Patterico's Pontifications

5/18/2020

POTUS Announces He Is Taking Hydroxychloroquine As A Preventative Measure

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:54 pm



[guest post by Dana]

In spite of warnings by Dr. Fauci, and in spite of *FDA safety warnings issued in April, President Trump announced today that he has been taking hydroxychloroquine as a preventative medicine against the coronavirus. Apparently, the potential side effects on a 73-year old, overweight man with high blood pressure, and lack of actual evidence that it is effective as a preventative medicine did not matter in the end:

President Trump said Monday that he has been taking hydroxychloroquine, an antimalarial drug whose effectiveness against the coronavirus is unproven, for about a week and a half as a preventive measure, saying he had no symptoms of Covid-19.

“All I can tell you is, so far I seem to be OK,” he said, explaining that he takes a daily pill.

The president also said that, along with the daily dose of hydroxychloroquine, he has been taking a a daily dose of zinc and an initial dose of the antibiotic azithromycin. Studies have linked the combination of these drugs to an increase of cardiac arrests.

Dr. David Boulware of the University of Minnesota, who is overseeing a national trial to determine whether hydroxychloroquine can prevent infections, cautioned:

There are no data that pre-exposure prophylaxis is effective to prevent coronavirus. It may be. It may not be. We do not know. The only way I would recommend taking hydroxychloroquine is within a clinical trial.

Other doctors also cautioned against taking it:

“I think it’s a very bad idea to be taking hydroxychloroquine as a preventive medication,” said Dr. Eric Topol, a cardiologist and the director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute in La Jolla, Calif. “There are no data to support that, there’s no evidence, and in fact there is no compelling evidence to support its use at all at this point.”

Dr. David Maron, a cardiologist and the chief of the Stanford Prevention Research Center, said in an interview that in his opinion “the risk-benefit ratio doesn’t make sense.”

Further:

Dr. Steven E. Nissen, the chief academic officer of the The Miller Family Heart, Vascular & Thoracic Institute at the Cleveland Clinic, said hydroxychloroquine was “not an innocent therapy,” adding that he had treated a number of patients who developed a life-threatening arrhythmia, which the drug can cause.

“This disorder can be lethal,” Dr. Nissen said. “My concern would be that the public not hear comments about the use of hydroxychloroquine and believe that taking this drug to prevent Covid-19 infection is without hazards. In fact, there are serious hazards.”

Clearly, all medical practitioners are not on the same page with regard to using hydroxychloroquine as a preventative medication for the coronavirus:

Asked if the White House doctor recommended he begin taking hydroxychloroquine, Trump demurred.

“I asked him what do you think, he said, ‘Well if you’d like it,’ ” the President told reporters.

The President’s physician, Navy Cmdr. Sean Conley, alluded in a memo released Monday night to Trump’s personal valet testing positive two weeks ago for coronavirus. While Conley didn’t say directly that Trump started taking hydroxychloroquine in response to the valet testing positive, the timing mentioned by Trump and the positive test match up.

“After numerous discussions, he and I had regarding the evidence for and against the use of hydroxychloroquine, we concluded the potential benefit from treatment outweighed the relative risks,” Conley wrote, adding that Trump has taken multiple tests for coronavirus — all negative — and remains symptom free.

“I’m not going to get hurt by it,” Mr. Trump said, claiming he was making the revelation in order to be transparent with Americans. “It has been around for 40 years for malaria, for lupus, for other things. I take it. Front-line workers take it. A lot of doctors take it. I take it.”

And although the released memo reveals that the doctor did discuss the use of hydroxychloroquine by the president, it did not confirm that he was indeed taking it. However, there is this tweet from the NYT:

The president’s decision to take the drug comes as no surprise, given his zealous promotion of it back in early April. He takes a drug that doctors warn against taking as a preventative medicine. He refuses to wear a mask in public, as recommended by medical experts. But I do wonder about the level of pressure Trump put on Conley to prescribe him the drug. Given the lack of evidence supporting its effectiveness as a preventative medication against the coronavirus, as well as the potential side effects on an older person who is not in the best physical shape, and in this case, just happens to be the President of the United States, I would have guessed that the White House physician would have not simply said no to any such request, but would have emphatically said Absolutely Not!.

Anyway, here are some brief clips of Trump explaining why he decided to take the drug:

As The Post notes, today was a “triple whammy” of good news, so why would Trump want to detract from that by making a controversial announcement? I don’t really know why, but I do know that know one steps on his own good press more effectively than Trump himself.

*The FDA did authorize emergency use of hydroxychloroquine against the coronavirus in March, even though there was little evidence that it could work.

–Dana

138 Responses to “POTUS Announces He Is Taking Hydroxychloroquine As A Preventative Measure”

  1. I had this in this post but took it out because it sounds nutty, but will post it here in the comments: What if Conley just wanted to shut Trump up, and prescribed him some innocuous vitamin and only *told him* that it was hydroxychlorine? It seems reckless of the doctor to prescribe him the actual drug and buck the warnings of so many of his colleagues, no?

    Dana (0feb77)

  2. Perhaps you saw the Tweet from CNN’s Oliver Darcy who just can’t fathom why Fox News invited two people with opposing viewpoints on the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine to debate the topic, rather than I suppose just instructing their viewership what to believe. He’s getting dunked on pretty thoroughly for that dumb take.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  3. I hadn’t seen that, JVW. Priceless!

    Dana (0feb77)

  4. Oh, for the love of Pete.

    Nic (896fdf)

  5. This reminds me of the guy who jumped out of a 50 story window. About halfway down someone opened a window and yelled how you doing? The guy yelled back as he flew by so far ok! If he gets the wuhan virus or bad side effects media will be happy if he doesn’t media will be sad.

    asset (b6ffdb)

  6. This, plus his reputed four hours of sleep per night, combined with a body that would make Bill Clinton (even at his fast-food peak) look like a triathlete, should serve him well.

    norcal (a5428a)

  7. hahahaahahgahahahahhahg

    Someone is really screwing around with the simulation we’re living in.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  8. A Stunned Neil Cavuto Warns About Hydroxychloroquine After Trump Says He’s Taking the Drug: ‘What Have You Got to Lose? … Your Life’
    ……
    Fox News’ Neil Cavuto was so shocked by President Donald Trump announcing he’s taking hydroxychloroquine that he took a few minutes to explicitly warn viewers about the risks of taking it.

    At one point the president asked “what have you got to lose,” but as Cavuto said, “A number of studies, those certainly vulnerable in the population have one thing to lose, their lives. A VA study showed that among a population of veterans in a hospital receiving this treatment, those with vulnerable conditions, respiratory conditions, heart elements, they died.”
    ….
    [Dr. Bob] Lahita [chairman of medicine at St. Joseph University Hospital] continued warning viewers about the serious risks, and at one point Cavuto just straight-up asked him, “The president says, ‘What have you got to lose? It sounds like what you’re saying, you have a risk of losing your life if you do about the president just recommended.”

    “That’s correct,’ Lahita said. “Everything has a trade-off. And these drugs can be very dangerous. And if they don’t have any effect, there’s no reason to take them.
    …….

    Ripmurdock (bbf61d)

  9. nk (#20) has an alternative theory, with the same result:

    Anti-inflammatory treatment with hydroxychloroquine for 18 months does not slow the rate of decline in minimal or mild Alzheimer’s disease.

    Ripmurdock (bbf61d)

  10. I pity every POTUS. No matter what they do, they can do no right in the eyes of their most bitter detractors. If Trump never took HCQ, then it will be a call of “hypocrite;” when he does, under medical supervision, it is “fool!”

    felipe (023cc9)

  11. Well, when you got someone who is so vain and narcissistic that he would call down from his penthouse to his concierge doctor in a limousine and dictate his own physical condition–perfect health, the healthiest president ever!–why would anyone expect him to take the advice of actual doctors?

    Dana, I would accept that comment @1, because I find it hard to believe a physician, a Navy Commander, no less, would knowingly and willingly, in direct contradiction to the Hippocratic oath, prescribe a drug, or the cocktail you describe, with known potentially lethal side effects to a patient.

    But then I think of Elvis. Did you know that when his morbidly obese bodyy was found dead, he had over 80 pharmaceuticals in his system? His doctor, George Nichopoulos, would not deny him any prescription. He was Elvis Presley, and you didn’t say no to him.

    By the way, do know how Elvis got so morbidly obese? I mean, when he was young he was the pirturee of health, handsome, athletic. 30 years later, he was fat and out of shape.

    His favorite meal was one his mother prepared for him as a child: a sandwich on French bread, with bananas, mayonnaise, and peanut butter. (His version of the Big Mac.)

    Elvis never lost his voice though, I will give him that. Even when he was overweitht and mumbling his words, he never forgot a lyric or sang out of key, and he never played to an empty seat all the way to his last performance.

