Patterico's Pontifications

8/25/2020

Politicians and Journalists Leap to Conclusions About Shooting, Sparking Riots

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



There are riots in Wisconsin, with looting and burning, over the perceived injustice of this shooting:

In Kenosha:

By late Monday, a truck had been lit on fire, recreating a scene from Sunday’s protests that saw city trucks on fire. The danger appeared to build deeper into the night: Several structures, including a Wisconsin Department of Corrections building, were set on fire in Kenosha. A local furniture store was also completely engulfed in flames.

In Madison:

Madison Police confirmed Tuesday morning in a press release that they arrested six people during Monday night protests, including one person armed with a handgun. Overall, the release said, about 500 people attended the protests.

Arrests started after people started lighting fires in dumpsters, breaking windows and looting businesses, in addition to throwing rocks, bottles and other objects at officers throughout the night. The release confirmed the use of chemical agents on protesters again.

The guy had a warrant for his arrest:

Blake had an open warrant stemming from a domestic case in May, but police officials have not said if the officers were aware of the warrant when they responded to the call Sunday. Online records indicate a warrant was issued in the case in early July.

You know who knew he had a warrant? The suspect. By the way, the “domestic case” involvedsexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct in connection with domestic abuse.” Officers were apparently yelling “drop the knife” as he walked around the vehicle. They had tried to tase him without success.

David A. Graham at The Atlantic tells us that it is irrelevant whether the individual was going for a gun:

A great deal remains unclear about the incident. … Was Blake involved in the original disturbance? What was his connection to the women? What happened before the video starts? When and why was he tased? What did officers say to him? Why was he going to the car? Why did officers shoot? Was there a gun in the car?

None of this is fully known, but regardless of what preceded the shooting, and even if Blake ignored a police command to stop, it’s nearly impossible to imagine any way that his shooting was justified.

It’s easy for me to imagine a way the shooting was justified: if there was a gun in the car (one of the questions Graham says is unanswered), if the reason the individual was going to the car (another unanswered question) was to get the gun, and if the reason the cops shot (a third unanswered question) was because he was getting a gun, that would be a possible way that the shooting could be justified.

(I can imagine other scenarios, too, but stick with the obvious one for now.)

Luckily, the governor of Wisconsin, Tony Evers, is not jumping to conclusions or fanning the flames:

Tonight, Jacob Blake was shot in the back multiple times, in broad daylight, in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Kathy and I join his family, friends, and neighbors in hoping earnestly that he will not succumb to his injuries. While we do not have all of the details yet, what we know for certain is that he is not the first Black man or person to have been shot or injured or mercilessly killed at the hands of individuals in law enforcement in our state or our country.

Oh. Never mind. He is.

I don’t know whether this man was going for a gun. Neither do the rioters, or David A. Graham at The Atlantic, or Wisconsin governor Tony Evers.

The media entities and politicians who suggest, without evidence, that shootings like this re unjustified … well, they might as well be themselves lighting the matches that burn down Wisconsin businesses.

373 Responses to “Politicians and Journalists Leap to Conclusions About Shooting, Sparking Riots”

  1. It’s past time for leadership on the issue of police use of force.
    BLM has done a great job identifying the problem and bringing attention to it.

    Campaign Zero, and others have laid out tangible things that can be done to address both disparate impacts in use of force, and lack of accountability.

    It’s time for leaders at the appropriate level (such as governor and mayor) to respond by committing to what they will do, showing follow through on those commitments, and restoring public order.

    I accept that some will fail, but there’s not enough trying at the moment.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  2. Patterico Wrote

    The media entities and politicians who suggest, without evidence, that shootings like this re unjustified

    I think the burden of proof in much of the public mind has shifted from “Show that the police officer wasn’t justified in shooting this person.” to “Show that the police officer was justified shooting this person.” or at least “Show that a fair investigation of this shooting will be done.”

    I’m not sure how long it will stay that way. But I suspect that there are things that could be improved quickly with respect to transparency with the public.

    In none of the news articles I’ve read on this was it made clear what Kenosha was doing to investigate the incident. Which again get’s to lack of leadership at the local level.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  3. wash rinse repeat, have we not seen this for the last 10 years if not further, evers who is a appendage of the chicago combine the ones underscrutiny with madigan and burke, does his part,
    so law abiding citizens, have even less room in which to maneuver,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  4. Here we go again. Pro-criminal liberals and the media (sorry for the repetition) inciting riots based on a brief, blurry video with no context whatsoever.

    Edoc118 (2faa81)

  5. we know the script already, it’s like clockwork, except next to this recent wave of piracy, thousand currents has two billion dollars to propagandize this message,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  6. @1: Efforts like Campaign Zero run up against some very basic facts of life in a free society: people can vote with their feet, and do.

    Urban centers have become sh!tholes because the most productive elements of society have left. Those people generally prefer a strong police presence and strong police power more than those that remain. It’s not complicated.

    beer ‘n pretzels (316380)

  7. What’s baffling to me is that he kept walking to the vehicle despite guns trained on him, with officers telling him to stop. What was he thinking?
    That said, we shouldn’t jump to conclusions. George Floyd was obvious from Minute One (to me at least), but there may be more to this episode.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  8. If, and only if, he was reaching for a visible gun is it justified to shoot him 7 times in the back at point blank range. He was contained where he was. If he had turned with a knife there was time to shoot then. Similarly if he attempted to drive off with the kids amid some fear for their safety.

    He clearly is not following officer’s direction, and that doesn’t work well for him, but this is EXACTLY what the nightstick was designed for.

    And why didn’t the Taser work? Did they miss, or not charge it?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. I would think though, that had he been reaching for a gun, the gun would have been produced on the 11 o’clock news. The police have every reason to get out in front of this if they can.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. we can second guess all we want, while kenosha goes up in flames, susan rosenberg has adapted the foco urban guerilla strategy, with modern touches to the american polity,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  11. The longer it takes for the police to field a story, the less likely people are going to believe this was justified.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  12. there is a structure to agitation, propaganda, flooding the zone, from benghazi to the russia hoax, why are you still surprised,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  13. https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2018/05/22/demographic-and-economic-trends-in-urban-suburban-and-rural-communities/

    @1: Efforts like Campaign Zero run up against some very basic facts of life in a free society: people can vote with their feet, and do.

    Urban centers have become sh!tholes because the most productive elements of society have left. Those people generally prefer a strong police presence and strong police power more than those that remain. It’s not complicated.

    beer ‘n pretzels (316380) — 8/25/2020 @ 9:46 am

    Your assertion that people are leaving urban centers appears to be inaccurate

    Following decades of rising population and affluence compared with the central cities, the luster of the nation’s large suburbs has diminished since 2000. Though the suburban population continues to increase at a relatively healthy clip, a range of indicators show that large suburban counties are lagging the gains of their urban core counterparts. Compared with 2000, suburban populations are now less engaged in the labor market, experiencing declining household incomes and seeing housing stock value that has not kept pace with that of the central cities.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  14. Yes, and as the other side stands mute, the propagandists are unchecked.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  15. who will carry it, the major media is all in the rioters pocket, social media is working diligently to squash any opposite news,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  16. Kevin you’re making a lot of sense here.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  17. When one police officer yells out “Gun!” or “Knife!” then all the law enforcement officers will treat the person as armed. Blake was running to a car with his children, but no LEO is going to treat him differently even had they known these were his children. (Plenty of parents have endangered or hurt their own children when running from police.) My guess is they shot a man they thought was armed to keep him from getting to the children in the car.

    DRJ (aede82)

  18. the beta test was the sanford matter, ben crump was the ring leader back then, he was backed up with the justice department community resources board, and the usual media mouthpieces, alvarez, robles, (who used her gig to get an advance to the times) coates, lee, and a host of others, abc and nbc were supporting players, two years later, they went bigger at ferguson, setting half the town ablaze, before the true tape was leaked, it served as a complaint against the surplus military vehicles, then came baltimore, at each moment obama poured the gasoline, and then brought the matches, by 2016, they had escalated to targeted assasinations in baton rouge and dallas,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  19. If there was no knife, that complicates this for the police until they can determine why one officer thought there was a knife.

    DRJ (aede82)

  20. Time123, I don’t know where you live, and I don’t need to know, but I’m guessing it’s a nice neighborhood where the police are respected and largely supported, and crime is low. But, do let me know if you sought out the opposite.

    Maybe you understand my point now.

    beer ‘n pretzels (316380)

  21. One consequence of cases like this is officers will start second-guessing other officers who say they saw a weapon. That sounds ok if you want to be 100% certain of facts before acting, but the nature of police work doesn’t always let you have that certainty.

    DRJ (aede82)

  22. @20, this is what i assumed you meant by urban center

    urban center – a large and densely populated urban area; may include several independent administrative districts.

    If you mean something else we’re talking past each other.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  23. In any community, I think the police should try to stop an armed man from leaving in a car with children until they have an understanding of what happened in that earlier altercation. It sounds like Blake was trying to stop a fight but we don’t know that even now, and the police certainly didn’t know it then.

    DRJ (aede82)

  24. @23, agreed. I’d like to know more of what happened. It’s very possible that the officer that fired heard “He’s got a knife” and was justified in pulling the trigger. It’s also possible that police did a bad job taking control of the situation and failed to deescalate. More information is needed, but i haven’t seen a timeline on when that will be available.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  25. And there are suggestions Blake had resisted questioning or detention, probably because he knew he had an outstanding warrant. That provides an additional reason not to let him get in a car with children and leave.

    DRJ (aede82)

  26. Maybe they were de-escalating by trying to question him but he resisted and tried to leave. Then there are only two options – use your weapons or let him leave with the children (and hope he doesn’t use them as hostages if you follow or try to apprehend him later).

    DRJ (aede82)

  27. With the current climate where officers are summarily fired and/or charged with crimes, I suspect the police unions are telling the officers not to talk to anyone about what happened. That can make it hard for the police to be forthcoming about what happened and whether any weapons were seen or found.

    DRJ (aede82)

  28. There are many possibilities. Maybe he had no knife or weapon. Maybe there was someone with a knife who he disarmed during the altercation. Maybe he had a knife and the police found it, but they are testing it to see if his fingerprints are on it. Or maybe he had a knife and a witness took it during the incident. There is a lot of investigating to do and it takes time in a neighborhood that probably isn’t helpful.

    DRJ (aede82)

  29. DRJ, I want to be clear. I’m not accusing these officers of acting improperly. Your hypothetical is reasonable. I agree that we don’t know enough to say what happened.

    I am asserting that this situation would benefit from city officials making clear that they are responsible for the investigation what the process is, and that it will be followed with all due speed including commitments on a updates, again with transparency. Might be useless, but it’s worth a shot.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  30. Copper or no copper; bottom line: you don’t shoot a guy SEVEN TIMES in the back.

    It’s enough to even to piss off Cagney:

    “Cody still ain’t gonna like to hear that she got it in the back.” – Big Ed Somers [Steve Cochran] ‘White Heat’ 1949

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  31. I would think though, that had he been reaching for a gun, the gun would have been produced on the 11 o’clock news. The police have every reason to get out in front of this if they can.

    It matters a great deal more if the police had reason to believe that a weapon might be present than it does whether or not the weapon actually materializes. In this case we have a suspect who disregarded police orders to stay put, went into a car, and for one brief moment put his hands in a place where the officer could no longer see them. I don’t like watching a police officer fire seven times into a man with his back turned, but given the circumstances I have a hard time convincing myself that the officer had no justification to act as he did.

    This FTP (f*** the police) attitude is quite literally causing black men to be killed. In their anger and frustration, men like Blake appear to be determining that they have every right not just to ignore police instructions, but to actively do the opposite of what the police officer demands. That is so phenomenally reckless and stupid that at a certain point the BLM crowd needs to consider how their irresponsible messaging is contributing to this problem.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  32. Kevin’s questions are directly on point. I don’t see how the cops would have known that there was a gun in the vehicle without a prior search or without the gun sitting on the dashboard. I do acknowledge that the cops could have had concern for the individuals in the vehicle but did this really require the selected deadly force….before even fully grasping the situation? There should’ve been an attempt to restrain Blake. Yes, Blake needs to follow the lawful commands…but people do stupid things in high-stress situations….and it’s why they need to be subdued. At some point….it starts to look like an execution. In the end, this will likely only make policing harder.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  33. Hypothetical:

    They won’t shoot me, not with all the stuff that’s been going on.

    bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

    my bad…..

    Brion Mitchell (18e8bb)

  34. I am certain to get blocked from posting if I quote the ignorant statements on what the cops should have done and respond to the posters with what I think about them personally after reading the crazy suggestions.

    Maybe this will wise you people up:

    Activist critical of police undergoes use of force scenarios

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g

    21-Foot Principle Clarified by Dennis Tueller and Ken Wallentine

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dEjxg1m3ORU

    Or go on a ride along.

    Meanwhile, on the same day the Kenosha cops should have been delicate little flowers, this happened:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wusa9.com/amp/article/news/local/maryland/maryland-police-officers-shot-prince-georges-county-police/65-bdf36855-b00b-46e5-a2a0-cb89e5407aa2

    For some crazy reason that isn’t a national headline.

    BuDuh (4af69f)

  35. An RNC Speaker Said Cops Would Be ‘Smart’ to Racially Profile Her Own Son

    One of the Republican National Convention’s top speakers said in a recent video that it would be “smart” for a police officer to racially profile her biracial son, because “statistically, my brown son is more likely to commit a violent offense over my white sons.”

    “I recognize that I’m gonna have to have a different conversation with Jude than I do with my brown-haired little Irish, very, very pale-skinned, white sons, as they grow up,” Abby Johnson, a prominent anti-abortion activist, said in a 15-plus-minutes video posted to YouTube in late June, after weeks of nationwide protests against the police killing of George Floyd.
    …….
    But the fact that the police could one day view her sons differently, simply due to the color of their skin, doesn’t make Johnson mad, she said. Instead, it makes sense to her.

    “Statistically, I look at our prison population and I see that there is a disproportionately high number of African-American males in our prison population for crimes, particularly for violent crimes. So statistically, when a police officer sees a brown man like my Jude walking down the road — as opposed to my white nerdy kids, my white nerdy men walking down the road — because of the statistics that he knows in his head, that these police officers know in their head, they’re going to know that statistically my brown son is more likely to commit a violent offense over my white sons.”

    “So the fact that in his head, he would be more careful around my brown son than my white son, that doesn’t actually make me angry. That makes that police officer smart, because of statistics.”

    Johnson, who is set to address the RNC on Tuesday, is perhaps the highest-profile anti-abortion activist to speak at the convention this year.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  36. Blake had a history of carrying guns and resisting arrest. But you won’t hear about it on CNN.

    Racine County News

    For this with no actual knowledge of the profession of violence: it does not matter whether Blake actually had a gun. It does matter a whole lot whether officers reasonably believed he did. Start with Graham v. Conner.

    Edoc118 (e0a055)

  37. While we do not have all of the details yet, what we know for certain is that he is not the first Black man or person to have been shot or injured or mercilessly killed at the hands of individuals in law enforcement in our state or our country.

