White House Employees Now Required To Wear Masks While Inside West Wing
[guest post by Dana]
The subject of face masks has certainly proven to be a contentious one. Now that the White House has seen several confirmed cases of coronavirus, a directive was issued today which now requires employees to wear masks while in the West Wing:
New guidance released to Trump administration employees will require them to wear masks when inside the West Wing, according to an internal memo released on Monday and obtained by The New York Times.
“As an additional layer of protection, we are requiring everyone who enters the West Wing to wear a mask or face covering,” read the memo, which was distributed to staff members through the White House management office.
The new guidance is an abrupt establishment of a policy after two aides working near the president — a military valet and Katie Miller, the vice president’s spokeswoman — tested positive for the virus last week.
For weeks, President Trump and Vice President Mike Pence have downplayed the need to wear masks, an attitude that had trickled down to staffers at lower ranks. The new rules are not expected to apply to Mr. Trump or Mr. Pence…
Trump has said that he won’t wear a mask because it would “send the wrong message”:
Trump has told advisers that he believes wearing one would “send the wrong message,” according to one administration and two campaign officials not authorized to publicly discuss private conversations.
The president said doing so would make it seem like he is preoccupied with health instead of focused on reopening the nation’s economy — which his aides believe is the key to his reelection chances in November.
He also allegedly told those close to him that he does not want to wear a mask because of concerns that the image of him wearing one could be used in negative ads. But given that Democrats have been pushing for mask-wearing and the CDC recommends it, how would the president donning one be presented as a negative? I think Nancy Pelosi was onto something when she opined that Trump choosing not to wear a mask was a “vanity thing”. Perhaps he sees it as emasculating, which really wouldn’t be a stretch, given his tendency to relish the role of tough guy. But it may also be something else as well:
… presidents felt they had to project health and strength to be elected and to be respected once in office. And something similar may be motivating Trump. A masked president is not a good look for any number of reasons, and a president trapped in the White House does not communicate confidence. Communicating confidence is essential to the persona of this president.
Beyond that, Trump has apparently decided that the way out of the current crisis is to be bold about reopening as quickly as possible in as many places as possible. He concedes there will be consequences and some will be “affected badly” but insists the economic damage cannot be allowed to continue.
So we can expect to see the president out and about around the country, projecting confidence in the nation’s health and resilience. And that is what he is modeling by not wearing a mask.
Of course, depending on the number of Americans who actually are “affected badly,” Trump may regret his modeling strategy. (Not to mention those that have already been “affected badly”…_
Here are some polling numbers related to Americans wearing face masks:
While most other protective measures like social distancing get broad bipartisan support, Democrats are more likely than Republicans to say they’re wearing a mask when leaving home, 76% to 59%, according to a recent poll by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research.
The split is clear across several demographics that lean Democratic. People with college degrees are more likely than those without to wear masks when leaving home, 78% to 63%. African Americans are more likely than either white people or Hispanic Americans to say they’re wearing masks outside the home, 83% to 64% and 67%, respectively.
The notable exception is among older people, a group particularly vulnerable to serious illness from the virus. Some 79% of those age 60 and over were doing so compared with 63% of those younger.
And apparently without any irony, there is this: “…Trump’s reelection campaign has ordered red Trump-branded masks and is considering giving them away at events or in return for donations. But some advisers are concerned the president will eventually sour on the idea.”
Because we’re talking masks, and it’s an old favorite. Who Was That Masked Man…
–Dana
Hello. Who was that (un)masked man? It’s an old fave, so I’m dropping it here.
Dana (0feb77) — 5/11/2020 @ 4:53 pm(a) this should have been done six weeks ago.
(b) *not* wearing the mask sends the message that he doesn’t think wearing masks is helpful and that he thinks the CDC’s recommendation that people do so is wrong. Wearing the mask would send the message that he takes their advice seriously and encourages us to do so.
He’s sending the wrong message now. But why should we expect anything different?
aphrael (7962af) — 5/11/2020 @ 5:58 pmI am torn on the mask wearing. I don’t have a N-95 mask, only cloth ones. But the cloth ones collect pollen like no one’s business. So I end up with worse reactions to my pollen allergies than if I didn’t wear one.
So if I’m maintaining my social distance, do I really need to wear one?
Hoi Polloi (dc4124) — 5/11/2020 @ 6:12 pmI was at Costco Sunday and they required everyone wear a mask. They were giving masks to people who didn’t have one for free. This tiny man started screaming at this little old lady whose job was to pass out the masks, she was “taking away his freedom”, so I stopped, asked him how his freedom was being impacted by them giving him a mask and asking him to wear it? He got red-faced, said freedom twice, yelled a single full throated word, “Constitution”. Then I said they also make you wear pants, what’s the problem? His wife came over, said “Bill, put on the mask or go effing home, (she didn’t say effing), you’re embarrassing me.” Everyone giggled, he mumbled and shuffled off, and she apologized to the nice old lady passing out masks.
It matters what people like the President say, people listen, like with the hydroxychloroquine, and a million other lies, great and small. It matters, Presidents are role models, whether they deserve to be or not.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/11/2020 @ 6:23 pm@2 I think that is precisely the message he intends to send.
Nic (896fdf) — 5/11/2020 @ 6:33 pmR.I.P. Jerry Stiller
‘Serenity now.’
DCSCA (797bc0) — 5/11/2020 @ 6:36 pm3. Only if you want to be a virtue signally Karen.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/11/2020 @ 6:44 pmTrump is showing every sign of about a year-in dementia (maybe longer). He can still fake it, but he cannot remember things anymore and, more important, he cannot think on his feet. That’s why when he does not have a ready answer to a question by a reporter he throws a tantrum. He did it again today. It’s classic, and it could go for several years, the faking. He could have a conversation with Ivanka, look and sound perfectly, normal, and not know who she is. And same thing in other social situations. I know. I’ve seen it before, and I’m seeing it now with an aunt.
nk (1d9030) — 5/11/2020 @ 6:49 pmWhere I live there is now a local ordinance in place that requires anyone going into a store to wear a mask.
Kishnevi (2c05aa) — 5/11/2020 @ 6:50 pmAggressive testing and contact tracing for my lickspittles and me, but not for thee.
If you like your virus, you can keep your virus.
Dave (1bb933) — 5/11/2020 @ 6:52 pmMenards has the 10 packs of KN95‘s (yeah, they’re from China, like almost all of the masks) for $22. A few weeks ago they had 50 packs for $99, limit 2 per order.
For most things I don’t wear the 95s. You wear a typical surgical mask because in most cases, since you’re not in a place where you really need high’ish protection, a surgical mask, and to a lesser extent a bandana, should be more focused on protecting everyone from you. If I had to get on a plane, or go to the doctor.
If everyone is wearing the minimum, everyone protects everyone, one a-hole not doing the minimum, makes everyone more vulnerable. It’s not just courtesy, it’s safety too.
Be a good neighbor, only go out when you need to, and when you leave the house, wear pants, wear a mask, it’s not charging a machine gun nest, you don’t have to be a warrior, just not an a-hole.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/11/2020 @ 6:55 pmIf I had to get on a plane, or go to the doctor…I’d wear the 95’s, that’s why I bought them.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/11/2020 @ 6:56 pmThe non-Karens can’t pick their noses while they’re wearing a mask, that’s their problem.
nk (1d9030) — 5/11/2020 @ 7:04 pmI wonder if Barron Trump is wearing a mask. How ’bout Melania? I hope so.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/11/2020 @ 7:05 pmAll you never trumper who agree with joe biden that communist china is no economic threat U.S. and U.K. are demanding that china stop its hackers from hacking u.s./u.k. companies trying to make vaccines.tests and treatments.
asset (d861fd) — 5/11/2020 @ 8:20 pmWhy do the Chinese need to hack? All they have to do is ask Trump or the Kushners.
nk (1d9030) — 5/11/2020 @ 8:33 pmPlease finish this thought, because it is currently incoherent. Chinese hackers, like American and Canadian hackers, are trying to gain economic advantage. They’re criminals, yeah, and…
I guess Trump is just more honest, if less effective, in his scumbaggery in screwing foreign countries out of a vaccine. Maybe you forgot this was a thing that actually happened, vs the thing that you seem to think is happening, that might be happening, but hasn’t been confirmed to be happening.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/11/2020 @ 8:48 pm– David Burge (@iowahawkblog)
lurker (d8c5bc) — 5/12/2020 @ 2:34 amThe President has been very consistent about this.
noel (4d3313) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:21 amHow long should the President tolerate the popularity and exposure of Dr. Fauci?
noel (4d3313) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:45 amActually, it seems to the anti-maskers/anti-social distancers who are the Karens. Dictionary.com agrees:
nk (1d9030) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:46 amHow long should the President tolerate the popularity and exposure of Dr. Fauci?
Fifteen minutes. That’s how long he remembers him after seeing him, hearing him, or hearing about him.
nk (1d9030) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:49 am…and that’s right after he’s drunken the blood of a young virgin…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:58 am21. Hey, I’m not getting on your case for wearing masks. I’m getting on your case for advocating forcing people to do it. As I have said so often before, true freedom is the freedom to be stupid.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:27 amI wouldn’t go that far, nk, but yeah Karen in 2020 has become what Yuppie became in 1984 and Chicago Machine Politician became midway during Daley II’s reign…the projection of your perceived enemy with nearly 180 d divergence depending who you ask.
urbanleftbehind (7eed6f) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:31 amAre those your tomatoes you’ll be breathing on at the Jewel?
nk (1d9030) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:46 amY’all have it wrong: the stereotype “Karen”, the one who always wants to speak to the manager, is the definition of the snitch who would report people for not following the government’s orders.
Thing is, I’ve known several women named Karen in my life, and they’ve all been pretty, pleasant and, quite frankly, sexy..
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:46 am21. Hey, I’m not getting on your case for wearing masks. I’m getting on your case for advocating forcing people to do it. As I have said so often before, true freedom is the freedom to be stupid.
Which is fine when you are not dealing with a highly contagious, deadly AND debilitating disease. Then you being stupid can kill or disable people out of your selfish carelessness and denial of reality.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:51 amY’all have it wrong: the stereotype “Karen”, the one who always wants to speak to the manager, is the definition of the snitch who would report people for not following the government’s orders.