    Nichopoulos killed him though, by prescribing him whatever pharmaceuticals he asked for, uppers, downers. Priscilla said that his addiction to drugs began when he was in the army. They would give him methamphetamine to keep him awake on late night posts. That may be true, but it does not excuse Nichopoulos from over-prescribing him drugs.

    Trump is obese, way overweight. That’s why he wears loose fitting uits so that no one will knoew it. He’s also out of shape. He can’t even walk a golf course, always takes a cart.

    He also cheats at golf, which is why prominent PGA golfers won’t play with him, even though he is President of the United States.

    He suffers from high blood pressure, and he’s 73 years old.

    No real doctor, sworn to the Hippocratic oath, would prescribe the drugs to a patient in his condition.

    But Elvis had his doctor, and Trump has his. Give me the drugs I want, or you’re fired. That’s the pressure Conley is under. If he succumbed, it does not speak well of him as adoctor or a man, certainly not as a Naval Commander.

    Trump is obviously flailing. He believed hydroxychloroquine was the miracle drug that would get him out of this pandemic. He promoted it, spoke openly about it. Now that this malarial drug has been proven, in numerous scientific studies, to be ineffective for combatting novel coronavirus. he’s bragging about taking it!

    He might as well brag about injecting disinfectants or drinking bleash.

    Wait a minute, didn’t he just suggest that a few weeks ago?

    This obese, old man, with high blood pressure, has no clue. He is a danger to himself and others.

    It’s just one lie after another with this guy. I have always said he is a totl fraud.

    The latest death toll at RCP was 91,985+. The economy is in ruin, businesses are closing, unemployment is rising, markets are crashing. The stock market is falling, so say goodbye to your IRA or pension fund. The real estate market is dead, so say goodbye to your home equity.

    We’re already in the Greater Depression. People are dying, and the only thing Trump can come up with is, ask China? Blame Obama!

    Please. All this inept, incompetent and ignorant child-man is capable of is acussing others for his own failures.

    We’re in a pandemic and an economic crisis. We have no leaders to get us though these hard tiems.

    My remedy is cigarettes and alcohol.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaeLKhRnkhQ

    It is ironic that the name of the band is Oasis.

    Decadence, death, all around. And everybody having a good time.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  12. Well, when you got someone who is so vain and narcissistic that he would call down from his penthouse to his concierge doctor in a limousine and dictate his own physical condition–perfect health, the healthiest president ever!–why would anyone expect him to take the advice of actual doctors?

    GG, this sort of invective does no one honor.

    felipe (023cc9)

  13. In spite of warnings by Dr. Fauci, and in spite of *FDA safety warnings issued in April

    There is an obvious slander campaign going on against hydroxychloroquine, in that the FDA warning is carefully worded. The FDA warning can only be legitimately made to taking hydroxychloroquine, together with the antibiotic azithromycin, but Trump only took azithromycin once. What he’s taking daily is only hydroxychloroquine and zinc.

    Given the lack of evidence supporting its effectiveness as a preventative medication against the coronavirus, as well as the potential side effects on an older person who is not in the best physical shape, and in this case, just happens to be the President of the United States, I would have guessed that the White House physician would have not simply said no to any such request, but would have emphatically said Absolutely Not!.

    He wouldn;t say that because first of all, of course, he could seek out another physician, but also because there is counterevidence. The only thing really wrong there is the one-time dose of azithromycin, since he didn’t have any known infection, and if it supposed to be useful, it is supposed to be useful when there is a coronavirus infection, but overall, this looks like an attempt to take into account all opinions.

    The doctor gave him a one time dose of azithromycin as a concession (Trump didn’t understand the pointlessness of it) because a one time dose is not very likely to have any deleterious effec.

    As for Dr. Fauci and others, it is like what Barack Obama said: The curtain has been pulled back and we see the people in charge don’t know what they’re doing.

    (For example with first, it is no danger to the USA and then we see it is; and don’t wear masks and then yes wear masks; and the arbitrary 6-foot rule, and continuing to talk about hand washing, and the failure to give correct advice about ventilators)

    (You think he was talking about Trump?)

    The other part of Barack Obama’s criticism also apples to the experts, because according to Scott Gottlieb, the CDC which normally should act as a clearinghouse and recommend best practices, is mostly not doing that and doctors have to learn what works from social media and email and personal contacts.

    Now I think that the effect is weak, and to the extent it is useful, before exposure would logically be the best time, but he is probably not exposed. As for the dangers, this has been around for 40 years and it is not even listed as a side effect. And there is an obvious slander campaign against hydroxychloroquine. The FDA and other warnings are very carefully calibrated and mix it up with other drugs with which are taken instead or in combination.

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  14. The person Gayle King is interviewing on CBS This Morning isn’t giving her the answers she wants.

    (There is not an overwhelming case against it)

    He says a decision to take a drug is the among the most personal decisions you can make, and we don;t know the degree of exposure Trump had to the person(s) who tested positive, and there were some encouraging reports about hydroxychloroquine, and there is a clinical trial going on whose results aren’t in, and the fact is the earlier you treat the better and there is nothing for early in this disease, (remdisivor – sp? – is for later) but it shouldn’t depend on politics but on the what the data show.

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  15. I don’t really know why, but I do know that know one steps on his own good press…

    Dana, I suggest …I do know that no one steps on…

    Felipe, your are such a hall monitor!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  16. Dana (0feb77) — 5/18/2020 @ 10:58 pm

    It seems reckless of the doctor to prescribe him the actual drug and buck the warnings of so many of his colleagues, no?

    No, because the warnings are exaggerated, and there seems to a propaganda campaign against hydroxychloroquine, and for that matter, virtually anything at all. (there are actually a few other drugs used off label that are reported to have some effect.

    And the only hope is supposed to be a vaccine, and even there it is supposed to be impossible to get it it in less than a year or more.

    One result of all this discouragement, which is probably motivated because it is seen as a defense of the status quo – of the system we have for new drugs and devices – is that virtually nobody is paying attention to what Simon Jester was talking about, artificial antibodies; and there’s more than one company working on that . But that, if pushed, and approvals expedited, could be ready for use by September.

    Note: Trump is also taking zinc which is getting a little bit lost. One theory about hydroxychloroquine is that changing the pH of the blood (which hydroxychloroquine does) mostly
    works against this virus because it helps cells absorb zinc – but you have to have the zinc in the bloodstream first (and they didn’t test for zinc, like they could.)

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  17. @ felipe, #10:

    If Trump never took HCQ, then it will be a call of “hypocrite;”

    You know, I would never have thought to call him a hypocrite for not taking HCQ…if only because, given all the ill-advised and/or ill-informed comments he makes on a daily basis, I doubt I would have remembered.

    Demosthenes (7fae81)

  18. @ Sammy Finkelman, #18:

    No, because the warnings are exaggerated…

    May I see your medical degree, please? Or any credential that you possess in pharmaceuticals?

    Demosthenes (7fae81)

  19. Sorry, typo. Obviously my last comment should reference #16.

    Demosthenes (7fae81)

  20. Demosthenes (7fae81) — 5/19/2020 @ 4:37 am
    Indeed, Demos, to your credit.

    felipe (023cc9)

  21. There can also be a risk of sudden and lasting neuropsychiatric effects from the use of antimalarial quinolines:

    In susceptible individuals, these drugs act as idiosyncratic neurotoxicants, potentially causing irreversible brain and brainstem dysfunction, even when used at relatively low doses,” said Dr. Nevin. “This drug-induced dysfunction causes a disease of the brain and brainstem called quinoline encephalopathy, or quinism, which can be marked acutely by psychosis, confusion, and risk of suicide, and by lasting psychiatric and neurological symptoms.”

    “Symptoms of chronic quinoline encephalopathy include tinnitus, dizziness, vertigo, paresthesias, visual disturbances, nightmares, insomnia, anxiety, agoraphobia, paranoia, cognitive dysfunction, depression, personality change, and suicidal thoughts, among others, ” said Dr. Nevin. “Particularly among military veterans, in whom these drugs have been widely used for decades as prophylactic antimalarials, these symptoms can mimic and be mistaken for those of post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury.”

    Apparently this is not a common response although it describes it as impacting “a substantial minority.”

    DRJ (15874d)

  22. I pity every POTUS. No matter what they do, they can do no right in the eyes of their most bitter detractors. If Trump never took HCQ, then it will be a call of “hypocrite;” when he does, under medical supervision, it is “fool!”

    felipe (023cc9) — 5/19/2020 @ 3:26 am

    This is a good point. Obama generated a lot of bitterness and division. Trump is another few steps down the same road. Whoever the next prez is, millions will not give him a chance when he makes a great decision.

