ^Biden

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  201. Going after Big Oil was just stupid, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/22/2020 @ 7:49 pm

    For sure. But it’s good to say it. Maybe it would be better if we had dumber politicians who just blurt out what they think so we can decide if our loved one keeping his job is worth the long term environment’s health. If Biden wins after talking about no drug incarcerations and eff the energy industry, then he gets a bit more mandate than if he just ran as ‘I’m not Trump’.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  202. I don’t understand the attack that Biden didn’t do anything on healthcare when he was in office.

    Love it or hate it, WTF was the ACA?

    Dave (1bb933)

  203. I didn’t see a clear winner tonite.
    Biden muddled, as I expected, which means he didn’t win. Trump behaved much better than expected, which means he didn’t lose.
    If anyone “won” the debate, it was Obama last night because he made the best case against Trump while making a mild case for Biden.

    Paul Montagu (d73c00)

  204. This one is a Trump win, and had he been doing this in debate #1, this would have been the clincher. He clearly held back on Welker and was content to let Biden step on verbal rakes. The not-Biden rapper train got another fare today as well.

    urbanleftbehind (7d9d99)

  205. I think they darkened Trump’s spray tan to a browner tone so he wouldn’t be called the Great Pumpkin so close to Halloween.

    Paul Montagu (c8ec6a)

  206. They didn’t try to fix its problems. And it has problems, particularly for those who DON’T get subsidies and who pay through the nose. The prices keep going up, the subsidies go up to match, dollar-for-dollar, but the income cap for subsidies is fixed irrespective of age or policy cost.

    It’s a welfare trap that can get into 5 figures.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  207. Well, Kevin, it passed in 2010, and then the GOP took the house running against it, and it became impossible to make constructive changes to it for the next six years.

    Dave (1bb933)

  208. Moderator interrupted DJT 24-28 times, Biden twice. She did not have the excuse of an overbearing DJT.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  209. Trump thrives on Femdom, if they’re his type.

    nk (1d9030)

  210. “ Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden claimed falsely on Thursday night that not one American lost their private health insurance from the Affordable Care Act (ACA), known as Obamacare.

    Biden repeated what the left-leaning fact-checker PolitiFact rated its 2013 “Lie of the Year” on a stage in Nashville during the second and final presidential debate of the 2020 campaign.”

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/biden-repeats-version-of-politifacts-lie-of-the-year-if-you-like-your-plan-you-can-keep-your-plan
    _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  211. Trump did much better this time, and Biden did a little worse. His speaking directly into the camera thing didn’t work as well, and he wasn’t as sure footed. As a Biden voter the relaxed and restrained Trump makes me nervous.

    JRH (52aed3)

  212. Biden’s worst moments were on fracking, his quest for zero emissions by X date, his stumble on Obamacare (about people being able to keep their plans/doctors after it passed), he didn’t push back hard enough on Trump’s lie that 180 million Americans would lose their healthcare if Biden was elected. He wasn’t that great on immigration either because I don’t believe most Americans want 11 million illegals to be put on a path toward citizenship.

    Paul Montagu (c8ec6a)

  213. Rick Santorum is a silly person, but not as silly as most Trump defenders. (I’m watching the CNN debrief)

    Nic (896fdf)


  214. Chris Cillizza
    @CillizzaCNN

    Who won the debate? [Poll]

    Donald Trump. 73.2%

    Joe Biden. 22.3%

    The Wind 4.5%

    https://twitter.com/CillizzaCNN/status/1319467889003474944?s=20
    _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  215. Heh!

    Chris Cillizza
    @CillizzaCNN

    Who clicks on Chris Cilizza polls? [Poll]

    Donald Trump supporters. 17.7%

    Joe Biden supporters. 22.3%

    Russian bots. 60.00%

    nk (1d9030)

  216. The CNN panel of undecided NC voters very definitely thinks Biden won (9 said Biden, 2 said tie, 0 said Trump). Based on their commentary earlier, it seems to be mostly based on Biden talking about being President of all Americans vs Trump looking divisive.

    Nic (896fdf)

  217. CNN poll of debate watchers (evenly spread between D, R, I):

    53% Biden wins.
    very little change on favorability for either.

    Nic (896fdf)

  218. noR luaP’s supporters were notorious for flooding the online and phone-in polls and jamming blog comment threads with sockpuppets.

    nk (1d9030)

  219. The CNN panel of undecided NC voters very definitely thinks Biden won

    Confidential to Nic: none of them are undecided.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  220. @219 If you want to think they are all liars, that’s fine, it’s your life and that’s certainly… a theory.

    Nic (896fdf)

  221. @220 When it comes to lies we should really defer to the peerless expertise of Donald Trump’s superfans

    Dave (1bb933)

  222. What’s your guy Scully doing these days, Dave?

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  223. Luntz Group question, “If you HAD to vote tonight, based on the debate that just ended, who would get your vote? There were at least three obviously Dem-leading panelists of the 7 who responded. The result? Trump got ALL SEVEN VOTES.

    Basically, they do not trust Biden’s wishy-washy answers and his age. Trump is a known entity and has done some good things.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  224. CNN: Biden 53, Trump 39
    Data Progress: Biden 52, Trump 41
    US Politics: Biden 52, Trump 39

    The CNN sample was 52-40 before the debate, so Biden got a +1. Don’t know about the others.

    If it wasn’t an outright tie, looks like it was too close to matter.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  225. 224. (Needless to say, unlike harkin’s internet lol-poll, those are real.)

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  226. Yeah, the title is clickbait, but firehose versus garden hose.

    Paul Montagu (c8ec6a)

  227. they do not trust Biden’s wishy-washy answers and his age.

    Practiced lies delivered with brazen confidence are a much easier sell.

