Patterico's Pontifications

10/7/2020

Vice-Presidential Debate Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 6:09 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Here we go. Mike Pence and Kamala Harris are squaring off tonight in the only vice-presidential debate which is live-streaming on CNN.

FYI:

Expectations are high for Harris because of her background as a prosecutor and the skills she showed when she aggressively questioned Trump’s nominees as a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. But before the primaries, when she was running for the Democratic nomination, she sometimes delivered uneven performances on the debate stage.

Pence, a former radio host, is one of the Trump administration’s most effective communicators. He has also shown a far greater capacity than the President to speak with empathy and compassion for those who have been afflicted with Covid-19.

The vice president’s main objective on Wednesday is to portray Harris as one of the most liberal members of that body, aiming to paint her as a vice presidential contender whose views are out of step with most Americans and someone who would steer Biden toward socialism. Pence also hopes to portray the White House’s actions on the coronavirus in a positive light — from the distribution of aid and personal protective equipment to states, to the efforts to develop a vaccine and therapeutics to treat the virus in record time.

Did you know… oh, wait, how could you have known??

The White House’s chief of security has been hospitalized with COVID-19 since September, Bloomberg reports. Crede Bailey is reportedly “gravely ill” but contracted the coronavirus before the Rose Garden event celebrating the nomination of Judge Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme Court, which has been linked to a widening outbreak. The White House did not disclose his infection or hospitalization. Bailey’s job is largely comprised of approving credentials and security clearances for those accessing the White House.

You bet Harris is going to bring up Covid, and will likely hold no punches when directing her ire at her opponent, who just also happens to also be…Chair of White House Coronavirus Task Force.

–Dana

242 Responses to “Vice-Presidential Debate Open Thread”

  1. Hoo boy.

    Dana (292df6)

  2. Race Bannon mentions Biden’s plagiarism.

    God bless him.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  3. The rude Kamala surfaces. Does Kamala own a dress or only wear HRC hand-me-downs?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  4. Kamala calls Covid America’s ‘greatest’ failure.

    She musta missed 9/11– and hasn’t read the Pentagon Papers.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  5. Television is a cool medium.

    Kamala is coming across committee/prosecutor hot. Pence comes across cool and smooth on it. That’s his media experience.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  6. Kamala calls Covid America’s ‘greatest’ failure.

    She musta missed 9/11– and hasn’t read the Pentagon Papers.
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/7/2020 @ 6:16 pm

    Her friend said 9/11 was just some people who did something.

    Hoi Polloi (acf0e3)

  7. Kamala calls Covid America’s ‘greatest’ failure.

    She musta missed 9/11– and hasn’t read the Pentagon Papers.

    Or considered the War on Poverty or the War on Drugs.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  8. Kamala did not answer the question about presidential disability.

    Just recited her resume an shoveled ‘malarkey.’ She never answered.

    Page should have followed up immediately and asked her to answer.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  9. I can’t decide who disgusts me more, the narcissistic panderer or the gaslighting apologist for the liar-in-chief. I’m switching back to the ballgame.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  10. I’ll have to enjoy the debate vicariously at the moment, I am in no mood to be fair to anyone, so I’m going to wait to maybe watch the replay later tonight.

    Though I will say that Covid is probably one of America’s more deadly failures.

    Nic (896fdf)

  11. Kamala’s voice is quivering. She’s not-ready-for-prime-time.

    Pence has won this already. So damn smooth on camera. And I don’t even like him.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  12. Nice pivot from healthcare to taxes…Where is the moderator?

    Oh, that’s right. She’s in the bag.

    Hoi Polloi (acf0e3)

  13. Hahaha. Joe has been transparent? He didn’t even answer if he’d pack the courts.

    Hoi Polloi (acf0e3)

  14. Look at the images– Kamala fidgets too much. Pence is aircraft carrier-at-anchor-calm.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  15. How did this woman get elected a U.S. Senator?? She acts more like an elementary school teach.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  16. She lies, he nails her. Good for him.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  17. The tuition isn’t free, Harris. Someone is paying for it. That would be the taxpayers you plan on fleecing.

    Hoi Polloi (acf0e3)

  18. She’s lying like a rug. Biden said he would end fracking.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  19. Not watching. But, yes, Pence has had four years plus of practice lying, spinning, and apologizing for Trump, so I expect he will do well.

    nk (1d9030)

  20. Hahahaha. Joe Biden is going to raise your taxes. Look before you leap, Harris.

    Hoi Polloi (acf0e3)

  21. Does Kamala own a dress or only wear HRC hand-me-downs?

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/7/2020 @ 6:14 pm

    How old are you???

    Dana (292df6)

  22. Biden’sfuture is a pine box; You want this woman to be America’s futur as your president????

    So many hot flashes tonight from her– Menopause?

    My God. And she failed t answer the direct question on presidential disability.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  23. Moderator shushes Pence way more than Harris. But hey – remember, the media is not biased.

    Hoi Polloi (acf0e3)

  24. @21. Old enough to know a woman dressing like a man doesn’t make her one.

    Even Thatcher was confident enough to wear a dress.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  25. This is what you think is fair

    https://mobile.twitter.com/seanmdav/status/1314017072914092032

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  26. Joe Biden as said he will ban fracking. She’s lying.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  27. God. I came to this thread hoping to see intelligent insight… and instead I got bombarded with DCSCA’s wannabe-Mad Men Bogart-nuggets.

    Bye.

    Leviticus (547ff7)

  28. Kamala did not answer the question about presidential disability.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  29. @21 apparently so old he thinks a woman wearing pants is mannish.

    Nic (896fdf)

  30. Pence has won this.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  31. 29. Which makes her a slacker. 😉

    Thatcher kicked ass– and wore a dress.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  32. Kamala Harris is rolling all over Mike Pence, who doesn’t answer many questions, and wastes time with polite irrelevancies.

    Mike Pence got in a few good replies, but it struck me that he was surprised by the attacks. And when he did effectively reply, he interrupted.

    Pence has a number of prepared statements.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  33. Biden called China our ‘competitor'; Russia our ‘adversary.’

    This should have been an easy one for Kamala. Instead: a word salad.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  34. This woman has a very good chance of being your president if Biden wins.

    Frightening.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  35. You bet Harris is going to bring up Covid, and will likely hold no punches when directing her ire at her opponent, who just also happens to also be…Chair of White House Coronavirus Task Force.

    She had several lines of attack, mostly false.

    One false thing Pence didn’t answer, almost leaving the impression it ws true. She said that Trump and Pence were warned on January 28 how bad Covid was and didn’t tell the American people because Trump didn;t want to panic anyone. That is a dxxx lie.

    What they were told, if I am correct, was that this was the most serious threat facing the United States.

    They were NOT </b? told that it would infect many people in the United States because the position of Dr Fauci and others was that they could keep it out of the United States. When they did sy that they couldn;t keep it out, Pence said, they told the public.

    They were NOT told that it was a very serious disease that could kill a lot of people, because everybody who was following the news already knew it. They were told that by ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, their local newspaper, magazines like TIME, Business Week, the Economist, The Week.

    They didn’t need Donald Trump to tell them that.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  36. @32. Except she’s not.

    Kamala has lied like rug–it’s astonishing- and worse, completely evaded the direct question about presidential disability by reciting her resume.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  37. This woman has a very good chance of being your president if Biden wins.

    Frightening.

    I’m not going to let it dominate my life.

    nk (1d9030)

  38. Has Kamala ever ‘served in the military’?

    Nope.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  39. @37. She may give you no choice.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  40. 4. DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/7/2020 @ 6:16 pm

    She musta missed 9/11– and hasn’t read the Pentagon Papers.

    She missed World War II. And disarmament.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  41. The Supreme Court – let;s see if Pence will get in the question of court packing.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  42. Biden’sfuture is a pine box;

    Your despicable wishcasting doesn’t make it so.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  43. Not only that, Mr. Pence…. the competent and capable Amy Coney Barrett WEARS A DRESS.

    Soon she’ll wear robe.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  44. Kamala did not answer the question about presidential disability.

    Pence didn’t either.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  45. @42. Despicable? Reality bites: tick-tock-tick-tock. Biden be 78 years old next month.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  46. @44. Yes he did. And he already as the job as VEEP, Sammy.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  47. One point Mike Pence got in, but only by interrupting, is that she couldn’t say that Biden would not raise taxes on people earning under $400,000 a year if he would sign a repeal of the 2017 tac cuts. He said it saved lower income people, $2,000 a year. She denied it.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  48. Boom.

    Court packing.

    Answer Kamala.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  49. Pence did get in the question of court packing.

    Kamala Harris: In 1864, Abraham Lincoln was up for re-election but Honest Abe did not appoint a replacement to a Supreme Court vacancy that opened up 27 days before the election.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  50. No real man is disheartened at the thought of a woman as leader, DCSCA.

    Leviticus (547ff7)

  51. Yes or no, Kamala.

    She never answered.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  52. KMl hrrs: Let’s talk about packing the court. She witnessed appointments to lower courts by ideologues substandard.

    She called something that is not packing, packing.

    Also said not one of 50 appointments to federal court of appeals was black.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  53. @50. Thought you left?!