    That a sitting governor made such a dangerous and inflammatory statement while at the same time admits that he doesn’t have the specific details of what happened demonstrates to law enforcement that they will be judged and condemned even before the details are made known, and even before a thorough investigation has been completed. It is disgraceful that the governor is stoking the flames of hate instead of trying to unify his city, and encourage people to wait until all the facts are known. Evers has essentially given tacit approval for rioting. Because, as we’ve seen and been told, there is no reasonable middle ground.

    Dana (292df6)

  38. Reports of homeowners and businessmen in Wisconsin firing warning shots to protect themselves and their property from the arsonists and rioters.

    This will only get more ugly before it settles down.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  39. Looks like he did have a knife and he’s literally walking away from a cop who’s shouting orders:
    https://mobile.twitter.com/aubrey_huff/status/1298265998655516673

    whembly (c30c83)

  40. Anti-Riot Act Partly Upheld, Partly Struck Down

    Yesterday’s Fourth Circuit decision in U.S. v. Miselis, written by Judge Robert King and joined by Judges Albert Diaz and Allison Jones Rushing considered a facial First Amendment challenge to the Anti-Riot Act….
    …..
    [A.] The “incite” prohibition…..constitutionally applies when people travel or communicate with the intent to engage in constitutionally unprotected incitement, defined by Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969) to mean advocacy intended to and likely to promote an imminent riot. This covers things such as traveling to engage in actual incitement (e.g., going to some place with the plan to egg on a violent crowd), whether the incitement takes place or the plan is foiled before such incitement (in which case the behavior is constitutionally unprotected attempted incitement). The “instigating” provision is likewise valid, as a synonym for inciting.

    [B.] The “organize” prohibition…..is constitutional because it involves not just abstract advocacy but concrete orchestrating of criminal rioting. The best way of understanding this ruling, I think, is by analogy to U.S. v. Williams (2008), which held that specific solicitation of crime (as opposed to abstract advocacy) is constitutionally unprotected as speech integral to the underlying criminal conduct.

    [C.] The “aid or abet” prohibition….is constitutional because it likewise involves not just abstract advocacy but concrete assistance (even if the assistance comes through speech) to criminal rioters. Here too U.S. v. Williams (2008) would be a good analogy. (The “commit any act of violence” provision wasn’t challenged, but that’s clearly constitutional).

    But the court held other parts of the statute were unconstitutional:

    [i.] The “promote” and “encourage” prohibition…..and the “urging” provision are unconstitutional because they can extend to abstract advocacy of crime.

    [ii.] Likewise, the “not involving advocacy of any act or acts of violence or assertion of the rightness of, or the right to commit, any such act or acts” provision suggests that advocacy of violence and assertion of the rightness of violence are prohibited, and that too is unconstitutional.

    [iii.] The court also held that the words “promote,” “encourage,” “urging or,” and “not involving advocacy of any act or acts of violence or assertion of the rightness of, or the right to commit, any such act or acts” should therefore be in effect deleted from the statute—something courts often do, under the name of “severing” unconstitutional provisions—and the remainder of the statute would be upheld.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  41. One consequence of cases like this is officers will start second-guessing other officers who say they saw a weapon.

    One consequence of cases like this is officers will start second-guessing CERTAIN other officers who say they saw a weapon. And perhaps it will lead to police union pressure to dump the bad eggs so that they don’t drag others down with them.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  42. Possible explanation:

    Blake is told to assume the position. Instead, he pulls a knife and turns away from them. They don’t shoot as no one is directly threatened, but they also don’t dogpile him due to the knife. Instead they keep him corralled with guns drawn, as he runs to the SUV.

    Here, he repeatedly ignores commands, and tries to enter the SUV with the kids (and with the knife), they grab hold of him to restrain him and tell him they will shoot if he gets in the car. He shakes them off and gets in the car. With the kids and the knife.

    Now they have an irrational suspect with a knife and see children in danger. Again, a Taser would be a better choice, but perhaps it was broken/discharged/elsewhere. Also better would be a billy club to the head, followed by dragging him out. But the officer shoots, as she said she should. & times, which seems a bit much, but that may be the training.

    It still seems like Keystone Kops with guns.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  43. Of course, this presumes a knife.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. Kevin you’re making a lot of sense here.

    Sorry to bring down the blog like that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  45. A “billy club to the head” would be considered a use of deadly force.

    Edoc118 (e0a055)

  46. who will carry it, the major media is all in the rioters pocket, social media is working diligently to squash any opposite news,

    Believe it or not, most mainstream organizations don’t want to piss off the police in their city. Bad Karma, for much the same reasons cops don’t piss off trauma surgeons.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  47. A “billy club to the head” would be considered a use of deadly force.

    Not quite in the same league as emptying your Glock in their back.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  48. What would be even better would be Bad Egg cop assassins just shooting suspects from the window of their cruisers and not stopping at all and creating so much controversy. I am trying to figure out why the Bad Egg didn’t blast the suspect much earlier. Since he was willing to lie about seeing a weapon, he could have saved time and shot while at the curb or during the short chase around the car or when the door opened. Maybe he is a Clever Bad Egg and wanted to fake giving the suspect multiple opportunities to comply. Yeah. That makes sense.

    The police should double their force with expendable unarmed weapons checkers and send an officer with no gun in first while the armed partner reads the “Don’t be a Bad Egg” training manual from a safe for the suspect distance. Once the unarmed officer is stabbed, the armed officer can quickly scour blog entries to help with his split second decision.

    BuDuh (4af69f)

  49. Not quite in the same league as emptying your Glock in their back

    Legally and by policy, it’s exactly the same.

    Edoc118 (e0a055)

  50. @49, Bad summary of what the people who say this is a problem are talking about.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  51. you shut down practically all commerce, you release every criminal you can find, you confine the law abiding to their homes with these ridiculous rules, what do you think is going to happen?

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  52. On the more philosophical end of things I think for society it partly come down to whether or not we take what we say we believe seriously. Not just the right to self defense, but also “innocent until proven guilty” and “served their time”. If we do take those seriously, then we can’t use the idea that someone had a criminal past or has been charged with a crime as justification for shooting them. A person charged with the crime is still theoretically an innocent civilian. A person who has served their time has theoretically returned to being an innocent civilian. A person who has a gun may be perfectly well licensed to have it as an innocent civilian.

    Obviously on a practical basis this is naive and not necessarily workable, but it should at least be a considered as part of the discussion on how to handle these cases where there isn’t necessarily a clear threat of danger and options and/or strategies for dealing with possible criminals in those cases are unclear, because you can’t go around shooting innocent civilians, even ones who are only theoretically or nominally innocent.

    Nic (896fdf)

  53. Warning, this video may encourage Bad Eggs to be cautious when a suspect resists arrest and runs to his vehicle:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YQLOmfx8X_E

    YouTube should flag it.

    BuDuh (4af69f)

  54. Time, you could not find the info on the investigation and only trusted media accounts. You are a horrible judge of good or bad summaries.

    BuDuh (4af69f)

  55. then you make examples of the mccloskeys, so no one even attempts to defend themselves, that is what happens when you have prosecutors who are working for the criminals, a literal fifth column, and the dhs has its head so far up its ass, pardon my french, they put out the garbage about the boogaloo, as a serious analytical product,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  56. @56, You missed the many many times I said we needed to know more about what’s happening. How’d that happen? If Kenosha has released some statement intended to lay out their plans on this by all means link it. All I saw was boilerplate.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  57. I absolutely will not link it, Time. You need to improve your search skills before you run your mouth. Go find it.

    BuDuh (4af69f)

  58. It’s professionally worded boiler plate.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  59. “I absolutely will not link it, Time. You need to improve your search skills before you run your mouth. Go find it.”

    If you make an assertion, it’s on you to back it up.

    Davethulhu (0bbb0a)

  60. Keep digging if you actually care, which I don’t think you do. You are more of a concern type of commenter.

    For my next search I am going to ask the internet why so many people think officer involved shootings should have their investigations wrapped up in under 10 minutes. It is either a sloppy mentality that was formed by hour long cop fiction TV shows or some brain draining effect from watching too much instant replay.

    Truthfully I won’t be looking up anything to try and explain this behavior. It is asinine. Either you can wait for something more conclusive as Patterico is doing with his excellent post(which I wonder how many people actually read for content) that will surely expand as real details emerge, or you can go with the checkout stand tabloid version. All the talk of tribes around here has me thinking that these two approaches to the details of the shooting are the ultimate tribe groups that all the rest stem from. Ultimately there is no fixing this riff.

    BuDuh (4af69f)

  61. This is what I found. It’s a press release so i’m putting the whole thing here.

    It’s OK.
    It’s not great. No real person that people can decide to trust or not is putting their credibility on the line. There aren’t any dates that reasonable people can look as commitments.

    Race riots about excessive use of force by the police have been happening for months. This response is OK management. But it’s terrible leadership and fully in line with the crap job the governor did with his statement. It was full of passion but weak on details and sold out the process in it’s desire to show concern for the problem.

    KENOSHA, Wis. – The Wisconsin Department of Justice (DOJ) Division of Criminal Investigation (DCI) is investigating an officer involved shooting (OIS) in Kenosha, Wis. that occurred on the evening of Sunday, August 23, 2020.

    The shooting occurred when Kenosha police officers responded to a reported domestic incident in the 2800 block of 40th Street.

    Law enforcement immediately provided medical aid to the person who was shot. Flight for Life transported the person to Froedtert Hospital in Milwaukee. The person is in serious condition.

    DCI is leading this investigation and is assisted by Wisconsin State Patrol and Kenosha County Sheriff’s Office. All involved law enforcement are fully cooperating with DCI during this investigation. The involved officers have been placed on administrative leave.

    DCI is continuing to review evidence and determine the facts of this incident and will turn over investigative reports to a prosecutor following a complete and thorough investigation.

    If members of the public have any further information regarding this incident, please contact law enforcement.

    When DCI is the lead investigating agency of a shooting involving a law enforcement officer, DCI aims to provide a report of the incident to the prosecutor within 30 days. The prosecutor then reviews the report and makes a determination about what charges, if any, are appropriate. If the prosecutor determines there is no basis for prosecution of the law enforcement officer, DCI will thereafter make the report available to the public.

    There has been speculation on social media about the identities of those involved in this incident. The public is advised to await identifying information from an official source.

    No additional details are currently available.

    Please direct all media inquiries regarding this incident to DOJ.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  62. how hard is it to tell the public a gun was found
    or not found

    mg (8cbc69)

  63. If you make an assertion, it’s on you to back it up

    Exactly true. Time said Kenosha didn’t make it clear what they were doing to investigate. It is on him to back that up. Thanks for the assist, Dave.

    BuDuh (4af69f)

  64. I spoke to soon! Good job, Time!

    BuDuh (4af69f)

  65. Time was correct, this is absolutely boilerplate.

    Davethulhu (0bbb0a)

  66. Doesn’t matter what color you are- you don’t shoot a guy in the back SEVEN TIMES at point blank range. Hell, even Oswald only used three- and missed w/one from 100 yards. From the medical reports on the damage the coppers did, the rest of this fella’s life– if he lives- is going to be a living hell– and an expensive burden on the taxpayers of Kenosha, WI., once the lawsuits are litigated.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  67. https://twitter.com/i/status/1298330729890242561
    Not the Blake video…

    But, seriously, watch this video.

    After fighting off 2 police officers after being tased, perp went back to his car for his gun and started to shoot.

    We don’t have all the facts on this Blake shooting and yes it looks concerning. But, the other thing to keep in mind what the police is facing in these kinds of stops.

    whembly (c30c83)

  68. how hard is it to tell the public a gun was found
    or not found

    It is extremely difficult to tell rioters that no gun was found and risk the safety of all the innocent people who live in future looting and burning zones. I can’t imagine how they would explain that an officer has literally a split second to decide what the threat is and how to mitigate it. Mitigation has to last until the threat stops. There is no other way around it. The idea that the cops needed to see the gun before they could react is just dumb. I have posted several videos that show why. Otherwise well informed commenters here don’t understand it so I can’t imagine how you would explain that the potential for a gun is a reasonable threat given the circumstances of the suspects behavior. The media has a different agenda and the dupes, willfully or not, will not even try to understand.

    BuDuh (a362d1)

  69. this is absolutely boilerplate.

    What specific details did you expect to see from the Wisconsin DoJ at the point that memo was written?

    BuDuh (a362d1)

  70. The National Guard could take out the rioting thugs in minutes, time to stop the ignorant behavior. A few perfectly placed rounds and everybody goes home.

    mg (8cbc69)

  71. Joe Biden is a progressive –
    He wants the cops to work at home…

    mg (8cbc69)

  72. What specific details did you expect to see from the Wisconsin DoJ at the point that memo was written?

    BuDuh (a362d1) — 8/25/2020 @ 1:58 pm

    I expected boilerplate.
    I wanted more.

    Name of the person leading the investigation.
    Statement showing that person understands why people are concerned a person was shot 7 times in the back and that the DOJ is making it a priority.
    Statement showing that even if the officer was found to have acted properly at the moment they pulled the trigger no one is happy with the outcome.
    Some details on the next steps as well as a date when a preliminary finding.
    Statement showing respect for the rights of the accused and a commitment to run a fair investigation.

    Just off the top of my head.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  73. The National Guard could take out the rioting thugs in minutes, time to stop the ignorant behavior. A few perfectly placed rounds and everybody goes home.

    mg (8cbc69) — 8/25/2020 @ 2:08 pm

    Doesn’t seem like a ‘muscular’ approach worked in Portland.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  74. @71 How does that match with the idea that people do have gun rights in this country? If it’s acceptable for police to shoot people on even the potential of a gun? Doesn’t that create defacto absolute gun control? Any random oilfield worker in Texas or farmer in Wyoming or grandma in New Jersey could be shot because they have potential to have a gun. Everyone in the US has potential to have a gun, including you.

    Nic (896fdf)

  75. Almost 50 North Texans Drank Bleach This Month, Poison Center Warns ‘Stop, It Won’t Cure COVID’

    Following 46 cases of bleach ingestions in the North Texas Poison Center region since the start of August, experts are again warning people that drinking the chemical won’t prevent COVID-19.

    The organization pointed to “misleading and inaccurate information circulating online about how to prevent the spread of COVID-19,” for an uptick in poisonings.

    The FDA has long warned that drinking chlorine dioxide products can lead to “severe vomiting, severe diarrhea, life-threatening low blood pressure caused by dehydration and acute liver failure.”
    ……
    Texans aren’t as bright as I thought.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  76. @78

    @71 How does that match with the idea that people do have gun rights in this country? If it’s acceptable for police to shoot people on even the potential of a gun? Doesn’t that create defacto absolute gun control? Any random oilfield worker in Texas or farmer in Wyoming or grandma in New Jersey could be shot because they have potential to have a gun. Everyone in the US has potential to have a gun, including you.

    Nic (896fdf) — 8/25/2020 @ 2:30 pm

    We don’t know all the facts.

    What we do know is that Blake refused several lawful orders from the police. I’m of the belief that he was trying to “suicide by cop” as we now know he had several outstanding warrants.

    whembly (c30c83)

  77. In other words, you really aren’t concerned with actual facts about the incident at this point, Time. Just happy talk to do what? Stop the rioters?

