Patterico's Pontifications

10/21/2020

Civility in Action in Utah

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



I love this so much.

The kneejerk partisan response to this, from both sides, is “well, you can’t be civil because the other side is so bad!” (Prediction: there will be plenty of that in the comments to this thread, and all of the people saying it will be Trump supporters — or anti-anti-Trump types.) I also got this response when I retweeted it:

Scary!

That tweeter seems to have a really good handle on the essence of fascism: two people who disagree on politics but can personally get along. That was, coincidentally, the core of Mussolini’s philosophy. It’s history! You can read up on it!

David French has a new book out, which I just finished, about our divisions and how they could lead to the country coming apart politically. I owe you a real review of it, but for now suffice it to say that we could use more of the example of the Utah gubernatorial candidates and less Trumpism or radical leftism.

Before the Ahmari-French wars, I was excoriated for telling my daughter two presidential candidates were good men doing what they believed best for the country. How dare I! Didn’t I know one of them was trying to ruin the country? I spent another several months being raked over the coals for disagreeing with a talking head who wanted the president to “fail.” It took until 2016 for me to leave the Republican party, because it took until 2016 to establish that the group that opposed me had taken over the party, but I have opposed this “the other side is the enemy and must be crushed” mentality for as long as I can remember. It’s rare to see politicians rise above it. When they do, I say we should applaud them.

214 Responses to “Civility in Action in Utah”

  1. I approve this message.

    Dave (1bb933)

  2. As Utah goes, so goes the country.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  3. Patterico, that video made me teary. H8rs can H8 all they want. But I believe that the majority of our nation prefer what is behind that video. The problem, as always, is a minority of people who embrace hatred (on both sides) and cow others into silence.

    We all have a right to our own opinion, right? Not so much, except at the ballot box.

    I am reminded of this quote from Eric Hoffer:

    https://www.azquotes.com/quote/134203

    Thank you for posting this.

    Simon Jester (545ea7)

  4. Nice to see. Interesting it came from a red state and not a blue one. I always hear that conservatives are fascists and progressives have a big tent.

    Hoi Polloi (15cfac)

  5. It did not bring tears to my eyes, it brought a smile to my lips. Colored a little by a vision of two ladies who look a lot like Amy Barrett, off-screen, sipping lemonade while chatting with each other, and looking over at those two guys and saying “Play nice!”.

    nk (1d9030)

  6. Yes, it’s remarkable and inspiring to see Trump’s un-American demagogy repudiated by one of the most conservative states in the country.

    Dave (1bb933)

  7. The position taken by these gentlemen is the one that makes “checks and balances” a reality.

    John B Boddie (d795fd)

  8. This is awesome and I hope we see more of this.

    whembly (c30c83)

  9. There is our third party; the Utah Party.

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  10. nk, as always I appreciate your comments. My tears were those of happiness at seeing something I wanted to see so much from our political class.

    Simon Jester (545ea7)

  11. The Loyal Opposition is older than democracy, Achilles sulking in his tent notwithstanding (and you know what happened to him).

    nk (1d9030)

  12. The message is great. I kept expecting the catch, the qualifier, and they didn’t do that. Just a good message. We obviously need more and more of this.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  13. This is very nice. It also demonstrates that it is possible to avoid the hateful partisanship that we currently see. Both of these guys seem to truly understand and believe that each of them want the best for the country, although their paths to getting there are different. In today’s hyperpolarization, there isn’t that belief, generally. The left doesn’t believe that the right has the nation’s best interests at heart, and the right doesn’t believe that about the left either. The common belief seems to be that the other side wants to destroy America. Perhaps it’s an issue of actual individuals no longer matter, only the tribe, and consequently, there are less and less unique friendships that cross the political aisle. Tribe matters more than the individual, and there is an expected loyalty to the tribe, or else.

    Dana (6995e0)

  14. Good for them. That was really refreshing to see.

    “We both love our country and want what’s best but have different opinions on how to get there,” is a pretty important message for all to understand.

    Nate (5efffe)

  15. Go Utah.

    DRJ (aede82)

  16. OT but election related: fivethirtyeight now has a cool interactive electoral map where the probabilities update to reflect your predictions about battleground states.

    Mathgeeks, activate!

    Dave (1bb933)

  17. Great ad, by great Americans.
    I used to tell my kids that our political opponents were wrong, not evil. Until Trump.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  18. It is nice to see Utah politicians stand up to the Come hate with us movement on both sides in American politics. Texas?

    DRJ (aede82)

  19. “Great ad, by great Americans.

    I used to tell my kids that our political opponents were wrong, not evil. Until Trump.“
    __

    Truly captures the message of the video.
    _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  20. It is nice to see Utah politicians stand up to the Come hate with us movement on both sides in American politics.

    “both sides” LOL

    After Trump, they’ll go back to hating all conservatives, and conservatives will go back to knowing they’re hated. That’s how the “both sides” works.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  21. After Trump, they’ll go back to hating all conservatives, and conservatives will go back to knowing they’re hated. That’s how the “both sides” works.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 10/21/2020 @ 9:53 am

    It sounds like there’s hate here. To justify hating them, you are saying they will hate you back. and hey, that’s a self fulfilling prophecy.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  22. This is really good. I hope it get’s legs and becomes more of a norm. I’m tired of a political landscape where anyone that’s not frothing at the mouth because their opponent is a Nazi/Commie is attacked for being a squish/rino/sell out.

    Unfortunately there’s a growing chunk of the electorate that wants their elected officials to perform hate.

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  23. And yet this site claims Trump is an existential threat but we must be civil. Contradict yourselves much?

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  24. To justify hating them

    Conservatives don’t hate them, nor do I. That was exactly my point.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  25. “both sides” LOL

    After Trump, they’ll go back to hating all conservatives, and conservatives will go back to knowing they’re hated. That’s how the “both sides” works.

    From the original post:

    The kneejerk partisan response to this, from both sides, is “well, you can’t be civil because the other side is so bad!” (Prediction: there will be plenty of that in the comments to this thread, and all of the people saying it will be Trump supporters — or anti-anti-Trump types.)

    Always trust content from patterico.com

    Dave (1bb933)

  26. These guys think the best of each other. Most politicians (and Americans in general) seem to think the worst of those in a different political party. Our starting points with regard to those who do not share our political views makes a huge difference in how we treat them. Especially, it would seem, when dealing with a competitor. When someone is the political opposite of us, it’s not necessarily an easy thing to do, but at the end of the day, if we can extend grace to them (hold opposing political views), then we have a greater chance of being heard – and from learning something from them (or at least having the views we already hold confirmed!).

    Dana (6995e0)

  27. Stick to numbers, Dave. Words and meaning are outside your wheelhouse.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  28. There are over 226,000 Covid 19 deaths. This site claims Trump is responsible for all of them. State governors have no agency whatsoever. Several commentators on this site have claimed Trump is an existential threat. The attitude of posters on this site does not lend itself to civility.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  29. I wonder if Stephen Miller will be able to constrain the orange from tweeting something nasty about this ad. Even odds we are graced with “Lyddle Spencer Cox thinks he can beat his Democratic opponent without me”.

    nk (1d9030)

  30. More decency and civility would be nice.

    I’m not as sure about “working together”. I think a little respectful disagreement is a good thing.

    Off topic; who are these anti-anti-Trump types? I’ve seen you mention them a couple of times and they sound like a nefarious group of malcontents and reprobates of the lowest order.

    frosty (f27e97)

  31. This site claims Trump is responsible for all of them.

    “This site”? Does that include Dana, JVW and DRJ, too. Or just Patterico? What’s the evidence?

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  32. Our starting points with regard to those who do not share our political views makes a huge difference in how we treat them. Especially, it would seem, when dealing with a competitor.

    Unfortunately, social media and the internet have turned civility into an anachronism. Further, the starting point for civil political conversation used to be a lot closer to the middle. Not these days; the internet allows for the fringes to have way too much influence and set the tone for the debate.

    Hoi Polloi (15cfac)

  33. Show me a post where Patterico has criticized governors in the northeast for excess Covid 19 deaths. He always mentions the number of Covid 19 deaths when criticizing trump. Show me any of your posts Paul where you have criticized someone other than Trump for the number of Covid 29 deaths.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  34. Conservatives don’t hate them, nor do I. That was exactly my point.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 10/21/2020 @ 10:04 am

    Read your comment again. that ain’t love. A lot of times partisans express extreme anger at the other side because they will be mad back. It’s a lot like this advertisement in that it can have an (opposite) impact. In fact, I’d say this is precisely the heart of the Trump movement, and why our country is losing today.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  35. Stick to numbers, Dave. Words and meaning are outside your wheelhouse.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 10/21/2020 @ 10:21 am

    You three guys have really been upset lately. Not sure what Dave said to justify the insult.

    He interpreted your comment fairly.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  36. There’s more than one ad on the same theme from these two guys, BTW. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/us/elections/opponents-in-the-utah-governors-race-appear-in-ads-together-promoting-civility.html The one Dave (and I) linked in the previous thread is different from the one Patterico linked above.

    nk (1d9030)

  37. Show me a post where Patterico has criticized governors in the northeast for excess Covid 19 deaths. He always mentions the number of Covid 19 deaths when criticizing trump. Show me any of your posts Paul where you have criticized someone other than Trump for the number of Covid 29 deaths.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4) — 10/21/2020 @ 10:47 am

    Every COVID-19 death in NY state that took place at a retirement home lies solely at the feet of Gov. Cuomo. The fact that the media has not even mentioned this shows you that the media has no bias.

    Hoi Polloi (15cfac)

  38. He interpreted your comment fairly.

    Says someone who still can’t figure it out.

    I forget who said it but something like “the left thinks the right is evil, whereas the right thinks the left is misguided.”

    I don’t hate the left, but you snd Dave will continue to shoehorn my words into what you want me to say. As someone said recently, “that ain’t love.”