    Nikki isn’t running, L.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  54. @49. She never answer the question, Sammy.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  55. But she repeats that trash from the atlantic which you never corrected.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  56. This woman is so out of her league at this level; “make a list, form a committee.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  57. No wonder her presidential campaign flamed out.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  58. Was that a fly on Pence’s snow cap? Couldn’t see it on Kamala mane.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  59. Good answer about police by Mike Pence although it may not be clear.

    KH falls back on her resume as a prosecutor. Some other things, some half true.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  60. Pence is prepared on some questions.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  61. @42. Despicable?

    Yeah, despicable. That you have to be told is sad but unsurprising. Why even pretty it up with “future” and “pine box?” Why not just say, “He’s gonna die soon, but not soon enough. Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!!”

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  62. OMG. The work of Kamala Harris as AG of CA is NOT a model for what America needs to do.

    No. No. No.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  63. 54. DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/7/2020 @ 7:14 pm

    @49. She never answer the question, Sammy.

    She, or rather the committee of people helping her came up wiih a nice retort to a different point: That when a Supreme Court vacancy opened up in an election year, presidents always nomiated a replacement, ad he was almost always confirmed if the president’s party had a majority in the Senate.

    Abraham Lincoln didn’t! Said Kamala. Now that;s worth trying to fact check.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  64. @61. lurker, YOU said this: “He’s gonna die soon, but not soon enough. Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!!”

    Not I.

    But if you believe a 78 year old w/a history of multiple brain surgeries and needs time off every other day is in his prime, by all means vote for him.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  65. I’m just popping in to thank Mr. Patterico for his reflective remarks the last time I was in. This election is making people pit family against family. I don’t want to be a part of that so I will stay away till after the election.

    But listening to Ms. Harris, she is lying and dissembling every single time she opens her mouth. And we all expect she will be President if Biden wins. Can you live with that?

    Have a good night.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  66. @63. Pence nailed her– she didn’t answer the question and he told her so to her face.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  67. “One of the reasons Joe decided to run?” Kamala?!?! Charlottesville?

    Gee, JoeyBee said it was the only reason.

    Malarkey. Do a search on Neo-Nazi groups in Delaware and yes–Scranton.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  68. Second Lady Pence wears a dress, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  69. FOX: “Mike Pence had a very good night tonight.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  70. @61. lurker, YOU said this: “He’s gonna die soon, but not soon enough. Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!!”

    Not I.

    I know. I’m just helping the subtext-challenged.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  71. @70. Don’t. You’re not good at trying to put words in other people’s mouth or doing their thinking for them. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  72. Pence absolutely destroyed Harris on data points. Each lied. His were of omission, hers were flat out denials of her own words, and Biden’s. She tried to get away with her own facts. She got caught. Repeatedly.

    The overall impact will be negligible.

    Page’s moderation was outrageously slanted as to topic and the characterization of the topics.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  73. Pence needed to stop the hemorrhaging of ladies preferring anyone but Trump by 40+ points, he didn’t.

    Talking about low energy, he was low energy.

    This didn’t change a thing, so Trump being behind by 10-15 points is still 10-15 points.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  74. On CBS: The reason for the talk about fracking was Pennsylvania.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  75. Finally, the fly got bored and left Pence to more exciting environs.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  76. @75. Race Bannon abandoned. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  77. Luntz flatly declares Pence the winner in his “undecideds’ panel as she “agitated” them significantly. The first estimation of speaking time I have seen had it 38 minutes by Harris, 35 by Pence.

    Pence won.

    Big whoop, right? Only if the seeds planted end up bearing fruit. The cognoscenti are super skeptical they have time to germinate. So am I.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  78. Harris didn’t need to hit a home run. She hit plenty of singles.

    Pence needed to hit a home run. He hit plenty of singles.

    Dave (1bb933)

  79. Col Klink: don’t laugh. The fly just signed a lucrative book deal.

    qdpsteve (8d496a)

  80. Harris didn’t need to hit a home run. She hit plenty of singles.

    Pence needed to hit a home run. He hit plenty of singles.

    That’s the same analogy I used with my wife.

    If you’re down by 2 touchdowns, shooting a layup doesn’t help.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  81. She took all the cheap shots you have seeved up for three years.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  82. She took all the cheap shots you have seeved up for three years.

    Sure that’s funny, she was so much more rude than Trump last week, totally.

    The last time a VP debate mattered was…never, and this didn’t change a thing.

    This election is about the job Trump is doing, and he’s still doing it just as badly, worse actually, than at any time in the last 3 years, worst president in the history of America. Pence and Harris don’t matter.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  83. Abraham Lincoln didn’t! Said Kamala. Now that;s worth trying to fact check.

    Done:

    It was impossible to miss how Kamala Harris, like Joe Biden, refused to answer questions about their plans to expand the Supreme Court. But she also misrepresented history.

    Harris claimed at the VP debate that Abraham Lincoln refused to nominate a candidate for Chief Justice in October 1864 because “Honest Abe said, it’s not the right thing to do” and wanted the people to vote first.

    Lincoln, of course, said no such thing. He sent no nominee to the Senate in October 1864 because the Senate was out of session until December. He sent a nominee the day after the session began, and Salmon P. Chase was confirmed the same day. And Lincoln wanted to dangle the nomination before Chase and several other potential candidates because he wanted them to campaign for him. Lincoln’s priority was winning the election, which was necessary to win the war — and he filled the vacancy at the first possible instant.

    Kamala Harris is simply inventing history.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/kamala-harris-dishonesty-on-abe-lincoln/

    Bored Lawyer (58a164)

  84. I found both of them thoroughly unlikable and unimpressive. That probably makes me about the 330 millionth American whose opinion is exactly the same after the debate as it was before.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  85. A fundamental question side stepped over the future of this country.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  86. Mike Pence’s fly has 50,000 Twitter followers.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  87. No real man is disheartened at the thought of a woman as leader, DCSCA.

    Leviticus (547ff7) — 10/7/2020 @ 7:11 pm

    And, just what do you know of real manhood?

    Real men don’t get their panties in a bunch over Donald Trump’s asshattery. Real men don’t claim to stand against and then take up with the babykillers and the taxers and the regulators and the marxists and the anarchists and the courtpackers because…butthurt. Because…only the Cretin could win against those they so vehemently opposed, after losers McCain and Romney could not get it done.

    matador@gmail.com (0284e8)

  88. I don’t even like Pence but he clearly kicked Kamala’s pants-suited butt.

    “Dress” for success, dear. Thatcher did.

    What a flame-out. The videotapes of her contradictions are already getting aired. Definitely not ready for prime time and showed why her presidential campaign fizzled. Thing is, though, she’ll get a kind of do-over to ‘bat clean-up’ during televised ACB judiciary committee hearings where she can play prosecutor.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  89. He sent a nominee the day after the session began, and Salmon P. Chase was confirmed the same day

    What, no hearings? No posturing for the press? No condemnations? It’s almost like they took their Constitutional duties more seriously 150 years ago.

    Bored Lawyer (58a164)

  90. The debate was an instructional video on how to not answer a question.

    norcal (a5428a)

  91. @87 –
    Real men don’t believe that only cretins can be winners.
    Rational people are not certain that Trump would have done better than McCain against Obama in 2008 or better than Romney against Obama in 2012.

    People of sound mind do not believe that Trump has done better than either McCain or Romney would have done in the presidency.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  92. @87 Real men have enough confidence to show respect to both themselves and others. They don’t need to put other people down to raise themselves up or to pretend accomplishments they don’t have. Real men have values, know what those values are, and act in ways that align with those values. Real men have the guts to do the hard work to get things done, not just squawk about them on twitter. Real men don’t need people to tell them how wonderful they are all the time or to have yes men who never contradict them. McCain and Romney, for all their faults, have more “real manliness” in their little fingers than Trump does in his entire body.

    Some people might confuse bluster with manliness. Some people don’t.

    Nic (896fdf)

  93. @87 Only the Cretin would use professional wrestling rhetoric to win over rubes in the primary. Only the Cretin was willing to appeal to America’s basest instincts.

    norcal (a5428a)

  94. Pence held his own. A change from holding Trump’s.

    nk (1d9030)

  95. Trump is about to become a winner a al Charlie Sheen, and get fired from his own show.

    norcal (a5428a)

  96. al a

    norcal (a5428a)

  97. I expect we’re going to have any number of Trump supporters, in or out of matador pants, coming over here to win our hearts and minds with their reasoned debate and civil discourse for the next four weeks.

    nk (1d9030)

  98. In fact, I can just see the headline once the results of the election are in. AMERICA TO TRUMP: YOU’RE FIRED!

    norcal (a5428a)

  99. @92. Real men are just that; real men. Dressing like one doesn’t make you one.

    Ask Hilary Rodham Clinton.

    Or Kamala Harris.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  100. I’ll be pining for the good old Obama days when Biden is president. And I’ll be pining for the good old Biden days when Harris is president. And the worst day of Harris’ presidency will still be better than the best day of Trump’s.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  101. @79. The fly just signed a lucrative book deal.

    Lorne Michaels already gave it a buzz– it’ll be guest-hosting Saturday Night Live in two weeks.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  102. @99 I recommend not becoming a women’s fashion merchandiser.

    Nic (896fdf)

  103. @100 Unless she starts packing the court.

    norcal (a5428a)

  104. @102 :)

    norcal (a5428a)

  105. And the worst day of Harris’ presidency will still be better than the best day of Trump’s.

    Be careful what you wish for.