    Is there a statement from the officials that would have prevented this?:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/129807519205763072

    BuDuh (2d52e9)

  78. If it’s acceptable for police to shoot people on even the potential of a gun?

    I’m pretty sure you didn’t read what I described. You might take a peek at either Whembly’s 1:53 or my 12:45; they are of the same incident.

    BuDuh (2d52e9)

  79. What we learned from Night 1 of the Trump Show

    ……

    During a pre-taped roundtable conversation in which Trump sat with six Americans who were formerly held hostage overseas, only to be freed and brought home by his administration, the president sat listening to an American pastor who had been held in Turkey and faced a 28-year prison term.

    After the pastor, Andrew Brunson, shared his gratitude for being brought home, Trump told him, “I have to say, that to me, President Erdogan was very good.”

    That would be Recep Tayyip Erdoğan — the brutal Turkish dictator whose government had imprisoned Brunson in the first place.

    Trump went on, “I know that they had you scheduled for a long time, and you were a very innocent person. And he ultimately, after we had a few conversations, he agreed, so we appreciate that. And we appreciate the people of Turkey. And you still appreciate the people of Turkey, I understand, right?”

    Brunson, who had stared straight forward, motionless, during Trump’s commentary, replied, “We love the Turkish people.”
    ……..

    Trump’s State Department today:

    President Erdogan’s Meeting With Hamas Leadership

    The United States strongly objects to Turkish President Erdogan hosting two Hamas leaders in Istanbul on August 22. Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by the U.S. and EU and both officials hosted by President Erdogan are Specially Designated Global Terrorists. The U.S. Rewards for Justice Program is seeking information about one of the individuals for his involvement in multiple terrorist attacks, hijackings, and kidnappings.

    President Erdogan’s continued outreach to this terrorist organization only serves to isolate Turkey from the international community, harms the interests of the Palestinian people, and undercuts global efforts to prevent terrorist attacks launched from Gaza. We continue to raise our concerns about the Turkish government’s relationship with Hamas at the highest levels. This is the second time President Erdogan has welcomed Hamas leadership to Turkey this year with the first meeting occurring February 1.

    >>>>>>>>>
    Someone is off-message.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  80. @80 We don’t know all the specifics in this particular situation, but if the reasoning is that “the potential for a gun is a reasonable threat” then that could be applied to any circumstances. Drive the wrong kind of car and get stopped for speeding down I80 in Omaha (I80 has a history of being big for transporting drugs) and suddenly it doesn’t matter that you are a college student driving your trash-college-student car from Denver to visit your g’ma in Des Moines, you are a scruffy young person in the wrong car driving from a weed state. Potential drug transportation, potential gun. You get shot and it’s fine. You could’ve had a gun.

    Nic (896fdf)

  81. Legally and by policy, it’s exactly the same.

    This is why many people don’t like lawyers.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. In other words, you really aren’t concerned with actual facts about the incident at this point, Time. Just happy talk to do what? Stop the rioters?

    What did I say in that comment, or any of the previous, that justifies saying I’m not concerned with the facts?
    What have I said in our previous conversations that makes you think that’s likely my POV?

    your link doesn’t work BTW.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  83. No additional details are currently available.

    While their city is in flames, they argue for bureaucratic process. Again, if there had been a solid reason for the shooting (e.g. “He reached into vehicle and picked up a Mac-10″) you make it damn clear to everyone as soon as possible.

    But they didn’t. Instead they circle the wagons and talk about process, which means to be their real concern is not the officer (going to be fired) but their lawsuit cross-section.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  84. @84

    @80 We don’t know all the specifics in this particular situation, but if the reasoning is that “the potential for a gun is a reasonable threat” then that could be applied to any circumstances. Drive the wrong kind of car and get stopped for speeding down I80 in Omaha (I80 has a history of being big for transporting drugs) and suddenly it doesn’t matter that you are a college student driving your trash-college-student car from Denver to visit your g’ma in Des Moines, you are a scruffy young person in the wrong car driving from a weed state. Potential drug transportation, potential gun. You get shot and it’s fine. You could’ve had a gun.

    Nic (896fdf) — 8/25/2020 @ 2:48 pm

    The mere fact that you have a gun is a meaningless distinction in this discuss.

    You’re leaving out a very important context: Blake was REFUSING lawful orders from the police. Blake was seen reaching into his car in DIRECT contravention of the police’s lawful orders to NOT do that.

    The moral of the story here is this: Ignore the police’s orders at your own peril.

    whembly (c30c83)

  85. if the reasoning is that “the potential for a gun is a reasonable threat” then that could be applied to any circumstances.

    Not if you actually read my comment.

    BuDuh (2d52e9)

  86. @80 Or, 2A protest in front Newsom’s house in California. Protestors are loud, hostile. Newsom comes out to talk to the protestors and one of them starts to make a hostile gesture. Police on protection detail shoot him. He was armed, thought he was dangerous, they say, even though his weapon never left his shoulder holster. He’s dead, it’s fine.

    Nic (896fdf)

  87. Mostly what I saw, Time, is that you would have preferred a boilerplate statement that included boilerplate platitudes. I don’t see how that rectifies your concerns in your earlier comments.

    Here is the link again:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1298075192057630724

    If it doesn’t work I apologize.

    BuDuh (2d52e9)

  88. “What we do know is that Blake refused several lawful orders from the police. ”

    Seems like there should be a few steps between “refused an order” and “shot in the back”.

    “I’m of the belief that he was trying to “suicide by cop” as we now know he had several outstanding warrants.”

    In front of his kids? Why not just charge them with the knife you claim he had.

    Davethulhu (0bbb0a)

  89. We don’t know all the specifics in this particular situation, but if the reasoning is that “the potential for a gun is a reasonable threat” then that could be applied to any circumstances.

    If you’re talking about apples, it would apply to other apples. Not oranges.

    A scruffy kid driving from Denver who doesn’t give anyone reason to stop him (e.g., speeding), or is stopped but follows officer instructions, sounds like an orange.

    beer ‘n pretzels (2bbe92)

  90. @88 If you can be acceptably killed for not following directions, even if your actions are not overtly dangerous, what you have is a police state.

    Nic (896fdf)

  91. Texans aren’t as bright as I thought.

    There are plenty of people out there with sub-80 IQs.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  92. even though his weapon never left his shoulder holster.

    You are saying that Newsom’s law enforcement contingent had direct line of sight of his holstered weapon and shot him?

    Your analogies are not on the same page yet you persist.

    BuDuh (2d52e9)

  93. Clearly, Mr. Blake did not watch and learn the lessons from Mr. Rock’s educational video.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  94. Just follow instructions and you won’t get shot

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka2nSFJ7z8o

    Davethulhu (0bbb0a)

  95. @93 Lets say he was a dramatic idiot and is blustering away and reaches for his keys and gets shot. OK under the potential gun reasoning, even if there was no gun and no drugs, just a suitcase full of clothes and backpack with a calculus text and a copy of Kant.

    Nic (896fdf)

  96. Nic & Whembly, In the case below dozens of protesters, some armed, ignored lawful order, phsyically assaulted the police, destroyed government property and the police are looking into if charges are warranted. I think this was probably the right call in the situation FWIW. But it’s not the principle you seem to be advocating.

    In Boise, the first day of Idaho’s special legislative session erupted into chaos before it began. Dozens of unmasked protesters, some of them armed, shoved their way past state troopers to pack the gallery overlooking the state’s House of Representatives.

    The clash was a manifestation of the anger and frustration from a vocal minority of far-right Idahoans that has been compounding over the last several months as the state has navigated its reopening amid the pandemic.

    To enforce social distancing, the gallery area above the House chamber was restricted with limited seating. But after the confrontation with state troopers, which resulted in the shattering of a glass door, Republican House Speaker Scott Bedke relented and allowed protesters to fill every seat.

    The response stands in stark contrast to 2014 when dozens of advocates pressuring lawmakers to pass LGBTQ protections were arrested for standing silently in a hallway, blocking access to the Idaho Senate chamber.

    On Monday, an Idaho State Police spokeswoman, Lynn Hightower, said she wasn’t aware of any pending charges against protesters. The following day she released a statement saying that “Idaho State Police personnel determined they could not have made arrests on the spot without elevating the potential for violence,” and that an investigation was ongoing into any criminal behavior “that may have occurred.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  97. That looks like something that happens 99%, if not 100%, of the tIme, Dave. Great reference!

    BuDuh (2d52e9)

  98. Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

    Liars and terrorists and burglars, oh my!

    All of this reeks of hypocrisy and corruption in the worst way. This “law and order” president, and all of his sycophantic followers, butt gerbils every one of them, are all leading this country into dissolution, corruption, anarchy, and all the hell that follows with it. Just as the French did in their supposed Revolution, which descended into tyranny and mass murder shortly after it began, once the guillotines started to fall.

    The American Revolution was unique, in that it at least looked forward to a better future, freedom and liberty for all. The French Revolution quickly descended into mass murder, prosecution and tyranny. That is precisely what “Year Zero,” meant. Kill them all, wipe out the slate, and start over. It resulted in horrendous tragedy.

    If this is the direction of the Republican party, under Trump and his minions, we all need to weep. Because none of it is going to work out well for any of us. This hypocrisy and corruption feeds on itself. And so it is.

    I, for one, will not be voting in any way to support this corrupt and bankrupt party. Every Republican nominee is dead to me. For as long as Trumpism rules the party. They all, every obtuse candidate, needs to be defeated in the most humiliating fashion.

    It is our responsibility as voters to do so. Trump and his accolades deserve what ever circle of hell Dante assigned them to. I look upon all of them with absolute designation.

    Vote how you will, that is your right. I, however, will not be voting for any tyrannist. And that includes Trump and all his supplicants.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  99. @96 I’m saying that they didn’t know for sure he was armed before, but it was a 2A protest and they assumed most protestors were. In the loud hostility, they saw him make a sudden movement and shot him. They really had no way to know for sure that he had a gun at all. They just saw the potential for one. Afterward they discover that he was armed, but his gun was secured in his holster.

    Nic (896fdf)

  100. under the potential gun reasoning,

    LOL

    BuDuh (2d52e9)

  101. BuDah, You missed the part where I wanted someone from the department to take ownership of situation and put their credibility on the line. You also missed the part where I linked to people who are proposing potential solutions.

    Basically I want WI to take this seriously and I don’t see much evidence that they do. I hope that they do. But I looked for evidence and didn’t find it.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  102. 103, all I am saying is that you could not have possibly read my comment for context.

    BuDuh (2d52e9)

  103. Context is everything. It’s not whether the police think you might have a gun, it’s what you’re doing in addition to it.

    How hard is it to follow police instructions? Seriously? I’m continually amazed at how stupidly people interact with the police. It’s like they suddenly revert to being three years old.

    I suspect it’s bad parenting. Jason Whitlock, a black sports journalist, made a noteworthy point on Adam Carolla’s podcast. He stated that the first police officers children should encounter are named Mom and Dad. If children do not learn discipline at home, then society at large, and the police in particular, end up parenting the child. When you have adults that throw tantrums in public, don’t expect good results.

    norcal (a5428a)

  104. BuDah & Nic, If I understand the law correctly the police are justified in using deadly force if they reasonable believe the victim was reaching for a weapon and intended to do harm. We don’t have facts to say if that was the case here yet. It likely was, but we don’t know that yet.

    In Nic’s hypothetical that would be the same test, did the security detail have a reasonable suspicion that the person in question was about to pull a gun and use it.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  105. <

    I wanted someone from the department to take ownership of situation and put their credibility on the line.

    Like I said, platitudes.

    You also missed the part where I linked to people who are proposing potential solutions.

    I see. So you must have hoped their statement would have included the problem that was to be solved. Either that or you have made up your mind without all the facts.

    BuDuh (2d52e9)

  106. @100 I am not arguing that it’s OK to shoot people on the potential of having a weapon. I am attempting to extrapolate out the argument that BuDuh made to other circumstances in which his reasoning might be applied.

    Nic (896fdf)

  107. “How hard is it to follow police instructions? Seriously? I’m continually amazed at how stupidly people interact with the police. It’s like they suddenly revert to being three years old.”

    It is sometimes very difficult, because multiple officers may be shouting conflicting orders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver

    Davethulhu (0bbb0a)

  108. I am attempting to extrapolate out the argument that BuDuh made to other circumstances in which his reasoning might be applied.

    No you aren’t. You are creating vague random analogies that don’t resemble anything close to the circumstances in Wisconsin or in the video at 12:45.

    BuDuh (2d52e9)

  109. @109, I’m going to take a break from you on this. It doesn’t seem like you understand what I’m saying and it’s annoying to have you repeatedly miss-characterize my position in direct contradiction of what I’ve said. It’s unfortunate because talking to you is usually entertaining and informative. Hope the rest of your day goes well.

    link worked fine the 2nd time btw.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  110. @106 I read it and I think if you apply your reasoning to other similar situations, it becomes clear that that reasoning when taken by itself creates a dangerous precedent in regard to potential officer involved shootings.

    @107 People are idiots. You can’t shoot all the idiots. It’s messy.

    Nic (896fdf)

  111. This is (redacted) terrorism, cities are being burned to the ground, go ahead and excuse this.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  112. My day is going great now that I figured out your motivation, Time. I don’t think you are the moderate you pretend to be in this comment section.

    Alas, I will take a break as well. Hopefully a Stupid Trump post will appear so everyone can get back to normal.

    BuDuh (2d52e9)

  113. Nic, norcal gets it. Maybe you can do a better job reading his comment.

    Chow.

    BuDuh (2d52e9)

  114. @112 I am asking you to consider more than this very specific incident, but how your reasoning process could, theoretically, be generalized out from it.

    Nic (896fdf)

  115. @110 Nic, That was poorly worded on my part. I addressed you since it looked relevant to you conversation with Budah.

    I think the root of the hypothetical is when is it ‘reasonable’ to use deadly force. I’m going to go for a run now. Have a good one.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  116. @119 “I think the root of the hypothetical is when is it ‘reasonable’ to use deadly force”

    Yes, exactly.

    Nic (896fdf)

  117. @119 You have a good one as well.

    Nic (896fdf)

  118. My day is going great now that I figured out your motivation, Time. I don’t think you are the moderate you pretend to be in this comment section.

    I present my views as accurately as I can articulate them.

    I’m not interested in talking about this particular incident anymore. But I do respect your opinion So I’m curious what you see my motivation as?

    Time123 (7cca75)

  119. @111 Daniel Shaver is horrendous example of police abuse. You’re right. The police were shouting different instructions, and he was trying to comply with them while begging for his life. Most people out there have never heard of Daniel Shaver, and there were no riots on his behalf that I am aware of. Is that because he was white?

    Yes, killings by police are not always a result of failure to follow police instructions.

    norcal (a5428a)

  120. there were no riots on his behalf that I am aware of. Is that because he was white?

    Partly, one of the reasons that there are protests after police use of force is that a lot of the black community doesn’t trust the “process” to deliver justice in a timely manner. I don’t think there is a similar constituency for white people.

    Could also be that not every outrageous act causes public outrage. If I could figure out what makes something go viral and take off I could be a social media gazzilionaire.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  121. @114 People are idiots. You can’t shoot all the idiots. It’s messy.