    Dave (1bb933)

  228. @201. For sure. But it’s good to say it.

    Not if you want to win Pennsylvania, Texas, Oklahoma or any number of petroleum and energy producing regions and states. Given his multiple flip-flops on fracking on top of this, he may have just handed Pennsylvania to Trump.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  229. @@223. Basically, they do not trust Biden’s wishy-washy answers and his age. Trump is a known entity and has done some good things.

    That’s probably what it will come down to mostly across the country– which has litte to do w/t actual issues. And holds w/my prediction of a Trump squeaker win or a President Harris in 24 months. The known commodity and age thing. Biden will turn 78 in 29 days.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  230. @145. But it is why he was elected, Kevin; he wasn’t a career politician; 63 million Americans voted for him.

    They all haven’t just evaporated and swooned over Plagiarist JoeyBee.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  231. Given his multiple flip-flops on fracking

    Did he really flip flop. He said he doesn’t want to ban it. He wants to phase it out and he’s never asked about a timeframe, which I’m guessing would be whatever gets him the most votes.

    Either way, Joe is saying it’s just a matter of time.

    frosty (f27e97)

  232. Another “WTF is Trump talking about” moment came when held California as an example Democratic malfeasance on COVID-19.

    Back in the real world, California deserves praise as one of the success stories, in terms of controlling the virus. Apart from a couple small upticks during the summer, which the authorities dealt with quite effectively through targeted restrictions in the worst hit areas, we have avoided mass mortality.

    Right now the rate of new cases here is about half the national average, and has been for months, and 10-12 times lower than death-cult enclaves like North and South Dakota.

    Frankly, for keeping infection and death rates low for one freaking eighth of the whole country you’d think we might deserve a little gratitude and respect.

    Dave (1bb933)

  233. Dave, I think Ms. Chao has some serious questions to answer. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors in Mitch’s cocaine den.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  234. @231. Yep. Like a fish flopping on a bot deck. He literally did it in the debate, too — no, yes… ‘Federal lands’…. he’s all over the ‘fracking’ lot. Doubt his answer[s] went well in PA, OK, TX or any other energy producing state/region.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  235. @234

    Or else he forgot the safe-word during a “fantasy role-play scenario” with Nancy?

    Dave (1bb933)

  236. “Palomino!”
    Ms. Wiig was brilliant.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  237. “We had a good relationship with Hitler before he invaded Europe– err, the rest of Europe.” — Joe Biden 10-22-20

    O.M.G.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  238. 169.Biden collapsing in this last 10 minutes. This is Ford insisting Poland is not dominated by the USSR.

    See #238. Thought t/same thing when he mentioned Der Fuehrer.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  239. Biden pushed me away by using the phrases “systemic racism” and “institutional racism”, which reminded me of “put y’all back in chains”. He is so misguided, and his rhetoric is just as divisive and flame-fanning as anything Trump has said.

    Biden also said health care is a right, and not a privilege. Guess what, Joe? Person A doesn’t have a claim on Person B’s wallet because Person A gets sick.

    (Those who propose robbing Peter to pay Paul will always have the support of Paul.)

    You can tell every time Biden is about to go into pander mode; he looks straight at the camera.

    I’m not buying it, Joe, and you shouldn’t be selling it.

    norcal (a5428a)

  240. The math on Biden’s 200k more deaths this year will be a hard target. That would require ~2800 per day every day for the rest of the year and that seems unlikely.

    frosty (f27e97)

  241. This is Ford insisting Poland is not dominated by the USSR.

    He actually said “Eastern Europe” and he later explained he meant ideologically, and that left to their own devices Eastern Europeans would choose another path. Which they did 15 years later. But then, compared to Biden (not to mention Trump), Ford was a deep thinker.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  242. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors in Mitch’s cocaine den.

    It does look like he beat the crap out of someone. Or maybe the new heavy bag in his home gym, with Trump’s image on it, got some tough love.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  243. Thombocytopenia? Chloroquine will do that. 😉

    But so will aspirin, and much more quickly.

    nk (1d9030)

  244. Right now the rate of new cases here is about half the national average, and has been for months, and 10-12 times lower than death-cult enclaves like North and South Dakota.

    CA is right now at 43.1 deaths/100K, almost identical to my home state of NM (43.5). North Dakota is noticibly higher (63/100K) but less than the US average of 67, and pretty much in line on projections with the US at large. South Dakota is lower than CA at 40/100K deaths.

    To assert that the needs of dense urban populations and sparse areas are the same, and should be handled by the same methods is not only absurd but an indication why state sovereignty is so important.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  245. Current projections are that the US will have about 100K more deaths by the end of the year. Universal masks would save about a quarter of that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  246. “We had a good relationship with Hitler before he invaded Europe– err, the rest of Europe.” — Joe Biden 10-22-20

    FDR had a better relationship with Stalin.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  247. @242 Kevin M – I was working with several Polish folks and listening to the debate on radio. They thought Ford had lost his ever loving mind. He said, “Poland.” Carter won their vote that night. I’ll never forget it.

    I pointed out to them that Ford was making a point about the human capacity to overcome evil and he was complimenting them. They refused to accept my explanation. Nor did the vast majority of Americans.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  248. Biden gives typical politician’s excuse for not getting things done – ‘we had a Republican Congress

    To both candidates, I reply: “Reagan changed everything, with an opposition House all 8 years.” And neither of you is Ronald Reagan.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  249. or it’s President Harris within 24 months.

    Only if Biden dies. It would be incredibly stupid of Harris to limit herself to one additional term like that, and Harris is hardly stupid.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  250. As for Biden being elected … Reagan could not have beat Jimmy Carter in 1976; Watergate was too fresh and Reagan was FAR more conservative than Ford. It took 4 years of Jimmy Carter for the voters to be willing to opt for someone as forthright as Reagan.