    Because no.

    It won’t.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  106. The junior high that my mother attended (in the 40s) was mentioned in the debate. It was a Springville Junior High student who submitted the last question.

    norcal (a5428a)

  107. Nathan VanderKlippe
    @nvanderklippe

    China censored Pence’s comments on China. Signal returned when Harris began talking again. [photo]

    https://twitter.com/nvanderklippe/status/1314020892742090753?s=20
    __ _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  108. Since Trump now says his getting COVID was “a blessing from God”, are we allowed to agree with him?

    Dave (1bb933)

  109. “Real men have values, know what those values are, and act in ways that align with those values.”

    Yes, Yes, Yes!

    And they don’t act out in ways that say, forget what I’ve proclaimed for years. I can no longer believe or support it, because pottymouth said bad things. He hurt my feelings and offended me. so…

    What, real man, do you value? Words and manners, or, our way of life?

    Matador (0284e8)

  110. any number of Trump supporters, in or out of matador pants,

    Again, you are confused. I do not support Trump. I know he is simply the jammed rifle, on which is mounted the bayonet which repels just enough to extend the fight.

    But if you tell your lies long and loud enough, your butthurt friends here will clap.

    Matador (0284e8)

  111. People of sound mind do not believe that Trump has done better than either McCain or Romney would have done in the presidency.

    Well, we know how McCain gave the thumbs down on Obamacare. And we know how Romney governed in MA.

    So, yours is optimistic conjecture, at best.

    Matador (0284e8)

  112. @92.

    Levitiwuss wasn’t talking about Trump. He pumped at DSCSA, railing on, casting aspersion on his real manliness.

    We all know Trumps faults.

    Deflector.

    Matador (0284e8)

  113. @100 Unless she starts packing the court.

    Meh. If she does the Dems will regret it. Activist SCOTUS has been the greatest organizing tool the Right has ever had. When ACB finally establishes RW control, I think conservatives will be in for the letdown of the dog that catches the car. And they won’t be happy campers when their precious organizing tool goes to the Dems.

    Sure, I’d like to see Roe overturned. But when that happens, the grass roots energy shifts Left. They get the cause to organize around. And for what? In most states abortion stays legal. And those that do end it will find out abortifacients are harder to eliminate than clinics. Gay marriage? Not going anywhere. Neither is Obamacare.

    If the Dems have a brain in their head, they’ll leave SCOTUS alone and never lose another election.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  114. Gay marriage? Not going anywhere. Neither is Obamacare.

    Tis what the Tories said about King George. Not up for the fight? Obviously, a Bush-McCain-Romney SUPPORTER!

    Yield, yield, yield, yield, yield! If we just give more ground, eventually they’ll go home and leave us alone.

    mmmmmmmkay.

    Matador (0284e8)

  115. The fly was satan giving pence instructions or maybe it was just attracted to poopheads.

    asset (084973)

  116. Tis what the Tories said about King George.

    In point of fact, King George didn’t go anywhere. He remained on the English throne for close to four decades after Washington defeated Cornwallis at Yorktown. For your response to make any sense in the context of the comment to what you are responding, you would have to be advocating a similar separation through extralegal means, e.g. secession or revolution.

    Demosthenes (5f62f9)

  117. The fly was satan giving pence instructions or maybe it was just attracted to poopheads.

    I’m envisioning an SNL skit where it’s Alec Baldwin in a bug suit.

    Dave (1bb933)

  118. @108. Shorter: ‘Christ Almighty!’ 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  119. In point of fact, King George didn’t go anywhere.

    Now, really, wordsmith.

    King George’s authority and influence over the victorious Colonies went home directly.

    Who cares that he held on, delusional in his belief that he still ruled the greatest empire in the world.

    He was defeated, and his rule sent packing, by the good fight.

    Matador (0284e8)

  120. @115. Satan?

    Try David Hedison… and we know what he was saying:

    “Help me! Help me!” – Andre Delambre [David Hedison] ‘The Fly’ 1958

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  121. @102. I recommend not becoming a women’s fashion merchandiser.

    I recommend ‘My Fair Lady’ 😉

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doz5w2W-jAY

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  122. I kinda feel sorry for Pence. VPs are not free agents and having to defend the increasingly chaotic administration, which he really has no control over is a thankless task. And I am sure he was not thanked.

    Then again he took the job. I guess someone had to and I’m glad it wasn’t a real toady like Christie. I just wish he’d been a lot better at damage control.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  123. @122. Pains me to say it but Pence did a good job tonight; Kamala was too hot; flamed out. She’s out of her league for this gig.

    It wouldn’t matter if Hidin’ Biden was 47 or even 61. But 78 going in w/multiple-brain surgeries… forget it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  124. For your response to make any sense in the context of the comment to what you are responding, you would have to be advocating a similar separation through extralegal means, e.g. secession or revolution.

    While I absolutely believe in the right of orderly, legislative and peaceable secession, that is not at all what I am saying. Your leap is truly Beldarian.

    I am saying that, within the law and our political process, there is still ample opportunity to persuade and dissuade. It is not a forgone conclusion that all is lost. But it will take unity and effort and risk to our own situations.

    Of course, we may eventually get to the point that our forefathers reached. Where reason and diplomacy are no longer equally respected by opposing schools of thought. At that time, we’ll have to ask ourselves if only a select group, almost three hundred years ago, could be wise enough to know when to say when.

    Matador (0284e8)

  125. Advocating a revolution is irresponsible, to say the least, especially from anyone who is a Trump fan. The Founders would be repelled by Trump.

    norcal (a5428a)

  126. Though I prefer Dem policies I do not like Harris. She’s an empty suit. Pandering and shallow. Personally Pence is on point. Prepared and courteous, interrupting notwithstanding. I like the dude. He’s a throwback to a different kind of politician. I especially liked his answer about Americans engaging in free and open disagreement. We need that and that stuff would send a thrill up my leg all day long. But. I don’t like his having sold out to Trump and all that comes with that particularly the “Russian hoax” talking points and avoiding the issue of peaceful transfer of power. Trump’s a threat and as much as I like his #2, I gotta go for Biden this time.

    JRH (52aed3)

  127. Since Trump now says his getting COVID was “a blessing from God”, are we allowed to agree with him?
    Dave (1bb933) — 10/7/2020 @ 10:12 pm

    Please do, sir. Otherwise, the irony would be lost.

    felipe (023cc9)

  128. err, not interrupting but going over time.

    JRH (52aed3)

  129. @108. Shorter: ‘Christ Almighty!’ 😉
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/7/2020 @ 11:51 pm

    Even shorter: “non servium.”

    felipe (023cc9)

  130. Hanoi Janes pontificating posse is quite telling.

    mg (8cbc69)

  131. According to a poll by SSRS Research that CNN published

    59% of respondents thought Harris did a better job
    38% of respondents thought Pence did a better job
    3% were undecided.

    Favorable opinion for Harris went up 7 points from 56% to 63% and her unfavorables went down by the same amount 41 to 34%
    Favorable opinion for Pence was unchanged by the debate and stayed at 41%.

    Harris won for every sub group (Race, Gender, Income, Education etc) except for Non-college educated white. She seems to have crushed it with women.

    Based on the popular opinion this debate was a clean win for Harris.
    The change in her favorable is probably the most important part IMO.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  132. And just like that, Trump makes any positive narrative coming out of Pence’s serviceable debate performance (the only story related to their campaign in the last ten days that wasn’t a disaster) into old news…

    Trump had to be upset that Pence was getting much more positive reviews than he did…so he took care of it.

    Dave (1bb933)

  133. He lost the first one and is afraid of getting beaten again. He’d rather just bloviate about how good he did then give people another opportunity to draw their own conclusion. It’s a smart play if he’s convinced he can’t win. But since he’s losing badly in the poling he might want to take a chance to shake things up.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  134. @135, your take is probably more accurate. I doubt he cares about how ‘team Trump’ does nearly as much as how he does personally. And not being talked about is the worst thing that can happen to him.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  135. Trump’s campaign manager says the germ-infested president will do a rally instead of the debate…

    Dave (1bb933)

  136. *germ-infested campaign manager

    Dave (1bb933)

  137. So it’s the new one? Not one of the old ones that currently in police custody? He’s had so many and they’re all so disease ridden it’s hard to keep them straight.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  138. Trump always runs away.

    nk (1d9030)

  139. @138, makes sense, he get’s attention without having to face the terrifying debater that is Joe Biden. LMAO

    A virtual setting would probably favor trump.
    -Would be harder to connect with the audience which is a Biden strength.
    -Everyone looks a little more stilted and awkward on video conf. Which supports the Biden has lost it narrative.
    -It would force discipline on Trump, which could make him appear more in control of himself and presidential while giving Biden more opportunity to embarrass himself.
    -It provides more opportunities to cheat and therefore more conspiracy theories for Trump to push.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  140. his bone spurs were a blessing from god too mr nk

    Dave (1bb933)

  141. @138, makes sense, he [gets] attention without having to face the terrifying debater that is Joe Biden. LMAO

    Mami cariño. Mother’s love. The mean kids pantsed him and ate his lunch, and he needs to be hugged and stroked. And it’s funny when Biden does it, but it’s not funny at all when Putin and Xi Jinping do it. The sissy-boy has to go.

    nk (1d9030)

  142. And it’s funny when Biden does it, but it’s not funny at all when Putin and Xi Jinping do it. The sissy-boy has to go.

