Patterico's Pontifications

9/29/2020

Presidential Debate Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 12:51 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Well, tonight’s the big night. The first of three presidential debate begins at 9 p.m. ET (6 p.m. PT) and you can watch it on every major network and cable news channel as well as on YouTube.

So, how’s the debate prep going for the two candidates? Frankly, the former TV reality star doesn’t appear to be too concerned about doing any serious preparation ahead of tonight’s event:

On Monday morning, he made a surprise appearance on the South Lawn to survey a new all-electric pickup truck. He convened reporters in the Rose Garden later in the day for an announcement on Covid testing.

On Saturday, the President was largely preoccupied with the pending announcement of Amy Coney Barrett as his Supreme Court nominee and held no formal debate prep sessions, according to people familiar with the matter… After the announcement Trump flew to Pennsylvania for a campaign rally.

On Sunday, Trump spent much of the morning and early afternoon at his private golf club in Virginia — and was seen playing a round on the course midday — before convening an early evening press conference, which had no discernible purpose other than repeating his praise of Barrett and making false claims about mail-in voting. Christie and Giuliani joined him off to the side, and Trump said they were alternating playing Biden in debate practice sessions…

“We had a little debate prep before we came here,” Trump said at his news conference. “I think this whole thing, though, is debate prep. You know, what I do is debate prep every day.”

But there is some loosey-goosy-on-the-go prep happening:

In reality, people familiar with the matter said, both men along with several of the President’s aides are informally tossing out lines they believe Biden might use to see how Trump responds.

That includes accusing Trump of mismanaging the coronavirus pandemic, which the President is likely to rebut by citing his decision to ban travel from China — and accusing Biden of being soft on Beijing. Aides also expect Biden to bring up reports Trump disparaged members of the military, which he will seek to counter by pointing to his record of securing Pentagon funding while accusing Biden of supporting endless foreign wars.

Trump’s Director of Communications Tim Murtaugh echoed the President:

“The president prepares by being president. And by regularly facing hostile news media. That’s pretty good practice by any measure.” The president spokesperson added that while President Trump’s ABC News Town Hall last month advertised questions by “uncommitted” voters, the president was pressed. “He faced a rigorous and challenging questioning, I think, to put it mildly. It was a good debate practice workout.”

And yet, one would have to believe that surely his aides and campaign handlers are peppering the President with strategical responses to the just-released analysis of his tax returns. Specifically on how he should respond to Americans’ outrage over $750. With a massive number of voters now unemployed, losing their businesses, being evicted from their places of residence, and/or relying on food banks for the first time all because of the pandemic, how does Trump explain the paltry sum to frustrated Americans? Certainly blathering on about tax laws and loopholes, etc., is not going to cut it. While one would think that his base would continue to see this as just another unfair attack on him, might this just be a bridge too far for those supporters that have actually taken a financial hit during the pandemic? And of course, what about the undecideds? How does he reach them in light of this latest revelation?

For Joe Biden, debate prep is happening in the traditional do-your-homework manner:

[D]ebate prep has been taking place both in-person at his Delaware home and virtually, in huddles with long-time advisers and top campaign officials, according to a campaign source familiar with the strategy.

The Democrats are reviewing the president’s almost daily tweets about Biden, his record and his family as examples of the type of attacks they think the president will focus on.

“The people know the president is a liar,” Biden said in a MSNBC interview on Saturday. “He doesn’t know how to debate the facts, because he’s not that smart.”

“He doesn’t know that many facts. He doesn’t know much about foreign policy. He doesn’t know much about domestic policy. He doesn’t know much about the details,” Biden added.

For their part, the campaign believes Tuesday’s debate topics — specifically, COVID-19, race and violence in cities, and election integrity — allow Biden to highlight what he sees as the president’s most serious missteps. He’s expected to retool criticisms of the Trump administration he has been using for the past few months.

Biden is also expected to defend the Affordable Care Act and connect its fate, in part, to the nomination of Judge Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme Court, since Democrats see the nominee as potentially hostile to the Obama-era healthcare plan.

Axios lists some possible pitfalls that Trump and Biden need to watch for, respectively. I’ve taken their list and added my own thoughts and examples to it, thus it’s not in blockquotes:

Overconfidence. He hasn’t taken debate prep seriously. He is a bully by nature, and he may try to strongarm Biden – who has had 47 years of debate experience.

Policy. Can he clearly articulate what his second-term agenda would look like without the use of a teleprompter, or will he just go on some generalized stemwinder, which is what he is most comfortable with?

Attacks on the moderator. Think: Megyn Kelly.

Downplaying the coronavirus. How can his team even prepare him to answer to valid attacks by Biden on his mishandling of the pandemic when he has steadfastly refused to admit to it?

Lying. This will be a big problem for Trump, who likes to make stuff up in general. Given that Chris Wallace won’t be fact-checking the President, this presents the risk of Trump getting away with any number of lies during the actual debate (although his lies will be called out afterward).

The potential pitfalls for Joe Biden include: misspeaking, transposing numbers or seeming to lose his train of thought.

More:

Losing his cool. He has been confrontational with voters while on the campaign trail, and has aggressively gotten in their faces. So, when Trump baits him tonight, will he be able to keep his cool? It’s a problem for Biden, especially as he has even lost his temper and blamed Democrats for his own words. Remember when he was a guest on radio host Charlamagne tha God, and made his now infamous comment, “If you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black,” and the next day angrily blamed the black radio host for baiting him? Another example was, when he was questioned by a reporter about whether he had taken a cognitive test, Biden got angry and demanded to know whether the reporter was a junkie.

Verbosity. It is nearly impossible for Biden to go straight from Point A to Point B in a succinct and coherent manner. He is prone to finding himself out in the weeds, resulting in a tuned-out-glazed-over audience. He needs to make cogent and succinct arguments.

Lying. Biden is prone to storytelling and has been known to tell some real whoppers.

Tripping over his own tongue. He is also a human gaffe machine who has insulted any number of minority voters.

And there is this: “He’s also a creature of decades spent in the Senate, and some of his parliamentary verbiage is better understood in the cloakroom than in American living rooms.”

Two points of attack by Trump which are almost guaranteed to provoke an angry response from Biden will be questions about his age and mental acuity, as well as anything to do with Hunter Biden.

P.S. – The Trump campaign has made a last-minute request that both camps allow a third-party inspection of the debaters’ ears tonight for any electronic devices or transmitters. While Trump has agreed to this, Biden has declined to any such ear check.

It should be a fun night!

–Dana

UPDATE BY PATTERICO: I’ll try to be active in the comments. Let’s keep it friendly! Biden did make this joke on Twitter:

619 Responses to “Presidential Debate Open Thread”

  1. What a mouthful of a post. But there’s a lot going on ahead of tonight’s Main Event.

    Dana (292df6)

  2. I won’t be watching, and I already know how it will go. No matter how well Trump does, or how bad Biden does, the spin will be that Biden won because he did better than a mannequin.

    beer ‘n pretzels (21c0fe)

  3. I’ll try to watch, or at least pay attention to twittah.

    Speaking of twittah…

    So… the DNI declassed some intelligence that’s catching fire on twittah.

    It describes that US Intel agencies had info that Hillary Clinton, in the summer of 2016, had authorized a PLAN as part of the campaign to link Trump to Russian activity re DNC hack, and this info was forwarded to Comey and Strzok…that Brennan debriefed the Obama/Biden Whitehouse.

    o.O

    https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/09-29-20_Letter%20to%20Sen.%20Graham_Declassification%20of%20FBI's%20Crossfire%20Hurricane%20Investigations_20-00912_U_SIGNED-FINAL.pdf

    Chairman Graham,
    SEP 2 9 2020
    In response to your request for Intelligence Community (IC) information related to the
    Federal Bureau of Investigation’s (FBI) Crossfire Hurricane Investigation, I have declassified the
    following:

    • In late July 2016, U.S. intelligence agencies obtained insight into Russian intelligence
    analysis alleging that U.S. Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton had approved a
    campaign plan to stir up a scandal against U.S. Presidential candidate Donald Trump
    by tying him to Putin and the Russians’ hacking of the Democratic National
    Committee. The IC does not know the accuracy of this allegation or the extent to
    which the Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration or fabrication.

    • According to his handwritten notes, former Central Intelligence Agency Director
    Brennan subsequently briefed President Obama and other senior national security
    officials on the intelligence, including the “alleged approval by Hillary Clinton on
    July 26, 2016 of a proposal from one of her foreign policy advisors to vilify Donald
    Trump by stirring up a scandal claiming interference by Russian security services.”

    • On 07 September 2016, U.S. intelligence officials forwarded an investigative referral
    to FBI Director James Corney and Deputy Assistant Director of Counterintelligence
    Peter Strzok regarding “U.S. Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton’s approval of a
    plan concerning U.S. Presidential candidate Donald Trump and Russian hackers
    hampering U.S. elections as a means of distracting the public from her use of a private mail server.”

    As referenced in his 24 September 2020 letter to your Committee, Attorney General Barr
    has advised that the disclosure of this information will not interfere with ongoing Department of
    Justice investigations. Additional declassification and public disclosure of related intelligence
    remains under consideration; however, the IC welcomes the opportunity to provide a classified
    briefing with further detail at your convenience.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    whembly (c30c83)

  4. Ok, whembly, I get that you are interested in Clinton, but I just worked my fanny off on this post and would sure appreciate at least a cursory comment about the subject at hand.

    Dana (292df6)

  5. It’s time for Presidential Debate Bingo!

    You can play online, with your own unique, personally-generated bingo card … here.

    As a reminder, a lot of people say there are tremendous, fabulous cash prizes for the winners(*). It’s incredible.

    (*) All prizes will be paid by Mexico. 100 percent. Believe me.

    Dave (1bb933)

  6. You know who’d be the perfect moderator for this spectacle?

    Howard Cosell.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  7. More elder abuse. Biden supporters/Never Trumpers should be ashamed of themselves.

    Joe Biden Proves How Lucid He Is: Without A Teleprompter, Script Or Interrupting Staffer

    Horatio (aa83d3)

  8. Another example was, when he was questioned by a reporter about whether he had taken a cognitive test, Biden got angry and demanded to know whether the reporter was a junkie.

    He wasn’t angry in the least. He was laughing his ass off.

    Dave (1bb933)

  9. Again, if Trump answers a Wallace question with a ‘word salad’ and Plagiarist JoeyBee responds with, ‘I’ll have the shrimp cocktail,’ — would you laugh— or shudder w/terror at yet another ‘where am I’ gaffe?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  10. The Trump campaign has made a last-minute request that both camps allow a third-party inspection of the debaters’ ears tonight for any electronic devices or transmitters. While Trump has agreed to this, Biden has declined to any such ear check.

    Taking advantage of his supporters’ dim wits and gullibility again.

    The Secret Service routinely blocks wireless communication (other than their own) anywhere near the president.

    Dave (1bb933)

  11. Now that Jake Tapper has ceased being a journalist, he can purse his self-projected dream gig- of cartooning.

    Can you imagine Sam Donaldson letting Jill Biden get with that ‘no, no, no, we’re done on that- we’re not going there’ crap on Joe’s perpetual gaffe status?

    No.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  12. Again, if Trump answers a Wallace question with a ‘word salad’ and Plagiarist JoeyBee responds with, ‘I’ll have the shrimp cocktail,’ — would you laugh— or shudder w/terror at yet another ‘where am I’ gaffe?

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/29/2020 @ 1:26 pm

    I think this is pretty accurate. The headline will be that Biden beat the expectations, with the other side saying the expectation was that he was brain damaged.

    Biden supporters/Never Trumpers should be ashamed of themselves.

    I’m not ashamed at all. Proudly voting Biden because Trump’s taxes prove he is totally incompetent at everything. The reason America has been losing is that it’s run by a loser. Putin was clever to wield Trump like a weapon against freedom. I’m voting sixty times at the local nursing home.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  13. I’m voting sixty times at the local nursing home.

    You’re a great American.

    Dave (1bb933)

  14. The Trump campaign has made a last-minute request that both camps allow a third-party inspection of the debaters’ ears tonight for any electronic devices or transmitters. While Trump has agreed to this, Biden has declined to any such ear check.

    I would agree if they checked Trump’s shoes for any lifts.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  15. @12. What do you mean ‘was’??

    Dustin– Plagiarist JoeyBee is brain damaged.

    For God’s sake he has had multiple brain surgeries. You think they were drilling for oil or just rooting the hair plugs??!! Or maybe just installing a wireless remote.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  16. Biden will:

    use an inappropriate reference to a minority;

    lie about his background;

    brag about something he didn’t do during the Obama administration; and

    get really cranky and lose focus towards the end.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  17. Hoi Polloi,

    Now do Trump.

    Dana (292df6)

  18. @12. ‘…totally incompetent at everything…’

    Really? Where do you park your helicopters? How many beds in your hotel/casinos would you kick Melania, Ivana and Marla out of?

    A loser? He beat all those GOP cocktail weenies. And Fire Plug Hillary. In Akron, Moon Township, PA, most of Texas, down at the Scranton Dairy Queen and even in a Wilmington Pizza Hut– that’s known as winning.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  19. I didn’t know that Biden was losing his temper and lashing out. That’s a symptom of Alzheimer’s (one that Trump also exhibits). If might be fun to ask them about what they did yesterday.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  20. They’ll certainly be fact-checking Trump afterwards, but other than Hannity, who will fact-check Biden?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  21. Now do Trump.
    Dana (292df6) — 9/29/2020 @ 1:53 pm

    Of course!!

    Trump will:

    proclaim he is the greatest president in US history;

    take credit for the COVID relief bill (bonus: he will call it “beautiful);

    blame the Deep State cabal for keeping him to make even more beautiful progress;

    call the pre-COVID economic gains the greatest in history

    talk about how great his SS deferral program is;

    make fun of Biden straight to his face.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  22. @19. ‘Look, man, here’s the deal:’ Biden has a long history of having a short fuse.

    Besides– he’s Irish. And Catholic.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  23. I didn’t know that Biden was losing his temper and lashing out. That’s a symptom of Alzheimer’s (one that Trump also exhibits). If might be fun to ask them about what they did yesterday.
    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/29/2020 @ 2:01 pm

    https://twitter.com/tylerpager/status/1300530456539127809?lang=en

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  24. @23. Trump could list the rallies and presser he has done.

    OTOH, Biden would have no answer– because he literally did nothing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  25. How the msm view’s tonight’s debate:

    https://twitter.com/dannowicki/status/1311039188041494528?s=20
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  26. It would be amusing if Wallace asked Biden about the bankruptcy bill he championed and shepherded through Congress and how Trump took advantage of it- loopholes and all.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  27. Dustin–

    Convince me that the Democrat Party is fit to govern. What I see is a party pretending, for the moment, not to be hard left authoritarians. But once they get power, watch out!

    Biden’s announced tax policies would lead to a rapid liquidation of all gains before the next tax year, cratering the market and the economy. Why you are letting the utterly cosmetic tax/business embarrassments of Donald Trump make you throw caution to the wind is beyond me.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  28. The Babylon Bee
    @TheBabylonBee

    CNN Pre-Debate Poll Shows Biden Clearly Won Debate

    Biden 98%
    Trump 2%
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  29. @24. Hillary Clinton Leads Donald Trump by 14 Points: Poll | Time

    time.com/4546942/hillary-clinton-donald-trump…

    Hillary Clinton has widened her lead over Donald Trump, polling 14 percentage points ahead nationally, according to a new Associated Press-GfK poll, which comes 12 days before the presidential election.

    Yes, and Dewey defeated Truman, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  30. BTW, at this point Trump has nothing to lose by releasing his taxes for the last 20 years.

    1) He cannot do worse than having tidbits of the returns doled out by his enemies as they wish.

    2) If the information they have is seriously wrong (e.g. they are using work product and not the final returns), then he gains by making them look like stupid liars.

    3) Even if it is correct, he and his supporters can point to other things (one year $750, another year $200M) that provide context. As it is, only the people at the NY Times are providing context, and they have no reason to help Trump.

    4) He doesn’t have to listen to the “why haven’t you released your returns?” crap a day longer.

    And then he sues the NY Times for breach of privacy, with a billion-dollar damage claim, and demands they produce their source in discovery.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  31. Any chance Biden tries to smell Trump’s hair… and Trump lets him?

    whembly (c30c83)

  32. More pre-debate polling:

    Cook Political Report-
    Electoral College Rating Changes: Ohio and Iowa Move to Toss Up

    New Survey Results From KFF/Cook Political Report Survey in AZ, Fl, and NC. AZ Moves to Lean Dem

    ………While Trump carried all three states in 2016, he is not leading in any of these states today. Trump and Biden are essentially tied in Florida (Trump 42%, Biden’s 43%) and NC (Trump 43%, Biden 45%). However, in Arizona, Biden has opened up a more substantial lead (Biden 45%, Trump 40%). A Biden win in Arizona would mean that he could afford to lose Michigan or Wisconsin (two of “Blue Wall” consortium) and still eke out an Electoral College win (assuming that he wins all the states Hillary Clinton carried in 2016). Biden could even afford to lose Pennsylvania and still win the Electoral College with a combination of Arizona and Nebraska’s 2nd CD.……

    Fox News-Ohio Poll: Biden/Harris 50%, Trump/Pence 45%

    NYT-If Race Comes Down to Omaha, Poll Shows Biden Has an Edge
    In a close race, the presidential election could be decided by an unlikely spot: Nebraska’s Second Congressional District, including Omaha and most of its suburbs.

    If the race is decided there, Joe Biden appears to have the advantage, according to a New York Times/Siena College poll Monday. He leads President Trump by seven points, 48 percent to 41 percent, among likely voters in the first nonpartisan survey of the district so far this year, according to FiveThirtyEight.…….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  33. All the NY Times has is a right to publish without prior restraint. They are NOT immune to damages.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  34. Any chance Biden tries to smell Trump’s hair… and Trump lets him?

    It would funny if he gave it to him.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  35. Never forget- Joe Biden hasn’t lived in Scranton, Pennsylvania for 67 years.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  36. @30-
    Yawn. As I have said before, different candidates, different electorate, different time. You and Hoi seem stuck in 2016.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  37. DCSCA-
    Wake me up when you have polling showing Trump ahead in 2020.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  38. @35. Even funnier if he gave him Lindsey Graham’s cellphone number.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  39. @38. Sleep ’til Election night, Rip Van Murdock. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  40. Yawn. As I have said before, different candidates, different electorate, different time. You and Hoi seem stuck in 2016.
    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/29/2020 @ 2:23 pm

    Biden enthusiasts seem stuck in 2012, the last time Biden somewhat made sense.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  41. Good news from the Biden campaign; Joe agrees w/SCOTUS: Nixon must turn over the tapes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  42. This probably couldn’t happen in a million years, but imagine if Donald Trump came out relaxed, restrained, in good humor, and — dare we suggest it? — gracious. What if instead of various wisecracks and phony-baloney facts he just parried Joe Biden’s thrusts with retorts like, “We tried it your way for eight years, Joe; it didn’t go over well at all,” and “I know Joe wants to think of himself as a centrist, but I just don’t see him being able to hold back his party’s insurgents who appear to want to turn the entire country into Portland or Minneapolis.”

    So I’m not going to watch, and I don’t really think I want to read much about the aftermath.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  43. Dustin–

    Convince me that the Democrat Party is fit to govern.