    I have hopes that the Democrats will overreach and the GOP will field a strong candidate who can co-opt the saner part of the Trump base while unifying the rest of the party.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  251. 243, well why not? Its already happening in the non-corporal sense:

    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/522185-gop-power-shift-emerges-with-trump-mcconnell

    urbanleftbehind (9248e1)

  252. I didn’t realize so many people don’t know that coyote is a term for people smuggle other people into the country. And those people vote.

    frosty (f27e97)

  253. Biden also said health care is a right, and not a privilege. Guess what, Joe? Person A doesn’t have a claim on Person B’s wallet because Person A gets sick.

    But Trump promises an even more generous and awesome government health plan!

    Dave (1bb933)

  254. nk @3.

    If I were either the President of the United States or the other party’s candidate for the Presidency, and some media dipwiddles told me that they would be muting our microphones in their media event labeled a debate,

    They were only muting the microphones where the rules called for only one candidate to speak, and that was the first two minutes for each candidate after getting pitched the question. Both campaigns had agreed to that, but it was honored more in the breach. They had periods when both could speak.

    But it made for a much duller debate.

    Trump was able to ask for and get some time for an unscheduled response, and Biden used some time to respond to something previously said by Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  255. I didn’t realize so many people don’t know that coyote is a term for people smuggle other people into the country. And those people vote.

    Do they. I have a simple test, which wouldn’t take that much money to execute.

    Imperial County, California, is a small agricultural county between San Diego County and the Arizona border, and having a long border with Mexico. An ideal place for bringing in workers for agriculture. It has 60,000 registered voters in a population of about 180,000. The county is heavily Democrat.

    Audit the voter rolls for citizenship and audit the most recent general election for voters. If there is anything to this theory, it will show up here. If hundreds of registered voters are non-citizens, it would validate Trump’s argument. IF it’s none, or 1 or 2, then not.

    But people would rather talk. I suggested this to Carl DeMaio but he seems more interested in raising huge funds to audit the entire state, which will never happen.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  256. But Trump promises an even more generous and awesome government health plan!

    Yes, but we know Trump is lying about making that happen. Biden is only lying about obligations and costs. Which is worse if you don’t want it to happen?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  257. Kevin, people have been looking for a case like that for years and coming up dry. The biggest system issue seems to be people that move and don’t update their voting records in a timely manner.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  258. CA is right now at 43.1 deaths/100K, almost identical to my home state of NM (43.5). North Dakota is noticibly higher (63/100K) but less than the US average of 67, and pretty much in line on projections with the US at large. South Dakota is lower than CA at 40/100K deaths.

    You’re talking about history. Trump (and I) are talking about how things are NOW:

    Daily new cases (current 7-day average) per 100K:

    US: 19 (within rounding error of the record)
    ND: 103 (record high)
    SD: 83 (record high)
    NM: 30 (record high)
    CA: 8

    California’s *record high* of 25/100K, back in July, is lower than your state’s current rate three months later, and that of 21 other states.

    So with all due respect, <insert anatomically impossible act here>.

    Dave (1bb933)

  259. “New cases” can be misleading as it also measures testing. Also, where are these new cases? In the “cities” or in rural areas, or on the Reservations? In NM, it’s the last two mostly.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  260. Some states may also have made the decision to accept somewhat higher infection rates than others, and some have decided to accept greater economic damage than others. Shall we talk about state deficits on a per capita basis, too? As I under stand it, CA is out about $80-$100 billion over this in tax revenue/expenditures alone (and much much more damage to private individuals and businesses).

    What IS it about some people that they only count one thing to the exclusion of all others?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  261. “New cases” can be misleading as it also measures testing.

    Positivity rates (7-day average):

    US: 5.7%
    ND: 10.8%
    SD: 35.2%(!)
    CA: 2.7%

    We > You.

    Dave (1bb933)

  262. It should be beneath the dignity of a President or Presidential candidates, Sammy. It’s an insult, actually. Demeaning.

    Say what you want about Obama, he never let the media control him. He controlled them. This orange buffoon throws tantrums, blow spit bubbles, and calls them #FakeNews, while he’s dancing to their tune and passing around their rating and advertising revenue tin cup.

    nk (1d9030)

  263. David Hogg
    @davidhogg111
    ·
    Imagine calling the immigrant parents that bring their children to the United States for a better life “Coyotes”

    The level of xenophobia is sickening.
    __ _

    Stephen L. Miller
    @redsteeze

    Harvard.
    __ _

    Exasperated
    @Numberopinion
    ·
    He’s not the only one. Twitter was awash with blue checkmarks last night tweeting the same insane stupidity.

    Kevin
    @kwjones001
    ·
    Imagine calling coyotes paid to bring kids to the US “Parents”.
    __ _

    Dar’shun Kendrick
    @DarshunKendrick

    Did @realDonaldTrump just say 545 kids they can’t find their parents for came over through “cartels and coyotes”?! How the hell does a coyote bring a whole human across the border?! Lord—–stop talking. #FinalDebate

    __ _

    “Dar’shun Kendrick
    @DarshunKendrick

    Corporate Attorney & Investment Advisor. GA State Representative- Chief Deputy Whip of
    @gahousedems”

    _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  264. Say what you want about Obama, he never let the media control him. He controlled them.

    It comes with having a halo.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  265. Stahl says she and 60 Minutes felt “disrespected” by the Prez and VP.

    Shows you where they place themselves.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  266. Imagine having to watch a Trump commercial instead of the news (or a debate) to hear the truth about Biden’s words on fossil fuels and fracking…

    Surreal ain’t it?
    _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  267. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/23/2020 @ 9:19 am

    My comment could have been clearer.

