Joe Biden On National Mask Mandate: Then and Now
[guest post by Dana]
He was against it before he was for it. One week ago, Biden said this about a mask mandate:
Asked to respond to the governors who had appreciated President Trump’s more targeted coronavirus approach, which gave more authority to the states, Biden said, “Well, I hope you could trust the governors.
“But here’s the deal, the federal government — there’s a constitutional issue whether federal government could issue such a mandate. I don’t think constitutionally they could, so I wouldn’t issue a mandate.”
Given the legal challenges, Biden said, he would “plead with” people to wear a mask, adding, “I’d set an example.”
Biden then noted that case rates were dropping in places where local authorities had implemented mask orders.
“It’s about making sure the public is safe and secure, and that is a local decision but there should be national standards laid out as to how it should be gone about. You can’t mandate that,” he continued
Former Vice President Joe Biden is not ruling out the possibility of instituting a federal mask mandate if elected in November to deliver on previous calls for nationwide mask use as the country continues to grapple with the impacts of COVID-19.
“Our legal team thinks I can do that based upon the degree to which there’s a crisis in those states, and how bad things are for the country, and if we don’t do it, what happens,” Biden said of his ability to act federally if states decline to take action.
“The question is whether I have the legal authority as president to sign an executive order. We think we do,” Biden later added, stressing that he would make the case along with scientists to both Republican and Democratic governors about the necessity of a mandate before acting federally.
–Dana
Good morning.
Dana (292df6) — 9/17/2020 @ 6:25 amWell he’s not Trump. And that’s the best platform in someone’s lifetime.
Bored Lawyer (7b72ec) — 9/17/2020 @ 6:27 amDana,
Statement 1: I want to mandate masks, but I don’t think I have the legal authority so I would try to persuade people.
Time123 (f5cf77) — 9/17/2020 @ 6:35 amStatement 2: We think we might have the legal authority in certain limited circumstances, and would try to build a consensus about that action use that authority in a bipartisan manner.
hit submit too soon, I wanted to ask what was wrong with that?
Time123 (f5cf77) — 9/17/2020 @ 6:35 amthey will subject to it, and everything else, mandate vaccines, issue certificates, because you will have given consent,
bolivar de gris (7404b5) — 9/17/2020 @ 6:43 amIf they get away with it,it’s constitutional now.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/17/2020 @ 6:57 ambecause you will have given consent,
“By signing this income tax return, you give consent to ________ and _________ and _________.”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/17/2020 @ 6:58 amAnd wait until Kamala unveils her plans for guns. As California has already started, “arms” will be redefined to be something the government approves, but nothing you currently possess will be on that list. The Constitution means nothing to these people other than some form that has to be met in some grudging and cramped manner.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:01 amTime123,
I’m not saying there’s anything necessarily wrong with his statement, other than this one is open-ended and vague as to specifics, and his latest comments semi-contradicts his previous statement on the issue of federal mask mandates.
It leaves wide open exactly what defines the criteria for “limited circumstances”. Which states? What is the threshold a state must hit to be targeted for by federal mandate? Why would the circumstances allow for a selective federal mandate? How long would one be in place, and how would enforcement/penalties work, and who would be in charge of those?
I realize it’s early-on, and no specific plan has been articulated. I also understand that Biden is presenting a stark contrast to Trump’s anemic reaction to Covid as well demonstrating that he is ready to get a grip on the pandemic. And I don’t doubt that he will follow through on getting our pandemic fight onto a more effective track. But I think its sloppy to throw statements out that are not necessarily in sync from week to week. Obviously, an EO is a much more likely avenue than any attempted act of Congress, which would face Constitutional issues.
Dana (292df6) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:01 ama mask mandate, offers little assurance, a mandated vaccine more so, so how much power are you willing to grant them, seeing as they have wiped out all elected opposition in california and new york, they can do whatever to you,
bolivar de gris (7404b5) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:05 amDana, those are all good questions and the quoted material doesn’t have those specifics. It’s likely that they haven’t worked out those specifics, since the people who have the expertise to develop them work for the CDC. What he did give us were guidelines on how they’d be developed.
-Evidence based.
-Limited, by both law and need.
-Targeted at a specific outcome
-In collaboration with state leaders.
Obviously this is vague, but it’s a least a sense on what wants to do, or at least what he thinks people want to hear.
Time123 (f5cf77) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:18 amYes, Trump has established a lot of new norms with the emergency powers act and tariffs, that Kamala Harris will use in ways we hate. It will be hard to push back, since the HOR can’t compel people to testify.
An administration that’s run competently will use those powers in ways that are harder to summarize and thus harder to build public outrage over.