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  39. Good analysis:

    Trump’s campaign is laser-focused on appealing to Donald Trump

    Over the past four years, thanks in part to the realities of being an unpopular president facing daily scrutiny from political opponents, the public and the media, he has buried himself in a nest of sycophancy. Internal critics have been ousted from the White House. Even before the pandemic, his public events were tightly controlled and limited to safe spaces. He has regularly sought comfort in large rallies and kid-glove interviews with Fox News — the network that he relies on to provide his window into the broader world. (During a rare non-Fox appearance last week, Trump attempted to rebut questions about the pandemic by citing numbers not from his coronavirus task force but instead from Laura Ingraham’s Fox News show.)

    This cocooning has allowed Trump to continue to be Trump, certainly. But it has meant an immersion in a world that increasingly operates at a distance from reality. His insistence about how his campaign was spied upon — claims only lightly tied to actual evidence — are sincere in their anger, given that he feeds off Fox News’s focus on the idea as much as he feeds into it. By now it’s almost Howard Hughesian, reminiscent of the rich guy isolating himself in a clean world where he can control the unpleasantries that might filter in. (Note that this did not work with actual viruses.)

    For members of his campaign team, then, things get tricky. They need to speak to people outside Trump’s bubble, but Trump is almost solely focused on that bubble alone. The others in that bubble, meanwhile, insist that it’s the bubble that is the real and that concerns should be the focus of Trump’s attention. Letting Trump be Trump in 2020 means letting the campaign drift into the bubble.

    Dave (1bb933)

  40. I don’t hate the left, but you snd Dave will continue to shoehorn my words into what you want me to say.

    You mocked the notion of inter-partisan civility because your opponents are so terrible.

    Which is *exactly* what Patrick predicted you would say.

    Dave (1bb933)

  41. Show me a post where Patterico has criticized governors in the northeast for excess Covid 19 deaths.

    That wasn’t the question, 1DM. I think you should answer the actual one.

    Show me any of your posts Paul where you have criticized someone other than Trump for the number of Covid 29 deaths.

    Easy.

    Cuomo runs a state of 19.5 million, Trump runs a country of 331.5 million. I think it’s more than possible that neither politician gets a full share of the blame.
    Cuomo is to blame for delaying mitigation and for mishandling nursing homes. Cuomo also gets credit for containing the virus in his state. Since June, new cases have stabilized and deaths have reduced to a trickle.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  42. If you think they all are haters, that’s hating them. If the shoe fits…

    Trump didn’t exactly pioneer this method of division, but it’s a great way to ensure your fervent supporters never listen to wrongthink.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  43. Since June, new cases have stabilized and deaths have reduced to a trickle.

    Why does Cuomo get credit for deaths reducing to a trickle? Other confounding variables could be at play.

    Hoi Polloi (15cfac)

  44. You mocked the notion of inter-partisan civility because your opponents are so terrible.
    Which is *exactly* what Patrick predicted you would say.

    No, Dave. I was mocking the notion of the “both sides” argument, put forth in the post and the comment I was responding to.

    In other words, at total variance to what was predicted.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  45. @nk 11. Interesting comment re Achilles. When I read the Iliad, I don’t get the sense that Hector, Priam, et al are bad nor that Achilles and Menelaus are good in a deep moral sense. They oppose each other even fight to the death, but Achilles is angriest at his own side’s leaders.

    Fred (e4db21)

  46. “but it’s a great way to ensure your fervent supporters never listen to wrongthink.“
    _

    The complete news blackout on the info found on Hunter’s laptop approves this message.
    _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  47. The kneejerk partisan response to this, from both sides, is “well, you can’t be civil because the other side is so bad!”

    It didn’t take long for that part to play out.

    (Prediction: there will be plenty of that in the comments to this thread, and all of the people saying it will be Trump supporters — or anti-anti-Trump types.)

    This part not so much.

    Still a little worried about one of these anti-anti-Trump types sneaking up on me.

    frosty (f27e97)

  48. “Is it always this hot here?”

    …and dead Lee Atwater smiled.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  49. I was mocking the notion of the “both sides” argument,

    what do you mean?

    put forth in the post

    Just read it twice and no it is not. It’s a pretty generalized and simple praise of the idea of people just disagreeing without attacking or hating.

    Once again you are accusing people of putting words in your mouth, simply by responding to what you said directly. Once again you put words in everyone’s mouth that you know they didn’t say.

    The complete news blackout on the info found on Hunter’s laptop approves this message.
    _

    harkin (7fb4c9) — 10/21/2020 @ 11:19 am

    Supposedly 60 minutes asked Biden about it, which is a pretty tough question, and it’s been covered by the media extensively. You seem to know about it somehow. So no, there’s no blackout.

    Now, most of us agree Rudy’s version of things is not credible. And now that Rudy was shoving his hand down his pants at a girl acting like a 15 year old in the new Cohen movie, I guess he will be otherwise occupied for a while. Trump sure does attract trash.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  50. But…but…literally Hitler!

    Barry Jacobs (e757ce)

  51. There are more states than NY with excess deaths. Patterico blames Cuomo for what exactly? And then gives him credit after the horse has already left the barn. His post indicates Trump deserves only blame. There are several things Trump did that help mitigate the impact. But these things are ignored.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  52. Why does Cuomo get credit for deaths reducing to a trickle?

    So he gets blamed for the deaths and no credit for containing the virus by implementing mitigation measures? That’s what call a double standard, Hoi. The bad and the good all happened on his watch.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  53. And now that Rudy was shoving his hand down his pants

    Cohen went after Ron Paul, too.

    I guess in this nascent era of civility, Cohen and Chait are now our conservative standard bearers. So impressed that we haven’t changed our principles.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  54. It’s a little more than “mishandling nursing homes”. He is responsible for actual nursing home deaths.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  55. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 10/21/2020 @ 11:31 am

    So he gets blamed for the deaths and no credit for containing the virus by implementing mitigation measures the numbers going down because a significant fraction of the high risk groups died?

    FIFY; I guess that’s technically a mitigation measure. Those villages won’t save themselves.

    frosty (f27e97)

  56. It’s a little more than “mishandling nursing homes”. He is responsible for actual nursing home deaths.

    Um, yes, 1DM, we’re not disagreeing. Cuomo’s delays and his decisions on nursing homes resulted in the deaths of thousands–perhaps tens of thousands–of New Yorkers. DeBlasio gets a good share of that blame, too.
    What you apparently refuse to acknowledge is that Trump’s months-long stream of incompetence, lying, mitigation delays, downtalking, bad testing, and bad decisions on reopening, masks, tests, social distancing and such have killed tens of thousands of Americans.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  57. And now that Rudy was shoving his hand down his pants

    Cohen went after Ron Paul, too.

    I guess in this nascent era of civility, Cohen and Chait are now our conservative standard bearers. So impressed that we haven’t changed our principles.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 10/21/2020 @ 11:31 am

    SBC is a comedian. His ‘bit’ is to put normal people into a situation with a wierdo and then everyone can laugh at the person for as their ingrained habits of treating people decently is is contrasted with SBC abnormal behavior. He’s not a standard bearing for anything.

    His goal is entertainment. I strongly dislike his act FWIW.

    But the fact that Rudy fell for it in 2020 is news because it reflects on Rudy being a complete idiot. I’ll refrain from judging the comments about Rudy grabbing his junk until the clip is available. For all I knew he just sat on himself and needed to adjust. Which is rude AF in company, but may not be sexual in nature.

    I don’t mean this as a insult, but it’s odd to me that you even put Cohen on the same level as Chait and imply that they’re someone figures of significance.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  58. @39. This is just the time of the Purge of the Ideologues– long overdue– both Right and Left, by ballot or simply by age. The pragmatists and transactional types are increasingly ‘in vogue.’

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  59. the numbers going down because a significant fraction of the high risk groups died?

    Nonsense on stilts.

    According to the NYPost, there were 101,000 nursing home residents, with 2600 confirmed COVID deaths and about an equal number suspected who weren’t tested before dying. That makes 5.2% of the nursing home population, hardly “a significant fraction” in terms of reducing the total number at risk.

    As of May, only 12% of the state’s confirmed fatalities occurred in nursing homes, making the whole narrative dubious.

    Dave (1bb933)

  60. His ‘bit’ is to put normal people into a situation with a wierdo and then everyone can laugh at the person for as their ingrained habits of treating people decently is is contrasted with SBC abnormal behavior. He’s not a standard bearing for anything.

    Allen Funt.

    Revisit ‘Candid Camera’ & ‘What Do You Say To a Naked Lady?’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  61. So he gets blamed for the deaths and no credit for containing the virus by implementing mitigation measures? That’s what call a double standard, Hoi. The bad and the good all happened on his watch.

    Paul Montagu (77c694) — 10/21/2020 @ 11:31 am

    I said there could be confounding variables bringing down the death rate – like hospitals knowing how to treat COVID-19 patients better. Don’t know how Cuomo gets to spike that football, but whatever. Wouldn’t be the first time Democrats take credit for something outside of their purview.

    Hoi Polloi (15cfac)

  62. One of the sad ironies of our present situation is this: if Rudy and Hunter Biden went bar-hopping in Manhattan, they’d probably both get laid, and be best-buds by the end of the night…

    What to make of a political system that turns such natural friends into bitter enemies?

    Dave (1bb933)

  63. Fred @ 46. That’s pretty much my view, too.

    nk (1d9030)

  64. But the fact that Rudy fell for it in 2020 is news because it reflects on Rudy being a complete idiot.

    In any other context it would be a whatabout.

    I don’t mean this as a insult, but it’s odd to me that you even put Cohen on the same level as Chait and imply that they’re someone figures of significance

    Others brought them up, so why is this directed at me? They’re both unworthy of mention.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  65. GO Utes!