You’d fit right in down in Mexico.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:52 amAdmittedly, I am/was far more in earshot of harried POC retail workers and Black Twatter, but pre-2020 stereotype Karen was more Jan Ward or Shelly Luther and was an inert cousin of Permit Patty and BBQ Becky than Amy Acton or Gretch the Wretch.
urbanleftbehind (7eed6f) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:52 amGretchen Whitless wanted to shut it down
But the judge said that she was a clown
The man wants to work,
Stop being a jerk,
He’s a local man of renown!
Today is National Limerick Day!
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:54 amFor is it not written, what profiteth a man if he shall gain the whole world but lose his Rooty Tooty Fresh ‘N Fruity Pancakes at the IHop?
nk (1d9030) — 5/12/2020 @ 7:00 amI heard Steak n Shake closing 100 outlets, but you know something about IHOP?
urbanleftbehind (7eed6f) — 5/12/2020 @ 7:02 amhttps://nbc25news.com/resources/media/ac468e24-f13a-474e-a5cc-a9087bf8a112-medium16x9_KARL1.jpg?1589213719358
There’s a photo of Brave Sir Karl. Note the mask. Note also the credentials hanging on the wall behind him.
I wonder why the idiots demonstrating outside the shop are wearing camo. They are kind of apparent against the buildings. I wonder if they realize…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 7:19 amI heard Steak n Shake closing 100 outlets, but you know something about IHOP?
Well, I haven’t checked, I go to Connie’s at Harlem and Burlington, but I figure they’re under the same lockdown order as all the other places.
nk (1d9030) — 5/12/2020 @ 7:29 amHaving read about Karens for the past week (and not before then), I learned that they can be pro-maskers and anti-maskers. There should also be a male equivalent, a Bruce.
Paul Montagu (b3f51b) — 5/12/2020 @ 7:38 amhttp://www.theforvm *dot* org/cinco-de-mayo-thread#comment-400375
28. You lost me a “deadly AND debilitating,” Karen. I’m not going to live my life in fear of a disease that I’m statistically unlikely to suffer from. You wanna wear a mask? Fine. Wear a mask. I won’t. And if you don’t like it that some people won’t, you’re free to cower in your home and avoid them.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 7:51 amIf everyone is wearing the minimum, everyone protects everyone, one a-hole not doing the minimum, makes everyone more vulnerable. It’s not just courtesy, it’s safety too.
Be a good neighbor, only go out when you need to, and when you leave the house, wear pants, wear a mask, it’s not charging a machine gun nest, you don’t have to be a warrior, just not an a-hole.
We get it, you choose a-hole.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/12/2020 @ 7:54 amThe retired Commandant of Stalag 13 wrote:
That’s just it: there would probably be more compliance with mask suggestions than with mask orders. If states would attempt to educate people on this, rather than issuing orders, there would be far less resistance.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:06 am38. Again, you are talking about something that any individual is highly statistically unlikely to suffer from. A 0.01-0.1 percent death rate in the people that have the virus. Yeah, I get it. It’s not nothing. But it’s not enough for me to display my cowardice on my face for all the world to see.
You wanna be a Karen, be a Karen. I’m going to exercise my God-given right to call you out as such and then ignore your advice. #StayAtHome and you won’t have to worry about the maskless a-holes of the world infecting you while we go about our business and get this economy moving again.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:07 am39. Make no mistake, Dana. There will always be stubborn SOBs out there who resist “education” predicated on fearing a virus that probably won’t make them sick. I know this cause I’m one of them.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:08 amThat’s just it: there would probably be more compliance with mask suggestions than with mask orders. If states would attempt to educate people on this, rather than issuing orders…
As with the beautiful illustration from the Denver cafe you were so thrilled about yesterday, there’s no evidence of that BS.
And you have the Gryphs of the world who simply deny reality and whine “freedom” when they really mean license to do as they damn well please, regardless.
At this point, pretty much everyone knows what they should be doing, and quite a few are NOT going to so it unless they are compelled.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:13 am42. If Freedom isn’t the license to do as I please, then how would you define it, numbknuckles?
You seem to have this predefined, bias-confirmed notion of what constitutes “reality,” when you can barely find five experts to agree on projected death numbers, just how useful a porous cloth mask really is, or how to proceed with “opening safely.”
My recommendation to you if you’re still so scared of this virus and people like me transmitting it, lock yourself at home and don’t go out. Follow your own self-quarantining/masking advice. If you don’t come in contact with us, you won’t be as likely to catch it.*
*Provided, of course, you don’t live in New York City, where lockdowns seemed to increase spread of the virus rather than decreasing it.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:18 amThat’s being shut down, BTW. The Colorado place. By the Health Department.
nk (1d9030) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:18 amRagspierre wrote:
Are you objecting to Mr Manke doing what he can to reduce the spread of COVID-19?
The credentials on the wall? He had his bachelor’s degree, of which he is probably proud, hanging on that wall, and, above that, some state-issued certifications, which he is probably required to display.
He was thrice denied unemployment compensation, though the news reports didn’t specify why, so perhaps he believes that he needs to work to keep from starving to death. He’s doing pretty much what Mayor Lori Lightfoot had her hairdresser do when she decided that, as the “public face” of Chicago, she needed a haircut despite her orders that hairdressers remain closed in Chicago.
It’s cold in Michigan, unseasonably so for mid-May, and these guys were wearing the warmer clothing that they had. Had it been 75º up there, they’d have been wearing their MAGA hats and Trump 2020 t-shirts. Perhaps that would generate mockery from you mas well, but they are still American citizens with a right to vote. That might offend you even more.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:21 amIf it was as socially unacceptable to go out without a mask as without pants, then the a-holes might not do it. Gryph is like Trump…in this case he doesn’t want to look un-cool wearing a mask. Courtesy and common sense aren’t cool enough I guess.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:21 amShe (cafe owner) must have been “Arellano” by injection. Hammer would have been slower or dropped altogether otherwise.
Go Mike!!! (Garcia, 25th CA c.d.)
urbanleftbehind (7eed6f) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:24 am46. I don’t want to look like a feckless coward, true, but there are practical reasons for me not to wear a mask as well. I have a family history of bronchiectasis which can make an individual particularly susceptible to hypoxia and hypercapnia. Beyond that, after a lifetime of recognizing and calling out government over-reach, doing something I don’t recognize the government’s authority to force me to do would start down a slippery slope of appeasement I don’t care to travel.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:25 amIf Freedom isn’t the license to do as I please, then how would you define it, numbknuckles?
I take it you were calling me names, Moana.
I’ve had to drag your obdurate butt through this knothole several times now, but I’ll deign to do it again for the benefit of others.
License means you have carte blanc to do something or other unimpeded. You don’t have much of any license, or damn few.
Freedom is a provisional capacity to do some things. It isn’t carte blanc, but conditional.
You can’t drive any way you please, regardless of your stupid protestations that you are accident proof.
You can’t serve tainted meat, regardless of your denials that it could harm any of your tragically unfortunate customers.
I hope that THIS time some of this sinks through that massive selfishness and need to virtue signal, but I doubt it will.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:30 amSince you’ve never had that freedom, not for one second that you’ve been on the earth, it’s a fantasy that only exists in your head.
Yeah, some say 100k by June 1, some say 110k by June 1, some say 135k by June 1. Notice none are arguing that it’s zero additional to the existing 80k in the next 18 days, it’s whether its 1500 a day, to 3000 a day.
Since you seem to believe in some flavor of total freedom, your neighbors ought to think about using their absolute natural right to self defense and ensure that your clear and present danger to their family is ended.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:30 amGryph wrote:
Well, I’m not one of them. I firmly believe that these state orders are an unconstitutional violation of our rights, but that doesn’t mean that taking precautions doesn’t make sense.
I’m retired, and my only business now is maintaining my farm. These stay-at-home orders don’t have any employment impact on me, because my work is at home. Other than the fact my wife and I can’t go to restaurants these days, this is having very little effect on me, personally. But, when I do have to go places — building supply store or Kroger, mostly — I keep my distance from others when I can, because it’s polite to do so. Yes, I can be an [insert slang term for the rectum here] when I need to be, but I try not to do so when it isn’t necessary.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:31 amI don’t want to look like a feckless coward…
Too late…!!!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:32 am49. I recognize the authority of laws that are constitutional, Karen. Nobody here is arguing that I should be able to get away with willful, premeditated murder.
Your sense of irony must be broken, considering that I’m supposedly virtue signalling because I *won’t* wear a mask. The curve is flattened, Karen. If you want to go home and wait for a vaccine that may never arrive, you are free to do so. And I’ll continue to exercise my freedom to ignore your advice no matter how uncomfortable that makes you.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:32 am52. I’m a feckless coward because I’m not wearing a mask? Wha…?
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:33 amTeh Greek barrister was unkind
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:35 amBut then his story began to unwind
Whatever the season
There must be a reason
He couldn’t leave his friend’s behind
Are you objecting to Mr Manke doing what he can to reduce the spread of COVID-19?
Are you asking me stupid questions?
The credentials on the wall? He had his bachelor’s degree, of which he is probably proud, hanging on that wall, and, above that, some state-issued certifications, which he is probably required to display.
Ah, so the state CAN tell him what to do WRT his business! A revelation!
The rest of your crap is just crap.
I’m not offended by T-rump supporters. More worried.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:40 am51. I do take precautions that I believe are suitable to the time and place in which I live.
I come from a very rural state. The vast majority of CoViD-19 infections in my home state of South Dakota have one of two factors in common: meat processing plants or nursing homes.
And before the screeching Karens weigh in, yes, I am aware that’s not the case everywhere. But it is here. And I think the importance of recognizing hospitals and nursing homes as major potential transmission vectors ought to be self-evident after the way Governor Cuomo screwed the pooch with his nursing home orders. That is why I take the precautions of avoiding nursing homes and people I know that work out at the local beef plant.
I also try my darnedest to maintain a respectful social distance of six feet; it’s not so much that I’m worried about getting sick, or making others sick, but because contrary to popular opinion here, I’m not out flaunting my bravery and trying to make people uncomfortable to prove a point. To me, it’s more a simple matter of etiquette.
Anyone who tells you I wish to do as I please without consequence, anyone who tells you that I have made no changes or adjustments to my life to account for CoViD-19, is a liar.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:42 amWell, do you mean feckless in the weak or ineffective context, yes absolutely. Or are you talking about the worthless or irresponsible context, yes absolutely. Coward, yes absolutely.
Now, two things can be true, feckless coward AND a-hole.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:43 am53. Shows you can’t read, in addition to being unable reason. And, yah, your the biggest pWessy and coward I’ve seen revealed in a dog’s age.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:44 amPunctuation is the silent killer, Colonel.
urbanleftbehind (7eed6f) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:45 amThey say “you must wear a mask”
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:48 amIs it really that much of an ask?