    And those people, who don’t know what a coyote is and think this is a reference to a literal canis latrans, vote.

    frosty (f27e97)

  268. 11. Dave (1bb933) — 10/22/2020 @ 5:21 pm

    t seems clear Trump will go after Biden’s family;

    Trump kept mixing up, or entangling, Biden with Biden;s family and then he would specify family – Biden knew the whole story and issued a carefully worded denial:

    have not taken a penny from any foreign source ever in my life.

    I but members of my family did.

    taken

    I wanted to take, but the deal fell apart.

    any foreign source

    But businesses incorporated in the United States that made money from foreign sources, maybe. Or from family members who did.

    in my life

    This is to include the period of time after he left office. In other words, the denial covers the deal mentioned in an email or text on the Hunter Biden laptop with him having a 10% share. He can say that, so he does.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  269. Child separation for every family, across the board, “zero tolerance”, was Jeff Sessions’ bright-boy idea and entirely different from the Obama-era “exigent circumstances or parent-child relationship doubtful (i.e coyote)” policy.

    I like the karma. Sessions gone, Trump hopefully soon gone, kids still here.

    nk (1d9030)

  270. 15. Ed from SFV (f64387) — 10/22/2020 @ 5:42 pm

    If the FBI had subpoenaed the laptop, why did they refuse to accept it when it was offered? Why wasn’t it made available internally at the FBI to the folks who were after it?

    ???

    They took the broken laptop (which cold not boot) and the external hard drive that Hunter Biden had supplied to the computer repairman to put his recovered files on, before he got married in a hurry and moved to California.

    The repairman still had copies of the files on his store’s computer. He kept them I guess, for one thing in case Hunter couldn’t read his drive, and then, likely, because of inertia. After 90 days, the drive was legally abandoned. Sometime around August 2919, he heard the name Burisma and searched from it. As the impeachment inquiry heated up he didn’t want this hot potato and arranged through a friend or acquaintance who lived in another city for an FBI office outside of Delaware, to be contacted.

    He did not keep the security video of Hunter coming into his store with 3 drives. He maintained about two months worth of that before it got overwritten, and in any case it probably never occurred to him to save it..

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  271. kids still here

    All in your neighborhood, no doubt.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  272. Amelia
    @AmeliaHammy
    ·
    What’s the over/under on the dictionary definition of “coyote” changing today?
    __ _

    Noam Blum
    @neontaster
    ·
    Drug mules? LOL how are you supposed to sneak a mule by airport security??

    __

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  273. Possibly. The church up the street has services in Spanish as well as English, and runs a preschool and a K-6 grade school.

    nk (1d9030)

  274. Shall we talk about state deficits on a per capita basis, too?

    Difficult to interpret, since the pandemic will affect states differently depending on their economies, independent of any policy decisions. California has significant tourism and entertainment (bigly) industries, and these have been hit hard. It also operates the world’s premier higher education system, which is another major victim of COVID. Unemployment benefits will also be a larger burden on a state with higher incomes.

    As I under stand it, CA is out about $80-$100 billion over this in tax revenue/expenditures alone (and much much more damage to private individuals and businesses).

    I wasn’t able to find recent projections. An NPR article in August (part of a series covering almost every state – except NM and WY where data was missing) said a $54B deficit was projected; the article suggests this was assuming no federal assistance.

    Suppose it’s as high as your high-end number, though. That’s about $2500 per capita.

    The federal per capita deficit this year is almost four times higher ($9500 per capita).

    The reason for the economic distress is the pandemic. You would think any sensible person would realize that controlling the pandemic is the key to recovery.

    If A causes B, and you don’t like B, then get rid of A.

    Example: If pounding on your head with a hammer gives you a headache, and you don’t like headaches, then stop pounding on your head with a hammer.

    See? As happyfeet might say, it’s obvious to anyone willing to do the analysis.

    Dave (1bb933)

  275. When a mob hitman is kinder to women and children than your President, you might want to pray for the soul of your nation.

    nk (1d9030)

  276. @15 @271 .

    Ed from SFV (f64387) — 10/22/2020 @ 5:42 pm
    If the FBI had subpoenaed the laptop, why did they refuse to accept it when it was offered? Why wasn’t it made available internally at the FBI to the folks who were after it?

    There’s a process to this.

    But, chain of custody is a “thing” and that’s the reason why the FBI agent immediately subpoenaed it.

    Then, the FBI would need to get a judge to signoff a warrant for a specific search. (just because the device is subpoenaed doesn’t mean the FBI can will nilly search for anything.)

    whembly (c30c83)

  277. @250. Either you haven’t been watching him, or listening to him or simply observing him– when he has the energy to stand up and appear in public for a hour. He’s applying for the most demanding job on the planet, Kevin.

    Put your politics aside and just observe his behavior.

    He’s old, frail, fearful of appearing in public for any long periods of time; increasingly brain-farts; has had two brain surgeries that we know of– [he still slurs his words- meds?!?!] displays bouts of emotional instability— and Biden turns 78 years old in just 28 days, Kevin.

    You wouldn’t want him driving your kids school bus; or piloting the 767 you were flying in and certainly not hire him to be the most powerful man on Earth. He missed his chance when he decided not to challenge Hillary for the nom.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  278. 242. Ford was talking about the Helsinki agreement. Ford had stated by saying that “His Holiness the Pope” (that’s Paul VI) had signed that agreement.

    He probably wanted to say (although he never gave that explanation) that the Soviet Union did not dominate Eastern Europe because of the Helsinki agreement i.e. that the Helsinki agreement, which Brezhnev wanted, merely said there should be no more order changes in Europe.