    Doubter44 (347d19)

  66. One of the sad ironies of our present situation is this: if Rudy and Hunter Biden went bar-hopping in Manhattan, they’d probably both get laid, and be best-buds by the end of the night…

    What to make of a political system that turns such natural friends into bitter enemies?

    Dave (1bb933) — 10/21/2020 @ 11:59 am

    LOL!

    Dustin (4237e0)

  67. It would be uplifting if not more positive ‘news’ to report on the hundreds of thousands who have contracted and recovered from Covid 19 beyond a few politicians and celebrities. But then thousands of planes take off and land safely every day w/o being front page news. When one crashes, it is. ‘If it bleeds, it leads.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  68. @60 I stand corrected. That was a poor way to word a statistical statement. It looks like as of August the number is closer to 6,600 and that is not a significant percentage of 101k.

    In fact, as of August, nursing home deaths in NY accounted for 20% of the total in the state. That’s caused another problem for him since that’s less than half the national average and less than neighboring states. That discrepancy has triggered calls for an investigation from both sides of the aisle. An investigation Cuomo has avoided.

    frosty (f27e97)

  69. Updated advice:
    Every gun is loaded…
    every mike is hot…
    every snake is venomous…
    the Zoom camera is always watching…
    every oddball stranger is Sacha Baron Cohen.

    whembly (c30c83)

  70. After Trump, they’ll go back to hating all conservatives, and conservatives will go back to knowing they’re hated

    Five years ago, Trumpers began expressing hatred of any conservative or Republican who wasn’t on the Trump Train, suggesting they were traitors. Trump himself seems more hostile to any Republican who utters a critical word about him than he is to Dems.

    Trumpers equated civility with being a loser — and simultaneously whined that people were saying mean things about them.

    Trump-critical conservatives aren’t expecting leftists to love them. They’re doing what they think is best for the country.

    Radegunda (1b54d4)

  71. But the fact that Rudy fell for it in 2020 is news because it reflects on Rudy being a complete idiot.

    In any other context it would be a whatabout.

    How do you see this as a whatabout? I’m not trying to minimize some behavior by a 3rd person. I’m saying that Rudy falling for a Borat skit makes him an idiot.

    Others brought them up, so why is this directed at me? They’re both unworthy of mention.

    Because it seemed odd to put a comedian on the same level as a commentator.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  72. Colin Wright
    @SwipeWright

    Twitter suspends account for tweeting “only females get cervical cancer.” Claims the statement is “hateful conduct.”
    __

    We are truly heading for a wonderful new world.
    _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  73. 76 year old Rudy did nothing alarming cause the girl was 24, according to the talking point. Even though this was an obvious honey pot after Rudy was warned there were efforts to compromise him.

    No wonder Putin keeps winning and the USA keeps losing.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  74. And yet this site claims Trump is an existential threat but we must be civil. Contradict yourselves much?
    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

    Why must Trump be given more “civility” — or deference — than he generally extends to other people?

    If the holder of presidential power behaves in a way that is extraordinarily selfish, grossly dishonest, reckless and erratic, etc., it is not “uncivil” for we the citizens to call him out and hold him to account. It is patriotic. I thought Trumpers were all for patriotism.

    Radegunda (1b54d4)

  75. I’m saying that Rudy falling for a Borat skit makes him an idiot.

    Do we need to go over the long list of people who fell for a SBC skit? Where does Schiff falling for the nude pics prank fit in?

    Because it seemed odd to put a comedian on the same level as a commentator

    Which one is the comedian?

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  76. Radegunda (1b54d4) — 10/21/2020 @ 12:16 pm

    Why must Trump be given more “civility” — or deference — than he generally extends to other people?

    You don’t have too but a prediction was made:

    The kneejerk partisan response to this, from both sides, is “well, you can’t be civil because the other side is so bad!” (Prediction: there will be plenty of that in the comments to this thread, and all of the people saying it will be Trump supporters — or anti-anti-Trump types.)

    and you might harsh Dave’s mellow.

    Always trust content from patterico.com

    Dave (1bb933) — 10/21/2020 @ 10:07 am

    frosty (f27e97)

  77. BnP, Falling for Borat after the first movie came out makes him an Idiot. Sorry that you want Rudy to be a figure that should be taken seriously, but he’s not.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  78. My comment below deals with my personal interaction with individuals. I am not directing or “attacking” any individual here as I do not know any of you personally. They are just my honest and accurate observations of my own experience.

    I have engaged people of many political positions in discussion of Trump, Biden, the election etc. in many cases the people I talk to have no idea where I stand on the candidates. I simply ask questions, listen, follow up with more questions. I have made it a policy to speak in opposition to what they say in an attempt to fully understand their stance and why they are voting the way they do. So when I engage a Trump supporter I often throw out leftist talking points. Biden supporters I toss about Trump accomplishments. The Anti-Trumpers usually engage me as “I’m a conservative but I hate Trump and will happily vote for anybody but Trump”.

    My personal experience is the majority of Trump supporters will point to specifics, such as taxes, less regulation, court appointments etc. they have engaged in discourse. Most will say they think his character is horrible but that they don’t vote for a President to be their moral leader but to govern.

    The Biden supporters will within the first minute do nothing but talk negative about Trump. They actually often wish physical harm or death on him. They do not talk about Biden or his policies, just how much they Hate Trump. When pressed about Biden’s mental decline they don’t care. When asked about the economy they move to a stance that Capitalism is evil. Their discussion almost always ends up being based on racism that they believe all Republicans engage in, social justice and the need to have higher taxes.

    The Never-Trump group is actually the worst to talk to. They just go straight into saying very hateful words. Many have stated they don’t care if our nation goes socialist as long as Trump doesn’t get re-elected. They honestly have nothing positive to say about either candidate. It’s only about Trump not getting elected and not what the future might hold.

    So while I find this video appealing I do believe it is a fairy tale as long as the hatred for trip continues because in my personal interactions it has been the leftists and Never-Trumpers that vocalize the most hate yet they point only at the Trump supporters as being the hate-mongers. If you can’t look in a mirror and see an image not distorted it isn’t much use.

    Marci (037dff)

  79. Rudy’s more than an idiot. He’s a national security problem. He’s rubbing himself around a stranger who is much younger than his daughter, after warnings of efforts to compromise him to spread Russian disinformation.

    I would bet a lot that Rudy’s being blackmailed right now. I wonder how many sleazy losers in the administration are.

    What it that was Trump in that bed ten years ago at Epstein’s island? How would his behavior be any different?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  80. There are over 226,000 Covid 19 deaths. This site claims Trump is responsible for all of them.

    That is completely false and you owe me an apology. I won’t demand an apology, but a decent person would give me one. Here’s what I will demand, though. I demand that you provide proof of that statement or retract it.

    It’s common knowledge that Cuomo’s nursing home policies caused deaths.

    “This site claims Trump is responsible for all COVID deaths” is not a claim that can be substantiated by responding “where are the posts pointing out Cuomo is responsible for some of the deaths?” I don’t write posts about things that are common knowledge, and my failure to post about Cuomo’s nursing home failure is no more significant than my failure to post about any of a hundred other obvious things. Following your logic, I could claim that 1DaveMac has supported diddling four-year-olds, and when asked for proof, I could simply ask: Where are the comments from 1DaveMac opposing people who diddle four-year-olds?

    I have never claimed Trump is responsible for all of the COVID deaths, you can’t prove I did (because I didn’t), and so I want you to retract your false statement.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  81. You mocked the notion of inter-partisan civility because your opponents are so terrible.

    Which is *exactly* what Patrick predicted you would say.

    Yup, this has played out pretty much exactly the way I thought it would.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  82. I’m putting 1DaveMac into moderation until I get my retraction.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  83. And if he doesn’t feel like giving it to me, then have a nice life, pal.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  84. Time123 (f5cf77) — 10/21/2020 @ 12:27 pm

    I keep wondering why it matters. Borat could have shown up with the laptop and I’d be skeptical of the contents but given the nature of the charge I’d still be in favor of at least a cursory investigation. Granted you’re asking for trouble entertaining the idea of being serious anywhere near Borat but if they’re valid then how Borat got them is an interesting but independent thing.

    frosty (f27e97)

  85. Yup, this has played out pretty much exactly the way I thought it would.

    Yeah, same here.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  86. Marci (037dff) — 10/21/2020 @ 12:28 pm

    I simply ask questions, listen, follow up with more questions. I have made it a policy to speak in opposition to what they say in an attempt to fully understand their stance and why they are voting the way they do.

    Well said generally and I think this is a great approach. The only way to learn what other people think is to ask them and a good way to challenge your own preconceptions is to ask and listen.

    frosty (f27e97)

  87. What Marci and Frosty said.

    In the meantime, Robert Downey Jr is doing his part to promote civility:

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/chris-pratt-criticized-for-skipping-joe-biden-fundraiser-robert-downey-jr-comes-to-his-defense

    qdpsteve (8d496a)

  88. @80: Marci, your experience mirrors mine. Virtually all the co-workers in my group are on the left. I have some lefty neighbors. They are less civil in public settings because they know they can get away with it. It’s much harder to get cancelled when you’re on the left. I keep quiet.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  89. Marci, your experiences are rather different then mine.

    My experience

    Trump Supporters: Talk up Trumps accomplishments, especially that he stands up to the media. Seem to take criticism of Trump as a personal attack.
    Biden Supporters: Talk up Biden being able to beat Trump. Don’t seem very fond of Biden.
    Anti-Trumpers: Don’t like Biden, think he’s much better then trump. Seem angry at Trump and his supporters.

    I’ve never had anyone seriously wish harm on either Candidate to me.

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  90. @89: Yes, what’s going on with Pratt is a case study in why the “both sides” narrative is nonsense.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  91. I keep wondering why it matters. Borat could have shown up with the laptop and I’d be skeptical of the contents but given the nature of the charge I’d still be in favor of at least a cursory investigation. Granted you’re asking for trouble entertaining the idea of being serious anywhere near Borat but if they’re valid then how Borat got them is an interesting but independent thing.