Time123 (7cca75) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:43 amAnother example of politician politicizing the pandemic:
https://fox17.com/news/local/covid-19-emails-from-nashville-mayors-office-show-disturbing-revelation
I mean… tars and feathers is warranted.
whembly (c30c83) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:45 amFrom a Times article that needs an account on June 25th
On August 13th
Then the sequence you’ve got above started.
frosty (f27e97) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:47 amHe was against it before he was for it.He was for it, then sort of against it, and then for it again. Or more correctly, his team knows it’s unconstitutional and doesn’t poll well but it’s still something they are going to try.Biden sounded old and confused yesterday, not to mention wrong about his authority.
Paul Montagu (1fbb64) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:56 amTrump sounded dishonest and delusional yesterday.
This is what the two major political parties have given the American people as their pinnacles.
Time123 (f5cf77) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:18 am
This runs counter to
How can it be evidence based and targeted to a specific outcome and also vague but giving a sense of what it will do? How can it be limited by law when they are already saying it’s not about your rights? It sounds like you’ve got a lot of faith that you are trying to relabel.
frosty (f27e97) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:58 amNo, he was for it before he was againat it, before he was for it again.
Always gotta pay attention to these focus groups.
Sammy Finkelman (b1f8c4) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:59 am3. Time123 (f5cf77) — 9/17/2020 @ 6:35 am
That was Statement 2. We now have Statement 3.
Sammy Finkelman (b1f8c4) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:02 amTime123
The legal reasoning probably. Democrats have very creative lawyers.
Sammy Finkelman (b1f8c4) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:03 amIt Votes For The Biden Or It Gets The Riots Again
https://thefederalist.com/2020/09/15/it-votes-biden-or-it-gets-the-riots-again/
__ _
The Biden/Harris campaign platform in one slogan
harkin (820d1b) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:12 am_
How can it be evidence based and targeted to a specific outcome and also vague.
By not having worked out the details yet. They want everyone to wear a mask. They admit they won’t have the power to compel that in all cases. They believe they have the power to compel it in limited circumstances. They either haven’t worked out, or haven’t released, what those limited circumstances are.
If he had been in power for a month and had the CDC working for him the lack of specifics would be inexcusable. But at this point it makes sense.
For example I want to take a scenic drive through the north east. I want to see a number of historical places in a week and minimize the time I spend on highways so I can better see the area. I don’t know what my route will be, but I those are what I’m going to work to.
Time123 (7cca75) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:17 amSeems to me like he’s been consistent about what he wants; lots of mask usage.
Time123 (7cca75) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:20 amWhat’s been changing is his plan on how to achieve what he wants.
I think the fact that he’s been changing that plan because he recognizes limits to the power of the president is a good thing.
Cdc employees donate 90% democrat the y were focused on more worthy issues like obesity and gun control
Bolivar di griz (d4a914) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:21 am@23, His ppl have been running the CDC for 3 years. At this point, that’s on him.
Time123 (7cca75) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:30 amIf anyone paved the way for a national mask mandate, it was Trump with his national eviction ban.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:39 amI implore all of ya’ll to read this, that include citations of scientific studies.
https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy
Please take the time to review.
whembly (c30c83) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:40 ampart of the same overreach, which you’re fine with, the way the leading medical journals have colluded with the cdc, to proscribe promising treatment, only authorizing the most expensive one is indeed criminal
bolivar de gris (7404b5) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:44 am“Cause if you could take care, if you were a quartermaster, you can sure in hell take care runnin’ a, you know, a department store uh, thing, you know, where, in the second floor of the ladies department or whatever, you know what I mean?” – Joe Biden
harkin (820d1b) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:47 am_
And here’s the updated commentary of the previous article. I wish sites would do this more often…
https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/still-no-conclusive-evidence-justifying-mandatory-masks
(I removed the enbedded links as I didn’t want to be nuked by wordpress)
Whew lads.
whembly (c30c83) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:56 amthe boston fed study led to the subprime crisis with detours, the hockey stick, to banning the lightbulb and sinecures like solyndra, of course warren’s research led to the tarp and the stimulus and obamacare in part, any bogus piece of research serves a purpose which suppresses liberty,
bolivar de gris (7404b5) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:08 amThe question is whether I have the legal authority as president to sign an executive order.
A question Democrats only ask when campaigning.
beer ‘n pretzels (9915a8) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:11 amthey move the overton window, and there’s no telling where you’ll end up, and churches found out their freedom is conditional, again franklin said words to that effect, so did lord acton,
bolivar de gris (7404b5) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:15 amTime123 (7cca75) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:17 am
So, basically you are making a personal decision that impacts you.