    There is an obvious slander campaign going on against hydroxychloroquine

    No Sammy. It’s a tricky medication that can be beneficial and can be harmful. Aspirin it isn’t. There is indeed a clear campaign on social media, but it’s from the same three sources, China, Iran, and Russia, that have been hacking, smearing, undermining the west for decades. The hatred of masks and vaccines, the pursuit of silly cures, ideas that I’ve seen you repeat, often sourced astonishingly weakly.

    My friend, a lot of good folks are falling for it.

    One theory about hydroxychloroquine is that changing the pH of the blood

    Michael Crichton was a great author for a while.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  23. SF: No, because the warnings are exaggerated…

    Demosthenes (7fae81) — 5/19/2020 @ 4:41 am

    May I see your medical degree, please? Or any credential that you possess in pharmaceuticals?

    It’s obvious.

    Not only are there are other sources, but if it was so dangerous, would they even support or allow a clinical trial?

    They maybe only want make a clinical trial easier to do. It’s easier to recruit patients for a clinical trial, and the trial is more valid, if there is no other way to get the drug except to take advntage of a 50% probability of getting it instead of a placebo.

    And look: The warning is also obviously very carefully written:

    The FDA is aware of reports of serious heart rhythm problems in patients with COVID-19 treated with hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, often <b in combination with azithromycin and other QT prolonging medicines….Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine have not been shown [like as if it was easy to show it by their standards or as if that meant ‘have been shown not to”] to be safe and effective for treating or preventing COVID-19…

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  24. Pelosi is getting a lot of good press calling Trump ‘morbidly obese’.

    Put aside that she’s ‘the bad guy’ to conservatives and the fringe left. That is the kind of politics that works now. Trump proved it. In 20 years our kids will inherit from us a country where if you speak about ideals and respect, you’ll be labeled “LOSER”. Not a damn thing any of us can do about it, us geeks on a blog talking about the news instead of on Tik-Tok.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  25. Trump should take more of it. A lot more.

    “You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough.”
    – William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

    Dave (1bb933)

  26. The recent clinical trial results were not positive, Sammy:

    Results from two new studies, including the first randomized controlled trial, are providing further evidence that the antimalaria drug hydroxychloroquine may not help COVID-19 patients.

    The two studies, published yesterday in BMJ, found that, when compared with standard treatment, the use of hydroxychloroquine did not increase the likelihood of virus elimination in Chinese patients with mild-to-moderate COVID-19, nor did it have any effect on reducing admissions to intensive care or death in French patients with more severe illness. Both studies also found a higher rate of adverse events in patients treated with the drug.

    The authors of both papers conclude that the results do not support the continued use hydroxychloroquine in these patients.

    DRJ (15874d)

  27. But it may help Trump because he believes in it, e.g., the placebo effect.

    DRJ (15874d)

  28. @ Sammy Finkelman, #23:

    like as if it was easy to show it by their standards or as if that meant ‘have been shown not to”

    Those standards are, of course, in place to protect people.

    From what little I understand of the specific terminology, “has not been shown to“ means that the medicine is, at best, ineffective as a treatment for a particular disease in the eyes of the medical community. At worst, it may pose some risk. But from the phrasing, I am confident that competent medical professionals have looked into it. If HCQ had not been investigated, I’m pretty sure the phrase would be “has not been tested against,” or something similar.

    In other words, my admittedly limited knowledge suggests that you are reading that phrase completely wrong. You seem to think that it means that, at worst, HCQ would not do a Covid patient any good. Instead, it actually seems to mean that not doing any good is the best-case scenario.

    Of course, I suppose it’s possible that those who hold higher ranks in the medical community are so politicized that they would forestall investigation into a promising and cheap treatment solely in order to hurt Trump’s election chances. And it’s also possible (as a coworker of mine asserted yesterday) that the medical-industrial complex is so corrupt they would sentence tens of thousands of Americans to death because they won’t make enough money off the sale of HCQ to justify prescribing it. I admit that I don’t have the expertise necessary to calculate the likelihood of either scenario. But then again, I doubt you do either.

    Demosthenes (7fae81)

  29. I’d like to be surprised that Duh Donald has a doctor who would prescribe a potentially dangerous drug to someone (ostensibly) with no symptoms.

    I’d like to be surprised, but I’m not. This is in keeping with a culture that T-rump has carefully created, a culture corrupt at its core as the personality who sits in the middle of it like a bloated spider. It…and he…is dangerous and toxic to America.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  30. mr. president donald trump, who is almost as much the president of The United States as he is Berenice the 13th Ptolemaic pharaoh, has a secret plan to combat the coronavirus

    when the astral hyperbolas are in conjunction and the house of Mars is in the condo share of Antares, he will step into the mystic tetragram with a bucket of fried chicken and a quart of chocolate pistachio ice cream and invoke the potent and puissant Covfefe with the sacred incantation

    “Toke a lid, smoke a lid, pop the mescalino! …Hop a hill! Pop a pill! For old Tim Benzedrino!”

    it probably won’t work

    nk (1d9030)

  31. It’s hard to believe Trump could ever get sick with such youthful, tanned skin and plentiful healthy golden locks of hair.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  32. I’m not sure I believe this. No one credible has stated unequivocally that Trump has been prescribed hydroxychloroquine. The note from his doctor says a number of things but doesn’t clearly say that Trump has been prescribed hydroxychloroquine.

    As far as the data goes none of the studies I’m aware of have shown that hydroxychloroquine is an effective treatment or preventive. But Trump lacks the mental fortitude to admit an error so I doubt he’ll ever give it up. It could also be that he doesn’t see a difference between a properly executed scientific study and an article on Info wars.

    Time123 (c9382b)

  33. It seems unwise to take medical advice from a morbidly obese pathological liar or our occasionally insightful but non-MD comment section denizen. I wish both would stop.

    (And Dave — I rea;ize you are trying to be optomistic in these difficult times, but this being Trump, chances are only 50-50 he’s actually taking the stuff.)

    Appalled (1a17de)

  34. His doctor may be giving him a placebo but that seems unlikely since his doctor is military and POTUS is Commander in Chief. Plus, I think it is medically unethical to deceive a patient by telling him he is getting Medicine X but giving him Medicine Y. Better to tell him he needs Medicine Y.

    My guess is Trump is taking the medicine because he wanted it, and the doctor complied and is watching him carefully. Or Trump is lying again.

    DRJ (15874d)

  35. President Trump said Monday that he has been taking hydroxychloroquine,

    President Trump said…! President Trump said…!
    Sigh! And on this blog, of all places. I could understand if it was RedState, but here? We are actually taking the orange at his word?

    nk (1d9030)

  36. One of the doctors in this interview suggested checking the pamphlet that comes with the drug to see how common cardiac events are caused by hydroxychloroquine:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3g9g6hsU9N8

    So I did:

    http://products.sanofi.ca/en/plaquenil.pdf

    The events don’t even rate a “rare” rating. They reside in the “unknown/not-known” category. How are the anti-hydroxychloroquine doctors allowed to say, with certainty, something so contrary to the information provided with the drug and not be challenged here?

    Hope you watch the entire video.

    BuDuh (bc7703)

  37. Of course, if Trump had come out strong AGAINST HCQ then all the Trump haters would be beating the drum for it. What an absurd situation! As Trump states, HCQ is used by MILLIONS and is almost 40 years old. OF course, there are potential side effects, there are protentional side effects from aspirin. He’s not doing it against doctor’s orders. His Doctor basically said “Meh, it couldn’t hurt”. Is HCQ-Zinc pack a preventative? Maybe. some say yes, some say no.

    But of course, this all proves that Trump is CRAZY!!! and spun into a negative. JUST LIKE IT ALWAYS IS. 96% negative MSM coverage.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  38. i’m currently taking a well-known antibiotic, that’s been around forever. Have you ever seen the list of its side effects? Its a page long and scary as hell. Every drug is a potential danger, its why we have doctors and we get monitored. I’m sure Trump knows what he’s doing.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  39. “May I see your medical degree, please? Or any credential that you possess in pharmaceuticals?”

    May we see yours? Specifically the one that touted a zinc-less course (normal practice was to almost ALWAYS use HCQ with zinc) in veterans for no other reason than to create bodies for your unthinking slander?

    “The events don’t even rate a “rare” rating. They reside in the “unknown/not-known” category. How are the anti-hydroxychloroquine doctors allowed to say, with certainty, something so contrary to the information provided with the drug and not be challenged here?”

    The docs are obviously doing it because they want to make money on alternative treatments they have monopolies on. The lefties are repeating it because they’re hateful people who don’t care how many people die or get financially ruined if it hurts Trump.

    There is no coexisting with such murderous liars.

    Zincfree World (b0d27b)

  40. He says he’s taking hydroxychlroquine daily. Why should we believe him? We only have his word for it. What’s that worth?

    John B Boddie (f44786)

  41. Also, I think the Texas doctor’s point.about the Drs who are adamantly against hydroxychloroquine treatment, is thought provoking. She wondered if any of the tv doctors are actually hands on with Covid patients like she is. She is giving a real time analysis of her treatment. If she was lying, how long would it really take for her to be exposed if the evidence was not on her side?