If they say that there’s danger
Make like teh Lone Ranger
‘fore yer nutted like sheep by a Basque
61. Speaking of The Lone Ranger, I think there is an Uncanny-Valley factor in my hostility to masks. I ran into someone at the grocery store the other day that approached me to visit, and he freaked me out because he was wearing one of those stupid art deco cloth masks and sunglasses. I had no idea it was a close friend of mine until he started talking, and I wasn’t too thrilled when he laughed as he could tell how uncomfortable I was.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:51 amYou should go home and cower in your closet.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:55 amMost say this all started with bats
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:55 amHits hardest where folks livin’ like rats
If housing’s high density
It’ll hit with intensity
And you’ll be one of teh stats
63. Okay, Karen. 😉
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:56 amOkay, coward.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:57 am66. Get a load of this, people! I’m a coward because I’m not afraid of a virus! LOLOLOL
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:59 amRagPierre traded beret for a fez
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:05 am“It looks much more stylish” he sez
He began sneakin’ Sally
Through the darkest of alleys
Lost it all to Dirty Sanchez
Gryph —- the reason someone should wear a mask is not so much to protect *themselves*, but to protect *other people* from the possibility that they are infectious without knowing it.
Do you also object to laws requiring people to wear clothing covering their genitals when in public? Or is it somehow oppressive to require you to take steps to make sure you don’t accidentally infect others with a fatal disease, but not oppressive to require you to hide body parts some people find offensive?
aphrael (7962af) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:05 amNo, honey. YOU are a coward because of the choices you’ve made that put you on a dangerous fringe, and your denial of reality, and waving of your red shirt in signalling what a pure patriot you are.
Living in the real world requires guts. You’ve demonstrated you lack guts. Hence, you are a coward by your own revelations.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:05 am> If states would attempt to educate people on this, rather than issuing orders, there would be far less resistance.
If states would attempt to educate people on why they shouldn’t murder each other, rather than issuing orders prohibiting murder, there would be far less resistance.
aphrael (7962af) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:06 amThree things…insouciant.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:08 amAll sorts of good band names comin’ out of this… Teh Murder Hornets… the Screamin’ KARENs… teh Karen Terriers…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:09 am> The curve is flattened
For now. But if we don’t do the things necessary to prevent outbreaks and contain the ones we can’t prevent, the curve won’t stay flattened, we’ll just move right back into exponential growth.
The curve only stays flattened if we keep R0 low. We got R0 low through a massive shelter in place effort that severely damaged our economy. We *keep* R0 low by maintaining social distancing, wearing masks, and implementing testing (to discover new infections) and contact tracing (to help ringfence those infections) on a large scale. If we don’t do those things, then R0 rises again, and we might as well never have sheltered in place at all.
aphrael (7962af) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:10 am> That is why I take the precautions of avoiding nursing homes and people I know that work out at the local beef plant.
That precaution avails you *not the slightest* if the people who work at the local beef plant go to a movie and sit near someone you aren’t avoiding.
aphrael (7962af) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:11 amHoi Polloi — Possibly.
There’s evidence that aerosol particles generated by coughing and sneezing can travel over 30 meters. https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0546/v1
So the question becomes, how many of these particles are needed for an infection?
aphrael (7962af) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:19 am75. And that is a risk I am willing to take in the here and now. I don’t have the option of taking it since our movie theater is closed down but given the statistical likelihood of getting sick and then dying of CoViD-19, which for me is vanishingly small, I would.
70. I am not on a “dangerous fringe.” I have calculated the risk of my behavior and accepted it. You are taunting me because you disagree with me, as is your right as well. As for your insistence on calling me a coward, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:27 amIt’s “never leave your buddies behind”,
nk (1d9030) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:28 amFor people who still have all of their mind.
The double entendre
Is for those who are smarter
Than to spurn meter while focused on rhyme.
69. That comparison is so utterly ridiculous, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t deserve a response. To compare wearing a mask to a matter of etiquette suggests that wearing masks will become a permanent diktat. Are you okay with that? Cause I am not.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:28 amRagspierre wrote:
Assumes facts not in evidence. Since they were under stay-at-home orders, and not requests, you cannot know how they would have behaved if under requests. More, since those in the diner were a subset of the general population, the ones who chose not to obey the orders, the fact that most were not wearing face masks is not necessarily representative of the population in general.
The population of Douglas County is roughly 67,000 souls. Even at full capacity, the diner could not have served more than a small percentage of the county. It doesn’t really tell us how many would have behaved differently had the state been making suggestions rather than orders.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:32 amGryph either can’t understanding how an infectious disease spreads with a 14-28 day infection period, and large numbers of asymptomatic spreaders, or he understands all of this, and still spouts the nonsense.
Joe Walsh had an album about this in ’76.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:34 amSome say they’re the lowest of lows
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:48 amBut you can’t judge a man by his clothes
For a lawyer will spin
Like a snake sheds its skin
Like a clown wears the nose of Bozo
non sequitur
nk (1d9030) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:57 amproduct of fuzzy thinking
classic haiku
I am not on a “dangerous fringe.” I have calculated the risk of my behavior and accepted it. You are taunting me because you disagree with me, as is your right as well. As for your insistence on calling me a coward, I do not think it means what you think it means.
But we’ve already established that you can’t read. Nobody mentioned “premeditated murder” but you in a response (above).
You are on a dangerous fringe, and you damn well know it, by your insistence on your crazy notion of “freedom” and what’s constitutional or not.
You can (stupidly) accept your risk at driving 120 mph on the Rooster Poot street (singular), but you cannot accept the risks for anyone else.
You are a selfish, careless, coward.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 9:58 am80. Just more BS. I pointed out the lack of evidence for your loopy claim, and your responded with “assumes facts not in evidence”!
Cray-cray…!!!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 10:01 amFrom Dr. Fauci’s testimony this morning:
Yesterday he told the NYT in advance of testifying today:
If wearing a face mask in public would help limit the possibility of outbreaks and needless suffering and death, why wouldn’t you? If there is an increased risk of a setback by not maintaining social distancing measures when in public, why take that risk?
Dana (0feb77) — 5/12/2020 @ 10:25 am86. Firstly Dana, I maintain social distancing protocol because it’s a polite thing to do. I don’t like it, but I accept it as a point of etiquette.
I draw the line at wearing a face mask in public because I don’t accept the premise that it helps limit the possibility of anything except me recognizing people I know. The idea that it might help prevent the spread of a virus that isn’t likely to make me sick in the first place is an awfully weak-tea argument.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 10:45 amThis is hilarious.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 10:49 amMild language alert.
Four things, gowl.
Five, self obsessed.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/12/2020 @ 10:55 am89. Uh, yeah. Self-ownership is actually the foundation of natural rights theory, Klink. What you call non-self-obsessed, I call all too willing to throw one’s rights away in the name of illusory safety.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/12/2020 @ 10:58 am#2, #3, #5.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/12/2020 @ 11:08 amIt was just the day before yesterday that you were a-rompin’ and a-stompin’ around calling everyone…including Dana(!)…cowards who were “paralyzed by fear” and cowering from a virus that you stated unequivocally was NEITHER deadly OR debilitating.
If you deny any of that, I’ve got your crap and will happily provide the links to your comments.
You are a fringe nutter, and a moral coward.
I’d LOVE for you to open Gryph’s Sandwich Slingery and Alt-right Bier Hall, featuring road-kill de jure and diseased mutton on toast, with no hot water and a strict “no masks, Karen” policy.
Do it! Show us all how “free” you are!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 11:46 amL.A. County ‘with all certainty’ will keep stay-at-home orders in place through July
Los Angeles County’s stay-at-home orders will “with all certainty” be extended for the next three months, county Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer acknowledged during a Board of Supervisors meeting on Tuesday.
Los Angeles County last week loosened some stay-at-home rules, reopening some trials and allowing some retails to begin curbside services with social distancing rules. Beaches are set to reopen on Wednesday.
But Ferrer warned Tuesday further loosening will be slow given that coronavirus deaths and cases keep rising in the county.
Ferrer said that would only change if there was a “dramatic change to the virus and tools at hand.”
“Our hope is that by using the data, we’d be able to slowly lift restrictions over the next three months,” she said. But without widely available therapeutic testing for the coronavirus or rapid at-home tests that would allow people to test themselves daily, it seems unlikely that restrictions would be completely eased.
Ferrer made the comments as the board debated whether to extend the county’s eviction moratorium for one to three months.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:06 pm…….
As other California regions have seen a decline in the number of reported infections and COVID-19-related deaths, L.A. County, the state’s most populous, continues to see growth on both fronts. The county reported Monday an additional 566 people who tested positive for the virus, and an additional 39 deaths, bringing the death toll to 1,570. L.A. County’s death count accounts for more than half of the state’s total.
……
After rescinding stay-at-home orders, Riverside County reports rise in coronavirus cases
A tale of two counties. It will be interesting to see what Riverside looks like after a couple of weeks.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:11 pmDid I miss this?
Dana (0feb77) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:15 pmGryph, again, why are you more ok with a permanent diktat requiring covering genitals than you are with a temporary order requiring you cover your mouth to prevent the spread of respiratory droplets which could, without your awareness of the risk, kill people?
aphrael (7962af) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:28 pmGryph, the problem is that you would be assuming the risk on behalf of every individual you interact with. The danger is not just that you might get sick, it is that you might also get other people sick.
Do we as citizens not have a moral obligation to not put each other at a greater risk of death?
aphrael (7962af) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:33 pmRagspierre, to be fair, i analogized wandering around maskless and murder in my sarcastic and flippant response to Dana. A better analogy would be to reckless endangerment.
If i do not know whether i am a carrier of a disease which is known to kill seven out of every thousand people who contract it, exposing people to my respiratory droplets is recklessly endangering them, and if they die as a result, i am morally guilty of murder.
aphrael (7962af) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:37 pmMaybe, it was part of many screeds about how wearing a mask, stay at home orders, and people who believe that CV-19 is deadly and debilitating are screaming mimi’s, or cowards as stated. It’s towards the end.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:38 pmGryph, again, why are you more ok with a permanent diktat requiring covering genitals than you are with a temporary order requiring you cover your mouth
Embrace the power of and…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:41 pm95. To Dana; from Gryph 10 May
“If you’re not okay with businesses being forced to close (as I am most certainly not, in case you hadn’t noticed), then just say so. As long as you’re okay with it, I’ll call it out as the cowardice it is.”