    Alas, all too often the idiot decides to act in a way where the police have reason to believe that serious bodily harm or death is imminent to the police or a civilian. And when this happens the police have a duty to shoot the idiot.

    norcal (a5428a)

  122. I’m done with all this armchair policing today. I suspect that attitudes on this forum would change if the people here were to be an actual police officer long enough to have a violent encounter or two.

    I am reminded of this quote by Theodore Roosevelt:

    It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

    emphasis mine

    norcal (a5428a)

  123. @126 I used to work at a type of half-way house for mentally ill people for a while. I’ve had enough violent encounters and deadly force was not even a possible consideration of an action. It’s one of the reasons I think it’s important to talk about the application of deadly force, because I do have experience in being in a violent situation but one where a violent response is not a possibility. Better training and guildlines for police is necessary, because if your only tool is a gun, every situation is a deadly one.

    Nic (896fdf)

  124. @94

    @88 If you can be acceptably killed for not following directions, even if your actions are not overtly dangerous, what you have is a police state.

    Nic (896fdf) — 8/25/2020 @ 3:07 pm

    No.

    The officers had no way of knowing if Blake’s actions were not overtly dangerous. He apparently was carrying a knife too.

    Doesn’t Blake have agency to his own actions? Doesn’t *he* bear any fault whatsoever here? At all?

    whembly (c30c83)

  125. RNC Speaker Boosts QAnon Conspiracy Theory About Jewish Plot to Enslave the World
    Hours before she was set to speak at the Republican National Convention on Tuesday night, Mary Ann Mendoza took to Twitter and urged her followers to investigate a supposed Jewish plot to enslave the world.

    “Do yourself a favor and read this thread,” Mendoza, who is a member of the Trump campaign’s advisory board, tweeted to her more than 40,000 followers early Tuesday morning.

    Mendoza, an “angel mom,” is scheduled to speak Tuesday about her son’s 2014 death at the hands of a drunk driver who was in the country illegally. Her tweet on Tuesday linked to a lengthy thread from a QAnon conspiracy theorist that laid out a fevered, anti-Semitic view of the world. In its telling, the Rothschilds—a famous Jewish banking family from Germany—created a plot to terrorize non-Jewish “goyim,” with purported details of their scheme that included plans to “make the goyim destroy each other” and “rob the goyim of their landed properties.”
    …….
    Mendoza’s tweet urging her followers to check out the anti-Semitic thread came on the eve of her Republican convention appearance. While the thread includes extensive anti-Semitism and references to QAnon, it also alleges that Hillary Clinton is a “Satanic High Priestess” and that Barack Obama’s Washington home smells like sulfur — a reference to the idea, popular with InfoWars host Alex Jones, that Obama somehow smells like sulfur because he’s connected to the devil and Hell.

    The Trump campaign and Mendoza didn’t respond to requests for comment.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  126. @128 As I mentioned above, I am attempting to extrapolate the reasoning used in this situation out into law enforcement in general.

    I don’t know enough about this particular situation to say if Blake should’ve been shot or not. I can, however, look at some of the reasoning used to justify his being shot and see what it might look like in other similar situations.

    My personal opinion is that we need to have a conversation around police response that goes beyond specific situation A or B or C into an actual philosophy for law enforcement and how that interacts with our other ideals as a country.

    Nic (896fdf)

  127. If, and only if, he was reaching for a visible gun is it justified to shoot him 7 times in the back at point blank range.

    Kevin M:

    I see multiple people here have posted the video that shows what happens when you wait to make sure that the guy resisting arrest, headed back to his car, and reaching into his car is actually going for a gun. But I will post it again anyway.

    You are expecting a level of superhuman ability to perceive and react that is unrealistic, and that will get cops shot and killed.

    The fellow in the video embedded in the post had a choice. He made a decision to go to his car and reach inside. I actually have a hard time believing people consider this to be obviously unjustified.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  128. Seems like there should be a few steps between “refused an order” and “shot in the back”.

    There were: the steps he took around his car so he could reach inside.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  129. I don’t know whether this man was going for a gun. Neither do the rioters, or David A. Graham at The Atlantic, or Wisconsin governor Tony Evers.

    and neither can the officers. When someone fights back this much from the cops, they assume the worst when things spiral out of control and the guy’s reaching into his car. This is what they mean by ‘blue lives matter’. Any policy that insists this shooting is bad with the limited information we have is one where cops will die on the job.

    One problem is that a lot of criminals are learning the wrong thing from this movement. Some think they need to take tactical advantage of the police hesitation to create another headline. Some think those cops are going to kill them and resort to escalating things that would have been fine if they’d just stopped and did what they were asked to do.

    If, and only if, he was reaching for a visible gun

    I don’t see how this works in the real world.

    Dustin (4e65ec)

  130. I advise everyone to listen closely to Dustin in this matter; I accord him high credibility, enough to allow him to speak for me.

    felipe (023cc9)

  131. SEVEN SHOTS, point blank- in the back– is the sort of behavior you’d expect from Capone, not cops.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  132. “There were: the steps he took around his car so he could reach inside.”

    The officer who shot him was within a yard of him while he was taking those steps.

    Davethulhu (0bbb0a)

  133. I am thinking that, and I am not directing this toward anyone here, that some late night ride alongs with police in high crime areas might be helpful for some of the people who are just certain of how things work.

    Me, I’m not so sure about anything.

    What I don’t like (and again, not directed toward anyone here) are people using this kind of thing for political gain.

    Simon Jester (da4900)

  134. I agree, Simon. I’m not sure of anything either. I’ll wait for the due diligence to be done.

    felipe (023cc9)

  135. Our lives are whack-a-mole these days, felipe. There is always some kind of bad actor trying to use something tragic to their own ends.

    I know one of the people working on convalescent sera. He is getting pummeled for “not enough double blind tests,” and he finally responded with “Did you do that with antibiotics?”

    Because that’s different.

    OMG.

    Simon Jester (da4900)

  136. The officer who shot him was within a yard of him while he was taking those steps.

    The cops in the video Patterico posted @131 were even closer.

    beer ‘n pretzels (8482e2)

  137. Sam faddis who has noticed this pattern overseas. Tells whats really going on, which shouldnt surprise at this late date.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  138. Wow! A cocaine addict who worked for Reagan!! How Kudlow can you go, Snowman?!!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  139. “The cops in the video Patterico posted @131 were even closer.”

    The videos are apples and oranges, barring some context not shown in the OP’s video.

    But, if the subject of OP’s video was violently resisting prior to filming starting, why are the cops acting like he’s just disobeying orders?

    Davethulhu (0bbb0a)

  140. Davethulhu, if the cops had shot Clary in the back as he was reaching inside the car, and you knew everything the cops knew at that moment and nothing more, what would be your judgment?

    beer ‘n pretzels (8482e2)

  141. 131:

    Yes, I saw that video. I don’t think it is on point (but maybe it is if the unknown activity in the current case is similar). In the situation in the video in 131, the officers had serious concerns about the suspect’s intentions and might have fired, or at least been prepared to fire, when he reached into the car. In the current case the actions prior are cloudy.

    I also believe that traditional come-along approaches, mostly non-lethal, have been deprecated to the point where it is “come along peacefully or get shot”. Yes, the Rodney King beating was terrible, but billy clubs don’t beat people, people do. Despite one commenters’ claim of equivalence, hitting someone upside the head in a situation like this is better than shooting them 7 times in the back.

    There are other videos on Youtube with similar outcomes. You’ve posted one here a while back where a seemingly harmless nutcase turns violent and kills officers. But there are thousands of similar situations where the officers subdue the suspect without gunfire. I don’t believe that a few cases justify lethal force in all cases. That’s a slippery slope that the public will not tolerate in the end.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  142. You are expecting a level of superhuman ability to perceive and react that is unrealistic, and that will get cops shot and killed.

    A serious question: Now many citizens shot and killed through false anticipation are acceptable for each officer’s life saved? It’s not “all of them.” Nor is it “all the assh0les.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  143. Also, Patterico, see #43 where is suggest a scenario that justifies the shooting where there is no inkling of a gun.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  144. “Davethulhu, if the cops had shot Clary in the back as he was reaching inside the car, and you knew everything the cops knew at that moment and nothing more, what would be your judgment?”

    I don’t think the police should shoot unless there’s a clear and present danger. Otherwise, you end up with cases like Tamir Rice and Breonna Taylor.

    Davethulhu (0bbb0a)

  145. Getting back to the topic though, the politicans and community “leaders” who fed the mob’s anger are despicable. It might have been passive-aggressive, but they were inciting to riot.

    And Trump gets a few more votes he didn’t have before.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  146. @127 I postponed my road trip until tomorrow, so now I can write more.

    I’m not sure that a halfway house for the mentally ill is an apt comparison. Was there a constant possibility that resident would pull a gun on you, or was the house a gun-free zone? Regardless, I’m guessing it was a more controlled environment than the police have out on the street. If there was a danger of you being killed, and you could not use deadly force to counter an imminent threat of such, then my hat is off to you for your bravery, and you should consider yourself lucky that you survived that job.

    If you want to put your life on the line like that, that’s one thing. However, I wouldn’t expect the police to risk their lives in such a manner.

    I love how people sit in the comfort of their air-conditioned homes and second-guess every action of a police officer in the heat of battle. That, together with all these riots, will cause reasonable people to avoid the police profession altogether, and for the current police to just stay in their cars. Why risk it, when there is a perpetual contingent in the gallery who doesn’t understand what it’s like to work in the trenches as a cop?

    When you add in the fact that people with means are voting with their feet, and leaving these high-crime areas, what remains are the more criminally prone, with less reasonable police to deal with them.

    norcal (a5428a)

  147. Can anyone watch the video on the following Twitter post and tell me why this is not the same thing as the Brown Shirts in the early 1930s?

    https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/status/1298344285079838720

    Now if the answer is no (which it should be), why should politicians who stoke this kind of behavior, or even refuse to condemn it, be given even a modicum of credibility.

    If Joe Biden ever grants a real interview (meaning not by a sycophant — Chris Wallace, answer your phone) then Question # 1 should be: Will you forthrightly and unequivocally condemn this behavior? Yes or No?

    Ditto Kamala Harris.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  148. Whoops, I meant, the answer is Yes. IOW, what is shown in the video is the same thing as the Brown Shirts.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  149. The biggest story of the year, bigger than the pandemic, is the scheme by liberals to make it OK to riot, loot and do wholesale destruction if you claim to be offended.

    This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better and the worst victims will be the urban poor.
    _

    harkin (cd4502)

  150. @151 Biden will never grant an interview with an aggressive journalist like Trump did on Axios. Never!

    And for those who say that Trump was just a target-rich environment, and Biden is not, I call b.s. There is plenty with which to grill Biden, but you wouldn’t know it from watching the MSM. Leftist bias in the media is a thing. Anybody who denies this has a tenuous relationship with reality.

    norcal (a5428a)

  151. “I love how people sit in the comfort of their air-conditioned homes and second-guess every action of a police officer in the heat of battle. That, together with all these riots, will cause reasonable people to avoid the police profession altogether, and for the current police to just stay in their cars. Why risk it, when there is a perpetual contingent in the gallery who doesn’t understand what it’s like to work in the trenches as a cop?”

    Without googling it (though I can’t stop you), what do you think was the #1 cause of police deaths in 2020?

    I’m also curious what other people think.

    Davethulhu (0bbb0a)

  152. No hitter by Lucas Giolito

    AJ_Liberty (5b2883)

  153. @155 I’m guessing heart attacks, car crashes, or coronavirus.

    norcal (a5428a)

  154. Seriously, Bored Lawyer? Your video is what you think is like the Brownshirts in the 1930s?

    The heat must have knocked out my “what if” and “but what” generators. Put me down as the lady jumping up and down and screaming hysterically on the left of the screen.

    nk (1d9030)

  155. @158

    I see Dana made a whole post about this, so I will leave it to the commentators there.

    The fact that you think it is ok for a crowd to enter a restaurant, demand everyone raise their fist in solidarity, and then crowd around and intimidate one lady that refuses to join the show, says more about how far gone you are, and how alien you are to America and its traditions, than about history.

    This is fascist, or if you will communist, tyranny. Pure and simple. Anyone who does not condemn it is condoning it. (Sound familiar?)

    We know where you stand.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  156. “I’m guessing heart attacks, car crashes, or coronavirus.”

    Correct, on the 3rd, and what I found surprising was that it’s not even close, going by this page here: https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020

    It shows deaths from a bunch of other causes. Considering that there are over 750,000 police in the US, I think that the danger they face from shooters is overstated.

    Davethulhu (0bbb0a)

  157. @160 Coronavirus is an anomaly this year, and maybe next year as well. Take that away, and gunfire is the #1 cause of death.

    norcal (a5428a)

  158. We know where you stand.

    And I can guess your BMI.

    nk (1d9030)

  159. I see where my comment 158 may not have conveyed what I wanted to say:

    Put me down as the lady jumping up and down and screaming hysterically on the left of the screen. In the video of the shooting. Posted by Patterico at the introduction of the main post. That video.

    nk (1d9030)

  160. “Coronavirus is an anomaly this year, and maybe next year as well. Take that away, and gunfire is the #1 cause of death.”

    You’re right, but it’s currently 3 times as much.

    Davethulhu (0bbb0a)

  161. @150 Not guns, and it was a more controlled environment than the street, but we did have knives on site. They were mostly locked up, but if someone was doing well, they could help out in the kitchen and there were a few times when one of them decided that they had a knife and a grievance against someone, so we had to remove the knife from them (I am perhaps downplaying things a bit). It was unlikely any of us would actually be killed, but I was injured more often than I would have preferred. Everyone in those jobs is injured more than they would prefer.

    “If you want to put your life on the line like that, that’s one thing. However, I wouldn’t expect the police to risk their lives in such a manner.”

    I would. That’s the job. You don’t sign up to drive around and ticket speeders. You sign up to keep the peace against people who may be violently breaking it.

    (Of course, in all fairness, I’m a military brat and I grew up around people who knew they could be killed, who were professionally trained to kill and be killed, so it’s possible that I may have a skewed viewpoint on what should be expected by someone in a job.)

    Nic (896fdf)

  162. I would. That’s the job. You don’t sign up to drive around and ticket speeders. You sign up to keep the peace against people who may be violently breaking it.

    You also sign up when you have outstanding warrants, blow off officer instructions and reach for something.

    beer ‘n pretzels (6f7034)

  163. @165 You left out my crucial preface:

    If there was a danger of you being killed, and you could not use deadly force to counter an imminent threat of such, then my hat is off to you for your bravery, and you should consider yourself lucky that you survived that job.

    If you want to put your life on the line like that [meaning the scenario I described in the preceding sentence], that’s one thing. However, I wouldn’t expect the police to risk their lives in such a manner.

    Of course the police should face the risk from the scenario you have in mind. That, however, is not the situation I described.

    norcal (a5428a)

  164. @167 Ah, I didn’t connect those two parts well enough. Sorry.