    I would like to see evidence that Biden will put Putin and Xi in their place. Show your work.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  143. I thought snakes usually made quick work of flies. Just sayin.

    noel (9fead1)

  144. It’s not Biden’s turn at bat yet. Right now, we’re still watching Trump swinging and missing or hitting foul balls.

    nk (1d9030)

  145. I think that’s geckos, noel.

    nk (1d9030)

  146. Toad?

    noel (9fead1)

  147. It’s not Biden’s turn at bat yet

    Surely you can find evidence from his eight years as VP and 47 years in the Senate, including his time on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

    I know he talks a lot, especially about push up contests and being an Irish Catholic from Scranton, which sends shivers down the spine of all the non-Irish Catholics outside of Scranton.

    But aside from that, some evidence that he is going to handle Putin and Xi. It should not be hard to find.

    Will we be gassing up the F-35s in January?

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  148. I would like to see evidence that Biden will put Putin and Xi in their place. Show your work.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 10/8/2020 @ 6:21 am

    All Joe’s ever had to do before was talk, so there’s really no proof he will be a great president. There is only proof, hundreds of thousands of coffins, that Trump is the worst one we’ve ever had.

    Instead of showing our work to a Trump fan that Trump isn’t this great guy, let’s do our work by voting him out of office.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  149. Instead of showing our work to a Trump fan that Trump isn’t this great guy, let’s do our work by voting him out of office.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 10/8/2020 @ 6:44 am

    Trump will most likely get voted out; can we then return to normalcy when it comes to COVID? Can we then ask why Cuomo forced sick elderly patients back to their nursing homes, only to spread COVID and kill over 20,000 elderly New Yorkers?

    Or is this all Trump’s fault?

    I thought you guys did nuance? No?

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  150. Or is this all Trump’s fault?

    Ask Trump and he never takes responsibility and has done perfectly. As those coffins and there’s just silence because there’s a dead American inside.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  151. Trump is pu$$ying out of debate #2.

    Paul Montagu (32958f)

  152. What a coward. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a presidential candidate punk out of a debate before.

    It’s kinda like how most of his supporters get really pissed if you ask them if they are Trump supporters. They say they demand you stop calling them Trump supporters, then explain why the support Trump.

    Trump has really taught a lot of people to be weaker.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  153. On CBS this morning: Trump said he was cured “without evidence” A New York Times newspaper headline story said “without proof.”

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  154. Ask Trump and he never takes responsibility and has done perfectly. As those coffins and there’s just silence because there’s a dead American inside.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 10/8/2020 @ 6:51 am

    But I asked you. Are all the death’s Trump’s fault? Even the 20k+ who died thanks to Cuomo’s orders? If so, why?

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  155. The Federal debate commssion said the debate Oct 15 will be virtual. (it comes one day after the maximum quarantine period for Donald Trump ends if he continues to test negative.)

    Trump says, if so, he won’t attend because they could cut off his mike and they are changing the rules. He may hold a rally, instead..

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  156. David Daleiden
    @daviddaleiden
    ·
    I really felt how much @KamalaHarris values “great investigative journalism” when her 11 armed CA DOJ agents were traipsing through my apartment, seizing my undercover footage but ignoring high-dollar invoices for fetal body parts. #VPDebate
    __ _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  157. You see felipe – it was “a blessing from God”!

    :)

    Dave (1bb933) — 10/8/2020 @ 5:21 am

    Ha!

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  158. Troll-la-la-la, la-la. Biden’s Presidency is still speculative, but the stench of the unflushed toilet which is Trump has nearly made the house which is America uninhabitable. Let’s flush that toilet and open a window for some fresh air.

    nk (1d9030)

  159. Wait! It’s gonna back-up! You need a plunger, first.

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  160. 158. Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 10/8/2020 @ 7:02 am

    Are all the death’s Trump’s fault?

    If you believe that Trump could have kept it out of the country, or reduced its spread (more than it was reduced – Pence claimed it could have been 2 million and they were told that if they did what [Dr. Fauci] recommended t would be 200,000.)

    They offer no explanation of how Trump could have done better, except to say that (some) other western industrialized countries, including Canada, did better.

    But Kamala Harris did not explain what it was that Canada did differently. Canada had a great death toll in nursing homes, too.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  161. Who, here, was ever going to vote for Biden because Andrew Cuomo is the governor of New York? Show of hands?

    nk (1d9030)

  162. 155. Dustin (4237e0) — 10/8/2020 @ 6:56 am

    What a coward. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a presidential candidate punk out of a debate before.

    He admitted (aafer describing Zoom as bad in general) that what it was is that he wouldn’t be able to interrupt or talk past when the moderator said his time was up.

    Democrats are better at that, because for one thing, they rehearsed.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  163. Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 10/8/2020 @ 6:39 am

    Surely you can find evidence from his eight years as VP and 47 years in the Senate, including his time on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

    Biden spent 36 years in the Senate (exactly six terms, although he was re-elected to a 7th in 2008 – in Delaware, like in Texas, you can run for Congress and for president or vice president at the same time)and 8 years as Vice President, for a total of 44 years. They get the extra thrree years by continuing even after he left office. I guess they are referring to getting money from the federal government. He has a pension. (Biden was also on the New Castle City Council for two years before he was elected in 1972 to the United States Senate, but they’re not counting that or else they would have said 46 years.)

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  164. Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 10/8/2020 @ 7:18 am

    I stand corrected. Obviously, 36 years in the Senate is clearly not enough time to do something about Russia and China.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  165. Can we then ask why Cuomo forced sick elderly patients back to their nursing homes, only to spread COVID and kill over 20,000 elderly New Yorkers?
    Or is this all Trump’s fault?
    I thought you guys did nuance? No?

    Cuomo gets blame for waiting too long on mitigation, and he gets blame for his decisions on nursing homes, so Cuomo gets blame for a significant share of the 33,356 who died in his state.
    But Cuomo only runs a state, Trump runs an entire country. By his lying, his botched testing, his lack of planning, his lack of listening to his experts, his exhorting governors to reopen prematurely, his flouting CDC guidance on masks (which started April 3rd), his pedldling “game changer” drugs that have no scientific backup, his constant downtalking, he’s mostly responsible for the Americans who have died since Memorial Day. Since June 1st, 106,129 Americans have perished from the virus, and most of those are on him.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  166. Read this: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/10/president-trump-health-insurance-covid/616627/

    What will be funny is if Trump and his medical team go to prison for insurance fraud if it turns our he faked the Covid. Which he likely did. It’s what he would do.

    nk (1d9030)

  167. I stand corrected. Obviously, 36 years in the Senate is clearly not enough time to do something about Russia and China.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 10/8/2020 @ 7:33 am

    360 years isn’t enough time to do something about those countries because the senate is a legislative body comprised of like a bunch of people who disagree, and it was designed to slow change.

    On the other hand, Trump’s handed China and Russia a lot of wins. Trump even offered to defend China’s concentration camps and kissed commie ass when praising the Tienanmen Square massacre. And you know, that collusion thing y’all keep pretending didn’t happen.

    Biden ain’t the cure. He’s just the sorry price we have to pay to get rid of the worst president we’ve ever had.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  168. He admitted (aafer describing Zoom as bad in general) that what it was

    Sammy, you make a good point, but I don’t take Trump at his word. There could be a number of reasons Trump punked out. One might just be that the test to get on the stage would reveal information about Trump’s recent COVID nonsense. What if nk’s right? Then Trump can’t let anyone know by taking a test.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  169. But I asked you. Are all the death’s Trump’s fault? Even the 20k+ who died thanks to Cuomo’s orders? If so, why?

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 10/8/2020 @ 7:02 am

    If it is theoretically possible for Trump to be a little worse, that means his critics are idiots!

    You’re going to need to show your work. Why is this standard appropriate? Did Trump screw this up? Absolutely. Did he lie and lie? Yep. Did it cause huge scores of deaths, and the crisis reached hundreds of thousands, when we can see from the world that was totally not necessary? Of course it did. Does Trump even today happily make things worse to compare mask wearing to cowardice and domination? Yep! He doesn’t care if you die, so long as he wins.

    I know to a lot of people this is just debate theater but think about it. You have ever reason to have contempt for Biden, skepticism he’s up to the task, but don’t pretend you’re the grand inquisitor and because you deem it, the standard for having a problem with Trump is to prove something 200,000 times. It is only because of Trump that this number is being said. You probably know it, on account of the extreme argument you’re attempting.

    This is just a conversation between people who probably agree on 99% of stuff. I want the budget balanced and the federal government shrunk, the fat cut, the corrupt brought to justice, bla bla bla. We want the same stuff. I recognized Trump was going to make it worse. I’m sorry that I was right. I’m sorrier that this doesn’t even really matter in context of what Trump’s failures have done to hundreds of thousands of people.

    Let’s just get rid of him as soon as possible. Let’s trade this Chrysler in for any Honda on the lot.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  170. It was probably the parents of those losers/suckers who gave Trump the COVID. That should go over well with our military personnel.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  171. Rex Chapman
    @RexChapman

    Allowing Mike Pence to go back to the other question is white supremacy bullsh** in real time.