    Brezhnev wanted it so that te Societ Union could keep the part of Poland it had incorporated in September 1939, and which FDR had already agreed to at Yalta in February 1945. For some reason Brezhnev was all worried about that. That the incorporation of parts of Poland in the Ukraine and Byelorussia and a Russian military zone could be challenged and reversed some day.

    By the way, the Soviet Union had to pay a price for that. Due to lobbying, some human rights provisioss, which Brezhneve thought was just another case of meaningless rhetoric, were added to it. But Soviet dissidnent and refusnik Anatoly Scharansky made a big deal out of that – and that was the on;y part of the Helsinki agreement anybody paid attention to – and was arrested and charged with being an American spy. He was later exchanged in 1986.

    Anyway, in 197, Ford lost his train of thought and finished his sentence with that the Soviet Union did not dominate Eastern Europe and never would under the Ford Administration

    Debate panelist Max Frankel gave Gerald Ford a chance to take it back, but Ford doubled down:

    He thought of examples.

    There was Yugoslavia.

    There was Romania (with an independent foreign policy under Ceascescu)

    Things come in threes. Now he needed another one. He mentioned the third country Kissinger had jst visited: Poland.

    Which was a little bit independent of The Soviet Union.

    Next the ball was thrown into Jimmy carter’s court. He knew Poland was all wrong. But he also knew that there were many leftists Democrats who would deny the Soviet Union did bad things.

    So he mentioned Czechoslovakia, which everyone agreed had been invaded in 1968 and he mentioned Poland and he did not dispute it directly but said ask these people.

    https://www.debates.org/voter-education/debate-transcripts/october-6-1976-debate-transcript

    MS. FREDERICK: Mr. Frankel, a question for President Ford.

    MR. FRANKEL: Mr. President, I’d like to explore a little more deeply our relationship with the Russians. They used to brag back in Khrushchev’s day that because of their greater patience and because of our greed for – for business deals that they would sooner or later get the better of us. Is it possible that despite some setbacks in the Middle East, they’ve proved their point? Our allies in France and Italy are now flirting with Communism. We’ve recognized the permanent Communist regime in East Germany. We’ve virtually signed, in Helsinki, an agreement that the Russians have dominance in Eastern Europe. We’ve bailed out Soviet agriculture with our huge grain sales. We’ve given them large loans, access to our best technology and if the Senate hadn’t interfered with the Jackson Amendment, maybe we – you would’ve given them even larger loans. Is that what you call a two-way street of traffic in Europe?

    MR. FORD: I believe that we have uh – negotiated with the Soviet Union since I’ve been president from a position of strength. And let me cite several examples. Shortly after I became president in uh – December of 1974, I met with uh – General Secretary Brezhnev in Vladivostok and we agreed to a mutual cap on the ballistic missile launchers at a ceiling of twenty-four hundred – which means that the Soviet Union, if that becomes a permanent agreement, will have to make a reduction in their launchers that they now have or plan to have. I’ve negotiated at Vladivostok with uh – Mr. Brezhnev a limitation on the MIRVing of their ballistic missiles at a figure of thirteen-twenty, which is the first time that any president has achieved a cap either on launchers or on MIRVs. It seems to me that we can go from there to uh – the uh – grain sales. The grain sales have been a benefit to American agriculture. We have achieved a five and three quarter year uh – sale of a minimum six million metric tons, which means that they have already bought about four million metric tons this year and are bound to buy another two million metric tons to take the grain and corn and wheat that the American farmers have produced in order to uh – have full production. And these grain sales to the Soviet Union have helped us tremendously in meeting the costs of the additional oil and – the oil that we have bought from overseas. If we turn to Helsinki – I’m glad you raised it, Mr. uh – Frankel. In the case of Helsinki, thirty-five nations signed an agreement, including the secretary of state for the Vatican – I can’t under any circumstances believe that the – His Holiness, the Pope would agree by signing that agreement that the thirty-five nations have turned over to the Warsaw Pact nations the domination of the – Eastern Europe. It just isn’t true. And if Mr. Carter alleges that His Holiness by signing that has done it, he is totally inaccurate. Now, what has been accomplished by the Helsinki agreement? Number one, we have an agreement where they notify us and we notify them of any uh – military maneuvers that are to be be undertaken. They have done it. In both cases where they’ve done so, there is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe and there never will be under a Ford administration.

    MS. FREDERICK: Governor Carter?

    MR. FRANKEL: I’m sorry, I – could I just follow – did I understand you to say, sir, that the Russians are not using Eastern Europe as their own sphere of influence in occupying mo- most of the countries there and in – and making sure with their troops that it’s a – that it’s a Communist zone, whereas on our side of the line the Italians and the French are still flirting with the possibility of Communism?

    MR. FORD: I don’t believe, uh – Mr. Frankel that uh – the Yugoslavians consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union. I don’t believe that the Rumanians consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union. I don’t believe that the Poles consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union. Each of those countries is independent, autonomous: it has its own territorial integrity and the United States does not concede that those countries are under the domination of the Soviet Union. As a matter of fact, I visited Poland, Yugoslavia and Rumania to make certain that the people of those countries understood that the president of the United States and the people of the United are dedicated to their independence, their autonomy and their freedom.

    MS. FREDERICK: Governor Carter, may I have your response?