    Nic (896fdf)

  165. @168 No worries. I think we both mean well.

    norcal (a5428a)

  166. By the way, what kind of pussy caliber are those police guns? .380? How do you put seven rounds in a guy’s back without killing him?

    norcal (a5428a)

  167. By the way, what kind of pussy caliber are those police guns?

    A gun is only as good as the person holding it, norcal.

    nk (1d9030)

  168. Did you notice that just one cop had no difficulty manhandling the hysterical woman I mentioned above, but three of them could not manhandle a man so that they would not need to shoot him when waving their magical wands at him did not compel him to bow their Autorität?

    nk (1d9030)

  169. but three of them could not manhandle a man so that they would not need to shoot him

    Maybe they should’ve put a knee on his neck.

    beer ‘n pretzels (8482e2)

  170. Or into his groin. Say what you want about Chauvin, he wasn’t a pussy. I’m only judging from the photos and video, but Floyd looks like he had half a foot of height and maybe a 50 pound weight advantage.

    nk (1d9030)

  171. Protestors shot in kenosha wisconsin. White man with assault rife chased by protestors.

    asset (f3e8c3)

  172. SEVEN SHOTS, point blank- in the back– is the sort of behavior you’d expect from Capone, not cops.

    The perfect dopey contrast to Dustin’s sensible comments, illustrating the range of commenters here.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  173. Can anyone watch the video on the following Twitter post and tell me why this is not the same thing as the Brown Shirts in the early 1930s?

    Easy. The people in the video have their raised hands in fists.

    If they uncurled their fists and extended their fingers … well, it still wouldn’t be the same thing, but it would share some significant mob-style visuals.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  174. its funny how all those conclusions lead to ruined lives, businesses et al, isn’t it, when will they get something right at first glance,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  175. 176. DOPEY? Not much of an argument, P. The dope was the cop who shot a citizen SEVEN TIMES in back at point blank range.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  176. and furthermore, take the example of sanford, the reporters who perpetrated that fraud, were advanced up the chain, abc’s guttman to la, where he helped sabotage the evidence chain in san bernadino, of course frances robles to the times, coates gained some more fame,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  177. How do you put seven rounds in a guy’s back without killing him?

    At point blank range? By not only being a dopey cop but a lousy shot.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  178. Kenosha officials unanimously approved body cameras for police in 2017, the AP reported, but regulatory questions and budget restrains mean they are not due to arrive until 2022.

    COPCAMs w/chip and lapel clip included are only $5.99 plus tax ea., at our local 99-Cent Store.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  179. Lies, damned lies, and statistics*: https://www.wshu.org/post/suicide-leading-cause-death-police-officers-data-show#stream/0 More cops will shoot themselves than be shot by others, but it doesn’t hurt the agenda** to lump all the shootings together.

    *Yeah, I plagiarized that, what you gonna do about it?
    **That’s called irony by understatement.

    nk (1d9030)

  180. a reminder that was memory holed, in all relevant places,

    KYLE JUREK, SANDERS CAMPAIGN FIELD ORGANIZER: If Bernie doesn’t get the nomination or it goes to a second round at the DNC Convention. F*cking Milwaukee will burn.

    they went long, targeting much more than milwaukee,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  181. COPCAMs w/chip and lapel clip included are only $5.99 plus tax ea., at our local 99-Cent Store.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/26/2020 @ 9:39 am

    It’s not the camera. It’s how you store the data, how you review the data, how you retain the data.

    That takes a substantial recurring payment, good policies on who classifies each video (some will delete in a few months, some in a few years, some never), and who reviews videos and on what basis. I believe each state’s police licensure agency should hire people who either retired as cops or dispatchers with a clean complaint record, or otherwise demonstrated a good understanding of policing, to quality control body cam footage outside each police department. This raises huge privacy problems. Think about all the things a cop sees.

    Anyway, this is a bigger undertaking than any other piece of equipment. It is easy for the community to scoff at these problems, but those same voices seem the least understanding when solutions weren’t well thought out.

    Dustin (5418f4)

  182. The fellow in the video embedded in the post had a choice. He made a decision to go to his car and reach inside. I actually have a hard time believing people consider this to be obviously unjustified.

    The copper had a ‘choice’ too. What “people”- aka citizens- appear to ‘believe obviously unjustified’ is shooting a citizen at ‘point blank range’ seven times in the back.

    It’s clearly excessive. Conjecture, but it’s the sort of reactive behavior you’d expect from personnel, possibly ex-military, who may have let that muscle memory training kick in over any civil police training they were given.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  183. It’s not the camera. It’s how you store the data, how you review the data, how you retain the data.

    Which is all pretty useless w/o— a camera. And how you review it– like watching it?! In today’s world, cameras are every place. W/good data storage capacity. And they’re cheap.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  184. It’s clearly excessive. Conjecture, but it’s the sort of reactive behavior you’d expect from personnel, possibly ex-military, who may have let that muscle memory training kick in over any civil police training they were given.

    No, the police departments teach them to shoot that way. Two-handed hold, acquire front sight only, aim at center mass, keep shooting until the perp is down or you’re empty.

    nk (1d9030)

  185. Latest tragedy in Kenosha is two people dead, one injured.

    I think news of this latest tragedy belongs here more then the open thread.

    Apparently someone let their 17 year old attempt to help keep the peace during protests / riots with an AR14. There is evidence he had friendly contact with the police prior to the shooting. While I think Greg Doucette does good work with his round up, i haven’t seen any evidence to support his claim that the shooter was a white nationalist.

    Kenosha Police said early Wednesday morning that two people had been shot and killed and a third injured during protests over the shooting of Jacob Blake; authorities were looking for a man armed with a long gun.

    Earlier Wednesday, Kenosha County Sheriff David Beth told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that one victim had been shot in the head and another in the chest late Tuesday, just before midnight. Beth didn’t know where the other person was shot, but video posted on social media showed someone had been shot in the arm.

    The incident occurred at about 11:45 p.m. in the area of 63rd Street and Sheridan Road, Kenosha police said.

    The release from the Kenosha Police Department said the injuries to the third individual were not life threatening. The release said the names, ages and cities of residence for the victims were still being determined.

    The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel is reporting that an arrest has been made following an investigation into last night’s fatal shootings.

    MILWAUKEE J.S. SAYS ARREST MADE RELATED TO THE KENOSHA SHOOTING
    Meanwhile, the Daily Dot has reportedly pulled court papers showing that 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse was arrested and charged with first degree murder and labeled a “fugitive from justice.”

    Time123 (dba73f)

  186. Yeah that’s about right.

    Everyone thinks that because they can shoot precisely at a paper target or with a sim-round that they would be OK under fire. I think people evolved to have this kind of confidence in their personal abilities. First thing to go when you’re in a real fight is that front part of your brain that can make plans, process information well, and perform fine motor skills. So you fall back on training and training is based on what’s realistic and fast.

    The best way to mitigate this is to hire people who are in very good physical shape and to test them routinely. Same for psych evals and competency tests. But to do that, you need a steady stream of very qualifies people who want to be cops, and I don’t think that’s happening even for high paying departments.

    Which is all pretty useless w/o— a camera. And how you review it– like watching it?! In today’s world, cameras are every place. W/good data storage capacity. And they’re cheap.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/26/2020 @ 10:08 am

    You’re advocating cops just using cheap cameras with USB ports, no control over the data. You trust the police more than I do. I like how you dismiss the important part while repeating the unimportant, but you’re on a roll, keep going I guess.

    Bodycameras need one feature more than any other: the data needs to upload automatically, and there should be no way to remove or modify the video. AXON does this pretty well. There is still a lot of control over data retention, and I think that needs to be fundamentally changed. PDs can get the cameras for free. It’s the data retention that costs money (and it costs a lot).

    I think all cops should wear body cameras, but it takes a lot to do this properly, and we can’t just roll our eyes at it. These videos often have incredibly sensitive information in them. There was a law student at UT who wrote a seminar paper about bodycams that I initially disagreed with (she had discussed it with me while writing it) but it was one of those things where once it was in my head I realized in practice there were a lot of problems with police control of the data. I say that thinking for the most part cops are trying to do the right thing, and have a really hard time doing it these days. But solving the problem helps the cops for the same reason the body cameras themselves help the cops.

    This is a really interesting problem but it’s not a ‘lol cameras are so cheap this is so easy lol’ issue.

    Dustin (5418f4)

  187. First part of my comment was a response to nk. Sorry that was unclear.

    Dustin (5418f4)

  188. That comment isn’t formatted well and I hit publish too soon.

    Meant to link to ZeroHedge who has additional info on the latest shooter.

    Also wanted to really stress that letting a older child (17) try and help keep the peace with a gun and no direct supervision is horrible parenting.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  189. This is a really interesting problem but it’s not a ‘lol cameras are so cheap this is so easy lol’ issue.

    Dustin (5418f4) — 8/26/2020 @ 10:46 am

    Dustin, I appreciate you sharing your perspective. One thing I’d add is this truism; Every hard problem has a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong.

    “Just give out camera’s” seems like it falls into that category.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  190. @190. No, Dustin. I’m advocating police departments purchase and wear the bodycams that have been budgeted for and never turn them off while on duty for their own protection – given the battery of cameras citizens routinely carry to record and counter any spin. It’s a helluva lot cheaper than settling multi-million dollar lawsuits.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  191. @188. It’s excessive: seven shots at point blank range.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  192. A better summary of the latest killing

    Kyle Rittenhouse, 17, was arrested today on first-degree murder charges after he shot three protesters — two of whom have died — in Kenosha, WI., on Tuesday night, The New York Times and USA Today reported.

    The teenager, who was armed with an AK-47, is from Antioch, Illinois, and crossed state lines to stand guard outside businesses during unrest stemming from the police shooting of Jacob Blake days earlier.

    He was taken into custody in and will be charged with first-degree intentional homicide, USA Today’s Nick Penzenstadler tweeted.

    This Vidoes shows him walking up to the police allegedly after he shot too people. He’s frequently touching his gun while approaching them. I think the police were correct not to shoot him here as he didn’t end up trying to hurt them, but it’s hard to compare this to the video that started the problem and not think something’s wrong.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  193. @188. You know who’d rationalize a police or security force shooting citizens seven times in the back at point blank range?

    Vladimir Putin.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  194. The young man that recently shot three people, killing 2, seems like a nice kid.

    Why in the hell was an untrained child carrying a rifle in around a riot zone?

    Time123 (dba73f)

  195. Why in the hell was an untrained child carrying a rifle in around a riot zone?

    The Second Amendment.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  196. @199,
    He’s legally a child. Where were his parents?
    It’s a riot zone, there’s a state of emergency in effect, some rights were (properly IMO) being curtailed due to circumstances.

    I wouldn’t be asking this if he’d used that rifle to hunt dear, or defend himself from a home invasion.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  197. Time,

    why do you keep calling a 17 year old a child versus a teenager? Normally he’d be called a young man. What is the purpose?

    As for the video of his shooting, have you seen it?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  198. He’s being charged as an adult…

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  199. More important question, where are the cops and the National Guard? Why weren’t they mobilized and in force? Why is our local government allowing criminals to run wild on the street, to loot, pillage and attack at will?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  200. @201. Because I want to make it clear we’re talking about someone that’s legally a child.”Young man” is used to refer to people from late teens to mid to late 20’s. IMO there’s a vast difference in judgement between a 25 year old and a 17 year old. That’s why I stressing it. He should never have been by himself in this situation.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  201. @202, I don’t know if I think charging him as an adult is the right thing to do.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  202. Kenosha mayor & sheriff doing presser, shoveling smoke; no specifics– just lots and lots and lots of ‘investigators’ coming in to do “investigating.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  203. @203, Good question and good point.

    In the last video i linked you can see police lights.

    In other videos, he walks up and talks to the police. It’s being alleged that he interacted with the police before and after the shooting.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  204. @199,
    He’s legally a child. Where were his parents?

    I see lots of folks talking about how people were chasing him down the street and that means it was self defense. Small problem, he’d already shot a guy in the head, and that was him escaping the scene and shooting people trying to stop him. He’s in a world of hurt, his defense will be that the dead guy threatened him and he’s a child. His parents are FUU…screwed.

    He’s from Illinois, Does he have a FOID? If not, it was illegal to have a rifle in Illinois, before he crossed state lines and shot people.

    He crossed state lines to “protect” businesses that he has no connection to and in Wisconsin there is no stand your ground law, plus

    Possession of a dangerous weapon by anyone under 18 is a class A misdemeanor. Giving/loaning/selling a dangerous weapon to someone under 18 is a class I felony.

    WI statute 948.60

    Defenses to prosecution under this statute:

    Target practice under the supervision of an adult
    Members of armed forces or police under 18 in the line of duty
    Hunting (either with an adult or having passed hunter’s safety)

    He also evaded police and ran back across state lines.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  205. @208, good additional information

    The AP is reporting that the police may have let him go after they had reasonable suspicion a crime was committed.

    According to witness accounts and video footage, police apparently let the young man responsible for the shootings walk past them with a rifle over his shoulder as members of the crowd were yelling for him to be arrested because he had shot people.

    I hope that any investigation of this latest killing looks at actions by the police to identify if improvements in training or policy are needed. I don’t want people in hard jobs punished for making an honest mistake, but i want our system to get better.

    That will take time. Today the community in Kenosha 2 incidents to contrast; both with videos. The first is a black man being shot in the back 7 times when he reached into his car.

    The second is a video of a 17 year old white male that killed two people walking up to the police carrying a rifle and being allowed to leave.

    These two stories from the same time and place will likely further harm people’s trust in the police. I don’t know what happened. But I know that story before us today is a terrible one, and additional information is needed as soon as we can be confident in it.

    Vice President Biden has called for an end to the violence associated with these protests while expressing support for the right to protest and support for better policing. That is the minimum decent thing to do. It’s not nearly enough. He needs to lay out his ideas for how to improve this situation. Using his position and credibility he needs to draw a brighter line between legitimate protests and criminal riots. He has no official power, there’s a limit to what he can do. But this situation is spiraling further out of control because a lack of leadership.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  206. @188. You know who’d rationalize a police or security force shooting citizens seven times in the back at point blank range?

    Vladimir Putin.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/26/2020 @ 11:18 am

    nk didn’t rationalize the use of force. he explained why these shootings unfold the way they do, seemingly without precision (which is how Putin uses force because his goal is the death of a specific person, quite the opposite of what happened here).

    Stop working from your conclusion to come up with arguments. You’re a smart guy. Work from the beginning. What’s going on in the mind of each of the players in these incidents? What is the incentive to run? to not run? To use a taser, or shoot? Why are these problems still happening with all the leaders in our country hoping to stop them, and why do they happen more in progressive cities?

    It’s because the cops using force are a symptom of a greater systemic failure for black men. Foster kids, fathers, schools, getting popped for a felony (like possession of a serious drug), then a second, trying to get a job, being burglarized or robbed, cops who commute to a front line instead of coming from the community they work with.

    It’s actually more of an economic problem, but it’s also a racism one. Anyone making bumper sticker arguments out of this has a hardened heart or a dumb brain.

    Dustin (5418f4)

  207. Didn’t say he did, Dustin- simply conveyed conversation. Don’t be so sensitive, D -who do you think you are, Donald Trump? 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  208. @210. Work from the beginning.

    Okay. Begin w/this: you don’t shoot a citizen SEVEN TIMES in the back at point blank range.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  209. Okay. Begin w/this: you don’t shoot a citizen SEVEN TIMES in the back at point blank range.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/26/2020 @ 12:45 pm

    try again

    You’re starting with your conclusion.

    Dustin (5418f4)

  210. @210 Dustin, your insights on this are fantastic. They should let you do your own posts.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  211. @212

    @210. Work from the beginning.