    Frosty, When a clown known for dishonesty brings you explosive information skepticism is appropriate. It looks to me like it’s getting investigated in more then a cursory manner.

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  92. BnP, The link shows that he’s been criticized and that at least one of his friends has come to his defense. I don’t see how it supports your assertions that the right is persecuted.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  93. Hatred for Trump not trip.

    Marci (df3a1b)

  94. “Supposedly 60 minutes asked Biden about it, which is a pretty tough question [lol], and it’s been covered by the media extensively [lololol]. You seem to know about it somehow. So no, there’s no blackout.” [lololololol]
    __

    The cover-up is getting more coverage than the contents.

    There were even freedom-loving Conservatives in here saying the NYPost should be banned from Twitter.
    _

    “Up is down. Black is white“ – The Dane – Miller’s Crossing
    _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  95. Time123 (ca85c9) — 10/21/2020 @ 12:50 pm

    frosty, When a clown known for dishonesty brings you explosive information skepticism is appropriate. It looks to me like it’s getting investigated in more then a cursory manner.

    Not disagreeing. But to fill the vacuum created by Biden’s non-denial responses there’s a lot of work being done to imply it’s fake by criticizing the source, asserting this is Soviet disinfo, etc. We’ve already seen this movie.

    frosty (f27e97)

  96. @97, that’s the part of the story they can investigate and write about. If it’s real it’s an odd chain of events. If it’s a set up Rudy did a poor job placing the information. After a few days it looks to me that the Biden team is trying to put the burden on the accuser to fill out the story.

    Let’s contrast this with the Utah clip, which is the subject of the post.

    Trump and his team are pushing the message that Hunter is corrupt and Joe is involved. So we’re talking about Hunter and the providence of the accusation. Now they’ve moved on to “Hunter is a pedo.”

    In an alternative universe they could be talking about what they want to do with another 4 years that would be different from Biden and forcing him to get into specifics.

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  97. I don’t see how it supports your assertions that the right is persecuted.

    Here is a clear grass roots attempt to cancel Pratt, and those like Gunn and Downey who defend him, because he failed to attend a Biden fundraiser.

    I’m sure you can find an equivalent on the right cuz you know “both sides.” Let’s hear it.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  98. Time123 (f5cf77) — 10/21/2020 @ 12:52 pm

    BnP, The link shows that he’s been criticized and that at least one of his friends has come to his defense. I don’t see how it supports your assertions that the right is persecuted.

    proof by induction. Step #1, so long as one person on the right has at least one of his friends come to his defense that person isn’t being persecuted, step #2, step #3 all people on the right aren’t being persecuted.

    yes, I know, I’m not trying to say Pratt or all people on the right are being persecuted. It’s just an attempt at some humor and maybe to show that maybe both you and beer ‘n pretzels might have some flaws in the logic.

    frosty (f27e97)

  99. n the meantime, Robert Downey Jr is doing his part to promote civility:

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/chris-pratt-criticized-for-skipping-joe-biden-fundraiser-robert-downey-jr-comes-to-his-defense

    qdpsteve (8d496a) — 10/21/2020 @ 12:44 pm

    I can’t believe it is come to this. It’s like the AIDS ribbon Seinfeld episode.

    Who? Who won’t attend the Biden fundraiser?

    Hoi Polloi (15cfac)

  100. You seem to be using criticize and cancel as the same thing. I’m fine with people criticizing public figures.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  101. Frosty, Ann Hathoway got more hate for having bangs. This isn’t persecution.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  102. I’m fine with people criticizing public figures.

    So, we’ve moved from “both sides” to ok, I guess one side does it more but it’s just criticism, so meh.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  103. Who? Who won’t attend the Biden fundraiser?

    Hoi Polloi (15cfac) — 10/21/2020 @ 1:09 pm

    I agree. That whole effort is incredibly nasty and presumptuous. While I think Trump is the very worst, that doesn’t mean anyone is obligated to support the very, very lame Team D guy.

    Twitter is full of this stuff. The anger from the fringe is only amplified when similar fringe re-tweets and likes, and moderates are boring and ignored (or crapped on). They are constantly angry at people, often good people.

    It is really good that RDJ and a few others stepped up to praise Pratt as a good person. I think the whole idea of hating people to prove one’s goodness is awful (unless they genuinely are a terrible. Hate on OJ Simpson all you like).

    Stuff like this, on both sides, has really radicalized and cemented the division. It’s the source of Trump’s power, of the USA’s loss of prestige, of the doubt we have on democracy. I think this is why Russia seemed to be after both Hillary and Trump. They want the division more than anything.

    As I’ve said before, most of the Trump fans I know in person are really good people. A few are actually great people. It’s perplexing to me, but they are against Biden more than they are for Trump (same as me in reverse). Only on the internet are these discussions so dishonest and debate sport-like.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  104. You don’t have too but a prediction was made:

    I’m not saying we can’t be civil because the other side is so bad. I’m saying:

    1. It’s weird for Trump defenders to complain about what they call incivility toward Trump, but never expect civility from him. Trump defenders promoted his rudeness and crudeness and vindictiveness as a strength, while lambasting the GOP “losers” who spoke of civility. So when Trump apologists demand more polite deference toward Trump, it’s hollow, and even hypocritical.

    2. It is not incivility to express the view that the president of the United States behaves in a way that is very bad for the country. Virtually every Trump defender thought it was a good thing to criticize Obama strongly. Did the rules change?

    Radegunda (20775b)

  105. Who? Who won’t attend the Biden fundraiser?

    This is the man we need to hate, Comrades!

    Dave (1bb933)

  106. I think this is why Russia seemed to be after both Hillary and Trump. They want the division more than anything.

    Agreed. It’s like Xi and Putin watched Captain America: Civil War and thought “Zemo has the right idea.”

    Hoi Polloi (15cfac)

  107. I’m fine with people criticizing public figures.

    So, we’ve moved from “both sides” to ok, I guess one side does it more but it’s just criticism, so meh.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 10/21/2020 @ 1:15 pm

    Both sides clearly demonize their opponents and attack them personally.

    Your example doesn’t look like persecution to any meaningful degree.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  108. Agreed. It’s like Xi and Putin watched Captain America: Civil War and thought “Zemo has the right idea.”

    Hoi Polloi (15cfac) — 10/21/2020 @ 1:18 pm

    Exactly. If we tear eachother down, we’re done. If they tear at us, we’ll unite against our common foe. Somehow, this stuff is not really being accepted as the attack that it is. Iran, North Korea, China, and Russia each have this capability and are using it to keep the free world at its own throat.

    I think whatever facilities they have for that should become craters in the ground, plain and simple.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  109. We don’t need civility in politics (if defined as not saying anything derogatory to the opponent); we need honesty, including honesty about bad people. (that means being careful about the accusations – I mean making sure your evidence means what you say it means.)

    Now even bad things maybe shouldn’t be said (or at least not emphasized) if they are irrelevant.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  110. I didn’t mention anything about persecution. Straw man.

    And, I asked for an equivalent example and you can’t find one.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  111. @91.

    Trump Supporters: Talk up Trumps accomplishments, especially that he stands up to the media. Seem to take criticism of Trump as a personal attack

    Perhaps the reason personal offense is taken is because they experience what I have when I do say I am a Trump supporter. If I do in the course of the discussion say I support Trump I am personally attacked. I am told I am a racist, homophobic, transphobic, a traitor to women etc etc. I AM in a vast majority of cases attacked with hateful words and polite discourse ceases. I walk away at that point.

    Marci (037dff)

  112. I am pretty sure that anti-Trump folks can be uncivil, too. Matter of fact suggesting that only pro-Trump or anti-anti-Trump types can be uncivil, is uncivil.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  113. Marci:

    If you can’t look in a mirror and see an image not distorted it isn’t much use.

    Well said. You might try it, too.

    DRJ (aede82)

  114. As far as civility is concerned in American politics, it isn’t as time-honored as some might thing. Even away from the Civil War period (and shouldn’t it be called the UnCivil War?) and Reconstruction (the KKK was the military arm of the Democrat #resistance), the Adams-Jefferson campaign was pretty terrible, and Hamilton and Burr had that falling out (partly) as a result.

    Probably the closest we come to the current unpleasantness is the ruling Democrat-Republican Party splitting in the late 1820s between Jacksonian Democrats and the anti-Jackson Whigs. That was really uncivil.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  115. And, I asked for an equivalent example and you can’t find one.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 10/21/2020 @ 1:27 pm

    You did this yesterday and it is amazingly obnoxious. Who are you to demand people fetch information for you? And who are you to insist they have failed, or lack the ability, or are admitting fault, if they do not jump at your commands?

    What a freaking troll! Stop doing this crap please. You can easily use a search engine to find the best examples against your point of view. No one here has to do that. I certainly do not like Biden enough to explain to you how great he is in interviews. Your insistence that I ‘waved a white flag’ because I only provided two examples is simply trolling. I don’t praise much about Biden so why would I run around praising him?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  116. I am pretty sure that anti-Trump folks can be uncivil, too.

    Absolutely! I’m proud to call Trump a real POS.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  117. And yet this site claims Trump is an existential threat but we must be civil. Contradict yourselves much?
    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

    In 2106, we heard that it was crucial to elect Trump because Hillary would absolutely destroy America. Remember the “Flight 93 Election”? And Phyllis Schlafly inter alia declaring that Trump was our “last chance” to save America?

    Now Trump defenders say that any patriotic American will vote for Trump because Joe and Kamala will kill America for good and there will be no coming back.

    And then they say it’s uncivil to say that Trump is bad for America.

    Contradiction much?