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:43 pmLos Angeles County’s stay-at-home orders will “with all certainty” be extended for the next three months, county Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer acknowledged during a Board of Supervisors meeting on Tuesday.
Absolutely nuts!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:45 pmThe whole Gryph rant, in context.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:48 pmIf Democrats want to be the Party of Clampdown and No Jobs For You, we’ll see how that works out.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:49 pm102. When you are responsible for the lives and future well-being of millions…and you have a clue…you get back to us with your “nuts”.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:50 pmIf Republicans want to be the party of open up and damn the numbers that will die, I’m ok with that.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 12:59 pmI’d think many of them would be wearing paper bags.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:13 pm> If Democrats want to be the Party of Clampdown and No Jobs For You, we’ll see how that works out.
> If Republicans want to be the party of open up and damn the numbers that will die, I’m ok with that.
because it’s obviously more important for people in public office to be concerned with how to spin the situation to hurt their political enemies and benefit themselves politically than it is for people in public office to be concerned with saving lives and protecting the economy.
*any* focus on the political outcome and how decisions help one group of politicians or the other is, IMO, worthy of contempt at the moment.
aphrael (7962af) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:15 pmI bet paper bags are not useful.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:16 pmaphrael, absent any evidence to the contrary, I’m of the opinion that a public health official is not oblivious to the facts of both 1) risks of the disease, and 2) economic harms. So I am willing to take their recommendations at face value, subject to amendment.
That seems right.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:20 pmTrump deems farmworkers ‘essential’ but not safety rules for them. That could threaten the food supply
The Trump administration has deemed the millions of people who are cutting lettuce, picking cherries, packing peaches and otherwise getting food from farm to table to be “essential workers” but is doing little to keep them healthy during the pandemic.
The lack of federal action has left state and industry leaders scrambling to shield their farmworkers from the coronavirus. As harvest season ramps up, farmers across several major produce states have installed more hand-washing stations, instructed workers to keep their distance and provided face masks — but those efforts have been inconsistent and largely voluntary.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:23 pm……
American fruit and vegetable growers, who are heavily reliant on migrant and immigrant labor, are taking note of what’s happening in meatpacking and processing plants as they try to avoid a similar catastrophe.
……
The threat of widespread outbreaks like those that have struck meat plants is not a hypothetical concern. There are already outbreaks involving farmworkers in several states. In New York, one of the largest coronavirus clusters in the state is a greenhouse farm where 169 out of 340 workers have tested positive. In Washington, one large orchard recently revealed that more than 50 of the 70 workers it had tested for Covid-19 tested positive, including many who were asymptomatic. Both the New York and Washington farms began testing workers after some showed symptoms. In North Carolina, a strawberry grower temporarily closed after eight workers tested positive. In Monterey County, Calif., a major berry growing area, nearly one in four coronavirus cases is an agricultural worker, according to local officials.
…..
Most farmworkers live in close quarters, often sleeping in dormitory-style rooms with several bunk beds. They travel from field to field on tightly-packed buses and often stick together for errands like buying groceries or going to the bank.
….
It can also be difficult to maintain CDC’s recommendation of six feet of distance in the fields, depending on which crop is being harvested. Workers who pick tomatoes, for example, usually pick fruit into their own individual buckets and then run their haul to a common collection point, with speed being important since they are paid by the pound.
……
It can be even harder for workers to keep their distance in packing operations, where it’s not uncommon for them to be placed elbow-to-elbow sorting and arranging fresh produce to be shipped out.
……
*any* focus on the political outcome and how decisions help one group of politicians or the other is, IMO, worthy of contempt at the moment.
Bureaucrats effectively ruining the lives of tens of millions of people deserve my contempt.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:27 pm>Most farmworkers live in close quarters, often sleeping in dormitory-style rooms with several bunk beds. They travel from field to field on tightly-packed buses
perfect conditions for spread, a lot like the migrant worker quarters in singapore.
aphrael (7962af) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:28 pmTrump promotes conspiracy theory accusing MSNBC’s Joe Scarborough of murder
Donald Trump on Tuesday explicitly suggested MSNBC’s Joe Scarborough had committed murder, prompting the morning cable news host to urge the president in real time to stop watching his program “for the sake of America.”
Following a segment on the network’s “Morning Joe” talk show that featured discussion of upcoming Senate testimony by Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious disease expert, as well as critical comments from Scarborough regarding the White House’s coronavirus response, Trump lashed out in a tweet posted just before 7 a.m.
“When will they open a Cold Case on the Psycho Joe Scarborough matter in Florida. Did he get away with murder? Some people think so,” Trump wrote. “Why did he leave Congress so quietly and quickly? Isn’t it obvious? What’s happening now? A total nut job!”
…..
Scarborough at the time called that provocation by the president “extraordinarily cruel,” and issued a similar on-air response Tuesday after being alerted to Trump’s inflammatory tweet while broadcasting live.
“For your sake, as I’ve been saying for years — Donald, for your sake, and for the sake of America, you need to stop watching our show, OK? It’s not good for you. I think that might be why you go out and, like — you’re distracted. You’re tweeting so much,” Scarborough said.
“Why don’t you turn off the television, and why don’t you start working, OK?” he continued. “You do your job, we’ll do ours, and America will be much better off for that. Just go. Turn off the TV, Donald.”
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:31 pm…….
Bureaucrats effectively ruining the lives of tens of millions of people deserve my contempt.
Nutz.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:31 pmHydroxychloroquine shows no benefit against coronavirus in N.Y. study
A decades-old malaria medicine touted by the president as a coronavirus treatment showed no benefit for patients hospitalized in New York.
There was also no noticeable advantage for patients that took the drug paired with the antibiotic azithromycin, according to hotly anticipated research published Monday in the Journal of the American Medical Association.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:35 pm….
Previous trials had suggested the drug can cause serious heart problems, especially when paired with azithromycin, and the latest study backed up those findings. Researchers said that patients receiving both drugs together were more likely to experience cardiac arrest than those who received one or neither of the therapies.
……
Trump is getting trounced among a crucial constituency: The haters
President Donald Trump is losing a critical constituency: voters who see two choices on the ballot — and hate them both.
Unlike in 2016, when a large group of voters who disliked both Trump and Hillary Clinton broke sharply for Trump, the opposite is happening now, according to public polling and private surveys conducted by Republicans and Democrats alike.
It’s a significant and often underappreciated group of voters. Of the nearly 20 percent of voters who disliked both Clinton and Trump in 2016, Trump outperformed Clinton by about 17 percentage points, according to exit polls.
Four years later, that same group — including a mix of Bernie Sanders supporters, other Democrats, disaffected Republicans and independents — strongly prefers Biden, the polling shows. The former vice president leads Trump by more than 40 percentage points among that group, which accounts for nearly a quarter of registered voters, according to a Monmouth University poll last week.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:40 pm……
Maybe you join, Haiku, with our fringe nutter cohort here, from his 10 May hit parade…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:57 pmWho benefits from the country burning as the economy implodes? We are not victims of a virus, Aph. We are victims of conscious, purposeful decisions made by politicians.—Gryph (emphasis me).
Politico… NYT… WaPo… HuffPo… CNN… Vox…
These used to be derided entities Before Trump. Signs and wonders…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:58 pmUnlucky Pierre…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 1:58 pmHeh…!!!
NOW Fox is derided in the era of the Orange Raccoon…!!!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 2:03 pmPurposeful decisions which will turn out to be worth it to save two million lives.
aphrael (7962af) — 5/12/2020 @ 2:08 pmAh, but we are assured that CV19 is NEITHER deadly or debilitating. To say otherwise means you are paralyzed by fear…doncha know…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 2:11 pmaphrael wrote:
Actually, unless actual harm — demonstrable harm, not just personal offense — to others can be proven, I’m not certain how we can require people to cover their genitals in public.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 2:52 pm124… wait for the chorus… https://youtu.be/UjKeiZLEWsM
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 2:58 pmPurposeful decisions which will turn out to be worth it to save two million lives.
They had to burn the country down, turn it to ash to save it.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 3:02 pm116. The theory is that you also need to use zinc or have it present n the blood.
Also did anybody get just azithromycin?
Sammy Finkelman (375edc) — 5/12/2020 @ 3:11 pmRagspierre wrote:
Given that Gryph had read Ragspierre’s comments, I’d say it has been proven that he can read. Perhaps Gryph doesn’t read things like an (ambulance chasing?) attorney would, but that would simply make him a normal American.
Given that Ragspierre appears to believe that the government can and should have the right to pass regulations which override our constitutional rights in times of emergency or public danger, having just defined Gryph — and, presumably me as well — as “on a dangerous fringe,” does he believe that the government should take some sort of action against him (and me)?
How, one might ask, does Ragspierre define ‘coward’ here? Merriam-Webster defines coward as “one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity.” We don’t know Gryph by anything other than his comments here, but at least this far I haven’t seen anything which would fall under the definition of “shows disgraceful fear or timidity.” Given that the worst thing that could happen to a commenter here is that others might hurt his feelings, and Gryph keeps coming back for more, he appears to be willing to endure that worst thing.
Rather, it is Ragspierre who is saying that the government must force us, through the police power of the state, to comply with certain demands because other people fear that they would have a greater risk of contracting COVID-19. We do not know if Ragspierre himself is consumed with this fear, so we cannot label him, personally, as a coward, but he is defending a position driven by fear.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 3:18 pm@127-They did, see-
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 3:30 pmAssociation of Treatment With Hydroxychloroquine or Azithromycin With In-Hospital Mortality in Patients With COVID-19 in New York State
In adjusted Cox proportional hazards models, compared with patients receiving neither drug, there were no significant differences in mortality for patients receiving hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin (HR, 1.35 [95% CI, 0.76-2.40]), hydroxychloroquine alone (HR, 1.08 [95% CI, 0.63-1.85]), or azithromycin alone (HR, 0.56 [95% CI, 0.26-1.21]).
I don’t want to look at your junk, but if I had a choice between someone wearing pants, or a mask, it’s safer if you wear a mask. I don’t want to sit on the park bench after you do, and if you’re driving and have cloth or perforated seats, you may want to put down a towel.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/12/2020 @ 3:33 pmaphrael wrote:
Some 33.5 million people have been thrown out of work by this and, noting that average wages rose by 8.9% — IIRC — in April, it shows that the majority of job losses were among those at the lower end of the economic spectrum, the people who were already living paycheck-to-paycheck. Not all of those jobs will come back after this feces storm is over, as many small businesses are already declaring bankruptcy.