    Okay. Begin w/this: you don’t shoot a citizen SEVEN TIMES in the back at point blank range.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/26/2020 @ 12:45 pm

    No. Begin with Blake refusing to comply with lawful orders.

    whembly (c30c83)

  212. Didn’t say he did, Dustin- simply conveyed conversation. Don’t be so sensitive, D -who do you think you are, Donald Trump? 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/26/2020 @ 12:42 pm

    Meh I wear my heart on my sleeve and I’m not afraid of that. It’s helped me more than it’s hurt me but it’s not free. I say what I think I should say. I don’t think I’m that thin skinned but I do have a tendency to run my mouth on here.

    You cited nk’s comment and explained rationalizing the cops force is like supporting Putin, but nk didn’t actually rationalize the force and the argument was stupid on the larger level.

    Stop starting with your conclusion and working backwards because it makes your comments tedious.

    Dustin (5418f4)

  213. [Former] Vice President Biden has called for an end to the violence associated with these protests while expressing support for the right to protest and support for better policing.

    Translation: he supports six of one along with half a dozen of the other.

    “Well, sir, if you ask me… it’s double-talk.” – Kendall J. Fielder [Bill Edwards] ‘Tora! Tora! Tora!’ 1970

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  214. @213. Wrong. No. Begin w/this: you don’t shoot a citizen SEVEN TIMES in the back at point blank range.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  215. @217, you really can’t see the different between our right to protest and a riot?

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  216. Suspect Charged With Murder After 2 Shot Dead At Kenosha Protest
    ……
    The suspect, 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse, was reportedly arrested in his hometown of Antioch, Illinois, and charged with first-degree murder on Wednesday. Police had been searching for him after a man holding a long gun was captured on video shooting several people during the protests and then fleeing the scene.
    …….
    The third night of demonstrations appeared to turn deadly when heavily armed white vigilantes entered into the mix.

    Investigators say they are focusing on a group of men with guns who were lined up outside some businesses a few blocks down the road from the courthouse, Beth told The New York Times. Ostensibly, the vigilantes were there to “protect” businesses from fires that had been set during previous nights of demonstrations.

    A now-deleted Facebook page that appears to belong to Rittenhouse featured almost exclusively pro-police imagery and photos of the suspect carrying guns. At some point he changed his profile image to a “Blue Lives Matter” sign and held a fundraiser for a police nonprofit called “Humanizing The Badge.”

    Militia members may have been drawn to the city through a Facebook post by a group calling itself the Kenosha Guard, which encouraged “patriots” to “take up arms and defend our city tonight from the evil thugs,” The Verge reported. It was unclear whether the suspect belonged to any militia groups.

    In one video circulating social media, a person with a long gun is jogging down a main road when he appears to trip, firing off shots at protesters around him before getting up and trotting toward police vehicles (in the video, embedded below, one person falls to the ground after approaching the shooter and does not get up).
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  217. @219. Biden wants it both ways. What else did you expect a seedy pol w/50 years of Washington swamp sludge in his shorts to say.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  218. I disagree, I think saying you have a right to protest but not to riot, loot, and destroy property is a defensible position.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  219. @210 Dustin, your insights on this are fantastic. They should let you do your own posts.
    Time123 (dba73f) — 8/26/2020 @ 12:47 pm

    I second that! I would be very interested in seeing Dustin guest-post here, especially on Law Enforcement matters.

    felipe (023cc9)

  220. I would be very interested in seeing Vladimir Putin guest-post here, especially on Law Enforcement matters. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  221. CNN reporting Milwaukee Bucks boycott NBA playoff game after Jacob Blake shooting.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  222. https://twitter.com/jackmurphylive/status/1298629916041400320

    Looks like the kid is going to claim self defense… and according to this video, he only shot AFTER the skateboard guy attacked and when the hand-gun dude approached him afterwards.

    Looking to see if there’s a different angle with better sound…

    whembly (c30c83)

  223. felipe (023cc9) — 8/26/2020 @ 1:35 pm

    Translation: I wish to be challenged.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/26/2020 @ 1:38 pm

    Translation: I wish to be entertained.

    felipe (023cc9)

  224. Whembly, the video you linked is after he had shot another person. I believe this is the video of his original shooting. Here’s another view.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  225. @228 Time… there’s nothing in those links about yesterday’s shooting. Did you mess up the links?

    Was his first shot a warning shot?

    https://twitter.com/jackmurphylive/status/1298629916041400320
    This video shows the kid shooting the skateboard dude AFTER skateboard dude attacked him. And while on the ground, looks like he was clearing a misfire(?) he shot again at the glock dude in the arm.

    Do you have a better sequence of event?

    whembly (c30c83)

  226. try this one

    may have to scroll a bit to find it in the thread pile.

    What I think happened is that he shot someone at a car dealership. Left that scene, calmly and talking on the phone. Was pursued by people trying to detain him and fired on his pursuers.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  227. All NBA playoff games ‘postponed.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  228. There is a thread on RedState with the video. Not linking.

    NJRob (12a919)

  229. Still not seeing it.

    Him shooting at a car dealership is new info to me… where did you see that?

    Again, the sequence of event I saw was:
    -kid on the ground (how did he get there, I saw another video that looked like someone push “someone” down, so if that’s him)
    -skateboard dude attacks him and kid shoots him (and killing him)
    -after another dude with a glock approaches the kid, and the kid shoots him hitting glock dude on the arm.

    whembly (c30c83)

  230. @232 thanks, watching the youtube video now.

    whembly (c30c83)

  231. Argh. Maybe this.

    Greg Doucette has it as part of 886 for his mega thread. For whatever reason it won’t link to the actual video i’m trying to link.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  232. COPCAMs w/chip and lapel clip included are only $5.99 plus tax ea., at our local 99-Cent Store.

    Obviously, you have never dealt with the bureaucracy’s purchasing department. There’s a reason for $700 hammers and toilet seats.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  233. How do you put seven rounds in a guy’s back without killing him?

    You are making assumptions about his aim.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  234. More of 8️⃣8️⃣6️⃣ in Kenosha WI[CW: gore]Person shot in the head by an armed white nationalist is tended by bystanders, as the shooter runs away while on the phone25 August 2020 PM[@abolishICE___] pic.twitter.com/DF372YfzdH— T. Greg Doucette (@greg_doucette) August 26, 2020

    I think this one will get it done.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  235. Here’s the video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13904&v=ss-G-FX3Nys&feature=emb_logo
    Watch time 3:59.00 and 3:59.45.

    This article has a clearer view of the two shooting victims:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8667265/Gunman-17-charged-Kenosha-fatal-shootings.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-top

    No video so far showing the kid shooting (warning shots??) at the dealership to stop ongoing looting.

    So, the sequence of events is this:
    -kid allegedly fired warning shots (unclear if he shot at anyone) to stop ongoing riot at car dealership.
    -kid runs away after being chased by a large crowed.
    -kid gets hit multiple times trying to get away.
    -kid falls down, and is struck several times as he sits up.
    -kid gets hit by skateboard dude, and looks like skateboard dude tries to grab the rifle and failed (rifle strapped to kid) and kid shoots skateboard dude.
    -Glock pistol dude approach not even 5 feet from kid still sitting down and shots Glock dude in arm.
    -kid gets up and tactically retreats and the rest of the crowd avoids him.
    -In youtube video above, looks like the kid approaches the police (and evidently they let him go).

    whembly (c30c83)

  236. @238 okay, that’s new:
    https://twitter.com/abolishICE___/status/1298509373191331841

    What precipitated that shooting?

    whembly (c30c83)

  237. No. Begin with Blake refusing to comply with lawful orders.

    This would doom the deaf, the permanently befuddled, those confused by conflicting/misunderstood orders (“Keep your hands up” at the same time as “get down on the ground”), and some who are under the influence. Some of these should not be driving, or have minders, but they should not all be shot out of hand.

    There was a point in the struggle here, and in the other video where the cops are shot, where the police should have applied far more force to the guy who wanted to wrestle. I think the choke hold has got a bad rap. It might be dangerous but it is less so than a shootout.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  238. Whembly, The article you linked (thank you) says this.

    Witness accounts and video show that the shootings took place in two stages: The gunman first shot someone at a car lot, then jogged away, stumbled and fell in the street, and opened fire again as members of the crowd closed in him.

    The video I linked (finally) is for the incident in bold.

    I don’t know what caused that initial shooting.

    My understanding is that he was fleeing the scene of the first shooting and being pursued when the 2nd shooting happened. But would love to know more.

    I do know that a 17 year old should not be walking around a tense situation unsupervised, with a rifle, trying to keep the peace, alone.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  239. @242

    I do know that a 17 year old should not be walking around a tense situation unsupervised, with a rifle, trying to keep the peace, alone.

    Time123 (dba73f) — 8/26/2020 @ 2:43 pm

    This right here I agree with you.

    whembly (c30c83)

  240. So, in a riot situation, with cops responding to a shooting, a guy runs up to cops with his hands in the air and an AR15 in plain view and their comment is “get out of the road!”.

    The question one has to ask is “suppose he had been black?”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  241. Of all the towns I have been to, north and south, Milwaukee is the one I saw the most overt racial prejudice.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  242. Here’s a breakdown of the 1st shooting, all the way to the next:
    https://www.revolver.news/2020/08/evidence-sugguests-kyle-rittenhouse-did-nothing-wrong/

    whembly (c30c83)

  243. The Kenosha Shooting Suspect Was In The Front Row Of A Trump Rally In January
    The law enforcement–obsessed 17-year-old who was charged with shooting and killing two people and injuring another in Kenosha, Wisconsin, during protests for Jacob Blake appeared in the front row at a Donald Trump rally in January.

    Kyle Howard Rittenhouse’s social media presence is filled with him posing with weapons, posting “Blue Lives Matter,” and supporting Trump for president. Footage from the Des Moines, Iowa, rally on Jan. 30 shows Rittenhouse feet away from the president, in the front row, to the left of the podium. He posted a TikTok video from the event.

    Seven months later, Rittenhouse went with his rifle to the third night of Black Lives Matter protests in Kenosha after police shot and paralyzed Blake, an innocent black man. Rittenhouse attended as an armed vigilante, supposedly assisting police and protecting property in an unofficial capacity but instead he prowled the protest with a gun. Videos captured him fraternizing with law enforcement and attempting to get their attention.
    …….
    Videos taken on Tuesday night showed Rittenhouse running through the streets holding a large gun weaving through protesters, who’d gathered to demand justice for Blake. Right before midnight, Kenosha police said three people were shot on the corner of 63rd Street and Sheridan road, and noted that, “investigators are aware of the social media video being circulated regarding the incident.”
    …..
    After the alleged shootings, video shows Rittenhouse walking directly towards four police vehicles, holding his weapon and his arms raised. People were shouting at police that he had just shot someone. The police vehicles drove past Rittenhouse and did not detain him. When asked about the video Wednesday, Sheriff Beth said that in those situations police have “incredible tunnel vision” because of the loud noises — “there’s screaming, hollering and chanting” — and could not explain why they did not detain him.

    During a press conference on Wednesday, Kenosha County Sheriff David Beth said that he’d been asked by a group of armed vigilantes to deputize citizens to allow them to help law enforcement during protests. Referencing the shootings that killed two people, Beth said, “I think they were part of this group that wanted me to deputize them.”
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  244. @236. Obviously, you have never dealt with the bureaucracy’s purchasing department. There’s a reason for $700 hammers and toilet seats.

    Yes. Saw ID4.

    In fact- have. 1981; boss tells me to contact internal purchasing dept., Panasonic. Single T-120 VHS tape, internal cost, $15. (in 1980 $ BTW.) Crazy Eddie was selling them for $6 ea. Told boss; got petty cash voucher, headed to CE’s. Could tell you about $120/30 minute inter-department videocart transfers at CBS but that would be… condescending.

    “You don’t actually think they spend $20,000 on a hammer, $30,000 on a toilet seat, do you?” – Julius Levinson [Judd Hirsch] ‘Independence Day’ 1996

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  245. 223. @210 Dustin, your insights on this are fantastic. They should let you do your own posts.
    Time123 (dba73f) — 8/26/2020 @ 12:47 pm

    I second that! I would be very interested in seeing Dustin guest-post here, especially on Law Enforcement matters.

    felipe (023cc9) — 8/26/2020 @ 1:35 pm

    I would be very interested in seeing Vladimir Putin guest-post here, especially on Law Enforcement matters. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/26/2020 @ 1:38 pm

    DCSCA, that is a personal attack on another commenter. I hope you will rethink that but I expect you to double down. I have noticed that is a quality other Trump supporters share.

    DRJ (aede82)

  246. Should NASA buy off the shelf, DCSCA? Should it have always done that? It might have cost some lives but think of the money saved.

    DRJ (aede82)

  247. Even-steven? The nattering gnats annoying diners in DC driving voters into Trump’s camp and the young Minuteman von Rittenhouse in Kenosha driving voters into Biden’s camp?

    nk (1d9030)

  248. @249.???? a PA?? No it’s not. Dustin and I are great debaters w/each other.

    @250. NASA has been buying ‘off the shelf’ since the Dan Goldin days, DRJ.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  249. Whembly, good link. Some of what they describe doesn’t look to me like they described it. The Molotov for instance. But this raises some questions.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  250. BTW DRJ. I’m not a ‘Trump supporter’- I strongly oppose Joe Biden. A Yuuuuuuuuuuuge difference. But you know that.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  251. NASA uses military standards for its purchases because off the shelf items are not reliable enough for space flight.

    DRJ (aede82)

  252. No, DCSCA, at this point you are a Trump supporter because you hate conservatives. Is Biden too conservative for you?

    DRJ (aede82)

  253. @255. NASA has been purchasing OTS for years, DRJ. Particularly the IC components which were presenting repair/relaceet problems as much of hardware was ‘vintage’ and required individual components to be manufactured as replacements. Today they used as much OTS materials as they can to speed changeout– and meet safety standrards for flight and ground ops.

    @256. Wrong. Don’t put words in my mouth. Don’t ‘hate” conservatives; do cheer the swift demise of the modern ideological conservative movement a la Goldwater/Reagan. It’s had its run. Trump is more ‘conservative’ than you may appreciate- just in a different light. Besides, should he win again, you’ll get a conservative SCOTUS. It’s a fair tradeoff.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  254. @255. OTS 101: you know, DRJ, back in the day when they ran radiation studies on the two Voyager spacecraft, the smart boys and girls at JPL realized they’d under-estimated the field intensities they’d have to fly through-especial at Jupiter– and had under-insulted several critical wire bundles and the launch dates were fast approaching. So the NASA/JPL team went to Pasadena grocery stores and literally bought up as many rolls of aluminum foil as they could get their hands on and hand wrapped the multiple bundles to add insulation protection before the spacecraft were shipped to Cape Canaveral for launch.

    You can’t get more ‘off the shelf’ than that. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  255. What’s off the shelf, DCSCA?

    1. Could I buy it at Ace Hardware?
    or
    2. Is it like Kodak’s space cameras, whose precision bearings were subcontracted out to one of my clients?