    MR. CARTER: (chuckle) Well, in the first place, I’m not criticizing His Holiness the Pope. I was talking about Mr. Ford. The uh – fact is that secrecy has surrounded the decisions made by the Ford administration. In the case of the Helsinki agreement – it may have been a good agreement at the beginning, but we have failed to enforce the so-called basket three part, which insures the right of people to migrate, to join their families, to be free, to speak out. The Soviet Union is still jamming Radio Free Europe – Radio – uh- uh – Radio Free Europe is being jammed. We’ve also seen a very serious uh – problem with the so-called Sonnenfeldt document, which apparently Mr. Ford has just endorsed, which said that there’s an organic linkage between the Eastern European countries and the Soviet Union. And I would like to see Mr. Ford convince the Polish-Americans and the Czech-Americans and the Hungarian-Americans in this country that those countries don’t live under the domination and supervision of the Soviet Union behind the Iron – uh – Curtain. We also have seen Mr. Ford exclude himself from access to the public. He hasn’t had a tough cross-examination-type press conference in over thirty days. One press conference he had without sound. He’s also shown a weakness in yielding to pressure. The Soviet Union, for instance, put pressure on Mr. Ford and he refused to see a symbol of human freedom recognized around the world, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. The Arabs have put pressure on Mr. Ford, and he’s yielded, and has permitted a boycott by the Arab countries of American businesses who trade with Israel, or who have American Jews owning or taking part in the management of American – companies. His own secretary of commerce had to be subpoenaed by the Congress to reveal the names of businesses who were subject to this boycott. They didn’t volunteer the information. He had to be subpoenaed. And the last thing I’d like to say is this: This grain deal with the Soviet Union in ’72 was terrible, and Mr. Ford made up for it with three embargoes, one against our own ally in Japan. That’s not the way to run our foreign policy, including international trade.

    MS. FREDERIC: Mr. Trewhitt, a question for Governor Carter.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  279. Nobody fact checked Kristin Welker on the current Supreme Court Obamacare case (and what she said was mostly Democratic Party propaganda, but less accurate.)

    Trump didn’t have his facts straught

    They have 180 million plans, 180 million people, families.

    Choice B is correct. People.

    And couldn’t explain what he;s doing with that court case, because it’s 1100% pandering to the far right.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  280. 84.

    Pillows and sheets (? IDEK?)

    He means that Obama – and in this narrative Obama = Biden — only sold nonlethal equipment to Ukraine while he (Trump)sold tank busters to Ukraine,

    There was much else that probably passed over the heads of many voters.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  281. 143. Dustin (4237e0) — 10/22/2020 @ 7:19 pm

    Trump completely missed the Abe Lincoln joke (that I laughed at) but Biden did a bad job explaining it.

    Biden insisted it was factual. He couldn’t say it was sarcastic, or, outside of amemorized line, he forgot what Donald Trump had actually said and didn’t remember even when Donald Trump reminded him.

    https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-joe-biden-final-presidential-debate-transcript-2020

    Donald Trump: (01:15)

    Yes, I do. And again, he’s been in government 47 years,

    [FALSE by the way, Itsl eiter 46 countin his time on the New Castle City Counccil or it’s 47 years on the federal government payroll, including three years drawing a pension. For some reason, the Republicans seem to be sticking to this wrong 47 year figure.]

    he never did a thing, except in 1994, when he did such harm to the black community, and they were called … and he called them superpredators.

    [Not blacks in general, and not even specifically blacks. And it wasn’t Biden who referred to superpredators, it was Hillary Clinton, a few years later and she linked it to gang membership. Joe Biden referred merely to predators. For Hillary Clinton later that was not enough to justify extremely long jail terms.]

    And he said that, he said it, superpredators. And they never lived that down. 1994, your crime bill, the superpredators. Nobody has done more for the black community than Donald Trump. And if you look, with the exception of Abraham Lincoln, possible exception, but the exception of Abraham Lincoln, nobody has done what I’ve done….

    Joe Biden: (08:30)

    Abraham Lincoln here is one of the most racist presidents we’ve had in modern history, he pours fuel on every single racist fire, every single one. Started off his campaign coming down the escalator saying he’s getting rid of those Mexican rapists, he’s ban Muslims because they’re Muslims, he has moved around and made everything worse across the board. He says to… About the Proud Boys, last time we were on stage here he said, “I tell them to stand down and stand ready.” Come on, this guy has a dog whistle about as big as a foghorn.

    Trump actually said ban Muslims until we figure out what;s going on. And stand by was clearly a slip. Meanwhile, Iran has been impersonating the Proud Boys]

    Kristen Welker: (09:04)

    President Trump, I’m going to give you 10 seconds to respond and then I have a follow-up question.

    Donald Trump: (09:07)

    No, he made a reference to Abraham Lincoln, where did that come in? I mean-

    Joe Biden: (09:10)

    You said you’re Abraham Lincoln.

    Donald Trump: (09:12)

    … where did that….. No.

    Joe Biden: (09:13)

    You said-

    Donald Trump: (09:14)

    I said, “Not since Abraham Lincoln has anybody done what I’ve done for the Black community.”

    Joe Biden: (09:19)

    And I’m saying-

    Donald Trump: (09:20)

    I didn’t say, “I’m Abraham Lincoln,” I said, “Not since Abraham Lincoln has anybody done what I’ve done for the Black community.” Now, you have done nothing other than the Crime Bill, which put-

    Joe Biden: (09:32)

    Oh, God.

    Donald Trump: (09:33)

    Tens of thousands of Black men, mostly, in jail.

    Joe Biden: (09:39)

    Not true.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  282. 159. Ed from SFV (f64387) — 10/22/2020 @ 7:27 pm

    Biden baldly and directly lied and it is provable. “Superpredator?” He said it.

    No, Hilary Clinton did. Biden said merely “predators”

    Both used it to refer to people who they said belonged in jail.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  283. onald Trump: (10:04)

    I can tell you from personal experience, I was in the hospital. I had it and I got better. And I will tell you that I had something that they gave me, a therapeutic, I guess they would call it. Some people could say it was a cure, but I was in for a short period of time. And I got better very fast or I wouldn’t be here tonight. And now they say I’m immune. Whether it’s four months or a lifetime, nobody’s been able to say that, but I’m immune.

