Patterico's Pontifications

5/31/2020

Sunday Music: Bach Cantata BWV 34

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 12:01 am



It is the Day of Pentecost. Today’s Bach cantata is “O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe” (O eternal fire, o source of love):

Today’s Gospel reading is John 20:19-23:

Jesus Appears to His Disciples

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

The text of today’s piece is available here. It contains these words, which depict the Holy Spirit as a flame:

O eternal fire, o source of love,
ignite our hearts and consecrate them.
Let heavenly flames penetrate and surge over us,
we wish, o Highest, to be Your temple,
Ah, may our souls be pleasing to you in faith!

. . . .

Peace upon Israel.
Thank the exalted wondrous hands,
give thanks, God has considered you.
Indeed, His blessing works with power,
to send peace upon Israel,
peace upon you.

Happy listening! Soli Deo gloria.

59 Responses to “Sunday Music: Bach Cantata BWV 34”

  1. ‘I find those people repugnant and utterly untrustworthy. They can all go to hell.” – from your previous post

    It is God who has the power to condemn man to hell. When you condemn someone to hell, you usurp his judgement and substitute your own.

    Romans 2:1-5 ESV

    Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed

    Matthew 12:36 ESV

    I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

    1 Corinthians 4:5 ESV

    Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

    Romans 14:10 ESV / 30 helpful votes

    Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  2. God judges our souls and decides whether we go to heaven or hell, but we can judge each others’ conduct here on earth. Thus:

    Matthew 7:1-5 Jesus says, “Judge not, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

    I think this tells us that we can judge others here on earth but that we shouldn’t be hypocrites about it. We should clearly recognize our own faults as well as calling out others’ faults. Trump and his diehard supporters rarely if ever recognize his flaws.

    DRJ (15874d)

  3. My guess is Patterico regrets saying people can go to hell but he does not regret his criticism of Trump or his most ardent supporters. Patterico is not a hypocrite, and he never quits on doing the right thing.

    DRJ (15874d)

  4. You can criticize actions but condemning someone to hell is a bridge too far. That is clearly a sin.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  5. We all sin. I hope we all regret our sins and most seek forgiveness. Except Trump.

    DRJ (15874d)

  6. One must also repent and strive to do better.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  7. Many religions and denominations believe that but not all.

    DRJ (15874d)

  8. Trump is a Presbyterian and I think repentance and forgiveness are vital parts of their faith.

    DRJ (15874d)

  9. By the way, “Go to hell!” is a saying as well as a directive. My guess is Patterico meant the former since he did not capitalize Hell. So don’t be so quick to label him a sinner unless you are willing to revisit every pejorative you’ve said.

    DRJ (15874d)

  10. I did not mean it literally and apologize to anyone who genuinely took it that way. I am of course a sinner. I will try to do better.

    If that’s what it takes to get so many comments on a Sunday post, then, um …

    Patterico (115b1f)

  11. I have never condemned anyone to hell. And never will.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  12. @ 1,

    Since you believe that Patterico has sinned and have clearly taken offense as a result, then it is incumbent upon you to heed today’s text posted above:

    “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

    Because as you say: “One must also repent and strive to do better.”

    Dana (0feb77)

  13. In general, I’d prefer for these posts not to bring up things on the political threads, 1DaveMac. If you are looking to quote Scripture to criticize me for criticizing others, in the future I’ll ask you to do so on a political thread. Thanks.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  14. It is good to talk about God and what He wants us to do. Thank you for these posts!

    DRJ (15874d)

  15. I have never condemned anyone to hell. And never will.

    That is fantastic. You are clearly a better person than I am in this respect.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  16. And surely, 1DaveMac, you are aware of the instruction to remove the log out of our own eye, so that we can see clearly to remove the speck out of our brother’s eye, no? And you understand what that is saying about judging others, right?

    Dana (0feb77)

  17. I don’t have to label him a sinner, as we all are. That is the point. Those who claim to be morally superior are on dangerous ground. These are subjective human moral standards, not God’s. People should recognize this and be more cautious. Only God really knows a person’s heart and what their motives really are. I try to criticize actions but most of the time avoid claiming I know someone’s motives, but I often fail when I get angry. Over time this should happen less frequently.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  18. I have never condemned anyone to hell. And never will.