    Male white supremacy
    _ _

    Mark Ruffalo
    @MarkRuffalo

    Just going over it all in my head. The way Mike Pence constantly interrupted and spoke over @KamalaHarris was the prime example of white male supremacy and its common dismissal and disrespect for black woman.
    __ _

    frnchpnk
    @frnchpnk
    ·
    He was baiting her to lose her composure to fit into their racist stereotypes
    __ _

    JD
    @m5drummer
    ·
    Annnnnnd yet she spoke for 3min+ longer than him.
    __ _

    Vietnamese Girl
    @VietRedRaider
    ·
    Definitely watched different debate. Moderator would quietly say thank you Senator let her speak for another 15-20 seconds before jumping in a second time. Pence she would say over and over thank you loudly more forcefully. We later find she stopped him before his time often

    _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  172. qdpsteve (8d496a) — 10/7/2020 @ 7:59 pm

    . The fly just signed a lucrative book deal.

    On CBS This Morning (broadcast starting at 7 am Eastern Daylight Time) Gayle King said the fly now had 90,000 followers on its Twitter account.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  173. I wonder. If Biden had agreed to the pee test … whose pee would Trump have provided?

    W-h-a-t a c-a-r-n-i-v-a-l s-i-d-e-s-h-o-w o-f a P-r-e-s-i-d-e-n-t!

    nk (1d9030)

  174. Trump is pu$$ying out of debate #2.

    The debate commission is pu$$ying out on their agreed upon format.

    The debate was to be moderated by a Biden intern and an anti-Trump partisan, so no loss there.

    beer ‘n pretzels (d69680)

  175. The debate commission should call Trump’s bluff. The debate goes on with or without him. Trump can do his mami cariño, and Biden will do the debate by himself, and let’s see which gets better ratings?

    nk (1d9030)

  176. The debate commission is pu$$ying out on their agreed upon format.

    The debate was to be moderated by a Biden intern and an anti-Trump partisan, so no loss there.

    beer ‘n pretzels (d69680) — 10/8/2020 @ 7:53 am

    No loss for Trump fans. Trump’s last effort was a spectacular failure.

    Trump lied when he agreed to let the other guy talk uninterrupted. The folks running the debate had every right to fix the problem. They took Trump at his word and regretted it. You can’t seriously blame them for learning their lesson.

    Trump’s campaign then started announcing Biden cancelled the debate, because they were testing the issue. The very next day.

    I thought you guys said Trump fights. Yeah that means some of the people he faces are democrats. If that is really your reason for Trump being scared, then he doesn’t fight.

    I hope Biden shows up anyway, debates a big stack of coffins marked “Trump did this”

    Dustin (4237e0)

  177. Could they get Alec Baldwin to stand in for Trump?

    nk (1d9030)

  178. The debate commission is pu$$ying out on their agreed upon format.

    I actually agree. Just put Trump in a plexiglass box and go forward, but it still remains that Trump found an excuse to bail after completely cocking-up debate #1.

    Paul Montagu (32958f)

  179. The debate commission should call Trump’s bluff. The debate goes on with or without him. Trump can do his mami cariño, and Biden will do the debate by himself, and let’s see which gets better ratings?

    nk (1d9030) — 10/8/2020 @ 7:58 am

    Yes. In fact, this would be pretty awesome because Biden would have to answer questions without the chance of Trump accidentally saving him from a gaffe. Just pan the camera to an empty chair with a “President Trump” label for literally one half of the time.

    It’s even better that this is a town hall, where citizens want to ask questions, and Trump’s tactic of being nasty to the whole room would have been pretty difficult.

    A better man would have just laughed at his mistakes last round and done a better job.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  180. Yes. In fact, this would be pretty awesome because Biden would have to answer questions

    Don’t worry, the moderator would be throwing only softballs to Biden. Even that geriatric paste-eater couldn’t mess it up.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  181. Ah yes, one of those town halls with fake “undecided” voters. The Dems are so confident they can win they have to stack the deck with that and a Biden hack moderator.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  182. 155. Dustin (4237e0) — 10/8/2020 @ 6:56 am

    What a coward. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a presidential candidate punk out of a debate before.

    Jimmy Carter did, in 1980. Or rather, he never agreed to participate in the first place. So Ronald Reagan debated John Anderson instead, which got national live TV coverage/.

    Jimmy Carter agreed to the final debate so there was one debate between Reagan and Cater.

    That’s where Reagan said “There you go again” and “Are you better off now than you were four years ago?” (not just said in general, which is why it doesn’t work for other candidates. This was because, in 1976. Jimmy Carter got a late endorsement from the AFL-CIO on the grounds that Democrats were better for the economy and Jimmy Carter was a Democrat, and that probably pulled him over the top. So Reagan was asking: It’s almost four years now. Did that happen?)

    Presidents aren’t always responsible for what happens to the economy, but Jimmy Cater was, because, in 1979, he ad engineered the appointment of Paul Volcker to the Federal Reserve Board (getting his 1978 appointment, G. William Miller, to resign as Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board by appointing him Secretary of the Treasury and Paul Volcker, as Jimmy Carter, proceeded to “fight inflation” by raising interest rates to the pointt where the prime rate was 20%, this causing a recession without doing anything about inflation, because prices drop in recessions on;y where there is also a breakdown in inventory control. That last happened in 1920 (it took six months) and during the Great Depression. It never happened after that, but they continued with this outdated theory for decades which never worked.

    However there was a breakdown in inventory control in 1948 (and a sudden end to inflation – Dewey never knew what hit him – the chief thing that the “do-nothing Congress” was doing nothing about was inflation) due to, I figured out, an accelerating expansion Most economists never figured it out. Milton Friedman argued in 1960 that very low interest rates in 1948 was tight money.)

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  183. I thought you guys said Trump fights.

    They meant he fights with the press on social media. So demonstrates that he hates people they hate. They don’t care about fighting for actual goals. They dismiss fighting for those as ‘muh principles’

    If you think this describes you then I’m not talking about you with this description.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  184. @152 Lets talk about Cuomo and the nursing homes for a second, since it keeps being brought up as a counter to the point that Trump’s handling of Covid has been incredibly incompetent. (though why both things can’t be true at the same time puzzles me.)

    People sometimes make honest mistakes that turn out to have really bad consequences. There were a lot of people trying to get a handle on things at the beginning of this who were doing the best the could with the information they had but made a wrong, sometimes deadly, call. I don’t blame them for an honest mistake. I don’t blame Trump for not shutting down travel from China fast enough and I don’t blame the governors who made some mistakes. The governors, at least, had an excuse in that they didn’t have what should have been the best advisory team in the world to base their decision making off of, but even with what should have been the best advisory team in the world, some mistakes were going to be made.

    On the other hand, I do not feel inclined to forgive an ongoing disinformation campaign perpetrated by the highest office in the country, a result of which may be tens of thousands (possibly more than 100 thousand) of unnecessary deaths.

    @164 Trump could have done better by 1. Leading a unified, coordinated national effort to get PPE to the appropriate places in a timely manner and work on a national response to the epidemic. 2. Getting correct information out to states. 3. Giving the correct information to the American public. 4. Not giving bad and harmful information to the American public.

    @178 The debate commission likes debaters who aren’t a human petri dish.

    Nic (896fdf)

  185. Yes. In fact, this would be pretty awesome because Biden would have to answer questions

    Don’t worry, the moderator would be throwing only softballs to Biden. Even that geriatric paste-eater couldn’t mess it up.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 10/8/2020 @ 8:10 am

    If only Trump were there to hold Biden accountable and drive his popularity (checks notes) up 10points….

    Canceling the debate probably helps Biden.
    Not showing up probably hurts Biden because it will make him the focus. Biden is only winning because he’s running against Trump, who is the 2nd most unpopular candidate in living memory. If Trump were replaced tomorrow by a generic republican Biden would lose.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  186. Don’t worry, the moderator would be throwing only softballs to Biden. Even that geriatric paste-eater couldn’t mess it up.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 10/8/2020 @ 8:10 am

    Nah, that’s just fanaticism. Trump is not this victim you guys keep crying he is. Biden got asked some tough questions in the last debate, and if Trump hadn’t been a moron, he would have produced some gaffes or flip flops.

    I grant the media is biased. Some of it is bitterly and insanely biased for Trump, some is the opposite, and in debates, usually it’s not extreme, but it’s to the left.

    It’s too bad the GOP didn’t nominate a fighter who could handle that, and instead nominated a coward who hides from it. All you have to do about bias is point it out.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  187. Jimmy Carter did, in 1980. Or rather, he never agreed to participate in the first place. So Ronald Reagan debated John Anderson instead, which got national live TV coverage/.

    Interesting!

    Dustin (4237e0)

  188. Cumo made a horrible mistake. But that mistake doesn’t explain our current trajectory for fatalities per capita.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  189. If they turn on the Camera, Trump will be there.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  190. Nah, that’s just fanaticism…I grant the media is biased. Some of it is bitterly and insanely biased for Trump, some is the opposite, and in debates, usually it’s not extreme, but it’s to the left.

    The moderator for the second debate? A former Joe Biden intern.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  191. The moderator for the second debate? A former Joe Biden intern.