    I’m convinced they aren’t. Look how they handle local, state, and national issues. Everything is for the headlines, nothing is for the results.

    However, Trump’s gotta go. He’s crossed too many lines for me. His comments about the election, transition of power, that on its own is way more than enough. His conduct regarding Russia and the investigation of his activities, or his weird foreign policy decisions, that’s also enough.

    Will Kamala be a good president? No. But Trump’s gotta go all the same. There will always be a leftward consequence, but let’s stop digging.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  44. Biden refuses drug test and check for ear pieces.

    asset (61c0b6)

  45. For God’s sake he has had multiple brain surgeries. You think they were drilling for oil or just rooting the hair plugs??!! Or maybe just installing a wireless remote.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/29/2020 @ 1:46 pm

    Any time I say Alexa near him he does get confused.

    Both these guys are past their mental prime, but Biden’s hundreds of millions more successful in real estate than Trump.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  46. In the interest of avoiding the tiresome back-and-forth on polls, can we all agree that there is nothing wrong with a commenter here posting the results of whatever the latest polls report, just as there is nothing wrong with a commenter here dismissing those results based upon what happened four years ago? Let’s all keep in mind that we have tens of millions of voters who will be facing new ways of casting their vote and none of us for sure know what’s going to happen with that.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  47. Where do you park your helicopters?

    I don’t have as nice a car as my neighbors. I also don’t owe Ford any money.

    You might think these possessions show Trump’s success, but they actually only show us Trump’s desperation to appear bigger than he is.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  48. imagine if Donald Trump came out relaxed, restrained, in good humor, and — dare we suggest it? — gracious.

    If Trump improved himself, he would win a landslide. It’s that bad these days.

    But the reason such a thing would be profound is because it’s so out of character.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  49. Biden ran for the office in 1988 and 2008, both times he dropped out pretty quickly, never making it past Iowa. Now, aged and infirm, he’s the party’s hope? America’s hope?! It makes you want to weep.

    The Democrat Party is really tired. And what is coming up behind the dying old guard is nowhere near the American mainstream. The only luck they’ve had was that the GOP got hijacked by a loud rich idiot. But some day Trump will be gone, and the GOP’s deep bench remains.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  50. Biden’s announced tax policies would lead to a rapid liquidation of all gains before the next tax year, cratering the market and the economy. Why you are letting the utterly cosmetic tax/business embarrassments of Donald Trump make you throw caution to the wind is beyond me.

    Do you think there’s any limit to our ability to borrow money to spend?

    The government ran a $3.3 trillion dollar deficit in the last FY. That was a factor of three higher than the huge $1.1T deficit in the “normal” year before. Is it reasonable to suppose that additional revenue will never be required to pay for that?

    Even in the middle of “the best economy in history”, the deficit has grown every year since Trump took office. And the debt piles higher and higher.

    Dave (1bb933)

  51. imagine if Donald Trump came out relaxed, restrained, in good humor, and — dare we suggest it? — gracious.

    “Here, Joe, let me help you over to your podium.”
    “There you go again!”
    “For all of you who think I lost a lot of money in past years, wait’ll you see what Covid did to my hotels!”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  52. Trump gets third Nobel Peace Prize nomination.

    I’ll have the shrimp cocktail.” – Joe Biden 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  53. Both these guys are past their mental prime, but Biden’s hundreds of millions more successful in real estate than Trump.
    Dustin (4237e0) — 9/29/2020 @ 2:34 pm

    It is truly amazing how a career public servant got so rich.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  54. Disney to lay off 28,000 workers [many part timers] at their theme parks. Cosiderin how much they charge to eet in, about time.No salary cuts to execs I the dark-suit uniforms.

    Mousewitz: “the happiest place on Earth.”

    Not.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  55. Biden enthusiasts seem stuck in 2012, the last time Biden somewhat made sense.

    Not a Biden enthusiast, I’m not voting for either candidate.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  56. @47-
    Well said.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  57. @56. Mastering irrelevancy. It is the conservative thing to do these days. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  58. Not a Biden enthusiast, I’m not voting for either candidate.

    The Biden enthusiasts are getting a head start on not owning their enthusiasm.

    beer ‘n pretzels (134835)

  59. @43. JVW- do Trek.

    Relaxed with Tribbles and Doomsday Machine this afternoon.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  60. Do you think there’s any limit to our ability to borrow money to spend?

    We don’t have an income problem. We just always spend 10% more than what we take in. Spend less. EVERY TIME they raise taxes, the next words out of their mouths are “what can we sped it on?” When the economy is up, they start new ongoing programs with the excess, then need to fund them when revenues fall. Eff that.

    There are a few departments that outta go, or be cut down to the Department of Other Stuff: Energy, Commerce, Labor, Education, Agriculture, HUD. Keep the needful bits and pieces (e.g. USPTO, Census, meat inspection). Maybe add a Department of Science to accumulate some of those scattered bits like NOAA, NSF, etc). Then cut back/consolidate the giant regulatory agencies of the 70’s.

    There are other places, too. Military, farm supports, etc.

    Not that we will. Biden’s folks have a long list of NEW spending: “free” college, cancelling student loans, boosting social security, Medicare for all. The list is endless.

    When in reality we should be devolving power and tasks back to the states.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  61. And what is coming up behind the dying old guard is nowhere near the American mainstream.

    The mainstream is a moving target.

    Republicans have won the popular vote in just one out of the last seven presidential elections.

    The senate majority stacking the courts represents less than 45% of the population.

    They have arguably become the party of minority rule. Trump’s only hope for re-election is to win despite getting millions of votes less than Biden.

    A poll out yesterday found a record number (54%) think the government should do more to solve problems:

    Amid the historic COVID-19 pandemic, most Americans say the federal government should do more to solve its greatest problems — a majority call for help that’s been extremely rare over the past few decades.

    In a survey Monday, the pollster asked adults in all 50 states and Washington, D.C., whether the federal government is trying to do too much, or if it needs to do more to solve the largest problems.

    The poll showed that 54% said it needs to do more.

    Gallup said the survey marked the greatest majority since it first asked the question in 1992.

    Forty-one percent said the government is doing too much.

    The figure is 7 points higher than it was last year and 20 points higher than the share in 2012, when just 34% called for more action.

    Since 1992, the figure has reached 50% only one other time — shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, when exactly half said the government should do more.

    To be clear, I don’t think ANY of these trends are encouraging. They are deeply troubling.

    Dave (1bb933)

  62. It describes that US Intel agencies had info that Hillary Clinton, in the summer of 2016, had authorized a PLAN as part of the campaign to link Trump to Russian activity re DNC hack, and this info was forwarded to Comey and Strzok…that Brennan debriefed the Obama/Biden Whitehouse.

    This tells you exactly how much a hack like Ratcliffe has politicized his turf, and it’s detestable. Politico:

    The assessment claims that Hillary Clinton, then a Democratic candidate for president, personally approved an effort “to stir up a scandal against U.S. Presidential candidate Donald Trump by tying him to Putin and the Russians’ hacking of the Democratic National Committee.” But in his letter to Graham, Ratcliffe noted that the U.S. intelligence community “does not know the accuracy of this allegation or the extent to which the Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration or fabrication.”
    The Senate Intelligence Committee issued five reports on Russia’s sweeping effort to meddle in the 2016 election to boost Trump, ranging across thousands of pages. The panel was made aware of that allegation early on in its investigation, and quickly dismissed it, the sources said.

    This kind of Putinesque propaganda is why Trump needs to lose and why Ratcliffe needs to go back to the rock that he crawled out of.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  63. We don’t have an income problem.

    Actually we do.

    Government in the US (at all levels) spends a considerably smaller fraction of our GDP than other large developed countries. But the revenue is off-the-scale low. I posted the numbers here. Executive summary:

    Spending as % of GDP:
    US: 35.1%
    Australia: 36.7%
    Japan: 37.1%
    Canada: 40.7%
    EU Average: 44.7%

    And remember that a much bigger chunk of ours is military spending.

    Government Revenue as % of GDP:
    US: 29.5%
    Japan: 33.9%
    Australia: 35.8%
    Canada: 40.3%
    EU Average: 45.3%

    Deficit as % of GDP:
    US: -5.7%
    Japan: -3.2%
    Australia: -0.8%
    EU Average: -0.6%
    Canada: -0.4%

    There are a few departments that outta go, or be cut down to the Department of Other Stuff: Energy, Commerce, Labor, Education, Agriculture, HUD. Keep the needful bits and pieces (e.g. USPTO, Census, meat inspection). Maybe add a Department of Science to accumulate some of those scattered bits like NOAA, NSF, etc). Then cut back/consolidate the giant regulatory agencies of the 70’s.

    None of that will make a noticeable difference in the deficit.

    Eliminating ALL non-defense discretionary spending would not come close to balancing the budget (pre-COVID).

    Dave (1bb933)

  64. It is truly amazing how a career public servant got so rich.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124) — 9/29/2020 @ 2:42 pm

    LOL you missed the joke.

    You’re also hundreds of millions more successful than Trump at real estate.

    He loses more money than any of us will make, month after month. I have no doubt any commenter here would do better in business than this incredible loser.

    I have no idea what Biden’s wealth is. You’re right they all get rich it seems. But Biden’s a much more open book than Trump. Most of the claims about him are from weird Russian nonsense on Facebook. If you want to read Biden’s tax returns you can. He released them. Trump’s the public servant hiding where his money comes from. Hundreds of millions Trump has to pay back, apparently with no income for half a generation.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  65. This kind of Putinesque propaganda is why Trump needs to lose and why Ratcliffe needs to go back to the rock that he crawled out of.
    Paul Montagu (77c694) — 9/29/2020 @ 3:20 pm

    The Steele Dossier was propaganda but Democrats and the MSM spent years telling us it was all truth.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  66. The Steele Dossier was propaganda but Democrats and the MSM spent years telling us it was all truth.

    Quite a bit of it was.

    Dave (1bb933)

  67. @67

    Biden should demand they test Trump for tachyons to see whether he violated the Temporal Prime Directive.

    Dave (1bb933)

  68. It’s kind of amazing that Trump is simply unwilling to come out “relaxed, restrained, in good humor, and — dare we suggest it? — gracious,” even if it means helping him over the finish line to an election victory. He would see such behavior as weak and for losers. He’s going to go in for the kill because in his mind, that’s what strongmen do, and that’s who he is in his own eyes. Sad!

    Dana (292df6)

  69. it’s fascinating how many connections flow through here,

    https://apelbaum.wordpress.com/

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  70. imagine if Donald Trump came out relaxed, restrained, in good humor, and — dare we suggest it? — gracious.

    If he does, then Biden would be the one demanding a drug test.

    And DNA too.

    Dave (1bb933)

  71. Biden demands??

    Tapioca! Enough with the jello.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  72. @71. You mean like wristwatch looker GHWB?

    That went well.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  73. even if it means helping him over the finish line to an election victory. He would see such behavior as weak and for losers.

    They said he wanted to cut back on the debate preparation this time because he was annoyed that his advisers got too much credit for his performance in 2016.

    Dave (1bb933)

  74. Republicans have won the popular vote in just one out of the last seven presidential elections.

    The senate majority stacking the courts represents less than 45% of the population.

    They have arguably become the party of minority rule. Trump’s only hope for re-election is to win despite getting millions of votes less than Biden.

    Dave, fess up man. You’re a Democrat now.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  75. What I would really like to see is two obviously impaired old guys clearly unable to do the job. Because that’s what we really have.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  76. America needs to see Joe Biden eat Scranton Scrapple.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  77. 61. “Department of Other Stuff”

    That used to be State, then Treasury, then Interior and after that it was kind of split.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  78. Quite a bit of it was.
    Dave (1bb933) — 9/29/2020 @ 4:10 pm

    You realize court documents and FOIA requests show that Steele’s primary “subsource” was a drunk Russian that the Obama administration deemed a spy?

    And that none of the details that supposedly showed Trump in cahoots with the Russians – as well as the salacious pee tape – have been corroborated.

    You realize that, right?

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  79. UPDATE BY PATTERICO: I’ll try to be active in the comments. Let’s keep it friendly! Biden did make this joke on Twitter:

    Patterico (115b1f)

  80. Dave, fess up man. You’re a Democrat now.

    Recovering Republican.

    Dave (1bb933)

  81. @82. What makes you believe he was joking? 😉

    “I’ll have the shrimp cocktail.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  82. Some of Donald Trump’s debate prep:

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-press-briefing-september-27-2020

    This is really the case. These questions from reporters were deate prep. Donald Trump can;’t gear himself up unless it matters. He can’t do rehearsals.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/27/us/politics/trump-biden-debate-expectations.html

    In recent weeks, as Mr. Biden has pulled down his campaign schedule to spend time in debate prep sessions in Delaware, Mr. Trump has practiced mostly on the go. He and his campaign aides have discussed how to raise the most uncomfortable issues for Mr. Biden, like the sexual assault allegations made against him by Tara Reade, even casually discussing bringing her to the debate, and personal attacks about Mr. Biden’s son Hunter.

    His aides have compiled for him a 30-page binder filled with bullet points. Instead of regular, formal sessions, aides traveling with him to rallies or official events have used time on the plane to pepper him with questions.

    He has had a few meetings in the Oval Office, where he has talked through the debate with advisers and aides, including former Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey and his advisers Hope Hicks, Jason Miller and Stephen Miller, as well as his campaign manager, Bill Stepien, according to several people familiar with the get-togethers. At least one more prep session was expected to take place over the weekend.

    Mr. Trump has never favored formal debate prep with mock-ups at lecterns and instead, in 2016, preferred to tell war stories and vent about what was on his mind. His opponent that year, Hillary Clinton, received a bump in the polls after each of the three debates.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  83. You realize court documents and FOIA requests show that Steele’s primary “subsource” was a drunk Russian that the Obama administration deemed a spy?

    Not exactly news that Steele’s sources were Russians with backgrounds similar to his.

    And that none of the details that supposedly showed Trump in cahoots with the Russians – as well as the salacious pee tape – have been corroborated.

    You realize that, right?

    Carter Page met with one of the Russians the dossier claimed. Manafort was bought and paid for by Putin, exactly as described. The pee tape has not been corroborated.

    Dave (1bb933)

  84. Biden did make this joke on Twitter:

    I think you mean one of his twenty-something interns. No way Biden knows what the earbuds are; probably thinks his protection detail left them there while stealing his ice cream.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  85. Carter Page met with one of the Russians the dossier claimed.

    You mean Carter Page, the CIA source?

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  86. Top 10 Best Scrapple in Scranton, PA

    https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=scrapple&find_loc=Scranton%2C+PA

    Reviews on Scrapple in Scranton, PA – Viewmont Diner, Buck Town Diner, Marie’s Diner, Julie’s Cozy Cafe’, The Avenue, D’s Diner, Delish On Main…

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  87. Earpieces, like professional broadcasters have, would actually not make sense. He wouldn’t be able to listen both to the voice in his ear and what is going on on stage. Usually the broadcasters get told little messages not directly related to what’s happening and it does distract, slightly.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  88. Here’s another recent Biden tweet.

    I don’t need an earpiece to wax patriotic, live. I’ve been training for this for months. We got, and this is actual, we got a wealthy toddler hopped up on sugary drinks and had him yell at me for two hours every weeknight. That toddler said some hurtful things. Hurtful things.

    I’m not feeling optimistic about his chances.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  89. Folks: make sure the record player is on tonight…

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  90. @91. Biden ear-waxes?

    Another gaffe.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  91. @91 and @93

    Trump was afraid he might get a cue-tip from his handlers.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  92. It’s not Biden who does not know what earbuds are, because those are not earbuds, they are wired earpieces, and I had one for my pocket transistor radio, AM and FM, in 1971.

    nk (1d9030)

  93. By varying degrees, the Steele reports were…
    verified
    debunked
    not verified
    not verifiable

    Steele got right Manafort’s corruption, Carter Page’s trip to Moscow, and the hacking.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  94. You mean Carter Page, the CIA source?

    Yes, Carter Page who the Russians had identified, on tape, as a potential asset.

    You do realize that “CIA sources” are among the most desirable targets for an adversary to recruit, and have been turned in the past, right?

    Dave (1bb933)

  95. We got, and this is actual, we got a wealthy toddler hopped up on sugary drinks

    OANN EXCLUSIVE BIDEN ADMITS CHILD ABUSE

    Dave (1bb933)

  96. -Clinton started the hoax, Trump will finish it.

    mg (8cbc69)

  97. Biden did make this joke on Twitter

    You know as well as anyone there’s zero chance he came up with any part of that joke, or tweeted it out.

    beer ‘n pretzels (134835)

  98. Good to see Biden mocking Trump’s idiocy. I hope he does it all night.

    Dave (1bb933)

  99. ‘…hopped up on sugary drinks?’

    Diet Coke?

    Sugary?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRZofakC2Nw

    Yo’re gonna drink it just for the taste of it!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP30ph6jcHE

    “Hello Joe, what do ya know?”

    Nothing– about living.

    _______

    Have you noticed how ‘familiar’ if not comfortable Biden is w/drug usage terms?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  100. Deezy-eska is mocking the Biden parody account.

    Glorious.

    Dave (1bb933)

  101. You do realize that “CIA sources” are among the most desirable targets for an adversary to recruit, and have been turned in the past, right?
    Dave (1bb933) — 9/29/2020 @ 5:20 pm

    Do you have proof that Page was turned? You realize the FBI received FISA-authorized surveillance of Page on multiple occasions (received wrongly, of course) and found…nothing.

    So we now know the Steele Dossier was lying about Page, too.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  102. Here’s what Trump might say about Biden being corrupt – because he said it Sunday:

    ….And related or unrelated, Hunter Biden got three and a half million dollars from the wife of the mayor of Moscow. Why did he get three and a half million dollars? And then he got millions more than we thought from Ukraine, and he got millions more than we heard about from China. Hunter Biden — “Where’s Hunter?

    Trump has got some of his facts all mixed up:

    Q Christina Bobb from OAN. Thank you for the briefing. You spoke earlier about some of the subjects that Joe Biden has been refusing to answer questions on, specifically Hunter Biden and his involvement with Russia, the Ukraine, even China.

    THE PRESIDENT: Incredible.

    Q And then the Obamagate —

    THE PRESIDENT: And the press doesn’t ask those questions. It’s incredible.

    Q I’m wondering — the debate is coming up this week. Do you anticipate Joe Biden being held to task? And will he be able to answer those questions at the debate?

    THE PRESIDENT: I don’t know. I mean, we’re going to find out, because a lot things are going to come up in the debate. That may be one. I mean, the son didn’t have a job. [He actually worked as a lobbyist and so on. In 2019, after he left the board of Burisma, he didn’t have a job. -SF] He had some big difficulties. ]Women and drugs with a little alcohol thrown it SF] And then, all of the sudden, he’s making millions of dollars as soon as his father becomes Vice President. [Big time happened later -SF]

    No, I think that’ll come up. I don’t think — I don’t think Joe can answer it, frankly. I think there’s only one reason he made all that money. [To prevent Hunter Biden from creating a scandal for his father. The Russians didn’t have to tell Joe Biden that. Hunter Biden was a problem and a cocaine addict. Beau Biden and his father tried to send Hunter into the military in 2013 – they actually did it, pulled strings – to take care of that but it didn’t work. He failed a drug test and was discharged. The money Hunter got wasn’t only spent on drugs. It was also spent on women. Strippers and also more serious relationships. – SF]

    And then you have to say, “What about Joe’s involvement? And why did Joe not give the billion dollars over to Ukraine, as an example, until such time as they let go of a prosecutor that was investigating the company that his son was involved with?” [Only he was not investigating the company. But Joe Biden, on January 23, 2018, probably lied about his getting the prosecutor fired. This is the accusation in connection with that Donald Trump impeached over. SF]

    I mean, there are some bad questions. I don’t think they have answers. And if we had a media that was fair — even just reasonable — this would be the biggest story for years and years and years. Then you’d really be entitled to real Pulitzer Prizes, not the fake committee that gives you these fake awards.