    What was the purpose of that comment if not to portray yourself as morally superior?

    DRJ (15874d)

  19. I am not a Biblical scholar and my faith is a work in progress but I hope we can approach this discussion with justice, mercy and faithfulness, not like a competition.

    DRJ (15874d)

  20. Weaponizing scripture.

    Dana (0feb77)

  21. Just stating a fact. You are assuming a motive that is not there. I also don’t go around claiming I am morally superior. Go look at my posts. That is a failing of many Christians to claim moral superiority. It does not help in fulfilling the great commission. Jesus said “By their fruits you shall know them.” Criticize actions. Don’t pretend to know someone’s motives unless they tell you.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  22. “Just stating fact” suggests … something. What is your point? Should we list and compare sins?

    DRJ (15874d)

  23. Thinking about this topic, I prefer to avoid quoting scripture on the other parts of the Blog. It will come off as preaching and end up defeating the purpose of the post.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  24. Thinking about this topic, I prefer to avoid quoting scripture on the other parts of the Blog. It will come off as preaching and end up defeating the purpose of the post.

    Your preference is your preference, but I have made *my* preference about these posts clear, and to the extent our preferences clash, yours are going to have to give way because I run the blog and you don’t. So your choices are to quote Scripture for the purposes of criticizing people elsewhere or not do it at all. What I don’t want is for that to happen on these posts again. I’d prefer it not to happen at all, but I’m laying down that preference as a rule only for these posts.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  25. I don’t want to talk politics on these posts, but it’s done now and I would like an answer. Or we can drop politics and talk about the basic scriptural issues in the Gospel or in Matthew.

    DRJ (15874d)

  26. 1DaveMac (4cc9b4) — 5/31/2020 @ 10:46 am

    What’s wrong with preaching? Especially when it is done in all humility, charity, and faithfullness.

    felipe (023cc9)

  27. Good decision by our host and I agree with it,, so ignore my last comment. But I think there are interesting things to talk about here. The Holy Spirit is one, and the “Judge not” lesson is another.

    DRJ (15874d)

  28. I agree with Patterico, in whose “home” we meet, to whom we owe respect and thankfulness for this space. Patterico, who apologized to you, 1DaveMac, and has shown you respect, deserves no less from you.

    felipe (023cc9)

  29. Patterico, who has apologized to you, 1DaveMac, and has shown you respect, deserves no less from you.

    Edited for clarity.

    felipe (023cc9)

  30. DaveMac, you say you don’t assume motives but you are assuming a motive to Patterico’s words. You treat it as literal but isn’t it equally possible he meant it as “I’m done with you?”

    felipe is right.

    DRJ (15874d)

  31. So I guess I need to explain myself here. I hold Christians to a higher standard than non Christians. It rubbed me the wrong way for Christians to condemn people to hell when scripture is very clear on the subject. This is why so many non Christians despise us because of a “do as I say and not as I do” attitude. Patterico saw may point and accepted it as such. I am satisfied and take him at his word that he will try to do better. That is all that one can ask. I always try to be transparent, and what you see is what you get. I don’t have any hidden agendas and I am not passive aggressive. If I don’t like something. I will say so and tell you exactly why. You can ask me for a motive and I will generally tell you what it is, but it is not guaranteed, I may think your accusation is not worthy of a response.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  32. I will give you an example of bias and motivation I readily confess to, and most probably already know. I consider the legal profession corrupt and unethical and am biased against them. The environment a Christian lawyer operates in is a very difficult one. Especially prosecutors who are exposed to a lot of evil. Lawyers have a higher burden of proof, before I can respect them. There are lawyers and judges I respect but it takes a while.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  33. Sorry if the following is a little unctuous, but a scriptural admonition that has often proved useful for me is, paraphrasing, look not at the mote in your brother’s eye but at the beam in your own. I have certainly thought, said and done plenty of things that were wrong and for which I need but do not deserve forgiveness, yet hope to get it anyway.