    He also worked for Ted Kennedy.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  192. The moderator for the second debate? A former Joe Biden intern.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 10/8/2020 @ 8:21 am

    I understand this is a talking point and you didn’t want to respond to me so you’re repeating the talking point.

    But if Trump can’t handle Biden’s intern, he can’t handle Biden. The political press is full of people who are interested in politics. Some of them are nuts on the right, some are nuts on the left, and some are kinda moderate, but harbor bias.

    Trump ain’t the first Republican to have a moderator who disagreed with him. He’s just the first republican to be too scared to show up to a fight he agreed to.

    Why are you defending cowardice? What possible benefit do you get from Trump being a punk-ass?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  193. “The moderator for the second debate? A former Joe Biden intern.”

    For one month in 1978.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  194. Since you guys are suddenly concerned about people’s previous political choices, consider that if Trump had shown up for the debate, both debaters would be recent Hillary and Schumer donors!

    Truly an unfair matchup from a Republican point of view.

    It’s weird Trump fans get glassy eyed when Trump’s recent record of supporting the left comes up, but are frothing if anyone else’s (generally much lesser degree of support) comes up.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  195. I interned for the GOP for a while. Worked for a couple of campaigns, too. Then I grew out of it. I’m not a cog in that machine, nor should anyone trust professional politicians, basically ever. If you want to make a difference, don’t argue with politics nerds or get starry eyed for any candidate. Just walk outside your door and make a difference. Be a defense attorney, be a firefighter, be a teacher, be the best garbage collector in America, but don’t put your hopes in these bastards.

    It’s actually that internship experience that most clearly informs my criticism of the GOP.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  196. 171 Dustin (4237e0) — 10/8/2020 @ 7:37 am

    . when praising the Tienanmen Square massacre.

    equote was circulated in 2016, but Trump actually said that in 1991. It wasn’t exactly praise, but it could be read that way. He said they showed they weren’t weak.

    And you know, that collusion thing y’all keep pretending didn’t happen.

    It takes two to collude and Vladimir Putin would never take Donald Trump into his confidence.

    Now Putin was trying to help Trump, from about May 2016 (earlier he said kid words about Trump but didn’t want to place his bet on him) till about the middle of October, when he concluded that Trump was going to lose.

    Later, after Trump gave people the idea he might name Mitt Romney as Sercretary of State, Putin tried to take Trump;s victory away from him through Jill Stein asking for recounts (Green Party nominee Jill Stein was practically a Kremlin agent, even more than Mike Flynn.)

    Then he got more friendly to him.

    Putin was against Hillary since early 2014, and in 2015 he arranged to give a lot of money to Hunter Biden. This was before Joe Biden decided, in or around October 2015, that he wouldn’t run in 2016.

    I think Joe Biden had been encouraged by Hillary to think he had more time to decide. Then she switched to saying it was too late because he couldn’t raise enough money. (All through third parties.)

    Biden wasn’t in the mood to plan a run for president right after his son Beau died.

    Biden ain’t the cure. He’s just the sorry price we have to pay to get rid of the worst president we’ve ever had.

    I’m not so sure. What about Andrew Jackson?

    And there have been better liars. And some who committed serious crimes. Like Bill Clinton.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  197. For one month in 1978.</em

    LOL. He moved on to Ted Kennedy. But, yeah, that was so long ago and I’m sure he’s changed.

    He has an anti-Trump social media history. That would be recent. But, only one or two posts, Davethulhu, so never mind.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  198. I interned for the GOP for a while. Worked for a couple of campaigns, too.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 10/8/2020 @ 8:32 am

    Ditto. Also I’ve been very mean about my Dem Governor. Guess I’m an unreliable partisan pro-GOP hack. I’m sure I come across that way here.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  199. @194 You realize that the moderator for the 1st debate was a current Fox News anchor, right?

    Nic (896fdf)

  200. @201, do you have a link handy? I’d be interested in learning more about that.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  201. Since you guys are suddenly concerned about people’s previous political choices, consider that if Trump had shown up for the debate, both debaters would be recent Hillary and Schumer donors!

    Yeah, Dustin, consider that when Reagan debated Carter and Mondale, all of them had been pro-union Democrats!! Isn’t that amazing?

    This canard never gets old.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  202. LOL Seriously messed up the formatting @201.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  203. Nic,

    The virology links Simon Jester gave us (at the beginning of the Covid pandemic) are excellent. They include weekly podcasts with a guest who is a New York medical doctor who treated Covid patients in the hospital. I think his name is Dr Daniel Griffin. I recall him saying that it was the medical community that insisted Cuomo send Covid patients who were released from the hospital to nursing homes, because the patients were too sick to send them home and the doctors feared they would run out of space for new patients if they stayed in the hospital (and they would have). If the Navy ships had been there earlier, they might have sent them there.

    I agree they did the best they could at the time with the knowledge they had. Now we know that nursing homes aren’t isolating enough to protect Covid patients. I know from my father’s limited time in a nursing home that, in fact, they are designed to socialize patients, not isolate them. They try to get patients back into everyday life with other people, plus the specialized OT/PT staff often travels to several facilities so that makes it worse. I think most people saw nursing homes are less intensive versions of hospitals, but in reality hospitals are much better at isolating patients.

    DRJ (aede82)

  204. “LOL. He moved on to Ted Kennedy. But, yeah, that was so long ago and I’m sure he’s changed.

    He has an anti-Trump social media history. That would be recent. But, only one or two posts, Davethulhu, so never mind.”

    Ok, then this is your complaint, not the “interned for Biden” one. However, was his identity a secret when Trump agreed to the debate originally?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  205. That isolation is why so many people hate hospitals.

    DRJ (aede82)

  206. Nic (896fdf) — 10/8/2020 @ 8:15 am

    On the other hand, I do not feel inclined to forgive an ongoing disinformation campaign perpetrated by the highest office in the country, a result of which may be tens of thousands (possibly more than 100 thousand) of unnecessary deaths.

    What disinformation was that? That the shutdowns could end?

    Right now, Trump is trying to save thousands of lives by making the cure he got available to everybody.

    Although he may not be following through, and we’ll see. He should offer to agree to practically everything Nancy Pelosi wants to spend provided the Congress will immediately legalize Regeneron’s antibody cocktail – which shows no signs of harm and has no reason to be harmful and is 98% likely to be approved anyway in the next few months.

    He should endorse having Congress pay for it – and even agree, if Congress wants, to offer it for free to anybody in the world, taking it up about paying for it with other governments later.

    It’ll be nice to see the Democrats argue against that. And they will.

    They have argued against any vaccine that Trump supports, as if Trump put forth a vaccine all on his own and as if doctors and researchers and companies involved don’t have their own reputations to protect.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  207. @164 Trump could have done better by 1. Leading a unified, coordinated national effort to get PPE to the appropriate places in a timely manner

    What do you think Mike Pence was doing? It was marred by some incompetence at the beginning.

    and work on a national response to the epidemic.

    What do you mean by that? Legally, it’s only states that have emergency powers.

    2. Getting correct information out to states.

    depends on what you think is correct. Now he did say some clearly wrong things – but he didn’t stop others from saying differently. And the CDC also kept pushing out wrong information – like that 6 foot limit, or the importance of sanitation.

    3. Giving the correct information to the American public.

    Correct, and approved by government scientists are not exactly the same thing.

    / 4. Not giving bad and harmful information to the American public.

    That’s all a matter of opinion. But yes, he said thins he probably did not believe.

    That we have the cure now is not one of those things. The problem there is that Trump will be too cautious.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  208. Ok, then this is your complaint, not the “interned for Biden” one. However, was his identity a secret when Trump agreed to the debate originally?

    No, that is my complaint.

    I do agree though that the Republicans, whether it’s Bush or McCain or Romney or Trump, are not doing proper due diligence. It’s just one extra thing they have to do, that Dems don’t need to bother with.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  209. 207. DRJ (aede82) — 10/8/2020 @ 8:40 am

    Dr Daniel Griffin. I recall him saying that it was the medical community that insisted Cuomo send Covid patients who were released from the hospital to nursing homes, because the patients were too sick to send them home and the doctors feared they would run out of space for new patients if they stayed in the hospital (and they would have). If the Navy ships had been there earlier, they might have sent them there.

    The Navy ships became available, and Cuomo didn’t try to change the terms so the Navy ships could accept the,

    I think it was a question of money. They could have put them up in hotels.

    I agree they did the best they could at the time with the knowledge they had.

    No, they didn’t. They lied, and they wanted to save money for the state..Because they could ave put discharged patients up in hotels.

    Thw single worst decision was not to let the families visit. Because that would ended the whole thing in a week.

    Now we know that nursing homes aren’t isolating enough to protect Covid patients.

    They weren’t allowed to test them before admitting them. They weren’t allowed to reject anyone.

    Only some time after the New York Post broke the story ws the decisoon reversed – and Cuomo never admitted it was wrong.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  210. Trump says Gold Star families could have given him Covid-19

    Trump’s war on the military

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  211. @211 He’s touted every quack “cure” that came along. He’s deliberately and repeatedly understated the danger of the virus. He’s discouraged various safety meassures. He’s insisted that large venues and highly interactive businesses should be open, despite even his own medical advisors’ advice. He’s pushed plans that directly contradicted the recommendations of his own task force. He keeps pushing to reduce or even end proper data collection. He’s downplayed the data we have. And he, himself, has held events that run counter to the recommendations of his own task force, including the most recent super-spreader event in the Rose Garden.