We will never know how many lives were saved — it could be as low as zero — but, eventually we will know how many people remain unemployed in August and September, we will know how many people saw their homes go into foreclosure, how many are evicted for non-payment of rent, how many have their vehicles repossessed, and how many wind up on welfare and food stamps.
My wife and I passed a small subdivision built off of state Route 52, next to the Bluegrass Army Depot outside Richmond; just a year ago, this subdivision was nothing but a pasture for cows. There are about 25 homes in this subdivision, and when we passed, around 3:20 PM EDT, several of the driveways had automobiles parked in them. It made me wonder: how many of those people, all of whom had been in their homes for less than a year, have already missed a mortgage payment?
The question becomes obvious: at what point does saving an unknowable number of lives outweigh throwing dozens of millions of people into poverty? Is saving just one life worth that? How about ten lives, or a thousand? Is saving, say, ten lives in the city by the bay worth having another 1,000 or 10,000 there pooping on the sidewalks because they have no homes?
Saying that something is “worth it” means, inter alia, a quantification of the exchange.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 3:44 pmThe retired Commandant of Stalag 13 wrote:
I’m pretty sure that sitting on a towel is Expected Behavior at nudist resorts. 🙂
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 3:49 pmRags has his pierre in a snit
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 3:53 pmHis hatred of Gryph will not quit
He’s mad as a hatter
But it doesn’t matter
’cause Gryph just don’t give a sh1t!
Klink has his reasons for not wanting people to sit on benches…
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=9OVE2_1588957912
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 4:05 pmLet’s start charging death cultists who do business unsafely or protest irresponsibly with attempted murder of every man, woman and child in a twenty or thirty mile radius.
And having threatened countless others with great bodily harm, and there being a substantial likelihood that they will do so again if released, deny them bail.
Dave (1bb933) — 5/12/2020 @ 4:14 pmHe’s letting his
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 4:19 pmfreakfascist flag fly!Given that Ragspierre appears to believe that the government can and should have the right to pass regulations which override our constitutional rights in times of emergency or public danger, having just defined Gryph — and, presumably me as well — as “on a dangerous fringe,” does he believe that the government should take some sort of action against him (and me)?
Well, we’ve been over this ground to know that you know you are just lying here.
You keep referring to constitutional rights you have that are being “overridden”. For the sake of yet another demonstration, name them.
I’ll be happy to agree where I can. I’ll also happily show what a fringe nutter you ELECT to be where I can.
As to taking any action against you or the other nutters here, I’d certainly heartily endorse any such action you had the guts to undertake in violation of the law. But I think we’re all safe there. BTW, do you endorse the NEITHER deadly or debilitating declaration of Gryph?
The fringe you’ve already staked out has had you roundly accusing me of being a fascist, and now an ambulance chaser. FYI, I’ve never chased an ambulance (they are WAY too fast), and never handled a personal injury case.
So, you go!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 4:35 pmThe question becomes obvious: at what point does saving an unknowable number of lives outweigh throwing dozens of millions of people into poverty? Is saving just one life worth that? How about ten lives, or a thousand? Is saving, say, ten lives in the city by the bay worth having another 1,000 or 10,000 there pooping on the sidewalks because they have no homes?
Nice straw man rolling there, DanaInK-Y!
Tell you what; when YOU are in a position to kill or disable people, you get back to us. Because right now, you’re just another nutter chanting the same old chin music we’ve heard so many times before, and it was never that great a tune.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 4:41 pm🙂 Why, it seems that I have angered the great Ragspierre!
For someone who insists on such great precision in language, so as to parse it to death, perhaps I should point out my direct quote:
“(A)mbulance chasing?” including the question mark means that it is not an accusation, but simply a question, one designed as an insult, certainly enough, but it isn’t an accusation.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 4:51 pmSure it was an accusation, or it wouldn’t be an insult. That’s how you meant it, and people can read. You aren’t nearly as bright as you think.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 4:59 pmMany governors win bipartisan support for handling of pandemic, but some Republicans face blowback over reopening efforts
Governors collectively have been winning widespread praise from the public for their handling of the coronavirus pandemic, often with the kind of bipartisan approval that has eluded President Trump. But a large-scale Washington Post-Ipsos poll finds that some Republican governors who have embraced reopening their states are struggling to achieve that consensus.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:07 pm……
The contrast is widest in two states won by Trump in 2016. In Ohio, 86 percent of adults say they approve of the way Gov. Mike DeWine (R), who moved aggressively to close down his state and has been cautious about lifting the restrictions, has dealt with the crisis. In Georgia, 39 percent of adults approve of the performance of Gov. Brian Kemp (R), who moved less swiftly than some other governors to mitigate the spread and has been in the forefront of reopening the economy there.
……
Overall, 71 percent of Americans approve of their governors’ performances, with majority approval from people in both major parties. A much smaller 43 percent approve of Trump’s efforts. In Trump’s case, assessments are dramatically partisan, with more than 8 in 10 Republicans and Republican-leaning independents approving of his handling of the crisis and almost 9 in 10 Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents disapproving.
…..
A 74 percent majority of Americans overall say the United States should keep trying to slow the spread of the coronavirus even if it means keeping many businesses closed, while 25 percent say the country should open up businesses and get the economy going again, even if the result would be more infections.
….
Abbott, DeSantis and Kemp face blowback for reopening their states on a faster schedule. Nationally, 56 percent of Americans say their state government has handled restrictions on businesses “about right,” with 28 percent saying restrictions have been lifted “too quickly” and 16 percent saying they have not been lifted quickly enough. But nearly half of Floridians (48 percent) and majorities in both Texas (59 percent) and Georgia (65 percent) say their state government is “lifting restrictions too quickly.”
……
Ragspierre angrily wrote:
And:
Given that you appear to believe that going outside unnecessarily, or failing to wear a medical mask, or going to a dine-in restaurant, though apparently not a grocery store, poses a threat to the lives and health of others, it would seem that you believe that I am in a “position to kill or disable people” every time I pass the boundaries of my property.
Well, I’ll tell you what: just this afternoon my wife and I left the farm to put down a deposit with our swimming pool contractor, and, heaven forfend! my wife had only one, not two masks in her vehicle. So you go right ahead, big guy, and call the Kentucky State Police. Post #7 is the closest, and their number is (859) 623-2404. The state snitch line is 833-597-2337, or, if you prefer to snitch online, you can do that at https://secure.kentucky.gov/formservices/Labor/KYSAFER. Go right ahead, tough guy, put your money where your mouth is.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:15 pmMost Americans Say Federal Government Has Primary Responsibility for COVID-19 Testing
….[A] majority of Americans (61%) say it is primarily the federal government’s responsibility to make sure there are enough COVID-19 tests in order to safely lift the restrictions.
Fewer (37%) say it is mainly the responsibility of state governments to ensure there is an adequate supply of tests.
…..
…..There is a growing partisan gap in perceptions of the threat that COVID-19 poses to the health of the U.S. population. And Republicans, unlike Democrats, now express less positive views of how well state and local officials – and even widely praised public health officials, such as those at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) – are handling the outbreak.
….
Currently, 68% of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents say public health officials such as those at the CDC have done an excellent or good job in dealing with the outbreak, down from 84% nearly two months ago. Positive ratings for public health officials among Democrats and Democratic leaners are virtually unchanged at 75%.
…..
….[W]hile nearly identical majorities of Republicans (88%) and Democrats (89%) say the outbreak is a major threat to the economy, Democrats are now nearly 40 percentage points more likely than Republicans to say it is major threat to the health of the population (82% of Democrats vs. 43% of Republicans).
….
[F]ewer Americans view the coronavirus outbreak as a major threat to their personal finances and health than to the nation’s economy and to the health of the population.
….
The public is much less positive in evaluations of how the news media and Donald Trump have responded to the coronavirus outbreak. Fewer than half of Americans (46%) say the news media have done a good or excellent job in responding to the outbreak; 53% say they have done a fair or poor job.
An even larger majority of Americans say Donald Trump is doing an only fair (17%) or poor job (42%) responding to the COVID-19 outbreak. About four-in-ten Americans (41%) say Trump is doing an excellent or good job responding to the outbreak.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:16 pm…….
Let’s start charging death cultists who do business unsafely or protest irresponsibly with attempted murder of every man, woman and child in a twenty or thirty mile radius.
Yes, absolutely. They’re probably the same Russian assets who brought it in and spread it in the first place, and they’re still at it, to kill as many Americans as possible. But first, we drain their blood for the vaccine which they most certainly must have been given in order for themselves to be safe while doing their murderous work. If they survive that, the draining of their blood, then we try them and execute them.
nk (1d9030) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:21 pmTo reopen, Washington state restaurants will have to keep log of customers to aid in contact tracing
With eight Washington counties now approved to move to Phase 2 under Gov. Jay Inslee’s four-phase plan to reopen the state, the governor’s office on Monday released a set of requirements restaurants will have to comply with if they want to reopen for dine-in service.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:22 pm…..
Notably, the 13 criteria that restaurants will have to adhere to in order to reopen for dine-in service includes a stipulation that they “create a daily log of customers and maintain that daily log for 30 days, including telephone/email contact information, and time in.”
……
…..Bar seating is not permitted.
….
Given that you appear to believe that going outside unnecessarily, or failing to wear a medical mask, or going to a dine-in restaurant, though apparently not a grocery store, poses a threat to the lives and health of others, it would seem that you believe that I am in a “position to kill or disable people” every time I pass the boundaries of my property.
No. All that’s just another of your straw men. You were going to tell me about all your abused constitutional rights. Waiting…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:27 pmMake America Selfish
……While most Americans continue to tell pollsters they are worried about re-opening the country, a substantial number have simply decided they are done with it. And by done with it, they mean done with it all: the social distancing, the wearing of masks, treating the pandemic as a BFD. We’re not talking about the protests or the politics here, but rather the jail-break-like decision by millions to defy the quarantines.
…..
So when the president declares that Americans are “WARRIORS,” he redefines the word to mean a willingness to risk getting sick and to infect others. That chorus has been taken up by other “thought leaders” who conflate American Greatness with going to Arby’s; and who seem to have confused recklessness with courage, and freedom with me-firstism.
……
But the problem now is not the lack of cops, it’s the erosion of a culture that calls us all to common purpose and sacrifice. In other words, a culture bound by a social contract that says we are in this together.