    So did Patterico, or virtually anyone who comments here, say something in a previous post that was intemperate or they should not have said? Probably, but so what? One of the great messages of Christianity is that, almost no matter what you’ve done, you can repent and, starting now, live in the hope of ultimately receiving forgiveness. Or maybe you receive it immediately but, being human, sin again five minutes later and need to repent again, etc., ad infinitum. But anyway, if God is going to extend that great gift to all of us, it can’t hurt to try to extend it to each other.

    RL formerly in Glendale (40f5aa)

  34. Patterico has been posting these Bach cantatas and accompanying gospel readings on a regular basis since October 29, 2017, as best as I can determine. We don’t need some Trumpkin jackleg trolling us about Christianity, either Patterico’s or ours, with isolated quotes from Scripture.

    Personally, I think Patterico and DRJ have been too patient with the troll. My inclination when I see wolves in sheep’s clothing falsely mouthing Scripture is to send them to the shearing shed.

    nk (1d9030)

  35. 34. Personally, I’m a big believer in the Irish Holy Trinity:

    Religion

    Sex

    Politics

    The three things you don’t talk about in an Irish drinking establishment.

    Gryph (08c844)

  36. Generally speaking, I like Bach, but sometimes he’s a little overblown for the mood I’m in. Oddly, there are some video game soundtracks that I find very relaxing when even classical music is too over the top.

    If you are ever in Vienna, Austria on a Sunday, though, you should definitely attend a Bach heavy mass, it sounds heavenly and is a GREAT experience (um, don’t go to communion if you aren’t Catholic).

    Nic (896fdf)

  37. If you want a really overblown Pentecost hymn, Google up a video of Part I of Mahler’s Eighth Symphony. The text is a medieval Latin hymn written for Pentecost.

    Kishnevi (c8a946)

  38. Mahler’s 8th is pretty operatic, but Bach’s music itself really has an excessive flourishes rococo vibe that puts it over the top IMO.

    Nic (896fdf)

  39. One of the great messages of Christianity is that, almost no matter what you’ve done, you can repent and, starting now, live in the hope of ultimately receiving forgiveness. Or maybe you receive it immediately but, being human, sin again five minutes later and need to repent again, etc., ad infinitum. But anyway, if God is going to extend that great gift to all of us, it can’t hurt to try to extend it to each other.
    RL formerly in Glendale (40f5aa) — 5/31/2020 @ 1:03 pm

    Very well said. Saint Paul lived in “fear and trembling” asking the Lord to remove “this thorn” from his side. Whether or not the thorn was concupiscence or not, we can all take comfort that the Lord’s grace is sufficient, not just for Saint Paul, but us as well.

    felipe (023cc9)

  40. #34 Trumpkin jackleg, troll? So much for the insults policy. Are we now free to insult nk? What is the policy here?

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  41. Alinsky Rule 4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”

    nk (1d9030)

  42. Patterico and DRJ, I feel that since I was not addressing the troll personally but was, instead, rendering my opinion of him fairly and honestly to you and the other commenters, that it was not a violation of the no personal insults policy.

    nk (1d9030)

  43. Ok. Call me crazy, but am I the only one who thinks DaveMac is beginning to sound like Ragspierre in #40?

    felipe (023cc9)

  44. Sensational performance on both tunes. Those kids have some pipes. And the venue is unreal.

    mg (8cbc69)

  45. @44 if you ever end up anywhere that used to be the Austro-hungarian empire, that is What Churches Look Like. It’s amazing.

    Nic (896fdf)

  46. So much for the insults policy. Are we now free to insult nk? What is the policy here?

    You seem unhappy here. There are other blogs if this one makes you unhappy.

    Happy Sunday.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  47. I am sorry you are biased against lawyers. Maybe it would be better to seek companionship with people you feel better about, DaveMac.

    DRJ (15874d)

  48. But I hope you will reconsider your views.

    DRJ (15874d)

  49. #47 I am not afraid of a little confrontation. It is a good thing to force people to defend their position in a reasonable fashion. It guards against confirmation bias, which appears to be rampant among some posters here. So are you going to respond to nk and his characterization of me. Is he making a correct statement with regard to insults on this site?