As POTUS he would use the police power of the federal government, or convince the states to use their police power, to compel people to wear masks.
You don’t see any issues with a vague plan to do something by EO that would apply to everyone because you like to loosely plan your site-seeing trips?
frosty (f27e97) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:16 am……
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:16 amMe! Me!
Source
Maybe Mossad will get mad enough to…
urbanleftbehind (35ca35) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:21 amPure stupidity:
Israel quarantines travelers from countries they determined to be “Red Zones.” The US is one of those countries:
Idiots.
BuDuh (262f80) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:40 amand israel has been in lockdown, without much results, even well intentioned officials fall afoul,
bolivar de gris (7404b5) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:45 amWould you want this old man driving a school bus w/your kid in it?
Would you want this old man conducting brain surgery on you?
Would you want this old man piloting the 767 you’re flying in?
Would you want this old man to hug your daughter?
Would you want this old man ordering you a Big Mac at Burger King?
Nah.
Play it safe: entrust America’s thermonuclear weapons codes to him instead.
“Hold the pickle; hold the lettuce; North Koreans don’t upset us…”
DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:58 amYou’re pushing the analogy way too far. I was illustrating how a vague plan could be bound by broader strategy.
But I think We will mandate masks to stop the spread of disease in limited circumstances and work with state leaders on the implementation because we’re constrained by limits on presidential power is a much more limited government approach then Trump’s eviction ban. Which is nation wide and only tenuously related to stopping the spread of disease.
So it looks like in this case Biden is a more limited government choice then Trump.
I also like the fact that they didn’t just point at the eviction moratorium and as justification for a mask mandate.
Time123 (f5cf77) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:59 amTrump’s CDC issued a nationwide ban on evictions. The stated reason was to stop the spread of disease. I think that’s a pretext, but we can just take it at face value.
What are your thoughts on that? Is it legal? Is it justified? Is the lack of push back by GOP leaders acceptable?
If it’s legal I think the law is unconstitutional. I think the lack of push back by GOP leadership is clear evidence that the GOP will not act to limit federal powers.
Time123 (f5cf77) — 9/17/2020 @ 10:03 amThe USPS had a plan to send 5 reusable facemarks to every household in early April. Even had a press release ready.
The White House blocked the plan.
“There was concern…that households receiving masks might create concern or panic.”
Time123 (f5cf77) — 9/17/2020 @ 10:06 am@41. ‘concern or panic’…
America ain’t a nation of Einsteins; there are bleach-tipplers who’d exclaim,’Ooooo, look– free coffee filters, Edna.”
DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/17/2020 @ 10:13 amWhat are your thoughts on that?
I don’t like it, but I like it better that it’s temporary. And, it’s a measure taken as last resort, by an administration that would want to avoid it if it could.
Democrats issue EOs for things they’ve always wanted to do, but couldn’t due to not having the votes. And, they are often not intended to be temporary.
beer ‘n pretzels (a90b94) — 9/17/2020 @ 10:17 amhttps://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/business/eviction-moratorium-renters-landlords.html
Sammy Finkelman (bec8ba) — 9/17/2020 @ 10:17 am@44, they should. This is just more big government republican over reach.
Time123 (f5cf77) — 9/17/2020 @ 10:24 am@31 apparently in the case of Trump, republicans don’t even bother to ask the question, the order just gets issued.
Nic (896fdf) — 9/17/2020 @ 10:25 amTime123 (f5cf77) — 9/17/2020 @ 10:03 am
Don’t like it. Don’t think it’s constitutional. This a vague question but not sure if it’s morally justified. No not acceptable. In other words, I’m not lining up to justify the eviction mandate.
frosty (f27e97) — 9/17/2020 @ 10:26 am@43, I don’t think the parties are different here. Trump has been saying that if elected he will stop collection payroll taxes permanently. This would be an example of a republican goal that they haven’t been able to accomplish legislatively.
I’m not trolling when I say that I think Biden will result in a more limited government then Trump. We’re talking about differences in ‘bad’ to be sure. But it’s still a difference.
Time123 (f5cf77) — 9/17/2020 @ 10:26 am@47, I knew there was a reason I liked you. 😀
Time123 (f5cf77) — 9/17/2020 @ 10:27 amJust why?
And RCTs are considered necessary for medical devices, and masks are being used here as medical devices!
There is an inconsistency here you cannot get away from.
Now maybe the evidence is good enough to recommend masks, but if so, it is also good enough for convalescent fluid without any more RCTs, and for monoclonal antibodies,
And even for hydroxychloroquine with zinc.