    Radegunda (20775b)

  118. I don’t mean this as a insult, but it’s odd to me that you even put Cohen on the same level as Chait

    Yes, it’s like how Larry Flynt was taken to be some kind of patriot when he went after Republicans after the Clinton impeachment. Kind of funny in the aftermath how his expose of Speaker-elect Livingston’s fairly normal sexual appitite got us Speaker Hastert, a pedophile and porkmeister.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  119. Marci:

    If you can’t look in a mirror and see an image not distorted it isn’t much use.
    Well said. You might try it, too.

    DRJ (aede82) — 10/21/2020 @ 1:32 pm

    I said VERY clearly at the top of my post my comment was not directed at any individual on this site. It was a post of my personal experiences. And yet all you read is that I am somehow attacking you and turn around and make it personal.

    Marci (df3a1b)

  120. Time123 (ca85c9) — 10/21/2020 @ 1:05 pm

    that’s the part of the story they can investigate and write about.

    They can also investigate the authenticity of the emails themselves.

    If it’s real it’s an odd chain of events. If it’s a set up Rudy did a poor job placing the information.

    Skepticism is valid. That’s why you authenticate the emails.

    After a few days it looks to me that the Biden team is trying to put the burden on the accuser to fill out the story.

    Of course. They really want to kick that can down the road. It’s becoming increasingly obvious that they are unwilling to engage on the content of the emails. That makes perfect sense but it also adds support to the idea that the emails are real. Innocent until proven guilty is a questionable political tactic though.

    So we’re talking about Hunter and the providence of the accusation.

    No and yes, and that’s the three card monty being played. There are several things being asserted but in general they fall into two groups. The first assertion is that Rudy has Hunter’s emails. The second are the accusations developing from the content of the emails. The providence of the accusations within the emails doesn’t rest on Rudy and the scope of what we’re talking about depends on the content of the email. The providence of any accusations within the email rest on the authentication of the email itself. So said differently, if Rudy shows up and says he has Hunter’s emails the first question to answer is whether those are actually Hunter’s emails. If there is no way to authenticate the data then it rests on Rudy’s credibility and everything is in the first group. If the emails can be independently verified Rudy is no longer a factor and we’re in the second group. At least some of the emails have been authenticated by other people, i.e. other recipients of the emails.

    Trump and his team are pushing the message that Hunter is corrupt and Joe is involved. So we’re talking about Hunter and the providence of the accusation. Now they’ve moved on to “Hunter is a pedo.”

    Not if the email has been authenticated and authenticating it has nothing to do with Rudy. It’s simply a matter of having the raw email and then it becomes either a technical investigation or you find someone copied on the email who has their copy.

    frosty (f27e97)

  121. whose bailing out the rioters, whose being funded by the same long con of thousand currents, you have to be blind to see otherwise,

    yes flynt empowered the pedophile hastert, he also had dan moldea do the dirty work against ken starr, who allowed his contentious expose, interference to be published.

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  122. Several commentators on this site have claimed Trump is an existential threat.

    I have. And I will do so again. This realization was enough to make sure I could never vote for him, although I get annoyed with incorrect and/or unproven allegations against him from time to time. Even the Devil should not be libeled, since it diminishes factual reports.

    Why do I say he is an existential threat? Because his demonstrated temper, ignorance, dismissal of information and advice, paranoia, myopic self-interest and uncritical beliefs make him manifestly unfit to be in control of nuclear weapons, or being the Commander-in-Chief in charge of the nation’s defense. He has a job in which, in a crisis, he can cause serious and irreversible destruction to Americans and the world through simple miscalculation, and he shows no evidence of being able to make decisions based on facts.

    So, the rest of his policies do not matter. He is an existential threat — one whose continuance in the most critical office presents a clear and present danger to the nation.

    That’s not being uncivil. That’s being accurate.

    Also, he’s a ****ing ****. That’s uncivil. See the difference?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  123. they’ve had nearly a year to authenticate, yet they do nothing,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  124. Utah. Interesting place:

    – In the 2010 Census estimates, 89.2% of the state population is white and European American. Hispanics are the next largest group with 13.0%, followed by Asians at 1.7% and Native American at 1.3%.

    – Utah has a high total birth rate, and the youngest population of any U.S. state.

    – In 2000, 49.9% female and 50.1% male constituted the gender makeup of Utah.

    – The age-adjusted percentage of Utah adults who were obese increased from 19.5% in 2000 to 28.4% in 2018. [Nearly 1 in 3?!?!] Utah ranked 40th highest among the 50 states and the District of Columbia.

    – Religion:

    Christianity 73%

    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 55%
    Evangelicals 7%
    Mainline Protestants 6%
    Catholic 5%
    Black Protestant Churches <1%
    Jehovah's Witnesses <1%
    Eastern Orthodox <1%
    Other Christian <1%

    Unaffiliated 22% Nothing in particular 18%

    Atheist 3%
    Agnostic 2%

    Non-Christian Faiths 4%

    Islam 1%
    Buddhism 1%
    Hinduism less than 1%
    Judaism less than 1%
    Other World Religions 1%

    – source, wiki.utah

    Yes, Utah– interesting place: getting fatter, mostly white– with the Bonneville Salt Flats.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  125. I said VERY clearly at the top of my post my comment was not directed at any individual on this site. It was a post of my personal experiences. And yet all you read is that I am somehow attacking you and turn around and make it personal.

    Marci

    No, Marci, I did not take your earlier comment petsonally, although this last one clearly is. My point was that I read your comment about your interactions with various people and it is noticeable that the Trump people are described as factual and specific. The Biden and Never Trump people are not. Are you sure you aren’t experiencing some confirmation bias?

    DRJ (aede82)

  126. Matt Bevan 🎙
    @MatthewBevan
    ·
    Rudy Giuliani is currently texting with someone he thinks is Ivanka Trump about being stung by Borat with his hand in his pants.

    It is not Ivanka Trump. It is a Democratic party activist.

    Rudy Giuliani is one of President Trump’s “cybersecurity advisors”. twitter.com/nickroberts317…

    [tweet already deleted]
    _ _

    Stephen L. Miller
    @redsteeze
    ·
    Journalists from ABC News, VOA, MSNBC, Politico and Time all retweeted the false Rudy texts from a Democrat activist.

    The New York Post is still locked out of their twitter account.
    __ _

    Definitely need to vote for more of this.
    _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  127. What a freaking troll! Stop doing this crap please. You can easily use a search engine to find the best examples against your point of view.

    Meh.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  128. 4. Hoi Polloi (15cfac) — 10/21/2020 @ 9:02 am

    Interesting it came from a red state and not a blue one.

    6. Dave (1bb933) — 10/21/2020 @ 9:08 am

    Yes, it’s remarkable and inspiring to see Trump’s un-American demagogy repudiated by one of the most conservative states in the country.

    It’s Utah!

    9. felipe at a different terminal (084d77) — 10/21/2020 @ 9:14 am

    There is our third party; the Utah Party.

    Too nice for someone to get involved in national politics?

    https://rabbisacks.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/CC-5774-Noah-Righteousness-is-not-Leadership.pdf

    13. Dana (6995e0) — 10/21/2020 @ 9:27 am

    It also demonstrates that it is possible to avoid the hateful partisanship that we currently see.

    Sure, if neither side starts being bad or corrupt. If one side does, what is needed is tempered attacks.

    Both of these guys seem to truly understand and believe that each of them want the best for the country, although their paths to getting there are different.

    How do we know? Who are they allied with?

    17. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 10/21/2020 @ 9:43 am

    I used to tell my kids that our political opponents were wrong, not evil. Until Trump.

    Trump was the first???

    And the question is: How evil?

    The word politician has a bad connotation.

    Going back all the way to Shakespeare:

    https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/death/finite-jest

    Hamlet: That skull had a tongue in it, and could sing once: how the knave jowls it to the ground, as if it were Cain’s jawbone that did the first murder! It might be the pate of a politician, which this ass now overreaches; one that would circumvent God, might it not?

    Horatio: It might, my lord.

    Of course, democratically elected politicians have more of an incentive to be not so bad. What’s happening is that the incentives are disappearing. Mainly, independence is disappearing.

    22.
    Time123 (ca85c9) — 10/21/2020 @ 10:01 am

    I’m tired of a political landscape where anyone that’s not frothing at the mouth

    The root cause of it is campaign finance reform.

    Here’s the latest bad effect:

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/10/26/the-regular-guy-who-almost-challenged-georgias-qanon-candidate

    Last month, Van Ausdal was at home cooking dinner when a police officer rang his doorbell and served him with divorce papers. Van Ausdal said that he and his wife had been having issues, but that “the plan was to wait until after the election and then separate.” (The couple has a young daughter.) The divorce papers required him to leave his house immediately. He spent a few nights in a hotel, but soon ran low on cash. His advisers, in consultation with the Federal Election Commission, determined that he could not use campaign funds to rent an apartment; even sleeping on a friend’s couch might be construed as an illegal campaign contribution. So he drove ten hours, to Indiana, to stay with his parents.

    Since he no longer lives in Georgia, Van Ausdal is now ineligible to represent the Fourteenth District, and he has suspended his campaign. His advisers wrote to Georgia’s secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, asking that Van Ausdal be disqualified, which would have allowed the Democratic Party to put forward another name. Raffensperger, a Republican, did not grant the request. Now Greene is running unopposed. Van Ausdal insists that his sudden departure from the race was due to a coincidence, not a conspiracy.

    Lawyers! I kind of wonder about his lawyers.

    Actually he had no chances anyway – no Republican has gotten less than 70% in that district.

    22. Time123 (f5cf77) — 10/21/2020 @ 11:44 am

    But the fact that Rudy fell for it in 2020 is news because it reflects on Rudy being a complete idiot.

    But an honest idiot. And he;s actually being careful. He says Hunter Biden might not have been telling the truth about giving half his money to his father for the past 30 years.

    How come the New York Post didn’t have that?

    I’ll refrain from judging the comments about Rudy grabbing his junk until the clip is available. For all I knew he just sat on himself and needed to adjust. Which is rude AF in company, but may not be sexual in nature.