    #48 That is a good summary of Jesus Teaching. That’s why given time I can respect lawyers as individuals. The legal profession, not so much. The Bible teaches repentance and a desire to be more like Jesus. This translates into a culture of continuous improvement, which I see very little of in the legal profession.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  50. Also, I have learned some things about law and legal practice on this site. Not as much as on some other sites, but on the margins I feel some posters here give honest responses to honest questions instead of acting like sarcastic asshats all the time. It is good practice to defend my positions and I am better able to do battle with lawyers I disagree with in the future. :-)

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  51. I see you as a linear thinker, maybe an engineer? I think it is good to have commenters from different backgrounds. I also agree insults don’t help earn respect. Did it occur to you that your comments calling our profession “corrupt and unethical” started the insults?

    DRJ (15874d)

  52. Not helping, DaveMac.

    DRJ (15874d)

  53. There was a commenter here named Dmac. I don’t think you are the same but typing your name reminded me of him. Interesting, nice guy.

    DRJ (15874d)

  54. #51 possibly, but that is not aimed at any specific individual, but at practices within the profession that I see as contradictory to the claims of respecting the so called rule of law. It would be better to argue against the claim rather than to hurl insults.

    #52 what specifically is not helping? #50?

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  55. I think professionals can seem heartless when they are really just focusing on the technical or professional side of their crafts. Doctors aren’t unethical or heartless when they focus on the medicines surgeries, etc., instead of telling patients how sorry they are for their pain and suffering. Those are the ethics of their profession. NASA engineers aren’t unethical or corrupt for analyzing the Challenger’s o-ring problems, nor are Boeing’s engineers when they focus on why planes crashed instead of the people who die in those crashes. Lawyers who focus on the legal issues instead of only the results are not unethical or corrupt, either.

    I don’t know what your experiences have been. Maybe you have dealt with unethical, corrupt lawyers but you paint with a broad brush, DaveMac. You should expect push back — as a Christian especially, because I think most people in all walks of life try to do their best. It is the rare person who proudly proclaims his goals are to get even and use the law to hurt people.

    DRJ (15874d)

  56. #55 so you make interesting points, engineering and the military have regular after action reviews about what went wrong in a particular mission as well as what went right. They focus on how systems and concepts of operations can be improved and made more effective in the heat of combat. How do we deal with information overload. How do we make good decisions in the face of fear, uncertainty and doubt. Many of these systems, hardware, software and human decision makers interact to form a non-linear complex adaptive dynamic systems. These kinds of systems are extremely difficult to characterize and and manage. Similar complex systems are climate systems and economic systems. Any system with human decision makers or living things involved are automatically adaptive and complex. There are methods and techniques that allow design of workable systems in these kinds of environments. Legal systems can also be viewed in this fashion, but we are just getting started in understanding how this might work. Economics as a science is in it’s infancy compared to other disciplines. Social sciences are even more primitive in comparison. Justice is a subjective term. It would be an interesting exercise to get a group of lawyers together with other stakeholders to discuss the key performance parameters of what a well functioning legal system might look like. Consistency and Clarity are two measures of quality. There are others, but the biggest issue would be mediating among value judgements between competing ideologies. This is bound to be much worse than dealing with opinionated fighter pilots. The states could be good laboratories for exploring how to deal with these issues and the populations of each state make the final decisions in elections. This is an interesting thought experiment but I doubt it is doable because vested interests benefit too much from the current system. It would be nice if the legal profession could figure out how to overcome some of these barriers.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  57. This is such a great post and I figured it was referencing the deep divides in our communities, between police and protesters.

    Davemac/Christoph, your entry here to judge the author over and over, to relitigate a Trump post, was tedious and weak.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  58. 45
    went online and did some gazing at Austro-Hungarian architecture. Incredible, thanks, Nic.

    mg (8cbc69)

  59. @58 It is highly impressive. You are quite welcome.

    Nic (896fdf)


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