    Following American Institute of Steel and Iron specifications, or Unified Screw Standards specifications, does not make a component “off the shelf”. It makes it “being on the same page”.

    nk (1d9030)

  256. Is Biden too conservative for you?

    He’s part of the problem, DRJ. He is not only a plagiarist who was forced to quit in ’88 because of it- he’s a dishonest man who has had 50 years to solve problems at the highest levels of government nd flubbed it. He screwed the middle class, h is a pal to banks an the likes of DuPont. Conservatives should be cheering Trump on for the court–and lining up behind my choice for 2024- Nikki Haley.

    Nikki can be the first woman president. She’s the right age, the right gender, the right color for the right times and right enough to attract crossover voters. If she rantoday I’d vote for her. If I’m alive in 2024 and she runs, I’ll vote for her then.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  257. Heh! I had not seen the aluminum foil example. Okay, then.

    nk (1d9030)

  258. @259. Not every item, of course, but grocery store tin foil worked fine for NASA’s Voyager. If Ace carries it, sure. I have packets of freeze dried coffee that didn’t make it aboard a Soyuz run framed up in the den a friend sent to me some year back. Yuban. And, of course, the Fisher Space Pen is available in stores.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  259. @261. Yeah, they were pretty resourceful at JPL.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  260. Build a better mousetrap, and the Cat Planet will send spaceships to your door:

    A common misconception states that, faced with the fact that ball-point pens would not write in zero-gravity, the Fisher Space Pen was devised as the result of millions of dollars of unnecessary spending on NASA’s part when the Soviet Union took the simpler and cheaper route of just using pencils. In reality, the space pen was independently developed by Paul C. Fisher, founder of the Fisher Pen Company, with $1 million of his own funds.[1][2][3][4] NASA tested and approved the pen for space use, then purchased 400 pens at $6 per pen.[5] The Soviet Union subsequently also purchased the space pen for its Soyuz spaceflights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing_in_space

    nk (1d9030)

  261. @259. There’s the old story of Glenn buying a camera at a Cocoa Beach drug store to carry aboard Friendship 7. [If memory serves, it was an Ansco.] They did a few modifications to it for sighting as he as wearing a helmet and it went up and around with him. And the camera astronauts used to photograph images through Skylab’s telescope mount was a Polaroid SX-70 – they kept th film in a small lead-lined vault aboard. And in the early 90s the then new hand-held video cameras which were smaller, lighter and used CCD chips instead of videcon tubes carried aboard shuttle were Sonys–and they used the small cassette tapes to down load images during flight. Same products you could buy at an electronics store.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  262. @265. Meh. That’s true. And, of curse, there’s the myths about Teflon—- and Tang. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  263. @265. Old Spice Brushless shaving cream was carried aboard Apollo 11. Mike Collins donated his to the Smithsonian. Believe Armour hot dogs were part of the low residue diet menus, too back in the day. Coke and Pepsi competed for shuttle spaceflight soda dispenser contracts in the ’80s, too. Lots of OTS items made it up– as long as they didn’t burn.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  264. A few more “off-the-shelf” products purchased for use by NASA:

    a. M&M’s (candy coated chocolates) in ALL forms
    b. Jello Pudding cups
    c. IBM Thinkpad computers
    d. Nikon and Canon camera equipment
    e. Immodium AD
    f. Oreos and Chips Ahoy cookies
    g. Tabasco Sauce
    h. Cabella pants and shorts
    i. Land’s End Shirts
    j. Swiss Army Knife
    k. Omega Speedmaster 33X watches (I own an Apollo era Omega Speedmaster myself)
    l. Hanes boxer shorts
    m. Asics running shoes (the brand I selected for my mission)
    n. Kodak film
    o. Mach 3 razors/blades
    p. Colgate toothpaste
    q. Velcro
    r. Plastic “Zip” ties
    s. iPads (just flown recently)
    t. Huggies Baby Wipes
    u. Tootsie Pops
    v. Girl Scout Cookies
    w. Pentel mechanical pencils
    x. Fisher Space Pens
    y. Sharpies
    z. 3M Sticky notes
    zz. Casio electronic keyboard

    source – quora.com

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  265. @268. Postscript- the list was compiled by NASA ISS astronaut Clayton Anderson; The Omega Speedmaster watch is mine.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  266. Rip Murdock, you have your predilection for posting long comments that are copy-and-pastes from various news sources. That’s fine as far as it goes, but you oftentimes choose pretty questionable sources which don’t really do much to add credibility to whatever argument you are trying to make. For instance, your comment about Rittenhouse, pasted from BuzzFeed, contains this line:

    Seven months later, Rittenhouse went with his rifle to the third night of Black Lives Matter protests in Kenosha after police shot and paralyzed Blake, an innocent black man.

    “Innocent”? That’s a new one on me, and it seems to come entirely from BLM talking points that are easily discredited. We now know that the officers were called upon the scene by an (ex?) girlfriend of Blake’s because he was “not supposed to be on the premises” (restraining order?). Blake did not comply with police orders, was not kept at bay by a taser, and he has now apparently admitted to having a knife, which is what he might have been trying to get rid of as he went to the driver’s side of the automobile. We also know that there was a warrant out for his arrest on a prior rape charge. So the idea that he was “innocent” is so utterly laughable that it renders the BuzzFeed post completely worthless.

    Again, quote from sources to your heart’s content, but your comments would be so much the better if you would take the time to analyze them critically and maybe acknowledge where they are completely full of crap.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  267. Ok, you don’t hate conservatives, only their beliefs; and you don’t support Trump, you just oppose every single person he faces from either Party. Most of all, you seem to adore showmen, especially Trump and Cronkite. That is not any version of conservatism.

    DRJ (aede82)

  268. Off the shelf and sent into space with no testing at all? Pull my other finger.

    DRJ (aede82)

  269. @271. Really? Then explain my repeated support on this forum for Nikki Haley.

    I steadfastly oppose the modern ideological conservative movement and am thrilled to see it banished to the ash heap of history by Trump. It has had its run.

    BTW Trump is a showman– a transition to something– or nothing. Cronkite was a journalist. And he’d be embarrassed by what passes for journalism today. He didn’t give JFK a pass like today’s journalists do for Biden.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  270. @272. Take it up w/NASA/ JPL or w/t astronauts who flew w/t items. Glenn, Shepard, Mike Collins… the Skylab crews- or Clay Anderson. They have some standards– chiefly weight and that the materials don’t burn. Fire is always the fear.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  271. You explain your support for Nikki.

    DRJ (aede82)

  272. Would you pick her over Trump? Tell us why.

    DRJ (aede82)

  273. @275. Have. Repeatedly. Scroll up. She should be his VP.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  274. @276. No sense in being angry that your ‘version’ of conservatism has been left behind. That National Review from a few years ago; the Lincoln Poject–that says it all. The tail no longer wags the dog; it’s a ‘hollow’ decayed movement– even the bitter Reagan apologist, George Will, is voting for Biden out of pure angst. They cannot lead; will not follow; so either get out of the way or get run over.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  275. There was a Mars lander that had communications failures because they had used an OTS modem which could not handle the frequency offsets caused by the effect of cold on the timing circuit.

    https://mars.nasa.gov/MPF/rovercom/rovfaq.html#faq2

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  276. I steadfastly oppose the modern ideological conservative movement and am thrilled to see it banished to the ash heap of history by Trump. It has had its run.

    So, the proper role of the GOP is as a statist party like the Democrats, just with different clients?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  277. Would you pick her over Trump? Tell us why.

    She’s not stupid, nor is she self-obsessed.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  278. I would pick a glass of water over Trump, but no woman would be my first choice under any other circumstances, and the fact that he’s forcing me to vote for the Kamala Harris woman is one more reason I want to flush the mother-figure.

    nk (1d9030)

  279. you ought to get that fifty shades fixation fixed

    https://twitter.com/login/FMrAndyNgo%2Fstatus%2F1298833015548739587

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  280. @275. Have. Repeatedly. Scroll up. She should be his VP.

    That is irrelevant. Wanting her as VP is as relevant as having Pence as VP. Trump uses them as props, not advisors, so you still haven’t shown there is anyone you like even slightly more than Trump, let alone much more than Trump. That makes you a Trump supporter.

    DRJ (aede82)

  281. Kevin M gave us a good reason to support Nikki over Trump. You can’t, DCSCA.

    DRJ (aede82)

  282. @285. Have. You just haven’t paid attention.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  283. Leadership:

    Nikki Haley
    @NikkiHaley
    ·
    May 29
    We spent the last couple of days celebrating our son’s graduation. Tonight I turned on the news and am heartbroken. It’s important to understand that the death of George Floyd was personal and painful for many. In order to heal, it needs to be personal and painful for everyone.

    BuDuh (8aff36)

  284. @284. That is irrelevant..

    Except it’s not.

    You just don’t like it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  285. @279. So? ‘Cheaper. Faster. Better.’ was a Goldin mantre which didn’t always play out well. There was a Mars probe that missed the whole planet because engineers failed to convert some data from imperial to metric. ‘The U.S. is one of the few countries globally which still uses the Imperial system of measurement, where things are measured in feet, inches, pounds, ounces, etc.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  286. Then repeat your position here on the specific reasons Nikki is better than Trump right now, not 4 years from now. If it is so obvious, you should be able to do that easily.

    DRJ (aede82)

  287. Vanitas vanitatum, omnia vanitas. Space travel is not even in its infancy, it’s still in the “Hey, I have a friend who is pretty and nice and between boyfriends, would you like to go out with her?” stage, but ask me again when a round trip to Mars takes less than 18 months, or even when a rocket returns from the Moon weighing more than it did when it got there.

    nk (1d9030)

  288. @290. Been expressing support for Nikki for months, DRJ. You just missed it. Pretty much anybody is better than Trump ‘right now’– except Plagiarist JoeyBee, DRJ.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  289. Besides the tired “Biden is not Trump” comments, has anyone here, who is voting for Biden, listed “specific reasons” why Biden is better than Trump?

    BuDuh (8aff36)

  290. 282.I would pick a glass of water over Trump…

    His is a Diet Coke world. We just live in it. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  291. I did not miss that you supported her for VP. Why is she better than Trump for President now?

    DRJ (aede82)

  292. Biden is a better man than Trump because he is not a bully who habitually denigrates people who oppose him.

    DRJ (aede82)

  293. I am not voting for Biden, by the way.

    DRJ (aede82)

  294. @293

    Yes, in no particular order.

    1. Biden is more supportive of free trade, and because he’s a Dem the free traders within the GOP will wake up again.
    2. I expect Biden will make competency a far greater component of hiring decisions and that his administration will be better at the basic functions of government.
    3. I expect Biden to be far less corrupt than Trump has shown himself to be (e.g. Ukraine and nepotism)
    4. I expect Biden to show more respect for norms that limit executive power than Trump has shown.

    I don’t think Biden will be good at any of these. If I had the chance to vote for say, Rand Paul or Justin Amash i’d love it. But I don’t. I have the option to vote for an aged, generic democrat or corrupt and incompetent wannabe strong man.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  295. https://www.ontheissues.org/2020/Joe_Biden_Free_Trade.htm

    He sounds like a breath of fresh air.

    BuDuh (8aff36)

  296. The rest of your list has nothing to do with policy or the betterment of the American citizens. Just personality gripes. I wonder what Clarence Thomas has to say about the new and improved non wanna be strongman Biden.

    BuDuh (8aff36)

  297. I wanted Biden to be the nominee because I think he is not as socialist as the other Democrats, and that the Republicans will stand up to him more than they have with Trump.

    DRJ (aede82)

  298. BuDah, As I said, I wish there were a better option.

    I’m not going to argue that Biden is objectively good. I’m arguing that he’s better then Trump. Warren, on the other hand, has a very similar trade outlook to Trump on Trade and would likely be far worse for free trade than he is because I think she’d be more competent at accomplishing her goals.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  299. 293.Besides the tired “Biden is not Trump” comments, has anyone here, who is voting for Biden, listed “specific reasons” why Biden is better than Trump?

    Conservatives on-the-outs; Lincoln Project-types and the ‘old guard’ at NR- in that famed ‘no-to Trtump- issue from a few years back, says it all. They may try but it’s really just bitter angst that they no longer control the party agenda/narrative. They’re on the outs; their opinions just don’t matter any more; the tail no longer wags the dog. They’re suddenly on the bottom of the deck. But unlike Rockefeller Republican-types, who stuck w/t GOP for decades, these ‘Reaganesque Rejects’ are just bitter and want to take their ball and go home. Reagan apologist George Will is a classic example. He’s supports Biden. Hilarious. Powell supports Biden. Kasich support Biden. The rejected list goes on and on. Their ‘my way or the highway’ attitude is going no where. So they hit the road.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  300. Non strongman Biden:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UXA–dj2-CY

    Well… son-of-a-bitch..

    BuDuh (8aff36)

  301. The rest of your list has nothing to do with policy or the betterment of the American citizens. Just personality gripes. I wonder what Clarence Thomas has to say about the new and improved non wanna be strongman Biden.

    BuDuh (8aff36) — 8/27/2020 @ 7:58 am

    Good to know that you want a Big Government and don’t care if it’s corrupt.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  302. I wanted Biden to be the nominee because I think he is not as socialist as the other Democrats, and that the Republicans will stand up to him more than they have with Trump.

    The answer to my question would be a comparison of Biden and Trump and determining who is not as socialist as the other.

    BuDuh (8aff36)

  303. #304, You’re either trolling or you have no idea what you’re talking about.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  304. Time, are you saying the Dems have a history of running a non-corrupt Big Government?

    BuDuh (8aff36)

  305. He sounds like a breath of fresh air.

    Not if you live close to a Delaware DuPont plant. 😉

    __________

    @296. No. He’s not. He’s a half century of pond scum that thrives only I Swamps– and Hollywood:

    https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/499065-lies-damned-lies-and-the-truth-about-joe-biden

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  306. It is more likely that you are trolling with your strongman concern that fell apart with one quick YouTube.

    BuDuh (8aff36)

  307. I answered your question, Buduh, and thenI went further in commenting why I prefer Biden to other Democrats.

    DRJ (aede82)

  308. DCSCA, ignoring my questions, I see. I expected that.

    DRJ (aede82)

  309. # 300

    Opposition to corruption , competence, and authoritarianism has nothing to do with the betterment of the lives of American citizens?

    You are kidding, right?

    Appalled (1a17de)

  310. I apologize for distracting from DRJ’s valid question that DCSCA has yet to answer.

    I show myself out.

    BuDuh (8aff36)

  311. Appalled! I really picked a good time to leave.

    BuDuh (8aff36)

  312. @312. Answered for months. You just don’t like what you hear and are seeing.

    You and George Will should do lunch. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  313. His is a Diet Coke world.

    yes, yes, mr. president donald trump, whose evangelical supporters had to take a crash course in the difference between adultery and polyandry this past week, likes his beverages the way he likes his women

    cold and artificial

    nk (1d9030)

  314. No, you have never said you prefer President Haley to President Trump now and explained why Nikki would be a better leader than Trump.

    DRJ (aede82)

  315. @314. See #303/#309. No loyal Republican or true conservative would vote for Plagiarist JoeyBee. Desperate, on-the-outs-agenda manipulators will.