    I don’t mean this as a insult, but it’s odd to me that you even put Cohen on the same level as Chait and imply that they’re someone figures of significance.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  129. harkin, I don’t know if that tweet is real, but if Rudy really bought it, and he’s a cybersecurity expert, that’s huge news. Unlike the NY Post, which is a tabloid promoting a smear at the last second of an election so the Russians can hurt our country.

    Thanks for sharing that. It is amazing that all you need is a selfie of Ivanka and Rudy Giuliani will tell you his secrets. Is he sharing classified information this way? Is he being blackmailed?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  130. Meh.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 10/21/2020 @ 2:03 pm

    this idea that you get to demand people ‘provide examples’ sets you up to be a troll twice. First, if anyone does give you examples, you just snidely ignore them, wasting their time while making them your errand boy. Second, if they do not follow your orders, you repeatedly mock them for not being ‘able’ to or for surrendering.

    Stop the personal attacks and lies about other people’s point of view, troll.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  131. BTW, I don’t think that either Hillary or Biden is unfit to be CinC. I would probably say that their party’s platform would turn the nation away from capitalism and the individual, and I consider that harmful, but we lived there between 1933 and 1980 without being destroyed. Reagan showed that you can recover and change direction if it gets too bad. So long as no one pulls up the ladder behind them, a representative democracy is resilient.

    Even Trump’s policies, foreign and domestic are not an existential threat. The problem is that he, himself, is responsible for things he cannot handle. Many have grown into the role (e.g. Truman, Nixon, W) when the3 times called for it. Trump not only shows no pattern of growth, but rather the opposite.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  132. PITTSBURGH, PA – Democrat presidential candidate Joe Biden claimed at an ABC News town hall event in Pittsburgh that the Boilermakers union in Pennsylvania has endorsed him and not President Trump. This claim is false. The Boilermakers Local 154 union endorsed Trump for reelection over Biden, which was in a letter issued last month. – lawenforcementtoday.com

    And he has not lived in Scranton, PA for 67 years.

    47 years the plagiarist and liar; you cannot teach an old swamp dog new tricks.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  133. Speaking of being uncivil:

    Maryland man charged with threatening Biden, Harris in letter on supporter’s doorstep
    Federal prosecutors on Wednesday charged a Maryland man with threatening Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden and running mate Kamala Harris in a letter left on the doorstep of a someone with a yard sign supporting their campaign.

    James Dale Reed, 42, of Frederick, is accused of leaving the handwritten letter that issued a warning to supporters of the Democratic candidates.

    “We have a list of homes and addresses by your election signs,” the letter said. “We are the ones with those scary guns, We are the ones your children have nightmares about … When We capture Grandpa Biden We will all severely beat him to the point of death.”

    The letter also threatened an act of sexual violence against Harris.
    …….
    and…..
    Threatening emails telling voters to vote for Trump target Brevard County residents
    Voters across Brevard County Tuesday afternoon received threatening emails purporting to come from the Proud Boys, a far-right group that espouses militant authoritarian ideology, telling them to vote for President Trump, or else.

    The emails appear to follow a similar format, and come from the email address “info@officialproudboys.com.”

    “Hi (name) We are in possession of all your information You are currently registered as a Democrat and we know this because we have gained access into the entire voting infrastructure. You will vote for Trump on Election Day or we will come after you. Change your party affiliation to Republican to let us know you received our message and will comply. We will know which candidate you voted for. I would take this seriously if I were you. (Voter’s address),” it read.
    ……
    The domain for the sender’s email “officialproudboys.com” was inactive by Tuesday afternoon although the site does appear to have been previously affiliated with the Proud Boys group. According to WUFT, internet records show that control over the internet address, created in March 2017, was changed Monday night.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  134. Stop the personal attacks and lies about other people’s point of view, troll.

    Yes, this. Hoop-erecting is a common troll move. If you fall for it they can 1) pretend not to see it, 2) claim it’s off-point, 3) Claim the source is unconvincing, 4) or find new hoops to erect.

    Almost never will they engage on the original topic, but attempt to move the conversation to your imperfect hoop-jumping.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  135. Stop the personal attacks and lies about other people’s point of view, troll.

    All aboard the civility train.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  136. The last two paragraphs were mistakenly quoted. I don’t even know what that’s about.

    Giuliani seems to think Hunter Biden could be another Anthony Weiner. He and Bernard Kerik reviewed something and determined that they should report it, even though it is already reported to the FBI since the FBI subpoeaned and took the original laptop and the external hard drive Hunter Biden’s recovered files were put on. (Hunter Biden probably never came back for it because he determined he wasn;t missing any files he wanted. He was really keeping all of his files encrypted on iCloud, and using laptops as terminals and backups.

    (the computer repairman still had the computer the files were temporarily restored on and he created another copy for Rudy less than two weeks ago.)

    Rudy reported some explicit photos to the Delaware state police, in the hopes of sparking an independent investigation, but the Delaware Attorney general simply referred the whole matter to the FBI.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  137. @136.’Hoop-erecting’

    Believe Canadian Cruz refers to them as ‘rings.’ 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  138. Frosty, I think the Biden campaign has decided that talking about this issue is a loser for them electorally. Meaning they want to use their time to talk to people about something else. That could be because the accusation that Joe was involved in helping Hunter is true, that it’s false but talking about it at all makes him look bad, or it could be because they think taking the time to prove that it’s false doesn’t help them get votes. Even if the emails are accurate, so far there’s nothing in them worse then Joe meeting with someone at Hunter’s request. That in itself would reflect poorly on Joe.

    It’s news, and the media loves to talk about anything salacious. So it’s getting covered. But Joe’s come up with a boring answer that he repeats. That leave corroboration of the facts in the emails, and their providence. So that’s what we’re getting. If Joe provides a lot of new information they’ll report that…but that’s not what he appears to want them talking about so he’s not feeding the story. He’s also not counter punching / asking watabout Trump kids.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  139. The most perfect example to me of why we should attempt civility, however defined, is the Cold War. Compared to WW2, the Cold War was manifestly civil, with some brush wars, some back-alley wars, a couple small blowups (Korea, Vietnam, Israel et al).

    This was brought home to me in 1989. At the end of a business trip I spent a day in Berlin, at the Wall. The evil of that thing is hard to describe, but it was like that rock at the end of Time Bandits: concentrated evil. And the thing is, 4 months later it was gone with the wind, and peacefully. A party actually.

    And two years later so was the Soviet Union.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  140. I didn’t mention anything about persecution. Straw man.

    And, I asked for an equivalent example and you can’t find one.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 10/21/2020 @ 1:27 pm

    An equivalent example of what? If I get bored I’ll hit google up. But you’re going to need to be specific.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  141. “I hate judgemental people!”

    (overheard)

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  142. @140. Yep; an peple are aleady voting so might as well bank them without answering hard questions.
    Which is why Obama is finally stumping for hidin’-put-a-lid-on-it-Biden, too– just 13 days before the election. It smacks of being too little, too late, though. Obama’s not on the ballot and is actually ‘old news’ now.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  143. The most perfect example to me of why we should attempt civility, however defined, is the Cold War. Compared to WW2, the Cold War was manifestly civil, with some brush wars, some back-alley wars, a couple small blowups (Korea, Vietnam, Israel et al).

    This was brought home to me in 1989. At the end of a business trip I spent a day in Berlin, at the Wall. The evil of that thing is hard to describe, but it was like that rock at the end of Time Bandits: concentrated evil. And the thing is, 4 months later it was gone with the wind, and peacefully. A party actually.

    And two years later so was the Soviet Union.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/21/2020 @ 2:19 pm

    On a personal level I think civility allows us to build bonds with people even when we disagree with them in specific areas. These bonds allow us to get things done where their is common ground. The current strategy of preventing all progress when you’re out of power is hurting our country.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  144. 81. Dustin (4237e0) — 10/21/2020 @ 12:30 pm

    Rudy’s more than an idiot. He’s a national security problem.

    Getting disinformation, and bad spin on real information, isn’t really a national security problem unless people don’t evaluate things correctly. I mean it can become so. He succeeded in getting an ambassador fired (not a national security problem but not good) and in getting U.S. aid cut off to a country for about 54 days or so.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  145. My point was that I read your comment about your interactions with various people and it is noticeable that the Trump people are described as factual and specific. The Biden and Never Trump people are not. Are you sure you aren’t experiencing some confirmation bias?

    No. Because that is exactly what I experienced. I have only had one instance I can recall where a Trump supporter said hateful things about Biden. These people thought I was a Biden supporter. They passionately talked issues. The Leftists and never-Trumpers only talked passionately in a negative way about Trump and did not talk issues. They DID voice hateful things about Trump and his supporters. So if you consider my actual experiences bias so be it but I’m not lying about my experience.

    Marci (df3a1b)

  146. Rudy may be an idiot, but that doesn’t mean that everything that falls into his hands should be ignored.

    Hunter Biden was dealing with corrupt Chinese Communist officials including one who’s now fallen out of favor and been arrested.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  147. Friend of mine that loves Trump tried to convince me Joe Biden is a pedophile today…guess we have different friends.

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  148. @148 may be?

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  149. The current strategy of preventing all progress when you’re out of power is hurting our country.

    Yes. And the theory is that if you hold the people hostage long enough, they will pick a side. It’s what happened in California, and the results have been disastrous (e.g. $22 billion for a bullet train from Bakersfield to Modesto, while L.A.’s infrastructure is starved for funds).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  150. I take the thing about Rudy as retribution against a whistle-blower.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  151. Giuliani: Even if Hunter Laptop Story ‘Isn’t Accurate,’ Americans ‘Are Entitled to Know It’

    Trump personal attorney Rudy Giuliani argued on Tuesday that the American public deserved to see reports based off material from Hunter Biden’s laptop “even if it isn’t accurate.”