Conservatives used to understand this. Insisting on responsible self government is not the opposite of freedom, it is the essential predicate. Freedom-oriented conservatives used to argue that individuals and non-governmental institutions would act in their rational self interest and would do a better and more effective job than bureaucratic top-down fiats.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:27 pm……
But this requires responsible and credible moral leadership to reinforce responsible conduct.
……
Dana, at 124: thank you for that consistent stand on principle.
How do you explain that a rounding error of every jurisdiction in the country does so require and why do you think there are no protests against it?
aphrael (7962af) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:28 pmThe state snitch line is 833-597-2337, or, if you prefer to snitch online, you can do that at https://secure.kentucky.gov/formservices/Labor/KYSAFER. Go right ahead, tough guy, put your money where your mouth is.
Impossible, since you gutlessly provide none of the necessary information. But your continuing use of “snitch” is so instructive!
You really would fit in nicely with the Bloods or Crips, culturally at least!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:30 pmSociety has the right to pass laws based on morality and aesthetics and not only based on utility. Emphasis on aesthetics. Nine out of ten Americans these days should strategically cover their ugly selves.
nk (1d9030) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:38 pmYou aren’t nearly as bright as you think.
Diagnosis: low self-esteem.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:38 pmHaiku is projecting.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:41 pmRagspierre wrote:
Our esteemed host has my email address; I hereby authorize him to release it to you. My name, photo and home county can be found on my Twitter profile.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:46 pmAt Senate Hearing, Government Experts Paint Bleak Picture of the Pandemic
Two of the federal government’s top health officials painted a grim picture of the months ahead on Tuesday, warning a Senate panel that the coronavirus pandemic was far from contained, just a day after President Trump declared that “we have met the moment and we have prevailed.”
The officials — Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the nation’s top infectious disease expert, and Dr. Robert R. Redfield, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention — predicted dire consequences if the nation reopened its economy too soon, noting that the United States still lacked critical testing capacity and the ability to trace the contacts of those infected.
…..
They appeared to rattle the markets, driving the S&P 500 down as investors weighed the potential of a second wave of infections against Mr. Trump’s promises that the economy would bounce back once stay-at-home restrictions were lifted. Worrisome reports of spikes in infections in countries like China, South Korea and Germany, where lockdowns had been lifted, seemed to confirm the American officials’ fears.
Here in Washington, Dr. Fauci and Dr. Redfield, who have been barred by the White House from appearing before the Democratic-controlled House, drew a very different picture of the state of the pandemic than the president, who has cheered for a swift reopening, championed protesters demanding an end to the quarantine and predicted the beginning of a “transition to greatness.”
Dr. Fauci told senators that coronavirus therapeutics and a vaccine would almost certainly not be ready in time for the new school year, that outbreaks in other parts of the world would surely reach the United States and that humility in the face of an unpredictable killer meant erring on the side of caution, even with children, who have fared well but have recently shown new vulnerabilities.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:48 pm……
Some Republicans sounded their own upbeat note. Mr. Alexander proclaimed testing in the United States “impressive” and “enough to begin going back to work.” Senator Mike Braun, Republican of Indiana, agreed, saying in an interview, “I have great optimism that we won’t backslide.”
……
aphrael wrote:
That I can see no necessary or legitimate reason for such a law does not mean that most people obey it only because it’s the law. Clothing, though minimal in some places, is a universal constant on this planet, and departure from the cultural norm may be shocking. I simply don’t believe that it should be legally mandated.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:51 pmIn court filing, FBI accidentally reveals name of Saudi official suspected of directing support for 9/11 hijackers
The FBI inadvertently revealed one of the U.S. government’s most sensitive secrets about the Sept. 11 terror attacks: the identity of a mysterious Saudi Embassy official in Washington who agents suspected had directed crucial support to two of the al-Qaida hijackers.
The disclosure came in a new declaration filed in federal court by a senior FBI official in response to a lawsuit brought by families of 9/11 victims that accuses the Saudi government of complicity in the terrorist attacks.
The declaration was filed last month but unsealed late last week. …..
…..
It also shines a light on the extraordinary efforts by top Trump administration officials in recent months to prevent internal documents about the issue from ever becoming public.
“This shows there is a complete government cover-up of the Saudi involvement,” said Brett Eagleson, a spokesman for the 9/11 families whose father was killed in the attacks. “It demonstrates there was a hierarchy of command that’s coming from the Saudi Embassy to the Ministry of Islamic Affairs [in Los Angeles] to the hijackers.”
……
Describing the request by lawyers for the 9/11 families to depose that individual under oath, Sanborn’s declaration says in one instance that it involves “any and all records referring to or relating to Jarrah.”
The reference is to Mussaed Ahmed al-Jarrah, a mid-level Saudi Foreign Ministry official who was assigned to the Saudi Embassy in Washington, D.C., in 1999 and 2000. His duties apparently included overseeing the activities of Ministry of Islamic Affairs employees at Saudi-funded mosques and Islamic centers within the United States.
Relatively little is known about Jarrah, but according to former embassy employees, he reported to the Saudi ambassador in the United States (at the time Prince Bandar), and that he was later reassigned to the Saudi mission in Morocco. His current whereabouts are unknown but he is believed to be in Saudi Arabia.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/12/2020 @ 5:57 pm……
My name, photo and home county can be found
Aw, fer …! Get a grip, you old codgers! And some Metamucil.
nk (1d9030) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:02 pmRagspierre wrote:
A Twitter user styling herself Roz al Gul wrote:
We still don’t know who betrayed Anne Frank and her family to the Gestapo.
But, whoever the snitch was, he was following the orders of his Führer, and obeying the regulations of the Nazi occupying authority in Amsterdam. “There are Jooooos hiding in that attic!” It would seem, to judge from your comments here, that you would have approved.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:07 pmBut, whoever the snitch was, he was following the orders of his Führer, and obeying the regulations of the Nazi occupying authority in Amsterdam. “There are Jooooos hiding in that attic!” It would seem, to judge from your comments here, that you would have approved.
And HERE is where you prove…again…that you are a nutter out on the fringe. Amazing moral disjunction here!!! I’m for preserving life, and you’re making stupid arguments about whether the economic costs are worth a few lives here and there!
Thank you SO much for this demonstration…!!!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:18 pmhttps://hotair.com/archives/john-s-2/2020/05/12/kevin-james-short-film-mocks-coronavirus-minders/
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:18 pmSTILL waiting for that list of constitutional lights you’ve had abused. Tick-tock…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:21 pmRoz al Ghoul forgets that every non mask wearer is a potential threat to my life, and not only would I be justified in snitching on them as an act of self defense, I would be justified in killing them on the spot in self defense.
[Hey, if our esteemed member from Kentucky can enunciate extreme positions, so can I.😈]
Kishnevi (7fbd73) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:21 pmWhile you are thinking up your next deflection…
1. do you agree with Gryph that CV19 is neither deadly OR disabling?
2. do you subscribe to his loopy claim that our real enemy is PURPOSEFUL POLITICIANS?
Now, hurry with that list.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:27 pmOT this thread…
Kishnevi (7fbd73) — 5/12/2020 @ 6:31 pmMore Fun with Flynn
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/us-judge-puts-on-hold-justice-dept-move-to-dismiss-michael-flynns-guilty-plea-to-hear-outside-groups-challenges/2020/05/12/2fb4e356-949d-11ea-82b4-c8db161ff6e5_story.html
Dana from Kentucky continues to demonstrate Godwin’s Law.
Ripmurdock (70e093) — 5/12/2020 @ 7:36 pmHe is rebelling against The Matriarchy which has turned us all into mother hens. Ordinarily, I would welcome him as a co-combatant but this is a battle which promises only a Pyrrhic victory.
nk (1d9030) — 5/12/2020 @ 7:43 pmAs coronavirus roils the nation, Trump reverts to tactic of accusing foes of felonies
Good thing Trump has his priorities straight.
Ripmurdock (70e093) — 5/12/2020 @ 7:45 pmAs of just now, we’re behind Spain, Russia, and a bunch of other nations in testing on a per capita basis.
So, really, the Orange Raccoon has all kinds of time on his hands… No worries.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 7:58 pmSay…
Not to rub it in or anything, but I think Duh Donald is ol’ Dana’s president of choice.
Shouldn’t mr. president be manning the constitutional ramparts here?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:05 pmAll Americans who care about their country should be demanding Trump’s immediate resignation.
Dave (1bb933) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:13 pmI second that!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:17 pmbut I think Duh Donald is ol’ Dana’s president of choice.
No, the esteemed member from Kentucky chose Gary Johnson in the last go-round. Which I also did. Though he did believe Trump was a better choice than Hillary. Which I did not. (I did not think that Hillary was a better choice than Trump, mind you. I thought they were equally bad, albeit in different ways.)
Kishnevi (4d78f4) — 5/12/2020 @ 8:19 pmgfy stay at home commies
mg (8cbc69) — 5/12/2020 @ 10:48 pmWhat on earth has happened to the tenet of “consent of the governed”?
mg (8cbc69) — 5/13/2020 @ 2:23 ammg (8cbc69) — 5/13/2020 @ 2:23 am
Someone told me it is now “consent of the Governors.”
felipe (023cc9) — 5/13/2020 @ 2:39 am174. Sorry guys and gals (and screeching Karens). I had to step away for a bit.
To answer Aphrael’s question from up-thread, while I feel no terrible need to agitate against laws public banning nudity, I would be perfectly okay with their repeal. I would probably dress myself in the morning for no reason other than it’s what I’ve always done, but it seems a little disingenuous to make the comparison given the arguments for masks concerning “public safety.”
Gryph (08c844) — 5/13/2020 @ 2:58 am174. As for “consent of the governed?” Get real. That’s so gauche. That’s so 1700’s.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/13/2020 @ 2:58 amWhich part of constitutional republic, consent of the governed in which is expressed through elected representatives, don’t you understand?
lurker (d8c5bc) — 5/13/2020 @ 3:32 amI think it’s good to review the question, “What happened to the consent of the governed?”
Of course, it never meant…or could mean…the consent of each individual on a particular matter. That would not make for a government.
Read the polling up-thread. And ask yourselves, if the governed want to live like CV19 is not deadly and debilitating, what’s stopping them? Law enforcement can’t if there are enough.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/13/2020 @ 3:54 am179. Look at those protesters and then tell me we’re dealing with just a few fringe kooks. Okay. I can guess you’re thinking they’re a non-trivial group of fringe kooks.