    Jonah Goldberg will have to go out and get a real job now. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  316. I’m not voting for Biden, but he is less unfit than Trump cognitively, temperamentally and morally.
    Biden reads, Trump doesn’t.
    Biden better understands the Constitution, Trump either hasn’t read it or doesn’t understand it.
    Biden lies less than Trump by orders of magnitude.
    Trump is professionally and personally corrupt, Biden way less so.
    You could replace “Haley” with “Biden”, which is why she’d be a better commander-in-chief than Trump.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  317. Anybody here know of any instance of Trump associating with any woman who could tell him “No” or not willing to sell him her “Yes”? Raise your hands! Is Nikki that kind of woman, DCSCA?

    Leaving aside that we don’t know whether she, herself, can tolerate the doses of Dramamine she would need to take, would Trump himself even consider her for a single minute?

    Now, if you were talking about Kristi Noem …

    nk (1d9030)

  318. @318. You haven’t been paying attention. She should be on the ticket. Bob-the-hair, let a little grey set in, and she’s perfect for the gig. But radio-talk-show-Pence was good last night.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  319. You also opposed Jeb!, Cruz, Rubio, Kasich, other Republicans except possibly Huckabee, as well as Biden and most Democrats. The only person left is your guy Trump.

    Why is he your guy? I get he eliminates conservatism, which is an astounding admission in itself, but what else does he do that YOU LIKE? Or are you a single issue anti-conservative voter?

    DRJ (aede82)

  320. Being VP is not the same thing. Who isn’t paying attention here?

    DRJ (aede82)

  321. The objective is to neuter the modern ideological conservative movement.

    For that alone, Donald Trump has been a God-send.

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  322. Time, are you saying the Dems have a history of running a non-corrupt Big Government?

    BuDuh (8aff36) — 8/27/2020 @ 8:06 am

    You appear confused about how relative comparisons works.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  323. @324. See 325. Pay attention to that– the goal. It should be well contained by 2024.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  324. My impression is that you embrace the showmanship of politics more than the policies. That is what you mean by pragmatism, which isn’t what pragmatism is at all. Trump will always be the winner in that game. Nikki is your idea of his Vanna.

    DRJ (aede82)

  325. So you are a single issue voter who thinks Nikki Haley is the best choice to continue Trump’s legacy? Why not one of the Trump children, with Daddy Donald governing from behind the curtains?

    DRJ (aede82)

  326. See #303.

    It’s simply glorious. And long overdue.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  327. @328, I thought his stuff about Biden was more a comedy performance than anything else.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  328. @Time123 How would you square Biden administration being staffed with today’s far left Democratic people?

    Do you really think a Democrat control Congress passing the Green New Deal, Court-packing schemes, higher taxes, defunding police, etc… that Biden would veto any of them?

    whembly (c30c83)

  329. I think at this point, we need to take DCSCA literally but not seriously.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  330. Heh! How did we get from should the police have shot Jacob Blake to should Nikki Hailey run as VP, anyway? A+ for threadjacking, DCSCA!

    nk (1d9030)

  331. He’s a pro

    Dustin (5418f4)

  332. @Whembly,
    I don’t think Biden is going to be picking staffers from among the squad, or their superfans. I doubt Shaun King is going to get a Job in the Biden Admin for example. I also expect that when he does have left wing pics (which he will because he’s a Dem) they’ll at least be competent; as opposed to Omarosa, Bannon, the Mooch, Ben Carson at HUD (I like Ben as a person but don’t think he’s qualified for that job) Whitaker as AG etc.

    I think once they have the ability to pass party line legislation we’re going to find out that a lot of vulnerable DEMs are more moderate then expected. It will be a mirror image of health care reform on the right. I expect a Biden administration will be pushing not to pass unpopular legislation that will kill them in the mid term.

    I don’t think Biden, a senate traditionalist that’s been in Washington for so long that he thinks “I get along well with the segregationists” is sorta good; is going to appoint a 10nth or 11nth SCJ.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  333. I think at this point, we need to take DCSCA literally but not seriously.

    I dunno … Melania … Nikki … I think we should send him abroad.

    nk (1d9030)

  334. 328.My impression is that you embrace the showmanship of politics more than the policies.

    Reaganoptics?!

    LOL

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  335. Dang! Forgot the “… wait for it …”: I think we should send him … wait for it … abroad.

    nk (1d9030)

  336. @337. Zsa Zsa, Eva– they were from abroad. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  337. A vote for Plagiarist JoeyBee makes a President Harris a near certainty.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  338. I thought DCSCA was more of a Bernie Bro, and this may be based on my 2016 memory. It’s been a rough week so I could be wrong and I apologize if so.

    But the idea is that if you have to have either Hillary or Trump, and you want a true blue democratic socialist, you go for Trump, because his predicted failure will push the overton window left. Same reason a lot of nevertrumpers preferred Hillary to Trump redefining and potentially ruining the GOP. Who knows. DCSCA is right that it’s better to focus on the next few elections though. Things change too fast.

    I don’t see how I vote for Biden, because the movement around him is really bad. I do think it’s obvious Biden’s a better person than Trump. Yes even though he plagiarized a paper in law school. Everyone makes serious mistakes and it’s easy to judge, especially politicians, but some people just seem bad. Trump’s one of those people and Biden isn’t. It’s the difference between cheating and sabotaging someone else. Neither are OK, but there is a difference.

    Dustin (5418f4)

  339. Conservatives really ought to jut focus on 2024, back Nikki for that run and concentrate on getting their treasured Righties on the SCOTUS w/Trump.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  340. @342. Nah. More a Rockefeller Republican-type. But that dates me.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  341. makes a President Harris a near certainty.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/27/2020 @ 8:43 am

    Maybe. She legitimately represents what the democrats are all about, better than Biden does. She’s also who Trump supporters want the democrats to be (your own argument kinda shows why, it’s scary to imagine for a lot of people).

    The more Trump’s faction runs the GOP, the more conservatives vote in Democratic primaries, so it is important to the left that they don’t win too much. It’s like gerrymandering. You want all the right of center voters in the GOP if you’re a democrat, up to the point where the democrats still win major elections. If the democrats become a dominant party, people like Biden win the primaries instead of people like Harris.

    Dustin (5418f4)

  342. @342. Nah. More a Rockefeller Republican-type. But that dates me.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/27/2020 @ 8:48 am

    My mistake. You did tell me to watch Bloomberg.

    Dustin (5418f4)

  343. @337. See #325, nk. It has broad implications.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  344. @336

    @Whembly,
    I don’t think Biden is going to be picking staffers from among the squad, or their superfans.

    I do. Hell, just look at the bills passed by the House now. Only reason the Senate kills them is that Senate Republicans abides by the 60th cloture vote to bring bills to the floor. Democrat Senators are ON RECORD stating that they’ll get rid of that 60th cloture vote requirement (aka filibuster). The current crop of Democrat leadership and the loud insane lefties will all be gunning for important positions in the Biden administation. And I don’t think he’ll be able to say no to them.

    I doubt Shaun King is going to get a Job in the Biden Admin for example.

    Shaun King is a fraudulent race huckster.

    I also expect that when he does have left wing pics (which he will because he’s a Dem) they’ll at least be competent; as opposed to Omarosa, Bannon, the Mooch, Ben Carson at HUD (I like Ben as a person but don’t think he’s qualified for that job) Whitaker as AG etc.

    How is that a good thing?

    Competency + radical lefty agendas = bad, bad things happens

    I think once they have the ability to pass party line legislation we’re going to find out that a lot of vulnerable DEMs are more moderate then expected. It will be a mirror image of health care reform on the right. I expect a Biden administration will be pushing not to pass unpopular legislation that will kill them in the mid term.

    I don’t think Biden, a senate traditionalist that’s been in Washington for so long that he thinks “I get along well with the segregationists” is sorta good; is going to appoint a 10nth or 11nth SCJ.

    Time123 (dba73f) — 8/27/2020 @ 8:37 am

    whembly (c30c83)

  345. 329.So you are a single issue voter who thinks Nikki Haley is the best choice to continue Trump’s legacy.

    ??? You just don’t get it. He has no ‘legacy.’ He is a transient; a bridge to some place–or no place. But if you need to pin a “legacy” on him, it is that he is successfully neutering the modern ideological conservative movement.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  346. Whembly, Patterico just did a new post that I think provides a good illustration of what I mean when i talk about competence and the basic functions of government. why not move this there?

    Also, i disagree about Shaun King, I think he’s more of a dishonest, dirty, demagogue. I feel strongly about this because I like alliteration. 😉

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  347. haley started this string of capitulations, by identifying one tweeker, as representative of all southerners, that has ended up in kenosha, she didn’t intend it, but that’s not enough anymore,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  348. @345. She’s a minor league opportunist.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  349. I understand. You want the GOP Establishment back, the Establishment that backed Trump because they know he (like them) wouldn’t buck the status quo and would always care about lining their pockets.

    DRJ (aede82)

  350. the turtle, no he’s been nearly useless, on any major agenda item, not as much as burr in the saddle, but quite nearly, same with murkowski collins et al,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  351. I am not saying you support those goals, DCSCA, but I think you support people who have those goals.

    DRJ (aede82)

  352. Sean King said it was ok to deface Churches because they are all white, or some such carp, lo and behold that taboo was breached, dylan roof was an open and shut death multiple penalty case, yet five years later, he’s still not been punished,

    Lindsay is like those stuffed animals, he doesn’t really do anything but the bare minimum,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  353. Shaun King? Talcum X? Who cares what he says? Who cares if he even exists?

    nk (1d9030)

  354. JVW @270-
    Rip Murdock, you have your predilection for posting long comments that are copy-and-pastes from various news sources. That’s fine as far as it goes, but you oftentimes choose pretty questionable sources which don’t really do much to add credibility to whatever argument you are trying to make. For instance, your comment about Rittenhouse, pasted from BuzzFeed, contains this line…..

    I post what the media is writing about, and to generate feedback like your post. I am not trying to make an argument with my posts from media sources, and I don’t necessarily agree with is being said in the articles. It’s news that some believe Blake was innocent, but it’s not something I necessarily believe (its been clearly established that there were warrants out for him, but I don’t think shooting seven times in the back was necessary).

    I post my opinions below the articles in question in italics, so there is no question what is my opinion versus the article’s point of view. If you disagree, that is fine, I’m not asking that you agree with the media’s portrayal of a story. But in this case a certain part of the media (and protesters) view Blake as innocent.

    Thanks for your comment.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  355. Oops… sent too early.

    I think once they have the ability to pass party line legislation we’re going to find out that a lot of vulnerable DEMs are more moderate then expected. It will be a mirror image of health care reform on the right. I expect a Biden administration will be pushing not to pass unpopular legislation that will kill them in the mid term.

    I have zero expectation of that.

    Democrats will be so gleeful once back in power, they’re going to go full bore to reshape the government. Particularly packing the SCOTUS. We might see a DC and Puerto Rico statehood giving Democrats 4 more near permanent Senators. (although, I’m open for Puerto Rico statehood… they need to decide if they want to join the US or be their own country)

    I don’t think Biden, a senate traditionalist that’s been in Washington for so long that he thinks “I get along well with the segregationists” is sorta good; is going to appoint a 10nth or 11nth SCJ.

    Time123 (dba73f) — 8/27/2020 @ 8:37 am

    He’s going to do whatever the party leadership will push him on.

    We were lucky during the Obama years that both parties weren’t interested in doing away with the Senate filibuster. Just look at how hard it was for Obamacare to be passed… large consequential policies like that would become the norm w/o the filibuster and Obama won’t veto anything. But, now, we have multiple Democrat leaderships expressing support to drop the filibuster when they win the Senate (not if, when… GOP won’t have control forever).

    A Biden administration would likely mean full Democrat controlled Congress.

    Biden won’t dare veto anything out of Congress. ESPECIALLY when his own VP is one of the MOST liberal/leftist Senator on the record.

    whembly (c30c83)

  356. because he broke the taboo, and we saw here how the burning of st. johns church was minimized, those ‘clinging to our god, and our guns,’ note the signs,

    now we have creole obama, he comes from the same district, borrowing the can of kerosene from keith ellison,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  357. Biden is already forming a government. Here’s what his Cabinet could look like.
    ……
    Biden’s White House and his Cabinet would likely lean on his connections from the Obama administration, including institutionalists who are palatable to centrist Democrats. But in the same way Biden shifted left on policy in recent months in response to the pandemic, he is also taking advice from the progressive wing of the party.

    Interviews with more than a dozen Democrats familiar with his transition process describe an effort by his campaign to assemble a center-left amalgamation of personnel designed to prioritize speed over ideology in responding to the coronavirus and the resulting economic ruin. Think Susan Rice, but also Elizabeth Warren. Pete Buttigieg, but also Karen Bass.
    ……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  358. Trump’s goal if he has a second term is to get rid of conservatives who might inconsistently stand up to him, right, DCSCA?

    DRJ (aede82)

  359. @353. It is back- more or less.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  360. Rip wants to blog. I don’t blame him. It is fun.

    DRJ (aede82)

  361. @362. Is it? See who he’d appoint to SCOTUS.

    @361. Hillary was measuring the drapes, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  362. Good Lord, JoeyBee is literally doing his ‘Max Headroom’ routine w/Andrea Michell on MSNBC as I type this.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  363. Tucker Carlson suggests teen charged in Kenosha protester killings had to ‘maintain order when no one else would’
    ……
    ……Tucker argued that the teen’s actions were understandable after days of chaos.

    “Are we really surprised that looting and arson accelerated to murder?” Carlson said. “How shocked are we that 17-year-olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?”

    Carlson’s comments drew swift and intense backlash online, with many calling once again for advertisers to drop the host, who has recently been assailed for past bigoted statements and who took a vacation in July after his former top writer was outed for racist and misogynistic posts.
    ……
    Carlson is far from the only right-wing personality to openly defend — and even praise — Rittenhouse. As The Washington Post’s Philip Bump reported, Ann Coulter said Rittenhouse should be her president, and a Turning Point USA contributor called his actions a “justified shooting.” Former Major League Baseball player Aubrey Huff tweeted early Thursday that Rittenhouse is a “national treasure.”
    ……
    See also:
    Ann Coulter Gets Destroyed For Tweeting She Wants Accused Kenosha Double Murderer Kyle Rittenhouse ‘As My President’

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  364. . Begin with Blake refusing to comply with lawful orders.

    There’s a claim out there that a policeman had told him to “drop the knife” but he didn’t have any
    knife in his hand to drop.

    He had fought police others say.

    This is clearly a case of bad police work or else the police wouldn’t take two days or more to explain.

    His ex-girlfriend or her parents had called the police on him.

    Sammy Finkelman (86c6e0)

  365. I am pretty sue that I am not the only one who has seen this already. Just as there are more Rep Trump supporters who are silent than vocal; there are more Democrat Trump supporters who are even more likely to be silent than vocal. This is example where anonymity mitigates social pressure.

    felipe (023cc9)

  366. Could Joe Biden do this for Ray-Bans?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zYqFaygkGU

    No.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  367. This is example where anonymity mitigates social pressure.

    A strategy I have suggested is to vote for him, then lie about it. I doubt I will use that strategy, but you never know.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  368. Blake’s last words:

    “Oh sure ‘your’e gonna shoot’! Like a white cop is going to shoot an unarmed black man. Let’s see what I have in the bag on my seat!”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.8919 secs.