    This could sound like it’s accurate, but it’s not. Four months is indeed correct for passive immunity from artificial antibodies but I don;t think he’s talking about that.

    The trouble is that the four moth claim has been used by people touting a vaccine who want to claim that even people who recovered don’t have immunity.

    They should have and a vaccine should not give stronger immunity. The antibodies disappear from the bloodstream after a few months, but in somebody whose body made the antibodies itself there is immune system memory. Unfortunately, there’s no test for that except a challenge test, so you can;t
    prove natural immunity after a few months. That’s why they rely on records for childhood immunization.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  284. Sammy Finkelman (a69e24) — 10/23/2020 @ 11:59 am

    No, Hilary Clinton did. Biden said merely “predators”

    Well, not merely. The longer quote is predators who were ‘beyond the pale’.

    During the same speech:

    “cadre of young people, tens of thousands of them, born out of wedlock, without parents, without supervision, without any structure, without any conscience developing because they literally … because they literally have not been socialized, they literally have not had an opportunity.” He said, “we should focus on them now” because “if we don’t, they will, or a portion of them, will become the predators 15 years from now.”

    frosty (f27e97)

  285. “New England Medical Journal” should be “New England Journal of Medicine”.

    Mistakes like that are associated with unfamiliarity, like getting Barack Obama’s name wrong would be.

    JB: We ought to be able to safely open, but they need resources to open

    This is an excuse.

    JB: You need to be in a position where you can take testing rapidly and know whether the person is in fact infected. You need to be able to trace.

    This kind of rapid test doesn’t exist and I think Biden has criticized the rapid test that Donald Trump uses. And he would criticize rapid approval of anything new. It’s not a question of being willing to appropriate $1 trillion.

    JB: Take a look at what New York has done in terms of turning the curve down, in terms of the number of people dying

    It just got R0 below 1.0. And there was some herd immunity. Maybe some social distancing.

    DT: Now, it was just ruled unconstitutional.

    Under the Michigan constitution. Because she exceded her authority and anything more needed approval from the sate legislature. With one thing (where the state court rules she couldn’t declare a 28 day emergency right after another) and judges found an excuse to limit the time she could use another authority.

    JB: what the President knew in January and didn’t tell the American people. He was told this was a serious virus that spread in the air, and it was much worse, much worse, than the flu.

    This whole thing is a misrepresentation. The danger from Covid was not a tightly held secret.

    DTL f you take a look at what we’ve done in terms of goggles and masks and gowns and everything else, and in particular ventilators we’re now making ventilators all over the world, thousands and thousands a month distributing them all over the world.

    Donald Trump doesn’t seem to understand that ventilator were used far too much and in the wrong way.

    Kristen Welker had to note that the therapeutic Trump took was Regeneron (antibodies)

    She didn’t stump him on one point:

    Kristen Welker: (13:22)
    Can you tell us which companies?

    Donald Trump: (13:23)

    Johnson & Johnson is doing very well. Moderna is doing very well. Pfizer is doing very well and we have numerous others. Then we also have others that we’re working on very closely with other countries, in particular Europe.

    Trump knows the companies. He doesn’t know the medical basis for it so well.

    What steps would you take to give Americans confidence in a vaccine if it were approved?

    Joe Biden: (14:26)

    Make sure it’s totally transparent. Have the scientists of the world see it, know it, look at it, go through all the processes….

    That kind of transparency goes with the territory.

    All that Joe Biden is saying is that he would slow things down. Not use it before he got foreign endorsements. The FDA is not slow enough for him.

    Of course that’s what the Dem position is before the election.

    JB: And there’s no prospect that there’s going to be a vaccine available for the majority of the American people before the middle of next year.

    If he’s president, maybe.

    But Trump has at least until January 20.

    JB: My response is he is xenophobic, but not because he shutdown access from China.

    This was never explained during the debate, and Trump didn’t ask.

    DT: Donald Trump: (18:58)

    Excuse me. I take full responsibility. It’s not my fault that it came here. It’s China’s fault. And you know what? It’s not Joe’s fault that it came here either. It’s China’s fault. They kept it from going into the rest of China for the most part, but they didn’t keep it from coming out to the world, including Europe and ourselves.

    The one thing that China did that was like that is that there was a point where they quarantined Wuhan from land travel but they didn’t quarantine Wuhan from international air travel. They also let travel proceed from the rest of China to foreign countries when it had already spread a little into the rest of China.

    Trump wasn’t kidding about the bleach. It was sincere, but stupid question.

    Joe Biden: (20:17) I talked about his xenophobia in a different context. It wasn’t about closing the border to Chinese coming to the United States.

    What was it??

    JB: The standard is, if you have a reproduction rate in a community that’s above a certain level, everybody says, “Slow up. More social distancing. Do not open bars and do not open gymnasiums. Do not open until you get this under control, under more control.” But when you do open, give the people the capacity to be able to open and have the capacity to do it safely.

    Not “safely” but with less danger.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  286. I don’t twit, but I noticed the host reacted to Trump’s assertion that only dumb people return to immigration court.
    Every Mexican I know agrees. They know exactly what Trump is talking about
    The only time you return to immigration court after being picked up is because its a simple paperwork problem. If you have no papers at all and go to court, you are really really really dumb. If the Mexicans I know hear of someone doing that, the response is either “tonto” or “menso”.
    The whole idea is to get in, disappear, get a fake ID and get to work. Maybe you get deported, but chances are low. Chances of deportation are 100% if you show up in court and there is no advantage to being deported from the courthouse rather than the street.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  287. “I don’t twit, but I noticed the host reacted to Trump’s assertion that only dumb people return to immigration court.
    Every Mexican I know agrees. They know exactly what Trump is talking about”

    Trump says most asylum seekers don’t show up for their court hearings. A new study says 99% do.