Sammy Finkelman (bec8ba) — 9/17/2020 @ 10:31 amYounger Judges Appear More Sympathetic to Executive Power
The Republicans may rue the day when the approved Trump’s judges without an understanding their views on executive authority:
A paper in the February 2020 Journal of Law & Economics by Tom Campbell and Nathaniel Wilcox, “Younger Federal District Court Judges Favor Presidential Power,” finds that federal judges tend to be more supportive of executive power claims when they are younger, and that this may be a consequence that younger federal judges are influenced by the prospect of “promotion,” i.e. potential nomination to a higher court.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/17/2020 @ 11:21 am@47
That’s where I’m at.
FWIW, there are lawsuits ongoing right now to stop this, or because court adjudications takes time, this case will block future POTUS from taking the same action.
whembly (c30c83) — 9/17/2020 @ 11:41 amOT: Outrage from the “disenfranchisement(!!)” crowd in 3, 2, 1…
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/sep/17/pennsylvania-supreme-court-block-green-party-ballo/
The Pennsylvania Supreme Court on Thursday rejected the Green Party ticket from the state’s presidential ballot, handing Democrats their second win this week in knocking out third-party competition for Joseph R. Biden in swing states.
The state’s high court ruled that Green Party presidential candidate Howie Hawkins and vice presidential candidate Angela Walker failed to submit filing papers in person as required and therefore forfeited their spot on the ballot.
Keep handing Trump ways to question the results.
beer ‘n pretzels (25b6ed) — 9/17/2020 @ 12:25 pmRancourt cherry-picked and misrepresented the studies on masks, and McGreevy is no better in his defense of Rancourt. There’s a long takedown here. It should be noted that Researchgate took down Rancourt’s piece for its poor quality. The guy is a climate-science-denying quack who is claiming that “coronavirus has been a huge fabrication”.
Paul Montagu (1fbb64) — 9/17/2020 @ 12:25 pmRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/17/2020 @ 11:21 am
This has always been an issue with both sides. Judges won’t save us from ourselves. We’ve got a congress, on both sides, that write ridiculous legislation that increases the power of the bureaucratic state and the executive branch is an out of control monster.
frosty (f27e97) — 9/17/2020 @ 12:25 pm53. beer ‘n pretzels (25b6ed) — 9/17/2020 @ 12:25 pm
He can’t really use that, because how can he argue that he lost votes relative to Biden because some candidate he’s not for, or sympathetic to, was not on the ballot and so maybe Biden didn’t lose a few votes?
In Wisconsin the Green Party also got kicked off the ballot. They had appealed, figuring they’d win because the Republicans had a majority on the Wisconsin Supreme Court but the most recent elected judge had promised to be impartial. They may have had a good case but delayed appealing because they couldn’t find any good law firm willing to volunteer to help.
Then a conservative law firm volunteered (the Green Party understands they are being paid by some group or person that supports Republicans) The Wisconsin Supreme Court said the appeal was just too late.
The Democratic Parry, as an institution, is in many cases trying to get rid of third parties. They used a backhand method to raise the qualifications in New York. It went from getting at least 50,000 votes in the Governor’s race to 130,000 votes (or 2% of all ballots cast whichever is higher) every two years both for Governor and for president. The method of changing the law that they used actually failed in court but then they put it through in the budget bill this year (now the Democrats have control of the New York State Senate. Only the New York Conservative Party is safe.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/15/nyregion/working-families-party-biden.html
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-working-families-party-new-york-ballot-sam-20200901-t7uaxnix5ngchnctmxgtj7wziu-story.html
Sammy Finkelman (0828cd) — 9/17/2020 @ 1:13 pm54. The takedown should not use argument from authrority and ad hominems. Those are logical fallacies,/
Although it is fair to use the ad hominem “he’s a liar” after citing two or three examples if he wants to be very brief.
But this person prefers argument from authority and wants to use incompetence rather than lying.
If Ran c=court is merely incompetent he might be right on on thing. His opponent wants people in general not to examine arguments and to treat h=he conventional wisdom as infallible – at least for the time being.
The fallacy (and the wrongness) here is like this:
Asymptomatic people are also probably non contagious. In fact the experts later said so.
Pre-symtomatic people might become contagious maybe even before developing noticeable symptoms. But that that window of time can last only about one or two days. There are very few people like that walking around.
BTW, people who have recovered are probably never contagious.
The only reason to have everyone wear a mask is in order to have a simple rule.
Sammy Finkelman (be6791) — 9/17/2020 @ 1:38 pmNewly revealed USPS documents show an agency struggling to manage Trump, Amazon and the pandemic
…….