But let’s remember something important here. When the founding fathers of our republic spoke of “consent of the governed,” perhaps 1/3 of the population at the time was on board with their rebellion. Roughly 1/3 of the people were indifferent and wished only to be left alone. And 1/3 of the population were loyalists. That is to say, they didn’t want to break from the crown.
And besides that, if you’re going to predicate my God-given rights on popular opinion, you can just kindly GFY.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/13/2020 @ 3:59 amAs for “consent of the governed?” Get real. That’s so gauche. That’s so 1700’s.
Yah, those 1700s b!tches dint have no, like, laws an’ rules and sh!t. They were free, dudes. Then the gov-ment had to ask them permission.
Of course, that’s the fantasy of careless, selfish, stupid children. It was never reality.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/13/2020 @ 4:01 am…if you’re going to predicate my God-given rights on popular opinion, you can just kindly GFY.
Aaaaaand we’re back to that lie. Nobody is trammeling your god-given rights, Moana.
How come you aren’t busy opening Gryphs Sandwich Slingery where the meat is never too fresh and the water is never hot?
Oh, and you’re dealing with a few fringe kooks…!!!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/13/2020 @ 4:06 am“nice symbol of cowardice, nerds,” I mockingly say to the people using oven mitts while I grab a piping hot pan out of the oven with my bare hands
lurker (d8c5bc) — 5/13/2020 @ 6:48 amBut seriously, Gryph, how sure are you that you’re so nearly invulnerable to COVID-19? I mean, and I’m no doctor so maybe I’m wrong — I hope I am — but I’d be surprised if the bronchial condition you describe doesn’t put you at considerably greater risk than you think.
Anyway, if you haven’t consulted a doctor about the COVID risk associated with your condidition, please do. I get that owning the libs is a precious reward practically beyond measure, but it’s really not worth dying for.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 5/13/2020 @ 6:52 amit’s amazing what a man will believe when his paycheck depends on it being true.
Time123 (653992) — 5/13/2020 @ 6:59 amWe know that the President refuses to wear a mask but what about tin foil hats?
From Politico…. Donald Trump on Tuesday explicitly suggested MSNBC’s Joe Scarborough had committed murder, prompting the morning cable news host to urge the president in real time to stop watching his program “for the sake of America. “When will they open a Cold Case on the Psycho Joe Scarborough matter in Florida. Did he get away with murder? Some people think so,” Trump wrote.
The facts prove otherwise, of course, but the President is right about one thing…. after his mad tweet, “some people think” it’s true.
noel (4d3313) — 5/13/2020 @ 7:01 amJust imagine. Correction… please note…. the President of the United States is spreading a blatantly false conspiracy theory about murder, in retaliation for Joe Scarborough’s criticism of him.
Come on now….this is positive proof that the President is bonkers. Let’s all agree on that one little thing. Please.
noel (4d3313) — 5/13/2020 @ 7:10 amAt what age did his father have his onset of Alzheimer’s?
nk (1d9030) — 5/13/2020 @ 7:27 amDuh Donald has been nuts for decades. This is nothing new.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/13/2020 @ 7:51 amThe attorney who claims he isn’t an ambulance chaser wrote:
Kishnevi got it right in comment 172.
Now, to be fair, if I had believed my vote actually mattered, and that it was a tight contest between Mr Trump and Mrs Clinton, I would have voted for Mr Trump. As it was, I believed all of the polls and articles which said that Mr Trump had no plausible path to 270 electoral votes, and noted that Pennsylvania, where I lived in 2016, hadn’t been carried by a Republican since 1988, I was sure that Mrs Clinton would carry the Keystone State. I assumed my vote for Mr Trump would be meaningless, while a vote for Gary Johnson would count as a protest vote. Sadly, Mr Johnson wasn’t great shakes as a candidate either, but he was what was available.
I actually turned off the television early, around 7:30, since I knew, just like everyone else did, that Mrs Clinton was the certain winner. Imagine my surprise when I turned it back on, around 10:30!
As it happens, my vote for President has not counted since 1988, the last time I voted for the candidate who captured my state’s electoral votes.
Actually, acting through Attorney General William Barr, he has . . . sort of. Alas! Mr Barr is not doing so aggressively enough.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/13/2020 @ 12:06 pmSo sorry about the error.
Where’s that list?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/13/2020 @ 12:13 pmOur Windy City barrister wrote:
Which is certainly better than a Pyrrhic loss!
The Washington Post reported that over 100,000 small business firms have already gone under, never to return. We have, in effect, traded fighting deaths from COVID-19 for deaths from poverty and homelessness, which are certain to occur as we suffer through a protracted, deep recession. Is the guy who dies from COVID-19 somehow deader than the kid who freezes to death because his family became homeless?
Fed Chairman Jerome Powell said that “Almost 40% of those in households making less than $40,000 a year lost a job in March.” Those are the people who were living from paycheck-to-paycheck, and who now don’t know how they are going to keep a roof over their heads or food on the table. Some of these people are going to die from this, more probably their minor children than the adults who lost their jobs.
There are a lot of attorneys commenting here, but I’m not one of them. My family is in decent shape even in this feces storm, and I’m retired now, but though I’m retired from a plant manager’s position, I was as blue a collar as blue collar can get. The people who are losing their jobs? I know them! I know people who’ve had to scrape and scrap for everything they had, people for whom a $500 unexpected expense was a major tragedy in their lives. And they are being sacrificed, sacrificed by politicians who have always had money, always come from upper-middle-class backgrounds, politicians who do not have to, and have never had to, wonder from where their next meal would come.
It’s just so easy to say that we’ve all got to stay home, we’ve all got to sacrifice, for the good of everyone else, when you haven’t lost your job, when you aren’t the one who has to worry about losing your home, when you aren’t the one who has to sacrifice all that much.
But there are other people, people whose lives are nailed to their spines, people about whom so many Americans know nothing and want to know nothing. I know those people, I have shoveled out under conveyor belts with them, I have worked out in the sun in August and the snow in January with them, so that we could all get our jobs done, make a living, and support our families.
Mao Tse-tung (yes, I know, I know, it’s s’posed to be Mao Zedong now) used the Cultural revolution to send Chinese urban elites to the countryside, to learn about the conditions of China’s rural poor. Yes, it was done with terrible brutality, but at least in one way, the concept allowed the city dwellers to learn about how the other 80% live and struggle. Too many Americans have no idea what that’s like.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/13/2020 @ 12:34 pmWhere’s that list?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/13/2020 @ 12:47 pm>but it seems a little disingenuous to make the comparison given the arguments for masks concerning “public safety.”
not at all.
you are more interested in agitating against a measure which is clearly being pushed in order to protect people from a deadly illness (and which is clearly beneficial in protecting people from a deadly illness) than you are interested in agitating against an equally intrusive measure that has no such protective-from-deadly-illness effect.
in other words, you appear to be more comfortable with having your liberties infringed in order to protect other people’s aesthetic or moral sensibilities than you are with having your liberties infringed in order to protect other people from the risk that you’ll kill them.
it’s very hard to avoid the conclusion that you just don’t care about the risk you might pose to the health of the people around you.
aphrael (7962af) — 5/13/2020 @ 1:06 pm>The people who are losing their jobs? I know them!
So do I. A large percentage of my close friends work in the restaurant industry, including people who *own restaurants*. Everyone I know in that industry is hurting economically.
Ironically, though, every one of them also supports the lock downs as necessary to protect public health.
aphrael (7962af) — 5/13/2020 @ 1:09 pmI followed the link DanaInK-Y provided, and learned something interesting about him.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/13/2020 @ 1:47 pmYou were not here when Rev Hoagie was a frequent commenter here….
The economic argument against the shutdown orders assumes the economic pain would be a lot less without them. That’s highly disputable, and contrary to what was happening before those orders kicked in.
Kishnevi (594ffc) — 5/13/2020 @ 2:05 pmFrom where I sit, it’s always been snitching for them, not snitching for us. This guys constituency in Mount Greenwood would enjoy their CPD experience so much more if people snitched.
urbanleftbehind (4ff9ea) — 5/13/2020 @ 2:16 pmThe Sun Times loves their paywall. It kicked in just when I got to the most interesting part.
Kishnevi (594ffc) — 5/13/2020 @ 2:18 pmThe Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/13/2020 @ 12:34 pm
Neither Trump or the Democrats understand that.
Unpaid debt is accumulating – debt that was used to pay current expenses. It’s not like 1918 when the only fixed payment people had to make was rent, and mortgages were rare and partial. And if rent was not paid and people had to move, they could easily rent some other place. And housing also cost less. (Food was the chief expense) Problems did not carry over past the shutdowns and business could be interrupted and resume.
Starvation isn’t a problem unless food production goes down – it really isn’t – too much help is available – but it is not a recession – it’s instant Great Depression.
Unpaid installement-like debt has created many problems.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 5/13/2020 @ 2:52 pmMr nevi wrote:
Hah! The Philadelphia Inquirer and the Lexington Herald-Leader both said that they were taking down their paywalls on coronavirus news, ’cause it was just so gosh darned important, but that lasted maybe a week. The Inquirer supposedly gives readers five free articles a month before the paywall descends — The New York Times allows ten — but maybe I’ve checked too often, ’cause it seems as though the Inquirer’s paywall descends the first day of the month.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/13/2020 @ 3:19 pmMr Finkelman wrote:
I think that they do; they just don’t know what to do about it.
Several Governors have issued Do Not Evict orders, which strikes me as the taking of a person’s property without due process of law, but what that does is to transfer the losses from one set of small business owners to another. I guess it’s easy, since so many people see landlords as the personification of Snidely Whiplash, but there are about 8 million small landlords in the United States, and they typically own between one to ten properties. These account for about half the rental properties in the nation, and house about 48 million renters. They’re still responsible for building maintenance, so if the pipes fail or the roof leaks, the landlords have to fix it, even though they might not having any rent coming in.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/13/2020 @ 3:27 pmFull disclosure: we bought our current abode in 2014, before I retired, and rented it out until my retirement, so I have some small experience in being a landlord. Being 600 miles away, I had to hire a rental agent. With various expenses, we never netted more than $2400 in a year from the rent, even though the property was never without a renter, and the renter never missed a payment.
We no longer own any rental property.
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/13/2020 @ 3:33 pmStill awaiting that list.