    Davethulhu (f52b3b)

  288. From Mr ‘thulhu’s link

    TRAC’s report doesn’t account for every migrant in immigration court: those who sought other kinds of relief from deportation or who didn’t apply for any relief at all aren’t included. The Department of Justice has also previously raised concerns about the accuracy of TRAC’s analysis, which relies on data obtained via the Freedom of Information Act, since the organization does not disclose its methodology.

    A spokesperson for the DOJ declined to comment.

    Data from the DOJ suggests that the rate at which migrants overall show up for their immigration court proceedings is lower than the rate TRAC cites. In 2018, the most recent year for which data is available, about 75 percent of migrants showed up for their court hearings in 2018 — similar to rates over the previous five years. The DOJ has also reported that the number of migrants and asylum seekers who fail to show up for their hearings is on the rise.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  289. So, not zero like Trump says, not 99% either. Now, that 25% who don’t show? What to do?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  290. Almost all of them appear for their first hearing… because they are in custody.
    The numbers drop off after that

    steveg (43b7a5)

  291. Lets say I get caught at the border trying to get back into the USA… never done it, so I don’t know the plea, but if they offered me own recognizance and agree to appear at a later date in order to get cut loose right now, I’d take it and blow off the second visit.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  292. When you see “migrants” discount everything else. If you want more smoke blown up your you-know-what from people who say “migrants”, ask if “migrants” includes only sneak-ins, or if it also includes overstays, visa renewals, adjustments of status, and revocations of people who entered legally.

    nk (1d9030)

  293. “So, not zero like Trump says, not 99% either. Now, that 25% who don’t show? What to do?”

    Migrants and asylum seekers are different categories.

    Davethulhu (f52b3b)

  294. I wasn’t able to find recent projections. An NPR article in August (part of a series covering almost every state – except NM and WY where data was missing) said a $54B deficit was projected; the article suggests this was assuming no federal assistance.

    They had been predicting a sizable surplus.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  295. They had been predicting a sizable surplus.

    $5-6B, according to the same article.

    Dave (1bb933)

  296. For perspective, Allahpundit cites some remarkable numbers from the Covid Tracking Project:

    To get a sense of the extent of the spread of COVID-19 in North Dakota, a comparison with San Francisco is instructive. There are more people in the city of San Francisco (883,000 people in 47 sq. miles) than in the state of North Dakota (762,000 people in 70,762 sq. miles). This week, more than 5,200 people in North Dakota tested positive for the coronavirus; San Francisco counted 213. Since the pandemic began, San Francisco has recorded just over 12,000 cases and 138 deaths; North Dakota has seen 34,165 cases and 323 deaths since March.

    So SanFran has almost 2000 times the population density of ND, but about 1/3 the number of cases and death per capita to date. Currently the new case rate per capita is 28 times lower in SF.

    Why should hard-working Californians, who pay 36% more, per capita, in federal taxes than North Dakotans, and 16 times more, per capita, than Donald Trump, not demand some responsibility and accountability here?

    Dave (1bb933)

  297. Trump says most asylum seekers don’t show up for their court hearings. A new study says 99% do.

    Bogus. Just games being played with semantics.

    https://cis.org/Arthur/Did-987-Percent-NonDetained-Asylum-Seekers-Really-Attend-All-Their-Asylum-Hearings

    in FY 2019, there were 10,542 in absentia removal orders in cases involving asylum applicants.

    the only way that 98.7 percent of all non-detained asylum seekers whose cases were decided had shown up for all of their hearings is if there were at least 810,923 asylum decisions issued in FY 2019. We know that is not correct, however, because again, according to EOIR, IJs only issued 92,905 asylum decisions in FY 2019.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  298. Dave:
    How large of a component are senior citizens of San Francisco proper’s population? I’m thinking it’s not a popular age-in-place location, though there are probably a good many pre-1978 homeowners further west and south of downtown taking advantage of the Prop. 13 cap and just renting every other room in their home.

    urbanleftbehind (0ef459)

  299. “Bogus. Just games being played with semantics.”

    You know what, I’ll go ahead and accept this guy’s numbers. 90% vs Trump’s 0%.

    Davethulhu (f52b3b)

  300. You know what, I’ll go ahead and accept this guy’s numbers. 90% vs Trump’s 0%.

    Not even close to what he said, but I can see you do have untapped potential as a WaPo fact checker.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  301. “Not even close to what he said, but I can see you do have untapped potential as a WaPo fact checker”

    That’s the number you get based on the excerpt you quoted.

    Davethulhu (f52b3b)

  302. “I can see you do have untapped potential as a WaPo fact checker.”

    This is pretty funny coming from the guy who thinks this whole exercise is paying for the wall.

    Davethulhu (f52b3b)

  303. No, Davethulhu. He’s saying the numbers don’t makes sense if the 99% is supposed to represent all asylum seekers, as opposed to the cleverly worded “asylum seekers whose cases were decided”. There were not over 800,000 asylum decisions, but there would have to be for the TRAC numbers to make sense, the way it’s being used by Vox and others.

    Why not just read the link.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  304. This is pretty funny coming from the guy who thinks this whole exercise is paying for the wall.

    You’re already 2 for 2 on misrepresenting what people say this morning. You’re definitely fact checker material.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  305. “You’re already 2 for 2 on misrepresenting what people say this morning. ”

    “Hellz ya, cuz Trump’s Remain in Mexico policy effectively does that, Davethulhu.”

    Davethulhu (11c55e)

  306. Why do you hate reading, Davethulhu?

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)


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