    If the media leaves her unscathed, then they are confident that the non-inquisitive will fall for arm-waiving over facts. You are lying to yourself if you think they wouldn’t destroy her if the facts were truly on their side. I personally think they are afraid to give her a platform to defend her findings.

    BuDuh (bc7703)

  42. nk (1d9030) — 5/19/2020 @ 5:35 am
    Dustin (d59cff) — 5/19/2020 @ 5:36 am
    I like your sense of humor.

    felipe (023cc9)

  43. Or Trump is lying again.
    DRJ (15874d) — 5/19/2020 @ 6:35 am

    I second that. As DR. House would say, “everybody lies!”

    felipe (023cc9)

  44. nk (1d9030) — 5/19/2020 @ 6:50 am

    I know, right? All these things should be handled with remote arms and behind a stout blast-shield.

    felipe (023cc9)

  45. BuDuh (bc7703) — 5/19/2020 @ 6:52 am

    Thanks for the link, BuhDuh, more info is better than less info.

    felipe (023cc9)

  46. I just would hope that he is also taking Vitamin C & D too. That we are all having such heated reactions is hilarious.

    If we went full Federalist and took away all the powers the Federal government should not have, we could have a clown be Emperor of the United States and not get our panties in a bunch.

    Nick Temple (ba9065)

  47. meanwhile Cuomo kills like bill sadler, and the press marvels, Wilhelm seems to be waiting for the zombies from I am legend,

    narciso (7404b5)

  48. I know I’m being a “chatty Cathy,” so what?

    rcocean (2e1c02) — 5/19/2020 @ 6:55 am

    Yeah, all of my prescription drugs warn me that of the dire possibilities, including death, that await me.

    felipe (023cc9)

  49. The over reaction about this is primo example of a Rorschach test.

    People have taken this med for years for auto-immune issues.

    There’s are existing regimens to take this prophylactically if you are traveling to malarial infested locations.

    Additionally, doctor does routinely prescribe medications off label.

    When taking medications, there are ALWAYS trade off that need to be considered… which is why it need to be prescribed by a doctor.

    FYI: There are studies out there showing the promise of this drug along with zinc:
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.02.20080036v1?fbclid=IwAR1NgQZ2TpEz5x858pJW9ub6pO_mC5z9GEmUCjGojk5JG5fNio3EGbDwg6k

    The addition of zinc sulfate did not impact the length of hospitalization, duration of ventilation, or ICU duration. In univariate analyses, zinc sulfate increased the frequency of patients being discharged home, and decreased the need for ventilation, admission to the ICU, and mortality or transfer to hospice for patients who were never admitted to the ICU. After adjusting for the time at which zinc sulfate was added to our protocol, an increased frequency of being discharged home (OR 1.53, 95% CI 1.12-2.09) reduction in mortality or transfer to hospice remained significant (OR 0.449, 95% CI 0.271-0.744). Conclusion: This study provides the first in vivo evidence that zinc sulfate in combination with hydroxychloroquine may play a role in therapeutic management for COVID-19.

    whembly (c30c83)

  50. If Trump didn’t lie, he wouldn’t have anything to say. He is an orange of very low quality. The Florida Citrus Growers Association should be embarrassed to have him in the state.

    nk (1d9030)

  51. Of course, if Trump had come out strong AGAINST HCQ then all the Trump haters would be beating the drum for it. What an absurd situation! As Trump states, HCQ is used by MILLIONS and is almost 40 years old. OF course, there are potential side effects, there are protentional side effects from aspirin. He’s not doing it against doctor’s orders. His Doctor basically said “Meh, it couldn’t hurt”. Is HCQ-Zinc pack a preventative? Maybe. some say yes, some say no.

    But of course, this all proves that Trump is CRAZY!!! and spun into a negative. JUST LIKE IT ALWAYS IS. 96% negative MSM coverage.

    rcocean (2e1c02) — 5/19/2020 @ 6:52 am

    Some say yes, others say that clinical trials show no benefit that would offset the risk. Can you take a few deep breaths, repeat “It’s not all about Trump.” and see the difference?

    I get it, you love Trump and feel pain when he’s not treated respectfully. But distilling every analysis down to whether it shows respect for trump is a deeply flawed worldview.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  52. “QT” is a measure of ventricular polarization of the cardiac muscle as measured in an EKG. The cardiac danger in taking hydroxychloroquine comes from lengthening a patient’s QT interval. Most individuals with this abnormality never show any signs or symptoms (gee, where have I heard that before?!), but there is a non-zero chance of fainting, hypoxic seizures, or even sudden cardiac death due to polymorphic tachycardia. Long QT Syndrome (LQTS) can be effectively treated in patients known to have it and prescribing drugs that can cause it (hydroxychloroquine and many others) will usually call for ongoing patient monitoring.

    Gryph (08c844)

  53. If I may add to the “is he lying” debate … The White House issued a letter from Trump’s doctor to prove that Trump is indeed taking the drug. Except that the letter doesn’t say he’s taking it, just that he and his dr discussed his taking it. So the “lying” column is looking pretty strong here.

    Kyle (a00aa2)

  54. What reason does Trump have to lie about it? How does he benefit from it? Because it has to benefit him directly to make it worth his time.

    Dana (0feb77)

  55. If anything, Trump has once again made himself the top story of the day, and not in a positive way. This would follow his typical pattern of behavior. Step on good news by throwing red meat out there. In this case, Trump is the red meat, and in typical fashion, he makes the news about him – whether based on something dumb or outrageous or simply not true, as long as it’s about him, and he is the center of attention, then he gets what he wants.

    Dana (0feb77)

  56. @55 Well… several Whitehouse staff tested positive.

    whembly (c30c83)

  57. POTUS spoxwoman @Alyssafarah confirms yes POTUS was prescribed and yes POTUS has been taking hydorxychloroquine.

    I wonder *how* she confirmed that he is taking the drug? Did she talk directly to Conley, did she see the prescription, exactly how did she “confirm” that this is true? P.S. Trump telling her he is taking it doesn’t count.

    Dana (0feb77)

  58. Trump did not take favorably to Fox News’s Neil Cavuto’s warning to viewers about taking hydroxychloroquine:

    Cavuto echoed the health community on Monday, citing multiple studies disproving Trump’s claims and cautioning viewers against using the drug as a virus treatment even if the president “says it’s OK.”

    Following the segment, Trump retweeted a message calling Cavuto an “asshole” and another one calling him “foolish and gullible.”

    “@FoxNews is no longer the same,” Trump wrote in a separate tweet, adding that he misses “the great Roger Ailes,” the former head of Fox who died in 2017 and resigned from the network after being accused of sexual harassment by multiple women.

    Dana (0feb77)

  59. I think Trump might lie about this to further bolster his earlier assertions that Hydroxychloroquine etc are effective drugs against Covid. If he doesn’t get Covid despite being exposed, he will give the credit to the drug and to himself for seeing its benefits so early.

    I think he might also lie by omission and not tell the public about the other things his doctors are doing to protect him and monitor him.

    But, I don’t think he is lying about this drug. I think he has surrounded himself with people who will do whatever he asks because he is the POTUS.

    DRJ (15874d)

  60. he was asked about it, he answered, as opposed to the phantom conversations that Sherman fellow publishes in vanity fair,

    narciso (7404b5)

  61. Like Nixon.

    DRJ (15874d)

  62. Speaking of whammies:

    The Hill
    @thehill

    Newsom says first responders would be first ones laid off if states don’t get federal assistance http://hill.cm/BeOugWH
    _

    harkin (8f4a6f)

  63. @BuDuh, #36:

    You know, I decided to take you up on your challenge to watch the video. Here’s what I learned:

    1) This interview was conducted with two doctors who were on the same side of the issue…which is to say, in favor of prescribing HCQ. So there’s no debate going on here. This is biased at the best, and propaganda at the worst.

    2) Clips were played of three doctors who did not agree with the consensus of the two interview subjects. They, and the journals and other medical professionals who agreed with them, were arguably Bulverized:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulverism

    3)

    One of the doctors in this interview suggested checking the pamphlet that comes with the drug to see how common cardiac events are caused by hydroxychloroquine

    I watched the whole interview, twice. Neither doctor “suggested checking the pamphlet.” One of the doctors did mention that “Looking at the package insert for Plaquenol…there is no cardiac monitoring prescribed by the FDA.” This is the closest thing in the interview to what you said. But it’s not what you said. So you mischaracterized the doctor’s remarks in a provable way.