    So, I mean, it’s a really fair question. But it’s hard to believe, when you see the kind of money that he has made from China, from Russia, where the wife of the mayor of Moscow gives him three and half million dollars and nobody even has any question about it.

    Why did he get three and half million dollars? I’ll tell you why: Because Joe Biden was in on it. [Well, that was because Putin favored Joe Biden over Hillary Clinton in 2014-5. – SF] Joe was in on it. There’s no way that he wasn’t. And uses Joe Biden’s plane — Air Force Two. Uses Joe — and they go to China, and then he comes back, and he never mentioned it to his father that he just got a billion and a half dollars? [His father didn’t want to know such things – only maybe that he was confident he was not breaking the law. Joe Biden believed not knowing what members of his family were doing shielded him from accusations. – SF]

    And now it’s turning out that it’s much more money than that, Rudy. It’s turned out to be much more money from China. They have — a member of the Chinese Communist Party gave him a lot of money. And the press has no interest in these stories. It’s — it’s just — it’s very disheartening for the people of our country.

    Please.

    Q Mr. President, if he tries to dodge the questions or doesn’t address them head on, are you prepared with the facts and information to answer that for the American people?

    THE PRESIDENT: Well, I have all the information. It just came out. I mean, I didn’t know about Moscow — three and a half million dollars from the mayor’s wife. I didn’t know about that.

    And he’s a very influential, powerful man in Russia, as you know. [Or at least he was before he died -SF] And it wasn’t me; I didn’t have anything to do with Russia. That came out loud and clear.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  103. Recovering Republican.

    Sooner or later it will be a recovering party.

    Andy Jackson’s influence extended to his successor (VP Van Buren), but after that it was a different party. One of the reasons that the Whigs (#NeverJackson) folded up once there was not Jackson.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  104. Do you have proof that Page was turned? You realize the FBI received FISA-authorized surveillance of Page on multiple occasions (received wrongly, of course) and found…nothing.

    I never said he was turned…

    You suggested that being a CIA source was somehow relevant to the truth of the dossier.

    Dave (1bb933)

  105. @101. As if it is second nature to Plagiarist JoeyBee… or “borrowed”:

    “Hmm. Sometimes I can’t help admiring how effortlessly you do it, captain. Almost as if it came naturally.” – Commander Allison [Michael Kane] ‘The Bedford Incident’ 1965

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  106. The owner of privat bank also headed burisma, when the former collapsed 6 billi9m dollars went with it. This is was shukin was investigating, as with his successor

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  107. @103. Parody–or plagiarized?

    Glorious indeed.

    ‘Introducing Diet Coke…’ for low-cal snorting, eh JoeyBee? Ask Hunter…

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  108. If Biden shows up, in command, and is able to hold his own in the face of Trump’s bombast and boorish behavior, Trump will lose in a landslide.

    OTOH, if he’s unable to cope very well, he’ll have to rely on Trump being such a jerk it doesn’t matter.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  109. Trump on Sunday:

    And Bloomberg likewise shouldn’t be paying for prisoners to go — in Florida — go and vote, because he’s basically paying — which is totally illegal — going and paying prisoners. I hope he hasn’t done it yet.

    No, ex-prisoners. Who have served their sentence and everything.

    Michael Bloomberg set aside $16 million to pay fines pr accumulated court costs of people in Florida who may be removed from the polling list because they haven’t paid court costs etc. Something Florida wasn’t interested in collecting until they figured it could limit the damage to the Republican Party from the felon voting referendum.

    Are you allowed to go tell people that, “Go vote. I’m going to pay off your tab”? [Yes, they can. They can;t force them to vote, of course, or vote for Biden.]

    MR. CHRISTIE: You surely can’t buy votes, that’s for sure.

    THE PRESIDENT: Yeah, because that’s what it is. I mean, it’s a very serious — a very serious charge.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  110. Damn, those Diet Coke commercials are great.

    So full of life– eh JoeyBee?!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  111. They want the felons to vote so they can steel the last bit of our liberties,

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  112. 106. The whigs actually won two elections, but didn’t benefit from them, because the president died and the vice president wasn’t really a Whig. And the second president they elected, Zachary Taylor, may have=ve been murdered, but not with arsenic. How crazy a notion! With germs.

    He got cholera and somebody familiar with the latest medical thinking in England maybe did that on purpose.

    One thing is certain: Zachary Taylor’s death made possible the Compromise of 1850. Which historians like to say postponed the Civil War but maybe it actually caused it.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  113. CSPAN coverage is great– no talking heads, no spin, just pan and zooms into the assembled audience and the introductions.

    It’s the best way to watch this.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  114. Just reading those comments by Trump to the Putin Fake News, that Sammy quoted, gives me PTSD. Poor Parscale.

    nk (1d9030)

  115. 1840: Harrison/Tyler (W) *
    1844: Polk (D)
    1848: Tyler/Fillmore (W) *
    1852: Pierce (D) *
    1856: Buchanan (D) *

    * 6 of the bottom 10 presidents
    Polk is rated somewhere around #10

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  116. 1848: Taylor not Tyler

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  117. 31. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/29/2020 @ 2:18 pm

    BTW, at this point Trump has nothing to lose by releasing his taxes for the last 20 years.

    He can lose $100 million because exact details would enable a Democratic Congress to draft legislation that would force him to return the $72 million in refunds, with interest, without affecting anybody else they care about.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  118. Only ten states don’t allow felons who have completed their sentences to vote. The other forty plus DC do.

    DeSantis is betting that there are fewer pro-Trump felons than there are pro-Biden felons, just like he’s betting that there are fewer pro-Trump old people who will die from Covid than there are pro-Biden old people who will die from Covid before the election.

    nk (1d9030)

  119. Which network is less terrible?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  120. Here;s more from Trump on Sunday:

    ….We have noticed some comments made in the media about my incredibly qualified nominee, Amy. The New York Times said her religion is not consistent with American values. She’s Catholic. That covers a lot of people. That’s a very disgraceful thing to say.

    Some of the comedians — I don’t think they’re comedians because comedians are supposed to be funny; they’re not funny, like, at all. They’re nasty. They’re mean. And they think they’re funny. And someday — hopefully, it’s in five years — but someday, when I’m not here, they’re going to be off television because their ratings, which aren’t very good anyway, but their ratings are going to go down like you’ve never seen before. That includes a lot of others also.

    In fact, I’m sort of waiting for the New York Times and the Washington Post, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSDNC — I’m waiting for them to endorse me, because if they don’t, they’re going to drop with a thud like — you know, it was supposed to have happened long ago, and then we won a race, and it was a great — it was a great victory.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  121. PBS.

    nk (1d9030)

  122. This is was shukin was investigating, as with his successor

    Except there’s no evidence Shokin and Lutsenko were investigating Burisma.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  123. CSPAN is best.

    It’s like being there.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  124. He can lose $100 million because exact details would enable a Democratic Congress to draft legislation that would force him to return the $72 million in refunds, with interest, without affecting anybody else they care about.

    Yes, they can. They could even pass a law doubling his tax back 20 years. At least as far as current precedent is concerned. I think it could be called a taking though. I also think it would be a huge slap in the face of the Rule of Law.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  125. CSPAN is best.

    CSPAN doesn’t stream.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  126. My. Tiffany and Ivanka are looking very slutty tonight.

    The guys off the third shift at Firestone in an Akron bar- and all of Moon Township, PA, will be happy with that after a few boilermakers.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  127. I’m going with ABC for now. They’re at least talking about the issues.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  128. And we’re fixing to get ready to start.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  129. No ‘booze’ in the hall?

    O.M.G. The tri-tipped 1956 hankie.

    It’s over.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  130. CSPAN doesn’t stream.

    If you have a cable subscription you can watch it online or on the app.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  131. Don’t look down Joe.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  132. Biden’s hair has been enhanced. Fluffed.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  133. Bad tie for television, Joe.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  134. Biden not opposed to Amy.

    Gaffe 1.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  135. CSPAN doesn’t stream.
    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/29/2020 @ 6:02 pm

    I don’t have cable, and I am streaming c-span right now.

    felipe (023cc9)

  136. “I am the Democratic party now.”

    O.M.G.

    No miracle is coming.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  137. This is a complete shitshow

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  138. “Of the 200,000 people who died…many survived”

    Smooth move, Joe.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  139. Biden’s hair has been enhanced.

    A long time ago.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  140. Wallace is nervous– his voice is quivering.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  141. Chris Wallace has lost control.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  142. @142- like an hour. It’s been fluffed up.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  143. Biden’s hair has been enhanced. Fluffed.

    That’s fluféed.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  144. @144. He’s trying to run it like his Sunday show

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  145. Trump is incoherent on health care.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  146. @148. No, he’s making sense–it’s Biden who just chuckles.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  147. Here’s the deal 3 times…

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  148. 5 times- Here’s the deal…

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  149. Folk- clown???

    MODERATOR!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  150. This is hilarious.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  151. 15 minutes in and Biden has called Trump a liar and a clown.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  152. Biden is going to walk out.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  153. Where’s the moderator?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  154. @155. Somu for going behind the gym and beating the crap out of him 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  155. “I wont take a position.” Joe Biden.

    “Will you shut up, man?”

    Stay classy, Scranton Boy.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  156. This is a complete mess. Wallace needs to assert a little more control.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  157. Boy, Biden is sure out of it.

    *gigglesnort*

    Dave (1bb933)

  158. Wallace has lost control of this.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  159. @160. Most incoherent people are.

    No answers, just catchphrases. He hasn’t answered anything.

    And yes he’ll have the shrimp cocktail.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  160. Bidn won’t even look at him. Somebody is talking it his ear.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  161. O.M.G. The ‘bring out your dead’ line, Joe???

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  162. Joe needs some tapioca

    mg (8cbc69)

  163. Every time Biden looks down he has the casket repose look.

    Inject bleach, Joe? Howzabout Rogaine?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  164. First time he was asked to take a stand, Slow Joe declined.

    What a wimp.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  165. @165. LOL

    A plagiarist lecturing America on lies.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  166. “there the people by the way”
    joe biden

    mg (8cbc69)

  167. LOL. “Don’t you use the word ‘smart’ with me”

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  168. @167. You noticed that…

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  169. He won’t commit to anything.

    Shush??? My grandmother used that term.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  170. The loser tonight is Chris Wallace.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  171. Biden has that politician smile. The kind that makes paint peel.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  172. where with all given is how to open a business
    joe biden
    malarkey

    mg (8cbc69)

  173. Nobody shows up to Joe’s events.

    Trump’s right.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  174. Debating the virus is like arguing over thunderstorms.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  175. I don’t think any moderator can handle Trump.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  176. 3 people joe/ 6 circles/2020

    mg (8cbc69)

  177. Adjusting your wiring there, Joe?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  178. hair plugs are not enough for ear plugs joe

    mg (8cbc69)

  179. Remember: Joe Biden has not lived in Scranaton, PA for 67 years.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  180. Biden is doing the Hillary Chortle.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  181. Where are the questions to Biden about plagiarism, Chris?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  182. Oo, The tax question is a bad one for Trump, flushed and sweaty on that one. A lot of angry going on.

    Nic (896fdf)

  183. Trump says he paid millions of dollars in 2016. That is a lie.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  184. No Joe.

    Richard Nixon is the worst president America has ever had.

    Have the shrimp cocktail.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  185. That is a lie.

    The NYT can prove it too.

    Dave (1bb933)

  186. @186. ROFLMAO Hold up your hat and it’ll fill w/lies in about 3 seconds.

    The big loser tonight is Wallace. He has lost complete control of this.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  187. Actually it isnt, if you had read alexia browns thread you would know that the lie

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  188. Biden’s hair transplant was successful, Trump’s was not. Emblematic.
    Trump spends $70,000 for his hairdo, Dr. Jill could probably clip Biden’s hair and it would look okay. Emblematic.

    nk (1d9030)

  189. Biden was asked to bring the economy back?????

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  190. Actually it isnt, if you had read alexia browns thread you would know that the lie

    Well, Trump has a simple way to see what he paid in taxes when. Why do you think he’s not doing that?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  191. China ate your lunch, Joe.

    Point Trump.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  192. “I’m a disrespectful, lying, solipsistic a-holes, so vote for me” is I’m sure a persuasive argument to people who think that’s exactly what they want in a president. I’m not sure how well it goes over with people who think honesty and decency matter.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  193. If Wallace had any balls he get up and leave these wo idiots alone for 5 minutes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  194. LOL. Biden now taking credit for Obama. Great way to ingratiate yourself to the left that already hates you, Joe.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  195. biden has someone in his ear

    mg (8cbc69)

  196. 47 years in the Senate. A mind of mush.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  197. Chris Wallace isn’t doing a great job as a moderator. Next time they should turn off the microphone of the person who isn’t talking.

    Nic (896fdf)

  198. @198. Likely, you can ‘see’ that through the eyes and facial expressions. He was adjusting something earlier, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  199. @40-
    Sleep ’til Election night, Rip Van Murdock.
    Cheers!

    Rip Murdock (631d7a)

  200. @200. Wallace should just get up and leave for five minutes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  201. Biden talking about bunkers isn’t smart

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  202. Black pandering Joe??

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  203. Hey slow Joe, you had better watch blaming all COVID deaths on Trump. Because if you inherit the White House, every COVID death is yours.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  204. The Ghost of Corn Pop has risen!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  205. Trump earns points for pointing out Biden isn’t committing to anything.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  206. @203 He’s almost already not there.

    Nic (896fdf)

  207. Biden- “I’ll form a committee.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  208. @209. True. He lost control in the first five minutes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  209. “ Trump says he paid millions of dollars in 2016. That is a lie.”
    __ _

    But those raising their hands had better review the article very closely, as the Times reported that in addition to the $750 paid each year, the president paid the U.S. Treasury an additional $1 million in 2016, and $4.2 million in 2017.”

    https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/09/28/trump-tax-return-story-includes-its-own-fact-check-he-paid-to-us-treasury-1-mil-in-2016-and-4-2-mil-in-2017-978256

    harkin (ea3da9)

  210. Trump is no racist, joe.

    mg (8cbc69)

  211. LOL. Biden says Irish Catholics are treated poorly.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  212. EARTH TO JOE- you DID NOT ‘grow up’ in Scranton. PA. You left Scranton 67 years ago!

    My grandmother grew up in Scranton.

    No winners tonight.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  213. Obfuscation.

    nk (1d9030)

  214. Wallace comparing Tulsa to Portland?

    You earned your money from the DNC.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  215. Tonight in a nutshell.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMsaVWaPenM

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  216. tulsa and ft. worth are the new chicago and L.A.
    Your full of schiff wallace

    mg (8cbc69)

  217. Black, white, Hispanic in the same car going to soccer practice?

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  218. Biden is Mr. Suburbia???

    What is he talking about?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  219. Biden’s answer to police defunding? Word salad.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  220. Doug Stafford
    @dougstafford

    Did Biden just call Chris Wallace “Jake” ?
    __ _

    Stephen L. Miller
    @redsteeze
    ·
    Yes.
    _ _

    Dogs love me
    @digisharon
    ·
    Jake’s the only guy in media that Joe talks to.
    __ _

    Birthday Party Stan Account
    @bdayparty2020
    ·
    Thinks Wallace is his State Farm agent
    __ _

    Conor Friedersdorf
    @conor64
    ·
    Chris Wallace is doing as well as any Boomer mediating between two septuagenarian Fox and MSNBC viewers could.

    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  221. 218 – Classic, DCSCA

    mg (8cbc69)

  222. According to my reliable sources who are watching the thing, Biden is winning yugely while Trump is acting like a little kid.

    nk (1d9030)

  223. Well, Biden’s clearly as mentally capable as Trump. Low bar but he’s clearing it so far. Can definitely tell where he’s hitting canned answers.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  224. I just want this insolent jackass gone.

    (I am talking about Trump, Trump fans.)

    Patterico (115b1f)

  225. Biden pulls a name out of the air….

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  226. biden has a nurse in wallace

    mg (8cbc69)

  227. Good question from Chris about what Joe has done as the leader of the Dem party.
    Oooh Biden got the name of trump staffer who trashed Trump wrong.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  228. EARTH TO JOE- you DID NOT ‘grow up’ in Scranton. PA. You left Scranton 67 years ago!

    Well, so he left when he was about 26 then?

    JVW (ee64e4)

  229. @212-From the NYT-

    Each time, he requested an extension to file his 1040; and each time, he made the required payment to the I.R.S. for income taxes he might owe — $1 million for 2016 and $4.2 million for 2017. But virtually all of that liability was washed away when he eventually filed, and most of the payments were rolled forward to cover potential taxes in future years.

    To cancel out the tax bills, Mr. Trump made use of $9.7 million in business investment credits, at least some of which related to his renovation of the Old Post Office hotel, which qualified for a historic-preservation tax break. Although he had more than enough credits to owe no taxes at all, his accountants appear to have carved out an allowance for a small tax liability for both 2016 and 2017.

    My emphasis.

    Rip Murdock (631d7a)

  230. @225. Natalie Wood never looked better- even in banana cream.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  231. @232. 10.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  232. Sorry, @213.

    Rip Murdock (631d7a)

  233. impeach him with pelosi and the commies

    mg (8cbc69)

  234. “There was unity going to happen…”

    Ha!

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  235. Biden has that ‘Exasperated Hillary’ look now.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  236. Trump again won’t say a thing about right wing Militia. He can’t do it. 😂

    Is he afraid of losing their support? Or is it just psychological on his part.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  237. This is a complete show.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  238. @225 They are operating two different strategies. Trump is being very very Trumpy on the idea that he needs to club Biden to death, but he’s not being terribly effective at it. Biden is focused on talking families at home and is being more effective at that.

    If you aren’t already a Trump supporter, this isn’t going to convince you of anything new. If you are a person who was wavering based on the idea that Biden was losing it, it may tip you over to Biden.

    Trump physically looks meaner, angrier, less in control.

    Nic (896fdf)

  239. (sorry, @226)

    Nic (896fdf)

  240. Trump again won’t say a thing about right wing Militia. He can’t do it. 😂

    Is he afraid of losing their support? Or is it just psychological on his part.
    Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/29/2020 @ 7:13 pm

    To be fair, Biden won’t say a thing about Antifa, either.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  241. Are you weaker, sicker, poorer now than you were four years ago?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  242. I think trumps bragging of judges is more likely to add Dem voters

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  243. Pie fight nearly over- Wallace asserts self.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  244. Biden lied about violence. FBI just released their stats; violent crime is going down, not up.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  245. Beau again???

    That’s it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  246. My son. My son. My son.