    And as far as the vaccine is concerned, Trump wants to release a mostly untested vaccine in order to help his reelection chances. It isn’t ready for release yet, he just likes the idea for political reasons.

    Nic (896fdf)

  212. 188. Nic (896fdf) — 10/8/2020 @ 8:15 am

    . @178 The debate commission likes debaters who aren’t a human petri dish.

    But we can safely project that, by October 15, Donald Trump won’t be, if what the white House is saying is correct.

    With only a very small chance of being wrong.

    They cold have asked for better medical records. They could have asked for the approval of some doctors as a condition. They could have offered a postponement.

    I believe the reason Trump doesn’t want a Zoom debate is because that then he can’t interrupt or continue his remarks after the moderator says is time is up, and that’s really the only reason.

    That is not a very complementary reason.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  213. @186-
    Paul Volcker was a great public servant. Too bad most are craven and out for themselves.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  214. He has an anti-Trump social media history.

    So does the whole country. Trump doesn’t get a pass if everyone hates his awful performance. You’d have to be crazy to be praising Trump after this year. If your standard is that only people who haven’t criticized this train wreck are fair, your standard is that only Trump fans are fair. Look man, he’s real bad at this stuff.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  215. @212 Trump has been undermining and denying his own commission constantly. He isn’t leading it, he’s trying to shush it.

    I cannot believe that you think the only way to create a coordinated national response is to force ideas on states via legal pressure. Sometimes it is possible to get a group (in this case probably involving the governors) together to 1. gather information. 2. Use that information to brainstorm ideas. 3. Formulate strategies based on those ideas. 4. Agree upon which strategies to implement. (shadow 4.5 since it’s politics- disseminate those strategies to the public) 5. Implement those strategies. Sometimes one can lead through gaining consensus. And, yes, I think it would have been possible to lead with consensus at the beginning of all this, had Trump been the kind of person who could do that. Everyone was grasping for solutions, it was a golden opportunity for Trump to show leadership and instead he managed to fall flat on his face.

    Suggesting that testing less means fewer cases is not a good data collection strategy. frex.

    @217 I mean, it was a joke. However, I suspect that your answer was also a joke? “If what the White House is saying is correct.” is a statement that pretty much can only be a joke at this point.

    Nic (896fdf)

  216. 216. @211

    He’s touted every quack “cure” that came along.

    No, no, He didn’t tout the treatment made by Fujifilm and advocated by then Prime Minister Shinzo Abe of Japan, Avigan (generic name favipiravir) which causes serious birth defects. He did not tout wearing a ring of eucalyptus leaves around your neck, as in Indonesia. He did not tout herbal tea from Madagascar as in Tanzania. He did not tout ingesting chlorine dioxide, as the Senate of Bolivia did. He did not tout religious amulets, as the president of Mexico did. He only touted what was brought to his attention by prominent Republicans.

    And he was ready to switch horses and now he has the right thing.

    He’s deliberately and repeatedly understated the danger of the virus.

    He’s still doing it. Even granted we have a cure.

    He’s discouraged various safety meassures.

    He’s worried about the economy. But everybody is.

    He’s insisted that large venues and highly interactive businesses should be open, despite even his own medical advisors’ advice.

    Remember cclsoing them is only like treading water. That’s a strategy that would have to be maintained for three or four years. The fault would be not acknowledging the risk.

    He’s pushed plans that directly contradicted the recommendations of his own task force.

    How much of an effect does that have?

    He keeps pushing to reduce or even end proper data collection.

    He does seem reluctant to get data.

    He’s downplayed the data we have. And he, himself, has held events that run counter to the recommendations of his own task force, including the most recent super-spreader event in the Rose Garden.

    The event also took place indoors. Outdoors is not so so counter because ultraviolet rays from the sun almost instantly kills the virus and the wind dilutes the concentration (the same as masks do)

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  217. Yeah, Dustin, consider that when Reagan debated Carter and Mondale, all of them had been pro-union Democrats!! Isn’t that amazing?

    It is amazing. Reagan communicated this well. The democratic party had left him, but he still appreciated the value of unions. I watched Patterico’s recent link to one of those debates where he didn’t ‘handle’ this distinction. He simply explained who he was in a way we could understand.

    Trump wasn’t a democrat for the reasons Reagan was. He was hustling real estate with connections. He was praising Hillary in over the top terms for about half of his life, then suddenly flip flopped.

    I agree Reagan is amazing.

    Many Trump fans have tried, like you have, to explain trump is basically Reagan, maybe even better, but no one buys it. That’s why your argument had to be sarcastic in tone. Trump’s an outspoken democrat who plays a caricature of a republican while spending trillions of dollars we don’t have and failing to achieve a single legislative accomplishment.

    But to your actual point, Reagan would show up to this debate.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  218. @221 Terribly sorry, will correct: He touted every quack cure that he became aware of.

    Nic (896fdf)

  219. Karen Attiah [Washington Post]
    @KarenAttiah

    So Pence didn’t answer the question: Why does America have the worst death rate on earth?__ _
    __ _

    Nathan Wurtzel
    @nathanwurtzel
    ·
    We don’t. We’re 9th.

    But you can be excused for not knowing this because it’s not like you work for a news-gathering organization.
    __ _

    harkin (7fb4c9)

  220. And as far as the vaccine is concerned, Trump wants to release a mostly untested vaccine in order to help his reelection chances.

    Do you understand the kind of tests that the Food and Drug administration wants?

    They want it to be tested by giving half the people a placebo and then waiting until five people given the placebo get a severe case of Covid-19.

    While hundreds die till they wait till that happens. If the disease is controlled by social distancing then you won’t have five cases.

    It’s mathematically impossible for hundreds more not to die as a condition for approving a vaccine, especially if you also don’t authorize emergency use of therapeutics, which, as far as I know, Joe Biden also opposes.

    This is science uber alles. If that’s the way they fewl – that they need absolute proof the vaccine works- then you could inject who got the real vaccine with Covid and see if they come down with it (they shouldn’t) and be ready with the antibody cocktail in case they do.

    It isn’t ready for release yet, he just likes the idea for political reasons.

    It could be argued that there are political reasons for not </b? releasing it.

    If Democrats won't accept it, that gives the FDA a reason to ask for more proof.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  221. 223. They weren’t quack cures.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  222. 34 people connected to White House, more than previously known, infected by coronavirus: Internal FEMA memo

    The coronavirus outbreak has infected “34 White House staffers and other contacts” in recent days, according to an internal government memo, an indication that the disease has spread among more people than previously known in the seat of American government.

    Dated Wednesday and obtained by ABC News, the memo was distributed among senior leadership at FEMA, a branch of the Department of Homeland Security and the agency responsible for managing the continuing national response to the public health disaster.
    …….
    On Tuesday, White House Communications Director Alyssa Farah said the White House was “taking precautions” to stem the spread and that those still working in the West Wing “feel comfortable.”

    But on Wednesday, images emerged showing several White House aides interacting in close proximity with one another without masks.
    >>>>>>>>>
    The White House should fly this flag as a warning.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  223. 220. Nic (896fdf) — 10/8/2020 @ 9:26 am

    And, yes, I think it would have been possible to lead with consensus at the beginning of all this, had Trump been the kind of person who could do that.

    heydid that, although Trump wasn’t personally involved with that.

    Some of that consensus was wrong. They kept on pushing vwntilators for far too long. They weren’t paying attention to feedback..

    I think Donald Trump is still proud of his getting ventilators out there.

    Take a look. The Governors said I did a phenomenal job. Most of them said that. [of course, Trump was almost demanding that as a condition] In fact, people that would not be necessarily on my side said
    that, “President Trump did a phenomenal job.” We did. We got the gowns. We got the masks. We made the ventilators. You wouldn’t have made ventilators. And now we’re weeks away from a vaccine. We’re doing therapeutics already. Fewer people are dying when they get sick. Far
    fewer people are dying. We’ve done a great job.

    Nic:

    Suggesting that testing less means fewer cases is not a good data collection strategy. frex.

    @217 I mean, it was a joke. However, I suspect that your answer was also a joke? “If what the White House is saying is correct.” is a statement that pretty much can only be a joke at this point.

    It’s just a caveat. You have to judge. Anything backed up by doctors is probably correct.

    And either Trump was never sick or he was cured by the antibody cocktail. It cannot be that he was and remains sick.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  224. Trump insists on working in the Oval Office, so they are doing the best they can, as they have done with a lot of things Trump does with respect to containing the virus.

    They are limiting the number of people, Mark Meadows is wearing extraordinary PPE and they are cleaning the Oval Office. Now he’s probably no longer contagious ad may have been told that.

    The length of the period of isolation is just extra caution.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  225. @225 Yes, Sammy, you test vaccines by giving the vaccine to some people and not to others and then having them do the same regular things that they do and then seeing if there are different results in different groups. You are looking for significant differences in results across the two populations. Not doing it that way can result in a vaccine that does nothing or a vaccine that can cause harmful side effects in large segments of the population. That’s why the testing protocols exist. Nobody wants a vaccine that kills 20,000 people from kidney failure, even if it saves 10,000 people with Covid.