    Demosthenes (c31dc7)

  64. it turns out john frye the resistance official in the treasury, lied to rowan farrow, about the accessibility of Michael Cohen’s records,

    narciso (7404b5)

  65. Trump’s special genius is to keep people talking about him. There is and never has been anyone better. That’s all this is. The more agitated we get the better for him. Whether or not he took HCQ barely matters. Those who wish him ill are better off thinking of other things. he’s always going to be just fine. Whether as president of the US or whether as President of the US or Pres of TRUMP INC. He’s amassing followers and TRUMP app subscribers/TRUMP TV watchers, and making bank, as the rappers always crowed about.

    And that’s always been his great advantage. he literally has 0 f*cks to give. He’s here for the ride.

    JRH (52aed3)

  66. *future TRUMP TV watchers. he’ll buy OAN and give FOX a run for their money I guess.

    JRH (52aed3)

  67. Good observation, jrh. Most wouldn’t put this out there. Let alone make it a spectacle with the Navy and Fox News in the middle. Trump is always always inserting himself into the front page.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  68. Like his co-proclivitor, Oscar Wilde, Trump considers that the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. His name has to be in the media very day. Remember the Greenland purchase when he went for two or three days without being mentioned in the media?

    nk (1d9030)

  69. #49 —

    As you know, this story feeds in to two irresistible Trump story lines:

    1. Trump as conman/liar. He’s just telling people this because he has some interest in promoting hydorxychloroquine.

    2. Trump as reckless loon. Trump got some bee up his morbidly obese hindquarters, and so he browbeat some doctor into prescribing it, and heaven knows what the consequences will be.

    Media trying to figure out if it is door 1 or door 2 will provide hours of media navel gazing fun. Trump’s likely happy, because he is the center of attention, and this distracts from something else murky.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  70. My comment at 55 dovetails with yours at 65, JRH, and I would add that he is the poster child for the old adage that “there is no such thing as bad publicity”. He keeps himself in the spotlight while feeding his insatiable narcissistic appetite. It’s just so pathetic.

    Dana (0feb77)

  71. I doubt Trump’s physician is lying, so the presumption that Trump lied about taking the drug has been overcome.

    Paul Montagu (b3f51b)

  72. @ felipe, #45:

    …more info is better than less info.

    Not necessarily. I fail to see what the work of David Irving contributes to a discussion of the Holocaust, for example.

    Demosthenes (c31dc7)

  73. The government drug information for Plaquenil aka hydroxychloroquine warns of Long QT problems and other issues. The side effects for chloroquine may be worse for hearing and liver than Plaquenil, which is likely why Trump is taking Plaquenil.

    DRJ (15874d)

  74. ventilators kill, nursng homes kill, specially when Cuomo murphy whitmer newsom have it as official policy, feed some more koi for me,

    narciso (7404b5)

  75. *future TRUMP TV watchers. he’ll buy OAN and give FOX a run for their money I guess.

    JRH (52aed3) — 5/19/2020 @ 8:11 am

    Since he has no problem owning businesses as POTUS, he and his sons may do this whether he wins or loses in November. More flexibility in his second term …

    DRJ (15874d)

  76. @55 Dana, that is a great comment, which I hadn’t seen (sometimes I skim rather than reading, as I should do). He *is* the red meat. That’s it in a nutshell.

    JRH (52aed3)

  77. Olivia Nuzzi:

    If you are worried enough about the virus to take a drug that has not been proven or approved to prevent or treat the virus, but you are not worried enough to wear a mask and gloves, what the hell does that mean?

    Paul Montagu (b3f51b)

  78. You wondered why OANN was getting to bypass the White House Press Corp rules.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  79. Demosthenes, I’m glad you watched the video. Are you concerned about the medical degree of the Texas Doctor?

    BuDuh (735004)

  80. California researchers find another reason why some people (especially Californians?) may not be as impacted by Covid:

    People who have never been infected with COVID-19 could already have some form of immunity against it, if they’ve fought off the common cold.

    Researchers analysed 11 blood samples taken two years ago, from people who had been struck down with another type of coronavirus. Half of the samples contained disease-fighting T cells that recognised SARS-CoV-2 virus in the lab, and 20 per cent had cells that may able to kill the virus.

    Scientists at the La Jolla Institute for Immunology in California say it is ‘tempting to speculate’ that having had a cold could offer some form of immunity.

    DRJ (15874d)

  81. Buduh,

    I know doctors who have the same faith in hydroxychloroquine — used briefly and in small doses — as Dr Lozano. They may be right about its benefits. But the ones I know, and it appears Dr Lozano, too, use it on everyone they think has Covid so their patients might have mild cases or have gotten better anyway. Have any of Dr Lozano’s patients had to be hospitalized or died? It doesn’t sound like it, but I am doubtful because that is not the case with the doctors I know. I also wonder how many Covid patients she has seen as a family practice doctor.

    DRJ (15874d)

  82. Golly, this thread sure brought out the nutters!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  83. I also wonder how many Covid patients she has seen as a family practice doctor.

    Me too, DRJ. Hopefully a neutral media does a thorough and un-biased investigation.

    BuDuh (735004)

  84. @ BuDuh, #79:

    Are you concerned about the medical degree of the Texas Doctor?

    I don’t have the relevant expertise to question anyone’s medical credentials. Are you concerned about the medical degrees of the three doctors who were shown in your linked video, or the doctors affiliated with the Lancet, saying that there was no evidence HCQ was an effective treatment against this virus? And if so, on what grounds are you qualified to question their medical credentials or expertise?

    And will you own up to the fact that you mischaracterized the contents of the video you linked?

    Demosthenes (c31dc7)

  85. 54.What reason does Trump have to lie about it? How does he benefit from it? Because it has to benefit him directly to make it worth his time.

    Exactly. Without evidence, the Trump haters say he is lying. Even though they have no proof, and there’s no reason for Trump to lie.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  86. 80. The “common cold” is caused by two broad classes of virus: Rhinovirus and Coronavirus. As immunity is not always permanent or absolute, it’s possible that some specific corona-class viroids may confer partial immunity against CoViD-19, but it’s also worth noting that not all colds (and for that matter, not all cases of flu) are caused by coronavirus.

    Gryph (08c844)

  87. the fish cleaner lady, with the murderous glint in her eye,

    narciso (7404b5)

  88. DRJ, what is your opinion of Ragspierre’s comment at 8:44? I will go back to occasional lurking.

    Hope you are well. Thank you for the dialogue.

    BuDuh (735004)

  89. Reasons Trump might be lying.
    1. He saw something on social media or the TV.
    2. He wants people to talk about him.
    3. He said the drug was good without proof, and now that evidence is in that his claims were inaccurate he doesn’t want to double down.

    Could be others. I don’t know if he’s telling the truth or not, but based on his past history there’s no reason to believe anything he says.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  90. 89. I think Donald Trump’s character defects do include, but also go far beyond, simply lying.

    Gryph (08c844)

  91. Its good that after 4 years of hysterics, the Trump haters (including the non-credible Main stream media), have cried wolf about Trump so often and lied so much, that no one pays attention. Its like listening to the White House Press Corps – you know 95% of the questions with be hostile, GOTCHA questions or little/mini pro-Democrat/anti-trump speeches and you just tune them out. Its only Trump’s answer that has any importance. But then all worthless left-wing propaganda has that effect.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  92. D, you ”Bulverized“ Sammy Finklemen in your comment at #18. I was pointing out the irony. I apologize for my wording on how the Dr caused me to research the pamphlet. My misunderstanding at least caused me to read the document.

    Best of health to you.

    BuDuh (735004)

  93. Thanks for the Lozano information. I hope the meds are used carefully and help people. I hope we find other meds, too.

    DRJ (15874d)

  94. The day of a never-trumper:

    1) Get up
    2) Go online. Read news.
    3) Comment on news.
    4) Say how much you hate trump – for 500th time in a row.
    5) Repeat he’s a Liar/crook/crazy/etc. – for 500th time in a row.
    6) Go to Lunch.
    7) Repeat steps 4) and 5)

    Incredible.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  95. Nope. I have lunch at home.

    nk (1d9030)

  96. If some people live like that (as opposed to those who spend all day pointing it out), Trump makes it easy.

    DRJ (15874d)

  97. 94. The day of a trump humper:

    1) Wake up
    2) Go online and watch videos of Trump
    3) Comment on what a great president Trump is
    4) Say how much you love Trump and hate never-trumpers — for 1,000,000th time in a row
    5) Repeat how smart he is/4 dimensional chess/good for America/Etc. — for 1,000,000th time in a row
    6) Go to lunch
    7) Repeat steps 4) and 5)

    Unsurprising.

    Gryph (08c844)

  98. What is a Trump defender’s day like?

    DRJ (15874d)

  99. 98. See comment #97 😉

    Gryph (08c844)

  100. Gryph read my mind.

    DRJ (15874d)

  101. @ BuDuh, #92:

    D, you ”Bulverized“ Sammy Finklemen in your comment at #18. I was pointing out the irony.