    Druggie.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  247. Biden was explicit about condemning left wing violence.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  248. I’d like you to talk about PLAGIARISM, Chris.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  249. Oh man, there is going to be a lot of whining tomorrow because Chris Wallace isn’t putting up with Trump’s bullshit.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  250. Rake those forest floors! Too bad many of the fires are on federal land.

    Rip Murdock (631d7a)

  251. “Proud Boys – stand back and stand by.”

    Davethulhu (62e67d)

  252. @241. See #219.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  253. Trump’s mking a mitake talking so much– he should let Biden go-a-gaffing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  254. Biden’s flipping on fracking again?!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  255. Thank you, Rip at 223. So the lying orange mother-figure made estimated payments (like withholding for normal people) and then got a yuge refund in April. That’s not paying millions.

    nk (1d9030)

  256. What trump knows about cars is less then he knows about forest management

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  257. Joe Scarborough
    @JoeNBC

    Hey @JoeBiden, don’t put up with this bullsh*t,. Walk off the stage.
    __ _

    Stephen L. Miller
    @redsteeze

    Definitely take advice from the guy who turned his show over to Trump for 6 months.
    __ _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  258. Biden’s answer is better about cars, but bad

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  259. “stop tearing down the forest”

    not the same as “tear down that wall”

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  260. Biden is starting to stutter.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  261. I like how Biden insinuating a trade war – at the minimum – with Brazil over logging.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  262. BTW, even with all the Steele dossier references from *some people* seemingly on every thread, I just this minute got the joke in Biden’s “urine” remark. Heh! Yes, Trump likes urine.

    nk (1d9030)

  263. Millions of good paying jobs to weatherize?

    Sign me up – I’d love to make a lot of money putting down caulk!

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  264. I just want this insolent jackass gone.

    (I am talking about Trump, Trump fans.)

    Be careful what you wish for, you may receive it. — W. W. Jacobs

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  265. Jesus Trump looks terrible.

    Nic (896fdf)

  266. “He don’t know how to do that.”
    😂

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  267. Trump is over the top- he may as well ask joe about the new grandkid.

    mg (8cbc69)

  268. Green New Deal is not my plan.

    Poor Joe…last to get the memo.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  269. The Green New Deal is ‘his plan.’ He’s backed it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  270. Cuz Biden has a stutter. Doesn’t make him dumb or senile. Means he has a stutter.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  271. Joe Biden just screwed it over the Green New Deal. Nice gaffe, Slow Joe. I guess we now know you do agree with the Green New Deal and just promised it would pay for itself.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  272. No winners tonight.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/29/2020 @ 7:03 pm

    This probably means Biden did well. That’s hard to believe but that’s how I read DCSCA saying they are even. Not bad for someone you said was brain damaged.

    LOL. Biden now taking credit for Obama. Great way to ingratiate yourself to the left that already hates you, Joe.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124) — 9/29/2020 @ 6:51 pm

    I agree that’s dumb, but Trump has blamed Biden for the administration’s actions 50000 times so it’s fair. Dumb but fair is the best deal we’re going to get from a debate stage.

    I only watched about ten minutes of them babbling at eachother. when Trump started bashing Biden’s son I realized this was unworthy of my eyes.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  273. Not gonna talk about Flynn.

    Sometimes trust content from Patterico!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  274. The look on trumps face when Biden laughed at him.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  275. Polls don’t stay open until the votes are counted, Biden. You are an idiot.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  276. Hard to say how others perceive it. I recognize I’m biased. It just makes me despise Trump more. But I am not his target audience.

    Biden didn’t fall over and repeatedly stumble.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  277. Any government droid who tells you a government project will pay for itself is the biggest liar of them all.

    Exhibit A- The Space Shuttle.

    I’d give Trump the win tonight just because Biden said that.

    He’s an idiot.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  278. Not going to talk about Sullivan as well.

    mg (8cbc69)

  279. @276. No.

    It doesn’t.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  280. whoops.

    mg (8cbc69)

  281. DCSA – correct. Biden had it won until he backed the Green New Deal. Then pledged that it would pay for itself.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  282. TRUMP brought up General Flynn!!

    FLYNNDICATION FOR PATTERICO

    I know Wallace didn’t bring it up but details

    Patterico (115b1f)

  283. everybody laughs at poor mr. president donald trump because they just don’t love him enough

    nk (1d9030)

  284. I’m honest enough to admit when I’m wrong. I didn’t think Biden could stand on his feet for this long. I’m also impressed with the sheer quantity of lying. I’m impressed.

    frosty (f27e97)

  285. @277. Trump mentioned him.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  286. This last rant of Trump’s is a disaster.

    Dave (1bb933)

  287. @288. Geritol.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  288. Is it over?

    nk (1d9030)

  289. Biden didn’t fall over and repeatedly stumble.

    New slogan: Joe Biden, He’s No Gerald Ford

    :)

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  290. The look on Biden’s face when Trump said he’s counting on the Supreme Court to look at the ballots.

    Has to end up as a meme.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  291. Strong close by Joe on voting.

    Doesn’t look senile to me DCSCA

    Trumps going off with grievance and conspiracy theories. Think his fans will like it. Don’t know how much that helps him get more voters.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  292. Nobody is listening, Dave; you watch pie fights.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  293. FLYNNDICATION FOR PATTERICO

    I never doubted for a moment…

    :)

    Dave (1bb933)

  294. @286, that was a crouton on a word salad. Doesn’t count

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  295. Here’s the deal- what’s that, ten times tonight??

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  296. But I still love your

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  297. I did notice how out of shape Trump was compared to Biden. Biden looks normal, but Trump is hunched, awkward, and very obese. That drape of a suit just isn’t doing its job.

    I don’t care too much. I think responding to Biden praising his son’s military service by freaking out about Biden’s addict son was sure to get a lot of idiots smiling and laughing. Same guys who nodded when Trump said to ‘stand by’ when asked to denounce racists. I bet they are fat.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  298. “ Be careful what you wish for, you may receive it. — W. W. Jacobs”
    __ _

    That’s the funniest thing about the Never Trumpers, they really think Biden/Harris (OK, Harris/Biden) will be some sort of upgrade.

    Next funniest is thinking Joe wrote the ear buds & ice cream tweet.
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  299. No questions on plagiarism.

    Wallace is the loser tonight.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  300. God help us survive two more of these debates.

    Dave (1bb933)

  301. Biden didn’t fall over and repeatedly stumble.

    the spin will be that Biden won because he did better than a mannequin.
    beer ‘n pretzels (21c0fe) — 9/29/2020 @ 1:02 pm

    beer ‘n pretzels (f775df)

  302. Any government droid who tells you a government project will pay for itself is the biggest liar of them all.

    True, DCSCA. Anyone who thinks Joe Biden says things because they are true, and not because of political power, is a fool. Nevertheless, Trump’s gotta go.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  303. Here’s the deal again. And again! It’s America’s new drinking game.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  304. Did trump just trash the capital of a swing state?
    Wonder how much this conspiracy theory stuff helps him.

    Biden sounds very sane and composed by comparison

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  305. I did notice how out of shape Trump was compared to Biden. Biden looks normal, but Trump is hunched, awkward, and very obese. That drape of a suit just isn’t doing its job.“
    __ _

    Going on the road all over the country to make your case to the people instead of hiding and calling press lids can take its toll.
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  306. ear plugs biden

    mg (8cbc69)

  307. Biden won the close and looked much better through-out. This one goes to Biden.

    Nic (896fdf)

  308. Trump could not bring himself to say he will discourage his supporters from taking to the streets.

    I said it before and I will say it again: there are two ways to transfer power. Voting or force.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  309. So my takeaway from Biden’s economic plan:

    1. Hire people to caulk (Cash For Caulkers 2.0)
    2. Enact the Green New Deal

    What can go wrong?

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  310. “A hot mess inside a dumpster fire inside a train wreck.”
    – Jake Tapper

    Dave (1bb933)

  311. Dana Bash on CNN: “That was a sh*t show.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  312. Wallace finally shows some balls and calls it ‘a debate’ at the end.

    Absolutely the worst event experienced on television since the Kennedy assassination.

    Or Geraldo opening Capone’s vault.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  313. Trump could not bring himself to say he will discourage his supporters from taking to the streets.

    Unfortunately, Wallace didn’t ask Biden to discourage his supporters, either.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  314. Going on the road all over the country to make your case to the people instead of hiding and calling press lids can take its toll.
    _

    harkin (ea3da9) — 9/29/2020 @ 7:39 pm

    Poor Trump and his hardcore work ethic, lol.

    If he had a nickel for every dollar he lost he would be rich.

    You’re right, Biden’s not really working that hard. No sarcasm, I am not impressed by Biden in any respect.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  315. Fox also seems to think Biden won, in a kind of dumbfounded way.

    Nic (896fdf)

  316. @314. Tapper has no credibility.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  317. Absolutely the worst event experienced on television since the Kennedy assassination.

    Or Geraldo opening Capone’s vault.
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/29/2020 @ 7:41 pm

    I would put it third after watching 9/11 and the space shuttle disaster.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)


  318. Stephen L. Miller
    @redsteeze
    ·
    Wallace is grilling Trump on his supporters taking to the streets when antifa is burning businesses down.

    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  319. Bill Kristol summed it up eloquently:

    “One could easily dismiss tonight’s debate as attacks and crosstalk that won’t change many minds. But that would be to miss the meaning of what we’re seeing: a horrifying degradation of our politics by a man unworthy of the lowest elected office in the U.S., let alone the highest.”

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  320. @319. Nobody won that. You expect Fox to say their star anchor was the big loser?

    Wallace lost complete control of that.

    I’m embarrassed for America.

    … and Putin smiled.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  321. Wallace lost control early. I like him, but this debate was a failure.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  322. Going on the road all over the country to make your case to the people instead of hiding and calling press lids can take its toll.

    Do you really believe that Trump’s rallies of adoring worshipers is “making your case to the people?” In Spanish, it’s called looking for a little mami cariño.

    nk (1d9030)

  323. Bill Kristol is irrelevant.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  324. Kelly Jane Torrance
    @KJTorrance
    ·
    Joe Biden said the green new deal will pay for itself. But then he said he doesn’t support it.

    _ _

    You have to elect it to find out what’s in it!
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  325. Trump could not bring himself to say he will discourage his supporters from taking to the streets.

    Oh man, not more QAnon violence.

    beer ‘n pretzels (f775df)

  326. Unfortunately, Wallace didn’t ask Biden to discourage his supporters, either.

    He certainly did, and Biden gave a one-word answer: “Yes.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  327. “Do you really believe that Trump’s rallies of adoring worshipers is “making your case to the people?”
    __

    That’s the same thing Hillary said when her advisors told her she should visit Wisconsin.
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  328. Wallace lost control, but I blame Trump for that.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  329. Those hawaiianshirted folk how much did thousand currents pay chris wallace.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  330. His voice was quivering.

    He should have gotten up and left the two of them for five minutes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  331. @324 Fox kinda did. Not explicitly, but they seem amazed and don’t really know what to say about how bad Trump was and on top of that they generally said that Biden did OK.

    Nic (896fdf)

  332. Bidens side actually bailed out the rioter, heck theyd deputize them as part of the new national police.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  333. In the future, misanthropes like me will look back on these days as our Golden Age.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  334. @321. Was trying to keep it in the ‘political family’ but I’ll give you STS-25 and 9/11 on a broader list.

    Tonight was horrible.

    And I blame Chris Wallace completely for it. His job was to moderate: at that he was a miserable failure.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  335. You get my vote for Most Forwardable Comments, Mr. Nic. I forwarded two of them.

    nk (1d9030)

  336. His voice was quivering.

    He should have gotten up and left the two of them for five minutes.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/29/2020 @ 7:48 pm

    I agree. He probably needs to practice how to breath to overcome that. I used to have that problem when afraid, but it’s very learnable how to overcome it.

    Maybe instead of journalists, get a retiree who was a drill sergeant to moderate. Or turn their mikes off, like they are little children. Give them buzzers and mix in quiz questions about American history.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  337. @330: and Biden gave a one-word answer: “Yes.”

    Candy Crowley would’ve been all over that lie.

    beer ‘n pretzels (f775df)

  338. Wallace lost control, but I blame Trump for that.

    I am of the opinion that two old men looking to be President of the United States should not need a moderator to control them. It’s not Wallace’s failure, it’s Trump’s failure.

    nk (1d9030)

  339. @295. He looks and sounds very senile– and dead when he looks down- the in the coffin look. Hell he was dressed to be buried tonight.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  340. Candy Crowley would’ve been all over that lie.

    beer ‘n pretzels (f775df) — 9/29/2020 @ 7:54 pm

    If Biden condemned them, he condemned them. It’s not a lie. Of course those few Antifa who manage to vote will all vote for Biden, but nevertheless, Biden rejects them. Trump was not man enough to stand up to the thugs on his side (and yeah, there are such people).

    Trump is never brave when there’s anything at stake for him. And apparently he is a brave destroyed of many donuts and much fried chicken. He looked horrible on the debate stage. He didn’t look this bad next to Hillary, but Biden in a well cut suit? He looked like a loser.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  341. @342.The format and forum dictated a moderator. t was Wallace’s failure. Hell, his voice was literally quivering throughout it. He was out o his league tonight. Jim Lehrer would have managed it much better.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  342. OK, I have not read all the comments but I have a serious question for the Trump fans:

    Do you think Trump came off looking good tonight?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  343. @339 😛 Thank you, I’m glad to be of service.

    @342 Both, I think. The moderator does have the responsibility to control things, but the idea that Trump would be controlled started off as flawed. He doesn’t know how to act right.

    Nic (896fdf)

  344. Biden wasn’t great. You could tell that he was trying to deal with the firehose of bullsh*t that Trump was delivering.
    BUT, the person delivering the firehose of bulls*t should lose this debate. Trump was a complete a$$hole.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  345. It’s not a lie. Of course those few Antifa who manage to vote will all vote for Biden, but nevertheless, Biden rejects them.

    His staffers bailed out rioters and looters. He could’ve stopped that, or denounced it. He didn’t, and he won’t. It’s a lie.

    beer ‘n pretzels (f775df)

  346. 327. I never said he’s relevant, just that he’s right.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  347. Dustin at 344. I remember one debate with Hillary(?) where he had corseted himself so tightly that he could not breathe.

    nk (1d9030)

  348. Dustin at 344. I remember one debate with Hillary(?) where he had corseted himself so tightly that he could not breathe.

    nk (1d9030) — 9/29/2020 @ 8:01 pm

    Maybe that’s the difference. I bet he takes a write-off on both the girdle and the donut holes.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  349. @346. Nobody did. And that is wholly the fault of Chris Wallace, who complelely failed to do his job as a moderator.

    But it was ‘great’ television– just like the Kennedy assassination, the Challenger and 9/11 coverage.

    And, always, Geraldo’s opening of Capone’s vault.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  350. Do you think Trump came off looking good tonight?

    Trump didn’t kill anyone there with fish tank cleaner and didn’t burn a cross on stage, so he exceeded expectations. He wins.

    beer ‘n pretzels (f775df)

  351. John gill was more lively than most.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  352. His staffers bailed out rioters and looters. He could’ve stopped that, or denounced it. He didn’t, and he won’t. It’s a lie.

    beer ‘n pretzels (f775df) — 9/29/2020 @ 8:01 pm

    You make a great point up to the point you call this a lie.

    It’s not a lie to condemn violence just because your staffers have the right to bail out violent people. I disagree with this ‘no cash bail’ idea, but it’s an idea out there on the left. It doesn’t necessarily mean support for rioting, though you’re right to be totally skeptical.

    Regardless, by your standards, Trump supports beating up Brad Parscale’s wife, since his staffer did that.

    This guilt by association thing seems cheap.

    Biden didn’t hesitate to say he didn’t stand with the bad guys. Trump was a coward and had to tell the bad guys to stand by. Many of Trump’s comments have hurt our nation’s character, and that will always be high on the list. It might be the only thing anyone remembers about this debates in 20 years when they are discussing all the horrible consequences of this year.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  353. What if I told you guys that Jimmy Swaggart still has a TV show on a channel called SONL, which (I had to look it up) stands for Son of Life. At least I think this is current, unless they’re showing high def reruns from ten years ago.

    Anyway, I’m just wondering if maybe he would be interested in running for President.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  354. @342.The format and forum dictated a moderator. t was Wallace’s failure. Hell, his voice was literally quivering throughout it. He was out o his league tonight. Jim Lehrer would have managed it much better.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/29/2020 @ 7:58 pm

    Sadly I agree. Trump is paid to be a bully and a nutcase. When his masters were mentioned, Putin and white supremacists, Trump had nothing bad to say and was a mild puppy, but when his own senior administration were quoted many times, Trump was basically throwing parts of his podium at the moderator.

    If you sign up to moderate this guy, you need to be up to the task. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with not being up to it. Wallace should have walked up, taken Trump’s mike, and told biden to continue for five minutes, then given the mike back if Trump promises to act like an adult.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  355. Of course those few Antifa who manage to vote will all vote for Biden, but nevertheless, Biden rejects them

    Actually, the far left generally has no more use for Biden than they do for Trump. Listen to Pacifica radio (if there isn’t a local station near you, I assume it can be streamed online.) It’s 24/7 anti-Obama/Biden diatribe. The other day I heard someone ranting that even Bernie is a GOP-lite corporate sellout!

    It’s hilarious. And by the way, it used to be that way with the extreme right. They were no friends of the Bushes, McCain or Romney. It’s one of the many odious things that distinguishes Trump. He’s the first president in my lifetime to win the devoted, heartfelt support of the violent fringe of his party.

    To wit, here’s what the Proud Boys posted on Telegram after the debate.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  356. The NYT shows the math on Trump’s $750

    Dave (1bb933)

  357. The Partyman
    @PartymanRandy
    ·
    Pretty spectacular to see people on cable news acting all high and mighty about the discourse when the debate was pretty much just a normal night on cable news.

    __ _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  358. If I had to pick a one highlight- it was pre-debate TeeVee images of Ivanka and Tiffany and their vamped up call-girl look. A little early for Halloween, though.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  359. About the size of it, its 3-1 against on cnn or msnbc

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  360. “ And by the way, it used to be that way with the extreme right. They were no friends of the Bushes, McCain or Romney. It’s one of the many odious things that distinguishes Trump. He’s the first president in my lifetime to win the devoted, heartfelt support of the violent fringe of his party.”
    ___

    It’s the extreme (but more mainstream every day) Left that’s rioting, looting, burning down buildings and attacking cops.
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  361. 346- No. Trump was over the top. He had plenty of time to come across reasonable, but failed. He made some good points, but his obnoxiousness will be remembered.

    mg (8cbc69)

  362. It’s the extreme (but more mainstream every day) Left that’s rioting, looting, burning down buildings and attacking cops.
    _

    harkin (ea3da9) — 9/29/2020 @ 8:19 pm

    I agree, at least for the most part. Nevertheless, someone showed up when Trump demanded his nuts LIBERATE this and that place. There are some real crazies in that bunch if you talk to them. some of them are misguided and paranoid. Some of them are genuinely what the left says they are. Trump has their support, Biden has the half-hearted support of all Trump haters, but the fringe left doesn’t really like Biden.