Should we just end the suspense and have you admit you can’t step up?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/13/2020 @ 3:36 pmThe Wisconsin Supreme Court today invalidated the ‘Stay-at-home’ order attributed to Secretary-designate Andrea Palm:
The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/13/2020 @ 4:27 pmSo?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/13/2020 @ 5:50 pm194. That is assuming that I am risking the health of the people around me. I’m not. It’s not that I don’t believe I am; it’s that I’m not.
182. You think that it’s a “lie” that my rights are being trampled upon? There you go again. You keep using that word…
Gryph (08c844) — 5/13/2020 @ 6:05 pmUnless you’ve been tested, then you can’t know that, so that’s a lie.
It’s a lie because you are intentionally saying something that is unrelated to facts, i.e. a lie. You are a liar, but not just a liar, 4 of the other 5 attributes of a Gryph are not liar, but liar is definitely one.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/13/2020 @ 6:16 pmSure, Gryph. You just go on with your fringe nutter’s one-note samba.
Your god-given rights are just fine. It’s your wiring that’s screwy.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/13/2020 @ 6:18 pm205. The question is: Why did they not follow the procedures laid out in law? Why did the Governor of Wisconsin take short cuts?
All default powers belong to the state, yes, but all default powers of a state belong to the legislature (except when it is taken away from them and assigned somewhere else or forbidden by either the state or federal constitution.)
The legislature can delegate but they delegated this in a specific way. The reason for the procedural restrictions is pretty obvious: That the emergency orders should be more thought out, and not lightly issued.
And there may be some limitations in the law as to what the actual emergency orders can do – they are maybe supposed to truly do something significant to limit the disaster, and be reasonable, (which means also they are subject to judicial review. And the Governor should try not to get there.)
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 5/14/2020 @ 6:38 am208. 209.
Yeah, you guys GFY. I know we’re talking right past each other and I’m beginning to wonder why I even bother.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/14/2020 @ 6:49 amand I’m beginning to wonder why I even bother.
I know why. You are affirming your existence in an unimaginably vast infinity of time and space. Nothing wrong with that.
nk (1d9030) — 5/14/2020 @ 6:57 am…and I’m beginning to wonder why I even bother.
Just NOW…!!! I’ve wondered when you were going to grow up for many weeks.
No indications yet, with your childish GFY and nuttery.
So don’t bother. All you’ve done is provide a sterling demonstration of fringe “thinking”.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/14/2020 @ 7:08 amGryph (08c844) — 5/13/2020 @ 6:05 pm
You are not unless you are actually infected and also contagious.
The argument is that you can be contagious and not know it, based on “asymptomatic” people having apparently spread the coronavirus – there is a question if infection really has no signs.
It is possible to argue that, when you are considering a very very large group of people, someone among them may infectious. But the chances in an individual case are very low – maybe something like 1 in 500, which, for a individual, can be ignored. You can’t relate that down to the level of the individual so as to say going around without a mask endangers people.
Now there are some further points to consider:
1. Even if a person is unknowingly contagious, and doesn’t feel bad or cough, there is a question whether the amount of virus that might get to someone else might, for the vast majority of people, actually more amount to a vaccination rather than a serious disease, cutting the probability of harming anyone even further.
But then one of the people given a mild or even noticeable disease might possibly give a serious disease to a third person, or someone give someone else a serious disease after several successive transmissions. Now this may be wrong.
2. While masks don’t eliminate all viral particles from getting out into the air, and how effective they are depends on how they are worn, a mask could be the difference between giving someone a “vaccination” and giving someone a life-threatening disease, usually in a situation where someone knows they are probably emitting viral particles.
It could also maybe protect the wearer in the same way. (keeping out the biggest and worst droplets)
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 5/14/2020 @ 7:14 am212. Yeah, but there are other ways I could be doing that aside from arguing with idiots.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/14/2020 @ 7:14 am* But then one of the people given a mild or even [un] noticeable disease…
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 5/14/2020 @ 7:16 am214. All true, Sammy. But it also comes back to the fact that even if you have the virus, even if you are contagious, the risks of getting sick — period, full-stop — are vanishingly small. A virus can do two things at once, like be highly contagious and unlikely to kill a whole lot of people. Yeah, I know. My definition of “a whole lot of people” differs from some here. That is precisely what I see as cowardice, but as always, YMMV.
Gryph (08c844) — 5/14/2020 @ 7:16 amA virus can do two things at once, like be highly contagious and unlikely to kill a whole lot of people.
A small…teeny, tiny…concession to reality. Baby steps…
Just days ago it was not deadly OR debilitating.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/14/2020 @ 7:30 amBreaking-
FBI serves warrant on senator in investigation of stock sales linked to coronavirus
Federal agents seized a cellphone belonging to a prominent Republican senator on Wednesday night as part of the Justice Department’s investigation into controversial stock trades he made as the novel coronavirus first struck the U.S., a law enforcement official said.
Sen. Richard Burr of North Carolina, the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, turned over his phone to agents after they served a search warrant on the lawmaker at his residence in the Washington area, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss a law enforcement action.
The seizure represents a significant escalation in the investigation into whether Burr violated a law preventing members of Congress from trading on insider information they have gleaned from their official work.
……
Such a warrant being served on a sitting U.S. senator would require approval from the highest ranks of the Justice Department and is a step that would not be taken lightly. Kerri Kupec, a Justice Department spokeswoman, declined to comment.
A second law enforcement official said FBI agents served a warrant in recent days on Apple to obtain information from Burr’s iCloud account and said agents used data obtained from the California-based company as part of the evidence used to obtain the warrant for the senator’s phone.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/14/2020 @ 9:26 am…..
UPDATE-
Burr steps aside as Intelligence Committee chair after FBI serves warrant in stock inquiry
Well, 85k people in 2 months in the US are not vanishingly small, the number 1 killer in America.
A virus may be both, Covid-19 is not. So…Gryph lies, shocker.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/14/2020 @ 9:40 amAs Unemployment Soars, Lawmakers Push to Cover Workers’ Wages
One of the most progressive lawmakers in the House and one of the most conservative in the Senate, staring down a pandemic-driven unemployment rate at its highest level since the Great Depression, have come to the same conclusion: It’s time for the federal government to cover workers’ salaries.
As Congress prepares to wage a new battle over how to best aid workers and businesses devastated by the coronavirus crisis, Representative Pramila Jayapal, Democrat of Washington and a leader of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, and Senator Josh Hawley, Republican of Missouri and a rising conservative star, are both making the case to their party’s leaders that guaranteed income programs should be part of the federal relief effort.
…….
Ms. Jayapal’s bill would cover salaries and benefits for workers making up to $90,000 for as long as six months — allowing businesses to rehire furloughed and laid-off employees — and distribute grants to businesses to cover operating costs. It would cost $654 billion over six months and benefit more than 36 million workers, according to an analysis by Moody’s prepared for her office……
……
…… Representative Steve Scalise of Louisiana, the minority whip, called guaranteed income a “radical, socialist idea”….
…… Mr. Hawley, the Missouri Republican, has introduced a similar proposal mirroring the British government’s plan that would cover 80 percent of employers’ payroll costs up to the median wage, about $49,000 a year. That proposal appeared to gain traction on Thursday, when Senator Cory Gardner, Republican of Colorado, one of the most politically endangered in the conference, threw his support behind the measure.
Another bill that Mr. Hawley introduced in March goes further, providing families and single parents making less than $100,000 with a monthly check for the duration of the crisis.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/14/2020 @ 10:28 am……
Trump’s marks for handling COVID-19 outbreak decline — CBS News poll
Americans continue to say they trust medical professionals for virus information, but Republicans also rank President Trump about as highly among their trusted sources, even as others give him his lowest marks to date for handling the outbreak.
And Dr. Anthony Fauci is trusted by most and viewed favorably by a three-to-one margin, but he now draws split opinions among Republicans, driven by increasingly negative views from conservatives.
Views of President Trump’s handling of the outbreak continue to drop from March and are now the lowest he has received. Today, 43% say he’s doing a good job, 5 points lower than three weeks ago and 10 points lower than in March.
This decline has most recently been driven by political independents, among whom a four-in-10 plurality now say Trump is doing a “very” bad job, as compared to a “somewhat” bad job, and that description has increased from a few weeks ago.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 5/14/2020 @ 10:34 am…….
Burr has always been a clown, and now we see he’s a corrupt clown. I think the FBI/Deep state was just waiting for D Governor to take over NC and then they’d drive Burr out. Certainly, this clown has never cared about pushing any conservative policy. His Goal seems to have been to line his pockets with big donor cash and cozy up to the D’s – after all he’ll be lobbying his Democrat Buddies when he leaves the Senate.
Why they South has so many duds and crooks in the Senate is a mystery. Little Bob corker took off, and now Lamar! is right behind him. Burr probably won’t last till the end of the year.
rcocean (846d30) — 5/14/2020 @ 10:41 am@233, Now you’re blaming the deep state for Burr’s insider trading? Man you really are obsessed with conspiracy theories.
Time123 (653992) — 5/14/2020 @ 10:48 amEverything not T-rump’s rump is the Deep State to some…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/14/2020 @ 10:55 am217 Gryph (08c844) — 5/14/2020 @ 7:16 am replying to 214 (and 216 errata correction)
Well, it seems to be about 1% to 5%. I mean seriously sick. Let’s see, 20% of New York City residents have antibodies
A virus can do two things at once, like be highly contagious and unlikely to kill a whole lot of people. Yeah, I know. My definition of “a whole lot of people” differs from some here. That is precisely what I see as cowardice, but as always, YMMV.
Sammy Finkelman (20d02d) — 5/14/2020 @ 5:57 pmSorry, something incomplete sent.
Sammy Finkelman (20d02d) — 5/14/2020 @ 5:58 pmThere are different kinds of masks. A cloth mask doesn’t need to fit.
They tested out 4 methods of cleaning N95 masks. The best is hydrogen peroxide vapor and most hospitals have such as system. Masks can be cleaned any number of times using that.
Next is putting it in an oven (dry heat) It would be available nearly anywhere. Masks could only be cleaned twice. They only tested up to 3 times. Third is ultraviolet light. Or maybe second. UV light is dangerous for people (but someone has now developed different UB lights 0 different or limited frequency? – that kills viruses and bacteria but does not damage human tissue – for disinfecting subway cars. Not in the article below)
Ethyl alcohol caused the material to wear away and can only be used to clean once.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/16/health/n95-masks-decontaminated-coronavirus.html
Sammy Finkelman (20d02d) — 5/15/2020 @ 4:26 pm