The records also offer fresh detail about the Postal Service’s precarious position in the White House’s early pandemic response. At one point in April, USPS leaders drafted a news release announcing plans to distribute 650 million masks nationwide, enough to offer five face coverings to every American household. The document, which includes quotations from top USPS officials and other specifics, was never sent. But it suggests that the government’s initial interest in tapping the Postal Service as part of its campaign to combat the coronavirus may have been far more advanced than initially reported this spring.
……
Some top administration officials even hoped to tap the mail service’s vast network — and its unrivaled ability to reach every U.S. Zip code — to help Americans obtain personal protective equipment. The idea originated out of the Department of Health and Human Services, which suggested a pack of five reusable masks be sent to every residential address in the country, with the first shipments going to the hardest-hit areas.
……
Before the news release was sent, however, the White House nixed the plan, according to senior administration officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to share internal deliberations….
“There was concern from some in the White House Domestic Policy Council and the office of the vice president that households receiving masks might create concern or panic,” one administration official said in response to the scrapped mask plan.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/17/2020 @ 1:42 pm…….
There’s that “P” word again.
That’s a gross misreading of what Johnson is saying, Sammy. Rancourt cherry-picked quotes from studies, ignoring that those studies actually did say that masks worked. That’s not the work of an honest man.
Paul Montagu (1fbb64) — 9/17/2020 @ 1:45 pmAfter balking at masks, pastor and church staff in North Idaho contract COVID-19
A Coeur d’Alene pastor who opened his large church in early May for in-person services that allowed and even encouraged unmasked congregants to gather has been recovering from COVID-19 at the Kootenai Health intensive care unit.
Paul Van Noy, the senior pastor at Candlelight Christian Fellowship, has spent the past two weeks in the ICU while his wife, Brenda Van Noy, recovered from her own bout with COVID-19 at home. Five other church staff have been infected, said Eric Reade, body ministry coordinator the church.
…….
The church closed its doors for two weeks and underwent deep cleaning before reopening for in-person services Sunday, Reade said.
“We didn’t want, obviously, to be spreading the virus,” he said.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/17/2020 @ 1:52 pm………
the bureau paid stephen hatfill 5 million to excuse, the previous little witchhunt, and nick kristof, apologized in person, considering all the people that mueller swept up in his net there should be a sizable payout, I don’t expect that general flynn would get all of his three million dollars he spent, but some portion, same for carter page, caputo, et al,
bolivar de gris (7404b5) — 9/17/2020 @ 2:08 pmBookmark this and play it every time you see an attack on Biden:
nk (1d9030) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:48 pmRussia trying to ‘denigrate’ Biden campaign, says FBI director (Reuters)
That’s Wray, the FBI Director that Trump appointed to replace Comey. I wonder if Barr will call him up and tell him to be more delicate.
nk (1d9030) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:51 pmStay pufts lawyer (credit) supervisor of enron taskforce (demerit)
Bolivar di griz (d4a914) — 9/17/2020 @ 7:57 pmour president donald who believes that if you like your virus you should be able to keep your virus is mr vladimirs special friend with benefits
and mr vladimir wont rest until failmerica is great again
Dave (1bb933) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:06 pmTiring dan (thats your real name, theres no dave working at irvine who also did cern
Bolivar di griz (d4a914) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:35 pmStay Puft is alright these days, hes the token morbidly obese friend of the no mask no lockdown crowd.
urbanleftbehind (399163) — 9/17/2020 @ 8:56 pm@62. ROFLMAOPIP
“No miracle is coming.”
DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:09 pmRussia trying to ‘denigrate’ Biden campaign, says FBI director (Reuters)
nk (1d9030) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:14 pmThe bureau seems focused on imaginary russians and not the 200 dead cops and twobillion dollars in damages, maybe they should get a clue im just saying.
Bolivar di griz (d4a914) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:19 pm“Russia is our opposition; China is our competitor.” – Joe Biden
And ice cream is fattening, eh, Joe.
“Hare. Hunter. Field.” – Rudolph Petersen [Montgomery Clift] ‘Judgment At Nuremberg’ 1961
DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:22 pm@69. Uncle Joe always gets Red when his Irish is up.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/17/2020 @ 9:30 pmLike to back that up with a little wager?
Dave (1bb933) — 9/17/2020 @ 11:08 pmNice to know you care enough to try to dox me though!
Dave (1bb933) — 9/17/2020 @ 11:09 pm“Nice” does not seem like the best for it somehow.
nk (1d9030) — 9/17/2020 @ 11:22 pmbest *word* for it
nk (1d9030) — 9/17/2020 @ 11:23 pm