    I did no such thing. Sammy made a claim at #16 that “the warnings are exaggerated.” I was asking (snarkily, I admit) if he made that claim on his own authority. His response at #23 indicated his belief that particular authority was not relevant in this case, and in the process he made what I thought was a questionable reading of the warning, which I disputed at #28. It’s all right up there for anyone to read. There’s no Bulverism in that conversation.

    Demosthenes (c31dc7)

  102. Trump is for entertainment purposes only, comrades, and with the lockdown and all ….

    I did boil a 5-lb ham yesterday (yes, boiled not baked) in orange juice (Florida all natural with pulp), cloves and oregano, the way my mother did. It turned out good. I had some for lunch and dinner yesterday, and will have it again for lunch today. With a bagel, some cinnamon apple pie filling, a fresh apple, and a Hershey bar.

    nk (1d9030)

  103. The day of a never-trumper:

    1) Get up
    2) Go online. Read news.
    3) Comment on news.
    4) Say how much you hate trump – for 500th time in a row.
    5) Repeat he’s a Liar/crook/crazy/etc. – for 500th time in a row.
    6) Go to Lunch.
    7) Repeat steps 4) and 5)

    Look, if you’re unwilling to call out any politician on any side of the aisle with equal vigor and passion when they are being dishonest, corrupt, or behaving as if they have no functioning moral compass, then you’ve diminished your own credibility by making judgments on those who are willing to be equal-opportunity critics of all politicians. I believe that every politician has feet of clay, and at some point will prove this truth by their actions. When they do, they should be called out. It is not my fault that Trump continually provides endless evidence of this, and gets called out for it. He should be called out for it. Your problem is with Trump, not with his critics. He is the one who provides the red meat, and gets chewed up as a result. It is he alone who chooses to be dishonest, etc. Let’s let him be an adult and own that, and let’s keep on holding our elected officials accountable – no matter who they are.

    Dana (0feb77)

  104. Anyway,

    The president also said that, along with the daily dose of hydroxychloroquine, he has been taking a a daily dose of zinc and an initial dose of the antibiotic azithromycin.

    If you are not doing those exact same things yourselves, you are not true Trump supporters. You don’t really believe in President Donald Trump, either. So don’t go criticizing #NeverTrump!

    nk (1d9030)

  105. Buduh,

    I know PCP and family doctors who initially refused to see anyone (even their own patients) with suspicious symptoms. Hospitals in my area refused to let them in the ER. And no one could get tested because the tests didn’t exist in my area until mid to late March. Even then, it was hard to get and probably useless for people who had Covid in February and early March.

    So kudos to Dr Lozano for trying to treat her Covid patients with the only option she could find.

    DRJ (15874d)

  106. You can’t just bop into any VA hospital or clinic anywhere in the US.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  107. Utah went all-in on an unproven Covid-19 treatment, then scrambled to course-correct
    Even before President Trump started plugging chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine as Covid-19 treatments, enthusiasm for the old malaria drugs was swelling in the state of Utah.

    The “stunning medications” led to “responses that are equivalent to Lazarus” — the Biblical figure brought back to life by Jesus — one physician said at an event at the state Capitol. The deputy director of the state health department, even as he acknowledged there was not “FDA-type of evidence” showing the drugs worked, said he was willing to put stock in case reports and “test tube evidence.”

    Propelled by that hype, as well as mounting fears of the oncoming pandemic, the state pursued a sweeping — and eyebrow-raising — policy that would have let pharmacies dispense the unproven medications to patients with Covid-19 without a prescription. Utah, which took perhaps the most aggressive strategy with the drugs of any state, also put in an order for $800,000 worth of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine to build a stockpile, and considered buying millions of dollars more.
    ……
    Utah eventually abandoned its plans to make the drugs available without prescriptions and canceled its order.
    ….
    The saga of the drugs’ rise and fall in Utah, pieced together from documents STAT obtained through a public records request, provides a case study of what happens when hope and excitement about therapies outpace the evidence.
    …..
    When, for example, the Utah Medical Association issued a bulletin to physicians, since rescinded, that suggested the state was recommending hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for Covid-19 patients, the state epidemiologist wrote to others in the health department, “I disagree with this approach.” A top infectious disease specialist at the University of Utah was more blunt, sending a message with only “WTF?????”
    …..
    …..Dan Richards, a pharmacist, suggested the drugs contributed to South Korea’s success in stemming its outbreak. Kurt Hegmann, a physician, made the comparison to Lazarus, and Marc Babitz, the deputy director of the state health department, delivered his comments about the quality of evidence. At one point, Babitz cited Trump as a reason for suggesting the drugs might work.

    “Our president came out and suggested the medications,” Babitz said. “So we’re very confident this could make a significant difference.”
    ……

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  108. Its good that after 4 years of hysterics, the Trump haters (including the non-credible Main stream media), have cried wolf about Trump so often and lied so much, that no one pays attention. Its like listening to the White House Press Corps – you know 95% of the questions with be hostile, GOTCHA questions or little/mini pro-Democrat/anti-trump speeches and you just tune them out. Its only Trump’s answer that has any importance. But then all worthless left-wing propaganda has that effect.

    rcocean (2e1c02) — 5/19/2020 @ 8:57 am

    I’m sorry your mascot is famously weak at providing accurate information in his public statements. It’s unfortunate that you find it so painful when people take his history of lies and inaccuracies into account and doubt his statements. But it’s not my fault he’s less honest than any president in my lifetime. It’s his. The fact that other presidents were also dishonest doesn’t change that. If the next president lies I’ll call that out also. If they’re GOP it will bother you. If they’re a Dem you’ll agree with me.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  109. @69 (btw,nice!)

    #49 —

    As you know, this story feeds in to two irresistible Trump story lines:

    1. Trump as conman/liar. He’s just telling people this because he has some interest in promoting hydorxychloroquine.

    2. Trump as reckless loon. Trump got some bee up his morbidly obese hindquarters, and so he browbeat some doctor into prescribing it, and heaven knows what the consequences will be.

    Media trying to figure out if it is door 1 or door 2 will provide hours of media navel gazing fun. Trump’s likely happy, because he is the center of attention, and this distracts from something else murky.

    Appalled (1a17de) — 5/19/2020 @ 8:17 am

    Or…
    3. Media is just looking to discredit Trump because they’ve lost their ever loving minds. Doesn’t matter what.

    Just hear me out…

    I mean, consider this possibility: There are ample anecdotal evidences that hydroxychloriquine *may* have therapeutic benefit in combating against covid-19. It’s too early to definitively state either way, yet because of these anecdotal evidence, prescribers still consider this an option as long as the risks are reasonable managed.

    Now, we’re seeing plenty of retrospective analysis that a regimen of this med, along with Zinc reduced the number of hospital days, ventilator days and deaths compared to the population not taking this regimen.

    That is usually enough to warrant further studies, culminating into full FDA-approved clinical trials (which can take years to thoroughly be vetted). However, this would need to be funded by the government because no private corporation is going to invest in that much resource on a 60 yr old med with no patent protection to recoup their costs.

    I’m trying really hard to prove here that I’m not reflectively trying to defend Trump here… I’m merely pointing out that hydroxychloriquine has effectively been politicized, which is pants-on-asinine because think about the possibility that this med *is* effective in a therapeutic setting.

    Furthermore, we just had reports in these last few weeks of whitehouse staff testing positive… so, I don’t think he’s lying about take this prophylactically and is being monitored by whitehouse doctors. It would be weird had he announced he was taking it when all this started… but, here it seems they’re trying to be prudent, as he is, afterall…the President.

    whembly (c30c83)

  110. If you read, Captain sir, you’d see that fine print on the label is a tell: Placebo Pharmaceuticals.

    “Give me… sugar… in water.” – Edgar the Bug [Vincent D’Onofrio]”Men In Black” 1997

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  111. Under an ‘America First’ president, will the U.S. corner the market on Covid-19 vaccine?
    The United States is sprinting headlong toward the development and distribution of Covid-19 vaccines. But under an “America First” president, public health experts worry, the United States could seek to gobble up early supplies — and set the stage for prolonged devastation in the rest of the world.

    Under “Operation Warp Speed,” the Trump administration hopes to have 300 million doses of vaccine ready for domestic use by January 2021. That outcome would largely satisfy domestic needs in the United States, experts say, but it would mean prioritizing low-risk individuals in one the world’s richest countries over high-risk health care workers and other vulnerable populations elsewhere in the world.
    …….
    [Tom] Bollyky [director of the global health program at the Council on Foreign Relations] warned any U.S. effort to inoculate its entire population could incentivize other countries to refuse to share peripheral materials needed for mass vaccination, including vaccine vials and syringes.
    …..
    Determined to protect U.S. interests, the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, an agency under the Department of Health and Human Services, has spent billions of dollars to support the creation or expansion of vaccine manufacturing operations on U.S. soil, the agency’s former director, Robin Robinson, told STAT recently.