    The real issue is our primaries don’t have runoffs, and the internet has helped the crazies find validation and spread crazy, so their block is now the largest. it’s a minority, and the sanes would stomp them in a runoff, but right now, they are winning a lot.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  363. A.C. Spollen
    @ACSpollen
    ·
    Can someone point me to Republicans rioting or causing drama on election night? Ever?
    __ _

    A.C. Spollen
    @ACSpollen
    ·
    Remember that time Republicans took to the streets when Romney lost? Me neither.
    __ _

    John
    @JMGrandy
    ·
    Well we might have except we had to go to work the next day.

    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  364. Really, how ‘have you stopped beating your wife’ is he supposed to endure.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  365. DCSA – Have you watched “The Gazebo”?
    aka the gazbo

    mg (8cbc69)

  366. “ the fringe left doesn’t really like Biden.”
    ___

    Anybody who pays attention to what they say in social media knows this.
    __ _

    They aren’t voting for Biden to put him in charge, they’re voting for him so they can take over the Executive Branch.
    __ _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  367. We have seen the democratic base burn dowm cities murder cops for six monthes. And biden encourages it through deed as well as word.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  368. It’s 24/7 anti-Obama/Biden diatribe. The other day I heard someone ranting that even Bernie is a GOP-lite corporate sellout!

    LOL. The internet is a haven for those who have absurd points of view, but find someone who agrees with them, and believe that proves they are reasonable. This has really screwed things up.

    It is the greatest ally hateful paranoia has ever had.

    I don’t think we should pull the plug, but we should recognize that the block of zealous crazy is much larger than our founders thought it could be. Primary run off elections should really help quality control our candidates, and would save a lot of money in coffins alone.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  369. I have to say, no, really, I have to say it, this site has been rocking for the last few days. Great posts, great threads.

    nk (1d9030)

  370. No more debates when the moderators let obama get away with everything

    https://mobile.twitter.com/danielggarza/status/1311139548706074626

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  371. DJT crushed JB on issues. Wiped him out. But, Joe won the war.

    Joe had the most to gain, and he really came through. He kept punching for 90 minutes and there were no obvious “moments,” largely thanks to DJT’s idiocy of interrupting just as Joe was struggling on several occasions.

    DJT was a bully and he picked on his opponent’s family (never mind he was dead right about the corruption of Hunter). That is what the alleged undecided squishes saw.

    Chris Wallace also bailed out Biden on a couple of crucial occasions. Wallace’s predicate to his questions were overwhelmingly from a leftist bent, too. He absolutely argued directly with Trump and did not do that with Biden. It was 2 on 1, as DJT complained. But, again, DJT was a bully and he will not get the benefit of the rigged scale Wallace employed.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  372. Ive been 8 maybe even 12 years for a response. No quarter given, because he trying to destroy this country, and there is nowhere to go after this.biden would kruschevs prophecy come true.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  373. Do you think Trump came off looking good tonight?

    Patterico (115b1f) — 9/29/2020 @ 7:59 pm

    No. He never looks good. He never sounds good. As a human being, he is simply not good.

    Those who look and sound good got us 20 trillion in debt and, through action or inaction, destroyed the social fabric of this country before we even had the chance to consider pulling a lever for the ugly man.

    Matador (0284e8)

  374. it is when people say “the corruption of Hunter” that i miss mr. happyfeet the most

    his depictions of mrs. ivanka trump kushner as a nude pole dancer were enthralling

    most enthralling

    and she is not even running for anything

    her daddy, mr. president donald trump, the one who fired mrs. sarah huckabee sanders because he caught mr. kim jong un looking at her, is

    nk (1d9030)

  375. The look on Biden’s face when Trump said he’s counting on the Supreme Court to look at the ballots.

    Nobody will tell him what the court will say (assuming that there is no wholesale public cheating like Chicago 1960).

    1. “Nice doggie.”
    2. “9-0, GFY”

    Can you really imagine Roberts, Alito or even Thomas wanting to be seen as enabling this fukwit? Thomas probably sent his entire time at Yale trying to avoid jerks like Trump; entitled, witless and arrogant. Maybe he’ll have Kavanaugh’s vote.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  376. Alito and thomas know whats at stake, the latter has the stitches from what biden enabled, gorsuch forgets where he came from, and kavanaugh what a dissapointment.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  377. Ooh, Biden’s Kellyanne callout was accurate.

    Dave (1bb933)

  378. Editor of Cook Political Report:

    Words undecided voters in @FrankLuntz’s focus group had for Trump: “arrogant,” “crackhead” and “un-American”

    Biden: “better than expected,” “more professional,” “restraint and compassion,” “Predictable” “coherent” “leader”

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  379. Those who look and sound good got us 20 trillion in debt

    Fair, matador. So called fiscal conservatives spent a lot of money, knowing they could get away with leaving us with a crisis down the road. They deceived us and it’s understandable that Trump was able to get them to reject politics as usual. They let this guy who said he paid so much more than us in taxes and was a great businessman selling books on how to make money, cut the fat, balance the budget. That was Trump’s boldest con. I’m not surprised biden didn’t hold this one up as I doubt Biden wants to make any promises on the issue.

    Trump’s gotta go, but fiscal conservatives should trust no one.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  380. I don’t blame people for crediting Chicago with electing JFK in 1960, when discussing his ancestry the mule always mentions the horse, but it was LBJ delivering Texas that deserves most of the credit I think.

    nk (1d9030)

  381. BTW, I left the debate (judging by the timestamps) 19 minutes in.

    Donald Trump is unfit to govern. My problem is that the Democrat Party, as seen by the Congress, is so off the rails it is ALSO unfit to govern.

    Ideally, they would all lose. Failing that, the GOP holds the Senate just barely. Failing that a 6-3 court keeps Congress from obliterating the republic until the GOP can recover from this ridiculous fukwit in a human-suit.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  382. Alito and thomas know whats at stake

    There are larger threats. Trump is a clear and present danger all by himself.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  383. Alito and thomas know whats at stake, the latter has the stitches from what biden enabled, gorsuch forgets where he came from, and kavanaugh what a dissapointment.

    Do you really think the Supreme Court is going to go to the wall to prevent a transfer of power? To help TRUMP?!?!!?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  384. Trump was wishcasting for Biden to be awful, but Biden was just … meh whatever. Way better than the expectation of a brain damaged senile idiot. Biden was worse than W in debates by a longshot. I’d say he was worse than John Kerry, better than Al Gore.

    With Trump’s taxes out there, he’s just a loser. He was wise to keep those tax returns a secret.

    The debate probably won’t make a difference. I am actually concerned Trump is going to cheat though.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  385. nk, It actually wasn’t a big issue as Illinois EVs weren’t deciding. A lot of close races though.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  386. @386 I…. don’t know how the GOP recovers. They’ve driven out over 1/4 of the party in the last 20 years. Maybe Americans have a short enough memory? IDK.

    Nic (896fdf)

  387. Biden was obviously off his game, but Trump’s assholitry covered for a lot of sins. Trump’s base, from the cultural school of talk radio, thought he was great, taking it to the Left.

    But look at what that looked like to people with manners.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  388. If Joe won, why is an early narrative from his friends about canceling the future debates? Wouldn’t you want more of them?

    Quick returns from Luntz show that DJT pushed away the middle. Cook Report saying the same thing.

    If the calculation is that Joe now has the win if he simply rides it out as he has to this point, I get it. But, DJT has clear momentum, very much like 2016. Two more performances like that and he’s done, imo. Why not bait him into it, thus energizing the Biden base and avoiding a late independent swing to Trump, which is what happened four years ago.

    Ed from SFV (f64387)

  389. They’ve driven out over 1/4 of the party in the last 20 years

    The last four, actually, replacing them with morons. And many of those who’ve stayed are just wishing for this man to leave, lose, die, whatever.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  390. If I were Biden, I would say that Trump is so unsuited for the office that further debates are impossible. The man has the sense of decorum of a rabid boar, he won’t allow an actual debate to occur, and would the GOP please send someone else.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  391. @381, Actually it wasn’t “accurate” at all- but in the parkish, so’ll we’ll give him a passed ball on it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  392. people saying what they expect from a supreme court judge should have no bearing
    its about the rule of law

    mg (8cbc69)

  393. If Joe won, why is an early narrative from his friends about canceling the future debates? Wouldn’t you want more of them?

    Harris seemed to shoot down that idea in her post-debate interview on CNN.

    Although it was soon enough after the debate that it probably doesn’t reflect any considered policy.

    Dave (1bb933)

  394. David French:

    “Stand back and stand by” is not a condemnation, it’s a call to be ready. In a nation wracked by unrest, that was one of the most irresponsible and reprehensible statements I’ve ever seen from a president. The Proud Boys are a violent vigilante militia.

    The contrast was stark. Biden is a mediocre, semi-addled septuagenarian with bad policies, yet compared to the stinking heap of affront to all that’s decent, he came off as a blinding beacon of American greatness.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  395. Dustin,

    We can hope, we can pray, but none will ever stop the spending, Relatively speaking, Trump’s been better than most. He didn’t cut, but he was up only 15% on that 20 trillion after 3 years until the pandemic.

    Matador (0284e8)

  396. After Trump loses, and NY convicts him of tax evasion, could someone please talk him into letting his first day in prison be filmed as a reality show? It’s pretty late to teach him manners, but prison might do it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  397. But STILL I won’t vote for Biden.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  398. @392. Trump’s error was not letting Biden talk more. It didn’t take long to get him to call the POTUS a clown and to shut-up.

    But he came across as a cadaver– especially when he’d look down. He appeared exactly like a corpse in a coffin on television– dressed to be buried.

    But the loser tonight was Wallace. He was a complete failure. No excuse for it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  399. Based on what the carp carlos slims pays the times to publish.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  400. A month is ten lifetimes. This will fade from the news cycle in 72 hours.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  401. Patterico (115b1f)

  402. He didn’t cut, but he was up only 15% on that 20 trillion after 3 years until the pandemic.

    Matador (0284e8) — 9/29/2020 @ 9:02 pm

    It’s how he leads in a crisis that matters, and if we just count only the easy years, all the other Republicans were far, far better than Trump.

    Trump’s ‘here’s some cash, vote for me’ if that came from Jeb or Obama, wouldn’t be defended. The spending was out of hand. Bipartisanship is no shield.

    Beyond that, Trump has not cut the fat, and has broken his promise to get us on path to a balanced budget. An honest response to this is that there’s no competitor who would do the same. Maybe. I don’t see anyone like Mitch Daniels putting their family through stuff like how Trump cut into Biden’s comments about his dead veteran son to talk about the addict son.

    Clearly character is still central to getting things on track. Decent people can’t survive in this political climate.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  403. Now you will rooting for kamala right, there isnt enough excrement you wont put up with, now that debate might require scolapine. Because pence is too civil.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  404. But, DJT has clear momentum, very much like 2016…….

    Comedy gold! In polling, Trump’s momentum is downhill.

    Rip Murdock (631d7a)

  405. Whoever wins- it’s a win/win to me; but Biden is a bad person.

    So is Trump.

    But a CIC has to be a SOB. Biden is not one.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  406. What we saw tonight was the same thing we’ve seen for four years — a man who is so completely unsuited to any position of trust or profit under the Constitution that he should have been impeached just for that reason.

    Pelosi didn’t do that because it might have worked. She did not want Trump gone, he was too useful where he was. So, she brought some weak-ass charges to buy off the impatient, there was a lot of storm and fury, accomplishing nothing.

    The Democrats wanted this man weakening the GOP for the rest of his term, and he has done exactly that. Sad for them that Bernie didn’t get the memo.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  407. Pat (@406)

    No sh1t? That’s been his message all along. If Trump were to drop dead, Biden’s campaign would collapse.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  408. It’s not Wallace’s fault Trump was out of control. Short of cutting off his mic or slapping him there was very little he could do. I thought he did a decent job.

    Rip Murdock (631d7a)

  409. Trump’s error was not letting Biden talk more.

    Indirectly. He didn’t want to let anyone talk.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  410. See #30. Lest you forget:

    Hillary was 14 points ahead of Trump just 12 days before the general.

    “I am the Democratic Party,” crowed Joe tonight. Sad.

    “No miracle is coming.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  411. Yes wallaces job is to let biden run roughshod so he can finish what obama couldnt, you all kiss his ass four years later even after all he wrought, the firestorm he has fanned.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  412. Decent people can’t survive in this political climate.

    To be fair, the system isn’t designed for decent people. It’s designed to force bastards to work together whether they want to or not. Trump’s problem is he’s too stupid to understand that, and he is constantly riding the effing horse sideways.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  413. SNL season premieres this Saturday.

    Tell me that’s a coincidence…

    Dave (1bb933)

  414. Biden’s comments about his dead veteran son

    “Here’s some cash, vote for me” which is a BFOQ for politicians, or “My dead kids, my dead ex wife who I was cheating on at the time” vote for me.

    Joe’s been trading on his deceased family since they died.

    I didn’t think anyone could go lower than Trump, but Joe lives there.

    Matador (0284e8)

  415. @413. Yes. It was.

    It was Wallace’s job to maintain control.

    He lost it within the first five minutes. He knew it too–his quivering voice for 90 minutes was the dead give away.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  416. The next Trump/Biden moderator needs a SuperSoaker.

    Dave (1bb933)

  417. Or shock-collars.

    Dave (1bb933)

  418. @418. It is. SNL always premieres after the Emmys. That’s how the award season calendar cycle operates in Hollywood. Now the guilds are gearing up for their awards through the autumn as the 2021 GGs approach in January.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  419. @421.He/she needs balls. All Wallace had to do was stand up an leave the desk for five minutes and let the two kids chill.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  420. Who gives a farthing about snl, or camelbert or that rotten piece of dung that is maher

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  421. I would have confronted the charlottesville lie, which ties to this blazing fire that has been raging for six monthes fanned by the squad obama bernie and much of corporate america.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  422. Instead of thanking Joe Biden for his fallen son’s time in the military, Trump said ‘I don’t know him’ and started bashing his brother for being booted.

    Kevin’s point that Biden’s not fit to lead is right. I don’t care.

    I’m not outraged. I don’t care enough to be outraged. But Biden just being Biden is no problem for me.

    I think Trump decided not to prepare for this debate, and fell onto this idea he could relive his glory days badgering Hillary, just kinda be a tough bully and put as much pressure as he could on Biden. Trump is believing his own press, that he’s some kind of incredible fighter, but all he really showed, yet again, is he takes shortcuts. Trump could have prepared, let Biden make mistakes, spotted them and discussed. But he didn’t put in the work. he can write off most of his mistakes and failures at our expense, and of course he can write off losing an election with shenanigans.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  423. RIP Helen Reddy (78).

    Rip Murdock (631d7a)

  424. Just like biden didnt know the crew of extortion 17, that his loose lips ended.
    After opposing the mission that prompted the leak.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  425. Beau was the only decent one in that whole family, the two coked up kidswith the stripper baby.the wife who is committing elder abuse, but after 84 minutes he wasnt going to be tactul

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  426. “Here’s some cash, vote for me” which is a BFOQ for politicians, or “My dead kids, my dead ex wife who I was cheating on at the time” vote for me.

    Joe’s been trading on his deceased family since they died.

    I didn’t think anyone could go lower than Trump, but Joe lives there.

    Matador (0284e8) — 9/29/2020 @ 9:20 pm

    OK I kinda disagree but I understand this. Biden did bring Beau up out of nowhere, I think (I was messing with my daughter, who wouldn’t sleep, and I was not following closely). that is cheap.

    But he did have a point. Trump has indeed said disgraceful things about our military. And Biden’s kid being in the military is the closest thing to military service on that stage. No Trump would ever do something so selfless. They really do think soldiers are suckers.

    Biden’s play for points is like an extreme version of the tourist spot selfie, very self centered and artificial. Lower than Trump’s conduct here? I can’t even come close to understanding that.

    you brought up fiscal discipline as a reason to support Trump. Trump is literally mailing people gift cards. Come on.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  427. To be fair, the system isn’t designed for decent people. It’s designed to force bastards to work together whether they want to or not. Trump’s problem is he’s too stupid to understand that, and he is constantly riding the effing horse sideways.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/29/2020 @ 9:19 pm

    America needs tough leaders who make cold blooded calculations. There ain’t enough to go around. There are people out there who would behead us without a second’s thought and sleep like a baby after.

    But that’s not really what I’m talking about. Politicians know their families will be harmed if they run for a high enough office. Just a fact of life, and it means only psychos make it that far.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  428. No he hasnt, biden has on tape, and his policies in afghanistan and iraq bely that. Not that w was much better.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  429. Beau was the only decent one in that whole family, the two coked up kidswith the stripper baby.the wife who is committing elder abuse, but after 84 minutes he wasnt going to be tactul

    I’m sorry, but that’s a real a$$hole comment.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  430. (Trump) fell onto this idea he could relive his glory days badgering Hillary…..

    Like DCSCA repeating Trump/Hillary poll numbers.

    You’re living in the f***ing past.-The Dude

    Rip Murdock (631d7a)

  431. I think Trump decided not to prepare for this debate, and fell onto this idea he could relive his glory days badgering Hillary, just kinda be a tough bully and put as much pressure as he could on Biden.

    Well, I think his antics did disrupt Biden’s performance, kind of like facing a full-court press all game in basketball or a no-huddle offense all game in football.

    And Hillary won every debate in 2016, if poll movement afterward is the metric.

    Dave (1bb933)

  432. You value comity, i think its overrated, when it seems to benefit the left.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  433. you brought up fiscal discipline as a reason to support Trump. Trump is literally mailing people gift cards. Come on.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 9/29/2020 @ 9:39 pm

    I did not say he had fiscal discipline. I said “Relatively speaking”, and followed with the concession that spending will never stop.

    You say Trump is unfit to lead. I say, Trump is less unfit than any alternative. He will be unbearable, but he will not yield, no, he will not capitulate to the radical left. He is a roadblock until we can find something between what many thought they were getting with Trump and the good-looking smart-sounding slime that pat our heads while picking our pockets and selling us out.

    If you score, you may win. If they never score, you will never lose. Defense wins championships.

    Matador (0284e8)

  434. I’m sorry, but that’s a real a$$hole comment.

    He is only following his instructions: Russia trying to ‘denigrate’ Biden campaign, says FBI director (Reuters)

    nk (1d9030)

  435. RIP Helen Reddy (78).

    Oh great, now Donald Trump gets to pick the next feminist singer/activist.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  436. Another lifetime troughfeeder saying Russia is trying to help Trump.

    Meh.

    Matador (0284e8)

  437. He will be unbearable, but he will not yield, no, he will not capitulate to the radical left.

    Putin is not the radical left, it died with Andropov, so it’s okay if Trump capitulates to him, is that it?

    nk (1d9030)

  438. Another lifetime troughfeeder saying Russia is trying to help Trump.

    Appointed by Trump and confirmed by a Republican Senate.

    Rip Murdock (631d7a)

  439. There’s more to being President than putting down the 5% of Americans, if even that many, on the loony fringes.

    nk (1d9030)

  440. You value comity, i think its overrated, when it seems to benefit the left.

    I believe in calling out a$$hole comments when I see them, gris, and yours was an a$$hole comment.
    Wallace was being too deferential to Trump because he’s the POTUS, but Trump hasn’t earned that deferentiality in future debates. The next moderators should just confront the a$$hole for acting like an a$$hole.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  441. I’m sorry, but that’s a real a$$hole comment.
    Paul Montagu (39c87e) — 9/29/2020 @ 9:44 pm

    Yeah, I was thinking that too. How could he possibly know what kind of guy Beau was, right?