    Appearing on AM1100 The Flag, a North Dakota radio show, the former New York City mayor grumbled about social media companies initially restricting access to the Post stories, saying it “reminds me of the communist and the Nazis.” From there, he said the story should be spread regardless of its accuracy. “They’ve set up an Iron Curtain so you can’t get out the New York Post story which I happened to know is 100 percent accurate,” Giuliani declared. “But even if it isn’t accurate, the American people are entitled to know it.”

    Giuliani recently acknowledged that he specifically peddled the salacious Hunter Biden laptop story to the New York Post because they wouldn’t “spend all the time they could to try to contradict it before they put it out.” ……..
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  152. The current strategy of preventing all progress when you’re out of power is hurting our country.

    And who were the members of the Congressional Cabal who met in a DC restaurant as Obama was sworn in, an resolved to ‘just say no’ to everything Obama? 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  153. Time123 (ca85c9) — 10/21/2020 @ 2:29 pm

    Friend of mine that loves Trump tried to convince me Joe Biden is a pedophile today…guess we have different friends.

    You’ve got good friends. Consider yourself lucky.

    frosty (f27e97)

  154. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/21/2020 @ 2:45 pm

    Giuliani recently acknowledged that he specifically peddled the salacious Hunter Biden laptop story to the New York Post because they wouldn’t “spend all the time they could to try to contradict it before they put it out.”

    That’s just common sense. Why take it to an outlet that will sit on it?

    frosty (f27e97)

  155. To be fair, I also view Bernie as an existential threat as he is similarly ignorant, immune to evidence and potentially aligned with a foreign power. His judgement isn’t erratic like Trump’s but he believes so many untrue things, and thinks so poorly of American and its people, that I turst it to be solidly wrong. In domestic matters that’s merely unfortunate. In an international crisis that could be fatal.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  156. they wouldn’t “spend all the time they could to try to contradict it before they put it out.”

    Witnessing the WaPo take, which was all about reasons it must be wrong, pretty spot on.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  157. snce biden has signed on to bernies’ platform that’s a conern,

    https://meaninginhistory.blogspot.com/2020/10/smoking-gun-burisma-email-released.html#comment-form

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  158. This was brought home to me in 1989. At the end of a business trip I spent a day in Berlin, at the Wall. The evil of that thing is hard to describe…

    Try the Kremlin Wall. Even in 1971, it was literally crumbling. Dashed up to it behind their WW2 war memorial and grabbed a few red brick fragments from the ground and pocketed them before one of the guards tried to chase us away. Still have ’em on display, guarded by =drumroll= an old Britain’s lead figure Soviet soldier.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  159. That’s just common sense. Why take it to an outlet that will sit on it?

    Or perform a modicum of authentication or verification?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  160. It is amazing that all you need is a selfie of Ivanka and Rudy Giuliani will tell you his secrets.

    It’s worse.

    The Borat film proves that all you *really* need are boobs (check), blond hair (check) and a slavic-sounding name (check).

    Dave (1bb933)

  161. @162 It appears the Guardian and every major media outlet just outright lied about the Rudy Giuliani scene.

    whembly (c30c83)

  162. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/21/2020 @ 2:55 pm

    spend all the time they could to try to contradict it before they put it out

    Or perform a modicum of authentication or verification?

    We can talk about either one of those, or both, but they aren’t the same thing.

    frosty (f27e97)

  163. It appears the Guardian and every major media outlet just outright lied about the Rudy Giuliani scene.

    LOL.

    Dave (1bb933)

  164. @165 well… that certainly adds more animus to the conversation. Good job chap!

    whembly (c30c83)

  165. @166

    Wait, so laughing is displaying “animus” now?

    LOL.

    (Oh crap, sorry!)

    The chance that Rudy was reaching for his Toobin is no better than 50/50.

    Dave (1bb933)

  166. LOL

    Dustin (4237e0)

  167. I am almost as big a fan as Sacha Baron Cohen as I am of Trump, so I barely glanced at the Giuliani story on the innernuts. I thought it was an actor playing Giuliani, not Giuliani himself.

    No wonder the Hunter Biden laptop scam was so half-assed. Who falls for the badger game (as harmless as this turned out to be) these days?

    nk (1d9030)

  168. I take the thing about Rudy as retribution against a whistle-blower.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/21/2020 @ 2:34 pm

    SBC is an equal opportunity jerk. He’ll embarrass any fish who will bite the hook.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  169. It is amazing how the media latched onto the Rudy scene. It’s almost like they want people to forget Toobin waxing the dolphin on a live Zoom.

    Can’t make the media look any better at this point, so best to point the Eye of Mordor in a different direction.

    Hoi Polloi (92d467)

  170. It is amazing how the media latched onto the Rudy scene. It’s almost like they want people to forget Toobin waxing the dolphin on a live Zoom.

    Toobin isn’t the President’s lawyer and a top advisor.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  171. And Toobin isn’t currently trying to pedal sex tapes of a political opponent’s child.

    Dave (1bb933)

  172. https://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1319023158712651776

    Watch the sign language interpreter.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  173. Toobin isn’t the President’s lawyer and a top advisor.
    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/21/2020 @ 5:33 pm

    No, but he’s one of them (media). So what better way to steer attention away from a guy who makes money saying Trump has character issues, but fails to clear the beam from his own eye, than bringing up Rudy’s cameo.

    Hoi Polloi (92d467)

  174. Diabolical!

    nk (1d9030)

  175. Poor Rudy, Hoi. All he had to do was not do really stupid stuff and we wouldn’t think he was as stupid as we do.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  176. Watch the sign language interpreter.

    So the sign language gesture for “facepalm” is pretty much what you’d expect…

    Dave (1bb933)

  177. Trump was the first???
    And the question is: How evil?

    In my adult life, yes Sammy, and I can’t quantify evil, I just know it when I see it. There is too much malevolence in his decisions to call it something else.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  178. And the question is: How evil?

    He has violated every Commandment except the Fifth (Honor thy father and thy mother.)

    nk (1d9030)

  179. So if you consider my actual experiences bias so be it but I’m not lying about my experience.

    I never said you were lying. I asked you to consider whether there might be confirmation bias (i.e., favoring information that confirms existing beliefs) since your descriptions are so consistent. Is it really likely that all Trump supporters but one are logical, factual, positive, etc., while everyone else is focused on hating Trump? That strikes me as unlikely. People vary more than that unless the cohorts are very limited.

    DRJ (aede82)

  180. SBC is an equal opportunity jerk. He’ll embarrass any fish who will bite the hook.

    That doesn’t dispute my point.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  181. @182. I never accused you of saying I was lying. I clarified that I related what I actually experienced and I anticipated you would be doubtful of its accuracy because of your own experiences so stated I was not lying. Biased? No. Actually what happened. I know it’s hard to believe Trump supporters aren’t copies of Trump but we aren’t all like him.

    Marci (dddc23)

  182. Why must Trump be given more “civility” — or deference — than he generally extends to other people?

    Because “we’re” better people?

    If the holder of presidential power behaves in a way that is extraordinarily selfish, grossly dishonest, reckless and erratic, etc., it is not “uncivil” for we the citizens to call him out and hold him to account. It is patriotic. I thought Trumpers were all for patriotism.

    Radegunda (1b54d4) — 10/21/2020 @ 12:16 pm

    It’s perfectly acceptable to call out the president for what you believe is wrong. Where a line should be drawn is when you attribute evil motives to him which as a mind reader you were somehow able to know or act in an uncivil manner towards him.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  183. Patrick,

    After reading this post what I believe I have read is it you will continue to call out President Trump for what you consider to be wrong and at the same time you will do it in a civil and respectful manner. Also, you will stop demeaning Trump supporters. Is that right? Or is my understanding of what you wrote about civility between opponents totally wrong?

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  184. When some people say that President Trump is responsible for over 200,000 COVID-19 deaths I don’t think they really understand separation of powers under the US Constitution. For that matter I don’t believe a lot of people in Congress understand separation of powers either.

    Article 1 section 8 and the 16th amendment give limited power to the federal government. Unfortunately the federal government has exceeded its power by doing things not listed in the enumerated powers of the federal government. The federal government is not our nanny and the president is not a dictator. He cannot order the states what they have to do. He can suggest it but he cannot order the states to comply to his will or diktat. Under the US Constitution the president cannot order all citizens of the United States to wear masks or go into lockdown. The president cannot tell the people of the in the United States to take a specific vaccine or any for that matter just as he cannot tell the United States they must use certain drugs to treat COVID-19. Those things are not in his purview. He is the commander in chief, administrator, diplomat, and a few other things of the federal government

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  185. Since the Bible says that we are all created in his image I believe we should treat each other with respect. Except for the news media. We should call them out completely. Also it’s OK to call them a few choice names because they’ve earned it.

    “Journalism is about covering important stories. With a pillow, until they stop moving.”

    — David Burge

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  186. Where a line should be drawn is when you attribute evil motives to him which as a mind reader you were somehow able to know or act in an uncivil manner towards him.

    The problem here is that – being without shame or conscience – Donald Trump proudly proclaims his evil motives, impropriety and sociopathic license to any who will listen, or to read his Twitter feed.

    No mind-reading necessary.

    Dave (1bb933)

  187. The problem here is that – being without shame or conscience – Donald Trump proudly proclaims his evil motives, impropriety and sociopathic license to any who will listen, or to read his Twitter feed.

    No mind-reading necessary.

    Dave (1bb933) — 10/21/2020 @ 11:34 pm

    You can state your disagreement with President Trump without saying any of the above. By saying those things the following is true.

    “well, you can’t be civil because the other side is so bad!”

    I hated about 95% of President Obama’s actions. I believe he doesn’t have a good knowledge of history and was overall a bad president. I never called him names. I never questioned his motives. I never said what he was doing is because he had evil in his heart. That’s the way you do it.

    When President Obama suggested greater transparency in government, like putting all bills on the Internet so the people could review them completely before Congress votes on them. I acknowledged that was a great idea. When his administration turned out to be not so transparent I acknowledged that too.