    @226 You can believe that if you want.

    @228 He told the states to fend for themselves re PPE and then the feds were literally stealing it from them. And the ventilators he sent us were non-functional.

    “And either Trump was never sick or he was cured by the antibody cocktail. It cannot be that he was and remains sick.”

    He could still be sick and just taking enough meds to temporarily mask his symptoms, we don’t know and his doctor certainly hasn’t been honest with us. He could have just gotten better, people do. Or the two options you presented could be correct. That’s the problem with having an administration that straight up lies about everything, you can’t believe anything they say. If a Trump spox came out and said that a California July would be hot, I’d be digging out my sweater collection at the end of June.

    Nic (896fdf)

  226. Trump, ad his Chiefof Staff are fighting with the Food and Drug Administration over what hoops a potential vaccine needs to go through before it is approved:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/05/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-guidelines.html

    Top White House officials are blocking strict new federal guidelines for the emergency release of a coronavirus vaccine, objecting to a provision that would almost certainly guarantee that no vaccine could be authorized before the election on Nov. 3, according to people familiar with the approval process.

    Facing a White House blockade, the Food and Drug Administration is seeking other avenues to ensure that vaccines meet the guidelines. That includes sharing the standards — perhaps as soon as this week — with an outside advisory committee of experts that is supposed to meet publicly before any vaccine is authorized for emergency use. The hope is that the committee will enforce the guidelines, regardless of the White House’s reaction.

    ….The vaccine guidelines carry special significance: By refusing to allow the Food and Drug Administration to release them, the White House is undercutting the government’s effort to reassure the public that any vaccine will be safe and effective, health experts fear.

    “The public [That means Democrats -SF] must have full faith in the scientific process and the rigor of F.D.A.’s regulatory oversight if we are to end the pandemic,” the biotech industry’s trade association pleaded on Thursday, in a letter to President Trump’s health secretary, Alex M. Azar II, asking for release of the guidelines.

    The Food and Drug Administration submitted the guidelines to the Office of Management and Budget for approval more than two weeks ago, but they stalled in the office of Mark Meadows, the White House chief of staff. Their approval is now seen as highly unlikely.

    A main sticking point has been the recommendation that volunteers who have participated in vaccine clinical trials be followed for a median of two months after the final dose before any authorization is granted, according to a senior administration official and others familiar with the situation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Given where the clinical trials stand, that two-month follow-up period would all but preclude any emergency clearance before Election Day…Mr. Meadows raised a series of concerns, a senior administration official said. He questioned the need for two months of follow-up data, said that stricter recommendations would change the rules in the middle of clinical trials and suggested that Dr. Hahn was overly influenced by his agency’s career scientists.

    ….F.D.A. officials later provided additional justification to the White House, explaining that the two-month follow-up was necessary to identify possible side effects and ensure that a vaccine’s protection against Covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus, was not short-lived…

    n addition to the two-month follow-up period, the guidelines stated that there should be at least five cases of severe infection in the placebo group as evidence that a vaccine is effective in preventing more than just mild to moderate illness. About 10 percent of Covid-19 cases are considered severe.

    This wmkes it mathematically impossible to approve avaccine until hundreds, if not thousands more people die.

    Hey – juat inject volunteers with Covid! Or do they think their proposed method of going ahead is more ethical? Is there a reason to think a vaccine would not prevent a severe case? Even partial protection would do that.

    If they were that wrong about the vaccine they would have caught their mistake long ago.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  227. 230. Nic (896fdf) — 10/8/2020 @ 10:02 am

    @225 Yes, Sammy, you test vaccines by giving the vaccine to some people and not to others and then having them do the same regular things that they do and then seeing if there are different results in different groups.

    That;s the way they do it, but is that the way they should do it? And sometimes they don’t just do the same regular things that they do but they have the people who didn’t get the placebo with the virus. I mean we don;t ave any doubts that a certain percentage of people can get hurt by the virus.

    You are looking for significant differences in results across the two populations.

    And to do that here and now is valuing science uber alles. It’s totally unnecessary.

    Not doing it that way can result in a vaccine that does nothing

    It would be veery hard to mak =e such amistake. You can look at the antibody response. There is no reason to suppose that the antibodies would be ineffective. In any case you don’t have to wait for more people to get infected and seriously ill.

    Why not demand that a few people given the placebo die as well??

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  228. or a vaccine that can cause harmful side effects in large segments of the population.

    That’s what I think they need to be careful about and that’s what I think they may not be checking.

    What happens if they give the vaccine to someone who recovered from a severe case?

    Maybe they would get the Kawasaki like syndrome. (called Associated Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome)

    This is what you need to anticipate. A set of rules is no substitute for judgement.

    Are they testing the vaccine on anybody who already got the disease or are they screening such people out?

    And can you screen them out after more than perhaps six months have passed since the infection? The antibodies disappear from the blood, but they don’t from the body’s immune memory.

    They can screen them out now but they won’t be able to avoid giving the vaccine to such people in 2021. It won;t help to counterindicate it.

    That’s why the testing protocols exist. Nobody wants a vaccine that kills 20,000 people from kidney failure, even if it saves 10,000 people with Covid.

    We know that doesn’t happen, but I can see something that might and also see that none of the testing protocols would discover that.

    A set of rules is no substitute for judgement.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  229. @231 “If they were that wrong about the vaccine they would have caught their mistake long ago.”

    Not really. There can be severe side effects that show up in a larger population that don’t show up in a smaller group.

    You are not touting good medicine, you are touting good politics for Trump.

    @232 Yes, that’s the way they should do it. Otherwise you get too many weird placebo effects or other mostly psychiatric phenomenon and miss side effects that could be easily dismissed but become apparent when you actually sit down and compare numbers between groups. It is not “totally unnecessary” again, we do not want to lose 20,000 people to kidney failure or similar even to save 10,000 with Covid (and yes, it is an example of a theoretical, not an actual facts case).

    @233 There isn’t a good way to screen out anyone who had Covid 6 months or more ago because they probably didn’t know they had it, or don’t know for sure. The anti-body test isn’t much good. I’m pretty sure it went through my school back in Feb/March, but there’s no real way to tell.

    And, in fact, a set of rules is meant as substitute for judgement because so many people have bad judgement.

    Nic (896fdf)

  230. Trump overhyped them because they were only mildly effective treatments, not cures.

    But there’s tendency to self correct about this especially when someone is subject to criticism.

    He instantly withdrew his “brilliant” idea about drinking bleach as soon as he got the answer to his question.

    @228 He told the states to fend for themselves re PPE and then the feds were literally stealing it from them.

    Yes, this happened, because he was both letting states fend for themselves and not doing so.

    And the ventilators he sent us were non-functional.

    Because there apparently wasn’t anything written down about the importance of maintenace. A contract for maintaining some of them ran out in August 2019. Then a bigger contract was given to another company. The two companies fought until the new company prevailed in January, 2020. They needed to replace the batteries!

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/us/politics/coronavirus-ventilators.html

    Vyaire was responsible for maintaining some of the ventilators in the federal stockpile until that contract ran out in late August. The company protested when a broader contract to keep the stockpile up-to-date was granted to Agiliti instead. The dispute was not resolved until January, when Agiliti again prevailed.

    It then received thousands of ventilators — it would not say how many — for restoration, and that work is still underway.

    But this was maybe a good thing because use of ventilators cost lives.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  231. 216 221 223. I left out among the quack cures, vodka in Belorus.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  232. @236 In all fairness, the Russians are pretty sure that enough Vodka will cure anything.

    Nic (896fdf)

  233. “And either Trump was never sick or he was cured by the antibody cocktail. It cannot be that he was and remains sick.”

    He could still be sick and just taking enough meds to temporarily mask his symptoms,

    No, he also has to get a negative test, and positive tests continue past the point if illness. And what kind of meds would “mask his symptoms?

    The thing they use to say someone has it or not is a test for the virus or virus particles. Not any other thing.

    we don’t know and his doctor certainly hasn’t been honest with us.

    Haven’t been open because Trump has not authorized complete and open discussion. That doesn’t mean that what they do say is wrong. The doctor at first made some mistakes with the timeline – Mark Meadows went out to the press to correct him “off the record.”

    He could have just gotten better, people do. Or the two options you presented could be correct.

    Just getting better is one of my options. It would mean he was never really sick.

    That’s the problem with having an administration that straight up lies about everything, you can’t believe anything they say. If a Trump spox came out and said that a California July would be hot, I’d be digging out my sweater collection at the end of June.

    Trump said the other day it would get cold (he wasn’t clear if he meant later this year or another year.

    Saying that cutting carbon emissions is the way to fight fires is ridiculous. Carbon emissions were cut maybe by about 15% this year, yet this is said to be the worst year ever.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  234. @238 the carbon emissions thing: Part of the reason the fires have been bad is because it has been very hot with very little rain. If you support the idea that humans contribute to climate change, then increased carbon emissions over time make climate change worse while decreased carbon emissions over time can help return the environment to it’s natural balance, or at least not make it worse, thereby, hopefully, meaning it would be less hot and more rainy. The idea, however, isn’t a take an aspirin and make your headache go away sort of theory, it’s more of a long-term change over time kind of process.

    Nic (896fdf)

  235. They have non party municipal elections

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  236. True, but he’s a Democrat.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)


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