    Matador (0284e8)

  442. I have great respect for someone who went through the hell of our long war.

    Wallace was being the same left watercarrier ‘community policing, climate change, all this other genuflecting to the capitols fixtures

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  443. Appointed by Trump and confirmed by a Republican Senate.
    Rip Murdock (631d7a) — 9/29/2020 @ 10:04 pm

    And your point is?

    We all know Trump’s personnel decisions are made with Snoopy ball darts. Sometime he hits, mostly he misses, but it’s mistake, not malfeasance. As for the Senate?

    Golly gee Sgt Carter, I just cain’t believe it. I just cain’t.

    Matador (0284e8)

  444. I gave my reasons, ive beem waiting for a thrashing like that for 12 years, the one who was victimized then talk about violence and intimidation to her person, to her church to every member of her family

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  445. You value comity, i think its overrated, when it seems to benefit the left.

    How did frothing at the mouth and ranting like a lunatic work out for your savior tonight?

    Bring back fond memories of the beard in his prime, did it?

    Dave (1bb933)

  446. A blunt but necessary instrument, some more tact like hawley or desantis might do, would be nice but they arent available.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  447. Putin is not the radical left, it died with Andropov, so it’s okay if Trump capitulates to him, is that it?
    nk (1d9030) — 9/29/2020 @ 10:03 pm

    Still chasing that Russian bogeyman?

    Fables, no matter how enchanting, never become non-fiction best sellers.

    Matador (0284e8)

  448. Kinda weird seeing the media declare Biden the clear superior debater while at the same time saying Biden should refuse any more debates.
    __ _

    Meanwhile……

    Daniel Garza
    @danielggarza
    ·
    Spanish speaking viewers of Telemundo expressed their preference of who won tonight’s presidential debate: 66% Trump 34% Biden. #
    DebateTuesday
    __ _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  449. Yeah, I was thinking that too. How could he possibly know what kind of guy Beau was, right?

    I dunno. It seems you’re conflating the older brother who lived a pretty honorable life until he died with the black sheep who didn’t die from a brain tumor who had a drug problem and was trying to make a quick buck. That Trump would smear the older brother is a notch against Trump.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  450. No, I was saying he was spot on about the blacksheep.

    Montagu…for the whiff.

    Matador (0284e8)

  451. Boogeyman? Fables?

    There are an estimated 235 million US citizens over the age of 18 in the United States. Are there 17.5 million radical anything, of any stripe, left, right and in-between, all together, in total?

    That is the fable Trump supporters are peddling, the boogeyman they hide under the blanket from.

    nk (1d9030)

  452. Its kind of like my view of the kennedys rfk still has a certain nobility, even if he was wrongheaded, teddy was an actual traitor to the soviets.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  453. If Biden wins, you math will be proven a fable.

    Matador (0284e8)

  454. “your”, of course.

    Matador (0284e8)

  455. How many will resist, the left. A committed minority willing to use any tactic will overwhelm a quiescent majority.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  456. I gave my reasons, ive beem waiting for a thrashing like that for 12 years…

    What thrashing, gris. It was a cock-up. A sh*tshow. Originated by a sh*tshow president. No one won this debate. The loser was the United States of America, for showing the world what a sh*thole country we’re becoming.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  457. Putin live rent free in your head, nk.

    He’s not all that. Just ask Barack.

    Matador (0284e8)

  458. Heh! I get it.

    Sorry. I’m as racist as the next guy, as long as I keep above the Mason-Dixon line anyway, but I don’t count every person of color as a radical leftist.

    nk (1d9030)

  459. Putin live rent free in your head, nk.

    And Trump says I’m not allowed to evict him. Sakes alive, I hope he didn’t bring any Novichuk with him!

    nk (1d9030)

  460. Youve been cooking thaf souvlaki too long.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  461. 455, that assessment is prone to many factors such as was the quality of the on-spot translation and also the timbre of the respective speakers assigned to voice Trump and Biden. But BdG might know better, the answer in terms of Telemundo’s ratings appeal compared to his whipping horse rival Univision.

    urbanleftbehind (973806)

  462. I guess the coin flip came up tails for nk. If it’s heads, he makes allusions to Putin toy boys, otherwise it’s hooded cross burners.

    beer ‘n pretzels (134835)

  463. Oh racial sensitivity training like that smithsonian exhibit,

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  464. Now, how did we get to RACIST!?

    Barack Obama said Russia was no longer a threat when chastising Mitt. “The 80’s wants it foreign policy back”.

    Matador (0284e8)

  465. He was begging for an in with the treacherous deal with the revolutionary guard.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  466. if president vladimir lives rent free in mr nks head i hope he at least tips ivanka generously at the end of her set

    Dave (1bb933)

  467. And Trump says I’m not allowed to evict him.

    Of course you are allowed to evict him. But can you?

    Matador (0284e8)

  468. How did frothing at the mouth and ranting like a lunatic work out for your savior tonight?

    No, Biden won’t froth and rant. I guess that’s about as deep the thinking goes for a Biden supporter.

    Like the Green New Deal? If it saves us from frothing and ranting, well sure. My god.

    beer ‘n pretzels (f775df)

  469. Mostly curdling in a back room, of course epistemic closure makes it impossible for biden to know which lie he told

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  470. Biden refused to take a stand on packing the court.

    If the Democrats pack the court, I will make a lateral move, and emigrate to a banana republic.

    norcal (a5428a)

  471. When rome falls, it wont matter which province you’re in, no there isnt a standby like constantinople.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  472. Biden refused to take a stand on packing the court.

    If the Democrats pack the court, I will make a lateral move, and emigrate to a banana republic.

    norcal (a5428a) — 9/29/2020 @ 10:57 pm

    I didn’t catch that part. A serious black mark on Biden.

    I love how defensive Trump fans get about Putin because they clearly know it’s all true. It’s all true.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  473. I suffered through the entire debate, if it can be called a debate. I watched hours of commentary on several channels afterwards. These are my thoughts.

    I don’t think Trump did himself any favors. He came across as rude and crude, but that was to be expected.

    I don’t think Biden helped himself very much. He came across as more stately though.

    I think Wallace disgraced himself.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  474. I don’t understand how Obama being wrong about something makes Trumps even more wrong opinion somehow right. Trump can be wrong on the same stuff Obama was also wrong on.

    Nic (896fdf)

  475. Simple he was the usurper the corruptor orlf every agency with the cooperation of the press, who cheered his every move.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  476. You cant blame obama anymore than you can blame a scorpion for stinging you he wants to ‘fundamentally transform this country, thats an ongoing project.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  477. The Democrats aren’t going to have the votes to eliminate the filibuster and pack the court, even if Biden would go along, which as a traditionalist he won’t.

    There’s no point in taking a position on something impossible.

    Dave (1bb933)

  478. ‘You can keep your doctor and your plan’ no matter how many times it was said it wasnt true.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  479. @482 If all your opinions depend on what someone else thinks then you are worse than a child. Even children develop independent opinions and don’t just go along with people they like and reflexively contradict people they don’t.

    Nic (896fdf)

  480. The Democrats aren’t going to have the votes to eliminate the filibuster and pack the court, even if Biden would go along, which as a traditionalist he won’t.

    There’s no point in taking a position on something impossible.

    Dave (1bb933) — 9/29/2020 @ 11:10 pm

    I’m going to save this statement, Dave.

    If I never have to retrieve it, I’ll count myself lucky.

    norcal (a5428a)

  481. That so called debate Lincoln-Douglas II (NOT) is why I am voting third party as I did in 2016. And if the third party is taken off the ballot as green party was in wisconsin I will go write in on the ballot.

    asset (dc9cee)

  482. I suppose we can still pray that the moderators boycott…

    Dave (1bb933)

  483. @491 Maybe we can put the candidates in those beauty pageant question and answer segment glass booths.

    Nic (896fdf)

  484. This debate was The Jerry Springer Show, minus the chair-throwing.

    norcal (a5428a)

  485. Kevin’s point that Biden’s not fit to lead is right. I don’t care.

    I didn’t say that. TRUMP is unfit. Biden may be fit, but his PARTY isn’t.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  486. He didn’t cut, but he was up only 15% on that 20 trillion after 3 years until the pandemic.
    Matador (0284e8) — 9/29/2020 @ 9:02 pm

    Trump’s pre-COVID 2020 deficit was 74% larger than Obama’s last year. If your deficits are spiraling in the “greatest economy in the history of America” and you promised to balance the budget, you’re gobsmackingly FOS.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  487. VP debate may have an interesting dynamic.

    First, unlike Trump, Pence will likely prepare, and approach the debate with some sort of plan.

    Since Pence has been a complete non-entity, apart from nodding his head at whatever Trump says, Harris will doubtless try to force him to defend Trump’s lunacy.

    Pence, on the other hand, has the choice of attacking Biden or Harris. Harris’ attacks on Biden in the early Dem debates will be one obvious source of material.

    Dave (1bb933)

  488. OTOH, Trump is not the problem. The problem was what GOT us Trump.

    Professional politicians ended up competing for the favor of a narrow spectrum of society — the upper middle-class and their need for investment returns — and forgot the folks in their traditional base. OK, the didn’t forget them, they just pandered to them and otherwise ignored them. And the one day it was intolerable and Trump was there to lead the torches and pitchforks.

    I wonder how the GOP plans to get us out of this. The Left HAS and answer: giant government managing all aspects of society in detail. The New Green Deal is pretty much the Command Economy. We know how that ends. And ironically, Trump has enabled it while destroying the forces that would normally oppose it.

    I doubt I’ll live to see the final crash. I wonder who they’ll blame it on.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  489. Biden may be fit, but his PARTY isn’t.

    Parties don’t govern, people do. I don’t think either party has a monopoly on virtue.

    We need to rediscover the idea that in an evenly divided country, it’s a good thing if both sides get some of what they want, and it’s to be expected that neither side gets everything.

    Dave (1bb933)

  490. @436. Dude; Past is Prologue:

    Dewey Defeats Truman.

    Ask Tom… or Hillary.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  491. Watched- actually listened— to this train wreck again; neither one of these men made much sense in what they were saying. It was 90 minutes of fragments. And Wallace was just not in control of this from the get-go.

    But Biden’s line, ‘this is not 1950′ was hilarious- he would know; especially as he is dressed like it is 1956.

    If Putin isn’t smiling this morning, he’s not alive. Hell, he outta invade Poland at sunset.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  492. @493. Was thinking more like the ‘Morton Downey Jr. Show.’ Google it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  493. RIP Helen Reddy.

    She was woman; hear her roar; no more.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  494. @497. OTOH, Trump is not the problem. The problem was what GOT us Trump.

    Trump is a 1980’s Reagan Creation.

    There’s the source of your problem: Reaganomics.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  495. I only watched about ten minutes of them babbling at eachother. when Trump started bashing Biden’s son I realized this was unworthy of my eyes.
    Dustin (4237e0) — 9/29/2020 @ 7:27 pm

    Same here, brother. I turned it off and prayed “have mercy on us , O Lord.”

    felipe (023cc9)

  496. Wallace lost control early. I like him, but this debate was a failure.
    Paul Montagu (77c694) — 9/29/2020 @ 7:45 pm

    I completely agree, Paul. I especially fault Wallace’s wording “setting up” each question. He would have better served the listeners by simply stating his questions without the needless characterizations in his overwrought preambles.

    felipe (023cc9)

  497. Do you really believe that Trump’s rallies of adoring worshipers is “making your case to the people?” In Spanish, it’s called looking for a little mami cariño.
    nk (1d9030) — 9/29/2020 @ 7:45 pm

    Quite right, nk. But I think what we have here is a situation that calls for wooing more than pleading. No boy ever got the girl of his dreams with pleading. No, wooing is the way, especially if you can’t string two sentences together, can’t impress the girl’s friends much less her parents, or have even remotely nice friends.

    What we are witnessing is Beauty and the beast.

    felipe (023cc9)

  498. NorCal @477-
    Biden refused to take a stand on packing the court.

    If the Democrats pack the court, I will make a lateral move, and emigrate to a banana republic.

    The Democrats don’t need to pack the Court. They can simply deny the courts jurisdiction to rule on the topics of their choice.

    Rip Murdock (631d7a)

  499. The Democrats don’t need to pack the Court. They can simply deny the courts jurisdiction to rule on the topics of their choice.

    How convenient!

    norcal (a5428a)

  500. I watched this debate to watch Biden. I’ve seen Trump for four years – he’s a known quantity at this point. Biden was…disappointing. It’s clear he won’t be able to enact anything if president. He seems to think our country is in the 1980s, as if he’ll be Reagan and he can work with his Tip O’Neill.

    His economic plans are a joke. He showed his climate card when he wasn’t supposed to. He has no idea how to stop left-wing violence. And his proposal to add more police to the street? Are we supposed to believe that would even make it to the floor?

    It’s clear Biden will not stand up to China or try to change the dynamic in any way. He’s not going to bring back manufacturing; and he will kill the gas/oil industry, including fracking, when he gets the chance.

    But most alarming is the insistence that every right-wing fringe group belongs to Trump while all the left-wing fringe groups don’t belong to Biden. Wallace let Biden get away with stating that Antifa isn’t a group – just an “idea.” Isn’t white supremacy and “idea?”

    Biden crowed how he is a Catholic – but no one pressed him on how he squares his faith with his insistence of abortion on demand.

    He completely failed to answer the question of packing the court, or adding states to the union.

    Trump’s biggest mistake – not giving Biden more rope. If Trump had not interrupted Biden, Joe would have tongue-twisted himself into several corners.

    Too bad. I hate to say it, but the Biden presidency is going to be a rude awakening for many, including the NeverTrumpers. What’s the old saying about the devil you know versus the devil you don’t?

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  501. Both of these guys are turds. Biden is just a more highly polished one.

    norcal (a5428a)

  502. Both of these guys are turds. Biden is just a more highly polished one.

    Truer words were never spoken.

    To give a cruder analogy, one guy is like sewage wrapped in shiny gold paper. The other is like sewage wrapped in cellophane. The first one seems prettier. But fundamentally, they both stink.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  503. What’s the old saying about the devil you know versus the devil you don’t?

    If Trump felt that way, he’d still be married to Ivana and Stormy Daniels would be $130,000 poorer.

    nk (1d9030)

  504. But most alarming is the insistence that every right-wing fringe group belongs to Trump while all the left-wing fringe groups don’t belong to Biden. Wallace let Biden get away with stating that Antifa isn’t a group – just an “idea.” Isn’t white supremacy and “idea?”

    Biden’s response on LW violence didn’t get a lot of air because he was clear and concise that violence isn’t peaceful protest and that rioters should be prosecuted. He didn’t hedge. He didn’t make excuses for them. He didn’t try to shift blame. He was clear on the subject and all Trump could come back with was to accuse him of not saying what he’d just said.

    Trump couldn’t bring himself to do that. The exchange is below, in context. Trump didn’t condemn White Supremacists and right-wing militia. He did tell the proud boys to stand by because someone has to do something about Antifa. They love him for things like that.

    Biden condemns that violent actions of the far left.
    Trump excuses and justifies the violent actions of the far right.

    The far left hates Trump and dislikes Biden.
    The far right Loves trump and hates Biden.

    I’m sure you’ll tell me that I’m misinterpreting Trump’s meaning. So here’s what they thought he was telling them.

    Proud Boys organizer Joe Biggs also posted he was “standing by,” and said the president “basically said to go f— them up.”

    “President Trump told the proud boys to stand by because someone needs to deal with ANTIFA… well sir! we’re ready!!” Biggs wrote.

    Here are Trumps words in context

    Chris Wallace: (42:04)
    But what are you saying?

    President Donald J. Trump: (42:06)
    I’m willing to do anything. I want to see peace.

    Chris Wallace: (42:08)
    Well, do it, sir.

    Vice President Joe Biden: (42:09)
    Say it, do it say it.

    President Donald J. Trump: (42:10)
    What do you want to call them? Give me a name, give me a name, go ahead who do you want me to condemn.

    Chris Wallace: (42:14)
    White supremacist and right-wing militia.

    President Donald J. Trump: (42:18)
    Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I’ll tell you what somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem this is a left wing.

    Vice President Joe Biden: (42:28)
    He’s own FBI Director said unlike white supremacist, Antifa is an idea not an organization-

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  505. if the police are going to be disarmed, and citizens are at risk, with these terrorrist are going to be laying siege to businesses and persons, what’s the alternative,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  506. @515, Gosh, if only there were options between “Mobs of Armed White Supremist” and “Pure Anarchy”

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  507. I feel fine
    Talkin’ ’bout peace of mind
    Biden kicked Trump’s behind

    I might just watch the next debate. In the meantime, we can have fun with all the new conditions Stephen Miller comes up with. Biden has to provide a stool sample to prove that he is not eating an endangered species?

    nk (1d9030)

  508. no cochise, it’s the opposite, he had to fight that jackass wallace, who didn’t succeed, this decrepit old man, is the same jackass we saw in 2012, except ryan dropped his guard, and of course martha raddatz double teamed him,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  509. @515, Gosh, if only there were options between “Mobs of Armed White Supremist” and “Pure Anarchy”
    Time123 (52fb0e) — 9/30/2020 @ 6:17 am

    I don’t see mobs of white supremacists burning cities. I see mobs of leftwingers doing that.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  510. the Biden presidency is going to be a rude awakening for many, including the NeverTrumpers. What’s the old saying about the devil you know versus the devil you don’t?

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124) — 9/30/2020 @ 4:49 am

    Nah, we aren’t expecting much from Biden except that he won’t be a traitor like Trump. Trump’s gotta go. Biden is the price.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  511. Sounds like my decision to watch Netflix last night was a sound one. The debate sounds as much fun as an appointment with an angry dental technician.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  512. @512 BL, I have to admit it. You are more eloquent in your crudity. :)

    norcal (a5428a)

  513. he was a soviet tool going back to the 70s, my god putin would be in clover, if biden got in,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  514. I completely agree, Paul. I especially fault Wallace’s wording “setting up” each question. He would have better served the listeners by simply stating his questions without the needless characterizations in his overwrought preambles.

    felipe (023cc9) — 9/30/2020 @ 3:30 am

    Exactly right.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  515. Now that I’ve slept on it, one of the measures I used in evaluating the candidates was which one is the least mentally undiminished, and Trump was mentally unhinged last night. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about, and he doesn’t have a plan for anything. It’s all about Trump and it’s all about winning the moment.
    Biden stumbled in a few places, but he was dealing with constant interruptions and lies. Wallace and Biden showed up for a debate, but Trump decided to piss on the ground rules, bully-thug his way through the 90 minutes, and talk over both moderator and opponent. It was one of the lowest moments in American politics I’ve ever seen.
    Trump did not help himself when he condemned Antifa but would not equally condemn the racist Proud Boys.
    Trump did not help himself when he waffled on masks.
    Trump did not help himself when he said he would not accepted the certified election results, that “this is going to be a fraud like you’ve never seen.”
    Trump did not help himself with his onslaught of lies.
    He’s arguably the worst president in history, and he needs to lose badly.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  516. Nah, we aren’t expecting much from Biden except that he won’t be a traitor like Trump. Trump’s gotta go. Biden is the price.
    Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 6:34 am

    It is clear you are one of the “Trump is Putin’s Puppet” believer.

    Can you tell me what Putin has gained with Trump? How Trump has helped Putin in some way?