    You can disagree with a person and not call them names or question their motives without having people believe you think they’re a good person or agree with them. That’s civility.

    Except the news media. We should call them out completely. Also it’s OK to call them a few choice names because they’ve earned it, otherwise not everything you want to say needs or has to be said.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  188. As far as civility is concerned in American politics, it isn’t as time-honored as some might think…

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/21/2020 @ 1:36 pm

    You’re right. Giving opponents unpleasant nicknames isn’t new.

    Jefferson’s folks had been using their own strong campaign tactics in the fight against Adams. Adams was accused of wanting to be a king and starting a dynasty by having his son succeed him as President. He was also accused of being overweight and given the nickname “His Rotundity.”

    And it got worse.

    The bitterness and rivalries seen in the partisan 1796 campaign got worse in the 1800 rematch between Adams and Jefferson. At one point in that race, Jefferson’s supporter, notorious pamphleteer James Calendar, claimed that Adams was a hermaphrodite, while Adams’ people said Jefferson would openly promote prostitution, incest, and adultery.

    The first bitter, contested presidential election takes place

    I’m not saying that incivility is right. I’m agreeing with Kevin that civility in politics is not as old as we think. My personal preference is civility.

    The link button wasn’t working for me so I hand coded the link. I hope I got it right. I wonder if it’s the iOS 14.1 update I applied today that caused the link button to stop working?

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  189. It looks like somethings got added to the end of the link. The link should be:

    https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/on-this-day-the-first-bitter-contested-presidential-election-takes-place

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  190. Where a line should be drawn is when you attribute evil motives to him which as a mind reader you were somehow able to know or act in an uncivil manner towards him.
    Tanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 10/21/2020 @ 10:20 pm

    I agree, and it cannot be stressed enough.

    I am enjoying the soundness of all your comments, Tanny, I thank you for making them.

    felipe (023cc9)

  191. Lol! MY brain thought one word, and my fingers typed another.

    I am enjoying the soundness [tenor] of all your comments, Tanny, I thank you for making them.

    But soundness applies as well.

    felipe (023cc9)

  192. I know it’s hard to believe Trump supporters aren’t copies of Trump but we aren’t all like him.

    Marci

    My point is that people with similar political views aren’t all alike but your experience suggests they are. That strikes me as unlikely.

    By the way, I am curious given your quoted statement, is everyone who votes for Trump a Trump supporter?

    DRJ (aede82)

  193. In fairness, Marci, I realize you are talking about people you know and deal with. We probably do share qualities with folks who live in our communities and share our views. But my experience is that there are factual, positive, etc., folks of all political views.

    DRJ (aede82)

  194. Trump is a walking (with difficulty in elevator shoes) argument against civility. He does not reciprocate. He smells it as a sign of weakness and it emboldens him to more bullying and vituperation. He is only civil to thugs like Putin, Xi, Erdogan, and Kim. And to the odd sailor … very odd.

    nk (1d9030)

  195. This is from Giuliani was mayor (weekly call in show from December 31, 1999 through September 7, 2001)

    http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/rwg/html/radio.html

    This is Giulian now (new show, 3 pm each weekday, rebroadcast at 9 pm)

    https://wabcradio.com/podcast/rudy-giuliani/

    Also this:

    https://wabcradio.com/podcast/uncovering-the-truth-with-rudy-giuliani-maria-ryan

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  196. Tanny O’Haley is correct that incivility in politics is as old as time.

    When I was at UT Austin, I had to take two semesters of American history. Of course I read the assigned textbooks, or skimmed through them actually, because the quizzes and tests were based on them. But what I really wanted to know was actual history. So on the weekends I would go to the Perry Castaneda Library and look up newspapers and journals from whatever period we were studying, because I wanted to know what people were thinking and writing at the time. They’re all on microfilm going back hundreds of years.

    If you think the press is vicious and mendacious now, you should read those articles from way back when. They were so insulting and dehumanizing, it was incredible.

    Here’s the thing. Back in the day, the only means a politician had to get his message out was to give speeches, which required travel that took a long time–in a horse drawn carriage he might be able to go twenty or thirty miles in a day–or pass out pamphlets. It was the parties that printed journals.

    From the beginning, a journalist was a partisan. That is distinct from a reporter for a newspaper, who simply wrote about local events, civic gatherings, marriages, funerals, those sorts of things. There was nothing political about reporting. That became blurred over the years, as reporters began to think of themselves as journalists.

    What has happened since the advent of radio and television is that journalism/reporting has become increasingly vitriolic. And now, in the computer age, it has become infested with conspiracy theories that make no sense, but that spread like wildfire.

    I wonder about the mentality of the modern American. Do you not know your own history?

    By the way, HBO produced a six-episode series on John Adams. It is well worth watching. Did you know that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both died on July 4, exactly 50 years after the Revolution?

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  197. Did you know that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both died on July 4, exactly 50 years after the Revolution?

    I’ve always thought that to be pretty much fiction. Who’s really to say and it is so incredibly convenient. The two old foes, together again in patriotic heaven.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  198. One of the periods that is seldom taught in American history is roughly 1820-1859, and it is fascinating the more I get into it. Not only Jackson and the leadup to Civil War, but the opening of the West, a war of Manifest Destiny, The single-party system fractures, a major party forms and fails, and then 7 presidents, 6 of them terrible, in the 20 year span before Lincoln.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  199. Imagine a period with 2 presidents dying early, 4 others as bad as Trump, and one able guy who only served one term so that he could conquer Mexico. Plus slavery.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  200. 199: Donny Jr. got his dating inspiration from Rudy instead of his dad.

    urbanleftbehind (7d9d99)

  201. Nope, he is his father’s son.

    DRJ (aede82)

  202. Order 66 and Romanovs trending soon one hopes.

    urbanleftbehind (7d9d99)

  203. Lol! MY brain thought one word, and my fingers typed another.

    I am enjoying the soundness [tenor] of all your comments, Tanny, I thank you for making them.

    But soundness applies as well.

    felipe (023cc9) — 10/22/2020 @ 4:22 am

    Either word is a compliment. Thank you.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  204. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson became close friends before we became the United States. However, as someone said “politics ruins everything” and they became bitter enemies. This is the story of Dr. Benjamin Rush who had a dream and because he chose to write to Adams, then Jefferson about the dream they reconciled and became friends once again. They are said to have died 3 hours apart on July 4th, 1826 which was the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.

    Rev. Edward Everett (a U. S. Representative & Senator, Governor, Diplomat, Secretary of State, and President of Harvard) delivered an oration in remembrance of the two:

    Having lived and acted and counseled and dared and risked all, and triumphed and enjoyed together, they have gone together to their great reward. . . . Forgetting the little that had divided them and cherishing the communion of service and peril and success which had united, they walked with honorable friendship the declining pathway of age; and now they have sunk down together in peace into the bosom of a redeemed and grateful country. . . . They were useful, honored, prosperous, and lovely in their lives, and in their deaths they were not divided.

    Benjamin Rush Dream about John Adams and Thomas Jefferson

    I think it was more than a “little” that divided them.

    The link button is working for me again.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  205. I felt a cool, refreshing breeze this morning. I should have guessed that Tanny O’Haley was busy sharing his common sense approach to life and discussions.

    Soldier on, Tanny!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  206. Great to see you Haiku

    Dustin (4237e0)

  207. Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/22/2020 @ 10:45 am

    Wow! Thank you. I’m honored. I believe that you can attribute my current demeanor to age and my wife. When I was 18 my nickname was Sparky. At times my attitude has been “Kill them all and let God sort it out.” Because of my life my thoughts now are that bad people can reform.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  208. Did you know that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both died on July 4, exactly 50 years after the Revolution?

    I had a book – or rather my parents had a book – still have it, it’s in pieces – about U,S. Presidents that went up to the beginning of Eisenhower, and I noticed that they both died in 1826, but I did not notice that they had both died on the same day, and that that day was July 4, and that that was the 50th anniversary of the official date of the Declaration of Independence.

    I had to read that elsewhere many years later.

    By the way, James Monroe also died on July 4 – in 1831.

    James Madison outlived them all, until 1836. He didn’t make it to the 4th of July, though.. He died on June 28.

    Tanny’s link has an error. Richard Rush was never Secretary of State. the next three presidents after Jefferson were all previously Secretary of State. Richard Rush was Attorney General under adison (and abit under Monroe) from 1814 to 1817.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24)

  209. Tanny’s link has an error. Richard Rush was never Secretary of State. the next three presidents after Jefferson were all previously Secretary of State. Richard Rush was Attorney General under adison (and abit under Monroe) from 1814 to 1817.

    Sammy Finkelman (a69e24) — 10/22/2020 @ 12:33 pm

    I went to the link and looked up “Richard“ which came up at one match which states exactly what you said and was not in error.

    “What book is that in your hands?” said I to my son Richard [who later became the Secretary of State under President James Monroe]…

    According to Wikipedia Richard Rush was acting Secretary of State March 10, 1817 – September 22, 1817 under President James Monroe.

    I found it interesting that James Monroe also died on July 4.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  210. Imagine a period with 2 presidents dying early, 4 others as bad as Trump, and one able guy who only served one term so that he could conquer Mexico. Plus slavery.

    This seems a bit harsh.

    Van Buren, Tyler and Buchanan were pretty bad in their policies and leadership, but IIRC only Van Buren was notably corrupt.

    Monroe, Fillmore and Pierce were less egregiously bad than the previous three IMO.

    Jackson was certainly a mixed bag, with an authoritarian streak, and Polk was a war-monger, but they were both effective and I wouldn’t compare them to Trump.

    Only Quincy Adams and the two dead Whigs took positions that I think I would defend.

    It is a fascinating period though. I enjoyed

    What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815 – 1848

    and

    The Rise and Fall of the American Whig Party

    Dave (1bb933)


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