    While the U.S. is perhaps being the most forthright about its intent to meet domestic needs first, experts believe many countries may succumb to the same type of pressure, especially if vaccine becomes available when a resurgence of transmission is underway.
    …….

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  112. Phil Kerpen
    @kerpen
    ·
    Pennsylvania has more COVID deaths over age 100 than under age 45.

    More deaths over age 95 than under age 60.

    More deaths over 85 than under 80.

    https://health.pa.gov/topics/Documents/Diseases%20and%20Conditions/COVID-19%20Death%20Reports/Weekly%20Report%20of%20Deaths%20Attributed%20to%20COVID-19%20–%202020-05-17.pdf
    __ _

    harkin (8f4a6f)

  113. Whembly, What you said is reasonable. It’s not what Trump and his supporters have claimed. Additionally, hydroxychloroquine is being studied and is being shown to be ineffective. Future studies my provide data to support other conclusions, but this is the data we have today.

    If the president had made some moderate remarks along the lines of what you said criticizing him would be unwarranted. But he didn’t.

    If this worked as a preventive or a treatment that would be great. But the balance of the evidence is that it doesn’t.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  114. “If you are worried enough about the virus to take a drug that has not been proven or approved to prevent or treat the virus, but you are not worried enough to wear a mask and gloves, what the hell does that mean?”

    This is easy to answer: The drug protects you (in theory). The mask protects other people. So you need to have a concern for other people to wear a mask. This applies to all the mask protesters out there as well.

    Davethulhu (6c08ad)

  115. #109 whembly:

    3. Media is just looking to discredit Trump because they’ve lost their ever loving minds. Doesn’t matter what.

    Trump’s skill at baiting the media remains unmatched. He knows what he is doing. The media does, too, but they can’t stop. Their minds may be lost, but crazy brings the ratings.

    I mean, consider this possibility: There are ample anecdotal evidences that hydroxychloriquine *may* have therapeutic benefit in combating against covid-19. It’s too early to definitively state either way, yet because of these anecdotal evidence, prescribers still consider this an option as long as the risks are reasonable managed.

    The risks of the President touting a drug on national TV are immense. If Trump were president of Trump Pharmaceuticals, he’s be in trouble with the FDA and SEC for what he had done.

    I’m trying really hard to prove here that I’m not reflectively trying to defend Trump here… I’m merely pointing out that hydroxychloriquine has effectively been politicized, which is pants-on-asinine because think about the possibility that this med *is* effective in a therapeutic setting.

    Trump is the guy who politicized it by making the drug such a big part of his roadshow. Given that Trump’s skill IS promotion, I figure he did this deliberately. Pants on fire asininity is on him.

    Furthermore, we just had reports in these last few weeks of whitehouse staff testing positive… so, I don’t think he’s lying about take this prophylactically and is being monitored by whitehouse doctors. It would be weird had he announced he was taking it when all this started… but, here it seems they’re trying to be prudent, as he is, afterall…the President.

    Trump just lies. So even if it makes sense something is true, that doesn’t mean it is.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  116. The woman behind ‘Roe vs. Wade’ didn’t change her mind on abortion. She was paid
    When Norma McCorvey, the anonymous plaintiff in the landmark Roe vs. Wade case, came out against abortion in 1995, it stunned the world and represented a huge symbolic victory for abortion opponents: “Jane Roe” had gone to the other side. For the remainder of her life, McCorvey worked to overturn the law that bore her name.

    But it was all a lie, McCorvey says in a documentary filmed in the months before her death in 2017, claiming she only did it because she was paid by antiabortion groups including Operation Rescue.

    “I was the big fish. I think it was a mutual thing. I took their money and they’d put me out in front of the cameras and tell me what to say. That’s what I’d say,” she says in “AKA Jane Roe,” which premieres Friday on FX. “It was all an act. I did it well too. I am a good actress.”

    In what she describes as a “deathbed confession,” a visibly ailing McCorvey restates her support for reproductive rights in colorful terms: “If a young woman wants to have an abortion, that’s no skin off my ass. That’s why they call it choice.”
    ……

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  117. Update: Florida Health Department manager told to delete coronavirus data forced to resign, she says
    One day before a top Florida Department of Health data manager was taken off her role maintaining the state’s COVID-19 dashboard, officials had directed her to remove data from public view that showed Floridians reported symptoms of the disease before cases were officially announced, according to internal emails obtained by the Tampa Bay Times. She has since been asked to resign, she said Tuesday.

    According to the emails, department staff gave the order shortly after reporters requested the same data from the agency on May 5. The data manager, Rebekah Jones, complied with the order, but not before she told her supervisors it was the “wrong call.”

    y the next morning, control over the data was given to other employees, according to an email Jones posted Friday on a public listserv. Jones, the department’s Geographic Information Systems manager, wrote that she was no longer the point person for questions about the department’s “Florida’s COVID-19 Data and Surveillance Dashboard.” She implied her removal was an act of retribution.

    Jones confirmed Tuesday that she was offered a settlement and the option to resign in lieu of being fired, effective May 26.

    The dashboard, which gives daily updates on numbers of deaths, cases and tests for the coronavirus in every county in the state, is relied upon by officials, journalists, academics and residents who want as much information as possible about the deadly pandemic.
    ……

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  118. Whitmer order bans ‘nonessential’ plant tours, but Trump’s Ford visit still on; automaker policy requires ‘everyone’ to wear masks
    When Ford Motor Co. hosts President Donald Trump on Thursday for a tour of its Rawsonville Components Plant in Ypsilanti, the automaker will be doing so in technical violation of an executive order from Gov. Gretchen Whitmer prohibiting “nonessential” plant tours. Her office signaled it would not stand in the way of the visit.

    Ford says it will require the president to wear a mask, something he has not done on other recent plant tours.
    ….
    “Our policy is that everyone wears PPE to prevent the spread of COVID-19,” Ford spokeswoman Rachel McCleery said. “We shared all of Ford’s safety protocols, including our manufacturing playbook, employee pamphlet and self-assessment survey with the White House ahead of time and in preparation for this trip.”
    ….

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  119. There had been questions about its relationship to Covid:

    CDC confirms inflammatory syndrome found in kids and teens is linked to COVID-19.

    Dana (0feb77)

  120. Mark Simone on WOR this morning said he had talked to many doctors (albeit only in New York, where there is a lot of Covid-19) and they all use it.

    They also give people an EKG before using it on a patient. They also ask about what other medications the are taking even monthly because there can be a synergistic effect. The usual prescription is for six days.

    Mark Simone said two weeks should have no effect. It takes at least six months of taking hydroxychloroquine for bad effects on the heart to show up, and maybe more like two years.

    These things I mentioned in the last two paragraphs he added at the end.

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  121. And the lies just keep coming:

    Fact check: Trump falsely denies FDA warning on hydroxychloroquine, baselessly alleges political bias in study

    President Donald Trump continued Tuesday to make false and baseless claims about hydroxychloroquine, the anti-malaria drug he has repeatedly promoted and now says he is himself taking.

    At a Cabinet meeting on Tuesday, Trump falsely denied the existence of a Food and Drug Administration warning about the use of hydroxychloroquine for the coronavirus. And he claimed without any evidence that a study on veterans who were given the drug was conducted by political foes who had set out to hurt him.

    The FDA warning

    Trump was reminded by a reporter on Tuesday that the FDA has said hydroxychloroquine should not be used outside of a hospital setting or research studies.

    Trump interjected: “No. That’s not what I was told. No.”

    Facts First: The reporter was right. The FDA issued a safety warning on April 24 that was headlined, “FDA cautions against use of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for COVID-19 outside of the hospital setting or a clinical trial due to risk of heart rhythm problems.”

    We don’t know what Trump might have been personally told, but he was incorrect when he said “no” in response to the reporter’s accurate premise.

    Dave (1bb933)

  122. Then he’s definitely lying that he’s taking it by doctor’s prescription, unless he’s wearing a Holter heart monitor.

    Oh, what am I even saying? He’s Trump! Of course he’s lying!

    nk (1d9030)

  123. nd not in the eyes of the medcal community. Rather, according to the very strict standards of the FDA for for giving anything the go-ahead. This does not reflect the thinking of the medical community to the contrary, they are trying to tell doctors what to think.

    The warning is aimed at doctors, more than patients, because the doctors need to authorize its use of hydroxychloroquine, and you can verify this from a careful study of its wording:

    Quote:

    …. Therefore, we would like to remind health care professionals and patients of the known risks associated with both hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine.

    The word “remind” means it is aimed at people who, according to the FDA, should have known this already, and that’s principally not patients. Also note “health care professionals” is mentioned first.