    Also, how is Russia a threat to the US these days? Are they gassing up their rusting tanks to take over Europe?

    Are you ready for more Obama/Biden foreign policy – which includes increasing our presence in foreign wars, instead of drawing down?

    Will Biden foster the Arab-Israeli normalization process we have seen, or pivot back to the pro-Iran stance of Obama?

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  517. 525. But he won’t. He may lose, but he won’t go quietly and he won’t lose badly in any event. Losing badly and accepting an egregious loss isn’t consistent with the TRUMP brand.

    Gryph (f63000)

  518. VP debate may have an interesting dynamic.

    First, unlike Trump, Pence will likely prepare, and approach the debate with some sort of plan.

    Since Pence has been a complete non-entity, apart from nodding his head at whatever Trump says, Harris will doubtless try to force him to defend Trump’s lunacy.

    Pence, on the other hand, has the choice of attacking Biden or Harris. Harris’ attacks on Biden in the early Dem debates will be one obvious source of material.

    Dave (1bb933) — 9/30/2020 @ 12:18 am

    This could be a great debate. Pence is smart, a great speaker. He and Harris are true believers in different ideas. Harris did not do well in the democratic debates, so Trump supporters should have a lot to enjoy too. Frankly it’s been a very tough year to be a Trump supporter, and this is a debate they should catch just for mental health relief.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  519. It is clear you are one of the “Trump is Putin’s Puppet” believer.

    Good.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  520. Can you tell me what Putin has gained with Trump? How Trump has helped Putin in some way?

    His abrupt retreat in Northern Syria greatly benefitted Russia.

    Also, how is Russia a threat to the US these days? Are they gassing up their rusting tanks to take over Europe?

    Their efforts to influence and destabilize eastern Europe aren’t in our national interest.

    Just off the top of my head.

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  521. Can a Trump fan help me keep up with plot? Is Joe a radical leftist? Is he a puppet of the left? Or does the left hate him?

    Donald J. Trump
    @realDonaldTrump
    Nobody wants Sleepy Joe as a leader, including the Radical Left (which he lost last night!). He disrespected Bernie, effectively calling him a loser!

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  522. Can you tell me what Putin has gained with Trump? How Trump has helped Putin in some way?

    Trump’s undermining NATO helps Putin.
    Trump’s undermining our relationships with democratic allies helps Putin.
    Trump’s cut-and-run from Kurdish Syria helped Putin.
    Trump’s doing nothing after Putin paid Talibaners to kill Americans serving our country helps Putin.
    Trump’s not saying one single contrary word to or about Putin helps Putin.
    Trump’s reticence to sanction Putin and his people helps Putin.
    Trump’s doing nothing while Putin insinuated himself in Venezuela helps Putin.
    Trump’s ongoing denials that Putin engaged in a “sweeping and systematic” effort to undermine our elections helps Putin.
    I could go on.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  523. Americans did the equivalent of one of Archie Bunker’s pantomimed suicides last night:

    Google searches for ‘move to Canada’ spike after presidential debate

    The presidential debate may send people up north instead of to the ballot box.

    Google searches for moving to Canada spiked after the 2020 presidential debate between President Trump and Democratic nominee Joe Biden.

    Queries for “how to apply for Canadian citizenship” skyrocketed about an hour into the yelling match between the two men, peaking around 10:30 p.m., according to Google.

    I’m guessing a lot of Canadians were probably searching for “build a wall”.

    Are we great again yet?

    Dave (1bb933)

  524. google does reveal remarkable stupidity, or maybe that’s just the algorithm works,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  525. His abrupt retreat in Northern Syria greatly benefitted Russia.

    Let the Russians have Syria. Putin can waste his men and resources in a morass that won’t be solved anytime soon. The Russians backed Assad long before Trump came along. No need to get involved in yet another Middle East debacle.

    Their efforts to influence and destabilize eastern Europe aren’t in our national interest.

    Russia has always tried to influence their near abroad, just like we have with ours. So far, Eastern Europe hasn’t changed much since Trump was elected so things don’t seem that bad to me.

    Trump’s doing nothing while Putin insinuated himself in Venezuela helps Putin.

    What would you like Biden to do in Venezuela? Send in troops? It’s a failed state – thanks in large part to policies that the left would like to enact here.

    Bottom line: Trump has not started any wars (like Democrats said he would) and has reduced our footprint in wars and conflicts across the globe.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  526. has reduced our footprint in wars and conflicts across the globe.

    Interesting assertion, can you back it up with data?

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  527. I do not stop and watch car crashes on the highway, and I did not watch last night’s wrestling event.

    One line I saw repeated about Biden: “I am the Democratic Party right now.”

    That means he and the party are one and the same; what they do, he does or will do.

    So, if you want the country as a whole to look like Seattle, Portland, New York and Chicago, all Democratic strongholds (not only run by Dems, but practically one-party jurisdictions), then vote Joe.

    (From what I gather, Trump did a really poor job in pressing home attacks on Joe, of which there are plenty.)

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  528. Can a Trump fan help me keep up with plot? Is Joe a radical leftist? Is he a puppet of the left? Or does the left hate him?

    There was a point in the debate last night where, within a period of thirty seconds or less, Trump criticized Biden for not wanting to shut anything down, and for wanting to shut everything down. And he made both contradictory charges with equal vehemence…

    Dave (1bb933)

  529. As far as Putin, Trump has talked one game, but many of his policies are not in Putin’s interest. The recent normalization of relations between Israel and two Arab countries (soon to be followed by more), hurts both Iran and Putin.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  530. Can a Trump fan help me keep up with plot? Is Joe a radical leftist? Is he a puppet of the left? Or does the left hate him?

    I am not Trump fan. But I would characterize him as a Potemkin moderate.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  531. Interesting assertion, can you back it up with data?
    Time123 (52fb0e) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:12 am

    You mean in places like Afghanistan?

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/30/politics/us-troops-afghanistan-drawdown/index.html

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  532. I am not Trump fan. But I would characterize him as a Potemkin moderate.
    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:14 am

    Agreed. Any semblance of Biden being a moderate is gone. He backs the Green New Deal. He’s good with packing the court. He’s good with adding more states to get more Democrats. He’s good with abortion on demand.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  533. I am not Trump fan. But I would characterize him as a Potemkin moderate.
    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:14 am

    Agreed. Any semblance of Biden being a moderate is gone. He backs the Green New Deal. He’s good with packing the court. He’s good with adding more states to get more Democrats. He’s good with abortion on demand.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:20 am

    He explicitly said he didn’t back GND.

    Also, per Trump’s quote, Biden has attacked the left and is being rejected by them. Are you calling Trump a liar?

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  534. Interesting assertion, can you back it up with data?
    Time123 (52fb0e) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:12 am

    You mean in places like Afghanistan?

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/30/politics/us-troops-afghanistan-drawdown/index.html

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:15 am

    My understanding is that our deployment numbers have been pretty constant and that Trump isn’t bringing troops home, just moving them to new places. Since you made the assertion I thought maybe you had the details.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  535. Can a Trump fan help me keep up with plot? Is Joe a radical leftist? Is he a puppet of the left? Or does the left hate him?

    I am not Trump fan. But I would characterize him as a Potemkin moderate.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:14 am

    I’m making fun of multiple, mutually exclusive, lines of attack.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  536. Can we get some perspective? Can we get … hell, I ain’t ashamed to say the word … values? What you’ve got a guy who cannot have a civil, coherent, orderly debate with a former United States Senator and former Vice President for ninety minutes, but instead behaves like a spoiled five-year old, and when criticized for it screams that the moderator was unfair to him. That’s what you’ve got.

    nk (1d9030)

  537. he made his pact with bernie, his denials are of the ‘you can keep your plan variety’

    re afghanistan, biden screwed up any hope we had to push through with the counterinsurgency strategy, in havor of his whackamole strategy in parts of afghanistan and yemen,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  538. no he has always been garbage, the minion of big banks, the slanderer of thomas and bork, the stooge for the soviets, the opponent to our own domestic energy production, and I could go on and on,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  539. @546: We’re talking a candidate who isn’t even in charge of writing his own tweets.

    Were FDR and LBJ radical leftists? Were they puppets of the left? They steered the country hard left anyway, because they surrounded themselves with leftists, and Biden will too. He already has. A Mao admirer for an advisor? Really?

    beer ‘n pretzels (134835)

  540. Obama made the same mistake with Iraq, that reducing our footprint there would somehow bring peace, going so far as to crow “I ended the war in Iraq”. It was a huge mistake to betray our Kurdish ally, and it’ll be a huge mistake if Trump works a deal with the Taliban. There are no good Taliban.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  541. Can we get … hell, I ain’t ashamed to say the word … values?

    “Can you believe people believe that bullsh*t?”

    Dave (1bb933)

  542. you can’t catch every single lie, that utters forth from that sock puppet,

    https://thefederalist.com/2020/09/30/fact-check-transcript-shows-trump-did-not-refuse-to-denounce-or-condemn-white-supremacy-at-debate/

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  543. Clearly this debate didn’t change any of our minds.

    But here’s what non-obsessive news junkies think. Pretty negative for Trump.

    In all, from 17 voters in swing states, 15 used negative words and just two used positive words or phrases to describe the president (that is, if you consider “an ass but a confident ass” to be a compliment).

    The focus group’s opinion of the debate tracks with a CBS poll, which found that 83 percent of debate watchers believed the tone of the evening to be “negative” while 17 percent thought it was “positive.” Which raises the question: What debate were those 17 percent watching?

    Now Biden:

    Positive: “Surprised” “better than expected” “more professional” “more a people person” “confident” “restraint and compassion” “leader” “attentative” “humanity” “integrity”

    Negative: “Politician” x2, “predictable” x2, “Nice guy but lacking vision” “Somewhat evasive”

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  544. He explicitly said he didn’t back GND.

    “‘If You Like Your Doctor, You Can Keep Your Doctor’” — That was explicit. Very explicit.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  545. Obama made the same mistake with Iraq, that reducing our footprint there would somehow bring peace, going so far as to crow “I ended the war in Iraq”. It was a huge mistake to betray our Kurdish ally, and it’ll be a huge mistake if Trump works a deal with the Taliban. There are no good Taliban.

    Paul Montagu (77c694) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:37 am

    Yes. Thank you for recognizing just how terrible Obama’s Iraq policy was. I interpreted it more cynically, as a refusal to let such a hard earned and important victory for President Bush persist. I’m a lot less partisan now, but I still feel that way.

    Trump’s entire foreign policy is bizarre if he’s really just an American serving American interests. It’s great there was an Israeli peace deal of course, but Trump didn’t make that deal. A cold hot dog on the resolute desk would have a vastly superior foreign policy to this guy.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  546. Trump’s incoherence on masks–up to and including last night’s debate–is why we have so many dead Americans from CV19.

    Chris Wallace: (06:04)
    President Trump, you have begun to increasingly question the effectiveness of masks as a disease preventer. And in fact, recently you have cited the issue of waiters touching their masks and touching plates. Are you questioning the efficacy of masks?
    President Donald J. Trump: (06:20)
    No, I think masks are okay. You have to understand, if you look… I mean, I have a mask right here. I put a mask on when I think I need it. Tonight, as an example, everybody’s had a test and you’ve had social distancing and all of the things that you have to, but I wear masks-
    Vice President Joe Biden: (06:33)
    Just like your rally.
    President Donald J. Trump: (06:33)
    … when needed. When needed, I wear masks.
    Chris Wallace: (06:35)
    Okay. Let me ask-
    President Donald J. Trump: (06:36)
    I don’t wear a mask like him. Every time you see him, he’s got a mask. He could be speaking 200 feet away from him and he shows up with the biggest mask I’ve ever seen. I will say this-
    Chris Wallace: (06:45)
    Vice President Biden, go ahead, sir.
    Vice President Joe Biden: (06:48)
    Look, the way to open businesses is give them the wherewithal to be able open. We provided money, the-
    Chris Wallace: (06:55)
    But I was asking you, sir, about masks.
    Vice President Joe Biden: (06:56)
    Well, masks make a big difference. His own head of the CDC said if we just wore masks between now, if everybody wore a mask and social distanced between now and January, we’d probably save up to 100,000 lives. It matters. It matters.
    President Donald J. Trump: (07:10)
    And they’ve also said the opposite. They’ve also said-
    Vice President Joe Biden: (07:12)
    No serious person has said the opposite. No serious person.
    Chris Wallace: (07:14)
    Okay. I want to ask you-
    President Donald J. Trump: (07:17)
    Dr. Fauci. Dr. Fauci said the opposite.
    Vice President Joe Biden: (07:18)
    He did not say the opposite.
    Chris Wallace: (07:19)
    I want to ask you, we’ve got a little than a minute left in this segment.
    President Donald J. Trump: (07:22)
    He said very strongly, “Masks are not good.” Then he changed his mind. He said, “Masks are good.”

    Fauci never said “masks are not good”. The blood of tens of thousands of dead Americans is on Trump’s hands.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  547. That was explicit. Very explicit.

    It was also true for most people.

    Dave (1bb933)

  548. He explicitly said he didn’t back GND.

    Also, per Trump’s quote, Biden has attacked the left and is being rejected by them. Are you calling Trump a liar?

    Time123 (52fb0e) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:25 am

    You’re right and you’re also clever in your analysis. Trump indeed did criticize Biden for positions the left would all reject. But I think Trump’s strategy was to just be as pushy as possible to break Biden in some historic first debate gaffe, and he wasn’t thinking about anything but mocking Biden. Mocking him losing the left makes sense from Trump’s point of view and strategy, but to Biden and the audience, moving center is what all presidential candidates do.

    Biden probably would have made gaffes if Trump hadn’t filled every second of both candidate’s time with filibuster. It’s actually pretty easy to defend Biden just using Trump’s comments now.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  549. biden was complicit in this, he is the midwife of the islamic state, needless to say he empowered maliki, who was as against the iraq war, as lenin was against world war one, facts don’t matter

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  550. It was also true for most people.

    And this summer’s protests were “mostly peaceful.” Even in those in neighborhoods that were destroyed.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  551. Can we get … hell, I ain’t ashamed to say the word … values?

    You must have been quite worried back when Clinton was getting hummers in the Oval Office and staining a blue dress.

    But I’m sure Biden will be better. I’m sure his son won’t enrich himself with foreign dealings while his dad is president, like he did when dad was VP.

    I’m sure Biden will remain true to his purported Catholic values and push back on the Democrat belief of abortion on demand.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  552. He explicitly said he didn’t back GND.

    He explicitly said his GND would pay for itself.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  553. I really don’t understand how anybody could watch that freak show. Trump ignoring all rules, agreements or manners. Wallace losing control almost immediately, and resorting to yelling “I’m the moderator!” which means he no longer is. Biden, I dunno. If it was me, I would have said Eff this and walked out. I cannot see him returning for any more debates, and no one (other than the people who claim Trump won) would blame him.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  554. You must have been quite worried back when Clinton was getting hummers in the Oval Office and staining a blue dress.

    It’s so weird that Trump supporters do this. You’re 100% zealous and moral condemnation of anyone who isn’t Trump. But if you’re really saying to reject presidents over sexual scandal, Trump has done so much worse than that, so many times, even bragging about it. Is morality just something we should use as a partisan weapon, deploying it selectively, otherwise not taking it seriously?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  555. Trump’s incoherence on masks–up to and including last night’s debate–is why we have so many dead Americans from CV19.

    Yes, that was a striking exchange. Trump briefly tried to feign reasonableness on masks, but he couldn’t keep up the facade for more than a few seconds, and retreated to his true position that has cost tens of thousands of Americans their lives.

    In a normal debate that would have been one of the stumbles rehashed afterward, but here it was instantly lost in the raging torrent of Trump’s bullsh*t.

    Dave (1bb933)

  556. He explicitly said he didn’t back GND.

    And you believe him.

    beer ‘n pretzels (0b07b1)

  557. It’s so weird that Trump supporters do this. You’re 100% zealous and moral condemnation of anyone who isn’t Trump. But if you’re really saying to reject presidents over sexual scandal, Trump has done so much worse than that, so many times, even bragging about it. Is morality just something we should use as a partisan weapon, deploying it selectively, otherwise not taking it seriously?
    Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 8:00 am

    It’s weird that NeverTrumpers do this. Trump is a moral reprobate. But I don’t really care what he does in his personal life, as long as he’s not doing it in the White House. Clinton could get all the hummers he wanted, just not in the Oval Office.

    Clinton used the White House as a pickup bar. Democrats didn’t care, neither did the NeverTrumpers. So don’t cry about values and such now.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  558. rump’s incoherence on masks–up to and including last night’s debate–is why we have so many dead Americans from CV19.

    Does Governor Cuomo’s decision to send sick patients back to their nursing homes to spread COVID among the most vulnerable have anything to do with it?

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  559. We need to rediscover the idea that in an evenly divided country, it’s a good thing if both sides get some of what they want, and it’s to be expected that neither side gets everything.

    It’s evenly divided because no one has a convincing path forward. No leadership. All we have are managers, letting the ship of state move with inertia. Or Trump who ineffectually demands it turn sharply, but has no idea how to do that, and doesn’t appreciate any smartypants who does.

    The Democrats have chosen the one path that has failed in every country, every time it has been tried, but Trump has left such a vacuum in the other side that they are probably going to get their way for a while. I figure two years, like Obama got, then the reaction.

    At least Trump will be in jail. I think that the Republicans will complain loudly about that, but like the Saudis with Israel, be quietly pleased.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  560. If you think my take on the debate is that Trump burned down his presidency last night, you’d be wrong. That was simply the coup de grace.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  561. BTW, this comment section demonstrates just how far down the rabbit hole Instapundit has gone:

    https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/403707/

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  562. You must have been quite worried back when Clinton was getting hummers in the Oval Office and staining a blue dress.

    Classic, that Clinton’s immoral behavior somehow justifies Trump’s, as if everyone who criticized Trump’s bully-thuggishness took a pass on Clinton’s serial sexual abuse. The illogic still amazes.

    Given that last night’s scrumfest probably helped Biden and hurt Trump, I hope Biden shows up for the next two debates. He should honor his deal with the Presidential Debate Commission. I worry more about whether Steve Scully shows up. He needs to lay out some ground rules, including shutting off the mike when the belligerence gets out of hand.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  563. It’s true: 1 in 1,000 Black Americans have died in the Covid-19 pandemic

    Well, OK, but 1 out of 1600 Americans of any sort have also died.

    It’s worse for blacks, and probably worse for low-income Americans of any description. People who don’t have alternatives to working during the pandemic are most at risk. But it isn’t great for anyone.

    And I’m going to bet that Native Americans are even harder hit.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  564. It’s true: 1 in 1,000 Black Americans have died in the Covid-19 pandemic

    So DeSantis knew what he was doing when he lifted all the coronavirus restrictions. And there I thought he was going only after the elderly.

    nk (1d9030)

  565. The real question about Covid’s disparate impact is “Why?”

    The easy answer is economic, but the virus could have racial affinities. According to official numbers, it’s only killed about 1 in 250,000 Chinese.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  566. According to official numbers, it’s only killed about 1 in 250,000 Chinese.

    It’s all the fortune cookies. Gives them a high rate of immunity.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  567. Still it’s less than the 8000 killed in Stalin’s purges.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  568. Does Governor Cuomo’s decision to send sick patients back to their nursing homes to spread COVID among the most vulnerable have anything to do with it?

    Cuomo runs a state of 19.5 million, Trump runs a country of 331.5 million. I think it’s more than possible that neither politician gets a full share of the blame.
    Cuomo is to blame for delaying mitigation and for mishandling nursing homes. Cuomo also gets credit for containing the virus in his state. Since June, new cases have stabilized and deaths have reduced to a trickle.
    Trump is to blame for not taking virus seriously, for lying to the American people daily about the virus and what his administration is doing and not doing, for presiding over a botched testing regime, for ignoring his scientists on social distancing and masks, for coercing his scientists on all manners of things, for setting a terrible personal example on social distancing. Trumps gets the blame for our country not containing the virus while so many European and Asian countries and Canada/Australia/New Zealand have succeeded. Yesterday, we had 44,227 new cases and 977 more deaths. It’s not contained, and that’s on Trump.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  569. I think it’s more than possible that neither politician gets a full share of the blame.

    I think I’d blame China a bit, too.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  570. It’s evenly divided because no one has a convincing path forward.

    I would say “because neither party’s maximalism is a viable strategy for governing.”

    The Democrats have chosen the one path that has failed in every country, every time it has been tried

    This is an obvious exaggeration. If the Democrats were in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or Britain itself, they would be to the right of the political center. While I much prefer our system (pre-Trump) to theirs, it’s silly to suggest that any country governed by center-left parties is North Korea or Venezuela.

    Dave (1bb933)

  571. He is trying to discredit the election because he is behind. He has dictator tendencies and a Proud Boy honorary membership, as of last night. But… should I vote for him?

    My friends insist that I must vote for Trump because he’s pro-life. First, in my opinion, he is not. He is supporting conservative judges because that is his ticket to power. I wouldn’t vote for Vladimir Putin if he claimed to be pro-life and I won’t vote for this Putin wannabe either.

    America is a light to the world. And Trump is a black hole.

    noel (9fead1)

  572. I think I’d blame China a bit, too.

    Yep, Xi and his Chinese Communist Party, too.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  573. If the Democrats were in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or Britain itself, they would be to the right of the political center.

    Laughable. Biden plagiarized a Labour Party speech for a reason.

    That the Dems have so far failed to establish the equivalent here is not from lack of intent.

    beer ‘n pretzels (cefa55)

  574. Laughable. Biden plagiarized a Labour Party speech for a reason.

    Squirrel alert!

    Dave (1bb933)

  575. @346

    OK, I have not read all the comments but I have a serious question for the Trump fans:

    Do you think Trump came off looking good tonight?

    Patterico (115b1f) — 9/29/2020 @ 7:59 pm

    He was Trumpy.

    Meaning, those already voting for him won’t NOT vote him.

    I doubt he did anything for those “swing voters” as well.

    I don’t think Biden did well for “swing voters” either.

    Still…an absolute sh!tshow.

    whembly (c30c83)

  576. Trump is a moral reprobate. But I don’t really care what he does in his personal life, as long as he’s not doing it in the White House.

    It’s a neat trick to pretend that all the criticism of Trump’s abysmally bad character is only about his “personal life,” while most critics have focused more on his gross dishonesty and egregious selfishness, and his belief that anything he does for his own benefit cannot be wrong.

    There are people speaking publicly about the unethical behavior they have observed in the White House, and Trump’s self-centered approach to making policy decisions, and his stunning stupidity and laziness.

    A president who spends 45 minutes of an urgent public-health task force meeting whining about what someone said about him on Fox and trying to get someone to volunteer to fix that “problem” is unfit for a position of any responsibility.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  577. @383

    Hmm

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Barnes_Law/status/1311143133493653504?s=20

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5) — 9/29/2020 @ 8:45 pm

    That’s… actually a great point.

    For those who don’t twittah:

    Trump’s other objective tonight was to get Biden to divorce the millennial lefties publicly b/c they are the reason the enthusiasm gap hurts Biden. Biden disowned almost every one of their favorite trending topics, from the green new deal to medicare for all to defund the police.

    I will also add that Biden wouldn’t answer court packing too.

    whembly (c30c83)

  578. If the Democrats were in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or Britain itself, they would be to the right of the political center.

    No, Biden and the Old Democrats perhaps. But not the young’uns.

    The party that calls for a “national mobilization” to combat climate change, with massive changes to every structure now existing, elimination of the entire energy infrastructure and replacing it with something not only untied, but unlikely (e.g. 24-hour solar power), free this and free that and government-run the other thing. No, that’s not mainstream anywhere. It’s the German Green Party on steroids.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  579. @558

    It was also true for most people.

    Obama didn’t say “most people.” His statements were unconditional and emphatic. He said he wouldn’t sign a bill that would make people lose their plans or their doctors, period — when he must have known that the Dems were writing a bill that would make many existing plans unacceptable by law. And he signed it into law.

    Millions of people lost their insurance plans and were left with a narrower range of choices — only one or two insurers — and many are now paying more for less. If those people don’t matter in the assessment of whether Obama spoke truthfully, then do the 200,000+ people who have died of Covid matter in the assessment of whether Trump has handled it well?

    FWIW, I think Obama is less dishonest than Trump, and in most respects a better human being, even if I disliked many of his policies. But I also think he wasn’t even trying to be honest in saying “You can keep your plan, period.”

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  580. it’s silly to suggest that any country governed by center-left parties is North Korea or Venezuela.

    I don’t have to go that far. The Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Albania, Poland, Vietnam, Bulgaria, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, China, East Germany, Cuba, Tanzania, Laos, South Yemen, Somalia, the Congo, Ethiopia, Cambodia, Mozambique, Angola, Nicaragua and other places at times (e.g. UK under Old Labour).

    It’s just never been done right.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  581. BTW, China today is not a Socialist country so much as a one-party fascism.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  582. ‘Clown’ and ‘why don’t you shut up’ didn’t work for Biden any more than it did for Little Marco or Lyin’ Ted when they tried to go ‘Trump.’ That’s his act, Joe. Plagiarizing another fellas routine may be SOP for Joe but it sounds dishonest and unnatural from him.

    So much for the ‘be honest’ strategy. That died a quick death, eh JoeyBee?!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  583. Re: the ACA — the increased cost to employers also meant that many employees had their hours reduced so that employers wouldn’t need to pay for their now-pricier insurance. And taxpayers are now subsidizing insurance for many people who used to get it from employers or buy it on their own.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  584. From link @589

    Biden disowned almost every one of their favorite trending topics, from the green new deal to medicare for all to defund the police.

    And here is the difference between BIDEN and Biden’s party. Guess which way Kamala breaks.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  585. When you ride with biden

    https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/403743/#disqus_thread

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  586. The most terrible thing about the ACA is that people who used to be in an insurance pool called “self-insuring individuals” were FORCED into a pool called “self-insuring individuals plus the indigent and/or uninsurable.” This affected the risk and the premiums.

    These increased premiums were, of course, supposed to be subsidized in a way that made those subsidized immune to any increases in risk or premium costs. But those subsidies had a hard income cap that was not indexed to age. The premiums WERE indexed to age.

    As of a few years ago, a 64-yo couple who made $62,000/year paid maybe $3,000 in premiums for a mediocre plan. If their income increased slightly, they would pay $20,000 in premiums for a catastrophic plan that paid nothing until bills topped $15K.

    It was really only wonderful for some. A nightmare for others.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  587. The polls that come out later in the week are going to be devastating for Trump.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  588. @599. See #30. Five weeks is ten life times and ten thousand news cycles.

    If Biden want to run like Dewey, so be it.

    ‘The little man on top of a wedding cake.’- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  589. It’s weird that NeverTrumpers do this. Trump is a moral reprobate. But I don’t really care

    It is not weird that I do care. I have no clue why you said that was weird except to feel better about it.

    You’re the one who condemned Bill Clinton for the blue dress thing, right before saying you don’t care if a guy on your side is not moral. Why do you pretend you are so upset about sinful behavior if you “don’t really care” about it? Why weaponize shame if you’re just pretending?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  590. And here is the difference between BIDEN and Biden’s party. Guess which way Kamala breaks.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/30/2020 @ 9:22 am

    We need to start recognizing this. If Biden wins, he will be the mushy bleh to a party gearing up to go left on a lot of things. Nevertrumpers warned this would happen, but putting blame aside, it’s important that the 2022 elections bring something back to counter.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  591. Meaning, those already voting for him won’t NOT vote him.

    Whembly might be right. If people had the same moral compass I did, Trump wouldn’t have received a single vote in the GOP primary and Cruz or Kasich would be sailing to a re-election after the nation rallied around him in a year of crisis. There would be problems, and I imagine the police reform issue would still exist, but handled very differently, no tear gas Church Photo nonsense.

    People like me saw Trump say he didn’t know who Beau Biden was, and start bashing Hunter Biden, and wouldn’t vote for Trump ever, just with that solitary moment in mind. But people aren’t all like me. People heard Trump brag he grabbed women wherever and whenever he wanted their body, and voted for him. People heard Muslim Ban and cheered. People see racist punks and want to stand by for more racist punks, while acting super offended anyone just plainly speaks about what this is.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  592. 126.

    Except there’s no evidence Shokin and Lutsenko were investigating Burisma.

    Paul Montagu (77c694) — 9/29/2020 @ 5:53 pm

    Bolivar di griz (narciso) claimed that Shokin was investigating something else that the head of burisma owned: privat bank.

    This would require some time to look into what that claim is all about.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  593. 128, Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/29/2020 @ 6:02 pm

    They could even pass a law doubling his tax back 20 years. At least as far as current precedent is concerned. I think it could be called a taking though. I also think it would be a huge slap in the face of the Rule of Law.

    They are more likely to do it where there is a specific issue of unfairness already in question. Ad when it’s somebody as politically controversial as he is.

    So again Trump would not like to make the details public.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  594. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:50 am

    The blood of tens of thousands of dead Americans is on Trump’s hands.

    That would be ion the basis that he got more people totransmit the disease.

    If we’re talking that way, the blood of how many Israelis (and others) is on the hands of those who demonized hydroxychloroquine, (as well as dragging their feet on other treatments, even convalescent fluid):

    https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israels-covid-silence-mystery

    Why do we now have over 1,200 deaths when, in the peak of the first curve, our mortality rate was just over 300? Why the 400% difference?…

    …Officials and pundits talk endlessly about testing, social distancing, lockdown, but little else. They are worried about hospitals and laboratories becoming overloaded with seriously infected patients.

    But no one is talking about how to stop early stage sufferers from deteriorating into hospitalization and worse.

    Are our local doctors and clinics being allowed to do everything possible to stop early stage patients from becoming hospitalized and dying?

    The answer is no. They are not. In fact, these first-line physicians, who have intimate professional contact with their patients, are being prevented from treating them successfully.

    Were Israeli doctors prescribing something in the first wave that prevented massive mortality figures they are not prescribing now?

    The answer is yes.

    Local doctors and clinics are being prevented from prescribing a drug that worked before, but is banned now. The drug that dare not speak its name is hydroxychloroquine. Medical experts are forbidden on social media to mention its name. Some have been fired from their professional for daring to suggest that this drug, in combination with others, has saved countless lives.

    Now that ban has been placed on Israeli local physicians, and more people are dying.

    HCQ is a drug that received global official status use for a number of illnesses and diseases. It has a remarkable sixty-year safety record. Overnight, it became the devil’s potion.

    Many hundreds of doctors and thousands of patients who swear to its efficacy when used on early stage sufferers in the right dose and in combination with other medications such as zinc and azithromycin, have been pilloried and banned from expressing their data and from sharing their experiences. Professional physicians, in intimate contact with their private patients, are treated like heretics.

    The authorities say HCQ failed late stage clinical trials. They claim it left a few patients with heart irregularities, a claim refuted by many experts, including Dr. Harvey Risch, Professor of Epidemiology at the Yale School of Medicine, who is highly critical about how badly the clinical trials were conducted.

    After studying the clinical trials, he concluded, among the things, that they applied the drug incorrectly, even in dangerously high dosages, often not in combination with other drugs, to patients who had little chance of surviving with any drug.

    Professor Risch is an ardent advocate for the application of HCQ in combination with other medications to early stage patients, as is Dr. Vladimir Zelenko, an Orthodox American physician, who came up with the Zelenko Protocol which details, for local doctors and clinics dealing with early stage Covid patients, how to prescribe and monitor patients starting in the first five days of contracting the coronavirus….

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  595. Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 10:22 am

    If Biden wins, he will be the mushy bleh to a party gearing up to go left on a lot of things.

    Biden claimed in the debate that he is the party. Sort of like Louis XIV?

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  596. If we’re talking that way, the blood of how many Israelis (and others) is on the hands of those who demonized hydroxychloroquine…

    Dr. Risch is a quack, Sammy. I advise against taking his assertions at face value. The HCQ conclusions in Israel were anecdotal, not any sort of clinical trial.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  597. Biden claimed in the debate that he is the party. Sort of like Louis XIV?

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 9/30/2020 @ 1:11 pm

    I have no idea why he would say that. I guess he sees himself as the center, and thinks he has coattails, or he’s just trying to look like a leader, since he doesn’t actually have leadership experience, really.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  598. Bolivar di griz (narciso) claimed that Shokin was investigating something else that the head of burisma owned: privat bank.

    Shokin wasn’t investigating Zlochevsky either, Sammy. The prosecutor literally obstructed a UK investigation into a $23 million money-laundering scheme.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  599. Here’s more on Ratcliffe rat-f*cking himself, peddling Russian propaganda to Lindsey Graham.

    WASHINGTON—Senior U.S. officials urged Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe not to release information about a Russian intelligence product containing unverified allegations about Hillary Clinton and the 2016 election, advice that President Trump’s spy chief ignored, according to people familiar with the matter.
    Officials at the Central Intelligence Agency and National Security Agency, as well as nonpolitical career personnel within Mr. Ratcliffe’s office, feared that sharing the information with Congress would give credence to unsubstantiated Kremlin-backed material. They argued the claim was sourced to Russian intelligence services that interfered in the 2016 election to denigrate Mrs. Clinton, and could have been deliberate disinformation, the people said.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  600. Today, a federal judge ruled to un-redact the portions of the Mueller report that were shrouded under “executive privilege”.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  601. Another day, another 40,000-plus new cases and almost 1,000 more deaths. Winning!

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  602. @613. It rained someplace today, too. Running against Mother Nature is a squirrel trail.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  603. @613. It rained someplace today, too. Running against Mother Nature is a squirrel trail.

    And yet Canada, New Zealand, Australia, most of Europe and most of Asia contained the virus. Why are they succeeding while we’re tackling the virus like one of those sh*thole countries?

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  604. Forgot to say I learned that Biden can dish it out, but can’t take it.
    Go back and watch how VP Biden behaved when he heckled, laughed and lied during his “debate” with Paul Ryan.

    The medai thought it was funny

    Trump no doubt was shown that video during prep

    steveg (43b7a5)

  605. Biden claimed in the debate that he is the party. Sort of like Louis XIV?

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 9/30/2020 @ 1:11 pm

    Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 3:37 pm

    I have no idea why he would say that. I guess he sees himself as the center, and thinks he has coattails, or he’s just trying to look like a leader, since he doesn’t actually have leadership experience, really.

    It;s an awkward way of saying that (for nw he qualified it) the Democratic Party position is what he has endorsed and not what anybody else says, and Trump should only pay attention – and attack if he wants – to what he has come out in favor if, never mind AOC or Bernie Sanders.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  606. The following appears to show Joe Biden actually in charge (of propaganda anyway)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/01/us/politics/health-care-senate-democrats-supreme-court.html

    With Republicans bent on portraying the Democrats’ opposition to Judge Barrett as an attack on religious freedom based on her devout Catholicism, Democrats are determined to steer their criticism elsewhere, highlighting an issue that polls show is a top concern for voters. The plan was cemented in a recent discussion between Mr. Schumer, Speaker Nancy Pelosi and former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., the Democratic presidential nominee, who agreed the best way to confront Mr. Trump’s election-season confirmation push was with a singular focus on the potential threat to health care, rather than on personal attacks on Judge Barrett.

    Now what;s wrong with that? It’s a lie.

    But it is one that Trump would have trouble disputing. (and he didn’t during the debate)

    The issue, when and if explained, is that there is a lawsuit brought by some states, (that Trump decided to join in) that won an victory in some appeals court, challenging the PPACA that the Supreme Court is scheduled to hear a week after the election.

    The problem with the claim – if that’s what he intends to claim – that Amy Barrett would destroy Obamacare is that Trump probably is not so interested in this case, and it’s a very legally unsound case

    It basically argues that the Supreme Court upheld the individual mandate on the grounds it is tax, and that by zeroing it out, Congress eliminated the tax, and that other provisions in Obamacare like making it illegal to set higher rates for insuring people with pre-existing conditions would have to fall because that part of the law can’t be severed. The problem with that argument is 1) that the court never ruled that way, and 2) severability is an issue when you surprise Congress by knocking out some provisions of a law, but here when Congress zeroed out the individual mandate Congress knew exactly what it was getting.

    https://www.cbpp.org/research/health/suit-challenging-aca-legally-suspect-but-threatens-loss-of-coverage-for-tens-of

    Trump probably thinks he’s pandering by joining in in that lawsuit, but actually it’s political, if not legal, malpractice.

    So anyway. Joe Biden got together with Nancy Pelosi and Charles Schumer to oppose confirmation of Amy Coney Barrett on the grounds that she’ll vote to knock out the Affordable Care Act. Without evidence as some media like to say.

    Joe Biden also claimed 100 million people could be affected. As the Wall Street Journal wrote in an editorial, that number is way exaggerated and appears to be arrived at by including every person with some kind of a pre-existing condition who is not on Medicare or Medicaid. There are 160 million people getting insurance through employers who would not be affected (because they never excluded people with pre-existing conditions although they did, and still do I think, charge higher rates to eemployers with more medical costs)

    The number of people with pre-existing conditions getting insurance through Obamacare is something like 2.7 million. And what they get is not all so great. Obamacare insurance usually has narrow networks. Many leading cancer hospitals are not in many policies and in Texas, Anderson does not take a single insurance policy sold through Obamacare.

    Ad against that if course, is that Republicans have nit come up with any substitute. There are ideas on the right, but they probably involve spending money. The basic conservative idea is to take a lot of medical care out of the standard insurance system. (both routine care and high risk care. The problem is Republicans don’t want to pay for the high risk care, and there’s no way to make the numbers add up without it.)

    There are other ideas like giving every citizen a refundable tax credit and you can come up with many ideas to attach to it to give people some kind of point of purchase interest in lower prices. I would tweak that a number of ways.

    I would give a certain amount of credit that couldn’t be used for insurance and that would also go away if not used, some in one year and some more in two, and allow it to be used to purchase medical practice credit – but limit the amount any doctor or medical practice could have outstanding, and allow any excess also to be donated to someone else.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  607. 608. . Paul Montagu (77c694) — 9/30/2020 @ 3:35 pm

    The HCQ conclusions in Israel were anecdotal, not any sort of clinical trial.

    Dr zelenko claims to have made astudy. HCQ only has a mild effect, and if you give it to people where isasuspicion of exposure most won;t come down with it anyway.

    The virus may have been worse in Israel the second time because Netanyahu thought he beat it back when all he did was reset the clock back to February and they didn’t do lockdowns early the second time.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

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