    I know the spin that has been put onto the FDA notice, probably because of deep background talking to the press. Nevertheless, actually Trump is right in saying that the Food and Drug Administration did not give a warning about the use of hydroxychloroquine for the coronavirus and I fully believe he was not told this. (CNN fac check quoted by Dave @122)

    The FDA mentioned it is being studied in clinical trials. Their motive apparently is not to spoil the clinical trials.

    As for rigged studies, studies are rigged all the time. They were n the field of nutrition. You just get experts to design them the :right” way. I don’t know if that VA study was aimed at Donald Trump but the one that aimed to discredit the Abbott Laboratories Covid-19 test used by the White House maybe is. All that that does is prove how quickly the virus gets degraded. They waited two hours or more to test the samples because they were transporting them to the same place, thus creating more false negatives. Additional reasons they might have had less success in detecting infection was they did the est the wrong way.

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  124. nk is right that Trump could just have made this up. I’ve met a few guys who will lie even if the truth serves them better. They think there’s power or cleverness there. Trump is like that.

    But imagine that Trump is taking this potentially deadly medicine, just to prevent COVID-19, which Rush claimed was just the common cold, not that dangerous. It’s like Trump asking Russia to release Hillary’s emails at a particular time, on national TV, and then shutting down all investigation of collusion because they are unreasonable. You can’t line all of Trump’s claims up together. They always wind up falling apart.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  125. Oh, what am I even saying? He’s Trump! Of course he’s lying!

    I wouldn’t rush to judgment, Mr. nk.

    It’s really anyone’s guess which way to bet when the irresistible force of Trump’s dishonesty meets the immovable object of his stupidity…

    Dave (1bb933)

  126. Maybe Trump Isn’t Lying

    Some Americans are willing to forgive lies from the president, but even they shouldn’t shrug off the possibility that Trump simply doesn’t understand the pandemic clearly enough to respond to it effectively.

    “She tested positive out of the blue,” Trump said when a press secretary for the vice president tested positive for COVID-19. “This is why the whole concept of tests aren’t necessarily great. The tests are perfect, but something can happen between a test––where it’s good, and then something happens, and all of a sudden––she was tested very recently and tested negative. And then today, I guess, for some reason, she tested positive.”

    Does Trump even comprehend that testing negative for a disease, getting it, and later testing positive illustrates no problem with testing? The “something” that happened was an infection, the very thing tests are meant to catch.

    Read the whole thing…

    Dave (1bb933)

  127. Well, it is a Chinese virus. You know: Half an hour later, you need to be tested for it again.

    nk (1d9030)

  128. 125. Dustin (d59cff) — 5/19/2020 @ 10:23 pm

    ..But imagine that Trump is taking this potentially deadly medicine, just to prevent COVID-19, which Rush claimed was just the common cold, not that dangerous. It’s like Trump asking Russia to release Hillary’s emails at a particular time, on national TV, and then shutting down all investigation of collusion because they are unreasonable. You can’t line all of Trump’s claims up together. They always wind up falling apart.

    Trump asked this after they had already been removed from the Interent and deleted (except that they might all have been still available to Hillary, on Anthony Weiner’s laptop, which, after Anthony Weiner was later caught sexting with an underage girl, and became subject to a search warrant, the FBI later avoided searching by humans.

    I think the reason was so that they wouldn’t stumble upon evidence of a crime.

    Comey lied in testimony to Congress about the reason so many emails from HIllary wwere on his laptop (he said because Huma Abedin sent them there to be printed) and after the FBI admitted that was erroneous, the next thing you knew was that Trump had fired Comey. But that turned out not to be the reason or even the pretext.

    There was no collusion between the Trump campaign and Putin on the hacking or other illegal computer activities for the very simple and obvious reason that Putin would not take Trump into his confidence.

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  129. Dave,

    That makes sense and it could be true, but I lean toward the “snap judgment based on limited information” explanation (something many of his supporters do, too). For exampls, in the rare moments he bothers to listen to his advisers, Trump may hear a fragment of the briefing and use that to make sweeping decisions that may not even be consistent with the government briefing, resources, or policies. Ditto with what he hears on Fox News. He grasps at things he thinks he understands and then weaves them into his perceptions … and Voila! We have a Trump tweet and the policy for the moment.

    DRJ (15874d)

  130. Ask Trump:

    ‘How Can I Be Sick?’ Wisconsin Woman Who Took Hydroxychloroquine For 19 Years To Treat Lupus Still Got COVID-19

    DRJ (15874d)

  131. From the link:

    Kim said even though she took precautions when leaving the house for the grocery store, she thought she would be safe because of what President Donald Trump has said about the drug.

    People believe what Trump says. They shouldn’t.

    DRJ (15874d)

  132. Trump says he will stop taking hydroxychloroquine in two days. That will probably make it a 14-day prescription.

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  133. Trump:

    “This is why the whole concept of tests aren’t necessarily great.”

    He is obviously referring to the idea that you can re-open if only you can test. (and trace) He’s heard any number of times that they should wait or that states should wait until they can test.

    This incident shows that testing is not necessarily the answer. It is not a foolproof preventative.

    So to Trump that means think of other ideas, or perhaps omit it.

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  134. DRJ (15874d) — 5/20/2020 @ 1:20 pm

    People believe what Trump says. They shouldn’t.

    It was actually Chinese doctors who said that, or it was said they said that.

    Apparently they didn’t have zero patents taking chloroquine – it was chloroquine in China – just less, or chloroquine works better against the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2, than hydroxychloroquine

    I think it was people outside of China who switched to hydroxychloroquine because it was safer, and because all quinines were presumed to have the same effect.

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  135. Mark another study showing HCQ is harmful, not helpful. So, still zero studies saying it’s beneficial, every other one saying it may kill you, but what do you have to lose.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  136. 136. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/22/2020 @ 9:07 am

    So, still zero studies saying it’s beneficial, every other one saying it may kill you, but what do you have to lose.

    There were not zero reports that hydroxychloroquine was beneficial. It was reported by Chinese doctors. (or maybe the other widely used anti-malarial drug, chloroquine)

    Meanwhile the New York Times magazine had a story May 17 (not accessible from the main May 17 2020 magazine webpage) on a search for re-purposed drugs that could be used for the coronovirus. It didn;t mention hydroxychloroquine even to rule it out or to say their method didn’t find it. They;d previously done that for other diseases.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/magazine/can-team-science-yield-a-covid-19-treatment.html

    A leprosy drug, clofazimine, appears to be effective against a parasite that is a leading cause of infant death from diarrhea worldwide; an arthritis drug, auranofin, looks as though it might be a possible tuberculosis treatment. But only about half of the molecules that have safety records for use in people were commercially available to screen. In 2015, Schultz pitched the idea of compiling a complete collection to the Gates Foundation, which gave Calibr $20 million. By 2018, it had bought 7,000 compounds and hired 500 chemists, who spent 18 months synthesizing 5,000 more compounds. The ReFrame library, as it is called, stores 20 milligrams of each compound, in powder form, in vials stacked in filing cabinets and freezers. It is the largest drug-repurposing library in the world and is available free to all academic and nonprofit labs, like Sanford Burnham Prebys, so long as they make any resulting data publicly available.

    ….The screening, run twice, identified about 300 compounds [out of more than 12,000 tried] that seemed to have kept the cells alive….

    ….Soon Martin-Sancho was testing the 300 compounds identified by the Hong Kong group on infected human cells, while Riva tried to replicate the group’s results in monkey cells. As a check, they used different reagents to detect the virus, which had been sent by Adolfo Garcia-Sastre, director of the Global Health and Emerging Pathogens Institute at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York. Garcia-Sastre and colleagues had developed the reagents for the original SARS virus. When that outbreak ended, instead of throwing them away, he stored them in a freezer; now, nearly two decades later, they proved effective at revealing the presence of the novel coronavirus.

    ….On April 17, Chanda, Yin and 29 co-authors from institutions around the world published a paper detailing their findings on the preprint server bioRxiv.org. (The paper is currently being peer-reviewed for publication in a journal.) They tested 12,000 drugs and identified 30 that appear to stop the virus from destroying human cells. Of those, four have already been clinically tested for other uses, including rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn’s disease, osteoporosis and cancer, and they seem to neutralize the virus in doses that people are likely to tolerate.

    It doesn’t say whether one of them was hydroxychloroquine. but what other drug prescribed for rheumatoid arthritis has been clinically tested?

    Sammy Finkelman (45c255)

  137. Incidentally, I have more accurate information about why my friend’s ex-wife in Dallas was prescribed hydroxychloroquine in Dallas, Texas.

    It wasn’t bt a local doctor. It was her son’s father in law in California, who is a doctor, who did that. (The son lives in California. I don’t know if the doctor also lives in California.)

    He phoned in the prescription. Or maybe it’s that he phoned around (the doctor who was her son in California’s father in law) until he found a pharmacy in Dallas that had hydroxychloroquine in stock.

    Sammy Finkelman (45c255)


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